TRIGGERnometry - DEBATE： Are Podcasters Destroying MAGA？ - Batya Ungar-Sargon

00:00:00.000 POLLING SHOWS THAT BETWEEN 80% AND 90% OF REPUBLICANS BACK THE PRESIDENT'S WAR.

00:00:08.000 THAT PODCAST SPHERE IS JUST SO TOTALLY DIVORCED FROM WHERE AVERAGE PEOPLE ARE AT.

00:00:14.000 AND YOU SEE THIS COME UP ON ISRAEL, YOU SEE IT COME UP ON EPSTEIN, YOU SEE IT COME UP ON IRAN,

00:00:19.000 YOU SEE IT COME UP ON FOREIGN POLICY AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

00:00:22.000 EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO GET THEIR NEWS FROM TUCKER CARLSON TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH HIM ON THIS ISSUE,

00:00:27.000 this issue no matter how many times he says it's Israel's war. That's not a divide. That's a divide

00:00:32.640 between the podcasters and the content creators and then the mainstream voters. The fact that the vice

00:00:38.480 president and frankly let's be honest the heir apparent. Oh here we go. This is going to be

00:00:43.540 interesting as well. He will not be the nominee if he cannot distance himself from someone like

00:00:49.440 Tucker Carlson. He feels very confident about their chances of you know striking a deal with

00:00:56.700 a new moderate leadership in the near future. I could be very wrong about that.

00:01:00.640 Where do you get new moderate leadership when you're bombing a country? 0.63

00:01:07.160 Batya, welcome back to Chickenometry. 0.96

00:01:09.140 Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here.

00:01:11.760 Oh, it's great to have you back. Last time we had you on, that episode was really informative,

00:01:15.920 absolutely crushed as well.

00:01:17.520 Thank you.

00:01:18.240 And the reason we wanted to have you back is you and I keep having a private debate in our DMs

00:01:24.060 about some things that I actually think is really relevant to a lot of the stuff that

00:01:27.820 we see particularly online at the moment.

00:01:30.220 And I guess the main thing that you keep saying to me is all of these podcast wars and, you

00:01:36.180 know, Tucker Carlson versus Ben Shapiro and all of this stuff is not really remotely reflective

00:01:41.140 of what's actually happening in America, which I find an interesting perspective because

00:01:44.980 on the one hand, I think it's kind of hard to believe.

00:01:47.640 On the other hand, when we see Americans talking about British politics, which increasingly

00:01:51.740 happens i'm like yeah okay i can see how people from afar might be directionally somewhat accurate

00:01:59.180 but kind of also not fully present to the realities on the ground and get a skewed perspective

00:02:04.460 so give us your your perspective and where you think a lot of this kind of online chatter is

00:02:09.340 is not reflective of reality i think what we've observed over the last year is that in issue

00:02:15.580 after issue after issue, the podcast terriot

00:02:19.580 has been radically out of touch

00:02:21.920 with where the vast majority of MAGA voters,

00:02:26.000 Trump voters, Republicans are at.

00:02:29.760 So what you have in America,

00:02:32.140 particularly when it comes to an issue like anti-Semitism,

00:02:34.600 is this has always been relegated to the elites.

00:02:38.400 Since the founding of this country,

00:02:39.840 there was something in the soil

00:02:41.400 that just rejected the idea of hating Jews.

00:02:44.480 There were Jews here since 1654,

00:02:46.920 and in one of the massive betrayals,

00:02:50.020 American Jews see themselves as an immigrant community

00:02:52.720 when actually we were inextricably part

00:02:55.520 of the founding of this country.

00:02:57.220 That elite discourse has trickled down

00:03:01.000 in a very big way on the left.

00:03:03.040 So the mainstream Democratic voter

00:03:06.100 is very deeply influenced by their mainstream media.

00:03:11.100 But the same cannot be said about the right, where the content creator class, which was a very welcome breakaway from the mainstream media, which is so liberal and so anti-Trump and so anti-MAGA and so anti-religious, anti-American, that podcast sphere is just so totally divorced from where average people are at.

00:03:35.740 And you see this come up on Israel. You see it come up on Epstein. You see it come up on Iran. You see it come up on foreign policy again and again and again, where the people who claim to be the influencers of the right simply have no influence, neither on the president nor on his voters. And the polling just keeps bearing this out.

00:03:56.320 and honestly give us your data points on that okay um let's take the war in iran right something

00:04:01.840 everybody's talking about right now i think it's safe to say that the majority of the podcast world

00:04:07.760 is very against it there's a lot of talk and chatter about this being israel's war you hear

00:04:13.360 this a lot on the podcast sphere i can't think of a single sort of content creator podcaster aside

00:04:19.280 from Ben Shapiro, who sort of supports the war. Okay, so we have polling. How do Republicans feel

00:04:26.560 about this? Well, the polling shows that between 80 and 90 percent of Republicans back the

00:04:33.400 president's war. So the mainstream media is too happy to take the podcaster's word for it that

00:04:39.780 there's a MAGA divide. But if you look at people who call themselves MAGA Republicans, the numbers

00:04:44.680 are even higher, 90% support for the war, 93% support for US-Israel alliance. That's not a

00:04:52.180 divide. That's a divide between the podcasters and the content creators and then the mainstream

00:04:56.900 voters. That's really interesting. I guess the counterfactual might be, you say the influencers

00:05:03.060 have no influence. You know, I wrote a joke about at the time, I said, every time Tucker

00:05:07.140 Carson goes in the White House, Donald Trump bombs something. So whatever he's doing there

00:05:11.000 is clearly not working, or working, as I just said in my joke. But I also think, you know,

00:05:15.600 you see the president now openly responding to what is happening in this. So how can you really

00:05:20.940 say it's not having an influence? If he's taking a side, basically, in this big, he's coming out

00:05:27.600 against Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson in favor of Mark Levin, etc. You mean the fact that he's

00:05:33.180 been forced to weigh in on it shows that it matters? Well, if the president of your country

00:05:37.920 feels like it's an important thing to comment on.

00:05:40.300 I mean, President Trump is a little bit, you know.

00:05:42.740 He talks about a lot of things.

00:05:44.360 Yeah, yeah.

00:05:44.740 You know.

00:05:45.280 But still, I think you have to concede that clearly it has risen to such prominence that

00:05:52.420 even the president is talking about it.

00:05:54.040 I mean, for any other president, that would be true.

00:05:57.300 I'm sorry, but Trump talks a lot of shit.

00:05:59.180 Like, he just talks about whatever he's thinking about.

00:06:02.500 I think the reason he weighed in is because, you know, when Tucker Carlson had Nick Fuente

00:06:07.900 on his show. There was a huge backlash on the right, a closing of ranks around him in a way

00:06:14.420 that you would never see on the left. When Kevin Roberts, the head of Heritage, a legacy

00:06:19.820 conservative institution, came out in support of Carlson, there was a closing of ranks against

00:06:26.460 Roberts, a mass, mass exodus from Heritage. You had Republican senator after senator after

00:06:35.040 congressperson coming out and saying this is unacceptable this is not who we are this is not

00:06:38.340 who our voters are this is not what they want in a way that you would never see on the left

00:06:42.960 the only person who refused to do that happens to be the vice president of the united states who's

00:06:49.320 very close with Tucker Carlson and I think that the president is trying to address that issue

00:06:54.700 which is an issue of great concern to a lot of people on the right in terms of there being this

00:06:59.700 one exception to what is a rule at this point. I can't tell you how many senators have texted me

00:07:06.300 privately and said, I just do not know what's happening here with Tucker Carlson. He was such

00:07:10.380 an institution. I mean, he was good to me personally. This has been heartbreaking for me.

00:07:14.520 He put me on the map in many ways. He had me on his show on Fox News. I feel very grateful to him

00:07:18.920 still. But this is just so divorced from where the average Republican voter, MAGA person,

00:07:27.080 Trump supporter is at, what they want their domestic policy and their foreign policy to

00:07:31.180 look like. Okay. But within your answer is something, and I'm, back to you, as you know,

00:07:36.320 I'm stress testing your argument in order to understand it better, right? Oh my God. Yeah.

00:07:40.980 Cool. All right. Good. I love the debate. I'm just so, I'm so used to- If you go easy on me,

00:07:47.020 that's bad on me. Yeah. Because then I'm not going to convince anybody. So, you know. Okay.

00:07:51.660 Well, let's try again then. I mean, within your answers contain something which, you know,

00:07:55.640 I've been thinking about for a long time because I think it's very clear to anyone paying attention

00:08:00.040 that the vice president and the president come from very different political points of view.

00:08:07.080 And it's very clear that J.D. Vance is very, very clever and he's very cleverly saying all the right

00:08:13.340 things now so that he can then divorce himself from the Trump project. Is that fair?

00:08:17.340 It's very astute analysis of what is happening. Right. So if I wanted to put distance between

00:08:23.640 myself and, say, the war in Iran, what I would say is we have the best president in the history

00:08:28.940 of this country. I'm with the president. The president knows what he's doing. The president,

00:08:33.920 you know, yes, of course, we've had foreign wars that have gone badly, but we didn't have such a

00:08:37.920 smart president back then. The president, the president, the president, and all the time you're

00:08:41.360 doing this and sort of leaning out of show. 100%. Right? It's very clever if you're in that

00:08:47.060 position. But the fact that the vice president, and frankly, let's be honest, the heir apparent.

00:08:52.440 Oh, here we go.

00:08:53.820 This is going to be interesting as well.

00:08:55.700 I mean, I think the heir apparent, from what people say to me, you'll know better, represents the Tucker Carlson wing of this conversation.

00:09:05.620 Isn't that in and of itself evidence that this is actually a real divide within manga?

00:09:09.820 So first of all, I would say there is daylight between Tucker Carlson and J.D. Vance.

00:09:14.160 I think it's not really fair to say that they are identical in their foreign policy.

00:09:18.060 J.D. Vance is pro-Israel.

00:09:19.420 He has said that many times.

00:09:21.200 He's not an isolationist.

00:09:23.080 He just has a higher bar for foreign intervention.

00:09:27.780 It's his view that that is where the young people are,

00:09:31.540 the energy is at, the MAGA energy is out.

00:09:33.780 In my view, he spends too much time on Twitter,

00:09:35.740 which is why he thinks that.

00:09:38.020 Now, on the one hand, yeah, he's the vice president, right?

00:09:41.520 What he thinks matters.

00:09:42.880 But on the other hand, as the polling shows,

00:09:46.100 the fact that he's hedging his bets right now

00:09:48.140 does not mean that he's actually more aligned with where the base is at.

00:09:52.440 But I totally agree with you about what his intention is right now.

00:09:55.860 I just don't agree with what it signifies.

00:09:57.940 I do think that he will not be the nominee

00:10:01.420 if he cannot distance himself from someone like Tucker Carlson in time.

00:10:05.620 I know a lot of Republicans who this is a deal-breaker for them.

00:10:09.500 And I know a lot of Democrats who would very happily vote for Marco Rubio.

00:10:13.700 So I just think this notion that he's the heir apparent is totally false.

00:10:17.180 It's obvious Trump doesn't see it that way. He wants a robust, you know, he likes a fight,

00:10:23.020 you know, an apprentice, right? He doesn't want a coronation. He wants to see them duke it out,

00:10:27.240 which is very healthy for the nation. Again, something you don't see on the left anymore.

00:10:32.200 So I recognize what you're saying. I don't want to sound like I'm saying he's insignificant. He

00:10:37.440 is the vice president, but I think his analysis is wrong. And Batya, are you concerned when you

00:10:43.180 look at young people, the rising tide of anti-Semitism, which I think is pretty undeniable

00:10:48.420 at this point. I'm shocked when I talk to young people about the way that they see Jewish people

00:10:53.640 in Israel in particular. Is that a concern? It's not to me. I mean, the polling on the right has

00:10:58.740 not changed. In fact, a new NBC poll shows that Republicans are more supportive of Israel now

00:11:04.780 than they were in 2013. It went up from 67% to 69%. Young people tend to be leftists. And

00:11:12.700 We are seeing right now that there is a lot of sort of right coding among the young people.

00:11:19.080 But that tendency to see systemic problems, to blame your failures on a larger, you know, institutional problem, to be anti-establishment, that's what young people do.

00:11:32.640 A lot of the people you guys will end up talking to are young people in college.

00:11:37.400 And young people in college especially tend to end up being Democrats.

00:11:42.660 Whatever they're telling you, you know,

00:11:43.900 who they're voting for now or what have you,

00:11:45.720 I just don't see that as the future of the right.

00:11:48.360 You look at polling from Turning Point USA, for example,

00:11:51.260 87% see Israel as an ally, 72% call themselves pro-Israel.

00:11:56.280 So I just think that we're misreading this.

00:11:58.480 The average conservative does not go to college

00:12:00.980 and therefore doesn't hate Israel and doesn't hate the Jews.

00:12:04.120 And I would even say further, I mean,

00:12:06.120 you do have to separate anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism.

00:12:08.780 Absolutely. Yeah, it's very important.

00:12:10.480 It's very important.

00:12:11.620 People on the left who are anti-Israel don't think Israel has a right to exist.

00:12:16.540 People on the right who are anti-Israel don't think Israel has a right to our taxpayer dollars.

00:12:21.360 Like that is a completely different thing.

00:12:23.520 You ask young conservatives who are anti-Israel, do you think Israel has a right to exist?

00:12:27.780 Of course.

00:12:29.300 They just are anti-foreign aid.

00:12:31.760 They're sick of being dragged down by the needs of other countries whose benefit they can't see.

00:12:37.640 And honestly, I think that's a conversation we should be absolutely having.

00:12:40.640 I think Israel has been hurt by the foreign aid that we give them more than it's been helped.

00:12:45.300 Its own military industrial complex has suffered.

00:12:47.400 We've gotten a lot out of it.

00:12:48.840 But if our elected officials have not made that case to young people, it is not on them to give the benefit of the doubt on something like that when they can't afford homes.

00:12:56.320 That is a legitimate argument.

00:12:57.820 It's a good argument.

00:12:59.120 So it's just a very different tenor when you get into it a little bit more.

00:13:03.520 I guess the thing that has skewed the way that I see this issue and a real concern of mine is the growing rise in anti-Semitic terrorist attacks that we've seen.

00:13:13.940 I think it was only a couple of weeks ago. This could have been one of the most awful terrorist attacks in history on the synagogue.

00:13:20.780 I think it was in Michigan. And thankfully, the man was incompetent and it didn't work out.

00:13:27.840 But the reality is, is you're seeing these attempts happening again and again and again.

00:13:33.520 Something that occurred to me as I was watching with horror

00:13:37.260 that situation unfold, nobody for a second thought

00:13:41.660 that it was a white supremacist who drove into that synagogue.

00:13:44.800 No one.

00:13:46.300 It was a Muslim. 1.00

00:13:48.140 There's a global wave of Islamic terrorism. 1.00

00:13:51.640 I totally grant you that. 1.00

00:13:53.640 America suffers from it a lot less than other countries, 1.00

00:13:56.040 I think, because the Muslims who move here

00:13:57.780 tend to be middle class.

00:13:59.680 They tend to assimilate much better

00:14:02.220 because they are middle class, because America is the golden of Medina, as we call it,

00:14:06.980 the golden land where people sort of find their way into the nation.

00:14:11.700 So we're suffering from this a lot less than Europe, a lot less than Canada.

00:14:15.660 But it is a problem. I wouldn't say that that's an American problem, though.

00:14:19.440 Certainly not a right wing problem. It's a left wing problem.

00:14:21.780 But also as well, I mean, you're saying that it's, you know, it's a problem,

00:14:27.160 but it seems to be growing all the time.

00:14:28.960 I'm like, when we were in Austin last week, we got told, and I wasn't aware of it at the time,

00:14:34.480 that there was a shooter with a t-shirt, with a pro-Islamic sentiment, or pro-Islamist sentiment,

00:14:40.440 I should say, rather. And you go, this is happening, seems to happen more and more and more.

00:14:45.180 The attempted nail bomb in New York. This is a very real concern. And as someone from the UK,

00:14:51.420 unless America starts to talk about it honestly, these things can spiral.

00:14:56.080 And what's even more horrific is that the five Islamic terrorist attacks that happened

00:15:01.380 in March, every single one of them was by a naturalized U.S. citizen.

00:15:07.580 This is horrifying, and this is a conversation I'm not sure we're ready to have, but this 0.99

00:15:13.320 is an immigration problem. 0.99

00:15:15.080 And the open border side, there was this amazing clip, I'm sure you saw it, so the IEDs that 0.75

00:15:22.160 didn't explode by the grace of God in New York City by these two young sort of ISIS wannabe 0.78

00:15:26.740 immigrants, children of immigrants to the United States. I think they too were naturalized because 0.85

00:15:32.740 their parents, they were, they're 18 and 19 and their parents came here 10 and 15 years ago. So

00:15:36.660 I believe they're also naturalized citizens. They were at a counter protest to an anti-Muslim protest.

00:15:44.840 So these guys showed up to protest Mamdani and the Muslim takeover of New York. I find that hateful.

00:15:50.760 For people listening, you're using inverted commas, the Muslim takeover, right? 0.99

00:15:55.360 It is protected speech, hateful protected speech. 0.99

00:15:59.080 So there was a big leftist protest that organized to oppose them,

00:16:03.200 and these two young ISIS wannabe terrorists showed up with bombs

00:16:07.160 to throw the bombs at the far-right protesters.

00:16:11.360 And the footage of the moment that the bomb was thrown is incredible,

00:16:16.280 and I urge everybody to look it up.

00:16:18.480 You have a left-wing protester on a megaphone saying, I was born in New York and every person is welcome here.

00:16:26.840 And as he finishes saying here, the ISIS team uses his body as leverage to jump over him and literally throw the bomb.

00:16:37.760 You don't live in New York. You're coming to New York to tell people who belongs in New York and who doesn't belong in New York.

00:16:46.240 we were born i was we were pulling in ways in new york and we want everyone here to stay in new york

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00:18:23.720 that's the problem yeah that that's the problem right there is the useful idiots of the left

00:18:38.600 with their open border policy who do not understand what a nation is

00:18:43.120 and why it's worth protecting, and then the people willing to take advantage of that

00:18:47.140 and cause immense amounts of suffering.

00:18:50.960 I think you make a very good point.

00:18:52.520 And actually, one of the things, when we were on Rogan, I kind of said this,

00:18:55.360 and I think I don't understand why.

00:18:58.300 Actually, I do understand because we saw it in the UK and in Europe.

00:19:01.840 Basically, your media will pretend there isn't a problem until it's too late.

00:19:05.360 That's what's going to happen here.

00:19:06.280 because you've had actually a sequence of Islamist terrorist attacks in this country,

00:19:13.460 the shooting in Austin, the synagogue attack, the nail bombs, and others,

00:19:17.580 and they are not being covered at a national level like a real problem.

00:19:21.540 And that's exactly what we had in the UK, and that's exactly what we had in Europe.

00:19:25.060 You just pretend there isn't a problem, and then you get to a point you actually can't do anything about it.

00:19:30.380 But just coming back to our discussion and stress testing the arguments more,

00:19:35.360 I mean, one of the things that we're recording this, it'll go out in a couple of weeks, so who knows what else would have happened with the war on Iran.

00:19:42.900 My big concern is whatever you think about this war and the reasons for it, I think if it goes badly, the narrative about this was Israel's war will only get stronger.

00:19:56.820 And I think Israel will end up being blamed for this war, especially if it doesn't go very well.

00:20:02.540 If it goes well for the United States, President Trump will get all the credit.

00:20:06.380 I think if it goes badly, Israel is going to get all the blame, don't you think?

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00:21:53.060 trigonometry. To me, it is so clear that this war is about energy dominance,

00:22:00.820 making America the global superpower again that it once was. It's about China. 0.73

00:22:09.060 It's not really even about the Middle East. It's so clear that Saudi Arabia was an equal force

00:22:16.580 pushing this, that the Qataris now are on board. We're starting to think about the Abraham Accords 0.97

00:22:23.780 expanding immeasurably. It's so obvious. And the fact that Iran made the dumb decision 0.98

00:22:34.300 to actually attack the UAE more than Israel, the whole concept of what the Arab street is, 0.64

00:22:42.200 is, it's just over. I mean, when you think about what Trump has managed to accomplish with these 0.62

00:22:47.660 strikes, isolating China from 20% of its oil, I mean, they simply cannot afford to take Taiwan

00:22:54.720 anymore, literally can't afford it. I was with you until there. Sorry to interrupt about you, 0.96

00:23:00.120 because I agree with you that, yes, of course it's true. But the thing is, that's not what

00:23:05.240 people talk about, right? People don't know any of the stuff that you're saying, that it was actually

00:23:09.100 as much the Gulf Arabs that wanted President Trump to do this as Israel.

00:23:14.660 So if you get your news from Twitter and you live in a foreign country,

00:23:19.160 this is not a prevalent narrative.

00:23:22.240 But if you sit in a bar in, you know, the middle of America,

00:23:26.320 you're going to hear regular people like plumbers and electricians 0.94

00:23:30.380 and truck drivers be like, Iran, you mean the people who took our hostages 0.97

00:23:33.840 who, like, want to wipe us off the face of the planet? 0.78

00:23:37.880 Iran, which gives all its oil to China. 0.75

00:23:40.460 Like, you will hear this stuff

00:23:42.060 from people who just have a much more intuitive sense

00:23:47.400 of who the good guys are and who the bad guys are

00:23:49.920 and don't have their brains scrambled

00:23:51.760 by the online digital incentives

00:23:55.180 of producing content for platforms

00:23:58.300 that are available to two billion Muslims

00:24:01.220 who are desperate for high-quality content 1.00

00:24:04.380 delivered by bombshells

00:24:06.580 that are like, you know, anti-Israel, right?

00:24:08.760 Hold on, so are you saying, I mean,

00:24:12.140 if you look at the biggest new media outlets in America,

00:24:17.900 they, as you said yourself, they would all, I think,

00:24:20.560 be anti-Israel and have these narratives,

00:24:24.300 you know, Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, et cetera.

00:24:26.740 Are you saying their audience is Muslims?

00:24:30.280 I'm saying that a lot of the audience is Muslims,

00:24:33.300 we know that, a lot of the audience is, 0.80

00:24:34.960 Like Nick Fuentes, there was a study that found that 50% of his engagement is foreign bots.

00:24:39.380 So we have data backing this up.

00:24:41.520 But also we know, even more importantly, that 80% of Americans who voted for Donald Trump, who get their news from podcasts, support the war in Iran and support the U.S.-Israel alliance.

00:24:55.540 So meaning it's kind of going in one ear and out the other.

00:24:58.360 Even the people who get their news from Tucker Carlson

00:25:00.920 totally disagree with him on this issue,

00:25:03.040 no matter how many times he says it's Israel's war.

00:25:05.780 Does that make sense to you? 0.97

00:25:07.140 Of course.

00:25:08.060 How?

00:25:08.880 How much content do you watch that you vehemently disagree with?

00:25:12.740 Oh, I watch a lot of content that I vehemently disagree with.

00:25:15.300 Yeah, fair, because you are in this game.

00:25:17.080 No, I'll tell you why.

00:25:17.880 Because I think, you know, with the mainstream media,

00:25:21.080 you know, if you're sort of a college-educated person

00:25:23.340 who's watching MSNBC and it makes you feel superior

00:25:25.860 or to your neighbor, the Republican dork

00:25:27.860 who watches Fox News, right?

00:25:29.760 You take everything they say as fact, okay?

00:25:33.380 When you're getting your news from a podcaster,

00:25:36.320 I think, you know, your instinct when you hear something is,

00:25:39.780 huh, that's interesting, I wonder if it's true.

00:25:42.480 I just think that people are not, like,

00:25:45.360 people on the left have this fantasy

00:25:47.020 that people on the right consume content

00:25:49.000 in the way that people on the left want their content to be consumed,

00:25:51.940 like as, you know, like Torah, LaMotion, Misenai,

00:25:55.340 Like, is it just this, like, you know, the Bible handed to Moses' truth?

00:25:59.460 It just doesn't work that way.

00:26:00.980 People are much more skeptical because they're getting their news from new media.

00:26:05.640 But, yeah, I mean, that's what the polling is.

00:26:07.360 I was very delighted to see that.

00:26:09.380 The majority of Candace Owens listeners, podcaster, audience, pro-Israel, study from Ruffini.

00:26:19.200 He's a good guy.

00:26:20.040 Echelon Insights.

00:26:20.840 They're no joke, you know?

00:26:21.860 so i i feel like pretty sanguine about all of this i i i don't get how because it's entertaining

00:26:29.160 it's just entertainment okay but the thing is like anecdotally obviously anecdotally is

00:26:35.160 not statistics statistics isn't always necessarily that reliable either in my experience but

00:26:39.900 we know we have met we don't know them personally necessarily lots of people i mean francis keeps

00:26:45.600 going on dates with girls who who watch candace owens that sounded like an accusation it keeps

00:26:50.580 going on I want to hear sorry the whole show put on politics over to you man over to me this is so

00:26:56.580 interesting oh right this is taking on a sinister turn anyway but yeah I you go on I go on dates

00:27:04.660 and then they go oh I'm really into politics I'm like great like Candace Owens I'm like yeah I like

00:27:10.980 comedy too uh and then invariably what happens is but they don't see it as entertainment per se

00:27:19.000 they see her and this is very interesting as being a kind of investigator who who goes down

00:27:26.880 these kind of rabbit holes and leaves in order to get to the truth and a lot of them when you

00:27:32.460 talk to them about Palestine is Palestine then genocide and that's where the day ends because I

00:27:38.420 go well what do you mean by genocide it gets cold and I go check please but in all seriousness

00:27:42.900 Francis, that's so sweet

00:27:45.480 Is it?

00:27:46.300 It's a lot to me

00:27:47.120 What? The fact that I cockblock myself over Palestine 1.00

00:27:50.080 It's getting old 1.00

00:27:53.080 You're good in the sack, you know

00:27:54.700 But would you call them

00:27:56.760 Are they on the right or on the other left?

00:27:58.420 Some of them are on the right

00:27:59.360 I would say centre-right in terms of things like economics

00:28:01.800 In terms of things like the way that the country should be run

00:28:05.080 In terms of culture

00:28:06.100 If you talk to them about, for example, the trans issue 1.00

00:28:09.000 In no way are they progressive or liberal

00:28:10.780 But when it comes to Israel

00:28:13.260 And maybe it's a UK thing

00:28:15.140 I don't know

00:28:15.600 But I've actually found it quite shocking

00:28:17.360 Oh, this is in the UK?

00:28:18.740 Yeah

00:28:18.960 Oh, you guys are screwed

00:28:20.980 I mean, I'm not going to defend

00:28:22.720 No, no, no, no

00:28:23.720 But the challenge to your argument that I'm making

00:28:26.280 And using Francis' example

00:28:28.080 Is the idea that people watch this shit for entertainment

00:28:30.660 Oh

00:28:31.220 And they don't buy into it

00:28:32.300 Oh, sorry, I only meant here

00:28:33.460 I am not defending any other country

00:28:34.440 But why would here be any different to the UK?

00:28:36.680 That's my whole point in my book

00:28:38.400 And my whole point in my

00:28:39.420 like that's it just is it just is the first jew to step foot on american soil the first thing he did

00:28:47.020 was sue an official for insulting him and he won forget about jews i'm talking about erica kirk

00:28:52.860 till kill charlie kirk these women believe it yes the thing that makes francis refuse to go

00:28:58.300 to bed with a woman who says free palestine i don't think he refuses i think it's them that

00:29:02.860 they refuse me i see it i see it it's like that's the difference between men and women yeah i see

00:29:09.480 it's like you know we agree to disagree they don't and i don't learn my lesson do you not think 0.92

00:29:15.980 it's a little i'm just asking the question and i respect your view a lot but do you not think

00:29:21.220 you're being a little bit wishful thinking here in the this idea that people don't take the stuff

00:29:26.640 serious give me some data i'm i every day i'm like i that is my biggest fear i am i just a

00:29:32.720 polly and i am am i just like atrociously like like like unbelievably committed to this country

00:29:40.160 jingoistic to the nth degree about like american supremacism and that this is the greatest country

00:29:46.100 on earth unsurpassed i am but that doesn't mean that every day i'm not reading the polls and

00:29:50.140 waiting to see give me date like the fact that you're saying is it not just wishful thinking

00:29:53.520 that's not data give me the evidence you're bringing me the evidence i'm saying well it's

00:29:58.080 not that that evidence isn't this that isn't all the evidence backs up my insane jingoism that this

00:30:03.600 country is absolutely exceptional in the history of humanity well i'm not questioning this country

00:30:08.800 this country is wonderful and i'm saying what it does is is when candace owens holds up a book that

00:30:13.740 says the talmudic jew people are like i'm out you know but they still watch and they don't take 0.97

00:30:21.180 I watch a lot of stuff for fun. 1.00

00:30:23.300 I'm sorry, I will admit it.

00:30:24.600 There are things that I hate watch

00:30:25.860 that are, like, you know, too extreme for me,

00:30:27.840 but I chuckle.

00:30:30.360 Patia comes out as a fan of Nick Fuentes.

00:30:32.580 Yeah.

00:30:34.060 I mean, we can all admit he's funny, right?

00:30:36.080 He is a funny guy.

00:30:37.260 I know a lot of Jews who watch it

00:30:40.440 and think he's funny. 1.00

00:30:41.560 They're like, ha-ha, ha.

00:30:43.460 Like, they're not agreeing with him.

00:30:45.860 I know a lot of young Jews, guys,

00:30:47.840 who are like, he's a funny guy, you know?

00:30:50.000 enjoy the content and it doesn't mean that they agree with it we don't agree with him about the

00:30:55.320 jews obviously i don't watch him by the way he was he's not the one i was thinking about because

00:30:59.000 you know the jokes are not for my age group but

00:31:01.820 that's that's a very politically way correct way of putting it but what's interesting is

00:31:10.940 i think what you're going to see because of this war is there's going to be a refocus on israel

00:31:17.800 and already you're starting to see people talking about it as Israel's war

00:31:22.120 and the longer it carries on, I think the more negative people

00:31:26.540 are going to view the war.

00:31:27.920 Maybe. I think the opposite is going to happen.

00:31:30.680 I think Trump's going to get out soon.

00:31:33.280 He understands that this was a huge political risk.

00:31:36.360 He does not want to lose the House in the midterms.

00:31:38.120 He knows he's got like a week left.

00:31:39.740 He's got, you know, maybe 10, 12 days left.

00:31:41.640 So by the time this episode comes out, this should have already happened then

00:31:45.500 because this episode will go out in a couple of weeks.

00:31:47.800 So, hopefully, as you're watching this or listening to this,

00:31:51.040 from your perspective, he's already ended it, right?

00:31:53.760 I think probably.

00:31:56.040 Look, has Trump ever been wrong about his base?

00:31:59.780 He's not.

00:32:01.100 I mean, the Epstein files.

00:32:02.660 Wrong.

00:32:03.760 Because he was talking about not releasing them,

00:32:05.960 and then he called the people in the MAGA base stupid.

00:32:10.400 There was that fallout.

00:32:11.320 Nobody cares.

00:32:12.580 Nobody cares about Jeffrey Epstein. 0.74

00:32:14.240 This is another thing that the podcast world was obsessed with because, again, two billion Muslims would love to hear about Jews being pedophiles, you know?

00:32:23.860 But it was nothing.

00:32:25.240 There's nothing in the files to implicate anybody else of any criminal wrongdoing except Jeffrey Epstein, which Trump knew.

00:32:30.700 What about our nonce?

00:32:32.360 Prince Andrew.

00:32:33.080 Alleged nonce.

00:32:33.780 What about Prince Andrew?

00:32:35.000 Oh, selling secrets.

00:32:36.420 You see how the media tried to make it sound like the crime there was like a sex crime, but it wasn't, right?

00:32:42.040 It's a, it's, it's an, it was, he was, he's accused of giving secrets to him, right?

00:32:46.380 But he's also in a photo with like 17 year old girls.

00:32:49.360 But that's not why he was arrested.

00:32:50.700 No, I'm not talking about arrested.

00:32:52.280 I think there is the things you can criminally prosecute someone for.

00:32:56.640 And then there's like, why are all these people on that island?

00:33:00.160 Because rich people like to hang out with rich people. 1.00

00:33:03.620 And hookers. 1.00

00:33:05.520 But if they weren't underage, there's no crime. 0.91

00:33:09.020 Like the whole.

00:33:09.560 Do we know they weren't underage?

00:33:10.840 We know that the, I mean, show me again.

00:33:13.460 There's 3 million documents have been released.

00:33:15.400 That's only half of the ones that are there.

00:33:17.060 Okay.

00:33:17.420 So why haven't the other 3 million been released?

00:33:21.380 See, this to me is like, okay, like.

00:33:24.520 I'm just asking questions.

00:33:26.120 I know.

00:33:26.720 All of the crimes are in the, again, I could be wrong.

00:33:29.140 I could be wrong.

00:33:29.780 I'm very open to being wrong.

00:33:30.920 But I think Michael Tracy really nailed it on this.

00:33:33.060 If he was a skeptic from the beginning and was like, you know, like, it's always like,

00:33:37.720 oh, the next tranche will have all the crimes we promised you 0.78

00:33:40.500 that he was, you know, that Israel was using him 0.67

00:33:42.120 to blackmail heads of state into being pro-Israel 0.50

00:33:44.880 by having them have sex with underage girls

00:33:46.920 when it's just like, you know, no evidence of a list

00:33:50.360 of a blackmail, of a nothing.

00:33:53.760 I mean, the counter-argument to your point is

00:33:56.040 the Queen did pay, I think, £12 million to Virginia Guffrey

00:33:59.600 to essentially make the case go away.

00:34:01.980 But Virginia Guffrey admitted to lying on multiple occasions. 0.79

00:34:06.480 She had to settle with Alan Dershowitz out of court because she accused him of lying.

00:34:13.500 I mean, she accused him of lying and he forced her to admit that she was lying.

00:34:18.480 Not to speak ill of the dead, but she made up a lie.

00:34:20.920 Yeah, I don't know how qualified we are to debate the Epstein thing.

00:34:24.240 Yeah, no, and I don't find it interesting.

00:34:25.820 Because I actually, for that very reason, I've never found it super interesting.

00:34:30.340 You're right.

00:34:31.340 We all know some wealthy people and they do like to hang out together.

00:34:34.420 and some of them do like to do it with young women there and whatever i don't mean underage

00:34:39.220 women but you know some of them i try and stay away from those people personally but

00:34:43.160 um i will just tell you like an anecdote that i think really sums this up but i was sitting in

00:34:48.360 my local bar you know a lot of like it's a cop bar a lot of cops like you know firefighters just

00:34:53.120 working class dudes and one guy came over to me you know he follows the news pretty closely

00:34:57.540 and he said to this was over the summer and he was like all right who is jeffrey epstein again

00:35:03.360 again and why do all the podcasters want me to care about this guy like this is a very far right

00:35:08.600 guy trump three times like mega mega mega could care less about this and suddenly all the podcasts

00:35:15.380 he listens to are like obsessively talking about it didn't make him obsessed with it it made him

00:35:19.520 go to bati the journalist you know to be like why won't they shut up about this okay fair so let's

00:35:24.780 come back to the war so you say that there's a week left essentially before trump exit sorry to

00:35:32.400 be a pain. I'm just reminding everyone that this episode won't go out for a couple of weeks.

00:35:36.400 Before he starts to lose a lot more, a lot of the support he has right now.

00:35:40.460 Yes. But I mean, that's going to be a real challenge, isn't it? Because if you're looking

00:35:46.260 at what's going on with the Strait of Hormuz, you know, the blockades, the fact that petroleum's

00:35:51.900 not being allowed, the oil is not being allowed to get through, other important resources aren't

00:35:57.380 being allowed to get through i mean we are approaching crisis point aren't we um i don't

00:36:03.300 see it that way i think it's going really well for america and israel okay tell us how um they've

00:36:09.140 basically taken out iran's entire ballistic missile program um they've taken out their

00:36:15.660 ability to do what the goal here was to it's been marco rubio's view for at least five years now

00:36:23.300 that what they were trying to do was to build a nuclear program and then surround that with a kind

00:36:27.200 of protective mechanism of ballistic missiles

00:36:29.480 so that anybody trying to get them off the nuclear path,

00:36:33.360 it would be too costly to do that.

00:36:35.620 So they were doing that, and then, of course,

00:36:37.160 they always had the Strait of Hormuz in their back pocket.

00:36:39.220 They knew that they could just shut that down.

00:36:40.580 That, for them, is, like, the last resort, the only...

00:36:44.740 And we see now that's the only card they have left in their pocket,

00:36:47.320 so they're playing it.

00:36:48.800 But I just read this morning that the UK is offering now to help...

00:36:53.280 Trump is trying to cobble together an international force

00:36:57.000 in order to basically take that last remaining card away from them.

00:37:01.480 The leadership of the Iranian Guard is decimated.

00:37:05.880 The new Ayatollah is in a coma.

00:37:07.980 The ballistic missiles are gone.

00:37:09.940 It seems to me like it's going really well. 0.54

00:37:12.920 And the question is just how do they get that 60% enriched uranium out of Iran?

00:37:17.500 And the fact that Putin offered to do it and Trump said no

00:37:20.360 suggests to me that he feels very confident about their chances of,

00:37:25.260 you know striking a deal with a new moderate leadership in the near future i could be very

00:37:31.220 wrong about that where do you get new moderate leadership when you're bombing a country

00:37:35.540 where do you get it what do you mean if someone bombed america to get rid of donald trump because

00:37:43.140 there was anti-ice protests would the people who are anti-trump rise up and overthrow his regime

00:37:49.460 or would they go, America's been attacked, we need to fight back?

00:37:53.980 You think that the Iranian people are going to side with Ayatollah because Trump took it out?

00:37:57.800 I don't think they're going to side with Ayatollah.

00:37:59.400 What I think is the 30,000 people who were willing to challenge the regime got killed.

00:38:04.840 And what you're left with now is a country that is, A, being attacked,

00:38:08.660 and B, lacks that passionate counter-regime force.

00:38:14.780 and on top of that

00:38:16.720 when a country is attacked

00:38:19.120 people tend to rally around

00:38:20.340 I mean that's what they do

00:38:21.240 it's what America did on 9-11 0.79

00:38:22.740 it's what countries do all the time 1.00

00:38:25.580 it's what the Ukrainians did

00:38:26.820 when they were attacked by Russia 0.89

00:38:27.920 so I am totally open 1.00

00:38:33.280 and actually very hopeful

00:38:34.240 because where I am as we sit here today

00:38:37.640 by the time this episode goes out

00:38:40.100 probably a different place

00:38:41.080 is your point about, you know,

00:38:46.140 when has President Trump made mistakes?

00:38:48.200 I think up to this point,

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00:40:49.480 That's not what I said. I didn't say, do you agree with it?

00:40:51.660 I said, when has he been wrong about the base?

00:40:53.540 The base, the base, right.

00:40:54.500 But the base may turn very quickly if it turns out that this is not a quick get in, get out, successful operation.

00:41:02.400 but rather a protracted engagement that does in the end mean actually if you want to get that

00:41:09.860 nuclear material you have to put boots on the ground. I totally agree but I don't think he

00:41:13.660 will do that. No I don't think he will do that. I think what you're pointing to is the difference

00:41:16.380 between the Israeli position and the American position. The Israelis want a full-on regime 0.87

00:41:20.120 change. Yeah. And Trump wants a Dulce Rodriguez. He wants somebody who's of the regime but going

00:41:24.720 to be nice to us. And where are you going to get one of them in an Islamic regime? Oh I mean 0.95

00:41:31.120 first of all, look at the whole gulf. It's full of people like that. Did you think MBS 15,

00:41:35.800 20 years ago was going to be that person? No, but he is that person. You're saying,

00:41:41.720 well, you have to give them honey to make them do this. This is sort of a Dave Smith argument,

00:41:46.060 right? If you bomb somebody, you're going to just increase the resistance to you.

00:41:49.420 I think you are, yeah. So I don't agree with that.

00:41:51.820 But did we bomb MBS into position? Did we bomb MBZ into position?

00:41:55.840 But they were not, I mean, well, first of all, in a way we did, right? 0.81

00:42:00.080 We had the war in Iraq, right? 0.93

00:42:01.520 We had the war in, we went after the people who did 9-11, right? 0.98

00:42:05.700 And then we stayed too long.

00:42:07.040 And then we, you know, the whole thing went up in smoke and it was a huge loss of life

00:42:10.440 and treasure and total waste. 0.97

00:42:12.300 You mean Afghanistan because Iraq had nothing to do with, yeah, Iraq had nothing to do with

00:42:16.880 But I think, you know, you have to understand, Trump in the, back during the war in Iraq,

00:42:22.540 war in Afghanistan, he would call in, like in 2008, 2009, like my boss remembers Trump calling

00:42:28.260 him up and being like, what are we doing there? He truly does hate war. He truly does understand

00:42:35.340 his base and he truly does understand the political and the foreign policy calculus.

00:42:40.320 Those are not separable to Donald Trump. So everything he does in terms of foreign policy

00:42:46.120 is meant to increase the safety, security and prosperity of the United States.

00:42:51.400 And you see that whether it's the tariffs and you see it, whether it's the immigration and you see it, whether it's the way that he negotiated the ceasefire in Gaza, the way that he went to his partners in the Middle East, not just Israel, but he went to the Arabs and he said, look, I'm on your side, too, and convinced them that he's on their side, too.

00:43:09.980 So he's really got a very good hand on this.

00:43:12.600 I could be totally wrong.

00:43:13.820 He could be planning to put boots on the ground.

00:43:16.060 But that just seems to me like unthinkable, given what I know about him.

00:43:19.680 I don't think it would be insane to put boots on the ground.

00:43:23.620 And for that reason, I doubt he would do it.

00:43:25.300 But I think even if we accept your framing, which is he is someone who's incredibly well

00:43:29.580 intentioned, that doesn't mean that the war in Iran will produce the results it's intended

00:43:34.660 to produce or that it will be successful.

00:43:37.320 I think he would not have gone in if he didn't have intelligence from the Israelis that there 0.96

00:43:41.040 was something there along the lines of a Dulce Rodriguez that he could reasonably be assured

00:43:47.240 would be ready to take the helm.

00:43:48.960 Now, I could be wrong.

00:43:50.440 It's quite an assumption.

00:43:51.220 I mean, what a different version of that might be, he was given intelligence, as he, we understand, was given intelligence,

00:43:58.640 that there was an opportunity to take out the entire leadership of the IRGC and the IRTOLA.

00:44:05.920 We know that three weeks before this started, he told his internal circle of advisors,

00:44:15.260 I don't want to do this unless I know it will be successful.

00:44:18.960 We know that he had enormous resistance to doing this at the wrong time.

00:44:23.680 But the success objectives, as we understand them, is to deal with the nuclear program,

00:44:28.160 to deal with the ballistic program, and at this point, regime change,

00:44:32.300 because you've killed the current regime leaders, right?

00:44:34.680 Well, it depends how you define regime change.

00:44:36.480 Regime adjustment.

00:44:37.360 Yeah.

00:44:37.960 I keep calling what happened in Venezuela regime adjustment.

00:44:40.600 So on the nuclear stuff, it's becoming very clear that in the 12-day war,

00:44:44.860 they didn't get the nuclear material, right?

00:44:48.160 Otherwise, why would we have this wall?

00:44:50.300 If we got the nuclear material back then, clearly we wouldn't have needed to do this.

00:44:54.500 Well, what they would say, I don't know, you're probably right, but what they would say is that, no, we got it then.

00:44:58.600 So they're satellite images of a shit ton of trucks leaving those facilities the day before the bombing, right?

00:45:03.180 Right, so the uranium still exists.

00:45:05.100 The enriched uranium still exists.

00:45:07.040 I also think it's fair to say, as we sit here today, who knows what will be the case by the time the satellite goes out,

00:45:13.080 that they still haven't got the nuclear material, otherwise why are they still bombing, right?

00:45:16.720 So on the nuclear stuff, we don't know what the hell is going to happen.

00:45:20.260 On the regime change stuff, I don't think we know what...

00:45:22.520 I mean, yes, we had Richard Mineta on our show break the news

00:45:25.920 that the Americans had given the Israelis a no-kill list, 0.87

00:45:29.400 which means that they have a bunch of people in mind

00:45:32.440 to be the potential new Ayatollah.

00:45:35.520 But maneuvering those people into position 0.57

00:45:37.780 and them having the ability to shut down Iran's defense

00:45:40.620 is a highly questionable thing, particularly because we know

00:45:43.960 that the people who are holding the Strait of Hormuz locked down, and by the way, it's not

00:45:48.100 actually locked down. We'll get to that. The ones that are doing that, they have complete autonomy

00:45:51.900 of control. They have standing orders from the dead Ayatollah telling them, you must continue

00:45:56.800 this irrespective of what else happens. And then on top of that, your point about this is about

00:46:01.480 China, China's still getting the oil because the Iranians are letting it through. They're not 0.97

00:46:06.520 letting Western ships and allies' ships through, but they are letting Chinese and Indian vessels

00:46:12.380 Right. So they are now, but that's actually good for us as well, because that means that the cost of gas is going to go down, right? So Trump doesn't actually, he wants China to succeed. He just wants them to stop thinking that this is going to be the Chinese century. So he wants leverage when he goes in to meet with Xi Jinping. So he wants to have control over the Strait of Hormuz before that meeting, which is why they're pushing that meeting off.

00:46:35.260 um i i don't disagree with anything you said i think it you know it's all a question of whether

00:46:39.880 he could pull it off if he can't pull it off he will start to lose support in eight ten days two

00:46:44.220 weeks whatever um so i think we're seeing the same thing and analyzing it in the same way

00:46:49.280 um i just think that he would not have done this if he didn't think that he could do it successfully

00:46:54.060 and it could still go to you know i like i said i don't disagree with i don't disagree with that

00:46:58.460 either but what i'm saying is just because someone thought they'd be successful doesn't mean that

00:47:03.240 they will be successful.

00:47:04.260 Right, totally. 0.98

00:47:05.560 She does have a pretty good track record, though. 0.60

00:47:07.380 I completely agree with that,

00:47:08.720 which is one of the reasons I've said about this,

00:47:10.640 the coin is in the air,

00:47:11.480 we don't know which way it's going to land.

00:47:13.180 However, the more time we spend in the US

00:47:15.560 and the more people we talk to who know,

00:47:18.180 I won't go into more details than that.

00:47:21.320 I mean, the phrase,

00:47:22.520 he was on a bit of a sugar rush from Venezuela,

00:47:25.200 has been used.

00:47:26.540 There is a narrative building

00:47:28.060 that actually this wasn't a deeply

00:47:29.960 strategically planned operation.

00:47:31.680 This was someone who kind of got

00:47:32.620 little bit overexcited here. Is that impossible? Nothing's impossible with Donald Trump, but that's

00:47:39.540 not what I'm seeing from his, the way that he's talking about it, the way that he's been handling

00:47:44.400 himself. He seems to feel very sure that this is going the way that they expected it to go.

00:47:49.440 They have these backup plans. I think that he saw Venezuela taking that oil, releasing it onto the

00:47:57.260 free market when it had been going to China for $15 less a barrel because it was a repayment for

00:48:02.520 Chinese loans, that that was sort of a protective mechanism with which to ensure that gas didn't get

00:48:09.640 too much more expensive. So I think this is all part of a sort of larger global, um, game that

00:48:15.740 he has, but I could be wrong. You know, it's, I don't know, Trump, I've never spoken to him. I

00:48:20.480 don't, I mean, I, this is just my analysis from what I'm seeing, the way that he's talking about

00:48:25.220 the way he's handling it i i do think that um at the state of the union um i think that this is

00:48:33.780 just like my personal analysis but um i think he looked at the democrats refusing to stand up for

00:48:39.700 all of these heroes and he just was filled with disgust and i think he thinks that it's beneath

00:48:45.140 him to fight people like that anymore like i think his his how can you fight with people how can you

00:48:51.240 think it is a noble goal to fight people who will not stand for a seven-year-old girl whose

00:48:58.660 brain was bashed in by an illegal. And I think that there was, you know, you could see it in

00:49:03.080 his face, like just this, like, this is our opposition, really? And I think maybe that's

00:49:07.980 why he's so focused on the foreign policy piece. But I think, again, you know, he's got a lot of

00:49:12.480 grandchildren, and I think he knew this was a political risk, and he took it anyway. And he

00:49:18.960 took it even though he knew that this might hurt him. He said this. He said, of course, I knew it

00:49:23.140 might hurt me politically. I had to do the right thing. Again and again, he proves the people who

00:49:27.840 say, oh, he's only helping his rich friends wrong. Like, oh, everything he does is to help the

00:49:32.660 billionaires. You know, billionaires really don't like tariffs. You know, they like profits. You

00:49:36.260 know, like here again, he did something that he thought was the right thing to do, despite the

00:49:40.500 fact that it was a political risk. And I think that that is something worthy of admiration.

00:49:43.740 So let's take a step back and let's look at both America and Israel, because this is very fascinating from a military and geopolitical point of view, because they kind of have, although they're allies, they want different outcomes for this war.

00:50:00.060 So let's talk about, we've spoken about what you think the Americans want, but what do the Israelis want?

00:50:06.160 It's funny. I have I really have been surprised because Trump does seem to have brought Bibi Netanyahu to heel.

00:50:12.400 Like Netanyahu has really had his way with a lot of other presidents who found it very hard to.

00:50:18.200 Of course, Obama was able to overcome his opposition with the Iran deal.

00:50:22.280 But but Netanyahu does seem to be very much taking his orders from Trump.

00:50:27.040 But they, of course, want a deep seated regime change.

00:50:29.980 They want the protesters to win. They want their representatives in government.

00:50:33.060 They want to see a completely different Iran.

00:50:36.800 And I don't think Trump has the stomach for that.

00:50:38.860 And I don't think he has the political bandwidth for that.

00:50:42.380 So they would be, I think, willing. 0.77

00:50:44.320 Their people are much more in support of this, obviously, because they face a much more immediate threat from Iran. 0.79

00:50:50.280 When you're sitting in a bunker and they're bombing your children, like you're willing to put up with that for much longer than we are, you know, safe in America. 0.94

00:50:58.880 So I think they have a much higher appetite for this going on for longer than we do.

00:51:02.780 and they want a much deeper thing

00:51:04.520 than we would be happy to settle for.

00:51:06.880 Trump doesn't see foreign policy

00:51:09.000 through a kind of moral lens, I don't think.

00:51:11.180 He sees it through interests, you know?

00:51:14.520 He wants to create value.

00:51:16.560 He doesn't want to export our values, you know?

00:51:18.960 He's very interested in positioning us

00:51:21.780 in a way that will bear fruit

00:51:24.980 for our children and grandchildren,

00:51:26.720 but I don't think he's interested in seeing, 0.98

00:51:28.980 you know, taking a country that's, you know,

00:51:30.640 under a theocracy and then saying,

00:51:32.400 oh, no, you're not going to be a theocracy, you're not going to be a monarchy,

00:51:35.300 you're going to be a democracy or what have you.

00:51:36.760 He's not very, he has no interest in that whatsoever.

00:51:39.760 So the name that keeps getting banded around is Reza Pavlavi.

00:51:44.040 And apparently the Israelis, their dream scenario is to install him

00:51:48.560 as the de facto leader of Iran.

00:51:50.620 Transitional.

00:51:51.220 Yeah. Do you think that's likely to happen?

00:51:53.560 No.

00:51:54.740 Why not? 0.98

00:51:55.880 Because the Americans don't want it.

00:51:58.080 Exactly.

00:51:58.480 Exactly. The same reason they didn't put Maria Machado

00:52:00.680 in charge of Venezuela.

00:52:02.840 Because they don't want to see a coup of the generals.

00:52:05.520 They don't want to see massive bloodshed in the streets.

00:52:07.640 They don't... We don't want, you know, a massive, like, you know,

00:52:11.140 that's just not what Trump is interested in.

00:52:13.840 And honestly, I feel... I want the protesters to win.

00:52:18.000 But I don't know that I'm willing to sacrifice our boys for that.

00:52:21.000 I just don't know that I... I don't think you can give people freedom.

00:52:24.920 I think they have to take it and win it for themselves. 0.93

00:52:26.960 And I feel the same way about the Taliban and the women. 0.65

00:52:30.000 My heart breaks for them.

00:52:31.360 It's horrible. 0.65

00:52:32.500 But you can't give people civil rights.

00:52:34.580 Their men have to be willing to fight for it. 0.76

00:52:36.680 It's a horrible, horrible thing.

00:52:38.320 But I think that's true.

00:52:40.300 And I hope that doesn't sound too heartless.

00:52:42.200 No, I don't think it does.

00:52:43.560 And I agree with it.

00:52:45.060 You know, someone who's Venezuelan, origin, everyone can now drink.

00:52:49.060 That's what we do.

00:52:50.460 But yeah, I agree.

00:52:51.500 You know, you have to be able to overthrow the government.

00:52:55.040 Otherwise, it doesn't work.

00:52:56.960 We've seen it time and time and time again.

00:52:59.420 This utopian way of thinking, particularly when you apply it to the Middle East,

00:53:02.940 unfortunately, in the case of Afghanistan, Iraq, at least a disastrous consequence.

00:53:08.060 Exactly. And I think I would go even further and say, 0.97

00:53:10.320 if the Israelis feel so strongly about this, let them put boots on the ground. 0.90

00:53:13.840 Why should we do it?

00:53:14.760 I mean, we're not the ones who are going to suffer from it, you know,

00:53:19.080 one way or the other, the way that they would.

00:53:22.100 So I kind of resent a little bit like the implication that it's our job to free the world. 0.54

00:53:29.340 And also as well, then we're looking at Israel with Lebanon and there's talks of boots on the ground in Lebanon.

00:53:35.160 And you think, well, this is an escalation.

00:53:38.100 What do you think is going to happen there? 0.72

00:53:39.960 And do you just see this as Israel thinking to themselves, this is our chance. 0.97

00:53:44.280 This is our one chance to cleanse as much as we can of the region of Islamism and these fanatical people. 0.96

00:53:53.580 I don't think so. I think that, like I said, I think Netanyahu is very much taking his cues from Trump, which I've been very heartened to see. 1.00

00:54:02.380 I don't know what the endgame in Lebanon is. I really don't quite understand the relationship between chutzpah and the government. 0.50

00:54:09.040 I never know. I find it very hard to read that, who has the power and who is in charge.

00:54:14.780 And when the government says we're in talks with the Israelis or we're against chutzpah, then they don't do much.

00:54:20.220 So I don't really understand it very much to say what the outcome is.

00:54:23.900 I think the Israelis really are just trying to protect their civilians.

00:54:28.000 And do you think there will come a point where, as happened with the war in Gaza, where the rest of the world steps in and goes, right, enough is enough now?

00:54:35.940 See, this is something that I really have noticed,

00:54:38.160 which is that there does not seem to be the same kind of hysteria online

00:54:42.380 as during the Gaza War.

00:54:45.520 Well, because you're not seeing civilians killed in those numbers,

00:54:49.140 I would imagine.

00:54:49.960 But civilians are being killed.

00:54:51.420 Not in those numbers.

00:54:52.880 But many are being killed in Lebanon and in Iran.

00:54:57.640 So you seem to have a point with all this.

00:55:00.500 What are you saying?

00:55:01.220 Well, I think that we've reached a turning point.

00:55:03.300 I think that somehow when it was Gaza versus Israel, people got so consumed by the narrative.

00:55:16.300 But now that it's the U.S. and Israel versus Iran, there is a sort of almost a bashedness in the liberal media when they seem to be sort of cheering on what is in effect the Ayatollah, even though Hamas is worse than the Ayatollah.

00:55:31.540 but um yeah it's interesting i have noticed that i do you know what i think it is i think there's

00:55:37.880 certain issues in in the media that just demence people yeah and i think palestine is one of them

00:55:46.120 i i i don't know what it is about the palestinian cause i have family in lebanon

00:55:50.940 and you they seem to be far more objective about it than people in the west who seem to lose their

00:55:59.480 minds and i i don't know what it is about that particular issue but it seems people are incapable

00:56:04.820 of being objective about it well allow me to suggest a new book on the on this exact subject

00:56:10.880 so why is palestine so dementing um i do think that it it it brings a lot of the issues 0.88

00:56:20.180 together in relief that really animate the left which is of course this worship of weakness 0.57

00:56:27.200 they worship abjection because they cannot admit that they are affluent and privileged

00:56:34.480 so they have what is basically oppression envy and when you say because i am a white person i

00:56:41.640 have no moral authority i can only have the authority to cede my power to the oppressed

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00:59:25.660 Yeah. Let's go for it. No, you go ahead. It's also as well, you look at the, I mean,

00:59:30.100 this is going to get me in trouble you look at the irish the irish have been nuts on this

00:59:35.000 i think as well it's if you see yourself as being oppressed and irish have some reason for it yeah

00:59:42.500 they do they do to be fair to them yeah then they won't stop banging on about it but yeah they do

00:59:47.440 have it you know you start to see yourself as being quasi-palestinian in a weird way totally

00:59:53.740 or talking to irish people actually it's funny because we're supposed to be like these

00:59:57.740 controversial people i have never had anyone come up to me ever in the street and say anything

01:00:02.920 critical ever except one time and that was an irish person who said oh i used to love you

01:00:08.060 and you've changed and i was like for the better he was like no

01:00:10.460 and what he was saying is basically you're you haven't gone along with the sort of you know

01:00:18.480 palestinians or oppressed people and i think for irish people it really for a lot of irish people

01:00:23.520 it seems like it just triggers the trauma that they have from the troubles and before that do

01:00:27.280 You know, in this same bar that I go to, there's this guy, shout out to Eamon, an Irish guy who, he's in his 50s, late 50s.

01:00:35.940 When I first met him at the bar, he said, oh, you're Irish.

01:00:38.920 Oh, you must have been around during the Troubles.

01:00:41.500 That must have been so difficult.

01:00:43.760 And he looked at me and he went, it's the best time of my life.

01:00:47.020 I was 15.

01:00:48.280 There were no rules.

01:00:49.560 You would get into fights whenever you wanted.

01:00:51.800 You could do whatever you wanted.

01:00:54.040 You'd be, you know, you'd get into fights with the cops,

01:00:56.040 then you'd run, and, you know, one of your friends would die.

01:00:58.440 And then the next day, you'd go and fight again.

01:01:00.580 There were no rules.

01:01:02.020 It was, he was, like, the high of being a teenage terrorist, basically.

01:01:07.260 He was like, I will never feel that again.

01:01:09.540 And I think about it all the time.

01:01:11.880 And I, it was such a, I was so, like, it just hit me really hard.

01:01:17.980 Like, there's something about that.

01:01:19.660 You're a teenage boy.

01:01:20.700 you're full of that teenage boy energy there's a fight of good guys versus bad guys everything is

01:01:27.500 permitted you're always on the right side the whole community is with you hiding you against

01:01:33.080 people who are legitimately you know it was very uh it was a great time

01:01:37.440 never heard anyone say that personally but there you go um but uh it's interesting because i i

01:01:46.720 think you make the it's something I've thought about as well because the the Palestine cause

01:01:52.220 really speaks to a lot of and one of them and I think unfortunately this is increasingly true

01:01:58.840 is really what this radical leftist worldview is about is also about justification of violence

01:02:07.020 oh yeah and so here are these poor oppressed brown people that is smart who are fighting back

01:02:14.040 and look yeah october see yeah maybe yeah yeah no rapes happen none of this happened and this

01:02:18.660 happened but really we are allowed to be violent to our oppressors we're allowed it's justified

01:02:25.900 and i think i mean you see it now all the time the the left i i i don't hesitate to say this i

01:02:32.240 francis and i really really strive to give each side the due respect and try and have a balanced

01:02:39.000 perspective on things and people will some people on the right think we're on the left people i think

01:02:42.980 on the right, whatever. But I think it's very, very clear that there is now a rhetorical structure

01:02:48.120 of justification for violence on the left. That's very deep. And you see it. And I think

01:02:53.060 the Palestine issue is where it really fundamentally takes its force, because that is why

01:02:58.100 the whole, you know, Piers Morgan, will you condemn Hamas thing became such a big deal, 0.94

01:03:02.940 because they won. Right. Because they believe that that level of violence and horrific attacks 1.00

01:03:10.320 against civilians, violence against Charlie Kirk, who's a civilian, who just speaks his mind about

01:03:17.220 an issue, is justified. So, and you're hitting on something very important, which is it's not

01:03:21.800 really about the Jews. And this is something I try to tell Jewish people a lot in America. Like,

01:03:26.340 it's not about, you're getting the white treatment, you know? They don't treat white 0.97

01:03:30.640 Christians any better than they treat you. So, stop acting like we're some oppressed minority.

01:03:34.840 We're not. We should stand proudly with the majority in this country of working-class people

01:03:39.620 who have our backs, who get the same treatment.

01:03:43.720 And I'll just tell you personally,

01:03:45.860 so I used to be woke.

01:03:46.860 This is one of my value adds,

01:03:51.340 is I can remember what it feels like to think those things.

01:03:55.540 And I remember when I would write an article

01:03:56.880 and I'd get a massive pushback from the right.

01:04:00.000 You know, if you just say, look, they hate my opinion,

01:04:03.160 and so they're attacking me because they hate my opinion,

01:04:06.160 you know, like, that doesn't feel good.

01:04:07.660 But if you say, they're coming for me because I am a Jewish woman, you get a hit and you get so much support from all the other Jewish women and all the other people who want to defend you for being, you know, a leftist Jewish woman and what have you.

01:04:22.060 Like, it creates this enormous, like, jouissance almost of being oppressed and to, like, it takes so long to be like, oh, that's freaking lame.

01:04:33.400 you put your opinion out there because you're privileged enough to have that as your job

01:04:37.360 and they don't like your opinion and so they're calling you fat and that's fine

01:04:40.720 that is okay it's not about some like you're not oppressed and it's so hard to unlearn that

01:04:49.600 because if you're like me and you spent 12 years in the in the academy imbibing this that that is

01:04:57.400 virtue. You don't get to be virtuous for saying, I will be good and not bad. You can only be

01:05:04.780 virtuous by saying, I defend people whose skin color is darker than mine, right? You learn that,

01:05:11.580 you unlearn that. And coming back to that photo of the protester who the ISIS guy used to leap

01:05:16.720 over and throw that IED, somebody had a long, I wish I remember who it was, a long tweet thread

01:05:21.800 about it where she was saying, you know, psychologically, so much of leftism is

01:05:25.560 unlearning natural instincts you know like when you see a threatening person on the street

01:05:31.020 you're not allowed to as a woman you're supposed to if that person has dark skin color you have to

01:05:36.500 unlearn the instinct to sort of try to get away from a threatening looking person you have to 0.99

01:05:41.620 walk straight towards them and lift your miniscope exactly exactly right for diversity exactly

01:05:46.920 you know and but i think this thing about justifying violence is really deep oh yeah

01:05:52.580 oh yeah i mean the the entire structure is designed to create the permission to do that

01:05:57.920 and you see the worst people online now actively encouraging yeah um and i and i think it's the

01:06:04.380 inevitable well look i've been saying this for many years if you teach people to hate their own

01:06:09.700 country eventually the consequences of that will come through so if you teach people to hate the

01:06:15.260 other side the consequences of that will come through and i think there are people on the right

01:06:19.740 certainly who teach people to hate the other side as well and we've had some of them on the show and

01:06:24.780 talk to them about it there are people who say my motivation life is i hate the left right is that

01:06:29.820 constructive probably not uh even if you disagree very strongly with the left but once you create a

01:06:36.700 justification structure violence is inevitable yeah it's inevitable and this is and this is why 0.98

01:06:41.740 palestines has a great great cause for them and but what's very funny in america i'll just say 1.00

01:06:45.740 very briefly is like one side of the political aisle is very heavily armed and the other side

01:06:52.460 has started to justify immense violence when they do that they are tacitly admitting

01:06:58.180 that the other side is not going to fight back because they know that they're not going to pick

01:07:05.480 up their ar-15s and turn them on their leftist neighbors and there's something about that that 0.72

01:07:11.020 is just unbearable in the irony of it. That one side is violent and is using the other side's

01:07:18.920 non-violence and Christian virtue in order to attack them and kill them, basically, because

01:07:25.460 they know that they will not use their arms against them. But, Batya, coming back to, I must 1.00

01:07:30.600 have missed the part of your life journey when you were woke. How did that happen? Well, I got a PhD

01:07:34.520 in English literature. Uh-huh. So, it comes with the woke stamp. It comes with the, yeah, somebody

01:07:40.040 recently asked me why did you become a leftist and it's because you you imbibe this if you get

01:07:45.120 one of these you know you spend a lot of time in the academy that's how you show that you're a good

01:07:48.900 person is you you're a leftist and of course a lot of the left is built around like compassion

01:07:54.540 the problem is is that the way that they implement that compassion incentivize

01:07:58.500 incentivize immense amounts of suffering so open borders where you have you know 30 percent of the

01:08:03.860 women making the passage through the darian gap admitting that they were raped so you can imagine

01:08:09.480 what the number actually is probably above 90 percent because they incentivize this kind of 1.00

01:08:14.800 cruelty you know and and in the name of compassion oh we should welcome in the global indigent you 0.89

01:08:19.520 know stealing from working-class americans to give limitless you know a plus health care to 0.99

01:08:25.780 illegals when their neighbor when their cleaning lady cannot afford to get her child braces you

01:08:30.580 know this kind of thing where it's like um but yeah i was i was totally woke until like 2018 0.58

01:08:35.380 And then what happened?

01:08:36.380 I feel like I told this story on the last time I was here, no?

01:08:39.540 We talked about it briefly, but tell us more.

01:08:41.620 Well, my breaking point was this 2018 study I found from Yale.

01:08:48.020 And the study found that there was a difference between how white liberals and white conservatives

01:08:52.560 talk to blacks. 0.99

01:08:53.980 And I remember I looked at the headline and I was like, ha, ha, ha, we got them, you know? 0.59

01:08:58.140 Like, then you read down and it's actually when white liberals talk to black people,

01:09:03.960 they dumbed down their vocabulary. 0.71

01:09:05.900 Like, it's called presenting lower competence.

01:09:07.860 They use words with fewer syllables 1.00

01:09:09.540 than when they talk to other whites.

01:09:11.140 And white conservatives don't do this.

01:09:13.140 And I remember looking at that and being like,

01:09:15.800 my whole world view is racist.

01:09:19.200 And I took the... I had printed it up.

01:09:20.880 I took the study. I put it in a drawer in my office.

01:09:22.640 I closed the drawer and I said,

01:09:24.080 I am not ready to deal with what this means.

01:09:25.720 I'll come back in three months.

01:09:27.280 Because it just hit me like...

01:09:29.820 I immediately recognized everybody I knew.

01:09:32.380 The whole left, the whole worldview that, you know, people of color are somehow need our beneficence in order to thrive.

01:09:41.000 Like, it's despicable.

01:09:42.820 And it was just, I was, and I called up a friend of mine, a black friend of mine.

01:09:46.200 She was like, oh, yeah, we know.

01:09:47.980 Like, we know that they do that.

01:09:49.880 Like, everybody knows that.

01:09:52.060 That was, like, the first moment I remember thinking, like, I might be wrong about everything.

01:09:56.180 Yeah.

01:09:56.960 It's so, I mean, we've talked about this ad nauseum.

01:09:59.880 But when you talk about open borders, like the old left never, you know, the left, you know, I know these are figures from the UK, but like Tony Benn.

01:10:09.200 Yeah, but Bernie Sanders. Yeah. Nobody, nobody wanted open borders because it's Clinton and Obama.

01:10:14.820 It's completely antithetical to the rights of workers. It's completely in opposition.

01:10:20.140 Obviously so. Obviously wage theft of working class Americans. 0.93

01:10:24.740 And it's because these elites would rather die than clean a toilet. So they imagine that any white person would rather die than clean a toilet. So let's bring in people from the third world, from failed socialist states to clean our toilets, who will be so grateful for the opportunity to clean our toilets.

01:10:39.680 when the truth is millions and millions of working-class Americans 0.98

01:10:42.760 get a lot of dignity from cleaning toilets

01:10:44.660 because that used to be a dignified job.

01:10:46.900 And the thing that makes it undignified

01:10:48.480 is that it doesn't pay a living wage.

01:10:50.340 Like, I always say this, like, you know,

01:10:51.860 most of us would probably rather die than be a proctologist.

01:10:54.400 I know I would, you know, like,

01:10:56.340 but we don't consider that to be an undignified job

01:10:58.940 because they make a lot of money.

01:11:00.700 And it's insane that we've just decided

01:11:03.080 that, you know, that job is disgusting but dignified, you know,

01:11:08.140 and we're going to pay them a lot of money. 0.99

01:11:09.680 why don't we have open borders for doctors? I would totally get behind that. Let's get their

01:11:14.520 wages down to $20 an hour. Our health care would be much better. No, you would never see that 0.95

01:11:19.560 because the elites protect their own. And it seems to me as well, and it goes back to the

01:11:24.060 Palestine issue, it's that the left seems to be in love with these kind of romantic myths,

01:11:30.720 which actually, when the rubber hits the road, they don't work. Yeah. And what's so funny is

01:11:36.220 now you're going to see an actual over-credentialed proletariat because AI's wiping out entry-level

01:11:42.560 white-collar jobs. This would be the perfect moment for those people with these degrees that 0.83

01:11:48.480 are worthless, who are in debt, to come together, to band together with the working class around 0.93

01:11:53.300 reasonable reforms, strong borders, you know, no more immigration, let's fund vocational training,

01:12:00.640 but they won't because they would rather die than be an electrician because they still think they 1.00

01:12:04.720 are so much better and deserve so much more than their working class neighbors and it's it's getting 0.84

01:12:11.160 to the point now where you look at the wages of an electrician or a plumber and they're far superior

01:12:17.020 they're doing great yeah to white-collar workers but that's because of trump i mean a lot of what

01:12:21.540 he did created even in the first administration uh in his first term he created a big boom for

01:12:30.060 people in the bottom 25% of wage earners whose wages went up by double the percentage of what

01:12:35.740 people in the top 25% went up by because tariffs and a closed border, a labor shortage for working

01:12:42.900 class people, for illegals, that's really good for working class wages, but it's not great for

01:12:48.060 the elites, which is why they hate them. And do you think the Dems are actually going to get on

01:12:51.540 board with this? I mean, they've gone through the woke insanity and hopefully maybe they've learned

01:12:56.020 their lesson i don't know do you think they're actually going to start to go back to what the

01:13:00.560 left used to be so the answer is no but it's not going to matter if the right elects jd vance

01:13:07.360 because we will still end up with president gavin newsom so they won't because you think

01:13:12.780 newsom will be yes but the right is not going to they always the republicans always manage to seize

01:13:18.960 defeat from the jaws of victory so it you know it's not going to matter the democrats are going

01:13:23.320 to keep getting worse and the Republicans are not going to realize, they still don't

01:13:27.120 understand why Trump is so great.

01:13:29.320 Like they do not understand what he has given the American people.

01:13:33.420 And I, yeah, I think the answer is no, but...

01:13:37.260 One of the concerns somebody expressed to us who is a skeptic of the war in Iran is

01:13:41.660 that if it goes badly, it lets the left off the hook. 0.85

01:13:45.400 Because if it goes well, it's a win.

01:13:47.900 Americans love winning.

01:13:48.900 It's wonderful.

01:13:50.220 gives the republicans a really good shot at the next election at the midterms etc but if it goes

01:13:55.960 badly the left gets let off the hook and they don't have to re-examine all the all the ways

01:14:02.160 that they got to where they got to which was defeat uh and they can just carry on as they 0.80

01:14:07.300 were before and double down on the trans and the open borders and all of that yeah it'll be very 0.99

01:14:12.460 bad if it goes badly that's a fair point well on that happy note batia we're gonna head over to

01:14:19.320 a sub stack uh with questions from our supporters but before we do what is the one thing we're not

01:14:24.360 talking about that we really should be that's such a great question um i guess i would say um

01:14:35.800 i think that in many ways the trump agenda from this second administration is attempting to

01:14:46.680 restore the thing that so many people thought was great about America, but in a way that

01:14:53.160 is very different from the American exceptionalism of the Obama era, and, of course, very different

01:14:59.240 from the American decline, I'm sorry, the American exceptionalism of the Bush era, and

01:15:03.680 then very different from the, you know, America in decline of the Obama and the Biden eras.

01:15:08.720 And he may not succeed, but the effort that he's making to make Americans feel like they

01:15:15.180 and hold their head high again is succeeding internally

01:15:20.360 in a way that I think is lost,

01:15:22.560 especially on our European allies.

01:15:27.860 And I think that's really the big story of the year.

01:15:30.700 Everything that he is trying to do is landing with the people

01:15:33.660 who most needed to hear it, the forgotten men and women

01:15:36.300 of this country who felt that everyone was being put ahead of them.

01:15:40.000 There is a sort of resurgence of patriotism and pride

01:15:43.700 and pride in masculinity and pride in being able to make things and build things and this feeling

01:15:50.140 like we're trying new things and we're going to get back. And it's a very cool time to be an

01:15:55.060 American. Always a good time to be an American, but especially now. And I think that's very much

01:15:59.600 lost on people who don't live here and who truly hate him so much that they can't get this external

01:16:06.160 perspective of what people feel like when they're walking down the streets. And with that, I will

01:16:11.240 say, God bless and protect you both. And thank you so much for having me. That's very kind of

01:16:15.660 you. Thank you. Head on over to triggerpod.co.uk where Batya is going to answer your questions.

01:16:22.480 Why do leftist liberals now push neo-racism, radical gender ideology,

01:16:26.240 and regressive antisemitism? What is it that they really want?

01:16:41.240 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - April 08, 2026

DEBATE： Are Podcasters Destroying MAGA？ - Batya Ungar-Sargon

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