TRIGGERnometry - Dave Smith VS Triggernometry： War, Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson and the American Empire

00:00:00.000 the people of the United States of America never had a referendum on empire we don't want to pour

00:00:07.300 money into all these different parts of the world and I don't agree with you that we get more bang

00:00:10.800 for our buck than we otherwise would yes Iran funds groups that are a pain in the ass to Israel

00:00:17.460 that is certainly true and there's a big it's more than a pain in the ass Dave let's be fair

00:00:22.240 it's about taking Israelis hostage raping them killing women killing children dragging them off

00:00:29.000 to the dungeons and holding them there for power that's not the same as what the IDF is doing would

00:00:33.640 you accept that no I don't really think that's right if you're talking about this conflict and

00:00:37.200 you're going to put yourself in their perspective put yourself in their perspective the end result

00:00:40.960 is that they're going through that at a much larger scale than the Israelis my issue comes with people

00:00:47.100 when they interview the Nick Fuentes of the world and they do not give an appropriate pushback on

00:00:52.940 ideas I don't agree that if you don't push back on someone's ideas you're endorsing it okay I

00:00:57.320 understand there's going to be people who praise Hitler and people who praise Stalin but you can't

00:01:01.460 praise both man like you gotta be good you gotta be good on the other one

00:01:05.140 this episode is sponsored by our friends at Hillsdale College right after this episode go check out the

00:01:12.160 incredible online courses which are absolutely free at hillsdale.edu slash trigger

00:01:18.240 Dave Smith this has been waiting to happen for a long time the internet wanted it to happen you're

00:01:25.040 here nice to meet you thanks for coming on oh thank you guys both for for having me I agree it's

00:01:29.040 been long anticipated I'm glad we were able to make it happen yeah and you and I put individually we've

00:01:34.300 debated stuff before and one of the things I've always really genuinely enjoyed about it is I think

00:01:39.340 we come at the world from very different directions but it's always a discussion of the issues yeah and

00:01:45.480 there's not enough of that a lot of of the conversations in our space have become very ad hominem etc

00:01:51.020 that's not why you're here and that's how we're gonna approach it I think uh from for our angle so

00:01:56.440 speak for yourself yeah Francis has a list of quotes from 2012 yeah well it'd be great if me and you did a

00:02:03.640 good faith debate and me and you just did like a vicious and we could just go back and forth I like

00:02:07.940 that yeah we can try it out try both ways but anyway it's nice to have you on uh before we get into

00:02:12.720 it a lot of our audience actually won't know your background or your story who you are they'll just

00:02:17.800 know that they see you talking about certain things and whatever so tell us a little bit about

00:02:22.020 you first of all um well I'm from here uh from New York City where we're recording this interview

00:02:27.580 and uh born and raised in Brooklyn New York um I started stand-up comedy in 2006 I think and then I

00:02:36.600 uh became very uh interested in the uh Ron Paul presidential campaigns and I got sucked down the black

00:02:44.640 hole of being obsessed with all of these issues that we all talk about all the time and then I

00:02:49.100 just been podcasting for the last 15 years or so and it's uh for a long time to basically no audience

00:02:55.480 and then over the last few years to somewhat of an audience which is better and the Ron Paul thing

00:03:01.020 that attracted you was his position on foreign policy and non-interventionism yeah at first that

00:03:05.980 was the thing that really drew so I was like um you know I think much similar to you uh that we're

00:03:10.980 like around the same age and I think our kind of coming of age was the was 9-11 and the war on

00:03:15.480 terrorism and the Iraq war specifically and so at that point you know this is 2007 when I first found

00:03:21.480 Ron Paul so at that point you know the wars have been going and going really badly for for several

00:03:26.680 years and also all of the pretenses for the war have kind of been exposed at this point of you know

00:03:31.460 down to not just the weapons of mass destruction but like every detail of it just wrong um and so I was

00:03:37.500 essentially like you know I'm a Jewish kid who was raised by a single mom in Brooklyn so I was

00:03:41.600 like a liberal but without like really thinking much about it that was just the correct thing to

00:03:45.220 be um so I liked I had probably kind of like a standard liberal critique of George W Bush you know

00:03:51.840 um and I liked uh the movie Fahrenheit 9-11 or whatever even though yeah it turns out that was all

00:03:57.660 wrong um but it was but I was with the spirit of like yeah we're against George W Bush and I remember

00:04:03.820 in 2006 being happy that the Democrats won the Congress back and uh I actually you know I was

00:04:10.540 really dumb enough to believe them at the time I was like well that's the end of that you know

00:04:14.920 they're not going to fund the war anymore and so that was kind of like a moment of like disillusion

00:04:19.900 where I was like oh for all for all the stuff that Nancy Pelosi talks she's going to keep funding

00:04:25.620 George W Bush's war even though she has the purse strings now so I was kind of a little bit like

00:04:29.920 I had I'd woken up to that and then when I saw Ron Paul in the famous Ron Paul Giuliani moment

00:04:35.920 I was like oh this guy is actually radically more anti-war than any of these these Democrats who are

00:04:42.120 kind of squishy on the issue um and and I just thought his I thought his perspective like blew my

00:04:48.700 mind on it and it was something like when he really explained blowback and how these wars got started I

00:04:54.480 was like wow this really makes a lot of sense so I was very interested in that and then just because

00:04:59.700 I liked him and I was interested I read his book and I just wanted to learn more about him

00:05:03.540 and then he kept making the case for like free market economics and really free market economics

00:05:08.640 like substantially more free market than the free market you know typical advocates and I thought

00:05:14.340 to myself like that's got to be wrong there's got to be something that like he's missing so I almost

00:05:19.460 wanted to read about it to find the flaw in it and along the way I ended up getting converted

00:05:25.840 and became the libertarian day walking autist that you see in front of you

00:05:30.180 so that was kind of your journey which was looking at 9-11 and everything that happened

00:05:38.600 and I don't think people understand for our generation that had a profound effect it had

00:05:44.580 such a profound effect because you know the crew that we've got you know they're younger lads and

00:05:49.000 we talked to them and it doesn't resonate but for us who grew up because I'm pretty much the same age

00:05:54.700 there was before 9-11 there was after 9-11 it was it literally felt like there was day then there was

00:06:00.920 night yeah I mean it's like uh and even now looking back at it all these years later it almost it feels

00:06:07.460 like the moment you know like in a time traveling movie like that's the moment that we got to we got

00:06:11.900 to go back and change because it didn't just change the mentality of of the country and the western

00:06:16.160 world for that matter but it actually changed the country like we live in a different country

00:06:20.840 post 9-11 than we did before 9-11 we did live in a different world yeah yeah no that right and I mean

00:06:26.200 there's um like there wasn't a department of homeland security there wasn't a TSA there wasn't a war on

00:06:31.440 terrorism there wasn't this um the constant emergency state that we've been living in since 9-11 you know

00:06:37.900 even in like in the immediate aftermath of 9-11 when they passed the patriot act like even in the

00:06:43.160 immediate aftermath of 9-11 it was controversial there were people who were like whoa this is

00:06:47.220 really un-american to start saying we don't need a judge to sign off on a warrant before we start

00:06:51.840 surveilling people and all this stuff and what they put into the patriot act right was like a sunset

00:06:56.480 provision that well this will have to be approved every six years or whatever it is um and and we'll

00:07:02.560 have to come back and justify that the emergency is still here but that's just it just gets approved

00:07:07.760 constantly I mean I think they changed the name of it one year or whatever but it just keeps getting

00:07:11.100 essentially my point is we've just accepted that we're in a permanent state of emergency

00:07:15.940 since 9-11 and we govern that way um and I think it was you know we we probably were ignoring a lot

00:07:24.160 of problems in the 90s but you kind of can't overstate to young people like you were talking

00:07:28.560 about today how different the world was back then it was not so much better in so many ways but look

00:07:34.420 the um you know there were racial issues obviously in America but the obsession with racialism was

00:07:41.900 just nothing like it is today uh pre-9-11 the um the country was a much freer country the government

00:07:48.580 was a much smaller government um and and there just was a there was a feeling of security perhaps an

00:07:55.500 illusion of security that was really ripped away from a lot of people and what happened is that there

00:08:01.120 was obviously 9-11 there was Afghanistan which you can debate should we have got involved should we

00:08:05.960 not have should we have stayed for so long all of those questions perfectly valid but I think where

00:08:12.000 most sane people say we made a colossal error was Iraq and Iraq in many ways I was thinking about this

00:08:20.060 the other day when I was going for a walk and people might get a little bit triggered by this but

00:08:23.960 it was kind of our generation's Vietnam where we went oh well what you said and what the truth is

00:08:31.000 those are two separate things I would go even beyond that which is it's not just what you said it's like

00:08:37.580 there were millions of people on the streets of Britain when we were we would have been I don't

00:08:42.140 remember how old we would have been uh we would have been 2003 so we were in 2021 so yeah so we'd be

00:08:47.560 2021 millions of us protesting against this saying the thing that then turned out to have been exactly

00:08:54.940 true and yet our governments went and did it and also made the world less safe and more unstable as

00:09:00.860 a result no that's right I mean look the the thing with Afghanistan right is that the real catastrophe in

00:09:06.480 Afghanistan was that the because the choice was made to not I mean immediately after 9-11 even well

00:09:11.640 before the army invaded the the CIA and special forces were taking out al-qaeda you know cells in

00:09:17.540 in Afghanistan I don't think anybody was arguing against that or right if there is someone arguing

00:09:21.760 against that that's a very fringe you know argument but the decision was made that no we're not just

00:09:27.040 going to to take out the al-qaeda cells but we're going to fight a regime change war against the Taliban

00:09:32.140 which is a totally separate thing like it's a it's a much different thing to say like they're guilty of

00:09:36.800 the crime of housing somebody who planned to attack us because no one was really alleging

00:09:42.460 that the Taliban was in on the plans for 9-11 it was just that they essentially rented a room to

00:09:48.820 Osama bin Laden and his guys that's a you know that's like going to war with the landlord because

00:09:53.820 a murderer look maybe it's a little bit different it's a little bit it's certainly not a given that

00:09:58.660 we should they rented a room because they really like this guy Osama sure sure and I'm not looking

00:10:03.900 we had our government had a long history with the Taliban both positive and negative um but yeah

00:10:09.520 I mean look the Iraq war and then also just the fact that like the fact that they put this axis

00:10:16.840 of evil together of Iraq Iran and North Korea three countries that the only thing they have in common

00:10:22.720 is that none of them had anything to do with 9-11 like it just clearly was not about that and it was

00:10:27.660 very transparent I mean I guess to this day and maybe we'll debate like people still debate what exactly

00:10:32.720 the motivation to go into Iraq or what exactly you know led to all of these wars or what the

00:10:36.980 components were but the thing that everybody kind of just knows is that the Bush administration had

00:10:42.200 a bunch of war-hungry people in in their ranks and that they used 9-11 essentially as an opportunity

00:10:47.900 to cash this blank check for war and I do think and I've tried to express this many times because I

00:10:53.780 do think it's like fair to be as charitable as possible I think they believed in the hype like I think

00:10:58.820 that they believed like these were like when they said it'll be a cakewalk I think that's what they

00:11:02.740 envisioned like that it was like I don't know this again they still had 90s mentality they were looking

00:11:07.180 at the war in Serbia or the you know the interventions in the Balkans or they were you know and going this

00:11:13.220 will be easy look at the 91 war in Iraq we could just go overthrow Saddam we can top the Soviet Union's

00:11:18.440 gone we could topple all these countries but what it ended up being I mean is just like you know the

00:11:25.380 greatest catastrophe of the 21st century I mean just millions of people slaughtered tens of millions

00:11:30.560 of people displaced or injured and you know and and every last one of the countries every theater

00:11:35.800 worse off than it was before and it's really interesting to see the impact that has had on

00:11:42.040 America because it's had an impact in the UK but it hasn't had as visceral an impact in the as in

00:11:49.580 has in the US amongst our generation and to the Tucker's generation as well like I look at Tucker

00:11:56.380 and his anti-interventionist stance and I think a lot of it and we've constantly I talk about this all

00:12:02.700 the time we think that a lot of it comes from the fact that you know if you are pro war and pro

00:12:09.160 intervention then you see something go so horrifically wrong so terribly wrong and it's not

00:12:15.060 just the you know the millions of people that died it's also the servicemen that come back who believed

00:12:21.040 in an idea had their let's be fair they had their lives completely ruined and the the number of them

00:12:28.660 that then went on to commit suicide or develop drug problems alcohol problems that would if I was gung-ho

00:12:35.660 which I wasn't but if I was that would really make me look at myself in a very deep and profound way

00:12:42.280 well I think I yeah I think that's completely true and I think Tucker would say that and has said

00:12:46.600 that himself um but I think like one more layer to it is then also seeing that so many of the people

00:12:53.740 who advocated to this for this war with certainty that they were right talked down to all the rest

00:12:59.140 of us like we were a bunch of idiots for having these these concerns that with certainty said you

00:13:04.560 know we will be greeted as liberators and democracy will sweep the region and the war will be paid for

00:13:08.720 and oil and it'll be a cakewalk and all of this stuff and they have weapons of mass destruction

00:13:12.460 obviously the big one and then we're completely unaffected by that and then just started advocating

00:13:18.160 for the next war and the next war and the next war with the exact same condescension toward people

00:13:22.840 saying like hey well what if this turns out to be a catastrophe what if you're not right about all of

00:13:27.860 this and so I think there was what happened with a lot of people like Tucker Carlson and there's a lot

00:13:32.660 of people in that that camp I mean I think uh like Ann Coulter um uh I think Laura Ingram to some degree

00:13:38.760 kind of like the more paleo-ish wing of of the essentially a bunch of them were following the

00:13:44.660 neocons lead when they were in power and then I think it was that I think it was not just that the

00:13:50.280 Iraq war was a disaster but that they kept advocating for more of it afterward and then they'd be

00:13:55.580 like whoa these people really do just want to fight wars endlessly like it was almost I mean I think

00:14:00.720 I saw Ann Coulter once even say she thought like the left-wing caricature of neocons that they just

00:14:06.340 always want to fight wars she thought was the dumbest thing ever when when the George W Bush

00:14:11.100 was in power and then in the subsequent years she was like I really got no response to them anymore

00:14:15.580 I mean that does seem to be at every take like there's not it's very strange to me and look I guess

00:14:21.200 people could accuse me of the equal opposite like I'm almost always opposed to the war well I was about

00:14:26.000 to do that maybe I can because we're coming to an era where I think there is a profound

00:14:30.240 disagreement which is Francis and I both viewed the see in Britain the war in Iraq was even worse

00:14:37.180 because the only reason we went to war in Iraq is we didn't want to ruin our relationship with big

00:14:43.580 brother right right right we little brother you know big brother wants to get in the fight what

00:14:47.540 are you going to do that's basically what happened right but but wasn't it unpopular in Britain like

00:14:52.020 I don't think it ever had majority support that's what I'm saying right what I'm saying so just so

00:14:55.820 Tony Blair making the decision to go if you read between the lines of what he said at the time it

00:15:01.940 was basically like well if we don't do this America won't be our friend anymore yeah and by the way if

00:15:07.800 you're Britain that's kind of a big deal sure so so you you know I don't necessarily um think that

00:15:14.940 that truth was was a fake truth that was real like that's a real concern if you're the British

00:15:20.320 prime minister you have to think about what happens if you're no longer America's friend

00:15:24.600 that doesn't mean killing sure sure right but here's what I was going to ask you because

00:15:30.940 we had that same reaction to Iraq in particular but I also think the going to the other extreme and

00:15:39.800 saying there is no situation when we have to go out and particularly if you are America and look

00:15:45.740 I know we this is maybe an error we might disagree as well you like it or not America is a global empire

00:15:51.520 America's five percent of the world's population consumes consumes 25 percent of the world's resources

00:15:56.680 that's why you guys are so prosperous that's why you're doing as well as you are it's why you get to

00:16:01.900 have your way in all sorts of international debates and discussions and whatever but that empire

00:16:07.200 is maintained by sometimes getting the club out and going you guys need to fall in line here

00:16:14.100 is that a fair assessment I mean I think it's to some degree a factual assessment I mean yes America

00:16:19.480 is an empire and in order to be an empire yeah there has to be like a threat of violence that you're

00:16:24.640 going to have to use at times so I don't disagree with that but I guess I would just say that like

00:16:28.500 you know if we're accepting that as the premise that like look America is this empire well then it's

00:16:34.220 like I do think at a certain point because I see so many conversations about democracy and the rule

00:16:39.400 of law and all of this fuck all that well well I'm just saying but but that's my point I'm Russian

00:16:43.780 it's like real politic well that's that's the thing which I think it almost leads you to accept look

00:16:47.320 the people of the United States of America never had a referendum on empire we never decided that

00:16:52.580 we wanted to be an empire and in fact I could argue that the peace candidate running for president

00:16:57.780 almost always wins I mean like it's almost always a huge advantage you can go all the way back the last

00:17:02.760 hundred years um and the constitution the law of the land does not say that we're an empire we're

00:17:08.420 supposed to be a limited constitutional republic and you can't be both you can't be a limited

00:17:13.500 constitutional republic domestically and a global empire abroad why is that because a government that

00:17:20.440 is big enough to rule the whole world is also too big to be a limited government it's too big to be

00:17:26.640 a limited constitutional government and in fact it can't be limited it needs to have emergency powers it

00:17:31.560 needs to be able to as you just said it exert force anywhere around the world if someone's not

00:17:36.740 acting the way you want to act and so to me that's the whole essence of the game is that it's like if

00:17:42.300 we're going to be an empire we can't be a republic I see and so if you want to save the republic we have

00:17:46.960 to abandon empire I see that it's an interesting perspective I mean I'm not sure that's necessarily

00:17:50.660 true in terms of the size of government because you could have a very significant military and

00:17:56.420 foreign service and the apparatus of government for dealing with foreign conflict while leaving

00:18:01.360 your citizens mostly alone I think that's possible well you got to tax them to pay for it at the very

00:18:06.180 least well well the thing is this is what I was going to say is you might need to tax them to pay

00:18:10.560 for it but think about what you lose when you cease being an empire this is my point about five percent

00:18:15.920 twenty five percent of the resources consumed right like are the American people really prepared for

00:18:21.900 the consequences of not being an empire that dominates the world because you got to think

00:18:25.920 and this is kind of how the world works and we do know this America pulls back that vacuum isn't

00:18:31.900 going to stay there we'd agree on that right like Russia and China whoever else can would fill that

00:18:37.080 void we see this in Africa right America pulled out of Africa the Chinese to a lesser extent the

00:18:42.700 Russians but the Chinese especially are basically coming in and taking over nature abhors a vacuum so

00:18:48.080 that's always been my argument and I'm keen to genuinely hear your perspective on this is like

00:18:52.380 America you can you know you can you had Aramati on the show he called it like the death star

00:19:00.060 that was quite funny there was so many people who have livid in the comments where he called

00:19:04.520 the American empire yeah you know it's called chickenometry for a reason but my point my point

00:19:10.000 being right is what the choice you have actually in the real world is between an American-led world

00:19:17.740 or a Chinese-led world or a Russian-led world and then I go which of those would I rather live in

00:19:24.000 long before 1776 before Washington and Jefferson there was another generation men and women who

00:19:31.260 crossed an ocean to build a new kind of civilization they faced hunger war and wilderness but they built

00:19:36.940 communities practiced self-government and discovered that liberty and virtue had to go hand in hand

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00:21:12.500 well so i think okay so i do agree like generally speaking right that like something will fill a

00:21:18.540 vacuum um but i don't think the choices between an america-led world or a china-led world or a russia-led

00:21:24.180 world i think what ends up filling those vacuums like it's not inevitable that it's going to be a

00:21:28.320 hegemon that it's going to be one in fact the unipolar moment which i think is kind of

00:21:33.100 over at this point but the unipolar moment is the aberration that that's like usually not the way

00:21:39.520 the the world has worked historically usually there are different competing powers and they have their

00:21:44.640 spheres of influence and then so in other words yes it might be true that there are there are areas

00:21:49.940 where china fills the vacuum but look even um which was kind of interesting i think to see over

00:21:55.260 when donald trump first came in right when he was going we're not going to fund the war in ukraine

00:21:59.280 anymore then you had european countries going like okay well we're going to step up i totally

00:22:03.800 agree with right so but i'm just saying so so in a sense the fact that america say it didn't end up

00:22:09.820 happening but like let's just say america withdrew in that instance well there might be several other

00:22:14.240 people who end up filling that vacuum and you might so like decentralization can also happen

00:22:18.560 it's not that a vacuum doesn't get filled but it might get filled by multiple parties

00:22:22.860 america is still america is still involved in the war though right right no i'm saying that didn't

00:22:27.900 actually end up happening i'm just saying that's because you didn't pull out right that's my that

00:22:31.720 you didn't pull out though if you had pulled out ukraine would get overrun and then you've got a

00:22:37.660 whole new problem and this is kind of i think where there's a genuine disagreement about the ideas

00:22:42.500 of this because i just i come from a place where we don't have political correctness in russia

00:22:48.480 so people don't pretend that all of this shit isn't true right you know all of this stuff american

00:22:54.560 people are told about you know we're going out there to spread democracy or they hate us because

00:22:59.740 of our freedom i mean with islamism we'll get onto that that is partly true but generally speaking it's

00:23:05.780 about we want to control the land yeah we want to control the money we want to control the oil we want

00:23:11.540 to control the rare earth minerals now if we accept that which i think we both agree on then you go

00:23:17.080 well do i want americans being in charge of that or do i want the chinese being in charge of that

00:23:22.340 again though i mean i think it's like it's not strictly like i don't think look we are even

00:23:27.580 though i mean china's a big economy and as a lot of people but we are substantially richer yeah than

00:23:32.940 china is you know and we're going broke being the world empire i don't think china is looking at what

00:23:39.000 we're doing and saying you know what we should do we should get in on these 20-year catastrophe

00:23:43.180 forever wars and really have our our society crumble while we waste all these resources and so

00:23:49.380 like i don't again i don't think it's going to be a global like hegemon unless it's the u.s right now

00:23:55.700 but that being said i mean i i think empire is always a losing game i mean it's i think it's good

00:24:03.000 for the ruling elite but i think it always like kind of ends up costing more to the nation than it ends

00:24:08.220 up uh producing always really well okay i shouldn't maybe that's an overstatement i maybe

00:24:13.300 not in every single instance you know in general broadly speaking i think that's the case and i

00:24:17.980 think americans would be far better off if you say whatever resources we get from fighting forever

00:24:23.660 wars i think we'd be far better off to not need to have an inflationary monetary policy an income tax

00:24:30.100 a giant you know like this giant burden i think like if there is one lesson of america

00:24:34.740 it's that actually free markets and true capitalism is what's going to produce the most wealth in the

00:24:41.060 most sustainable and and ethical way but no that i totally agree with uh i'm not sure what you said

00:24:47.160 about empire i mean we had one of the greatest historians of them i'm not resorting to arguments

00:24:52.060 from authority i'm just saying yeah you guys had daryl cooper on

00:24:55.020 dominic uh sandbrook part of the rest is history that i think they've got the biggest history

00:25:02.960 podcast in the world and we talked about he talked about the fact that empires are the natural unit

00:25:06.940 of history like if you look throughout history that tends to be the way that the great powers of

00:25:11.840 the world operate their empires right so i don't know that it's fair to say that america's problems or

00:25:17.360 any country's problems in them are about forever wars because i i don't the entire western world

00:25:23.800 including countries that weren't involved in the foreign wars are all making the same mistake and i

00:25:28.080 think that mistake is not foreign policy although this big as we discussed has been some pretty

00:25:32.720 big mistakes it's about entitlements and benefits and that's true too i mean right sure that's where

00:25:38.500 i think actually we've basically got to a situation and i can't remember whose quota it is but we talked

00:25:43.000 about this with one of our guests where the public have worked out that they can vote to get more

00:25:49.600 shit from the government and punish anyone electorally who says we can't give you more free

00:25:55.240 shit and so in the uk more people take more out of the tax the benefit system than they put in 51

00:26:03.200 of the public right and i think that's really the death spiral that we're in we can't reduce our

00:26:09.340 spending and we can't reduce our debt and we can't reduce our deficit because we don't want to

00:26:14.420 go the free shit yeah well i think that's right and i think um this is true on a lot of different

00:26:19.940 levels right that and certainly i know a bit more about america than than europe but look i mean the

00:26:25.900 bottom line for all this is we have we have a government that's way bigger than what we can

00:26:29.320 afford right just much much bigger than what we can afford and so you can't tax enough to get there

00:26:34.600 so you have to tax your population then you have to borrow a whole bunch of money but even that's not

00:26:39.380 enough so then you've got to print the money right and these are the essentially the three ways

00:26:42.800 government can raise money or can spend money and so what you have now is that right there are these

00:26:48.260 giant entitlement programs that yeah it's much more it's much more politically advantageous for

00:26:53.600 donald trump to say i'll never cut social security or medicare because he's got to lock up that base of

00:26:57.960 seniors who are republicans um and also just the monetary system just keeps the prices of everything

00:27:04.820 going up and up and up and what it ends up creating in a weird way is a justification for socialism

00:27:10.580 i mean you know like when these kids say um they'll say things like profit is theft and i think it's

00:27:17.540 it's very easy for like guys like us to look at it and go hey that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard

00:27:21.400 in my life because the idea that what type of fixed pie fallacy is that that if i go out there and i'm

00:27:27.560 successful that doesn't mean i'm taking it from you that means i'm creating more wealth i'm creating a

00:27:32.840 bigger pie with more slices but the thing is that under this current paradigm they do kind of have a point

00:27:38.920 like i uh i bought a house um three years ago just about exactly three years ago and i just got this

00:27:46.800 is an official appraisal or anything like that but i got a letter from my real estate agent that said uh

00:27:51.420 the house is is up 200 grand in uh the last three years and that does seem based on the listings i've

00:27:58.460 seen the house is selling for that seems about right and you think about that in a way you're like

00:28:02.460 wait so what is that other than like essentially welfare from the system that they're because i'm

00:28:08.900 in the owner class because i got into the owner class three years ago i now get an extra 200 grand

00:28:14.180 of my net worth and the bar for young people to go buy a house is now that much higher it's like i kind

00:28:20.760 of did take that from them in a sense but then like as we're starting to hit this point where the young

00:28:27.400 generation is getting so left behind you still have these entitlement programs that are transfers of wealth

00:28:32.120 from the young people to the wealthier older people and think about how crazy that is and it's crazy

00:28:39.200 especially because there are fewer and fewer young people relative to the number of older people

00:28:43.480 but are you kind of i think you're agreeing with me which i appreciate but isn't that kind of the point

00:28:48.380 that while the foreign wars are bad and wrong and immoral in some cases it's not really them that's

00:28:55.000 causing all this problem all these problems oh i mean it's a huge driver of it too i mean they're all

00:28:58.840 look if you look at the american government it's the at this point it's the entitlements the defense

00:29:03.520 budget and the interest on the debt but the defense but the defense budget isn't about fighting all

00:29:08.220 these foreign wars the defense budget is about protecting your empire which gives you access

00:29:12.520 to you basically control all of europe right america dominates europe you basically decide what

00:29:17.980 happens in western europe uh you dominate parts of asia you get the resources that come with that you get

00:29:23.720 whatever oil you want from wherever you need it you get to control the world you get you have a defense

00:29:29.560 budget not because you want to invade iraq you have a defense budget because you're the biggest

00:29:34.000 country you're you i know you don't like hearing this but in the absence of a neutral world policeman

00:29:40.020 america someone's going to be the world someone's going to be going around kicking ass

00:29:44.160 right um and if you want to and if you want to have the 25 of the world's resources that's you

00:29:49.760 yeah i mean i just i guess i don't mind hearing it i think that is the way things are but it's

00:29:55.040 illegal under our constitution the american people never decided that they want this and in fact the

00:29:59.600 american people are saying pretty loudly we don't want this anymore we don't want to pour money into

00:30:04.280 all these different parts of the world and i don't agree with you that we get more bang for our buck than

00:30:08.040 we otherwise would and look it's very easy even going into like these abstract conversations about

00:30:12.740 like empire or who controls the shipping lanes or what would fill the vacuum if we didn't do that

00:30:18.560 okay but we still blew trillions of dollars on these i mean it's like eight trillion dollars for

00:30:24.760 the the war on terrorism total we agree it was a mistake okay fine fine but right and and we also

00:30:29.720 agree not just a mistake but like a horrifically catastrophic moral mistake immoral yeah but also

00:30:34.240 it's eight trillion dollars i mean that's a huge huge chunk of of this so listen if you're arguing

00:30:40.440 that entitlement programs yes they account for even more of the budget and yes they're a huge part of

00:30:45.620 this whole you know monstrosity of big government so i agree with you on that but no i think look at

00:30:51.120 the very least we'd be way better off had we not just fought all these stupid wars that i that i agree

00:30:57.960 with i'm i was making the point about the defense budget the defense budget isn't for invading iraq

00:31:03.800 the defense budget is for dominating the world sure but again i think this is more to the benefit of

00:31:09.440 the elite than it is to the american people i mean yeah it's like the defense budget is also why

00:31:14.300 the all those uh richest counties in america are the suburbs of washington dc is the reason why the

00:31:20.640 we're making millionaires if you're connected to the weapons companies and it's you know i mean like

00:31:25.200 this is yeah it's it's a again a huge transfer of wealth program essentially transferring it from the

00:31:31.400 working and middle class to the ultra politically connected and so i i think essentially that and this is

00:31:37.720 true for all government spending that's the swamp that's the essence of what the swamp is is that

00:31:43.400 you extract money from the real economy from people who are working and you hand it out to the

00:31:48.360 politically connected as i think it's like criminal so that being the case moving on let's talk about

00:31:54.520 something that nobody's going to get offended by which is the middle east so because your position

00:32:00.840 has been very interesting on the middle east it's mainly been that you've been how should could i

00:32:07.400 characterize it as being kind of pro-palestinian in the in your outlook in the way that you see it or

00:32:13.800 would you put it another way yeah i wouldn't say pro-palestinian i mean i'm not like i'm i don't even

00:32:19.600 know exactly what that means like i'm not saying like i i i'm against what's been done to them um i would

00:32:26.460 you know i would be against that being done to i think just about any group of people so no i don't

00:32:31.020 think i'm pro-palestinian i think i'm pro-american um but i'm certainly a critic of israel's destruction

00:32:36.360 of gaza so what what is it in particular did you feel that it was disproportionate the the violence

00:32:42.760 or the i should put it another way the israeli response to october 7th did you feel that was

00:32:48.700 disproportionate was there another way that it should have been done yeah i mean i think there's lots

00:32:53.500 of other ways that it could have been done and certainly it was disproportionate um but i think

00:32:57.740 that i mean i think it's horrible and i think that it's um that america shouldn't be involved

00:33:03.720 in it i think it's it does nothing but cause a headache for our country and you can see that all

00:33:08.660 over the place like even if you're even if you're for the war you kind of can't deny that like this

00:33:13.780 has caused major turmoil here it was a major problem for the democrats politically it's a major

00:33:18.700 problem for donald trump politically right now it is not good for as it says in the preamble to the

00:33:23.120 constitution it is not good for domestic tranquility at the very least but also yeah i just don't think

00:33:28.640 i don't believe that we should be involved in like this horrific i don't even think you can call it a

00:33:33.940 war the destruction of a captive people because there's a lot of people would say and i'm sympathetic

00:33:40.420 to this which is you have iran which are essentially funding terror cells right the way through the

00:33:45.740 middle east hezbollah hamas amongst others which are effectively destabilizing the region

00:33:50.960 and there's a lot of muslim arabic countries who despise iran because they see them as an

00:33:56.340 existential threat to their existence which they are they are they're islamist in nature

00:34:01.600 so by that you would you would argue that unless you deal with the threat of hamas unless you deal

00:34:08.660 with the threat of hezbollah you are essentially going to have a middle east which is more unstable which

00:34:14.280 is going to become a hotbed of terrorism which eventually is going to impact the safety of

00:34:19.760 nations around the middle east but also in the west and in the united states yeah i think there's

00:34:27.800 been a lot of people who are arguing if we don't take this group out or that group out it's going to

00:34:31.360 lead to instability in the middle east and every single time we go to make that move it leads to

00:34:36.180 more instability in the middle east and i just firm i flat out reject the idea that iran is an

00:34:40.840 existential threat to any of those sunni states in the region but saudi arabia who are we talking

00:34:45.320 about jordan egypt like uae i mean if you speak to people in those countries yeah i'm sure they're

00:34:50.600 concerned about they're very concerned yes of course and there's a sunni shiite beef that's been going

00:34:55.240 on for many many years and there's a lot but the idea that like the u.s sock puppet states over there

00:35:00.640 are really threatened by iran i just don't think is right they do feel that yeah okay fine but like

00:35:06.440 i don't think they're right about that i don't think iran is taking over saudi arabia like what do

00:35:10.360 mean existential threat here they're going to take out one of these countries unlikely take out is

00:35:15.820 you know take out is i mean countries don't tend to take each other out but go to war uh you know

00:35:21.800 they're fighting over interest like they are yeah they're fighting over interest i think that's that's

00:35:26.420 more correct but i also think that there's an interesting thing where when you go like all these

00:35:30.700 uh all the like shiite terrorist groups um or or i guess hamas is whatever but if you're talking

00:35:37.320 about hezbollah hamas uh the houthis like the people who iran have been in business with um and

00:35:43.740 i think of those groups hezbollah the most you know what i mean like there's real direct connections

00:35:49.100 and training and stuff there it's a little bit different with the houthis and with hamas but

00:35:53.260 again those weren't the enemies of the american people you know when we go back to 9 11 and it's been

00:35:59.760 really fascinating how like the war on terror just like totally shifted over to being this whole other

00:36:05.980 group that has nothing to do with knocking our towers down or attacking the pentagon or any of

00:36:11.000 that our beef was always with the sunni radicals and the sunni radicals are actually at war with a

00:36:16.200 lot of those groups that you're talking about so we've weirdly also done this thing now where we've

00:36:20.620 picked sides which i would say i think has a lot more to do with security concerns for israel than it

00:36:25.460 does for the united states of america but now we're on the side of al-qaeda in syria we're on the side of

00:36:31.840 al-qaeda we were in libya we're on the side of al-qaeda in yemen and so like no i actually don't

00:36:37.360 think that's good for for you know if you look over the last 15 years the people who were destabilizing

00:36:43.480 the regions the most were the bin laden head choppers i mean that was really the major problem

00:36:48.240 that we had there and so fighting on those guys side and all of these conflicts i don't think has

00:36:52.520 done anything well the the sunnis have changed right the the saudi regime the uae regime they are

00:36:58.140 very not extremist the saudis used to spread extremism throughout europe they they're not

00:37:02.820 doing it now the people in charge right so the extremists and the terrorists are mostly now being

00:37:08.880 funded and and spread by iran i think is france's point yeah okay but even that i mean i i don't know

00:37:14.700 that that's exactly right i mean i i think you're probably right in your characterization of saudi arabia's

00:37:19.540 evolution in the uae um but at the same time i mean look again again we all agree on this but to go

00:37:26.800 what was the huge mistake here that iran has all this influence in the region it was the iraq war

00:37:31.160 it was the dumbest thing they ever did is that these neocons were convinced you know i was really

00:37:35.260 i was watching the other day uh because david wormser did this interview that was kind of like

00:37:39.700 responding to me which is just weird and surreal feeling um because it's the weird world that we're

00:37:45.100 all in now but he's like talking about he's still arguing that like no if the hashamites had taken

00:37:53.060 over in iraq then the shiites would have had to listen to them and then iran would have had to

00:37:59.320 be nice or hezbollah would have had to be nice to israel but the the obvious truth which was

00:38:04.380 predicted by many people in real time was that obviously we had a dual containment strategy in

00:38:09.560 the 90s right obviously if you took out saddam hussein it was going to hand the region to the

00:38:15.180 shiites who were much closer allied with iran and that was going to increase their influence in the

00:38:20.000 region so again this is called george w bush and barack obama's fault and um and yeah that now that

00:38:27.700 being said i don't think that means that we should go into the next war to try to you know push the

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00:40:30.400 i think the danger was dave is that with iran when they use rhetoric like we want to wipe

00:40:39.080 israel off the face of the earth you know that they are funding terror cells there is the suspicion

00:40:45.260 that they've got nuclear weapons if you say those types of words and you let's say you don't get

00:40:51.720 involved and something awful happens that's going to destabilize the world whatever whatever happens

00:40:58.280 that's going to start a war well no one i don't think anyone's speculating that iran has nuclear

00:41:02.320 weapons i don't think there's any well well they're on the point of maybe getting nuclear weapons which

00:41:07.600 is why the the strike happened um i guess uh i think that um i think that look they they chant mean

00:41:18.280 things is not good but that's also not a justification for a war and or it's nowhere even approaching a

00:41:24.660 justification for a war and i do think it goes beyond chanting main things okay but that is

00:41:28.920 what you brought up so i'm saying like there's look i think when people look at these things like

00:41:34.020 in the same way that if you were looking at a trial you don't just look at what the prosecution says

00:41:37.940 you look what the defense says also even if it's a really really bad person you still look at what

00:41:41.580 the defense says as well if you talk to to people i've talked to several iranians about this but if

00:41:47.440 you ask around why do they hate america why do they hate america what do you think the most common

00:41:52.640 answers are like what because it's very clear there's two that are really big that come up all

00:41:57.060 the time and it's not it's not the same reasons why the bin ladenites hated us it's kind of different

00:42:00.440 things but the two big beefs they have is that we overthrew their government in 1953 and imposed the

00:42:06.040 shah on them and the other one is that we backed saddam hussein when he did the worst thing he's ever

00:42:12.100 done which was launch the war the iraq around war he killed 500 000 iranians and used chemical weapons

00:42:18.520 and all types of horrible things yes they chant mean things about us we could also look at the

00:42:23.420 rhetoric out of dc and out of tel aviv not too friendly toward iran either you know we put them

00:42:29.120 on the axis of evil after 9 11 invaded and destroyed the two countries that touched them

00:42:34.120 right iraq and afghanistan and they were on the axis now that so it's just kind of weird to hear

00:42:39.160 americans or or brits talk about their rhetoric and what a threat they are to the western world it's

00:42:45.080 like hey let's like there's been a lot john mccain was singing bomb bomb bomb around when he was

00:42:49.760 running for president hillary clinton you know you talk about threatening to wipe them off the map what

00:42:54.120 were her exact words if you remember uh it was something you know when she had to like overcompensate

00:42:59.220 being like a woman running for president and she i forget her exact words but it was something we

00:43:02.940 we will uh we will totally eradicate totally decimate around or all of these things well the question was

00:43:09.060 if iran were to launch a nuclear attack on israel what would our response be and i want the iranians to

00:43:14.660 know that if i'm the president we will attack iran whatever stage of development they might be

00:43:19.940 in their nuclear weapons program in the next 10 years during which they might foolishly consider

00:43:25.660 launching an attack on israel we would be able to totally obliterate them that's a terrible thing

00:43:32.480 to say but those people who run iran need to understand that because that perhaps will deter them

00:43:39.260 from doing something that would be reckless foolish and tragic and we actually have the might to do it

00:43:44.680 and we've attacked them they haven't attacked us um so again i would just say that zooming out to the

00:43:50.720 bigger picture yes iran funds groups that are a pain in the ass to israel that is certainly true

00:43:58.120 and there's a bit it's more than a pain in the ass let's be fair yeah you know that was a euphemism

00:44:03.300 obviously yeah yeah but october the 7th is more than a pain in the ass okay but okay fine but i'm

00:44:07.480 saying iran has historically funded hamas hezbollah they've sold arms and it's like okay but like

00:44:14.160 actually iran is zero threat to the united states of america they do not have nuclear weapons they do

00:44:19.720 not have the capability to hit america if they did have those nuclear weapons and the idea of of

00:44:24.880 launching a war of choice a war of aggression because you say they chant mean things and what

00:44:29.440 if we didn't do anything and then something bad happens i just think you're nowhere near the realm

00:44:33.700 of like a just war no no i that i totally agree with but that isn't remotely what's happened here

00:44:39.080 uh no one's launched a war on iran for a preemptive war on iran what israel in the u.s just did they call

00:44:46.020 it the 12-day war so uh what happened is and this is i think it's useful to come back to october 7th

00:44:51.960 october 7th happened and then it became very clear that iran has been funding the organizations

00:44:58.100 that have been attacking israel this entire time now you may agree or disagree about israel being

00:45:03.080 an ally should be an ally or not of the united states but israel is a lot an ally of the united

00:45:08.780 states so uh to the extent that and you know we had uh yossi khan the former director of mossad on the

00:45:14.660 show to talk about the nuclear secrets they stole from iran which then they gave to the united nations

00:45:20.600 and everybody else to see for themselves i mean it's very clear iran would like to have a nuclear

00:45:24.500 weapon and by the way when we asked yossi why do they want one he said because it allows them to

00:45:28.720 project power in the region which is why anyone wants a nuclear weapon right uh i do i think also

00:45:33.060 the deterrent you know i mean and it's not even clear to me exactly that they wanted a nuclear weapon

00:45:37.820 and forgive me i'm not taking mossad's word for it that they do it seems not taking their word it's

00:45:42.160 the documents they stole well sure but they were look they were very clearly do i mean so after 9-11

00:45:49.040 right bush puts the axis of evil of iraq iran and north korea okay so north korea races to get a

00:45:55.500 nuke they get nuclear weapons we've left them alone ever since saddam hussein in 2002 tells the u.n

00:46:02.660 i'll allow inspections regimes to come in kind of waving the white flag where the gaddafi later does

00:46:07.860 the same thing we'll get rid of our chemical weapons program we'll get rid of our nuclear program

00:46:11.140 all of this we go in and topple both of those guys and they get killed publicly iran goes the middle

00:46:17.660 you know so like north korea developed nuclear weapons those other countries got rid of all their

00:46:22.420 weapons iran went hey we're gonna hang out here we're gonna let the world know that we've mastered

00:46:28.700 the fuel cycle we can break out and get a weapon if we want to but we're not doing that yet a kind of

00:46:34.340 standoff of like don't attack us because we could make a nuke but you know we don't want to make it

00:46:39.680 but you know this kind of this vague game but it's a latent deterrent that's the idea here and then

00:46:44.760 they can negotiate from there and that's where they were sitting down to negotiate like what level

00:46:48.580 of enriched uranium they would be at so it essentially i guess the point is that it's

00:46:55.580 hard to then look at them and go this is very suspicious that you haven't gotten rid of your

00:46:59.120 entire nuclear program it's like well the last guys who got rid of their nuclear program ended

00:47:03.040 up sodomized to death in front of an angry crowd of people and the country that got nukes gets left

00:47:07.820 alone i totally agree with that which is one of the reasons i actually believe that if the u.s

00:47:12.320 and europe doesn't help ukraine have a peaceful solution that works you're going to have loads

00:47:17.660 of other countries pursuing nuclear weapons because if no one else is going to protect you

00:47:20.740 you might as well get a nuke like if ukraine had nukes it wouldn't have been evaded right yeah so this

00:47:25.640 is why one of my concerns about allowing these things to get out of hand is actually it helps

00:47:29.660 nuclear proliferation but the point about october 7th and which is why this is important is

00:47:34.620 ultimately you and i can agree and francis i'm sure does too the war in iraq was a mistake lots of

00:47:40.720 mistakes have been made on foreign policy the question is what do you do when you are in the

00:47:46.080 situation when october 7th has happened right and this is a company you know we've had people who

00:47:51.720 have different perspectives on this conflict as you know basim usain was one of them and i asked

00:47:56.580 them what i think is a very legitimate question is like what should israel have done forget about

00:48:01.600 the occupation forget let's accept all that has happened all that has already happened let's accept it

00:48:06.840 and i don't want to argue about it i don't want to go into history because everyone's got their own

00:48:10.300 arguments and blah blah blah blah blah but it's happened what should israel have done and what i

00:48:16.760 mean we were just on rogan show and i think rogan agrees way more with you than he does with us about

00:48:20.720 this but he was like yeah if this if this happened to america we'd be as bad if not worse i don't know

00:48:26.440 i mean i don't know you know it's we could get into that but let me just say i'll say this first and

00:48:31.200 then i will very directly answer your question but first i will say i don't think it's like i get

00:48:35.840 what basim was saying to you about that too like i understand the argument of being like like i could

00:48:40.280 say that the example i made at that charlie kirk event with the now infamous charlie kirk event um

00:48:45.200 but the comments that i made was like hey look if you're pro-life it's not like incumbent on you

00:48:49.680 to have a plan for the baby's education or daycare or something like that like you could just say

00:48:54.760 i'm against this option because i find this morally unacceptable and then you figure it out for the

00:48:59.940 so like my point is like you can't just oppose what israel did to gaza and not have to come up

00:49:04.760 with a solution but i think it's also a fair question to add well i think i think it's fine

00:49:09.360 to say this is morally over the line because ultimately they have to do something okay well

00:49:13.560 fine but no i mean i i also saying that i also think it's an interesting question okay and kind

00:49:18.020 of a thought experiment so i can go to october 8th i can't change anything that's happened before that

00:49:23.200 i have to inherit that world and then what would we do after october 8th well look i mean i do think

00:49:28.600 first and foremost i think netanyahu should have resigned in disgrace i mean netanyahu's entire

00:49:33.560 political career has been very openly built around thwarting the establishment of a palestinian

00:49:39.500 forget about netanyahu but this isn't you're asking me the question i'm asking what no i'm asking i'm

00:49:43.880 not asking what netanyahu i'm saying what should israel have done right well he's the prime minister

00:49:47.840 of israel so this is part of fine then you should resign look also just the fact that dave smith is

00:49:51.880 now appointed prime minister of israel following netanyahu's resignation what does dave smith well

00:49:56.880 sure sure but i'm just saying i mean also the fact that it was his whole plan to prop up hamas and

00:50:01.220 keep them in power that should be enough that you you get out of the way now fine first of all there

00:50:05.000 should be a real investigation man and this is uh i mean this is something that's still to this day

00:50:09.620 i know of course look obviously there's there's a million clips of charlie kirk saying

00:50:13.640 how much he loves israel and then there's other clips that they're all circulating but his first

00:50:18.460 reaction on the patrick david podcast which he did read you know he said that again later at speeches

00:50:23.480 and stuff um was like this it is kind of bizarre that and i've i've talked to like uh military experts

00:50:29.900 who have said the exact same thing they've been like look there is something and i'm not alleging

00:50:34.320 anything i don't know you know i'm not saying it was a false flag or something like that i don't think

00:50:37.820 that's the case so what do you think it is what is it that you think an investigation will

00:50:41.960 well i mean the massive intelligence uh failure how the most uh surveilled area of the world got

00:50:48.540 into the biggest fortress in the world and there was such a long delay in in areas of a response

00:50:54.180 i mean that really should like but what do you think that likely points to i i really don't know

00:50:59.320 because everyone we've spoken to goes you know we've spoken to former soldiers people who've served

00:51:05.360 in idf all kinds of people like that and they basically say look we messed up on a whole set of

00:51:10.860 levels uh the intelligence people like yossi blame the idf the idf blame someone else and that tends

00:51:17.840 to be how these things go down really but but i also with all respect do you get the sense that

00:51:23.420 quite a lot of people that talk about well why did it take them six hours to do this and that i mean

00:51:27.840 we've had former british paratrooper on the show goes well look in the uk we've got i don't remember

00:51:32.420 the exact stats but we've got like x thousand soldiers who are like on prime active duty but that's a

00:51:39.140 24-hour call-up situation right right we don't have you know thousands of people on a one-hour

00:51:45.720 response time when they're in the barracks they just pick up a rifle and head to the front line

00:51:49.540 so i think there's some pretty reasonable explanations for how that could have happened

00:51:53.720 no no quite possibly yeah but but what i get with all respect is that quite a lot of people who ask the

00:52:00.340 question seem to be implying something but they never say what it is that they're implying no i mean

00:52:04.580 well charlie asked the question was there a stand down order i don't know i mean i i you know i don't

00:52:09.960 know but it does seem it does seem to me something really worthy of investigation and really getting

00:52:14.940 to the bottom netanyahu did say this when we interviewed him right what the investigation is

00:52:20.040 super necessary once yeah yeah right once the war is okay fine but you can't have an investigation

00:52:24.400 in the middle of a war uh i guess especially to your point with the person who oversaw the i'm not

00:52:29.680 sure exactly why can't you have an investigation while they're bombing gaza because the bombs have to

00:52:33.840 stop dropping before we can look into that because they're running a war effort imagine being

00:52:37.820 investigated while you're trying to manage a war that doesn't work right i guess i don't exactly

00:52:42.720 understand that but maybe do you not um well i don't know no i mean i think imagine okay well

00:52:46.780 imagine you run a podcast which is a lot easier than running a war right well sometimes it feels

00:52:51.320 right but imagine you were under the the greatest scrutiny in america being investigated by every

00:52:59.720 department this is actually how i feel when i'm running my podcast you're not far off well you've

00:53:03.660 got to stop smoking weed then because it's not that bad right but right imagine you are being

00:53:09.060 investigated by every department and if you are found to have been responsible for a mistake that

00:53:15.080 you made on your podcast or someone that works for you made a mistake that then you have to cop the

00:53:19.900 blame for you you get the the electric chair would that affect your ability to run a podcast i would say

00:53:26.720 yes yeah i guess so but then at the same time it's like it's also an awfully convenient thing to be

00:53:31.480 able to say i'll prosecute this war and as soon as i'm done prosecuting the war then you can start

00:53:35.980 investigating i don't think and there's an incentive there to keep the thing going right i don't think

00:53:40.160 anyone who is in any way blameable for october 7th is desperate for that investigation to come as

00:53:46.180 quickly as possible sure i totally agree with you of course but let's so come back so back to the

00:53:50.600 netanyahu's resigned in disgrace dave smith is prime minister of israel well look i would i would say

00:53:56.720 that um i think there are again like you know even with uh like what you're talking about with rogan

00:54:02.480 and where i think people will go like well imagine mexico attacked america in this way like what would

00:54:07.360 we do to mexico but i also do think that like there is there's a really fundamental difference

00:54:13.160 between gazans attacking israel and mexico attacking america because a mexico although obviously

00:54:19.860 there's a huge power discrepancy between our two governments they are a government with the

00:54:24.040 military and and some degree of sovereignty and it the it's much more it's it's much more like

00:54:32.160 a um a native american reservation but but a native american reservation where we never gave the native

00:54:40.280 american citizenship and it's not a native american reservation the way american native american

00:54:45.280 reservations are where they can come and go as freely as they please and it's like it's just not

00:54:49.800 you know we never gave the native american citizenship we still hold them on these

00:54:53.940 reservations we've had a blockade around this reservation after and an occupation going back

00:54:58.220 60 years no in that scenario i would not find it justified for the american military to start

00:55:05.060 carpet bombing the reservation no in fact i think you would have a responsibility to make this a police

00:55:09.840 action like you have to arrest these people and before netanyahu in i mean there was a terrorism

00:55:15.740 problem since the creation of the state of israel partially the zionists and partially the arabs um

00:55:21.740 but there was but throughout the entire history of israel it was only netanyahu whoever treated the

00:55:27.200 terrorism problem as like a problem for the regular old military it was always targeted assassinations

00:55:32.820 special operations again gaza is the most surveilled area in the world they can wait these guys out they

00:55:39.560 can touch them they can target them now um again it might put idf soldiers at more risk than sometimes

00:55:45.560 that's an that's a thing that all modern uh uh armies accept that we will increase the risk to our own

00:55:53.680 guys to fight wars in more moral ways than we have in the past but i think that it should have been

00:56:00.120 there was just a way to do it that would have i mean short of like right on october 8th right away

00:56:05.860 where they cut the electricity cut the water cut all that just essentially announcing that we're at

00:56:10.680 war with the civilian population i mean look dude i know listen i know me and you like see that like

00:56:15.400 we don't see eye to eye on this i know we're on different sides of this but just even saying like

00:56:18.840 did you see like a few weeks ago when the ceasefire deal first starts right i'm gonna ask you guys

00:56:23.400 genuinely so hamas at one point or israel accuses hamas let's just say they're right hamas is slow

00:56:28.740 rolling returning the dead remains of some of the uh hostages all the living hostages have been

00:56:35.040 returned but there are remains of dead hot and israel accuses them of slow rolling let's even

00:56:39.980 say they were and so as a response to that they go we're having the aid halving cutting in half the

00:56:45.900 aid that's getting into gaza as a response to hamas slow rolling dead remains not saying that doesn't

00:56:52.340 mean anything but like dead people are a little bit different than alive people that you're gonna cut

00:56:57.100 off the aid to women and children because of like that's well it's war doesn't that like on some human

00:57:03.420 level don't you guys go yeah that's wrong like you shouldn't you shouldn't punish the civilian

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00:58:17.660 code trigger the issue is that the police action thing is really what this is all about right because

00:58:23.780 if you see this as a war i mean historically speaking no country at war is required to provide

00:58:28.260 aid to enemy civilians that has never happened well it's not a matter of being required to provide it

00:58:33.340 it's a matter of blocking the aid that international organizations are trying right but when whenever

00:58:39.040 any country has been at war this really hasn't been a concern of theirs ever and israel is doing way

00:58:43.880 more than any country at war has done on this front but it doesn't matter i don't defend israel

00:58:49.400 i don't say that everything they've done is right i don't think they've done it the way that i would

00:58:54.400 have done it you are really not going to like the way i would have done it and i but what i'm trying

00:59:00.100 to find out from you is you say police action and that's we we had this debate but not face to face

00:59:06.220 where we exchanged videos on this right and we talked about native american reservation and you say

00:59:10.800 police office police action you've got 50 000 jihadi terrorists jihadi as in willing to die for the

00:59:20.020 cause is that fair you shake your head maybe i mean i don't know i think i don't think any of us really

00:59:25.140 know for sure but yeah i think the israeli government was claiming something like that

00:59:28.220 are you disputing the numbers of the jihadism i just don't know i don't know what the number of

00:59:33.580 jihadists i just don't know it's the number you're unsure about yeah okay so it's not the

00:59:38.680 jihadi part it's there are jihadists obviously they are prepared to die yes yes there are so you've got

00:59:44.240 can we say just so that you we do agree like 40 to 50 or i just maybe it may be sure let's say

00:59:50.920 40 to 50 000 people in a highly geographically concentrated area tiny area right tiny tiny area

00:59:59.600 50 000 people with pretty sophisticated weaponry actually uh ieds everywhere booby traps everywhere

01:00:08.300 anti-tank missiles sniper rifles this is a militarized terrorist organization can you really

01:00:15.460 do you really think you can deal with that in a police action well i think you can certainly deal

01:00:20.460 with it with uh targeted assassinations special operations the way israel's dealt with their

01:00:24.680 terrorism problem for their entire existence but the point again about this is that i think

01:00:29.500 that when you've look if you occupy occupying a country you know let's say like after a war you

01:00:36.160 occupy a country for six months or for a couple years or something like that israel's been occupying

01:00:41.300 the west bank and gaza for longer than the soviet union occupied eastern europe it's a 60 year and at

01:00:48.080 a certain point you're like you know like there was this big thing where they just voted to annex the

01:00:51.880 west bank when jd vance was there just to be disrespectful to america even though they're our welfare

01:00:57.020 country they can still disrespect our most let's just think about the most basic of asks from

01:01:02.560 america like could you just not occupy could you just not annex but look the truth is it's already

01:01:07.420 been annexed all of this is israel you know israel's had and yes i just come back to the police

01:01:12.180 there's an obligation at that point that these people are your people whether you acknowledge

01:01:17.080 that or not when you've had control of them for 60 years you're the sovereign in these areas

01:01:22.540 then like yeah i think but how do you police 50 000 armed jihadis how do you how do you deal with

01:01:28.980 that as a police action imagine you had the native americans they were they were pretty badass boys

01:01:34.240 when you you know when you guys first came here imagine you had 50 000 of them in a hot in a in

01:01:39.520 manhattan right and they just went on a slaughtering and raping and rampage right and then you're going

01:01:47.320 let's send in the cops i don't know that there's anyone who thinks that's realistic all right well

01:01:53.160 i mean but tell me how that's realistic i'm open to it well i'm just saying that well look as i just

01:01:57.760 said israel has a long history of targeted assassinations but it's different it's because

01:02:02.200 october 7th is a different level of threat to anything that's ever happened before you kept these

01:02:07.520 people occupied for over 60 years you never gave them citizenship we already baked all of that in yeah

01:02:11.560 i know but i'm just making the point that whether you think it's logistically difficult to do or not

01:02:16.580 the truth is that they just destroyed the entire strip i don't think and and hamas hasn't been

01:02:22.100 eradicated anyway but that's uh that's i agree with but what i'm saying is it's not logistically

01:02:26.900 difficult i just think it's wishful thinking to imagine that a threat so so here's how i see it and

01:02:33.920 you tell me where you think i'm wrong sure october 7th happens if you're the prime minister of israel

01:02:38.860 you shit yourself you go fuck we're being invaded our people are being slaughtered you might also be

01:02:45.640 worried about the blowback on you you were in charge i i hear all the things that you i think

01:02:50.540 you might say and then you go we can't live with this that's what any that's what any president or

01:02:57.240 prime minister of a country that's been invaded in that way would say we cannot have this on our

01:03:01.180 doorstep i don't care about history i don't care who's right who's wrong we can't have this right

01:03:05.080 the people who did this the people who funded this the people who orchestrated this the people who

01:03:09.260 participated this they need to hand themselves in for justice or we're going to kill them all that's

01:03:13.720 what america would do right i think that's a fair claim i don't know i don't know about that but i

01:03:18.920 mean look i mean so so then they go in and they are trying to eliminate hamas they're not trying to

01:03:24.660 go in with special forces and take out sinwar they're not trying to take out this guy or the

01:03:30.180 commander of this they're trying to destroy hamas that's what they're trying to do now if you think

01:03:38.180 that's not their right reaction i understand i think most people would say if this has happened

01:03:44.380 to your country america britain that's what the overwhelming majority of people would demand of

01:03:48.980 their government if the native americans had done this that that would be the nature of the response

01:03:53.940 i don't believe it's credible to say that can be addressed on a policing basis that's a large-scale

01:04:00.800 military operation and there's no other way to do it accomplish destroying hamas this degrading

01:04:06.280 hamas to the point where he just can't come back yeah no i don't think that's been done but okay

01:04:11.100 i mean so look i mean i guess in in your in your view it wouldn't be i wouldn't be able to degrade

01:04:18.440 hamas through police action or special ops or something like that and in my view it's like you're

01:04:23.360 also not able to degrade hamas but my view comes but my view comes with the bonus added of not slaughtering

01:04:28.700 a hundred thousand people but so that's kind of the difference but let me just say can i just to

01:04:32.360 your point because i get what you're saying and i do think there is something they have degraded

01:04:35.300 hamas though dave it's like they've killed a whole lot of them and probably created another

01:04:38.240 generation of hamas that will that they will be fighting for years to come and and we'll see how

01:04:43.060 this i'm getting very interrupted yeah i get excited no it's fine i'm guilty of the same thing um but i

01:04:48.380 will say that like i do think there's this tendency for for people to say like well look if you want to

01:04:53.420 put yourself in the in the um and me and coleman talked about this a bit but like if you want to put

01:04:57.420 yourself in the israeli shoes like i'm fine with that i think then we should also put ourselves in the

01:05:01.600 palestinian shoes and then we should put ourselves in the american shoes well that's or the british

01:05:05.980 shoes for that matter because that's what i really am concerned with so um i would say first of all

01:05:10.640 it's i think it was aaron matey actually who had the line which i really liked a lot where he said

01:05:15.380 in order to buy israel's justify like the justification for this you have to accept the premise that

01:05:20.980 nothing can justify october 7th but that october 7th can justify anything and there is something

01:05:29.360 where you go like look okay i i'm sure israel could look at october 7th and say we find this

01:05:34.420 to be intolerable and we are entitled to a violent response and if some innocent people get killed in

01:05:38.900 that violent response well i'm sorry but this just happened to us and we have a right to do that

01:05:43.080 you could get there from the palestinian perspective too it's dead although there are

01:05:47.680 differences but although the differences are what matters here okay well i don't know i'm not sure they

01:05:52.460 are but go ahead here's the difference the difference with say you mentioned for example the

01:05:57.320 soviet union occupying eastern europe when eastern europe wanted to break away from the soviet union

01:06:02.180 they didn't invade moscow and rape women they didn't take hostages the difference is that armed

01:06:11.040 resistance look man we're men if people came to our place and started putting us in chains we'd rise up

01:06:18.440 we'd pick up a rifle we'd engage in armed resistance but when you deliberately target civilians it's not the

01:06:24.420 same it's not the same as dropping bombs on terrorist houses who deliberately put their families in those

01:06:29.220 houses it's not the same and that's the difference yeah see i just i guess if it wasn't for all of the

01:06:35.040 reports over the last two years then like maybe i would we you know i don't know is it that different

01:06:39.740 than idf soldiers taking target practice at kids as multiple doctors in gaza have reported is it that

01:06:45.640 much different than the uh what was it called the who uh where's daddy uh ai scheme where they were

01:06:51.020 following the terrorists back to their homes to take out their families too i mean like no i don't

01:06:55.960 do you think israel is deliberately killing civilians like by definition yes like it's by what

01:07:00.780 definition well in the sense that like if you if you take in action that you know is going to result

01:07:07.680 in civilians being killed then it's deliberate but it's the rules of war say that that is what you

01:07:13.260 should do war are a construct i mean listen like sure sure we're talking about morality or logic here

01:07:18.260 but it's like look let's talk about logic you're taking look you're you're again like again all the

01:07:23.640 reports i mean which you could go through you know you go read dave de camp's reporting for the last

01:07:27.780 two years and every single day there's been an article about another atrocity uh that was being

01:07:32.000 committed against them now there certainly is a difference between like the primitive nature of

01:07:38.980 of hamas's attack and the barbaric nature of hamas's attack but at the same time the end result of it

01:07:46.700 is innocent people being slaughtered i know it is and that is so and if you but there is a difference

01:07:52.000 between nazi germany attacking poland and the western allies responding would you agree there is a

01:08:03.920 difference they both result in people being killed but there is a difference because it's about the

01:08:10.860 conduct and who initiates that particular phase of it right is that fair yeah but i think that so

01:08:16.600 this is the difference with october the 7th this is why it's a different category of violence in my

01:08:22.540 opinion because you've got a situation where a band of terrorists deliberately invade another place

01:08:29.580 and they don't attack i mean sure they attack some idea they kill the bunch of idea they attack some idea

01:08:34.820 facilities but really it's about taking israelis hostage raping them killing women killing children

01:08:41.400 dragging them off to the dungeons and holding them there for power that's not the same as what

01:08:46.280 the idf is doing would you accept that no i don't really think that's right i mean again i think

01:08:49.780 there's if it makes sense i just like to use like an example it's almost like you know you could say

01:08:53.860 like uh you know like eastern european countries as you know well right where there's a lot of

01:08:57.580 corruption and there'll be like low level primitive corruption type stuff like you could if you're in um

01:09:02.920 i don't know if you there's countries in your if you're in romania it's kind of like a known thing

01:09:07.740 which is true i think in mexico too like if you get pulled over by the cops you could slip them some

01:09:11.700 money and get out of it now that's very low level corruption right in the united states of america

01:09:16.480 good luck doing that you know if you if you get pulled over for a dui and you try to slip a cop a

01:09:21.680 couple hundred bucks i can i mean maybe one time it'll work i can assure you that is not a good idea

01:09:26.180 and you're just going to get another charge we don't have low level primitive corruption like that

01:09:30.640 what we have is the prison guards union lobbies for mandatory minimums for marijuana we have

01:09:37.420 corruption on a much more sophisticated but in a sense it is still corruption right so in the sense

01:09:42.160 that yes israel it's very when it's when you're having a fighter pilot bomb a building and you say

01:09:48.340 it's collateral damage i understand where that is not it doesn't get as visceral reaction it's not as

01:09:54.120 as barbaric and primitive as like hamas breaking into israel and just kind of killing everything that

01:09:59.160 moves and then dragging as many people back to holding captivity but again israel just the in this uh

01:10:05.320 when they did this swap just a couple weeks ago after the ceasefire israel released 1700 gazans

01:10:11.260 that they've been holding without charges of anything they've been doing this by the way since

01:10:15.100 well before this latest conflict in gaza but you can't compare those two things either well you can't

01:10:20.280 hold on hold on you can't compare that you can compare them well you can't maybe you can't equate

01:10:24.360 them you certainly can compare okay fine you can't equate them which is what i'm really saying you can't

01:10:28.460 compare people many of whom are violent terrorists and many maybe aren't and many aren't and people

01:10:35.340 who've been taking hostage by a war a war party of hamas crossing into israel while they butcher and

01:10:42.320 rape well it's not the same thing again i'm not saying it's the same thing well you kind of are no i'm

01:10:47.060 not i'm not i'm saying that like they are awfully similar you know like if if i don't think like if you

01:10:52.880 as you said we're men and we're men with families and stuff like that i think that like yes if if

01:10:58.220 hamas militant broke into your house and grabbed your kid and brought him back over there i don't

01:11:04.840 know that that actually is that much different than someone in an idf uniform breaking into your house

01:11:08.680 grabbing your kid and going to hold them by the way there's been reports going back decades and

01:11:13.080 decades of torture in these israeli detentions they hold palestinians from the west bank and gaza in fact

01:11:17.940 i think it was 1999 when they outlawed finally the what they called moderate interrogation practices

01:11:25.160 moderate interrogation including tying them up and binding them and blasting loud things that we

01:11:30.700 would consider torture so like yes it's much more systematized it's much more sophisticated it's not

01:11:37.080 as primitive but in the same way that i went like the prison guard union at lobbying for mandatory

01:11:42.200 minimums really is that it is as much corruption as just paying off a cop when you're drunk behind the

01:11:47.900 wheel it's just at a much larger scale and the point is that those the people right like the the

01:11:54.020 woman who you hear wailing as she hears her one-year-old screaming for her from underneath a

01:12:00.540 building of rubble who's literally being tortured to death uh you know just his bones crushing and

01:12:05.620 screaming for his mother she's feeling the same thing that those is like she's as much of a human

01:12:10.540 being she's feeling the exact same thing that those israeli parents felt when their kids got

01:12:14.580 slaughtered at that festival the same thing me and you would be feeling if it was our kids in that

01:12:18.600 situation and so the point is that look obviously i'm not equating it i'm not saying they're the same

01:12:24.740 things because look i'd be much more comfortable being next door neighbors with a a drone operator

01:12:31.620 you know what i mean who is drone bombing wedding weddings in yemen or something like that

01:12:35.780 then i would being next door neighbors with a hamas terrorist you know what i mean because there is a

01:12:40.480 difference in the way more sophisticated civilized men can compartmentalize things like that in their

01:12:45.440 life but i do think that like if you're talking about this conflict and you're going put yourself

01:12:49.440 in their perspective put yourself in their perspective the end result is that they're going

01:12:53.520 through that at a much larger scale than the israelis ever of course but but that's what happens when

01:12:58.740 you start a war with a much bigger force right it's very debatable who started what here

01:13:03.680 well everyone claims they're reacting to the other one i know but october 7th is a

01:13:08.660 sugenaris thing it's a one-of-a-kind thing right you shouldn't have to rearrange your life to deal

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01:14:39.460 online but october 7th is a sui generis thing it's a one-of-a-kind thing right and the reason this

01:14:49.980 really matters is you know i think you paint a very important picture i don't think enough people

01:14:55.220 particularly on the pro-israel side get the scale of the suffering in gaza right but if i were that

01:15:02.180 father i would be going why are we here how has this happened and what i'd be saying is why did you have

01:15:08.260 to go and do october 7th why did you make me put an a a weapon cash in my house why is hamas doing this

01:15:16.020 to me we were living in relative peace the israelis had left i'm not saying it was great i'm not saying

01:15:21.260 i'm not saying it was the greatest place to live in the world right but we were living in relative

01:15:25.480 peace the israelis had left i could go and work across the border blah blah blah blah blah and now

01:15:30.500 i've got idf bombs on my head because you went and raped people oh well i mean look i i don't disagree

01:15:35.400 with that right you're saying the people of gaza should be upset with hamas for for october 7th

01:15:39.820 absolutely and in fact there were actually protests against hamas now which also is a very different

01:15:44.600 thing than like protesting in israel you know what i mean that takes real balls to do absolutely and

01:15:49.060 so i yeah absolutely but i also would probably think the same thing on the israeli side that you

01:15:53.660 after october 7th how would you not sit there and go benjamin netanyahu the longest serving prime

01:15:59.220 minister in israeli history his whole thing was to deny the palestinians a state by propping up hamas

01:16:04.820 so that we would never have to how would you not have that same reaction if you're an israeli well

01:16:08.580 you did this to us bb i think a lot of israelis do feel that way and yeah yeah they should they

01:16:13.740 both should every listen everyone should hate the government they live on there that is my

01:16:17.900 central point we could probably agree on that and i think a lot of israel israelis do feel that way

01:16:22.040 and i said i'm pretty certain that when the war is over i don't think benjamin netanyahu is likely

01:16:26.580 to be re-elected but the reason i bring you can agree on that yeah the reason i bring this up though

01:16:30.820 davis and i think this is really important to for us to clarify is the scale of the suffering

01:16:36.860 is something not enough people as i say on the pro-israel side you give two credence to but i also

01:16:41.900 think that a lot of people who are anti-israel they use the scale of the suffering to confuse

01:16:47.900 the issue of who bears ultimate responsibility for that suffering and that is really the area

01:16:53.020 of disagreement right because we can all agree that what's happened i look man i'm a father when i see

01:16:59.620 what's happening in gaza it makes me sick yeah and it should and it should make everyone sick

01:17:04.300 but the reason we disagree is that i believe the people who are responsible for that are the people

01:17:10.420 who did october the 7th and the and and i vote and i'm on the record of saying this if hamas had

01:17:16.040 attacked idf installations i i was totally undecided about israel and gaza until this war broke out i

01:17:24.040 didn't you know we had melanie phillips on the show in like 2019 and i was like oh melanie you tell this

01:17:28.540 great story about the creation of the state of israel i think it's a little market like yeah i was

01:17:32.240 undecided right when october the 7th happened i was like the people who are responsible for what comes

01:17:37.460 after this is the people who did this because any leader of any country would react in something like

01:17:44.960 this way or probably worse yeah i mean i i guess i just think that the same exact logic could be

01:17:52.660 applied in the reverse and to say listen 60 years of brutal occupation man whatever comes after this

01:17:58.720 you're responsible for that now i don't agree with that i don't agree but that isn't true though

01:18:02.720 well i well it's as true as what you said no it's not because well i'm not saying see take another

01:18:09.480 example russia ukraine right like you know i'm i have ukrainian family i have russian family too and

01:18:13.900 i it's a tragic conflict they're engaged in a brutal war and it's a much more parity war therefore it's

01:18:19.920 much more brutal actually right there's way more people men on both sides being killed if ukrainians

01:18:25.540 who i support went on a rampage in western parts of russia and started raping women and taking

01:18:32.160 children hostage i would be like there is no fucking way this is justified there is no oppression

01:18:38.440 killing butcher murdering in ukraine that russian soldiers have done that justifies this this is an

01:18:45.720 outrage that is completely unacceptable it's a different type of thing to the conflict you've

01:18:50.260 been engaging in and if you do this and the russians then go ham you cause this is how i feel about

01:18:58.340 it right yeah and that's the difference yeah i guess i just don't so certainly what i would agree

01:19:02.920 with is that right like no matter what and i think this almost just comes down to like individualism

01:19:07.440 versus collectivism like you you don't have a right to just kill innocent people no matter how much you've

01:19:13.260 been suffering like it doesn't matter even if the israeli government what happened well well i'm saying

01:19:17.900 that the say like in the example of hamas or in the example you just used with ukraine it doesn't

01:19:22.680 matter like it doesn't matter how brutal the israeli government's been to you you still can't just go

01:19:26.540 kill teenagers at a festival like that's not it's not just a justified response so i completely agree

01:19:31.980 with you on that but then also as i said before cutting off aid to the civilian population who's

01:19:38.520 war torn after two years how much aid is russia providing to ukraine hold on let me just

01:19:42.940 finish my point here cutting off that aid is also not a legitimate response to like hamas slow rolling

01:19:48.560 the the dead remains of civilians okay so but but is like this is what i'm saying to you russia's not

01:19:54.720 providing any aid to you yeah but also doesn't have a blockade around uh ukraine as much as it

01:19:59.140 can it does they deliberately ukraine has been getting there's been no shortage of aid that's

01:20:03.760 been getting because we're trying to help but the russians have done everything possible to cut off

01:20:08.600 rail tracks and the supplies and everything they're bombing logistical infrastructure in rural

01:20:12.940 i 100 think that if russia russia's not providing any aid and no one's saying oh why aren't they

01:20:18.480 providing aid because nobody's defending what russia's doing nobody here is saying like well

01:20:23.060 okay maybe i know but have you been to austin okay sure enough to washington dc okay good well look

01:20:30.600 even even that washington dc has been funding ukraine to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars over

01:20:38.900 the last few years but that's not my point my point is no one is criticizing russia for not providing

01:20:43.460 aid to ukraine i think no one is criticizing russia i think people have uh they're criticizing russia for

01:20:49.400 invading yes but they're not criticizing for not providing aid no one says they have a duty to feed

01:20:53.700 ukrainian civilians well it's also because the ukrainian civilians aren't food insecure they don't

01:20:58.120 need i mean it's like look like you said there's more parity in that conflict it's been much more

01:21:02.360 military deaths on military deaths and so it's just not the same dynamic but yes look if russia had

01:21:07.640 ukraine under a full blockade and then they invaded ukraine and they weren't letting food in from the

01:21:12.960 international community absolutely you would say you have an obligation to allow this aid but they

01:21:18.440 wouldn't but they sure okay fine and no other country would either well i don't know about that

01:21:22.860 when the u.s when the u.s was fighting in iraq they cut off uh electricity and water to the cities that

01:21:28.640 they were sieging it's what everyone does yes to certain say it is okay but yeah but it's how you

01:21:33.740 fight a war yeah but also okay you wouldn't that's why war is terrible okay but also yeah i agree with

01:21:39.720 that um but so also you didn't have george w bush going to the army and calling them amalek you also

01:21:46.980 didn't have like people in the highest levels of the u.s government floating out plans of ethnically

01:21:52.580 cleansing all of iraq and then taking it over for ourselves and there's just many different things in

01:21:57.340 this conflict um but yes we're all in agreement that the war in iraq was sure terrible so that's not

01:22:02.120 really that's not really the moral standard i've been hugging the mic for like an hour sorry francis

01:22:06.520 no it's all good so um you know the great thing about our conversation is i think it shows new

01:22:12.440 media at its very best in that we're having a conversation it's respectful no one's trying to

01:22:16.720 misrepresent you know things get a little bit passionate at times yeah as they would just like

01:22:20.960 yeah exactly not the way i do it but all in all i think this displays the very best in new media

01:22:29.220 people on different sides good faith having a disagreement finding common ground in certain

01:22:34.300 instances disagreeing on others but ultimately with the moment we walk away we're going to be like

01:22:39.100 actually you know what that was brilliant yeah we enjoyed it i think everybody watches or listen to

01:22:43.380 it is going to have a blast the issue comes with new media is that there is real issues or i have real

01:22:50.280 issues and let's explore what you think in particular about this kind of this new medium where you have

01:22:56.260 people interviewing certain people who have ideas that i personally think are dangerous you know

01:23:03.020 holocaust and on whatever else and look you can bring whoever you want on your show for instance we've

01:23:08.200 invited nick fuentes on the show he hasn't responded we'd love to have nick on to have a full robust

01:23:14.060 conversation and actually challenge some of his views and some of the things he says which i personally

01:23:18.820 find despicable and highly dangerous where do you sit on that whole conversation and that whole debate

01:23:24.380 uh well i certainly agree with what the the first part of that you know and that i think there's also

01:23:29.820 something where i just i just think like with the three of us i think that's kind of just our

01:23:33.080 personality anyway it's like we're interested in these ideas we want to talk about them we want to

01:23:37.420 debate them at some point but i i'm just like yeah we'd go grab a beer after this and stuff and and part of

01:23:42.520 that is just um well it's just kind of what else are we going to do i mean like what's the alternative

01:23:48.800 to that you know what i mean like and and anytime you're talking about a political issue almost any

01:23:53.720 time when you're talking about an important one it is a matter of life and death or or close to that

01:23:58.660 i mean you know if you're if you're having a conversation with bernie sanders about health care

01:24:02.560 you know from my perspective bernie sanders health care proposals is going to lead to like

01:24:07.180 serious suffering and deaths and all but man i mean what are we going to do just all go to war

01:24:13.420 with each other always and all hate anyone particularly also like i'm a jewish guy who's

01:24:17.740 very critical of israel so like you know i got tons of family who have the exact opposite what am i

01:24:22.180 going to hate my family now i got to hate my you know democratic cousin or something like that like

01:24:27.600 it's just it just seems crazy and so i think like the only path forward is for us to to have these

01:24:33.120 conversations and you know like so to your point of like are there dangerous ideas i mean i think

01:24:38.720 there's dangerous ideas all around us and i think i think socialism is a dangerous idea i think fascism

01:24:43.740 is a dangerous idea i think you know wars of choice are dangerous idea but right we just got to be able

01:24:49.140 to talk about these things and i think that that's one of the best things about the new media

01:24:52.780 then with with fuentes specifically like in this case and i've always been against all types of

01:24:59.240 cancel culture even when it's just like you know even if the even if the government wasn't involved

01:25:04.400 the way they were with the big tech companies i'd still be against big tech companies kicking people

01:25:08.680 off because like that just isn't good it's not the right path but with fuentes specifically in this

01:25:14.600 case i think as you guys know part of the reason why you're saying you wanted him to come on the show

01:25:17.940 he's just gotten so huge that it's almost we're at a point where like we need to have this conversation

01:25:23.580 it makes absolutely no sense anymore for like you know hearing um hearing mark levin call to cancel

01:25:31.540 tucker carlson and candace owens and nick fuentes and kick him off social media kick him out of these

01:25:36.980 things deep platform it just kind of reminds me of like a couple years ago when brian stelter was

01:25:41.960 calling to cancel joe rogan and you're just like who are you who do you think you are in the rankings of

01:25:48.940 this thing like and i just i don't mean i'm not i'm not saying like popularity makes you right

01:25:54.760 but popularity does make you relevant it does make you a relevant part of the discussion and i think um

01:26:00.640 i think that the best thing that could happen with with fuentes the the rise of nick fuentes is that he

01:26:08.820 does a bunch more of these shows and i think there should there should be more debates more

01:26:13.980 conversations and but i would also say i think with the same attitude that we have right now we're just

01:26:18.640 like hey let's talk about what we disagree with but do it in a in a respect of like let's talk about

01:26:23.300 this like civilized men look i'm fully in agreement with you dave where can't like cancelling people

01:26:29.340 kicking people off platforms it doesn't work it drives ideas underground it's only going to go to

01:26:34.340 a platform where these ideas aren't going to be challenged it's going to give them a certain amount

01:26:40.060 of you know dangerousness sexiness that they simply don't deserve my issue comes with people when

01:26:46.360 they interview the nick fuentes of the world and they do not give an appropriate pushback on ideas

01:26:52.440 that's where i think it gets dangerous because then you just have people saying what the saying

01:26:58.200 their horrific ideas and you go where's the pushback where's the challenge because if you don't push

01:27:03.100 back on people's ideas in my opinion you're effectively endorsing them um i don't agree with that i just don't

01:27:09.860 i don't agree that if you don't push back on someone's ideas you're endorsing it i mean i was talking about

01:27:13.940 this the other day on some show um but i just the example that just came to my mind was this guy uh

01:27:19.040 ben burgess who i like he's a nice guy um he's a democratic socialist and he wrote this book uh and

01:27:25.340 i believe the title of the book was it was called canceling comedians while the world burns and this

01:27:30.420 was back like a few years ago and it was uh like i don't know 2018 2019 or maybe it was around that time

01:27:35.760 but he was talking about how like you know you got all these left-wing activists and they're canceling

01:27:39.580 louis ck or they're going after this guy meanwhile we still don't have universal health care universal

01:27:44.200 housing or universal child care i just thought that was a really interesting book and an interesting

01:27:49.180 take that i kind of agreed with and so i interviewed him we just talked about the book and kind of talked

01:27:53.100 about that now i didn't i never pushed back or argued with him but i don't think you can deduce

01:27:57.580 from that that like therefore i'm endorsing democratic socialism his ideas are not that extreme

01:28:01.920 dave yeah but if you have a holocaust denier who says hitler was very cool on your show and you

01:28:06.880 don't push back that's a different well so i guess i guess my point would be that i'm not so sure i

01:28:12.640 agree with the idea that like being pro-socialist should be viewed as that far different from being

01:28:18.720 pro-nazi or something like that like these are the great evil ideologies of the 20th century and

01:28:24.340 they're both responsible for a lot of horror and deaths and all of that it's been very conventional

01:28:28.580 thinking for a long time that communism is kind of misguided but fascism is kind of evil and i don't i

01:28:34.660 don't think any of us actually agree with you don't you don't need to persuade me that but your

01:28:37.880 example isn't quite fair for example we had uh this will go out before the episode i'm about to

01:28:42.660 mention but we interviewed hassan piker right he basically says in the episode he doesn't say in

01:28:47.420 terms but he's like i've i sort of say well people call you a communist isn't that and he's like yeah

01:28:52.460 i've got no problem like when we interviewed him we pushed back on stuff he said because

01:28:56.140 communism is a horrific ideology and we talked about our family's experiences and whatever

01:29:00.740 so my point is comparing him to a kind of soft socialist who says you know we shouldn't cancel

01:29:05.660 comedians we should focus on health care no but he's not a soft socialist i mean he's a hardcore

01:29:09.460 like he's i mean i would consider him a communist he literally argues that private businesses should

01:29:14.360 be abolished and that it should all be you know every business should be run democratically but does

01:29:19.920 he admire stalin does he said what we need is stalin policies in america so that's the difference

01:29:24.860 okay fair enough you the trigonometry audience understand how vital free speech is that's why

01:29:31.200 we're proud to reintroduce you to our long-standing partners give send go we caught up with their

01:29:37.400 founders at jordan peterson's alliance for responsible citizenship conference this year

01:29:42.140 and it was clear they are not just running a crowdfunding site they're defending a principle

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01:30:16.000 whether it's for free speech helping a friend in need or disaster relief visit give send go

01:30:21.380 dot com and use the code trigger for a special 2.5 processing rate that's give send go dot com the

01:30:29.740 platform that doesn't just talk about free speech it protects it but okay so again i'm not equating the

01:30:37.920 things i'm saying the logic of saying that when you don't push back you are there for endorsing i think

01:30:43.540 is faulty logic so that that's but it depends on the extreme is my no but i'm saying that logic still

01:30:48.680 remains no matter how extreme the person is if you if you have a conversation with somebody who has

01:30:52.960 the worst views in the world and you just talked about cars and you agreed on that it doesn't

01:30:58.740 therefore logically follow that you agree with the other stuff yes but what if you had someone on your

01:31:03.220 show who says we should kill black people or you know black people are genetically inferior and

01:31:09.380 therefore we should structure society in such a way that you know they get mistreated or or whatever or

01:31:15.440 you know someone who who says you know who encourages us followers to say i will kill rape

01:31:21.280 and die in my name as nick does is this are we talking fuentes yeah yeah yeah i missed i missed that

01:31:26.940 one oh you didn't see that one um so and then you have that person on and you don't talk about any of

01:31:33.440 this right well that's kind of a problem isn't it well i mean the thing about okay there's a couple

01:31:38.020 things here first of all it's it's a unique situation like the tucker having nick fuentes on and i

01:31:44.300 also had nick on a couple weeks before which was a big deal until tucker had him on and now no one

01:31:48.600 cares about that anymore tucker eclipsed me again um but like look there's just there's there's it's

01:31:55.460 a situational and there's certain dynamics that are going on here now so like i i do think there's this

01:32:00.380 weird there's to me a little bit of a disconnect between what that interview actually was and the

01:32:06.280 way that a lot of people are perceiving it where they're saying that like okay yes it's true

01:32:10.640 that tucker or myself for that matter didn't go hey we've got you here i think you're a terrible

01:32:15.600 person and here are all the awful things that you've said and i want to fight with you for three

01:32:20.060 hours about all these awful things you've said here but i also think that nick fuentes is a unique

01:32:25.200 thing you know he came up in the dark like his whole brand is that he's saying the most

01:32:31.280 you know toxic things and he's intentionally obviously i mean if you ever watch the kid

01:32:36.020 he's doing like a he's doing a right wing shock jock thing like there's a lot of humor involved

01:32:42.600 in it there's a lot of trolling involved in it and there's a lot of kind of like getting off on

01:32:46.380 i'm saying the wildest edgiest thing and in that environment no i actually don't think it's good

01:32:51.940 well let me just finish this okay sure in that environment i don't think the right move is to like

01:32:55.740 go like i'm appalled by what you said to me at least it seemed more like the right move was to go

01:33:00.720 like all right hey let's talk about this like look do we actually believe this you know and and it what

01:33:06.640 was interesting to me is when he talked to me at least i know he he did condemn racial hatred he was

01:33:11.360 like yes we shouldn't hate people just because of the race that they are i i brought up the holocaust

01:33:15.980 and i was like you seem to be implying pretty heavily here that you don't think this happened so

01:33:19.560 let's argue about this because i'm pretty darn sure it happened and he really just kind of conceded

01:33:24.160 he was like he was like yeah i think it might be exaggerated i was like i don't really think it is

01:33:27.800 because like look at these numbers and look at this he kind of conceded that on tucker's show

01:33:31.780 tucker literally said to him that it is listen he goes we are christians and it is against my religion

01:33:38.380 to hate a group of people based on being in that group and again he did kind of seem to concede that

01:33:43.380 now i don't know does this mean that nick is moderating his views does it mean that he's trying

01:33:49.720 to pull the wool over everybody's eyes and he still believes all of that stuff is he maybe a 26 year

01:33:53.940 old kid who kind of doesn't himself know whether he you know he made a name for himself as being the

01:33:59.400 edgiest most shocking guy now he's become ultra huge now charlie kurt gets murdered in front of

01:34:04.280 all of us and i don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if he was moderating his views

01:34:08.440 and wanted to get a little bit better and so while i agree with you in this i think there should be

01:34:13.120 more debates i think ben shapiro should debate nick fuentes honestly i think like there's i think there

01:34:17.160 should be big debates that happen um but i didn't think also in the tucker thing and with me too

01:34:22.400 in the context of it they had been feuding i mean nick had been attacking me a little while ago

01:34:29.740 and then with tucker and him i mean they were like in a white hot feud where tucker also took a swipe at

01:34:35.600 him and kind of took a swing and missed by calling him a fed without really being able to back that up

01:34:41.180 or whatever which is in this business like almost like the worst thing you could call someone and so

01:34:46.640 there was i don't know it was like a standoff in a weird way and i don't know i don't i don't think

01:34:51.140 that's bad i'm still i still err on the side of you we're not saying it's bad we're not saying it's

01:34:54.660 bad to come back so i guess when you were saying like attacking someone and going i'm outraged i'm

01:35:00.180 disgusted i agree i think that's all performative nonsense yeah and we've had it we've been accused

01:35:05.440 of you know going soft on people and not showing appropriate levels of outrage when we interview a

01:35:11.360 mainstream politician like nigel farage i find it childish i'm going to be honest with you and

01:35:15.780 performative but what i do think it's a responsibility of anyone sitting in the chair is

01:35:21.340 if this person is saying outrageous things is for you to get to the bottom of it does he genuinely

01:35:27.780 believe it is he being like a kind of comedic edgelord is he saying it purely in a cynical way

01:35:34.240 just to get money clicks and attention is it a combination of all three or is he just a kid who's

01:35:40.340 just somehow found himself after you know starting off in his mom's basement to use a hack concept

01:35:46.840 of you know the internet and all of a sudden he's got this kind of huge global audience

01:35:51.340 what is it that is that is the responsibility of the interviewer and also as well when nick says the

01:35:58.360 words jews are not assimilable in society and tucker just lets that go we've got to be honest

01:36:06.340 i love stalin and lets that go you know well he said we'll come back to that but he did yeah yeah

01:36:11.620 but also but okay but also like that happens sometimes as you guys know in interviews like

01:36:16.980 that would never happen with us okay fine but the things happen where you're like oh i wanted to get

01:36:21.600 to this point i wanted to debate this too i guarantee in this interview right now there's views i have

01:36:25.820 that you guys both think are wrong that we don't get to on this show yeah look i don't agree with you

01:36:30.600 the broccoli is brilliant if that's what you believe but if you said i love stalin we might

01:36:36.880 come back to it fair enough especially if you are the voice of a conservative america uh look and

01:36:43.940 and someone comes on your show and says they love the greatest mass murderer in the ideology of

01:36:49.240 your opposition communism in history yeah yeah true i'm saying people are always leaving the goat

01:36:57.360 out of a conversation yeah it's not it's not fair i i i have some dispute about you know how much of

01:37:02.900 that was intentional and how much of that was not no then there's a whole other argument of does that

01:37:07.240 even really matter at a certain point you know i i think i think your correction is true the second

01:37:11.260 greatest you know i'm russian so i'm a bit biased to what it's fair enough trying to build up the

01:37:15.120 numbers right that those jokes could go out of context that's a different category and if someone

01:37:23.380 if i was the voice of conservative america and someone praised hitler and then came on my show

01:37:29.280 and also praised stalin i think i might sort of i might be like what sure and isn't it reasonable

01:37:35.280 to say that like okay i understand there's going to be people who praise hitler and people who praise

01:37:40.520 stalin but you can't praise both man like you got to be good you got to be good on the other one

01:37:45.440 i'm just saying if someone loves adolf hitler the one thing i can count on is that they're good on

01:37:49.600 right joseph stalin right and vice versa so anyway there's that so that gets into the question but i

01:37:53.860 think like look this is how i feel kind of more broadly about the thing with nick fuentes himself

01:37:59.500 right and i don't know him super well but you know like i we hung out a little bit after we did the

01:38:04.420 show um and i don't look i feel like and i think actually i think i've seen you yourself talk about

01:38:11.980 this and maybe even i can't remember the exact thing you said but you might have even said that it

01:38:15.960 was the most dangerous part of wokeism on the left and i certainly know i've been on record

01:38:20.860 predicting as jordan peterson and all these people have said for so many years like our whole thing to

01:38:25.740 the woke left was you'd go now i don't know if i would quite put it as the worst part of it but

01:38:29.660 you'd be like you be careful you have no idea what you're stirring up here and essentially now there's

01:38:36.120 many things going on that's one of the dynamics but that's a big part of it right so now we see

01:38:41.120 that emerging we see that reaction um emerging i think you share on white men long enough they're

01:38:46.340 gonna go well okay we're white and we're men and fuck you yeah that's right and and right and it's

01:38:52.180 a natural response that i think young people in general would have um so my thing is that there's

01:38:58.000 a whole young audience of people who listen to this guy and i don't wish to berate them with

01:39:03.080 like i want to open up the conversation and allow them to see that like there there is legitimacy to

01:39:09.340 their grievances but there is also a very dark path that they can go down with those those

01:39:13.620 grievances right so like that's a big part of it um and then the other thing is like i i do think

01:39:20.780 we kind of you know like i said this when i was interviewing nick where you know which i know guys

01:39:26.460 our age we've all had this thought before where we're like thank god there wasn't all this stuff

01:39:30.120 around when i was a kid because my god and i remember one of the examples that i really thought

01:39:35.280 and i'm not i wasn't like the toughest kid but we were like a little group of hooligans we probably

01:39:38.680 thought we were tougher than we actually were but i remember when the uh you remember when uh

01:39:42.620 uh salmon uh nicholas salmon i believe was his name the catholic coming uh the catholic kid

01:39:48.100 salmon salmon yeah who was like just smiling at the native america and then when the full video

01:39:52.340 came out you were like i mean he actually could not have handled it better right you would be so

01:39:55.800 proud of your kid if your kid was in that situation and handled that way but i remember thinking

01:39:59.880 like what would me and my group of friends have said when the black israelites came over and they

01:40:05.580 started going to these kids and they go you're a bunch of rapists and colonizers and you ruin this

01:40:10.220 and yeah i mean me and my friends dude when i was 19 or whatever we would have been like that's right

01:40:15.080 bitch that's why you got raped i mean we would have said the most hard just because that's how we were

01:40:18.940 as little kids we're and so anyway i guess my point is just now we have young people who have

01:40:23.320 essentially grown up online and i don't it's like i would like there to be room for someone even who

01:40:30.080 has had the worst takes ever to like not be buried by what they said at 22 and then one quick point

01:40:36.080 i'll make this real quick i also think that like you know as i watched this uh um this this whatever

01:40:43.780 the event that all the uh um mark levin and lindsey graham and all these guys but it was like the jewish

01:40:49.060 republican uh thing through an event but i listen to like mark levin and it seems to me like he's doing

01:40:54.840 nick fuentes too it's almost the same thing it's like mark levin is like discussing ideas he's going

01:40:59.720 listen you little cockroach you think you're gonna come through me i'll squash you like a bug you

01:41:04.400 nazi scum and you're like you're basically doing the same thing dude like you're just doing it from

01:41:08.640 a different angle all types of calls for flattening gaza it's like oh it's like i don't know man there's

01:41:15.000 i don't like that stuff on any side but it does seem to be that like but i think this is the point

01:41:20.980 though davis i think if you had mark levin on your show you'd have a very different style of

01:41:26.060 conversation with him yeah as you did with nick and agreed right and this is the same thing and by

01:41:32.320 the way i think it's very important to say we are not saying that if you have someone on your show

01:41:36.540 you've got to berate them we haven't berated you we haven't berated basem yusuf we haven't berated

01:41:42.040 norman finkelstein we haven't berated uh we didn't berate hassan paika we don't berate people with whom

01:41:47.520 we disagree but what's interesting about this and i'm not calling for anyone to do that and tucker and you

01:41:53.080 and anyone else can have anyone they want on their show and should right if they choose to but the

01:41:58.080 difference is when tucker has ted cruz on he goes hard in the paint ted cruz is a state senator in

01:42:06.080 this country which is one of the reasons that you go hard at him right uh but on the other hand this is

01:42:11.880 a guy who's you know he is a serious guy on the other hand he has nick fuentes on who says i love

01:42:19.000 stalin and he doesn't push back on him at all and this is where people see the discrepancy

01:42:25.900 yeah i just think this is a very weak comparison i mean really yeah to have a sitting u.s senator on

01:42:31.680 your show who's calling for regime change a regime change warrant around which is what the whole fight

01:42:37.080 was over that is just a very different thing than talking to a 26 year old streamer but you can't have

01:42:43.920 both dave you can't say he's just a 26 year old streamer while saying he's got a massive audience

01:42:48.360 well because he is he's both of those things he's a 26 year old stature in the comparison

01:42:54.420 no i'm just describing what he is that is different than a sitting u.s senator calling for a regime

01:42:58.980 change war he like us is someone who influences a lot of people sure with that influence comes a level

01:43:04.620 of scrutiny that's appropriate right he's not he's not someone who's inconsequential and he's

01:43:10.160 someone who's saying things like i love hitler i love stalin okay but that is different than a

01:43:14.560 sitting senator who's advocating for a war it's just different also i will say as you know with

01:43:19.700 these things right and like tucker kind of said this when he was on my show uh recently but like

01:43:25.400 with all of these like this conversation right now right where we're disagreeing about stuff but

01:43:29.060 we're doing it in a in a civil tone but all of us have the option to shift that gear yeah like i

01:43:33.940 could make this a confrontational interview or you could make this a car you could make like we

01:43:38.340 there's there's a dance to that and if you actually go watch the the ted cruz thing it kind

01:43:43.100 of starts pretty civil and i think cruz was the one who kind of like escalated it to being like

01:43:48.320 more confrontational but fuentes could have done that but he didn't you know and or tucker could

01:43:53.820 have done that with nick and he didn't so but again i just think that like all these things are

01:43:57.880 situationals it's it's different you know obviously there is i guess and maybe this is part of my own

01:44:02.640 bias but yes if you're somebody say like mark levin who has been um one of the biggest right wing

01:44:09.340 you know talk show hosts for my entire life um probably less relevant now than then but there

01:44:15.460 was a time when he was like in the big three probably it was probably like limbaugh hannity and

01:44:19.420 i think he was pretty close to them um who's been advocated for like several wars that have been

01:44:25.160 absolutely catastrophic who's now advocating for more yeah i have a different tone with that than i do

01:44:31.720 with something that i perceive to be more um edge lord streaming uh so i you know i say you don't

01:44:40.200 think you don't think nick likes hitler or you don't think you like you know honestly i don't know

01:44:46.120 i just don't know did you ask him yeah i you know i think yeah i mean i i won't i'm not going to

01:44:52.020 publicly say what we said privately but like i've you know i'm actually not sure he likes me too much

01:44:57.240 to be honest but uh but um you are jewish yeah well i don't think that's his issue i don't i don't

01:45:03.780 i i got the impression that he was feeling the weight of the moment that feeling the weight of

01:45:11.000 the moment of charlie kirk uh getting killed and i thought his i actually thought his stream after

01:45:16.660 that which i publicly gave him credit for the initial one the initial one after that i was like i i did

01:45:21.080 just appreciate anyone who had that tone and particularly this guy as the biggest leader of the

01:45:25.720 biggest farthest to the right you know constituency like that's good to be calling for de-escalation

01:45:31.220 and christianity like i thought that was really good um i got the impression that and i don't again

01:45:38.380 i don't want to say what he views but i got the impression that he was a person who was thinking

01:45:42.280 about the weight of the moment that he was in thinking about all of that and also having been

01:45:47.440 kind of having painted himself and been painted by others into this corner and i kind of felt like

01:45:54.320 let's let let's like leave a door open and maybe he'll move a little bit to being not as bad that

01:45:59.980 being said i don't know that that's going to happen you know i i think it's quite possible that that won't

01:46:04.880 be the case but do you think he's a nazi i i don't know you know i don't know what that means exactly is

01:46:12.680 he a nazi he's said favorable things about the nazis and he seems to believe in some type of like

01:46:17.860 catholic theocracy or something like that i don't i don't know i don't think um i think that to me

01:46:24.580 it's like the nazi thing is it's a it's it's devil worshiping of today you know what i mean it's like

01:46:31.320 that it's the most outrageous thing that you can say it's the biggest taboo and so i think there's

01:46:37.040 something about like i don't know you know in the same way that like when you'd see almost like a

01:46:41.900 you know a goth kid who's like dad isn't around and who hates but is he really a goth or it's like

01:46:47.760 i don't know he's rebelling in that moment sure well he's rebelling and i think i think nick has

01:46:52.160 been on record set like i think there's there's there's a clear decision to go if this is the

01:46:58.660 thing that's off limits if this is the button i'm not allowed to push i will be pushing that as hard

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01:47:38.300 well look i think you made a very good point about the whole redemption aspect the fact that if you

01:47:42.420 remove redemption from people it doesn't matter who they are they will think to themselves either

01:47:47.160 consciously or subconsciously you know what this yeah i've got there's no room but root back for me

01:47:51.840 so i might as well double down what else is there open to me but i think number you there comes two

01:47:58.380 strategies that you have to implement for these people number one you have to put in a golden bridge

01:48:02.760 where like if you roll this back you know there is going to be hope for you on the other side because if

01:48:07.140 you remove that hope then effectively what else is left for them but doubling down and becoming even

01:48:12.340 more radical but also as well and particularly for with young men and somebody who's worked however

01:48:17.700 long with young people when i was teaching it's like you need to hold them accountable if people

01:48:23.120 are not held accountable for their actions or their points of view then they're going to think

01:48:27.880 this isn't fine or acceptable to say this particularly if the clicks and notoriety and the money is coming

01:48:33.580 through because you can say to yourself hey it's just banter hey this doesn't matter hey this is

01:48:38.600 cool but there are going to be people watching it who are like oh maybe the holocaust didn't happen

01:48:43.540 maybe you know jews aren't assimilable maybe jews x maybe jews y and then before you know it you see

01:48:50.160 all of these people propagating on the internet and look we you've got jewish family i've got jewish

01:48:56.180 family constantin's got jewish family we've got jewish friends i'm not jewish i was raised catholic

01:49:00.580 but i have jewish people and friends coming to me going francis we're really worried yeah we were

01:49:06.320 with somebody last night and i and we were having dinner and he got quite emotional and i thought

01:49:12.040 what's going on here i looked in his eyes dave there was genuine fear and he said to me this is the most

01:49:19.160 worried i've ever been and this is a guy who is not a young guy and that that really strikes it worries

01:49:26.140 me because that people shouldn't have to live like that and i don't think it's an exaggeration you

01:49:31.800 know when people go racism's everywhere i go yeah come on let's all calm down but you look at this stuff

01:49:36.400 and you go this is the most vile toxic stuff and that must worry you um i think yeah i don't like i

01:49:43.600 certainly like there's definitely been look there's been a huge enormous rise in anti-israel

01:49:49.360 views and and with that there has come a big rise in just anti-jewish views in general and um sure i

01:49:56.620 mean there's i i know that there's a lot of fear particularly in this city uh right now there's a

01:50:00.660 lot of fear uh amongst jewish people there's armed security around all types of jewish schools and

01:50:06.620 synagogues and stuff like that and sure i think um i think that's terrible you don't want anybody to

01:50:11.640 be in fear of their safety and that being said it's not exactly clear to me i mean i don't know

01:50:16.080 it's not exactly clear to me like how real that threat is like if there was an armed security there

01:50:20.520 would people be bursting into it's kind of hard like it's hard to decipher what does the twitter

01:50:26.080 comments actually mean in real life like i don't know what happened in washington look what happened

01:50:31.420 in washington well sure sure but at the same time like this is again for people who have been using

01:50:36.280 the term woke right a lot like i was just saying like you can't you can't borrow the methodology of

01:50:41.340 the woke left here and say that if people feel scared or if that you can point to one example in

01:50:47.400 a country of 350 million people that therefore you can deduce from that that they're you know like

01:50:52.240 this is what they used to do with hate crimes and stuff like that like if there was one example that

01:50:55.740 would prove that everybody's right and then they would also use fear you know in this this kind of

01:51:00.820 that's a fair point but let's come back to what we were talking about the rhetoric the things being

01:51:05.540 used online i don't think it's unreasonable for a jewish person to see clips of nick fuentes where

01:51:11.060 you go sit down jew boy and go holy fuck that's like something out of like mississippi's burning what

01:51:17.720 the hell is this i i'm not saying that a jewish person shouldn't be offended by stuff that nick said

01:51:22.980 you know i know i agree with you i'm not saying it's offensive i'm not i don't really care about

01:51:27.060 offense dave like offense offense i'm talking about like that would really worry you if i was if i was

01:51:32.340 jewish and i had jew kids and what i'd be like what is this the start of something because it

01:51:37.300 sometimes feels like it i'm going to be honest with you because the difference is you know your

01:51:41.200 point actually i think is totally valid which is like you know people exaggerate threats and then

01:51:46.220 they go because of this now this but i i don't think during the summer of 2020 when blm went nuts

01:51:52.340 there were people streaming on platforms saying the type of things that they're saying about

01:52:00.500 jews by the way he's also saying about black people right around blacks never relax is a favorite

01:52:05.440 catchphrase of nick's as far as i can tell right like that wasn't happening people were not talking

01:52:10.680 about you know like nick about the black power in society and we've got a when we come to power we're

01:52:16.600 gonna execute the perfidious jews why is that that wasn't happening during the black lives matter

01:52:21.280 yeah like i'm sorry i'm just not following the black lives matter the people who are anti-blm okay

01:52:26.340 okay we're not saying the type of things that nick is saying so it's not quite the case

01:52:30.900 that you know work left work right we can argue about the terminology i don't actually give a

01:52:35.180 shit about the term work right i care about the phenomenon which i think is real which is what

01:52:38.500 we're actually talking about um but so that that's kind of the point right we're not saying oh look

01:52:44.000 a jewish person got offended by a tweet and now we have to restructure society to make it's just like

01:52:50.320 i think what francis is saying is there's a real threat and you've got to remember as well we come from

01:52:53.780 the uk where attacks against jews are like happening on a daily basis now are they yeah i just don't

01:52:59.780 know enough about that i mean there was just an attack outside a synagogue uh in which a number

01:53:04.480 of people were killed and it's a regular thing now yeah i mean look that stuff is sure it's definitely

01:53:09.600 not good and i think that there's um you know there's there's like a like a feedback loop or a

01:53:15.580 weird like symbiotic relationship between kind of like there there's like there's there's a a well

01:53:22.160 deserved paranoia that jews have about like society turning on them right and this is something

01:53:27.660 like as a jewish person i mean you you really cannot overstate this there's like a major cultural

01:53:32.700 thing amongst jews particularly like my parents generation it's not quite at the same with my

01:53:37.680 generation and younger people but where they really were like raised on in in many cases more

01:53:42.600 than the religion itself like the religion that they were raised on was that europeans tried to

01:53:48.160 exterminate you and they will do it again like this could happen at any moment and that you have

01:53:53.240 to like you know and and that not for the state of israel existing that you know that probably would

01:53:59.160 happen or something and so yes when they see things like that then it's just complete confirmation to

01:54:04.800 them that of course this is all real that's part of the reason why i think it's very unhelpful for

01:54:09.960 nick to say those things you know um but i also do think that and i guess i i i agree with your

01:54:15.520 point no it's not exactly the same as as some of these other phenomenons i guess i would just make

01:54:19.840 the point that it's like you almost want to like calm all of that down and rationally assess like what

01:54:26.600 really is the threat level to jews you know in this country because because broadly speaking jews are

01:54:32.000 two percent of the population in america they are wildly successful like they're not exactly a victim

01:54:36.940 group um although historically you can be both you can be economically successful and have influence

01:54:44.760 perhaps disproportionately so as many uh successful minorities do it's not sure sure right sure sure

01:54:50.480 you can also be at the same time the target of violence and actually often those two things go

01:54:55.040 that's fair that's a fair point they go hand in hand together amy chua's book on that was actually

01:54:58.700 really great where it's like the market dominant minorities end up thomas hall has some really

01:55:03.360 interesting writing about middlemen minorities yeah that's a fair point yeah uh you know i think i think

01:55:09.980 this one thing i would like people to take away from this conversation which is what we are talking

01:55:14.660 about is not who should be platformed or not platformed or any of this bullshit but rather about

01:55:19.700 if you're going to have people with extreme views we feel you have a responsibility that comes with the

01:55:26.020 audience that you have i have francis has tucker has in a much bigger way all of us to make sure that

01:55:32.540 if if there are people who are coming with really abhorrent views you could definitely and maybe should

01:55:37.560 have a conversation with them in the way you said and i don't think berating them is necessarily the

01:55:41.400 answer but you gotta you can't people say this stuff like you know kevin roberts tried to pull

01:55:47.560 this off and he's a very slick political operator does that heritage he was like look the answer

01:55:53.240 the answer to terrible ideas is to engage with the terrible ideas and danielos goes so would you

01:55:58.640 have him on heritage no right so he you can't have those both things he handled that in the worst

01:56:07.040 possible way at every inch of it like there he because first he came out with a real bold statement

01:56:14.100 like i got tucker's back and screw all you guys who are trying to smear him and then it's like hey once

01:56:20.280 you say that dude then you have to lay the gauntlet down and defend that just to make that statement

01:56:25.100 and then just totally back it was just it's almost like he's a politician

01:56:29.120 the thing that got leaked where they're all like the struggle session about all of it oh my god it

01:56:36.420 was heritage is a big organization and clearly a lot of people that feel differently about it within

01:56:41.440 the business uh business within the the non-profit uh whatever it is i don't know i mean in a large

01:56:47.420 organization particularly a non-profit one where it's like like look i'll be honest if trigonometry

01:56:52.320 staff came to me and to me and francis and were like we don't like the direction of the show i'd

01:56:57.240 i'd be like fuck you can find a new job you hear that fellas i mean they're also younger and stronger

01:57:02.880 than us that's true they probably have a power yeah the story is just the team beats the crowd

01:57:08.300 yeah and also these kids can run for days and also they're a lot better looking so the quality of the

01:57:13.800 show at least on the visual front would improve yeah but but in a large organization that's a

01:57:19.500 non-profit with appointees you know if half your organization thinks you made a terrible mistake

01:57:24.140 and they're going to say it at an all-staff meeting that's perfectly legitimate they're entitled to

01:57:28.060 express it's not a struggle session it's people saying you took our thing that we're all part of

01:57:33.500 some of us have worked here 10 times as long as you in a direction that we hate yeah to me but anyway

01:57:39.160 i don't want to share on kevin or you know whatever uh my point is something else let's um let's just say

01:57:45.380 one thing that's important to say which is we're not calling for anyone to be no platformed or

01:57:50.680 censored or whatever or or canceled by the way right like i i haven't i don't follow mark levin

01:57:56.680 comments very closely if he's calling for people to be banned off social media i don't agree with

01:58:00.980 oh yeah he explicitly said uh cancel them i am d platform by no means no one here is calling for

01:58:06.160 that i i think we even if you believe that instinctively i think we tried that and we see

01:58:10.980 that it doesn't work well also and and i would also say that and i think this is one of the things

01:58:14.580 like that's interesting to me about the nick fuentes phenomenon but all of this stuff because

01:58:18.760 i've really never and i've been around some pretty influential people i have never seen anybody stretch

01:58:23.620 the overton window the way this guy has and right and and rise to the level of of uh prominence with

01:58:29.560 views that all of us would have assumed would be like oh that's a non-starter you'll never get

01:58:34.240 popular taking that opinion or whatever um but one of the things that's kind of interesting is it's like

01:58:39.360 from my perspective also like for mark levin to be calling for de-platforming of anyone it's like as

01:58:45.140 we started with like dude you cheerlead the iraq war yeah i just don't understand and this was a

01:58:51.160 thing that's very interesting to me too and it was kind of a dynamic when i debated douglas murray on

01:58:55.460 joe rogan's show and with mark levin and all these guys it's just the the nerve of somebody to have

01:59:01.080 cheerlead the war in iraq and then turn around and say now i'm going to dictate who should be allowed

01:59:07.460 to be in this conversation or who should be marginalized or who should be taken like i don't

01:59:12.160 know and maybe this is because i am a radical libertarian and so fundamentally even as we were

01:59:16.580 talking about in gaza i believe that state action is every bit as evil as private action if it's the

01:59:22.140 same action but like you cheerlead a war that got a million people killed and you were wrong about

01:59:28.660 everything now if you're going to argue that you still get to be a commentator you don't have to go

01:59:33.280 away forever fine but i really don't think you should be lecturing anyone on who else ought to

01:59:38.420 be deplatformed um and then in addition to just agreeing with what you said that it's also just

01:59:42.860 not productive for yeah i don't think it worked but but i was going to go to something else which is

01:59:46.860 i do think um there's been also a kind of weird and i don't think accurate defense

01:59:52.740 of tucker and and and what he did and and the broader conversation which is like stop trying to

01:59:59.120 cancel tucker and mainly it's directed at people who are just saying i don't like the way he conducted

02:00:04.100 that interview right so and then it comes to this thing about oh you know these people are trying to

02:00:10.500 split the right or or whatever and what we need to do is just let everybody you know come together

02:00:15.340 and hold hands and sing kumbaya but like you're a libertarian i imagine that if someone came to the

02:00:22.140 libertarian party or the libertarian movement and was like hey guys i think the best libertarianism is big

02:00:28.660 government you'd be like well you're entitled to that opinion but not you're not in this movement

02:00:36.700 yeah right yeah if you love socialism and gun control you probably can't be in the libertarian

02:00:41.360 movement just like if you love stalin and hitler maybe you are not part of the right wing conservative

02:00:47.060 movement is that is that so so when people say that's what the but that's what you don't really

02:00:51.640 get to decide that's what the debate is about right now there are some people who say well if you try to

02:00:56.760 have that debate you're trying to cancel people and you're trying to split the movement i i'm not on

02:01:03.560 the right nor am i you know in any of these conversations but i look at it from an outside

02:01:08.220 perspective and i go isn't that a movement trying to work out whether it believes in as a libertarian

02:01:14.220 movement in big government are these ideas that nick is talking about do they belong in this family of

02:01:20.780 views or do they stay outside of it because they don't belong in the same way that i don't think

02:01:27.120 tucker carson would have dylan mulvaney on the trans influencer and be like hmm tell me your views

02:01:33.160 about how to chop your dick off and then every conservative would be like oh yeah tucker's entitled

02:01:38.040 to have well he is entitled to have whatever you want but but that doesn't fit within the conversation

02:01:42.600 of the broader political wing of america is that a fair assessment well look i mean like i said before i

02:01:49.280 think like i said i think there should be more debates and more conversations and all of this

02:01:53.060 stuff so i i agree with you and i also think the um you know the the whole argument which has been

02:01:58.400 made on both sides of like you're splitting the maga coalition it's always it's like yeah but so are

02:02:04.160 you i mean we're all split like yeah that's the whole problem with you on that like we're figuring

02:02:07.920 out what we which idea is the language right right but what's kind of interesting right like about just

02:02:13.180 again not so hard and i i think you're also right that there certainly have been people probably

02:02:18.080 yourself included who have like been like hey i want to debate nick fuentes or i think tucker

02:02:23.500 should have been but you know more aggressive in debating him and then they go you're engaging in

02:02:27.480 cancel culture and that's silly um but also at the same time mark levin is up there but the thing that

02:02:32.740 was interesting about mark levin's call for cancel culture like i was saying before is that he's

02:02:36.640 calling for tucker candace and nick fuentes to be canceled which like at this point are probably the

02:02:43.980 three biggest right-wing political commentators in the country and so yes it is certainly true

02:02:50.640 that this this maga coalition is going to have to figure out what their identity is going to be going

02:02:57.820 forward after donald trump and i think that's what a lot of this fight is over right now but i think

02:03:03.060 what's like there's again like i said before there's because there's so many different aspects to this

02:03:07.320 but there's the stuff we said before about how the the left-wing racialism was always destined to

02:03:12.960 trigger a reactionary racialism on the right wing then there's the fact that so many of these young

02:03:17.920 people grew up without fathers and on drugs and i did a whole video you know i mean it's just like

02:03:22.640 like there's a lot of these factors and then of course there's there's the factors that we all know

02:03:26.180 which is like the war on terrorism and what a disaster this has been for the entire country

02:03:30.860 and of course donald trump even in 2016 was really a rejection of of the bush neoconservatism he said it

02:03:38.220 right to his brother's face that your brother lied us into a war about the most aggressive thing you

02:03:42.860 could say to somebody else you know um and i think what's happening right now is that there's been

02:03:48.400 like the non-interventionists the anti-war right wing and that that ranges from non-interventionists

02:03:56.580 like myself who believe in liberty and are not identitarian all the way over to like very

02:04:01.120 identitarian uh non-interventionists are getting a bigger and bigger portion of the right wing in this

02:04:08.500 country and there's a new power imbalance here where like the a lot of the old guard neocon types

02:04:13.600 interestingly who were the never trumpers themselves i think it was dinesh when he was

02:04:18.220 on your show was bringing that up uh i believe was it it might have been yeah but which point

02:04:22.660 specifically was that well i think what he said you know i watched i watched the interview with

02:04:25.840 dinesh on this show and then i watched the interview with him on like uh it was like the jewish

02:04:29.540 network channel and i don't i might be mixing up which happened in yours and which happened in that one

02:04:33.660 but at one point that's quite anti-semitic yeah well there you go there you go i can tell you this

02:04:38.240 is not the jewish channel it was all a bunch of indians talking to jews as far as i'm concerned

02:04:42.120 same thing right but um but so but he was saying at one point that he was like he was mentioning like

02:04:49.060 he was like this is where the neoconservatives lost all their influence is because they jumped on

02:04:53.100 the never trump in the reagan era in conservatism there was a certain i would call it the intellectual

02:05:00.920 guardians of the tribe people like william f buckley uh reagan to a certain degree but there

02:05:08.080 were others serving crystal and the idea here was that um if you came in with like the poison

02:05:15.480 of anti-semitism blatant racism you know criticism of affirmative action yes um calling blacks monkeys

02:05:24.340 no um so if you did that you were basically asked to leave the room uh and you were abolished from

02:05:33.500 the you wouldn't be invited to conservative conferences you certainly wouldn't be a speaker

02:05:37.880 it would basically be the end of you as a public figure so that's gone and it's gone why partly because

02:05:46.060 we don't have a conservative intellectual class that performs that task um and why don't we have that

02:05:54.300 well partly because the mainstream of that class went never trump and so when i look around for like

02:06:02.780 if i were to make a list of let's say 30 of my colleagues from the reagan days i would say that

02:06:10.640 probably about 25 of them went anti-trump and they went to anti-trump in different places john bolton

02:06:17.540 is a little different place than say bill crystal uh but nevertheless they're they're by and large

02:06:22.200 excluded from maga and what happened is partly as a result of a cultural shift maga produces a new type

02:06:29.700 of um a new type of pundit he did kind of yada yada yada over the war on terrorism as if that didn't

02:06:39.220 also have a huge thing to do with how they lost their influence like it was also the swimming pool

02:06:44.060 of blood of innocent babies that you're standing in um but it is actually but there's something very

02:06:48.780 interesting to me where and i've noticed this dynamic a lot right so this was uh ben shapiro

02:06:54.160 like did several segments on me over the years but he never said my name it became kind of a running

02:06:58.580 joke amongst my audience that he would bring but it wasn't even like he'd play clips of when i was on

02:07:02.600 rogan like he'd play a clip on my podcast and still got some comedian who blah blah and you're like

02:07:07.360 you've you clearly saw it and it's the easiest name to remember but so the first time he ever

02:07:12.400 said my name was when i came out for uh against donald trump over the 12-day war uh and i called

02:07:17.940 for him to be impeached over it and all this stuff you know i was i was pretty dramatic about it um but

02:07:23.040 so then he called me out by name and then you know i've had you know josh hammer this is what he tried

02:07:27.620 to debate me on at that event with charlie where it was like oh look what this guy's saying about

02:07:31.520 donald trump and uh then stephen crowder just recently it was like look what you said about donald trump

02:07:36.120 but it's like guys we all remember that you were the never trumpers like we all remember like the

02:07:42.440 national review piece i don't remember was bannon never trump never trump or said under no circumstances

02:07:47.000 would he ever vote for donald trump same with stephen crowder same with mark levin mark levin

02:07:51.800 urged his whole audience to know that you will never get me to support donald trump i mean jd once

02:07:56.120 was a never trump yeah yeah no but i'm just saying but for anyone who was a never trump to like start

02:08:00.500 using that against you just seems like a very weird thing but so there were the obviously there's

02:08:04.980 the the war hawks who were totally against donald trump they then all became trumpers or became

02:08:10.100 democrats some of them just went and built uh crystal and them uh but and now there is just this big fight

02:08:16.580 about like what's next well i think the fight is good i agree i think we gotta i think it's necessary

02:08:21.860 i i just don't like this idea that if you say i think these ideas like the example i gave you a big

02:08:28.500 government in the libertarian movement these ideas should be outside of the tent a lot of people

02:08:33.300 go that's engaging that's not cancel culture that's people arguing about what it means to

02:08:37.620 be a conservative or right winger sure sure 100 and and i'll say this as i've been saying pretty

02:08:42.820 consistently is that i've just like i just oppose all of this racialism i mean on all sides i mean

02:08:49.060 it's just like it's um again i'm not saying like identity doesn't matter or there aren't any

02:08:54.340 differences between groups i'm not an egalitarian i i thought charles murray's book was totally

02:08:58.900 reasonable like i'm not like you can't mention that there are differences between media and iqs

02:09:03.620 or something like that like there's there's obviously differences between racial groups and

02:09:07.860 cultures and all of these things but the only way just like we were saying before about like

02:09:12.100 the only way to go forward is for us to have a conversation and be reasonable because otherwise

02:09:16.020 we just got to always fight the only way to go forward in a multiracial multicultural society

02:09:21.780 is to have a strong level of individualism and not and i will say that i think you know they're uh

02:09:28.820 like josh hammer had multiple tweets he didn't say it once like multiple posts where he said that um

02:09:36.180 jew hatred is is in the dna of europeans and like i think that's also like that's a dumb statement all

02:09:44.180 the anti-white racialism yes all the anti-white racialism of the world but this is something

02:09:50.180 my grant i'm i'm a sort of slowly becoming christian i think but and i was raised as a christian but i

02:09:56.580 have uh one of my grandparents my grandfather was an atheist jew so i maybe maybe i'm allowed to say

02:10:03.380 this progressive jews are the worst people in the world i mean i'd go for pedophiles but

02:10:10.660 in the political realm well there's some overlap right but and and this is kind of the problem i think

02:10:16.260 for jews in general is because jews are disproportionately successful you know we can

02:10:21.620 get into the reasons for why that is and i don't think you know i think it's anyway let's not get

02:10:26.820 into that the longer conversation they are overrepresented and everything and so if you are

02:10:32.340 on the far right and you want to prove that jews are responsible for all the left-wing craziness

02:10:38.180 there they are there's a bunch of progressive jews who did all the retarded

02:10:41.140 shit they've got us to where we are now right with the woke left stuff if you want to if you're on

02:10:45.700 the left and you uh a left-wing anti-semite and you want to prove that jews are the reason for ice

02:10:51.860 red you know there's steven miller right there in the white house doing all this and so no the war

02:10:56.900 on terrorism communism i mean yeah there's a whole bunch of things you could look because jews are

02:11:00.660 overrepresented and particularly in intellectual endeavors well it's in my my field of uh my view of

02:11:05.860 libertarianism i mean it's totally like murray rothbard and ludwig von mises and just

02:11:10.980 just right jews all around so and and the same with other groups is is if you really racialize

02:11:17.540 a nation and you get everyone to think about their identity i just don't think that ends well for

02:11:23.460 anybody well it also no i agree with you it doesn't end well for anybody it's also it um it's corrosive

02:11:31.060 to your own soul and your own mind like i've just seen it in people i've seen people who get like and

02:11:35.940 and both like on like all different types of racialism like i've seen it during on woke leftists

02:11:40.660 where like they just got and somehow racialism it's like catnip for the plebs people love it

02:11:45.780 they get so into it so yeah it like really does play on that tribal thing and it leads to sloppy

02:11:51.620 thinking like i've just seen this all over the place where you're like no dude like you're you're

02:11:55.940 starting with your conclusion here and not thinking clearly and this is one of the problems of

02:12:01.380 collectivism in general is that like it's not actually accurate did you have we're individual this

02:12:05.940 is not a got you in any way i'm just curious because i didn't watch all your interview with

02:12:09.460 nick did you have this debate with him about identitarianism yeah we got into um yeah i mean

02:12:15.460 we got into just like the idea of collectivism versus individualism and the idea of like at

02:12:19.860 you know like harboring resentment toward anybody because of their race and then i i mean i we kind

02:12:25.700 of had the argument of like is your is your beef with the israel lobby and the government of israel or

02:12:30.740 is your beef with the jews and i made the point to him that um which i think is a really sound

02:12:36.580 point is that like there's really no question that like the israel lobby was pushing for the war in

02:12:43.300 iraq whether it's the neoconservatives aipac the uae the washington institute for near east policy like

02:12:50.580 all these groups were openly for the war in iraq but american jews were the strongest in opposition

02:12:56.100 to the war in iraq now part of that is because they're liberal but whatever still on that issue

02:13:00.740 they were good on that issue and so i was just making the argument that like well no actually

02:13:04.340 i'm much more accurate when i'm saying the israel lobby rather than saying the jews and then i i

02:13:10.020 think at one point i was like like barry the dentist down the street has nothing to do with what's

02:13:14.580 happening in gaza and he seemed to kind of agree with that but you know the thing is i thought we

02:13:20.660 might argue a little bit more on the show but every time i kind of brought up a topic that was like

02:13:25.540 the thing i thought we were going to argue about she didn't really disagree with what i was saying

02:13:30.820 and maybe i should have done maybe i should have been tougher but again also it's like you know none

02:13:35.780 of these things are ever a perfect interview and i wouldn't i wouldn't be opposed i said this uh on

02:13:39.700 a show the other day but i wouldn't be opposed to doing like a more like like structured debate

02:13:44.420 with nick fuentes about these issues i did a debate with them once a few years ago um but yeah but

02:13:50.740 look i mean i just think that the there's gonna have to be a thing i also think part of this which is

02:13:55.140 like a kind of a broader question is like so i was born in 1983 all right the civil rights act in in

02:14:03.460 the united states was in 1964. now as a kid you feel like that's ancient history you know but like

02:14:09.220 as you get older you're like oh i was born 19 years after the civil rights act and now we are 60 plus

02:14:17.300 years after the civil rights act and i think perhaps that it's kind of appropriate and i'm not even

02:14:21.620 talking about law i'm just talking about like culture but i think it's kind of appropriate

02:14:26.340 to have a different dynamic 60 years after something verse 19 years after something and i

02:14:33.220 think that the um the the fact that essentially the rules of polite society have been for quite a

02:14:39.700 while that everyone's allowed to be collectivist everyone's allowed to have their own racial identity

02:14:45.780 except for straight white men and that is just we we've got to find a way to go like no it just it

02:14:52.740 can't be that it's not gonna work going but that's why we've been against well i know well listen well

02:14:57.060 look the first thing i ever saw you on as i'm sure most people uh or not most people but a lot of people

02:15:01.380 found you on that oxford speech that went super viral and i thought that was i thought it was brilliant

02:15:05.620 man like you were totally breaking it down this is not this first of all we're so many years removed

02:15:10.500 from this that it's just unreasonable to say that like these people are the victimized class also

02:15:15.780 with the mass immigration like half the people who are on the lower rungs of society weren't here to

02:15:21.140 be oppressed by any of this stuff they just got welcomed into a very nice society that's been built

02:15:25.860 for them so they really don't have like a a grievance with the they might think they do but they don't

02:15:32.340 um and so i do just think there's something there's a there's a signal of nick fuentes being so big

02:15:39.060 that all of us should really think about you know like really grapple with this it's like

02:15:43.460 there are young straight white men and that's not exclusively his audience but i think it is

02:15:48.500 majority who are not playing this game anymore and i understand it you know i understand i saw one clip

02:15:54.580 again the other day it was someone i think it was someone at the mom donnie victory party i don't know

02:15:59.860 if you saw this but at his victory where they were like they're white people don't have culture you

02:16:04.020 you know that whole woke thing that they go off in those circles everybody needs some spies

02:16:08.660 compelling their lives lives a lot better and that's the coolest thing about americans

02:16:13.460 americans have no culture except for multicultural well said

02:16:18.020 and we need to teach people how to embrace that these crusty white people who learn how to embrace it

02:16:24.020 because they do what they think they're entertaining yes

02:16:27.460 and there's like a certain point where you just hear that and you're like we don't like white people

02:16:37.060 don't have culture are you out of your mind like whatever and and we've just got to find a way to

02:16:42.740 like move forward where it's like we're not doing that anymore on all sides right yeah and that is a

02:16:48.740 perfect place to end the interview dave look one of the things i love about america is that people are so

02:16:54.820 much more willing to come on this show to come on shows where people disagree and have good faith

02:17:01.220 discussions disagreements debate so really thank you so much for coming on it's been a pleasure

02:17:06.580 the say the final question is always the same what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society

02:17:11.220 that we really should be well oh man there's a few oh god there's so do you mind if we don't wrap up

02:17:17.060 just yet because we've got a bit of time and there's one or two other things i wanted to talk

02:17:20.260 okay yeah yeah cool cool cool uh but i have forgotten what i wanted to ask that's unfortunate

02:17:28.420 before you leave before you leave i've got all these questions that you guys you guys are too

02:17:32.660 young but you ever can we get some more water and i'll remember it when when we were kids there used

02:17:36.420 to be like cop shows that were real big yeah there was a big one in america called colombo and it would

02:17:41.380 always go it would always be the same thing like it would be like he's he's asking the guy things and

02:17:45.940 the guy's like no i was here i was here at this time right and then you go okay we have no further

02:17:49.540 questions and then he'd walk and he'd go there is just yeah and that would always be the moment

02:17:55.060 where they're like they got he'd be like i wasn't there on tuesday and like no one said tuesday

02:18:00.660 yeah so i thought constantine was about to do that to me that's what's gonna happen i was like all

02:18:03.940 right i survived this we got through it and then constant went there is just one more thing i have

02:18:08.980 a screenshot here there is just one more thing and it's not a screenshot but it is actually a question

02:18:13.940 and i don't mean this in a disparaging way but here's something i think about a lot right we're

02:18:20.180 all creatures of the internet you are we are everybody in our game is on the internet and there's a

02:18:29.060 hell of a lot of the country that's not on the internet like we shed on the mainstream media with

02:18:33.140 very good justification but if you look at the numbers tv in aggregate is way bigger than us right

02:18:41.940 they might be going this way and we're going that way but there are way way way more people in this

02:18:47.380 country who are not engaging in debates about israel on twitter sure sure then there are who are right

02:18:53.860 and so i thought that obviously you just had the midterm not the midterms but you had the elections

02:18:58.340 here in the us the democrats crushed very good night for the democrats very good night for the democrats

02:19:05.220 and you know there's some reasons for that which we can get into but i i i did see a tweet from you

02:19:11.620 that made me kind of go is dave a little bit too online here because you said you know this is all

02:19:17.860 about israel it's sort of how i read it maybe unfair no no that that probably you know i did a a whole

02:19:22.900 podcast on that and that was like the tweet i put out that day but i probably could have worded that

02:19:28.100 better or at least been a little clearer on what i was saying which i think i was clear on the podcast

02:19:32.100 but i did say at one point in the tweet like it's all about israel and i didn't my point is not

02:19:37.380 exactly that and in fact i don't think that's even what because it's about economics yeah but right

02:19:43.140 but the thing is this right it's like so first of all let me just say it first it really because

02:19:48.740 i've seen some like republicans here trying to downplay it like whatever these were these were

02:19:52.740 democrat strongholds anyway but like that is just not right and this should be a huge wake-up call for the

02:19:57.780 republican party because you after the absolute destruction of the party the collapse of biden

02:20:03.860 and kamala harris and this party being and the i mean like we've in my lifetime there's never been

02:20:09.460 a party that was more damaged than where the democrats were coming in with a 24 approval rating

02:20:14.580 that even when trump's approval rating dipped didn't bump up at all like they they just they were

02:20:21.220 and the fact that okay in uh in take new york city out of it because trump endorsed cuomo so the

02:20:28.260 republican getting seven percent even though it's pretty pathetic is a little bit of an asterisk

02:20:31.700 but in jersey it was a much closer race for the governor the gubernatorial race last time than this

02:20:36.660 time and virginia should be competitive after 2024 and that's so the fact that they got blown out by 20

02:20:43.140 points and then blown out in new jersey worse than they did two years ago uh that's a really bad sign and

02:20:49.700 when i say that it's all i mean look kamala harris didn't lose solely because of of israel but it

02:21:01.700 definitely like totally divided her base and they you know the the left-wing activists were calling

02:21:08.980 the president genocide joe for a full year like leading up to the election and those left-wing activists

02:21:16.500 were the people they needed to be out there as their attack dogs against donald trump and they

02:21:21.860 weren't doing it they weren't protesting him they were protesting the genocide as they see it

02:21:26.500 that was the current administration was conducting and now likewise with donald trump you know you

02:21:32.660 you have this dynamic where he can he can say i gave israel every weapon they needed so that they

02:21:38.660 could destroy all of gaza and then we're going to spend money to rebuild it and do all this and i

02:21:43.460 bombed the houthis and i bombed the nuclear sites in iran and all this but that's actually not what's

02:21:48.260 winning any of the votes what people care about and what all three of these democrats ran on is the

02:21:53.780 unaffordability crisis right in other words inflation in other words the debasement of the currency and so

02:22:00.740 my broader point is like what we started with to begin with that it's like if you want to do what

02:22:05.780 donald trump's doing which is essentially saying i want an even bigger defense budget i want to have the

02:22:10.580 first trillion dollar defense budget and i won't touch entitlement programs and all of this well

02:22:15.540 then the only way to maintain that is to continue debasing the currency and but the problem here is

02:22:21.860 that what they go look inflation's not as bad as under joe biden it was only three and a half percent

02:22:26.980 year to date but that just means for everybody else it's worse than it was under joe biden well but

02:22:32.580 this is why i'm asking you because with all respect we disagree about israel but that's not why i'm

02:22:39.220 saying it i just think like for example when wokeness was at its peak i would say that was my

02:22:45.300 lens to see pretty much everything and so i would probably over index the impact of some things it

02:22:51.220 just when i saw that tweet from you i just thought like you've massively over indexed this one yeah no

02:22:58.580 i might i might have been a little bit guilty of that and i probably could have worded that that tweet

02:23:01.940 better but i do also think that we shouldn't understate i mean look this huge divide on the right

02:23:07.140 wing right now is all about this i mean it's all about foreign policy and israel at least but note

02:23:12.020 to your point that's in the commentator class whereas i do agree with you that for broadly

02:23:17.860 speaking for the rest of the country things like look i mean through all of 2024 every single poll that

02:23:23.540 was i mean maybe there's one i missed but every single poll that was done on it it's like the two

02:23:28.100 issues were the economy and immigration all of it that's what people care right but of course of course

02:23:32.420 that makes sense right but i also think that like the economy and immigration are also you know

02:23:38.900 they're they're related to all of these policies i mean immigration not as much for us i think much

02:23:43.060 more so in europe that immigration is not unrelated to the fact that we fought wars in iraq afghanistan

02:23:48.900 syria libya somalia yemen like all that is that a big factor no you don't think toppling of qaddafi

02:23:54.740 that was a big factor in the migrant crisis i i think the fact that people wanted to leave

02:24:00.500 was partly caused by the conflicts of course whether we had to let them in no i agree with

02:24:07.140 i certainly agree with that you still don't have to let them in right if so if you're going to have

02:24:10.980 a lax yes it is the worst of both worlds to have a lax immigration policy and then start funding civil

02:24:17.780 wars in all of the southern what i'm getting at though and forgive me for honing in on this and

02:24:23.300 and you've already said you know i should have been with her i i just wonder whether there is

02:24:28.500 when you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back into you and i just wonder because your focus has

02:24:34.660 been on the things that you believe israel has done wrong whether that's kind of so over indexed now that

02:24:41.300 you just like when something happens you just go well this is about israel and by the way you challenge

02:24:45.220 people as well in this to be fair to you right like when someone said israel killed charlie kirk you

02:24:49.060 were like what's the evidence for this yeah right but i also just wonder whether you know you're

02:24:54.580 over indexing it yeah look i mean i'm sure we're all guilty of that at times um and perhaps although

02:25:00.340 i don't i do think that like no there's a major i mean this is this is like a big thing that's

02:25:05.940 happening in the country and the relationship between the us and israel is i think viewed in a

02:25:10.820 drastically different way that would have been like unthinkable a generation ago and i think that

02:25:15.860 that particularly with young people um and that's going to be you know that's going to have a big

02:25:20.020 impact going forward um no i mean i think that there's um you know it's like people could say

02:25:27.700 like twitter's not real life and it's like it is it comes eventually it isn't it isn't you know what

02:25:32.180 i mean like it kind of is and it kind of isn't um but you can't you can't blame the election results

02:25:37.460 on it is what i'm saying i think that uh i i think that the fact that donald trump is um uh

02:25:46.580 pursuing the foreign policy that he's pursued uh i think is also related to why he buried the epstein

02:25:51.620 thing which really got a lot of his base uh got a lot of the enthusiasm like calmed down i think it

02:25:57.780 really damaged him and i think we'll see that in the future like looking back at it that that really did

02:26:02.580 damage him um but i do agree with you that i think i think the um i think covid and immigration

02:26:10.660 and the money the inflation is the thing that most people are really feeling i mean and and that just

02:26:17.460 most people what they really care about is like the kind of basic things that people care about

02:26:22.260 it's like being able to afford a decent home being able to send their kids to a decent school having

02:26:27.540 decent health coverage you know things like that so i do agree with you but i also think that like

02:26:33.140 essentially like the foreign policy and the entitlement programs are very related to those

02:26:37.140 phenomenons dave what a pleasure final question is always the same what's the one thing we're not

02:26:42.980 talking about that we really should be before dave answers the final question at the end of the

02:26:47.460 interview go to triggerpod.co.uk where we ask him your questions what would you say are the key

02:26:53.780 differences between the idf and hamas so do i think that hamas will relinquish power yes um i mean and

02:27:01.220 if they don't what would be the appropriate response from israel oh man you guys are making

02:27:05.620 me steal man douglas murray this isn't fair well i mean you know at the risk of sounding boring um

02:27:12.820 it really is the debt i mean like there's you know there's just so many conversations in in politics

02:27:18.740 and you know you have these moments like we had the the tea party uh here in america where hey we

02:27:24.020 were really talking about the debt and deficit and that's what all the republicans are going to run

02:27:28.180 on is we're going to be deficit hawks none of that materialized into anything it materialized into

02:27:34.260 donald trump uh well i mean i guess this is before donald trump was president but barack obama just

02:27:39.700 kept raising spending every year uh trump came in raised the spending from the levels that obama had

02:27:45.140 in then uh you know during 2020 his last year breaks all the records with the highest spending year

02:27:51.460 ever joe biden comes in and increases the spending from donald trump donald trump comes in again

02:27:56.660 increases the spend we can't even go back to pre-covid levels and what and then of course there

02:28:02.340 was this big thing about uh doge was going to find two trillion dollars in the budget and cut that and

02:28:08.500 we had these super tech geniuses who were going to do it and they were going to figure it all out

02:28:12.340 complete failure led to no cuts whatsoever and we're at a point now where the interest on the debt

02:28:18.660 is over a trillion dollars a year i think it's going to be 1.3 or 1.4 trillion this year and going up

02:28:24.820 yeah it's now becoming the number let's just think about this if we were to balance the budget

02:28:31.220 we which is impossible to even imagine under current situations we still run trillion dollar

02:28:37.700 deficits every single year this is like a cataclysmic shift that is coming um and it

02:28:44.500 threatens the the dollar is the is the world reserve currency it threatens you know the the whole standing

02:28:49.940 of america in the global order and yet there's just no political will as we were talking about before

02:28:56.420 to deal with any of the things that we can't afford this is why people don't talk about it man because

02:29:02.820 in the paradigm that we exist in there's nothing you can do and that's why i think what trump is trying

02:29:09.300 to do is trying to grow fast enough that you outrun that problem and maybe if ai doesn't kill us all

02:29:18.740 that's the way that robotics and ai maybe creates enough wealth creation over a rapid period of time

02:29:25.300 that we can sort that even with drastic spending cuts though you would need rapid growth just to

02:29:30.820 to overcome right so the idea that you can do it without drastic spending cuts is really a problem but

02:29:35.620 then i would also point out that then this is the thing i guess that's frustrating and i so i agree

02:29:39.860 with you but then i think the whole role is to break that paradigm just like you know how do you

02:29:44.500 do it well there's intellectually like talking about these things but the the point is that

02:29:48.660 look the whole lesson of the 20th the 20th century about economic systems is so obvious

02:29:54.420 like central planning fails and laissez-faire free markets produces prosperity like to unbelievable

02:30:00.260 i mean look think about the experiments run in north and south korea or east and west germany

02:30:05.140 where you have the same race the same culture the same like everything just one is an economic you

02:30:10.180 know socialist and one is reasonably free market and so you're like oh what's the problem that we

02:30:16.260 have to shrink the size of government and make that much smaller it's like yeah that's what leads

02:30:20.100 to prosperity we could have a ton of it but we would have to really get serious but think about

02:30:24.900 this though man i mean we just talked about the election results which are all about all about

02:30:28.820 affordability to cut entitlements and spending you're gonna have to hurt a lot of people yeah

02:30:35.300 no there's good i know everything is trade-offs and those people don't that's right they are not

02:30:39.540 gonna vote for somebody who does that look this is the truth it's it's a flaw in democracy yeah right

02:30:43.940 and i'm not saying that that's an argument for anything other than democracy but it certainly

02:30:47.860 is a flaw in democracy and there's there's flaws in monarchy there's flaws in you know all types of

02:30:52.580 different uh systems but one of the major flaws in democracy is just like look with anything else

02:30:59.380 the you know if if we're in the car and the car breaks down and there happens to be a mechanic who's

02:31:04.900 in the car with us we don't vote over what we think the solution should be we go well you know this

02:31:09.540 so you tell us what it should be and now i'm not saying you want a dictator or something like that

02:31:14.420 but when you have democracy when everyone gets an equal vote whether they're a net taxpayer or a

02:31:19.620 net tax recipient whether they're 18 whether they're 60 what any of these things it just

02:31:24.180 always makes sense to number one play to the low information voters there's always a lot more of

02:31:28.580 them than there are high information voters and then number two to promise free stuff to people

02:31:33.220 it's always more listen i'm gonna cut your taxes and give you free stuff is always a better sell

02:31:38.740 then we're gonna cut your program or we're gonna you know and but the short-term pain that would be

02:31:44.820 felt by cutting a lot of these programs is is far preferable to the long-term pain of a real debt

02:31:53.300 crisis which we're facing and the possibility of of like real hyperinflation which seems to be

02:31:59.220 long-term the most reasonable answer to all of this is that eventually you just what they call

02:32:04.180 monetize the debt right you just eventually you got to say okay well the only way we can actually pay

02:32:09.220 this money back is if we pay it in dollars that really aren't worth that much dave thank you so

02:32:14.340 much for coming on the show follow us over on substat where we continue the conversation

02:32:21.540 there's a genocide happening in sudan right now under your non-interventionist foreign policy we do

02:32:26.580 nothing and let it happen how many people would have to die before non-interventionism becomes immoral

02:32:31.780 and complicity

02:32:54.420 getting ready for a game means being ready for anything like packing a spare stick i like to be

02:32:59.700 prepared that's why i remember 988 canada's suicide crisis helpline it's good to know just in case

02:33:06.580 anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder

02:33:10.900 anytime 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government of canada

TRIGGERnometry - November 12, 2025

Dave Smith VS Triggernometry： War, Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson and the American Empire

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