TRIGGERnometry - Douglas Murray： This is About Survival

00:00:00.760 They come up with this idea, for instance, that there are indigenous people who were moved out.

00:00:05.280 The Palestinians are indigenous people and they were moved out by the Jews.

00:00:08.540 You can do that if you want. Now let's do Britain.

00:00:12.000 You want to play the indigenous people, own the land first game and the other people should fuck off?

00:00:17.040 I do not want to live in a country with Hamas supporters. I want them deported. I want them chucked out.

00:00:22.700 Simple.

00:00:23.100 If there are people in the UK who are offended by the posters of missing Jewish children, they must leave.

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00:01:56.100 Douglas, you're back for the, I don't know which time, but we've had you on many times.

00:02:01.580 And I put it to you that there's good news and bad news.

00:02:04.380 The good news is that you were right.

00:02:06.480 The bad news is that you were right.

00:02:08.160 What have you made of the last three weeks?

00:02:13.640 Well, I suppose like all of us, it's a mixture of things.

00:02:18.000 First shock, then horror, then shock again, then horror.

00:02:22.960 Then disappointment and then rage, probably, in roughly that order.

00:02:30.760 Horror at what happened in Israel.

00:02:33.660 Shock.

00:02:34.600 Shock like everyone, this was able to happen.

00:02:38.160 Horror, the details of what happened.

00:02:41.200 Shock, then, at the response on the streets of cities like the one we're sitting in in London.

00:02:47.620 The fact that there were so many people who didn't even give it a day before they turned out on the streets of my city.

00:02:57.380 Supporting the people who'd done this act of terror.

00:03:00.000 And then, in the weeks since, increasing rage.

00:03:06.560 Rage that I have to share a country with these people.

00:03:09.280 And I think the thing that we've all had to come to terms with is how some people have just been so open about supporting an extremist Islamist terrorist group and also refusing to acknowledge it as such.

00:03:28.080 Well, before you answer, Douglas, one of the things that I've noticed in comments is people like, well, these are pro-Palestine marches.

00:03:35.680 And I think we have to be clear that what we're talking about is in the first two days prior to Israel responding in any way, there were people celebrating.

00:03:43.440 Yeah, the bodies of the dead hadn't even been found.

00:03:46.300 They were still warm in some cases.

00:03:47.720 Some people were still in the process of being massacred.

00:03:50.560 And even as that was still going on, people were already out on the streets of cities like London protesting against Israel.

00:04:00.080 And that was what it was.

00:04:02.860 It was straight away a protest against Israel.

00:04:05.040 And, you know, look, there are lots of fine delineations you can do about it, some of which are true and some are not.

00:04:13.660 You could claim that the people who've come out in recent weekends on Saturdays care about Palestinian lives.

00:04:19.640 I don't think they do.

00:04:21.380 I just don't think they do.

00:04:23.500 And I'll tell you one reason why is that nobody in the Middle East apart from Israelis cares about the Palestinians a jot.

00:04:30.760 I've traveled around the region.

00:04:31.960 And I've spoken to enough people, including leaders of other countries in the region, to know the Jordanians do not like the Palestinians at all.

00:04:39.600 They find them an unbelievable encumbrance.

00:04:42.260 And that's why they haven't opened their borders to the people in the West Bank who should effectively be in Jordan.

00:04:48.940 The Egyptians loathe the Palestinians.

00:04:52.320 The authorities of keeping the border between Egypt and Gaza closed because they hate the Palestinians.

00:04:58.100 I know people who were born in Gaza when Gaza was run, owned by Egypt.

00:05:04.380 If Egypt wanted to solve the Gaza problem, it could do so tomorrow by taking control of Gaza or allowing the people of Gaza to go into Egypt where they should be.

00:05:13.300 Nobody else in the region cares.

00:05:18.320 The Qataris host Hamas and fund Hamas, as well as, of course, pumping billions of pounds into countries like this one to make us deeply compromised.

00:05:30.080 But nobody in the region cares about the Palestinians.

00:05:32.300 Certainly nobody cares about them more than the Israelis, who go to incredible efforts to try to limit the deaths and the mistreatment of the Palestinians, even as the whole region, the world, has given them these people to look after.

00:05:50.480 Nobody really cares about the Palestinians.

00:05:52.200 And frankly, the idea that Muslims care about their brother Muslims is absolutely rubbish.

00:05:56.400 I think we've flattered much of the so-called Muslim street by even pretending this in recent years.

00:06:02.660 You know, hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been killed in Yemen in the last few years.

00:06:07.520 And there hasn't been a protest 1% of the size of what we've seen in recent days and weeks in the West.

00:06:14.440 Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been killed in Syria in the last over a decade since the civil war in Syria,

00:06:22.040 by Assad, by the Assad regime, by rival jihadist groups, by intra-religious sects, and much more.

00:06:30.440 And we haven't seen 1% of the people who turned out on the streets this day.

00:06:33.680 The idea that Muslims actually care about their fellow Muslims is insane.

00:06:38.040 They don't.

00:06:39.380 What they care about is Jews.

00:06:43.060 There is something at the very root of Islam and followers of the Muslim religion

00:06:48.120 who cannot bear any war in which Israel is fighting

00:06:54.780 and most of all loathes any war in which Israel is winning.

00:07:00.080 And you can see it.

00:07:01.220 It's at the absolute core of their being.

00:07:03.540 This is why they are on the streets of this city and others marching.

00:07:06.480 It's not because they love fellow Muslims.

00:07:09.020 It's because they hate Jews.

00:07:11.040 So you're saying there's something at the root of the religion.

00:07:13.680 Well, let's tease that apart.

00:07:14.840 What do you mean by that?

00:07:15.920 Well, there's two particular things worth mentioning.

00:07:19.640 One is, of course, that Muhammad, the founder of Islam,

00:07:22.640 himself beheaded, massacred many, many Jews.

00:07:26.720 Famously, there's one battle in particular.

00:07:30.180 And the Banu Quraish, it's a story you can find in the Quran and the Hadith.

00:07:36.480 And, of course, this is because the Jews would not accept the revelation of Muhammad,

00:07:40.680 such as it was.

00:07:41.980 And so they were seen within Islamic tradition as being one of the first people

00:07:46.800 who turned down the opportunity to join Islam.

00:07:50.080 And as a result, of course, Muhammad decapitated hundreds and hundreds of Jews.

00:07:56.040 So that's not a good start.

00:07:57.520 But there's a bigger thing, I think, within the Muslim world, which is worth mentioning,

00:08:03.540 which the late Bernard Lewis pointed out on a number of occasions,

00:08:08.040 which is the great problem within Islam when it comes to not just Judaism,

00:08:11.960 but the wider non-Islamic world is that the Muslim religion claims to be the last revelation from God to man,

00:08:22.500 which, as we all know, is a very large claim to make.

00:08:26.300 It says, there have been previous revelations, but this is the last and final one.

00:08:30.400 And what's more, God has given you a book, the Quran.

00:08:33.960 And the Quran is the one book you need.

00:08:36.800 The opening, sorry, no, here is the book wherein is no doubt,

00:08:41.520 which is quite a bold claim as well, I'd say.

00:08:43.620 But the claim that the foundation of Islam is here is the book wherein is no doubt,

00:08:51.520 and it's the only book you need.

00:08:53.080 And it's the final word from God that man will ever have.

00:08:56.600 Now, if you are the recipients of this book,

00:08:59.560 the people who end up either converting or being forced to convert to Islam,

00:09:03.980 and eventually the areas that Islam takes over by force,

00:09:06.800 if you are somebody who's brought up in that tradition,

00:09:08.960 you would think that being the recipient of the final revelation from God,

00:09:14.360 you would be in a just tip-top situation.

00:09:18.200 You know, you would imagine that, well, this is going very well.

00:09:20.740 We've got the final revelation from God.

00:09:22.240 What's not to like?

00:09:23.200 What's not on our side?

00:09:25.880 And then several things happen in the millennia since,

00:09:28.360 which is, first of all, many, many Muslims realize

00:09:32.100 that despite having the final revelation from God,

00:09:34.920 things don't seem to be going very well

00:09:36.860 until oil is discovered in certain parts of the Middle East,

00:09:41.780 most people live in total destitution.

00:09:44.840 The discoveries and enlightenments of Europe

00:09:47.400 largely pass the Muslim world by.

00:09:49.740 This shouldn't be exaggerated.

00:09:51.080 Certain parts of the Muslim world, of course,

00:09:53.680 give the Western world certain parts

00:09:55.380 of what becomes the Western European tradition.

00:09:57.460 So there were times of interplay.

00:09:59.580 There were times of mutual learning.

00:10:02.140 And now, of course, everyone looks back at them,

00:10:04.020 or many people look back at those times with them.

00:10:06.860 With nostalgia.

00:10:08.760 Nevertheless, in the main, the Muslim world cut itself off

00:10:11.420 from the rest of the world

00:10:12.360 and didn't care to learn from the rest of the world.

00:10:15.400 Didn't improve the economic conditions of its people.

00:10:19.060 Totally failed to create societies anything like as successful

00:10:24.040 as, for instance, European societies.

00:10:25.900 And therein, a question arises,

00:10:29.860 which is, if we are the recipients of the final revelation,

00:10:33.060 why is everything so awful where we live?

00:10:36.740 And then you have the additional thing,

00:10:38.500 which is, and how come the Jews return or re-establish the,

00:10:44.580 of course, many Jews are already living in the area that's now Israel,

00:10:49.140 but already lived there,

00:10:50.500 but many others come from other parts of the world,

00:10:52.060 including from the Middle Eastern countries

00:10:53.540 where they're chucked out by the governments in 48 and so on.

00:10:57.620 The Muslim world sees this tiny, tiny bit of land,

00:11:01.780 this tiny bit of land,

00:11:02.640 which, among other things,

00:11:03.680 is the only bit of the Middle East that doesn't have any oil.

00:11:06.000 And they make of it a much more successful country

00:11:12.340 than any of the countries around.

00:11:15.940 Now, if you create a Palestinian state,

00:11:18.380 you just have another failed Arab state,

00:11:20.340 another failed Muslim state,

00:11:21.780 to add to the more than 50 already failed Muslim and Arab states.

00:11:26.840 What is the explanation?

00:11:28.960 Jews who refused the Prophet's invitation to Islam

00:11:33.000 are still here, have this tiny bit of land,

00:11:37.460 and make all of these discoveries and other things

00:11:40.800 that show themselves to be so successful.

00:11:45.160 It's some kind of stab in the heart.

00:11:49.440 And instead of saying,

00:11:51.500 we're doing this wrong,

00:11:54.480 the thing is,

00:11:56.160 the Jews are doing something right,

00:11:58.400 and that must mean that they've rigged the game.

00:12:01.540 That's why they care.

00:12:03.000 Among other things.

00:12:04.260 And it leads to the deep pathology of anti-Semitism,

00:12:06.680 which has been largely eradicated in Europe among Europeans.

00:12:09.940 Not entirely, but largely.

00:12:11.360 There are still some bits of the far right you can find across Europe,

00:12:14.760 and occasionally in the UK,

00:12:16.040 where the sort of whiff of this noxious thing still emerges.

00:12:21.600 On the left, of course, it's much more.

00:12:24.800 It's much closer to the boat.

00:12:28.200 But principally anti-Semitism in our own day

00:12:30.420 of the kind that we hoped had ended with Hitler,

00:12:33.140 exists and indeed thrives in the Muslim world.

00:12:36.340 And the Muslim world is now in our world in Europe,

00:12:38.440 and so we have the Hitlerian horrors of anti-Semitism back.

00:12:43.960 Well, I have no doubt you're right, Douglas,

00:12:45.820 but one of the things that I think all of us have been struck by in recent weeks

00:12:49.440 is that the pro-Palestine cause,

00:12:54.040 let's put it in that language as they do,

00:12:57.220 is very popular among young people.

00:12:58.800 In fact, I'm sure you've seen the polls which show that

00:13:01.580 young people believe that Hamas attack was genocidal

00:13:05.580 and believe it was justified on the basis of what Israel is doing.

00:13:08.820 They are pro-genocide.

00:13:10.280 It seems to be.

00:13:11.760 And not all of those people are young Muslims in this country.

00:13:15.960 Some of them are not.

00:13:17.680 How did that happen?

00:13:19.240 Fantastic ignorance.

00:13:21.040 I mean, does anyone around this table,

00:13:23.520 anyone watching,

00:13:24.840 honestly think that we have a generation

00:13:26.400 that is well-educated?

00:13:29.360 Touche.

00:13:30.460 I mean, find me the teacher,

00:13:32.280 or find me the professor at any university

00:13:34.380 in the last 50 years

00:13:36.720 who would say to you,

00:13:37.620 every year the undergraduates come up,

00:13:39.600 the students come up,

00:13:40.520 and they just know more and more each year.

00:13:44.460 Maybe in certain sciences

00:13:45.880 you could say in a particular field.

00:13:48.280 You couldn't say it about the humanities at all.

00:13:50.460 You couldn't say it in most fields.

00:13:53.280 Certainly people don't come up every year

00:13:55.300 knowing more and more history.

00:13:57.920 The reason why the young people you talk about

00:14:01.160 believe this

00:14:01.660 is because they have been fed a form of indoctrination

00:14:05.180 and a particular version of history,

00:14:08.300 which effectively, as you both know,

00:14:11.460 maps on a very specific

00:14:13.260 and perverted version of American racial history

00:14:16.760 and maps it on to absolutely everything

00:14:18.940 in the rest of the world.

00:14:20.340 Add to that a particular form of anti-colonial history,

00:14:23.640 post-colonial history, whatever you want to call it,

00:14:26.420 which knows nothing of colonialism,

00:14:29.020 but knows only about the post-colonial world.

00:14:31.680 And you also see that that is mapped on to the Middle East.

00:14:34.740 So these people who talk about Israel

00:14:38.720 and probably couldn't point to it on a map,

00:14:41.520 they certainly don't know which river they mean

00:14:43.340 when they chant from the river to the sea.

00:14:45.300 They couldn't find that on a map, that's for sure.

00:14:48.320 From the river to the sea, of course I've chanted it.

00:14:50.260 Do I think that all Israelis should be pushed out of the country

00:14:53.840 or Jews or should be treated like this?

00:14:56.480 No.

00:14:57.500 Do you know which river and sea they're talking about, by the way?

00:15:00.260 I don't know the name.

00:15:01.200 The river?

00:15:02.740 I know the Mediterranean, it would be the sea,

00:15:04.900 but no, I wouldn't know the river, no.

00:15:06.880 Okay.

00:15:07.500 Yeah.

00:15:08.540 That's it, yeah.

00:15:09.400 Okay, perfect, thank you.

00:15:10.520 These people talk in what terms?

00:15:12.520 They basically fall into two groups.

00:15:15.360 They talk in terms of occupation, colonizers, apartheid.

00:15:24.060 This is the Americanized racial justice version of this

00:15:31.000 mapped onto the Middle East.

00:15:32.680 But the Israelis are colonizers, for instance.

00:15:35.260 And that they're indigenous peoples.

00:15:37.340 And the Palestinians are the indigenous peoples,

00:15:39.200 despite there being Jews in the land many years

00:15:42.680 before anyone even came up with the term Palestinian,

00:15:45.720 which is a disputed term anyway.

00:15:49.660 So they come up with this idea, for instance,

00:15:51.820 that there are indigenous people who were moved out.

00:15:54.580 The Palestinians are the indigenous people,

00:15:56.040 and they were moved out by the Jews, the Israelis, the Zionists.

00:15:59.100 And this version is, of course, a replay of that version of American history,

00:16:04.640 which is there were the idyllic, Edenic first populations of America,

00:16:08.580 the indigenous peoples, and then people from Europe came.

00:16:11.700 The wicked Spanish and Italians and Portuguese and the French

00:16:15.520 and even the British come and do their thing.

00:16:18.560 And so they just put this version of history onto the Middle East.

00:16:22.440 To those people, I would say, fine, you can do that if you want.

00:16:26.440 Now let's do Britain.

00:16:29.100 You want to play that game?

00:16:33.360 You sure?

00:16:36.000 You better not get the British started.

00:16:39.900 But that's one version.

00:16:40.780 Tell me more, Douglas. What do you mean?

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00:17:10.980 You want to play the indigenous people, own the land first game,

00:17:15.840 and the other people should fuck off?

00:17:20.840 Well, it's seven to 60 years of mass migration into the UK.

00:17:26.280 Who are the indigenous peoples of the UK?

00:17:28.580 People who've been here the longest.

00:17:30.520 Who are the settlers?

00:17:31.780 Who are the illegal settlers in Britain?

00:17:33.640 Oh, well, that would be the people who've arrived.

00:17:39.960 Does anyone want to go there?

00:17:41.660 Well, you see, Douglas, I think what you're saying is logically sound, as you know.

00:17:48.080 But I was very struck by something.

00:17:49.980 We haven't released this episode yet,

00:17:51.540 but we had a conversation with Michael Malice when we were in America.

00:17:54.140 Uh-huh.

00:17:54.400 And he said to me, Constantine, you've got to realize at some point

00:17:59.100 that these people do not use language to communicate.

00:18:02.820 They use language to manipulate.

00:18:04.360 Sure.

00:18:04.920 And so what you were saying makes sense,

00:18:08.120 except they would say, well, no, what do you mean?

00:18:10.460 You are straight, white, or not straight, white, or whatever you are, right?

00:18:14.680 I'm a blue-head, lesbian, non-binary, black woman.

00:18:18.320 That's not how they see you, Douglas.

00:18:20.420 Well, I self-identify.

00:18:22.180 Yes.

00:18:22.500 And the oppressed people are the people with more melanin in their skin.

00:18:29.060 Well, they should speak to the Yemeni Jews.

00:18:32.760 They should speak to the Ethiopian Jews.

00:18:37.440 They wouldn't even know what I was talking about.

00:18:39.100 No, they wouldn't.

00:18:39.520 They can look it up.

00:18:41.240 They can educate themselves.

00:18:42.960 The point I'm trying to make to you is we have a narrative.

00:18:46.400 In this country, certainly, the native population,

00:18:49.040 or certainly the longest living here in the native population,

00:18:53.560 they are the oppressors.

00:18:54.840 And you know that all of this is about this oppressor-oppressed dynamic.

00:18:58.020 So your argument in their world doesn't work.

00:19:00.620 Well, the girls in Rotherham and everyone everywhere else in Britain

00:19:04.040 who were raped by the thousands,

00:19:05.660 by Pakistani rape gangs in the last 20 years,

00:19:08.660 were not the oppressors, were they?

00:19:10.120 I would say that they were the oppressed.

00:19:15.600 But let me return to the second class of person

00:19:19.500 who is of the left, of the kind that I was mentioning,

00:19:22.620 the second class of critic of Israel.

00:19:26.700 And we learn a lot from this.

00:19:29.140 What are the other accusations that they put,

00:19:31.120 apart from the Americanized social justice versions,

00:19:34.040 what are the other versions of this that they put on it?

00:19:36.680 They say the Israelis are committing genocide,

00:19:40.940 that the Israelis are like the Nazis,

00:19:46.000 that the Israelis were as bad as Hitler.

00:19:48.900 Now, what is this?

00:19:51.620 First of all,

00:19:53.400 we have to hit on the head the idea

00:19:56.860 that the Israelis are committing genocide,

00:19:58.560 which is rife out there.

00:20:01.000 It would be the only genocide in history

00:20:04.440 in which the population massively expanded

00:20:06.860 during said alleged genocide.

00:20:09.700 The population of Gaza has shot up

00:20:11.840 in the last 18 years since Israel withdrew.

00:20:15.180 So you could say that they are

00:20:16.900 extremely unsuccessful genocidists,

00:20:20.180 or people who would like to commit genocide

00:20:23.020 but haven't managed to for some reason.

00:20:25.680 But none of the analysis of what is actually happening,

00:20:28.320 and I and anyone else who has traveled through the region widely

00:20:30.980 can tell you this.

00:20:32.100 It is nothing like, for instance,

00:20:33.880 what Bashar al-Assad has done to the Syrian people

00:20:36.020 over the last 13 years.

00:20:37.440 It's nothing like what has been happening

00:20:39.100 in Yemen in the last decade.

00:20:41.980 It is not anything approaching a genocide

00:20:44.380 that is happening in the West Bank or Gaza.

00:20:47.060 So why do they say it?

00:20:49.740 Second, why do they say like Hitler?

00:20:52.680 Third, why do they say like the Nazis?

00:20:54.640 These young people have been brought up

00:20:58.160 with only one bit of knowledge from history,

00:21:01.620 which is Nazis.

00:21:04.100 And if you only know about one thing from history,

00:21:06.420 it's likely that you will decide that

00:21:09.020 the whole of history and the whole of the current day

00:21:11.900 can fall into two groups of people

00:21:13.720 and be analyzed by the lens of this one thing.

00:21:16.820 Hitler, not Hitler.

00:21:18.500 Unfortunately, these young people are throwing out

00:21:23.240 the only nasty accusation they know,

00:21:27.280 and they are picking it up from people

00:21:29.660 who are handing them the nastiest thing

00:21:31.760 that they could say.

00:21:32.980 Why do I say that?

00:21:35.200 They are picking up from mainly Muslim pro-Palestinian voices

00:21:41.460 and pro-Hammaz voices and others,

00:21:43.280 these allegations which come from the Muslim world

00:21:47.220 against the Jewish state

00:21:48.500 because the Muslim world knows

00:21:50.220 how much it will wound the Jews.

00:21:53.180 That's why they say that.

00:21:55.420 They say the Jews are just like the Nazis

00:21:59.460 because they know how much that would hurt any Jew.

00:22:03.000 Now, these young people who pick up these arguments,

00:22:05.440 knowingly or otherwise,

00:22:07.180 are repeating this slur on the Jewish people,

00:22:11.060 and some of them will know how much that hurts the Jews

00:22:14.500 and will not mind.

00:22:16.760 Some of them may not know

00:22:17.980 how much that hurts the Jewish people.

00:22:20.480 Why do these so-called pro-Palestinian peoples

00:22:24.520 keep saying that it's just like the Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza?

00:22:28.680 Why choose the Warsaw Ghetto?

00:22:30.400 Why not choose something not involving Jews?

00:22:32.500 Why not choose anything else from the history of the world?

00:22:35.900 First of all, by the way,

00:22:36.760 it's not a very good comparison, is it?

00:22:38.220 Because when people managed to escape briefly

00:22:40.800 from the Warsaw Ghetto,

00:22:42.100 their first thing was not to run out

00:22:43.960 and behead the first child they could find.

00:22:48.060 But park that for a moment.

00:22:49.580 Why do they choose the Warsaw Ghetto?

00:22:51.720 Because they want to hurt Jews.

00:22:54.220 They want to hurt them as deeply as they can.

00:22:57.080 Here's the other thing.

00:22:58.600 If you have this great mistake of thinking

00:23:01.200 that the whole world can be divided into Hitler and not Hitler,

00:23:04.560 these kids, and kids they are,

00:23:09.240 are going to discover if they have their way

00:23:11.980 that they were Hitler.

00:23:14.760 Why do I say that?

00:23:16.720 Because if their chant came true,

00:23:19.080 and from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea,

00:23:23.580 Palestine,

00:23:25.300 which is to say a state which is Judenrein,

00:23:28.880 because Mahmoud Abbas,

00:23:31.040 the head of the Palestinian Authority,

00:23:32.260 as well as Hamas,

00:23:33.780 who of course have been running,

00:23:35.940 if you can call it at that,

00:23:37.040 the Gaza for the last 13 years,

00:23:39.220 since they killed the Palestinian Authority representatives

00:23:41.580 in Gaza.

00:23:43.620 Both Mahmoud Abbas,

00:23:45.140 the head of the allegedly moderate PA,

00:23:47.860 and Hamas,

00:23:49.520 both agree that Palestine must be Jew-free.

00:23:52.300 There is no scenario in the heads of the Palestinian Authority

00:23:56.920 or of Hamas

00:23:57.860 in which one Jew is allowed to live in the Palestinian state.

00:24:02.780 So if from the river to the sea

00:24:04.940 a Palestinian state is created,

00:24:07.520 it will mean either the eradication of all Jews in Israel

00:24:12.240 or the displacement of all Jews in Israel,

00:24:16.780 which means carting out every Jew from their historic homeland

00:24:20.940 and either killing them or sending them somewhere else.

00:24:25.060 And that would be done in the name of being anti-Nazi.

00:24:31.040 These people have a huge problem coming their way

00:24:35.220 if they get their way.

00:24:38.280 They're ignorant as hell,

00:24:40.380 and they will have to hope to God

00:24:43.040 that they never get what they say they want.

00:24:45.420 And, Douglas, this is one of the things

00:24:48.960 that has really struck me

00:24:51.720 because the Israel-Palestine issue,

00:24:53.680 we've had people on the show to talk about it,

00:24:56.080 but it's honestly not something

00:24:58.480 that I have really paid a huge amount of attention to.

00:25:02.240 I say that with some regret now, but nonetheless.

00:25:05.660 What has struck me is

00:25:06.960 I don't understand the double standards

00:25:10.420 that seem to apply to Israel.

00:25:11.860 I'd never really paid attention to it,

00:25:13.400 and therefore I haven't...

00:25:14.520 But I don't understand.

00:25:16.080 I mean, we're talking now about proportionality.

00:25:22.160 They always do, as long as it involves Israel.

00:25:25.300 And I haven't understood what that means exactly

00:25:27.620 because I don't think Israel would want to go into Gaza

00:25:31.800 and butcher innocent civilians in the way that Hamas did.

00:25:37.100 And also, in a war, proportionality is moronic.

00:25:40.300 You're trying to win.

00:25:41.620 Yeah, of course.

00:25:42.040 So why are people calling for proportionality?

00:25:44.580 Because they want Israel to lose.

00:25:46.920 That's all.

00:25:47.740 No, the international community always does this.

00:25:52.340 There's, you know, not much love lost

00:25:54.540 across much of the world for Israel

00:25:56.180 for the same reasons as I described

00:25:58.320 much of the Muslim world

00:25:59.300 not having much love for Israel.

00:26:02.380 Becomes the whipping boy,

00:26:03.540 the scapegoat of the international community.

00:26:05.340 You know, the joke that the UN

00:26:07.280 should have a football team.

00:26:08.640 Well, who would they play?

00:26:09.920 Israel, obviously.

00:26:10.740 There was a vote at the UN the other day,

00:26:15.880 a few days ago,

00:26:18.560 which simply called for one thing,

00:26:21.040 which was the international condemnation

00:26:23.000 of the Hamas massacres of the 7th of October.

00:26:25.480 It didn't pass.

00:26:28.860 It didn't pass.

00:26:32.060 The UN couldn't bring itself to vote

00:26:35.060 to condemn the massacre of the 7th of October.

00:26:37.940 And when it was announced in the hall

00:26:39.780 that it hadn't passed,

00:26:42.620 there was much whooping and clapping.

00:26:44.260 Now, we've seen this before, of course.

00:26:48.220 In 1975, there was a resolution

00:26:50.340 at the United Nations in New York

00:26:52.280 that Zionism is racism.

00:26:56.880 One of those proposing this motion

00:27:00.260 was Idi Amin.

00:27:03.140 Fine, upstanding gentleman.

00:27:04.720 A good guy.

00:27:05.140 And again,

00:27:07.460 people watching who don't know

00:27:08.900 who Idi Amin is,

00:27:11.120 educate yourself.

00:27:14.120 And the evening

00:27:15.380 that the vote was put to the UN,

00:27:18.960 a drinks reception was held

00:27:20.640 at the United Nations

00:27:21.480 for those voting

00:27:22.300 that Zionism was racism.

00:27:23.640 And who was hosting the drinks party?

00:27:25.740 Kurt Waldheim.

00:27:27.520 Again,

00:27:28.220 people can look him up.

00:27:29.880 Kurt Waldheim,

00:27:31.000 the former Chancellor of Austria,

00:27:33.040 he was a member

00:27:35.100 of an SS battalion

00:27:36.800 in World War II.

00:27:39.760 So,

00:27:41.080 the United Nations

00:27:42.000 has been here before.

00:27:43.460 Plenty of times.

00:27:44.860 The United Nations

00:27:45.500 can never bring itself

00:27:46.400 to condemn anything

00:27:47.440 unless it involves Israel.

00:27:50.060 And that is a pathology

00:27:51.180 of the United Nations.

00:27:52.620 But we have seen

00:27:53.420 all of this before.

00:27:54.740 many, many times.

00:27:57.720 Too many times to count.

00:27:59.980 Ever since

00:28:00.760 the foundation of the state.

00:28:02.700 And that comes

00:28:03.260 to one of the simple

00:28:04.020 problems of,

00:28:05.640 and I'm sorry,

00:28:06.440 but we have to bring it up,

00:28:07.720 anti-Semitism.

00:28:09.920 One of the simple problems

00:28:10.780 about anti-Semitism is,

00:28:12.160 as everybody

00:28:12.780 who knows about it knows,

00:28:14.020 is that it's

00:28:14.520 a shape-shifting virus.

00:28:16.740 At one point

00:28:17.740 in the history of Europe,

00:28:19.060 in the history

00:28:19.360 of our own country,

00:28:20.220 the Jews were hated

00:28:20.920 because they were poor

00:28:23.500 and then they were hated

00:28:25.040 because they were rich.

00:28:26.920 They were hated

00:28:27.680 for not integrating

00:28:28.640 and then they were hated

00:28:29.480 for integrating.

00:28:30.920 In the era

00:28:31.780 where you could hate people

00:28:32.660 for their religion,

00:28:33.680 they were hated

00:28:34.120 for their religion.

00:28:35.320 Then when that

00:28:36.040 became impossible in Europe,

00:28:37.640 you couldn't hate people

00:28:38.320 for their religion,

00:28:38.980 they were hated

00:28:39.380 for their race.

00:28:40.740 Then at a particular point

00:28:41.620 in Europe,

00:28:42.040 we discovered we couldn't

00:28:42.860 hate people

00:28:43.200 for their race anymore.

00:28:44.460 So what did we hate people

00:28:45.580 for if they were Jewish?

00:28:47.140 We hated them

00:28:47.560 for being stateless.

00:28:49.360 Then the Jewish people

00:28:50.160 got a state

00:28:50.840 and they were hated

00:28:51.840 for having a state.

00:28:53.600 Now you cannot tell me

00:28:54.860 in this situation

00:28:55.780 that there's a coincidence here.

00:28:59.340 It is not a coincidence

00:29:00.820 that every way you do it,

00:29:03.440 it ends up like that.

00:29:05.540 And great figures,

00:29:06.540 including somebody

00:29:07.700 I've quoted a lot

00:29:08.580 in recent days and weeks,

00:29:10.680 Vasily Grossman,

00:29:11.600 the great Russian novelist,

00:29:13.540 the author of Life and Fate,

00:29:14.600 among other works.

00:29:15.480 And everything flows.

00:29:16.800 He said everything,

00:29:18.080 everything comes from this.

00:29:19.200 And of course,

00:29:20.400 the great thing

00:29:21.160 that Grossman said,

00:29:21.960 the heart of his great novel

00:29:24.020 in those few pages

00:29:25.400 where he writes

00:29:26.040 about anti-Semitism,

00:29:27.260 about the dark heart

00:29:28.320 of the 20th century,

00:29:30.000 as he goes from Stalingrad

00:29:31.640 to Treblinka,

00:29:33.020 the great pages

00:29:34.180 in which Grossman

00:29:34.880 takes the time out

00:29:36.160 to talk about anti-Semitism

00:29:38.020 in the midnight

00:29:38.820 of the 20th century.

00:29:40.620 He says, of course,

00:29:41.480 that,

00:29:42.800 he says some of what

00:29:44.040 I've just said

00:29:44.580 about anti-Semitism

00:29:46.520 being a shape-shifting virus,

00:29:47.860 because, of course,

00:29:48.760 Hitler had it,

00:29:49.420 it's rather well known,

00:29:51.440 but Stalin ended up

00:29:53.240 with it as well.

00:29:53.900 I mean,

00:29:54.240 it goes every direction,

00:29:56.200 every way.

00:29:57.380 But as Grossman greatly says,

00:30:01.200 the thing about it

00:30:01.980 is that it tells you

00:30:04.700 about the person

00:30:05.420 who suffers from it,

00:30:06.380 not about the Jews.

00:30:08.140 He says,

00:30:09.420 tell me what you accuse

00:30:10.960 the Jews of.

00:30:11.920 I'll tell you

00:30:12.560 what you're guilty of.

00:30:13.540 People who hate the Jews

00:30:17.460 for being religious

00:30:18.440 have religious problems

00:30:19.620 themselves.

00:30:20.860 People who hate

00:30:21.600 the fact that Jews

00:30:23.200 have a state

00:30:23.920 that they're willing

00:30:24.500 to defend

00:30:25.160 have a problem

00:30:26.380 with defending

00:30:26.980 their own state

00:30:27.700 themselves,

00:30:28.440 and much,

00:30:29.280 much more,

00:30:30.120 on and on and on.

00:30:31.900 The thing that,

00:30:33.140 and I've made this point

00:30:34.160 in previous interviews,

00:30:35.740 so I have a grandfather

00:30:36.740 originally from Lebanon,

00:30:39.080 Coptic Christian,

00:30:40.040 but he was

00:30:40.540 an anti-Semite.

00:30:41.900 And people don't understand,

00:30:44.060 when people comment

00:30:44.920 in the West,

00:30:45.580 they don't understand

00:30:46.620 the depths of hatred

00:30:47.720 that exists in that region.

00:30:49.680 And when I say

00:30:50.620 the word hatred,

00:30:51.480 I mean it in its

00:30:52.260 true sense of the word.

00:30:53.880 People in the West,

00:30:54.980 they don't understand

00:30:56.100 that emotion

00:30:56.840 in the way

00:30:58.420 that it's expressed

00:30:59.340 over there.

00:31:00.120 They don't anymore.

00:31:01.260 They could do

00:31:01.920 in the years to come,

00:31:03.080 yeah.

00:31:04.000 And to the point

00:31:05.380 that you then have

00:31:06.200 people opining about it,

00:31:08.160 and I just look at them

00:31:09.360 and I go,

00:31:10.160 you have no idea

00:31:11.400 of what you were

00:31:12.020 talking about.

00:31:12.820 You have no idea,

00:31:13.780 you have no concept.

00:31:15.220 Yeah.

00:31:15.600 You're applying

00:31:16.120 a Western lens

00:31:17.180 to judge a problem

00:31:18.460 or an issue

00:31:19.600 which is not Western.

00:31:23.240 Yeah,

00:31:23.620 they,

00:31:24.420 well,

00:31:26.080 Israel in the era

00:31:27.340 that we've grown up,

00:31:29.040 Israel suffers

00:31:29.900 from being able

00:31:31.560 to protect itself.

00:31:32.840 You know.

00:31:34.920 Something that Europeans

00:31:36.000 will not forgive it for.

00:31:38.480 And many people

00:31:39.580 in the West

00:31:39.980 will not forgive it for.

00:31:40.920 By the way,

00:31:42.440 there's a fascinating

00:31:43.980 thing in that

00:31:44.720 because,

00:31:45.200 of course,

00:31:45.520 I mean,

00:31:45.740 Israelis really do

00:31:47.060 try to protect

00:31:48.540 their borders,

00:31:49.920 really do take it

00:31:50.800 seriously

00:31:51.140 when their borders

00:31:51.800 are made porous

00:31:54.300 and they really do

00:31:56.920 try to adhere

00:31:57.540 as a nation.

00:31:58.460 They try to defend

00:31:59.060 themselves as a nation.

00:32:00.020 They,

00:32:00.200 of course,

00:32:00.400 have the draft

00:32:01.180 so everybody

00:32:01.880 is involved

00:32:02.960 in the defense

00:32:03.560 of the nation.

00:32:04.800 And this is all

00:32:05.620 stuff that Europeans

00:32:06.420 in particular

00:32:07.160 think is in the past.

00:32:09.160 we're past borders,

00:32:11.780 we're past defense,

00:32:13.400 we're past armies,

00:32:14.560 you know.

00:32:15.240 The MOD

00:32:15.860 and the Minister

00:32:17.100 of Defense

00:32:17.580 in the UK

00:32:18.400 effectively operates

00:32:20.100 as an NGO.

00:32:21.020 And it does things

00:32:24.800 like,

00:32:25.220 you know,

00:32:25.480 it's a bit like

00:32:26.100 that Hillary Clinton

00:32:27.040 thing where she said

00:32:28.360 a little while ago

00:32:28.900 the first victims

00:32:29.700 of war are women.

00:32:32.680 We're quite sure

00:32:33.740 about that.

00:32:34.380 I think they are,

00:32:36.440 of course,

00:32:36.700 victims of war.

00:32:37.420 It tends to be

00:32:37.760 the first victims

00:32:38.380 of war are the men

00:32:39.100 who are fighting

00:32:39.660 and dying.

00:32:40.240 But anyway,

00:32:41.240 there's a bit

00:32:41.720 of the MOD

00:32:42.200 currently that's

00:32:43.000 obsessed with the

00:32:43.760 issue of women

00:32:44.320 in conflict.

00:32:45.660 The British Armed Forces,

00:32:46.840 if you remember,

00:32:47.760 I mean,

00:32:48.020 basically they have

00:32:48.580 a recruitment halt

00:32:49.960 on white men

00:32:50.920 at the moment

00:32:51.440 because they have

00:32:52.120 certain race

00:32:52.820 and gender

00:32:53.400 quotas they've got

00:32:55.800 to get to

00:32:56.440 by 2030,

00:32:57.580 which means

00:32:57.960 that you can only

00:32:58.420 do it if you

00:32:59.140 force a lot of

00:33:00.540 women into roles

00:33:01.640 in the front line

00:33:02.260 they don't always want

00:33:03.360 and stop white men

00:33:06.960 signing up.

00:33:07.600 So we are in a

00:33:08.600 conflict,

00:33:08.960 Britain,

00:33:09.180 just totally

00:33:10.020 confused about

00:33:12.420 all of this.

00:33:13.260 We don't have

00:33:13.800 serious people.

00:33:15.060 Well,

00:33:15.320 not very many

00:33:15.920 serious people

00:33:16.560 and haven't had

00:33:17.060 for some time.

00:33:18.360 And the Israelis

00:33:18.960 do have to be

00:33:19.860 serious.

00:33:20.840 And as we were

00:33:21.660 reminded on the

00:33:23.040 7th of October,

00:33:24.060 you know,

00:33:24.280 when things go wrong

00:33:25.180 and something went

00:33:26.020 very,

00:33:26.380 many,

00:33:26.660 many things went

00:33:27.240 very badly wrong,

00:33:28.620 but they have

00:33:29.660 to respond.

00:33:31.000 I mean,

00:33:31.200 what did we do

00:33:31.960 in Britain

00:33:32.380 when 23 young

00:33:33.800 women were blown

00:33:34.400 up in a suicide

00:33:36.160 bombing at the

00:33:36.700 Manchester Arena?

00:33:38.200 We crooned

00:33:39.280 don't look back

00:33:40.300 and were all

00:33:40.740 diverted by the

00:33:41.620 media who told us

00:33:42.660 don't look back

00:33:43.560 in anger.

00:33:44.640 So the idea

00:33:45.560 that we know

00:33:47.520 what to do

00:33:48.120 in this situation

00:33:48.760 is nonsense.

00:33:49.380 We see the Israelis

00:33:50.240 struggling through

00:33:50.980 things that we

00:33:51.560 struggled through

00:33:52.160 in history,

00:33:52.820 and certain numbers

00:33:53.820 of people dislike

00:33:54.720 them for having

00:33:55.220 to struggle

00:33:55.660 through that still.

00:33:56.940 Didn't you know

00:33:57.500 we're in this era

00:33:58.180 where we just

00:33:58.700 sing Kumbaya

00:33:59.560 after we're

00:34:00.340 attacked?

00:34:00.800 And the one

00:34:02.980 that always stood

00:34:03.600 out for me,

00:34:04.400 actually even more

00:34:05.540 so than the

00:34:06.040 Manchester bombings

00:34:06.960 and that act

00:34:07.540 of terrorism,

00:34:08.240 was the murder

00:34:08.880 of Sir David Amos.

00:34:09.980 Oh yeah,

00:34:10.660 well that was

00:34:11.040 just memory

00:34:11.480 hold by his

00:34:12.040 own colleagues

00:34:12.560 in the most

00:34:13.100 shameless way.

00:34:14.900 Killed by a

00:34:16.020 jihadist who

00:34:16.660 sat beside his

00:34:17.640 body,

00:34:19.080 very pleased

00:34:20.600 with his work.

00:34:22.260 And if you

00:34:23.020 listened to the

00:34:24.860 debate in the

00:34:25.760 house the next

00:34:26.760 day or a couple

00:34:27.240 of days later,

00:34:27.940 in memory of

00:34:28.960 Sir David Amos,

00:34:30.060 who was killed

00:34:30.700 what, just over

00:34:31.240 two years ago?

00:34:32.800 If you listened

00:34:33.480 to the debate

00:34:33.940 in the house,

00:34:34.480 you'd have thought

00:34:34.820 he died of

00:34:35.300 natural causes.

00:34:37.360 I think his

00:34:38.040 colleagues behaved

00:34:38.760 shamefully.

00:34:39.480 They all said

00:34:39.940 how much they

00:34:40.480 wanted to pay

00:34:40.940 tribute to his

00:34:41.500 memory.

00:34:41.920 Well, they

00:34:42.400 didn't.

00:34:43.760 They didn't.

00:34:45.620 They betrayed

00:34:46.300 his memory.

00:34:48.160 He was killed

00:34:48.780 by somebody who

00:34:49.600 was an Islamic

00:34:50.320 extremist,

00:34:51.340 supremacist,

00:34:52.280 jihadist,

00:34:52.940 call him what

00:34:53.400 you want.

00:34:54.380 The whole of

00:34:55.340 the House of

00:34:55.820 Commons covered

00:34:56.820 for that.

00:34:57.940 Now, some

00:34:58.320 people said

00:34:58.840 to me,

00:34:59.180 Douglas, you

00:34:59.760 cannot point

00:35:00.520 this out.

00:35:01.160 You might

00:35:01.540 jeopardize the

00:35:02.200 trial.

00:35:02.780 The reason

00:35:03.280 they're not

00:35:03.620 saying this

00:35:04.360 is because

00:35:05.000 they don't

00:35:05.600 want to say

00:35:05.940 these things

00:35:06.400 ahead of the

00:35:06.880 trial.

00:35:07.260 This man

00:35:07.580 is simply

00:35:07.940 the suspect.

00:35:08.700 The one

00:35:08.980 you found

00:35:09.420 covered in

00:35:10.220 Sir David's

00:35:10.740 blood beside

00:35:11.680 the body.

00:35:12.120 Yes, of course,

00:35:12.640 he's still a

00:35:13.040 suspect.

00:35:13.500 He mustn't

00:35:14.120 prejudge

00:35:14.740 from the

00:35:15.020 motives.

00:35:15.640 We'll put

00:35:16.620 that discussion

00:35:17.540 off for another

00:35:18.200 time.

00:35:18.700 When is the

00:35:19.180 other time?

00:35:19.640 The other time

00:35:20.160 is after the

00:35:20.760 sentencing.

00:35:21.380 Oh, good,

00:35:21.780 I look forward

00:35:22.300 to it.

00:35:23.800 After the

00:35:24.320 sentencing.

00:35:27.940 In this

00:35:29.240 country,

00:35:29.640 in Britain,

00:35:30.100 we can't

00:35:30.700 seem to

00:35:31.660 summon up

00:35:32.120 the guts

00:35:32.700 to talk

00:35:34.200 about this

00:35:34.720 any time.

00:35:35.720 Any time.

00:35:36.640 And you

00:35:37.140 know why?

00:35:38.580 Because no

00:35:39.000 one knows

00:35:39.320 what to do.

00:35:40.940 I would

00:35:41.560 say it's

00:35:41.940 because they're

00:35:42.420 scared,

00:35:42.840 Douglas,

00:35:43.120 if I'm

00:35:43.440 honest.

00:35:43.760 They're

00:35:43.960 terrified.

00:35:44.600 Because part

00:35:45.720 of them

00:35:46.020 are thinking

00:35:46.560 and they

00:35:47.220 look at

00:35:47.660 Sir David.

00:35:48.500 And I

00:35:48.720 actually met

00:35:49.440 Sir David.

00:35:49.820 He was a

00:35:50.040 wonderful man.

00:35:50.940 Lovely man.

00:35:52.240 An English

00:35:52.940 eccentric in

00:35:53.780 the best

00:35:54.180 sense of

00:35:54.940 the word.

00:35:56.180 But they're

00:35:56.620 looking at

00:35:57.060 him and

00:35:57.600 they've

00:35:57.780 sat down

00:35:58.320 and they've

00:35:58.600 eaten lunch

00:35:59.100 with him

00:35:59.500 and they've

00:36:00.160 drunk with

00:36:00.740 him and

00:36:01.100 they think,

00:36:02.040 shit,

00:36:02.620 that could

00:36:02.960 be me.

00:36:03.500 Well,

00:36:03.900 you know

00:36:04.120 what?

00:36:04.400 Joe Cox

00:36:04.960 was also

00:36:05.500 killed by

00:36:06.100 an extremist.

00:36:07.820 A lone

00:36:08.460 wolf madman

00:36:09.260 who seems

00:36:10.660 to have been

00:36:11.040 inspired by

00:36:11.780 some kind

00:36:12.280 of neo-Nazi

00:36:13.120 ideology and

00:36:14.300 one of

00:36:16.160 these kind

00:36:16.520 of loser

00:36:17.360 fringe of

00:36:19.780 the most

00:36:20.040 fringe people.

00:36:22.400 And I

00:36:23.120 don't remember

00:36:24.040 after Joe

00:36:24.920 Cox's murder

00:36:25.940 people saying

00:36:27.200 let's not

00:36:28.000 pre-judge

00:36:29.000 why the

00:36:29.400 murderer did

00:36:30.040 it or

00:36:30.840 let's not

00:36:31.360 spread any

00:36:31.900 blame around.

00:36:33.040 I don't

00:36:33.320 remember that.

00:36:34.080 I miss that.

00:36:35.400 There was an

00:36:35.760 awful lot of

00:36:36.380 spreading of

00:36:36.860 blame around.

00:36:37.440 They tried to

00:36:37.960 blame everybody

00:36:38.920 who was about

00:36:39.480 to vote

00:36:39.860 Brexit for

00:36:41.620 the murder.

00:36:42.660 They wanted

00:36:43.040 to blame the

00:36:43.700 whole Leave

00:36:44.880 EU campaign

00:36:45.840 for the

00:36:46.380 murder.

00:36:47.880 So I didn't

00:36:48.340 see any lack

00:36:49.180 of pre-judging

00:36:50.120 there.

00:36:50.340 but I

00:36:50.640 also didn't

00:36:52.440 notice that

00:36:53.700 MPs were

00:36:54.920 quiet in

00:36:55.720 identifying the

00:36:56.500 ideology of

00:36:57.500 the man who

00:36:58.040 had murdered

00:36:58.580 their colleague.

00:37:00.680 So why

00:37:02.120 did they not

00:37:02.900 fear gangs

00:37:05.220 of neo-Nazi

00:37:06.560 men coming

00:37:07.380 around and

00:37:08.060 stabbing and

00:37:09.040 decapitating

00:37:09.840 MPs in the

00:37:10.720 name of

00:37:11.120 neo-Nazism?

00:37:12.400 Because it's

00:37:13.500 not a very

00:37:14.220 big thing in

00:37:15.220 Britain.

00:37:16.020 Despite the

00:37:16.980 bogeyman

00:37:17.680 holding out of

00:37:18.940 neo-Nazis as

00:37:19.700 always being

00:37:20.180 about to

00:37:20.580 take over.

00:37:21.240 Don't forget

00:37:21.640 of course we

00:37:22.060 live in a

00:37:22.360 country where

00:37:22.860 the left,

00:37:24.480 the Guardian

00:37:25.100 and others

00:37:25.520 repeatedly

00:37:26.380 describe

00:37:27.100 Suella

00:37:27.500 Braverman

00:37:28.060 as far

00:37:28.600 right.

00:37:31.220 So although

00:37:32.000 they use

00:37:32.640 that language

00:37:33.200 they clearly

00:37:33.720 don't believe

00:37:34.460 it or mean

00:37:35.120 it because

00:37:35.780 they would

00:37:36.100 be fearful.

00:37:37.120 I mean I

00:37:37.360 don't doubt

00:37:37.860 of course many

00:37:38.420 MPs and

00:37:38.880 many I've

00:37:39.160 spoken to

00:37:39.560 from the

00:37:39.780 Labour Party

00:37:40.180 and elsewhere

00:37:40.460 were very

00:37:41.060 very shocked

00:37:41.700 by Joe

00:37:42.040 Cox's

00:37:42.420 murder.

00:37:43.240 And it

00:37:43.520 was deeply

00:37:44.080 deeply

00:37:44.420 shocking.

00:37:45.540 But I

00:37:45.900 think that

00:37:46.260 most people

00:37:46.800 have recognised

00:37:47.380 there are

00:37:47.720 not very

00:37:48.420 many people

00:37:49.200 in Britain

00:37:49.520 actually

00:37:50.240 likely to

00:37:51.620 follow.

00:37:52.920 I hope

00:37:53.380 that murder

00:37:55.540 of Joe

00:37:55.860 Cox is an

00:37:56.380 extreme

00:37:57.000 mad ideology.

00:37:58.740 There was

00:37:59.100 certainly nobody

00:37:59.860 in the country

00:38:00.840 who would

00:38:01.260 cover for

00:38:01.860 him or

00:38:02.860 say well

00:38:03.420 he had a

00:38:03.940 point or

00:38:04.440 anything like

00:38:04.920 that.

00:38:05.120 Nobody

00:38:05.320 wanted to

00:38:05.740 be near

00:38:06.140 that filth.

00:38:08.800 But

00:38:09.320 why do

00:38:11.220 they not

00:38:11.580 identify it

00:38:12.280 in this

00:38:12.640 case and

00:38:13.080 why are

00:38:13.340 they fearful

00:38:13.760 in this

00:38:14.360 case?

00:38:14.880 because they

00:38:16.440 know that

00:38:16.780 the problem

00:38:17.260 exists and

00:38:18.120 is bigger

00:38:18.500 than they

00:38:18.800 want to

00:38:19.180 admit.

00:38:21.160 Now

00:38:21.600 there's a

00:38:22.940 problem.

00:38:25.340 We'll be

00:38:25.940 back with

00:38:26.320 our guest

00:38:26.800 in a minute

00:38:27.300 but first

00:38:28.100 we want to

00:38:28.620 take a

00:38:28.960 moment to

00:38:29.380 talk about

00:38:29.800 our

00:38:29.960 partners

00:38:30.420 GiveSendGo.

00:38:31.480 We've met

00:38:48.560 the people

00:38:48.960 at GiveSendGo

00:38:49.780 and we can

00:38:50.360 tell you that

00:38:50.940 they're absolutely

00:38:51.860 aligned with

00:38:52.620 trigonometry on

00:38:53.720 our approach to

00:38:54.500 free speech.

00:38:55.460 They don't just

00:38:55.920 talk the talk

00:38:56.720 they walk the

00:38:57.600 walk unlike

00:38:58.360 other big tech

00:38:59.220 companies.

00:39:00.280 They like us

00:39:01.120 believe that

00:39:01.880 with openness

00:39:02.620 and honesty

00:39:03.440 will create

00:39:04.040 more understanding

00:39:05.000 and ultimately

00:39:05.980 more harmony

00:39:06.660 in the world.

00:39:07.580 GiveSendGo

00:39:08.060 is absolutely

00:39:08.880 free to use.

00:39:10.080 With other

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00:39:11.380 you'll pay

00:39:11.820 between 5 and

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00:39:14.640 GiveSendGo

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00:39:17.900 They believe

00:39:18.460 you should be

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00:39:21.320 On GiveSendGo

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00:39:24.380 for short or

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00:39:29.160 Australia or

00:39:30.200 anywhere in

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00:39:31.600 GiveSendGo

00:39:32.100 supports freedom

00:39:32.980 of speech.

00:39:33.780 They won't

00:39:34.200 cave to the

00:39:34.780 mob and

00:39:35.320 that's why

00:39:35.780 we are proud

00:39:36.440 to partner

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00:39:37.960 Starting a

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00:39:47.060 important to

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00:39:48.440 support the

00:39:49.000 people who

00:39:49.740 support freedom.

00:39:50.920 Now back

00:39:52.040 to the

00:39:52.360 interview.

00:39:54.680 I agree with

00:39:55.600 you.

00:39:56.140 I also agree

00:39:56.740 with Francis

00:39:57.160 but I agree

00:39:57.740 with you.

00:39:58.100 The reason

00:39:58.420 people don't

00:39:59.340 want to say

00:40:00.040 anything is

00:40:00.740 they don't

00:40:01.020 know what

00:40:01.280 to do.

00:40:02.920 And I've

00:40:04.260 spent the

00:40:04.760 last three

00:40:05.240 weeks,

00:40:05.820 I said it

00:40:06.340 in the

00:40:06.660 speech that

00:40:07.420 I gave

00:40:07.840 Iraq,

00:40:09.100 in a

00:40:09.740 pretty dark

00:40:10.340 place because

00:40:11.280 I like to

00:40:12.920 think I'm a

00:40:13.340 pretty clever

00:40:13.780 guy.

00:40:14.600 I talk to

00:40:15.280 people like

00:40:15.720 you who are

00:40:16.180 way more

00:40:16.580 clever than

00:40:17.200 me and

00:40:18.060 to many

00:40:18.360 others and

00:40:19.640 I say to

00:40:20.120 them the

00:40:20.380 same thing.

00:40:20.840 How does

00:40:21.200 this get

00:40:21.520 fixed?

00:40:21.960 Because what

00:40:22.460 I see is

00:40:23.340 we have an

00:40:24.220 open border

00:40:24.780 and there

00:40:28.120 is despite

00:40:29.140 the fact

00:40:29.600 there was a

00:40:30.020 poll done

00:40:30.400 in recent

00:40:30.820 weeks which

00:40:32.240 showed that

00:40:32.620 92% of

00:40:33.740 conservative

00:40:34.200 voters and

00:40:35.460 70% of

00:40:36.480 labor voters

00:40:37.120 which was

00:40:37.500 higher than

00:40:37.880 I expected

00:40:38.420 support deporting

00:40:40.100 people who

00:40:40.540 glorify terrorism.

00:40:42.560 And yet we

00:40:43.560 sit here,

00:40:44.520 all three of

00:40:45.240 us,

00:40:45.840 knowing full

00:40:46.540 well,

00:40:47.060 as everybody

00:40:47.600 watching this

00:40:48.200 does,

00:40:48.980 that despite

00:40:49.460 the fact that

00:40:50.260 we have a

00:40:51.160 quote-unquote

00:40:51.840 far-right

00:40:52.480 government,

00:40:53.700 that is

00:40:54.400 never ever

00:40:54.900 going to

00:40:55.160 happen.

00:40:56.540 Well,

00:40:56.960 it might not

00:40:57.260 happen under

00:40:57.800 this government

00:40:58.440 but it'll

00:40:58.760 happen one

00:40:59.260 to one in

00:40:59.660 the future.

00:41:01.960 The first

00:41:02.580 thing is the

00:41:02.980 British public

00:41:03.400 is totally

00:41:03.820 right.

00:41:05.200 I do not

00:41:05.860 want to live

00:41:06.340 in a country

00:41:06.840 with Hamas

00:41:07.260 supporters.

00:41:07.880 I want them

00:41:08.220 deported.

00:41:08.780 I want them

00:41:09.160 chucked out.

00:41:11.080 Simple.

00:41:12.160 And I will

00:41:12.780 do everything

00:41:13.180 I can to

00:41:13.800 ensure that

00:41:14.240 happens.

00:41:15.500 I am fed

00:41:16.260 up, by the

00:41:16.860 way, of the

00:41:17.440 centrist dad

00:41:18.380 hand-wringing

00:41:19.580 era where

00:41:20.800 people say,

00:41:21.600 oh, but

00:41:22.720 might it be

00:41:23.380 against our

00:41:24.040 liberal values

00:41:24.840 and might

00:41:25.180 our liberalism.

00:41:26.380 I'm not as

00:41:26.980 interested in

00:41:27.800 that as I

00:41:28.380 am in

00:41:28.740 Britain

00:41:29.000 remaining

00:41:29.420 Britain.

00:41:31.660 I am much

00:41:32.700 more interested

00:41:33.400 in that.

00:41:35.520 At every

00:41:36.280 time of

00:41:36.840 national

00:41:37.260 emergency

00:41:37.860 in our

00:41:38.320 nation's

00:41:38.900 history,

00:41:39.460 we gave

00:41:39.900 something up

00:41:40.700 to survive.

00:41:42.820 We did

00:41:43.640 in the

00:41:43.880 Napoleonic

00:41:44.500 Wars,

00:41:45.400 we did

00:41:45.980 in the

00:41:46.280 wars of

00:41:46.940 the 20th

00:41:47.540 century,

00:41:48.420 and we

00:41:48.720 will have

00:41:49.080 to now.

00:41:49.680 this is

00:41:51.380 the thing

00:41:51.760 we give

00:41:52.200 up,

00:41:53.320 extending

00:41:53.960 tolerance to

00:41:55.540 people who

00:41:56.120 do not

00:41:56.560 extend it

00:41:57.320 back to

00:41:57.840 us.

00:41:58.940 It should

00:41:59.220 be over

00:41:59.820 that era.

00:42:01.500 The first

00:42:01.900 person who

00:42:02.460 must be

00:42:02.740 deported from

00:42:03.540 the UK

00:42:04.280 and have

00:42:04.840 his citizenship

00:42:05.520 withdrawn is

00:42:06.840 a man called

00:42:07.460 Mohammed

00:42:07.800 Sawalha who

00:42:08.620 lives in

00:42:09.040 North London.

00:42:09.740 I am happy

00:42:10.120 to start

00:42:10.620 handing out

00:42:11.180 his address

00:42:11.680 if need

00:42:12.120 be.

00:42:13.640 Mohammed

00:42:13.940 Sawalha is

00:42:14.620 a former

00:42:15.000 military

00:42:15.460 commander of

00:42:16.100 Hamas in

00:42:16.520 the West

00:42:16.840 Bank.

00:42:17.940 He has

00:42:18.320 been living

00:42:18.860 peacefully

00:42:19.500 in the

00:42:20.860 UK,

00:42:21.200 that is

00:42:21.440 undisturbedly

00:42:22.600 I should

00:42:22.960 say,

00:42:23.580 undisturbed

00:42:24.320 in the

00:42:24.620 UK for

00:42:25.440 many years

00:42:25.980 now.

00:42:26.840 Under the

00:42:27.280 last Labour

00:42:27.820 government he

00:42:28.560 seems to

00:42:28.980 have got

00:42:29.260 UK citizenship.

00:42:31.160 Now to

00:42:31.500 get UK

00:42:31.980 citizenship you

00:42:32.860 have among

00:42:33.220 other things

00:42:33.720 to show that

00:42:34.240 you are a

00:42:34.580 person of

00:42:35.020 good character.

00:42:36.040 I would

00:42:36.400 submit that

00:42:37.060 if you are

00:42:37.540 a military

00:42:38.040 commander of

00:42:38.660 Hamas you

00:42:39.140 are not a

00:42:39.600 person of

00:42:40.000 good character.

00:42:41.880 Now what

00:42:43.180 is to be

00:42:43.520 done about

00:42:43.940 this man?

00:42:44.720 He is

00:42:45.040 currently not

00:42:45.740 in the UK.

00:42:46.260 He is in

00:42:47.300 Istanbul and

00:42:48.280 again I am

00:42:48.760 very happy to

00:42:49.360 give out his

00:42:49.860 location should

00:42:50.600 people want

00:42:51.200 it.

00:42:52.940 I do not

00:42:53.820 want that

00:42:54.440 man back in

00:42:55.160 my country.

00:42:56.680 I don't

00:42:57.260 want him

00:42:57.780 here.

00:42:58.640 If he

00:42:59.020 arrives back

00:42:59.740 here he

00:43:00.180 should be

00:43:00.520 arrested and

00:43:01.220 deported.

00:43:02.800 Now I

00:43:03.820 would also

00:43:04.100 like him to

00:43:04.580 go to

00:43:04.820 the Gaza.

00:43:07.220 Mohammed

00:43:07.580 Sawalha

00:43:08.140 should not

00:43:08.580 be in

00:43:08.840 the UK.

00:43:10.580 The name

00:43:11.640 of this

00:43:11.940 man is

00:43:12.280 now out

00:43:12.720 there.

00:43:13.260 It was

00:43:13.480 put on

00:43:13.800 the front

00:43:14.080 page of

00:43:14.440 Sunday

00:43:14.660 time a

00:43:15.480 couple of

00:43:15.880 weeks ago.

00:43:16.900 I immediately

00:43:17.800 got my

00:43:18.320 lawyers to

00:43:19.160 write to

00:43:19.660 the Home

00:43:19.860 Secretary,

00:43:20.320 the Prime

00:43:20.600 Minister,

00:43:21.240 the Director

00:43:21.560 of Public

00:43:21.940 Prosecutions,

00:43:22.740 and the

00:43:22.920 Attorney General

00:43:23.520 saying that if

00:43:24.100 they do not

00:43:24.640 prosecute him I

00:43:25.740 will get a

00:43:26.160 prosecution

00:43:26.560 myself.

00:43:29.420 This man

00:43:30.160 cannot live in

00:43:31.100 my country.

00:43:32.920 He will be

00:43:33.640 the first and

00:43:35.500 we will see how

00:43:36.520 many more need

00:43:37.120 to come after

00:43:37.700 him.

00:43:39.060 He should

00:43:39.520 not have

00:43:39.880 British

00:43:40.140 citizenship.

00:43:40.700 We do

00:43:41.720 not want

00:43:42.260 him here.

00:43:42.980 We have

00:43:43.240 not benefited

00:43:43.920 from his

00:43:44.340 being here.

00:43:45.920 Let me

00:43:46.240 throw one

00:43:46.720 other name

00:43:47.180 straight out

00:43:47.880 there who

00:43:48.240 should be

00:43:48.540 on the

00:43:48.800 same list.

00:43:50.200 A man

00:43:50.900 called

00:43:51.220 Mohajirani,

00:43:52.100 the former

00:43:52.440 Deputy

00:43:52.760 Prime

00:43:53.020 Minister of

00:43:53.500 Iran.

00:43:53.880 He lives

00:43:54.200 in Harrow.

00:43:54.860 Again,

00:43:55.380 I'm very

00:43:55.780 happy to

00:43:56.180 start giving

00:43:56.620 his address

00:43:57.120 out.

00:43:58.540 Why does

00:43:58.860 he live

00:43:59.120 in Leafy

00:43:59.580 Harrow,

00:43:59.920 this man?

00:44:00.900 We don't

00:44:01.360 know.

00:44:02.140 The last

00:44:02.540 Labour

00:44:02.760 government gave

00:44:03.480 him right

00:44:03.840 to remain

00:44:04.420 in the UK.

00:44:06.000 Who is

00:44:06.620 Mohajirani?

00:44:08.220 Two things

00:44:08.780 might be of

00:44:09.300 interest.

00:44:09.740 One, he

00:44:11.920 was the

00:44:12.360 man who

00:44:12.780 the Ayatollah

00:44:13.360 Khomeini got

00:44:14.940 to write the

00:44:15.640 book-length

00:44:16.300 justification of

00:44:17.380 the fatwa

00:44:17.860 calling for

00:44:18.860 the murder

00:44:19.240 of the

00:44:19.480 British

00:44:19.720 novelist

00:44:20.200 Salman

00:44:20.600 Rushdie.

00:44:22.540 Why is

00:44:23.280 Salman

00:44:23.720 Rushdie's

00:44:24.200 life in

00:44:24.600 such peril

00:44:25.200 and has

00:44:25.540 been since

00:44:26.060 Valentine's

00:44:26.640 Day 1989

00:44:27.400 and Mohajirani

00:44:28.340 lives peacefully

00:44:29.180 in Leafy

00:44:29.780 Harrow?

00:44:31.060 I don't

00:44:31.820 want him

00:44:32.300 to.

00:44:33.500 Second,

00:44:34.420 apart from

00:44:34.840 justifying and

00:44:35.560 calling for

00:44:35.940 the murder

00:44:36.300 of a British

00:44:36.740 novelist,

00:44:37.820 Mohajirani was

00:44:38.520 also involved

00:44:39.180 in the prison

00:44:39.780 massacres of

00:44:40.600 leftists and

00:44:41.340 communists in

00:44:42.160 Iran in the

00:44:43.180 1980s.

00:44:44.280 One of his

00:44:44.640 former colleagues

00:44:45.300 has been

00:44:45.740 prosecuted for

00:44:46.540 war crimes in

00:44:47.800 a European

00:44:48.680 court in the

00:44:49.840 last year.

00:44:50.480 I see no

00:44:50.880 reason why

00:44:51.320 Mohajirani should

00:44:52.260 not also be

00:44:52.940 prosecuted under

00:44:53.740 the same

00:44:54.240 crimes.

00:44:56.980 Why should we

00:44:57.880 live with these

00:44:58.420 people?

00:44:59.660 Why should they

00:45:00.200 be here?

00:45:02.060 My forebears

00:45:02.880 didn't fight off

00:45:03.880 generation after

00:45:05.680 generation of

00:45:06.760 enemies only

00:45:08.040 only to have

00:45:08.400 these enemies

00:45:09.060 given the

00:45:09.560 right to

00:45:09.920 remain here?

00:45:12.200 We'd have no

00:45:13.080 need of them.

00:45:14.300 Our country has

00:45:14.880 not benefited

00:45:15.600 from them.

00:45:16.920 Get them

00:45:17.240 out.

00:45:18.280 Get them

00:45:18.660 out.

00:45:19.360 And if the

00:45:19.880 government will

00:45:20.440 not do it,

00:45:21.120 at some point

00:45:21.860 the people will

00:45:22.720 do it.

00:45:23.920 And I would

00:45:24.800 submit that

00:45:25.520 will be much

00:45:26.400 uglier.

00:45:28.120 And it's,

00:45:30.060 you know,

00:45:30.360 at one point,

00:45:31.160 Douglas,

00:45:31.620 I would have

00:45:32.460 said, you know,

00:45:33.100 this is too

00:45:34.300 far.

00:45:35.320 But the

00:45:35.700 thing, even

00:45:37.480 above the

00:45:38.220 Sir David

00:45:38.600 Amos and

00:45:39.100 coming as a

00:45:39.740 former teacher,

00:45:41.440 the thing that

00:45:42.140 really opened

00:45:44.480 my eyes to the

00:45:45.440 cowardice within

00:45:46.140 our institutions

00:45:46.980 was the

00:45:48.420 Batley Grammar

00:45:49.060 School case.

00:45:49.860 Yes,

00:45:50.220 absolutely.

00:45:50.880 Shameful.

00:45:51.880 And the

00:45:52.620 capitulation of

00:45:54.000 the union,

00:45:54.860 the refusal to

00:45:56.340 stand by their

00:45:57.260 member, which is

00:45:58.320 a working class

00:45:59.320 tradition going

00:46:00.580 back generations.

00:46:01.720 One of the

00:46:02.000 finest traditions

00:46:02.640 of the unions.

00:46:03.140 And they

00:46:04.340 just abdicated

00:46:05.960 responsibility.

00:46:07.000 And it just

00:46:07.500 shows, for me,

00:46:09.360 that there is

00:46:09.980 very few people

00:46:11.260 in power who've

00:46:12.680 got the backbone

00:46:13.420 to be willing to

00:46:14.340 tackle this.

00:46:15.780 I think that's

00:46:16.300 right.

00:46:17.220 Well, the

00:46:18.340 people who do

00:46:18.920 want to tackle

00:46:19.440 it will come

00:46:19.900 to power.

00:46:21.120 Well, Douglas,

00:46:22.640 this is a thing

00:46:23.920 that has been

00:46:24.560 discussed, and I

00:46:25.280 want to raise

00:46:25.760 with you, I

00:46:26.380 mean, I agree

00:46:26.840 with you.

00:46:27.560 And I saw

00:46:28.460 Ron DeSantis,

00:46:29.860 the American

00:46:30.520 presidential

00:46:31.140 candidate.

00:46:31.600 he gave a

00:46:32.920 speech in

00:46:33.460 which he

00:46:34.180 said, the

00:46:35.380 point of

00:46:35.780 immigration is

00:46:36.560 to bring

00:46:37.000 people who

00:46:37.640 are going

00:46:37.880 to benefit

00:46:38.320 our country.

00:46:39.520 And I

00:46:39.960 thought, I

00:46:40.340 haven't heard

00:46:40.780 someone say

00:46:41.260 that for

00:46:41.520 about 20

00:46:42.000 years.

00:46:44.020 As a

00:46:44.720 politician.

00:46:45.560 Yeah, quite.

00:46:47.060 Which to me

00:46:47.880 seems like a

00:46:48.440 fairly uncontroversial

00:46:49.480 statement,

00:46:50.060 actually.

00:46:51.540 But the

00:46:51.920 argument that I

00:46:52.820 see going

00:46:54.040 around, I

00:46:54.540 mean, these

00:46:54.940 people specifically

00:46:55.900 that you're

00:46:56.340 talking about,

00:46:57.040 I think few

00:46:57.820 would argue

00:46:58.240 about.

00:46:58.600 Oh, I bet

00:46:59.000 they would.

00:46:59.540 Anyway, well,

00:47:00.000 if they don't

00:47:00.340 argue about

00:47:00.780 it, why

00:47:00.960 not do

00:47:01.280 it?

00:47:01.680 Quite.

00:47:03.680 And I

00:47:04.280 want to

00:47:04.440 come back

00:47:04.700 to that

00:47:04.980 as well.

00:47:05.620 But the

00:47:06.140 one thing

00:47:06.540 I see is

00:47:07.360 particularly

00:47:07.740 American

00:47:08.440 commentators

00:47:10.080 say, well,

00:47:11.620 look, the

00:47:12.240 right in

00:47:12.820 particular has

00:47:13.700 been banging

00:47:14.240 on about

00:47:14.820 free speech

00:47:15.500 endlessly.

00:47:16.340 And then you

00:47:17.020 have these

00:47:17.400 people go out

00:47:18.080 in a protest

00:47:18.620 and suddenly

00:47:19.200 everyone's

00:47:19.580 saying they

00:47:19.900 should be

00:47:20.160 deported.

00:47:21.400 What do

00:47:21.920 you say to

00:47:22.240 those people?

00:47:22.820 First of all,

00:47:23.160 not everyone's

00:47:23.680 saying they

00:47:24.100 should be

00:47:24.360 deported.

00:47:24.780 A small

00:47:25.060 number of

00:47:25.500 us are.

00:47:25.900 Yeah, I

00:47:28.140 have some

00:47:28.860 friends on

00:47:29.680 the sort

00:47:30.560 of libertarian

00:47:31.360 right, as

00:47:32.040 it were, as

00:47:32.680 well as

00:47:32.960 people on

00:47:33.320 the left

00:47:33.680 who say,

00:47:34.660 but you're

00:47:34.960 such a

00:47:35.280 free speech

00:47:35.860 activist.

00:47:36.380 How could

00:47:36.760 you deny

00:47:37.780 the rights

00:47:38.440 of free

00:47:38.820 speech to

00:47:39.660 people who

00:47:40.060 simply want

00:47:40.620 to stand

00:47:41.040 outside

00:47:41.440 synagogues

00:47:42.120 taunting

00:47:42.480 Jews for

00:47:42.940 the murder

00:47:43.280 of their

00:47:43.540 fellow Jews?

00:47:46.060 Well, this

00:47:48.120 is not a

00:47:48.660 practice of

00:47:49.400 free speech.

00:47:50.340 It's not an

00:47:50.780 interesting test

00:47:51.720 case of

00:47:52.340 free speech.

00:47:53.740 It's very

00:47:54.560 straightforward.

00:47:56.360 Throughout our

00:47:56.820 history, as I

00:47:57.480 mentioned earlier,

00:47:58.540 we have

00:47:58.840 repeatedly been

00:47:59.680 willing to

00:48:01.400 say that

00:48:01.860 certain things

00:48:02.980 trump our

00:48:04.020 most cherished

00:48:04.760 values, and

00:48:05.640 the main one

00:48:06.280 is our

00:48:07.140 ability to

00:48:07.820 survive.

00:48:10.280 I would say

00:48:11.380 that, at

00:48:12.320 the moment, we

00:48:12.920 are at a

00:48:13.260 very important

00:48:13.800 point, not

00:48:14.400 least with

00:48:14.920 policing in

00:48:15.740 the UK.

00:48:16.940 The protests

00:48:17.740 that have

00:48:18.060 taken place in

00:48:18.780 recent weeks,

00:48:19.460 and the

00:48:19.740 protests that

00:48:20.220 have already

00:48:20.520 been announced

00:48:21.040 for the weeks

00:48:21.500 ahead, have

00:48:22.560 been a great

00:48:22.920 test for

00:48:23.660 the Metropolitan

00:48:24.180 Police and

00:48:24.820 other police

00:48:25.280 forces across

00:48:26.060 the UK, and

00:48:27.500 it is a test

00:48:28.240 that they have

00:48:28.820 failed monumentally.

00:48:31.460 Now, I know

00:48:32.680 the policing

00:48:33.200 decision they've

00:48:33.900 made.

00:48:35.240 Part of the

00:48:35.940 policing decision,

00:48:37.420 clearly, is

00:48:39.260 that they will

00:48:39.660 observe the

00:48:40.300 crowd, and

00:48:41.660 they will see

00:48:42.160 if anyone

00:48:42.540 breaks the

00:48:43.080 law.

00:48:43.920 And if they

00:48:44.340 do break the

00:48:45.080 law, they

00:48:45.580 may get a

00:48:46.520 visit at some

00:48:47.340 point later

00:48:48.480 from the

00:48:49.220 police, and

00:48:49.640 they may be

00:48:50.360 arrested.

00:48:50.780 Broadway's

00:48:52.840 smash hit, the

00:48:53.900 Neil Diamond

00:48:54.420 musical, A

00:48:55.400 Beautiful Noise,

00:48:56.620 is coming to

00:48:57.400 Toronto.

00:48:58.060 The true story

00:48:58.820 of a kid from

00:48:59.520 Brooklyn destined

00:49:00.400 for something

00:49:01.020 more, featuring

00:49:01.840 all the songs you

00:49:02.780 love, including

00:49:03.700 America, Forever

00:49:04.860 in Blue Jeans, and

00:49:06.000 Sweet Caroline.

00:49:07.320 Like Jersey Boys and

00:49:08.560 Beautiful, the next

00:49:09.600 musical mega hit is

00:49:10.880 here, the Neil

00:49:11.820 Diamond musical, A

00:49:13.180 Beautiful Noise,

00:49:14.200 April 28th through

00:49:15.260 June 7th, 2026, the

00:49:17.380 Princess of Wales

00:49:18.260 Theatre.

00:49:19.120 Get tickets at

00:49:19.840 murvish.com.

00:49:21.900 This happened in

00:49:22.840 the 2000s with

00:49:24.020 Anjum Chowdhury and

00:49:25.160 the group members of

00:49:26.040 Al-Majir Haroon.

00:49:26.920 It was a very

00:49:27.280 similar thing.

00:49:28.200 There was once

00:49:28.660 actually an occasion

00:49:29.440 when Al-Majir

00:49:30.620 Haroon came to me

00:49:31.220 personally in the

00:49:31.820 streets of London,

00:49:32.440 and I was amazed

00:49:33.900 that the British

00:49:34.460 police didn't do

00:49:35.660 more to protect

00:49:37.600 me or, well,

00:49:40.880 anyway.

00:49:41.660 And it turned out

00:49:42.540 that they were

00:49:42.880 doing the same

00:49:43.460 thing, which is

00:49:44.060 that they hang

00:49:44.780 back in order to

00:49:46.180 arrest people later.

00:49:47.380 Well, here's the

00:49:50.320 problem with that.

00:49:52.060 The world only

00:49:53.980 sees the crime

00:49:55.780 being committed.

00:49:57.480 The world does

00:49:58.320 not see the

00:49:59.380 follow-up.

00:50:00.980 The world is

00:50:02.040 very interested

00:50:03.440 in watching the

00:50:04.740 streets of London

00:50:05.800 at the moment

00:50:06.540 and are horrified

00:50:08.260 by what they

00:50:09.080 see.

00:50:10.340 They do not

00:50:11.380 see the tiny

00:50:12.680 number of

00:50:13.260 arrests that

00:50:13.900 the Metropolitan

00:50:14.520 Police has been

00:50:15.420 willing to

00:50:16.380 actually carry out

00:50:17.400 of people who

00:50:18.060 are supporting

00:50:18.940 Hamas on our

00:50:19.700 streets.

00:50:20.320 And not only

00:50:20.840 that, by the

00:50:21.400 way, Douglas,

00:50:21.960 we saw a couple

00:50:22.800 of years ago

00:50:23.580 people who drove

00:50:24.800 down from

00:50:25.360 Blackburn, quite

00:50:26.260 far away from

00:50:27.020 London, to go

00:50:27.840 into Jewish

00:50:28.420 areas and

00:50:29.180 through megaphones

00:50:30.640 shout, rape

00:50:31.800 Jewish women,

00:50:32.600 kill Jewish

00:50:33.020 women.

00:50:33.260 those people

00:50:45.640 who were

00:50:45.860 arrested and

00:50:47.420 not prosecuted.

00:50:48.500 Yes.

00:50:49.920 Maybe they

00:50:50.420 should have

00:50:50.700 tweeted it.

00:50:51.860 Yeah, they

00:50:52.260 should have

00:50:52.660 called them.

00:50:55.760 What was the

00:50:56.100 crime that

00:50:56.660 Lawrence Fox

00:50:57.160 committed again

00:50:57.920 that brought the

00:50:58.640 whole world

00:50:59.460 crashing down a

00:51:00.440 few weeks ago?

00:51:01.080 They should have

00:51:01.660 said they

00:51:01.920 wouldn't shag

00:51:02.360 them, which

00:51:02.860 is the opposite

00:51:03.500 of what they

00:51:03.980 seem to be.

00:51:04.320 They should have

00:51:05.900 gone through

00:51:06.340 Jewish areas

00:51:06.920 saying, I

00:51:07.300 wouldn't shag

00:51:08.100 them.

00:51:09.160 That would have

00:51:09.680 got the police

00:51:10.340 interested and

00:51:10.860 probably Ofcom.

00:51:13.320 That would have

00:51:13.900 got the Guardian

00:51:14.320 going for months.

00:51:16.700 My God, we've

00:51:17.380 been diverted,

00:51:18.280 haven't we?

00:51:21.400 Here's the thing.

00:51:22.380 The police are

00:51:24.580 also, of course,

00:51:25.420 in this strange

00:51:26.080 case of several

00:51:27.360 cases we now have

00:51:28.040 on camera of the

00:51:28.700 police taking down

00:51:29.640 the posters of

00:51:30.580 missing, stolen

00:51:31.960 Jewish children

00:51:33.020 that have been

00:51:33.660 put up in

00:51:34.180 London and other

00:51:34.740 places.

00:51:35.660 And as well as

00:51:36.100 being ripped down

00:51:36.960 by Muslims in

00:51:38.780 the UK and

00:51:39.800 leftists in the

00:51:40.640 UK, they've also

00:51:41.840 now been taken

00:51:42.640 down by police

00:51:43.720 in the UK.

00:51:44.620 We have footage

00:51:45.320 of the

00:51:45.580 Metropolitan

00:51:45.920 Police taking

00:51:47.060 down these

00:51:48.060 posters.

00:51:49.540 Two things

00:51:50.500 about that,

00:51:51.140 if I may.

00:51:51.920 The first is,

00:51:53.080 we should follow

00:51:53.740 the example of

00:51:54.860 some blue-collar

00:51:55.620 workers in New

00:51:56.380 York and elsewhere

00:51:57.120 in America

00:51:57.600 recently, who

00:51:58.780 have found

00:51:59.320 these scumbags

00:52:00.420 taking down

00:52:01.180 posters and

00:52:01.800 confronted them.

00:52:03.180 If the police

00:52:04.000 are not going

00:52:04.620 to confront

00:52:05.200 people ripping

00:52:06.060 down posters

00:52:06.820 and trying to

00:52:07.400 hurt Jews on

00:52:08.140 the streets of

00:52:08.720 Britain, again,

00:52:10.000 I would like

00:52:10.400 the public to

00:52:11.040 do so.

00:52:11.720 And I think

00:52:12.100 the public

00:52:12.480 should start

00:52:13.180 to do so.

00:52:13.840 And that is

00:52:14.200 what will

00:52:14.460 happen if the

00:52:15.100 police do not

00:52:15.660 protect the

00:52:16.120 public.

00:52:16.580 The public

00:52:17.100 will have to

00:52:17.580 start protecting

00:52:18.320 the public.

00:52:19.700 The second

00:52:20.340 thing...

00:52:20.640 May I,

00:52:21.100 just on that?

00:52:21.700 Sure.

00:52:23.360 Aren't we

00:52:23.860 being slightly

00:52:24.820 dishonest,

00:52:25.500 Douglas,

00:52:25.880 the demographic

00:52:26.420 situation in the

00:52:27.360 UK is very

00:52:27.940 different?

00:52:28.220 I don't know

00:52:30.800 that if I was

00:52:31.420 to challenge

00:52:31.900 somebody in the

00:52:32.520 street doing

00:52:32.960 that, that I

00:52:33.640 frankly at this

00:52:34.520 point would have

00:52:34.960 the support of

00:52:35.700 the people around

00:52:36.280 me.

00:52:37.640 I wonder if I

00:52:38.720 might find myself

00:52:39.480 in the minority.

00:52:40.140 Okay, well what

00:52:40.660 will happen at some

00:52:41.440 point is that a

00:52:42.200 group of people who

00:52:43.040 are in a majority

00:52:43.800 will come down from

00:52:44.860 some other part of

00:52:45.700 the UK and they'll

00:52:47.420 do it themselves.

00:52:48.980 And who would say

00:52:50.080 that that was a bad

00:52:50.780 thing?

00:52:52.640 At this point,

00:52:53.300 at this point,

00:52:54.780 if this is all,

00:52:56.040 all on the table,

00:52:58.220 oh, they're going

00:52:58.860 to regret it.

00:53:00.180 The police are

00:53:00.960 going to deeply

00:53:01.680 regret this.

00:53:03.320 So that's the

00:53:04.240 first thing.

00:53:05.500 The second thing

00:53:06.360 is, and let me be

00:53:08.300 as clear as possible

00:53:09.500 on this, the police

00:53:11.080 clearly seem to

00:53:12.140 think in the UK

00:53:13.160 that the big

00:53:13.960 problem is that

00:53:15.960 it is provocative

00:53:16.880 to put up posters

00:53:18.340 of abducted

00:53:19.420 Jewish children,

00:53:20.420 and that is

00:53:22.380 because it will

00:53:23.120 provoke community

00:53:24.520 tensions.

00:53:25.520 This, by the way,

00:53:26.180 is not a fringe

00:53:26.880 view.

00:53:27.380 It is a view

00:53:27.880 clearly shared by

00:53:28.900 a number of

00:53:29.600 politicians across

00:53:30.480 the UK, most

00:53:31.380 prominently certain

00:53:32.320 Muslim politicians

00:53:33.180 across the UK.

00:53:36.000 Here, let us be

00:53:37.400 totally frank.

00:53:39.160 If there are

00:53:39.840 people in the UK

00:53:41.200 who are offended

00:53:43.480 by the posters

00:53:44.540 of missing Jewish

00:53:45.620 children, they must

00:53:46.600 leave the UK.

00:53:48.360 We do not want

00:53:49.380 them.

00:53:50.420 It is not

00:53:51.240 Jews who should

00:53:52.340 be fearful in

00:53:53.160 the UK, it is

00:53:54.540 the people who

00:53:55.260 would make Jews

00:53:56.260 fearful.

00:53:57.320 They must leave.

00:53:59.180 It is shameful

00:54:00.580 to me that in

00:54:01.880 the last few

00:54:02.540 weeks I have

00:54:03.900 had friends from

00:54:04.620 around the world,

00:54:05.340 including Jewish

00:54:05.980 friends, saying,

00:54:06.820 is it safe any

00:54:07.820 longer to come

00:54:08.620 to England, to

00:54:10.200 come to Britain,

00:54:11.500 specifically to

00:54:12.240 come to London?

00:54:14.160 It is not Jews

00:54:15.620 who should fear

00:54:16.360 being in London,

00:54:17.480 it is the people

00:54:18.340 who would make

00:54:19.000 them fearful.

00:54:20.420 So, at some

00:54:21.420 point, the Jews

00:54:22.140 who are a very

00:54:22.860 small minority

00:54:23.580 in the UK, a

00:54:25.000 little over 200,000.

00:54:27.060 They are dwarfed

00:54:28.180 by the large size

00:54:29.220 of the Muslim

00:54:29.680 community in the UK

00:54:30.540 at the moment, but

00:54:31.900 fine.

00:54:33.040 The non-Muslim

00:54:33.900 population of the UK

00:54:35.040 is far larger.

00:54:37.540 And, by and large,

00:54:39.200 in my experience,

00:54:40.620 they are very good

00:54:41.600 people.

00:54:43.040 The British still

00:54:43.880 have pride in

00:54:44.960 their past that

00:54:45.740 has not been

00:54:46.200 beaten out of

00:54:46.920 them.

00:54:47.580 They still have a

00:54:48.380 sense of the

00:54:49.320 goodness of our

00:54:50.120 nation, of the

00:54:51.540 pride of our

00:54:52.200 nation, of what

00:54:53.560 it has done in

00:54:54.200 the past that we

00:54:55.020 should be grateful

00:54:55.660 for and proud of,

00:54:57.180 and what it might

00:54:57.960 still do now.

00:54:59.520 Despite decades of

00:55:00.780 indoctrination to

00:55:01.700 try to tell us that

00:55:02.500 we are wicked, that

00:55:03.900 is really only

00:55:04.600 believed by a

00:55:05.340 small number of

00:55:06.080 people who happen

00:55:06.800 to have control of

00:55:07.600 many of the major

00:55:08.300 institutions, and

00:55:09.220 have a disproportionate

00:55:10.260 voice in the media,

00:55:11.260 and a disproportionate

00:55:12.360 presence in what

00:55:13.060 used to be called

00:55:13.680 academia.

00:55:15.460 Fine.

00:55:16.580 We'll do this

00:55:17.260 without them.

00:55:18.800 Do you not worry,

00:55:20.200 Douglas, that with

00:55:22.360 what you're saying,

00:55:23.620 that we're going to

00:55:24.120 be pretty soon, not

00:55:25.240 that you're advocating

00:55:25.980 it, I want to make

00:55:26.440 that clear, that

00:55:27.680 we're going to be on

00:55:28.120 the path to a

00:55:30.100 pretty unpleasant

00:55:31.260 government pretty

00:55:32.260 soon?

00:55:33.160 Well, we've got

00:55:33.800 Starmer, of course,

00:55:34.580 but that's a

00:55:34.900 different thing.

00:55:36.280 What we'll have is,

00:55:38.640 this will all be

00:55:39.540 suppressed.

00:55:40.920 Again and again

00:55:41.580 and again, until

00:55:43.120 you can't suppress

00:55:43.840 it anymore.

00:55:45.540 And it will not

00:55:46.360 be a matter of

00:55:47.140 party affiliation,

00:55:48.660 or parties in

00:55:49.480 power.

00:55:50.120 It will simply

00:55:50.880 start to happen

00:55:51.700 on the streets.

00:55:53.560 The British

00:55:54.280 public are being

00:55:55.220 pushed beyond

00:55:56.060 our endurance.

00:55:58.140 And if we are

00:55:59.300 waiting for a

00:56:00.000 political outlet,

00:56:01.020 I think that a

00:56:01.580 large number of

00:56:02.220 people will start

00:56:03.020 to think we don't

00:56:03.740 have a political

00:56:04.340 outlet.

00:56:05.380 The Home

00:56:05.880 Secretary and the

00:56:06.660 government say

00:56:07.380 things, and yet

00:56:08.340 they do not

00:56:08.780 happen.

00:56:10.260 The Labour

00:56:11.340 Party say

00:56:11.980 things and

00:56:12.560 promise things,

00:56:13.140 and yet they

00:56:13.420 do not happen.

00:56:14.120 I'm old enough

00:56:14.780 to remember when

00:56:15.540 the last Labour

00:56:16.140 government, whilst

00:56:17.240 ratcheting up

00:56:18.440 mass immigration

00:56:19.300 into the UK,

00:56:20.540 talked about the

00:56:21.200 dangers of mass

00:56:22.020 immigration.

00:56:22.500 I well remember

00:56:24.640 people like, what

00:56:26.160 was his name?

00:56:28.760 There was a Labour

00:56:30.300 immigration minister

00:56:31.300 in about 2007 who

00:56:32.480 gave a front-page

00:56:33.100 interview to the

00:56:33.660 Times of London,

00:56:34.860 which he talked

00:56:35.900 about the downsides

00:56:37.200 of multiculturalism,

00:56:38.300 how everything had

00:56:38.820 gone wrong with it,

00:56:39.580 and we needed to get

00:56:40.200 control of our

00:56:40.880 borders.

00:56:42.700 We've heard these

00:56:43.600 people from right

00:56:44.460 and left, Labour

00:56:45.400 and Conservative.

00:56:46.580 None of them ever do

00:56:47.800 what they say, and it

00:56:49.560 seems in part it's

00:56:50.480 because they can't.

00:56:52.840 So I very much

00:56:53.860 fear, and again, as

00:56:55.500 you say, I'm not

00:56:55.940 advocating it, I'm

00:56:56.700 observing it, I very

00:56:58.220 much fear that in the

00:56:59.120 years ahead, this is

00:57:00.800 past the parties.

00:57:03.100 More people are

00:57:04.200 members of the

00:57:05.600 Birdwatchers

00:57:06.280 Association of the UK

00:57:07.360 than belong to all

00:57:08.200 of the nation's

00:57:08.840 political parties.

00:57:10.120 So clearly people

00:57:10.920 don't believe that

00:57:11.560 political parties are

00:57:12.420 the way forward, or

00:57:13.380 able to do

00:57:14.420 anything, or anything

00:57:16.220 much.

00:57:16.760 So we'll see what's

00:57:18.920 happened.

00:57:19.720 But you know, the

00:57:20.260 public didn't get us

00:57:21.500 here.

00:57:21.900 I was asked by a

00:57:22.800 senior member of the

00:57:23.520 BBC shortly after the

00:57:25.280 atrocities of 2017 what I

00:57:28.280 thought had gone wrong

00:57:29.580 and why the BBC and

00:57:31.120 others were now

00:57:31.820 incapable of speaking to

00:57:33.180 the general public and

00:57:34.180 were missing the general

00:57:35.200 public.

00:57:36.320 And I remember this

00:57:37.320 person said to me,

00:57:38.340 what should we do,

00:57:39.320 Douglas?

00:57:40.180 And I said, it's a bit

00:57:42.440 late now, isn't it?

00:57:44.940 I said, I feel, when

00:57:47.160 you ask me this and

00:57:48.140 expect my answer, like

00:57:50.180 somebody who has been

00:57:51.120 pushed deliberately into

00:57:52.920 a swimming pool in

00:57:54.160 their full clothing and

00:57:56.480 then asked why they're

00:57:57.300 wet.

00:57:59.380 I didn't want to be

00:58:00.940 here.

00:58:02.400 I didn't want my

00:58:03.300 nation to be here.

00:58:05.220 But we've been pushed

00:58:06.360 here.

00:58:09.040 We'll see what we do.

00:58:10.920 Douglas, I want to ask

00:58:11.920 you about the role of

00:58:12.660 the BBC and the media

00:58:13.680 more generally, but

00:58:14.560 we'll continue this

00:58:15.440 conversation on locals.

00:58:16.700 We'll do about 40

00:58:17.540 minutes or so on there

00:58:18.440 because we've done

00:58:19.860 almost an hour here.

00:58:20.840 So follow us over

00:58:22.240 there.

00:58:24.040 Dave the Kiwi says,

00:58:25.260 we need people like

00:58:26.020 Constantine and Douglas

00:58:26.880 representing the UK in

00:58:28.500 public office.

00:58:29.540 Has it ever crossed the

00:58:30.600 minds of either of them

00:58:32.240 to stand as in peace?

00:58:33.460 Broadway's smash hit, the

00:58:44.280 Neil Diamond musical, a

00:58:45.740 beautiful noise is

00:58:47.240 coming to Toronto.

00:58:48.440 The true story of a

00:58:49.480 kid from Brooklyn destined

00:58:50.780 for something more

00:58:51.800 featuring all the songs

00:58:52.940 you love, including

00:58:54.080 America forever in blue

00:58:55.680 jeans and sweet Caroline

00:58:57.220 like Jersey boys and

00:58:58.920 beautiful.

00:58:59.340 The next musical mega

00:59:00.840 hit is here.

00:59:01.760 The Neil Diamond

00:59:02.520 musical, a beautiful

00:59:03.920 noise now through June

00:59:05.240 7th, 2026 at the

00:59:07.220 Princess of Wales

00:59:08.020 Theatre.

00:59:08.720 Get tickets at

00:59:09.400 Murbush.com.

TRIGGERnometry - November 05, 2023

Douglas Murray： This is About Survival

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