TRIGGERnometry - David Starkey - I Won't Bow Down to the Mob

00:00:00.320 What do we do with people like you in society?

00:00:03.380 People who are talented and brilliant,

00:00:05.440 but also take risks and make mistakes

00:00:07.600 and sometimes say things that are insensitive

00:00:09.780 and some people find...

00:00:11.060 Always insensitive, yeah.

00:00:18.420 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:21.320 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:22.600 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:23.740 And this is a show for you

00:00:25.300 if you want honest conversations

00:00:27.280 with fascinating people.

00:00:29.360 Returning to the show today,

00:00:30.740 we have one of Britain's most brilliant historians

00:00:33.140 and a very controversial one at that,

00:00:34.820 Dr David Starkey.

00:00:35.640 Welcome back.

00:00:36.720 Hello.

00:00:37.500 I reference...

00:00:38.540 I'm going to be deeply...

00:00:39.260 I'm going to absolutely put you on the spot.

00:00:41.140 I should be so straightforward,

00:00:43.280 calm, neutral,

00:00:44.660 totally uncontroversial.

00:00:45.880 Yeah, I doubt that very much, David.

00:00:48.520 Back to you to tease it out of me.

00:00:50.580 We'll do our best,

00:00:51.600 but welcome back.

00:00:52.740 Thank you.

00:00:53.160 Last time we had you on the show,

00:00:54.860 as you alluded to in our conversation

00:00:56.840 prior to starting,

00:00:58.120 we were in a very different place,

00:00:59.840 but I put it to you

00:01:00.720 that so were you.

00:01:02.300 How have you been this past 18 months?

00:01:05.140 Much as I am now.

00:01:07.780 I take it you're referring to the

00:01:09.940 unfortunate and dramatic events

00:01:12.100 of last July,

00:01:14.300 or were you just talking about COVID?

00:01:16.420 No, no, I was talking about the fact

00:01:18.560 that shortly after we had you on the show,

00:01:20.800 you were speaking to Darren Grimes

00:01:22.180 on his show,

00:01:23.180 you made what I think you said

00:01:24.660 in one of your recent interviews

00:01:25.920 were stupid remarks

00:01:26.860 for which you apologised,

00:01:28.420 and there since then ensued

00:01:30.620 a whole maelstrom of various things.

00:01:32.780 So tell us about that.

00:01:34.460 Yes, well, I did make a stupid remark.

00:01:37.880 I used the word damn

00:01:39.380 in front of the word blacks,

00:01:41.640 which was a very stupid thing to do.

00:01:43.580 On the other hand,

00:01:44.520 what I was saying,

00:01:45.820 which is that slavery is not genocide,

00:01:48.660 or at least the Atlantic trade slavery

00:01:51.060 is not genocide,

00:01:52.320 is a straightforward statement of fact.

00:01:55.020 About 300,000 black people

00:01:58.880 were exported,

00:02:01.340 or they were treated as chattels,

00:02:03.300 were exported in slave ships

00:02:05.900 to the south of what is now

00:02:07.800 the United States,

00:02:09.300 300,000.

00:02:10.800 Within three generations,

00:02:13.520 there are millions.

00:02:14.120 Now, that's not a genocide.

00:02:17.320 But of course,

00:02:17.860 what everybody forgets,

00:02:19.100 one piece of slavery

00:02:21.320 was a genocide.

00:02:23.140 And that's the slavery

00:02:23.980 to the Islamic world.

00:02:25.980 That is the slavery

00:02:26.880 that actually goes over land

00:02:29.140 in Africa

00:02:29.980 to what was then called

00:02:31.160 the Ottoman Empire.

00:02:32.560 The best estimates are

00:02:33.960 it was 20 million,

00:02:37.200 20 million,

00:02:38.580 of whom the men

00:02:40.580 were castrated

00:02:41.540 and the women

00:02:42.960 were kept as concubines.

00:02:45.140 And most of the children,

00:02:46.720 which were, of course,

00:02:47.480 mixed race,

00:02:49.080 Turkish,

00:02:49.960 or whatever you want to call it,

00:02:51.040 Ottoman and African,

00:02:52.720 the children had their brains

00:02:54.100 dashed out.

00:02:55.360 That is a genocide.

00:02:57.380 But we don't talk about that

00:02:58.940 because there's no white guilt.

00:03:01.640 There's no guilt

00:03:02.300 of David Starkey in that.

00:03:04.000 So we don't talk about it.

00:03:05.480 But of course,

00:03:05.920 David,

00:03:06.120 that isn't the remark

00:03:07.580 that people took the issue with.

00:03:09.540 I think...

00:03:09.960 The remark was damn...

00:03:10.980 There were so many damn lies.

00:03:11.860 It was simply...

00:03:14.360 Of course,

00:03:14.960 it was stupid.

00:03:16.520 What I was in...

00:03:17.360 And also,

00:03:18.060 I even mentioned,

00:03:18.780 right, come on,

00:03:19.380 let's explore.

00:03:20.720 I'm sure neither of you

00:03:21.520 have ever said a word out of turn.

00:03:23.400 Obviously not.

00:03:24.080 Ever, ever,

00:03:25.080 ever said a word out of turn.

00:03:27.300 I committed a second stupidity.

00:03:30.520 I meant to illustrate it

00:03:31.800 by saying there wouldn't be

00:03:32.920 so many in America.

00:03:34.720 And my tongue slipped

00:03:35.540 and I said Africa.

00:03:36.720 Deranged.

00:03:37.160 Very, very bad.

00:03:38.860 And for somebody

00:03:39.360 who prides himself

00:03:40.400 on precision of language,

00:03:42.840 disgraceful.

00:03:43.660 On the other hand,

00:03:46.400 one word down.

00:03:49.380 Four letters.

00:03:52.380 If people had had their wishes,

00:03:55.500 an entire career

00:03:56.960 would have been destroyed

00:03:58.420 for four letters.

00:04:00.880 Who is actually seriously hurt?

00:04:03.700 Why is a word,

00:04:05.800 one word,

00:04:07.160 given this extraordinary weight?

00:04:09.620 Isn't it a bit religious?

00:04:12.840 Isn't it superstitious?

00:04:14.900 Isn't it a kind of verbal fetishism?

00:04:18.380 Doesn't it smack of national hysteria?

00:04:21.640 In other words,

00:04:22.320 exactly, for example,

00:04:23.780 what happened around the death of Diana

00:04:25.600 or what the great...

00:04:26.940 Another great historian,

00:04:28.160 even greater than me,

00:04:29.080 what Lord Macaulay described

00:04:31.280 as the nothing more ridiculous

00:04:34.020 than the British public

00:04:35.580 in one of its fits of morality.

00:04:37.580 It was a fit of morality.

00:04:39.300 Well, Dan...

00:04:39.540 We should...

00:04:40.420 Come on.

00:04:41.200 We should...

00:04:41.540 You asked...

00:04:42.240 Right.

00:04:42.660 Absolutely.

00:04:42.920 Why am I treating it relatively lightly?

00:04:45.440 No, no, no.

00:04:45.860 Hold on.

00:04:46.240 Hold on.

00:04:46.580 I'm not saying I disagree with you.

00:04:48.480 You know my view on this woke stuff

00:04:49.960 and all of that.

00:04:50.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:50.920 And you know how much we like

00:04:52.220 and respect you on the show.

00:04:53.160 Yeah.

00:04:53.900 You are one of our favourite guests

00:04:55.460 of all time.

00:04:56.260 No question about that.

00:04:57.400 The point I would make to you

00:04:58.880 is I don't think people were concerned

00:05:00.560 about the one word.

00:05:02.720 What a lot of people said at the time,

00:05:04.380 including people we respect also,

00:05:06.540 people like Catherine Burble-Sink,

00:05:08.000 who we had on the show,

00:05:08.840 that this wasn't the first time

00:05:10.480 you'd had a slip of the tongue

00:05:11.780 in relation to race.

00:05:13.520 And so their perception was,

00:05:15.460 let me just finish this.

00:05:16.720 Their perception was

00:05:17.760 that it wasn't a individual instance

00:05:20.780 of a mistake,

00:05:21.600 which we all make,

00:05:22.500 all of us.

00:05:22.880 You alluded to,

00:05:23.520 of course,

00:05:23.980 all of us make slip-ups,

00:05:25.140 but rather that it was a pattern

00:05:26.300 of behaviour

00:05:26.800 that was reflective of an attitude

00:05:28.720 towards race.

00:05:30.580 That was the point that people made.

00:05:31.980 Personally,

00:05:32.440 I didn't necessarily agree with that,

00:05:33.920 but that was the point

00:05:34.660 that people made.

00:05:35.340 So what do you say to them?

00:05:37.380 I would love to see

00:05:39.040 what they ever...

00:05:40.040 You see, again,

00:05:40.700 I'm sorry,

00:05:41.180 I'm really boring.

00:05:42.020 I believe in evidence.

00:05:44.260 I made a comment

00:05:45.480 at the time

00:05:46.100 of the race riots

00:05:47.040 in 2011,

00:05:48.600 which said,

00:05:49.520 something that seemed to me

00:05:50.700 to be absolutely true,

00:05:52.140 but was regarded

00:05:52.940 as being outrageous,

00:05:54.120 that these were black riots,

00:05:56.480 which they were.

00:05:57.940 The evidence

00:05:58.360 is absolutely overwhelming.

00:06:00.360 If you actually look

00:06:01.400 at the maps of the riots,

00:06:03.940 it was nothing to do

00:06:05.060 directly with impoverishment.

00:06:06.960 there were areas

00:06:08.040 that were very much

00:06:08.900 more impoverished

00:06:09.760 that didn't riot.

00:06:11.500 OK?

00:06:11.980 It was to do

00:06:12.760 with a particular attitude.

00:06:14.040 In other words,

00:06:14.780 a form of imitation

00:06:16.020 of urban behaviour

00:06:17.720 that has been imported

00:06:19.040 from America.

00:06:20.280 The riots,

00:06:20.920 you know,

00:06:21.240 shopping with violence,

00:06:22.740 were very,

00:06:23.620 very similar

00:06:24.240 to the pattern

00:06:24.920 that we saw

00:06:25.680 after Floyd's death.

00:06:27.700 And it's a particular

00:06:29.060 imported pattern

00:06:30.240 of behaviour,

00:06:31.240 which is not,

00:06:32.320 I think,

00:06:32.820 one that we were used to

00:06:34.480 in Britain.

00:06:35.460 I think it's deeply

00:06:36.620 unfortunate.

00:06:37.860 This is nothing,

00:06:38.640 this is not,

00:06:39.260 so I am not criticising race.

00:06:42.060 I am criticising

00:06:43.420 behavioural patterns.

00:06:45.280 I'm not criticising

00:06:46.420 skin colour.

00:06:48.200 I'm criticising things

00:06:50.240 that people decide

00:06:51.700 to do, right?

00:06:54.080 In the same way,

00:06:55.400 why was I agitated

00:06:56.920 on the question

00:06:57.900 of whether it's genocide

00:06:59.600 or not?

00:07:00.160 Why does that,

00:07:01.060 why does that question

00:07:02.680 come up?

00:07:03.380 It comes up

00:07:04.080 because I'm afraid

00:07:05.760 the whole question

00:07:06.900 of slavery,

00:07:08.220 monstrous though it is,

00:07:09.660 is deliberately being

00:07:10.780 weaponised

00:07:11.700 in a specific

00:07:12.800 cultural context,

00:07:14.380 which is why

00:07:15.020 what I was talking

00:07:16.460 about at the beginning,

00:07:17.640 why what is the most

00:07:18.560 monstrous aspect

00:07:20.080 of the slave trade

00:07:21.280 is deliberately ignored

00:07:22.940 because it does not

00:07:24.300 attack the West.

00:07:26.020 The reason, again,

00:07:27.320 that there's a talk

00:07:28.460 about slavery as genocide,

00:07:30.380 you're a Jew.

00:07:31.560 Unfortunately,

00:07:32.120 there's a great problem

00:07:34.180 with Jews.

00:07:35.180 You are absolutely...

00:07:35.780 We're going to clip that.

00:07:37.800 I'm going to just

00:07:38.280 to let you know.

00:07:40.480 David Starkey,

00:07:41.580 there is a big problem

00:07:42.580 with Jews.

00:07:43.340 There is a big problem

00:07:45.340 with Jews,

00:07:45.940 which is you are

00:07:47.060 Mope,

00:07:47.740 the most oppressed

00:07:49.280 people ever.

00:07:50.420 And that is a very

00:07:51.980 jealously guarded status.

00:07:54.420 And it's also one

00:07:55.220 that people are

00:07:55.840 very jealous about.

00:07:57.540 Black activists,

00:07:58.700 including Palestinian activists,

00:08:00.840 are outraged

00:08:01.800 at the fact

00:08:02.460 that the genocide

00:08:03.420 gives you this kind

00:08:04.660 of moral...

00:08:05.860 It is a testament

00:08:07.740 to a Sikh society

00:08:08.980 that the genocide

00:08:10.380 becomes a kind

00:08:11.320 of badge of pride,

00:08:12.660 weirdly and bizarrely.

00:08:14.200 And this is why

00:08:15.280 there is the attempt

00:08:16.200 at portraying slavery

00:08:17.680 in exactly this fashion

00:08:19.460 so that you can say

00:08:20.800 the whole of the West

00:08:21.960 is guilty of pseudo-Nazism.

00:08:24.840 Haven't you observed

00:08:25.760 how the left,

00:08:26.880 I think we should start

00:08:28.040 calling the far left,

00:08:29.760 that is everybody,

00:08:30.900 even faintly to the left

00:08:32.120 of Keir Starmer,

00:08:33.480 is far left.

00:08:34.760 Look how far

00:08:35.620 to the left he is.

00:08:36.620 Have you not noticed

00:08:37.700 how they're all

00:08:38.700 throwing around

00:08:39.580 the term Nazi,

00:08:41.420 the term fascist?

00:08:42.780 Have you thought

00:08:43.860 of the disgrace,

00:08:45.240 for example,

00:08:45.980 of talking about

00:08:47.360 the person

00:08:47.900 that I appeared with

00:08:48.780 last night,

00:08:49.820 Nigel Farage,

00:08:50.860 as a Nazi or a fascist?

00:08:53.440 What is the contempt

00:08:54.760 that that shows

00:08:56.040 for the victims

00:08:57.060 of the real Nazis

00:08:58.420 and the real fascists?

00:09:00.560 That you, again,

00:09:02.100 you elide

00:09:02.980 the kind of language

00:09:04.520 that somebody

00:09:05.360 like Farage uses

00:09:06.700 with the concentration camps

00:09:09.500 and the gas chambers.

00:09:10.940 This is what I find

00:09:12.300 deeply, deeply shocking,

00:09:15.380 scandalous,

00:09:16.260 and disgraceful,

00:09:17.700 that we are using these,

00:09:19.300 that we're eliding

00:09:20.160 these slips of tongue

00:09:22.100 with monstrous behaviours

00:09:25.240 and acts.

00:09:26.140 We've got to separate

00:09:27.400 words from action.

00:09:29.400 This is the classic position

00:09:31.540 in America

00:09:32.400 with the First Amendment

00:09:33.660 and all the rest of it,

00:09:34.960 that there is

00:09:36.120 absolute clear distinction

00:09:38.720 between words as words

00:09:40.800 and words that invoke action.

00:09:42.840 The famous remark,

00:09:44.500 the one thing you can't say

00:09:45.640 under freedom of speech

00:09:46.600 is fire in a theatre

00:09:48.100 because it provokes behaviour.

00:09:50.840 But it's a really good point,

00:09:52.800 David,

00:09:52.980 that you've just made.

00:09:54.080 And we were talking before

00:09:55.280 how we've conflated

00:09:56.980 words with violence

00:09:58.720 and words with action.

00:10:00.580 But words have power

00:10:01.800 and I would argue to you

00:10:03.080 that what those words

00:10:04.180 are being used,

00:10:04.880 Nazi,

00:10:05.760 racist,

00:10:06.700 fascist,

00:10:07.500 anti-vaxxer now,

00:10:08.720 what they're doing

00:10:10.020 is they're using words

00:10:11.280 in order to shut down

00:10:12.420 a discussion.

00:10:13.160 Of course.

00:10:13.680 In order to bludgeon somebody

00:10:15.120 into not speaking

00:10:17.200 their opinion.

00:10:18.360 As indeed,

00:10:19.320 a previous authority

00:10:20.360 that was very keen

00:10:21.360 on words

00:10:22.100 and policing words,

00:10:23.680 the whole business

00:10:24.360 of the medieval church

00:10:26.040 and the use of heresy

00:10:27.280 and heresy trials

00:10:28.660 to shut people up.

00:10:30.260 I mean,

00:10:30.560 it's fascinating again,

00:10:32.080 putting all these things together.

00:10:34.560 You remember

00:10:35.080 the great fuss

00:10:36.120 that's being made

00:10:36.880 about the statue

00:10:37.680 of Cecil Rhodes.

00:10:38.720 on the front

00:10:39.680 of Oriel College

00:10:40.540 at Oxford.

00:10:41.480 One of the other statues

00:10:42.580 there that nobody

00:10:43.440 actually complains about

00:10:44.700 is a man called

00:10:45.560 Archbishop Arundel

00:10:46.780 who is an early fellow

00:10:48.020 of the college.

00:10:48.940 He is the man

00:10:49.620 who very nearly

00:10:50.620 destroys the University

00:10:52.420 of Oxford

00:10:53.020 in about 1400

00:10:54.240 when he uses

00:10:55.740 his power

00:10:57.100 over the Church

00:10:57.820 of England

00:10:58.240 to issue

00:10:58.920 Arundel's constitutions

00:11:01.160 and they literally

00:11:02.460 shut down

00:11:03.440 intellectual debate

00:11:04.660 in England

00:11:05.260 for a century.

00:11:06.680 You nearly

00:11:07.940 as a Cambridge man

00:11:09.680 I used to be quite proud

00:11:10.940 of being a Cambridge man

00:11:12.040 but a long time ago

00:11:13.740 well 18 months ago

00:11:15.060 that was a vast

00:11:15.920 vast, vast period

00:11:17.460 that we were talking

00:11:18.500 about before

00:11:19.160 and what Arundel did

00:11:21.100 to the University

00:11:21.860 of Oxford

00:11:22.420 gave Cambridge

00:11:24.040 its chance.

00:11:25.840 Does anybody

00:11:26.860 notice this?

00:11:28.140 Does anybody

00:11:28.660 care about it?

00:11:29.760 Because the universities

00:11:31.920 public life in general

00:11:34.260 our companies

00:11:35.160 have lost any notion

00:11:36.700 of the value

00:11:37.640 of freedom of speech.

00:11:39.400 It seems to me

00:11:40.100 to be an absolute value.

00:11:42.240 If you want to look

00:11:43.220 at what distinguishes us

00:11:45.260 what distinguishes

00:11:46.400 the West

00:11:47.100 from the rest

00:11:48.140 it is simply

00:11:49.120 freedom.

00:11:50.840 As we're now

00:11:51.940 discovering with China

00:11:53.140 you can actually

00:11:53.960 have prosperity

00:11:54.820 without freedom.

00:11:57.380 Our only hope

00:11:58.440 is that freedom

00:11:59.300 which will encourage

00:12:00.960 the fermentation

00:12:01.740 of ideas

00:12:02.780 the development

00:12:03.660 of new technologies

00:12:04.760 and so on

00:12:05.380 if I'm afraid

00:12:06.260 you can have

00:12:07.200 new ideas

00:12:08.660 without freedom

00:12:09.620 we're lost.

00:12:11.740 We're lost.

00:12:14.120 I mean it's

00:12:15.020 an excellent point.

00:12:16.140 The problem is

00:12:16.880 as well

00:12:17.180 it's not just

00:12:17.980 that we're losing

00:12:18.860 freedom of speech

00:12:20.140 we're also losing

00:12:22.400 the ability

00:12:22.960 to fight for it.

00:12:23.900 People don't want

00:12:24.720 to seem to fight

00:12:25.480 for things.

00:12:25.880 There's cowardice.

00:12:26.720 cowardice

00:12:28.400 again

00:12:28.780 in the moment

00:12:31.740 I really do think

00:12:32.620 we are in a form

00:12:33.360 of war

00:12:33.860 and some people

00:12:35.620 can cope with war

00:12:36.540 and some people

00:12:37.160 can't.

00:12:38.520 Some people

00:12:39.060 can put their heads

00:12:39.880 above the parapet

00:12:40.780 and some people

00:12:41.440 can't.

00:12:43.480 I refuse

00:12:45.180 to bow the neck.

00:12:47.420 I refuse

00:12:47.840 to take the knee.

00:12:49.500 I refuse

00:12:49.980 to submit

00:12:50.820 my mind

00:12:51.940 to anybody.

00:12:52.780 I was very fortunate.

00:12:54.220 I come from

00:12:55.000 a long line

00:12:55.820 of dissenters

00:12:56.720 I mean

00:12:56.980 literal

00:12:57.360 religious

00:12:58.000 dissent.

00:12:59.580 I also had

00:13:00.080 a mother

00:13:00.400 despite all

00:13:02.100 the problems

00:13:02.620 that we later

00:13:03.220 had over my

00:13:04.000 sexuality

00:13:04.460 who gave me

00:13:05.840 an iron

00:13:06.520 self-confidence

00:13:07.500 and I've always

00:13:09.360 taken a pride

00:13:10.160 in that.

00:13:11.600 Again

00:13:12.120 I was brought

00:13:14.600 up in

00:13:15.260 a strange

00:13:16.360 religious

00:13:16.740 denomination

00:13:17.480 the Society

00:13:18.440 of Friends

00:13:19.020 Quakers

00:13:19.540 where there was

00:13:20.680 this

00:13:21.060 in theory

00:13:22.260 emphasis

00:13:23.140 on plain

00:13:23.920 speaking

00:13:24.540 plain

00:13:25.640 unvarnished

00:13:26.400 speech.

00:13:28.180 But why

00:13:29.040 do you think

00:13:29.520 we're at war?

00:13:30.260 Because that's

00:13:30.740 a very bold

00:13:31.840 statement.

00:13:32.500 And also

00:13:32.800 a lot of

00:13:33.140 stupid people

00:13:33.760 will

00:13:34.060 you know

00:13:34.680 people don't

00:13:35.200 understand

00:13:35.540 metaphors

00:13:36.080 anymore

00:13:36.360 they choose

00:13:36.960 not to.

00:13:37.520 So what do

00:13:38.120 you mean

00:13:38.360 when you

00:13:38.680 say we're

00:13:39.040 at war?

00:13:40.740 I think

00:13:41.440 it is the

00:13:42.400 first time

00:13:43.340 right

00:13:43.960 let's look

00:13:44.740 at this

00:13:45.120 and try

00:13:46.480 and again

00:13:47.220 pull back

00:13:48.100 use karma

00:13:49.100 language

00:13:49.720 non-metaphorical

00:13:51.400 language.

00:13:51.960 When I grew

00:13:52.720 up

00:13:53.040 the West

00:13:54.080 was in

00:13:54.660 a thing

00:13:54.980 that was

00:13:55.380 well

00:13:55.760 I was born

00:13:56.640 at the

00:13:56.940 end of

00:13:57.440 a real

00:13:57.780 war.

00:13:58.640 I was born

00:13:59.100 in 1945

00:14:00.340 at the

00:14:01.300 very end

00:14:02.000 of the

00:14:02.540 First World

00:14:03.000 War.

00:14:03.600 My mother

00:14:03.980 said that

00:14:04.460 I was the

00:14:04.860 only person

00:14:05.520 in Kendall

00:14:06.000 who actually

00:14:06.620 slept through

00:14:07.180 VE day.

00:14:09.500 A contented

00:14:10.760 baby.

00:14:11.500 Then of course

00:14:12.280 I grew up

00:14:13.360 with the

00:14:13.820 Cold War

00:14:14.360 which was

00:14:17.240 also of course

00:14:17.900 the great

00:14:18.280 nuclear standoff.

00:14:19.700 We knew

00:14:20.280 there was a

00:14:21.200 power

00:14:21.500 those of us

00:14:22.360 who were

00:14:22.520 at all

00:14:22.780 intelligent

00:14:23.340 that wished

00:14:24.180 to destroy

00:14:24.780 us.

00:14:25.480 That had

00:14:25.840 opposed

00:14:26.460 values

00:14:27.080 to us.

00:14:27.780 The Soviet

00:14:28.240 Union.

00:14:29.000 The Soviet

00:14:29.600 Union

00:14:30.060 is seen

00:14:30.940 off.

00:14:31.300 It collapses

00:14:31.860 under its

00:14:32.400 own

00:14:32.600 contradictions.

00:14:33.700 The absurdities

00:14:34.560 of communism.

00:14:35.380 All of this

00:14:36.080 stuff.

00:14:36.460 Oh we've

00:14:36.840 never tried

00:14:37.440 communism.

00:14:38.320 Has any

00:14:38.920 doctrine

00:14:39.620 ever been

00:14:40.360 more rigorously

00:14:41.280 pursued at a

00:14:42.380 greater cost

00:14:43.240 of human

00:14:43.740 life that

00:14:44.640 dwarfs even

00:14:45.420 the horrors

00:14:45.940 of Nazism?

00:14:46.940 Anyway

00:14:47.220 communism

00:14:48.040 collapses.

00:14:49.240 And then

00:14:49.540 at which

00:14:49.960 point there

00:14:50.840 was this

00:14:51.200 absurd man

00:14:52.140 with the

00:14:52.420 wondrous name

00:14:53.080 Fukuyama came

00:14:54.120 along and

00:14:54.880 talked about

00:14:55.480 the inevitable

00:14:56.100 triumph of the

00:14:57.060 West and

00:14:57.560 liberal capitalism

00:14:58.560 and whatever.

00:14:59.460 But the seeds

00:15:00.460 of something

00:15:01.040 different had

00:15:01.860 been so.

00:15:03.020 This was an

00:15:04.280 internal enemy.

00:15:06.580 An attack on

00:15:07.920 the absolute

00:15:08.680 fundamentals of

00:15:10.020 Western society.

00:15:11.340 We've really got

00:15:12.400 to understand

00:15:13.380 this.

00:15:14.120 This is what

00:15:14.800 everybody jokes

00:15:16.200 or we sort

00:15:17.140 of joke

00:15:17.560 about woke

00:15:18.200 because it

00:15:18.640 is so

00:15:19.280 preposterous

00:15:20.340 and it's

00:15:20.940 so stupid.

00:15:22.000 I mean the

00:15:22.400 idea that

00:15:23.480 merely by

00:15:24.020 saying I

00:15:24.660 want to be

00:15:25.220 a woman

00:15:25.600 I am a

00:15:26.200 woman.

00:15:26.780 This is

00:15:27.420 again it's

00:15:28.160 religious.

00:15:29.500 It literally

00:15:30.260 is religious.

00:15:31.560 It is the

00:15:32.240 equivalent of

00:15:32.780 the priest

00:15:33.200 saying hoces

00:15:33.880 corpus.

00:15:34.780 The word

00:15:35.440 transubstantiation

00:15:36.560 and the word

00:15:37.100 transsexual is

00:15:38.840 the same

00:15:39.360 word.

00:15:40.200 You're trying

00:15:40.860 to change

00:15:41.820 one thing

00:15:42.900 into another

00:15:43.800 merely by

00:15:44.740 words.

00:15:45.160 It's

00:15:45.300 incantatory.

00:15:46.460 It's magic.

00:15:47.340 Now this

00:15:48.140 reversion to

00:15:50.000 religious

00:15:50.500 primitivism,

00:15:51.920 this giving

00:15:52.900 language

00:15:54.080 priority over

00:15:55.340 fact,

00:15:56.340 feeling

00:15:56.880 priority over

00:15:57.840 fact,

00:15:58.520 it's a

00:15:59.200 deliberate

00:15:59.740 reaction against

00:16:01.420 modernity,

00:16:02.860 against progress,

00:16:04.400 against science,

00:16:05.820 against everything

00:16:06.660 that has made

00:16:07.560 our lives

00:16:08.200 better,

00:16:09.420 longer,

00:16:10.240 healthier,

00:16:11.040 more comfortable

00:16:11.720 than the

00:16:12.360 lives of

00:16:12.820 any human

00:16:13.540 freer,

00:16:14.460 than the

00:16:14.800 lives of

00:16:15.200 any human

00:16:15.860 beings before.

00:16:17.100 It is

00:16:18.000 really an

00:16:18.720 attempt at

00:16:19.340 destroying

00:16:19.900 everything and

00:16:20.840 it's purely

00:16:21.740 destructive.

00:16:22.980 At least

00:16:23.400 communism

00:16:24.040 thought it

00:16:24.920 had an

00:16:25.300 alternative.

00:16:26.500 This has

00:16:26.920 no alternative.

00:16:30.000 Nobody has

00:16:30.840 ever,

00:16:31.280 these extraordinary

00:16:32.540 people like

00:16:33.580 Professor,

00:16:34.760 whatever you

00:16:35.240 call it,

00:16:35.620 Bhopal at

00:16:36.640 the college

00:16:37.060 opposite,

00:16:37.620 my former

00:16:38.700 college at

00:16:39.500 Cambridge,

00:16:40.300 at Churchill

00:16:41.560 College,

00:16:42.540 that she

00:16:43.840 wants to

00:16:44.280 see the

00:16:44.620 disappearance

00:16:45.240 of whiteness.

00:16:46.860 Now,

00:16:47.320 if that's

00:16:47.760 not an

00:16:48.040 invocation

00:16:48.540 to genocide,

00:16:49.540 I really

00:16:49.820 don't know

00:16:50.200 what is.

00:16:51.100 I mean,

00:16:51.420 destroy

00:16:52.460 white values.

00:16:54.660 People on

00:16:55.600 BBC television,

00:16:56.880 mainstream

00:16:57.280 television,

00:16:58.500 the

00:16:58.620 olusogas of

00:16:59.620 this world

00:17:00.120 want apparently

00:17:01.320 to destroy

00:17:02.040 whiteness.

00:17:03.020 Now,

00:17:03.300 what does

00:17:03.800 that actually

00:17:04.640 mean?

00:17:05.880 It means,

00:17:07.060 if you're

00:17:07.440 being polite,

00:17:08.460 they want to

00:17:08.960 destroy a

00:17:09.580 culture.

00:17:10.520 Well,

00:17:10.640 I think

00:17:10.860 that's

00:17:11.100 called

00:17:11.360 cultural

00:17:11.800 genocide.

00:17:13.420 But how

00:17:13.780 do you

00:17:14.020 destroy a

00:17:14.540 culture

00:17:14.820 without

00:17:15.160 destroying

00:17:15.680 people

00:17:16.200 unless you

00:17:16.860 put them

00:17:17.180 in a

00:17:17.380 concentration

00:17:18.000 camp?

00:17:19.260 Nobody

00:17:19.780 bothers to

00:17:20.520 interrogate

00:17:21.240 this language.

00:17:22.540 Nobody

00:17:22.820 puts them

00:17:23.380 on the

00:17:23.680 spot.

00:17:24.260 All

00:17:24.520 these big

00:17:25.060 companies

00:17:25.480 politely

00:17:26.060 nod their

00:17:26.680 head.

00:17:26.980 The BBC

00:17:27.460 nods its

00:17:28.160 head.

00:17:28.600 The

00:17:28.720 Metropolitan

00:17:29.200 Police

00:17:29.760 nod its

00:17:30.180 head.

00:17:30.520 Even

00:17:30.720 for God's

00:17:31.280 sake,

00:17:31.560 Covent Garden

00:17:32.320 is nodding

00:17:33.260 its head.

00:17:34.760 This is

00:17:37.400 appeasement.

00:17:38.640 This is

00:17:39.020 the

00:17:39.140 appeasement

00:17:39.680 stage before

00:17:40.560 war.

00:17:41.580 I suppose

00:17:41.940 I'm now

00:17:42.360 identifying

00:17:42.860 myself as

00:17:43.520 a new

00:17:43.780 intellectual

00:17:44.260 with

00:17:45.720 characteristic

00:17:46.380 modesties,

00:17:47.160 the new

00:17:47.420 intellectual

00:17:47.920 Churchill.

00:17:48.840 I would

00:17:49.300 push back

00:17:49.900 on the

00:17:50.420 saying that

00:17:51.240 they don't

00:17:51.680 want anything.

00:17:52.280 To me,

00:17:52.540 these people

00:17:52.920 are utopians,

00:17:53.840 just in a

00:17:54.800 way,

00:17:55.160 as more

00:17:55.720 misguided

00:17:56.340 people.

00:17:57.480 Yeah,

00:17:57.680 but what

00:17:58.840 utopians?

00:17:59.480 Right,

00:17:59.740 okay,

00:18:00.060 Francis,

00:18:00.500 I'll

00:18:00.800 challenge you.

00:18:01.780 Describe the

00:18:02.580 utopia they

00:18:03.280 want.

00:18:03.520 Okay,

00:18:03.940 they want

00:18:04.360 a utopia

00:18:05.080 where trans

00:18:06.960 women are

00:18:07.460 women,

00:18:07.840 everybody lives

00:18:08.760 free from

00:18:09.640 the oppressive

00:18:10.640 patriarchal

00:18:11.600 structures.

00:18:12.020 I'm not

00:18:12.240 saying I

00:18:12.540 believe in

00:18:12.880 it,

00:18:13.080 I'm just

00:18:13.420 putting forward

00:18:13.760 the argument

00:18:14.140 where racism

00:18:15.280 isn't a

00:18:15.820 problem,

00:18:16.140 where white

00:18:16.560 supremacy

00:18:17.000 isn't a

00:18:17.520 problem,

00:18:18.120 where people

00:18:18.860 are elevated,

00:18:21.320 etc.

00:18:21.900 I think

00:18:22.820 more succinctly

00:18:24.740 it's they

00:18:25.440 want the end

00:18:25.900 of the

00:18:26.140 discriminates.

00:18:27.400 They want

00:18:28.400 everyone to

00:18:29.720 be equal

00:18:30.160 and for

00:18:30.560 there to

00:18:30.800 be no

00:18:31.060 discriminates.

00:18:31.380 Now,

00:18:31.940 look,

00:18:32.320 we're more

00:18:33.040 intelligent

00:18:33.440 than

00:18:33.640 I

00:18:33.760 understand

00:18:34.180 those things

00:18:34.740 aren't always

00:18:35.060 possible,

00:18:35.340 but that's

00:18:36.200 what they

00:18:36.420 want.

00:18:36.660 No

00:18:36.800 discrimination,

00:18:37.600 everybody's

00:18:38.000 equal.

00:18:38.680 Well,

00:18:38.940 I've got

00:18:39.320 no problem

00:18:39.760 with that,

00:18:40.300 but they

00:18:40.780 want

00:18:41.020 discrimination.

00:18:41.980 They want

00:18:42.360 discrimination

00:18:42.820 against whites.

00:18:43.820 they want

00:18:44.500 preferential

00:18:45.060 treatment for

00:18:45.760 people of

00:18:46.160 different skin

00:18:46.780 pigmentation.

00:18:47.960 Stormzy

00:18:48.480 sponsored

00:18:49.300 outrageously

00:18:50.620 scholarships

00:18:51.400 that came

00:18:52.020 between their

00:18:52.420 own given

00:18:52.900 to people

00:18:53.340 with black

00:18:53.960 skins.

00:18:54.880 Now,

00:18:55.220 that is

00:18:56.720 what Martin

00:18:58.820 Luther King

00:18:59.560 fought against

00:19:00.560 with his

00:19:00.980 life,

00:19:01.960 isn't it?

00:19:04.020 Moving on

00:19:04.800 slightly,

00:19:05.580 one of the

00:19:06.160 things you

00:19:06.600 pioneered in

00:19:07.520 many ways,

00:19:07.940 we had Tim

00:19:08.280 Stanley,

00:19:08.740 the historian,

00:19:09.220 in here a

00:19:09.880 few weeks

00:19:10.240 ago,

00:19:10.500 and he

00:19:10.800 was talking

00:19:11.400 about one

00:19:12.500 of the

00:19:12.720 transformations

00:19:13.240 in our

00:19:13.920 understanding

00:19:14.600 of history

00:19:15.120 that you

00:19:15.540 were a

00:19:16.340 huge leader

00:19:17.040 in was to

00:19:18.240 re-emphasize

00:19:19.000 the role

00:19:19.360 of the

00:19:19.680 individual,

00:19:20.520 the huge

00:19:21.120 character,

00:19:21.800 the huge

00:19:22.160 personality,

00:19:23.520 and we

00:19:24.000 are obviously

00:19:24.700 operating right

00:19:26.040 now in

00:19:27.120 extraordinary

00:19:27.700 times by

00:19:28.540 any historical

00:19:29.320 period, I

00:19:29.920 think it's

00:19:30.340 fair to say,

00:19:31.060 with COVID,

00:19:31.900 with lockdown,

00:19:32.560 with all of

00:19:32.920 the cultural

00:19:33.360 stuff that's

00:19:33.880 going on.

00:19:35.520 Who are the

00:19:36.500 personalities of

00:19:37.460 today who are

00:19:38.440 going to

00:19:38.920 shape our

00:19:40.020 historical

00:19:40.640 perspective on

00:19:41.480 this period of

00:19:42.280 time, do you

00:19:42.700 think?

00:19:42.980 And what is

00:19:43.800 the process

00:19:44.280 that's happening

00:19:44.760 now?

00:19:46.040 Very difficult

00:19:46.820 to say.

00:19:47.600 I mean,

00:19:47.820 there's been a

00:19:48.980 kind of

00:19:50.020 abdication,

00:19:51.420 hasn't there?

00:19:52.360 I mean,

00:19:52.660 there are

00:19:53.100 clearly big

00:19:53.880 personalities,

00:19:54.800 something like

00:19:55.160 Boris Johnson,

00:19:56.700 but you

00:19:57.320 remember that

00:19:58.240 wonderful

00:19:59.160 phrase of

00:20:00.780 E.E.

00:20:01.120 Cummings,

00:20:01.880 that a

00:20:03.000 politician is

00:20:04.100 a cushion

00:20:04.480 upon which

00:20:05.020 everything is

00:20:05.580 sat but a

00:20:06.180 man.

00:20:07.300 And Boris

00:20:08.900 takes whatever

00:20:09.900 shape.

00:20:11.820 I mean,

00:20:12.140 it's complete

00:20:13.180 shape-shifting.

00:20:14.820 It is a

00:20:15.600 kind of

00:20:16.000 inflatable,

00:20:17.400 squidgy,

00:20:18.260 funny cushion,

00:20:19.580 a kind of

00:20:20.340 perpetually

00:20:21.600 shifting clown

00:20:22.800 mask,

00:20:23.840 plastic.

00:20:28.460 There are

00:20:29.520 individuals,

00:20:32.960 does anybody?

00:20:34.240 I'm falling

00:20:41.400 silent because

00:20:42.600 a handful of us

00:20:44.800 I think have

00:20:45.520 some sort of

00:20:46.560 grasp,

00:20:47.200 but we're mere

00:20:48.240 intellectuals.

00:20:49.400 We are little

00:20:51.080 people on the

00:20:51.940 margin of things.

00:20:53.120 Is there any

00:20:54.340 big figure,

00:20:56.540 any statesman,

00:20:58.780 any church

00:21:00.960 leader?

00:21:01.600 I mean,

00:21:01.880 all the

00:21:02.440 things you

00:21:03.960 used to

00:21:04.800 look to.

00:21:05.420 I mean,

00:21:05.560 look at

00:21:05.880 Archbishop

00:21:06.540 Welby,

00:21:08.040 that absolutely

00:21:09.380 vacuous

00:21:10.280 windbag,

00:21:11.680 his mouth

00:21:12.360 stuffed with

00:21:14.020 dreary

00:21:14.800 business speak.

00:21:16.380 I mean,

00:21:16.660 can there be a

00:21:17.580 clearer

00:21:18.020 illustration of

00:21:19.480 the complete

00:21:20.500 loss of what

00:21:21.600 was one of

00:21:23.100 the intellectual

00:21:24.600 and,

00:21:27.000 the word,

00:21:27.840 let's utter it,

00:21:28.700 spiritual centres

00:21:29.840 than the

00:21:30.460 performers that

00:21:31.180 he put up

00:21:31.780 at the

00:21:32.000 beginning of

00:21:32.480 lockdown,

00:21:33.400 at the

00:21:33.720 Easter,

00:21:35.040 when,

00:21:35.640 as it were,

00:21:36.020 he celebrated

00:21:36.760 the closure

00:21:37.360 of churches

00:21:38.080 by celebrating

00:21:39.660 Holy Communion

00:21:40.560 in front of

00:21:41.100 a kitchen

00:21:41.580 cabinet?

00:21:44.040 Can there

00:21:44.760 be a more

00:21:45.400 appropriate

00:21:46.680 metaphor for

00:21:48.480 using that

00:21:49.600 word that I

00:21:50.160 shouldn't,

00:21:51.180 for that

00:21:52.140 loss of

00:21:53.500 meaning,

00:21:54.380 of seriousness?

00:21:55.300 Because that's

00:21:58.380 what's happened,

00:21:59.140 isn't it?

00:22:00.560 Maybe it's just

00:22:01.540 that we're too

00:22:02.000 comfortable,

00:22:03.540 that if you

00:22:05.080 look at the

00:22:06.740 seriousness of

00:22:07.900 culture in the

00:22:09.000 Soviet Union,

00:22:10.440 where the

00:22:12.280 persistence of

00:22:13.140 serious classical

00:22:13.980 music,

00:22:15.320 the seriousness

00:22:16.900 with which even

00:22:17.880 the communist

00:22:18.420 state took

00:22:19.800 scholarship and

00:22:20.660 learning,

00:22:21.100 those terrible

00:22:23.640 pressures that

00:22:24.820 were brought to

00:22:25.540 bear by

00:22:26.020 totalitarianism,

00:22:27.540 and our

00:22:28.360 flaccid,

00:22:30.020 formless,

00:22:31.060 self-indulgent

00:22:32.200 consumerism.

00:22:33.980 I mean,

00:22:34.140 I'm as guilty

00:22:34.740 as anybody,

00:22:35.560 I'm a creature

00:22:36.080 of the 60s.

00:22:38.560 In many ways,

00:22:40.000 although I had

00:22:40.540 to fight

00:22:41.020 intellectually,

00:22:42.240 I had to fight

00:22:42.880 through scholarships

00:22:44.480 and all the rest

00:22:45.260 of it,

00:22:45.700 one had

00:22:46.040 extraordinarily

00:22:46.940 easy life,

00:22:48.400 and it was a

00:22:48.880 life of

00:22:49.860 perpetual

00:22:50.860 opening

00:22:51.400 opportunity,

00:22:52.700 there was the

00:22:53.420 whole hedonism

00:22:54.360 of the

00:22:55.440 developing gay

00:22:56.520 lifestyle,

00:22:57.800 there was the

00:22:58.620 pleasure of

00:22:59.200 increasing prosperity,

00:23:00.720 we've had very,

00:23:01.980 very comfortable

00:23:02.900 times.

00:23:03.620 In other words,

00:23:04.060 there is a

00:23:04.580 terrible whiff,

00:23:05.560 isn't there,

00:23:06.860 of the end

00:23:07.940 of Rome,

00:23:09.380 and the thing

00:23:10.280 that's most

00:23:10.760 striking,

00:23:11.400 going to your

00:23:12.020 point about

00:23:13.060 the end of

00:23:13.800 Rome,

00:23:14.360 is how

00:23:15.180 invisible the

00:23:16.640 emperors are,

00:23:17.740 these,

00:23:18.120 you know,

00:23:19.560 the last

00:23:20.360 emperor,

00:23:20.860 Augustulus Romulus,

00:23:23.060 the littlest

00:23:24.620 Augustus,

00:23:25.400 the littlest

00:23:25.980 Romulus,

00:23:26.940 and Honorius,

00:23:29.040 who was without

00:23:29.680 honour,

00:23:30.460 the disappearance

00:23:31.620 of serious

00:23:32.940 thinkers,

00:23:34.020 the lack

00:23:35.300 of proper

00:23:35.840 generals,

00:23:36.700 it's awfully

00:23:37.940 reminiscent.

00:23:39.960 Well,

00:23:40.200 this is what

00:23:40.720 worries me,

00:23:41.280 and I was going

00:23:41.820 to ask you,

00:23:42.300 David,

00:23:42.740 because,

00:23:43.840 you know,

00:23:44.240 we've addressed

00:23:45.700 your controversy,

00:23:47.940 do you think

00:23:48.640 part of the

00:23:49.400 reason that

00:23:50.080 the calibre

00:23:51.220 of thinkers,

00:23:52.420 of politicians,

00:23:53.360 of our leaders,

00:23:54.140 our spiritual

00:23:54.800 leaders,

00:23:56.140 prevents people

00:23:57.280 who are big

00:23:58.740 characters,

00:24:00.120 who speak

00:24:00.880 honestly,

00:24:01.860 sometimes wrongly,

00:24:03.140 sometimes stupidly,

00:24:04.240 as you've said,

00:24:05.120 they take risks,

00:24:06.660 but they're prepared

00:24:07.520 to make a stand-on

00:24:08.380 principle,

00:24:08.880 which is always

00:24:09.380 going to alienate

00:24:10.100 some people,

00:24:11.580 they're prepared

00:24:12.120 to speak their

00:24:12.680 mind,

00:24:12.980 which will always

00:24:13.680 alienate some

00:24:14.260 people,

00:24:14.800 and they're prepared

00:24:15.280 to take a risk,

00:24:15.980 which doesn't always

00:24:16.760 pay off,

00:24:17.220 as we know,

00:24:17.620 but sometimes

00:24:18.140 pays off hugely.

00:24:20.280 We don't want

00:24:21.760 those people anymore

00:24:22.780 as a society.

00:24:23.540 We punish those

00:24:24.540 people.

00:24:25.780 Particularly,

00:24:26.420 I was having a

00:24:27.040 very interesting

00:24:27.600 discussion at the

00:24:28.840 Farad show last

00:24:29.800 night with a couple

00:24:30.480 of trainee teachers,

00:24:32.320 and of course,

00:24:32.980 that is what has

00:24:33.680 exactly happened

00:24:34.640 in teaching,

00:24:35.540 in some ways,

00:24:36.160 for the best

00:24:36.780 reasons.

00:24:37.640 When I was a

00:24:38.660 schoolboy,

00:24:39.300 you had these

00:24:39.840 monstrous,

00:24:40.660 characters in teaching,

00:24:42.220 and completely

00:24:43.200 extraordinary people,

00:24:45.020 clearly half,

00:24:45.780 a significant number

00:24:46.920 of them were perverts,

00:24:48.240 and very often

00:24:50.040 the best teachers.

00:24:51.180 Again,

00:24:51.640 things,

00:24:52.240 truths that we

00:24:53.200 cannot speak,

00:24:54.860 very often.

00:24:56.240 The people,

00:24:56.740 in my experience,

00:24:57.620 of course,

00:24:58.180 because I'm much

00:24:58.760 older,

00:24:59.840 so many of mine

00:25:00.660 were returnees

00:25:01.760 from the war.

00:25:04.280 They'd been

00:25:05.040 shot up,

00:25:06.020 they'd had bad

00:25:06.860 wars,

00:25:07.280 they'd had good

00:25:07.980 wars,

00:25:08.440 they could talk

00:25:09.060 about nothing else

00:25:09.920 they couldn't

00:25:10.400 mention it,

00:25:11.000 but they were

00:25:11.320 extraordinary people.

00:25:13.440 And again,

00:25:14.460 teaching needs

00:25:15.660 extraordinary people.

00:25:17.340 You look at the

00:25:17.980 great writers

00:25:19.440 of children's books,

00:25:20.760 every one of them

00:25:21.540 is semi-mad,

00:25:23.100 and some of them

00:25:23.620 are wholly mad,

00:25:25.280 from Lewis Carroll

00:25:27.480 downwards and onwards.

00:25:29.680 But they have

00:25:30.860 this magical quality

00:25:33.240 that attracts

00:25:34.860 and holds attention.

00:25:36.300 Now,

00:25:36.880 of course,

00:25:37.460 we've replaced

00:25:38.180 charisma with

00:25:39.060 celebrity,

00:25:40.440 which is an

00:25:41.400 utterly empty

00:25:42.360 thing.

00:25:44.320 The famous

00:25:45.120 for being famous.

00:25:47.460 The point

00:25:48.220 that you made

00:25:48.760 just there

00:25:49.180 is so true

00:25:49.780 when it comes

00:25:50.200 to teaching,

00:25:50.740 because when I

00:25:51.160 was a teacher

00:25:51.720 over 12 years,

00:25:53.160 I saw

00:25:53.900 it change.

00:25:55.620 It become

00:25:56.160 a tick-box

00:25:57.220 exercise.

00:25:58.120 It became,

00:25:59.040 did you meet

00:25:59.500 this target,

00:26:00.220 this target,

00:26:00.820 this target?

00:26:01.880 Whilst actually,

00:26:02.640 the people who

00:26:03.260 were brilliant

00:26:03.840 teachers,

00:26:04.420 the mavericks,

00:26:05.180 the free thinkers,

00:26:06.260 the people who

00:26:06.780 could truly engage

00:26:08.080 children and make

00:26:09.480 them wonder and

00:26:10.480 make them want to

00:26:11.320 break out.

00:26:11.900 Or cross.

00:26:12.380 Or cross.

00:26:13.080 Or angry.

00:26:14.220 Yes, but involve

00:26:15.480 them.

00:26:16.020 Involve them.

00:26:16.900 Incite some kind

00:26:17.700 of emotion in them,

00:26:18.560 inspire them.

00:26:19.740 They slowly drifted

00:26:21.180 away or were

00:26:22.220 forced.

00:26:22.760 Or rapidly

00:26:23.540 forced out.

00:26:24.340 Yes, because

00:26:25.540 they didn't fit

00:26:26.780 into a box.

00:26:27.640 And that's what

00:26:28.140 we want in our

00:26:28.880 society.

00:26:29.540 We want boxes.

00:26:30.800 We want a box.

00:26:31.500 You're a gay man,

00:26:32.240 you're here.

00:26:32.940 You're trans,

00:26:33.560 you're here.

00:26:34.240 You're straight,

00:26:34.920 you're here.

00:26:35.260 But life doesn't

00:26:36.080 work like that.

00:26:36.620 Absolutely not.

00:26:37.980 Absolutely not.

00:26:38.860 But it is,

00:26:39.900 we're in an age

00:26:43.040 which is competent

00:26:44.160 at everything

00:26:44.960 and good at

00:26:46.200 nothing.

00:26:48.300 Apart from

00:26:49.680 technological

00:26:50.280 fiddles,

00:26:51.340 you look at

00:26:52.300 now in terms of

00:26:53.360 say the

00:26:53.800 performing arts,

00:26:54.960 we are wonderful.

00:26:56.020 There have never

00:26:56.660 been more

00:26:57.420 competent

00:26:58.300 performances.

00:27:00.180 Who is actually

00:27:01.080 creating anything?

00:27:02.200 look at the

00:27:03.640 mountainous heap

00:27:04.580 of rubbish

00:27:05.220 of modern art.

00:27:07.360 It is absurd.

00:27:10.360 It is simply

00:27:11.240 absurd.

00:27:12.360 Propelled,

00:27:13.020 of course,

00:27:13.400 by people with

00:27:14.100 too much money

00:27:15.120 who treat it

00:27:15.900 simply as an

00:27:16.420 investment opportunity

00:27:17.520 or something to

00:27:18.500 decorate their

00:27:19.200 overpriced loft

00:27:20.280 or bank atrium.

00:27:22.480 So we're in a,

00:27:24.080 never has the word

00:27:25.080 creativity been used

00:27:26.960 more often

00:27:27.760 with less

00:27:28.480 actually being

00:27:29.140 created.

00:27:31.260 And again,

00:27:32.300 there are all

00:27:32.820 sorts of things

00:27:33.360 which are really

00:27:33.800 very uncomfortable

00:27:34.920 to say.

00:27:36.600 We,

00:27:37.120 generally speaking,

00:27:37.820 I think,

00:27:38.160 agree that our

00:27:39.420 politicians are,

00:27:40.580 and to put it

00:27:41.620 as mildly,

00:27:42.400 I know we're

00:27:43.080 now supposed to

00:27:43.660 be nice about

00:27:44.480 politicians

00:27:45.040 following recent

00:27:46.100 events,

00:27:46.580 but they are a

00:27:47.160 pretty uninspiring

00:27:48.620 lot.

00:27:49.500 I mean,

00:27:49.840 when your

00:27:50.780 greatest achievement

00:27:51.940 is to

00:27:54.620 further the

00:27:56.300 affairs of your

00:27:57.000 constituency,

00:27:57.920 well,

00:27:58.200 that's fine,

00:27:59.640 but getting

00:28:01.040 the streets

00:28:01.560 cleaned really

00:28:02.500 isn't the

00:28:03.620 most noble

00:28:04.320 of human acts.

00:28:06.120 There's been,

00:28:07.480 why has that

00:28:08.120 happened?

00:28:08.680 Well,

00:28:08.840 it is,

00:28:09.360 of course,

00:28:10.260 the equivalent

00:28:10.800 of what's

00:28:11.380 happened to

00:28:11.780 teaching.

00:28:12.480 It's the

00:28:12.840 creation of

00:28:13.600 the professional

00:28:14.360 politician class

00:28:15.940 in which these

00:28:16.760 people are

00:28:17.440 paid and

00:28:18.360 salaried.

00:28:19.640 And why

00:28:20.520 has that

00:28:20.900 happened?

00:28:21.560 Because our

00:28:22.180 old governing

00:28:23.060 class has

00:28:23.840 died and

00:28:24.980 been deliberately

00:28:25.680 wiped out.

00:28:26.300 Now,

00:28:26.860 again,

00:28:27.260 there was a

00:28:27.720 huge amount

00:28:28.480 wrong with

00:28:29.280 the gentry

00:28:29.840 and the

00:28:30.100 nobility,

00:28:30.860 but equally,

00:28:31.840 there were

00:28:32.060 these,

00:28:32.680 you look at,

00:28:33.660 Churchill makes

00:28:34.460 this point

00:28:34.940 brilliantly,

00:28:35.440 because of

00:28:35.780 course he was

00:28:36.280 one of these

00:28:36.800 people.

00:28:37.340 He points out

00:28:38.080 that we were

00:28:38.760 better governed

00:28:39.480 when our

00:28:40.460 elite was

00:28:41.400 drawn from

00:28:42.040 600 families

00:28:43.380 than we are

00:28:44.620 when it's

00:28:45.260 drawn from

00:28:45.740 50 million.

00:28:48.560 Well,

00:28:48.880 talk about

00:28:49.280 controversial

00:28:49.780 points.

00:28:50.640 But he's

00:28:52.320 absent.

00:28:53.080 If you look

00:28:53.680 at the

00:28:54.000 caliber of our

00:28:55.120 18th and

00:28:55.800 19th century

00:28:56.600 politicians,

00:28:57.740 if you look

00:28:58.160 at the

00:28:58.420 caliber of

00:28:59.240 our 19th

00:28:59.900 century prime

00:29:00.620 ministers,

00:29:01.160 you look at

00:29:01.640 figures like

00:29:02.340 Peel and

00:29:03.080 Gladstone and

00:29:04.140 Disraeli,

00:29:05.060 they are

00:29:05.660 tigering,

00:29:07.100 their sheer

00:29:07.780 intellectual power,

00:29:09.940 let alone anything

00:29:10.680 else,

00:29:11.580 not Disraeli,

00:29:13.640 but Gladstone

00:29:14.880 and Peel,

00:29:16.000 they are the

00:29:16.820 absolute stars of

00:29:18.180 Oxford,

00:29:18.740 they're highly

00:29:19.460 competent at

00:29:20.340 maths,

00:29:20.640 their brilliant

00:29:21.240 classicists,

00:29:22.620 their sheer,

00:29:24.780 as well as

00:29:25.400 rhetorical power,

00:29:26.840 imagination,

00:29:27.720 you look at

00:29:28.200 what those two

00:29:28.840 men do and

00:29:30.240 you compare it

00:29:31.060 with any

00:29:32.060 politician of

00:29:33.180 the later

00:29:33.560 20th century

00:29:34.540 and they

00:29:35.800 shrivel to a

00:29:37.080 pea.

00:29:38.040 David,

00:29:38.340 there's another

00:29:38.740 thing that you

00:29:39.240 bring up since

00:29:39.820 we're talking

00:29:40.240 about controversial

00:29:40.960 subjects and

00:29:41.520 this is something

00:29:41.980 I think is

00:29:42.500 very important.

00:29:43.100 I told you I

00:29:43.740 wouldn't.

00:29:44.400 You did.

00:29:45.360 I didn't expect

00:29:46.080 you to be

00:29:47.260 faithful to that

00:29:48.100 to be honest.

00:29:48.620 But look,

00:29:50.020 we talk about

00:29:50.800 politicians and

00:29:51.520 you mentioned

00:29:52.240 the murder of

00:29:54.400 Sir David Amos

00:29:55.120 very recently

00:29:55.960 and one of

00:29:56.880 the things I

00:29:57.360 find absolutely

00:29:58.420 mind-boggling

00:29:59.220 and perhaps you

00:30:00.060 can help me

00:30:00.620 with this is

00:30:01.280 he was murdered

00:30:02.880 to all intents

00:30:04.380 and purposes

00:30:04.820 as far as we

00:30:05.420 know by an

00:30:06.080 Islamist extremist

00:30:07.120 who was radicalised

00:30:08.020 online.

00:30:09.320 Or by his

00:30:09.820 father.

00:30:10.560 If you actually

00:30:12.820 look at the

00:30:13.820 evidence of the

00:30:14.840 kind of things

00:30:15.500 that his father

00:30:16.120 was saying,

00:30:17.020 this was clearly

00:30:17.760 a family.

00:30:18.620 That was

00:30:19.240 fully Islamic.

00:30:21.400 Well, you

00:30:22.720 come to the

00:30:23.260 point, to the

00:30:23.760 very point that

00:30:24.300 I was trying

00:30:24.580 to make and

00:30:24.860 I'm not aware

00:30:25.420 of the situation

00:30:26.420 with the father.

00:30:27.040 Perhaps you're

00:30:27.400 better informed.

00:30:27.460 It's been widely

00:30:28.060 reported.

00:30:28.700 Okay.

00:30:29.340 So, in

00:30:31.440 response to

00:30:32.100 that, our

00:30:33.040 politicians'

00:30:34.380 reaction was to

00:30:35.260 talk about

00:30:35.700 online anonymity.

00:30:37.120 Deranged.

00:30:37.980 And I

00:30:39.480 think there's a

00:30:41.240 very nuanced

00:30:41.740 conversation to

00:30:42.620 be had about

00:30:43.200 Islam.

00:30:43.600 We've had

00:30:43.900 former

00:30:44.440 Al-Qaeda

00:30:45.320 agents turned

00:30:46.760 MI6 informers

00:30:48.060 on the show.

00:30:49.000 I understand

00:30:49.660 the complexities

00:30:50.940 of that issue.

00:30:52.040 It's not as

00:30:52.720 simple as some

00:30:53.860 people like to

00:30:54.560 make it out to

00:30:55.180 be.

00:30:55.680 But on the

00:30:56.100 other hand,

00:30:56.840 I think it

00:30:58.720 needs to be

00:30:59.280 dealt with and

00:31:00.020 addressed.

00:31:01.020 And yet, the

00:31:01.480 response from our

00:31:02.180 political class is

00:31:03.300 to ignore it and

00:31:04.760 to talk about

00:31:05.560 something else.

00:31:06.260 I don't understand

00:31:07.880 what's happening

00:31:08.520 there.

00:31:08.740 Do you?

00:31:09.200 It is an

00:31:09.680 elephant in an

00:31:10.440 Arab head

00:31:10.960 dress, isn't

00:31:11.660 it, in the

00:31:14.320 room.

00:31:15.200 I do understand

00:31:16.340 it's too

00:31:17.360 dangerous.

00:31:18.120 They will not

00:31:18.900 grasp it.

00:31:19.660 We talk about

00:31:20.640 no serious, this

00:31:21.520 is the problem,

00:31:22.200 we don't talk

00:31:22.840 about any

00:31:23.560 serious issues

00:31:24.820 in politics.

00:31:26.060 We've been

00:31:26.500 through lockdown

00:31:27.620 without actually

00:31:28.920 raising the

00:31:29.820 fundamental question,

00:31:31.320 what is the

00:31:32.360 weight between

00:31:33.240 saving so many

00:31:34.420 lives of

00:31:35.080 people even

00:31:36.340 older than I

00:31:37.220 am, again

00:31:37.900 shutting down

00:31:38.640 an entire

00:31:39.240 economy and

00:31:40.240 incurring debts

00:31:41.120 on the same

00:31:41.660 scale as the

00:31:42.420 Second World

00:31:42.960 War.

00:31:43.360 And killing

00:31:43.760 people as

00:31:44.300 well.

00:31:44.920 And of

00:31:45.740 course, by

00:31:46.360 gross mismanagement,

00:31:47.580 killing people

00:31:48.080 in care homes.

00:31:49.180 But none of

00:31:49.900 these debates

00:31:50.740 have been had

00:31:52.040 at all.

00:31:53.280 What is the

00:31:54.080 cost of saving

00:31:55.320 a life in

00:31:56.340 terms of the

00:31:56.900 life of other

00:31:57.560 people who

00:31:58.140 live?

00:31:58.700 How much do

00:31:59.600 you spend?

00:32:00.960 Apparently,

00:32:01.760 the average

00:32:02.580 spend on

00:32:04.060 saving a

00:32:05.680 life in

00:32:06.380 COVID is

00:32:07.100 three times

00:32:08.460 what the

00:32:09.000 national health

00:32:09.820 will normally

00:32:10.420 spend.

00:32:10.960 It's called

00:32:11.360 a quality

00:32:12.800 assessed year

00:32:13.540 of life.

00:32:14.420 So everywhere

00:32:15.500 there's a

00:32:16.100 refusal to

00:32:16.920 debate serious

00:32:18.160 things.

00:32:18.880 It's just,

00:32:19.600 it's too

00:32:20.580 difficult.

00:32:21.340 It goes into

00:32:21.920 that too

00:32:22.560 difficult box.

00:32:23.560 Islamism is

00:32:24.340 clearly a

00:32:25.600 fundamental issue,

00:32:26.740 but it is

00:32:28.220 part of a

00:32:28.740 much bigger

00:32:29.260 box of

00:32:29.920 issues,

00:32:30.360 which is

00:32:31.240 how do we

00:32:32.400 live in

00:32:33.320 a complex

00:32:34.240 society,

00:32:36.900 I don't

00:32:37.220 want to use

00:32:37.560 it,

00:32:37.740 well I have

00:32:38.140 to use the

00:32:38.520 word multicultural,

00:32:39.560 in which there

00:32:40.000 are lots of

00:32:40.520 different cultures

00:32:41.420 residing together.

00:32:42.880 It seems to me

00:32:43.700 there are two

00:32:44.520 ways you can

00:32:45.240 try to do it.

00:32:46.160 One is what

00:32:46.960 you were talking

00:32:47.660 about with

00:32:48.260 this vision

00:32:48.900 of the woke,

00:32:50.400 in which all

00:32:51.620 cultures of

00:32:52.380 equal values,

00:32:53.540 and we are

00:32:54.000 fundamentally

00:32:54.700 atomized into

00:32:56.220 different groups,

00:32:57.700 in which

00:32:58.040 mysteriously,

00:32:59.200 although they all

00:32:59.960 hate each other,

00:33:01.240 they will

00:33:02.040 survive perfectly

00:33:03.420 happily alongside

00:33:04.220 each other,

00:33:04.960 with of course

00:33:05.540 no police force,

00:33:06.820 because the

00:33:07.860 police are

00:33:08.320 wicked.

00:33:09.040 So all of

00:33:09.920 these rival,

00:33:10.720 mutually hating

00:33:11.380 groups will

00:33:12.120 somehow,

00:33:12.880 in this wonderful

00:33:13.700 nirvana,

00:33:14.720 learn to live

00:33:15.320 happily with

00:33:15.900 each other.

00:33:16.440 Right,

00:33:16.700 that's the

00:33:17.280 woke vision,

00:33:18.100 which is why

00:33:18.640 I'm sorry I

00:33:19.280 said I didn't

00:33:20.060 think it was

00:33:20.560 very serious.

00:33:21.680 Now I have

00:33:22.440 got a different

00:33:23.000 vision,

00:33:24.100 which is,

00:33:24.940 and oddly

00:33:25.360 enough,

00:33:26.060 this is what I

00:33:26.660 was talking

00:33:27.160 about in the

00:33:27.740 Darren Grime,

00:33:28.420 I don't know

00:33:28.720 whether you

00:33:28.960 watched the whole

00:33:29.620 of the Darren

00:33:30.460 Grimes video.

00:33:31.300 This is what I

00:33:31.740 was primarily

00:33:32.200 talking about.

00:33:33.100 I was talking

00:33:33.660 about this

00:33:34.060 thing called

00:33:34.540 biculturalism,

00:33:36.600 and this is

00:33:37.520 what I think

00:33:38.040 the solution

00:33:38.660 to our society

00:33:39.900 is,

00:33:40.300 and I learned

00:33:40.800 about it,

00:33:41.640 because I do

00:33:42.180 occasionally listen

00:33:42.860 to people,

00:33:43.900 as well as

00:33:44.840 talking at them,

00:33:45.560 and I learned

00:33:46.000 about it through

00:33:46.620 my friendship

00:33:47.220 with somebody

00:33:47.860 who was very,

00:33:48.520 very different

00:33:48.920 from me,

00:33:49.700 Hugo Grin,

00:33:50.460 on The Moral

00:33:51.000 Maze,

00:33:51.700 back in the

00:33:52.120 late 1990s,

00:33:53.300 and Hugo and

00:33:53.900 I were complete

00:33:54.860 polar opposites,

00:33:55.940 you know,

00:33:56.220 he was a liberal

00:33:56.800 Jew,

00:33:57.740 I was then a

00:33:59.060 sort of radical

00:33:59.840 gay libertarian,

00:34:00.940 though I've softened,

00:34:02.240 I've changed,

00:34:02.840 I've become a

00:34:03.400 radical gay Tory.

00:34:06.080 But Hugo and I

00:34:07.460 had this very

00:34:08.220 spary relationship

00:34:09.580 in which there

00:34:10.320 was a wonderful

00:34:10.900 exchange between us

00:34:12.000 when Hugo,

00:34:12.460 and David,

00:34:15.520 you're not half as

00:34:16.420 nasty as you seem,

00:34:17.620 to which my

00:34:18.060 response was,

00:34:18.840 Hugo,

00:34:19.240 darling,

00:34:19.680 you're not half

00:34:20.240 as nice either.

00:34:21.680 But Hugo had the

00:34:22.860 courage to take

00:34:23.640 myself and my

00:34:24.680 late partner,

00:34:25.420 James,

00:34:25.920 into his home

00:34:26.780 for a Passover,

00:34:28.520 and it was one of

00:34:28.900 the most memorable

00:34:29.860 experiences I've ever

00:34:31.240 had.

00:34:31.540 I had not understood

00:34:32.580 Judaism at all

00:34:34.100 in terms of the,

00:34:35.740 in a sense,

00:34:36.520 the synagogue is

00:34:37.280 dispensable,

00:34:38.520 that central rituals

00:34:39.600 are within the family

00:34:40.680 and within the home,

00:34:42.360 which of course

00:34:42.820 is why it survived

00:34:44.100 2,000 years of

00:34:45.680 diaspora and

00:34:46.780 persecution.

00:34:47.860 But what was also

00:34:48.740 striking to me

00:34:49.620 was this man

00:34:50.700 who,

00:34:51.580 to all intents and

00:34:52.880 purposes,

00:34:53.460 was a very important

00:34:54.600 figure,

00:34:55.320 as British as they

00:34:56.140 come in British

00:34:56.980 public life,

00:34:57.860 becoming somebody

00:34:58.660 completely different,

00:35:01.880 a Jew invoking

00:35:03.280 the rituals of

00:35:04.360 two and a half

00:35:05.180 thousand years.

00:35:06.560 But he was

00:35:07.200 perfectly at home

00:35:08.400 in both of those

00:35:10.020 worlds.

00:35:10.680 And if we look

00:35:12.360 at all our

00:35:13.320 successful immigrant

00:35:14.380 groups,

00:35:15.180 that's what they

00:35:16.240 do.

00:35:17.080 The Hindus,

00:35:18.920 the Sikhs,

00:35:19.620 whatever,

00:35:20.200 the Chinese do

00:35:21.540 this with

00:35:22.040 astonishing

00:35:22.780 facility.

00:35:23.700 You look at

00:35:24.140 the members

00:35:24.500 of the cabinet,

00:35:26.100 of this

00:35:26.360 astonishingly

00:35:27.320 multicultural

00:35:28.160 cabinet.

00:35:29.200 Again,

00:35:29.880 I had a

00:35:31.800 fascinating

00:35:32.300 insight a

00:35:33.920 couple of

00:35:34.240 years ago

00:35:34.740 when I was

00:35:35.740 going around

00:35:36.440 taking various

00:35:37.320 tours when we

00:35:38.000 were at a

00:35:38.240 particular

00:35:38.540 stately home

00:35:39.400 and I'd

00:35:40.300 arrived early

00:35:41.120 and it

00:35:41.640 turned out

00:35:42.040 to be a

00:35:42.260 very good

00:35:42.580 thing

00:35:42.860 because there

00:35:43.400 had been

00:35:43.660 a wedding

00:35:44.040 party so

00:35:44.680 there's still

00:35:45.320 lots of

00:35:45.760 champagne lying

00:35:46.580 around and I

00:35:47.260 quaffed it down

00:35:48.900 and got talking

00:35:50.080 with the staff

00:35:50.780 which is always

00:35:51.320 an interesting

00:35:51.840 experience.

00:35:53.040 And it had

00:35:53.340 been a marriage

00:35:54.080 between an

00:35:55.480 English guy

00:35:56.240 and a

00:35:57.800 Hindu girl.

00:35:59.040 They had

00:35:59.360 gone through,

00:36:00.120 because they

00:36:00.500 were clearly

00:36:00.880 very comfortably

00:36:01.640 off in this

00:36:02.280 grand stately home,

00:36:03.520 they'd gone

00:36:03.820 through no

00:36:04.220 fewer than

00:36:04.820 three ceremonies.

00:36:05.960 You'd had a

00:36:07.260 registry office

00:36:08.260 wedding,

00:36:09.040 you'd had a

00:36:09.580 sort of

00:36:10.140 Christian

00:36:10.660 wedding,

00:36:11.440 and you'd

00:36:11.700 had a

00:36:12.040 Hindu

00:36:12.500 wedding.

00:36:13.520 And this

00:36:14.800 was a

00:36:14.980 wonderful

00:36:15.240 opportunity

00:36:15.860 because you

00:36:16.640 had complete

00:36:17.100 changes of

00:36:17.700 clothes for

00:36:18.380 all of them.

00:36:19.580 And you

00:36:19.840 know,

00:36:20.140 the bride

00:36:20.980 wore white

00:36:21.600 and the groom

00:36:22.080 wore tails

00:36:22.760 and then for

00:36:23.880 the Hindu

00:36:24.260 wedding,

00:36:24.740 they were

00:36:25.460 swathed in

00:36:26.140 silks and

00:36:26.740 saris and

00:36:27.300 whatever.

00:36:27.840 And this

00:36:28.580 complete

00:36:29.420 cultural

00:36:30.460 shift.

00:36:32.220 But,

00:36:33.000 but,

00:36:33.540 but,

00:36:33.840 one of

00:36:34.580 those

00:36:34.800 cultures

00:36:35.300 has to

00:36:35.740 have

00:36:35.920 primacy.

00:36:37.440 It's

00:36:37.960 the

00:36:38.140 native

00:36:38.420 one.

00:36:40.020 It is,

00:36:40.580 it is

00:36:41.080 the values

00:36:41.780 of Britain.

00:36:42.740 You

00:36:43.180 have to

00:36:43.920 be,

00:36:45.060 and it's

00:36:45.360 the only

00:36:45.860 way we

00:36:46.300 can operate,

00:36:47.380 is if,

00:36:47.860 and this

00:36:48.080 is where,

00:36:48.580 again,

00:36:48.860 my profound

00:36:49.680 disagreement

00:36:50.520 with BLM,

00:36:53.520 with,

00:36:53.740 with Bhopal

00:36:54.800 and whatever,

00:36:55.640 there has

00:36:56.220 to be

00:36:56.780 that

00:36:57.240 overarching

00:36:58.200 culture

00:36:59.180 of

00:37:00.440 the

00:37:01.560 liberal

00:37:01.860 West.

00:37:02.440 and you

00:37:05.360 can engage,

00:37:06.180 you can

00:37:06.420 fit,

00:37:07.140 you can

00:37:07.420 swap,

00:37:07.880 you look

00:37:08.180 again,

00:37:08.740 you know,

00:37:08.900 historically,

00:37:11.820 I happen

00:37:14.200 to be

00:37:14.520 rather

00:37:16.840 passionate

00:37:18.380 and

00:37:18.640 philo-semitic

00:37:19.640 to a word.

00:37:21.100 You look

00:37:21.460 at the

00:37:21.680 achievement

00:37:22.040 of families

00:37:22.700 like the

00:37:23.160 Rothschilds,

00:37:23.960 completely

00:37:24.720 British,

00:37:25.920 and yet

00:37:26.340 completely

00:37:27.520 Jewish,

00:37:28.820 this double

00:37:29.580 face.

00:37:30.180 this seems

00:37:31.540 to me

00:37:31.840 to be

00:37:32.080 exactly

00:37:32.660 what we

00:37:33.100 should

00:37:33.280 be

00:37:33.460 aiming

00:37:33.700 for.

00:37:34.640 And why

00:37:35.040 is it

00:37:35.380 that that

00:37:35.660 is such

00:37:36.000 a

00:37:36.160 controversial

00:37:36.540 point?

00:37:37.300 Because

00:37:37.640 you wouldn't

00:37:38.680 be allowed,

00:37:39.340 if you

00:37:39.660 talked about

00:37:40.240 that on

00:37:40.620 Newsnight,

00:37:41.140 I'd give

00:37:41.540 it about

00:37:41.840 23 seconds

00:37:42.780 before someone

00:37:43.620 tried to

00:37:44.020 shout you

00:37:44.380 down.

00:37:44.740 It's quite

00:37:45.240 extraordinary

00:37:45.860 because,

00:37:46.840 again,

00:37:47.280 there is

00:37:47.600 the notion

00:37:48.280 that the

00:37:48.720 West is

00:37:49.260 somehow

00:37:49.580 fundamentally

00:37:50.360 wicked.

00:37:51.900 And of

00:37:52.240 course,

00:37:52.540 it is

00:37:52.840 really that

00:37:53.520 there are

00:37:53.840 only two

00:37:55.080 groups that

00:37:56.200 don't want

00:37:57.020 to fit in

00:37:58.200 that pattern.

00:37:59.800 And we

00:38:00.080 both know

00:38:00.560 what they

00:38:00.980 are.

00:38:03.320 And

00:38:03.700 overwhelmingly,

00:38:05.860 it seems to

00:38:06.580 me,

00:38:07.200 our society,

00:38:08.160 without actually

00:38:08.820 articulating that

00:38:10.040 or without

00:38:10.400 having that

00:38:10.960 as a

00:38:11.260 principle,

00:38:11.960 has actually

00:38:12.600 happened.

00:38:13.660 Except,

00:38:14.780 of course,

00:38:15.360 that the

00:38:15.700 official line

00:38:16.840 is a very

00:38:17.380 different one.

00:38:18.360 But if you

00:38:18.780 look at what

00:38:19.280 the behavioural

00:38:20.120 patterns have

00:38:20.860 become,

00:38:21.600 they have

00:38:21.920 become,

00:38:22.720 in all

00:38:23.280 successful

00:38:23.840 immigrant groups,

00:38:24.900 they've

00:38:25.100 become this

00:38:25.600 biculturalism.

00:38:27.220 Well,

00:38:27.740 I've been

00:38:28.400 talking about

00:38:28.860 this for a

00:38:29.260 long time

00:38:29.660 as a

00:38:29.940 first-generation

00:38:30.600 immigrant.

00:38:31.080 I talk

00:38:31.360 about it

00:38:31.660 in my

00:38:31.860 book.

00:38:32.100 As,

00:38:32.320 by the

00:38:32.500 way,

00:38:32.660 I talk

00:38:32.900 about the

00:38:33.240 slavery

00:38:33.500 points that

00:38:34.040 you made

00:38:34.320 earlier,

00:38:35.100 that I

00:38:35.620 think the

00:38:36.820 only way

00:38:37.380 a multi-ethnic

00:38:38.260 society can

00:38:39.020 work is if

00:38:39.780 it rejects

00:38:40.400 the idea of

00:38:40.880 multiculturalism

00:38:41.700 and encourages

00:38:42.520 people to

00:38:43.520 adopt the

00:38:44.080 primary culture

00:38:44.840 of that

00:38:45.120 society first

00:38:46.040 while also

00:38:47.000 retaining the

00:38:47.680 valuable things

00:38:48.360 about the

00:38:48.920 culture from

00:38:49.460 which they

00:38:50.140 come.

00:38:50.580 And the

00:38:51.080 point is

00:38:52.020 there is no

00:38:52.700 contradiction.

00:38:53.720 No.

00:38:54.080 Unless,

00:38:54.660 of course,

00:38:55.300 you have,

00:38:55.960 again,

00:38:56.380 now let's

00:38:56.980 be frank and

00:38:57.580 return to

00:38:58.180 the problem

00:38:59.160 with Islam.

00:39:00.200 The great

00:39:00.600 problem with

00:39:01.220 Islam,

00:39:01.780 of course,

00:39:02.440 is that

00:39:03.320 Jews,

00:39:05.000 Islam,

00:39:05.460 I have a

00:39:05.820 problem with

00:39:06.240 everybody,

00:39:06.840 don't I?

00:39:07.120 That makes

00:39:08.720 life much

00:39:09.460 simpler.

00:39:09.860 So everybody

00:39:10.420 can cancel

00:39:11.120 me.

00:39:11.540 That's really

00:39:12.260 much better.

00:39:13.520 The problem

00:39:14.040 with Islam

00:39:14.560 is,

00:39:15.000 of course,

00:39:15.400 that unlike

00:39:16.120 Christianity,

00:39:17.180 it does not

00:39:17.960 make a distinction

00:39:18.800 between church

00:39:19.660 and state.

00:39:20.940 There is no

00:39:22.260 equivalent to

00:39:23.460 that extraordinary

00:39:24.760 moment in the

00:39:25.680 Bible where

00:39:26.640 it's very,

00:39:28.700 very striking.

00:39:29.960 And again,

00:39:30.340 looking at many

00:39:31.160 modern Christian

00:39:31.860 attitudes,

00:39:32.840 one of Jesus'

00:39:33.940 disciples says to

00:39:34.980 him,

00:39:35.080 you know,

00:39:35.380 come on,

00:39:35.800 we shouldn't be

00:39:36.520 paying taxes to

00:39:37.440 the Romans,

00:39:38.060 should we?

00:39:38.840 And Jesus

00:39:39.760 says,

00:39:40.560 right,

00:39:40.860 hand me a

00:39:41.400 coin.

00:39:41.680 They hand

00:39:42.660 him a

00:39:42.940 coin.

00:39:43.560 He asks,

00:39:44.180 whose head

00:39:44.720 is on this

00:39:45.300 coin?

00:39:45.980 Of course,

00:39:46.540 it's Caesar.

00:39:47.760 And the

00:39:48.080 wonderful remark,

00:39:49.420 render unto

00:39:50.040 Caesar the

00:39:51.120 things that are

00:39:51.820 Caesar's,

00:39:52.580 and unto God

00:39:53.400 the things that

00:39:54.200 are God.

00:39:54.840 Unfortunately,

00:39:55.940 Islam is a

00:39:56.980 complete doctrine

00:39:58.040 of life in

00:39:59.540 which politics

00:40:00.620 and religion,

00:40:01.580 ideally,

00:40:02.100 that's what the

00:40:02.740 caliphate is

00:40:03.400 about,

00:40:04.020 are one and

00:40:04.680 the same

00:40:05.100 thing.

00:40:05.500 Now,

00:40:05.980 that raises

00:40:06.740 absolutely

00:40:08.060 fundamental

00:40:09.080 problems.

00:40:10.520 And it

00:40:10.940 raises,

00:40:11.600 again,

00:40:12.260 the campaign

00:40:13.160 for Sharia

00:40:13.760 law is

00:40:15.000 unthinkable

00:40:16.720 in a liberal

00:40:18.280 democracy.

00:40:19.120 One simply

00:40:19.900 cannot have

00:40:21.100 it.

00:40:21.580 You could

00:40:22.240 allow it,

00:40:23.240 as,

00:40:23.880 for example,

00:40:24.500 with Jewish

00:40:25.060 law,

00:40:25.560 you can allow

00:40:26.140 it in certain

00:40:26.780 forms of

00:40:27.380 private relations,

00:40:28.660 but even

00:40:29.060 then,

00:40:29.540 because of

00:40:30.640 the very

00:40:30.940 different

00:40:31.280 attitudes to

00:40:32.060 say a

00:40:32.340 divorce,

00:40:32.820 you come

00:40:34.240 up against

00:40:34.720 a huge

00:40:35.440 problem.

00:40:36.120 In every

00:40:36.680 state,

00:40:37.780 there has

00:40:38.260 to be

00:40:38.780 a final,

00:40:39.980 I think,

00:40:40.460 set of

00:40:40.860 values and

00:40:41.780 a final

00:40:42.200 legal principle.

00:40:43.780 One cannot

00:40:44.220 have rival

00:40:44.880 ones,

00:40:45.300 otherwise,

00:40:46.180 this is why

00:40:47.280 there was a

00:40:47.740 reformation,

00:40:48.620 this is why

00:40:49.100 there was the

00:40:49.560 first Brexit

00:40:50.220 against Rome.

00:40:53.900 Fundamentally,

00:40:54.620 there has to

00:40:55.300 be that

00:40:55.800 bedrock,

00:40:57.900 that generally

00:40:59.660 accepted.

00:41:00.580 But you see,

00:41:00.940 we stop

00:41:01.460 teaching this.

00:41:03.560 It is no

00:41:04.860 longer fashionable

00:41:06.120 or respectable

00:41:07.080 to do so.

00:41:08.280 Our national

00:41:08.860 broadcaster

00:41:09.580 actively campaigns

00:41:10.900 against it.

00:41:12.460 Isn't it also

00:41:13.420 the problem,

00:41:14.040 David,

00:41:14.620 of taboo

00:41:15.300 subjects?

00:41:15.900 We had Ed

00:41:16.360 West on the

00:41:17.100 show a few

00:41:17.820 weeks ago,

00:41:18.720 and he made

00:41:19.320 one of the

00:41:19.880 most pertinent

00:41:20.460 points I've

00:41:21.160 ever heard,

00:41:22.000 where he said,

00:41:22.900 the problem

00:41:23.380 with having

00:41:23.920 taboo subjects

00:41:24.900 is it means

00:41:25.740 you never

00:41:26.180 solve problems.

00:41:26.880 Of course,

00:41:27.620 they fester.

00:41:28.520 They fester.

00:41:29.240 Because you

00:41:29.660 don't talk

00:41:30.220 honestly about

00:41:30.840 what I was

00:41:31.260 talking about.

00:41:31.780 I've been

00:41:32.880 making exactly

00:41:33.680 the same

00:41:34.140 point.

00:41:34.660 We were

00:41:34.900 talking again

00:41:35.640 about how

00:41:36.580 much money

00:41:37.040 do you spend

00:41:37.540 on saving

00:41:38.080 a life.

00:41:38.680 The whole

00:41:39.020 absurd

00:41:39.740 distortion of

00:41:40.580 the national

00:41:41.000 health in

00:41:41.720 which you

00:41:42.060 spend,

00:41:43.000 I think it's,

00:41:43.780 if you look

00:41:44.300 at how much

00:41:44.840 money we

00:41:45.300 spend over

00:41:45.980 a person's

00:41:46.520 lifetime,

00:41:47.320 you spend

00:41:47.920 something like

00:41:48.660 70% of it

00:41:49.920 in the last

00:41:50.720 year and a

00:41:51.220 half of their

00:41:51.760 lives.

00:41:52.420 To what

00:41:52.940 purpose?

00:41:54.900 To what

00:41:55.540 purpose?

00:41:56.440 The absurdity

00:41:57.520 of somebody

00:41:58.380 is suing

00:41:58.920 the NHS

00:41:59.460 now,

00:42:00.300 okay,

00:42:01.020 we've both

00:42:01.660 agreed that

00:42:02.580 the way in

00:42:04.100 which care

00:42:04.640 homes were

00:42:05.080 handled and

00:42:05.700 in a sense

00:42:06.260 the almost,

00:42:07.860 to use the

00:42:08.300 word deliberate,

00:42:08.980 is wrong,

00:42:09.720 but the

00:42:10.000 reckless

00:42:10.660 permitting the

00:42:11.580 spread of

00:42:12.380 Covid within

00:42:12.980 them.

00:42:13.420 But to

00:42:13.840 pretend,

00:42:14.680 as this

00:42:15.220 person is

00:42:15.800 doing,

00:42:16.460 that the

00:42:16.800 death of

00:42:17.240 a 90-year-old

00:42:19.620 man with

00:42:20.560 Alzheimer's from

00:42:22.260 Covid is a

00:42:22.980 major tragedy.

00:42:24.480 Please.

00:42:25.860 Please.

00:42:26.620 What this is

00:42:27.040 really about...

00:42:27.680 This means that

00:42:29.180 we've lost any

00:42:30.020 sense that,

00:42:30.800 sorry,

00:42:31.200 lives do have

00:42:32.180 different value.

00:42:33.200 Well,

00:42:33.440 this is what I

00:42:33.960 was going to

00:42:34.280 say.

00:42:34.520 Do you think

00:42:34.840 we've lost

00:42:35.460 any ability

00:42:36.980 to have...

00:42:39.460 Our feelings

00:42:40.300 have become

00:42:40.720 so important

00:42:41.380 and, of

00:42:43.220 course,

00:42:43.480 if it's your

00:42:44.000 parent,

00:42:44.640 it doesn't

00:42:45.020 matter if

00:42:45.460 they're 190

00:42:46.300 and they've

00:42:47.020 got Alzheimer's.

00:42:47.780 Except that

00:42:48.260 you do slightly

00:42:49.080 raise the

00:42:49.540 question why

00:42:50.080 you've put

00:42:50.420 them in a

00:42:50.760 care home.

00:42:51.600 I'm sorry,

00:42:52.360 isn't a care

00:42:53.500 home one of

00:42:54.220 these wonderful

00:42:55.160 words.

00:42:55.940 It's Orwellian.

00:42:56.960 It means the

00:42:57.560 opposite.

00:42:58.240 It's a careless

00:42:59.060 home.

00:42:59.780 It's an

00:43:00.180 uncaring home.

00:43:01.600 It's I can't

00:43:02.320 be bothered to

00:43:03.120 care home or

00:43:03.980 I'm finding it

00:43:04.920 too difficult to

00:43:05.920 care home.

00:43:06.500 Just look at

00:43:07.060 what you can

00:43:07.500 do with the

00:43:09.160 playing of that

00:43:09.940 word.

00:43:10.440 That is what

00:43:10.900 it's really...

00:43:11.400 But dare we...

00:43:12.400 Well, we dare

00:43:13.080 say it.

00:43:13.800 And it's high

00:43:14.440 time we did.

00:43:15.760 Because this is

00:43:16.720 the reason the

00:43:17.500 NHS is costing

00:43:18.560 more and more

00:43:19.720 and more.

00:43:20.320 Again, the

00:43:21.180 saving of lives,

00:43:22.400 of brain-dead

00:43:24.280 children.

00:43:26.400 It's preposterous.

00:43:29.060 Because it's

00:43:29.720 okay, the

00:43:30.240 parents want

00:43:31.080 it.

00:43:31.580 But if that

00:43:32.280 child survives

00:43:33.160 in that condition,

00:43:34.260 it then becomes a

00:43:35.060 vast cost upon the

00:43:36.340 state, upon the

00:43:37.180 rest of us.

00:43:38.080 You see, it's the

00:43:39.020 problem that as a

00:43:40.820 reaction to the

00:43:41.760 horrors of

00:43:42.420 eugenics and

00:43:43.300 Nazism and

00:43:44.100 whatever, we

00:43:45.020 have its feeling,

00:43:47.120 but its false

00:43:47.920 feeling, its

00:43:49.120 sentiment, its

00:43:50.420 sentimentality.

00:43:51.780 We are driven

00:43:52.600 by sentimentality,

00:43:54.400 which is false,

00:43:55.780 dramatic, shallow,

00:43:57.540 displayed feeling.

00:43:58.820 Feelings not in

00:43:59.660 the heart, but

00:44:00.540 feelings worn on

00:44:01.480 the sleeve.

00:44:02.780 But we live in a

00:44:03.560 society that

00:44:04.380 incentivises people

00:44:05.860 to behave like

00:44:06.640 that.

00:44:06.760 Of course it

00:44:07.420 does.

00:44:07.980 Of course it

00:44:08.540 does.

00:44:09.640 And it is

00:44:10.900 disastrous.

00:44:12.580 And we have

00:44:13.600 politicians who

00:44:14.380 are too frit

00:44:15.180 to cite one

00:44:16.580 who wasn't,

00:44:17.760 politicians who

00:44:18.600 are too frit

00:44:19.260 to tackle it.

00:44:20.420 And it's not

00:44:21.180 only that, but

00:44:21.680 to me as well,

00:44:22.520 it's the fact

00:44:23.200 that we don't

00:44:24.000 have religion

00:44:24.540 anymore in this

00:44:25.640 country.

00:44:26.100 Oh yes, we

00:44:26.620 do.

00:44:28.280 Oh yes, we

00:44:29.820 do.

00:44:30.340 God may have

00:44:31.180 died, but you

00:44:31.780 remember the

00:44:32.360 wonderful remark

00:44:33.120 of G.K.

00:44:33.760 Chesterton that

00:44:34.640 when people no

00:44:35.440 longer worship

00:44:36.080 God, they don't

00:44:37.080 worship nothing,

00:44:38.100 they worship

00:44:38.600 anything.

00:44:39.580 And everything

00:44:41.040 that's going on

00:44:41.980 now with woke

00:44:43.400 is a form of

00:44:44.440 perverted religion.

00:44:45.980 I mean, the

00:44:46.360 very notion of

00:44:47.360 this radical

00:44:48.740 equality is the

00:44:50.020 magnificat, you

00:44:50.980 know, and he

00:44:51.660 has exalted

00:44:52.200 them of low

00:44:52.840 degree.

00:44:53.600 He's taken

00:44:54.300 down the

00:44:54.720 mighty from

00:44:55.220 the seats,

00:44:56.160 people, big

00:44:56.900 fat, prosperous,

00:44:58.140 you know, overpaid

00:44:58.860 white men like

00:44:59.680 me and exalted

00:45:00.640 them of low

00:45:01.340 degree.

00:45:02.140 You know,

00:45:02.440 Professor Bhopal,

00:45:03.420 who happens to

00:45:03.940 come from the

00:45:04.580 Brahmin family,

00:45:05.900 and suddenly,

00:45:06.660 you know, in her

00:45:07.560 anxiety to point

00:45:08.780 out the moat in

00:45:09.700 the eye of the

00:45:10.400 West ignores the

00:45:11.720 beam of caste in

00:45:13.080 India from which

00:45:14.140 she benefited from

00:45:15.060 being high caste.

00:45:15.940 You know, it's

00:45:16.320 just, there's an

00:45:18.740 extraordinary

00:45:19.920 religiousness of

00:45:21.500 all of this.

00:45:22.640 What I experienced

00:45:23.980 was the equivalent,

00:45:25.580 at least in the

00:45:26.640 days of the

00:45:27.480 church, you had a

00:45:28.160 trial before you

00:45:29.060 were condemned as

00:45:29.760 a heretic.

00:45:30.500 I mean, this is

00:45:31.700 just a witch

00:45:32.460 lynching.

00:45:33.620 You know, you're

00:45:34.280 hered to the stake

00:45:35.060 and burned as

00:45:35.720 quickly as possible.

00:45:37.080 But it's

00:45:37.500 religious.

00:45:38.520 And this is why,

00:45:39.380 again, why we've

00:45:40.800 ceased to be able to

00:45:41.680 argue with people.

00:45:42.700 And the whole

00:45:43.660 problem with woke

00:45:44.980 is because its

00:45:45.900 statements are so

00:45:46.800 absurd, like, I

00:45:48.780 can become a

00:45:49.520 woman merely

00:45:50.100 because I say

00:45:50.980 so, and you

00:45:52.380 cannot, they

00:45:53.560 cannot argue

00:45:54.280 about them.

00:45:54.940 They become

00:45:55.420 articles of

00:45:56.360 faith.

00:45:57.360 When, there's

00:45:58.360 an extraordinary

00:45:58.840 case at the

00:45:59.600 University of

00:46:00.720 Sussex at

00:46:01.720 Brighton of

00:46:02.580 Professor Kathleen

00:46:03.520 Stock, when she

00:46:04.940 says, you know, I

00:46:05.760 don't actually

00:46:06.400 believe that you

00:46:07.500 do become a

00:46:08.280 woman, what do

00:46:09.820 the trans say?

00:46:11.000 Well, the

00:46:11.220 actually, or the

00:46:12.000 radical trans, what

00:46:13.060 they say is, we

00:46:14.080 cannot be reasoned

00:46:15.400 out of existence.

00:46:17.340 Nobody is

00:46:18.140 challenging their

00:46:20.180 existence.

00:46:21.240 What we're

00:46:21.680 challenging is their

00:46:23.100 right to force us

00:46:24.760 to tell a lie, which

00:46:26.780 is to say that a

00:46:28.200 biological man can

00:46:29.720 become a biological

00:46:30.720 woman.

00:46:31.660 You can't.

00:46:32.600 Or to even

00:46:33.160 eliminate the

00:46:33.900 notion of biology.

00:46:35.060 But this is an act

00:46:35.780 of religious faith.

00:46:36.880 This is like saying

00:46:37.760 you believe the

00:46:38.360 bread and the

00:46:38.840 wine is the

00:46:39.460 flesh and blood of

00:46:40.980 Christ.

00:46:41.320 You're asking us

00:46:42.600 to believe in

00:46:43.220 miracles.

00:46:45.120 I mean, if you

00:46:45.920 think about it, woke

00:46:46.900 is the miracle.

00:46:47.900 Again, the

00:46:48.560 society, right, come

00:46:49.620 on, I'm really

00:46:50.140 running with the

00:46:50.640 idea.

00:46:51.100 It's the society

00:46:52.460 that we have in

00:46:53.280 which wondrously

00:46:54.540 Palestinians and

00:46:56.080 Jews are going to

00:46:56.820 be completely

00:46:57.560 happy in this

00:46:59.100 marvellous utopia.

00:47:00.720 It's the lion

00:47:01.460 lying down with

00:47:02.320 the lamb.

00:47:03.400 I mean, just

00:47:03.860 think about it.

00:47:04.700 All of those

00:47:06.000 religious ideas are

00:47:07.460 now translated and

00:47:08.740 vulgarised into

00:47:10.520 the real world.

00:47:14.120 But of course, it's

00:47:15.200 an absurdity because

00:47:16.440 the lion could lie

00:47:17.460 down with the

00:47:18.080 lamb only at the

00:47:19.220 second coming of

00:47:20.060 Christ.

00:47:21.020 What these people

00:47:21.700 are trying to do is

00:47:22.440 to bring about the

00:47:24.140 second coming here

00:47:26.320 and now.

00:47:27.680 America, of course,

00:47:28.620 you see, has had

00:47:29.520 this right through

00:47:30.320 the 19th century.

00:47:31.760 There were the

00:47:32.140 great awakenings, the

00:47:33.620 great surges, because

00:47:35.240 it's all very

00:47:35.700 puritanical as well.

00:47:36.840 Clearly, the woke

00:47:37.980 believe they're a

00:47:38.700 new elect, certain

00:47:40.860 to go to paradise, and

00:47:42.360 the rest of us are

00:47:43.160 wicked and corrupt, and

00:47:44.660 fundamentally, you

00:47:45.400 know, we should go

00:47:46.840 to hell, and before

00:47:47.960 we do, our life

00:47:48.780 should be made hell

00:47:49.680 here on earth for

00:47:51.040 us.

00:47:51.560 But the phrase that

00:47:53.120 is marvellous is, I

00:47:55.300 think I've coined it,

00:47:56.660 but a friend of mine

00:47:57.420 actually said, somebody

00:47:58.280 got there before it,

00:47:59.500 we should be talking

00:48:00.280 about the great

00:48:01.100 awakening.

00:48:02.740 It's a manifestly

00:48:04.100 religious movement.

00:48:05.220 And I'm afraid

00:48:07.480 secularised religion

00:48:09.540 like that is the

00:48:10.880 most dangerous

00:48:11.980 form of human

00:48:13.540 behaviour.

00:48:14.840 It has got none

00:48:15.720 of the restraints

00:48:16.720 of real religion.

00:48:18.100 It's got none

00:48:18.760 of the restraints

00:48:19.580 of the seriousness

00:48:20.480 of theology.

00:48:21.980 It is the,

00:48:23.520 literally, the blood

00:48:24.700 and guts of the

00:48:25.780 thing, driven by

00:48:27.480 the meanest, the

00:48:28.900 most dangerous, and

00:48:30.400 the most unsuppressed

00:48:31.960 of emotions.

00:48:32.980 You see, it's a

00:48:33.420 new romantic

00:48:34.140 movement.

00:48:35.220 It's, in one

00:48:37.840 sense, what are we

00:48:38.960 really saying?

00:48:39.780 This is a vast

00:48:40.820 reaction to the

00:48:42.340 technological world

00:48:43.640 that we live in.

00:48:44.880 The world of,

00:48:46.780 because remember,

00:48:47.640 in many ways,

00:48:48.260 technology to an

00:48:49.520 ordinary person

00:48:50.200 seems like a miracle.

00:48:51.720 I don't know about

00:48:52.080 you, I really do

00:48:52.900 think when I look

00:48:53.660 at a mobile phone,

00:48:54.800 there's something

00:48:55.240 almost miraculous

00:48:56.400 about it.

00:48:57.000 I have absolutely

00:48:58.160 no comprehension

00:48:59.040 of what is going

00:48:59.800 on inside this

00:49:00.660 thing.

00:49:01.120 And it seems to

00:49:01.760 be able to do

00:49:02.660 what once upon a

00:49:03.900 time, took an

00:49:04.760 entire roomful of

00:49:06.860 secretary's assistance

00:49:07.960 and everything

00:49:08.860 else.

00:49:10.000 But equally, of

00:49:11.160 course, it's an

00:49:11.960 object.

00:49:13.280 It's a thing.

00:49:15.060 It's polished,

00:49:17.380 smooth, profoundly

00:49:19.120 unhuman, as so

00:49:21.220 much of our

00:49:21.960 society is.

00:49:23.100 And I think what

00:49:23.700 we're doing is, as

00:49:25.200 with the 18th

00:49:25.960 century, as with

00:49:26.900 that period of

00:49:28.220 elegance, formality,

00:49:29.740 brilliance, and

00:49:30.340 whatever, there's

00:49:31.060 this violent

00:49:32.100 reaction.

00:49:33.940 The age of

00:49:34.480 reason is

00:49:35.600 followed by the

00:49:36.240 age of unreason,

00:49:37.840 of romanticism,

00:49:38.940 of passion, of

00:49:39.840 Byron, of

00:49:40.660 Beethoven, of

00:49:42.320 Wagner, you

00:49:43.240 know, great

00:49:43.600 lushing waves of

00:49:45.440 passion, sex,

00:49:47.360 emotion, violence,

00:49:48.940 war.

00:49:49.900 And we're

00:49:51.400 seeing this in

00:49:53.460 almost, I think,

00:49:54.240 a parody form.

00:49:55.620 Of course, the

00:49:59.520 woke don't know

00:50:00.660 anything or

00:50:01.180 understand anything,

00:50:02.220 but they're like an

00:50:02.980 extreme form of

00:50:04.260 Rousseau, who on

00:50:05.840 the one hand

00:50:06.580 proclaims that he

00:50:07.640 loves all mankind

00:50:08.560 and on the other

00:50:09.900 hand puts his own

00:50:11.120 children in an

00:50:11.940 orphanage.

00:50:14.480 But the point of

00:50:15.860 religion, the point

00:50:16.440 that I was trying to

00:50:17.060 make, and that

00:50:17.580 point is incredibly

00:50:19.000 valued that you

00:50:19.640 just made, but one

00:50:20.980 of the things

00:50:21.440 religion does that

00:50:22.340 the woke religion

00:50:23.020 does not do is it

00:50:24.540 gives us comfort

00:50:25.440 with the knowledge

00:50:26.060 of our own

00:50:26.560 mortality.

00:50:28.080 And to me, a lot

00:50:29.460 of...

00:50:29.680 And our own

00:50:29.900 flaws, all of

00:50:32.180 those things.

00:50:32.800 But particularly

00:50:33.260 mortality, because

00:50:34.500 we seem on the

00:50:36.340 surface to have

00:50:36.920 solved everything

00:50:37.500 in our society

00:50:38.280 apart from death.

00:50:40.120 We haven't

00:50:40.760 seemed to solve

00:50:41.420 that.

00:50:42.080 And you look at

00:50:43.260 everything that is

00:50:44.180 happening now, it's

00:50:45.320 because we can't

00:50:46.040 accept we're going

00:50:46.600 to die.

00:50:47.460 We know that we're

00:50:48.200 going to die, that

00:50:48.660 there's an end,

00:50:49.140 therefore I don't

00:50:49.640 want to feel

00:50:50.000 discomfort, therefore

00:50:50.860 I don't want to be

00:50:51.480 upset, therefore I

00:50:52.420 don't want to have

00:50:53.300 confrontations, because

00:50:54.360 I've got a

00:50:54.760 limited amount of

00:50:55.420 time here, and I'm

00:50:56.400 going to be

00:50:56.780 pleasure-seeking to

00:50:57.660 the max, which is

00:50:58.720 why I don't want to

00:50:59.460 get married, it's

00:50:59.980 why I don't want to

00:51:00.500 have kids, it's all

00:51:01.400 about me, me, me.

00:51:02.760 But the problem is

00:51:03.640 with our society, if

00:51:04.640 you just have purely

00:51:06.160 selfish individuals

00:51:07.340 operating in that

00:51:08.200 manner, you're never

00:51:09.080 going to have social

00:51:09.800 cohesion.

00:51:10.620 Of course not.

00:51:11.740 I mean, I think

00:51:12.380 you've confused two

00:51:13.460 things there.

00:51:14.300 I think that the

00:51:16.040 question of refusing

00:51:17.460 to accept death is

00:51:19.360 utterly fundamental.

00:51:20.620 it means that there's

00:51:23.200 a wonderful joke, I

00:51:24.800 mean, you've been

00:51:25.600 the serious one, I'll

00:51:26.340 tell the jokes, we'll

00:51:27.520 reverse road.

00:51:28.800 There's a marvellous

00:51:29.800 remark, there's a

00:51:30.600 marvellous remark about

00:51:34.340 Americans who are

00:51:35.180 determined to die in a

00:51:36.240 state of perfect health,

00:51:37.860 and there is that

00:51:39.400 refusal to accept that

00:51:41.460 we are mortal and we

00:51:42.800 are frail and we will

00:51:44.120 die, which is why this

00:51:45.620 absurd attempts at

00:51:47.660 prolonging lives that

00:51:49.220 frankly are not worth

00:51:50.240 prolonging.

00:51:51.020 This refusal to accept

00:51:52.560 that with the state of

00:51:53.800 modern medicine, some

00:51:55.380 form of euthanasia, if

00:51:57.280 people want it, is the

00:51:58.380 sensible way to handle

00:51:59.800 all of this.

00:52:00.480 Again, the absolute

00:52:01.400 refusal to have a

00:52:02.700 serious and proper

00:52:04.120 debate on this

00:52:05.520 subject.

00:52:06.080 The other one, though,

00:52:07.000 I think is different.

00:52:08.760 I mean, it is the, I'm

00:52:11.880 not quite sure why you

00:52:12.980 think that an

00:52:14.140 acceptance of death and

00:52:16.120 values other than pure

00:52:18.760 solipsistic selfishness

00:52:20.460 and pure narcissism are

00:52:22.720 directly connected.

00:52:24.340 I don't think they are.

00:52:25.480 I mean, I think that it's

00:52:26.500 possible to have

00:52:29.380 perfectly sensible

00:52:31.180 attitudes in these

00:52:32.240 areas, and I think it's

00:52:34.240 fundamentally the

00:52:35.300 narcissism and the

00:52:36.900 solipsism of our

00:52:38.660 society.

00:52:41.520 But you see, I think

00:52:42.660 there's a reason for

00:52:43.660 this.

00:52:44.440 None of this is

00:52:45.060 accidental.

00:52:45.620 Sorry, this is, I'm

00:52:47.180 not a determinist

00:52:48.080 historian, but none of

00:52:49.500 this is accidental.

00:52:51.380 Liberalism, from which I

00:52:53.200 benefited, we all have,

00:52:55.120 one way or another.

00:52:56.000 Obviously, I, as a gay

00:52:57.000 man, benefited enormously

00:52:58.760 from the transformation

00:52:59.940 of attitudes.

00:53:02.420 So, in one sense, I'm

00:53:03.580 biting a hand that fed me

00:53:05.040 and indulged me.

00:53:06.200 But liberalism has no

00:53:08.480 end.

00:53:10.380 There is no reason for

00:53:12.040 it to stop.

00:53:13.540 So, the liberalism of

00:53:14.940 the 18th century ended

00:53:16.880 in the horrors of the

00:53:18.180 terror of the French

00:53:19.220 Revolution.

00:53:20.560 The reason of the

00:53:22.420 18th century turned

00:53:24.000 into a parody of itself

00:53:25.660 with the goddess of

00:53:27.280 reason as a half-draped

00:53:28.900 actress of the

00:53:29.620 Comédie Française on

00:53:31.440 the desecrated high

00:53:33.320 altar of Notre-Dame,

00:53:34.620 this awful parody.

00:53:36.500 In the same way, the

00:53:37.640 liberalism of the

00:53:38.540 60s ends in woke.

00:53:40.720 If you look at what's

00:53:43.320 happened within Gay

00:53:44.260 Lip, I was right at the

00:53:46.000 beginning of it.

00:53:47.220 I was, dare I say it,

00:53:50.320 even occasionally going

00:53:51.500 on a demonstration of

00:53:53.100 me at a time when the

00:53:55.060 Ian McKellans of this

00:53:56.140 world were carefully

00:53:57.920 parading their

00:53:58.720 heterosexuality because

00:54:00.080 it might have damaged

00:54:00.940 their stage careers.

00:54:02.660 But if you look at

00:54:04.080 that progression, if you

00:54:05.180 look at gay freedom,

00:54:06.800 lesbian freedom, well

00:54:07.900 then in one sense you

00:54:08.900 can see then, okay,

00:54:10.040 bisexual freedom, well

00:54:11.440 then the next stage is

00:54:12.500 trans freedom.

00:54:14.760 But trans freedom, if it

00:54:17.580 then becomes, we've got

00:54:20.200 to believe you, when we

00:54:22.340 were talking about

00:54:23.460 liberalisation for gays,

00:54:26.700 lesbians, bisexuals,

00:54:27.960 we're saying, please can

00:54:29.660 we be recognised for what

00:54:30.960 we are and not penalised

00:54:33.840 for it.

00:54:34.960 Trans is something

00:54:35.800 completely different.

00:54:37.260 It's saying, please can

00:54:38.680 we be recognised for what

00:54:40.700 we want to be, for what

00:54:43.480 we imagine we are.

00:54:45.920 And by the way, if you

00:54:47.180 don't believe in me, I'm

00:54:48.520 going to destroy your

00:54:49.480 career.

00:54:50.180 Now that seems to me,

00:54:51.540 that's the equivalent of

00:54:53.200 the terror of the French

00:54:54.560 Revolution.

00:54:55.420 It's when freedom turns

00:54:56.900 against itself and

00:54:58.200 consumes itself.

00:54:59.260 It's the phrase,

00:55:00.340 revolutions always end by

00:55:02.860 consuming themselves.

00:55:03.900 They're self-consuming

00:55:05.480 processes.

00:55:06.460 Well, I'm afraid the

00:55:07.080 same is true of

00:55:07.920 liberalism.

00:55:08.960 And it's, strikingly,

00:55:10.760 it's Disraeli, I think

00:55:12.200 the greatest practical

00:55:13.920 political thinker of the

00:55:15.100 19th century, in the

00:55:16.620 same way that Churchill

00:55:17.680 was the greatest

00:55:18.380 practical political

00:55:19.680 thinker of the 20th

00:55:20.740 century.

00:55:21.320 Disraeli recognises that

00:55:23.160 liberalism is the enemy.

00:55:25.740 And that this

00:55:26.880 deracinated liberalism, this

00:55:29.600 thing that dissolves

00:55:30.640 everything, the prime

00:55:32.240 example in our recent

00:55:33.380 history, is the utter

00:55:34.720 catastrophe of the Blair

00:55:36.060 government.

00:55:37.020 Everything that it

00:55:38.140 touched turned to

00:55:39.740 pitch, be it Scotland,

00:55:42.760 be it the Supreme

00:55:43.940 Court, be it whatever.

00:55:46.120 Northern Ireland,

00:55:46.920 don't they?

00:55:47.960 Well, Northern Ireland...

00:55:49.260 Kosovo?

00:55:50.020 Pardon?

00:55:50.880 Kosovo?

00:55:51.480 Kosovo, of course, is

00:55:53.120 simply an EU colony.

00:55:55.560 An EU, I mean, what's

00:55:56.740 happened in the Balkans

00:55:57.660 is an absurdity.

00:55:58.840 I do think, in one

00:56:02.860 sense, I know this

00:56:03.700 sounds appalling,

00:56:04.940 historically, the way

00:56:07.460 disputes like the

00:56:10.160 Balkans are settled, I'm

00:56:11.420 afraid, is by war.

00:56:12.900 That is how the

00:56:13.440 frontiers of, you know

00:56:14.680 this, that's how the

00:56:15.640 frontiers of Eastern

00:56:16.440 Europe were settled at

00:56:17.700 the end of the First

00:56:18.440 World War, with huge

00:56:19.660 movements of population,

00:56:21.320 painful and horrible.

00:56:22.780 But that's how the

00:56:23.620 problem is really solved,

00:56:25.180 not creating this

00:56:26.240 enforced patchwork of

00:56:28.100 unsustainable statelets.

00:56:30.440 Northern Ireland, for

00:56:31.440 heaven's sake, better, I

00:56:33.820 suppose, than the

00:56:34.780 terror, but pretending

00:56:36.000 that the terrorists won,

00:56:37.980 which is what I'm afraid

00:56:39.580 the settlement is based

00:56:40.700 upon.

00:56:41.320 And with the imminent

00:56:42.100 prospect of a Sinn Féin

00:56:43.540 government in Ireland,

00:56:45.140 I suspect it will turn out

00:56:46.660 to have been just a bad

00:56:47.500 idea there.

00:56:49.300 Right.

00:56:49.580 But we've opened enough

00:56:50.620 cans of worms for one day.

00:56:52.440 David, before we wrap up,

00:56:53.980 let me ask you about one

00:56:55.580 other subject, which

00:56:56.420 you've referred to.

00:56:57.360 I've got one last

00:56:58.300 question as well, but you

00:56:59.140 go.

00:56:59.720 I'll ask my final question.

00:57:01.760 Yeah.

00:57:02.240 I wanted to talk a little

00:57:03.500 bit about COVID.

00:57:04.800 Mm-hmm.

00:57:05.620 Not the modern situation

00:57:08.300 and what happened here and

00:57:09.440 who said this and whatever,

00:57:10.520 but a historical perspective.

00:57:14.020 I, based on what I know,

00:57:15.620 and, you know, my

00:57:16.320 historical knowledge is

00:57:17.520 obviously limited, human

00:57:20.000 beings have not dealt with

00:57:21.360 pandemics in this way

00:57:22.440 before.

00:57:22.960 Never.

00:57:23.980 But human beings have

00:57:26.780 dealt with many pandemics

00:57:28.020 before.

00:57:28.960 Mm-hmm.

00:57:29.400 So what do we need to know

00:57:33.140 about periods of this kind

00:57:36.160 in human history?

00:57:37.400 And what are we likely to

00:57:39.200 have to watch out for and

00:57:40.600 expect with this?

00:57:43.120 I think, in a sense, the way

00:57:44.720 we dealt with COVID was a

00:57:46.980 direct reflection of

00:57:48.060 everything we've been

00:57:48.800 talking about now.

00:57:49.880 that we thought in a sense

00:57:52.500 that it was the notion

00:57:55.300 that quite a lot of people

00:57:56.620 would die was something so

00:57:58.360 monstrous that we decided to

00:58:00.140 shut down society.

00:58:02.180 Now, no, this is the first

00:58:04.260 time that a plague, it's a

00:58:06.540 very, very minor plague, by

00:58:08.220 the way, in comparison with

00:58:09.620 the great plagues of the, say,

00:58:12.000 the 14th and 15th century.

00:58:15.040 Now, the great, the Black Death

00:58:17.660 eliminates probably two-thirds

00:58:19.540 of its cumulative effect

00:58:22.040 between half and two-thirds of

00:58:23.760 the population.

00:58:24.660 That's real.

00:58:25.820 This was a relatively minor blip.

00:58:28.300 But for the first time, we

00:58:29.980 decided to inflict more damage

00:58:32.740 on ourselves in trying to

00:58:34.440 control the plague than the plague

00:58:36.440 would have done if it had been

00:58:39.320 given, as it were, the vexed

00:58:42.900 question of herd immunity.

00:58:44.560 Now, you could argue this is

00:58:46.020 because we've developed proper

00:58:47.760 attitudes to the sacredness of

00:58:49.540 life and the sanctity of life,

00:58:51.300 that we no longer take the

00:58:52.920 indifference, the relatively

00:58:54.940 indifferent view.

00:58:55.980 I mean, our ancestors had to

00:58:57.440 take a relatively indifferent

00:58:59.000 view, which is not to say

00:59:00.480 that things like quarantine and

00:59:02.580 all the rest of it were not

00:59:03.740 very frequently applied.

00:59:06.080 I think the problem is we also

00:59:07.880 had a false model.

00:59:09.600 We got a Chinese virus and we

00:59:11.760 decided to have a Chinese

00:59:12.940 solution.

00:59:14.080 I mean, the lockdown is

00:59:15.600 totally antithetical.

00:59:17.640 This is the point Jonathan

00:59:18.780 Sumption has been making

00:59:20.140 repeatedly.

00:59:20.720 It is absolutely antithetical

00:59:23.280 to British values, to Western

00:59:25.660 liberal values.

00:59:26.960 And it is a testimony to the

00:59:29.400 fundamental collapse of those

00:59:31.460 values that it's been allowed

00:59:33.060 to happen.

00:59:33.780 David, let me interrupt you

00:59:34.640 there because you're making

00:59:35.540 such a good point.

00:59:36.420 And I want to just interject

00:59:37.420 this because I think this is

00:59:38.680 so important and you've allowed

00:59:39.840 me to see something I've been

00:59:41.040 rummaging around in my head

00:59:42.560 for a while.

00:59:44.060 I think what you're really

00:59:44.860 saying, correct me if I'm

00:59:46.100 wrong, is that we've forgotten

00:59:48.580 that freedom comes with cost.

00:59:50.400 Absolutely.

00:59:51.640 Freedom has a price.

00:59:53.540 Freedom has a price in exactly

00:59:55.160 the same way that trying to

00:59:56.280 prevent death has a price.

00:59:58.880 And because we've got into the

01:00:00.020 habit of not having serious

01:00:01.620 conversations, we've not debated

01:00:03.600 the balance between those two.

01:00:05.220 We've also been sold completely

01:00:06.880 bad science.

01:00:08.020 The whole science of lockdown,

01:00:10.240 Professor Lockdown, Neil

01:00:11.900 Ferguson, is a fraud.

01:00:13.720 Let's just use this word, this

01:00:15.640 absolute word.

01:00:17.180 He used the same mathematical

01:00:20.200 models for BSE.

01:00:22.180 He used the same mathematical

01:00:23.460 models for foot and mouth

01:00:25.480 disease.

01:00:26.020 And he was out by factors of

01:00:27.900 scores.

01:00:29.380 Huge, huge.

01:00:30.760 Why this man is allowed to hold

01:00:33.420 forth is beyond me.

01:00:34.360 It's bad applied maths.

01:00:37.380 It's not medical science.

01:00:38.700 But there is a science.

01:00:40.780 And the science is that of

01:00:41.820 vaccination.

01:00:42.980 Now, this will surprise you.

01:00:45.060 I am absolutely in favour of

01:00:47.280 compulsory vaccination.

01:00:49.220 If you actually look at one of

01:00:51.620 the great reasons that we've

01:00:54.180 eliminated infectious illness, it

01:00:56.360 is vaccination.

01:00:58.060 Again, the great British

01:00:59.260 discovery, Janna's discovery of

01:01:02.360 vaccination, of cowpox, which

01:01:04.820 eliminated smallpox.

01:01:06.800 And effectively, it is compulsory.

01:01:10.540 In the same way, as a child, I

01:01:13.660 desperately liked the fact that

01:01:15.340 there wasn't a Salk vaccine for

01:01:17.020 polio.

01:01:17.680 Because I never do things by

01:01:19.500 halves.

01:01:19.920 I not only had club feet, I

01:01:21.500 caught polio.

01:01:23.000 And from that point onwards,

01:01:25.300 every child was vaccinated

01:01:27.220 against polio.

01:01:28.600 You weren't asked.

01:01:29.620 You were in a queue.

01:01:30.300 And you had little needles

01:01:31.600 pushed in your arm.

01:01:33.020 And we've eliminated illness

01:01:35.060 after illness.

01:01:36.240 We also used to have, because of

01:01:38.380 the omnipresence of infectious

01:01:40.280 illness, we actually had

01:01:42.060 isolation hospitals.

01:01:44.800 We had fundamental powers of

01:01:46.900 medical officers of health, all

01:01:48.600 of which we threw away in the

01:01:49.860 1960s.

01:01:51.160 So there is a way of dealing

01:01:52.560 with this.

01:01:53.180 And it is vaccination.

01:01:54.640 And there's no libertarian

01:01:56.020 argument against it.

01:01:57.580 What about bodily autonomy?

01:01:58.880 Pardon?

01:01:59.080 Bodily autonomy.

01:02:01.160 You, the state, has no right to

01:02:02.960 inject something into my body

01:02:04.120 without my concern.

01:02:05.160 I'm sorry.

01:02:06.460 You're a member of a society in

01:02:08.520 which if you go around

01:02:09.620 unvaccinated, you're likely to

01:02:11.300 infect others.

01:02:12.400 Well, the evidence isn't very

01:02:13.860 strong on that, David.

01:02:15.760 The idea that vaccination

01:02:17.180 prevents infection is very,

01:02:19.120 very, very limited.

01:02:20.820 What?

01:02:21.660 It's very limited.

01:02:22.500 Well, it certainly limits the

01:02:23.580 consequences of it.

01:02:24.900 No, no.

01:02:25.300 You're right.

01:02:25.760 So the vaccine protects you

01:02:27.820 against serious illness and it

01:02:29.260 protects you against going to

01:02:31.220 hospital and protects you

01:02:32.320 against dying.

01:02:33.320 It does not have any strong

01:02:34.980 evidence to suggest that it

01:02:36.480 prevents me from catching it

01:02:38.620 from you because you're

01:02:39.540 vaccinated or vice versa.

01:02:41.180 No, no.

01:02:41.200 But that's not the issue.

01:02:43.520 It limits the consequences of

01:02:45.600 infectious disease.

01:02:47.180 This is why small...

01:02:48.680 Sorry, if you were right and I

01:02:50.720 was wrong, we'd still have

01:02:51.980 smallpox, that it is precisely

01:02:55.040 the universality of vaccination

01:02:56.920 against smallpox that

01:02:58.560 effectively eradicated it

01:03:00.500 because there was nobody left

01:03:02.380 getting smallpox and therefore

01:03:03.920 nobody caught it even though not

01:03:05.620 everybody is vaccinated against

01:03:07.040 it now.

01:03:08.260 And sorry, this really does seem

01:03:09.920 to me to be an...

01:03:10.700 There is a science.

01:03:12.080 There's a real medical science.

01:03:13.820 But one of the problems is,

01:03:15.100 again, we've had public debate

01:03:17.800 is so slovenly and the government

01:03:20.260 used the science as a get-out

01:03:23.480 card, as an arse-covering card.

01:03:27.320 And, of course, the scientists,

01:03:28.820 the scientists, some of whom

01:03:30.260 weren't, I had no idea we had

01:03:32.020 so many serious experts in

01:03:35.320 epidemiology, so I had no idea

01:03:38.040 the country was crawling with

01:03:40.140 people who understood everything

01:03:41.580 about virology.

01:03:42.880 Amazing, you know, every tenth-rate

01:03:44.780 academic and every eighth-rate

01:03:46.300 university popped up on SAGE.

01:03:48.580 And the behaviour of SAGE,

01:03:51.660 everybody going shocking.

01:03:55.280 You're there to give advice to

01:03:57.060 a government.

01:03:57.840 The moment you've given the

01:03:59.040 advice, what do you do?

01:04:00.460 You then all jostle and struggle

01:04:02.540 to get on Question Time or to

01:04:04.440 appear on the news and to become

01:04:06.020 little stars.

01:04:07.580 Now, that's not...

01:04:08.900 That really isn't what you should

01:04:11.400 be doing.

01:04:12.360 So I'm afraid the whole thing has

01:04:14.420 shown...

01:04:14.580 Our reaction to COVID has shown, I

01:04:18.280 think, the extent to which we are

01:04:20.740 in a fully decadent society.

01:04:23.760 It's shown an absolute refusal to

01:04:26.240 ask big questions.

01:04:27.800 It has shown vanity, the vanity of

01:04:31.020 the scientist, me, me, me.

01:04:34.720 It has shown the absolute

01:04:37.720 incomprehension of how medicine

01:04:40.060 actually works.

01:04:41.140 Thank you for pointing me there.

01:04:42.760 No, no, no.

01:04:43.560 I don't...

01:04:44.220 No, David, I'm sorry.

01:04:45.060 I don't accept this.

01:04:46.140 Okay, that's fine.

01:04:46.960 We'll then...

01:04:47.420 Right.

01:04:48.240 Let us give an example to

01:04:49.500 everybody and we'll agree to

01:04:50.640 disagree.

01:04:53.260 But...

01:04:53.860 And the complete ignoring of

01:04:55.660 history as to how these things

01:04:57.220 have been dealt with before.

01:05:00.000 On the other hand, it's shown

01:05:01.880 something else, which is the

01:05:03.500 wonders of private enterprise.

01:05:05.220 That is to say, the discovery of

01:05:07.680 the vaccine, the extraordinary

01:05:10.020 rapid development of its

01:05:11.780 manufacture.

01:05:13.260 Isn't it very striking?

01:05:15.240 Everywhere you look, the state

01:05:17.780 has performed badly.

01:05:19.380 Do you remember testing?

01:05:20.820 Compare the testing regime, you

01:05:23.120 done through the NHS and through

01:05:25.460 Public Health England, and compare

01:05:27.820 on the other hand, the private

01:05:29.900 enterprise development of the

01:05:31.340 vaccine.

01:05:32.160 Look again.

01:05:33.000 Do you remember right at the

01:05:34.020 beginning?

01:05:34.340 People were going on about, oh,

01:05:36.540 we need rationing.

01:05:38.200 We need a national food service.

01:05:40.320 And how quickly the supermarkets

01:05:41.840 sorted it out.

01:05:42.920 Have you noticed how quickly even

01:05:44.620 the petrol shortage has gone away?

01:05:46.540 Imagine if we'd had a state

01:05:48.420 supply of petroleum and state-run

01:05:52.600 petrol stations and state-run...

01:05:55.480 We'd solve the climate crisis.

01:05:57.100 There would certainly.

01:05:58.440 There wouldn't be a single moving

01:06:00.880 car on Lurie in Britain.

01:06:02.280 But isn't it...

01:06:03.060 I'm being really serious.

01:06:04.980 And at the same time, we are

01:06:06.780 constantly piling more and more

01:06:09.220 onto the state as the state

01:06:10.760 becomes more and more

01:06:11.920 incompetent as its reach

01:06:13.540 extends.

01:06:15.640 Well, I grew up in the Soviet

01:06:16.920 Union.

01:06:17.300 You don't need to get a

01:06:17.900 message on this.

01:06:18.700 But unfortunately, the people in

01:06:21.020 Britain didn't...

01:06:22.020 Boris Johnson did not grow up in

01:06:23.620 the Soviet Union.

01:06:24.400 And we're now seeing this extraordinary

01:06:26.720 paradox of a so-called conservative

01:06:30.560 government that seems to think that the

01:06:32.520 state is the solution.

01:06:33.720 When it's faced with the manifesting

01:06:36.480 competence of everything, from DVLC to the

01:06:41.360 Inland Revenue to...

01:06:43.780 The one thing that still preserves some sort of sense

01:06:46.480 is the Treasury.

01:06:47.700 But that's about all.

01:06:48.660 There was a moment earlier on in the interview, which I think, when we touched on art, because

01:06:55.300 to me, art is very, very important.

01:06:58.000 Art reflects the culture.

01:06:59.180 It reflects the society.

01:07:00.260 And we were...

01:07:01.120 As it does so brilliantly.

01:07:02.620 Yeah.

01:07:03.000 Look at the Turner Prize.

01:07:05.080 Yeah.

01:07:05.580 Look at Jeff Koons.

01:07:08.100 Yeah.

01:07:08.300 Look, you know, this is the art of decadence and absurdity.

01:07:11.500 Look at whatever it is.

01:07:13.460 It's an ice cream cone with a cherry on it, shoved on a pedestal into

01:07:16.980 Vancouver Square.

01:07:17.960 Yes, absolutely.

01:07:19.420 But what it shows is that we have a dearth of ideas.

01:07:23.280 There's no fresh ideas.

01:07:25.060 There's no new way of looking at...

01:07:25.940 It's Duchamp.

01:07:26.580 The whole thing is that funny notion of Marcel Duchamp back at the end of the First World

01:07:33.180 War, that anything is an...

01:07:35.040 Do you know what?

01:07:36.180 It's exactly the same as trans.

01:07:38.540 What Duchamp said was, a urinal is a work of art because I say it is.

01:07:44.180 It's exactly...

01:07:45.060 You see what I mean?

01:07:45.700 It's exactly the same phenomenon.

01:07:47.760 It's the phenomenon of words, the whole business of conceptual art.

01:07:51.980 It's the phenomenon of the word actually given priority over the craft, the act of painting,

01:07:58.260 carving, or whatever it is.

01:07:59.980 And, of course, the solipsism and the, you know, just the focus in on the self of because

01:08:05.320 I say it is, it is.

01:08:07.040 Or the fundamental, it's a miracle because I say it's a work of art.

01:08:12.100 The one Turner exhibit was turning on and off a light switch.

01:08:17.160 Ha!

01:08:17.800 No, quite seriously.

01:08:19.420 And this thing, it receives enormous amounts of public money.

01:08:25.000 The Arts Council is fixated on this rubbish.

01:08:29.680 And it is rubbish.

01:08:30.720 It's his complete emperor's new clothes.

01:08:33.520 But what is most astonishing about it, Francis, you put your finger on it.

01:08:37.260 It's old emperor.

01:08:38.500 If you can have an old...

01:08:40.280 Presumably, it means you've got a withered willy, you know, it's a kind of old emperor's

01:08:43.800 new clothes.

01:08:44.520 Because these are ideas that have been knocking around since the beginning of the 20th century.

01:08:49.900 They're a hundred years old.

01:08:51.460 It's a hundred years of waving two fingers and calling it art.

01:08:56.520 David, I said I had the last question, but I've got one more.

01:08:59.840 And it's personal to you because I want to finish where we started the interview, which

01:09:03.340 is what do we do with people like you in society?

01:09:06.560 People who are talented and brilliant, but also take risks and make mistakes and sometimes

01:09:11.660 say things that are insensitive and some people find...

01:09:14.420 Always insensitive, yeah.

01:09:16.580 I mean, we talked about the reaction to your situation, which I agree with you, was excessive.

01:09:23.280 But what should we do when someone says the wrong thing?

01:09:26.040 I think we've forgotten the answer to that question.

01:09:27.680 I don't know what the answer is.

01:09:29.040 What should we do when people say something offensive?

01:09:31.260 Well, the sensible thing is usually to say, silly old fool, ignore him, which is what

01:09:38.140 one tended to do.

01:09:40.760 The other is perhaps to listen.

01:09:45.280 Because of course, you see, again, I've been comparing myself to Churchill.

01:09:50.560 With typical modesty, I will now compare myself to the prophet.

01:09:54.360 People like me are the equivalent of the prophets of the Old Testament.

01:10:00.080 We are the Nais or the Cassandras.

01:10:02.520 And again, you remember what happened to Cassandra.

01:10:04.480 She was ignored.

01:10:05.520 She told the truth, but she was ignored, which seems to me to be a pretty accurate description.

01:10:11.280 And what should we do?

01:10:13.680 Well, I suppose you should really listen to things that challenge you.

01:10:19.100 But it's very difficult to persuade people to do that.

01:10:24.200 You have to sugar pill.

01:10:25.600 So it needs people who are more tactful than I am and probably subtler and more insinuating,

01:10:34.180 more snake-like to carry these things through.

01:10:38.480 But now to be completely serious, societies depend on dissent.

01:10:45.680 You know this from the Soviet Union.

01:10:47.340 Societies that try to suppress dissent die.

01:10:51.740 It is very simple.

01:10:53.300 I come from, I'm talking about it, I come from long generations of religious dissenters,

01:10:58.800 of people who said, no, I do not accept what is publicly enforced belief.

01:11:04.820 I think it is wrong.

01:11:06.720 And if you actually look at, in every society, it is these marginal groups that are high creatives.

01:11:13.560 As I said, never has the word creativity been so misused.

01:11:17.700 If you look at the record of Quakers in England, if you look at the record of Jews in Russia,

01:11:23.180 if you look at the record of old believers, wherever the immigrants in Britain,

01:11:29.320 like the religious refugees from France, the Huguenots or whatever.

01:11:33.320 Louis XIV destroyed France when he drove out the Huguenots.

01:11:39.280 They were the most intelligent, the most creative, the most brilliant craftsmen.

01:11:43.600 The reason that in England you suddenly get this extraordinary development of everything from furniture

01:11:49.340 to silversmith work in the early 18th century is because Louis XIV,

01:11:54.380 whom Churchill uses as the model for Hitler, drove out the Huguenots, the Protestants from France.

01:12:03.320 They were the greatest.

01:12:04.620 You look at their names, echoing through the manufacture of silver in 18th century England.

01:12:10.020 They're French, French, French.

01:12:11.240 They're Huguenots.

01:12:11.980 But they're marginal.

01:12:13.060 They're dissenters.

01:12:14.300 And a society that loses sight of this is finished.

01:12:18.460 We used to have the reputation of English eccentricity.

01:12:22.960 Going.

01:12:24.920 Again, it's one of the things, I know this sounds a real paradox,

01:12:28.560 it's one of the things I worry about insofar as, I don't really worry about it,

01:12:33.420 but if I'm put on a program like this and asked to find something to worry about,

01:12:38.220 it is about gay life.

01:12:41.080 We used to be dissenters.

01:12:42.840 Now, of course, you know, it's practically compulsory,

01:12:46.060 as one of the more discontented members of my department at LSE was remarked.

01:12:51.920 And as it mainstreams, and, you know, what happens now generally,

01:12:57.180 I think when you come out, one of my younger gay friends said,

01:13:00.700 you know, it was absolutely terrible what happened.

01:13:03.040 Just awful.

01:13:03.980 I said, oh, poor lad, what was it?

01:13:05.360 He said, well, my mother said, you know,

01:13:08.180 what's your boyfriend called?

01:13:10.140 Am I going to like him?

01:13:11.880 When's the wedding?

01:13:13.100 What am I going to like?

01:13:13.560 For heaven's sake, here you are making this heart-rending confession,

01:13:17.580 and it's just treated as an excuse for a new pair of shoes.

01:13:21.060 And if you, again, if you look at the gay world that produced people like Oscar Wilde,

01:13:27.860 that's not going to happen again.

01:13:29.640 Stephen Fry is a very bargain-basement version of Oscar Wilde.

01:13:34.940 I suppose I'm now arguing for persecution.

01:13:37.120 I think so.

01:13:39.440 But the point, again, about the Soviet Union,

01:13:41.900 dissent is very important, David.

01:13:44.900 Yeah.

01:13:45.360 And it's an unhealthy society that cannot process dissent.

01:13:50.780 It's like a human being.

01:13:52.100 A human being that can't handle disagreement is an unhealthy human being.

01:13:55.340 Absolutely.

01:13:55.800 And society is the same,

01:13:57.460 which is why it has been a pleasure to have you back.

01:13:59.840 Thank you.

01:14:01.840 We're going to have some questions for our local supporters.

01:14:04.640 But the last question we always ask is,

01:14:06.300 what's the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be?

01:14:08.880 Having fun.

01:14:09.600 And we've made it all so serious.

01:14:13.340 I mean, one of the things that sustained me in all of this is I've been attacking simple pleasure-seeking.

01:14:21.060 But one needs to enjoy life.

01:14:24.660 I love doing this.

01:14:25.880 I love debate.

01:14:27.080 I love the pleasures of food and drink.

01:14:29.420 In the days when they're more readily available, I love the pleasures of sex.

01:14:32.600 But it's not that destructive hedonism, that just complete repetition.

01:14:41.080 It is the enjoyment, the savoring.

01:14:43.420 It is good food, drink, decent furniture, things that are beautiful.

01:14:50.400 You were talking about art.

01:14:52.620 All of that.

01:14:53.940 These are the things that, again, using very unfashionable language, elevators,

01:14:58.860 take us beyond ourselves, but can also unite us with other people.

01:15:04.800 What a wonderful note to end on.

01:15:06.720 And David, you've also got a YouTube channel that you're starting.

01:15:10.840 Why don't you tell the viewers about that and the listeners?

01:15:13.960 Well, it's going to be called, very surprisingly, David Starkey Talks.

01:15:19.260 When is he ever seen?

01:15:20.220 My mother had a wonderful line on that.

01:15:22.120 Your tongue will be the ruin of you, she said.

01:15:24.320 And she was, of course, absolutely right and absolutely wrong.

01:15:26.680 It's been the making and the unmaking.

01:15:28.560 I'm going to be talking primarily about history.

01:15:31.460 I'm going to try and do it very free form.

01:15:34.280 It's not going to be like a television documentary.

01:15:36.940 Those days were a bit past, I think.

01:15:38.940 It's going to be the equivalent of, I've always enjoyed lecturing.

01:15:44.340 What we mentioned beforehand, and I think I should say this safely now,

01:15:47.720 I've always regarded public speaking as the best form of oral sex.

01:15:51.520 So what this is going to be, it's the equivalent of me doing an extemporary lecture,

01:15:56.520 which was the thing I most enjoyed when I was an academic.

01:16:00.500 And I'm going to be doing it on a huge range of topics.

01:16:03.600 Obviously, I'll be covering the Tudors.

01:16:05.720 Obviously, I'll be covering the monarchy.

01:16:07.520 But I've just done one that I think is really great on a statue.

01:16:12.100 The statue of somebody who was in the slave trade,

01:16:14.920 a man called William Beckford.

01:16:16.700 It's one of the biggest objects in the Guildhall in London.

01:16:19.000 But he was also a leading campaigner for radical politics and liberty

01:16:23.840 and the extension of the franchise.

01:16:26.280 Slave owner, radical libertarian.

01:16:29.520 And that's, of course, the paradox at the heart of the American Revolution.

01:16:34.080 So what I will try and do, I will try and give people that sense of the engagement with a mind.

01:16:44.360 I mean, it was what I, I loved aspects of teaching in the years when I was a university teacher,

01:16:50.540 in which, but again, it needs what you were talking about.

01:16:54.880 It needs the ability to talk without limits, to talk, to criticise,

01:17:02.700 but not to criticise to destroy, but to criticise to develop and to encourage.

01:17:08.280 But above all, to open the mind.

01:17:10.960 History is wonderful because, by definition, you have to engage with different values.

01:17:16.080 See, this is the great problem, the refusal to accept there can be any other values

01:17:20.040 than the values of the moment.

01:17:21.360 Sir Thomas More had values that were pretty much the opposite of ours.

01:17:25.740 That doesn't mean that he was a bad man.

01:17:27.560 He was a very great man, but he just happened to have different values.

01:17:30.700 It's a form of mental tourism that genuinely broadens the mind.

01:17:35.220 And so I'll be trying to, and I think talking is, we all know about reading,

01:17:41.760 and reading is utterly fundamentally important.

01:17:44.320 But I think talking, that, we talk about the author's voice with the book.

01:17:49.480 But talking, talking, the thing that's now offered with things like YouTube,

01:17:54.220 actually enables you to have the reality of that conversation of two minds.

01:18:01.360 I'm sure I will not get it right to begin with.

01:18:03.900 There'll be a period of experiment.

01:18:05.800 I'm hoping people will bear with me and enjoy it and criticise me,

01:18:10.200 which I'm very happy.

01:18:11.940 But also that we can all learn a little bit from each other.

01:18:15.640 Look, David, I'm very much looking forward to it.

01:18:17.960 And as someone who runs a YouTube channel, I assure you,

01:18:20.360 there will be plenty of criticism.

01:18:22.140 Don't you worry about that.

01:18:25.140 David, David Starkey Talks, I'm really looking forward to it.

01:18:28.140 Thank you so much for coming back.

01:18:29.860 And thank you all for watching and listening at home.

01:18:32.340 We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one,

01:18:35.660 or Raw Show.

01:18:36.320 They always go out at 7pm UK, 2pm Eastern Standard.

01:18:40.260 Or if you like your trigonometry, on the go.

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01:18:44.540 Take care and see you soon, guys.

01:18:47.620 We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview.

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TRIGGERnometry - November 08, 2021

David Starkey - I Won't Bow Down to the Mob

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