Does Politics Belong in Sport？ - Simon Jordan
Episode Stats
Words per minute
197.0387
Harmful content
Misogyny
3
sentences flagged
Toxicity
17
sentences flagged
Hate speech
18
sentences flagged
Summary
Simon Jordan is a businessman and the former owner and chairman of Crystal Palace Football Club. In this episode, Simon shares his story of how he became the man behind one of the most recognisable names in British football, and how he went on to become the most successful man in British sport.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.
00:00:08.980
And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:00:14.260
Our brilliant guest today is a businessman and the former owner and chairman of Crystal Palace Football Club, Simon Jordan.
00:00:21.320
It's great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on.
00:00:24.020
We've got a big international audience, so some of them might not be familiar with you and your background and your story.
00:00:29.360
Tell everybody a little bit about who are you, how are you, where you are,
00:00:32.560
what is the journey that brings you here sitting and talking to us?
00:00:37.160
I mean, I was born and brought up in South London.
00:00:39.120
My father started as a footballer, moved into being a printer,
00:00:43.020
and I was born in South London, 100 yards away from a football club
00:00:47.180
I started working in a city when I was 19 years of age in computing,
00:00:51.540
felt I was the best thing since sliced bread, found out that I wasn't,
00:00:54.520
morphed into doing something in the sales industry,
00:00:56.620
Had a couple of businesses, didn't go the way I wanted to, went to America, got some
00:01:00.280
experience over there for two or three years, trying to start businesses over there, came
00:01:04.040
back when I was 24, started to work for Charles Dunstan at the Carphone Warehouse because
00:01:09.160
the mobile phone industry was something I'd known from a previous incarnation.
00:01:12.900
Had a couple of years, 18 months with him, built him one of the most successful parts
00:01:17.280
of his business, looked at him, thought, there's nothing particularly special about you guys
00:01:22.080
So I went out and started a business, became the second largest mobile phone retailer in
00:01:26.060
the UK. After five years, 257 shops, 2,000 staff, and huge ambition, I decided there's two ways for
00:01:34.840
me to go. I can float this business, and I'm not sure that telcos at that particular time
00:01:38.280
were the right propositions to float 20 years ago, or given the expansion programme, given the fact
00:01:44.540
that I'd started with 15 grand and built it into the empire that was there with 257 shops as I
00:01:49.440
just described, we were undercapitalised. What do I want to do? Do I want to raise some capital? Do I
00:01:53.700
want to float or do I want to sell? So I took an opportunity to do at the time, and I still think
00:01:58.100
remains now the biggest private industry sell, and sold it. Took it 78 million plus some stock
00:02:03.400
and walked away with an ambition to do a variety of other things. One of the things that came onto
00:02:09.420
my horizon was the football club that my father played for, that I'd been born a hundred yards
00:02:15.160
away from, supported all my life, had signed schoolboy forms for when I was a kid. It was in
00:02:19.860
distress. You were quite a promising player yourself. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I'd signed for
00:02:24.320
Chelsea and moved on from Chelsea to Palace when Terry Venables, who's quite a well-known
00:02:29.120
sports figure at the time, was in his pomp at Crystal Palace. It hadn't worked out for
00:02:33.900
me. Football is not just about talent, it's about mental application and a pure, unadulterated
00:02:40.260
desire to be successful. That doesn't mean it doesn't translate, unadulterated desire
00:02:44.400
to be successful doesn't translate into other fields, but football playing wasn't my calling
00:02:48.860
in the end so I morphed into the other things I've just described but come back 14 years and
00:02:53.940
the opportunity if you want to describe owning a football club as an opportunity came my way
00:02:57.980
and I figured hmm this is the next frontier sports uh not so much franchises but sports
00:03:05.500
opportunities were becoming more exciting the broadcasters were becoming more invested the
00:03:11.340
opportunity was beginning to become what I felt more grown up and mature and I thought well what's
00:03:16.200
the worst thing can happen it's a bit like the Dr Pepper moment be careful what you wish for you
00:03:20.660
know what's the worst thing that can possibly happen so I bought Crystal Palace 10 years of
00:03:24.660
owning it on my own was arduous and financially challenging 2009-2010 with a variety of businesses
00:03:31.400
I was invested in which wasn't just football clubs it was film production companies it was
00:03:35.040
restaurant groups it was car magazines it was Spanish properties American properties and a
00:03:39.660
variety of non-risky things brought me to an economic challenge which involved me ultimately
00:03:45.180
losing the football club, handing it on to others, and then moving on with a different
00:03:48.960
phase in my life, which brings me to writing books and having intellectual capital to invest
00:03:54.200
in businesses, and now having some fun with broadcasting. So there you are, there's the
00:03:59.000
guided tour, quick as I can get to it. And I used to do talk sport, I used to do
00:04:04.820
overnights at talk sport. Did you? Yeah, I did indeed. But I've been watching you talk
00:04:09.780
about sport, and that's the reason we wanted to get you on, because we thought you were
00:04:12.680
absolutely brilliant thank you it's a very very interesting moment for sport at the moment because
00:04:18.580
we see more and more politics and sports start to merge unfortunately that's true yeah yeah and i
00:04:24.920
would just we'd just like to get your take on it what do you think about it and do you think it's
00:04:28.620
a step in the right direction when you say politics i think sport is being leveraged by politicians at
00:04:35.240
times you know when you look at the current climate in england with the landscape of professional
00:04:41.820
football and the government trading off opportunities because there's political capital
00:04:46.340
to be made, whether it's using sport to rail against the online operators and with the
00:04:54.520
online harms bill being brought in by the government and sport being very vociferous
00:04:59.260
about abuse, whether it be racial or whether it be any kind of abuse. So the government
00:05:04.840
have been vociferous in that respect. It's also been over the years a stocking filler.
00:05:09.580
If you look at the Labour Party 10, 15 years ago,
00:05:12.220
suggesting that part of their manifesto was the idea
00:05:17.920
to have an opportunity for fans to have 10% every time ownership changed.
00:05:24.800
And of course, we've got the societal issues more than the political ones
00:05:27.880
where sport's really being, I don't know if you want to say leveraged,
00:05:31.460
but certainly harnessed by good and bad causes, I think.
00:05:35.860
and of course we've seen a very challenging year in the last 12 months for a variety of reasons
00:05:40.540
you know for the bleeding obvious of COVID-19 but we've seen some of the aberrations in society we
00:05:45.780
saw the dreadful events in America with George Floyd which have then been you know afforded
00:05:51.700
opportunities for people to bring certain initiatives forward right and wrong ones
00:05:55.780
superimposing some of the things that are happening in America into our country I'm
00:05:59.720
uncomfortable with. But notwithstanding that, equal opportunity and discrimination are two
00:06:06.280
things that need to be looked at very carefully. Equal opportunity, of course, doesn't mean equal
00:06:10.300
outcome. But equal opportunity is a fundamental right that everybody has. And sport can play a
00:06:15.380
part in that. I don't like, I have never liked, and I've been very vociferous about the sports
00:06:19.320
field being utilised to advance messages, because it's a Pandora's box. You open that box for one
00:06:24.480
cause, you've got to open it for all. And I understand that there's some causes that are
00:06:28.000
more worthy than others you know and there are some animals that are more equal than others
00:06:32.300
according to George Orwell but we are in a world where sport is entertainment the purpose of sport
00:06:38.200
in my view is to take people out of grey lives give them 90 minutes of entertainment in the world
1.00
00:06:44.080
of football terms and then put them back with something that's altered their afternoon good
00:06:48.280
and bad not to be leveraged for agendas so my trouble with the idea that it's been politicized
00:06:56.780
I think it's been agenderized more than politicized.
00:06:59.900
But there is an element of politics being played into place
00:07:03.560
when you've got movements like Black Lives Matter
00:07:06.120
and other scenarios where sport will try to be leveraged for various advances.
00:07:14.020
And I'm very comfortable for high-profile sports stars to use their platforms,
00:07:18.600
but I'm not comfortable for the pitch to be used.
00:07:23.300
I'm uncomfortable with the methods that are being deployed at times.
00:07:26.100
and I'm uncomfortable with the manner in which the messages
00:07:28.980
are being imparted by some of the mainstream media
00:07:30.940
that leverage sport and also have their own bias.
00:07:35.020
It's a really, really good answer, what you've just said,
00:07:39.440
And it's happened particularly very, very quickly
00:07:47.360
Do you think players should be allowed to do it
00:07:52.160
which is there should be no politics, overt politics in sport?
00:07:56.100
at all? Well, my view is that there shouldn't be any politics in sports. I think that stars of
00:08:03.280
sport now have such a platform in a variety of other environments that they can utilise the
00:08:08.320
image that they want. And I'm not comfortable with the pitch being utilised or the stadium or
00:08:13.460
whatever you want. Now, I know there will be arguments that suggest that there are other
00:08:17.260
causes that are advanced. Whether you put a poppy on someone's shirt, you're doing the same thing.
00:08:20.020
And I hear that argument. I think they come from a different point of view, but I understand it.
00:08:24.140
I'm also uncomfortable with the not so much a tokenism of taking the knee the genesis of that
00:08:33.520
has been hijacked it's been hijacked from what Colin Kaepernick did which started with the fact
00:08:38.280
that he was wasn't in wasn't in the camera line so he was sitting on the bench sitting down when
00:08:43.920
the national flag was being celebrated before every single game and then because because he
00:08:48.320
wasn't getting the attention he took a knee to demonstrate against the oppression and the racial
00:08:53.860
inequality and the abuse of black men and the police brutality now i'm troubled by that because
00:08:59.780
bringing that into an environment in this country where i do not believe i'm not black obviously and
0.53
00:09:05.200
i and i cannot look at the world through the eyes of a black person i have a i have mixed race in
00:09:09.760
my family i've been brought up in south london and i understand some of the dynamics of it but i can
00:09:14.080
never actually walk through someone's shoes or have someone's lived experience is the is the
00:09:18.180
expression and you know and if i don't agree with things of course unconscious bias will come to
00:09:22.520
play in the minds of those whose opinions I don't agree with. But I was always troubled with the
00:09:27.280
taking of the knee. And the reasons why I was troubled with the taking of the knee is not
00:09:31.320
because it came from Game of Thrones, like one of our moron politicians said, or because it
0.98
00:09:36.100
symbolised subservience. It's because it represented something that a politically
0.98
00:09:43.920
motivated organisation had attached themselves to. And whether people like it or they don't like it,
00:09:50.320
Black Lives Matter as a statement is something I'm very comfortable with.
00:09:54.720
Black Lives Matter as a movement is something I'm very uncomfortable with
1.00
00:09:59.500
because I think their agendas and their outlook and their destruction
00:10:04.300
or their ideals behind the destruction of society,
00:10:08.760
or whether you've got a whole range of ideas that destruct capitalism,
00:10:15.160
destruct society, defund police, and God knows whatever else they want.
00:10:19.660
To have that agenda dropped into a sport by association was a trouble for me.
00:10:27.360
And the reasons why I made certain observations which people were uncomfortable with,
00:10:32.920
they were uncomfortable within the framework of the broadcasting platform that I use at times.
00:10:36.620
And it was misrepresentation because there was an example in England
00:10:40.220
with a particular football club that has a notorious background or a little bit of infamy
00:10:45.220
where an issue had arisen that players were taking the knee
00:10:51.640
And I raised the question because I'm very, very focused
00:10:55.000
on mainstream media activity and the agenda rising
00:10:58.020
and the misrepresentation and the lack of nuance
00:11:01.340
that they want to put on when they want to sensationalise things.
00:11:09.380
rather than after a stable diet had been force-fed into our minds
00:11:14.660
about BLM we had seen people running around in London defacing statues you know running around
00:11:23.700
spray painting Winston Churchill's statue with the BLM moniker and we had also been indoctrinated
0.68
00:11:31.440
by mainstream media about the existence of Black Lives Matter as a movement in America and its
00:11:36.740
origins and its thinking and it was to me unfathomable that people there wasn't a possibility
00:11:42.600
that people were rebelling against the concept of Black Lives Matter,
00:11:47.120
the political motivation, rather than the statement that, of course, Black Lives Matter.
00:11:55.260
And subsequently, the association with the taking of the knee.
00:12:01.620
They had to make statements before games, even though people said,
00:12:05.180
this is very clear, people like you, Simon, are choosing not to understand what this means.
00:12:10.180
you're choosing to select the messages you want to hear well I'm not because if it was so clear
00:12:15.980
then the people that were taking the knee themselves wouldn't need to put out statements
00:12:20.080
to reinforce that they were kneeling for anti-discrimination and then we move into the
00:12:26.020
territory of having been a football club owner been inside this industry and I'm very troubled
00:12:32.080
with the fact that the allegation is that the football industry is racist and there's racism
00:12:38.700
within the confines of it or our society is racist systemically is the allegation and I was
00:12:45.360
troubled by these things because I concur and accept and abhor racism in every form and I see
00:12:55.700
it on the terraces but I didn't see it in the industry and just because statistics are the
00:13:02.300
beginning of a conversation they don't mean they're the end of it and statistics were being
00:13:05.760
brought up about the football industry being racist because there wasn't enough representation
00:13:10.980
and I wanted to question the reasons why I don't want someone to give me a fact without support
00:13:17.500
I don't need someone to tell me to educate myself and then if I cut if I don't come around to their
00:13:23.220
way of thinking go away and educate myself some more all right I have my own views and often
00:13:28.340
they're based upon experience and having been an owner in a football club having been an owner of
00:13:33.240
a football club in a multi-ethnic environment driven by multi-ethnicity and never having an
00:13:38.000
application from the black community I'm struggling with the idea that the game is racist at its core
00:13:44.740
so the issue for me was what are you actually kneeling for you're kneeling for societal issues
00:13:49.660
and I'm not sure that sport should be held up as the poster boy or leveraged to be such it shouldn't
00:13:56.520
be held to a higher standard because I don't think that's fair on sport I think that's wrong and those
00:14:01.300
that want to do it are people that are trying to genderise it for their own end game and not
00:14:05.520
necessarily for the benefit of those they purport to represent. And see, that misrepresentation that
00:14:12.140
you talk about where you say, I don't support BLM, the organisation, but I support BLM, Black Lives
00:14:17.740
Matter, the slogan, is actually what people call the Mott and Bailey tactic, where you present
00:14:22.520
something which is defund the police, abolish capitalism, etc. And the moment anyone criticises
00:14:28.040
it, you retreat to the position, well, you're saying black lives don't matter, which of
00:14:36.140
But, you know, I think one of the, just to step back a little bit more, one of the reasons
00:14:39.640
people love sports so much is at least they perceive it as a meritocracy, right?
00:14:44.440
People think, and I don't know, you tell us whether this is true or false, that, you
00:14:48.580
know, the whole point about sport is if you're good, you're going to succeed.
00:14:55.080
Is that accurate in terms of the Premier League and football in general?
00:15:01.980
and people from certain backgrounds are kept out
00:15:08.280
I think football is a landscape where, and I don't mean to be flippant,
00:15:19.820
So they don't prejudice against colour or creed.
00:15:22.620
that the only thing that's prejudicing football is integrity
00:15:25.280
because there's not a lot of it going on from the pitch upwards,
00:15:28.320
from players cheating through to the current climate
00:15:30.840
of football club owners wanting to do precisely what they want
00:15:33.440
with zero concern about the rest of the ecosystem,
00:15:39.320
by 20 clubs in the Premier League that couldn't give a monkey
00:15:44.000
So there's a lot of hypocrisy in the world of sport.
00:15:50.500
whether it's economic meritocracy or it's sporting prowess within the confines of football,
00:15:55.760
the economic power and might of the big clubs in English football
00:16:00.640
and the talent that they are able to attract is part and parcel of two things,
00:16:08.700
The challenge I have is that sports need governance.
00:16:11.980
It needs to mature and needs proper governance.
00:16:14.200
And the landscape of sports, those that can affect those that can't,
00:16:18.320
unfortunately in football because of the collective relationships of how football is
00:16:21.480
held together how sports like football are held together so those that can the argument that
00:16:27.600
football should oh football's going bankrupt or clubs are getting themselves into trouble and
00:16:31.700
they should have the nancy reagan mentality of just say no to the next player transfer
00:16:35.580
is for the birds because football is a public domain business that's driven by sentiment
00:16:40.700
driven by momentum driven by demands and having been an owner that didn't lose his head but still
00:16:46.400
wanted to try and satisfy my own ambitions to the fans ambitions there are different forces that
00:16:51.120
come to pass and if you haven't got governance in sports specifically financial governance and
00:16:55.700
then you've got nation states that buy football clubs that are worth 320 billion quid and they
00:16:59.500
can buy who they want when they want and they drive the price up for everybody else and then
00:17:03.580
the fallback fall down effect is everybody else gets affected by it then it becomes a very
00:17:08.140
challenging landscape and those are the things that i would have i rail against in the incarnation
00:17:13.840
I have now, which is broadcasting alongside other things that I do, at the same time as
00:17:18.180
remembering how I railed against it whilst I was in it. So sporting meritocracy, of course it exists
00:17:24.840
because the best are clearly the best. The opportunities based upon colour and creed and
00:17:31.300
ethnicity are not denied in sports because the four corners of the world fling forward the talent
00:17:36.880
and the opportunity exists evermore in sport because the channels are far wider open because
00:17:42.920
people are looking for talent across the four you know the four corners of the world so no I don't
00:17:48.160
believe emphatically do not believe some of the nonsense that's trotted out that certain communities
00:17:53.040
are precluded and excluded from opportunities and that's not because I sit here as a middle-aged
00:17:58.600
white man with the luxury of having white privilege it's because I sit here not sitting
00:18:02.800
in the world of theory and live in a world of experience and those are some of the things that
00:18:08.180
I find very difficult with the mainstream media if you listen some of the broadcasting which I
00:18:12.080
know you have done I spend a lot of my time really teeing off on the mainstream media because I
00:18:17.780
object to the manner in which things are represented I object to some of the ideas that
00:18:22.700
were advanced when we had these dreadful situations on Clapham Common with that vigil for that poor
00:18:27.520
girl that was murdered and then we see the police being brutalized and people piling in
00:18:32.600
and politicians suggesting that we've got to have apologies left right and center because nothing now
00:18:37.100
that you do in life doesn't come with an apology and even if you apologize for it it's still not
00:18:41.280
good enough yet when we find out the real truth behind these sort of events we never see the
00:18:46.040
people that made the accusations the politicians like Keir Starmer or other people that came out
00:18:50.460
Ed Davey that came out and vilified police never come back up again and say well actually we were
00:18:55.840
wrong we should be apologizing now so I'm I am very across these things and have very strong
00:19:01.400
views about it and I just want authenticity I want honesty you know we can all cope with honesty
00:19:06.720
we can all cope with the truth being told to us
00:19:14.700
is so often you know we're through the looking glass
00:19:17.980
what's up is down you know what people want to show you
00:19:21.480
they don't show you nuance they show you binary
00:19:31.000
and people have the right to see a little bit more than they do see
00:19:36.180
looking for a career that's in demand and built to last skilled trades and technologies offer
00:19:42.000
practical training strong pay and limitless potential skills canada ontario helps you
00:19:48.100
explore these paths through hands-on programs and competitions that open doors to new possibilities
00:19:53.480
discover a career you're passionate about and create a lasting impact
00:19:57.600
i'm sherry holmes to learn more visit skillsontario.com and start building your future today
00:20:17.380
but you were a very wealthy man when you purchased Crystal Palace.
00:20:26.740
By comparison to the people who own football clubs now.
00:20:30.620
The scale of opportunity and the scale of individual
00:20:35.680
You know, some would say Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea
00:20:39.440
And the motivations behind the Middle Eastern consortiums
00:20:42.040
may well be sports washing, if you want to make those allegations.
00:20:44.820
People buy football clubs for a variety of reasons,
00:20:46.480
some for credibility, some for recognizability,
00:20:50.100
And you're absolutely right that the association of wealth now
00:20:53.940
is far greater to, you know, to be an owner of a football club.
00:20:58.420
When I made 100 million quid when I was 31 years of age,
00:21:03.260
By comparison, I'm a waiter now in economic terms.
00:21:06.040
And what do you think the impact of that is on the game?
00:21:08.620
What do you think the impact of that is on the game?
00:21:11.900
We see the best players in the world playing in the Premier League?
00:21:17.080
Arsene Wenger famously described it as financial doping.
00:21:25.120
I think with all money comes an element of corruption and pollution
00:21:30.060
and the changing of agendas and the changing of motivations.
00:21:33.960
And I don't just mean win-it-all-cost mentality.
00:21:39.420
It does take away the fight within you because it softens you.
00:21:43.020
And it takes away some of the integrity of the sport
00:21:47.160
because we are seeing a sport now driven by money.
00:21:51.200
specifically and explicitly in the last two weeks
00:21:53.440
with the Premier League and the so-called super clubs
00:21:56.600
trying to find a mechanism to generate more revenue,
00:22:03.460
because we've got a situation where the player salaries
00:22:22.940
and whoever else were going to come in at a later stage,
00:22:24.940
we'll never know or never know in this incarnation the the issue was about the loss of sport in
00:22:31.560
meritocracy but to go to your theme of the financial side of it it is just that it is just
00:22:40.000
the reality of the world that we now live in and when I had a vision 20 years ago looking at sports
00:22:46.340
thinking bloody difficult business far easier ways to keep my money let me make some more
00:23:23.540
the economics of life from the lowest common denominator
00:23:29.720
It turns the world, whether countries invade other countries
0.95
00:23:32.560
to preserve oil reservoirs or whether football clubs
00:23:47.200
I'd like governance, I'd like control over our sport
00:23:49.440
because there's nothing wrong with football clubs making money
00:23:52.260
and there's nothing wrong with owners making money
00:24:12.320
because when you're paying footballers £200,000 a week
00:24:32.880
And, you know, I don't see that landscape changing anytime soon.
00:24:36.540
We've just got to mature, try and make sure that the industry
00:24:41.880
and protect these football clubs at the same time
00:24:47.220
you know a bit like a listed building and have a certain set of protections because they are part
00:24:53.460
of the community they are part of the unique values of this country and any country that's
00:24:57.580
got football clubs that and sports environments that are very important to them but we are now
00:25:02.920
moving into the territory in this country where we sell everything don't we you know we're quite
00:25:06.840
prepared to sell the London Stock Exchange not so long ago so why wouldn't our community products
00:25:10.620
like football clubs be sold I just and and again not to be too uh waxing lyrical about the value
00:25:18.340
of football clubs I love football fans I grew up being a football fan I value the football fans
00:25:23.460
but they're part of the problem because they're the ones that scream for the next billionaire to
00:25:26.220
come in um and the challenge for me is is how do you deliver back on their expectations when their
00:25:34.360
expectations are unrealistic football started as a working person sports when you start flying
00:25:40.000
players around the world and private jets it's a business and when you start attracting
00:25:44.660
billionaires in there you have to grow up and realize why these people are there they're not
00:25:48.680
there because they like moss side and they're not there because they like the king's road
00:25:52.540
they're there because there's an opportunity and a reason for them to be there and it isn't because
00:25:56.600
of the love of the football club they may develop an affinity and association with it but it'll
00:26:01.460
always be a conduit and vehicle for whatever other ambitions aspirations and ideals people
00:26:30.840
that has been incredibly supportive to our show
00:26:36.140
The great thing about Locals is that it's a community for people who love trigonometry.
00:26:40.940
That's right. It's a place for you to hang out with like-minded people,
00:26:45.920
You can enjoy it for free, but it also gives you the option of supporting us
00:26:54.740
We have incredible rewards for our higher-tier supporters as well.
00:26:58.080
We've got everything from mugs, monthly group calls,
00:27:03.800
Join our community by hitting the link in the description and the pinned comment below.
00:27:11.120
And Simon, we were talking about, just jumping back a little bit to the earlier part of the interview,
00:27:17.460
where you were talking about the sport not being racist.
00:27:19.960
I suppose the one consistent argument against that is the issue of black managers.
0.96
00:27:24.880
Why are there so few black managers when I think, is it something like 40%, perhaps more, of footballers are black or mixed race?
00:28:01.460
is football responsible for a certain community stepping up is there a blockage I've asked the
00:28:07.480
question on a number of occasions I never get an answer because I question it not because I want
00:28:12.720
to question it not because I'm uncomfortable with it not because I'm a white man that wants to
00:28:16.100
protect his position because I want to know what the problem is once you know what the problem is
00:28:19.720
you can fix it I don't want hyperbole I don't want the the the the theory I want the fact
00:29:01.020
is that more black women die in childbirth.
0.77
00:29:04.280
Boom, that's an example of institutional racism.
0.90
00:29:10.100
Is it because more black women have more children?
1.00
00:29:12.940
Is it because there's a congenital defect?
0.71
00:29:16.440
Is there reasons behind this so-called institutional racism?
00:29:18.980
Because I thought 27% of the National Health Service
00:29:23.880
I thought there was a leaning towards making sure
00:29:27.140
that there's a correct balance within the framework of...
00:29:30.580
I've just had a baby boy, so I'm talking from experience.
00:29:41.540
OK, you're telling me that there's a systemic racist problem in football,
00:29:50.180
I never had an application from a black manager for a job at a football club which was multi-ethnic
00:29:57.120
which had black players black supporters and I had black coaches and I employed people from
00:30:02.520
all communities when people approached me oh well Simon you're the exception no I'm really not the
00:30:07.420
exception right so what is the issue I try to get the statistics through okay tell me the the channels
00:30:15.520
that are open for black managers to be successful in?
00:30:19.680
How many black coaches have we got that are being qualified
1.00
00:30:24.080
Because part of the ability to be a manager in English football
00:30:30.660
Are we producing 30% of the coaches that are coming through
00:30:34.420
from the black community and only 6% of the jobs?
00:30:38.320
Or is it 10% of the coaches that are coming through are black
00:30:43.360
and 6% of them are getting, and the statistics are 6%.
00:30:46.780
So there's not this big disparity, but I never get an answer.
00:30:51.880
I ask people, I ask questions about what does institutional racism look like
00:30:56.500
in a country that has 25% of the cabinet from black and minority ethnic groups
00:31:03.360
that has the chairman of the Conservative Party, James Cleverley,
00:31:09.840
I look at the mayor of London and see that opportunity from that community.
00:31:15.600
And I say to myself, if we are an institutional society,
00:31:21.160
how are these situations manifesting themselves?
00:31:23.500
And I read up on critical race theory to understand the mechanisms behind it.
00:31:29.980
And the answer I get back is these people are Uncle Tom's.
00:31:35.360
These people are gateways from morphing into one community or another.
00:31:39.320
And I say, well, I can't win then because there isn't a critical thinking
00:31:44.080
There is a motivation to suggest that unless I see your point of view,
00:31:47.280
I have unconscious bias, I have white privilege.
00:31:50.600
And I struggle with these things because I really do believe as a man
00:31:54.440
and as a human being that everyone has the right for equal opportunity
00:32:00.940
Jordan Peterson, trope I know, but notwithstanding it, still relevant.
00:32:04.820
and I look at that and say we are moving into a world of quotas
00:32:13.040
so we'll now have a country and a business environment that's made up of
00:32:16.840
so if you're going to put people on boards because of their colour
00:32:19.220
you've got to put them on there because of their age, because of their sexuality
00:32:21.740
because of their, you've got to put people that are disabled to represent that quota
1.00
00:32:26.200
so all of a sudden you'll have a country made up of quotas
00:32:28.700
and we will go to the dogs because talent will be moved to one side
00:32:37.780
So I have these views, whether they're right or wrong.
00:32:40.400
I don't sit there with a blinkered point of view saying,
00:32:52.400
I think the problem exists much amongst the community
00:33:01.540
we're good enough to be in the theatre as the actors but we're not good enough to be the
00:33:06.100
impresarios I hear that nobody is stopping people from any community from buying a football club
00:33:11.600
you know anyone's money is the same colour and I speak to you know people within the game and I
00:33:18.680
ask the question about racism in football Trevor Sinclair is a very good friend of mine Trevor
00:33:22.800
tell me what racism have you experienced in football well I've been called rude names by
00:33:30.820
and football clubs have a zero tolerance policy
00:33:40.840
because I don't want to discredit the argument.
00:34:01.100
because what you're being told isn't a real issue.
00:34:08.780
The statistic is a beginning of a conversation.
00:34:12.220
of the reason for the lack of representation in sports.
00:34:15.660
The reason for lack of representation from the Asian community.
00:34:18.720
Once upon a time, Michael Chopra was an Asian footballer
00:34:23.060
that was owned by a friend of mine, St John Hall.
00:34:27.360
because we lived together next to one another in Spain.
00:34:31.180
was the beginning of the Asian opportunity
0.69
00:34:34.380
to bring young talented Asian footballers into football,
00:34:41.760
It hasn't happened and the representation is there.
00:34:46.480
They're interested in pointing their finger at it
00:34:52.220
based upon someone being positively discriminated, do they?
00:34:56.660
There's lots of people who do, but it's funny, nor do we.
00:35:00.120
And it's funny, you're talking about many other things
00:35:09.920
But it's interesting to me that you're coming at it.
00:35:17.440
with an owner of another football club who said,
00:35:29.600
And as I said, Slava flippantly, you know,
1.00
00:35:32.260
that they would have employed Osama Bin Laden
0.96
00:35:33.800
if he were alive and could have won games for them.
00:35:36.540
That tells you that it's not about colour or creed.
00:35:42.260
why there isn't representation or advanced causes,
00:35:47.660
But I genuinely believe that there are not enough
00:35:51.180
black coaches coming through that are getting their badges i believe that the actual landscape
00:35:57.340
when we talk about 30 because the figure is advanced 30 percent of players in the premier
00:36:03.020
league are from the black or minority ethnic communities predominantly black right and i know
00:36:07.900
we've got to separate the word bane now um because there's an objection to that that mnemonic i don't
00:36:12.860
know where it came from in the first place i never wanted to use it i want to call black people black
00:36:15.700
but you know we move and we adjust to the times don't we but when you actually distill that down
00:36:20.460
and say, well, actually, only 64 of those players
00:36:35.680
but I'm still not understanding why that is the case.
00:36:51.520
if you're trying to get rid of racism in football
00:37:05.080
I'm troubled with not because I want to be troubled
00:37:07.500
by it because I have no dog in the fight anymore
00:37:09.060
I don't own a football club anymore and I'm only
00:37:19.480
utilised for someone else's agenda that wants to shout the loudest and you we get that a lot i mean
00:37:24.900
look the the american football brought in the rooney rule do you think that could be a good idea
00:37:29.160
um i'm not against it they brought it into the english football league which is obviously the
00:37:35.100
tier below the premier league but they didn't do it properly which is so often the case with
00:37:40.020
football that they brought it in without reporting mechanisms they brought it in as a protocol
00:37:44.000
and a guideline, but they didn't bring in reporting
00:37:47.520
to really be able to get underneath the fingernails
00:37:52.880
how people were being given an opportunity from all communities.
00:38:04.720
that advances opportunity for talent, then I'm for.
00:38:08.940
You know, I build a business that I was involved in very, very heavily.
00:38:13.140
You don't build a business with 15 grand and in five years sell it for the best part of 100 million quid,
00:38:17.860
never having borrowed the money, never had any investors,
00:38:20.660
and just be different without really being underneath the fingernails of it.
00:38:23.660
And I spoke to every single member of staff on every single induction course
00:38:27.480
and every single trading regime, instilling in them the belief that I couldn't care what they looked like,
00:38:32.820
where they came from, what their colour creed was, what their ethnicity was, what their sex was.
00:38:36.600
All I cared about was that they did a good job.
00:38:39.060
And I gave them an opportunity to have the opportunity they wanted,
00:38:42.260
which was life is about success irrespective of the measure of success because we go to work to
00:38:50.000
have a better life outside of it I'm going to give you the opportunity to be successful I'm going to
00:38:54.520
demand from you your very best if you work for me for six days six weeks six months or six years I
00:39:00.280
want your best six days six weeks six months or six years and expect the same from me and irrespective
00:39:04.920
of what you look like where you come from I will afford you all those opportunities and you will
00:39:09.340
take them yourself and make them yourself. And I believe in that emphatically. So that
00:39:13.440
then translates into my outlook in life. So I believe religiously and emphatically in
00:39:19.440
the fact that talent is the definer. Talent is the definer. And I rail against the fact
00:39:24.900
that people will agendarize certain challenges that they may have and put it down to the
00:39:33.700
fact that people are suppressing them because of their ethnicity i accept i accept the argument
00:39:40.120
in this country that we have racism in this country and exists on both sides of all communities
00:39:44.640
right and i don't accept that the same issues that happen in america which has a 40 percent
00:39:50.360
racial mix towards latinos and the black community and the caucasian community whereas in this
0.78
00:39:56.320
country it's very different dynamics and i don't accept the societal issues in america exist here
00:40:02.700
and I'm very challenged by the argument that's advanced
00:40:08.680
to suggest this country is institutionally racist.
00:40:11.980
I don't accept it, not because I don't want to,
00:40:14.960
because I live in this country and I have open eyes
00:40:21.120
and I know that's a token argument that people advance,
00:40:27.220
and I see the opportunities that he does or doesn't have
00:40:36.040
that there is endemic racism in this country and in this society.
00:40:45.680
Endemic means it's localised and it's not specific to,
00:40:54.740
But, you know, but the argument's not being advanced as a choice, is it?
0.80
00:40:57.720
It's being advanced that this country is systemically racist.
00:41:09.300
designed to suppress one race in the advancement of another.
0.70
00:41:13.780
And whilst I accept that there was redlining in America
00:41:16.220
and that people were struggling to break out of economic depravity,
00:41:23.360
and the Italians and the Jews after the First and Second World War
00:41:27.280
and I accept it and I understand it and I think it's deplorable,
00:41:36.300
and then I want to make people accountable for them
00:41:42.900
I mean, this has been unlike anything that any of us have seen.
00:41:51.040
and do you think the government has actually provided enough support
00:41:53.440
for people like you who are running businesses to keep them afloat?
00:41:57.420
I think, you know, we're in an uncharted world.
00:42:01.180
I hate to use the terminology unprecedented because it's been flogged to death by everybody that can't find an alternative word.
00:42:06.780
But I think the government has stepped up and done far better than it's been given credit for.
00:42:12.120
I think we're in a world where it's very easy to sit on the other side of the fence and point your finger at what's not being done rather than looking at the reality of what has been done.
00:42:19.600
I'm not interested in debt costs and how much debt we've raised because I think Britain has the ability to power out of this because there's not anything fundamentally wrong with the economics of this country.
00:42:31.960
This is not 2008, 2009, where you've got a problem
00:42:36.380
with the constructs of the way that the banks operated.
00:42:40.680
Basel III wasn't a part of parcel of the banks thinking.
00:42:43.620
They had fundamental problems with the manner in which they were lending.
00:42:47.000
Wall Street was driving the economics of certain things.
00:42:50.040
So you look at that and say, when we shut down in 2008, 2009,
00:42:53.860
and the world went to hell in the handcart economically,
00:42:58.720
We're not broken, we've just committed an enormous act of self-harm,
00:43:03.160
which is shutting the world down on the basis of,
00:43:06.740
I don't deny, I'm not a COVID denier, I'm not an anti-vaxxer,
00:43:10.640
I am very troubled by the manner in which the media
00:43:13.880
has created an absolute fear culture around the disease
00:43:18.460
that doesn't seem to be fundamentally different
00:43:23.860
where more than a million people died around the world,
00:43:26.960
but nobody shut the world down and I know Rocco Fawlty wrote an article about that saying does
00:43:31.180
anybody remember the Hong Kong flu because I was around at that time no nobody does because it
00:43:34.780
wasn't leveraged the way it has been leveraged by the media I have a great trouble with the media
00:43:39.720
because I think one of the worst and that's ironic given the fact I operate in it I understand that
00:43:44.200
it's not about being in the media it's about how you are operating within the confines of the media
00:43:47.540
one of the worst things that's happened is 24-hour rolling news cycles because you need to keep
00:43:52.800
creating content. That means you get 25 epidemiologists to be able to contradict one
00:43:57.740
another, to be able to keep the news cycle running. One of the most disgraceful things I've seen
00:44:01.500
recently was Sky News, when we had the foresight in this country to have the medical, the MHRA
00:44:08.000
were able to license the vaccines quickly before anybody else. And they flew over Anthony Fauci
00:44:15.640
from New York to give an opinion on our vaccine, saying that the standards in America would be
00:44:20.500
higher for the regulatory granting of the licensing of vaccines. And then Sky had the
00:44:27.280
audacity after creating vaccine doubt, had the audacity in the next cycle to rail against the
00:44:33.760
fact that anyone should be doubting vaccine. Well, we weren't doubting vaccines until you came along
00:44:37.380
and brought somebody over who had to apologise a week later. And then the particular vaccine
00:44:42.300
that he was criticising was then licensed by the Americans. So, you know, I have views about
00:44:52.120
It sounds as if I've got an agenda with the media.
00:44:53.660
I just want people to be given the right information
00:45:02.180
I descaled and moved into capital opportunities.
00:45:15.260
Theopithetus, obviously with hundreds and hundreds of stores,
00:45:17.880
they were already getting their backsides kicked by the online guys
00:45:21.200
in terms of the fact that if you've got retail footprints,
00:45:23.920
you're in a difficult position because you're paying rates
00:45:26.080
and you've got a cost of sale which is dwarfed by the cost of sale
00:45:30.840
that the online guys, the Amazons of the world have.
0.97
00:45:36.580
As far as supporting the economics of businesses,
00:45:39.980
you can run an argument that people weren't supported.
00:45:41.800
You can run an argument that there were certain smaller businesses
00:45:44.680
where directors weren't able, who paid themselves through dividends,
00:45:47.880
weren't able to be able to claim the same money
00:45:55.640
the reasons why you pay yourself through dividends
00:46:00.980
so you can draw less when a crisis like this comes along.
00:46:11.260
Whoever was in situ would have had a buggers muddle
00:46:20.680
So how are you ever going to have stocks of PPE?
00:46:34.040
I'm not suggesting we couldn't have done better.
00:46:35.660
I'm not suggesting the Daily Mail didn't prove it
00:46:40.460
I was also of the impression that the care service
00:46:56.960
at the height of this particular challenge that we had
00:47:13.260
with that for me and i'm not going to like what i'm about to say is these world these people live
00:47:16.840
in a world of research and development they live with the desire to allow you to live with things
00:47:22.260
rather than cure with cure things they also never seem to have any accountability go back surgery
00:47:27.500
am i going to come out of this 100 okay well there's no guarantee well okay but you're the
00:47:32.420
doctor so can i have a guarantee a cast iron no medicine doesn't work that way when you put when
00:47:37.660
you deploy a country into the hands of people like this then you're never going to get an outcome
1.00
00:47:42.220
That's never going to be anything other than never ever.
00:47:45.080
Or yes, it could be this, yes, it could be that,
00:47:48.060
So I have great trouble with what's gone on over the last 12 months,
00:47:54.120
not just because it's been debilitating for people's mental well-being,
00:47:59.260
because the media have run it like a rolling countdown
00:48:04.080
running around like morbid, you know, sort of digital Birkenhairs,
00:48:11.040
but I'm not sure what else the government could have done
00:48:24.760
and I think the economy has the ability to power out of it
00:48:28.340
myself and John Caldwell don't agree on many things
00:48:33.140
but I've seen John with his narcissistically titled Caldwell plan
00:48:42.340
And Britain is a business model in terms of its economic landscape
00:48:47.660
to be able to power out of the challenges we've got.
00:48:53.460
that I've availed myself of and invested in a lot of COVID stock companies,
00:49:00.620
that have dropped off the radar with the fundamentals being okay,
00:49:04.160
but the sentiment driving the LSE and various other markets.
00:49:19.060
We're seeing a change of the way people are going to work.
00:49:25.960
people are more effective when they're in environments
00:49:39.660
and the way that residential and commercial is going to morph into one environment
00:49:46.580
But I think it's been brutal. How can it not be?
00:49:49.660
Simon, you made a couple of interesting points there.
00:49:51.680
First of all, the one about the scientists I completely agree with, by the way,
00:49:54.660
which is the whole thing about following the science
00:49:58.020
is an absurd way for politicians to protect themselves.
00:50:03.200
Because there's no such thing as following the science.
00:50:15.780
and risk assess and come out with the best outcome
00:50:19.760
what you said was the media because I'm someone who rails
00:50:32.820
Because they did a poll recently which showed that
00:50:36.680
if you poll people in this country about how many people have died,
00:50:45.760
So people think that 6 million people have died, right?
00:51:00.240
Let's not get into that because we're banned off YouTube.
00:51:07.740
We, the public, I mean, you and I may have not,
00:51:12.080
yes, the media, of course, they keep telling us
00:51:17.400
The public are the ones who watched all that nonsense
00:51:22.120
Do you not think that while we try and blame the media
00:51:32.040
Right. So which is worse? There is an element of people, you know, this may sound condescending,
00:51:39.200
but it's not meant to. There are very few leaders in the world. Most people are lemmings.
1.00
00:51:42.660
They follow. They look to get their opinions from other people. They follow people's example,
00:51:47.820
whether it's be fashion or whether it's people's opinions. If you've got broadcasters that are
00:51:53.040
constantly pumping information into you, there is an element of people, a proportion of society
00:51:58.280
that will suggest that because it's being put forward by a broadcaster,
00:52:03.120
that it has to have credibility, has to have substance,
00:52:07.300
Now, other people that are more prepared to kick the can
00:52:16.840
because people that evaluate things don't always not have an agenda.
00:52:19.860
They have their own motivation to be able to change it around
00:52:22.440
to advance the argument they want to at the time.
00:52:24.760
Of course there's an argument that you're supplying people what they want.
00:52:27.960
The Sun being a newspaper that people have vilified over the years,
00:52:30.680
yet still probably the biggest selling newspaper for a variety of reasons.
00:52:33.800
You know, I know people won't buy that newspaper in Liverpool
00:52:37.500
but it still remains to be one of the biggest read newspapers,
00:52:42.900
Piers Morgan and some of the things that he has said,
00:52:45.560
I happen to agree with some of the things he said about Meghan Markle,
00:52:47.720
and I happen to agree with some of the things he said about a lot of things,
00:52:50.960
but I don't happen to agree that he's a shining light of merit.
00:52:58.960
He's a hypocrite and we had him on our show once
1.00
00:53:02.460
and I don't know how he's got the audacity
0.91
00:53:09.840
than actually dealing with something more substantial.
00:53:12.580
When you get the health minister on that ghastly show GMB
00:53:17.300
and rather than talk about the progress of vaccines,
00:53:24.740
then you're in a clickbait world of news cycles
00:53:26.640
rather than a real broadcasting world that the public are entitled to see.
00:53:30.240
I accept that there has to be an element of showbiz or razzmatazz
00:53:34.660
or feel about it that gives people what they want to see at times.
00:53:38.560
And, of course, there is always the argument that we're only giving people what they want.
00:53:43.660
But, you know, you create that demand in them and then you feed that demand.
00:53:47.760
And, of course, there's a proletarian mentality.
00:53:50.820
They can sit there and go, more, more, more, I want more of that
00:53:55.360
And there is an element that people should find out for themselves.
00:54:11.100
128,000 people have died of this dreadful disease,
00:54:17.280
that actually the government have a motivation for it.
00:54:21.080
but I try to put it through a critical lens and understand it.
00:54:23.840
And I have very grave concerns about the manner in which the world is operating
00:54:27.420
and the way that we're being led to believe certain things.
00:54:30.420
But we all must take responsibility for our own thoughts.
00:54:34.300
And if we're all going to be... I mean, I'm personally not terrified.
00:54:41.720
And I've had members of my family that have had it.
00:54:44.560
And I don't want a society where we're walking around in masks.
00:54:47.460
I don't want social distancing. I don't want to live in fear of COVID.
00:54:52.500
I want the actual facts to come through about what's really happening with this situation
00:54:58.100
rather than some of what seems to be happening and I do agree emphatically with you that there
00:55:03.720
is an element of if you allow scientists to be the leading force behind what you're making your
00:55:09.560
decisions upon then you are abdicating responsibilities and I think Boris Johnson
00:55:12.520
and his cabinet are very very much guilty of that but when you've got low-grade politicians that we
00:55:16.660
have in this country in this day and age some of it could be because of the nature of abuse that
00:55:20.760
you get by being a politician some of it could be that you don't pay these people best in class
00:55:24.600
irrespective of the ridiculous expenses but you know we pay our politicians boris johnson's the
00:55:29.760
ceo of this country he's not paid like the ceo and it shouldn't be about money and we know that
00:55:33.480
further down the line he'll monetize it by being able to sell his memoirs and do whatever you know
00:55:39.020
the speeches that he and tony blair can do until the cows come home but it still doesn't alter the
00:55:44.040
fact that we don't have the best in class whether you like these people from the past or not whether
00:55:47.700
you like Michael Heseltine and think he was to be revered,
00:55:57.900
We have lightweight politicians that are half-baked,
00:56:02.860
which is running this country and running it properly
00:56:07.080
And I know that sounds easy to stay from the outside,
00:56:12.120
It shouldn't be something we say, oh, wow, that's special.
00:56:44.980
Your controversial opinions, where do they go for that online?
00:56:47.600
Well, if they like sports, they can listen to what I consider
00:56:49.780
to be the best broadcaster in the country, which is...
00:56:52.340
Trigonometry, besides trigonometry in the digital world.
00:56:55.220
But from a sports point of view, listen to TalkSport.
00:57:02.460
what's the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be?
00:57:07.520
and I was trying to think if there is such a thing as we're talking about.
00:57:09.880
I think there are very few things off the table right now.
00:57:13.800
Everything is being overanalyzed from how much a prime minister spends on his wallpaper
00:57:20.400
So I don't really look at anything out there and say, we're missing a trick here.
00:57:24.620
I'm sure I could have perhaps delved deeper into my psyche and thought of an answer,
00:57:28.320
but I don't have one off the top of my head thinking, I've got a burning question.
00:57:31.180
My burning question is, do we ask the right questions?
00:57:34.140
Do enough people that have enough intelligence and have the courage of their convictions
00:57:37.800
to advance arguments get the opportunity to do so?
00:57:42.580
are we allowing things to go on in this country
00:57:47.880
where you dare say something that people don't like
0.86
00:57:54.700
an appreciation of people having different views
00:57:58.860
without the necessity to be able to destroy one another
00:58:07.600
we will see you very soon with another brilliant interview