TRIGGERnometry - Dan Hardy OPENS UP About Fighting, UFC Beef and Power Slap

00:00:00.760 Before the GSP fight, like, I would make sure I paid everybody back any money I owed.

00:00:05.980 If I borrowed a book or a CD or whatever, I'd make sure they were returned.

00:00:09.540 You know, I'd make sure that everything was taken care of because that 25 minutes is my

00:00:14.080 last 25 minutes.

00:00:15.920 And it has to be.

00:00:17.820 Because otherwise I'm not going to compete to my potential if I'm not prepared to give

00:00:21.080 everything.

00:00:22.080 It's war.

00:00:23.080 It can't be anything other.

00:00:24.080 If you treat it like a sport, you're going to lose every time.

00:00:26.600 What do you make about slap?

00:00:28.080 I'm sort of like going, wait, like, I understand people hitting each other and being able to

00:00:31.920 defend each other, but this is just people hitting each other just with no protection.

00:00:38.180 Is that really a sport?

00:00:39.540 Like, what do you make of it?

00:00:41.540 It's dangerous.

00:00:42.540 It's very, very dangerous.

00:00:44.480 But now, again, I feel like Dana feels like he's untouchable because they are ramming the

00:00:49.080 power slap league down our throats. 1.00

00:00:51.080 So it's a lining, basically, two guys just taking three swings at one another.

00:00:55.980 Like, it's just, it's CTE for money.

00:00:58.440 Like, they're trading brain cells for cash.

00:01:10.080 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:12.920 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:14.160 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:01:15.420 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:20.720 Our terrific guest today is a former UFC title contender, MMA commentator, analyst, and now

00:01:26.080 fellow YouTuber with his channel, Full Reptile, Dan Hardy.

00:01:29.040 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:29.980 Thank you very much, guys.

00:01:30.820 Thank you.

00:01:31.220 Mate, it's so great to have you on.

00:01:32.440 I'm a big fan of your analysis.

00:01:35.040 I watch all your breakdowns of the UFC fights.

00:01:38.060 As I said to you, this is a bit of a different tag for us because we're normally talking about

00:01:42.360 culture and politics and stuff, but we're super excited to have you.

00:01:45.640 Some of our audience won't know who you are.

00:01:48.180 What's your journey through life?

00:01:49.340 Like, how are you here?

00:01:50.280 What have you been up to?

00:01:52.840 I mean, basically martial arts all the way through.

00:01:55.420 I started when I was six, and I just, I never stopped.

00:01:58.860 Started with Taekwondo, trained all the way through into my teens.

00:02:02.440 My grandfather started when I was in my early teens, so I was able to train with him for

00:02:05.900 a few years, and that kind of kept me focused in those years when you kind of wander off and

00:02:10.160 start getting distracted with things.

00:02:11.780 And then I did art college and then university for a couple of years doing contemporary art,

00:02:17.820 and it was fun.

00:02:19.260 It was a lot of time to kind of think about myself and where I wanted to go with my life,

00:02:23.240 but ultimately I wanted to do martial arts.

00:02:25.320 But the UFC was a very new thing back then, and there wasn't really an option for me to

00:02:29.100 be a professional in any way other than being a coach.

00:02:32.440 So I kind of, I felt like that was my destiny.

00:02:34.860 I was going to be a martial arts teacher.

00:02:36.140 Um, and then as the UFC started to grow, I started to compete in amateur events and

00:02:41.660 Muay Thai and whatever else I could find that was, you know, combat sports, basically anything

00:02:46.420 that I could get a fight, I would do it.

00:02:48.620 Um, and that, that led me to professional MMA.

00:02:50.860 Uh, I made my, my pro debut in 2004.

00:02:54.100 Um, I had a busy first year.

00:02:56.000 I think I had 14 fights in my first year.

00:02:57.840 Wow.

00:02:58.360 Yeah.

00:02:58.720 I was, I was quite busy in the early years because I, I always found it easier to stay

00:03:02.460 in shape than get in shape.

00:03:03.720 Yeah.

00:03:04.120 You know, so sometimes I'd go to an event and there'd be a spare opponent.

00:03:06.920 So I'd have a couple of fights on the same night, you know, just to get more experience.

00:03:10.520 And I, and I moved through the UK scene pretty quickly.

00:03:13.660 Um, then I signed with the UFC, made my debut in 2008.

00:03:17.600 Um, and I was with the UFC for, well, four, five years as a, as a, as a competitor, had 10

00:03:23.240 fights, managed to fight for the world title, as you said, George St-Pierre.

00:03:26.840 One of the, I mean, you fought one of the best fighters in the history of the UFC, right?

00:03:30.720 And it felt like it.

00:03:31.700 Yeah.

00:03:32.060 It really did.

00:03:32.740 I mean, it was a long 25 minutes of me questioning where my life was going to go after this point.

00:03:38.100 If I'm honest, he was very, very good, very slick, great, great conditioning.

00:03:42.500 Uh, you know, just a very smart individual, very dedicated to his sport.

00:03:45.580 It was an honor to be able to fight him.

00:03:46.980 Um, but then after that, it all kind of fell apart.

00:03:49.380 I came back to, uh, London, fought the O2 arena and got knocked out in the first round.

00:03:54.340 That was not very pleasant.

00:03:56.040 Um, it's still kind of funny to think about it now, you know, you, you know, desensitize

00:03:59.900 yourself to it, but it was a big setback at the time because I felt like I was going to

00:04:03.400 be back on the title road pretty quickly.

00:04:05.680 And then I fought a giant next Anthony Johnson lost to him by decision.

00:04:10.320 And then I just threw the next fights away, just being reckless.

00:04:13.680 So I kind of felt like I'd gone four wins into my professional UFC career and then four

00:04:18.760 losses.

00:04:19.300 And I thought that was going to be it for me.

00:04:21.720 Um, unfortunately the owner at the time, Lorenzo Fratita said that he was going to keep me

00:04:25.320 around.

00:04:25.660 So I got, got two more fights, one than both.

00:04:28.940 Um, and then I was, I was sidelined with a, a, a medical concern.

00:04:32.620 You could say it was, uh, um, an, an irregular heartbeat, but it was, I mean, it never caused

00:04:38.400 me any problems.

00:04:39.060 It, it stopped me competing for a number of years, which was frustrating, but it also allowed

00:04:43.400 me to kind of sidestep into commentary.

00:04:45.540 And that's really where I probably have found my skill, which is analysis.

00:04:49.300 I loved fighting, but it, it, it was always more difficult for me than my teammates.

00:04:53.380 They were always better athletes or, you know, more dedicated, more skilled, more focused,

00:04:58.560 whatever it was.

00:04:59.300 And I always struggled.

00:05:00.480 Whereas because I had to solve problems with my brain all the time, it, it kind of, it kind

00:05:05.380 of prepared me for a job as an analyst.

00:05:07.160 So then I commentated for the UFC for a number of years, parted ways with them now due to various

00:05:12.600 different political reasons.

00:05:14.820 Um, and now I've just signed a contract with a new organization, which I'll be, I'll be doing

00:05:18.960 a lot of work with the PFL.

00:05:20.740 So, uh, yeah.

00:05:21.580 And we're also in training camp.

00:05:22.660 My wife's fighting UFC London in March.

00:05:24.400 So that's, that's keeping us busy.

00:05:25.700 Got a couple of gyms up in the Midlands, lots of things going on, but all MMA focused.

00:05:31.120 Yeah.

00:05:31.360 Yeah.

00:05:31.640 And, uh, one of the things that you raised, I mean, we'll talk about all sorts of different

00:05:34.860 stuff, but one thing I always want to know when you see these guys squaring off and they're

00:05:40.440 both, I'm going to knock you and no, I'm going to, and you're going, I mean, one of them

00:05:43.480 probably thinks the other one is better, don't they?

00:05:45.680 Like when you're fighting Georges St-Pierre, is there a bit of like, you're walking into 0.99

00:05:49.340 it knowing you're going to get your ass kicked a little bit? 0.98

00:05:51.480 Is that, does, does that happen? 1.00

00:05:52.940 Yes, absolutely.

00:05:53.720 It does.

00:05:54.220 Absolutely.

00:05:54.700 Because, you know, the thing is sometimes when you, when you're facing someone that is,

00:05:58.120 I mean, he, he'd been the champion for a number of years, so he'd already positioned

00:06:01.480 himself.

00:06:02.040 He'd got, you know, good money coming in his direction.

00:06:05.020 He was able to set up his training camps.

00:06:06.720 Well, he had a good team of people around him.

00:06:08.600 And I mean, I, I just felt like I didn't have the resources or the people around me to really

00:06:12.980 be competitive, but of course I'm not going to turn the opportunity down.

00:06:17.380 So it was, it was just about doing my best.

00:06:19.460 And the reality is I'm a, I'm a striker.

00:06:21.300 So in the back of my head, I can always land that one shot that's going to put my, put

00:06:25.060 my way.

00:06:25.980 So I did feel like at one point in the fight, I might be able to connect with something and

00:06:29.820 knock him out, but he's just such a good wrestler.

00:06:31.960 He's, you know, so smart and he was very respectful of my striking, which means he didn't really

00:06:36.400 let me do any of it.

00:06:37.320 Um, so it was a, it was a frustrating fight, but it was, it was a big learning experience

00:06:42.640 for me as well.

00:06:43.540 And, you know, and I guess the bigger challenge was going forward and picking up several more

00:06:48.540 losses and trying to stay on track.

00:06:50.520 That's the biggest problem for the biggest difficulty I think as a professional, because

00:06:54.540 of course, everything is about winning and you, you, you build your identity around the

00:06:59.140 person that people see in the, in the cage. 0.98

00:07:01.240 And if that person keeps getting their ass kicked, it's, you know, not quite, don't have 0.98

00:07:05.680 the same kind of presence as you would like. 0.99

00:07:08.000 Dan, I interviewed Dillian White a few years ago and I asked him, what's the most terrifying

00:07:12.980 thing for an opponent to have over you?

00:07:15.240 Is it a devastating left hook?

00:07:17.080 Is it combinations?

00:07:18.400 Is it the fact that they're just going to keep on going?

00:07:21.040 And he said, no, it's looking over to your opponent at the other corner of the ring and 0.97

00:07:25.480 realising that he's crazy.

00:07:27.620 Is that true?

00:07:29.440 Yeah, yeah, absolutely true.

00:07:31.100 Yeah, absolutely true.

00:07:33.300 And, you know, sometimes, sometimes fighters are smart enough to be able to realise this

00:07:37.640 advantage and create the advantage for themselves.

00:07:40.620 Like, I will always smile.

00:07:42.340 I'll always smile in the corner.

00:07:43.820 I'll always, you know, get punched in the face and grin at my opponent. 0.87

00:07:47.020 I want them to feel like I'm crazy. 0.88

00:07:49.000 I want them to feel like they can push and push and push.

00:07:51.500 And at no point I'm going to, I'm going to decide to quit.

00:07:54.800 And I think that's where, that's the crazy part is knowing you've got somebody in front

00:07:58.460 of you that's not going to quit.

00:07:59.480 You're going to have to put them away because that's easier said than done.

00:08:03.540 You know, sometimes you can put somebody away easier if they've already checked out of

00:08:06.620 the fight themselves.

00:08:07.640 If you've pushed them and you've beat them up and you've worn them out, a lot of people,

00:08:11.540 a lot of people will just decide they don't want to be there anymore.

00:08:14.300 And then you get the occasional crazy person that will not go away.

00:08:18.040 And I tried to model myself on that person.

00:08:20.740 I wasn't always, but I hope I left that lasting impression with at least some of my opponents.

00:08:25.940 And Dan, most people, I love UFC.

00:08:29.720 I love boxing.

00:08:30.780 I've loved boxing since I was eight years old, watching Mike Tyson.

00:08:35.160 That was my era growing up.

00:08:37.040 But I never wanted to be a fighter.

00:08:39.800 Most people, when you say to them, would you like to be a boxer or a UFC fighter?

00:08:44.600 Even if they love the sport, they'd be like, no way.

00:08:46.880 What is it that makes someone want to get in that ring and fight?

00:08:50.520 I mean, I think it's just a particular character type.

00:08:55.620 I think some people are warlike in their hearts and in their minds anyway.

00:09:00.060 And I feel like, I mean, certainly for me, competition, fight competition is the only time that my brain just goes silent.

00:09:06.760 It's the only time I am solely focused on one thing.

00:09:10.400 All of the rest of the time, I'm thinking about a variety of different things.

00:09:13.620 But that peace and quiet that I get when I'm in competition, and it sounds odd because it's a very chaotic environment.

00:09:19.860 But I think it's because it's so chaotic, I'm drawn to it because it's kind of peaceful in a way, because it gives me a single focus.

00:09:28.460 I mean, that for me was the biggest thing.

00:09:31.100 And the other thing as well is, I mean, I was never much of a team sport player because I don't like to have to rely on other people to pull their weight.

00:09:37.540 I played rugby and football, and I was never very good at them, but neither were my teammates.

00:09:42.720 And that for me as well, you know what I mean?

00:09:44.960 So I preferred something where the pressure's on me, you know, the weight's on my shoulders to perform.

00:09:51.220 And, you know, there's an adrenaline rush to it.

00:09:53.020 It's a very, very addictive adrenaline rush.

00:09:55.160 You know, like, of course, as a kid, I'd get into a few fights and growing up, going to Rock City and Nottingham, of course, you're getting a few fights there as well.

00:10:02.260 And you're like that adrenaline, but it's the thing that always disconnected me from that is the consequence, right?

00:10:08.980 You can't get into a fight and feel like you can just let go.

00:10:12.100 I always had to feel like I was holding back.

00:10:14.720 And when you go into a fight and I'm standing across someone that is prepared to beat me, like, their goal is to take me out.

00:10:22.720 It allows me to take the pressure off myself and just go at them with full force.

00:10:26.480 And that's quite a unique experience, something I've not experienced in any other format or capacity.

00:10:33.920 Because Tyson spoke about it in his documentary.

00:10:36.380 There's this really powerful montage where he goes, before I go into the ring, I'm terrified.

00:10:40.920 My hands are shaking.

00:10:41.980 I don't know.

00:10:42.400 I can't speak.

00:10:43.460 I just want to run away.

00:10:44.800 I don't know what to say.

00:10:46.320 My hands are shaking.

00:10:47.560 My back's sweating.

00:10:49.340 And then I step into the ring and I become a god.

00:10:51.540 And do you kind of feel that, that you just walk, the moment you cross that octagon, you become a different person.

00:11:00.200 You tap into something else.

00:11:01.960 Yes.

00:11:02.540 Yeah, absolutely.

00:11:03.320 And I think it was a bit more obvious for me because especially people that know me away from competition, you know, I'm relatively quiet.

00:11:10.400 I like my own space.

00:11:11.460 I'm not very much of a public person.

00:11:13.000 I don't really like to be out amongst people.

00:11:16.140 But then you see my character when I'm competing in the UFC and people would assume I'm an extrovert.

00:11:20.600 I've got red hair, come out with a bandana, you know, interacting with Bruce Buffer, you know, staring at my opponents.

00:11:27.800 And that definitely is a part of who I am.

00:11:29.980 But it's like I've found a facet of my personality and I've turned the volume right up on it. 0.99

00:11:34.240 And that person is a maniac.

00:11:37.720 And the thing is, I know that that's within me. 0.98

00:11:39.560 Like I feel it sometimes when I'm on the M25 and I'm like, there's the maniac.

00:11:43.240 Calm down, calm down.

00:11:44.180 But in that area, in that situation, I can just, I can let it breathe.

00:11:49.640 And it's quite a relief to be in.

00:11:52.840 And of course, you know, everything that Tyson said is correct.

00:11:56.820 You know, the walkout, there's fear.

00:11:59.460 You know, you're terrified.

00:12:00.740 You're anxious because, of course, you know, there's the possibility of getting injured.

00:12:04.380 But there's the possibility of losing.

00:12:05.960 That's the thing that I was most afraid of.

00:12:08.020 Not performing, not stepping in there and doing everything that I knew I was capable of.

00:12:12.520 And that really was the main holdup for me.

00:12:16.600 Like the fight itself is, you roll the dice and you see what happens.

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00:12:50.900 It's interesting how, I mean, just to be very clear, because people will misrepresent this,

00:12:56.580 but I was going to say how similar what you're describing is to the process of doing stand-up.

00:13:00.420 Because, and people will come up to you and go, oh, you're so brave.

00:13:03.360 I mean, I think you're a lot braver.

00:13:04.620 Oh, no, I would disagree.

00:13:06.860 I would disagree.

00:13:07.880 Because I know what's expected of me.

00:13:09.800 If I'm stepping into a fight, all I have to do is throw down.

00:13:12.580 When you walk onto a stage, people expect you to make them laugh.

00:13:15.360 And that is a very, very, very tall task.

00:13:17.980 As we've discovered.

00:13:20.660 I've always thought to myself, like, of all the things that I would take on,

00:13:23.980 because I was in bands, I've performed on stage.

00:13:26.400 Of course, I've hosted Q&As, et cetera.

00:13:30.420 You know, I've been on stage in front of a decent crowd.

00:13:32.720 But to have the expectation of stepping onto a stage where people are going, all right, dude, make me laugh.

00:13:38.200 That would be an immense amount of pressure that is very, very different to what I would ever experience in a fight.

00:13:43.840 I admire you guys for what you do, honestly.

00:13:46.200 Well, the experience is similar because before you go on, it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, really.

00:13:51.300 There's still an element of nerves.

00:13:53.040 Or particularly if you're in a new room or in a new venue or you're doing new material.

00:13:57.640 I mean, that's the scariest thing, really.

00:13:59.080 But the process is the same.

00:14:01.540 But, you know, I was going to ask you because, I mean, one of the things that has obviously happened in our lifetime is mixed martial arts has gone from a niche sport that was only enjoyed and watched by people who were really, really into fighting, probably doing it themselves, probably going to it when working out at gyms.

00:14:20.320 So now it's a mass sport.

00:14:21.940 And am I right in saying that is basically the UFC has done that?

00:14:25.200 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:14:26.020 Yeah, the UFC of, I mean, if it wasn't for the UFC, I probably wouldn't be sitting talking to you guys now.

00:14:31.600 I'd probably be teaching Taekwondo in a village hall in the Midlands somewhere.

00:14:36.080 You know, what the UFC did, Dana White and the Fratitas, they bought a product which was very, very risky at the time.

00:14:42.840 A couple of million dollars, you know, it was a very, very chaotic thing to try and find a TV placement for.

00:14:48.540 And, of course, you know, things have changed dramatically.

00:14:50.620 Now we have all kinds of things that are broadcast, the silly slap fighting and, you know, team MMA.

00:14:58.220 All these things would have been laughed at back in the day.

00:15:01.620 Like, just to have a regulated mixed martial arts event was an alien concept to us.

00:15:08.480 But because the UFC worked so hard, because they brought legitimacy to it, they brought the weight classes and the, you know,

00:15:14.360 it just, it allowed it to breathe a little bit.

00:15:18.760 It allowed it to find its foothold.

00:15:20.280 And as soon as the foothold was there, it grows.

00:15:22.420 It grows so quickly.

00:15:23.580 And it's still growing very, very quickly.

00:15:25.500 I mean, it's very impressive.

00:15:27.600 And I know you've had your issues with Dana White and maybe we'll talk about it a little bit.

00:15:30.800 But I'm so impressed with what the UFC has achieved in the time that I've been paying attention.

00:15:36.460 It's incredible what they've done.

00:15:37.800 And another thing, I don't know if you've thought about this, but I'd be curious to ask you this question.

00:15:43.380 Culturally, the world is getting softer, it feels like, all the time.

00:15:47.000 You know, you can't say this.

00:15:47.960 You can't make this joke.

00:15:48.920 Like, people are getting very sensitive. 0.98

00:15:50.860 And yet, at the same time, you see this absolutely brutal fucking sport skyrocketing at the same time. 0.95

00:15:56.980 And I can't help thinking there's some sort of connection between those two things. 0.95

00:16:00.340 Like, the softer people are being made, the more they look for an outlet that's, like, raw and hardcore.

00:16:06.620 Quite possibly.

00:16:08.040 I do think that we are kind of separating as a species.

00:16:11.460 I mean, the thing is, like, you know, you could say all kinds of stuff when I was a kid.

00:16:15.600 You know, people would say all kinds of things.

00:16:16.980 And it would just be kind of, oh, whatever, that's how they talk.

00:16:19.520 That's the language they use, et cetera.

00:16:21.140 But now everything is looked at under a microscope.

00:16:25.060 But then, back in the day, even boxing was considered to be quite, oh, hang on a minute.

00:16:29.340 I don't know if I want to watch boxing on mainstream TV.

00:16:32.380 Even though, you know, like, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, that was our generation, right?

00:16:36.420 They were incredible.

00:16:37.940 And I just don't feel like boxing was ever kind of, it never bridged that gap to me.

00:16:44.280 Like, you either loved boxing or you hated it.

00:16:47.080 Whereas mixed martial arts, people kind of dip in.

00:16:49.260 They're kind of intrigued because it's such a broad style.

00:16:53.980 You know, you can grapple, you can wrestle, you can strike.

00:16:56.900 It's quite unknown.

00:16:57.820 We have big characters, the likes of Conor McGregor and Ronda.

00:17:00.900 Obviously, she did wonders for mixed martial arts. 1.00

00:17:04.380 But I do feel like, I mean, you know, video games and movies, everything's desensitizing us to violence.

00:17:10.080 Like, you know, we watch movies now and we're just not, we don't even register what we're seeing.

00:17:14.980 It's so realistic.

00:17:16.560 And then, you know, obviously, like, the current war that's going on, like, we're watching it on social media.

00:17:21.960 That's never been done before.

00:17:23.260 And we're desensitized to stuff.

00:17:24.760 I see things all the time that if I'd have seen it as a kid, I would have been shocked.

00:17:28.520 But now it's just, it's a part of our environment.

00:17:31.120 But people are far more focused on what is being said now as opposed to what's being done.

00:17:35.460 And almost always what's being done is far, far worse.

00:17:38.440 Yeah, it's a really good point.

00:17:41.300 But the thing is with UFC is that I find it that much more brutal than boxing.

00:17:47.060 There are points at UFC where I'm just like, oh my word, I just, because it's too visceral.

00:17:52.720 But I never really get that with boxing, even if it's a big heavyweight match.

00:17:58.440 The thing is, for boxing, it's quite easy to watch boxing unless you're there.

00:18:03.380 If you're ringside watching two heavyweights punching one another, you feel that impact.

00:18:09.000 Like, it rattles through the arena.

00:18:10.880 And it's very similar to mixed martial arts.

00:18:12.700 I mean, we were at an event a little while ago, and there was a, it's the only time it's ever happened.

00:18:18.300 The fight was abandoned due to the excess blood on the canvas.

00:18:21.860 And it was a wild fight.

00:18:23.460 Nicholas Talby against Ross Houston on Cage Warriors.

00:18:26.180 And they beat the hell out of one another.

00:18:28.480 The whole canvas was just a mess of blood.

00:18:30.680 They couldn't even stand up because it was so slippy.

00:18:32.440 And I was commentating.

00:18:34.740 And you can literally smell the blood in the air.

00:18:37.100 And it's like the whole place gets taken over.

00:18:39.500 It feels like a battlefield.

00:18:41.280 But then at the same time, you've got these two guys that have got a mask of blood.

00:18:44.220 And they're sitting on top of the cage celebrating.

00:18:46.240 They've had such a good fight.

00:18:47.500 So it's, I think when you see people in those scenarios, you kind of empathize with them.

00:18:52.540 But then when you see how much they love it, you kind of go, oh, okay.

00:18:55.740 Like, it's kind of what you do.

00:18:57.320 I mean, people do all kinds of mad things to themselves now.

00:18:59.520 Surgeries and those kind of things.

00:19:00.820 I don't think there's anything wrong with stepping in there and testing yourself against another human being.

00:19:04.840 Especially when they've signed on the dotted line to do the same thing.

00:19:07.880 And it is very visceral.

00:19:09.280 But I also feel like it's the right environment for that.

00:19:13.320 I agree with you.

00:19:14.460 But the thing is, is when you see these types of fights and what's really interesting is then you find that you see former boxers, former UFC fighters, and they find it impossible to quit.

00:19:28.980 And the moment they quit, it seems for a lot of them, their life falls apart.

00:19:33.300 Like Kell Brook was in the papers recently taking cocaine.

00:19:36.680 I mean, a lot of fighters would have done that during their career as well, I imagine.

00:19:44.100 But why is it that that is so addictive?

00:19:47.660 Why is it that it's almost impossible to leave it behind?

00:19:52.040 Because I don't think anything replicates it.

00:19:54.000 You know, like Kell Brook is a fantastic boxer, but he's never going to get an adrenaline rush like he got walking out against Amir Khan, especially because of all the pressure that was on him for that fight.

00:20:03.320 So how do you go from that height of excitement to now I'm retired?

00:20:09.080 And then you kind of drift in because you've always identified as that person that everyone sees in the ring.

00:20:13.960 You take your gloves off and you put regular clothes on and you feel like a regular person.

00:20:17.940 And it's difficult to adjust to that, especially because you've got this fighter, this mentality within you, this, you know, warlike atmosphere that's in your own environment that you're always experiencing.

00:20:31.060 You can step into a ring and be yourself, but then all the rest of the time you have to kind of keep a lid on it.

00:20:36.100 I think that can be quite difficult.

00:20:37.520 People need that pressure release.

00:20:39.440 And a lot of the fighters that struggle, like we remember Frank Bruno going through really troubled times, like set up a marquee in his back garden and was sleeping in a boxing ring.

00:20:46.860 And it's the attachment to that environment that made him feel safe, made him feel himself.

00:20:51.840 And like I was in training camp for a fight, was it 2012?

00:20:56.320 Four weeks out from the fight, the doctors in Vegas told me I wasn't going to be able to compete unless I had a heart surgery.

00:21:01.240 And straight away I was like, I've been put in a situation where I can either say no to the doctors and try and figure out who I am outside of mixed martial arts or I can walk through this surgery and try and cling to the person that I am.

00:21:16.540 And my mum, I called her outside from outside the hospital and she said to me, you would have never stopped anyway.

00:21:24.380 Like when, what would have stopped you?

00:21:26.960 Like it would have taken something like, like a health concern or literally someone saying, no, you can't.

00:21:32.940 I would still fight now.

00:21:34.460 If someone sent me a contract with the right opponent, I would sign it.

00:21:37.020 I was supposed to box last year.

00:21:38.160 I was very disappointed that I didn't get the opportunity to.

00:21:40.920 But it's because I miss that adrenaline rush.

00:21:42.820 I miss that, that feeling of being able to get in there and just kind of let my reptilian brain breathe.

00:21:48.820 Well, this is the point that Rogan made when, when we were on his show and we were asking, we were talking to Francis, you know, he, he, he's interested and concerned about the brain injury stuff.

00:21:58.460 And you see it in rugby now, you know, former England World Cup winners who can't remember winning the medal and all of that, you know, terrible.

00:22:07.380 But Rogan was like, look, for some people, like standing on top of a cage with 10,000 people screaming as they've just knocked someone out, it's worth it to them.

00:22:17.640 Do you, are you of that view as well?

00:22:20.140 100%, 100%.

00:22:21.340 I mean, you know, if you, if you ask an Olympic athlete, if they, they will achieve everything they want to achieve, but they'll be dead by 30, most of them will still do it.

00:22:29.020 Because the, the, the goal overrides everything.

00:22:32.220 Like, and we're, we're as fighters and we're not thinking about what we're going to feel like when we're 50.

00:22:36.880 Like, I've just turned 40.

00:22:38.000 I wasn't thinking about how I would feel when I was 40, when I was 20.

00:22:42.340 I wasn't even thinking I'd make it to 40 at times because I was just so focused on do or die.

00:22:47.760 Like, and I, this always seems like an odd thing to say to people that, that maybe wouldn't have the same kind of mentality, but say before the GSP fight, like I would make sure I paid everybody back any money I owed.

00:23:00.960 If I borrowed a book or a CD or whatever, I'd make sure they were returned.

00:23:04.780 You know, I'd make sure that everything was taken care of because that 25 minutes is my last 25 minutes and it has to be.

00:23:12.300 And because, because otherwise I'm not going to compete to my potential if I'm not prepared to give everything.

00:23:17.220 Right.

00:23:17.900 Wow.

00:23:19.360 Mate, that is very different to how most people think about it.

00:23:22.600 Like, I didn't drive here thinking this is the last hour of my life.

00:23:26.040 I got to give this interview everything.

00:23:28.240 But that's the nature of what you do, isn't it?

00:23:30.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:30.920 I mean, you know, we see people do crazy things all the time.

00:23:33.160 I mean, those, you know, those flying squirrel suits and stuff that your life could be ended in a second.

00:23:37.580 At least I have some, some control over what's going on, I feel.

00:23:41.060 You know, I can direct the fight as long as I'm successful.

00:23:44.080 And as long as I'm training hard enough, I'm going to be successful.

00:23:46.480 So the buildup, I'm putting pressure on myself because I'm putting the work in.

00:23:50.600 I'm investing my, my, my time into doing the right things.

00:23:53.880 But even as you're walking out, that moment right before you step into the octagon, right before you walk up the steps, you have a moment to yourself where you're like 10, 12, 14 weeks of training camp.

00:24:04.300 And I've got 15 or 25 minutes to make it happen right now.

00:24:07.800 And that's when your adrenaline spikes.

00:24:09.780 And then Bruce Buffer's there and he's doing the, doing his job.

00:24:12.900 And that gets me fired up as well.

00:24:14.480 And, you know, you have to kind of bring yourself down a moment before the fight starts because you can be reckless.

00:24:19.340 You know, you can be overexcited and reckless.

00:24:21.060 And it's finding that tightrope that you can walk during the fight where you're, you're trying to be as forthright with your attack as possible, but not be too reckless.

00:24:30.120 That's a real challenge.

00:24:31.900 Floyd Patterson, former world heavyweight champion, used to have a disguise in his, in his changing room so that if he lost, he could don the disguise and slip away and no one would notice.

00:24:46.860 Do you, do you understand that mentality as a fighter?

00:24:50.060 Yeah.

00:24:50.440 Yeah, for sure.

00:24:51.240 Cause you, it's difficult to look somebody else in the eye if you feel like you've lost and you've not lived up to your potential.

00:24:57.600 You know, going out there and giving everything you've got and losing.

00:25:01.920 I never really struggled too much with that.

00:25:03.740 Of course, I never liked losing, but as long as I gave it everything I got, like GSP, I couldn't have beat that guy on that night.

00:25:10.460 You know, I could have fought him a hundred times and I probably wouldn't have beaten him more than a couple of three times based on where we were skill wise.

00:25:18.960 That was quite exciting to me because it felt like there was no pressure.

00:25:21.960 All I had to do was do everything I could in the fight and it may not have been enough.

00:25:25.620 It probably wasn't going to be enough, but there was a peace that came with that, right?

00:25:29.900 Like everybody before the fight said I was going to get submitted in the first round.

00:25:33.120 So, I'd already made peace with the fact that if I have to fight with one less limb because he snapped it, then go ahead and snap it.

00:25:41.040 People keep coming back to the arm bar that I escaped in that fight.

00:25:44.460 I don't really think it was that difficult to not tap because I already decided before the fight started that I would just punch him with the other arm.

00:25:52.200 You know, it's like we are sacrificing ourself when we go in there and you have to be in that mentality.

00:25:57.080 I don't think you can step into there and think to yourself, well, I've got to put self-preservation first because then you're not going to open up your attack.

00:26:06.740 You have to be at peace, I think, with the potential risks that you're going to take.

00:26:11.140 And what about the potential risks to your opponent?

00:26:13.280 Because there was a very famous fight between Eubank and Watson where Watson, who was the better fighter, many people argue, came out of it brain damaged.

00:26:21.360 And Eubank said in many interviews that he never hit as hard as he could after that.

00:26:26.060 Was that never a concern for you of the other person?

00:26:30.480 Honestly, no.

00:26:31.420 And I think maybe it sounds a little cold, but if you sign a contract to step into a cage with me, I'm going to do everything I can to put you out of there.

00:26:39.140 And I'm going to do it in such a way where nobody else wants to fight me ever again.

00:26:43.380 That's the intimidation factor that Tyson was talking about.

00:26:46.180 And I always say to my young fighters now, in those last five or ten seconds of the fight where you know the fight's won and you are looking for the finish,

00:26:52.920 be as brutal as you can be, because the people sitting in front row might be your next opponent.

00:26:58.260 And you want to give them that fear of God that they don't want to step in there with you.

00:27:02.400 It's war.

00:27:03.180 It can't be anything other than that.

00:27:04.360 If you treat it like a sport, you're going to lose every time.

00:27:06.980 You've got to treat it like it's warfare, because if you don't, then you're not giving the environment the respect I feel like it deserves.

00:27:12.980 And how big is the psychological element?

00:27:16.700 Because people, I think, so often get confused because, you know, you get your CM Punk people types, you know, people coming to UFC, you know, talking a good game,

00:27:24.980 but they don't have the physical skill set and they get destroyed.

00:27:28.320 But, you know, their mentality supposedly is in the right place.

00:27:31.460 And then you get other people who mentally aren't quite there, even though physically they're very talented.

00:27:35.960 Like, how big of a deal is it managing your mentality?

00:27:39.140 I mean, that was one of the things people always said about Conor McGregor.

00:27:41.540 He was very good at getting under the skin of his opponents, and he was.

00:27:46.060 And, you know, potentially people would argue in the Jose Aldo fight, you know, Aldo was so angry at him, he started rushing forward, you know, and we saw what happened.

00:27:54.240 On the other hand, you piss off Khabib, and then things go in a very different direction. 0.94

00:28:01.040 Yeah, for sure.

00:28:01.780 I mean, you always need the skills.

00:28:03.720 You always need to put the work in and have the skills.

00:28:06.000 And, like, Conor definitely had the skills to beat Aldo.

00:28:09.480 There's no doubt about it.

00:28:10.580 But it would have been a far, far more difficult test had he not primed Jose Aldo to be so vulnerable, right?

00:28:19.220 I mean, what was that, 13 seconds?

00:28:20.660 There was no way that Aldo runs onto a punch like that against anybody else.

00:28:24.160 And the big difference with Conor McGregor and a lot of other people is the way that he commands that chaos.

00:28:30.200 Like, he walks into the octagon like it's his front room every time.

00:28:34.440 And it doesn't matter who he's fighting, they're there for his benefit.

00:28:38.020 And it's not the other way around.

00:28:39.960 And I feel like that can rattle people sometimes.

00:28:42.880 It certainly rattled Aldo.

00:28:44.040 Like, I was, remember when he stole Aldo's belt in Dublin at the final press conference of the World Tour?

00:28:49.040 I was there on the side of the stage.

00:28:51.220 I knew he was going to do it.

00:28:52.240 The security knew he was going to do it.

00:28:53.500 They were already ready on the stairs to run on.

00:28:56.300 But it was, you could just see that Aldo was so shaken and rattled by Conor having such a big presence in the room that no matter what he did,

00:29:04.560 it was going to put Aldo in the wrong mentality for the fight.

00:29:07.600 And again, Conor McGregor just commands chaotic spaces better than anybody I've ever seen.

00:29:13.180 And even dealing with the pressure, you know, like the pressure that comes with being a superstar.

00:29:18.160 We see people like Jon Jones really struggle with it, where Conor McGregor takes it in his stride.

00:29:23.840 The mentality is massive, massive.

00:29:27.100 And I feel like if, I mean, I've trained with some of the best guys around.

00:29:31.300 And the two best fighters that I've trained with, the two by a far and a long way,

00:29:37.300 if I put them in the gym against GSP, I would put my money on them.

00:29:41.020 They can't put it together in the cage because they start to doubt themselves and their game falls apart.

00:29:46.300 But in the gym with no cameras and no people watching, they're absolute monsters.

00:29:52.220 And I always felt like that was my strength, like over some of my teammates,

00:29:55.780 because they sometimes would get anxious and start to doubt themselves and kind of work themselves out of the fight before it started.

00:30:03.700 I always woke up on fight day knowing full well that I was going to win and that they were going to have to kill me to stop me.

00:30:09.240 And I just, I feel like that made me kind of bulletproof a lot of the time.

00:30:12.860 You know, I've only been knocked out once and I was able to laugh at it afterwards, you know,

00:30:17.920 pretty quickly because it was a silly mistake that I made.

00:30:20.520 And I didn't give my opponent the credit of taking that fight from me.

00:30:24.600 I gave myself the criticism of handing it over to him because I wasn't in the right mental state.

00:30:29.660 Yeah. And it makes perfect sense. And we talked about Conor McGregor.

00:30:34.400 I hope it's not an unfair question because, you know, you commentate on the fights and whatever.

00:30:38.820 But as an outsider, as a layman, I can say this or I can ask this question at least.

00:30:43.360 Is he over now as a serious fighter, do you think? Or does he still have the skill set to come back and actually compete?

00:30:51.180 You know, I think he's definitely got the skills. He's definitely got the skills and the mentality.

00:30:54.920 And just like, you know, the likes of Jake Paul, he's got the finances around him to be able to build the perfect training camp,

00:31:00.460 bring all the right people in to support him.

00:31:03.320 The only downside is that he's a lightweight and the lightweight division is probably the most difficult division in the UFC.

00:31:08.360 And the gap in Conor's game that we've seen him struggle with is still there.

00:31:13.500 Like he's not going to have gained some kind of like Khabib Makachev style wrestling between, you know, the last time that we saw him and now.

00:31:20.660 And it doesn't seem like he's been working on it at all.

00:31:23.400 But you put him in there against the majority of the UFC roster and his presence alone will rattle them.

00:31:28.460 You know, like Michael Chandler, who's across the cage from him on the Ultimate Fighter, you know, adjusting Gaethje, someone like that.

00:31:35.760 They're easy pickings for Conor McGregor.

00:31:37.280 Really?

00:31:37.980 Yeah.

00:31:38.160 You think he can stand up to Michael Chandler?

00:31:40.820 Yeah, I do.

00:31:41.820 Really?

00:31:42.280 Chandler's a great athlete.

00:31:43.880 He moves very, very quickly.

00:31:45.060 But since he joined with the UFC, he's been a little more reckless than he was in, you know.

00:31:49.540 Like Bellator, when he was knocking out Pitbull and Sydney Outlaw, he was like lightning.

00:31:54.040 And that version is a very, very tough test for McGregor.

00:31:57.140 But McGregor primes people mentally before he fights them.

00:32:00.200 And the Ultimate Fighter is perfect because you have to deal with the guy for six or eight weeks.

00:32:04.200 He's going to be poking fun at Michael Chandler.

00:32:06.420 He's going to get inside his head.

00:32:08.120 So by the time the fight comes, McGregor's going to Billy Strut into the octagon with a big grin on his face.

00:32:13.140 And Michael Chandler is going to be grinding his teeth.

00:32:15.860 And just the difference in mentality is exactly what we saw from Aldo.

00:32:19.600 You know, Aldo was like, I'm going to have to go.

00:32:21.840 I'm going to have to go.

00:32:22.400 He felt like time was passing very slowly.

00:32:24.320 He rushed in and he got caught with the perfect counter.

00:32:27.100 You know, it's just the way that Conor is able to command spaces.

00:32:30.240 It makes him a very different person to deal with.

00:32:32.600 It's very Ali-like. 0.99

00:32:33.880 People often forget this about Ali because he's now, because he passed away, we kind of remember him as this almost saint-like figure.

00:32:41.520 But when he fought, particularly Joe Frazier, the things he used to say, the mind games he used to play, a lot of the time when they stepped in the ring, Frazier said it himself. 1.00

00:32:51.320 He said, I think the words were, I want to kill that motherfucker. 1.00

00:32:53.460 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 1.00

00:32:55.100 And that's the perfect mindset to get your opponent in.

00:32:58.160 I used to do quite a bit of trash talking and I think it's quite a British thing anyway. 1.00

00:33:03.220 Like my teammates, it's still the same at the gym this morning. 0.89

00:33:05.520 I know they're murdering each other with the trash talk this morning, you know, as much as they are with their physical skills.

00:33:11.720 And some people just can't deal with it.

00:33:13.600 You know, I fought a guy, Marcus Davis, great fighter, really nice guy.

00:33:18.400 But he just couldn't take the banter.

00:33:20.020 And as soon as I'd said a couple of things and I could see I got under his skin, straight away I'm feeling like the fight's swaying in my direction.

00:33:27.420 I can encourage him to fight a particular way.

00:33:29.540 He came out first round, guns blazing.

00:33:31.820 He was furious in the corner, so much more energy's being wasted.

00:33:35.940 Now this is the other thing, he's like, if he spends the last three, four weeks of training camp angry and furious at me,

00:33:42.380 he's going to wake up every day burning unnecessary energy.

00:33:45.260 He's going to be releasing stress hormones more than he would be normally in training camp.

00:33:49.400 He's probably not going to rest as well as he would do normally in training camp.

00:33:53.060 And then he steps in there in front of me and he sees me across the cage grinning at him.

00:33:57.680 Right?

00:33:58.260 Like, and you can watch that fight back.

00:34:00.080 Like his corner man, Mark Della Grotti, was saying to him, one more round you're going to shut this kid up.

00:34:05.100 It was not about beating me.

00:34:06.760 It was about shutting me up.

00:34:08.740 And that for me was the perfect mentality to have my opponents in.

00:34:12.720 And some people don't respond.

00:34:13.960 Like my next opponent, Mike Swick, he just didn't bite on anything.

00:34:17.140 So I just stopped and that made him quite uncomfortable because he wanted the banter.

00:34:22.300 He felt like that was the way that the fight was going to be sold.

00:34:26.880 It doesn't always work.

00:34:28.540 McGregor finds a way to get inside people's minds regardless of who they are.

00:34:32.020 He knows how to, like with Aldo, the line about, you know, riding into the favelas in Brazil and, you know, on a horse.

00:34:39.200 It was just, it was wild stuff. 0.98

00:34:41.580 It's so ridiculous. 0.87

00:34:42.240 But it's brilliant because Aldo's hearing it and thinking, how dare you say that about me, you know? 0.78

00:34:47.140 But that wildness of character, that can be both an asset and it can be your weakness as well.

00:34:54.040 A great example of that is Jon Jones, who is a wild character, which means he's one of the greatest of all time.

00:35:01.960 But at the same time, it's also his downfall.

00:35:04.320 It is, absolutely.

00:35:05.880 And I think, you know, I think we have to understand that Jon Jones, what was he, 23 when he got the belt?

00:35:10.220 Like, those first few fights, because I've just recently done the breakdown for BT Sport on the Jones gown fight coming up.

00:35:17.200 And, you know, I went back to right at the beginning of his UFC career and watched each fight through.

00:35:21.960 And he was, it makes sense why he thought he was untouchable.

00:35:26.680 Because he kind of was.

00:35:27.900 You know, the things that he was doing to people, spinning elbows from a single leg against Stephen Bonner, people weren't doing those kind of things.

00:35:35.620 People aren't doing the same kind of things that McGregor's doing.

00:35:38.380 But the difference is McGregor was, what, 26, 27 when he was doing them and Jon Jones was 22, 23.

00:35:44.780 I just feel like he wasn't mature enough to deal with the person that he was at the time, if that makes sense.

00:35:51.800 But he's still getting into trouble now.

00:35:53.260 He goes to Vegas within, you know, half an hour, he's assaulted someone and the police are there.

00:35:57.940 You know what I mean?

00:35:58.740 I mean, I wouldn't say it to his face, but you know what I mean.

00:36:01.940 Like, he's still a wild, wild dude, which, you know, which you can understand.

00:36:06.280 I mean, that's probably why he's a fighter.

00:36:09.320 When is the Cyril Gunn, Jon Jones fight?

00:36:12.960 It's a week on Saturday.

00:36:14.780 A week on Saturday.

00:36:15.400 I don't know if this will go out before then.

00:36:17.360 March 5th, I think it is.

00:36:18.660 Well, you're quite high on Jones in terms of that fight.

00:36:26.680 And this is the first, he's going up to heavyweight, which would be interesting.

00:36:29.520 But he's taken his time to build his body up, hasn't he?

00:36:33.800 Is Francis Ngannou versus Jon Jones the greatest fight the UFC never made?

00:36:40.620 Yes.

00:36:41.360 He is, isn't it?

00:36:42.000 I mean, anyone would see that fight, wouldn't they?

00:36:45.180 I mean, the only other one that I would say, I mean, obviously, Anderson Silva GSP was

00:36:49.720 a fight people always wanted.

00:36:51.240 But the Tony Ferguson-Khabib fight, it never happened.

00:36:54.240 You know, of course, now people are like, I'm not bothered because we've seen Tony get

00:36:57.720 beaten pretty convincingly.

00:37:00.220 But when they were trying to make that fight and when it was made and then fell through

00:37:03.540 several times, I feel like that was the fight that kind of got away from us.

00:37:07.000 Yeah.

00:37:07.380 Like, I still feel like Jon Jones technically is leagues ahead of Francis Ngannou.

00:37:11.500 The X factor was the power in Ngannou's hands and whether Jones could deal with it.

00:37:17.520 Because, you know, we saw him get clipped with big shots against Gustafsson and he took

00:37:21.600 them well, but they were light heavyweight.

00:37:23.720 I look at Gustafsson, it's not Francis Ngannou.

00:37:26.760 It's a different thing.

00:37:27.840 And I don't know whether this fight's the same, given the fact that Cyril Gann's not really

00:37:31.180 a puncher either.

00:37:32.340 You know, he kind of has the advantages that Jon Jones had as a light heavyweight, at heavyweight.

00:37:37.600 He moves well.

00:37:38.280 You know, he's very disciplined in his game.

00:37:41.120 He's got a great, high fight IQ, good decision making.

00:37:45.340 That, in my opinion, is quite a tough test for Jon Jones because it would be a bit more

00:37:48.700 like fighting the same character in a video game.

00:37:51.420 Whereas Ngannou, you know what you have to deal with with Ngannou.

00:37:54.660 You have to stay away from that power.

00:37:56.300 So I'm actually more excited for the Cyril Gann fight.

00:37:58.880 But of course, I would like to have seen the Francis one.

00:38:01.420 I feel like Francis, no matter where he goes, people are going to want to watch because

00:38:05.060 he's such a unique physical specimen.

00:38:08.160 But Jones is a unique physical specimen with an immense amount of skill and creativity.

00:38:13.080 And that's a very scary thing.

00:38:15.360 Francis Ngannou, I remember when he knocked out Rosenstreich.

00:38:18.560 And he just takes this gigantic swing, knocks him out.

00:38:22.660 The guy's falling.

00:38:23.520 And by the time he's falling, he's hit him another three times on the way down.

00:38:26.200 Yeah.

00:38:26.840 Terrifying.

00:38:27.200 And, you know, the knockout over Alistair Overeem as well, where he put his head back

00:38:31.980 like a Pez dispenser.

00:38:33.220 Yeah.

00:38:33.440 Like, you just, you know, you just don't see that kind of power uncorked against people

00:38:38.380 most of the time.

00:38:39.020 And honestly, like, you watch the Overeem fight and you think to yourself, how does he

00:38:43.500 get back up after that punch?

00:38:44.900 I mean, he does.

00:38:45.740 It's amazing that he gets back to his feet.

00:38:47.780 But there comes a point when you think to yourself, he's going to hit somebody one day

00:38:51.120 and they're not going to get back up.

00:38:52.420 And that's kind of, that's Francis Ngannou power.

00:38:54.440 And I don't feel like there are many people in mixed martial arts or even in boxing that

00:38:58.320 have got that.

00:38:58.920 Like, Deontay Wilde has got a scary power, you know, maybe comparable with Ngannou.

00:39:03.980 That would be a fight I'd like to see, to be honest.

00:39:06.060 But it's a unique thing.

00:39:08.740 But when you've got someone that's got that kind of finishing ability and then they back

00:39:11.480 it up with technique, that's when they're very, very elite.

00:39:14.780 And I feel like Francis is still kind of growing into that fighter.

00:39:17.660 I was a little bit surprised by how high you are in Jon Jones.

00:39:20.940 And only, I mean, for me, as a complete layman, by the way, I'm not, but he's probably the

00:39:28.180 best fighter that I've ever seen.

00:39:29.580 Yeah.

00:39:29.760 Right.

00:39:30.480 Present company accepted, obviously.

00:39:34.240 But his last few fights in the light heavyweight, I mean, I personally, again, complete layman,

00:39:42.720 I don't know what I'm talking about, but I thought he lost the Santos fight, for example.

00:39:46.160 And the others, I mean, like Reyes was very close, in my opinion.

00:39:51.700 So it's not like he was dominating everybody the way he had been, as you say, in his early

00:39:56.200 20s.

00:39:57.460 But you are really, you're really positive on him at the moment.

00:40:00.820 You think he's going to come back and be really, even though we haven't seen him for

00:40:04.260 a few years.

00:40:05.040 Yeah, I do.

00:40:05.800 I do.

00:40:06.380 Maybe it's a bit of wishful thinking because I'm obviously a big fan of Jon Jones.

00:40:10.500 Like just going back and watching his old fights, I'm still, I'm still seeing things

00:40:13.860 that I've not seen before, clever little, like, you know, wrist controls.

00:40:17.760 So he's opening up opportunities to land his elbows on the ground.

00:40:20.480 Really clever, really clever stuff.

00:40:22.780 Very creative as well.

00:40:24.280 And see, this is where Jones's last three fights, in my opinion, weren't, that was him

00:40:30.780 like six out of 10.

00:40:32.060 He looked, he looked disinterested.

00:40:33.960 He looked uninspired.

00:40:35.220 He didn't look threatened by his opponents.

00:40:37.520 He just, he just didn't really seem to be too bothered.

00:40:39.400 In fact, there was an interview he did recently and he, he kind of hints at the fact that

00:40:43.200 I was fighting Dom Reyes.

00:40:44.800 You know, he'd been looking forward to fighting me since he was at high school.

00:40:48.120 You know, like Jones is, it's like, I understand the same as Anderson Silva when he fought

00:40:52.600 Chris Weidman, right?

00:40:53.660 Anderson Silva was the champion when Chris Weidman turned pro.

00:40:56.840 Like, I just didn't see Jon Jones wanting to be in those fights.

00:41:00.320 And plus, you know, he was having pay issues and, you know, feeling disrespected by the UFC.

00:41:04.840 So again, things that are going to kind of disconnect him from being there.

00:41:08.260 And because he's so good, he can step in there at five out of 10, six out of 10 and

00:41:13.260 still beat the hell out of people.

00:41:15.380 You know, the Gustafsson fight, the first one was a very, very close fight, but only

00:41:19.220 because Jon Jones was out partying and, you know, not, not giving Gustafsson the respect

00:41:24.160 he deserves.

00:41:25.160 But if he was fighting Francis Ngannou, do you think he'd be out partying and stuff?

00:41:28.380 Of course not, because he'd be terrified of the person he's facing.

00:41:31.380 I think, so I think a bit of fear is important for Jon Jones.

00:41:34.020 And I don't think we saw it in his last few fights.

00:41:35.960 And I don't, I don't feel like they were close fights because his opponents were good enough

00:41:40.460 to make them close fights.

00:41:42.180 I felt like they were close because he just wasn't putting the same kind of pressure on

00:41:45.340 as he normally does.

00:41:46.620 Like the second Gustafsson fight where he's trying to wrench his shoulders out of the

00:41:49.880 sockets and, you know, takes him down, smashes him on the floor in the third round.

00:41:55.000 That's a different kind of Jon Jones to what we've seen.

00:41:57.480 And, you know, I put myself in his mentality.

00:42:00.760 I've been out for three years.

00:42:02.280 I've been watching these heavyweights, like, make loads of money and move their way up

00:42:06.640 the rankings, know full well that they're not as good as me.

00:42:09.640 And I'm Jon Jones.

00:42:10.840 I'm thinking I'm going to come back with a bang.

00:42:12.700 I've been out for three years lifting and getting strong.

00:42:15.140 I think he's going to come in 250.

00:42:16.940 I think he might come in the heavier fighter out of the two, to be honest.

00:42:19.700 Wow.

00:42:19.940 And I think he's going to make an example of Cyril.

00:42:21.780 I think that's what his intention will be.

00:42:23.240 And that's a scary Jon Jones because that's the kind of Jon Jones that will try and retire you.

00:42:27.960 Like, he's not, like, and even his post-fight interviews in his last few fights have been odd.

00:42:32.760 You know, he puts a different voice on.

00:42:34.140 Like, the mean Jon Jones that was fighting Daniel Cormier, that's a person that I don't think anybody

00:42:38.880 on the planet can be in the right mentality.

00:42:41.320 But the Jon Jones that was like, you know, Anthony Smith, I'm so proud of you.

00:42:47.000 I don't buy that Jon Jones for a second.

00:42:49.100 I just don't feel like that's his character.

00:42:50.580 He's a mean dude. 0.99

00:42:51.660 He's nasty. 0.99

00:42:52.760 Yeah. 0.99

00:42:52.940 Right?

00:42:53.480 Like, the things that he does, he's trying to, like, Glover to Shearer, literally trying

00:42:57.160 to wrench his shoulder out of the socket.

00:42:59.380 Like, you don't see people doing that in mixed martial arts.

00:43:01.460 He finds the rules, the oblique kicks that he was landing.

00:43:03.880 Yeah, that kick he did to the knee to, like, basically break the fur.

00:43:07.020 And he has no forgiveness.

00:43:08.200 If something works, he'll do it a hundred more times to you until it breaks you.

00:43:12.380 Like, we see that mentality very, very rarely in mixed martial arts, which is a shame

00:43:18.160 because that's kind of where you get the best fighters.

00:43:21.240 But that's why Jon Jones is a pioneer.

00:43:23.420 And do you not think the fact that he's older now, let's be fair, he hasn't really looked

00:43:28.320 after his body.

00:43:29.240 He likes a drink.

00:43:30.240 He likes, shall we just call them the extracurriculars.

00:43:33.180 Do you think that's not made an impact on him and his physique?

00:43:36.680 Honestly, no, I don't think so.

00:43:37.980 I think he's such a unique physical specimen.

00:43:39.840 I mean, you look at the rest of his family, they're all, you know, footballers and, you

00:43:43.500 know, he clearly comes from good genetics, good physical stock.

00:43:48.340 So he was always going to be a good athlete no matter what he did.

00:43:51.760 Most athletes, when they hit the top of their game, they're always doing stuff that they

00:43:55.180 shouldn't be doing.

00:43:55.960 You know what I mean?

00:43:56.660 And it tends to affect people.

00:43:58.020 Yeah.

00:43:58.860 Yeah.

00:44:01.000 We were watching the Usain Bolt documentary the other day and he broke his foot in a night

00:44:05.180 club.

00:44:05.460 Like, training for the Olympics, like, because the pressure is so great, people do silly

00:44:11.380 things sometimes.

00:44:12.520 Yeah.

00:44:13.000 Like, fortunately, I never liked going out, so I never found myself in that circumstance.

00:44:17.480 But with Jon Jones, like, he's restless, he's full of energy, he's a superstar.

00:44:22.300 Everywhere he goes, people want to put drinks in his hand and, you know, take him places and

00:44:26.260 he loves that.

00:44:27.740 And women are throwing themselves at him and all the rest of it.

00:44:30.080 Yeah, of course.

00:44:30.780 And, you know, it's difficult being a professional fighter and then going out in a night club

00:44:38.260 because half of the people there, because they've had a drink, half of the people there

00:44:41.960 think they're your best friend.

00:44:43.460 So they're arms around him, hanging on him, pulling him in different directions.

00:44:47.880 Then you've got the people that fancy their chances, which, of course, is not very often

00:44:52.120 with Jon Jones.

00:44:53.540 But it does happen.

00:44:54.600 You know what I mean?

00:44:55.000 You do get those people and it makes the environment quite difficult.

00:44:58.140 And, you know, Jon Jones is used to being respected.

00:45:00.640 If he's got someone that's drunk that's spitting in his ear or dragging him around

00:45:04.520 a club or whatever, you know, I can imagine he would get irate with them.

00:45:09.020 But he gets irate and he's also the most dangerous man on the planet.

00:45:11.880 You know, it's a different situation, right?

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00:45:44.600 And do you think the UFC did enough to keep Francis Ngarnot?

00:45:48.260 No, absolutely not.

00:45:49.760 Absolutely not.

00:45:50.500 The requests that he made were, the thing that's most disappointing about it is that

00:45:54.440 nobody else stood by him.

00:45:56.020 Because the things he was asking for would benefit the whole roster.

00:45:58.900 You know, he was asking for a fighter representative in conversations that the UFC were having,

00:46:03.500 the executive meetings, to make sure that the fighters were being considered.

00:46:07.600 You know, these are things that, you know, people respected Muhammad Ali for, you know,

00:46:12.500 standing against the Vietnam War and, you know, refusing to fight.

00:46:16.200 Like, I know, of course, that's a slightly different thing.

00:46:19.840 But if we look at the circumstance in mixed martial arts right now, the pay disputes,

00:46:24.400 the issues with, you know, fighters at the end of their career not having any money,

00:46:28.220 not really physically being very looked after by the organization post-career,

00:46:33.040 we need people to stand up and make those changes.

00:46:36.300 Like the Ali Act needs applying to mixed martial arts.

00:46:38.720 There's no doubt about it.

00:46:40.140 And Francis Ngarnot would have been one of the people that could push that through.

00:46:43.400 But he would have also needed a couple of other champions.

00:46:45.400 You know, he would have needed an Israel Adesanya or a Kamaru Usman

00:46:48.500 or someone to stand by him against the UFC.

00:46:52.200 And because he didn't, he was kind of shunned and isolated.

00:46:56.460 And the UFC had the power to just kind of push him to one side.

00:47:00.440 Well, I want to ask you more questions about the UFC,

00:47:02.380 but there is an elephant in the room here, which is you were a UFC commentator.

00:47:07.760 Yes.

00:47:08.000 And then you left in acrimonious circumstances and Dana White fired some shots at you and all the rest.

00:47:12.900 So what happened there?

00:47:13.820 So, I mean, so I've been working obviously with the UFC, the UK office for a long time.

00:47:19.880 And as a fighter back in 2008, it was great.

00:47:23.120 You know, we had a PR team.

00:47:24.480 We had a whole office in Old Street in London.

00:47:27.700 It was a fantastic environment, really growing quickly.

00:47:31.080 Always constantly connecting the fighters to the media and stuff.

00:47:34.200 And it just felt, you know, within the time I was a fighter turned commentator that that interest in Europe had just kind of dropped off.

00:47:41.620 And my job was an ambassador for Europe.

00:47:43.640 So I was trying to get the fighters connected to the media.

00:47:46.420 I was trying to make sure that there was attention and promotion going on around the UFC.

00:47:50.340 And I felt a lot of time like I was working hard and there was no support in Europe.

00:47:55.800 And there was a particular person I had a disagreement with who oversaw a lot of the public relations stuff.

00:48:02.980 And I always felt like she wasn't particularly very good at her job.

00:48:06.200 Didn't particularly like doing her job.

00:48:07.720 I felt that was a big part of the problem.

00:48:10.260 Not really interested in mixed martial arts, just kind of doing her job because that's the job that they do. 0.91

00:48:15.680 But it was starting to get really obstructive for me.

00:48:18.840 You know, like, so like BBC Radio contacted the UFC office about me commentating the McGregor Poirier fight.

00:48:24.720 And I was initially working for ESPN on the post-fight desk when this offer came through.

00:48:30.440 It was a great offer.

00:48:31.600 BBC Radio, you know, broadcasting the audio for the McGregor fight was a huge deal for UFC Europe.

00:48:37.200 And I definitely wanted to do it.

00:48:39.140 And there was one person that just kind of stood in the way of it all and didn't make the connections.

00:48:43.800 And there was a point during Fight Island where I had a conversation with this person.

00:48:48.740 And I basically called them out on not doing a very good job.

00:48:52.640 But, and she got embarrassed is the best way of me putting it.

00:48:57.820 And I understand at the time why she got embarrassed because there were a couple of other colleagues there around us.

00:49:02.180 But I was just so frustrated with the lack of effort coming from the UK office.

00:49:07.080 And the fact that we had really, really great fighters from Europe that were getting no attention at all compared to how it was in 2008.

00:49:13.840 Right.

00:49:14.040 We want to continue growing.

00:49:15.540 We want to continue the sport, you know, reaching into the mainstream.

00:49:18.220 And we were losing ground very, very quickly.

00:49:21.380 And that was, I was frustrated with that.

00:49:23.540 I said to the person, I said, like, why are you not doing your job?

00:49:26.880 Like, you know, you've got a job to do.

00:49:29.060 We need you to do your job well.

00:49:30.480 And you're just choosing not to do it.

00:49:32.560 And I don't know what was said.

00:49:34.520 I don't know what conversation was passed on to the executives in the UFC.

00:49:38.800 But it certainly wasn't the reality of the situation.

00:49:40.980 I never spoke to Dana.

00:49:43.460 I haven't spoken to Dana for a long time.

00:49:45.460 Normally, I would have got a phone call from him.

00:49:48.080 But for whatever reason, I didn't hear from him at all.

00:49:50.900 So I don't know what was told to the UFC.

00:49:52.940 I've still never found out.

00:49:54.100 I can imagine that it was, you know, there was a scenario created that wasn't the truth.

00:50:00.660 And I feel like that's kind of the situation that I was caught in.

00:50:04.180 Well, the way Dana presented in one of his interviews was that you'd mistreated one of

00:50:08.820 the female employees. 0.99

00:50:09.880 That's how he phrased it.

00:50:11.120 Yeah.

00:50:11.800 Which is hugely insulting.

00:50:14.560 If anyone knows me, then they just know I'm not that kind of person.

00:50:17.860 You know, of course, we're discussing before we start.

00:50:19.760 Well, your wife's got black eyes, mate. 1.00

00:50:21.760 Yeah.

00:50:22.920 But the reality is, it's like, I understand what Dana's up against because I'm getting

00:50:27.120 treated like he's being treated now, but he was caught on video.

00:50:30.220 And that's not my responsibility.

00:50:31.820 That was from sparring.

00:50:33.180 Do you know what I mean?

00:50:33.540 I understand that he said his punishment was how people will view him.

00:50:38.960 Absolutely, for sure.

00:50:40.740 But at the same time, he's a powerful man and he's got a lot of money and he's able to

00:50:44.520 kind of coast past these things and throw shots at me, which were false.

00:50:48.880 They were lies.

00:50:49.680 Of course, I'd never mistreated anybody.

00:50:52.060 All right.

00:50:52.280 Well, coming back to the UFC itself then.

00:50:54.400 So we've got that out of the way so people can make their own minds up about how objective

00:50:57.760 you are.

00:50:58.240 But there's been a lot of talk about fight to pay. 0.98

00:51:00.320 And I, again, complete layman, so I'm probably talking shit, but just hear me out as just 0.98

00:51:05.140 an outside observer. 0.98

00:51:06.860 On the one hand, I see that most other leagues have some kind of union representation or some

00:51:13.300 kind of, you know, the NBA, for example.

00:51:14.940 They collectively bargain to get more money.

00:51:17.220 On the other hand, the counter argument from people like Dana is, well, look, we invest in

00:51:23.020 the sport and we grow it so we have, you know, performance institutes.

00:51:26.940 We are constantly trying to source new talent.

00:51:29.480 We are building the entire sport, not just for the UFC, but for other promotions because

00:51:33.900 we're pushing all this stuff forward where we've built a mainstream following for what

00:51:39.320 used to be a niche product.

00:51:41.220 And, you know, that's why we need the money, essentially.

00:51:44.780 Right.

00:51:44.960 I mean, you're a former fighter and you've left the UFC, so I imagine where you land on

00:51:51.380 it.

00:51:51.860 But what do you make of his counter argument, essentially?

00:51:56.260 There's certainly nothing we can take away from the UFC, what they've done for the sport

00:52:00.080 and, you know, the industry that they've created for all fighters.

00:52:03.640 But we also can't forget that the industry wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the fighters

00:52:07.100 as well.

00:52:08.200 Now, the UFC are making massive, massive amounts of money, right?

00:52:12.120 And then you've got fighters that are retiring with nothing in their bank account.

00:52:15.480 And it's not because they're not managing their finances very well.

00:52:18.000 It's because they might fight twice a year and they might get $20,000 if they fight.

00:52:22.700 Is that per fight?

00:52:24.000 Per fight, yeah.

00:52:25.180 But then they've got to pay for their camp and all that.

00:52:27.180 Coaches, transport.

00:52:28.600 I mean, training camps are incredibly expensive.

00:52:30.960 Just, you know, travel and gym fees.

00:52:33.020 You know, all fighters have to contribute to their gym.

00:52:34.900 They have to pay management teams.

00:52:37.320 The other thing that affected us massively was the sponsorships being taken off the table.

00:52:42.120 So when I first joined the UFC, you could bring your own shorts.

00:52:45.160 You had to supply two pairs of shorts.

00:52:47.100 You had to show them what sponsors you had in case there were any conflicting sponsors

00:52:50.400 with the UFC's main sponsors.

00:52:51.980 But otherwise, you were able to represent the companies that you wanted.

00:52:55.360 We had the banners behind us in the corners.

00:52:57.720 We had all of our sponsors on the banners and stuff.

00:53:00.080 That was all taken away.

00:53:01.260 So say when I fought Joyce St-Pierre, my purse was $22,000 for that, right?

00:53:08.020 And I'm fighting in a world title fight on a pay-per-view.

00:53:13.100 What, six million people watching?

00:53:15.720 Something like that?

00:53:16.120 This was quite a long time ago, to be fair.

00:53:17.500 It was.

00:53:17.920 It was, for sure.

00:53:18.720 And they were different dollars, too.

00:53:20.180 Absolutely.

00:53:21.080 But even so, the money that I should have made then, based on what was being made off

00:53:25.780 the fight, even if the fighters were being paid that today.

00:53:30.320 Like Paddy Pimlitz, high up on the UFC cards in London, but he's still getting paid the

00:53:34.840 same as what people were getting paid 10 years ago.

00:53:37.900 It's embarrassing that he's not progressed through.

00:53:40.760 And that money's going somewhere.

00:53:42.520 Like, all the sponsors were taken away from the fighters.

00:53:45.180 So say Vitor Belfort was sponsored by Sky.

00:53:47.620 He got $2 million a year or something from them.

00:53:50.220 That was taken away straight away.

00:53:52.340 So then a lot of revenue dries up for fighters.

00:53:55.140 And then, of course, the UFC then bring their own sponsors in.

00:53:57.880 So now crypto paid the UFC $175 million, and the fighters get none of that, right?

00:54:03.340 Or the Reebok deal.

00:54:04.780 Like, I would have got $15,000 off tap out or $2,000 off Reebok if my time had been different.

00:54:12.960 And you're talking five or 10 years difference.

00:54:15.740 So surely things should get better.

00:54:17.700 Things were good, and they got worse because the UFC drew the money back into their own

00:54:22.480 pockets.

00:54:23.640 Like, the first thing, we had a relatively free sponsorship market.

00:54:28.000 Then there was a tax that was brought in.

00:54:29.880 So if you wanted to sponsor a UFC fighter, it was somewhere between $50,000 and $100,000

00:54:34.520 for your company to pay to the UFC.

00:54:37.620 So that money then didn't go to the fighters.

00:54:40.120 If you've got 100 companies, let's then reduce down to 10 companies that can afford the $100,000

00:54:45.100 to the UFC.

00:54:46.480 And then $100,000 of their budget has already gone to the UFC, and they've got pennies left

00:54:50.800 to pay the fighters.

00:54:52.620 So we kind of went through the money being taken off the table, and then the UFC purse

00:54:58.360 is not increasing.

00:54:59.120 The money's being made in massive amounts, and it's not being fed back into the grassroots

00:55:05.340 of the sport.

00:55:06.440 And the guys that are retiring now are the guys that are going to open gyms and train the

00:55:10.580 next generation of fighters.

00:55:12.500 We're training at GB Top Team for my wife's training camp, and Brad Pickett, it's an awesome

00:55:17.260 gym.

00:55:18.160 But it's the only one in the country that's like it, and it still was a lot of money to

00:55:21.520 set up.

00:55:22.360 And Brad didn't have all the money to set it up himself.

00:55:25.060 We need this money to come back to the fighters so we can keep growing the industry.

00:55:30.180 But at the moment, it's got to the stage where now all of the cream's being scraped off

00:55:33.980 the top into a few accounts, and everybody else is making the money for the few people

00:55:38.800 that are benefiting, which ultimately is the situation in most industries, right?

00:55:44.040 Across the world, it's the same circumstance.

00:55:46.020 But it sounds like you feel that the UFC is in a monopolistic position, and it's taken

00:55:51.700 advantage of that.

00:55:52.840 100%.

00:55:53.320 You've got to remember, when I was coming through, I had the options of fighting on UFC,

00:55:58.560 on Elite XC, Strikeforce, Dream, Pride, Bodog.

00:56:03.000 There were loads and loads of events that were options for us.

00:56:06.180 But then WEC, eventually the UFC buys up all of these organizations.

00:56:11.080 So they buy Elite XC, they buy Strikeforce, they buy Pride.

00:56:14.760 So then basically, you've not got all your boutique coffee shops, and you've not got

00:56:18.780 your several different strong brands.

00:56:21.560 You've got one brand that charged three or four times the amount for the same cup of

00:56:25.680 coffee, and you've got no other options to go anywhere else.

00:56:28.240 So do you want to fight for the UFC and get paid $20,000, or do you want to go and fight

00:56:32.240 for the show down the road and get 500-plus ticket sales?

00:56:38.360 There was just no option.

00:56:40.320 You either sign with the UFC or you're not a professional MMA fighter.

00:56:43.760 And that was kind of how it was monopolized.

00:56:45.580 And that was during my time as a UFC fighter as well.

00:56:48.960 They were being investigated by the FBI for monopolizing the industry and stuff.

00:56:53.220 And we were told as fighters, don't speak to anybody.

00:56:56.280 Don't speak to anybody about this monopolization of the sport, because they knew they were doing

00:56:59.720 it, it was a very, very clever mechanism to slowly squeeze out the competition.

00:57:05.220 Pride was awesome.

00:57:06.380 It was a massive Japanese event.

00:57:07.840 They bought it for $30 million.

00:57:09.300 They brought all the fighters over, and then the fighters are at the whim of whatever UFC

00:57:12.880 wants to pay them.

00:57:14.280 They monopolized the sport, so there's no other options to go anywhere else.

00:57:17.220 I can't negotiate like I could if I was a free agent in boxing.

00:57:21.480 I could go, well, I could go Eddie Hearn, or I could go Frank Warren, or I could speak

00:57:24.940 to DAZN, or whatever.

00:57:26.580 I've got options.

00:57:27.460 But with the UFC, you can't.

00:57:28.860 If you want to be the best in the world, you have to sign with the UFC, because there

00:57:31.960 are no other options.

00:57:33.480 Now, obviously, with the PFL coming through, the industry's in another stage where it's

00:57:37.940 growing.

00:57:38.660 Money's coming back into the sport.

00:57:40.780 But that's probably because the UFC are losing a bit of momentum, I think.

00:57:44.080 Why are they losing momentum?

00:57:45.980 I think a big part of it, I mean, Dana is the driving force behind it.

00:57:49.100 And he's kind of taken his eyes off the prize to me.

00:57:52.440 You know, like the UFC is constantly promoting the Power Slap League.

00:57:56.320 He's forgetting the main event fighters' names.

00:57:59.000 Like, he forgot Makachev's name twice in the build-up to UFC 284.

00:58:03.540 How can you do that if you're the promoter?

00:58:05.800 I feel like he's lost interest in it.

00:58:07.800 And I feel like now, because he feels like he's untouchable, he's just going to ride it

00:58:11.780 until the wheels fall off and make as much money as he can.

00:58:13.880 What do you make about Slap?

00:58:15.500 Slap, because I'm a big fan of the UFC.

00:58:19.120 I think I understand what you're saying.

00:58:21.320 But at the same time, I can see the incredible job Dana's done to build it up to what it is

00:58:25.080 and build the sport.

00:58:26.100 I'd love to interview him.

00:58:27.220 We were going to interview him the last time he was in London.

00:58:29.280 And if we get a chance, I'll put some of these questions to him as well, the points

00:58:32.800 that you're making.

00:58:34.260 But when I look at Slap, again, casual, don't know what I'm talking about. 0.96

00:58:39.480 I understand people hitting each other and being able to defend each other, but this

00:58:45.380 is just people hitting each other just with no protection.

00:58:49.680 Is that really a sport?

00:58:51.900 What do you make of it?

00:58:53.160 It's dangerous.

00:58:54.560 It's very, very dangerous.

00:58:56.240 Now, I went through the years where the UFC, where mixed martial arts wasn't accepted.

00:59:02.280 So I had a lot of people telling me that I shouldn't be doing what I was doing because

00:59:05.340 they didn't understand it.

00:59:06.880 So I'm trying not to project my opinions onto Power Slap as a thing in itself.

00:59:12.460 My main issue with it is that it's so closely tied to the UFC.

00:59:16.320 Like we fought for years and years.

00:59:18.160 When I fought GSP, it was 2010.

00:59:20.100 It wasn't that long ago.

00:59:21.780 Most of my interview questions were about MMA.

00:59:24.660 Why should it be a legitimate sport?

00:59:26.880 I had people throwing the words cockfighting at me and stuff.

00:59:29.580 I'm like, I am a professional athlete.

00:59:31.760 I train all day, every day.

00:59:33.340 I am working on my skill set.

00:59:34.840 I'm working on my physical conditioning, my sports psychology.

00:59:38.000 I don't drink.

00:59:38.700 I'm dedicated to my diet.

00:59:40.300 And you're treating me like I'm a thug.

00:59:42.560 It's not fair because I was dedicated to a sport.

00:59:46.200 But then so much time has passed.

00:59:48.580 And I guess in a way, it reflects how strong the UFC brand is that now they can stick Power

00:59:53.880 Slap on the side of it and don't feel like they're doing damage to the sport.

00:59:57.420 If you'd have done that in 2010, it would have completely invalidated the UFC as a brand

01:00:02.100 because people were still on the fence about it.

01:00:04.840 But now, again, I feel like Dana feels like he's untouchable because they are ramming the

01:00:09.980 Power Slap League down our throats. 1.00

01:00:12.020 I've unfollowed Dana and the UFC on Instagram because I'm sick of seeing it popping up.

01:00:16.420 I go on Fight Pass because I'm researching fights and it's there on the front page.

01:00:20.580 So it's aligning basically two guys just taking free swings at one another.

01:00:25.800 It's CTE for money.

01:00:28.520 They're trading brain cells for cash.

01:00:30.600 And they're only offering you a couple of thousand dollars to do it anyway.

01:00:33.440 It's not like it's going to change your life.

01:00:35.960 I mean, it changed your life for the negative, of course.

01:00:38.200 You're drinking out, eating soup for the rest of your life doing that kind of stuff.

01:00:42.940 It misses the point of combat sports.

01:00:45.980 It's not a sport because there's not a competitiveness to it.

01:00:48.840 It's the person that can get up after taking full Power Slaps. 0.94

01:00:52.820 That, in my eyes, is ridiculous.

01:00:55.180 The art of martial arts is the attack and the defense, right? 0.82

01:00:58.900 You don't get scored defense in mixed martial arts scoring criteria

01:01:01.760 because the defense is the reward in itself, right?

01:01:05.260 You keep your hands up.

01:01:06.140 You don't get punched in the face.

01:01:07.340 Well done you, right?

01:01:08.640 The idea of Power Slap is that you stand there and you take a shot.

01:01:11.540 You know it's coming.

01:01:12.940 That's just free CTE for everybody involved.

01:01:15.660 And because it's bolted onto the UFC now so tightly,

01:01:20.700 all the way through their social media and their online presence and everything,

01:01:25.040 if something happens to one of those people,

01:01:27.180 of course it gets reflected badly on the UFC.

01:01:30.400 But I just don't feel like they care anymore.

01:01:32.140 And that's the problem I have with it.

01:01:34.240 Dan, so who are these people taking part in Power Slaps?

01:01:37.280 Because it comes up on my phone.

01:01:39.480 And like I say, I really enjoy UFC.

01:01:42.400 Huge boxing fan.

01:01:43.700 And it's just, I don't like it.

01:01:47.080 I'm not sure how many people who watch UFC or boxing would be into that.

01:01:52.780 Well, I mean, if you look at the comments on the UFC social media,

01:01:55.960 anytime Dana or the UFC post something,

01:01:58.020 literally every single one of the comments with thousands of likes is,

01:02:02.160 stop showing us this.

01:02:03.400 We don't want to see it.

01:02:05.320 Of course there's a market for it,

01:02:07.580 but there's a market for everything, unfortunately, these days.

01:02:10.880 If you put two people in vehicles and got them to drive one another in, 0.95

01:02:14.900 that'd be fucking popular, I tell you. 0.92

01:02:17.180 This is the direction we're going, right? 0.99

01:02:18.660 Yeah.

01:02:19.140 We watched Idiocracy last night.

01:02:21.180 I'm watching that movie thinking to myself, 1.00

01:02:23.080 we are moving into this time in our lives where people are just so stupid. 1.00

01:02:28.120 Their appetite for things is awful. 1.00

01:02:31.240 I just feel like something terrible is going to happen at some point.

01:02:35.380 And it disappoints me to see the likes of Forrest Griffin,

01:02:37.820 that was a big player in solidifying the UFC as a brand,

01:02:41.280 catching these dudes as they're falling on the floor.

01:02:43.860 And who are these guys?

01:02:44.900 Like you said,

01:02:45.540 they're probably guys that if they're not doing this,

01:02:47.440 they're doing another job that they hate.

01:02:48.940 So they might as well get a bit of fame and a bit of fortune and maybe,

01:02:52.500 you know,

01:02:52.720 a couple of trips to Vegas and what's a slap around the face to a guy that

01:02:56.280 doesn't care much about his life anyway?

01:02:57.980 I just can't get into the mentality of it.

01:03:00.000 I really struggle to understand it.

01:03:02.060 Yeah.

01:03:02.420 It's to me,

01:03:03.720 it's something that I,

01:03:05.900 the only people would be into it is if you have a gratuitous love of

01:03:10.360 watching people getting hurt.

01:03:11.820 that to me is the only real upshot of that sport because there's no real

01:03:18.700 skill involved in it.

01:03:20.720 No,

01:03:21.020 none at all.

01:03:22.040 None at all.

01:03:23.060 I mean,

01:03:23.540 you literally stand and wait to receive the shot.

01:03:25.720 But the thing is like,

01:03:26.460 this is where we are,

01:03:28.060 I suppose,

01:03:28.360 degrading a little bit as a species because there is an appetite for that.

01:03:32.320 You know,

01:03:32.640 like this,

01:03:33.080 like this,

01:03:33.600 this hunt sabotage is going on up and down the country at weekends because

01:03:36.880 people are still trying to fox hunt.

01:03:38.660 Come on.

01:03:39.380 You know what I mean?

01:03:40.060 Like,

01:03:40.520 like taking pleasure,

01:03:41.820 in something else's pain is an odd and sick mentality.

01:03:46.060 I think when I'm watching martial arts,

01:03:48.560 I'm not going,

01:03:49.200 Oh man,

01:03:49.980 that's a,

01:03:50.440 that's a,

01:03:50.980 that's a bad elbow.

01:03:52.100 Get him again,

01:03:52.620 get him again with that.

01:03:53.540 I'm appreciating the elbow as a striking weapon,

01:03:56.120 but I'm also appreciating the guy on the bottom trying to defend that

01:03:58.860 elbow and what he's trying to do to get out of it.

01:04:01.180 If you,

01:04:01.820 if you turn mixed martial arts into power slap and you've got two people to

01:04:04.960 walk into the center of the cage and just take one shot after the next

01:04:08.260 at one another with no defense,

01:04:10.320 like that would never have become,

01:04:11.820 I'm a legitimate sport back in 1995 or 2005 or whatever.

01:04:17.060 Do you think this is where TikTok meets combat sports?

01:04:21.060 So do you see what I mean?

01:04:23.040 Because in 40 seconds,

01:04:24.180 you watch someone get slapped on the floor and then pass out or whatever,

01:04:28.400 and then you move on to the next one.

01:04:29.820 Yeah.

01:04:30.420 And that is,

01:04:31.120 it is,

01:04:31.840 it is that 15 second attention span,

01:04:34.140 isn't it?

01:04:34.880 You probably remember when,

01:04:36.060 when the you've been tangoed adverts came out and they had to ban them

01:04:39.500 because kids were walking up to one another and tangoing each other at

01:04:42.680 school.

01:04:43.240 And as kids were like,

01:04:44.300 Oh,

01:04:44.460 this is a bit of fun.

01:04:45.240 And I've seen it on TV slap.

01:04:47.240 Like people were genuinely getting hurt doing that at school.

01:04:49.960 I remember a couple of kids had to go to the hospital getting slapped

01:04:52.500 unconscious. 0.98

01:04:53.940 Like sucker, 0.99

01:04:54.920 sucker slaps. 0.72

01:04:55.800 We see that on, 0.99

01:04:56.620 on social media all the time.

01:04:58.820 And now we're just moving in a direction that I feel like we should be a

01:05:02.780 bit more conscious of.

01:05:03.660 And I don't feel like power slap is helping in any way.

01:05:06.600 All right.

01:05:06.820 Well,

01:05:06.980 we've slagged off the UFC and Dana White enough.

01:05:10.100 He's still one of my dream guests and I'd love to talk to him about this

01:05:12.860 stuff because I have a fantastic conversation with him.

01:05:15.000 He's a very,

01:05:15.520 very interesting individual.

01:05:16.480 I really respect him a lot in what he's,

01:05:17.160 he's achieved,

01:05:17.840 but this is probably going to come up in one of his press conferences and

01:05:20.700 we're all going to be in the firing line.

01:05:22.900 You know,

01:05:23.480 one of the things I think makes MMA incredibly exciting and,

01:05:28.820 this is actually something that Dana has talked about,

01:05:31.720 which is you never know what the outcome is going to be.

01:05:35.140 If you watch Man U play Stevenage,

01:05:37.860 it can be exciting,

01:05:38.980 but generally speaking,

01:05:40.100 Man U are going to,

01:05:41.060 Man U is going to be 4-0 and it's going to be a bit of a boring game.

01:05:45.140 But look at,

01:05:46.280 I mean,

01:05:46.720 and this is a British fighter who was a champion in the UFC now,

01:05:49.900 Leon,

01:05:50.180 Leon Edwards,

01:05:51.000 right?

01:05:51.880 Fighting Kamaru Usman,

01:05:53.540 who again,

01:05:54.340 as an outsider was much better on the night and,

01:05:56.980 and probably is a better fighter.

01:05:58.180 Some people would argue five rounds.

01:06:01.800 Leon is struggling.

01:06:02.920 Most of them,

01:06:03.500 he's still doing great.

01:06:04.720 I mean,

01:06:04.920 he's fighting and doing great,

01:06:06.340 but by round five,

01:06:07.660 you're going,

01:06:08.140 look,

01:06:08.440 I mean,

01:06:08.780 you've done,

01:06:09.280 you've done a really good job.

01:06:10.200 You've done your best maybe,

01:06:11.280 but Kamaru Usman is the true champion,

01:06:13.640 blah,

01:06:13.820 blah,

01:06:13.960 blah,

01:06:14.160 blah,

01:06:14.360 blah.

01:06:14.740 And then one kick and it,

01:06:17.380 and he's champion just like that.

01:06:20.000 That,

01:06:20.680 I think is the thing that makes it so exciting is you just don't know who's going to

01:06:24.580 win.

01:06:24.760 And like you said,

01:06:26.420 you had a puncher's chance against GSP,

01:06:28.700 who again,

01:06:29.240 you thought was a better fighter than you.

01:06:30.640 Yeah,

01:06:30.800 for sure.

01:06:31.240 He absolutely was.

01:06:31.900 He was a better fighter than Matt Serra,

01:06:33.340 but Matt Serra landed that punch that,

01:06:35.220 you know,

01:06:35.420 that,

01:06:35.560 that opportunity.

01:06:36.600 Yeah.

01:06:36.880 It is a very,

01:06:37.520 very chaotic sport,

01:06:38.940 very crazy sport to try and predict.

01:06:40.620 My,

01:06:40.740 my predictions for fights are so terrible.

01:06:42.620 I just generally,

01:06:44.700 I've realized that over the past few years doing the,

01:06:46.840 the picks podcast and stuff.

01:06:48.580 It is like,

01:06:49.500 I,

01:06:49.780 I kind of,

01:06:50.240 what I realize is I,

01:06:51.320 I always side with the underdog and I kind of get drawn into a possible

01:06:54.140 narrative like John Jones coming back as the greatest heavyweight of all

01:06:57.500 time.

01:06:57.780 I'm fully on board with that narrative and I feel like it could possibly

01:07:00.820 happen,

01:07:01.180 but it also might not like Cyril Gant might come out and take him down and,

01:07:05.100 and you know,

01:07:06.160 pin him from top position,

01:07:07.220 being a big,

01:07:07.700 strong heavyweight that's improved his ground game since the Francis Ngannou fight.

01:07:11.020 And he might dominate on the floor and that would be a huge surprise.

01:07:14.320 Just as it was a surprise when Francis Ngannou came out and did it to Cyril.

01:07:17.660 People didn't expect him to do it.

01:07:19.600 Like you can never predict what's going to happen in mixed martial arts and be

01:07:22.920 a hundred percent certain.

01:07:24.100 Anyone that bets on it,

01:07:25.020 I think he's crazy because it just seems like an easy way of throwing money out

01:07:29.520 the window to me because you just literally never know what's going to

01:07:32.400 happen.

01:07:33.240 Like it's one of the reasons why he's exciting,

01:07:35.920 of course,

01:07:36.480 is the unpredictability,

01:07:37.500 but you also got to remember like your analogy with,

01:07:40.420 with Manchester United is the same with boxing,

01:07:42.440 right?

01:07:42.620 If you see Canelo fight,

01:07:43.820 the majority of the time you expect him to beat them fairly soundly and,

01:07:47.500 and probably stop them.

01:07:49.080 And,

01:07:49.320 and if we look at what's most likely going to happen,

01:07:51.920 well,

01:07:52.020 he's either going to knock him out,

01:07:53.000 he's going to stop him on cuts or he's going to beat him by decision.

01:07:56.560 That's three options in mixed martial arts. 0.69

01:07:58.420 How many options are there,

01:07:59.620 right?

01:07:59.800 You could get caught with the flying knee just as you can get caught with the

01:08:02.180 flying arm bar.

01:08:03.180 You can get taken down and hit with an elbow. 0.83

01:08:05.020 You can get taken down and submitted. 1.00

01:08:06.580 You can get kicked in the head. 1.00

01:08:07.800 You can get choked out.

01:08:09.820 There are so many ways to lose in mixed martial arts that it's difficult to

01:08:13.000 predict how someone's going to win.

01:08:14.540 And that for me is why it's so exciting.

01:08:16.700 And we also don't know what's going on in people's training camps.

01:08:19.800 Like what has John Jones been doing for three years?

01:08:22.480 You know,

01:08:22.920 has he been working really,

01:08:24.220 really hard on his leg locks?

01:08:26.260 He might come back as a leg lock specialist,

01:08:27.820 but he's kept it quite tight to his chest and not told anybody.

01:08:31.720 I,

01:08:31.880 I love the fact that mixed martial arts is so open-ended when it comes to the

01:08:36.180 fights and,

01:08:37.140 and,

01:08:37.480 and I accept the fact that I'm going to have a good idea of what I think

01:08:40.280 might happen and be completely proven wrong when it comes to Saturday night.

01:08:43.840 Yeah.

01:08:44.320 It's exciting.

01:08:45.000 And it is.

01:08:45.760 And you mentioned the sort of rooting for the underdog.

01:08:48.280 And I,

01:08:49.080 again,

01:08:49.300 there's an outside,

01:08:50.040 I keep saying,

01:08:50.820 but I just,

01:08:51.280 I don't want people to think that I'm like,

01:08:52.680 I think I know what I'm talking about,

01:08:53.980 but watching the Volkanovski fight recently.

01:08:56.960 And I was talking to Rogan about this because he did this fight companion and

01:09:01.060 they were all certain Volkanovski had won.

01:09:04.040 And I was like,

01:09:04.880 I think most people thought he'd won because he was the underdog and they

01:09:08.180 wanted him to win.

01:09:09.900 If you looked at it objectively,

01:09:11.040 I think it was a very close fight.

01:09:12.640 Actually,

01:09:13.180 the,

01:09:13.640 what's his face?

01:09:15.900 Makachev is Islam. 0.97

01:09:17.260 I wouldn't say that to his face either.

01:09:19.700 Islam Makachev actually probably edged for me. 0.74

01:09:23.720 But it's that excitement,

01:09:25.020 isn't it?

01:09:25.300 Of like rooting for the underdog,

01:09:27.000 hoping that he can win as well.

01:09:29.360 Absolutely.

01:09:29.940 And,

01:09:30.280 you know,

01:09:30.520 I agree.

01:09:31.220 I feel like Makachev won the fight and I feel like Volkanovski knew that

01:09:34.500 Makachev won as well.

01:09:35.900 Like in his post-fight interview,

01:09:37.620 you know,

01:09:38.000 he mentioned about the fact that he left it too late.

01:09:40.300 I feel like now Volkanovski knows that he can beat Makachev if he gets the

01:09:44.400 rematch,

01:09:44.980 but I feel like he,

01:09:46.260 he felt beaten on the night.

01:09:47.720 I feel like Makachev had done enough to beat him.

01:09:50.200 He didn't feel beaten up,

01:09:51.520 but he felt he was defeated.

01:09:53.220 There's no doubt about it in my eyes,

01:09:55.140 but I do think in the rematch,

01:09:56.620 Volkanovski is going to have a lot more confidence based on that first fight.

01:10:00.000 And I do think it would be a different,

01:10:01.900 a different performance.

01:10:02.260 Is it going to be a rematch?

01:10:03.540 I think so.

01:10:04.260 I think so.

01:10:04.840 And I think because obviously Joe Rogan's got such a huge voice in the

01:10:08.060 sport,

01:10:08.380 the fact that he said he thought Volk won.

01:10:10.460 And then the fact that Volk came out afterwards and was like,

01:10:12.900 yeah,

01:10:13.020 I won three rounds,

01:10:13.900 no doubt.

01:10:14.940 Like just creating that narrative gets you a bit closer to the opportunity.

01:10:18.600 And for sure,

01:10:19.400 I think he'll get his opportunity again.

01:10:21.320 Dan,

01:10:21.900 top five fighters.

01:10:23.220 Who are they and why?

01:10:24.580 Oh,

01:10:24.940 in just mixed martial arts?

01:10:26.240 In just mixed martial arts.

01:10:27.300 So we can do boxing as well,

01:10:28.640 but let's just stick to mixed martial arts for the moment.

01:10:30.620 And then we can do boxing afterwards.

01:10:32.420 Well,

01:10:32.600 we've got to put John Jones up there.

01:10:33.820 I'm very much feeling like he might be the greatest talent that we've seen in the

01:10:37.560 sport so far.

01:10:39.160 Conor McGregor,

01:10:39.780 you have to say just purely because of how he took command of the divisions that

01:10:43.840 he was in.

01:10:44.640 He changed the sport for the benefit of everybody.

01:10:46.700 And I mean,

01:10:49.460 the composure that he showed in high pressure situations where he really shouldn't win was unlike anybody else I've ever seen.

01:10:58.860 After that,

01:10:59.700 I mean,

01:11:00.720 Jose Aldo is always one of my favorites.

01:11:03.100 You know,

01:11:03.620 you look back at his fights when he was in the WEC before he came over,

01:11:07.100 became UFC champion.

01:11:08.440 He was just,

01:11:09.020 he was just spectacular.

01:11:10.840 Every single range,

01:11:12.040 Jose Aldo is fantastic at.

01:11:13.580 And again,

01:11:14.080 you know,

01:11:14.340 if he fought McGregor a couple more times,

01:11:16.040 I feel like he'd have probably beaten him a couple of times.

01:11:18.560 But the circumstance of that first fight was,

01:11:20.660 was so perfect for McGregor that Aldo was overextended.

01:11:24.680 But it takes away from the fact that Aldo is probably one of the best fighters that we've ever seen.

01:11:28.620 And Demetrius Johnson as well,

01:11:30.140 you know,

01:11:30.400 another fighter.

01:11:33.180 After that,

01:11:33.800 it's difficult because,

01:11:34.700 because there are lots of fighters that have had a big impact on the sport,

01:11:37.140 but maybe not have been the best fighters.

01:11:39.400 Like Randy Couture had such a massive impact.

01:11:41.460 BJ Penn had a massive impact.

01:11:43.960 But you put them in mixed martial arts now,

01:11:45.960 and we can see how far behind they are.

01:11:48.180 Even with GSP,

01:11:49.260 you know,

01:11:49.480 GSP was,

01:11:50.320 was great for 2010.

01:11:52.120 When he came back and fought Bisping,

01:11:54.060 that,

01:11:54.340 you know,

01:11:54.900 he was a great version of himself.

01:11:56.960 But I feel like fighters are better now.

01:11:59.500 I do,

01:11:59.980 just generally.

01:12:00.540 I feel like there are wrestlers that can deal with GSP now.

01:12:03.120 And I feel like his striking was not necessarily where it needs to be to compete in mixed martial arts today.

01:12:10.060 So it's important to recognize the fighters that were great in the time that they were great.

01:12:15.800 But John Jones...

01:12:16.080 You didn't mention Anderson Silva.

01:12:17.900 You know,

01:12:18.740 Anderson was always one of my favorites.

01:12:21.500 I learned so much from him.

01:12:22.740 But I always felt like Anderson was a kickboxer in mixed martial arts.

01:12:27.100 And I know he had that triangle over Chael Son, 0.98

01:12:30.120 which I still watch back and squint my eyes at it sometimes.

01:12:33.520 Anderson was great,

01:12:36.300 but I never felt like he hit that well-roundedness that I would like to have seen from one of the all-time greats.

01:12:43.400 John Jones can do it everywhere.

01:12:45.260 You know,

01:12:45.560 Valentina Shevchenko can fight you anywhere. 1.00

01:12:47.680 She's incredible.

01:12:48.240 You know what I mean?

01:12:49.060 And for me,

01:12:49.820 that's what I'm looking for.

01:12:50.740 And I do,

01:12:51.840 to an extent,

01:12:52.820 shelve the personal stuff as well.

01:12:55.600 Like,

01:12:55.760 am I looking for a model human being?

01:12:57.480 I'm not.

01:12:58.060 If I am,

01:12:58.580 I'm not looking at John Jones.

01:13:00.180 But if I'm looking at the best talent that we've ever seen in mixed martial arts,

01:13:03.020 I can't think of anyone that comes close to him.

01:13:04.840 Khabib?

01:13:07.680 See,

01:13:08.040 this is where I get loads of heat in the comments.

01:13:10.860 Khabib was amazing at wrestling,

01:13:12.400 but I never saw him really step too much outside of what he was very,

01:13:15.320 very good at.

01:13:16.340 Like,

01:13:16.740 his striking was all right.

01:13:18.660 It was effective at times,

01:13:19.800 but it was effective because his wrestling was so good,

01:13:22.060 right?

01:13:22.760 Like,

01:13:22.960 the shot that he landed on McGregor,

01:13:24.200 the overhand,

01:13:24.800 he would have never landed that in a kickboxing match because McGregor wouldn't be expecting the takedown.

01:13:28.600 So it's circumstantial,

01:13:30.780 right?

01:13:31.240 And the other thing as well is,

01:13:32.460 like,

01:13:32.620 you look at the,

01:13:33.500 like,

01:13:33.760 I think John Jones' last,

01:13:35.060 what,

01:13:35.580 12 fights have all been world title fights.

01:13:38.640 Like,

01:13:38.780 Khabib didn't defend his belt too many times.

01:13:40.760 And it's probably the right thing to do because the likes of Charles Oliveira coming through could have quite easily been,

01:13:45.680 you know,

01:13:45.920 been the person to catch him.

01:13:48.120 I feel like Makhachev's probably going to do the same thing,

01:13:50.320 right?

01:13:50.560 He's probably going to defend his belt once,

01:13:52.080 maybe move up to welterweight and fight there once and then retire.

01:13:55.220 I like the fighters that stick around long enough to experience.

01:13:58.600 their defeats.

01:13:59.840 Well,

01:14:00.020 speaking of getting,

01:14:00.920 getting hate in the comments,

01:14:04.380 I had a very controversial thought the other day,

01:14:06.900 which was,

01:14:07.900 is it possible that Makhachev is actually better than Khabib?

01:14:11.020 Because he is more rounded.

01:14:12.820 His striking is really good.

01:14:16.160 And like you say,

01:14:17.400 Khabib was able to strike with people because everyone was terrified of getting taken down. 0.93

01:14:21.760 They had to worry about that so much.

01:14:23.260 Whereas Makhachev has both.

01:14:25.400 He has incredible wrestling and he can strike.

01:14:27.740 And we saw that with Volkanovski,

01:14:29.060 didn't we?

01:14:29.280 Yeah.

01:14:29.440 I think Makhachev is definitely the mark two version of Khabib. 1.00

01:14:35.400 And honestly,

01:14:36.080 I feel like that was,

01:14:37.020 I feel like that was father's plan.

01:14:38.900 You know,

01:14:39.120 they talk about that,

01:14:40.120 about Abdulmanap's plan.

01:14:41.660 I always feel like he saw Makhachev as being the,

01:14:45.180 you know,

01:14:45.500 the second coming of Khabib. 1.00

01:14:47.400 Khabib served the purpose of establishing that team,

01:14:50.200 being dominant in the lightweight division,

01:14:52.120 remaining undefeated,

01:14:53.120 which of course in mixed martial arts is very difficult.

01:14:56.300 Again,

01:14:56.700 if people stay around for long enough though,

01:14:58.260 they don't keep that undefeated record because there's always somebody in mixed martial arts that can beat you.

01:15:02.980 And I feel like Khabib did the right work to get that team's presence in the sport to a point where Makhachev can then step in and take over as the better version.

01:15:13.140 And I do feel like he is the better version for sure.

01:15:16.400 Certainly in the striking ranges.

01:15:18.560 Like he's a very,

01:15:19.780 very strong southpaw.

01:15:20.960 He's got a great left kick.

01:15:22.580 We've seen his boxing improved in the Oliveira fight as well.

01:15:25.740 I see big improvements from Makhachev.

01:15:28.020 But again,

01:15:28.740 a controversial opinion.

01:15:30.100 The reason why Makhachev's striking is good is because he's got a loss on his record by knockout.

01:15:34.720 Right?

01:15:35.280 If he'd have not got knocked out earlier in his UFC career,

01:15:38.640 he wouldn't have taken the time to really refine his striking like he did.

01:15:42.940 Right?

01:15:43.480 My wrestling wouldn't have improved had I not been taken down and dominated on the floor so many times.

01:15:48.260 Right?

01:15:48.720 You react to the stimulus that you get.

01:15:50.860 So undefeated fighters,

01:15:51.980 they never really reach their full potential because they never explore their full potential in my opinion.

01:15:56.720 And what do you make of this,

01:15:58.280 the YouTube fighters,

01:16:00.680 shall we say?

01:16:01.600 Because there's a lot of people,

01:16:03.260 you know,

01:16:03.480 the boxing purists,

01:16:04.800 the fight purists,

01:16:06.220 a lot of boxers who get really upset at it because they're like,

01:16:10.240 well,

01:16:10.380 I've trained all my life.

01:16:11.800 I'm brilliant at what I do.

01:16:13.780 I don't get a tenth of the money.

01:16:16.100 I don't get nearly any of the acclaim.

01:16:18.880 This isn't fair.

01:16:20.920 Got to learn from it,

01:16:21.960 haven't you?

01:16:22.680 You've got to learn from it.

01:16:24.580 There's clearly something like Jake Paul is clearly doing something right.

01:16:27.720 Right?

01:16:27.880 He's built an audience.

01:16:29.340 His audience have attached themselves to him.

01:16:32.640 They're along for his journey.

01:16:34.180 They're not bothered whether he's a boxer.

01:16:36.120 He could be an American football player or a downhill skier or whatever he wanted.

01:16:39.720 The people that are following him are there for his journey.

01:16:42.240 That's what he did,

01:16:43.060 right?

01:16:43.480 He connected to an audience and allowed them to understand the life that he's living.

01:16:49.640 So any boxers,

01:16:50.500 any people that are complaining about it are not understanding the research that he's done for them.

01:16:55.540 Like make yourself available to the fans.

01:16:58.060 That's ultimately why he's making good money is because he's taking people along the journey with him.

01:17:02.900 And he's had these people that have grown up since he was on the Disney channel,

01:17:06.120 right?

01:17:06.360 So they've been on his journey all the way along.

01:17:08.740 He just so happens to be a boxer now.

01:17:10.480 They don't care whether he's a boxer or not.

01:17:12.380 The boxing community care whether he's a boxer or not.

01:17:14.860 But why?

01:17:15.960 Because he's making loads of money.

01:17:17.640 A proposal for you,

01:17:18.780 mate.

01:17:18.960 When we get to a million sons,

01:17:20.780 why don't you fight Dan?

01:17:23.180 I can get that Jake Paul fight match.

01:17:25.180 You know what?

01:17:27.160 There's a lot of people in comedy who would love to see that.

01:17:29.860 It's funny because actually this is the situation quite often in comedy as well.

01:17:34.380 But you've got comedians who are grinding away on the circuit for years and years and years.

01:17:38.000 And they're very good at what they do, stand-up.

01:17:39.860 And then they see some guy, you know, Mo Gilligan is a good example of this.

01:17:43.380 Someone who just did stuff online and now he's massive.

01:17:46.000 And they're like, oh, he's not a real comedian.

01:17:47.760 And you go, he's got a million followers.

01:17:49.460 And you're playing the dog and duck on a Thursday night to 20 people. 1.00

01:17:52.360 What the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

01:17:53.720 You know, Dan, it's been an absolute fascinating conversation. 0.99

01:17:57.800 Thanks so much for coming on.

01:17:59.120 Big fan of your breakdowns, particularly on Full Reptile.

01:18:01.740 Because as you say, you don't always get the predictions right.

01:18:04.260 But I actually think this is why UFC commentary and analysis or MMA commentary and analysis,

01:18:09.740 I should say, is such a big niche now.

01:18:12.460 And it's growing.

01:18:13.240 And you are doing it.

01:18:14.100 And Charles Sonnen is doing it.

01:18:15.220 And a bunch of other people are doing it.

01:18:16.800 Because for the layman, we don't understand a lot of what, you know, once it hits the ground,

01:18:21.380 you're like, oh, what's he doing there?

01:18:23.620 But explaining the mechanics of the sport and why people are doing certain things is invaluable.

01:18:29.380 So I'm a big fan of yours, big fan of your channel.

01:18:31.720 Thank you so much for coming on.

01:18:33.920 Before we let you go, as you know, we always finish with the same question,

01:18:37.180 which is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be?

01:18:43.580 That is a good question to finish on.

01:18:46.480 We're not talking enough about the people that are taking advantage of us as a society, ultimately.

01:18:54.340 Like there are a few people online, but YouTube censorship is terrible right now.

01:18:58.460 Online censorship is terrible right now, no matter what social media platform you're on.

01:19:03.220 There's a small number of people taking advantage of the vast majority of the Earth's population.

01:19:08.200 And we just, we don't talk about it.

01:19:09.720 We don't seem to talk about it.

01:19:10.720 We try and talk about it and then we get shut down. 0.97

01:19:12.540 And there's a lot of, I wish I had a better word, but fuckery is the only one I can think of. 0.90

01:19:17.940 In politics, in business, in every industry, there are a few people that are taking advantage of everybody. 0.77

01:19:23.020 And we just don't say anything.

01:19:24.980 We just don't say anything because the same within the UFC.

01:19:27.640 If you say something, you get your media credentials taken away.

01:19:30.260 You get your opportunities taken away.

01:19:31.940 If you speak out about the UFC, you get your opportunity.

01:19:34.440 You know what I mean?

01:19:34.920 It's like these mechanisms to shut people down and everybody is treating, is acting like they've already been shut down before they've even spoken.

01:19:43.440 We need to start speaking out against the corruption that we're seeing in our world.

01:19:48.340 I feel like that's not being talked about enough.

01:19:50.320 It's present on a daily basis in my eyes and it's people trying to ignore it and just get on with their lives and we can't.

01:19:57.220 Can you give us more detail?

01:19:58.500 Like who are you talking about?

01:20:00.300 Well, I mean, obviously you have a lot of people that follow your podcast due to the political stuff that you talk about.

01:20:06.100 I mean, you look at the PPE scandal that's going on at the moment.

01:20:08.820 One of my favourite YouTubers is Dr. John Campbell.

01:20:12.040 If you don't listen to him, everybody should listen to him.

01:20:14.340 The things that he's uncovering on a daily basis, like people are lying to us.

01:20:19.240 People are lying to us and slowly killing us off as well in lots of different ways,

01:20:24.460 whether it's pollution or global warming or medicine or whatever.

01:20:28.140 You know what I mean?

01:20:28.880 I mean, the pandemic was a big, like that was a big wake-up call, I think, for a lot of people.

01:20:34.700 Absolutely.

01:20:35.140 It's like you're being told stuff and you're going, well, three years ago you said that masks don't work.

01:20:39.860 Now they work all of a sudden?

01:20:41.040 Absolutely.

01:20:41.420 When did that happen?

01:20:42.640 Right.

01:20:42.940 And then we go from celebrating the NHS and thanking their hard work and their diligence and their dedication to their job.

01:20:50.500 And then the media then start to turn us against them because they're striking, because the NHS is under attack.

01:20:56.400 Like, the NHS is definitely under attack.

01:20:58.920 It's, you know, it's being defunded so they can sell it off private and privatise it.

01:21:03.260 And that's going to affect every single one of us.

01:21:05.320 Like, the NHS kept my granddad alive for many, many years.

01:21:08.660 And I've travelled all around the world.

01:21:10.920 I've lived in the US.

01:21:11.780 I've lived without free healthcare.

01:21:15.240 It's not a world that we want to live in.

01:21:17.980 Like, we don't want to live in a country that charges people when they're sick.

01:21:22.220 Like, you're not sick, you're a customer.

01:21:24.540 And that's a terrifying circumstance to put people in.

01:21:27.720 Like, cost of living crisis is a terrible phrase.

01:21:31.900 Awful phrase.

01:21:32.920 The cost of living.

01:21:34.480 Like, we're trapped in a framework right now that we are not even aware of, struggling to get out of it.

01:21:40.780 And not enough people are talking about it in my eyes.

01:21:43.720 Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:21:45.740 It was an absolute pleasure.

01:21:47.740 If people want to find you online, if they want to see your work, where is the best place to do that?

01:21:51.780 Well, YouTube, you can just search my name, Dan Hardy, or I'm on social media, Dan Hardy MMA, Instagram and Twitter and wherever else.

01:21:59.120 I'm always under the same name.

01:22:01.620 And everyone should check out Full Reptile, your YouTube channel as well.

01:22:04.600 Before we let you go, your better half is here.

01:22:07.560 We talked about all the bruises on her face and stuff.

01:22:10.040 But she's about to fight in the UFC here in London, isn't she?

01:22:13.020 Yes.

01:22:13.280 Tell us about her because she's, I think, first up on the card.

01:22:16.120 So people can check her out early in the night. 0.64

01:22:17.940 Yeah.

01:22:18.280 Well, Veronica Macedo is what people will know.

01:22:20.640 Her new name is now Veronica Hardy.

01:22:22.480 We've got marriages before Christmas.

01:22:24.320 So this is her first fight back after three years out.

01:22:26.680 She's been working through some injuries and she's tip top and strong right now.

01:22:30.360 And she's going into UFC London March 18th.

01:22:33.520 So we're very, very excited for her.

01:22:35.820 Very different for me to be going to UFC London and not think somebody's going to punch me in the face.

01:22:39.700 A bit more pressure to be on the outside watching somebody trying to punch her.

01:22:43.780 But she's very well prepared and I'm excited for her.

01:22:46.700 And is it, as a man, is it a bit weird to see your woman, like, fighting and getting punched in the face?

01:22:53.080 Is there a part?

01:22:53.660 She's obviously a professional fighter and you knew that. 1.00

01:22:55.780 But is there, like, a weird thing going on there?

01:22:58.100 Is that difficult?

01:22:59.680 Because you've, I imagine, got protective instincts.

01:23:02.120 You want to, that's what you're supposed to do, right?

01:23:03.980 Absolutely.

01:23:04.480 Yeah, absolutely.

01:23:04.920 It's weird watching sparring sometimes because I do want to get in there and kind of sometimes, you know, a bit two-on-one is a bit unfair.

01:23:11.620 But it is weird.

01:23:13.980 It's more strange, the reactions I get from other people as we're walking down the street, if she has got a black eye or, you know, a bruise or whatever.

01:23:22.520 Because people obviously immediately assume that I'm responsible for it.

01:23:26.320 And, you know, she's sparring hard with good fighters at the moment. 0.90

01:23:31.160 So you're going to get bumps and bruises and stuff.

01:23:33.240 And that's a new challenge for me.

01:23:35.120 Because for me, it was always, I'm fighting, I've got bruises on my face, so people don't really question it.

01:23:39.800 Or I'm with my friends and they're all fighters and they're all male and no one really questions it, you know.

01:23:44.920 But a female fighter, they do get different interactions with the public, you could say. 1.00

01:23:51.160 Well, Dan, thanks so much for coming on.

01:23:53.180 It's been an absolute pleasure.

01:23:54.500 Everyone should check out your YouTube channel for Reptile and find you on all socials.

01:23:58.020 Thank you.

01:23:58.460 We'll ask you a couple of questions from our locals in a second that only they will get to see.

01:24:02.220 But for now, thank you.

01:24:03.240 Thank you for watching and listening.

01:24:04.800 We'll see you very soon with another brilliant episode.

01:24:07.080 Won't be quite like this, but we'll be as equally brilliant.

01:24:10.420 And take care and see you soon.

01:24:11.560 And for those of you who like your Trigger No Retreat, On The Go, it's also available as a podcast.

01:24:16.200 Take care and see you soon, guys.

01:24:17.840 For someone who's never followed MMA or the UFC, what would you say would be a good intro to see if you're interested in it?

01:24:27.580 We'll be right back.

01:24:57.580 The Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:24:59.520 Get tickets at Mirvish.com.

TRIGGERnometry - March 02, 2023

Dan Hardy OPENS UP About Fighting, UFC Beef and Power Slap

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