TRIGGERnometry - Darren Grimes Speaks Out on Police Investigation

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00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:38.740 I'm Constantin Kissin.

00:00:39.960 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:45.700 I don't know that it gets any more fascinating than the guest we have for you today.

00:00:49.740 He's a conservative commentator who's currently being investigated by the Metropolitan Police

00:00:54.840 for an interview he did with someone else for words that that someone else said.

00:00:59.500 Darren Grimes, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:01.680 Thank you so much for having us. I'm a massive fan of the show, so it's an honor.

00:01:05.520 It's very kind of you to say, and it's a pleasure to have you here, although I think we'd all wish the circumstances were slightly different.

00:01:11.000 Quite, yes. I wish you were getting us on for me views and not for the fact that I'm being investigated by the coppers.

00:01:16.800 Well, your views are very problematic, apparently, or your lack of them in that particular instance.

00:01:22.420 But look, before we get into it, I think a lot of people who will be watching this and listening to this will care very deeply about freedom of speech.

00:01:28.740 But it'll be interesting just for people who may be not familiar with your background to tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are.

00:01:36.220 What has been the journey that leads you to this very strange situation here?

00:01:39.900 Well, it's a bit of a roller coaster, to be honest. I'm from County Durham, a single parent family.

00:01:48.360 I wasn't from a political household at all. Actually, my family grew up with Channel 4 News on in the background.

00:01:54.940 So it's an absolute wonder I'm not a communist. But I, as I say, I wasn't political remotely. I went into hairdressing after school.

00:02:05.200 I qualified as a hairdresser. And then after that, after gaining some confidence and experience, I was actually quite badly bullied at school for being gay, essentially, in an ex-mining community.

00:02:19.140 And that had a really profound impact upon my confidence. So hairdressing, and I get a lot of sneering on Twitter when people become aware of this.

00:02:30.880 How dare he have an opinion on politics when he trains to become a hairdresser?

00:02:36.060 And actually, I'm so grateful that I did that because it really did give me the confidence and the ability to actually speak to people, for one.

00:02:44.880 The idea that I could be sat doing an interview like this with the two of you right now would be absolutely mad.

00:02:52.720 I would tell you to go sling your hook because you're clearly off your rocker.

00:02:56.280 And I went off to Brighton University after that.

00:03:00.720 And I did fashion and business studies. Again, a source of much contention with Twitter.

00:03:05.580 They can't stand the fact that someone would have right of centre views who did these things, which are traditionally aligned with the left.

00:03:15.000 You know, a creative degree at Brighton University.

00:03:17.980 I campaigned to leave the EU whilst at Brighton.

00:03:21.500 How did that go down?

00:03:22.640 Oh, someone actually spat in my face at one point on the street in Brighton.

00:03:26.840 It was quite something.

00:03:28.660 So that gave us a bit of fortitude, I think, as well, as far as campaign is concerned.

00:03:32.640 And after, so actually, I should go back ever so slightly.

00:03:37.560 Whilst at Brighton, I was a Liberal Democrat and I campaigned and ran the digital side of Norman Lamb's leadership campaign.

00:03:46.180 Wow.

00:03:46.700 Yeah.

00:03:47.200 And that was my first real foray, sort of footsteps into politics.

00:03:52.960 And I sort of, I developed the bug at that point.

00:03:56.180 I was quite interested in the coalition government, supportive of same-sex marriage.

00:04:00.780 That was the first bill I followed through both Houses of Parliament.

00:04:05.420 And from then, I think I just became really interested in it.

00:04:08.600 And I think the reason I joined the Lib Dems, ultimately, was because I thought, right, my mother is somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun.

00:04:16.420 So this must mean that I am a Liberal because I disagree with my mother.

00:04:21.140 And actually, it transpires we agree on quite a lot.

00:04:23.660 And that was just a sort of, you know, young person rebelling against their parents' politics.

00:04:30.020 So you're not to the right of Attila the Hun.

00:04:31.420 I'm not to the right of Attila the Hun.

00:04:31.460 You're exactly where Attila the Hun was.

00:04:33.560 Well, perhaps.

00:04:34.620 Big fan of his policies.

00:04:35.960 Yeah.

00:04:36.520 In the eyes of many Liberals as well.

00:04:38.260 In the eyes of them, yes, I absolutely would be, definitely.

00:04:41.100 But after Norman lost the leadership, I left the Liberal Democrats.

00:04:49.080 I thought, I can't really support a Social Democrat like Tim Farron, who did win the leadership.

00:04:54.660 Now, at that point, whilst I was a Lib Dem, I've always been, I've always known that I am a traditional Liberal in the sense of classically Liberal.

00:05:03.260 Now, I have, as I get older, moved more conservative.

00:05:07.720 That's absolutely true in the party sense and in the traditional philosophical sense.

00:05:13.200 And I left the Lib Dems and a guy who worked at Vote Leave said, you should set up a campaign called Liberal Leave.

00:05:24.100 And I said, I'm sorry, mate.

00:05:25.460 I've actually, you know, I've left the Lib Dems.

00:05:28.140 I'm not, I can't do that anymore.

00:05:29.900 And we said our goodbyes.

00:05:31.420 And a mate of mine said, well, why don't you set up a campaign which can actually put across that classically Liberal case for Brexit?

00:05:41.320 Because no one's going to be making that argument.

00:05:43.760 You know, Vote Leave are very much going to be the anti-immigration argument and not really talk about the benefits from a classically Liberal point of view.

00:05:51.620 And really make the case that the European Union has not been a vessel for classical liberalism.

00:05:57.600 And actually, for a lot of people, anti it.

00:06:01.420 So I set up a campaign called Believe.

00:06:05.380 And that was an explosion, really, of doing media and really throwing in the deep end.

00:06:14.160 And, you know, I definitely, as I say, do not have a background in politics.

00:06:17.960 So that was a bit sort of frightening.

00:06:21.060 I'm not going to lie.

00:06:21.840 You know, I was in the green room on the night of the referendum itself at the BBC, probably the last time I'll get an invitation to do anything like that with the BBC.

00:06:32.120 But after that referendum, my life just changed beyond all recognition, really.

00:06:42.220 I really did experience what it's like to, I guess, really, really take the full fire of those who couldn't stand the fact that Leave had won the referendum.

00:06:57.080 And for Darren, I think, for all the reasons I set out earlier, you know, I am gay.

00:07:04.840 I'm from a working class background.

00:07:07.040 I do.

00:07:08.400 I did hairdressing.

00:07:09.780 I did a degree, well, dropped out of a degree, but enrolled in a degree that was creative industries.

00:07:18.280 And for all of those reasons, I think I do inspire a unique hatred from certain pockets of the liberal left.

00:07:25.540 Because I should be, I should be in their arena, you know, I really should be a product of the left.

00:07:32.860 But as we've seen with the 2019 general election result, a lot of people have said, well, actually, I don't belong to you.

00:07:39.980 Sling your hook.

00:07:41.400 So that's where I am now.

00:07:44.200 After the referendum and everything kicked off, I worked for Brexit Central for a couple of years and then went on to the Institute of Economic Affairs for a couple of years.

00:07:54.060 I know you've had a few people that work there from, interviewed on the show who are fantastic, love them to pieces.

00:08:01.480 That gave me more of a grounding and an understanding of my own views.

00:08:07.360 And then I set up my channel called Reasoned and it's been fun, shall we say.

00:08:13.820 But before we touch on that, you've obviously been no stranger to controversy.

00:08:17.580 It's not just a Brexit thing, but you got investigated by the Electoral Commission four times?

00:08:23.100 Three times.

00:08:23.900 Oh, there we go.

00:08:24.600 Oh, that changes everything.

00:08:25.920 Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:08:27.960 So the first time was a month after the referendum.

00:08:33.180 And they said, listen, you received all of this money from, well, actually, I should explain what actually happened during the referendum.

00:08:38.640 So a month before, Vote Leave had reached the maximum spend that they were permitted to actually spend in the EU referendum.

00:08:52.840 And they thought, right, are there any competent campaigns out there that we know, that we like, who could benefit from a donation?

00:09:03.120 Now, they sought permission from the Electoral Commission and they received advice that said Fishin' for Leave had received money for flotillas.

00:09:13.500 Do you remember Nigel Farage's, do you remember Nigel Farage's Fishin' for Leave event down the Thames when he was with Kate Hoey?

00:09:20.620 And Richard Branson had got in hot water because he was sticking his finger up at Fisherman.

00:09:29.520 And they had received advice that said, well, Fishin' for Leave received donations for that event.

00:09:38.300 So campaigns can make campaign-to-campaign donations.

00:09:42.160 So I thought, right, well, if it's tickety-boo with the regulator, crack on.

00:09:47.120 Of course, I want to be able for people to see my work.

00:09:50.600 It was the first time I was really producing political video content and graphics, animated graphics.

00:09:56.960 And I thought, well, if I can put money behind it, definitely I'm all for that.

00:10:01.780 So Vote Leave made a donation to my campaign.

00:10:05.220 It was £625,000.

00:10:08.680 The limit was £700,000 that an individual campaign could spend.

00:10:13.440 That wasn't the registered-designated campaign, the official-designated campaign, rather.

00:10:18.720 So I did that and Leave won the referendum.

00:10:24.160 A month later, BuzzFeed email.

00:10:28.460 Great.

00:10:28.760 Yeah.

00:10:29.360 Great journalism, BuzzFeed.

00:10:30.820 Bastion of journalism.

00:10:32.080 And BuzzFeed say, we found out that you received a donation from Vote Leave.

00:10:39.680 And I thought, what do you mean?

00:10:41.080 Found out?

00:10:41.920 You've gone on the Electoral Commission's website.

00:10:44.240 You've looked at the reported donations, which are obviously, they have to be posted on the Electoral Commission's website because it's regulated.

00:10:52.420 And I thought, you're making out, like, you've uncovered some deep, deep, dark secrets, when actually all you've done is gone on a website and look at Believe's donations.

00:11:03.700 So I didn't really think anything of it, but it was the first time I'd been investigated by any journalists.

00:11:10.320 So the Electoral Commission opened an investigation after BuzzFeed posted their story in the August of 2016.

00:11:18.640 Feels like a bloody lifetime ago now, I'll tell you.

00:11:22.600 And they found no wrongdoing.

00:11:26.240 So I thought, right, hunky-dory.

00:11:28.520 This was to become a vicious cycle.

00:11:31.280 This was to become a cycle that I would have to endure time and time again, where you have that initial anxiety and you think, uh-oh, what's going to happen here?

00:11:41.640 I come from a background in which I have very limited financial means.

00:11:47.520 You know, I don't have mummy and daddy that can introduce me to their lawyer friends and get me out of this mess.

00:11:53.840 I have to fight it myself.

00:11:57.320 And a few, it would have been in the 2017, I can't remember the exact date, but 2017, they come back for a second bite of the cherry.

00:12:06.680 Same issue.

00:12:07.380 So they kept investigating the same issue.

00:12:08.740 It was the same issue, yeah.

00:12:10.080 By this point, Vote Leave had published their accounts.

00:12:15.240 So the official designated campaign and the other campaigners as well, including Britain Stronger and Europe, posted their donations and their expenditure.

00:12:25.880 So by this point, all of the, everything's on the table, which you might argue the Electoral Commission should have waited until that point really to open an investigation at all instead of just jumping when BuzzFeed tell them to.

00:12:37.460 But anyway, putting that to one side, they said the same thing again.

00:12:43.080 Now to see here, me lord, go away, journalists, Guardian, BuzzFeed, stop rubbing your hands with glee.

00:12:51.580 You know, the referendum's not going to be overturned on this.

00:12:54.320 So they went away and now Julian Maugham QC of Foxkilling thing, he got involved.

00:13:03.760 He judicially reviewed with his good law project, the Electoral Commission's second decision.

00:13:10.120 And he said, how can they possibly find that there's nothing to see here?

00:13:15.400 So his judicial review forced, I say forced, the Electoral Commission took it upon themselves, in my eyes, to become part of the FBPE mob.

00:13:25.840 And for those that don't know, watching this, the FBPE are follow-back pro-Europe.

00:13:32.300 It's a Twitter clique, basically.

00:13:34.240 I have no idea what it's mutated into now that we've actually left the EU and it's quite clear that we're not going back in, thank God.

00:13:41.580 Suffice to say, they probably all love us.

00:13:43.860 They'll be delighted.

00:13:45.100 They'll be watching right now, I've no doubt.

00:13:46.840 So by that point, the Electoral Commission opened their third investigation.

00:13:54.260 And in my eyes, that was them becoming part of that mob.

00:13:58.940 That was them saying, you know, you had the temerity to get involved in this referendum.

00:14:04.040 You had the temerity to dare put your head above the parapets.

00:14:08.260 And bearing in mind, at the time of the referendum, I was 22.

00:14:12.360 So that was that.

00:14:14.360 And this time, it was really serious.

00:14:18.500 And they, you know, they were really going for it.

00:14:22.040 So I had to lawyer up.

00:14:24.700 I posted in the July of, it would have been another year, the following year, when they actually said,

00:14:33.560 OK, we are, we have found that you've, you're guilty of wrongdoing.

00:14:38.460 You've broken Papira, which is the regulation for elections and referendums.

00:14:42.180 And I was fined £20,000.

00:14:46.460 Wow.

00:14:47.140 And referred to the Metropolitan Police.

00:14:50.340 Now, in the July of 2018, someone's going to reply saying, you've got that wrong.

00:14:56.460 But I'm sure it was the July of 2018.

00:14:58.580 And I know this because it was my birthday.

00:15:03.740 And there was a, it's a really hilarious story of how I found out.

00:15:07.640 I say hilarious.

00:15:08.760 It's hilarious now.

00:15:09.940 It wasn't at the time.

00:15:11.100 I was dating a guy for the first time.

00:15:13.500 I'd been, I'd gone on a date with this guy and he'd come back and he'd stayed over.

00:15:18.900 And every morning, this is no longer the case, admittedly.

00:15:23.260 But at that time, Alexa used to go off at 7am and it would be the pips of the Today program.

00:15:29.860 You know, that beep, beep, beep.

00:15:31.000 And then it would give you the news.

00:15:35.420 And it said, the official vote leave campaign has been fined.

00:15:40.560 And I can't remember what that was.

00:15:41.860 I think it was £71,000 and reported to the, referred to the Metropolitan Police.

00:15:47.920 Also fined £20,000 and referred to the Metropolitan Police is Darren Grimes.

00:15:54.780 And at this point, bearing in mind, I'm sat next to this bloke, I just sat up and he just, he turned to us and he says, did I just hear what I think I heard?

00:16:11.580 And I said, yeah, I reckon you did actually.

00:16:14.960 I think you're probably going to have to go.

00:16:18.100 So off he went.

00:16:19.680 It's a good excuse.

00:16:21.420 Great excuse for a one night stand.

00:16:23.180 I've just been fined £20,000 and the Met are coming.

00:16:27.800 You best get on your way, mate.

00:16:29.960 Yeah.

00:16:30.380 There's no way I could have planned that in advance.

00:16:32.980 And that was how I first found out because the Electoral Commission had sent out a pre-embargoed press release the night before.

00:16:41.720 So I called my solicitor and I says, uh-oh.

00:16:48.020 And he said, yep, you're going to have to do some crowdfunding.

00:16:51.780 So I did.

00:16:54.020 In the end, on an average donation of 30 quid from a few thousand people, maybe 2,000 and odd, I managed to raise £96,000.

00:17:06.340 And that enabled me to get a QC and to really take them on and see it through to the end.

00:17:14.640 And the Electoral Commission actually tried to settle in court.

00:17:19.040 They clearly realized that they were going to lose.

00:17:22.160 And they had the full machinery of the state.

00:17:25.180 You know, they had the treasury devil.

00:17:26.820 That's the government's QC.

00:17:28.620 They had city solicitors, Field Fisher.

00:17:31.420 They represent some of the highest profile clients in the country.

00:17:36.140 And despite all of that, they said to me, you know, we'll reduce your fine to £5,000.

00:17:43.380 I thought, £5,000?

00:17:45.060 I haven't got 50 quid to give you a man to find £5,000.

00:17:48.100 So I thought, hmm.

00:17:52.460 And I was tempted, you know, because at that point, for, well, three years, I was absolutely knackered.

00:17:58.300 And I just wanted it all to go away.

00:17:59.940 So I took my solicitor to one side and my QC, and we had a conversation about it.

00:18:08.420 And they gave me their advice, which was they wouldn't be offering this if they didn't think that they were running into difficulties in this case.

00:18:17.540 I called my mom and she was like, listen, Pat, you're going to do what's right for you.

00:18:22.760 But, I mean, you've got this far.

00:18:25.000 And, you know, what have you got to lose, essentially?

00:18:29.040 You lose.

00:18:29.300 You know, Attila.

00:18:29.880 What would Attila say?

00:18:31.880 Attila was rallying the troops.

00:18:34.600 You know, I called another mate, also from County Durham, actually, and he just said, you know, they've clearly realized that they're up against it yet.

00:18:42.800 And that the entire case that they've built against you has just been, you know, predicated on nothing, on just basically pandering to those who were so desperate.

00:18:55.800 And by the way, we've seen this as evidenced last week with the Information Commissioner's report in Cambridge Analytica and the Russian conspiracy theories.

00:19:04.300 You know, Carol from The Guardian waxed lyrical for three years of my life.

00:19:10.220 She used to call me screaming down the phone.

00:19:13.440 Darren, you must speak to me.

00:19:14.920 You must speak to me.

00:19:16.140 Maybe that's what we need to do with Marcus.

00:19:18.480 You should.

00:19:19.360 Well, actually, it didn't work.

00:19:20.680 I never did speak to her.

00:19:21.620 I blocked her number, actually, in the end.

00:19:25.280 But, you know, she ran stories.

00:19:27.740 I felt like I had my own weekly column in The Guardian at one point.

00:19:31.380 I was on the front page of The Observer every week for a period at one point in my life.

00:19:36.660 It was bizarre.

00:19:38.080 I was involved with Cambridge Analytica.

00:19:40.920 I had links to people like Aaron Banks and all this stuff.

00:19:44.540 And it was all just proven to be completely insane.

00:19:48.320 You know, they said the Aggregate IQ, which was the company that we worked for for our advertising, that they had links to Cambridge Analytica and it was all dodgy and all the rest of it.

00:20:01.320 And it amounted to nothing.

00:20:03.420 All of it amounted to nothing.

00:20:05.840 And so why?

00:20:06.840 You think, why did they do this?

00:20:08.540 And it simply was because these people were absolutely desperate to do all they could to prove that the referendum was in some way illegitimate.

00:20:18.760 That people from backgrounds like mine could not possibly have made the decision on their own to leave the European Union.

00:20:27.420 They must have been duped.

00:20:29.300 It must have been the Russians.

00:20:31.000 It must have been Grimes and his clever computer whiz kids.

00:20:34.180 Stop looking at me like that.

00:20:35.040 You know, all sorts of conspiracy theories now have been proven to be wrong.

00:20:42.760 And for a state regulator to get involved in that sort of thing as well, I think did have serious implications.

00:20:51.200 And I think we're going the right way, actually, as far as this conservative government's concerned, for some serious reform of the Electoral Commission.

00:20:59.600 And I do think, actually, they've probably had their day.

00:21:04.000 And the Electoral Commission will not look how it looks today, this time next year.

00:21:09.600 So thank God.

00:21:10.320 Let's just come back to just to wrap up the point about the £5,000.

00:21:14.120 You called your mum, you called some friends, and they advised you to continue.

00:21:18.100 They did, yes.

00:21:18.500 And you did.

00:21:19.240 I did continue.

00:21:20.440 And the result was?

00:21:21.140 Half of it, I must admit, half of us was, don't do it.

00:21:24.800 Yeah.

00:21:24.980 And then half of us was, yeah, take it and run, and then it'll all be over.

00:21:29.200 But it wouldn't have all been over.

00:21:30.580 I still would have admitted that I was guilty of an offence.

00:21:33.460 So I thought, well, you know, you've got this far.

00:21:36.000 Just do it.

00:21:36.840 Just go through with it.

00:21:37.720 See what happens.

00:21:39.020 The deliberation in the end, the judge went on for two hours, not given.

00:21:42.920 He obviously wanted to make sure that the Electoral Commission had no chance of being able to judicially review the decision to take it to a higher court.

00:21:52.660 And he went on for two hours, stressed the hell out of every point he possibly could, and didn't give any clues about which way he was going to go.

00:22:04.180 So for two hours, I was sat in that courtroom, and I'm an Anglican, and in the corner of the courtroom, there was, I can't actually remember what it was now, but something like praise God or something in the corner.

00:22:19.040 And I remember just looking at it and staring at it like my life depended on it, and just saying, please, God, please, God, please, God, let this go the right way.

00:22:27.920 And it did.

00:22:29.400 And I burst out crying in the bloody courtroom.

00:22:33.180 The Guardian was sat behind us, which actually, in the end, I absolutely loved.

00:22:37.700 And afterwards, my flatmate cut out the Guardian's reporting of the case, saying Grimes wins, appeal against, fine.

00:22:48.600 And we've got that framed and in the flat.

00:22:53.020 But I'm delighted that I did do it, but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, I tell you that much.

00:22:58.140 It was a horrendous ordeal.

00:22:59.900 And, you know, some of my best years of my life, they should have been, rather, some of the best years of my life in the early 20s.

00:23:08.200 And they were ruined by vexatious claims.

00:23:11.360 And it looks like I'm going to have to fight some more vexatious claims, but I'm sure we'll get on to that in a minute.

00:23:17.260 Well, I was going to say, and then you set up a podcast, and that's where your problems ended.

00:23:21.600 Oh, exactly.

00:23:22.580 I thought, right, a quiet life is what I want now.

00:23:26.040 I'm going to set up a podcast, which is a conservative podcast.

00:23:31.800 You know, we, I think, in the same way that you guys do, like to champion free speech and debate.

00:23:41.580 Well, actually, free speech is the root to being more inquisitive and actually finding solutions to problems.

00:23:48.260 That's where I think we're going wrong as a society.

00:23:50.720 Far too often, and I'm afraid that decisions like that that we've had over the past week, which I know I keep jumping the shark, and you're going to smack us if I keep doing that.

00:24:00.160 No, no, no.

00:24:00.820 He just looks like that.

00:24:02.560 He's all face, no bite, believe it.

00:24:05.400 Not even bark, just all face.

00:24:07.400 Just looks tense.

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00:24:38.320 Do you enjoy watching problematic content online that you don't want your friends or family to know about?

00:24:48.500 Of course they do.

00:24:49.200 They watch trigonometry, mate.

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00:25:11.840 We always use ExpressVPN for our browsing, don't we, Francis?

00:25:14.840 Absolutely.

00:25:15.640 And by the way, you sound like an expert.

00:25:17.420 Keep your browsing history to yourself.

00:25:21.340 Visit expressvpn.com forward slash trigger today.

00:25:25.740 To get three months free subscription, visit expressvpn.com slash trigger.

00:25:32.060 That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N dot com slash trigger today.

00:25:38.600 Good job spelling it out for them, mate.

00:25:40.100 It doesn't sound patronizing at all.

00:25:41.700 Absolutely.

00:25:42.340 Oh, and by the way, all those little words you used, I've got no idea what they mean.

00:25:48.740 But let me just summarize for people who are not aware.

00:25:51.740 Let's just summarize it very briefly, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.

00:25:54.880 You interviewed a historian in this country called Dr. David Starkey.

00:25:59.700 We've also had David on the show.

00:26:01.380 He didn't say anything super controversial on our show.

00:26:04.720 But when he was appearing on your show, you were talking about the slavery and the conversation

00:26:09.680 turned to whether slavery was genocide.

00:26:12.480 Yeah.

00:26:12.740 And he made, I would say, ill-judged comments.

00:26:16.200 And I think David is a brilliant commentator and historian.

00:26:20.020 But even as someone who's had him on the show, I would say the comments were ill-judged.

00:26:23.600 I think we're in agreement?

00:26:24.980 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:26.020 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:26.980 Please don't cancel us.

00:26:29.180 We did think it was badly worded.

00:26:31.540 And what he said was slavery wasn't genocide.

00:26:34.880 Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many damn blacks in the West.

00:26:38.140 Am I quoting it accurately?

00:26:39.080 Yeah, roughly right.

00:26:40.460 Yeah.

00:26:40.740 Yeah.

00:26:41.360 And you didn't challenge him on that at the time.

00:26:45.640 He, the repercussions for him, I think, were very significant.

00:26:49.620 Immense, yeah.

00:26:50.140 And, you know, we had Catherine Burble-Sing come on the show, who's a conservative.

00:26:54.320 Yeah, I love Catherine.

00:26:55.300 Who criticized him and said that he was racist.

00:26:57.980 And, you know, we'll eventually have David back and maybe have her and have that conversation

00:27:02.780 with the two of them.

00:27:03.940 But essentially, David paid a very heavy price for comments which were ill-judged, in my opinion.

00:27:09.660 And that story then essentially died down.

00:27:12.820 You also apologized for not challenging him on that and being more robust than that within

00:27:17.940 a few days, I believe.

00:27:18.860 Yeah.

00:27:19.800 And that was done.

00:27:21.560 I'm very bad with days, but this was a few months ago.

00:27:24.420 It was June the 30th that the interview was uploaded.

00:27:27.520 Yeah.

00:27:27.780 By July 2nd, you know, that video had been edited, that remark taken out of the interview,

00:27:34.800 that apology issued.

00:27:36.400 I held my hands up and said, you know, I definitely should have been more robust in my questioning

00:27:41.040 instead of being sat there nodding along to everything.

00:27:45.560 I think the problem was, if I'm brutally honest with you, is that this was a man that I grew

00:27:53.040 up with watching on the telly.

00:27:54.940 This was a man who taught me a better introduction to the Tudors than my history classes did.

00:28:01.220 A better introduction to the Reformation.

00:28:04.100 A better introduction to the many things that have made Britain what it is today, as far as

00:28:09.320 our history is concerned.

00:28:10.440 And I think I did get a little bit too carried away and wasn't really paying attention to

00:28:17.440 what was being said in the interview.

00:28:19.300 You know, I just couldn't believe my luck that an eminent historian like this wanted to

00:28:23.980 appear on my show.

00:28:26.060 So I hold my hands up and say that I failed as an interviewer in not doing that.

00:28:32.540 One thing I will say is that people don't realise this, but when I'm running Reasoned, I am

00:28:38.400 producer, interviewer, you are master of so many trades that you're trying to, you know,

00:28:45.960 click different overlays.

00:28:47.360 You're trying to go to the next screen, go to the next question.

00:28:49.960 You're trying to keep track of time.

00:28:52.460 And it was a mixture of things.

00:28:55.460 And I'm not making excuses for myself.

00:28:57.180 I think what I have allowed to happen is reprehensible.

00:29:02.160 You know, that one comment has clearly caused a lot of offence and hurt a lot of people.

00:29:07.840 And for that, I am sorry.

00:29:09.340 And of course, for Dr. Starkey as well, you know, he hasn't just been cancelled.

00:29:14.440 He's been airbrushed from history.

00:29:17.700 He's lost most honours that he's been given.

00:29:21.300 He's lost, even his books are under threat.

00:29:24.760 And this is a man that has had a really quite impressive career for many, many years.

00:29:33.080 So I feel really, really sad about that.

00:29:35.760 I really do.

00:29:37.360 And all I can say is what I had said in that statement is that moving forward,

00:29:42.920 I will be more professional and pay more bloody attention

00:29:46.720 and not get so carried away and lost in the excitement of it, I guess.

00:29:52.400 But look, irrespective of his comments, just finishing the story,

00:29:56.120 a couple of days ago, the news were revealed that you'd been contacted by the Metropolitan Police

00:30:02.020 and asked to voluntarily attend an interview.

00:30:04.840 It's an interesting phrasing because if you don't attend it, you get arrested.

00:30:08.660 So it's not really that voluntary as far as I...

00:30:11.020 Yeah, exactly.

00:30:11.880 Not all that voluntary, but you were asked to attend an interview

00:30:15.380 on the subject of you being charged potentially with...

00:30:20.300 Is it stirring racial hatred?

00:30:21.980 Uh-huh, stirring up, yeah.

00:30:23.200 Yeah, that sounds...

00:30:24.400 It's a Public Order Act offense, Section 22 of the Public Order Act.

00:30:28.760 And we're here on a Sunday night recording this, within a couple of days of this.

00:30:35.860 You're being investigated by the police for something that someone else said

00:30:41.180 on the show that you recorded.

00:30:43.800 Uh-huh.

00:30:44.460 That's right.

00:30:45.800 So I'll just give you the story of how it happened and how it broke,

00:30:49.340 and then I'll give you my hot take on what the hell's going on here.

00:30:54.980 I had an email via my contact form on my website.

00:31:00.180 Now, I get all sorts of emails, as you can imagine, via this contact form.

00:31:04.000 Most of them calling us a prick, right-wing fascist, whatever, you name it.

00:31:09.380 And actually quite a lot of lovely emails as well.

00:31:12.520 So I opened my email box, busy typing away with something,

00:31:17.440 and I noticed it said, interview.

00:31:20.640 And being the massive narcissist that I am, I thought,

00:31:24.420 oh, right, I must have a media bit.

00:31:26.420 Do I click and opened it?

00:31:28.540 And I saw that the email was a Met email, as in Met Police.

00:31:32.200 And I thought, here we go.

00:31:35.660 So I read the email, and it said,

00:31:37.660 we'd like you to come in for a voluntary interview for your,

00:31:41.480 relating to your interview with David Starkey.

00:31:44.980 Oh, it said, Mr. Starkey.

00:31:49.620 So I replied, and I said, can I ask what it is I'm being accused of?

00:31:54.300 And then came the reply quite quickly,

00:31:58.340 with basically a copy and paste of Section 22 of the Public Order Act,

00:32:06.660 which is stirring up racial hatred.

00:32:10.460 And I thought, this cannot be real.

00:32:13.580 Someone's having me on here.

00:32:15.580 And I thought, is there a way in which you can clone emails?

00:32:19.020 I was genuinely going through this thought process.

00:32:21.500 I thought, this can't be happening.

00:32:23.840 So I walked into my local police station,

00:32:27.080 and I said, listen, I've had this email.

00:32:29.700 I walk in, and I sit down, and the door shuts behind you.

00:32:32.960 It's quite eerie, and I thought, well, I might not get out of here again.

00:32:36.460 And I say to the last behind the counter,

00:32:39.420 I've had this email, and I'm just wanting you to verify it for us, please.

00:32:44.120 And she says, right, can I take your date of birth and your name,

00:32:46.840 and the name of the officer?

00:32:49.200 So she types away at our computer, and I say, well, you know,

00:32:53.180 I'm sure it must be real, right?

00:32:57.000 And she's, one moment, please, tapping away.

00:33:02.100 It was very sort of, computer says no.

00:33:04.860 And she just turns, and she says, are you a broadcaster?

00:33:09.640 And I just looked, and I said, so it is real.

00:33:14.380 I said, that's all I need.

00:33:15.820 Thank you very much.

00:33:17.160 She said, hold on.

00:33:19.140 I said, no, no, no.

00:33:20.400 That's fine, thank you.

00:33:21.600 I thought, what's she going to do?

00:33:22.660 Arrest me now.

00:33:23.600 I thought, I need to get out of here.

00:33:25.120 So off I went, and I called Toby Young.

00:33:30.400 And I said, you're not going to believe this.

00:33:32.120 The founder of the Free Speech Union.

00:33:33.080 Free Speech Union, which, by the way,

00:33:34.780 I'd be lost if it wasn't for the Free Speech Union.

00:33:37.680 What a fantastic idea, and quite an important one,

00:33:42.200 as it turns out.

00:33:43.760 And I says, you're never going to believe this.

00:33:45.480 What's happened?

00:33:46.340 And I told him, and obviously he said, of course,

00:33:49.820 of course, we'll help, thank God.

00:33:53.140 And then we started the ball rolling.

00:33:56.200 My solicitor was replying to them.

00:33:59.180 Luke Gettos, who I think you've had on the show.

00:34:02.300 He's fantastic.

00:34:04.020 And he's really put my mind at ease on a lot of this.

00:34:08.620 And we replied.

00:34:13.400 And I thought, right, well, maybe, you know,

00:34:15.380 the solicitor replying will make it all go away.

00:34:18.200 That was a bit bloody naive.

00:34:19.700 You'd think after three bites of the cherry

00:34:21.640 with the Electoral Commission,

00:34:22.720 I'd get the fact that these regulators

00:34:24.400 aren't very quick to just go away

00:34:27.640 once they've had an email from a solicitor.

00:34:31.060 So they then started saying things like,

00:34:34.940 you know, the comment,

00:34:35.780 the interview was posted at a time

00:34:37.620 when it was politically insensitive.

00:34:40.640 And I don't want to try and quote,

00:34:43.460 because I won't be able to off the top of my head.

00:34:45.860 But I just thought, what are they saying here?

00:34:49.060 Are the Metropolitan Police saying that

00:34:50.600 I can't interview someone with controversial views

00:34:53.040 at a time when it's politically insensitive to do so?

00:34:55.520 Because what does that say about free expression

00:34:58.160 and free speech?

00:35:00.900 What are the Metropolitan Police playing at?

00:35:04.900 And then I started to think, you know,

00:35:07.460 bloody hell, this is actually quite serious.

00:35:11.460 So at that point,

00:35:13.980 I thought, you know, I decided,

00:35:16.900 I really did at one point think,

00:35:18.760 I'm not, they're going to have to arrest us.

00:35:20.920 I'm not going for a voluntary interview.

00:35:23.360 They'll have to come to the door and arrest me

00:35:26.300 because I don't, I'm not having any truck with this.

00:35:29.400 It is as ridiculous as you've just set out

00:35:31.840 that someone is facing arrest and seven years,

00:35:36.940 it's a maximum sentence of seven years in prison

00:35:40.060 if you're found guilty of a public order offence.

00:35:44.160 We need to cancel this fucking podcast.

00:35:46.080 Get out of this.

00:35:47.240 Go into banking, honestly.

00:35:48.960 Run.

00:35:49.420 You can't count, mate.

00:35:50.320 And after this rib injury, neither can I walk.

00:35:53.560 So they're just going to leave me in this chair.

00:36:00.600 Have you ever been abroad and fell out of place

00:36:02.920 because you didn't speak the language?

00:36:04.560 No, because I voted Brexit, mate.

00:36:06.420 Brexit means Brexit.

00:36:08.280 I know that when you go on holiday,

00:36:10.060 sometimes you don't speak the language.

00:36:11.580 It can feel really awkward.

00:36:13.060 A little bit like France is talking to a woman.

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00:36:19.880 but if you do,

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00:37:12.780 And we're not going to explain

00:37:14.000 how to spell the word Trigger

00:37:15.240 because that would be patronizing.

00:37:16.880 So, I, you know, I just thought,

00:37:23.880 this is mental.

00:37:25.420 This is insane.

00:37:27.200 And then we did a press release.

00:37:29.760 It went out into the Telegraph.

00:37:31.520 And I must say,

00:37:32.440 the one heartland thing

00:37:33.620 has been how much support there has been.

00:37:36.780 And I say that from across the political spectrum.

00:37:40.260 You know, people who think that I am,

00:37:43.660 you know, as conservative as they come

00:37:45.560 and that is morally reprehensible.

00:37:47.940 Ash Sarker, for example,

00:37:49.520 you know, she described me as a jar,

00:37:51.340 but she said that this,

00:37:53.120 she clearly disagreed

00:37:54.160 with the decision

00:37:54.740 from the Metropolitan Police

00:37:55.720 and thought that it has

00:37:56.500 serious repercussions for free speech.

00:37:58.960 And even Tim Farron,

00:38:00.660 the former leader

00:38:01.440 of the Liberal Democrats,

00:38:02.840 who I campaigned against

00:38:04.080 in that leadership election,

00:38:06.200 he said, on the face of it,

00:38:08.880 this seems pretty dodgy.

00:38:11.360 And there have been,

00:38:12.640 there have been so many examples like that.

00:38:14.180 Even the Home Secretary has said,

00:38:15.660 obviously, she can't comment

00:38:16.700 on an operational matter,

00:38:18.200 but the police should respect free speech.

00:38:22.460 And you've just got to think

00:38:23.860 about what this decision actually means

00:38:27.180 if it goes ahead.

00:38:28.560 You know, if I leave here

00:38:30.360 and the coppers are waiting outside the door.

00:38:32.520 Yeah, we've made it happen.

00:38:35.260 High drama on this show.

00:38:36.900 High drama.

00:38:37.420 Get them up.

00:38:38.200 Yeah.

00:38:38.880 And if I am,

00:38:40.580 and I'm charged for this,

00:38:42.500 this really will have serious repercussions.

00:38:45.340 It'll mean that you guys

00:38:46.800 and people like you,

00:38:49.100 Piers Morgan,

00:38:50.180 you name it.

00:38:51.100 Thank you for putting that in that bracket.

00:38:52.980 The BBC.

00:38:54.060 Yeah.

00:38:54.440 I don't wish to put yous with the BBC,

00:38:56.460 but I just have, you know,

00:38:57.900 the BBC have had controversial guests on.

00:38:59.900 Piers Morgan has controversial guests on each week.

00:39:02.060 It's what makes for good telly.

00:39:03.820 You guys do,

00:39:04.620 because controversial people are interested.

00:39:06.680 And they say things which, yes,

00:39:08.940 might provoke a response

00:39:10.620 that people find offensive,

00:39:13.000 perish the thought.

00:39:14.400 But that actually get us to a point as a society

00:39:17.700 where we discuss issues.

00:39:20.400 You know, you might think

00:39:21.480 what Dr. Starkey said was wrong.

00:39:25.140 Now, I happen to believe that.

00:39:28.000 And I happen to believe I was wrong

00:39:29.820 not to challenge him on it,

00:39:30.860 as I've said.

00:39:32.060 But it's a good thing

00:39:34.760 that as a society,

00:39:36.760 we are one in which

00:39:38.400 I can be challenged on that.

00:39:40.480 It was a good thing

00:39:41.640 that my show was criticised

00:39:43.680 for not being robust enough

00:39:45.620 in going back to Dr. Starkey

00:39:47.600 and saying,

00:39:48.400 whoa, hang on a minute.

00:39:49.600 What do you mean by that?

00:39:53.900 That's the right response.

00:39:55.420 That's what a healthy democracy and society does.

00:39:59.120 It has these conversations.

00:40:02.760 It doesn't report people to the police

00:40:05.140 for having controversial guests on their show.

00:40:08.520 It doesn't threaten seven years' imprisonment.

00:40:12.220 It doesn't waste a gross amount of taxpayer cash

00:40:16.500 at a time when burglaries are going without investigation,

00:40:20.900 at a time when I've had so many emails from people saying,

00:40:24.140 I can't believe the police think this is a valuable use of their time

00:40:28.840 when, you know, my house was robbed

00:40:31.200 and they didn't do out about it.

00:40:33.500 They said,

00:40:35.000 cuts,

00:40:36.240 we can't,

00:40:36.800 you know,

00:40:37.140 we're kind of,

00:40:37.660 we're overstretched.

00:40:39.140 Yet they can find the time

00:40:40.380 to interview a podcast host

00:40:42.800 over having a controversial guest on their show

00:40:46.040 for a public order offence.

00:40:49.080 It's just extraordinary.

00:40:51.160 I can't put that enough.

00:40:53.040 It has really,

00:40:54.360 really serious repercussions

00:40:56.300 for free speech

00:40:57.880 in a society

00:40:59.120 that's supposed to cherish,

00:41:00.880 that purports to cherish

00:41:02.660 freedom of the press.

00:41:05.420 We're no better than the likes of Russia

00:41:07.420 if we allow something like this to happen.

00:41:09.600 My country has really taken a beating here.

00:41:12.140 It has, it has.

00:41:13.160 I've mentioned Russia three times now.

00:41:14.600 I'm starting to sound like Carol.

00:41:17.480 But it really, really does.

00:41:19.080 And I know you guys have said that

00:41:20.520 and recognise that yourselves

00:41:21.820 because channels like this

00:41:24.220 are, to be frank,

00:41:26.580 up shit creek without a paddle

00:41:27.980 if this is the way

00:41:29.340 in which the police are allowed to operate.

00:41:32.620 So I think the fight back though is happening.

00:41:35.720 I know MPs next week,

00:41:37.100 Tim Lawton is going to say something

00:41:39.180 in the Home Affairs Select Committee.

00:41:41.280 Ben Bradley wants to raise an urgent question.

00:41:43.560 The Home Secretary has put out a tweet.

00:41:47.060 Whether or not more than that will happen,

00:41:48.420 I don't know.

00:41:49.700 But I really do think

00:41:50.760 that there needs to be a conversation

00:41:52.640 about this hate crime legislation

00:41:54.220 and the way in which

00:41:55.200 we challenge views that we don't like.

00:41:58.020 You can't do it through the legal system.

00:42:00.580 If there's one experience,

00:42:02.040 if there's one takeaway that I have

00:42:03.880 from the last four years of my life,

00:42:06.600 since 2016,

00:42:08.140 it's that there are a lot of left-wing activists

00:42:10.480 in this country

00:42:11.360 who will not have a debate with you.

00:42:13.760 They do not want to actually

00:42:15.300 sit down with you,

00:42:16.660 have that conversation

00:42:17.720 that anyone in a free society

00:42:19.420 has a license to do.

00:42:21.060 They want to circumvent the ballot box.

00:42:24.040 They want to circumvent

00:42:25.440 the parameters of free speech and debate

00:42:27.520 and go straight for the court system,

00:42:29.760 straight for the law.

00:42:30.960 And that's one thing,

00:42:32.120 that's one phenomenon

00:42:32.860 that I've seen

00:42:33.640 over the past four years

00:42:34.620 that is getting worse and worse.

00:42:36.440 Now, the Law Commission

00:42:37.820 has put out a consultation

00:42:39.700 which is talking about

00:42:41.820 widening the parameters

00:42:43.400 of hate crime legislation,

00:42:45.560 which will mean that misogyny becomes,

00:42:48.400 that will be classed as a hate crime

00:42:50.400 if you want misogynistic.

00:42:52.120 And to widen it

00:42:53.160 for other parameters as well,

00:42:54.700 I think actually being hateful

00:42:55.940 towards men could be,

00:42:57.740 what's the opposite of misogyny?

00:42:59.680 Misandry.

00:43:00.360 Thank you.

00:43:00.840 And these sorts of things

00:43:04.200 I think have also

00:43:05.340 really quite serious repercussions.

00:43:08.340 We shouldn't be widening

00:43:10.080 the scope of hate crime legislation.

00:43:12.040 If I leave here today

00:43:13.840 as a gay man

00:43:14.960 and someone punches me

00:43:16.940 square in the face,

00:43:18.720 I won't be more offended

00:43:20.020 that they've punched me

00:43:21.080 because I'm gay.

00:43:22.480 I'm offended

00:43:23.080 because they've smacked us

00:43:24.280 across the chops

00:43:25.120 and I want them

00:43:26.200 to be punished for that.

00:43:27.760 I don't care

00:43:28.480 if they don't like the fact

00:43:29.600 that I'm gay.

00:43:30.840 You know, I just worry

00:43:32.140 that going down this route

00:43:34.120 is having really serious consequences

00:43:36.620 and actually we should pull back

00:43:38.840 and start to re-evaluate some of it

00:43:40.860 because it quite clearly,

00:43:42.400 as has been evidenced

00:43:43.320 over the past week,

00:43:44.780 having really serious repercussions

00:43:46.640 which haven't been thought through

00:43:48.560 and which we should address

00:43:50.200 some of the reforms

00:43:51.040 that were put through by Blair,

00:43:52.620 not worsen them.

00:43:54.160 And do you think

00:43:54.560 there's been a gradual encroachment

00:43:55.900 on freedom of speech

00:43:56.740 or do you think it's

00:43:57.740 an overnight thing?

00:43:58.560 Because I'll be honest with you,

00:43:59.780 the moment I heard your case,

00:44:01.460 I struggled to believe it

00:44:02.540 but then I looked back

00:44:03.680 at certain instances

00:44:04.600 where, for instance,

00:44:05.300 with Joe Brand,

00:44:06.100 with Cam Dankula,

00:44:07.640 it seems to have been

00:44:08.540 a gradual process.

00:44:09.520 Harry Miller as well,

00:44:10.640 you can add to that,

00:44:11.580 who we've had on the show,

00:44:12.580 Posey Parker,

00:44:13.380 interviewed by the police,

00:44:15.060 Chelsea Russell,

00:44:15.940 who was actually prosecuted

00:44:17.220 for posting the lyrics

00:44:18.300 of a song

00:44:18.960 in tribute to her friend.

00:44:20.740 I did a whole comedy show

00:44:21.660 about this.

00:44:22.080 I mean,

00:44:22.540 you talk about Russia,

00:44:23.540 by the way,

00:44:24.140 in this country

00:44:24.900 in 2017 or 2018,

00:44:27.320 nearly 3,500 people

00:44:29.360 were arrested

00:44:29.980 for things they said.

00:44:30.960 In Russia,

00:44:31.520 it was 400.

00:44:32.520 So in many ways,

00:44:33.400 you could argue,

00:44:34.480 we're doing great.

00:44:35.240 Yeah,

00:44:35.400 but you do have

00:44:35.880 a more effective way

00:44:36.700 of dealing with it.

00:44:37.280 Absolutely.

00:44:38.280 That's how it should be dealt with.

00:44:40.080 Well,

00:44:40.720 here's hope not.

00:44:42.080 Yeah.

00:44:43.540 I do actually think

00:44:45.480 it's got worse,

00:44:46.220 to be honest with you,

00:44:46.980 because I do think

00:44:48.020 that there is,

00:44:50.240 I guess,

00:44:51.080 more of an acceptance

00:44:52.080 that if you don't like

00:44:53.580 what someone said,

00:44:54.780 you should report it

00:44:55.700 to the police,

00:44:56.980 that it's acceptable

00:44:58.560 to do that,

00:44:59.580 that it's commonplace

00:45:00.520 to do that,

00:45:01.380 and that actually

00:45:02.140 the CPS

00:45:02.880 and the Met

00:45:04.060 welcome it.

00:45:06.320 And far from

00:45:07.320 actually saying

00:45:08.060 we should,

00:45:09.000 one phenomenon

00:45:10.340 that's also been

00:45:11.140 really strange,

00:45:12.720 with things like

00:45:14.080 burglaries,

00:45:14.660 with things like

00:45:15.220 knife crime,

00:45:16.360 the raison d'etre

00:45:17.160 of the police

00:45:17.980 is to reduce

00:45:19.080 those things,

00:45:20.220 is to actually

00:45:20.980 reduce the numbers

00:45:21.960 of them,

00:45:22.660 and challenge them,

00:45:23.440 and stop them,

00:45:24.100 and stop the perpetrators

00:45:25.400 of these crimes.

00:45:26.960 With hate crime,

00:45:28.220 it actually seems

00:45:28.960 to be the opposite.

00:45:30.340 They actually want

00:45:31.200 more of it,

00:45:32.560 and that,

00:45:33.540 for them,

00:45:34.320 is ticking a box

00:45:35.120 saying,

00:45:36.040 look at us,

00:45:37.060 good job, eh?

00:45:38.100 Look how many

00:45:38.740 hate crime stats

00:45:39.580 we've had,

00:45:40.440 and non-crime hate crimes

00:45:41.760 and all the rest of it

00:45:42.540 reported this year.

00:45:44.000 And they tick a big box

00:45:45.360 and say how woke

00:45:46.320 and progressive they are.

00:45:47.980 The job of any

00:45:49.700 justice system

00:45:50.780 should surely

00:45:51.860 to be to ensure

00:45:53.200 that we have

00:45:53.760 less of this stuff,

00:45:55.120 not more of it.

00:45:56.420 There seems to be

00:45:57.100 more and more

00:45:57.760 of a push

00:45:58.840 to show that

00:46:00.400 they're doing

00:46:00.980 something about

00:46:01.800 this stuff,

00:46:02.340 they're challenging

00:46:03.080 hate crime

00:46:03.900 and all the rest

00:46:05.560 of it.

00:46:06.120 And listen,

00:46:06.680 I say this as

00:46:07.420 someone who was

00:46:08.160 punched about

00:46:09.440 at school

00:46:10.160 for being a faggot,

00:46:11.600 right?

00:46:12.020 I am not someone

00:46:13.080 who sat here

00:46:13.780 saying that

00:46:14.440 we haven't had

00:46:15.760 problems as a society

00:46:16.900 and who doesn't

00:46:17.660 understand why

00:46:19.200 there was a need

00:46:20.520 for legislation

00:46:21.600 like this,

00:46:22.680 but I actually

00:46:23.460 do think it's

00:46:24.520 gone far too far,

00:46:26.020 especially at a time

00:46:27.040 when a journalist

00:46:28.060 can be pulled in

00:46:29.660 for something

00:46:30.460 that his guest

00:46:31.200 has said.

00:46:32.380 That said,

00:46:33.580 I actually don't

00:46:34.420 even think

00:46:34.960 it would be valid

00:46:35.720 to pull in

00:46:36.460 Dr Starkey

00:46:37.240 for his comments.

00:46:38.560 As I say,

00:46:39.740 in any free society,

00:46:41.500 challenge Dr Starkey

00:46:42.640 robustly.

00:46:42.900 tell us why

00:46:44.840 you hate what

00:46:45.700 he said,

00:46:46.160 tell us why

00:46:46.600 you criticise him,

00:46:47.680 tell us why

00:46:48.100 you think he was

00:46:48.740 wrong to say that,

00:46:49.980 tell us why

00:46:50.420 you think I

00:46:51.220 was staggeringly

00:46:52.160 incompetent

00:46:53.020 at my job

00:46:54.080 as an interviewer.

00:46:55.280 But you don't

00:46:56.260 report someone

00:46:56.960 to the police

00:46:57.740 just because

00:46:58.440 you're offended

00:46:59.020 by what they say.

00:47:00.600 And the idea

00:47:01.460 that he stirred

00:47:02.620 up hatred,

00:47:03.500 never mind me,

00:47:04.680 that he stirred

00:47:05.400 up hatred,

00:47:06.680 the only hatred

00:47:07.660 that Dr Starkey

00:47:09.140 stirred up

00:47:09.840 was against

00:47:10.640 himself.

00:47:11.220 You know,

00:47:12.140 the man,

00:47:12.680 as I say,

00:47:13.200 wasn't just cancelled.

00:47:14.620 He was airbrushed

00:47:15.840 from history.

00:47:16.800 He's lost every honour

00:47:17.660 that he had.

00:47:18.320 His books are under attack.

00:47:20.400 Attack the man

00:47:21.540 for what he said,

00:47:23.020 don't report him

00:47:24.000 to the police

00:47:24.760 because it doesn't

00:47:25.840 get us anywhere

00:47:26.540 as a society.

00:47:27.900 The way in which

00:47:28.860 you challenge views

00:47:29.940 that you find

00:47:30.580 uncomfortable,

00:47:31.740 the way in which

00:47:32.540 we advance as a society

00:47:34.240 is more speech.

00:47:36.240 You know,

00:47:36.460 sunlight is very much

00:47:37.880 the best disinfectant.

00:47:39.940 We need more words

00:47:41.200 not shutting down

00:47:42.280 them and,

00:47:43.200 you know,

00:47:43.720 trying to get people

00:47:45.000 arrested for daring

00:47:46.020 to have the temerity

00:47:46.920 to have their own

00:47:47.560 podcast.

00:47:48.660 And,

00:47:49.120 do you want to jump in?

00:47:50.380 I was just going to say

00:47:51.300 that you're sitting here

00:47:52.440 talking to two people

00:47:53.340 who voted Romain.

00:47:54.500 Because we're good people.

00:47:55.540 Because we're good people.

00:47:56.660 That will do very well

00:47:57.760 with his audience,

00:47:58.520 that joke,

00:47:59.040 won't it?

00:48:01.440 And,

00:48:01.940 you know,

00:48:02.220 Francis is an old school

00:48:03.200 lefty.

00:48:03.780 I think I'm very much

00:48:05.300 bang in the centre

00:48:06.060 of politics.

00:48:07.260 Neither of us

00:48:08.380 is a natural,

00:48:10.440 in natural agreement

00:48:11.780 with your views.

00:48:14.440 Can we make that clear?

00:48:16.820 And,

00:48:17.620 however,

00:48:19.380 what is happening

00:48:20.760 to you

00:48:21.480 is absolutely

00:48:22.600 preposterous.

00:48:23.800 And,

00:48:24.460 you talk about

00:48:25.300 people shouldn't

00:48:26.180 report you

00:48:26.840 or Dr. Stark

00:48:27.760 it to the police.

00:48:28.860 There will always be

00:48:29.740 a few idiots

00:48:30.640 who will,

00:48:31.520 you know,

00:48:31.740 someone reported

00:48:32.440 Brexit to the police

00:48:33.580 or whatever it was,

00:48:34.660 right?

00:48:34.780 That's always going to happen.

00:48:36.620 The issue for me,

00:48:38.280 and I think

00:48:38.800 this is a really key issue,

00:48:40.100 is why are the police

00:48:41.180 dealing with this?

00:48:42.580 But before we get

00:48:43.240 to the police,

00:48:43.880 let's maybe talk about

00:48:45.020 the whole Remain

00:48:45.860 and Brexit thing

00:48:46.500 because you alluded

00:48:47.620 to it earlier

00:48:48.380 and I instinctively,

00:48:50.180 I don't know,

00:48:50.800 but instinctively

00:48:51.440 that's my sense,

00:48:52.900 is you are being

00:48:54.280 punished

00:48:54.880 by people

00:48:56.940 who are frustrated

00:48:57.920 at the outcome

00:48:58.760 of the referendum

00:48:59.400 and frustrated

00:49:01.820 particularly

00:49:02.520 that someone

00:49:03.220 like you

00:49:04.100 should be

00:49:05.500 one of the

00:49:06.320 more prominent

00:49:07.120 voices

00:49:07.620 who supported

00:49:08.480 and advanced it.

00:49:09.880 In other words,

00:49:10.600 you're gay,

00:49:11.440 you're young,

00:49:13.120 you know,

00:49:13.720 all of these

00:49:14.540 other things

00:49:15.080 that make up

00:49:15.720 your identity.

00:49:16.660 You're a unicorn,

00:49:18.300 you shouldn't exist

00:49:19.240 and yet here you are

00:49:20.740 on the cutting edge

00:49:22.140 of this process.

00:49:24.120 Do you think

00:49:24.500 that's really

00:49:25.040 what this is all about?

00:49:26.560 Well,

00:49:27.360 I didn't actually

00:49:29.200 initially,

00:49:30.280 but Ian Dale

00:49:31.040 wrote a piece

00:49:32.000 and Ian Dale

00:49:32.780 as he is,

00:49:33.760 have you had him

00:49:34.300 on the show?

00:49:34.660 Yeah,

00:49:34.940 we've twice.

00:49:35.580 Ian Dale is a bit

00:49:36.440 of a centrist.

00:49:37.240 Sally,

00:49:37.760 right?

00:49:38.080 He's someone

00:49:38.580 on the left

00:49:39.320 of the Conservative

00:49:40.160 Party.

00:49:41.260 Well,

00:49:41.480 actually,

00:49:41.740 I'm not even sure

00:49:42.300 he's a member

00:49:42.720 of the Conservative

00:49:43.280 Party anymore

00:49:43.920 so I shan't

00:49:44.940 tarnish him

00:49:45.500 with that brush.

00:49:47.840 But he wrote

00:49:48.860 this piece

00:49:49.520 on me

00:49:50.840 and it was very

00:49:51.360 nice saying

00:49:52.320 that I am

00:49:53.540 an articulate

00:49:54.260 proponent

00:49:54.880 of Brexit

00:49:55.440 and that's why

00:49:56.120 a lot of people

00:49:56.660 hate me.

00:49:57.300 For all the reasons

00:49:58.120 that you list,

00:49:59.040 I shouldn't have

00:49:59.880 these views.

00:50:01.040 My identity,

00:50:03.500 as far as identity

00:50:04.500 politics would have

00:50:05.680 me believe,

00:50:06.800 should say that

00:50:07.540 I am a product

00:50:08.140 of the left

00:50:08.880 so I shouldn't

00:50:09.840 have these views.

00:50:11.000 I shouldn't be

00:50:11.480 a Conservative.

00:50:13.080 I shouldn't hold

00:50:14.040 culturally Conservative

00:50:15.020 values and a lot

00:50:16.840 of people say,

00:50:17.480 oh Darren,

00:50:18.160 you know,

00:50:18.440 well,

00:50:19.260 you know,

00:50:19.540 maybe this is

00:50:20.080 what you get

00:50:20.620 for being so

00:50:21.260 controversial

00:50:21.900 and I say,

00:50:22.640 hang on a minute,

00:50:23.900 controversial?

00:50:25.420 My views on the BBC

00:50:26.920 are held by

00:50:28.840 the vast majority

00:50:29.860 of this country

00:50:30.620 who think that

00:50:31.240 licence fee reform

00:50:32.320 should happen.

00:50:33.820 My views on Brexit,

00:50:35.980 the country

00:50:36.480 voted for it.

00:50:38.300 My views on

00:50:39.040 the Conservative Party,

00:50:40.560 they just won

00:50:41.120 a majority,

00:50:41.920 80 seat.

00:50:42.520 What is it

00:50:44.200 about me

00:50:44.940 that's controversial?

00:50:46.980 It's not

00:50:47.640 what I'm saying

00:50:48.520 is controversial

00:50:49.120 to the country.

00:50:50.780 It's that my views

00:50:51.920 are controversial

00:50:52.800 to an out-of-touch

00:50:54.460 pocket

00:50:55.200 of very influential

00:50:56.640 Metropolitan

00:50:57.480 Liberals

00:50:58.080 that occupy

00:50:58.860 positions in

00:50:59.740 the Quango State,

00:51:00.980 that occupy

00:51:01.560 positions in

00:51:02.360 the BBC,

00:51:03.540 that occupy

00:51:04.020 positions in

00:51:04.940 most of the media.

00:51:06.240 And I say that

00:51:07.660 even about

00:51:08.500 some centre-right

00:51:09.400 publications

00:51:10.060 as well,

00:51:10.600 actually.

00:51:11.240 I hear from

00:51:11.960 so many

00:51:12.440 graduate journalists

00:51:13.600 who get involved

00:51:14.360 with this

00:51:14.820 who have

00:51:15.500 really quite

00:51:16.120 left-wing

00:51:16.680 pro-Corbyn views

00:51:17.920 and they're

00:51:18.880 working for the sun

00:51:19.820 and you just think,

00:51:21.420 you know,

00:51:21.740 I think bloody hell

00:51:22.480 we've got no hope

00:51:23.320 if that's the case.

00:51:24.880 But they're all

00:51:26.080 centre-left,

00:51:27.800 at least,

00:51:28.700 some of them

00:51:29.180 quite harder-left,

00:51:31.540 metropolitan

00:51:32.020 and they do not

00:51:33.420 like what I'm saying

00:51:34.300 and they don't

00:51:35.640 like that

00:51:36.640 and I'm gonna

00:51:37.260 speak highly

00:51:38.960 of myself

00:51:39.440 because if I don't

00:51:40.560 no one else

00:51:41.140 is going to.

00:51:42.140 I feel like

00:51:43.500 I'm getting quite

00:51:44.420 good at it

00:51:44.840 as far as

00:51:45.500 my reach is

00:51:46.320 concerned.

00:51:46.980 For some reason

00:51:47.980 a lot of people

00:51:48.820 like what I have

00:51:49.740 to say,

00:51:50.600 right?

00:51:51.160 And I don't

00:51:52.380 think there's

00:51:52.720 anything controversial

00:51:53.360 about that.

00:51:55.660 But

00:51:56.140 we are getting

00:51:57.680 to the position

00:51:58.380 where,

00:51:59.660 and Ian Dale

00:52:00.040 put this in his

00:52:00.720 piece,

00:52:02.140 that

00:52:02.540 why would

00:52:04.640 anyone

00:52:05.000 in my

00:52:05.900 position,

00:52:07.200 the next

00:52:07.600 generation

00:52:08.100 of young

00:52:08.520 people,

00:52:09.660 political

00:52:10.020 commentators,

00:52:11.120 people involved

00:52:11.720 in politics,

00:52:13.340 who have my

00:52:14.080 views,

00:52:14.680 which as I say,

00:52:15.880 in my view,

00:52:16.940 are mainstream,

00:52:19.620 dare put the

00:52:20.680 head above the

00:52:21.160 parapet because

00:52:22.080 you will risk

00:52:22.920 cancellation.

00:52:24.160 And that's

00:52:24.500 what Ian said.

00:52:25.620 And Ian is not

00:52:26.440 someone who is a

00:52:27.660 head-banging

00:52:28.340 conservative like

00:52:29.280 I am.

00:52:30.760 He is a

00:52:31.320 centrist who

00:52:31.940 works for

00:52:32.340 LBC,

00:52:33.000 who in my

00:52:33.520 opinion,

00:52:34.560 LBC has

00:52:35.160 gone quite

00:52:35.720 woke.

00:52:38.180 So if he

00:52:39.380 has these

00:52:39.940 concerns,

00:52:41.580 and I'm

00:52:41.940 getting support

00:52:42.620 from the

00:52:43.060 likes of

00:52:43.420 Ash Sarker

00:52:44.080 and Tim

00:52:44.500 Farron,

00:52:46.200 something's

00:52:47.000 gone wrong

00:52:47.940 here.

00:52:48.720 Something's

00:52:49.240 where definitely

00:52:50.460 as a society

00:52:51.340 or as far

00:52:52.660 as our

00:52:52.960 institutions

00:52:53.560 are concerned,

00:52:54.760 getting

00:52:55.200 something

00:52:55.660 really,

00:52:56.360 really wrong.

00:52:57.940 Now I do

00:52:58.440 think a lot

00:52:58.900 of people hate

00:52:59.500 me vehemently

00:53:00.500 because of

00:53:00.920 Brexit.

00:53:01.940 At the same

00:53:02.640 time,

00:53:02.920 as I say,

00:53:03.300 a lot of

00:53:03.560 people are,

00:53:04.300 I'm very

00:53:04.820 Marmite,

00:53:05.440 I don't

00:53:05.760 deny that.

00:53:07.560 You either

00:53:07.900 love us or

00:53:08.340 you hate us.

00:53:09.520 Julia Hartley

00:53:10.080 Brewer called

00:53:10.560 us up and

00:53:10.900 she went,

00:53:11.200 you like me,

00:53:11.880 Darren,

00:53:12.200 you like me,

00:53:12.820 you like me.

00:53:13.480 And I do

00:53:16.360 think Brexit

00:53:17.160 was that

00:53:17.700 sort of,

00:53:19.640 it sort of

00:53:20.640 released a

00:53:21.840 feeling from

00:53:22.780 the people

00:53:23.120 that I've

00:53:23.440 just spoken

00:53:23.960 about that

00:53:25.500 for the

00:53:25.900 first time

00:53:26.660 we plebs

00:53:28.020 had said,

00:53:28.700 no, we're

00:53:29.460 not going

00:53:30.040 along with

00:53:30.760 what you

00:53:31.140 are advocating.

00:53:32.180 We are

00:53:32.660 actually going

00:53:33.360 to stand

00:53:33.900 up for

00:53:34.380 what we

00:53:34.760 believe in,

00:53:36.020 for whether

00:53:36.600 that be the

00:53:37.140 nation state,

00:53:38.460 whether that

00:53:38.940 be culturally

00:53:39.660 conservative

00:53:40.320 values,

00:53:41.740 we are

00:53:43.340 just going

00:53:43.760 to start

00:53:44.120 saying no

00:53:44.600 to you

00:53:44.860 people.

00:53:45.940 And I

00:53:46.540 do think

00:53:47.080 there has

00:53:47.380 been a

00:53:47.660 real political

00:53:48.300 awakening.

00:53:49.120 And I

00:53:49.420 think you

00:53:49.740 see that

00:53:50.200 in how

00:53:50.520 fast

00:53:50.960 movements

00:53:51.400 like

00:53:51.660 defund

00:53:52.100 the BBC

00:53:52.600 have

00:53:52.940 grown.

00:53:53.880 They've

00:53:54.320 managed to

00:53:54.780 raise an

00:53:55.140 impressive

00:53:55.540 amount of

00:53:56.080 cash.

00:53:56.740 They've

00:53:56.900 got 100,000

00:53:57.780 followers on

00:53:58.320 Twitter.

00:53:59.160 The BBC

00:53:59.680 producers

00:54:00.300 are not

00:54:01.480 very happy

00:54:01.960 about it.

00:54:02.720 The BBC

00:54:03.560 are worried

00:54:04.220 that genuine

00:54:04.880 reform is

00:54:05.480 coming.

00:54:06.220 And I

00:54:06.440 think it

00:54:06.700 is because

00:54:07.100 people are

00:54:07.760 more politically

00:54:08.380 awakened

00:54:08.900 than they

00:54:09.520 have been

00:54:10.020 certainly

00:54:10.640 in my

00:54:11.060 lifetime.

00:54:12.040 And that

00:54:13.680 to me is

00:54:14.320 a bloody

00:54:15.400 good thing.

00:54:16.860 But then I

00:54:17.660 also have

00:54:18.260 the same

00:54:18.800 concern as

00:54:19.480 Eaton Dale.

00:54:20.440 And that

00:54:20.960 is that

00:54:21.420 people watching

00:54:22.060 what's

00:54:22.380 happening to

00:54:22.840 me,

00:54:23.400 people watching

00:54:24.020 what the

00:54:24.360 last four

00:54:24.900 years of

00:54:25.340 my life

00:54:25.780 have been.

00:54:27.620 And I

00:54:27.980 don't think

00:54:28.420 my mother

00:54:28.740 would tell

00:54:29.160 any of

00:54:29.460 my,

00:54:29.660 I've got

00:54:29.900 a younger

00:54:30.960 brother

00:54:31.220 who's

00:54:31.580 18.

00:54:32.820 I don't

00:54:33.380 think she'd

00:54:33.800 advocate that

00:54:34.320 he get

00:54:34.640 involved in

00:54:35.120 politics,

00:54:35.620 put it

00:54:35.820 that way.

00:54:36.980 And I'm

00:54:37.280 not sure I

00:54:37.820 could look

00:54:38.140 him in the

00:54:38.460 eye and

00:54:38.740 tell him

00:54:38.980 he should

00:54:39.240 as well.

00:54:39.600 And he's

00:54:40.240 a hell of a

00:54:40.600 lot cleverer

00:54:41.100 than I

00:54:41.440 am.

00:54:42.940 And that's

00:54:43.700 quite a sad

00:54:44.320 state of

00:54:44.800 affairs.

00:54:45.900 Everyone should

00:54:46.600 feel that they

00:54:47.140 have purchase

00:54:47.860 in our

00:54:48.260 society.

00:54:49.460 Everyone should

00:54:50.040 feel that they

00:54:50.900 can get

00:54:51.280 involved in

00:54:51.920 the democratic

00:54:52.460 process.

00:54:53.680 But if you've

00:54:54.380 got the

00:54:54.780 wrong views,

00:54:56.020 they'll come

00:54:56.600 for you.

00:54:57.720 They will

00:54:58.220 seek to

00:54:58.920 destroy you

00:54:59.880 and your

00:55:00.600 life.

00:55:01.400 That's what

00:55:01.920 this is all

00:55:02.440 about with

00:55:02.920 me.

00:55:03.760 These people,

00:55:04.500 people, and

00:55:05.180 I don't

00:55:05.720 think I'm

00:55:06.100 being

00:55:06.260 grandiose or

00:55:07.220 verbose in

00:55:07.940 saying this,

00:55:08.940 they want

00:55:09.660 to destroy

00:55:10.500 me.

00:55:11.500 They basically

00:55:12.840 want nothing

00:55:13.740 more than for

00:55:14.320 me to shut

00:55:14.920 my big

00:55:15.360 gob and

00:55:16.220 go away.

00:55:17.580 Because people

00:55:18.480 are listening

00:55:19.140 and that's

00:55:19.820 what they

00:55:20.080 can't stand.

00:55:21.580 Again, going

00:55:22.300 back to Brexit

00:55:22.980 and since then

00:55:23.780 with the

00:55:24.040 general election

00:55:24.680 result, people

00:55:26.420 are finally

00:55:27.460 saying enough

00:55:28.540 is enough.

00:55:29.860 The left

00:55:30.420 vote after

00:55:31.120 2017 with

00:55:32.480 the fluke

00:55:32.980 election and

00:55:33.560 Theresa May

00:55:34.220 making a

00:55:34.960 right balls

00:55:35.640 up of it,

00:55:36.960 that the

00:55:38.280 left were

00:55:38.860 going to

00:55:39.240 win.

00:55:40.020 I think

00:55:40.460 they got

00:55:40.700 a bit

00:55:40.920 complacent

00:55:41.580 and thought

00:55:41.920 Jezza could

00:55:42.500 storm it

00:55:43.160 Jeremy Corbyn.

00:55:44.140 He had the

00:55:44.500 Russians behind

00:55:45.100 him.

00:55:45.220 He had the

00:55:45.700 Russians.

00:55:46.280 Stop

00:55:46.760 slandering my

00:55:47.940 country.

00:55:48.900 We had

00:55:49.380 nothing to

00:55:50.080 do with

00:55:50.480 that.

00:55:50.720 Even we

00:55:51.080 looked at

00:55:51.460 that and

00:55:51.740 went,

00:55:51.900 no, we're

00:55:52.380 not touching

00:55:52.840 Comrade

00:55:53.220 Corbyn.

00:55:54.580 But people

00:55:55.300 in this

00:55:55.900 country said,

00:55:56.500 no, I'm

00:55:56.840 absolutely sick

00:55:58.080 of you people

00:55:58.700 belittling

00:55:59.260 and what's

00:55:59.620 good about

00:56:00.040 this country.

00:56:00.660 I actually

00:56:01.020 quite like

00:56:01.500 Britain.

00:56:01.860 I'm not

00:56:02.060 ashamed to

00:56:02.460 be British.

00:56:03.740 I'm not

00:56:04.100 ashamed of

00:56:04.640 all of

00:56:04.900 these values

00:56:05.440 that I

00:56:05.740 hold dear.

00:56:07.160 I think

00:56:07.760 we saw

00:56:08.180 that recently

00:56:08.760 with the

00:56:09.800 BBC

00:56:11.400 Prom's

00:56:12.040 decision,

00:56:12.640 rolling back

00:56:13.320 on playing

00:56:14.340 some of

00:56:14.760 those precious

00:56:16.060 national

00:56:16.560 anthems that

00:56:17.480 we value.

00:56:18.600 The one

00:56:19.120 time a year

00:56:19.680 that we get

00:56:20.520 to sing

00:56:20.860 these songs

00:56:21.480 and the

00:56:21.740 BBC

00:56:22.100 saying,

00:56:23.220 oh,

00:56:23.460 coronavirus

00:56:23.860 offers us

00:56:25.020 an absolutely

00:56:25.640 amazing

00:56:26.500 opportunity to

00:56:27.340 get rid of

00:56:27.760 some of

00:56:28.000 these head

00:56:28.420 banger

00:56:28.720 patriotic

00:56:29.300 songs,

00:56:29.760 doesn't

00:56:29.980 it?

00:56:30.760 And the

00:56:31.080 British

00:56:31.280 people said

00:56:32.320 no.

00:56:33.340 And I

00:56:33.620 think we

00:56:34.200 are starting

00:56:35.100 to say no

00:56:35.800 to these

00:56:36.220 people more.

00:56:37.240 And we need

00:56:37.760 to continue

00:56:38.280 saying no.

00:56:39.420 Because as

00:56:40.040 Douglas has

00:56:40.620 said, and I

00:56:41.000 think actually

00:56:41.520 he said it

00:56:41.900 on your

00:56:42.240 show, see

00:56:43.320 I do

00:56:43.600 listen, he

00:56:45.580 said, if

00:56:47.020 someone, if

00:56:47.700 a friend

00:56:48.180 who, if

00:56:48.980 someone you

00:56:49.560 knew offered

00:56:51.120 you some

00:56:51.500 advice and

00:56:52.260 you knew

00:56:52.680 they don't

00:56:53.140 have your

00:56:53.460 best interests

00:56:54.140 at heart,

00:56:55.280 you would

00:56:55.640 ignore them.

00:56:56.460 You would

00:56:56.640 ignore that

00:56:57.060 advice.

00:56:58.160 A mate that

00:56:58.740 does have

00:56:59.160 your best

00:56:59.500 interests at

00:57:00.060 heart, you

00:57:00.480 would say,

00:57:01.060 yeah, I'll

00:57:01.440 take that

00:57:01.740 on board,

00:57:02.160 maybe I

00:57:02.460 should shut

00:57:03.300 my gob a

00:57:03.720 bit more.

00:57:04.460 It's advice

00:57:04.820 I might have

00:57:05.760 to take.

00:57:06.240 But when

00:57:09.000 someone really

00:57:09.720 doesn't wish

00:57:10.280 you well, you

00:57:11.260 should apply

00:57:11.740 that to a

00:57:12.280 nation as

00:57:12.940 well and

00:57:14.060 just start

00:57:14.580 saying no

00:57:15.160 to people.

00:57:16.200 And I

00:57:16.380 think that's

00:57:16.740 what we've

00:57:17.120 got to

00:57:17.540 start doing

00:57:18.060 on those

00:57:18.800 who are

00:57:19.940 I think

00:57:21.140 putting a

00:57:21.540 real chilling

00:57:22.000 effect on

00:57:23.280 principles that

00:57:24.060 we hold

00:57:24.580 dear and

00:57:25.420 have done

00:57:26.000 for much

00:57:26.660 longer than

00:57:27.120 anyone in

00:57:27.600 this room

00:57:28.040 has been

00:57:28.420 alive, which

00:57:29.700 are those

00:57:30.300 democratic

00:57:30.920 principles of

00:57:31.840 a free

00:57:32.160 society, free

00:57:33.780 speech, free

00:57:34.740 expression, a

00:57:36.220 free and

00:57:36.580 open press, and

00:57:38.100 long may that

00:57:38.740 continue, but

00:57:39.840 at the minute

00:57:40.480 it really is

00:57:42.040 under threat.

00:57:43.660 And again, it

00:57:45.260 sounds grandiose

00:57:46.440 for anyone that

00:57:47.000 hasn't read the

00:57:47.700 story, but just

00:57:49.260 read the quote

00:57:50.220 from the

00:57:50.740 Metropolitan

00:57:51.080 Police, you

00:57:51.920 know, they

00:57:52.180 are actually

00:57:53.020 investigating this,

00:57:54.700 investigating a

00:57:55.660 journalist for

00:57:56.420 having the

00:57:56.740 temerity to

00:57:57.260 have on a

00:57:57.700 controversial

00:57:58.160 guest.

00:57:59.180 What does

00:57:59.720 that say about

00:58:00.460 where we're at

00:58:01.200 as a society?

00:58:03.480 Do you think

00:58:03.720 they've made an

00:58:04.180 example of you

00:58:04.900 because of who

00:58:05.520 you are?

00:58:06.220 Well, listen, I

00:58:10.220 don't, I said

00:58:12.020 to your producer

00:58:13.580 on the way up

00:58:14.300 here, I said, I

00:58:16.040 don't like to

00:58:17.040 think of myself

00:58:17.660 as a conspiracy

00:58:19.100 theorist.

00:58:20.480 I think COVID's

00:58:21.520 turned us all

00:58:21.960 into conspiracy

00:58:22.560 theorists, Darren.

00:58:23.500 Maybe, but I

00:58:26.740 must admit there

00:58:27.640 is an element of

00:58:28.460 us that thinks

00:58:29.120 controversial

00:58:31.040 channel, check,

00:58:32.940 bit of a big

00:58:33.560 mouth, check,

00:58:34.440 not really

00:58:35.480 afraid to say

00:58:36.080 what he

00:58:36.360 thinks, check.

00:58:38.220 Maybe it

00:58:38.820 would send a

00:58:39.460 pretty strong

00:58:40.000 signal if we're

00:58:41.240 fucking

00:58:41.580 down here.

00:58:43.320 Yeah.

00:58:44.580 I mean, it's

00:58:45.540 not as if we

00:58:46.020 haven't pissed

00:58:46.520 people off, let's

00:58:47.360 be fair.

00:58:47.940 No, we're

00:58:48.460 next.

00:58:48.980 Yeah.

00:58:49.180 So you do

00:58:50.640 sense that it's

00:58:51.580 something that

00:58:52.500 people might be

00:58:53.780 used as a, you

00:58:54.680 know, as an

00:58:55.680 example to us, for

00:58:56.460 example, we might

00:58:57.120 look at that and

00:58:57.720 go, well, let's not

00:58:59.000 have David Starkey

00:58:59.900 back.

00:59:00.220 What if he says

00:59:00.880 something wrong?

00:59:01.820 Or, you know,

00:59:02.560 other people who do

00:59:03.840 what we do might

00:59:05.340 look at it like that

00:59:06.300 too.

00:59:06.500 Maybe.

00:59:07.040 I mean, I

00:59:07.360 wouldn't be

00:59:07.680 surprised rather if

00:59:09.100 the complainant, the

00:59:10.140 person that made the

00:59:10.960 complaint to the

00:59:11.660 police, and by the

00:59:12.280 way, it says it went

00:59:12.960 to Durham police

00:59:13.800 first.

00:59:14.520 So I don't know if

00:59:15.700 that was just someone

00:59:17.260 assuming because of my

00:59:18.400 accent, I live in

00:59:19.180 Durham and therefore

00:59:20.140 they report me to

00:59:21.140 Durham police.

00:59:22.080 Who knows?

00:59:23.400 But I wouldn't be

00:59:24.160 surprised if it was

00:59:24.980 some lefty lawyer

00:59:26.320 type, you know, an

00:59:27.200 activist type, who's

00:59:28.940 made the complaint.

00:59:29.780 But whether or not

00:59:31.740 the police have

00:59:32.420 jumped on it and

00:59:34.020 thought, ooh, look

00:59:35.800 at this lads, cracking

00:59:37.000 burglary now.

00:59:39.900 Darren Grimes, I'm

00:59:41.860 up for this, crack

00:59:43.080 on.

00:59:44.080 Who knows?

00:59:44.820 I don't know.

00:59:45.740 I can't say I don't

00:59:46.820 have the facts.

00:59:48.460 But what's for sure

00:59:50.920 is that it does have

00:59:52.860 really serious

00:59:53.560 repercussions even

00:59:54.560 now.

00:59:55.520 Even now there might

00:59:56.520 be some young

00:59:57.320 podcaster sat

00:59:59.040 thinking,

00:59:59.780 well, you know,

01:00:01.680 I was about to

01:00:02.260 swear there.

01:00:04.460 Bollocks to this

01:00:05.280 essentially.

01:00:06.400 I just did swear.

01:00:07.300 So there we are.

01:00:08.460 You were allowed to

01:00:08.960 swear.

01:00:09.260 Brilliant.

01:00:10.200 Yeah.

01:00:11.200 You meant to say

01:00:12.140 fuck this.

01:00:12.800 I did.

01:00:13.280 I did.

01:00:13.880 Yeah.

01:00:15.640 I'm starting to

01:00:16.400 sound like my

01:00:16.800 mother there.

01:00:17.320 I did.

01:00:19.820 And I'm thinking

01:00:21.580 twice about

01:00:22.580 interviewing someone.

01:00:23.940 We're not a

01:00:24.680 society that should

01:00:25.640 be making people

01:00:26.460 think twice about

01:00:27.380 conducting a bloody

01:00:28.300 interview.

01:00:28.980 Come on.

01:00:29.420 We are better

01:00:30.060 than this.

01:00:31.500 And I think

01:00:32.120 that just to

01:00:33.620 really highlight

01:00:34.740 how serious it

01:00:35.800 is, that

01:00:36.200 coalition that I

01:00:37.080 mentioned, you

01:00:38.200 know, Ash

01:00:38.700 Sarker, Tim

01:00:39.500 Farron, Nick

01:00:40.300 Timothy, you've

01:00:41.720 put them three in a

01:00:42.640 bed and they're

01:00:43.320 pretty unlikely

01:00:44.180 bedfellows, aren't

01:00:45.220 they?

01:00:45.420 They'd be pretty

01:00:46.420 uncomfortable elbowing

01:00:47.620 each other pretty

01:00:48.340 quickly, I imagine.

01:00:50.800 So things are a

01:00:52.900 fuss.

01:00:53.340 I hope it doesn't

01:00:54.240 go any further, but

01:00:55.340 I've had contact from

01:00:56.840 the mail today saying

01:00:58.200 that, daily mail,

01:00:59.980 saying that the Met

01:01:01.220 Police don't wish to

01:01:02.460 change their statement.

01:01:03.700 So it looks like it's

01:01:04.620 going ahead.

01:01:05.300 It looks like everything's

01:01:06.380 continuing as it was.

01:01:07.980 I am willing to

01:01:08.920 fight it all the

01:01:09.580 way, just because,

01:01:11.980 listen, I can't live a

01:01:12.920 life which doesn't have

01:01:14.140 trigonometry in it.

01:01:15.440 So I've got to keep

01:01:16.440 having to keep it on.

01:01:17.280 Very good.

01:01:18.520 You've got yourself in

01:01:19.460 our good books, not

01:01:20.800 that you needed to or

01:01:22.040 that you weren't there

01:01:22.880 already.

01:01:25.080 It boggles the mind

01:01:26.560 what this is even

01:01:27.760 happening is absurd.

01:01:29.080 You make the point, and

01:01:29.980 I think it's a point

01:01:30.620 well made, that actual

01:01:32.380 ordinary crime is not

01:01:33.640 being investigated.

01:01:34.360 I had my car broken

01:01:35.260 into a few roads from

01:01:36.660 here the other day or a

01:01:38.380 few months ago.

01:01:39.560 I got a crime reference

01:01:40.820 number for insurance.

01:01:42.000 No investigation, even

01:01:43.120 though there was CCTV

01:01:44.040 there.

01:01:44.600 There could have been

01:01:45.020 plenty of witnesses,

01:01:46.000 right?

01:01:46.180 There are people who've

01:01:47.920 had their houses

01:01:48.580 burgled, there are

01:01:49.440 people who've been

01:01:50.080 attacked, muggings, all

01:01:51.640 that sort of thing.

01:01:52.200 Yeah, but were the

01:01:52.760 criminal wearing masks?

01:01:54.000 Exactly.

01:01:54.820 Maybe that was the

01:01:56.160 mistake he made.

01:01:57.080 This is absurd.

01:01:59.820 And we should all say

01:02:01.080 it, but let me put the

01:02:03.580 counterpoint to you, and

01:02:04.580 it's very easy for me to

01:02:05.760 sit in this chair and

01:02:06.840 say this, and for you

01:02:09.340 I'm sure it's very

01:02:10.220 different, but the

01:02:11.320 argument that a lot of

01:02:12.420 people who don't like

01:02:13.260 it will make is, look,

01:02:14.960 this is great for

01:02:15.780 Darren.

01:02:16.180 This is brilliant.

01:02:17.580 This investigation is

01:02:18.660 going to happen.

01:02:19.380 They can't prosecute

01:02:20.300 this.

01:02:20.620 This is absurd.

01:02:22.160 He will never go

01:02:22.860 anywhere, but he'll get

01:02:23.920 the attention, the

01:02:24.920 notoriety, his numbers

01:02:26.520 will go up on YouTube,

01:02:28.120 he'll do another

01:02:28.800 fundraiser, and

01:02:30.420 everything will go back

01:02:31.600 to Darren being

01:02:32.540 wonderful, and he can

01:02:33.600 continue to spout

01:02:35.260 forward his right-wing

01:02:36.380 bigotry.

01:02:37.040 There are two points

01:02:37.920 I'd make there.

01:02:38.440 The first being that my

01:02:40.100 solicitor has said

01:02:42.000 that this is

01:02:43.840 unprecedented use of the

01:02:45.860 Public Order Act.

01:02:47.140 Now, the Public Order

01:02:48.200 Act is a 1986 act.

01:02:50.700 I didn't know that

01:02:51.480 before last week, and

01:02:53.400 that was passed by

01:02:54.200 Margaret Thatcher's

01:02:54.960 government.

01:02:55.820 Now, correct us if you

01:02:57.640 think I'm wrong, but I

01:02:59.200 don't think Margaret

01:02:59.980 Thatcher was sat there

01:03:01.040 in number 10, rubbing

01:03:02.020 her hands, thinking,

01:03:02.940 I'd like this legislation

01:03:06.340 to be used to tackle

01:03:08.260 those who dare have the

01:03:09.640 temerity to have

01:03:10.480 controversial guests on

01:03:11.680 their show.

01:03:12.680 I think it was to

01:03:13.880 combat genuine forms of

01:03:16.100 stirring up racial

01:03:16.860 hatred.

01:03:17.860 You know, those who

01:03:18.500 really do want to cause

01:03:20.480 those harm who they

01:03:22.080 don't like based on the

01:03:23.660 colour of their skin.

01:03:25.320 And not someone

01:03:27.180 interviewing someone

01:03:28.140 who has controversial

01:03:29.560 views, but clearly in

01:03:31.560 my eyes, only stirred up

01:03:33.360 hatred against himself.

01:03:35.120 Right?

01:03:35.900 So that would be the

01:03:36.840 first point, is that

01:03:37.620 this is quite serious in

01:03:39.240 the sense of legislation

01:03:40.800 is now being used in a

01:03:42.840 way in which it hasn't

01:03:43.720 in the past.

01:03:44.360 As far as my solicitor's

01:03:45.340 concerned, this is

01:03:46.120 unprecedented use of the

01:03:48.180 Act.

01:03:49.500 So putting that, you

01:03:51.740 know, marker there.

01:03:52.440 The second point is

01:03:54.100 that it's all well and

01:03:57.180 good for people to say,

01:03:58.220 oh, well, he's loving

01:03:58.820 the attention.

01:04:00.620 You know, a lot of

01:04:01.360 people might think that

01:04:02.260 I am some loud mouth

01:04:05.200 narcissist who quite

01:04:06.520 likes, you know, being

01:04:08.620 able to be invited on

01:04:09.920 your show, for example,

01:04:11.840 which obviously I am,

01:04:12.900 by the way.

01:04:13.960 But the idea that I

01:04:16.160 want many months, if

01:04:18.460 not years, of my life

01:04:20.540 taken up after I

01:04:22.420 after four years of

01:04:23.380 litigation, not too

01:04:24.840 long ago, I only was

01:04:26.560 cleared by the

01:04:27.140 Metropolitan Police for

01:04:28.040 the Electoral Commission

01:04:28.760 charge earlier this

01:04:30.080 year during lockdown.

01:04:31.600 This is the second time

01:04:33.200 I have been facing a

01:04:35.180 charge, an investigation

01:04:36.420 by the Metropolitan

01:04:38.280 Police in one year.

01:04:40.100 The idea that I am

01:04:41.780 rubbing my hands with

01:04:42.740 glee saying, oh,

01:04:43.720 goody, goody, think of

01:04:44.760 all the attention I'm

01:04:45.680 going to get, is

01:04:46.740 absolutely insane.

01:04:48.300 I would like nothing

01:04:50.140 more than to be able to

01:04:51.980 just sit and interview

01:04:53.240 people, to be a

01:04:54.500 journalist, to write

01:04:55.820 column pieces on what I

01:04:57.440 think would be best for

01:04:58.800 people that come from

01:04:59.620 backgrounds like mine in

01:05:00.860 the red wall seats.

01:05:02.140 I would like nothing more

01:05:03.400 than to be a regular

01:05:04.440 token head again, to go

01:05:06.520 back to living life like

01:05:07.920 a normal person who

01:05:09.120 didn't feel that they had

01:05:10.180 a crosshair over their

01:05:11.200 head.

01:05:11.840 But one thing I will say

01:05:13.240 to that is that I'm in a

01:05:15.560 lucky position, I have

01:05:17.480 this platform, I'm able

01:05:19.160 to be invited onto your

01:05:20.360 show and talk about this

01:05:21.820 and why it's so serious.

01:05:23.500 Many people that are

01:05:24.540 accused of these

01:05:25.320 vexatious charges for

01:05:26.860 thought crimes,

01:05:28.060 essentially, won't be in

01:05:29.740 that position.

01:05:31.020 They will have to fight

01:05:32.120 this without financial

01:05:33.520 means.

01:05:34.300 They will have to fight

01:05:35.340 it with the free legal

01:05:37.320 advice that's offered to

01:05:38.540 them.

01:05:39.120 They don't have the

01:05:40.200 means to, if I do have

01:05:42.480 to, crowdfund, for

01:05:43.600 example.

01:05:44.000 And what are we doing

01:05:45.960 about those people?

01:05:47.320 It's those people that I

01:05:48.700 want us to start having a

01:05:49.800 conversation about and

01:05:51.440 what we're doing to them.

01:05:53.920 So that's why the free

01:05:55.160 speech union is so bloody

01:05:56.480 important.

01:05:57.480 And I would ask all of

01:05:58.980 you as watching this, I'm

01:06:01.220 looking down the camera

01:06:01.920 now, to join the free

01:06:03.360 speech union and support

01:06:04.400 them because I think it's

01:06:05.600 such vitally important

01:06:06.820 work that we do start to

01:06:08.820 fight back against this

01:06:09.880 because it's having a real

01:06:11.160 chilling effect on free

01:06:13.160 speech and debate, not

01:06:14.860 just for people, gobshites

01:06:16.260 like me with a hundred

01:06:17.960 and however many thousand

01:06:19.580 followers on Twitter.

01:06:20.660 Oh, I don't need to rub

01:06:21.540 it in there.

01:06:22.880 But for every Tom

01:06:23.900 Dick.

01:06:24.080 Ten times as much.

01:06:24.980 Yeah, exactly.

01:06:26.320 And what does that matter

01:06:27.340 in the grand scheme of

01:06:28.380 things?

01:06:28.700 You know, it's about the

01:06:29.840 Tom, Dick and Harry out

01:06:31.300 there, or Felicity, I've

01:06:32.640 had to mention a woman,

01:06:33.700 otherwise I'd be

01:06:34.160 cancelled.

01:06:35.540 Out there on the street

01:06:37.220 being accused of things.

01:06:38.660 And, you know, there was

01:06:40.120 this, there was that

01:06:41.600 story, wasn't there, where

01:06:42.620 someone beat the horn and

01:06:44.560 they were accused of a hate

01:06:46.120 crime for doing so.

01:06:47.780 And it's just like, this is

01:06:48.920 actually insane.

01:06:50.220 Come on.

01:06:51.140 We can't be this.

01:06:52.440 We are better than this.

01:06:53.500 This is the United Kingdom

01:06:54.520 of Great Britain and

01:06:55.340 Northern Ireland.

01:06:56.260 We lecture countries like

01:06:57.840 yours about democracy.

01:07:00.960 I'm leaving.

01:07:01.760 I was going to say, do

01:07:05.720 you think that the

01:07:07.060 lockdown and the COVID

01:07:08.000 situation has made it

01:07:09.160 worse?

01:07:09.780 Well, there are clearly a

01:07:10.740 lot of people sat on, not

01:07:12.800 up to much at the minute,

01:07:14.440 aren't there?

01:07:15.660 Three of no fault of their

01:07:16.640 own, but, you know, living

01:07:18.600 off the taxpayer for the

01:07:19.760 most part, and that's about

01:07:21.360 to change.

01:07:21.900 That's all of us, really.

01:07:22.760 Yeah.

01:07:23.300 Well, so that's clearly, it

01:07:27.880 must be a factor.

01:07:28.740 Um, but I, a lot of

01:07:32.180 commentators, much more

01:07:33.180 learned than I am, have

01:07:34.340 said that actually they

01:07:35.800 think lockdown and the

01:07:38.640 coronavirus across the

01:07:40.580 West has sped up the

01:07:41.660 culture wars by a factor

01:07:42.780 of 10.

01:07:43.420 And I think that probably

01:07:44.660 must be right.

01:07:45.760 And I actually naively

01:07:47.440 thought the opposite.

01:07:48.980 During the start of

01:07:50.420 lockdown, I was saying,

01:07:51.720 well, a virus that has

01:07:53.780 squirreled many of us,

01:07:54.980 billions of us behind

01:07:56.020 doors must make us

01:07:58.460 reevaluate our priorities

01:08:00.440 as a country, as a

01:08:01.960 society across the West.

01:08:05.340 You know what, Darren?

01:08:06.160 It's exactly what I said,

01:08:07.460 and this is where it helps

01:08:08.420 to have a depressive

01:08:09.200 sidekick.

01:08:10.120 We're mugs.

01:08:10.780 Because France has

01:08:11.500 predicted all of this,

01:08:12.420 didn't you, mate?

01:08:13.000 Yeah.

01:08:13.560 Yeah, I just see the

01:08:14.400 moment everyone gets

01:08:15.640 behind a computer,

01:08:17.180 extended access to

01:08:18.300 social media.

01:08:18.920 Well, you were bang

01:08:19.120 on then, clearly.

01:08:20.100 Yeah, the only time it's

01:08:20.840 happened.

01:08:21.700 So let me ask you, do

01:08:22.860 you think I'm going to

01:08:23.620 prison?

01:08:24.620 No.

01:08:25.240 Oh, well, that's good.

01:08:26.100 That's good.

01:08:26.600 I think that they're

01:08:28.920 going to consult lawyers

01:08:29.800 and they're going to

01:08:30.660 realise that their

01:08:31.300 position is legally

01:08:32.160 untenable.

01:08:33.160 Plus, they're also going

01:08:34.740 to take on board the

01:08:36.700 prevailing winds of what

01:08:37.900 people are thinking and

01:08:38.920 saying publicly.

01:08:40.220 It seems to me an

01:08:41.760 entirely stupid thing to

01:08:43.520 do.

01:08:43.820 However, no, I don't

01:08:46.460 think so.

01:08:47.480 However, no, you are

01:08:50.080 going to prison.

01:08:50.620 No, no, I honestly, I

01:08:54.500 mean, the Metropolitan

01:08:55.640 Police have done many

01:08:57.000 ridiculous things in

01:08:58.500 their time, but this

01:09:00.060 would be one step too

01:09:01.080 far, in my opinion.

01:09:02.420 Yeah, and having said

01:09:03.380 that, Darren, even if

01:09:05.000 that is the case, and I

01:09:05.940 sincerely hope that it

01:09:06.880 is, and I think, you

01:09:08.040 know, sanity will prevail

01:09:09.220 in the end, the point

01:09:10.840 that you make about the

01:09:11.820 chilling effect of this

01:09:12.760 is undoubtedly there.

01:09:13.980 I think people will

01:09:14.680 massively underestimate

01:09:15.660 the impact.

01:09:16.900 You're clearly a very

01:09:17.840 strong, resilient young

01:09:19.560 man, but I think even

01:09:21.040 for someone like you

01:09:21.820 as someone who's been

01:09:22.480 in a much smaller way

01:09:24.000 in the spotlight, I

01:09:24.660 know the toll it can

01:09:25.820 take, and the idea

01:09:27.460 that this is something

01:09:28.920 that is without

01:09:29.660 consequence, or even

01:09:31.800 beneficial, I think it

01:09:35.140 misses the point very

01:09:36.540 significantly.

01:09:37.800 And I don't think

01:09:38.820 incidentally, and this

01:09:39.720 is a point that you

01:09:40.380 make as well, the

01:09:41.600 entry into politics,

01:09:43.060 into debate, should

01:09:44.080 only be for people who

01:09:45.500 are sort of, who've got

01:09:46.740 a perverse brain like

01:09:47.680 the three of us who

01:09:48.440 are willing to have

01:09:49.360 that fight, who are

01:09:50.200 willing to be called

01:09:51.840 terrible names, who

01:09:53.500 are willing to go as

01:09:54.880 far, in your case, as

01:09:55.760 being investigated by

01:09:57.520 the police.

01:09:58.160 Actually, we need sort

01:09:59.340 of more shrinking

01:09:59.940 violence in politics.

01:10:01.320 We need people who

01:10:02.220 can't deal with what

01:10:03.740 you're dealing with

01:10:04.320 right now, but have a

01:10:05.680 valuable contribution to

01:10:06.840 make to society.

01:10:08.000 And the fact that all

01:10:08.940 of those people are now

01:10:09.800 being squeezed out and

01:10:11.080 alienated from the

01:10:12.540 political process is a

01:10:13.820 travesty.

01:10:14.620 Exactly.

01:10:15.100 And that's exactly what

01:10:16.120 Ian Dale said in this

01:10:17.240 piece at the weekend.

01:10:18.620 yesterday, this week

01:10:20.980 has dragged.

01:10:22.820 You know, he was

01:10:23.680 saying the next round

01:10:24.460 of political commentators,

01:10:25.760 why would the day, why

01:10:26.720 would the bother if this

01:10:28.240 is what Darren Grimes is

01:10:29.340 going through?

01:10:31.500 And you're exactly

01:10:32.900 right, because in a lot

01:10:33.940 of ways, I am a bit of a

01:10:35.440 freak, right?

01:10:36.000 If you consider the fact

01:10:36.980 that, you know, I was

01:10:38.960 already quite resilient by

01:10:40.360 having gone through

01:10:41.300 everything I went through

01:10:42.100 as a kid.

01:10:42.700 quite a tough upbringing.

01:10:45.640 You know, a man got

01:10:46.500 divorced and we ended up

01:10:48.320 using a food bank at one

01:10:49.400 point.

01:10:50.500 I had tough times and

01:10:52.220 that makes you quite a

01:10:53.040 strong person.

01:10:54.420 You know, I had four

01:10:55.240 years of litigation with

01:10:56.320 the Electoral Commission,

01:10:57.660 vexatious charges made by

01:10:59.080 the press.

01:10:59.700 You get used to it.

01:11:00.600 You develop a bit of a

01:11:01.680 thick hide.

01:11:02.400 I'm now experiencing

01:11:04.280 this and I, whilst the

01:11:07.820 only thing I am worried

01:11:08.760 about is the consequence,

01:11:10.120 the repercussions it has

01:11:11.880 on my family, not on me.

01:11:14.180 You know, I'm used to it

01:11:15.460 now.

01:11:16.000 But you're absolutely

01:11:17.000 right.

01:11:17.440 You've nailed it,

01:11:18.200 basically, in that

01:11:19.820 argument of it shouldn't,

01:11:23.780 politics shouldn't be the

01:11:25.040 preserve of people like

01:11:27.100 me who have had to get

01:11:29.160 tough, who have had to go

01:11:30.840 through this journey.

01:11:33.000 It should be the

01:11:34.120 preserve of those who

01:11:35.560 just care about the

01:11:36.680 democratic process, who

01:11:37.840 are passionate about

01:11:38.720 something.

01:11:39.280 I don't care if it's

01:11:40.880 taxpayer subsidies for

01:11:42.420 gardening.

01:11:43.300 Who cares?

01:11:44.240 You should be able to

01:11:45.480 feel that you have a

01:11:46.480 right to put your head

01:11:47.360 above the parapet and

01:11:48.260 argue your case.

01:11:50.020 And at the minute, I

01:11:51.340 feel like we are

01:11:52.060 creating, unless that

01:11:54.580 could be an ultra-walk

01:11:55.600 gardener, then you're

01:11:56.480 fine.

01:11:56.880 But it shouldn't be the

01:11:59.420 case that we decide

01:12:00.720 that you can get in

01:12:02.380 politics, but only if

01:12:04.440 you subscribe to this

01:12:05.980 increasingly narrow

01:12:07.060 parameter of views.

01:12:09.340 Only if you align with

01:12:11.220 this increasingly narrow,

01:12:13.040 and I would argue,

01:12:15.380 what is placing, even

01:12:17.440 that's placing a chilling

01:12:18.420 effect on our politics,

01:12:20.100 because politicians, et

01:12:21.200 cetera, are now saying,

01:12:23.480 well, I can't say X, Y, and

01:12:24.660 Z, because I'll get

01:12:25.840 cancelled by X, Y, and Z.

01:12:27.340 And there are so many

01:12:29.340 things where we do just

01:12:32.040 need to start saying no.

01:12:33.820 Otherwise, politics will

01:12:35.300 become the preserve of the

01:12:36.520 freaks like me, who are

01:12:38.160 resilient enough to stand

01:12:39.840 and big enough.

01:12:40.720 They have platforms to

01:12:42.300 withstand this sort of

01:12:43.420 thing and be a target.

01:12:45.140 Politics shouldn't be the

01:12:45.980 preserve of people like

01:12:47.580 me who have built up a

01:12:48.620 following, who have been

01:12:49.780 through four years of

01:12:50.660 litigation.

01:12:51.580 Four years of litigation

01:12:52.800 should be a one-off.

01:12:54.720 You know, that should be

01:12:56.040 an extreme case scenario.

01:12:58.240 But actually, increasingly,

01:12:59.840 those with views that

01:13:01.220 left activists don't like

01:13:03.600 are facing litigation,

01:13:05.440 whether that be liable,

01:13:06.720 whether that be, I don't

01:13:07.920 know, they've sent out a

01:13:08.740 tweet that someone doesn't

01:13:09.820 like.

01:13:11.260 And politics is becoming

01:13:13.720 increasingly a dangerous

01:13:15.120 arena to be in.

01:13:16.660 And that's not good for any

01:13:17.960 democracy.

01:13:18.580 That's not healthy for any

01:13:19.640 democracy.

01:13:20.740 You know, we might not face

01:13:21.860 the same repercussions in

01:13:24.040 other countries as far

01:13:25.020 as press freedom is

01:13:27.640 concerned.

01:13:27.980 You know, we're not

01:13:28.400 going to be murdered for

01:13:29.300 our views.

01:13:30.680 But our careers could be.

01:13:33.400 Our livelihoods could be.

01:13:35.860 And that's surely,

01:13:37.960 obviously, not as serious,

01:13:39.740 but serious.

01:13:41.420 And what we're seeing with

01:13:42.400 the Metropolitan Police is

01:13:43.460 almost an endorsement of

01:13:46.220 what we're seeing in our

01:13:47.340 politics at the minute.

01:13:49.360 And the Met Police should be

01:13:51.060 far outside of that.

01:13:52.640 The Metropolitan Police

01:13:54.020 should be there to protect

01:13:56.120 the law, to put in place

01:13:57.660 the law.

01:13:58.200 Doesn't seem to be doing a

01:13:59.240 lot of that as far as, you

01:14:01.640 know, burglaries and all the

01:14:02.980 rest of it are concerned.

01:14:04.380 And instead focusing on

01:14:05.740 political acts like hate

01:14:08.660 crime legislation, because a

01:14:09.820 few woke activists have said,

01:14:11.580 well, actually, I'm offended.

01:14:14.060 And that to me is so wrong.

01:14:16.100 So wrong.

01:14:16.820 Darren, the question I wanted

01:14:18.480 to ask you is, imagine you had

01:14:19.980 a time machine and you went

01:14:21.540 back to that kid who was

01:14:22.820 18 years old, about to get

01:14:25.040 into politics.

01:14:26.060 Would you tell him not to do

01:14:27.020 it?

01:14:28.520 Depressively, yeah, I would.

01:14:29.720 I would actually.

01:14:30.580 Really?

01:14:31.020 Yeah, definitely.

01:14:32.060 A hundred percent.

01:14:33.900 I mean, I am a much stronger

01:14:37.320 person now than I was when I

01:14:39.520 was 18.

01:14:41.200 I've obviously been through

01:14:42.360 quite a lot and I wouldn't

01:14:43.860 wish it on my worst enemy.

01:14:45.040 I really, really wouldn't.

01:14:47.780 But I guess basically because

01:14:49.940 of what I put my family

01:14:50.940 through, you know, a council

01:14:52.520 estate in County Durham, they

01:14:53.660 had the press at the door

01:14:55.520 telling them that, oh, they'll

01:14:57.300 be able to help the son out.

01:14:58.980 My mother helped her son out if

01:15:00.460 she speaks to the press.

01:15:02.700 And it's that sort of thing

01:15:04.080 where you just think they're

01:15:04.940 working nine to five.

01:15:06.420 They're going out doing their

01:15:07.340 jobs.

01:15:08.200 Even my little brother who was

01:15:09.440 at school at the time was

01:15:10.560 asked questions by the press.

01:15:11.880 And it's just, it's not nice.

01:15:13.620 It's not a nice thing to put

01:15:15.500 someone through.

01:15:16.820 So honestly, no, I wouldn't.

01:15:19.700 But I'm here now.

01:15:20.980 So it's a case of tough luck,

01:15:22.940 but a cup.

01:15:23.700 And I'm going to try and use

01:15:25.500 my voice and my platform to

01:15:27.360 make society one better for my

01:15:29.680 family and families like them

01:15:31.040 up and down the country.

01:15:32.400 But secondly, we now know

01:15:35.620 through my own experience just

01:15:38.480 what the repercussions are of

01:15:41.580 the activism within the law is

01:15:44.580 concerned.

01:15:45.980 And I really think that if I,

01:15:48.660 using my platform, can try and

01:15:51.060 provoke, I think I've done that

01:15:53.000 already, some form of debate

01:15:55.360 around this, that can't come a

01:15:57.860 moment too soon.

01:15:59.220 Especially, as I said, that the law,

01:16:01.660 when they are considering

01:16:03.720 expanding hate crime law to make

01:16:06.520 the situation even worse and make

01:16:09.280 more people even more vulnerable

01:16:11.200 and susceptible to vexatious

01:16:13.040 charges like this one, we do need

01:16:15.940 to actually take a step back,

01:16:18.300 re-evaluate where we're at and

01:16:20.360 have a conversation about why

01:16:22.400 don't we?

01:16:23.100 Novel idea.

01:16:24.380 If you disagree with someone,

01:16:26.200 have a conversation with them.

01:16:27.900 Don't go to the police.

01:16:30.440 Who knows?

01:16:31.280 It could work out.

01:16:32.680 Well, Darren, it's obviously an

01:16:34.120 evolving story.

01:16:35.400 We're recording this, as I say,

01:16:36.600 on Sunday night, it'll go out

01:16:38.600 Monday or Tuesday.

01:16:40.320 So by the time this goes out,

01:16:42.380 who knows what's happened?

01:16:43.680 So I would urge, and agreeing with

01:16:47.120 you for anyone who's listening to

01:16:48.840 this, to join the Free Speech

01:16:49.900 Union, Francis and I, both on the

01:16:51.400 advisory board of it, because it's

01:16:52.960 really important so that there's

01:16:54.580 protection for people like you,

01:16:55.840 but also, as importantly, you

01:16:57.060 mentioned people who don't have the

01:16:59.000 same platform as you do.

01:17:00.720 And equally, I'd urge people, if you

01:17:02.840 end up needing their help to help

01:17:04.620 you and support you, because

01:17:05.860 irrespective of whether someone's

01:17:07.780 listened through this and thought,

01:17:09.120 I don't agree with a single thing

01:17:10.280 this guy thinks about politics,

01:17:12.340 the fact that you're being

01:17:13.340 investigated by the police is

01:17:14.860 absurd, and it shouldn't happen.

01:17:17.280 And I hope that that coalition from

01:17:19.480 all the way from Ash Sarkar to

01:17:20.980 everybody on the other side works.

01:17:23.120 I hope you don't end up being

01:17:24.460 prosecuted, which will be absurd

01:17:26.180 again.

01:17:27.040 I don't think it will be.

01:17:28.740 But all power to you.

01:17:30.540 Thank you.

01:17:31.440 We are very much on your side.

01:17:32.940 Our audience will be on your side

01:17:34.360 as well.

01:17:35.080 And obviously, any help we can

01:17:36.580 give you, we will.

01:17:38.800 But we always have one more

01:17:40.020 question for our guests.

01:17:40.840 It's a pity that it's in these

01:17:41.820 circumstances, but nonetheless,

01:17:43.440 it's there.

01:17:44.280 And it is.

01:17:44.980 What's the one thing we're not

01:17:45.920 talking about as a society, but

01:17:47.940 we really should be?

01:17:49.000 Well, I've got two brothers back

01:17:51.440 home who are both unemployed

01:17:52.760 because of the coronavirus

01:17:54.500 economic response.

01:17:56.780 They are both, I guess, not as

01:18:00.080 inclined with the academic route.

01:18:02.040 And I reckon we should be talking

01:18:03.680 a hell of a lot more about

01:18:04.780 different forms of education.

01:18:06.420 Why are we not talking about

01:18:07.460 technical education?

01:18:08.840 There seems to be a relentless

01:18:09.840 focus, especially along the sort

01:18:11.920 of media commentariat, who are

01:18:14.640 obviously overwhelmingly

01:18:15.720 university educated, to focus on

01:18:18.320 university education.

01:18:19.960 And actually, I think we as a

01:18:22.300 country, why don't we have more

01:18:23.880 plumbers?

01:18:24.220 Why don't we have more and

01:18:26.000 actually open up different levels

01:18:28.440 of education and different types

01:18:30.040 of education so that those who

01:18:31.820 don't want to go on to university

01:18:33.500 can actually benefit from, whether

01:18:35.620 that be a grammar school to a

01:18:36.860 technical education.

01:18:38.360 And it's that sort of thing that

01:18:39.280 I'm quite passionate about,

01:18:40.380 actually, and would really help

01:18:41.880 seats that Boris Johnson has won

01:18:44.400 for the first time for the

01:18:45.300 Conservative Party in that general

01:18:47.180 election last year.

01:18:49.120 We're not talking about these

01:18:50.580 sort of things.

01:18:51.180 Instead, I'm talking about being

01:18:54.060 hauled into a police station.

01:18:56.180 But never mind.

01:18:57.040 I'm sure eventually we'll get

01:18:58.360 there.

01:18:59.180 Yeah, hopefully we will.

01:19:00.660 Well, actually, very soon we'll

01:19:02.780 have an interview with David

01:19:03.660 Goodhart coming out, who's

01:19:04.820 talking about this very...

01:19:05.820 Yeah, his book is brilliant.

01:19:06.980 So make sure you tune in for

01:19:08.000 that.

01:19:09.120 Yeah, but you were going to thank

01:19:10.120 Darren, I think.

01:19:10.780 Yeah, I think, Darren, thank you

01:19:12.080 so much for coming on.

01:19:13.720 We hope this isn't the last time

01:19:15.260 we see you.

01:19:16.640 That was meant to be a joke.

01:19:18.180 Oh, well, fantastic.

01:19:19.560 Read the fucking room.

01:19:20.720 Jesus Christ.

01:19:22.240 I'm teasing.

01:19:22.900 And I'm sure that this will be

01:19:24.820 exposed as a nonsense.

01:19:26.380 It is.

01:19:27.140 Thank you so much for coming on.

01:19:28.340 If people want to follow you,

01:19:30.160 where is the best place to do

01:19:31.340 that?

01:19:32.260 At Darren Grimes underscore.

01:19:33.880 Don't do it if you're just going

01:19:34.940 to send abuse, right?

01:19:37.600 And thank you for watching.

01:19:39.480 After all that Russophobic

01:19:41.000 abuse, I'm off to make Darren

01:19:42.400 a little cup of tea.

01:19:44.120 Thank you so much, guys.

01:19:45.780 Thank you for tuning in.

01:19:47.180 Our episodes go out on Wednesday

01:19:48.720 and Sunday at 7pm.

01:19:50.380 And the live streams go out.

01:19:51.840 When do they go out, Constantine?

01:19:53.080 Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and

01:19:54.700 Saturday.

01:19:55.160 But obviously, this interview will

01:19:56.360 probably go out a little bit

01:19:57.500 earlier than Wednesday, so it may

01:19:58.900 be a bit different this week.

01:20:00.100 In any case, 7pm every day.

01:20:02.260 We're here for you.

01:20:03.420 See you soon.

01:20:04.220 And if we don't see you soon,

01:20:05.380 we'll see you at the police

01:20:06.160 station.

01:20:06.760 Take care, guys.

01:20:07.540 Bye, guys.

01:20:11.760 Bye.

01:20:13.940 Bye.

01:20:14.600 Bye.

01:20:18.760 Bye.

01:20:19.320 Bye.

01:20:21.800 Bye.

01:20:23.180 Bye.

01:20:23.960 Bye.

01:20:24.340 Bye.

01:20:24.460 Bye.

01:20:24.760 Bye.

01:20:25.920 Bye.

01:20:26.460 Bye.

01:20:26.700 Bye.

01:20:27.360 Bye.

01:20:29.740 Bye.

01:20:34.720 Bye.

01:20:35.220 Bye.

01:20:35.740 Bye.

01:20:35.920 Bye.

TRIGGERnometry - October 12, 2020

Darren Grimes Speaks Out on Police Investigation

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