TRIGGERnometry - Dr Joanna Williams on Feminism, #MeToo & the Gender Pay Gap

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:03.300 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:04.280 And this is the show for you.

00:00:05.660 If you're bored of people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about it.

00:00:10.620 Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:00:15.400 Here at the world-famous Angel Comedy Club, our amazing expert guest this week is Dr. Joanna Williams,

00:00:21.680 who's the author of Women vs. Feminism and the associate editor of Spike magazine.

00:00:26.540 Dr. Joanna Williams, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:28.600 Thank you for having me.

00:00:30.000 well thank you so much for coming in and well you're the author of women versus feminism let's

00:00:42.840 just get straight into that i'm assuming that in partly in writing that you've had to define

00:00:47.740 the word feminism yes and what is your definition well i'm not one with reluctance i'm not one

00:00:55.920 which I guess in and of itself is a controversial thing to say as a woman I think it's often assumed

00:01:01.400 particularly if you're a educated woman that you automatically will be a feminist and when I say

00:01:08.660 that I'm not a feminist I think people think that that means that I'm all for women kind of staying

00:01:14.180 at home in the kitchen having children which is completely the opposite of what I think I think

00:01:20.780 women should be out there in the world making an impact on society preferably changing the world

00:01:26.000 as they go along but I think we don't need feminism to do that anymore and I think it's

00:01:31.080 got to the point where feminism is really holding women back because the feminism that seems to be

00:01:37.400 described as fourth wave feminism or intersectional feminism but I think is actually the feminism

00:01:43.640 that fills guardian columns fills school assemblies on everyday sexism just seems to be

00:01:50.480 absolutely determined to tell women that they're victims, that they're disadvantaged, that they're

00:01:56.380 oppressed in a way that just doesn't match up with the reality of certainly of my existence and of

00:02:02.740 all the women who I know. It doesn't match up with the reality of their existence and I don't think

00:02:08.380 women are victims today so that's why I wouldn't call myself a feminist. So before we dig into that

00:02:14.220 how have you come to the place that you are now to have these views to be the person they are?

00:02:19.020 what's been your journey through life? So I guess when I was much younger I would have described

00:02:25.940 myself as a feminist. Certainly I was brought up to be a feminist and I was brought up to be

00:02:31.280 very left-wing. I'm from Middlesbrough in the northeast of England. I grew up as a child

00:02:37.060 thinking that Margaret Thatcher was the worst person who'd ever walked on this earth and was

00:02:42.280 entirely responsible for or the industry in Middlesbrough coming to an end and people who

00:02:49.880 I knew being put out of work so that's very much my kind of political background but then I think

00:02:57.200 I began to think about things a lot more critically and I think feminism changed and

00:03:02.920 left-wing politics has changed over the course of the past 20-30 years and I think some of the

00:03:08.920 things that I believed in 20, 30 years ago, like free speech, like the fact that women are strong

00:03:15.320 and powerful and can do what they want. Those ideas seem to have been abandoned by the political

00:03:21.520 left, and they seem to have been abandoned by feminism. So that's why I no longer really

00:03:26.880 associate myself with those ideas. That's why I wanted, sorry, Franz, that's why I wanted to dig

00:03:32.220 into the definition of feminism, because my understanding of feminism, I think, was what

00:03:37.000 you were talking about which is it's the idea that men and women are and should be equal right

00:03:41.460 but there seems to be more to that now so what what what would what do you see as the third or

00:03:47.960 fourth wave feminism that you you are reacting against what how would you define that yeah i

00:03:55.020 think that's a really great question so i think there's two ways of looking at it i think you're

00:04:00.160 absolutely right and i've lost track of how many times over the past couple of years people have

00:04:05.140 told me oh go and get a dictionary look up feminism in a dictionary and you'll see that all it means

00:04:11.200 is that men and women are equal as if this is the most kind of benign and innocent statement in the

00:04:16.660 world and of course if that was all that feminism meant then yes we would all be feminists as the

00:04:22.520 old saying goes but I think it comes with so much more baggage nowadays and I think the position of

00:04:29.560 women in society has changed so I mean just a few kind of facts and statistics to back that up

00:04:34.980 if you look I mean girls are doing so much better at school than boys nowadays and I know this is

00:04:40.940 quite widely known but I think what's less well known is just how long this has been going on for

00:04:45.960 so more women than men have been going to university for over a quarter of a century now

00:04:51.300 over 25 years we've had more women than men going to university and as a result then you've got more

00:04:58.220 women entering the professions more women taking top jobs you've got more women than men working

00:05:03.560 as accountants as vets as doctors as lawyers and because of this women are earning more than ever

00:05:11.380 before as well so particularly for women under the age of 40 the pay gap is absolutely negligible

00:05:18.480 I mean the hour if you compare hourly rates of pay the median pay gap is under two percent

00:05:24.320 so I mean it's really negligible so so women's lives have changed and but but what feminism does

00:05:31.940 in order to keep going is it can't ever admit victory it can't ever say yeah guys you're right

00:05:38.760 you know we we've got equality or we we've as near as damn it got equality um instead what it does

00:05:46.260 is it digs up more and more obscure areas of inequality so it looks further to try and find

00:05:53.960 areas where you can justifiably claim that women are still oppressed so it shifts away from what's

00:06:00.860 going on in reality jobs and work and it moves into culture and it moves into what i think is

00:06:08.420 looking at men's kind of bad behavior which a lot of the time isn't even that bad as far as i'm

00:06:14.300 concerned so i'm sure you'll have heard um this time last week a professor from king's college

00:06:20.160 london made the terrible terrible mistake of getting into a lift at a conference in san francisco

00:06:26.180 and asking for the ladies' lingerie floor.

00:06:29.900 And this has made news headlines around the world for a week,

00:06:33.160 which is absolutely bizarre that this should be the case.

00:06:36.820 I mean, as comedians, it wasn't the best joke,

00:06:38.880 but the idea that this is somehow an expression of the oppressive patriarchy

00:06:42.820 might be taking a little bit more.

00:06:44.100 Exactly.

00:06:45.060 So it just seems like feminism has gone in this really bizarre direction

00:06:48.780 where jokes and speech and whistling and winking,

00:06:53.980 Apparently, I think it's 36% of 18 to 24-year-old women think that winking and whistling is a form of sexual harassment.

00:07:03.320 And I kind of think it's really sad that they've been taught to think that way.

00:07:09.000 Wouldn't you say, though, that feminism definitely should still exist when you think of what is happening globally?

00:07:16.960 For instance, issues such as FGM, the fact that in certain countries women aren't allowed to vote or they're not allowed to drive.

00:07:23.320 you know they still live under a rigid patriarchy surely that doesn't that mean that we should still

00:07:28.100 have feminism well i think you're absolutely right that the position of women and men around the world

00:07:32.300 in different countries around the world is very very different actually i think feminism is far

00:07:37.640 too deferential towards islam as a religion and you see very few feminist campaigns which actually

00:07:45.000 challenge some of the patriarchal assumptions of islam particularly in countries where islam is

00:07:51.840 the dominant religion and i think if the feminists really were looking for areas of inequality gender

00:07:58.020 inequality to expose then they could certainly go a lot further and deeper in looking at what is

00:08:04.540 going on in other countries around the world but it seems to me that particularly in this country

00:08:09.760 what you have is some incredibly privileged women women who are presenters at the bbc for example

00:08:17.000 women whose salaries look like telephone numbers who are able to make front page news stories

00:08:24.400 out of how terrible their lives are and you know I'm not naive I certainly don't think that all

00:08:32.720 women even in this country are doing fantastically well nowadays and everything's so super brilliant

00:08:39.000 and we just want to put a smile on our face and say hey everything's wonderful you know I do think

00:08:44.240 there's some women who don't have it so well but i actually think that those women have far more in

00:08:51.160 common with men who are in the same position and are much better off fighting for their rights for

00:08:57.940 better pay better housing better child care alongside men who they live with who they work

00:09:05.400 with so for example one area in society where there is absolutely zero gender pay gap is for

00:09:11.340 people who are earning the minimum wage because if you are in a job that pays the minimum wage

00:09:16.800 it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman you both get paid the minimum wage so those people

00:09:22.720 who are on minimum wage jobs are much better off working alongside each other to fight for higher

00:09:28.200 wages than the women are aligning themselves with BBC presenters CEOs of FTSE 100 companies

00:09:36.380 in kind of saying this is a specifically an issue that specifically affects women now you were saying

00:09:43.540 about um just do you think you're talking about islam and the patriarchal attitudes of certain

00:09:49.380 islamic countries do you think that certainly that the modern feminist movement is essentially

00:09:54.800 targeting easy targets instead of going for certain issues that they know would be divisive

00:10:01.980 and potentially controversial i think there's some truth in that but i think the problem is

00:10:07.940 i think and this is going to sound really controversial but i think feminism nowadays

00:10:13.280 is both an elitist preoccupation and it's self-obsessed there's a real degree of narcissism

00:10:20.740 in it so if you look at like the me too movement this is all about saying me too you know i'm a

00:10:27.760 victim too bad things have happened to me as well and it's about putting themselves in the center

00:10:35.620 of the story the narrative becomes their own victimhood so rather than looking abroad or

00:10:42.700 even in this country to looking at other women who are maybe more disadvantaged than them

00:10:47.380 this is about us this is about how disadvantaged I am and and there's a real streak of narcissism

00:10:54.720 of making themselves and their own victimhood

00:10:57.180 the centre of the story.

00:10:58.820 Let me put a counter-argument to that

00:11:00.400 because, I mean, it did seem to me

00:11:03.240 that certainly the Me Too movement at points went too far.

00:11:06.660 A good example is a comedian called Aziz Ansari,

00:11:09.140 who you probably remember,

00:11:10.540 got into trouble for what seemed to be like a consensual...

00:11:14.420 A bad date.

00:11:15.300 A bad date, right.

00:11:16.640 And then the conversation seemed to go,

00:11:18.300 well, bad dates are also a form of...

00:11:20.340 Anyway, but it did seem to me, certainly,

00:11:23.540 that there were people who ended up being exposed

00:11:26.940 as a result of the Me Too movement

00:11:29.240 who were absolutely vile, despicable human beings

00:11:32.480 who were abusing their power,

00:11:34.220 who were taking advantage of women and men,

00:11:37.420 but predominantly women.

00:11:39.420 Why are you critical of a movement

00:11:42.000 that has allowed a lot of people,

00:11:44.940 although I get what you're saying,

00:11:46.260 it allowed a lot of people to go, yes, Me Too,

00:11:48.200 and maybe their experiences were not as bad

00:11:50.960 as someone who might be a victim of Harvey Weinstein.

00:11:53.540 or whatever but it was a movement that exposed a lot of uh bad behavior terrible behavior and it

00:12:02.220 allowed a lot of people to have validation that something they were unable to speak about up to

00:12:07.420 that point they now were able to speak about why are you critical well you say it exposed as if

00:12:14.360 this has been as if these people have been proven are found guilty and i actually think i'm sure

00:12:21.640 Again, I'm not naive. I'm sure bad things have happened. And I'm sure people like Harvey Weinstein have no doubt behaved incredibly badly, if not illegally, in the past. But they need to be tried in courts of law. You know, they need to be found guilty in a court of law, punished and sentenced appropriately for what they've done.

00:12:41.920 and the problem with the Me Too movement is it shifts the debate away from a court of law

00:12:47.540 and it takes it on to social media so these become Twitter campaigns and Facebook campaigns

00:12:54.160 and what you have then is allegation, counter-allegation, you get all kinds of blurring

00:13:01.620 of different experiences all put into the mix together all contributing to this narrative

00:13:07.500 that to be female today is to be quite uniquely oppressed and abused um and meanwhile the likes

00:13:15.280 of harvey weinstein are just seen as as one among many and i think they actually get let off the

00:13:22.600 hook you know they need they need to be taken to court and we need to see these allegations

00:13:28.340 tested well actually why is he not why has he not been prosecuted i don't know were any of these

00:13:33.980 people who've got in trouble right apparently based on allegations justifiably so why have

00:13:39.900 none of them been prosecuted sex addicts mate have a bit of respect all right france is speaking up

00:13:48.080 for the sex addicts of the world doesn't help with this voice does it either just got the wrong

00:13:52.600 accent for that why haven't they been well i think somebody like harvey einstein i think there

00:13:57.580 probably are proceedings underway and i'm sure we'll no doubt see him in court before too long

00:14:02.480 but I think the problem with the movement like I said it does drag in a lot of other people

00:14:08.480 so you mentioned Aziz Ansari where there are simply no there's nothing about that story

00:14:15.140 that could stand up in a court of law there is nothing that he did that was in any way illegal

00:14:22.140 so you just get this kind of general sense of yuckiness of this was not a nice thing that

00:14:29.940 happened to this woman and you have men and you know i'm i'm not somebody who generally goes

00:14:37.000 around saying let's feel sorry for men i've got no time whatsoever for the men's rights movement

00:14:41.280 um but you you do have men who've had their jobs lost reputations shattered on allegations rather

00:14:51.180 than actually having been found guilty of any particular crime i mean i think there's been a

00:14:56.900 huge shift and I think if you go back 20 years ago and more you know women were routinely not

00:15:04.000 believed women could take stories and did take stories to the police or not even stories took

00:15:10.620 accusations to the police and were not believed and and justice didn't operate in their favor

00:15:18.100 and I think that's terrible and that's not a time that I have any desire to return to but I think

00:15:26.340 the pendulum has swung so far the other way now that we have this assumption that women should

00:15:31.760 always be believed that women who make accusations of sexual harassment or sexual assault never lie

00:15:39.900 and actually i think that's just as unhelpful as saying women should never be believed so i'm a

00:15:47.140 woman and i'm quite capable of lying i do tell lies women are better at it actually i'm not very

00:15:54.620 good at it but it doesn't stop me from trying every now and again um but i think if we have

00:16:01.500 this assumption that women never lie that women must always be believed i think it actually

00:16:06.480 reduces women to the status of children that were put on this kind of special pedestal as a kind of

00:16:13.100 this rare breed apart and it actually doesn't do women any favors at all do you think a large part

00:16:19.220 of the me too campaign was based in the frustrations of women when it came when it comes to things like

00:16:25.520 conviction rates for sexual assault rape which are notoriously low and it's incredibly difficult

00:16:31.360 to prove so for some women the only option they felt they have the only power they have is to go

00:16:36.620 on social media and go this happened to me yeah not completely convinced i'm afraid um i think

00:16:46.260 Conviction rates for sexual assault, it's very, very difficult to say they are low because what you're assuming then is that there's a lot of cases where they should have been found guilty but weren't found guilty.

00:17:02.740 so you're kind of reading something in then to non-statistics you're looking at a lack of

00:17:10.900 allegation or a lack of successful conviction and reading into that something that we can never

00:17:18.920 ever know whether it's actually there or not you know I'm not really explaining that very clearly

00:17:25.180 but we're saying that this is a huge problem because there are no statistics to back it up

00:17:32.580 and i'm always very very doubtful about doing that i'm also very doubtful about women who say

00:17:39.060 they are so completely powerless they had to spill all in the front page of the times you know

00:17:45.720 my only option so if you look at this woman in the lift in san francisco you know what essentially

00:17:52.220 what she's saying is that she felt so exhausted is the word that she actually she's actually used

00:17:57.940 she was so exhausted by having to deal with sexism on a routine basis that she was completely unable

00:18:04.660 to say there and then in the lift actually that's a really crap joke it's not even funny and I find

00:18:11.900 it offensive which personally I think would have been an overreaction anyway but she was so exhausted

00:18:16.960 by sexism that she couldn't say that uh yet she was able to go off making an official make an

00:18:23.000 official complaint and drag the whole thing through pages of newspapers should have had

00:18:28.320 my girlfriend in the list she's got no problem telling me my jokes are crap and she's bored of

00:18:33.040 me so well how much of this do you think joanna is about people's lack of understanding of

00:18:37.880 statistics because i know from speaking to many women my wife included that many many women i

00:18:43.760 would i would argue probably the vast majority of women have experienced some form of harassment

00:18:48.380 of one shape or form or another but that does not necessarily mean that the majority of men

00:18:54.440 are doing the harassing the 80 20 year old would tell us that actually probably it's a small

00:18:59.320 minority of men who are doing a lot of the harassment which many women experience and then

00:19:05.460 but the picture then becomes men are harassers women are being harassed and there's this conflict

00:19:10.700 do you think that we are it's just a misunderstanding of statistics basically what i'm asking no i don't

00:19:16.040 think it's a misunderstanding of statistics because I think people interpret and even look

00:19:21.020 for statistics that back up a particular narrative that they want to present to the world. I think

00:19:26.360 one thing that has happened is that definitions of harassment, and you see this with domestic

00:19:34.720 violence, even with rape itself, definitions change over time and they expand and they are

00:19:43.300 very subjective definitions so the one thing that i think the me too movement's really thrown up is

00:19:49.480 that the definition of harassment according to the proponents of me too is unwanted behavior

00:19:56.340 it's it's anything that you don't want to happen is labeled as harassment so this is why you get

00:20:02.640 things like winking and whistling being interpreted as sexual harassment particularly by younger

00:20:08.540 people so there's nothing objective i i don't think there's anything in a wink that is objectively

00:20:15.940 abusive or harassing to you it's how you feel about that wink and how you feel about the person

00:20:25.440 who's winking at you so you've got these kind of very subjective very elastic definitions so then

00:20:33.920 when we come out with statistics like you know sometimes I've seen 85 90 percent of women have

00:20:40.180 experienced harassment and if you're a young woman especially like oh my god that's appalling

00:20:45.520 you know this you must just walk down the street and it's just like a barrage of harassment from

00:20:51.300 the moment you leave your house and if you read 90 percent of women that is what you're going to

00:20:56.680 think but then dig down and like I say if harassment is being winked at you know or being

00:21:03.300 whistled at then you know really is this really such a big deal well here's something sorry

00:21:08.540 francis let me just ask this one um this is something i really wanted to ask you because

00:21:13.180 and it's a bit of a complicated point so let me lay it out how much of this about is about the

00:21:19.580 biological differences between men and women and here's my point men are bigger stronger more

00:21:24.880 aggressive more prone to violence on average right than women are do we can we agree on that

00:21:29.700 No, I already lost you.

00:21:33.460 Or bigger and stronger, can we agree on that?

00:21:35.120 Yeah, a little bit.

00:21:35.920 On average?

00:21:36.220 On average.

00:21:36.940 As long as we put in the on average, I would agree with the bigger and stronger.

00:21:40.000 Of course, on average.

00:21:42.260 But I don't think that necessarily means more prone to aggression and violence.

00:21:45.820 No, but testosterone levels and statistics tell us men commit way more violent crimes than women.

00:21:50.680 Yeah, but I think perhaps women just perhaps use aggression and violence in different ways, let's say.

00:21:59.340 okay physical aggression physical aggression can we agree on physical aggression and violence

00:22:03.060 yeah just for the purpose of right but i don't think men are controlled by their testosterone

00:22:07.140 and i think to say that i'll take it back i'll take it back so if we if we start off with men

00:22:12.320 on average are bigger stronger more prone to physical aggression and violence right as i'm

00:22:17.640 putting that out there and you don't have to agree but if we take that for the point of this argument

00:22:22.400 right if you then look at if i put myself in that position say i'm i don't know five foot

00:22:29.200 nine or something right i'm not particularly strong or big or whatever if a guy another guy

00:22:34.260 who i knew was sexually interested in who was much bigger much stronger who i perceived as being

00:22:39.820 prone to way more aggression than i am prone to could you stop looking everybody just looks at me

00:22:46.160 what the man with the south London accent and the tattoo suddenly is the aggressor in this situation

00:22:51.680 so let's say i would never be sexually interested in you yes yes i have standards

00:22:56.160 carry on well let's just pretend that francis was big and strong and not woefully out of shape yes

00:23:02.420 so if that was the scenario and say we were in an isolated environment right if francis was to

00:23:10.080 wink at me in a dark alley if he was bigger and you'd have very good eyesight let's say let's say

00:23:17.040 i would my reception of that would differ based on the comparative size and strength difference

00:23:24.380 between the two of us so how much of it is that women tend to be smaller they tend to be weaker

00:23:30.540 and therefore less able to defend themselves you add on top of that the fact that given the

00:23:34.760 historical situation men tend to be in positions of power more than women are at this point in time

00:23:39.620 so then you've got the potential situation where someone who's bigger stronger and in a position

00:23:44.480 to influence your career is making what might be perceived outside of that context as relatively

00:23:52.360 innocuous suggestive you know winking whatever but if you put all that together it's hinting at

00:23:59.340 a problem which is you're not really fully able to defend yourself and stand up for yourself in

00:24:03.460 that situation yeah not convinced i'm afraid i'm open to be convinced but i wanted to lay that out

00:24:09.540 because a lot of the people who may be watching this will be having these thoughts and that's

00:24:13.900 what we'd like to do at trigonometry we like to bring in interesting controversial people

00:24:18.160 and then pose questions to them that i think a lot of people would want to have definitely

00:24:21.960 No, well, I mean, you were asking right at the very, very beginning about my kind of political background and what motivates me politically.

00:24:31.200 And I think one belief that I've had for 20 years, as long as I can remember, or I don't know about a belief,

00:24:39.360 but one thing that I've instinctively reacted against is any form of determinism, whether that is a social determinism.

00:24:48.580 so I am how I am because my mother dressed me in pink baby grows and I was given a doll to play

00:24:55.120 with or at the same time a biological determinism I am how I am simply because of my hormones and

00:25:03.440 you know I instinctively react against both of those things because both of those things are

00:25:08.620 saying that I'm not in control of myself you know I am who I am because of either things that

00:25:13.540 happened to me or what i happen to be born with and i think the problem with the argument that

00:25:19.900 you've put forward is that it suggests that it's it's premised on this idea that men are ruled by

00:25:27.600 their testosterone that men are potential aggressors let's take that out of the equation

00:25:33.020 no no but simply because men are men women should be fearful of men and i have to say you know i

00:25:39.500 I know men of all different shapes and sizes who are more or less aggressive

00:25:45.900 and there's no connection between physical size and power and aggression.

00:25:53.340 You don't think there's a connection between someone being bigger and stronger

00:25:56.280 and them being more threatening?

00:25:58.740 No, no, absolutely not.

00:26:00.940 I mean, I really don't think that people are programmed in that way.

00:26:07.180 I don't think, I mean, perhaps if we were living back in caveman times and we were carrying on in society as if our kind of animal instinct was coming to the fore, then perhaps.

00:26:21.100 But if you think about the way we encounter other people nowadays, it's not in the raw like that.

00:26:27.920 It tends to be in offices, in workplaces, on transport, et cetera.

00:26:33.240 And I don't think women are kind of automatically shying away from men based on their physical appearance.

00:26:40.620 Do you think that one of the positives of the Me Too campaign, because of course there are positives and negatives to every campaign,

00:26:46.140 is that it certainly exposed a certain boorishness in some men's behaviour, such as catcalling, for instance.

00:26:53.140 The argument would be, why should a woman walk down the street and be catcalled?

00:26:57.140 I mean that is intimidation isn't it really having a group of men leering and shouting at you

00:27:01.860 do you know I mean I wonder what kind of world this happens in I mean building sites which is

00:27:10.160 always the kind of stereotypical argument that this is where this goes on you know that poor

00:27:14.980 women can't possibly walk past building sites without men leaching at them and whistling at

00:27:20.380 them building contractors actually have written into their contracts nowadays that they are not

00:27:27.120 allowed to do this and this has been the case for many a year and uh you know maybe it's just me

00:27:34.620 well hold on you're a beautiful woman are you saying you've never experienced i wouldn't say

00:27:39.540 never but it's a lot less usual than it once was and you could say well i you know i'm 10 10 years

00:27:45.860 older obviously than i was 10 years ago but i think this idea that to to be a woman is just

00:27:51.920 just to confront this constant barrage of harassment you know i don't think that's true

00:27:57.980 well because not every woman hates it you know i can certainly well i can certainly say that

00:28:05.660 there have been times when i've walked down the street and somebody whistles at you and this is

00:28:10.140 probably a terrible thing to admit but it puts a spring in my step and a smile on my face and i

00:28:15.600 walked down the street feeling a bit happier than i did but essentially what you're talking about

00:28:20.220 is interaction between men and women and you think well where do we go then if we want to

00:28:26.680 stamp out these spontaneous interactions so I know Labour MPs have proposed a new law in the

00:28:33.240 Houses of Parliament that catcalling in the street should be outlawed as a misogynistic hate crime

00:28:38.980 so what do you do then how do you police that how much police time energy money do you put into

00:28:47.420 having a policeman or woman standing on every street corner kind of spotting the rogue whistler

00:28:54.620 and going up to give him a slap around the wrist you know that's not something I would I particularly

00:28:59.380 would see as a priority I'd rather they were out catching people with knives who were going to

00:29:05.020 commit knife crime than than random wolf whistlers so then people say well it's not a question of

00:29:09.900 having police standing on the corner it's a question of education so again you know what do

00:29:14.700 want do we want teachers in schools to say well i could teach you about the history of the judas

00:29:20.380 and the stewards but actually i'm not i'm going to sit down and we're going to re-educate you all

00:29:24.540 now about the correct way for boys and girls to behave in relation to each other you know

00:29:31.180 actually i think having spontaneity is not a bad thing and letting men and women have free speech

00:29:38.700 interact is not the worst thing in the world on the whistling on the catcalling you know i actually

00:29:45.120 think women are quite capable of giving as good as they get and certainly in the past yeah i made

00:29:51.720 a joke and i said there's been time it wasn't a joke it was true that there's times when it's put

00:29:55.760 smile on my face and i've walked down the street happy there's also been times i've been quite

00:29:59.640 capable of turning around and telling someone just to fuck off and leave me alone and they have done

00:30:05.460 and they've been quite shocked and they have left me alone and i don't think i'm like some rare type

00:30:10.740 of special woman who's got these magic powers because i'm capable of telling a man to fuck off

00:30:16.040 you know i i know plenty of other women who are just as capable of doing that

00:30:20.060 um so i mean that was all very very interesting um now you would you mentioned a little bit about

00:30:27.760 the gender pay gap and you said that it isn't as large as has been intimated by some feminists

00:30:33.880 could you go into that a little bit more for us yeah definitely so the gender pay gap i think is

00:30:38.560 a really really good example of how statistics can be used to prove anything that you want them

00:30:44.000 to prove at all because it all depends on what we measure so if you want to make the gender pay gap

00:30:50.700 seem massive then what you do is you look at the earnings of all men and the earnings of all women

00:30:56.480 and you compare them with each other and surprise surprise you find out that women earn less than

00:31:02.000 men but obviously what that's not taking into account is the hours that men and women work

00:31:07.240 the jobs that men and women do and this fact that we've already mentioned you know in the past men

00:31:13.620 and women weren't as equal as they are today so if you look at the top rungs of careers where people

00:31:19.720 have been working for 30 40 years they've reached the absolute top of their profession you are more

00:31:25.360 likely to find men in those positions so if you do that you take all men's wages all women's wages

00:31:31.580 you find a very very big gender pay gap but basically the more we compare like for like

00:31:36.920 so the more you look at men and women doing the same jobs for the same number of hours for the

00:31:42.980 same level of experience then the pay gap gets narrower and narrower and narrower and eventually

00:31:49.220 comparing like for like it disappears altogether there's no gender pay gap if you look at men and

00:31:55.980 women who are both doing the same job same length of time same number of hours each week

00:32:00.580 and of course that's the case when you just think about this for like a minute or two because for

00:32:07.140 one thing it's illegal so if you took two people who are doing the exact same job exact same hours

00:32:12.020 exact same level and the man was being paid more the woman could take this company the boss to

00:32:18.500 court you know it would be illegal they would be breaking the law but but there's an even more

00:32:22.820 common sense argument as well if if bosses could get away with paying women substantially less

00:32:30.840 for doing the exact same work as as men do but but just cheaper you know why would any boss

00:32:37.920 anywhere ever employ a man you know why would you get a man to do the job well it's interesting that

00:32:42.980 you say that because uh we are recording this and by the time this goes out it will be a couple of

00:32:47.040 weeks from today probably uh the the guest whose episode we've just released is uh a lady called

00:32:53.220 dr pippa malgram who's a good friend and a wonderful uh person she is a former advisor to

00:32:58.660 an american president founder of her own company etc and when we talked to her we asked her about

00:33:03.560 the pay gap as well and she said that as a speaker after her political career and all the rest of it

00:33:08.880 she actually had her own agent speaking agent say to her your metrics are great you're getting

00:33:13.940 better performances than your male counterparts but we cannot get you the same fees because you're

00:33:18.740 a woman so there is there is some i mean not everyone is rational not everyone i mean you say

00:33:26.240 it's illegal and it is but people do illegal stuff all the time right so there's probably a small

00:33:31.440 element um of of discrimination that is part of what causes the gender pay gap i totally hear your

00:33:36.960 argument about these averages being useless essentially in measuring the real gender pay gap

00:33:42.180 but

00:33:42.760 so my question

00:33:45.520 you think there's no

00:33:46.320 discrimination against

00:33:47.100 women at all

00:33:47.560 in the workplace

00:33:47.960 well I'll tell you what

00:33:48.580 I mean I don't know

00:33:50.080 the woman who you've

00:33:51.340 you've just interviewed

00:33:52.860 and I'm really

00:33:53.240 looking forward to

00:33:54.000 yeah I'll watch that

00:33:55.520 interview with great

00:33:56.240 interest but I mean

00:33:57.660 some personal advice

00:33:58.620 from me to her

00:33:59.480 you know and I'm sure

00:34:00.480 she probably won't

00:34:01.720 watch and won't

00:34:02.240 appreciate this

00:34:02.980 but if I was her

00:34:03.760 I'd sack that agent

00:34:04.560 that's exactly what

00:34:05.260 she did

00:34:05.560 well Pippa's great

00:34:06.860 she's not anyone

00:34:07.700 she's not someone

00:34:08.380 who would whine or

00:34:09.200 complain she took

00:34:10.020 action

00:34:10.360 sack that agent

00:34:11.520 get yourself another agent but my point is she's a very very accomplished very powerful person

00:34:16.600 who's who's made a great success of her life not every person is i'm not as accomplished or

00:34:22.620 successful and i'm you know so they're not everyone is capable necessarily of that not

00:34:28.300 everyone's in a position where their value is so high that they can do that definitely well i think

00:34:32.860 there's a couple of things to say here i mean for one thing i think that when we compare i mean so

00:34:39.200 We hear on the news, you know, about women who work at the BBC being paid a lot less than men.

00:34:45.440 So there was even a story about Martina Navratilova when she was doing the commentary at the Wimbledon,

00:34:52.340 at the tennis, being paid less than, I can't, Bjorn Borg?

00:34:56.520 No, McEnroe, John McEnroe, doing, likewise, doing coverage of Wimbledon.

00:35:04.160 Then you stop and you look at this, you know, McEnroe was a much bigger personality.

00:35:07.800 he was the one who was fronting the BBC's coverage

00:35:11.180 he was doing 10 times as much of the live broadcasts as Navratilova was

00:35:17.560 so again you just were not comparing like for like

00:35:20.800 and the way the story appears is like oh poor Martina Navratilova

00:35:24.560 isn't it terrible all this discrimination

00:35:26.820 so we had another story about Claire Foy and Matt Smith in The Crown

00:35:31.280 you know Claire Foy was being paid less than Matt Smith

00:35:34.120 isn't this terrible she was in the lead role etc etc

00:35:37.560 apart from before the crown who had heard of Claire Foy you know not me whereas Matt Smith

00:35:42.520 had been Doctor Who so when we talk about speakers celebrities sports stars their salaries are not

00:35:50.500 worked out in the same way I mean if you are working in McDonald's and you say oh you know

00:35:55.420 actually I'd like to negotiate a bit of a pay rise here good luck with that they show you the door

00:36:00.420 you know but this is not to say that I don't think there's any truth in what you're saying I do think

00:36:05.300 that there's a perhaps a confidence issue for women where they are less likely to push themselves

00:36:11.220 forward perhaps undervalue themselves um you know i've certainly been in cases particularly when i

00:36:18.120 speak at american universities and they'll ask me well what's your going rate and i'm like oh my god

00:36:23.400 i have no idea how to answer this question and the fear is if you well my fear is you pitch yourself

00:36:29.940 too high they're going to say no thank you and laugh and you end up underselling myself as a

00:36:35.140 result but you know what i think feminism today doesn't help women with that confidence problem

00:36:41.480 i think the more we hear it's so shit being a woman it's so awful the more you do then begin

00:36:48.500 to undervalue yourself you you think then when people undervalue you you think oh yes this is

00:36:55.160 just what life's like for being a woman because it's really awful and terrible so i think the

00:37:01.360 best thing feminism could do for women would be to say actually there's loads of opportunities

00:37:06.300 out there never been a better time to be a woman get out there take advantage of all these

00:37:12.760 opportunities don't sit at home underselling yourself that's a it's a very very good point

00:37:18.420 i mean if we just can focus a little bit on aging now i mean age i know i know but ageism is i mean

00:37:27.680 to me ageism is what is one of the prejudices we that is simply accepted in in our society it you

00:37:34.500 it's acceptable to go i've heard you know i've seen especially on social media supposed liberals

00:37:39.560 go what would he know he's just an old man yeah and just like oh what so experience counts for

00:37:44.800 nothing do you think that the ageism is is particularly more how can i put this it's more

00:37:50.880 severe when it comes to women than it is to men than it is for men do you know what i think it is

00:37:55.840 but i think a lot of that comes from other women comes from younger women and particularly comes

00:38:02.340 from younger feminists so i think for one thing that there is a whole um lack of appreciation for

00:38:10.680 what some of the second wave feminists some of the battles that second wave feminists i'm on about

00:38:15.580 people like germaine greer you know what the the battles that they had to win and the successes

00:38:21.800 that women can enjoy today as a result of the efforts of those second wave feminists is is

00:38:29.020 really shocking the lack of appreciation and the insults that are thrown and not just on social

00:38:35.060 media but even in the pages of the guardian it's quite acceptable it seems to describe

00:38:39.920 older second wave feminists as lobotomized you know that's just quite a an everyday statement

00:38:46.120 but um if you take somebody like the French film star Catherine Deneuve as she came out and

00:38:52.000 criticized Me Too she was completely slated for this you know this was shock horror you know she's

00:38:58.800 a traitor to the cause how could this woman you know she's clearly been lobotomized stupid old

00:39:06.200 woman how can she come out and say these things and that was feminists who were giving all this

00:39:12.240 criticism to her you know in the 1970s Catherine Deneuve wrote another letter to French newspapers

00:39:19.880 she wrote a letter signatory to a letter that said I have had an abortion and that was at a time when

00:39:26.020 abortion was illegal in France so not only was it morally taboo but it was breaking the law as well

00:39:32.180 she signed that letter and in signing that letter she helped bring about a change in the law and it

00:39:37.940 just seems ironic that when she wrote that letter 40 years ago it was the French establishment who

00:39:43.400 came down on her who insulted her who you know were treated her really badly 40 years later

00:39:50.620 it's feminists who were treating her in that way you know insulting her and there's no sense of

00:39:57.200 well, actually, maybe we should pay a bit of respect to a woman

00:40:01.580 who helped bring about some of the major gains that we've got today.

00:40:05.580 Well, it's interesting that you bring that up

00:40:06.780 because last week we interviewed Peter Tatchell, the gay rights activist,

00:40:09.720 and this is the question that I put to him.

00:40:11.480 I mean, do you not, when people are, like, trying to no-platform you

00:40:14.520 and call you a bigot, there must be a part of you that just goes,

00:40:18.640 how dare these people do that?

00:40:20.400 I mean, it's incredible that anyone would even try to just me.

00:40:23.400 But in terms of that, what do you make of this whole approach

00:40:26.600 where we're no longer really having conversations anymore.

00:40:30.100 It's just, if you don't agree with me,

00:40:32.540 you're ex-phobic, you're this, you're that,

00:40:35.360 you're a bigot, you're misogynistic, you're whatever.

00:40:38.280 So, for example, you can try and have a conversation

00:40:40.240 about the gender pay gap from a purely numbers point of view

00:40:43.880 without any personal involvement at all.

00:40:45.980 Yeah, good luck with that.

00:40:46.840 Yeah, that's my point.

00:40:48.740 So what do you make of the state of debate in our society today?

00:40:52.880 Terrible.

00:40:54.940 That unexpected answer.

00:40:56.600 No, I do. I think it's really bad. I mean, you know, go back a long, long way to when I was at school.

00:41:03.240 If I took part in debates or if we had discussion classes, maybe in my English lessons or something like that,

00:41:10.040 we kind of were taught that ad hominem was a really cheap form of attack if you are taking part in a debate,

00:41:18.920 that this wasn't the right way to go, but you had to look at what people were saying, think carefully, respond to their arguments.

00:41:24.900 and it seems as if it's completely the opposite that's the case nowadays that identity politics

00:41:31.080 means it's quite fair enough to judge people just on the basis of their physical appearance

00:41:37.580 so the phrase I really really hate one of the many phrases I really really hate

00:41:42.180 is check your privilege and check your privilege really means shut up because it means we're making

00:41:48.320 all kinds of assumptions about you based just on what you look like and on the basis of what you

00:41:54.020 look like we've determined that you've got kind of x number of privilege points therefore you are

00:41:59.520 not allowed to have a point of view or you're not allowed to express that point of view whatever

00:42:05.140 you're going to say is invalid just because of who you are and i think that's that it closes down

00:42:11.440 debate it's censorious and it means that that we never actually engage with one another's ideas

00:42:17.720 because we're just making assumptions based on on prejudice essentially and what do you think

00:42:23.940 we might be overreacting like a lot of these young people I mean in my head I'm still about 22

00:42:28.880 and I had a rude awakening the other week because I went and I did a student gig a comedy gig at a

00:42:35.080 university and I came there thinking well I'm a few years older than these guys and I turned up

00:42:40.460 and they all look about 12 you know so how much of it is it we're just forgetting that these people

00:42:46.200 young people who are idealistic as we once were probably they're a little bit naive they don't

00:42:52.000 have quite a lot of life experience and they're trying to make their mark in the world in which

00:42:56.320 really everything is pretty great anyway so if they want to change the world they really have to

00:43:01.040 you know focus on these tiny little issues in many cases do you think we're forgetting that

00:43:07.020 these are just kids and they need to have their own moment yeah i mean i'm i certainly hate the

00:43:12.860 label snowflake and it's not something that I like applying to young people and I think you know

00:43:20.520 we should be trying to be a bit more positive about young people and I certainly think that

00:43:26.640 idealism is not to be knocked and I think the idea that young people are idealistic that they

00:43:32.600 want to change the world that they want to make the world a better place is actually something

00:43:36.540 to celebrate but at the same time i think there's a real risk that we patronize them in in doing

00:43:43.780 that and i think actually engaging with their ideas on a political level and saying have you

00:43:51.660 not realized the problems with the line in which you're arguing i think is is a good thing to do

00:43:57.640 and i think that actually shows a lot more respect for young people rather than just kind of giving

00:44:03.820 them a metaphorical pat on the back and saying isn't that sweet that you want to judge people

00:44:10.920 on their appearance I think actually saying you know have you thought your aspiration to equality

00:44:18.540 is a good one but have you thought that you're maybe going about it the wrong way that there's

00:44:23.540 some problems with what you're arguing and I think for me the problem nowadays isn't really young

00:44:29.360 people as such but more the fact that an older generation kind of patronizes them and confirms

00:44:36.040 the worst in them if you like the worst instincts of young people i mean who doesn't want to shut

00:44:43.980 up people they disagree with i mean there's plenty of people i disagree with who i would

00:44:48.180 love to secretly don't tell anyone i would secretly love just abandon make go away you

00:44:54.540 You know, I think for all I'm saying, there's not an instinct in people.

00:44:58.320 You know, I do think that is you don't like what somebody's saying.

00:45:01.060 You want to shut them up. You want them to go away.

00:45:03.320 I'm like that way with Francis.

00:45:07.100 But I think part of growing up and maturing is that you realize that you can't just make bad ideas go away by wishing them away or by telling people just to shut up.

00:45:17.380 You know, you have to engage. You have to take place in the arguments.

00:45:20.360 and I think the problem for young people nowadays is that they're not allowed to go through that

00:45:25.220 maturation process because people are just saying oh yes you're absolutely right if you don't like

00:45:30.180 these bad ideas you're totally right we should just make them go away and if you want to ban

00:45:35.380 them that's right we'll let you ban these bad ideas. Do you find it quite worrying that the term

00:45:42.360 free speech is now being associated more and more with the far right with people like Katie Hopkins

00:45:47.080 and Tommy Robinson and so on and so forth.

00:45:49.740 That does worry me enormously.

00:45:52.200 I think it's appalling and shocking that that's the case.

00:45:56.420 And I think it's a real abdication of the left

00:45:59.960 that the left has kind of abandoned free speech to the right.

00:46:04.700 I don't think, I mean, for one thing, I think it's hypocritical.

00:46:08.040 I don't think the right in politics, whatever that means nowadays,

00:46:12.420 but I don't believe that the right are big proponents of free speech and you look back

00:46:19.720 through history it was traditionally it was the right that I say if you look at McCarthyism for

00:46:25.580 example in the US it was the right that wanted to censor and to clamp down on free speech and it

00:46:32.580 was the left who recognized that they needed free speech for every major political gain that we've

00:46:39.140 had in the past hundred what the past forever has come about through free speech rather than through

00:46:45.440 censorship and it was the civil rights movement it was all these these political struggles have

00:46:52.440 of the left traditionally have needed free speech and and the left should own free speech the left

00:47:00.760 should be saying you know free speech is is our principle and we want we do still have further to

00:47:07.140 go to make the world a better place as far as i'm concerned there's still things that that could be

00:47:12.680 done and we need free speech to be able to win more political victories in the future whereas

00:47:19.840 instead it seems to me that the left's just gone like that right hands up surrender um people on

00:47:25.260 the right the katie hopkins the tommy robinsons if you want free speech you can have it we want

00:47:31.300 bans and censorship to get our way and that is really makes me feel physically sick i mean i

00:47:39.240 think that is so horrible and it i think it puts left-wing people in a really awkward situation

00:47:46.500 because you then appear to have these horrible bedfellows people who i would never in a million

00:47:52.600 years want to be getting into bed with and yet that seems to be who people who are arguing for

00:47:58.740 free speech now automatically appear to be allied to and and that's tragic but unfortunately that's

00:48:04.760 politics you know and you have to kind of hold your nose i think and still stand up for what

00:48:09.080 you believe in irrespective of who else tries to pretend they're on your side and why do you think

00:48:15.040 the left is unwilling to uh to stand up for free speech because i mean peter tatchell who as i said

00:48:21.060 we interviewed that the other week his point was exactly the point that you've just made which is

00:48:25.700 in his time when he was at the beginning of his fight for equality for gay people or women etc

00:48:32.060 he was fighting almost for free speech first because that was the method by which you then

00:48:37.440 achieved the equality for for people why is the left which is so focused on ensuring everyone's

00:48:44.260 well-being which are all great ideals taking care of everybody etc minority groups why have they

00:48:49.740 abandoned the pursuit of free speech as the method by which you achieve those things and has resorted

00:48:54.940 to censorship and almost authoritarianism for something? Well, great question. I mean, I think

00:49:00.160 for one thing, resorting to authoritarianism is a damn sight easier than actually fighting for free

00:49:06.700 speech. Because if you're on a university campus, for example, it's a lot easier to go and run to

00:49:13.080 the vice chancellor, the head of student experience, whoever, and say, I don't want this speaker to

00:49:18.120 come onto my campus than it is to actually have the arguments out with the person who's coming,

00:49:24.260 who you disagree with so on the one hand I think it's just a bit intellectually lazy you know it's

00:49:29.240 easier to call for ban to call for censorship and you can have the kind of moral righteousness on

00:49:34.920 your side when you're doing that than it is to actually win the arguments I think there's

00:49:39.840 something far more fundamental even than just intellectual laziness to believe in free speech

00:49:44.900 is to believe in people as far as I'm concerned it's to believe that people can be trusted

00:49:49.940 because i think we make a mistake if we think that free speech is just about the rights of

00:49:55.040 the person who wants to talk to me free speech is far more about the right of people who want to

00:50:00.620 hear a particular argument being put forward and if you believe that then you have to believe that

00:50:06.920 people are capable of hearing arguments not hearing arguments and turning into some kind of

00:50:13.660 moronic mob who just act out in a robotic way you know if they hear somebody from the far right

00:50:19.340 they're going to automatically be brainwashed and like think completely uncritically and just turn

00:50:24.880 into some far right person themselves you need to have some faith that people are capable of hearing

00:50:31.100 arguments of dealing with things that they disagree with of reaching their own conclusions

00:50:36.000 that people are fundamentally sensible you think a lot of it plays into the fact that people are

00:50:41.200 scared because people nowadays they're terrified of being labeled a racist a sexist a homophobe

00:50:47.320 whatever it is online and if you expose yourself to views that deem to be in inverted commas

00:50:54.560 controversial you may realize you're not as secure in your own opinions as you thought you were

00:50:59.460 and actually it turns out that you can change your mind. And I think people worry about changing

00:51:05.040 their mind and changing your mind is difficult and a painful thing to do. Yeah I think there's

00:51:11.320 a lot of truth in in what you're saying um you know i think it comes back down to this idea that

00:51:18.080 it is easier to ban things and i think there is a real fear of being accused of racism of sexism

00:51:26.120 of how this might how you might appear to be in the outside world and and you know i think

00:51:32.680 standing up for free speech standing up for what you believe in um is not easy you know and i kind

00:51:38.780 I wish sometimes it was a lot easier to do this but but I think you do have to ultimately have

00:51:44.580 the courage of your convictions and and fight for what you believe in and do you feel that you

00:51:50.120 personally have an extra responsibility on that front because you're a woman and you get more of

00:51:55.600 well you don't get as much of a hearing as perhaps you feel you deserve but you get more of a fair

00:52:00.580 hearing than say a man standing up and saying exactly the same things as you are yeah I think

00:52:05.680 that's true i i definitely think that's true i i don't know about whether it gives me more

00:52:10.800 responsibility or not um but i definitely think i'm i think a challenge to feminism that comes

00:52:18.580 from me is perhaps taken more seriously or maybe not taken more seriously i wish taken more seriously

00:52:24.080 perhaps less difficult to ignore than smear yes yeah i mean i'm very aware that if men were to say

00:52:31.560 what i say about things like the gender pay gap or especially about the me too movement then they

00:52:37.440 would just be written off well of course they're saying that they're men they're defending their

00:52:40.620 own interests they're just irredeemably sexist and and terrible people whereas if i say it it's it is

00:52:48.640 less difficult for people to to ignore perhaps yeah i think that's a fantastic place to wrap up

00:52:56.340 the interview it's been a great conversation before we let you go joanna just one question

00:52:59.920 we always like to ask our guests and feel free to go anywhere you want with this at all is there

00:53:04.540 one thing that you think no one's talking about that we really ought to be talking about today

00:53:08.640 i think um i don't know about not talking about it but something that to me i think is an

00:53:15.240 increasingly big issue and i know it's the one thing that i say at the moment in a lifetime

00:53:22.340 spent saying lots and lots of controversial things the thing that people really have the

00:53:26.520 biggest problem with me saying is criticizing university consent classes and sex and relationships

00:53:33.760 education in schools and i think there's so much emphasis on and it comes from me too and it comes

00:53:41.280 from feminism uh and it also comes from this belief that people are stupid and ignorant and

00:53:46.860 left to their own devices you can't argue with that that's just fact that's just fact let's be

00:53:52.100 honest have you been on twitter come on but this idea that you leave people to their own devices

00:53:58.840 and they just abuse and rape each other and you need someone to step in and actually tell young

00:54:04.540 men that raping people is wrong i mean it's bizarre because we don't tell them that murdering people

00:54:09.580 is wrong we kind of assume that they have enough of a moral compass to know that murdering people

00:54:15.280 is wrong and yet there's this idea that there is a correct way to conduct your sex life there's a

00:54:20.580 correct way to negotiate getting someone into bed with you and we have to teach young people these

00:54:25.320 kind of scripts to rehearse in the bedroom and i think that's going completely uncriticized

00:54:31.000 and i think that is a conversation that really badly needs to be had fantastic stuff well your

00:54:38.000 book is called women versus family your latest book is called women versus feminism you're on

00:54:41.880 twitter at joe williams 293 joe williams 293 i'm constantin kitchen i'm at constantin kitchen i'm

00:54:48.760 francis foster i'm at failing human um and thank you very much for watching the podcast or listening

00:54:54.860 to it if you've enjoyed it uh please give us a rating five stars say something nice uh tell a

00:55:00.280 friend about it we are on itunes we are on what's the new one the pocket one pocket cast i think is

00:55:06.780 it pocket cast i can never i can get on that or you can yeah yeah our producer doesn't know either

00:55:11.740 we're screwed yeah he's just looking at us blankly that's what happens when you when you're

00:55:16.520 And of course, we're on YouTube.

00:55:18.080 Do subscribe to our YouTube channel.

00:55:19.560 We put it out an episode every week.

00:55:21.280 And this has been a fantastic episode.

00:55:22.880 Thank you so much for coming on, Jonas.

00:55:24.160 Thank you very much.

TRIGGERnometry - June 11, 2018

Dr Joanna Williams on Feminism, #MeToo & the Gender Pay Gap

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