TRIGGERnometry - Doctor Answers BANNED Questions About COVID

00:00:00.000 And that's why I think Omicron is the great equalizer.

00:00:03.540 Everybody's been vaccinated.

00:00:04.580 Everybody hasn't been vaccinated.

00:00:05.580 Most of them are just gonna get infected.

00:00:07.160 It's gonna take away the stigma of COVID.

00:00:09.000 It's gonna generate a lot of immunity

00:00:10.400 and it's gonna push us towards a phase

00:00:12.040 where this is more like a cold.

00:00:14.120 I've argued that we're already in the phase

00:00:16.260 where every single societal mandate

00:00:19.700 and restriction should be removed.

00:00:21.460 There should be no vaccine passports.

00:00:23.020 There should be no mandates.

00:00:24.000 There should be no mask mandates.

00:00:25.900 Every single individual can make a decision now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:37.720 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:39.180 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:40.300 And this is a show for you

00:00:41.940 if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:46.140 Our brilliant guest today is a doctor, YouTuber,

00:00:48.800 and entertainer, Dr. Zubin Damania.

00:00:51.040 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:52.620 Hey guys, nice to see you.

00:00:54.180 This is a lot of fun.

00:00:55.640 It's so good to have you on the show.

00:00:57.800 Before we get into the conversation,

00:01:00.220 let's just get the first question out of the way.

00:01:02.560 Who are you?

00:01:03.440 How are you where you are?

00:01:04.440 What has been your journey through life

00:01:05.940 that lands you here talking to us on YouTube?

00:01:09.000 This is like the hardest.

00:01:10.600 Now I'm really like intimidated

00:01:11.980 by these questions.

00:01:12.800 They're actually hard.

00:01:14.200 So my story is I'm a second generation,

00:01:18.240 first generation Indian American.

00:01:20.220 Parents came from India.

00:01:21.840 Both of them were physicians.

00:01:22.720 So I had no choice.

00:01:23.780 Like I was going into medicine.

00:01:24.760 It was like, you know, being named Jeeves or something.

00:01:27.300 Like you're gonna be a butler.

00:01:28.280 There's no choice in life.

00:01:29.680 So I ended up drifting into medicine,

00:01:31.900 went to UCSF in San Francisco for my medical training

00:01:35.820 and then Stanford for my residency training

00:01:37.680 in internal medicine.

00:01:39.040 And then I practiced at Stanford for about a decade

00:01:41.540 as a hospital-based physician.

00:01:43.460 So an internist who just takes care

00:01:44.980 of hospitalized patients,

00:01:46.660 was deputy chief of medicine,

00:01:48.280 did some stupid stuff like that to pad the resume.

00:01:50.720 And then left, went to Las Vegas

00:01:53.260 is because I got very burned out.

00:01:55.820 It was really what we call moral injury.

00:01:58.180 It was, you know, having to work in a system

00:02:00.180 that's so fundamentally opposed

00:02:02.960 to what we actually are as caring human beings

00:02:06.260 that it really weighs on you.

00:02:08.100 And over time I decided I just can't do this anymore.

00:02:09.980 So I left, went to Las Vegas,

00:02:12.500 started a clinic there called Turntable Health,

00:02:14.500 which was a primary care collaborative health clinic

00:02:18.480 that functioned on a model I call Health 3.0,

00:02:21.920 which is more integrative.

00:02:23.960 And you're actually paid to do the right thing for patients

00:02:26.300 instead of just do stuff to patients.

00:02:28.420 Ran that for about three years.

00:02:29.900 We were a little early,

00:02:30.800 so our partners actually took that model

00:02:32.540 and made it national and now are growing nationally.

00:02:35.780 But I then decided to focus on what I do reasonably well,

00:02:39.780 which is educate and communicate and try to entertain.

00:02:42.700 And that's the ZDoggMD character and channel

00:02:45.280 on YouTube and Facebook and all the other jazz.

00:02:49.180 So that's been where I am now is the ZDoggMD show.

00:02:53.160 I'm an adjunct clinical professor

00:02:54.760 at University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

00:02:57.940 And that's how I'm sitting right here.

00:03:00.040 Well, it's so great to have you on.

00:03:01.460 And let's get straight into it

00:03:02.740 because the reason we wanted to have you on,

00:03:05.080 and you talk about this a lot in your videos,

00:03:07.000 not just the medical side,

00:03:08.080 but I think also what big tech and social media

00:03:11.480 have done to our brains.

00:03:12.620 And the way you describe it,

00:03:15.640 I really like because you talk about

00:03:17.100 the pull into the two echo chambers.

00:03:19.440 And we saw it here with Brexit.

00:03:21.460 Then we saw it with Trump.

00:03:22.500 But now with COVID,

00:03:23.480 it's just got so much more pronounced.

00:03:26.420 I would readily confess to being pulled

00:03:28.900 into those echo chambers,

00:03:30.460 both of them at different points,

00:03:31.880 at different times during the pandemic.

00:03:34.840 But what I really like about you

00:03:36.980 is I think you do have a heterodox approach.

00:03:40.080 You don't buy into some of the mainstream BS

00:03:43.500 that we're being told,

00:03:44.840 but you're also not going off the deep end

00:03:46.780 in either direction,

00:03:48.120 which is, I think, a great perspective to explore.

00:03:51.180 So can you give us your heterodox bona fides

00:03:53.760 to start with?

00:03:54.660 Like, do cloth masks work?

00:03:56.600 Are vaccine mandates wrong?

00:03:58.400 Like, all that good stuff.

00:03:59.820 Are vaccinated or unvaccinated people unclean?

00:04:02.820 Yes.

00:04:03.680 Filthy.

00:04:04.160 I consider, see, look, I'm a relapsed,

00:04:08.580 or should I say reformed liberal myself.

00:04:10.800 So I consider humans good on paper,

00:04:12.980 but in reality, gross.

00:04:14.540 So just across the board, right?

00:04:16.220 So yeah, this was sort of my take on the thing.

00:04:19.120 As COVID started spinning up,

00:04:21.340 it became clear to me

00:04:22.380 that we've lost our damn minds very early on.

00:04:24.920 Like the amount of, you could feel it.

00:04:27.860 There was a kind of a hive collective mind

00:04:30.840 that had established early on

00:04:32.480 that was fear-based, panic-based,

00:04:34.360 and it was affecting everybody

00:04:35.620 in this very interesting way.

00:04:37.380 And so my earliest stuff actually

00:04:39.960 was to sit there and go,

00:04:42.000 guys, I don't really know

00:04:43.840 that a cloth diaper on your face

00:04:46.080 is gonna do shit for an airborne virus.

00:04:49.220 Now, I got a lot of things wrong

00:04:50.600 because I was thinking, you know,

00:04:51.440 it probably was surface transmission,

00:04:52.940 like say norovirus or other things like that.

00:04:55.220 And I was talking to experts

00:04:55.960 who felt that was the case.

00:04:57.700 But then the other thing I said was,

00:04:58.860 boy, it seems really crazy to lock down schools

00:05:01.440 when kids are the one class of human here

00:05:04.280 that seems relatively minimally affected by this.

00:05:07.720 And that's gonna cost the poor the most

00:05:11.180 because this is a regressive tax on the poor.

00:05:13.740 So everybody here who's screaming about this,

00:05:16.080 you really ought to think about that.

00:05:17.420 The other thing I was very concerned about

00:05:20.360 actually early on was

00:05:21.280 I didn't think a vaccine was doable

00:05:23.060 because looking at the history of vaccines,

00:05:25.020 we'd never done anything like this.

00:05:26.860 I was quite skeptical

00:05:27.720 and I actually interviewed Paul Offit

00:05:29.260 who is a big vaccine guy

00:05:30.540 and we were jointly skeptical.

00:05:32.640 We were also concerned

00:05:33.520 that the whole process

00:05:34.580 had already become politicized

00:05:36.220 and were worried that a rushed vaccine

00:05:38.640 would actually set back vaccine uptake

00:05:41.840 with kids' vaccines forever.

00:05:43.460 So we were talking about this stuff kind of early on.

00:05:46.780 And the idea that you can lock down the economy

00:05:50.660 and somehow control this

00:05:52.080 without ultimately paying a price was crazy.

00:05:54.140 So I was sort of yelling about substance abuse,

00:05:56.600 mental health,

00:05:57.400 all the other area under the curve damage

00:05:59.400 that the response to coronavirus was doing.

00:06:03.660 And I got a lot of shit

00:06:05.780 from my tribe of healthcare professionals

00:06:08.160 who were like,

00:06:09.120 aren't you seeing these people in the ICU

00:06:10.780 and all of that?

00:06:11.400 I'm like, I am.

00:06:11.980 I'm also seeing all the other damage

00:06:13.880 that we're doing

00:06:14.800 that you're so busy right now,

00:06:16.940 understandably overwhelmed in the hospital

00:06:18.620 that you don't see it.

00:06:19.680 Well, now even healthcare workers see it, right?

00:06:21.960 Because their own kids are affected

00:06:23.180 and their own mind state is affected.

00:06:25.620 And so we actually grew our audience quite a bit

00:06:28.120 talking in what I call an alt-middle way.

00:06:30.660 Like, let's just try to see where the truth is

00:06:32.500 between all the hive minds.

00:06:34.240 It's very hard to do

00:06:35.000 because we're all captured ourselves, you know?

00:06:36.800 Like I fall into my own patterns myself.

00:06:39.340 You have to be vigilant constantly.

00:06:42.640 It's such a good point.

00:06:44.100 You always have to be vigilant constantly

00:06:46.180 because we naturally have a bias.

00:06:49.160 And the thing that I've found

00:06:51.100 really, really worrying

00:06:53.820 with this entire pandemic

00:06:55.820 is the religiosity of people.

00:06:59.360 You know, that they firmly believe in campaign.

00:07:03.340 And I'll give you an example.

00:07:05.180 So because of trigonometry,

00:07:07.460 I'm on a variety of Facebook forums

00:07:09.020 where I post our clips,

00:07:10.400 both right and left.

00:07:11.580 And I'm on this forum on Facebook

00:07:13.600 called Left Wing and Proud.

00:07:15.440 Where you belong.

00:07:16.240 Yeah, exactly, right?

00:07:17.500 So you can imagine

00:07:19.800 the type of people were there.

00:07:21.040 And I saw this post by this one woman

00:07:23.040 and it actually got to me a little bit.

00:07:25.120 I felt quite upset for her.

00:07:26.720 She went,

00:07:28.080 I've worn a mask at all times.

00:07:29.940 I'm triple vaxxed.

00:07:31.380 I'm isolating.

00:07:33.660 I try and stay away from people.

00:07:35.640 I have COVID.

00:07:36.900 What did I do wrong?

00:07:38.920 And I just thought,

00:07:40.840 you haven't done anything wrong.

00:07:42.240 You've contracted an airborne virus.

00:07:43.820 You know what you just pointed,

00:07:46.980 your heart like opens for these folks

00:07:49.400 because what it is is,

00:07:51.060 and this is,

00:07:51.720 okay,

00:07:52.260 so what's interesting is the religiosity,

00:07:54.360 this idea that we've somehow filled

00:07:56.920 a hole left by the absence of God

00:07:59.640 in the world now

00:08:00.520 with this new religion

00:08:03.040 in two different bubbles, right?

00:08:05.360 What Peter Lindbergh calls the thesis bubble

00:08:07.800 and the antithesis bubble.

00:08:09.240 And each of them is a collective hive mind

00:08:11.560 that's kind of instantiated,

00:08:12.980 that's made by a bunch of individual neurons

00:08:15.600 that kind of look like us

00:08:17.260 holding these going like,

00:08:19.300 dislike, share, comment, right?

00:08:20.720 So this woman clearly was in the thesis bubble,

00:08:25.340 was doing everything,

00:08:26.520 stay home,

00:08:27.120 wear the mask,

00:08:27.900 put the Twitter name that says,

00:08:29.980 I'm Bobby,

00:08:31.020 wear the mask,

00:08:31.780 McGee,

00:08:32.400 and a picture of like them

00:08:33.660 with like a respirator

00:08:35.040 and a Darth Vader mask

00:08:36.420 and all of this.

00:08:37.460 And they're in that tribe,

00:08:38.680 they're signaling they're in that tribe.

00:08:40.240 And then what happens is

00:08:41.640 if you actually get COVID,

00:08:43.860 it's this massive amount of shame

00:08:45.660 because the feedback

00:08:47.040 from that collective brain

00:08:48.380 down to that neuron is,

00:08:49.680 you done fucked up,

00:08:50.760 eh, eh, Ron?

00:08:51.380 Like this is not okay.

00:08:53.840 And they feel it

00:08:54.600 and then it's a kind of defeat.

00:08:56.680 Now, what's interesting is

00:08:57.760 in the other bubble antithesis,

00:09:00.060 it's the same thing.

00:09:01.480 Just now the uncleanness

00:09:03.440 is not getting COVID,

00:09:04.600 the uncleanness is getting vaccinated,

00:09:06.520 having these mRNA particles,

00:09:08.340 lipid nanoparticles,

00:09:09.560 building up in your ovaries,

00:09:11.000 causing, you know,

00:09:11.840 infertility,

00:09:12.720 causing myocarditis

00:09:14.400 and all the stuff

00:09:15.080 that is rampant

00:09:16.420 in that particular hive mind.

00:09:18.320 So both have a religious

00:09:19.700 sort of fervor

00:09:20.720 and actually the antithesis crowd

00:09:22.260 adds a revelations

00:09:24.200 kind of component to it.

00:09:25.400 Like if we can just isolate

00:09:27.240 and show that these people

00:09:29.160 are part of a conspiracy

00:09:30.400 that are doing this

00:09:31.240 for money and power

00:09:32.580 and control,

00:09:33.720 we can end this pandemic

00:09:35.080 because we can just give people

00:09:36.200 the sacred sacraments

00:09:37.360 of ivermectin

00:09:38.400 and hydroxychloroquine

00:09:39.400 and so on.

00:09:40.440 Whereas the thesis tribe

00:09:41.540 is like,

00:09:41.900 no, no, no,

00:09:42.300 everyone must have

00:09:43.280 the baptism,

00:09:44.620 the baptism of vaccine.

00:09:47.060 And if you don't get baptized

00:09:48.560 with the vaccine,

00:09:49.420 you are an impurator

00:09:51.440 and must be excommunicated

00:09:53.000 from the tribe

00:09:53.680 and harshly punished

00:09:55.660 with the scarlet letter

00:09:56.640 of you unvaccinated, right?

00:09:58.940 And I love the way

00:09:59.660 you explain that.

00:10:00.440 One of the other things

00:10:01.180 you do very well,

00:10:02.040 I think,

00:10:02.360 is you try to declare

00:10:03.380 your biases.

00:10:04.680 So in this conversation,

00:10:05.960 before we get into

00:10:06.680 the medical stuff,

00:10:07.540 I kind of want to,

00:10:08.820 Francis maybe can do this

00:10:09.940 for himself,

00:10:10.440 but for me,

00:10:11.540 I definitely,

00:10:12.780 definitely,

00:10:13.560 definitely,

00:10:14.280 definitely instinctively

00:10:15.760 lean to the antithesis tribe.

00:10:17.440 There's no question

00:10:18.060 about that, right?

00:10:19.180 I am skeptical

00:10:20.420 about many of the

00:10:21.360 public health measures

00:10:22.160 that have been taken.

00:10:23.340 I think the BS

00:10:24.700 we got about masks,

00:10:26.020 don't wear a mask,

00:10:26.780 then wear a mask,

00:10:27.460 then they work,

00:10:28.000 then they don't,

00:10:28.460 like all of that,

00:10:29.560 complete nonsense.

00:10:30.200 I'm skeptical about

00:10:31.260 whether lockdowns

00:10:32.820 did have a positive

00:10:34.160 net impact

00:10:34.920 over a 10-year period.

00:10:36.420 We won't know that

00:10:37.180 for a while,

00:10:38.040 and I'm hesitant to say,

00:10:39.480 oh, definitely helped,

00:10:40.940 et cetera,

00:10:41.500 et cetera,

00:10:41.920 et cetera.

00:10:42.300 I do think,

00:10:43.500 and I'm willing

00:10:44.400 to be persuaded otherwise,

00:10:45.940 but I do suspect

00:10:46.720 we're not quite being told

00:10:47.980 the full truth

00:10:49.080 about the vaccine,

00:10:49.760 maybe because we don't know

00:10:50.700 the full truth

00:10:51.220 about the vaccine,

00:10:52.040 but all of that.

00:10:53.200 So a lot of my questions

00:10:54.700 are going to be

00:10:55.500 from someone

00:10:56.480 who is prone

00:10:57.680 to the antithesis tribe,

00:10:59.040 but is willing

00:10:59.720 to hear a rational argument

00:11:01.440 as well,

00:11:02.500 right?

00:11:03.060 So, yeah,

00:11:04.100 go for it.

00:11:05.020 No, no,

00:11:05.300 I was just going to say,

00:11:05.880 that's great.

00:11:07.180 When you put

00:11:08.580 where your bias

00:11:09.280 is coming from

00:11:09.840 and also,

00:11:11.080 what would,

00:11:12.400 are you convincible?

00:11:13.720 Are you rational?

00:11:14.760 In other words,

00:11:15.140 if I were to give you data

00:11:16.000 one way or the other,

00:11:16.860 would you change your mind?

00:11:18.220 And if people say up front,

00:11:19.580 no,

00:11:19.740 there's nothing you can say

00:11:20.920 that's ever going to change my mind,

00:11:22.420 this is what I believe,

00:11:23.360 then you know

00:11:24.080 the conversation

00:11:24.680 can be kind of limited.

00:11:25.920 You don't need

00:11:26.280 to waste a lot of time,

00:11:27.700 right?

00:11:27.920 Right.

00:11:28.560 So with that in mind,

00:11:30.180 Zubin,

00:11:30.460 so let's get into

00:11:31.300 the medical stuff,

00:11:32.100 right?

00:11:32.300 Because there's a lot

00:11:33.580 to talk about

00:11:34.340 and you've charted

00:11:35.760 a few of the things already.

00:11:36.940 So one of the things

00:11:38.320 the antithesis tribe

00:11:39.480 feels very strongly about

00:11:40.880 and it's been amplified

00:11:43.120 by people like Peter McCullough

00:11:44.840 and Robert Malone

00:11:45.740 and others

00:11:46.420 is that

00:11:48.200 early treatment

00:11:49.880 is not getting enough

00:11:52.380 attention,

00:11:54.140 that there are drugs

00:11:55.160 that could help people

00:11:56.320 that are not being prescribed

00:11:58.100 and we've seen,

00:11:59.760 for example,

00:12:00.440 with monoclonal antibodies

00:12:01.840 for which I believe

00:12:02.580 you yourself say

00:12:03.220 there's good evidence

00:12:03.880 that they work.

00:12:05.000 In the UK,

00:12:06.200 they only got approved

00:12:07.380 like a week or two ago

00:12:08.580 and only for the most

00:12:10.060 like desperately vulnerable people,

00:12:12.660 right?

00:12:13.020 Now,

00:12:13.420 that could be just

00:12:14.060 because they're more expensive

00:12:15.160 than vaccines or whatever,

00:12:16.340 but they work,

00:12:17.540 right?

00:12:17.780 And the antithesis tribe

00:12:19.120 says,

00:12:19.400 well,

00:12:19.500 look,

00:12:19.760 you can,

00:12:20.260 you know,

00:12:20.520 you don't need to get a vaccine

00:12:21.720 that maybe is a little bit suspect.

00:12:23.740 You could just get this,

00:12:25.120 right?

00:12:26.080 Ivermectin,

00:12:26.560 people have questions

00:12:27.520 about hydroxychloroquine.

00:12:29.220 What is the truth

00:12:29.860 about all that stuff?

00:12:31.640 Boy,

00:12:31.940 you know,

00:12:32.360 these are great questions

00:12:33.520 because the truth is

00:12:34.600 there's a lot we don't know

00:12:35.980 in general,

00:12:36.460 but I can kind of fill in

00:12:37.680 some of the blanks

00:12:38.300 and I'll tell you

00:12:38.820 where my biases are up front.

00:12:40.620 I'm actually with you

00:12:41.760 in the antithesis bias

00:12:42.980 against the policy measures

00:12:45.800 that have been implemented,

00:12:47.000 whether it's mandates,

00:12:48.040 lockdown,

00:12:48.600 school closures,

00:12:49.360 how we dispense information,

00:12:51.780 how we educate the public,

00:12:52.860 how we talk to them.

00:12:53.840 I'm firmly with you.

00:12:54.680 You're against censorship.

00:12:56.560 What's that?

00:12:57.380 You're against censorship

00:12:58.440 very strongly.

00:12:59.120 Against censorship entirely.

00:13:00.440 Like you should never

00:13:01.380 de-platform folks

00:13:02.540 ever,

00:13:03.180 ever.

00:13:03.760 First of all,

00:13:04.440 it won't even accomplish

00:13:05.420 what you're trying to do.

00:13:06.440 It will backfire on you

00:13:07.540 as it has been shown

00:13:08.280 time and time again,

00:13:09.360 McCullough,

00:13:09.960 Malone,

00:13:10.340 et cetera.

00:13:10.960 The mainstream,

00:13:11.900 it backfires on them

00:13:12.760 because Rogan will then

00:13:13.700 give them a platform

00:13:14.520 that's bigger than anything

00:13:15.580 the mainstream could have done.

00:13:17.380 And so,

00:13:18.180 my bias

00:13:19.380 is a more libertarian bias

00:13:21.100 on that side,

00:13:21.940 but then I have

00:13:22.600 all my medical training

00:13:24.480 and this is what creates a,

00:13:27.140 it's a bias,

00:13:28.180 but it's also a way

00:13:29.340 of looking at the world.

00:13:30.380 So for example,

00:13:30.880 I remember I saw

00:13:31.920 your great podcast

00:13:33.180 on how you guys

00:13:34.320 came down with COVID

00:13:35.080 and you were talking

00:13:35.900 through like what it was like.

00:13:36.980 I think for Francis,

00:13:37.760 he was coughing up blood

00:13:38.900 and had to go in

00:13:40.200 and be seen

00:13:40.980 and this is what the GP

00:13:41.820 told him in the ER

00:13:42.720 after waiting outside

00:13:43.660 in the cold

00:13:44.080 and all this.

00:13:44.460 I mean,

00:13:44.580 it's a really harrowing tale,

00:13:46.580 very common.

00:13:47.900 But one thing

00:13:48.660 that struck me

00:13:49.320 that was interesting,

00:13:50.160 this is where

00:13:50.680 the medical training

00:13:51.800 actually comes in handy.

00:13:53.240 I think,

00:13:53.780 Constantine,

00:13:55.320 you had said,

00:13:56.100 you know,

00:13:56.260 I don't know

00:13:56.560 why you would cough up blood

00:13:57.860 if they're worried

00:13:59.000 about blood clotting.

00:13:59.500 And I got that completely wrong.

00:14:01.440 So now you got it wrong.

00:14:03.660 It's true,

00:14:04.260 but why, right?

00:14:05.220 So not out of any

00:14:06.360 like stupidity,

00:14:07.460 lack of intelligence,

00:14:08.380 any of that.

00:14:09.180 It was because you-

00:14:09.820 Could have been that.

00:14:10.380 And it's also that, right?

00:14:11.800 I mean,

00:14:12.000 I'll cough to that too.

00:14:14.100 But it's because

00:14:14.940 you didn't go through

00:14:15.740 four years of medical school

00:14:16.940 and three years of residency

00:14:18.060 and 10 years of stuff.

00:14:19.500 So when I saw that,

00:14:20.480 I'm like,

00:14:20.780 oh yeah,

00:14:21.140 because the chances

00:14:22.880 of actually killing lung tissue

00:14:24.500 around a blood clot,

00:14:25.940 which then causes

00:14:26.700 a pulmonary infarction,

00:14:28.020 which then cause hemoptysis,

00:14:29.560 which is the medical term

00:14:30.340 for blood coming up,

00:14:31.620 is a five to 7% risk

00:14:33.600 of severe blood clot.

00:14:35.040 And so,

00:14:35.560 yes,

00:14:35.760 that's why you think of it.

00:14:36.660 But how would you

00:14:37.620 have the tools

00:14:38.640 to know that de novo?

00:14:39.780 You couldn't

00:14:40.460 unless you asked an expert

00:14:41.760 or did a lot of research.

00:14:43.660 So this is where

00:14:44.940 my bias comes in

00:14:45.800 is I actually know

00:14:46.620 how to look at data

00:14:47.520 and we've been burned

00:14:48.960 in medicine many,

00:14:49.960 many times

00:14:50.420 by data that seems

00:14:51.920 kind of promising

00:14:52.600 and it turns out

00:14:53.280 to be horse shit

00:14:53.980 when you really study it

00:14:55.380 with a good

00:14:55.820 randomized control trial.

00:14:56.940 So that is the basis

00:14:58.700 of this.

00:14:59.820 The question now

00:15:00.780 becomes early therapies,

00:15:02.520 right?

00:15:02.700 Early therapeutics.

00:15:04.100 Boy,

00:15:04.380 that has a strong

00:15:05.200 emotional resonance

00:15:06.400 because people are like,

00:15:07.460 well,

00:15:07.680 if you could just treat

00:15:08.680 this thing early

00:15:09.420 like we do

00:15:09.980 with strep throat

00:15:10.940 or bacterial infections

00:15:12.660 or even HIV,

00:15:14.660 if you're early

00:15:15.340 in an HIV course,

00:15:16.480 you treat with antivirals,

00:15:18.400 it's a cocktail,

00:15:19.260 it's complicated,

00:15:20.180 you can actually

00:15:20.880 live a long,

00:15:21.780 long time,

00:15:22.100 it becomes a chronic disease

00:15:23.200 like the Magic Johnson

00:15:24.200 effect,

00:15:24.880 but with viruses

00:15:28.020 in general,

00:15:29.420 the pre-test likelihood

00:15:31.640 that that's gonna work,

00:15:32.920 that we have good therapeutics

00:15:34.100 is very low,

00:15:35.000 even repurposed drugs

00:15:36.280 just because we just

00:15:37.180 don't have great therapeutics

00:15:38.400 for viruses.

00:15:39.540 So already there's

00:15:40.460 kind of a concern

00:15:41.980 that is it gonna,

00:15:42.940 are we gonna have

00:15:43.400 something that works?

00:15:44.060 So in the early days,

00:15:45.320 I think this is where

00:15:46.760 the antithesis crowd,

00:15:48.620 the leaders in that

00:15:49.960 network of antithesis,

00:15:51.160 so the McCullochs

00:15:52.440 and the Malones,

00:15:53.520 they really

00:15:54.300 have a little bit of,

00:15:57.120 there's a bit

00:15:57.840 of a misleading angle

00:15:59.200 here that nobody's

00:16:00.420 talking about therapeutics.

00:16:01.880 I can tell you

00:16:02.720 we were there

00:16:03.440 in the early pandemic

00:16:05.000 and that's all

00:16:06.040 we were talking about

00:16:06.820 because nobody

00:16:07.820 really trusted

00:16:08.540 that we were gonna

00:16:09.060 get to a vaccine

00:16:09.860 and even when it looked

00:16:10.740 like a vaccine might come,

00:16:12.080 nobody trusted

00:16:12.620 that it would actually

00:16:13.260 have any good efficacy.

00:16:14.720 So there were forums

00:16:15.640 and forums and forums

00:16:16.520 of international doctors.

00:16:17.920 I had people on my show

00:16:18.740 talking about

00:16:19.340 what are the things

00:16:20.300 that might work

00:16:20.920 and we talked

00:16:21.480 about hydroxychloroquine,

00:16:22.540 we talked about

00:16:23.060 pros and cons.

00:16:24.420 We talked,

00:16:25.040 ivermectin,

00:16:25.640 when it became

00:16:26.620 a bigger thing,

00:16:27.280 we started talking

00:16:27.880 about that

00:16:28.500 and everybody was open

00:16:29.460 to these things working.

00:16:30.840 The thing is,

00:16:31.840 we've been burned

00:16:32.380 a million times

00:16:33.140 and a lot of

00:16:33.820 observational trials,

00:16:35.020 a lot of correlation

00:16:35.960 doesn't pan out

00:16:37.400 when you actually measure

00:16:38.540 it in a gold standard

00:16:39.380 randomized control trial

00:16:40.520 and that's what happened

00:16:41.400 with hydroxychloroquine

00:16:42.620 and ivermectin,

00:16:44.300 the data that has come out

00:16:45.560 that's really good

00:16:46.300 quality data

00:16:46.980 is still like,

00:16:47.700 well,

00:16:47.860 I'm not seeing it yet.

00:16:49.120 Now that could change,

00:16:50.000 right?

00:16:50.140 You could see

00:16:50.560 something change

00:16:51.260 but the idea

00:16:52.560 that these therapies

00:16:53.620 were withheld,

00:16:54.320 now monoclonals

00:16:55.140 are an interesting one.

00:16:56.600 They absolutely help,

00:16:58.100 absolutely

00:16:58.600 and in the U.S.,

00:16:59.940 they've been recommended

00:17:01.140 by NIH

00:17:01.840 from very early on

00:17:03.480 so it's really

00:17:04.600 a question of

00:17:05.220 what's the uptake?

00:17:06.940 They're difficult

00:17:07.620 to administer

00:17:08.260 because you have

00:17:08.820 to often do infusions

00:17:09.960 or subcutaneous injections.

00:17:11.780 They can be expensive

00:17:12.800 but in the U.S.,

00:17:13.700 we don't care about that.

00:17:14.880 We'll throw anything

00:17:15.580 at people, right?

00:17:16.260 Because insurance

00:17:17.220 will reimburse it

00:17:18.380 which means ultimately

00:17:19.020 we're all paying for it

00:17:20.120 whereas in the U.K.,

00:17:21.440 NHS does look at,

00:17:23.060 oh,

00:17:23.220 what's the net

00:17:23.940 public health benefit

00:17:24.760 for the cost

00:17:25.560 and so on, right?

00:17:26.380 So in the U.S.,

00:17:27.940 monoclonals have been available.

00:17:29.260 Now,

00:17:29.380 are they easy to get?

00:17:30.300 No.

00:17:30.680 Should they be easier to get?

00:17:31.920 Absolutely.

00:17:32.560 So that's a policy thing

00:17:33.800 but it's not a science thing.

00:17:35.180 The science,

00:17:35.720 we've been talking about it

00:17:36.820 and I think

00:17:37.300 even at the highest level.

00:17:39.120 So it's not that

00:17:39.820 monoclonals have been

00:17:40.720 suppressed in favor of vaccine.

00:17:43.400 So that's the kind

00:17:44.500 of therapeutic.

00:17:45.180 Now,

00:17:45.580 here's another thing.

00:17:46.560 Something like fluvoxamine

00:17:47.760 which is an antidepressant,

00:17:49.540 right?

00:17:50.300 The trials,

00:17:51.880 the good randomized control trial

00:17:53.740 showed a good reduction

00:17:55.260 in hospitalization rate

00:17:56.680 and possibly mortality

00:17:58.180 using this very safe antidepressant

00:18:01.260 that has probably

00:18:01.880 some anti-inflammatory effects.

00:18:03.380 That's why it seems to work

00:18:04.580 and I've been in cahoots

00:18:05.920 talking to the lead investigators

00:18:07.460 and all that

00:18:07.980 and people just don't seem

00:18:10.100 to talk about it

00:18:11.160 even though it's there.

00:18:12.140 So that is a valid concern

00:18:14.320 of people like Malone

00:18:15.700 and McCullough.

00:18:16.320 Like,

00:18:16.680 why aren't we jumping

00:18:17.580 up and down

00:18:18.120 talking about this?

00:18:18.780 I've had people on my show

00:18:19.580 like Dr. Marty McCary

00:18:20.580 who has.

00:18:21.300 There are lots of heterodox

00:18:22.740 doctors,

00:18:24.180 heterodox,

00:18:25.300 that was stupid,

00:18:26.420 who are talking

00:18:27.740 about this stuff

00:18:28.560 but when you listen

00:18:30.780 to pure antithesis,

00:18:32.200 they'll say nobody's

00:18:33.000 talking about this

00:18:33.640 except for these

00:18:34.320 really prominent physicians

00:18:35.940 like Marty McCary,

00:18:37.340 Vinay Prasad,

00:18:38.960 Jay Bhattacharya.

00:18:39.980 These are people

00:18:40.580 that are very pro-vaccine,

00:18:42.420 say for example,

00:18:43.040 but also pro-therapeutics,

00:18:44.460 pro-science,

00:18:45.260 pro all of this other stuff

00:18:46.200 and they're quite antithesis

00:18:47.520 in many ways

00:18:48.120 in terms of policy.

00:18:49.860 So, yeah.

00:18:51.180 So, Zubin,

00:18:52.400 isn't the problem,

00:18:53.420 again,

00:18:53.880 going back to censorship,

00:18:55.760 where the moment

00:18:56.940 you start taking down

00:18:58.620 the McCulloughs

00:18:59.760 and the Malones,

00:19:01.640 you instantly give them

00:19:03.400 a gravitas

00:19:04.460 because people are like,

00:19:05.720 oh, you know,

00:19:06.160 they're talking truth to power

00:19:07.460 and Pfizer can't handle it

00:19:09.240 because they know the truth

00:19:10.340 about the vaccine

00:19:11.260 and then everybody,

00:19:12.800 like you said,

00:19:13.460 flocks,

00:19:13.940 but then what that means

00:19:15.480 is that we lose faith

00:19:17.280 in the mainstream.

00:19:19.080 We lose faith

00:19:19.980 in the vaccines.

00:19:22.160 The mainstream

00:19:23.060 has deserved

00:19:24.400 the loss of faith

00:19:25.600 that it's gotten.

00:19:26.820 Trying to silence people,

00:19:28.500 that's insane.

00:19:29.660 Trying to stigmatize

00:19:30.840 conversations,

00:19:32.220 like, you know,

00:19:32.660 this thing where

00:19:33.260 Fauci and NIH director

00:19:35.700 Francis Collins

00:19:36.540 in the United States

00:19:37.280 were trying to discredit

00:19:40.060 Dr. Jay Bhattacharya,

00:19:41.620 who's been on my show twice.

00:19:42.920 He's the most reasonable,

00:19:44.600 rational,

00:19:45.140 caring, passionate guy.

00:19:46.620 He has a difference

00:19:47.620 in opinion

00:19:48.640 on how the policy

00:19:49.660 should work in this.

00:19:51.160 And he was one

00:19:51.580 of the earliest people

00:19:52.380 to say,

00:19:52.760 hey,

00:19:52.900 the infection fatality rate,

00:19:54.300 in other words,

00:19:55.100 if everybody who's infected,

00:19:56.280 whether you measure them or not,

00:19:57.880 of this disease

00:19:59.240 is actually more like

00:20:00.080 0.2 to 0.3%.

00:20:01.580 That's not super high.

00:20:03.580 So why are we shutting down

00:20:05.800 all of our way of life

00:20:07.380 and disrupting

00:20:08.080 our social fabric

00:20:08.980 and ruining the economy

00:20:10.240 and causing wealth disparity

00:20:11.940 that's gonna ruin lives,

00:20:13.520 including health?

00:20:14.400 Why are we doing that for this?

00:20:15.800 Well,

00:20:16.360 mainstream totally screwed that up

00:20:18.480 and they deserve

00:20:19.480 all the hate for that,

00:20:21.160 right?

00:20:21.780 But what's ended up happening is,

00:20:23.900 and I think this started early on

00:20:25.300 because you had Trump as president

00:20:26.800 who was endorsing

00:20:27.600 a therapeutic,

00:20:28.840 hydroxychloroquine.

00:20:30.820 And I think that started then

00:20:32.240 to spiral the tribalization

00:20:33.920 because if you do look

00:20:34.820 at antithesis,

00:20:35.580 it does lean right libertarian more.

00:20:38.380 And I think that started

00:20:39.860 a kind of thing

00:20:40.640 and then the left

00:20:41.320 really rolled with that.

00:20:42.540 Then they wouldn't even listen

00:20:43.700 about therapeutics, right?

00:20:44.740 Because it was like,

00:20:45.740 no, no, no.

00:20:46.420 We already went through

00:20:47.220 this hydroxychloroquine thing.

00:20:48.560 It's like,

00:20:48.900 okay,

00:20:49.400 stop,

00:20:50.180 stop.

00:20:50.980 You're supposed to actually

00:20:52.220 pay attention to science here.

00:20:54.040 There's no the science.

00:20:55.080 That's dogma.

00:20:56.200 This is a process.

00:20:57.780 So I'm with you.

00:20:59.240 And by stopping,

00:21:00.220 you know,

00:21:00.460 and Rogan will even say,

00:21:01.260 hey, you got canceled on Twitter.

00:21:02.460 Come on my show

00:21:03.120 and I'll give you a place,

00:21:05.060 a very friendly place, right?

00:21:06.520 Because Rogan does skew

00:21:08.580 a little antithesis,

00:21:09.600 although he's a synthesis guy.

00:21:11.140 He really is.

00:21:11.840 If you listen to Rogan talking,

00:21:13.280 you're like,

00:21:13.540 this guy's trying to find truth.

00:21:15.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:16.080 And this is why I've said,

00:21:17.300 I'm not sure that

00:21:18.100 Peter McCullough,

00:21:19.240 Robert Malone

00:21:19.780 are necessarily right

00:21:20.660 about what they say,

00:21:21.880 but I massively respect Joe

00:21:24.040 for having them on

00:21:24.760 because someone has to push back

00:21:26.060 against this shit, Zubin.

00:21:27.120 We can't let the big tech

00:21:28.980 just shut everything down

00:21:30.300 and censor

00:21:30.760 because they're only going

00:21:31.620 to make things worse.

00:21:32.400 So I respect Joe more

00:21:33.920 for having these people on,

00:21:35.560 even if they're wrong

00:21:36.360 about every single thing

00:21:37.320 that they say personally.

00:21:38.400 That's my own view.

00:21:40.340 But let's come back

00:21:41.500 to the medicine.

00:21:42.840 So we've covered

00:21:44.360 the early therapeutics.

00:21:46.260 The other concern

00:21:47.540 that people have

00:21:48.440 is the side effects

00:21:49.640 of the vaccine.

00:21:50.500 And that would be

00:21:51.500 myocarditis.

00:21:52.480 That would be

00:21:53.600 menstrual changes

00:21:54.680 in women.

00:21:55.160 we see particularly

00:21:56.780 with healthy young athletes.

00:21:58.560 And this is,

00:21:59.280 I don't know

00:21:59.920 whether it's a real trend

00:22:01.380 or it's an observed trend

00:22:02.560 or whatever,

00:22:03.040 but we see particularly

00:22:03.760 with footballers,

00:22:05.060 the number of footballers

00:22:06.400 that used to have a seizure

00:22:08.560 on the pitch

00:22:09.280 or during training

00:22:10.240 that we would know of,

00:22:12.300 that we would know of,

00:22:13.320 right?

00:22:13.540 It would be happening

00:22:14.540 in the third league

00:22:16.420 in Slovenia,

00:22:17.440 but we wouldn't know

00:22:18.780 about it, right?

00:22:19.900 Used to be like

00:22:20.820 one or two a year.

00:22:21.800 And this year

00:22:22.680 there's been a dozen, right?

00:22:25.220 Now that could be

00:22:25.960 because it's being

00:22:26.440 covered differently,

00:22:27.260 but people talk about

00:22:28.780 that as being an issue.

00:22:30.160 So the antithesis tribe

00:22:32.520 suspects that the vaccines

00:22:34.000 are not as safe

00:22:34.680 as we're being told.

00:22:35.760 What is the truth

00:22:36.640 in your opinion about that?

00:22:38.320 Yeah, this is,

00:22:39.280 and this is one where

00:22:40.380 I had to look at my own bias

00:22:42.840 very carefully

00:22:43.720 because going into COVID,

00:22:45.460 I was as pro-vaccine,

00:22:47.140 like I would have,

00:22:47.640 I looked like the guy

00:22:48.320 from Hellraiser,

00:22:49.100 just a bunch of needles

00:22:49.960 in my face,

00:22:50.680 like walking around,

00:22:51.620 like that's how

00:22:52.420 pro-vaccine I was

00:22:53.400 because the vaccines

00:22:55.100 that we had

00:22:55.960 are really, really,

00:22:57.480 really good

00:22:58.040 for childhood diseases,

00:22:59.320 for preventing cancer

00:23:00.760 through HPV vaccine,

00:23:02.220 for preventing shingles

00:23:03.520 and shingrix

00:23:04.140 and pneumonia

00:23:04.720 with pneumovax

00:23:05.640 and flu,

00:23:06.440 meh,

00:23:07.360 but at least it's something.

00:23:08.800 So I was very pro

00:23:10.120 those vaccines.

00:23:11.100 They're quite safe,

00:23:11.740 but not without

00:23:12.380 rare complications

00:23:13.320 that can happen, right?

00:23:14.540 So that being said,

00:23:16.980 going into coronavirus,

00:23:18.320 there's that skepticism

00:23:19.340 and part of the skepticism

00:23:21.280 was we've never done

00:23:22.360 this before.

00:23:23.220 This is new technology

00:23:24.260 with mRNA,

00:23:25.020 even though the technology

00:23:25.920 is a decade plus old

00:23:27.120 and to listen to Robert Malone,

00:23:28.620 it's actually from 1988,

00:23:30.020 right,

00:23:30.220 when he published

00:23:30.980 his paper on wrapping mRNA

00:23:32.860 in a lipid glob

00:23:34.860 that allows it

00:23:35.640 to get taken up

00:23:36.280 by mouse cells

00:23:36.980 and so the question now.

00:23:39.960 Sorry to interrupt.

00:23:40.940 This mRNA vaccine,

00:23:43.100 am I right to say

00:23:44.140 it's obviously going to be

00:23:45.360 the first one

00:23:45.920 rolled out at this scale,

00:23:47.060 right?

00:23:47.260 We've never seen anything

00:23:48.180 remarkably on this sort of level.

00:23:50.260 So it is new

00:23:51.080 in that way, right?

00:23:52.040 This is right.

00:23:52.820 And I'll be honest with you.

00:23:53.860 When I sat down,

00:23:54.780 I was there like in January

00:23:56.700 as a healthcare guy

00:23:58.020 getting my shot.

00:24:00.060 I damn near had a panic attack

00:24:02.200 when they gave it to me

00:24:03.020 because I,

00:24:03.800 it was,

00:24:04.420 again,

00:24:05.100 the human instinct is,

00:24:06.540 and look,

00:24:07.120 I'm very trained in this stuff

00:24:08.820 and I'd looked at the data.

00:24:10.080 I talked to experts

00:24:11.240 who've been working

00:24:12.160 on the trials.

00:24:13.020 I was comfortable

00:24:13.640 with the safety of it

00:24:14.560 but there was still

00:24:15.680 an unconscious response

00:24:17.000 where I was like,

00:24:17.680 I'm going to die now

00:24:18.760 or something terrible

00:24:19.860 is going to happen.

00:24:20.500 So it is normal human behavior

00:24:22.580 to question putting

00:24:23.520 new shit in your body

00:24:25.860 and we should actually

00:24:27.620 encourage that

00:24:28.760 and actually talk about that

00:24:30.760 instead of saying,

00:24:31.700 oh,

00:24:31.760 you're an anti-vaxxer

00:24:32.540 by bringing this stuff,

00:24:33.540 right?

00:24:33.860 So the mRNA stuff

00:24:35.080 is a new,

00:24:36.540 way to do something

00:24:37.680 that's quite old

00:24:38.360 which is use your body's

00:24:39.960 immune system

00:24:40.800 and teach it

00:24:42.060 how to respond

00:24:42.760 to a virus

00:24:44.480 and this is another reason

00:24:45.620 I have a bias

00:24:46.280 towards vaccines

00:24:47.900 as opposed to therapeutics.

00:24:49.760 You need all of them.

00:24:50.820 You need all of them

00:24:51.580 but this is why

00:24:52.160 I think a lot of physicians

00:24:53.100 have a bias towards vaccines

00:24:54.520 because if you can prevent something,

00:24:56.220 it's way better

00:24:56.680 than having to get it

00:24:57.540 because you still have

00:24:58.460 the complications

00:24:59.020 of getting it,

00:24:59.660 potentially things like

00:25:00.480 long COVID,

00:25:01.320 et cetera

00:25:01.560 but the other reason

00:25:02.800 is therapeutics

00:25:04.420 are trying to hack the body.

00:25:06.100 They're trying to bypass

00:25:06.960 something the body does

00:25:08.180 in some way

00:25:09.220 to try to do it

00:25:10.340 better or differently

00:25:11.500 and that's why

00:25:11.940 they have all these

00:25:12.480 kind of side effects

00:25:13.460 because the body

00:25:14.480 is actually pretty complicated.

00:25:16.340 With vaccines,

00:25:17.320 what you're doing

00:25:18.300 is taking a very small dose

00:25:19.920 of something,

00:25:20.600 much lower dose

00:25:21.400 than you would give

00:25:21.940 in therapeutics

00:25:22.720 and you're teaching,

00:25:24.560 you're actually taking

00:25:25.240 what the body already does

00:25:26.400 which is its complex immune system

00:25:28.020 and you're training it

00:25:28.880 to do something

00:25:29.420 it would normally do

00:25:30.280 if it saw the virus

00:25:31.080 in real life

00:25:31.760 and so in the history

00:25:34.160 of vaccines,

00:25:34.900 there's never been

00:25:35.900 a long-term complication

00:25:37.280 that's manifest

00:25:38.060 that hasn't first shown up

00:25:40.160 in the first two months

00:25:41.860 of administration

00:25:42.600 so that was something

00:25:44.400 that then many scientists

00:25:45.860 pointed to

00:25:46.400 and said,

00:25:46.740 okay,

00:25:46.900 well,

00:25:47.100 let's look

00:25:47.540 in these first two months

00:25:48.420 very, very carefully.

00:25:49.600 We've seen the trial data,

00:25:50.680 tens of thousands of people

00:25:51.560 in randomized control trials

00:25:52.920 that were actually

00:25:53.560 very well done

00:25:54.460 but the bigger trial

00:25:57.020 was the real world,

00:25:58.100 right?

00:25:58.280 So what's actually happening?

00:25:59.740 What are we being told

00:26:00.440 and what are we not being told

00:26:01.460 and are our surveillance methods

00:26:05.300 actually,

00:26:06.120 are they working,

00:26:07.240 right?

00:26:07.620 Because people talk

00:26:08.420 about VAERS

00:26:09.140 which is the US big database,

00:26:11.060 that's a hypothesis generator.

00:26:12.760 It's designed to say,

00:26:14.400 is there something going on

00:26:15.020 that we need to investigate further

00:26:16.100 but there are other databases

00:26:17.820 that are much more rigorous

00:26:18.900 like the VSD,

00:26:21.520 I think it is,

00:26:22.220 the vaccine safety database

00:26:23.540 from CDC

00:26:24.100 and PRISM

00:26:25.240 from the FDA

00:26:27.380 that actually do

00:26:28.340 a much more rigorous job

00:26:29.660 of looking at people

00:26:30.420 who are vaccinated,

00:26:31.060 people who aren't vaccinated,

00:26:32.020 comparing on an ongoing basis.

00:26:34.360 Now,

00:26:35.220 what they found actually

00:26:36.660 early on

00:26:37.700 starting with Israeli data

00:26:39.140 was these reports

00:26:39.960 of myocarditis.

00:26:41.080 They had a few cases

00:26:42.300 in the trials

00:26:43.060 but it didn't look like

00:26:43.960 they were above

00:26:44.640 what you would expect

00:26:45.880 in the background rate

00:26:46.820 or in placebo.

00:26:47.560 Well,

00:26:48.460 add in,

00:26:49.540 in a very rare,

00:26:50.520 like when you have rare stuff,

00:26:52.280 you need hundreds of thousands

00:26:53.680 of millions of people

00:26:54.620 to see it actually show up

00:26:55.740 at a scale

00:26:56.200 that you can actually say,

00:26:57.300 okay,

00:26:57.540 this is the percentage

00:26:58.260 that it's happening.

00:26:59.520 Myocarditis,

00:27:00.040 we started to catch that

00:27:01.040 and it actually was caught

00:27:02.040 relatively early

00:27:03.280 and what was interesting

00:27:04.240 is since it was,

00:27:05.820 it's such an age dependent thing,

00:27:07.640 like it's the 12 to 17 year olds

00:27:09.360 that seem to be

00:27:09.840 at the peak risk,

00:27:10.980 you didn't really see it

00:27:12.380 manifest a lot

00:27:13.300 until we started

00:27:14.020 going down in age,

00:27:15.620 right?

00:27:15.840 So this is important.

00:27:17.680 It was caught,

00:27:18.720 it's understood

00:27:19.600 but not perfectly.

00:27:21.160 In other words,

00:27:21.580 there's some uncertainty

00:27:22.360 like how many people

00:27:23.840 who get myocarditis

00:27:24.840 would ever have

00:27:25.360 long-term damage

00:27:26.300 because if you look

00:27:27.940 at other causes

00:27:28.820 of myocarditis,

00:27:29.820 they can cause

00:27:30.520 long-term damage

00:27:31.700 but the reason

00:27:32.580 is often because

00:27:33.280 they involve

00:27:34.020 massive viral infection,

00:27:35.720 they involve

00:27:36.100 other reasons

00:27:37.760 to get myocarditis

00:27:38.500 which is heart inflammation

00:27:39.580 and pericarditis,

00:27:40.580 inflammation of the sac

00:27:41.600 around the heart

00:27:42.040 but with the vaccine,

00:27:43.920 we feel

00:27:44.940 it's an immune reaction

00:27:46.420 that's relatively transient

00:27:48.080 so we think

00:27:48.900 it should be

00:27:49.360 fully reversible

00:27:50.020 but again,

00:27:50.480 we don't know fully.

00:27:51.740 So then,

00:27:52.660 parents should be

00:27:53.260 given this information

00:27:54.000 to say,

00:27:54.420 okay,

00:27:55.220 now you can make

00:27:55.860 an educated choice.

00:27:57.040 Here's your child's

00:27:57.880 risk of disease

00:27:58.640 in this environment

00:27:59.940 with this circulating virus

00:28:01.820 and their risk

00:28:02.340 of being hospitalized

00:28:02.920 and here's their risk

00:28:03.940 of myocarditis.

00:28:05.440 Why would we mandate

00:28:06.900 a vaccine for children

00:28:08.000 when you could just

00:28:09.580 tell parents,

00:28:10.340 here are the risks

00:28:10.720 and benefits,

00:28:11.940 educate them clearly

00:28:12.760 and let them make

00:28:13.340 a decision

00:28:13.680 for their child

00:28:14.420 because children

00:28:15.180 are not the predominant

00:28:16.200 vector of this disease

00:28:17.360 and they're not the ones

00:28:18.920 that are filling up

00:28:20.120 the ICUs,

00:28:21.060 at least not yet,

00:28:22.100 right?

00:28:22.360 In some apocryphal news stories

00:28:24.320 to the contrary.

00:28:25.800 So this myocarditis

00:28:27.660 is the biggest thing

00:28:28.800 that we saw with mRNA

00:28:29.780 and they're really

00:28:30.740 the menstrual thing

00:28:31.700 from the beginning

00:28:33.280 I was saying,

00:28:34.100 hey,

00:28:34.160 we gotta study this

00:28:35.020 because this makes sense

00:28:37.240 because the women

00:28:38.960 are complicated.

00:28:40.480 Like they have this

00:28:41.980 really complex,

00:28:43.620 right?

00:28:44.440 Every time,

00:28:45.480 you know,

00:28:45.700 people will ask me

00:28:46.540 like gynecological questions

00:28:47.800 and I'm like,

00:28:48.280 I don't know shit

00:28:48.940 about the women parts

00:28:49.760 and I studied it

00:28:50.580 all in medical school

00:28:51.360 and I still have no idea

00:28:52.320 how they all fit together

00:28:53.320 and how they work

00:28:54.000 and my wife will confirm that.

00:28:55.600 So the point being

00:28:57.340 like the immune system

00:28:58.820 affects the hypothalamic,

00:29:00.900 pituitary,

00:29:01.540 all the axis that controls

00:29:03.460 and modulates

00:29:04.700 menstrual cycles in women.

00:29:07.760 That's enough

00:29:08.680 to actually cause disruption

00:29:10.280 in a cycle or two

00:29:11.400 with a profound immune response.

00:29:14.020 For example,

00:29:14.500 just an illness,

00:29:15.440 COVID itself

00:29:16.080 or any other viral illness

00:29:17.360 can cause those

00:29:18.120 menstrual irregularities.

00:29:19.360 You don't have to invoke

00:29:20.900 ovarian damage

00:29:22.100 like say Robert Malone

00:29:23.460 invoked in the last piece

00:29:25.220 that he did

00:29:25.640 which actually was based

00:29:26.460 on incorrect,

00:29:27.880 that's not true,

00:29:29.560 right?

00:29:29.720 That was based on mouse data

00:29:31.640 where they injected

00:29:32.320 super mouse,

00:29:34.060 it's not superhuman,

00:29:34.980 super mouse amounts,

00:29:36.500 super murine,

00:29:37.260 that's the medical term,

00:29:38.420 amounts of this,

00:29:39.380 lipid nanoparticle

00:29:41.320 and of course

00:29:41.740 it accumulates everywhere

00:29:42.580 including in ovaries

00:29:43.280 but there was no tissue damage

00:29:44.420 and in humans

00:29:45.260 we haven't seen that

00:29:46.040 but what we do see

00:29:46.860 is these menstrual irregularities.

00:29:48.540 NIH is funding

00:29:49.680 to the tune of like

00:29:50.640 1.6 million dollars

00:29:51.720 or something

00:29:52.100 researching that

00:29:53.280 and Oregon just came out

00:29:54.420 with one of the results

00:29:55.580 and they were saying,

00:29:56.240 yeah,

00:29:56.540 it does appear

00:29:57.240 for a period or two

00:29:58.300 there can be

00:29:59.240 minor reversible disruption

00:30:00.900 in menstrual cycles.

00:30:02.100 Now that doesn't mean

00:30:03.260 that women aren't

00:30:03.960 really affected by that

00:30:05.200 and it doesn't cause

00:30:05.840 a lot of fear

00:30:08.420 and that can actually

00:30:10.000 feed on itself too,

00:30:11.100 right?

00:30:11.320 So you do need

00:30:12.600 to talk about this

00:30:14.020 and study it

00:30:14.860 and disclose it

00:30:15.780 because otherwise

00:30:16.720 who's gonna trust you

00:30:18.100 if suddenly

00:30:18.620 all these women

00:30:19.320 are saying,

00:30:19.900 but this is what

00:30:20.420 I'm seeing,

00:30:21.400 right?

00:30:23.140 So that's the menstrual piece.

00:30:24.920 Now any questions

00:30:27.100 or I can talk

00:30:27.580 about the footnotes?

00:30:27.980 Well there's one thing

00:30:29.000 that I want to ask

00:30:29.640 and I feel this is

00:30:30.500 very important

00:30:31.120 as a layman.

00:30:32.060 Could you please explain

00:30:33.120 what myocarditis is

00:30:34.580 because it's a term

00:30:35.820 that's used again

00:30:36.540 and again

00:30:36.960 and it's got to the point

00:30:38.260 where if I even

00:30:39.760 questioned it

00:30:40.820 or I even asked

00:30:41.520 what it is,

00:30:42.180 I'd feel kind of ignorant.

00:30:44.140 Like now.

00:30:45.220 Dude,

00:30:45.540 there are a lot of doctors

00:30:46.320 who don't know

00:30:46.980 shit about myocarditis

00:30:48.340 because we rarely

00:30:49.460 ever see it.

00:30:51.580 Unless you're a cardiologist

00:30:52.800 or a specialist

00:30:53.520 or a hospitalist like me,

00:30:54.880 you'll see patients

00:30:55.620 admitted with it.

00:30:56.140 So this is what this is.

00:30:57.900 Myocardium is a fancy way

00:30:58.960 of saying heart muscle.

00:31:01.060 Pericardium simply means

00:31:02.400 the sac around the heart.

00:31:04.400 What this is really

00:31:05.740 is there's myocarditis

00:31:07.340 which simply

00:31:07.900 itis means inflammation.

00:31:09.480 So it's inflammation

00:31:10.800 of the heart muscle

00:31:12.140 and myopericarditis

00:31:15.220 is inflammation

00:31:16.220 of the heart muscle

00:31:16.980 and the sac around the heart

00:31:18.620 and pericarditis

00:31:19.780 is just inflammation

00:31:20.560 of the sac around the heart.

00:31:22.080 And what this often causes

00:31:24.080 is symptoms like chest pain

00:31:25.980 because that can be

00:31:26.980 the inflammation

00:31:28.160 can cause pain.

00:31:29.280 It can cause

00:31:30.160 weakening of the heart muscle

00:31:31.840 so that you don't squeeze

00:31:33.040 as well.

00:31:33.560 That's a kind of heart failure

00:31:35.220 that is usually reversible

00:31:36.320 but it can be permanent

00:31:37.800 in causes of myocarditis

00:31:39.320 that are not due

00:31:40.060 to say something

00:31:40.740 like a vaccine we think.

00:31:42.420 And it can

00:31:44.220 cause enough symptoms

00:31:45.820 like swelling

00:31:46.500 in the lower

00:31:47.100 body and so on

00:31:48.680 because the heart's

00:31:49.220 not pumping blood forward

00:31:50.280 so it backs up

00:31:51.360 into the lungs.

00:31:52.640 And listen guys,

00:31:53.580 if this sounds scary to you

00:31:54.820 that's because myocarditis

00:31:56.340 is kind of scary.

00:31:58.900 Like it's okay to go,

00:32:00.460 dude, that's a concern.

00:32:02.380 Like when the mainstream

00:32:03.700 is like, yeah,

00:32:04.280 but it's mild and reversible

00:32:05.180 and the kids only spend

00:32:06.780 a few days in the hospital

00:32:07.820 and they're better.

00:32:08.500 I'm like,

00:32:08.700 I don't want my kid

00:32:10.640 in the hospital at all.

00:32:11.800 Like can we talk?

00:32:12.480 So let's really talk about that.

00:32:14.280 Go, okay,

00:32:14.700 so what if they get COVID?

00:32:15.900 What's that like for them?

00:32:17.320 So those are reasonable

00:32:18.540 conversations to have.

00:32:19.840 Well, Zubin,

00:32:21.000 sorry,

00:32:21.440 I thought you were finished.

00:32:22.640 Nothing, I got nothing.

00:32:23.380 All right, cool.

00:32:24.700 So very much on that front,

00:32:26.700 what that says to me

00:32:27.820 is like there are some people

00:32:29.340 like you who are being

00:32:30.160 honest about it

00:32:31.000 and acknowledging

00:32:31.840 that it's likely transient,

00:32:34.040 that it's a very minor thing,

00:32:35.580 that COVID is more likely

00:32:36.720 in most cohorts

00:32:37.880 to give you similar levels

00:32:39.720 of, like all of that

00:32:40.900 is, I get it, right?

00:32:43.000 The problem I have is

00:32:44.240 the moment you start

00:32:45.860 using state compulsion

00:32:47.680 or social pressure

00:32:50.140 or mandates

00:32:51.580 or any sort of form

00:32:53.180 of soft or hard coercion

00:32:55.320 to tell somebody

00:32:56.600 to take an injection

00:32:57.800 that can,

00:32:59.220 in a small minority of cases,

00:33:00.740 give them what you described

00:33:02.100 as a scary thing

00:33:03.140 or for women,

00:33:04.340 it's menstrual changes.

00:33:05.360 Now look,

00:33:06.120 women,

00:33:07.020 like, you know,

00:33:07.480 you talked about me

00:33:08.240 not having a clue

00:33:09.000 about this stuff.

00:33:09.760 Absolutely correct.

00:33:10.660 A lot of people

00:33:11.600 are not medically trained

00:33:12.620 and they're just going,

00:33:13.660 my body,

00:33:14.600 a very, very key function

00:33:16.320 of my body

00:33:17.300 is, you know,

00:33:18.540 I haven't had a period

00:33:19.300 for 20 years,

00:33:20.140 I've been through the menopause,

00:33:21.400 now I've got vaginal bleeding again.

00:33:23.860 Like, I'm not sure,

00:33:25.400 when you say to me

00:33:26.360 that's transient,

00:33:27.180 people are gonna,

00:33:28.000 I'd be like,

00:33:28.460 well, is it?

00:33:29.420 How do you know that?

00:33:30.160 Have we done long-term studies

00:33:31.280 on this?

00:33:32.120 So, to me,

00:33:33.720 what you're saying is

00:33:34.940 these things are very unlikely,

00:33:37.300 most likely transient,

00:33:38.420 but, to me,

00:33:40.580 what you've just said

00:33:41.380 completely rules out

00:33:42.620 any sort of form

00:33:43.700 of social compulsion

00:33:45.220 being applied to people

00:33:46.460 to take this vaccine

00:33:47.800 because that risk is there

00:33:49.460 and I don't think

00:33:50.100 the state should be doing that.

00:33:51.100 What do you say to that?

00:33:53.500 Okay, this is great

00:33:54.840 because I agree with you

00:33:58.200 and I'll tell you a situation

00:34:00.120 where I wouldn't agree with you.

00:34:01.720 So, let's say

00:34:03.100 that this was a vaccine

00:34:05.600 that in order to protect

00:34:07.980 children from a disease

00:34:09.540 that really can harm them a lot,

00:34:12.100 to prevent the transmission

00:34:13.360 of the disease,

00:34:14.160 you needed to vaccinate

00:34:15.160 95% of kids

00:34:16.940 to generate a herd immunity

00:34:19.100 that protects

00:34:19.880 the most vulnerable children,

00:34:21.700 those who are too young

00:34:22.540 to be vaccinated

00:34:23.280 or to have other issues

00:34:25.060 that disallow them

00:34:26.540 from being vaccinated

00:34:27.440 and to accommodate

00:34:30.280 for vaccine failure

00:34:31.340 because no vaccine is perfect.

00:34:32.820 So, even in a cohort

00:34:33.720 of vaccinated people,

00:34:34.780 we see it now with COVID,

00:34:36.100 you get infected

00:34:36.780 and you can still

00:34:37.540 get sick and die.

00:34:38.480 So, how do you overcome that?

00:34:40.340 You need 95% plus

00:34:42.000 compliance with vaccine

00:34:43.380 in order to protect children.

00:34:45.260 In which case,

00:34:46.560 mandates,

00:34:47.740 which we have in the U.S.

00:34:48.940 for childhood vaccines,

00:34:50.640 actually are the only way

00:34:52.040 you can accomplish that

00:34:53.100 because there's enough

00:34:54.860 sort of hesitance

00:34:56.140 in the population

00:34:56.860 that they just simply,

00:34:58.160 they won't do it

00:34:58.740 just out of laziness

00:34:59.580 or they'll miss an appointment

00:35:00.580 or they'll have

00:35:01.520 some other exemption

00:35:02.420 that they don't want to do it.

00:35:03.640 So, it works.

00:35:04.520 Like, those mandates

00:35:05.280 actually for childhood

00:35:06.200 vaccines do work.

00:35:07.820 Now, with COVID,

00:35:09.400 you have a disease

00:35:10.080 that disproportionately

00:35:11.340 affects adults

00:35:12.440 where the vaccine

00:35:13.660 lowers transmission

00:35:14.840 a little bit

00:35:15.980 but not enough

00:35:17.560 to say you're going

00:35:18.300 to generate herd immunity

00:35:19.260 by vaccinating,

00:35:20.140 you know, 90% of people.

00:35:21.400 You'll generate herd protection

00:35:22.680 against severe disease

00:35:23.620 but even then

00:35:24.140 there's a 10% failure

00:35:25.260 because the vaccines

00:35:26.360 are even less perfect, right?

00:35:28.560 And you have a complication

00:35:30.120 potentially

00:35:30.920 that can put a child

00:35:32.180 in the hospital

00:35:33.060 in which case

00:35:34.260 mandatory state mandates

00:35:36.640 for that

00:35:37.240 are insane to me.

00:35:39.520 They're insane.

00:35:40.540 I agree with you

00:35:41.140 a thousand percent

00:35:41.860 but again,

00:35:42.820 with the caveat

00:35:43.500 that I do think

00:35:44.400 there are instances

00:35:45.040 where they do

00:35:46.300 have a place

00:35:47.420 and that's my bias, right?

00:35:48.700 Because I want

00:35:49.280 the most people

00:35:50.320 to be safe

00:35:50.940 as can be done.

00:35:52.080 And look,

00:35:52.100 if this was fucking Ebola

00:35:53.680 and it was as transmissible

00:35:56.080 as Omicron,

00:35:57.720 it would be,

00:35:58.360 I'm not saying

00:35:58.980 I would necessarily agree

00:36:00.100 but it's a different conversation.

00:36:01.440 This is not that, right?

00:36:03.840 Let's just be clear about that.

00:36:05.420 And also,

00:36:06.000 we know that the vaccine,

00:36:07.620 you know,

00:36:07.840 what it definitely does very well

00:36:09.480 is it massively reduces

00:36:10.640 your risk of being seriously ill, right?

00:36:12.780 So,

00:36:13.360 if you feel that you're vulnerable,

00:36:14.960 you can take it

00:36:15.700 to be protected, right?

00:36:17.000 You don't need to inject

00:36:18.160 five-year-olds.

00:36:19.860 I am with you.

00:36:21.520 Now,

00:36:21.820 what I'm going to do

00:36:22.540 is I'm going to play

00:36:22.960 devil's advocate

00:36:23.560 for a second, right?

00:36:24.440 Sure.

00:36:24.600 Because one of the things,

00:36:25.880 and this is my

00:36:26.880 only complaint

00:36:28.460 about Rogan

00:36:29.780 platforming guys

00:36:31.280 like Malone

00:36:32.140 and McCullough

00:36:32.880 is,

00:36:33.920 and he's talked about this

00:36:34.800 recently on a show

00:36:35.500 he did with

00:36:36.060 the comedian Tim,

00:36:37.800 he said,

00:36:38.400 look, man,

00:36:38.960 like,

00:36:39.340 I platform people

00:36:40.700 that are on the opposite side.

00:36:42.340 Like,

00:36:42.540 I had,

00:36:42.960 you know,

00:36:43.300 Rhonda Patrick on,

00:36:44.920 I had Peter Hotez on early on,

00:36:47.060 I had Osterholm on,

00:36:49.500 Mike Osterholm on.

00:36:50.620 Those were months ago

00:36:51.640 and he often will,

00:36:53.860 and Sanjay Gupta,

00:36:54.700 which was just,

00:36:55.280 that was just theater really,

00:36:56.320 but at least they had a conversation.

00:36:58.280 He doesn't go hard

00:36:59.340 on McCullough and Malone,

00:37:01.620 but he goes very hard

00:37:02.320 on those other guys.

00:37:03.120 So it's important

00:37:03.880 to platform somebody

00:37:04.960 and really also say,

00:37:07.720 okay,

00:37:07.860 well,

00:37:08.020 what's the devil's advocate

00:37:08.920 and really push on that.

00:37:10.080 I think that's an important thing to do.

00:37:11.700 You don't have to,

00:37:12.540 it's his platform.

00:37:13.420 But so let me,

00:37:14.240 let me give you the pushback

00:37:15.200 on the five-year-old mandate,

00:37:16.540 right?

00:37:16.880 So,

00:37:17.620 or vaccinating five-year-olds.

00:37:19.820 The argument would be,

00:37:21.000 and this comes from pediatricians

00:37:22.280 who take care of sick patients

00:37:23.560 in hospitals,

00:37:24.160 they see in these kids

00:37:27.100 that end up in the hospital,

00:37:28.280 about a third of them

00:37:29.140 have not a lot of comorbidities,

00:37:31.440 but their entire family

00:37:32.660 is unvaccinated.

00:37:33.700 So they're probably getting

00:37:34.400 a high viral inoculum

00:37:35.520 from the parents,

00:37:36.460 not the other way around.

00:37:38.080 And they're coming in

00:37:38.940 and for whatever reason,

00:37:39.900 they're vulnerable.

00:37:40.580 They end up on a ventilator

00:37:41.740 and some of them get very sick

00:37:43.920 and some of them die.

00:37:44.780 But either way,

00:37:45.260 they suffer a lot in the hospital.

00:37:47.180 Then that same pediatrician

00:37:48.660 will look at the studies

00:37:50.840 in like say,

00:37:51.400 the San Francisco Bay Area

00:37:52.440 where there's cocooning,

00:37:53.420 where all the adults

00:37:54.020 are vaccinated

00:37:54.660 and even before the kids

00:37:55.860 could get vaccinated,

00:37:57.360 kids weren't showing up

00:37:58.340 in the hospital.

00:37:59.080 And now the kids

00:37:59.880 are getting vaccinated.

00:38:00.620 There's a high penetrance

00:38:01.340 in the Bay Area.

00:38:02.080 Not a lot of kids

00:38:02.840 are showing up in the hospital

00:38:03.740 with COVID.

00:38:04.280 And they'll go,

00:38:04.620 well,

00:38:04.720 there it is.

00:38:05.540 So clearly,

00:38:06.260 we can save some children's lives

00:38:07.620 at a very small cost

00:38:08.760 of myocarditis,

00:38:09.560 which we also see,

00:38:10.740 but it seems to get better

00:38:11.640 they get out of the hospital.

00:38:12.440 So that's their viewpoint.

00:38:14.020 I actually disagree

00:38:14.980 with that viewpoint

00:38:15.660 because I think

00:38:16.220 it's an emotional viewpoint

00:38:17.320 they're seeing

00:38:17.780 because they're seeing

00:38:18.560 this stuff.

00:38:19.300 What they're not seeing

00:38:20.500 is the area under the curve

00:38:21.660 of the societal disruption,

00:38:23.380 the compulsion,

00:38:24.460 the stress on parents

00:38:25.600 who feel they're being

00:38:26.340 compelled to do something,

00:38:27.780 the authoritarian

00:38:28.460 sort of slide into

00:38:30.140 this is now okay to do

00:38:31.380 for things that are like COVID.

00:38:33.720 Where does it end?

00:38:35.260 And again,

00:38:37.000 so I agree with you there,

00:38:38.640 but that would be the pushback.

00:38:40.320 I see.

00:38:40.900 Well,

00:38:41.260 the pushback to the pushback

00:38:43.200 for me would be

00:38:43.940 the opening of that door

00:38:45.820 is like you're allowed

00:38:47.000 to feed your kid to death,

00:38:48.880 right?

00:38:49.580 So do we want to mandate,

00:38:51.800 you know,

00:38:52.540 diet?

00:38:53.220 Like how,

00:38:54.020 where do you go with this?

00:38:56.740 That's the door

00:38:57.620 that worries me

00:38:58.420 being opened.

00:38:59.500 It's interesting

00:39:00.100 because that does

00:39:00.900 dovetail right

00:39:02.300 into the question

00:39:02.860 of like,

00:39:03.260 man,

00:39:03.540 and Rogan brings this up a lot

00:39:04.820 and he gets accused

00:39:05.880 of fat shaming

00:39:06.580 and things like that.

00:39:07.380 But basically

00:39:07.840 what he's saying is,

00:39:08.700 look,

00:39:08.920 can we talk about

00:39:09.660 the obesity epidemic

00:39:10.740 that's actually caused

00:39:11.680 America to be pure dry tinder

00:39:13.680 for this pandemic?

00:39:15.200 Like in thin,

00:39:16.820 younger populations

00:39:17.620 like in Africa,

00:39:18.380 they do much better.

00:39:19.900 But here,

00:39:20.640 we're a bunch of fat,

00:39:21.800 lazy fucks

00:39:22.720 who,

00:39:23.260 you know,

00:39:23.640 sit in front of the TV

00:39:24.620 and so what happens?

00:39:26.360 This disease is perfectly designed

00:39:28.120 to cull the herd.

00:39:29.740 Like it hurts the elderly

00:39:31.400 and it hurts people

00:39:32.180 who are obese

00:39:34.000 and have chronic disease.

00:39:35.340 It's often secondary

00:39:36.100 to obesity

00:39:36.660 or lifestyle choice.

00:39:37.700 Not always.

00:39:38.820 So what do we do about,

00:39:40.840 like,

00:39:41.320 do you treat them

00:39:42.200 with the same scarlet letter?

00:39:43.420 You know,

00:39:44.040 it becomes

00:39:45.380 this very complex dynamic

00:39:47.180 and then it gets

00:39:48.320 to the root of like,

00:39:49.040 do we even have free will?

00:39:50.260 Like,

00:39:50.520 are these people

00:39:51.200 even making choices

00:39:52.140 or are they

00:39:52.960 the reflection

00:39:53.800 of something larger

00:39:54.900 that's feeding back to them,

00:39:56.240 unconscious processes,

00:39:57.380 conditioning,

00:39:57.900 genetics,

00:39:58.720 education,

00:39:59.400 all that?

00:40:01.240 And that's where

00:40:01.920 it just becomes,

00:40:02.920 I always err

00:40:03.920 on the libertarian side

00:40:04.920 where I'm like,

00:40:05.360 you know what,

00:40:05.840 give people

00:40:06.240 as much education

00:40:07.000 as you can,

00:40:08.080 have policies

00:40:08.740 that prevent us

00:40:09.360 from yelling fire

00:40:10.140 in a theater

00:40:10.660 or burning down a building.

00:40:11.860 But other than that,

00:40:12.880 you really have to take

00:40:14.240 the fact that

00:40:14.920 a lot of humans

00:40:15.620 are still figuring shit out

00:40:16.900 and let it be,

00:40:17.880 you know?

00:40:18.420 Yeah,

00:40:18.840 and so you use

00:40:19.700 the example of Africa

00:40:20.760 and the pushback

00:40:21.500 that I always say is,

00:40:22.920 but then why is South America

00:40:24.120 so badly affected?

00:40:25.640 Around about a third

00:40:26.540 of all COVID deaths

00:40:27.500 are in South America

00:40:28.500 and with the exception

00:40:29.840 of a few,

00:40:30.640 a very small percentage

00:40:32.140 of the population,

00:40:33.600 South America

00:40:34.400 has deep levels

00:40:35.580 of poverty.

00:40:37.000 So this is interesting

00:40:38.300 and I,

00:40:39.080 again,

00:40:39.260 we don't have an answer

00:40:39.880 for this,

00:40:40.400 but I would say

00:40:41.120 there's a couple

00:40:41.780 of interesting pieces here.

00:40:44.020 Africa may also have

00:40:45.900 a lot of exposure

00:40:46.760 to natural coronaviruses

00:40:48.060 that come out of Asia.

00:40:49.280 So that's one theory

00:40:50.400 is they have some

00:40:51.020 preexisting T cell immunity.

00:40:52.880 The second is

00:40:53.720 levels of activity

00:40:55.240 may be higher in Africa,

00:40:56.480 but the third is

00:40:57.780 the population

00:40:59.500 of folks

00:41:00.520 in South America

00:41:01.640 tend to genetically

00:41:02.960 have predispositions

00:41:04.380 towards insulin resistance

00:41:05.760 and metabolic syndrome.

00:41:07.580 So if you look at,

00:41:08.700 say, for example,

00:41:09.260 even the Mexican population

00:41:10.500 that comes to the US,

00:41:11.820 they are diabetic,

00:41:13.120 hypertensive,

00:41:14.140 obese,

00:41:14.680 because they're eating

00:41:15.340 a Western diet.

00:41:16.260 And I think what we're seeing

00:41:17.360 in South America

00:41:17.980 is the westernization

00:41:18.860 of the diet.

00:41:20.000 These folks have

00:41:20.600 more metabolic syndrome

00:41:21.620 and they're more at risk

00:41:22.880 than you would think.

00:41:23.860 There's a condition

00:41:24.500 called skinny fat.

00:41:26.280 It's a sort of lay term

00:41:28.080 for this idea

00:41:29.340 that people can look skinny,

00:41:31.460 but actually be

00:41:32.280 very metabolically unwell,

00:41:33.700 have a lot of fat

00:41:34.600 around their intestines

00:41:36.200 and stuff

00:41:36.600 that's metabolically

00:41:37.820 inflammatory.

00:41:39.020 And that inflammatory setup,

00:41:41.120 I had a doctor

00:41:41.620 on the show

00:41:41.980 called Ron Sinha

00:41:43.160 who speaks to this.

00:41:44.540 That inflammatory setup

00:41:45.520 is like, again,

00:41:46.160 more kindling for COVID

00:41:47.340 to just cause

00:41:48.000 the cytokine storm

00:41:49.280 that lands people

00:41:50.440 in the hospital.

00:41:51.500 One other point on that,

00:41:52.460 so Brazil,

00:41:53.060 it has these huge death rates.

00:41:54.640 They use a lot of ivermectin.

00:41:55.940 And again,

00:41:56.260 I think it goes to show

00:41:57.680 that you can't look

00:41:58.740 at kind of observational data

00:41:59.880 to make a decision

00:42:00.840 on something like ivermectin

00:42:02.040 because it's conflicting.

00:42:03.300 You really need to do

00:42:04.820 a good randomized control trial.

00:42:07.140 And that being the case,

00:42:08.240 Subin,

00:42:08.420 we know that.

00:42:09.520 Why is the government

00:42:10.440 not putting out

00:42:11.780 adverts saying,

00:42:13.400 look,

00:42:13.980 if you're morbidly obese,

00:42:15.520 you are in real danger

00:42:17.380 with this illness.

00:42:18.700 You're going to need

00:42:19.500 to lose weight.

00:42:20.220 It's that simple.

00:42:21.400 Why are we not doing that?

00:42:22.560 Why are we not encouraging

00:42:23.460 people to eat better?

00:42:24.740 Why did we shut gyms?

00:42:28.100 This is one of the great failures

00:42:29.660 of Western medicine

00:42:31.380 in general

00:42:32.140 is we love,

00:42:33.240 we get paid.

00:42:34.640 This is something

00:42:35.140 where I'm very sympathetic

00:42:36.380 to Malone and Malone's point

00:42:39.220 that like,

00:42:39.760 hey,

00:42:39.980 you know,

00:42:40.180 even the way

00:42:40.740 we medically code things,

00:42:42.420 I don't think there's

00:42:43.000 massive fraud going on

00:42:44.160 with COVID coding,

00:42:45.100 but I do think

00:42:45.720 he's absolutely right

00:42:46.820 to point out incentives,

00:42:47.880 right?

00:42:48.540 So we are paid

00:42:50.240 to fix the problems

00:42:51.440 of obesity and all that.

00:42:52.620 And our public health funding

00:42:53.960 to prevent those problems

00:42:55.160 is very small.

00:42:55.980 And there's a lot

00:42:56.420 of skepticism

00:42:57.060 in public health circles

00:42:58.760 even that it can be done

00:43:00.020 because the availability

00:43:01.960 of shitty food

00:43:03.240 in the poorest areas

00:43:04.400 of the country

00:43:05.140 and in urban areas,

00:43:06.440 et cetera,

00:43:07.000 is ubiquitous,

00:43:08.240 but you can't get

00:43:09.260 fresh produce

00:43:10.060 and that kind of thing.

00:43:10.680 It's more expensive.

00:43:11.580 So often these diseases

00:43:13.220 are diseases of poverty.

00:43:14.960 Like in rural Mississippi,

00:43:16.960 everybody's massively obese

00:43:18.480 because all they're eating

00:43:19.620 is the cheapest,

00:43:20.460 most available food,

00:43:21.340 which is terrible.

00:43:22.380 Education levels are lower.

00:43:23.480 So wealth and education

00:43:26.420 correlate to longer lifespans.

00:43:28.320 And why is that?

00:43:29.140 Well, we might be able

00:43:30.460 to afford,

00:43:31.100 I'm gonna put myself

00:43:31.740 in the rich category

00:43:32.600 because I'm upper middle class.

00:43:34.380 Like we might be able

00:43:35.220 to afford a nice meal

00:43:38.660 with fresh produce

00:43:39.580 and all of that

00:43:40.240 and cook it

00:43:40.900 and then go out

00:43:41.700 to eat at nicer restaurants

00:43:42.700 and have our one glass of wine

00:43:44.200 and not overdo it

00:43:45.240 and not drink a 10 pack

00:43:46.580 of beer and all that.

00:43:47.420 But somebody who's

00:43:48.360 a single mother

00:43:50.160 working multiple jobs,

00:43:51.720 got to feed her kids

00:43:52.660 and do all this.

00:43:53.240 That's not an option, right?

00:43:54.440 And so what do they do?

00:43:55.440 What do we do?

00:43:56.180 We don't talk about it.

00:43:57.220 We don't teach about it.

00:43:58.280 We closed schools

00:43:59.340 where kids were getting

00:44:00.240 decent nutrition

00:44:02.080 and education and exercise.

00:44:04.280 And instead we put them

00:44:05.240 in a house

00:44:05.720 and tell them lockdown.

00:44:07.360 And we have actually set

00:44:08.980 this population

00:44:09.800 of vulnerables back

00:44:10.740 by an order of magnitude.

00:44:11.960 And by the way,

00:44:12.420 they're the ones

00:44:12.980 delivering our food

00:44:14.560 for the rich Zoomocracy

00:44:15.780 that can sit here at home

00:44:16.880 and tsk, tsk,

00:44:18.020 wear a mask on our avatar

00:44:19.320 and complain.

00:44:20.580 And then now Omicron

00:44:21.620 is the great equalizer

00:44:22.420 and all those fuckers

00:44:23.380 are getting it too.

00:44:24.120 And now they're like,

00:44:24.680 well, I guess it's okay

00:44:25.480 to get COVID.

00:44:26.200 We might as well

00:44:26.700 just let it go.

00:44:28.280 It's like, fuck, you know?

00:44:30.260 Well, I want to get

00:44:31.320 to Omicron in a second,

00:44:32.920 but sticking again

00:44:34.140 sort of with the medical

00:44:35.200 questions for you,

00:44:36.800 you know,

00:44:37.680 one of the things

00:44:38.380 that people obviously

00:44:39.420 have advanced

00:44:40.280 about questioning

00:44:41.700 the safety of the vaccines

00:44:43.000 is the idea

00:44:43.780 of spike protein toxicity, right?

00:44:47.220 And what I'd be curious

00:44:48.300 about Zoom,

00:44:48.780 because ordinary people

00:44:50.280 like me and Francis

00:44:51.600 and many of the people

00:44:52.340 watching this

00:44:52.960 and listening to this now,

00:44:54.020 we have no way

00:44:55.000 of assessing

00:44:55.540 whether that claim is true.

00:44:57.480 Now, I would argue

00:44:59.340 that if the vaccine

00:45:00.880 was toxic

00:45:01.860 and it was killing

00:45:02.880 or maiming lots of people,

00:45:05.020 that has to show up

00:45:06.240 somewhere, right?

00:45:07.340 It has to show up

00:45:08.240 in hospital admissions,

00:45:09.360 it has to show up

00:45:10.060 in databases

00:45:10.800 and whatever.

00:45:11.360 And I'm sure

00:45:11.940 there's ways for that

00:45:13.720 to not be counted

00:45:14.980 quite right or whatever,

00:45:16.000 but like how would we,

00:45:17.540 if that were happening,

00:45:18.520 how would we know

00:45:19.140 that it was happening?

00:45:20.380 Yeah, it's a great question.

00:45:21.760 And by the way,

00:45:22.180 do not let me forget

00:45:23.380 to address the footballers

00:45:25.320 dropping dead thing.

00:45:26.180 Yes.

00:45:26.860 Why don't you do that first

00:45:28.000 and then we'll get

00:45:28.620 to the spike protein.

00:45:29.200 Okay, great.

00:45:29.640 Yeah, so let me just

00:45:30.280 remember this question.

00:45:31.420 It's about spike protein toxicity.

00:45:33.080 How would we know

00:45:33.720 safety in that?

00:45:35.080 Okay, good.

00:45:35.700 So the footballer thing

00:45:37.220 is interesting.

00:45:38.680 I actually dug into this

00:45:40.440 a little bit more.

00:45:41.060 So that idea

00:45:42.380 that elite footballers

00:45:44.800 are dropping dead,

00:45:45.800 about 108 or so.

00:45:47.820 Not dead, not dead,

00:45:48.520 having seizures.

00:45:50.220 A lot of them are,

00:45:51.260 a few are dropping dead,

00:45:52.400 but a lot of them

00:45:53.040 are having some kind

00:45:54.160 of collapse on the field

00:45:55.440 due to their heart issues.

00:45:57.500 Okay, so the piece

00:46:00.000 that I was seeing

00:46:01.080 that was the most prevalent

00:46:02.340 was the idea

00:46:03.020 that people were having

00:46:03.900 cardiac arrest

00:46:04.780 and dropping on the field, right?

00:46:06.400 Some were.

00:46:06.960 So not necessarily

00:46:07.400 a seizure per se.

00:46:08.780 Am I missing something?

00:46:09.820 Seizure is probably

00:46:10.540 the wrong word.

00:46:12.140 Some elite athletes

00:46:13.540 are dying with cardiac issues.

00:46:16.100 Right.

00:46:16.340 And many morally athletes

00:46:18.340 are either collapsing

00:46:20.400 with cardiac issues

00:46:21.700 or are showing cardiac issues

00:46:24.060 in testing

00:46:24.820 that football clubs often do

00:46:26.920 and are then being prevented

00:46:28.500 from playing elite sport forever

00:46:30.360 because they have

00:46:31.560 a new heart issue

00:46:32.300 that they didn't have before.

00:46:33.400 That is the allegation.

00:46:34.780 I don't know whether it's true,

00:46:36.100 but that is what

00:46:36.880 we're being told.

00:46:38.660 Interesting.

00:46:39.140 Okay, so I have not seen

00:46:40.400 the data

00:46:41.080 on that aspect of it,

00:46:43.180 the non-fatal aspect of it.

00:46:44.840 Right.

00:46:45.220 But I have seen the data

00:46:46.240 on the fatal aspect

00:46:47.420 because remember,

00:46:47.980 this started somewhere, right?

00:46:49.300 This idea that this is happening.

00:46:51.040 Yeah.

00:46:51.560 It came to the fore.

00:46:52.700 Kind of like

00:46:53.340 when you do vaccine surveillance

00:46:54.500 and you see blood clots

00:46:55.800 in the Johnson & Johnson vaccine,

00:46:57.060 which we'll talk about,

00:46:58.100 how is that detected, right?

00:46:59.980 So this was not detected

00:47:01.660 in vaccine database screening.

00:47:04.520 So they were not seeing this.

00:47:06.000 So where they were seeing this

00:47:07.420 was there was

00:47:07.880 an Israeli alternative news article

00:47:10.140 that said, hey,

00:47:10.660 about 108 of these elite athletes

00:47:13.120 have died,

00:47:14.240 presumably,

00:47:14.900 and most of them

00:47:15.500 have cardiac issues.

00:47:16.360 They reviewed news reports,

00:47:18.220 et cetera,

00:47:18.600 since the vaccine was released.

00:47:21.780 And so, you know,

00:47:23.160 I'll let you decide

00:47:24.080 what that is.

00:47:25.240 And the assumption is

00:47:26.560 it's likely vaccine-related,

00:47:28.620 myocarditis causing

00:47:29.460 rhythm abnormalities

00:47:31.240 and heart damage

00:47:32.200 and that sort of thing.

00:47:33.340 And it makes,

00:47:34.060 boy, it makes intuitive sense

00:47:35.200 because you're like,

00:47:35.780 yeah, if you have myocarditis

00:47:36.900 and you don't diagnose it

00:47:38.360 and you go out

00:47:39.400 and exercise a lot,

00:47:41.620 you can trigger

00:47:42.660 arrhythmia,

00:47:44.760 a heart rhythm problem

00:47:45.880 and that can be fatal

00:47:47.360 if it's not treated right away

00:47:48.600 with an automated

00:47:49.640 defibrillator device.

00:47:52.100 So this is quite compelling.

00:47:54.280 Well, when you actually

00:47:55.040 look at where that,

00:47:56.300 and then that started spreading

00:47:57.460 through the neuronal network

00:47:58.800 of the antithesis tribe

00:48:00.740 through places like BitChute

00:48:02.380 and Rumble

00:48:02.780 and all of that,

00:48:03.540 those are kind of

00:48:04.020 the transmitter nodes.

00:48:05.060 And pretty soon it became like,

00:48:06.580 wait, now what's going on here?

00:48:08.380 So mainstream tribe

00:48:10.080 then tries to look at that

00:48:11.800 and they go,

00:48:12.380 wait, well,

00:48:12.600 so what's going on?

00:48:14.060 Because that would be

00:48:15.020 a serious concern.

00:48:16.400 Turns out a lot of the athletes

00:48:18.760 that were looked at in that

00:48:20.320 were not necessarily

00:48:21.120 football players.

00:48:22.000 So they were athletes

00:48:22.740 of all kinds,

00:48:23.420 including coaches

00:48:24.260 and caddies and golf

00:48:26.300 and those kinds of things

00:48:27.100 and of all ages

00:48:28.060 and all sexes.

00:48:29.560 So really unlikely

00:48:31.060 that myocarditis was there.

00:48:32.260 And then they went back

00:48:33.000 and said, wait,

00:48:33.480 some of them actually

00:48:34.060 predated the vaccine

00:48:35.180 and a lot of them

00:48:36.480 in the news reports,

00:48:37.800 it was actually figured out

00:48:40.140 that they had some congenital thing

00:48:41.380 or something else.

00:48:42.100 And there were three cases

00:48:43.180 where the question

00:48:44.320 of vaccine relation to it

00:48:46.420 actually did arise

00:48:47.260 and it wasn't resolved.

00:48:48.780 So when then you look back

00:48:51.000 and you talk to say,

00:48:52.140 there was a charity

00:48:53.700 that represents in Great Britain

00:48:55.220 in the UK,

00:48:57.580 young kids

00:48:59.060 who have congenital heart abnormalities

00:49:00.740 like that can promote arrhythmias

00:49:03.560 and sudden cardiac death,

00:49:05.460 they said in 2008,

00:49:07.100 there was a study

00:49:07.580 that said 12 of these folks

00:49:09.840 would die every week,

00:49:12.120 would collapse every week

00:49:13.500 in the UK alone.

00:49:15.600 So if you look at that

00:49:17.240 sort of trend as background,

00:49:18.980 you can then start to listen

00:49:20.300 to what the major sports associations,

00:49:22.480 medical departments

00:49:23.120 were saying

00:49:23.760 in response to this article,

00:49:24.980 which was,

00:49:25.860 we're not seeing anything

00:49:27.160 above and beyond

00:49:27.920 what we would expect

00:49:28.740 to see normally.

00:49:30.380 Now, with this newer information,

00:49:31.680 I don't know,

00:49:32.100 I'd have to look at that data

00:49:33.060 to see where that's coming from.

00:49:34.880 But that's the best.

00:49:36.060 Yeah.

00:49:36.920 All right.

00:49:37.320 So let's go to

00:49:38.220 the spike protein toxicity,

00:49:39.500 which kind of ties

00:49:40.360 into this whole thing anyway.

00:49:42.140 Yeah.

00:49:42.640 So this thing,

00:49:43.900 okay.

00:49:45.720 One thing to remember

00:49:46.760 is in the original trials,

00:49:49.220 these were what,

00:49:50.100 40,000 people in the arms

00:49:51.820 and so on.

00:49:52.460 And you're looking

00:49:53.620 for complications.

00:49:55.820 And again,

00:49:56.200 in the history of vaccines,

00:49:57.280 we see things show up

00:49:58.240 in the first two months.

00:49:58.920 That doesn't mean

00:49:59.400 something new can't happen,

00:50:00.600 right?

00:50:01.100 So this is what they saw.

00:50:03.280 And this is where I think

00:50:04.120 Malone is being

00:50:05.220 a little disingenuous

00:50:06.380 when he says

00:50:06.920 Pfizer never got approved,

00:50:09.660 never studied the safety

00:50:10.960 of their spike protein,

00:50:12.280 except that they did

00:50:13.720 in the massive

00:50:14.880 randomized control trial.

00:50:16.060 And the other thing

00:50:16.520 that he says

00:50:16.880 that's incorrect

00:50:17.340 is there was never

00:50:18.200 preclinical studies,

00:50:19.240 animals and all that.

00:50:19.980 They are,

00:50:20.460 there are,

00:50:20.900 and they're available online

00:50:21.800 and you can look at them.

00:50:23.160 But the bigger point here is,

00:50:25.560 is the spike protein

00:50:27.480 produced by the vaccine

00:50:28.700 toxic?

00:50:29.820 And this has been something,

00:50:30.820 you know,

00:50:31.080 Byram Bridal and,

00:50:33.400 I forget who else

00:50:35.160 is saying this kind of thing.

00:50:36.360 It's been a big trope

00:50:38.820 in the antithesis tribe

00:50:39.960 that this thing is toxic.

00:50:41.120 So why would we want

00:50:42.160 to induce our body

00:50:43.980 to make it?

00:50:45.280 Well,

00:50:45.760 in those trials,

00:50:46.920 they saw none

00:50:47.780 of the toxicities

00:50:48.680 that are described

00:50:50.320 to spike protein toxicities,

00:50:52.200 like major heart damage,

00:50:54.140 ovarian failure,

00:50:55.700 liver and kidney failure.

00:50:57.240 We see none of that,

00:50:58.260 none of that in the trials.

00:50:59.600 Okay, fine.

00:51:00.100 So what about the real world?

00:51:01.660 We see none of that.

00:51:02.900 So the ongoing surveillance,

00:51:05.400 we don't see it.

00:51:06.580 And in the real world,

00:51:08.720 so,

00:51:09.520 and then I'm gonna,

00:51:10.160 I'm gonna talk about too

00:51:11.020 about Johnson & Johnson.

00:51:12.420 In the real world,

00:51:13.460 it's like,

00:51:13.840 let's look at my,

00:51:14.860 you know,

00:51:15.280 bastion of liberaldom on earth.

00:51:17.720 It's like,

00:51:18.080 you know,

00:51:18.320 Queen Galadriel here

00:51:19.380 with her,

00:51:19.900 you know,

00:51:20.260 ring applying communism.

00:51:22.060 Where I live,

00:51:22.900 that's what it feels like,

00:51:24.260 but everybody's vaccinated.

00:51:25.800 So it's 81%

00:51:27.200 general penetrance of vaccine.

00:51:28.780 And that includes children

00:51:30.480 who cannot be vaccinated.

00:51:31.840 So it's even higher

00:51:33.080 in people who are eligible

00:51:34.060 for vaccine.

00:51:35.520 All these vaccinated people,

00:51:37.460 all different ages.

00:51:38.820 I know every single hospital here

00:51:40.500 and I talk to everybody.

00:51:41.740 We see none of the things

00:51:43.620 surging that

00:51:44.580 the Malones and others

00:51:46.460 would say we ought to be seeing

00:51:47.780 and that they claim

00:51:48.640 they are seeing.

00:51:49.420 We are not seeing it.

00:51:50.580 So on the ground,

00:51:51.560 not seeing it.

00:51:52.140 Now,

00:51:52.400 what we do see

00:51:52.920 is some COVID,

00:51:54.300 but not that much here.

00:51:55.760 And we're seeing

00:51:56.580 sort of asymptomatic

00:51:57.560 and minimally symptomatic Omicron.

00:51:59.780 So we're just not seeing that.

00:52:01.220 Now,

00:52:01.480 what about actual surveillance?

00:52:03.280 So here's where I think,

00:52:05.480 and again,

00:52:06.000 maybe I'm biased

00:52:06.960 because I don't think

00:52:08.660 that all these entities

00:52:09.640 are poisoned by conflict

00:52:11.560 as much as say

00:52:12.660 a Malone or McCullough

00:52:13.780 might say,

00:52:14.820 because it's also

00:52:15.580 a very convenient thing to say.

00:52:16.880 It's like,

00:52:17.100 well,

00:52:17.420 whatever data you give me,

00:52:18.620 I'm just gonna say

00:52:19.360 that it's poisoned by conflict.

00:52:20.580 Like for example,

00:52:21.140 if Reuters does a fact-checking thing,

00:52:22.740 well,

00:52:23.200 Reuters board sits on Pfizer's board.

00:52:25.420 So of course they're gonna say that.

00:52:27.160 Well,

00:52:27.340 so here's what's interesting.

00:52:28.600 Johnson & Johnson

00:52:29.340 and related to it,

00:52:31.260 AstraZeneca,

00:52:32.040 the one that's more used in UK.

00:52:34.920 This vaccine,

00:52:36.280 major pharmaceutical company,

00:52:38.140 not just a pharmaceutical company,

00:52:39.420 a multinational conglomerate.

00:52:41.800 They make everything

00:52:42.440 from baby powder

00:52:43.740 to Band-Aids

00:52:44.560 to whatever it is they make,

00:52:45.680 right?

00:52:45.840 Huge company.

00:52:48.140 If there is a global conspiracy

00:52:50.040 to hide vaccine complications

00:52:52.600 and promote vaccination,

00:52:54.840 Johnson & Johnson

00:52:55.440 did not get the memo

00:52:56.440 because their vaccine,

00:52:58.800 early on,

00:52:59.700 there were cases reported

00:53:00.860 of very unusual blood clotting,

00:53:03.580 the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis

00:53:05.760 and things like that.

00:53:06.860 This happens

00:53:07.580 in the background population

00:53:09.080 very rarely.

00:53:09.980 So very quickly,

00:53:11.260 the standard screening databases

00:53:12.620 picked this up

00:53:13.660 and it got jumped on

00:53:15.460 to the degree

00:53:15.840 where they actually paused

00:53:17.000 the rollout of the vaccine

00:53:18.620 which actually caused

00:53:19.900 irreparable harm

00:53:20.760 to the vaccine in general

00:53:21.940 and this got pounded on.

00:53:24.580 Everybody was talking about it.

00:53:26.020 Everybody was looking at it.

00:53:27.000 We were talking about,

00:53:27.700 okay,

00:53:27.860 what age group does it happen

00:53:29.160 and what's the risk?

00:53:30.000 And because we had another vaccine,

00:53:31.800 I think they were more,

00:53:32.620 even more aggressive about it.

00:53:33.760 If it was the only vaccine,

00:53:35.060 I don't think they would have paused it.

00:53:36.320 They would have said,

00:53:36.840 here's the risks.

00:53:37.560 You guys know now.

00:53:38.460 We still think you should get it

00:53:39.520 which is basically what they said

00:53:40.860 but they never would have paused it.

00:53:42.540 So it got caught

00:53:43.400 it got looked at

00:53:44.860 and I think

00:53:47.360 that was a very rare event.

00:53:50.200 So events where spike protein

00:53:51.920 is clearly toxic,

00:53:53.140 you would see it

00:53:53.720 and you would see it

00:53:54.180 across every vaccine

00:53:55.300 because all those spike proteins

00:53:56.480 are being produced

00:53:57.200 are that wild type Wuhan spike protein.

00:53:59.780 So we just don't see it in practice.

00:54:01.620 Now,

00:54:02.160 could there be something we're missing?

00:54:03.480 Sure.

00:54:04.080 I think it'd be very unlikely

00:54:06.360 and again,

00:54:06.940 this may be some of my medical bias

00:54:08.440 showing up

00:54:09.420 because we've just never seen it before

00:54:11.040 but I think it's pretty compelling so far.

00:54:14.500 Subin,

00:54:15.040 isn't the problem as well

00:54:16.180 is that a lot of people

00:54:17.500 don't trust pharmaceutical companies

00:54:19.760 and for many reasons

00:54:21.780 they actually have a point.

00:54:23.780 If you look at the opioid crisis

00:54:25.500 in America,

00:54:26.380 that has been created

00:54:28.380 by the pharmaceutical companies.

00:54:30.860 So when they see them rolling out vaccines

00:54:35.280 and being urged to take it,

00:54:38.080 you can't blame people for going,

00:54:40.040 well,

00:54:40.220 I don't want anything to do with it.

00:54:41.920 Particularly if you come from communities

00:54:44.820 which have been decimated

00:54:46.100 by the crisis.

00:54:48.960 I think,

00:54:49.580 see this is interesting

00:54:50.280 because there's a feeling

00:54:53.940 in the mainstream

00:54:54.600 that they want to defend

00:54:55.780 pharmaceutical companies

00:54:57.080 as great saviors of mankind,

00:54:58.780 right?

00:54:59.060 Nobody's able to actually speak

00:55:01.160 with nuance on pharmaceuticals

00:55:02.780 and here's my take on pharmaceuticals

00:55:04.400 and I've done like music video parodies

00:55:06.100 making fun of pharmaceutical companies

00:55:07.860 but I still get called a shill

00:55:09.200 by,

00:55:10.100 you know,

00:55:11.120 hardcore antithesis tribe members

00:55:12.580 in any video I make.

00:55:14.080 So,

00:55:15.020 the big pharmaceutical companies

00:55:16.760 are an epiphenomenon.

00:55:18.140 They're an emergent property

00:55:19.440 of a capitalist marketplace

00:55:21.020 that is not really capitalist.

00:55:24.340 It's a kind of a oligopoly.

00:55:26.440 So,

00:55:26.840 these huge,

00:55:27.940 huge entities

00:55:29.060 that are actually molded

00:55:30.280 by the regulations

00:55:31.360 and the regulators

00:55:32.700 that manage them

00:55:34.180 in this dynamic way

00:55:35.180 that then creates an oligopoly

00:55:37.100 because the only people

00:55:37.820 that can afford

00:55:38.320 to get drugs to market

00:55:39.180 are these massive bureaucratic machines.

00:55:42.460 They themselves

00:55:43.540 are poisonous,

00:55:45.700 horrible entities

00:55:46.780 because you have

00:55:47.600 the marketing side

00:55:48.440 that's pushing to consumers

00:55:49.720 drugs that would be better avoided

00:55:52.140 when you can just eat well,

00:55:53.820 exercise,

00:55:54.200 spend that money on education

00:55:56.520 and food

00:55:57.140 and gyms

00:55:58.620 and those kind of things

00:55:59.340 and just horrible business practices.

00:56:02.900 They're a bunch of liars.

00:56:04.320 They're manipulators.

00:56:05.660 Absolutely awful human beings

00:56:07.900 on that side,

00:56:09.100 right?

00:56:09.980 Then you get to the research

00:56:11.040 and development side.

00:56:11.980 These are the people that I know.

00:56:13.120 I have a lot of friends

00:56:13.860 in these departments.

00:56:14.980 They are there to help humans.

00:56:17.240 They're amazing scientists,

00:56:18.480 doctors,

00:56:19.100 pharmacists,

00:56:19.880 nurses that work

00:56:20.580 in these companies

00:56:21.160 and they're the ones

00:56:22.620 that are driving

00:56:23.120 the engine of innovation.

00:56:24.720 It's the other ones

00:56:25.620 that totally fuck it up.

00:56:27.140 The opioid thing,

00:56:28.480 it was a great tale

00:56:30.280 of how incredibly evil

00:56:32.180 these companies can behave

00:56:34.200 due to profit motive.

00:56:35.640 Yeah,

00:56:36.040 we ought to be

00:56:37.360 absolutely suspicious.

00:56:38.740 That's when I listen

00:56:39.540 to Malone talk about that.

00:56:41.720 That's when I'm like,

00:56:42.500 my brother,

00:56:43.520 I'm with you.

00:56:44.560 Everything you're saying

00:56:45.560 is resonating with me.

00:56:46.660 I'm ready to storm

00:56:47.460 the Bastille,

00:56:48.200 right?

00:56:49.020 At the same time,

00:56:50.660 we would have to form

00:56:51.460 a fence around those researchers

00:56:52.680 that are doing the hard work

00:56:53.960 and some of the smaller companies

00:56:55.420 that are trying.

00:56:56.700 It's just,

00:56:57.240 the incentives have to change.

00:56:59.060 It's insane.

00:57:00.300 Of course,

00:57:01.120 the regulators

00:57:01.760 are the pharmaceutical guys,

00:57:03.320 are the regulators.

00:57:04.280 There is that capture.

00:57:05.540 It is absolutely real.

00:57:06.580 At the same time,

00:57:07.780 the Federal Food

00:57:09.180 and Drug Administration

00:57:10.060 is a massive bureaucracy

00:57:11.420 that actually slows down

00:57:13.500 the approval of drugs

00:57:14.400 that actually might help

00:57:15.740 and speeds up drugs

00:57:17.300 that don't work,

00:57:17.880 like Adahelm,

00:57:18.760 which was an Alzheimer's drug.

00:57:20.220 They finally had to back off

00:57:21.620 and they finally said today,

00:57:23.020 hey,

00:57:23.100 Medicare said in the United States

00:57:24.640 what funds our medicine says,

00:57:26.360 we're not paying for this

00:57:27.220 for most people

00:57:27.760 because it doesn't work

00:57:28.780 no matter what FDA said

00:57:30.160 where they were so influenced

00:57:31.640 by the pharma,

00:57:32.880 Biogen,

00:57:33.500 the pharmaceutical.

00:57:34.160 So you should be suspicious

00:57:35.380 of that shit.

00:57:37.320 I was going to say as well,

00:57:38.980 the problem for me

00:57:40.120 is that

00:57:40.800 when we talk about

00:57:43.260 things like spike proteins

00:57:44.860 or all this other stuff,

00:57:46.500 so I have got no experience

00:57:49.620 in science really.

00:57:51.520 I stopped studying science

00:57:53.200 when I was 16

00:57:54.540 and I had an arts-based education,

00:57:57.120 right?

00:57:57.860 The problem for me is this.

00:57:59.540 I watched a very good documentary

00:58:02.080 about flat earthers

00:58:03.300 and they were talking

00:58:05.040 to this...

00:58:06.960 You found it very persuasive.

00:58:07.960 Yeah, it was.

00:58:08.620 It was great.

00:58:09.240 I'm now a flat earther.

00:58:11.080 It's great.

00:58:12.300 It's not round.

00:58:13.460 It's flat.

00:58:14.140 It makes sense.

00:58:15.240 The ground is flat.

00:58:16.020 It's a conspiracy.

00:58:16.980 The world is flat.

00:58:18.260 It's total common sense.

00:58:20.000 Yeah.

00:58:20.600 But this is the point

00:58:21.860 and I've mentioned that

00:58:22.700 to you this in other interviews.

00:58:23.880 They interviewed this NASA scientist

00:58:25.240 and it always stuck with me.

00:58:27.200 She went,

00:58:27.880 the reason these people believe that

00:58:29.980 is the fault of the scientists

00:58:32.640 because we are not transmitting

00:58:35.020 the information to them

00:58:37.360 in a manner that a layman

00:58:39.660 would be able to understand.

00:58:41.100 So actually,

00:58:42.440 every time they're saying this stuff,

00:58:45.160 it's a fault of me and my peers.

00:58:47.140 And by the way,

00:58:48.040 just to add very briefly

00:58:49.260 to that, Zubin, as well,

00:58:50.360 I think part of it is

00:58:51.700 presenting information

00:58:53.400 in a way that people can understand.

00:58:55.200 But I think with COVID,

00:58:56.580 it's also partly presenting information

00:58:58.940 in a way that people can accept.

00:59:01.840 And that's the piece

00:59:03.020 that I think a lot of people

00:59:04.360 who do what you do pretty well,

00:59:07.320 there are other people

00:59:08.120 who maybe have the same medical expertise

00:59:10.460 and they can come in

00:59:11.500 and they can explain

00:59:12.360 why some of the antithesis stuff

00:59:13.960 is not true,

00:59:15.180 but they're doing it

00:59:16.200 with a sort of disdain.

00:59:18.500 And they're going,

00:59:19.360 oh, this Malone character

00:59:20.740 and they spend hours on Twitter

00:59:22.240 debunking his qualifications.

00:59:24.240 I don't care about

00:59:25.260 Robert Malone's qualifications.

00:59:26.860 I care if he's telling the truth or not.

00:59:28.300 That's all I care about.

00:59:29.540 You know what I mean?

00:59:29.960 Well, you've put your finger

00:59:31.440 on my biggest beef with my own tribe,

00:59:35.240 which are,

00:59:36.080 and I'm just going to speak honestly now

00:59:37.700 for a second.

00:59:38.480 Doctors are the fucking worst.

00:59:40.860 They are the worst.

00:59:42.260 They are the most captured,

00:59:44.040 hive mind, inertia driven,

00:59:45.900 fear driven creatures.

00:59:46.920 And it's not their fault.

00:59:48.320 It's because their education

00:59:49.600 instills in them from day one,

00:59:51.680 kiss the ring of the authority figure,

00:59:53.280 the attending physician,

00:59:54.580 the consulting physician.

00:59:55.500 So one day in return,

00:59:57.000 you'll be the ring that is kissed.

00:59:59.220 Don't rock the boat

01:00:00.100 because you could kill someone.

01:00:01.380 And if you open your mouth,

01:00:02.480 you're going to get hammered down

01:00:03.720 by the establishment.

01:00:04.860 That is how we're trained.

01:00:06.320 The public is right to question us.

01:00:08.840 They are right to push back.

01:00:10.880 But the problem is

01:00:12.080 they're in their own hive mind

01:00:13.380 because they've been conditioned

01:00:14.360 to believe that there's a pill

01:00:15.620 or a magic bullet for everything.

01:00:17.060 So they feed the pharma monster

01:00:18.780 and they feed into physicians

01:00:21.200 who then are like,

01:00:21.820 well, this patient's going to rip me

01:00:22.940 a new one on, you know,

01:00:23.880 whatever doctor rating platform

01:00:25.860 if I don't give them the opioid

01:00:27.480 or I don't give them the antibiotic

01:00:28.940 for their virus,

01:00:29.780 that's not going to help.

01:00:30.880 And it becomes this vicious thing.

01:00:33.000 So doctors on Twitter are the worst.

01:00:35.440 They're captured by this blue church

01:00:38.160 thesis idea

01:00:39.960 that everybody outside of that is stupid.

01:00:43.240 They're flat earthers

01:00:44.180 and they're dumb

01:00:45.080 and they need to be,

01:00:46.040 they need to shut up

01:00:46.920 or be forced to do

01:00:47.740 what they're going to do.

01:00:48.800 How's that going to work?

01:00:49.840 Because actually,

01:00:50.500 when you talk to people

01:00:51.560 on the antithesis side,

01:00:52.740 they're hyper intelligent.

01:00:54.000 They're very curious.

01:00:55.480 Yeah, they're captured

01:00:56.180 in their own way.

01:00:57.080 Absolutely.

01:00:57.660 But we all are.

01:00:58.800 So how do you talk to them?

01:01:00.200 Well, first of all,

01:01:01.020 you have to have a dialogue

01:01:02.160 that's respectful

01:01:03.460 and actually recognize

01:01:04.820 their moral foundation

01:01:06.200 where they're coming from.

01:01:07.100 Like you said,

01:01:07.500 it has to not just be accurate.

01:01:08.880 It has to be acceptable.

01:01:10.600 Why do people distrust

01:01:12.080 pharmaceuticals, say,

01:01:13.660 in the antithesis tribe

01:01:14.860 apart from the obvious?

01:01:15.880 Well, they have a,

01:01:17.000 you know,

01:01:17.120 what Jonathan Haidt,

01:01:18.200 social psychologist,

01:01:19.360 calls a moral foundation,

01:01:20.700 a moral matrix,

01:01:21.680 different taste buds

01:01:22.480 than, say, somebody

01:01:23.500 in the blue church

01:01:24.260 on the left would have.

01:01:25.660 So blue church values

01:01:26.880 fairness versus cheating,

01:01:28.540 care versus harm,

01:01:29.540 those moral palates.

01:01:30.740 Well, then of course

01:01:31.760 they're going to want

01:01:32.320 vaccinated as many people

01:01:33.460 as you can,

01:01:34.580 mask up,

01:01:35.380 stay home,

01:01:36.000 protect the vulnerable.

01:01:37.060 But it turns out

01:01:38.120 antithesis tribe,

01:01:39.240 conservatives in general,

01:01:40.400 libertarians in general,

01:01:41.880 have more of those taste buds

01:01:43.400 spread out further.

01:01:44.440 So liberty versus oppression,

01:01:46.980 authority versus subversion,

01:01:48.820 loyalty versus betrayal,

01:01:50.440 sanctity versus degradation,

01:01:51.940 which is a very powerful one.

01:01:54.120 Like, are you really going

01:01:55.120 to tell me what to put

01:01:55.940 in my body, right?

01:01:57.800 Whereas it's interesting

01:01:59.000 on the blue church side,

01:02:02.040 the antithesis side,

01:02:03.880 sanctity versus degradation

01:02:05.000 manifests as

01:02:06.240 these filthy unvaccinateds

01:02:08.320 are going to come

01:02:08.860 and make my family sick

01:02:10.400 with their, you know, delta.

01:02:12.140 So you can see how good,

01:02:14.240 people trying to be morally good

01:02:15.420 based on what they have,

01:02:16.520 what their condition,

01:02:17.360 genetic, educated, et cetera,

01:02:19.400 can see the world

01:02:20.180 entirely differently.

01:02:21.220 So what scientists need to do

01:02:23.180 is recognize that,

01:02:24.880 go, these are bubbles.

01:02:25.860 Okay, how do we form,

01:02:27.140 if this is the left hemisphere

01:02:28.240 and this is the right hemisphere

01:02:29.760 and they're each hive minds

01:02:30.980 of their own,

01:02:31.680 if you cut the connection

01:02:33.160 between those hemispheres,

01:02:34.460 as Ian McGilchrist,

01:02:36.040 a researcher, has said,

01:02:37.420 these behave as separate.

01:02:38.840 In a human,

01:02:39.520 we have two separate individuals

01:02:40.700 vying for each other,

01:02:41.740 left side, right side.

01:02:43.160 They do different things.

01:02:44.180 They think differently.

01:02:44.920 They see the world differently.

01:02:45.780 Well, what normally prevents that

01:02:48.600 is this corpus callosum,

01:02:50.920 these neural fibers

01:02:51.800 that connect the hemispheres.

01:02:53.760 Scientists, educators, communicators

01:02:55.720 should be those fibers.

01:02:57.920 They should be this alt-middle,

01:03:00.400 as I call it, hive mind

01:03:02.060 that says yes and to all these sides

01:03:04.360 and how can we speak in a way

01:03:05.640 that's respectful

01:03:06.300 and understands the moral matrix

01:03:08.000 underlying it and speaks to it.

01:03:09.500 But we don't do that.

01:03:10.600 We hive mind off.

01:03:12.040 We're all guilty of it.

01:03:12.920 I'm guilty of it.

01:03:13.640 Especially early COVID,

01:03:14.780 I was like, you know,

01:03:15.300 I think I reviewed a video,

01:03:16.660 Plandemic,

01:03:17.700 and my review was basically,

01:03:19.980 this is fucking stupid.

01:03:21.460 Anyone who believes this is an idiot.

01:03:23.520 I can't even believe I'm spending my time.

01:03:25.520 Like spit was coming out of my mouth.

01:03:26.860 I'm pounding the table.

01:03:28.120 It gets 3 million views on YouTube.

01:03:31.220 90% of the comments

01:03:32.420 are antithesis people

01:03:33.580 that are like,

01:03:34.220 you're a tool,

01:03:35.280 you bald clown,

01:03:36.300 you look like,

01:03:36.960 somebody said,

01:03:37.820 he looks like Dwayne the Rock Johnson

01:03:40.700 with end-stage AIDS.

01:03:42.340 And I was like,

01:03:43.260 you know,

01:03:43.500 that's pretty good.

01:03:45.500 That is a good take there.

01:03:48.060 So it doesn't work.

01:03:49.380 Yeah.

01:03:49.720 No, it doesn't work.

01:03:50.680 And I think I've seen the evolution

01:03:52.700 in your work.

01:03:54.120 And I think that's why

01:03:55.200 we really wanted to have you on the show

01:03:56.620 because I think it's very effective.

01:03:58.140 I know we're probably running slightly over.

01:04:00.040 Are you okay to do a few more questions?

01:04:02.180 I'm down to clown

01:04:03.440 for however long you need me.

01:04:04.640 Amazing, man.

01:04:05.260 I really appreciate that.

01:04:06.480 So you mentioned there

01:04:07.960 the sort of thesis,

01:04:09.800 blue church tribe.

01:04:11.040 And one of the arguments from them

01:04:12.500 that I was curious to get your take on

01:04:14.040 is the idea that

01:04:15.720 you must get vaccinated

01:04:17.180 not because

01:04:18.260 like it's herd immunity or whatever,

01:04:20.320 but because you are

01:04:21.300 the petri dish

01:04:22.380 for new variants

01:04:23.320 to mutate in.

01:04:24.600 Is that true?

01:04:26.220 Yeah, that's elite bullshit.

01:04:28.540 And the reason is

01:04:29.380 that the petri dish

01:04:30.520 for new variants to emerge

01:04:32.180 is the developing world

01:04:33.800 where we've not done the courtesy

01:04:35.580 of giving them a first dose

01:04:37.060 when we're talking about

01:04:38.060 third and fourth doses

01:04:39.300 in rich countries.

01:04:40.480 It's insanity.

01:04:41.940 If you want to prevent variants,

01:04:43.780 you prevent viral replication.

01:04:45.280 And the thing is

01:04:45.820 in the end,

01:04:47.080 the variants

01:04:47.560 may be emerging in animals.

01:04:49.540 They may be emerging

01:04:50.360 in immunocompromised people

01:04:51.920 who are actually

01:04:53.440 going to replicate virus

01:04:55.220 whether they're vaccinated or not.

01:04:57.260 And now you could make the argument

01:04:58.740 that if you vaccinate

01:04:59.420 the whole population,

01:05:00.220 there's less circulating virus,

01:05:01.320 less likely they're going

01:05:02.020 to get infected.

01:05:02.600 That's all true,

01:05:03.260 but it requires

01:05:04.000 a lot of abstraction

01:05:05.820 to get to that point.

01:05:06.920 So I think that is

01:05:07.720 a very tribal statement.

01:05:09.440 It's a badge of identity

01:05:11.080 in that group

01:05:12.200 and it doesn't serve

01:05:13.340 very much good

01:05:14.440 at all in the world.

01:05:15.860 Okay.

01:05:16.560 And then,

01:05:17.440 look,

01:05:17.980 one of the theories

01:05:19.820 about Omicron,

01:05:20.600 which we're going to get to

01:05:21.360 in a second,

01:05:22.460 and obviously

01:05:23.020 the OG COVID as well,

01:05:25.620 is,

01:05:26.180 so first of all,

01:05:27.440 the lab leak hypothesis

01:05:28.440 about the original virus

01:05:29.820 coming from a lab

01:05:30.800 in Wuhan.

01:05:31.900 And also,

01:05:32.600 there are people

01:05:32.940 like Yuri Dagan.

01:05:33.780 I don't know

01:05:34.100 if you're familiar with him.

01:05:35.100 I know Yuri.

01:05:36.060 You know Yuri.

01:05:36.800 So I've been talking

01:05:37.440 to Yuri quite a bit recently.

01:05:39.600 And one of the things

01:05:40.680 he's talking about

01:05:41.560 is Omicron,

01:05:42.940 in his opinion,

01:05:44.740 there's some,

01:05:45.620 I don't get it.

01:05:46.660 And I think we talked

01:05:47.380 about it in the episode

01:05:48.160 that you watched of ours.

01:05:49.260 Yeah.

01:05:49.880 The idea is

01:05:50.740 it came through mice

01:05:51.920 and that points

01:05:52.760 to a lab in Durban

01:05:53.940 in South Africa

01:05:54.780 and blah, blah, blah.

01:05:55.600 So where are you

01:05:56.480 on those two things?

01:05:57.880 So I'm not an expert in that.

01:05:59.220 I can say this,

01:05:59.980 that the theories on that

01:06:01.260 are Yuri's theory.

01:06:03.080 There's the theory

01:06:03.720 that it actually emerged

01:06:05.000 in an animal

01:06:06.300 because there are

01:06:06.860 so many mutations

01:06:07.560 and it's so divergent

01:06:08.660 from the Delta strain

01:06:10.440 that it may have emerged

01:06:12.360 in an animal.

01:06:13.040 The other theory

01:06:13.500 is that it emerged

01:06:14.060 much earlier

01:06:14.760 and was circulating

01:06:15.560 somewhere quietly.

01:06:16.740 But that's hard to believe

01:06:17.760 because it's so contagious.

01:06:19.360 It would have taken over

01:06:20.060 quite rapidly.

01:06:22.120 And the third one

01:06:23.000 is that it emerged

01:06:23.720 in a immunocompromised host

01:06:25.780 where you can get infected

01:06:27.260 and the virus

01:06:27.700 can just keep replicating,

01:06:28.680 but it doesn't actually

01:06:29.260 cause a lot of disease

01:06:30.220 because the disease

01:06:31.280 is caused

01:06:31.780 by the immune system's reaction.

01:06:34.600 And so they're just

01:06:35.300 viral factories

01:06:36.500 and it happened there.

01:06:37.860 Even that one's a tough one, right?

01:06:39.360 It's hard to know.

01:06:40.020 So I don't know

01:06:40.700 if Yuri's right or wrong.

01:06:41.620 If Yuri's right,

01:06:42.600 again, that's just more concern

01:06:44.760 about gain-of-function research.

01:06:46.920 Like, why are we doing this?

01:06:48.640 Now, it's interesting.

01:06:50.180 Now I'm gonna play

01:06:50.620 devil's advocate for myself

01:06:51.760 because I'm in the

01:06:52.840 gain-of-function.

01:06:53.820 Are you high?

01:06:54.460 Like, why would you do that?

01:06:55.900 The arguments

01:06:56.540 for gain-of-function research

01:06:57.980 are that,

01:06:58.960 first of all,

01:06:59.500 the public doesn't understand

01:07:00.380 the spectrum of gain-of-function.

01:07:01.940 There are aspects

01:07:02.520 of gain-of-function

01:07:03.100 where you do minor things

01:07:04.620 to things in order

01:07:05.440 to create

01:07:07.740 studyable environments

01:07:08.900 and you actually

01:07:09.480 can't do it any other way.

01:07:11.420 Well, that's rare.

01:07:12.680 And even in those cases,

01:07:13.900 you'd need

01:07:14.420 egregious controls

01:07:16.060 on escape.

01:07:16.840 And I honestly

01:07:17.540 just don't think

01:07:18.040 it's worth it

01:07:18.700 because if this were

01:07:20.080 a lab leak, right?

01:07:22.320 I mean, come on.

01:07:23.640 We've destroyed

01:07:24.460 our social fabric.

01:07:26.020 I'm not gonna say

01:07:26.600 we destroyed the world

01:07:27.360 because look, dude,

01:07:27.980 it's an infection fatality rate

01:07:29.260 of 0.2 to 0.3.

01:07:30.200 A whole bunch of people died

01:07:31.180 but we did not destroy

01:07:32.300 the world.

01:07:32.680 This isn't an asteroid

01:07:33.440 but we destroyed

01:07:34.500 our cohesion.

01:07:35.560 We've further tribalized

01:07:36.820 and we've cost

01:07:37.880 I don't know how many

01:07:39.000 billions of dollars

01:07:39.720 in untold suffering.

01:07:41.220 So, you know,

01:07:42.320 something needs to be

01:07:42.920 held accountable for that.

01:07:43.740 We can't have it repeat.

01:07:45.080 But yeah,

01:07:45.380 I don't know the answer.

01:07:47.100 And I was gonna move

01:07:48.180 on to Omicron.

01:07:49.160 Yeah.

01:07:49.820 So the question

01:07:52.340 that I wanted to ask

01:07:53.200 particularly with Omicron

01:07:54.200 is there's a lot

01:07:55.520 of people saying

01:07:56.460 Omicron signals

01:07:58.320 the end of the pandemic.

01:07:59.860 Is that something

01:08:00.540 that you agree with?

01:08:02.460 So every time I've said

01:08:04.280 X signals the end

01:08:05.660 of the pandemic,

01:08:06.240 I've been wrong.

01:08:08.120 It does make me start

01:08:09.480 to want to be part

01:08:10.380 of the antithesis tribe

01:08:11.520 and feel like I'm actually

01:08:12.520 being picked on by Fauci.

01:08:13.940 Like every time

01:08:14.780 I say something,

01:08:15.600 I feel like Fauci

01:08:16.440 or somebody is watching

01:08:17.560 and they're like,

01:08:18.600 okay, release the Omicron,

01:08:20.640 you know,

01:08:20.860 or release the Delta

01:08:21.920 because it just,

01:08:23.060 it's that uncanny.

01:08:24.200 So this is my take

01:08:25.520 on Omicron.

01:08:26.180 I've done a couple

01:08:26.620 videos on this.

01:08:28.240 Here's the possibility

01:08:29.440 and I think it's,

01:08:30.460 it's more likely than not,

01:08:32.260 but that doesn't mean

01:08:32.840 it's not wrong.

01:08:34.000 So Omicron is highly infectious,

01:08:36.240 very contagious,

01:08:37.140 but it causes

01:08:37.900 less severe disease

01:08:38.860 in most people

01:08:39.580 unless you're vulnerable.

01:08:41.040 And still,

01:08:41.740 and as you guys recognize,

01:08:42.980 right,

01:08:43.760 less severe disease

01:08:44.860 simply means

01:08:45.700 it's more like flu.

01:08:47.460 You don't get hospitalized,

01:08:48.780 but it still fucking sucks.

01:08:50.600 Like you guys went,

01:08:51.880 especially it sounds like

01:08:53.160 Francis went through hell

01:08:54.460 with that.

01:08:55.500 And so what it does then

01:08:57.880 is since it has

01:08:58.760 a reproductive number,

01:08:59.980 in other words,

01:09:00.480 each person who's infected

01:09:01.740 infects X number of people,

01:09:03.480 that's your R naught,

01:09:04.380 your reproductive number,

01:09:05.560 that's high.

01:09:06.400 It's like close to 10

01:09:07.320 or something.

01:09:07.840 That's almost

01:09:08.380 in measles territory.

01:09:09.940 It means that

01:09:10.660 your ability

01:09:12.580 to mitigate this virus,

01:09:14.120 to actually prevent it

01:09:15.020 from spreading

01:09:15.460 with your standard approach

01:09:16.720 of cloth diaper

01:09:17.940 on your face

01:09:18.660 and stay home

01:09:20.300 for a couple days

01:09:20.920 is not gonna work.

01:09:22.160 Everybody's gonna get it

01:09:23.100 and it's gonna be

01:09:23.660 very, very fast.

01:09:25.040 And because it's so fast,

01:09:26.160 it's gonna tear through

01:09:26.980 vulnerables very quickly

01:09:28.400 and then it's probably

01:09:29.640 gonna come down really fast.

01:09:31.060 And what you're gonna be left with

01:09:32.140 is a population

01:09:32.960 that has mixed immunity,

01:09:35.000 vaccine immunity,

01:09:36.140 natural immunity,

01:09:36.880 previously from Delta

01:09:37.820 and Wuhan strain

01:09:38.860 and from Omicron,

01:09:40.780 people who've been boosted

01:09:41.760 by getting breakthrough infections

01:09:43.020 from either natural infection

01:09:44.720 like you guys had

01:09:45.500 or vaccine-induced immunity

01:09:48.420 now with Omicron

01:09:49.580 and now you have

01:09:50.300 a population

01:09:51.140 that is in much better shape

01:09:53.440 for the next wave

01:09:54.880 of whatever happens,

01:09:55.840 whether it's a resurgence

01:09:56.860 of Omicron

01:09:57.660 or a different variant.

01:09:59.120 And the truth is

01:10:00.320 that's what probably happens

01:10:02.900 when we get a new cold virus

01:10:04.620 because over time,

01:10:06.400 when it's first introduced,

01:10:08.020 everybody dies.

01:10:09.000 I mean, everybody,

01:10:09.620 meaning there's a population

01:10:10.340 that just gets really sick.

01:10:11.800 Other people don't get that sick

01:10:12.940 and then you develop immunity

01:10:13.900 and then the whole population

01:10:15.760 moves forward

01:10:16.600 so that every season

01:10:17.700 people get reinfected

01:10:18.820 because this is an important thing.

01:10:20.520 People don't really

01:10:21.760 understand this point.

01:10:24.020 This particular virus

01:10:25.740 is a respiratory virus

01:10:27.080 that replicates very rapidly.

01:10:29.100 We'll pick on Omicron

01:10:30.220 in particular

01:10:30.760 in the upper airways.

01:10:34.180 As part of its disease process,

01:10:36.660 it does not need

01:10:38.140 to enter the bloodstream

01:10:39.340 and cause what they call viremia,

01:10:41.660 meaning virus in the blood.

01:10:42.860 It doesn't need to do that.

01:10:44.440 It can do that later

01:10:45.240 in the disease,

01:10:46.100 but really it causes

01:10:47.040 this massive immune response.

01:10:48.360 That's how it causes

01:10:48.800 severe disease.

01:10:49.500 And then it can get

01:10:50.240 into the blood later

01:10:51.060 and cause worse disease.

01:10:53.100 Well, what do vaccines

01:10:54.920 and even to some degree

01:10:56.380 natural immunity do?

01:10:57.820 They generate antibodies

01:11:00.020 that live mostly in the blood.

01:11:02.280 Some of them live

01:11:03.020 in the mucosal membranes,

01:11:04.180 but mostly in the blood.

01:11:05.560 So you can get infected.

01:11:07.580 That's why this early talk

01:11:08.960 of like,

01:11:09.320 hey, look at this 90%.

01:11:10.580 They're not even getting infected.

01:11:11.760 Well, that was an early strain

01:11:12.640 that replicates very slowly.

01:11:14.560 But with Omicron,

01:11:15.600 it's like, dude,

01:11:16.440 you're already infected

01:11:17.320 before the virus

01:11:18.640 has even seen an antibody.

01:11:20.400 But what do the antibodies do?

01:11:21.920 They get spun up really quickly

01:11:23.200 because body recognizes virus,

01:11:24.740 goes, okay,

01:11:25.520 activate the memory B cells,

01:11:27.700 you know,

01:11:27.880 like release the hounds.

01:11:29.260 The next thing you know,

01:11:30.620 you've got protection

01:11:31.620 in the blood

01:11:32.160 against severe disease,

01:11:33.820 meaning hospitalizable disease

01:11:35.260 in most people.

01:11:36.360 So within the variation

01:11:37.960 of the population,

01:11:38.560 some people just don't

01:11:39.300 mount that immune response

01:11:40.260 no matter what you do.

01:11:41.760 And that's why I think

01:11:42.840 Omicron is the great equalizer.

01:11:44.900 Everybody's been vaccinated.

01:11:45.900 Everybody hasn't been vaccinated.

01:11:46.900 Most of them

01:11:47.240 are just going to get infected.

01:11:48.380 It's going to take away

01:11:49.120 the stigma of COVID.

01:11:50.220 It's going to generate

01:11:50.980 a lot of immunity

01:11:51.720 and it's going to push us

01:11:52.720 towards a phase

01:11:53.380 where this is more like a cold.

01:11:55.460 I've argued

01:11:56.140 that we're already in the phase

01:11:57.580 where every single

01:11:59.580 societal mandate

01:12:01.020 and restriction

01:12:01.700 should be removed.

01:12:02.780 There should be

01:12:03.180 no vaccine passports.

01:12:04.340 There should be no mandates.

01:12:05.320 There should be

01:12:05.680 no mask mandates.

01:12:06.820 Every single individual

01:12:08.200 can make a decision now

01:12:09.300 and say,

01:12:09.840 okay,

01:12:10.060 if I want to protect myself

01:12:11.460 against Omicron,

01:12:12.140 I have to wear an N95 mask.

01:12:13.660 I will do that.

01:12:14.440 I will get vaccinated

01:12:15.300 and boosted.

01:12:16.060 Fine.

01:12:16.800 Or I don't want to do that.

01:12:18.300 And you not doing that

01:12:19.880 is not really going to move

01:12:21.620 the curve

01:12:22.220 on other people

01:12:23.600 except maybe you'll

01:12:24.620 fill up a hospital

01:12:25.440 because this is true.

01:12:27.600 90% of people

01:12:28.780 that are dying in hospital

01:12:29.980 are still unvaccinated

01:12:31.120 in the United States.

01:12:32.140 It's a big number, right?

01:12:33.440 Now that'll shift

01:12:34.040 as more people get vaccinated

01:12:35.180 because then the breakthroughs

01:12:36.280 will be the only people dying.

01:12:38.180 Zubin, may I interrupt

01:12:39.140 very briefly

01:12:39.900 and please correct me

01:12:41.300 if I'm wrong.

01:12:41.800 I think that

01:12:43.740 obviously that is true

01:12:45.200 statistically speaking

01:12:46.480 but I think what

01:12:47.260 that misrepresents

01:12:48.340 is the age groups

01:12:50.220 because people

01:12:51.380 throw that stat out

01:12:52.880 to make it sound

01:12:54.100 like unvaccinated people

01:12:55.600 are at huge risk.

01:12:56.720 What we're actually

01:12:57.540 talking about

01:12:58.240 is unvaccinated people

01:12:59.760 who are in their 60s

01:13:00.980 and 70s

01:13:01.700 who maybe have

01:13:02.320 a few comorbidities,

01:13:03.840 they are really

01:13:04.640 in the shit

01:13:05.260 but if you're

01:13:06.540 a 20 year old

01:13:07.820 and you're unvaccinated

01:13:08.740 you're not going to be

01:13:09.580 dying in an ICU

01:13:10.560 statistically speaking.

01:13:11.960 Would that be fair to say

01:13:12.760 with Omicron?

01:13:13.900 I think it's absolutely

01:13:14.840 fair to say.

01:13:15.600 It's even more fair to say

01:13:16.740 with Omicron

01:13:17.420 because Omicron

01:13:18.220 is so generally

01:13:19.060 milder

01:13:20.300 and again

01:13:20.760 I use that word mild.

01:13:21.780 People get very butt hurt

01:13:22.760 when I use that word

01:13:23.680 because they've had it

01:13:24.840 and they're like

01:13:25.200 no this sucks

01:13:25.860 or they're in a hospital

01:13:26.640 and they see someone

01:13:27.200 sick with it.

01:13:27.900 It's true.

01:13:28.360 Now the one caveat to that

01:13:29.580 is a lot of young people,

01:13:31.220 remember I talked about

01:13:31.840 that skinny fat thing

01:13:33.060 earlier,

01:13:34.120 like why is it

01:13:34.720 that South Americans,

01:13:35.980 a lot of young people

01:13:37.140 don't realize

01:13:37.720 how fucked up

01:13:38.320 they are nutritionally

01:13:39.280 and they are actually

01:13:41.080 more at risk

01:13:41.820 than they think.

01:13:43.140 That's why

01:13:43.660 I generally advocate

01:13:44.840 young people get vaccinated

01:13:45.880 but if they don't want to

01:13:46.800 that's cool too.

01:13:48.340 But yes,

01:13:49.100 you're right,

01:13:49.560 it is.

01:13:50.320 Can we really,

01:13:51.880 let's really say this clearly

01:13:53.560 for the people in the back.

01:13:55.120 This is a disease

01:13:56.480 in which the vast majority

01:13:59.120 of people

01:13:59.660 who fall ill and die

01:14:01.520 or get very bad complications

01:14:03.640 are older than 65

01:14:05.460 or older than 50

01:14:06.700 with multiple comorbidities.

01:14:08.400 This is a fact

01:14:09.400 and I think

01:14:10.340 when we treat this

01:14:11.240 like it's some childhood disease,

01:14:13.060 right,

01:14:13.340 that needs to be stamped out

01:14:14.620 of every single human,

01:14:16.100 we're doing the policy

01:14:17.260 a disservice

01:14:17.700 because now you're wielding

01:14:18.640 a policy hammer

01:14:19.340 that doesn't apply

01:14:20.380 to this particular disease

01:14:22.280 and we've been saying that

01:14:23.120 from like day one.

01:14:24.560 Thank God this doesn't,

01:14:25.980 you know,

01:14:26.300 kill masses of children.

01:14:27.900 It's still,

01:14:28.360 that's not to discount

01:14:29.420 the children who've suffered

01:14:30.300 and have died

01:14:31.000 and the MIS-C

01:14:32.220 and these kind of

01:14:32.980 unusual syndromes.

01:14:34.280 They are real

01:14:34.940 but they're not a reason

01:14:36.240 to shut down all of society.

01:14:37.760 We don't do that for influenza.

01:14:39.200 We don't do that for RSV.

01:14:40.700 Right now,

01:14:41.580 the number one admissions

01:14:43.380 in hospitals

01:14:44.060 according to Paul Offit

01:14:45.180 in the winter right now

01:14:46.540 currently for kids

01:14:48.340 are influenza,

01:14:50.940 metanumovirus,

01:14:52.640 RSV

01:14:53.160 and then COVID

01:14:54.240 in that order.

01:14:55.980 And he was just on

01:14:57.160 This Week in Virology

01:14:58.100 saying this.

01:14:58.660 So if he's wrong,

01:15:00.180 I'm going to blame him.

01:15:01.180 But I think that feels right.

01:15:03.500 Zubin, you touched,

01:15:04.540 if I may,

01:15:05.060 a couple more medical questions.

01:15:06.580 Just you touched

01:15:07.160 on natural immunity,

01:15:08.060 something we haven't

01:15:08.740 got round to,

01:15:10.220 but I think it's important

01:15:11.300 to talk about.

01:15:12.480 So as we talked about

01:15:13.980 in our video

01:15:14.580 about getting COVID,

01:15:15.620 I will put my hand up

01:15:16.780 and say I was cavalier.

01:15:18.520 I was like,

01:15:19.920 hey, we got COVID

01:15:20.920 in February 2020.

01:15:22.240 Now we've got natural immunity

01:15:23.860 for the rest of eternity.

01:15:25.860 I'm going to be fine.

01:15:28.200 Didn't quite work out that way.

01:15:30.380 However,

01:15:31.460 there are obviously

01:15:32.860 a lot of studies

01:15:33.660 that show natural immunity

01:15:34.920 is as good as the vaccine,

01:15:36.380 certainly in terms of transmission

01:15:37.620 and stuff like that.

01:15:38.960 So what is the truth

01:15:40.160 about natural immunity,

01:15:41.460 Zubin?

01:15:42.560 First of all,

01:15:43.240 versus the vaccine

01:15:44.100 or with the vaccine

01:15:45.120 or just give us

01:15:45.940 all of that.

01:15:47.280 Sure, sure.

01:15:47.720 Yeah, the quick rundown on that.

01:15:48.840 Now I'm going to put a point

01:15:50.120 on what you said.

01:15:51.200 You said you were cavalier

01:15:52.300 about the thing

01:15:53.460 and thinking so on and so forth.

01:15:54.640 I would have been too.

01:15:55.400 If I were molecule

01:15:56.360 for molecule you,

01:15:57.220 I would have been like,

01:15:57.760 and you know what?

01:15:59.000 You were right.

01:15:59.480 You didn't get severe disease.

01:16:00.860 You didn't end up hospitalized.

01:16:02.680 Francis at least

01:16:03.260 had to go to A&E

01:16:04.620 and get evaluated

01:16:05.440 and all that.

01:16:06.340 And they lied to him

01:16:07.160 and told him

01:16:07.500 that he didn't have a blood clot

01:16:08.360 and at any moment

01:16:09.080 he's going to drop dead.

01:16:09.900 I'm just saying.

01:16:11.660 They should have just told him

01:16:12.980 to man up.

01:16:13.560 That's what I would have done.

01:16:15.240 That's what I tell most

01:16:16.180 of my,

01:16:16.820 anyone who says

01:16:17.620 they have long COVID,

01:16:18.480 I'm like, walk it off.

01:16:19.440 And they're like,

01:16:19.800 when I walk,

01:16:20.420 I get really tired.

01:16:21.160 We can also address that.

01:16:23.280 But yeah,

01:16:25.680 the question of natural immunity

01:16:26.820 versus vaccine.

01:16:27.580 So here's the thing.

01:16:28.340 I think based on the data we have

01:16:30.060 and it's a mixed data set

01:16:31.100 and it depends on who you believe.

01:16:32.300 CDC's data set is garbage

01:16:33.540 and that's what they're using

01:16:34.940 to say everybody should vax up.

01:16:36.360 And I think that's atrocious.

01:16:38.400 As Marty McCary said on my show,

01:16:40.240 their trials would not pass

01:16:42.080 a seventh grade science projects muster.

01:16:44.720 And yet you have these big data sets

01:16:46.240 out of Israel and other places.

01:16:47.520 There's no good reason to believe

01:16:49.400 that natural immunity

01:16:50.220 shouldn't be very robust

01:16:51.540 except to say it might be variable.

01:16:53.720 If you had an asymptomatic case

01:16:55.460 or a minimally symptomatic case

01:16:56.900 with not a lot of viral load,

01:16:58.260 you might've generated

01:16:59.100 less of a response.

01:17:00.240 The nice advantage of the vaccines

01:17:01.680 is that they're very prescribed

01:17:03.620 in terms of what kind of response

01:17:05.040 you get because it's a fixed dose

01:17:06.620 of what you're getting.

01:17:07.540 And you're getting a booster

01:17:08.580 that then allows even more

01:17:10.640 consolidation of immune response,

01:17:12.460 B-cell heterogeneity

01:17:14.180 that allows even broader coverage

01:17:15.980 against variants that might emerge

01:17:17.840 and things like that.

01:17:19.280 But I think natural immunity

01:17:20.440 is very powerful.

01:17:21.160 Now, you had it back

01:17:22.040 in like the Wuhan days,

01:17:23.900 like when we were calling it

01:17:24.980 the China virus and all that.

01:17:26.660 Like those good old days, right?

01:17:28.380 When we could be xenophobic

01:17:29.420 with our names of the virus

01:17:30.460 and no one would yell at us.

01:17:32.960 The issue there is

01:17:36.340 your neutralizing antibodies

01:17:37.800 have waned over time,

01:17:39.040 which they do even with the vaccine,

01:17:40.520 which means you can get reinfected,

01:17:42.460 which we talked about

01:17:43.180 why you might have that happen.

01:17:44.820 But again,

01:17:45.540 your memory protection

01:17:46.500 against severe disease is robust.

01:17:48.940 So vaccine does a really good job too.

01:17:52.820 It may actually not even

01:17:54.700 require boosters in most people

01:17:58.280 to prevent severe disease, right?

01:17:59.780 Although that may change over time,

01:18:01.380 especially with Pfizer.

01:18:02.660 Pfizer's was a little bit

01:18:04.120 and AstraZeneca

01:18:05.560 and Johnson & Johnson as well.

01:18:06.880 Johnson & Johnson

01:18:07.380 really should have been

01:18:08.140 a two dose vaccine,

01:18:09.480 but they tried it as a one dose.

01:18:11.120 And now most people are saying

01:18:12.260 you really need to get

01:18:12.980 that second dose

01:18:13.580 or a dose of mRNA

01:18:14.900 if you want the level of protection

01:18:16.400 that you would expect

01:18:18.120 from a vaccine.

01:18:20.900 Pfizer is a little bit

01:18:22.100 less effective than Moderna.

01:18:24.220 It's quite clear

01:18:24.960 because the dose is less

01:18:26.400 and it's spaced closer together,

01:18:28.160 three weeks.

01:18:28.820 The longer you space it,

01:18:30.220 up to probably 12 weeks,

01:18:31.700 the more robust immune response you get.

01:18:33.720 And this is known

01:18:34.320 with other vaccines.

01:18:35.420 So probably they spaced it that close

01:18:37.420 because they were trying

01:18:38.020 to get through the trial

01:18:38.880 in a way that actually showed something

01:18:40.420 and it was a pandemic

01:18:41.340 and you didn't want

01:18:42.360 to leave people vulnerable

01:18:43.380 for the period

01:18:44.080 after they got the first dose

01:18:45.400 for too long.

01:18:46.700 So it was kind of,

01:18:47.220 they were trying to figure out

01:18:48.200 the sweet spot,

01:18:48.960 but I think they probably

01:18:49.760 got it a little bit wrong.

01:18:51.280 Now, what's interesting

01:18:51.900 with Moderna,

01:18:52.520 it's a higher dose,

01:18:53.760 so better efficacy

01:18:54.540 against both severe disease

01:18:55.760 and infection,

01:18:56.620 but more myocarditis.

01:18:58.360 So this is what's crazy.

01:19:00.040 People say we're not talking

01:19:01.080 about myocarditis,

01:19:02.000 but boy,

01:19:02.800 the Europeans do not allow,

01:19:04.860 do not recommend

01:19:05.640 in certain countries Moderna

01:19:06.880 for anyone under 30

01:19:08.020 because of the myocarditis risk.

01:19:09.680 We have a safer vaccine,

01:19:10.800 the Pfizer.

01:19:11.700 So this has been really put into policy

01:19:14.980 in places other than the US.

01:19:16.480 It's a little frustrated

01:19:17.280 that it hasn't happened in the US.

01:19:19.500 So I think we should respect

01:19:21.580 natural immunity.

01:19:22.420 Stop shaming people

01:19:23.340 if they say,

01:19:24.320 you know what?

01:19:24.600 I've been infected.

01:19:25.420 Why are you making me get a vaccine?

01:19:26.700 That's crazy.

01:19:28.020 It's counterproductive.

01:19:29.020 It's anti-scientific

01:19:29.940 and it's gonna generate

01:19:31.480 a lot of vaccine resentment,

01:19:33.960 what they call psychological react,

01:19:35.640 where people are like,

01:19:36.840 fuck you,

01:19:37.320 this doesn't even make sense.

01:19:38.320 Why are you telling me what to do?

01:19:39.600 You're blowing your,

01:19:40.840 you know,

01:19:41.440 policy load

01:19:42.460 on something that really

01:19:43.780 is not gonna move the needle.

01:19:45.960 Like,

01:19:46.180 yeah.

01:19:47.460 Very briefly,

01:19:48.480 Zubin,

01:19:48.620 I totally get that.

01:19:50.140 If you were in our position,

01:19:51.980 had COVID twice,

01:19:53.160 just had it for a second time,

01:19:54.580 obviously had it quite badly

01:19:55.720 the second time,

01:19:57.080 should people in our position

01:19:58.540 get vaccinated,

01:19:59.500 in your opinion?

01:20:00.400 And when should they,

01:20:01.480 if at all?

01:20:03.180 Yeah,

01:20:03.360 this is a great question,

01:20:04.440 man,

01:20:04.720 if I were molecule

01:20:05.560 for molecule you,

01:20:06.720 even with my own biases

01:20:07.740 towards vaccine,

01:20:09.020 I would probably wait

01:20:10.240 like 12 weeks

01:20:12.880 because you know

01:20:13.820 you're gonna get

01:20:14.580 high neutralizing antibody levels

01:20:16.460 through that period of time,

01:20:17.900 you know?

01:20:18.500 And at that point,

01:20:19.640 if you decide,

01:20:20.480 listen,

01:20:20.720 I just don't even wanna fuck

01:20:21.900 with COVID again.

01:20:22.740 Like,

01:20:23.420 you know,

01:20:24.040 I'm just gonna take

01:20:24.840 one dose of an mRNA vaccine

01:20:26.580 or a single dose of AstraZeneca

01:20:28.140 or something like that,

01:20:29.620 that's fine.

01:20:30.940 I think that's totally reasonable.

01:20:32.460 If you live with someone

01:20:33.540 who's very high risk

01:20:34.560 and you're trying

01:20:35.320 to protect them,

01:20:36.260 well,

01:20:36.660 it will reduce your chances

01:20:37.840 of getting infected

01:20:38.460 because this is another

01:20:39.160 sort of misunderstanding

01:20:40.120 in the antithesis tribe

01:20:41.800 that vaccine doesn't

01:20:42.700 prevent transmission.

01:20:43.580 It does.

01:20:44.360 And it does so in two ways.

01:20:45.640 It prevents people

01:20:46.280 from getting infected

01:20:46.980 in the first place

01:20:47.560 to some degree

01:20:48.240 and then it narrows the time

01:20:49.920 that you're actually sick

01:20:51.060 and infectious.

01:20:51.960 Now,

01:20:52.580 how much effect

01:20:53.240 that has in the real world?

01:20:54.420 Probably smaller

01:20:55.020 than the blue tribe

01:20:56.060 would have you

01:20:56.540 or the thesis tribe

01:20:57.360 would have you believe.

01:20:58.900 But so that's another reason

01:21:01.120 to get vaccinated

01:21:01.660 even if you've been

01:21:02.500 naturally infected.

01:21:03.860 And is there a way

01:21:04.380 to monitor how immune

01:21:06.000 you are at a certain

01:21:07.660 point in time?

01:21:08.440 Like we just had COVID.

01:21:09.960 Is there a way

01:21:10.840 to monitor how protected

01:21:12.220 we are?

01:21:12.780 Is that possible?

01:21:14.040 It's so shitty

01:21:14.840 because all you're measuring

01:21:16.060 is neutralizing antibodies

01:21:17.360 in commercially available tests

01:21:18.820 and those are not

01:21:19.620 a great proc.

01:21:20.460 They correlate to immunity

01:21:22.260 but they're not really precise.

01:21:24.000 So what does 100 mean

01:21:25.220 versus 500 versus 1,600?

01:21:27.320 Nobody really knows.

01:21:28.680 They'll just say,

01:21:29.440 well,

01:21:29.500 more is better.

01:21:30.480 But what we can't measure

01:21:31.460 is your memory B and T cells

01:21:33.280 and those are not commercial.

01:21:35.100 Those are research tests

01:21:36.120 and they're very complicated

01:21:37.020 to do.

01:21:37.820 So in reality,

01:21:39.160 it's very tough

01:21:39.940 to rely on a blood test

01:21:41.780 to determine immunity.

01:21:44.440 Now,

01:21:44.680 I would say this.

01:21:45.780 If you're low risk

01:21:46.580 for complications,

01:21:47.500 in other words,

01:21:47.880 you're not a 15-year-old boy,

01:21:50.580 I would just err

01:21:53.120 on the side

01:21:53.500 of getting a vaccine

01:21:54.200 if it's even a question

01:21:55.160 for you

01:21:55.620 because I think

01:21:56.720 the risks are that low

01:21:57.740 based on what I've seen

01:21:58.760 in the data set.

01:21:59.320 Now,

01:21:59.500 you may disagree.

01:22:00.360 You may say,

01:22:00.820 no,

01:22:01.200 personally,

01:22:01.720 any risk is too much.

01:22:02.700 If I've already this or that,

01:22:03.800 I'd rather do the antibody test

01:22:05.100 at least to know.

01:22:05.960 That's fine too

01:22:06.580 but that would be my take.

01:22:08.180 Remember,

01:22:08.600 I'm the Hellraiser guy

01:22:09.460 that's just full of vaccine

01:22:10.940 but I'll say this.

01:22:11.920 I did not want to get a booster

01:22:13.420 with Moderna.

01:22:15.140 I actually said publicly,

01:22:16.900 I'm not gonna get this

01:22:17.700 until I feel I really want to

01:22:19.780 and then I'll explain

01:22:20.340 why I did it

01:22:20.880 and I waited

01:22:21.700 until I saw Omicron

01:22:23.080 kind of really tearing through

01:22:24.500 and that's when I made the decision.

01:22:26.680 It was in late December.

01:22:27.680 I said,

01:22:28.000 okay, fine,

01:22:28.320 I'm gonna get this third Moderna

01:22:30.020 which is a half dose

01:22:30.900 and the reason I decided

01:22:32.600 to do it is

01:22:33.120 I didn't even wanna have

01:22:34.800 to get infected,

01:22:36.760 have symptoms

01:22:37.360 and have to quarantine.

01:22:38.400 That was one thing

01:22:39.240 and the second thing is

01:22:40.780 I wanted to be able

01:22:41.460 to publicly report

01:22:42.340 what my symptoms were

01:22:43.700 from that third dose

01:22:44.860 because Moderna,

01:22:45.540 my second dose,

01:22:46.420 knocked me on my ass.

01:22:47.460 I felt like I was dying

01:22:48.440 for a good 30 hours

01:22:50.140 and then I took some Tylenol

01:22:51.440 and I got better

01:22:52.280 but the third dose

01:22:53.720 actually was much milder

01:22:55.120 in terms of side effects for me

01:22:56.480 so that's why I made that decision.

01:23:00.720 And the last question

01:23:01.680 that I'm gonna ask Zubin

01:23:03.220 of the interview is

01:23:04.260 do you,

01:23:05.900 we had Dr. John Wyatt

01:23:07.420 on the show

01:23:08.040 who is a retired pediatrician

01:23:10.480 and he said

01:23:10.960 the worrying thing

01:23:12.200 about COVID

01:23:12.960 is that we don't know

01:23:15.000 the long-term effects

01:23:16.700 of having COVID.

01:23:19.460 Is that something

01:23:20.480 that concerns you

01:23:21.560 and particularly

01:23:22.220 touching on long COVID

01:23:23.560 but also as well

01:23:24.600 because he made the point

01:23:25.780 you said

01:23:26.120 we don't know

01:23:26.740 20 years time

01:23:27.620 you know

01:23:28.360 are we gonna see

01:23:29.340 all these you know

01:23:30.060 weird neurological conditions

01:23:31.620 coming up

01:23:32.320 as a result

01:23:33.440 of this infection?

01:23:34.340 So this is a classic example

01:23:37.880 of uncertainty

01:23:39.500 generating a fear bias

01:23:41.660 right?

01:23:42.680 So it's the same

01:23:43.460 thing happens

01:23:44.180 with a vaccine

01:23:44.780 like we you know

01:23:45.640 well we don't know

01:23:46.240 in 20 years

01:23:46.860 what will happen

01:23:47.460 and it's like

01:23:48.040 well we can look

01:23:48.620 at other vaccines

01:23:49.240 well we can also

01:23:50.080 look at other viruses

01:23:51.220 there are certain viruses

01:23:52.920 like measles

01:23:53.580 for example

01:23:54.120 in rare cases

01:23:55.900 that measles actually

01:23:56.980 causes brain inflammation

01:23:58.460 so you get measles

01:23:59.540 as a kid

01:24:00.140 in your teens

01:24:01.420 you can get

01:24:01.960 this devastating condition

01:24:03.240 that's almost invariably

01:24:04.440 debilitating or fatal

01:24:05.840 this kind of encephalitis

01:24:08.200 and it happens

01:24:08.800 in rare cases

01:24:10.040 there was another

01:24:10.660 compelling reason

01:24:11.360 to do universal

01:24:12.300 mandates for measles

01:24:13.700 vaccines

01:24:14.160 because you're preventing

01:24:15.100 these complications

01:24:16.100 that are fatal

01:24:16.940 in young people

01:24:18.480 that have lots of life

01:24:19.260 to live

01:24:19.540 with COVID

01:24:20.400 we just

01:24:20.820 it is uncertain

01:24:21.920 but we can kind of

01:24:22.820 look at other

01:24:23.240 coronaviruses

01:24:23.900 we can look at

01:24:24.560 previous SARS outbreak

01:24:26.060 and survivors of that

01:24:27.160 and things like that

01:24:27.860 and make some conclusions

01:24:29.060 this idea

01:24:30.860 of long effects

01:24:31.560 for example

01:24:31.960 long COVID

01:24:32.640 it's very interesting

01:24:34.340 because we have no idea

01:24:35.340 what it is

01:24:35.960 because we have no idea

01:24:37.380 what conditions

01:24:37.940 like chronic fatigue syndrome

01:24:39.340 which is also called

01:24:40.640 myalgic encephalomyelitis

01:24:42.200 or like fibromyalgia are

01:24:44.600 these are weird

01:24:46.120 biopsychosocial diseases

01:24:47.960 meaning there's

01:24:48.480 a biological component

01:24:49.560 this previous infection

01:24:50.560 is a trigger

01:24:51.040 there's a psychological component

01:24:52.820 because there's often

01:24:53.560 depression

01:24:54.040 anxiety

01:24:54.680 other things that are manifest

01:24:55.960 and there's a social component

01:24:57.540 hey have you guys

01:24:58.480 heard about this

01:24:59.400 disease

01:25:00.040 go online

01:25:00.800 form a support group

01:25:02.380 exchange symptoms

01:25:03.320 and that is a dynamic

01:25:04.620 with every disease

01:25:05.860 but with these diseases

01:25:07.040 it's much more shifted

01:25:08.200 towards

01:25:08.740 an equity

01:25:10.360 between the three categories

01:25:11.860 so we don't know

01:25:13.080 but I'll say this

01:25:13.760 this is a great chance

01:25:14.980 to study

01:25:15.720 what

01:25:16.620 viruses do

01:25:18.120 in the long term

01:25:19.360 because how much

01:25:20.340 of chronic fatigue syndrome

01:25:21.500 is long flu

01:25:23.260 or long

01:25:24.860 Epstein-Barr virus

01:25:25.840 long mononucleosis

01:25:27.080 we don't know

01:25:28.700 but the symptoms

01:25:30.220 and signs

01:25:30.700 are very

01:25:31.240 very similar

01:25:31.820 this sort of

01:25:32.680 fatigue after exercise

01:25:33.920 the brain fog

01:25:35.220 the general aches

01:25:36.960 depression

01:25:38.840 sleep abnormalities

01:25:40.200 very very similar

01:25:41.100 so I think

01:25:42.280 it's an opportunity

01:25:42.860 to study

01:25:43.320 because we honestly

01:25:44.260 don't know

01:25:44.660 anyone who says

01:25:45.180 they know the answer

01:25:45.740 this is

01:25:46.240 they're making shit up

01:25:47.680 by the way

01:25:48.080 I heard something

01:25:48.880 on I don't know

01:25:49.440 if it was that guy

01:25:50.220 on your show

01:25:50.740 or somebody else

01:25:51.340 on a recent show

01:25:52.420 that was saying

01:25:52.980 it's clear

01:25:54.400 since

01:25:55.340 coronavirus

01:25:56.440 causes smell

01:25:57.740 and taste loss

01:25:58.640 that it is

01:26:00.100 that was true

01:26:00.320 okay

01:26:01.220 so I disagree

01:26:02.260 with him here

01:26:02.840 and I'll tell you why

01:26:03.960 he said

01:26:05.020 that was the reason

01:26:05.600 that it's clear

01:26:06.880 that the virus

01:26:07.320 enters the brain

01:26:08.180 and therefore

01:26:08.800 is going to cause

01:26:09.460 these long term

01:26:10.000 potentially could cause

01:26:10.960 long term brain

01:26:11.620 and he may be right

01:26:12.860 right

01:26:13.060 but not for this reason

01:26:14.980 it turns out

01:26:16.520 more data has shown

01:26:17.400 the reason people

01:26:18.080 lose their sense of smell

01:26:19.320 is that

01:26:20.380 there are these

01:26:21.580 support cells

01:26:22.580 around the olfactory nerve

01:26:24.760 in the nasal passages

01:26:26.380 called sustentacular cells

01:26:28.000 they're like

01:26:28.860 the little

01:26:29.380 caddies

01:26:30.380 for the golf cart

01:26:31.420 you know

01:26:31.740 thing that

01:26:32.160 that are the

01:26:32.700 the main nerve

01:26:33.720 and they provide support

01:26:35.020 to the nerve cells

01:26:35.660 they're the ones

01:26:36.740 that are killed off

01:26:38.040 by coronavirus

01:26:39.140 and that's why

01:26:40.380 they regenerate

01:26:41.260 over time

01:26:41.860 and then provide

01:26:43.140 support again

01:26:43.760 for some people

01:26:44.380 actually smell

01:26:44.980 loss might be permanent

01:26:46.180 but it's not necessarily

01:26:47.660 an invasion

01:26:48.340 into the brain

01:26:49.120 that's happening

01:26:50.000 that doesn't mean

01:26:50.640 that can't happen

01:26:51.340 but that's not a good reason

01:26:52.440 to point at that

01:26:53.120 I think

01:26:53.580 there's a relief

01:26:55.560 we can't blame

01:26:56.260 our stupidity

01:26:56.960 on the COVID

01:26:57.520 Zubin

01:27:00.040 it's been an absolute pleasure

01:27:01.340 I've really enjoyed

01:27:02.280 speaking with you

01:27:02.980 it's great to

01:27:03.800 to get that

01:27:04.540 sort of alt-middle voice

01:27:06.000 on the channel

01:27:07.680 and I really like

01:27:08.840 what you are doing

01:27:09.680 that doesn't mean

01:27:10.740 that you're right

01:27:11.300 about everything

01:27:12.000 in the way

01:27:12.420 that no one is right

01:27:13.340 about everything

01:27:13.940 but I just

01:27:14.460 I really appreciate

01:27:15.360 the approach

01:27:15.880 and I think

01:27:16.420 this thing in particular

01:27:18.240 setting aside

01:27:19.000 the medical stuff

01:27:19.820 of trying to fight

01:27:21.640 the tribalism

01:27:23.100 that is just

01:27:23.680 so incredibly hard

01:27:25.320 to avoid

01:27:25.860 in the modern world

01:27:26.780 we try to do that

01:27:28.520 we've always tried

01:27:29.260 to do that

01:27:29.660 it's bloody difficult

01:27:30.700 it's difficult

01:27:32.380 for all sorts

01:27:33.060 of reasons

01:27:33.600 but we really try

01:27:35.480 and I see that

01:27:36.640 you're trying

01:27:37.160 to do the same

01:27:37.780 and I really admire

01:27:38.720 and appreciate that

01:27:39.580 so with that

01:27:40.760 go for it

01:27:41.860 I love it

01:27:43.520 I love everything

01:27:44.360 you guys are doing

01:27:44.940 you are the most

01:27:46.100 alt-middle thing

01:27:46.840 I've seen

01:27:47.320 on the interwebs

01:27:48.200 David Fuller

01:27:49.060 Rebel Wisdom

01:27:49.700 very similar

01:27:50.180 you guys are just

01:27:50.720 wonderful

01:27:51.220 so thanks so much

01:27:52.100 for the honor

01:27:53.260 and pleasure

01:27:53.660 of getting to talk

01:27:54.260 with you guys

01:27:54.760 it's been great

01:27:55.880 so we've got

01:27:56.600 a few questions

01:27:57.200 for our locals

01:27:57.880 which you're on as well

01:27:59.160 but before we do that

01:28:00.820 we've got

01:28:01.340 so we'll do that

01:28:02.040 separately after the interview

01:28:02.980 but before we ask

01:28:03.920 those questions

01:28:04.500 from our audience

01:28:05.260 the last question

01:28:06.520 we always ask

01:28:07.260 on the show

01:28:07.700 is what is the one thing

01:28:08.960 that we're not talking about

01:28:10.520 that we really shouldn't be

01:28:11.520 we need to really talk

01:28:13.680 about the fact that

01:28:14.580 social media

01:28:15.980 is a new invention

01:28:17.060 that has created

01:28:18.920 the ability

01:28:19.500 to create these hive minds

01:28:20.740 in a way that's so robust

01:28:22.020 we have no idea

01:28:22.760 what's even happening

01:28:23.600 so we are instantiating

01:28:25.180 these collective

01:28:25.880 consciousnesses

01:28:27.000 that control us

01:28:28.480 we control them

01:28:29.720 to a small degree

01:28:30.440 but not as much

01:28:31.860 as they control us

01:28:32.680 because it's the masses

01:28:33.740 instantiating this

01:28:34.940 through like

01:28:35.860 share

01:28:36.160 comment

01:28:36.580 and it's pushing back

01:28:37.620 down on us

01:28:38.100 until we recognize

01:28:39.480 this is happening

01:28:40.280 and all I'll say is this

01:28:41.680 I went on a six day

01:28:42.580 silent meditation

01:28:43.400 retreat

01:28:43.860 unplugged from my phone

01:28:45.400 entirely

01:28:45.840 I was an entirely

01:28:46.840 different human being

01:28:49.100 when I came back

01:28:50.400 and I think

01:28:51.320 a lot of that

01:28:51.960 was meditation

01:28:52.500 but a lot of that

01:28:53.180 was not being on a device

01:28:54.760 off Twitter

01:28:55.360 off social media

01:28:56.020 all that

01:28:56.500 and I really encourage

01:28:58.240 people to try that

01:28:59.160 and to then have

01:28:59.880 the insight

01:29:00.460 that I had

01:29:01.220 which was

01:29:01.540 oh my god

01:29:02.280 we're being played

01:29:03.420 by these massive

01:29:04.960 hyper-conscious algorithms

01:29:06.940 obviously not YouTube

01:29:08.620 we really like YouTube

01:29:09.740 keep promoting our stuff

01:29:12.020 absolutely

01:29:13.280 that recommended feed

01:29:14.820 that's not a neuronal network

01:29:16.300 at all

01:29:16.800 just keep recommending

01:29:18.300 our stuff

01:29:18.780 please Susan

01:29:19.740 don't ban us

01:29:20.500 yeah

01:29:20.840 all right

01:29:21.620 Zubin

01:29:22.400 it's been genuine

01:29:23.240 an absolute pleasure

01:29:23.840 where can people

01:29:24.680 find you online

01:29:25.620 tell everybody

01:29:26.320 where to go

01:29:27.000 to check out your work

01:29:28.400 so you just search

01:29:29.900 Z-D-O-G-G-M-D

01:29:31.700 two G's

01:29:32.460 because one is necessary

01:29:33.420 but not sufficient

01:29:34.280 to be a gangster

01:29:35.880 on any platform

01:29:37.020 so YouTube

01:29:37.900 Facebook

01:29:38.520 I have ZDogMD.com

01:29:40.180 and then if you want

01:29:41.140 to join our tribe

01:29:42.040 on Locals

01:29:42.780 we're there as well

01:29:44.040 it's an alt-middle tribe

01:29:45.300 really wonderful

01:29:46.000 and you can join

01:29:47.960 any of our supporter tribes

01:29:48.960 ZDogMD.com

01:29:49.840 forward slash supporters

01:29:51.040 Zubin

01:29:52.680 it's been a pleasure

01:29:53.600 thank you very much

01:29:55.060 thank you guys

01:29:56.180 and thank you very much

01:29:58.320 for watching guys

01:29:59.100 if you've enjoyed

01:29:59.980 this episode

01:30:00.700 remember they always

01:30:02.020 go out on Wednesday

01:30:03.660 and Sunday

01:30:04.600 7pm UK time

01:30:05.920 they go out at that time

01:30:06.900 no matter whether

01:30:07.540 you enjoyed this episode

01:30:08.660 or not

01:30:09.080 I promise you

01:30:09.800 2pm Eastern Standard

01:30:11.480 our Raw shows

01:30:12.520 are at the same time

01:30:13.720 but on Thursday

01:30:14.640 Friday

01:30:15.460 and Saturday

01:30:16.320 and for those of you

01:30:17.560 who like your

01:30:18.140 trigonometry

01:30:18.680 on the go

01:30:19.360 it's also available

01:30:20.600 as a podcast

01:30:21.740 take care

01:30:22.620 and see you soon guys

TRIGGERnometry - January 24, 2022

Doctor Answers BANNED Questions About COVID - Dr Zubin Damania

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