TRIGGERnometry - Dr Steve Peters： How to Overcome Anxiety and Build Confidence

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00:00:30.000 What we're calling psychopathic, which is Disocial Personality Disorder, that's common, that's not unusual.

00:00:37.100 The estimate, when we look at this, is around 1 in 200 people.

00:00:41.460 That's why I'm saying it's common.

00:00:42.320 A lot of people.

00:00:43.300 Exactly.

00:00:50.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:52.620 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:53.920 I'm Constantine Kitten.

00:00:54.960 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:00.800 Our brilliant guest today is a consultant psychiatrist and the author of a number of

00:01:04.600 very influential books, including The Chimp Paradox. He's worked with elite athletes,

00:01:08.720 he's worked with psychopaths. His latest book is called The Path Through the Jungle.

00:01:12.260 Dr. Steve Peters, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:14.040 Thank you for inviting me.

00:01:15.360 It's a real great pleasure to have you on. As I mentioned, some of the things that you've

00:01:19.220 written in the past have been incredibly influential in our culture, the way we think

00:01:22.620 about personal development, performance, anxiety, all sorts of other things. But before we get into

00:01:28.380 all of that, for anyone who doesn't know you, we have a very big international audience.

00:01:32.000 Who are you? How are you where you are? What has been the journey through life that leads you to

00:01:35.780 be sitting here talking to us? Okay, in a minute. Yes. It doesn't have to be a minute. Take your

00:01:40.500 time. Take your time. I'm a consultant psychiatrist, so I'm a doctor, a medical doctor, and I trained

00:01:47.120 in mental health having gone through the system and then eventually ended up doing work with

00:01:53.140 psychopaths as you would locally call them but before that I worked a long time in the NHS as a

00:01:57.980 consultant and I'll be working with people with anxieties depressions many of the common illnesses

00:02:03.080 that we recognize and I ended up in forensics on the back of that I sort of decided to explain to

00:02:10.440 people how their minds function because what I found a lot of people who came through the door

00:02:14.600 didn't need a doctor in my opinion they needed to understand themselves understand what was going

00:02:19.760 on in their head certainly didn't need medication and so that led me to working half the time with

00:02:26.540 medication half the time with a model the chimp model to try and get people to start managing

00:02:31.840 their minds emotions thinkings behaviors and it escalated so I teach at Sheffield University

00:02:37.400 I'm a professor there and the students loved the model they related to it so they're really behind

00:02:44.580 the chimp paradox they push me to say you've got to write this and put it in a book so so what is

00:02:49.780 the chimp paradox tell everybody if you look at the brain and try and simplify it because obviously

00:02:56.900 it's very complex i'm a neuroscientist and if you start doing this you could be all week trying to

00:03:01.340 just make you know something of parts of the brain so what i looked at if you look on scanners

00:03:06.060 functional mri scanners simplifying it you end up with three systems in the brain so in the fetus

00:03:12.980 Do you want all this science?

00:03:14.020 Yes.

00:03:14.280 In the fetus, what you find is within eight weeks,

00:03:17.760 the orbitofrontal cortex just above your eyes,

00:03:20.320 which is like a primitive defense system, a survival system,

00:03:23.980 starts to develop eight weeks into fetal life.

00:03:26.660 And in the center of the brain,

00:03:28.020 there are lots of areas which support the orbitofrontal cortex

00:03:31.240 in making quick decisions for survival.

00:03:33.960 But it does the thinking bit and the final decision making.

00:03:37.880 So you've got a leader and it calls on another team,

00:03:40.960 which is I called it the computer system

00:03:43.220 because that doesn't make decisions as such

00:03:44.960 it just feeds back information

00:03:47.260 to sort of influence a decision

00:03:49.200 so that was two systems

00:03:50.860 what we've got as a problem as human beings

00:03:53.360 is the third system

00:03:55.340 came in, usually it's there

00:03:57.360 but it's not developed around two year old

00:03:59.200 which is why we get infuriated

00:04:01.420 with young children who keep saying

00:04:03.120 why, everything's why

00:04:04.980 because that part of the brain has now started

00:04:07.080 to wake up and it's now questioning

00:04:09.320 So you've now got a separate system.

00:04:11.600 Now, the first system, the quick-fire one, impulsivity, really,

00:04:16.040 we share with chimpanzees.

00:04:17.880 We don't actually share the same system with orangutans, gorillas, and bonobos,

00:04:21.820 which are all under the hominid great ape group.

00:04:24.220 We don't.

00:04:24.940 So the chimp was peculiar.

00:04:27.100 And that's been published in 2018.

00:04:28.980 But I knew this, talking to hominid specialists back in the 90s.

00:04:32.400 They said, there's something really strange about us and the chimpanzee.

00:04:36.080 So I called it the inner chimp.

00:04:38.660 because the chimpanzee uses the same behaviors and attitudes and shares the same emotions

00:04:43.680 when we use that common system so that was where it came from but the the system that came in a bit

00:04:49.440 late to the party the chimpanzee has it but tends never to use it and in fairness without sounding

00:04:54.760 cruel a lot of people don't use it they just work with the chimp system so life is very impulsive

00:04:59.920 instant gratification no really consequence or planning but when we get to round two the other

00:05:05.700 system's got the chance to develop so if we promote that in two-year-olds three-year-olds

00:05:10.160 then we see that system starting to battle back so i called that the human system and that was it

00:05:16.820 that was the chimp model it was saying we have this inner chimp which is a machine which will

00:05:21.480 act and think for us but we actually have arrived we start around two-year-old and that's when we

00:05:27.820 start laying our memories down so we don't actually have memories until we're about four

00:05:31.220 because our system can't do it.

00:05:33.080 So we arrive as a human

00:05:34.240 and it's an alternative system to the chimp.

00:05:37.320 So you have two options.

00:05:38.400 You can either let nature run its course

00:05:40.080 and be impulsive and work with that

00:05:42.000 or you can actually choose to work with a different system

00:05:44.620 which works on rationality, logic,

00:05:47.180 forward planning, consequence,

00:05:48.840 very, very different approach to life.

00:05:51.500 And the computer's just neutral in the middle.

00:05:54.160 So making it simple,

00:05:55.560 chimp, human and a computer

00:05:57.460 that you can both access

00:05:58.580 that's neutral ground, program it.

00:06:01.220 But the chimp does have some benefits to it.

00:06:04.760 Like, I'm reading the book by Malcolm Gladwell called Blink,

00:06:07.640 and he's talking about the importance of instinct

00:06:09.960 and how a lot of the time your first instinct about something

00:06:13.440 or a situation can often be the correct one.

00:06:16.520 And that's where the chimp comes in.

00:06:18.500 Yeah, it's never negative, and that's the title,

00:06:20.760 The Chimp Paradox.

00:06:21.920 It's your best friend and worst enemy.

00:06:23.780 But if you start delving into it and trying to understand

00:06:26.180 what it's doing, it's always on side.

00:06:28.380 It's never negative.

00:06:29.340 it's just that we don't know how to manage it so a lot of the work the chimp is doing is trying to

00:06:35.520 say if we do this we'll we'll be okay whereas your job is to say well hang on there's an alternative

00:06:40.400 we're doing it so the chimp's never negative as such but if we allow it to run it's working on

00:06:45.960 jungle principles so the chimp will work with dominance behaviors it won't manage drives well

00:06:51.900 it'll just fulfill them and it may be insatiable so for example if food is probably the commonest

00:06:57.100 that I use because many people struggle with that we don't eat the right things we eat too much

00:07:01.720 generally so you can see that's an out of control drive and the chimp's not going to manage it it's

00:07:06.460 just saying we've got to eat to survive whereas our job is to say well actually we don't need this

00:07:10.960 much food to survive and manage the drive but the drive isn't bad there's nothing bad about the chimp

00:07:17.160 it just needs managing it can be destructive if we don't manage it and why is it that we're never

00:07:22.760 taught about this, Steve? Why is it that we're not sat down and having this explained to us?

00:07:27.860 Because I'm someone who struggles with food and in particular anxiety and the two are linked.

00:07:33.480 And it's only when I was reading The Chimp Paradox that a light bulb went off in my head

00:07:37.600 and your current book was like, oh, my anxiety is just the chimp that's being unleashed and I'm not

00:07:43.900 controlling it. And that's why I end up in the situations that I do or I behave the way I do,

00:07:50.020 which are ultimately destructive to leading a happy life.

00:07:53.380 Okay, quick therapy now.

00:07:55.340 Yes.

00:07:56.060 One really big thing you said there.

00:07:57.320 Shall I leave?

00:07:59.080 No, no, no.

00:08:00.220 You might need to support him.

00:08:01.760 One of the things you just said there is almost like a fatal error,

00:08:04.940 so I'm being a bit severe to try and drive the point home.

00:08:07.020 Of course.

00:08:07.320 You use the word control.

00:08:08.920 You can't control.

00:08:10.500 So if you keep saying, I can control my chimp,

00:08:13.040 there's an implication that you're failing in some way.

00:08:15.640 Once you use that word, I avoid that word like the plague,

00:08:18.580 and I keep pushing that in the new book to say you manage the chimp which is a skill so you're

00:08:23.900 never going to control your eating and you never control your anxiety I don't want you to I want

00:08:28.880 you to manage them but I think what you're implying immediately is that this battle going on

00:08:34.560 well actually doesn't have to be perceived that way it can be your the chimp's your best friend

00:08:39.740 and he's saying to you I'm getting anxious right you're not getting anxious it's being imposed

00:08:44.540 upon you but instead of saying right there's this anxiety you need to step back and say what is the

00:08:50.020 chimp trying to tell me because the chimp sees a jungle so therefore like with athletes I work

00:08:56.920 with if you said they're going out to compete you expect the chimp to panic that's pretty normal

00:09:01.820 and healthy because it doesn't realize it's just a competition as far as it's concerned you're going

00:09:06.700 into battle I could die out here so they'll get severe feelings of apprehension or anxiety which

00:09:12.880 the chimp will keep moving with and if we then model ourselves up with a machine and start saying

00:09:18.100 I'm an anxious person then we can't work with it we can't manage it because we're blaming ourselves

00:09:23.720 so it brings in lots of feelings of failure and guilt and instead of saying right we know who I

00:09:28.880 am we know the chimp is meant to be anxious it's meant to do that it's doing a great job and so

00:09:34.680 instead of being concerned or engaging the emotion we should be stopping saying thank you for the

00:09:39.540 emotion you've given me an emotion let me explain what's happening so you actually relate to that

00:09:44.680 part of the brain explain it's just sport you know and and then it depends on your beliefs now

00:09:50.440 as it gets complex and i think one of the key things i'd say is when people listen to this

00:09:55.580 the biggest thing i say to people is you're unique only you can work out what's going on your head

00:10:01.140 so the anxiety message from the chimp in sport for one sports person may be very different message

00:10:07.380 to another one so when i work with people i've got to work out what is it that their chimp is

00:10:12.940 trying to tell and what's their brain trying to say so as an example to try and bring it to life

00:10:18.360 you you two could be elite sports people both doing the same event let's say highly unlikely

00:10:23.000 we're using our imagination so if you were elite sports people say the 800 meters yeah and you

00:10:30.440 both said we're getting really too anxious before it and it's just terrible and that's making

00:10:35.020 decision making in the race poor which is what you'd expect because the chimp said i don't want

00:10:39.520 to be here so it could go anywhere but when you say why are you why is your chimp getting anxious

00:10:44.420 what's the message for you it could be that this defines you yeah and if you fail on this everybody

00:10:50.500 knows that you're actually a failure so your chimp i'm being extreme again to arrive the point

00:10:55.340 that's totally different to yours which may be i'm trying to please my coach my parents

00:11:01.020 and you start thinking well hang on that's very different reason the chimps are getting anxious

00:11:06.420 so I can't then give you right this is what we'll do I can't do that maybe other sports psychologists

00:11:12.400 or the specialists can what I have to do is try and delve into your mind and work with you and

00:11:17.480 say what's really going on and what are the underpinning beliefs here what's the agenda

00:11:21.640 that your chimp is bringing to the table so often you'll get sports people trying to prove to

00:11:27.120 themself where you may get another group trying to prove to others and that's very different again

00:11:32.960 so the work i'd do then would be well let's look at self-esteem in the former one and say why do

00:11:38.100 you need to use sport to do that and in the latter one you've got to start saying well why would you

00:11:43.540 want to prove your valuable abilities to other people why do you want to demonstrate it what's

00:11:49.680 going on so so you get different approaches and i can't work with a formula i have to work with

00:11:57.840 the individual broadway's smash hit the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise is coming to

00:12:04.400 toronto the true story of a kid from brooklyn destined for something more featuring all the

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00:12:15.560 beautiful the next musical mega hit is here the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise now through

00:12:21.640 june 7th 2026 at the princess of wells theater get tickets at mirvish.com so steve we've got we're

00:12:31.400 talking about anxiety and we've got the chimp and the chimp is always anxious because it's there to

00:12:36.080 spot dangers to spot hang on i'll keep correcting you because yeah correct it's not always anxious

00:12:41.480 is it's getting anxious when it perceives

00:12:43.500 there's something not right.

00:12:44.860 Okay, right.

00:12:45.920 So it's perception is something's not right.

00:12:48.080 But that could be because you, as the human,

00:12:51.820 haven't done your job in tidying the computer up.

00:12:54.540 So there may be a belief that's prodding the chimp.

00:12:56.720 The chimp may be just sat back, relaxed,

00:12:59.100 and then suddenly, what I'm calling the gremlins,

00:13:01.020 the destructive beliefs it holds, prod it.

00:13:03.480 So, for example, let's say we go back to that,

00:13:05.300 which is common, someone has low self-esteem.

00:13:07.620 They don't feel as good as other people.

00:13:09.100 They're always feeling vulnerable.

00:13:10.360 right so that the chimp now puts in the computer you're not actually as good as others and you will

00:13:15.980 be found out so in business people i meet this every day and it'll be imposter syndrome you know

00:13:22.940 they wake up in the night often that's when the chimp said it's most active and the humans asleep

00:13:27.820 and then they feel this devastating emotional gut-wrenching feeling that i cannot do my job

00:13:32.740 they're going to find me out i'm going to make mistakes i'm fraudulent i'm an imposter

00:13:36.760 the chimp is doing its job when it does that what should be happening is when we wake up we have to

00:13:43.240 say right what are the beliefs in my computer here you know one of them can be that people

00:13:48.600 who do this job are perfect which is ridiculous and mistakes are things that can't be redeemed

00:13:54.820 you know and now i've got to tease out because it could be you've got a boss who says you make

00:13:59.560 a mistake you're sacked i'd probably say get another job but uh but but you can see why that

00:14:04.780 belief is in there but if the belief has come from you and the boss is saying look if you make

00:14:08.400 a mistake we make a mistake but until you turf that belief out the chimp's innocent it's not

00:14:15.080 getting anxious it's this little gremlin it's a belief that's needs turfing out so i like to tidy

00:14:20.600 computers up in people and i usually explain that if i worked here with one of you i would expect

00:14:25.620 to find a minimum of five quite serious gremlins that you're holding on to which are causing

00:14:30.620 problems so in your case if you're saying i struggle at times my chimp gets anxious and i

00:14:36.220 get this anxiety state imposed upon me that you'll guarantee that you've got probably at least five

00:14:41.600 or six very powerful beliefs which are really destroying you and and you're probably not aware

00:14:47.680 of them until they get pointed out and you're saying oh probably i'm thinking that and then

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00:16:16.280 So that being the case, what happens with a panic attack?

00:16:21.460 is that the anxiety becoming too much is that the chimp overriding everything and going into a sense

00:16:28.760 of meltdown well panic attacks uh have different causes but probably the commonest cause is um

00:16:35.720 something has happened an event has happened in your life which has not been addressed

00:16:39.180 and you haven't processed the event either um practically or mostly emotionally so i can give

00:16:47.460 you an example of a situation where you might get a panic attack and this is fairly common so I've

00:16:52.680 seen this many times you get we do get sudden deaths in people in the 40s very unexpected rather

00:16:58.800 tragic but if you've got a best friend who's in the 40s who dies suddenly and you've never really

00:17:03.400 thought about your own mortality suddenly it comes to your like front of your mind and if you don't

00:17:09.060 address that and just squash it down the mind now starts to kick so this is the mind saying well

00:17:15.140 you've not processed this so in reality the computer's behind most of this because it's

00:17:20.640 saying this is unprocessed material so it throws it back which then creates the chimp saying there's

00:17:26.240 something wrong here and and we have to look at you look at your own mortality look at put in

00:17:30.800 perspective what happened which is very rare for someone in the 40s to die suddenly um but if you

00:17:36.100 don't process that and your belief is i'm now very vulnerable and this could happen at any moment

00:17:40.700 and I've never really prepared myself,

00:17:43.840 then you can imagine that every so often

00:17:45.840 you get this sudden panic attack out of the blue.

00:17:48.800 And it's your mind trying to say you need to sort this out.

00:17:51.700 The problem we've got with panic attacks,

00:17:53.220 we get quite technical, is sometimes when you find it,

00:17:56.280 you often can't find what caused them.

00:17:58.600 You can settle the machine down

00:18:00.440 so the computing chip can be brought down again

00:18:03.180 just by simple techniques.

00:18:05.420 But ideally, if you find the problem,

00:18:07.380 the trouble with panic attacks is they have a ripple effect.

00:18:10.140 So even when we sort the problem out, say it were that that was a problem and we sort it out, then what you'll find is you still keep getting panic attacks.

00:18:17.820 So people say, I'm not cured. It's not worked. And you say, well, no, that the way that a panic attack works, it's like a learned behavior.

00:18:25.620 So it keeps on happening, but it gets less and less. And you just manage them as the brain presents it.

00:18:31.140 And you're trying to remind the brain, we have dealt with this.

00:18:34.120 So there's ways of disengaging panic attacks and putting them in perspective.

00:18:40.080 So panic attacks are a bit of a peculiar one.

00:18:42.300 They're different and they're different tracks in the brain to anxiety.

00:18:45.740 Anxiety and panic attacks use different pathways.

00:18:48.780 Steve, I spent most of my 20s and early 30s

00:18:51.280 kind of doing all sorts of different personal development stuff

00:18:54.280 and learning to get out of my own way.

00:18:57.000 And I found that very useful.

00:18:58.860 But I was going to ask you, how much of this is societal?

00:19:01.900 Because, for example, for me, I know that one of the things

00:19:04.480 that I had to get out of my way in relation to

00:19:07.140 was the feeling that I don't want to stand out.

00:19:12.220 I don't want to create a YouTube show

00:19:14.340 because then hundreds of thousands of people

00:19:16.060 are going to see it.

00:19:17.640 And I remember reading something by Desmond Morris

00:19:19.900 many, many, many years ago

00:19:21.080 in which he talks about how the fear of public speaking

00:19:24.240 is a very natural thing

00:19:25.660 because historically speaking,

00:19:27.580 if a bunch of your peers were staring at you in silence,

00:19:31.440 that was not usually a good position to be in.

00:19:34.280 And I think a lot of people feel some of those things.

00:19:37.640 So if you want to be successful,

00:19:39.960 if you think that you want to create something

00:19:41.860 that's going to make an impact on the world,

00:19:43.440 that's going to contribute to other people's lives

00:19:45.320 in a positive way,

00:19:46.580 how do you get out of your way

00:19:48.440 so that you don't constantly watch

00:19:51.620 what other people might think or say or do,

00:19:54.040 particularly in the social media world that we live in now?

00:19:56.200 I mean, everyone's unique.

00:19:58.260 So again, I can't give you a,

00:20:00.140 oh, this is the answer.

00:20:01.040 I don't want to do that.

00:20:02.540 And maybe other people can.

00:20:03.840 I can't do that.

00:20:04.700 So what I'd say is there are different forces coming in here in your brain.

00:20:08.100 So what you've got when I look at the computer system

00:20:10.660 is actually multiple areas offering opinions.

00:20:14.380 So, for example, intuition is a separate part of the brain

00:20:17.620 which reminds you of what you've experienced and recognises it.

00:20:20.620 That's very different to the reward pathway

00:20:23.260 which says that I'm anticipating this is going to be good news.

00:20:26.200 That's very different to your anxiety tracks

00:20:28.280 which is saying this could all go wrong.

00:20:29.800 so all of these previous experiences and beliefs and opinions and behaviors are all coming together

00:20:36.260 and depends which are the most powerful but the fundamentally you're mentioning which Desmond

00:20:41.300 Morris who was a zoologist in the past was looking and saying are we just the naked ape that was it

00:20:46.400 that was his stance and there's truth in that I'm saying the same thing it's not new we know that we

00:20:51.940 are part of the hominids the troop drive chimpanzees in the wild must belong to a troop they cannot be

00:20:58.720 alone if they're alone they're very vulnerable from attacks from other troops or leopards so

00:21:03.980 that's their main enemies so they're in trouble so they must stay in troops so what nature has

00:21:09.200 done is given us this drive to find and stay with the troop but if you were the alpha male in the

00:21:16.000 troop you have to assess whether we're worth keeping because if we're weak we're using up

00:21:22.120 useful resources for food you will exclude us so a weak male would be excluded that's a death

00:21:28.600 sense because another troop's unlike to take a male they might take females but they won't take

00:21:33.540 males so if you think about it there's this instinct that i've got to keep proving myself to

00:21:38.640 you otherwise if you reject me i die so it's extremely powerful so therefore our chimp brain

00:21:45.660 really wants approval from the people around it but we've gone further than that said our troops

00:21:51.060 the whole world so now we're feared of everybody and everything they say so i'll give a more

00:21:56.460 personal example when i used to teach the chimp paradox model and uh to students i was doing that

00:22:02.400 in the 90s i didn't bring it out till 2012 um and that was because i i feared in a sense my chimp

00:22:08.260 was saying well what the academic's going to say you invented a little chimp and a little you know

00:22:12.240 how ridiculous this noddy um but it got to the point where my human brain was sort of saying you

00:22:18.000 know really you can't not do this because i know how powerful it's been for a lot of people and

00:22:23.280 That humbles me a lot.

00:22:24.720 And I think I need to develop this.

00:22:26.480 And those who resonate, brilliant.

00:22:27.960 Those who don't, fine.

00:22:29.040 Just throw it out of the rubbish.

00:22:30.700 But when I brought it out, I had a chat with my chimp.

00:22:34.420 And I said, here's the deal.

00:22:36.300 So I'm now overriding the troop.

00:22:38.380 Because my chimp, I've told, not everyone's in your troop.

00:22:41.140 So don't worry about them.

00:22:42.540 So I select my troop.

00:22:44.200 That gives me a protection from the world.

00:22:46.060 So I don't see, with all respect, you two in my troop.

00:22:49.200 I don't know you.

00:22:50.140 So you're given a caution.

00:22:51.440 so your opinion sounds awful doesn't matter to me you can't affect me because that's what i've

00:22:56.380 learned as well it doesn't sound awful at all you can't live your life by worrying of what people

00:22:59.920 but most people do and that's why social media is very powerful but for me i said to my chimp

00:23:05.580 if 10 people write to say this book has changed my life i would be so happy i'd be so happy

00:23:11.460 um and so my chimp agreed so i got 10 people wrote uh it was like that's it i always go back

00:23:17.620 to that we knew that there will be people who criticize and like you're saying none of us want

00:23:22.000 to be hit by the media of any kind and and drag through the mud or attacked or belittled or

00:23:28.300 because that's something a chimp wouldn't want to do for the reasons i've given you because you're

00:23:32.940 vulnerable suddenly and you want to be in the trope and be loved but one of the things i've

00:23:37.020 pushed is this to the one in five rule you know we know that no matter who you are somebody won't

00:23:41.860 like you so you know once you work that out why are you worrying yeah it's true it's about four

00:23:47.700 and five for us but you're right steve let me ask you something else because you bring up what i

00:23:51.980 have to say one in five love you regardless yes people need to know and there's a lot of really

00:23:56.440 great people around i'm just kidding okay we have absolutely lovely fans so i'm very pleased with

00:24:00.900 what i was going to ask you is i think you you bring up a very profound thing about the world

00:24:06.340 that we live in today, which is the inevitability of tribalism. And we see it in politics. We see

00:24:13.400 it happening right now around the world with all the different conflicts that are kicking off and

00:24:17.340 all of that. We've seen it over the last five years in this country in terms of the political

00:24:22.480 landscape. We've seen it in America. We see it everywhere. That tribalism is a very powerful

00:24:28.880 instinct in human beings for the reasons that you've just explained. What can we do in the

00:24:34.680 modern world to to to de-tribalize ourselves can we do anything or do we just need to work with it

00:24:40.720 I mean I'm going back to what I said originally this is that the right at the beginning when it

00:24:44.380 was like a light bulb moment to me back in the early 90s where you're thinking oh wow these

00:24:48.840 functional scanners are showing me something here that tribal instinct is not within the human being

00:24:54.720 it's within the chimp and that's so important to distinguish we don't have that hence we have an

00:25:01.560 alternative that's why so right at the beginning when your brain develops nature's giving those

00:25:06.620 but whatever is an alternative and that's how we've got out the jungle we've decided to work

00:25:11.440 with our humans which don't have prejudice which do respect diversity which are peacemakers in

00:25:16.840 general you can have people who have unpleasant humans we'll talk about the chimps nice but in

00:25:22.540 general the rule is we have an option here so if i want to go with my chimp brain it's likely to be

00:25:28.560 divisive because it will form little groups and and curry favor that's what the chimp's meant to

00:25:33.420 do again not everybody's chimp does that you know so but most are built that way so we are yes we

00:25:40.500 talk about i come from this town or this city or football is a good example where you know this is

00:25:46.120 my club and it gets very passionate you know you've joined that um and i'm not saying that's

00:25:51.600 wrong i'm just saying like at the beginning with food the food drives amazingly good it keeps us

00:25:56.840 alive but it does need managing and the same with the joining football clubs or whatever as long as

00:26:02.960 you manage it and recognize it for what it is it's brilliant you know long may it continue but if you

00:26:08.920 get it out of hand then it becomes tribal and really unhealthy so my question is concerning

00:26:15.840 social media because we've touched on it at points steve what do you and look again debunk all the

00:26:21.740 nonsense that i'm speaking if it's nonsense but it seems to me social media appeals to the very

00:26:37.000 worst of the chimp it appeals to instant gratification you know a state of anxiety

00:26:44.760 constantly wanting to be accepted how do we live it in this world and keep our chimps calm

00:26:51.360 when we have access to something that is trying to cut out the human

00:26:56.040 and is always trying to activate the chimp in a negative manner.

00:26:59.720 Again, up to people what they want to do.

00:27:01.340 One is disengage.

00:27:02.240 I don't do social media, so I don't know what it says.

00:27:04.820 I'm happy without it, but I'm an old guy.

00:27:08.100 I think for young people it's tough,

00:27:09.960 but I think going back to what you said,

00:27:11.660 what do we really want to start instilling in young people?

00:27:14.880 And I think we're not doing this.

00:27:16.920 I'd love it to see it happen,

00:27:18.440 is emotional skills to start discerning.

00:27:20.880 well this is an opinion it's not a fact and and we will get facts apparently presented which are

00:27:27.300 inaccurate about us we'll also get comments made which are unkind because there are unkind people

00:27:33.000 around there's quite a lot of them so we're not going to change those people we've got to learn

00:27:37.140 how do i manage them so i'm thinking emotional skills to learn how to manage social media

00:27:42.820 really ought to be in you know and it doesn't seem we're doing anything and and that violence

00:27:48.800 it is a psychological violence on people can be life-threatening and as we know it it does people

00:27:55.460 can take their lives on the back of social media comments so we have to accept that many people

00:28:00.940 don't think it out they're just acting chimp at its worst and just attack people without thinking

00:28:06.460 what damage am I doing here but some people have to accept enjoy the damage some people enjoy

00:28:11.200 going for people and it's just what they do so not every human being is pleasant

00:28:16.580 so you've got to be selective

00:28:18.600 but I think it's going back to what you're saying

00:28:20.460 we have to learn that

00:28:22.160 surround yourself with a world that you can live in

00:28:25.320 don't try and live in the real world

00:28:27.220 because none of us really belong in it

00:28:29.440 because all you've got are roaming groups of chimps

00:28:32.200 and we're never all going to be on the same page

00:28:34.240 so take your world with you

00:28:36.140 create your world, create the people you want in it

00:28:38.620 and then enter the outside world

00:28:40.640 but don't engage the outside world

00:28:42.260 and think it's going to be kind to you

00:28:44.440 that doesn't mean roll over and knock

00:28:46.580 go into it I've done that I'm going out there but I will surround myself

00:28:49.780 so I'm almost in a bubble when I enter does that make sense that's a bit conceptual no that makes

00:28:57.440 a lot of sense it does make a lot of sense I think it's very important to have those people

00:29:01.480 around you and to create your world and to accept that when you step into the real world there's

00:29:06.420 going to be unpleasant people there's going to be people who try and hurt you there's going to be

00:29:09.840 because that's reality yeah now you used to work at Rampton now again correct me if I'm wrong there

00:29:16.400 are three high security prison hospitals in the UK I can't remember that but the other one is

00:29:22.540 Broadmoor which is the more famous one yeah what was that like when you were working with these

00:29:29.060 kinds of people are they like us by and large or are they very different with the way they see the

00:29:34.720 world the way they approach things and the way they behave and act we have to be careful because

00:29:40.260 a bit more education

00:29:43.080 if you look neuroscientifically

00:29:45.100 at what we're classing as someone who's psychopathic

00:29:47.400 and we're saying by that

00:29:48.660 they lack conscience

00:29:50.140 they write the rules for themselves

00:29:52.800 they have very little empathy at all

00:29:55.280 so they see people literally as objects

00:29:57.540 and they'll use people

00:29:59.140 that's common

00:30:01.180 that's not unusual

00:30:02.440 not all of them end up in Rampton

00:30:04.560 many of them are social psychopaths

00:30:06.660 and you will have met some

00:30:07.720 you definitely will

00:30:08.920 where they will use people and it doesn't bother them.

00:30:12.180 So they can be socially presenting well,

00:30:14.300 but they have no compassion and certainly no conscience.

00:30:17.160 So the estimate, when we look at this,

00:30:19.900 is around one in 200 people.

00:30:22.100 That's why I'm saying it's common.

00:30:22.880 A lot of people.

00:30:23.880 Exactly.

00:30:24.820 So you can expect quite a lot of destruction.

00:30:26.960 And we know this.

00:30:27.900 We know this.

00:30:29.420 So when we look scientifically, the big interest,

00:30:33.340 there's lots of areas of the brain which are different in their brains.

00:30:36.920 The biggest interest came years back when we looked at the connection, which is the chimp thinking brain, the orbitofrontal cortex, going into the amygdala.

00:30:45.420 Now, people have heard the amygdala is a very powerful battery of energy, which does our fight, flight, freeze.

00:30:51.420 And it has about 17 clusters of neurons and circuitry in there.

00:30:55.860 So it's very complex for a tiny little structure.

00:30:58.500 But one of the big important parts is it influences our chimp very heavily in giving suggestion what it should do.

00:31:06.620 The tract that joins them, technically called the incident fasciculus,

00:31:10.140 is just a white fiber tract.

00:31:11.540 So we don't know how this happens.

00:31:12.960 But if you look at the normal or typical person, I'll call them,

00:31:16.220 then it's quite a big cross-section area.

00:31:18.660 And when you go down, you see little connections.

00:31:21.660 And it appears to be those connections temper the message from the amygdala

00:31:25.820 and give us conscience, as well as other parts of the brain.

00:31:29.140 When you look at the psychopathic brain, the cross-section is tiny

00:31:33.020 and there's no interconnections.

00:31:34.840 so there's a structural difference we've found um but you can get individuals who have a normal

00:31:41.980 brain and still have psychopathic traits and they can sometimes be damaged people now i'm not making

00:31:47.880 excuses but it's very easy for those of us who've had supportive parents or reasonable childhoods

00:31:53.800 to say well what's wrong with them but i think obviously the world that i've entered i meet

00:31:59.320 people who've had really a rough time and i mean really rough time as young people and so the

00:32:04.740 circuitry gets damaged but they could actually present with what we would say is a normal

00:32:08.840 circuitry or typical and we can get that to to come around but there can be damage done in young

00:32:15.480 children we know that the first about five six years of your life are crucial to get the circuits

00:32:20.760 in a lot of areas functioning fully and if they don't you can't recover that so these people tend

00:32:26.640 to struggle with emotions struggle with impulsivity and it's structured in the brain so it's not an

00:32:32.320 excuse they just have to learn to do it but they're a disadvantage to the rest of us steve i'm

00:32:36.980 going to ask you you're making a lot of sense and i'm going to ask you a question that is

00:32:40.660 controversial okay but it seems obvious to me that the consequence of what you're saying is how we

00:32:47.760 deal with crime is going to be affected by that understanding if there are certain people who

00:32:53.000 commit certain types of genuine evil heinous crimes you're not going to educate them out of

00:32:59.660 that are you no you're not gonna explain it to them that this is not in their interest or this

00:33:05.300 is that's how their brain is wired yeah again i'm just simplifying to try and get the message

00:33:11.260 so when you mention rampton what you're looking for are um two people who come into rampton and

00:33:17.340 then you assess them and you say what i'm looking for is has this person got an a conscience that

00:33:22.020 we can wake up or empathy have they gone through a rough time in life that we can compensate for it

00:33:27.220 and what you do eventually you work with that person's empathy compassion um conscience that's

00:33:33.720 what you work with and you build that up and yeah you can do that and then you would move these guys

00:33:38.740 down uh so they're going to a less secure and maybe you can get back into society and don't

00:33:44.000 forget some people under the influence of drugs when they do these crimes so you've got it you

00:33:48.480 know as we mature people can move ground not everyone right not naive that's what i'm getting

00:33:54.020 at yeah but let's just stick with those people yeah right so what now we're saying we've removed

00:33:58.420 those who we can wait what about the ones who don't appear to have a conscience or empathy

00:34:01.660 and will repeat behaviors and they do then we work differently there's no point in doing a

00:34:06.260 compassionate type program because there's no empathy so they're not going to ever engage it

00:34:11.640 and the research shows this the more psychotherapeutic work you do with them the worse they

00:34:16.400 get really yeah there's no where at the moment they're trying to find it cognitive analytical

00:34:21.580 therapy got close but we found it doesn't do any good and the answer is well you're trying to teach

00:34:26.280 you know a dog to speak um probably a bad example but you're now cancelled but um what we're saying

00:34:34.560 and then you can work with them on a behavioral program because they won't do things detrimental

00:34:38.980 to themselves so if you say right if you do this the consequence is as follows then people will

00:34:45.220 work with consequences whether they're psychopathic or not uh whereas i hope that you know if removing

00:34:51.460 those who haven't got a conscience all the rest of us can work up our values our morals and and

00:34:56.720 actually improve them get them to come to the front of our minds but yeah that the um what we're

00:35:02.720 calling psychopathic which is disocial personality disorder um that individual from my opinion um

00:35:09.960 you're not going to do much because the circuitry is not there right so that's why i'm asking the

00:35:14.360 question because we talk on the show about societal issues, things that happen, things that

00:35:19.140 people talk about, things that happen in the news. And every time there's this terrible crime, for

00:35:24.160 example, a man tragically kills a woman or something like this, the narrative is always,

00:35:30.260 well, we must educate men or we must do this or we must do that. And I'm sure there's some value

00:35:33.960 to that for sure. But I just always feel like we're missing that one piece, which is there's

00:35:39.180 always going to be people who are going to commit these crimes. And what we need to do is make sure

00:35:43.040 that people are protected from them,

00:35:44.580 that they're not released from prison

00:35:45.980 because we're really compassionate and empathetic

00:35:48.480 and whatever, et cetera.

00:35:50.060 Like, what is your take on all of that conversation?

00:35:52.940 I think I'd agree that obviously

00:35:54.720 if somebody is repeat offending all the time,

00:35:56.940 then which is what we do,

00:35:58.200 we detain until we think they're safe.

00:36:00.580 And if it never gets safe, they stay.

00:36:02.700 So it's detention for life.

00:36:05.060 But you've got to demonstrate

00:36:06.180 that there's no change in this person.

00:36:08.020 And you obviously do try all the therapies you can.

00:36:10.700 You don't just decide this is somebody who's psychopathic

00:36:12.940 will give up uh you you do try but if you're thinking right it's not getting anywhere i mean

00:36:17.520 it's a long process with assessments but i think most forensic psychs and forensic psychologists

00:36:23.300 would agree that you know if you've got someone who appears to have a brain that just will not

00:36:28.040 function the way the rest of us do then it would be unwise to chat to them and do empathy and when

00:36:34.220 they don't possess that it's not a sensible thing to use your time doing where they will respond to

00:36:40.540 consequence but again it's a big field this and i think when you start delving into it you say

00:36:46.360 there's a man who's killed a woman you've got to really delve into this because um you know yeah

00:36:52.940 of course it's wrong and it's heinous that's no doubt but you have to start saying are they

00:36:57.640 mitigating circumstances again i'm not excusing that i'm not excusing but i'm saying i can

00:37:03.420 understand doesn't mean i can't understand it and again for a lot of these what do you mean steve

00:37:08.800 There'll be a lot of people listening to this going,

00:37:10.540 what the hell is you on about?

00:37:11.500 Well, if you've had a really bad childhood,

00:37:13.440 let's say your father beat you to a pulp every night

00:37:15.680 and continue this throughout your first 15 years,

00:37:19.740 you're not going to come away unscathed.

00:37:21.960 No.

00:37:22.400 It's exceptional if you come out there smiling

00:37:24.820 and saying, I can contribute to society.

00:37:26.400 You're permanently damaged.

00:37:27.960 So you may have anger issues

00:37:30.960 because you've been suppressed and suppressed.

00:37:33.420 And so you've got this anger against dad.

00:37:35.520 Now I'm giving it any very sort of black and white terms here.

00:37:38.800 But then you can see somebody else comes in like the boss

00:37:41.560 who starts representing your father and does it again to you

00:37:44.440 and humiliates you, demeans you.

00:37:47.060 You can see how the anger spills.

00:37:49.360 And then we do get a true emotional hijack.

00:37:51.580 And the person may even know what they're about to do,

00:37:53.640 but as soon as they've committed the act, fall apart

00:37:56.680 because they realize it wasn't the right thing to do.

00:38:00.620 You know, and I know people will say, well, that's just an excuse.

00:38:03.260 But I feel like saying, well, you know,

00:38:05.180 do we all act and behave appropriately every day of our lives?

00:38:08.720 because we all know when we're doing something wrong do we start punishing ourselves for that

00:38:14.620 you know it's an extreme I agree so I think I'm compassionate to begin with but I will draw a line

00:38:21.620 and say okay compassion only goes so far and it's really bad that maybe you get beaten to a pup by

00:38:26.400 a dad it doesn't excuse you killing someone but it's a fine line I think you have to take individual

00:38:32.100 cases. And we tend to use the word psychopath and sociopath, and we use them and we interchange

00:38:41.680 them. What is actually the difference between the two? Generally speaking, what is understood is

00:38:48.040 when we started really looking at the mind, which is probably going 100 years now, and we started

00:38:53.060 looking at these individuals that were, say, aberrant, and we were recognising features they

00:38:57.600 all possess the big ones i've given you and that's the lack of conscience and lack of empathy

00:39:01.400 so you don't see remorse in them and repeat behaviors um and we initially the the feeling

00:39:08.060 was that society has created these monsters uh so there was this thing we've created it because

00:39:13.880 of like the background to this young managers describe so they would be known as social

00:39:18.020 problems so they were sociopaths so society was the behind it um as we started uh taking this on

00:39:25.160 us doctors with scanners and started seeing the brain and saying oh wow the neuroscience is

00:39:29.780 actually telling us these are predisposed not predetermined but predisposed to to acting in a

00:39:35.620 way which lacks compassion and empathy and conscience then we started terminate terminology

00:39:40.800 changed to psychopaths so the sociopath and psychopath is really about the etiology you know

00:39:46.380 what's the cause is it society that's created the monster or is it the monster was born and it's just

00:39:52.640 acting out and then to try and get neutral ground we classify them as disocial personality disorders

00:39:59.620 and that doesn't then give a an etiology just says this is what the behaviors are demonstrating

00:40:05.800 the cause we don't know and that comes back to what one of the functions of rampton was to

00:40:10.540 distinguish between the two and so if somebody is socially being built can we undo what society

00:40:16.220 has created you know can we take away the anger or whatever it is that they're going through

00:40:21.020 or is it that you know this appears to be genetic and born this way i just think you've got to be

00:40:26.480 very careful and not jump to conclusions or judgments and always assume you're going to

00:40:31.120 help someone and be compassionate until it's proved otherwise and think there's a point

00:40:35.140 where you've got just say you know it's well that's the important part once you get to that

00:40:39.420 point then you've got to lift the wall from your eyes if that's what's been there right

00:40:43.280 your question occurred to me as you were talking there uh evolutionarily speaking

00:40:48.780 What is the evolution rationale for the existence of psychopaths?

00:40:52.860 Is it that that other troop of chimps over there

00:40:55.760 is probably going to get a random mutation that creates a psychopath

00:40:58.600 and we need some of our own psychopaths to go and defend us against their psyche?

00:41:01.980 Is that some of the kind of evolutionary background to this?

00:41:05.020 Like, what is the point of psychopaths is what I'm asking.

00:41:08.140 Well, I'm outside my field here. I'm a doctor.

00:41:10.500 But I think nature doesn't have to have a function.

00:41:13.780 It's trying something else.

00:41:14.780 and remember that in past the psychopath

00:41:17.400 wouldn't survive

00:41:18.280 wouldn't they become the alpha male

00:41:21.280 no because they wouldn't be liked by their subordinates

00:41:23.480 so the psychopath won't survive

00:41:25.760 the troop will go for them

00:41:28.000 so how do we still

00:41:29.700 have psychopaths then

00:41:30.780 how is evolution

00:41:31.600 we almost cater now

00:41:34.040 we excuse a lot

00:41:35.320 sometimes we allow

00:41:37.340 and we know if it's genetic which appears

00:41:39.900 it's polygenic

00:41:41.080 a psychopath won't breed psychopaths

00:41:44.660 but there's genetic loading,

00:41:46.680 so any one of us will carry some of the genes.

00:41:48.800 It depends who you marry.

00:41:51.280 But obviously now they don't get eliminated,

00:41:54.160 which they would a thousand years ago.

00:41:56.620 People wouldn't tolerate them.

00:41:57.820 It was far more violent then.

00:41:59.540 We've eased off.

00:42:01.200 I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by the way,

00:42:03.020 but I'm saying that the problem of that

00:42:05.140 is that there is a bigger poo.

00:42:07.380 Because again, because they will be still sexually driven,

00:42:10.060 they often have three, four, five children randomly,

00:42:13.140 whereas the rest of society is moving towards like two children,

00:42:16.420 three children or less.

00:42:18.780 So the pool is genetically would be getting larger.

00:42:21.880 Right. The future is bright. The future is psychopath.

00:42:24.940 That's what's happening.

00:42:26.260 They're multiplying. Fantastic.

00:42:28.320 But Steve, and again, please debunk this.

00:42:32.260 I read about psychopaths that, you know,

00:42:35.080 they're more likely to be CEOs.

00:42:38.320 They're more likely to be successful, high achievers.

00:42:40.860 Well, this is the social psychopath.

00:42:42.320 because again it just because you haven't got a conscience and no empathy doesn't mean

00:42:47.060 that you don't work to certain society rules so i say most people won't be axe wielding maniacs

00:42:53.900 they're they're really rare they're exceptional but we do meet people who just don't seem to have

00:42:59.200 any empathy or compassion that doesn't mean that and they would be classed it under if if we looked

00:43:04.720 at this tract and say well there you go this is a psychopath but that doesn't mean that they

00:43:09.380 necessarily are damaging it just means they don't have compassion or empathy so they won't have a

00:43:14.180 problem sacking people and saying well that's they have to get on with their life you know they won't

00:43:19.500 have that but you can also get people who've got compassion and empathy and still have to sack

00:43:22.700 people and say yeah it's upsetting it's not pleasant but isn't it therefore helpful like

00:43:28.220 if you're a surgeon if you don't have empathy then you're not going to be you're not going to

00:43:32.520 be worried i'll just protect surgeons they're not psychopaths yeah but all but you know if you're in

00:43:38.340 a high pressure situation and you don't have empathy isn't it kind of a superpower in a way

00:43:43.980 well not really i mean i'm i hope i've got compassion and empathy but i still work

00:43:49.340 in which i do in settings which are highly emotionally charged i mean the world of a

00:43:55.040 psychiatrist is not a happy world clearly you know and you meet again with tragedies complete

00:44:00.180 tragedies and messed up lives and people struggling with mental health issues um and we're empathic

00:44:06.320 and compassionate people but we learn to manage that so you learn how to manage your emotions

00:44:12.100 rather than saying oh it's best i don't have any yeah i'm not sure that would work so i think you

00:44:18.980 use your empathy to say how is this man struggling or this woman struggling get i like to say when i

00:44:25.260 teach you get inside the head of the person you're dealing with because that's when you see the world

00:44:29.220 as they see it and it really changes your view once you see somebody's world then you come out

00:44:34.100 of it in order to be able to help them and give them insights or support so yeah i mean i was once

00:44:41.100 approached by a boxing coach who said can you deliver psychopaths because they weren't one of

00:44:47.500 the problems boxers have is they don't really want to hurt the opponent and they said that can

00:44:51.240 sometimes stop a good boxer in their tracks uh and i said well a psychopath wouldn't be a boxer

00:44:55.900 because uh they wouldn't comply they won't comply with the rules and they won't do the training and

00:45:01.580 And they want, so, you know, it's not like they can channel themselves in.

00:45:06.640 They're disruptive.

00:45:07.660 They'll work to their own agendas and rules.

00:45:09.400 So you won't do well with a psychopath.

00:45:12.460 They're not compliant.

00:45:14.200 That's really interesting.

00:45:14.840 So what do psychopaths tend to, like, what kind of things do they get into?

00:45:18.540 What kind of jobs do they do?

00:45:20.040 Well, there can be anything, like I say.

00:45:21.840 You may get doctors who are lacking in compassion and empathy.

00:45:26.560 And we've had this in the history of medicine, haven't we,

00:45:28.520 where, you know, clearly they've gone through the system.

00:45:31.580 and they're not caring and it's a career.

00:45:35.580 So you'll get them in any walk of life.

00:45:38.960 It's just a lack of compassion and empathy.

00:45:41.840 Great, they're everywhere and they're multiplying.

00:45:43.440 Fantastic.

00:45:45.580 On a good front, just as a positive note,

00:45:49.420 it is interesting to show that as society keeps progressing,

00:45:52.840 despite the fact that they may be a proportionate larger,

00:45:56.080 we're actually more passive and peaceful than we ever were.

00:46:00.040 and it's interesting at the moment it's a bit of an easy but this is the longest time in the

00:46:06.600 history of great britain that we've never had a war there has never been a generation that hasn't

00:46:11.460 suffered a major war never so that speaks for itself that society is becoming a better place

00:46:17.440 my concern is what you alluded to earlier is the psychological damage that's being done which we've

00:46:23.280 never had before so the physical may be going down but for me the psychological is rising and that's

00:46:29.180 a great concern and i think you've alluded to it the social media it's this sniping where we're not

00:46:35.740 really thinking about what we're doing so it's so easy to criticize someone when you're anonymous

00:46:41.180 or just add another thumbs down or make some really adverse remark that you think is quite

00:46:45.660 witty but actually could cut somebody in half so that's to me is the new danger it's the

00:46:52.060 psychological warfare that's going on hey francis would you like to learn another language no mike

00:46:58.940 Already know foreign languages perfectly.

00:47:02.080 Oi, Gary.

00:47:03.180 Ué, la biblioteca.

00:47:05.600 You can't go on holiday, mate, without knowing where the swimming pool is.

00:47:09.400 La biblioteca is the library, you idiot.

00:47:12.000 Exactly.

00:47:12.520 You can never be too far away from knowledge and sexually frustrated librarians.

00:47:19.180 For those of you who do want to learn a language and connect with another culture,

00:47:23.200 or maybe just brush up on your Spanish for the next holiday,

00:47:26.120 Babbel is the app for you.

00:47:28.100 Babbel's 15-minute lessons make it the perfect way to learn a new language on the go.

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00:47:44.280 Babbel lessons were created by over 100 language experts, meaning real people.

00:47:49.100 So you learn useful vocabulary and not meaningless phrases like the ones Francis keeps uttering.

00:47:54.360 Babbel's teaching method has been scientifically proven to be effective across multiple studies.

00:47:59.780 With Babbel, you can choose from 14 different languages, including Spanish, French, Italians, and the other ones.

00:48:07.480 Babbel is available as an app or online, and your progress will be synced across all devices.

00:48:14.000 Babbel is offering our listeners six months free with the purchase of a six-month subscription with our promo code, which is Trigger.

00:48:20.980 Go to babbel.com forward slash play and use promo code TRIGGER for an extra six months for free.

00:48:26.900 We're even going to get Francis on it. You might learn English.

00:48:29.460 That's B-A-B-B-E-L.com forward slash play.

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00:48:36.520 I use Babbel and look at me now.

00:48:39.460 Yo puedo hablar español absolutamente perfecto.

00:48:43.380 No, I'm in Gary.

00:48:44.480 do you ever get worried steve the the way that we're talking about mental health in particular

00:48:51.860 the way that people use something like bipolar which is a very serious condition i mean you know

00:48:57.360 better than anyone but they almost use it as an identity or you know like a depressed being a

00:49:02.120 depressive becomes an identity that somehow it it makes you more interesting that you've got a badge

00:49:07.780 to me i find that a worrying symptom of society really i mean you're right if you look at the

00:49:15.080 spectrum obviously a depressive illness is absolutely devastating and people who get it

00:49:19.020 uh you know your heart's got to go out to them because it is crippling and and it's nothing

00:49:24.040 they're doing by the way again it's not attitudinal um but having said that yes you're right we're not

00:49:29.920 naive to the fact that somebody might present because it's got gains you know if i'm depressed

00:49:34.460 they can't work and they may not want to work and you know we're not fooled by that we're saying

00:49:38.760 obviously people will mimic like you said they have a label uh and then they may they may this

00:49:43.720 is a small number of people use it as an excuse and that makes it hard for the people who genuinely

00:49:47.980 suffer these illnesses you know and that that's you know but they're doing it for a reason

00:49:52.800 so again you got asked why would you want a label you know what what are the gains and and if it's

00:49:59.080 like you know someone wants to say i'm depressed because they're so vulnerable and they feel by

00:50:03.020 being ill people will not attack them because they feel like they're being under attack in

00:50:07.040 some way you can see that you could work with them to say well hang on there's different ways

00:50:10.460 of perceiving yourself and getting support than to make the illness model so people do use an

00:50:16.640 illness model you know but it's a small amount of people it's not big but they'll come to the

00:50:21.880 forefront because people see them as being well you're just using this as an excuse to avoid

00:50:27.740 something or gain something we've become quite negative in this conversation so let's finish

00:50:32.480 on a positive. You've worked with a lot of elite athletes, helping them to achieve better

00:50:37.040 performances, to get out of their own way. And that I think a lot of people, the question that

00:50:41.980 they'd be quite curious to know is, are these people who you are seeing on television, making

00:50:47.100 millions and millions of pounds playing in front of a hundred thousand people every week, whatever

00:50:51.340 that might be, are they mentally different? Are they, have they achieved some kind of higher level

00:50:56.820 of performance mentally? Or are they just people like us who just happen to physically be able to

00:51:02.340 do stuff that normal people can't do unbelievable people like us yeah they're making millions by

00:51:07.120 the way some might but most of the ones i work with don't make millions and i work with the

00:51:11.380 it's not very good advertising for you is it it's again my job is to get people in a good place

00:51:18.280 so to try and raise the conversation a bit into something lighter is um when i've done this work

00:51:24.040 what i've found is it's amazing how people once they start understanding themselves and actually

00:51:28.340 start managing uh their emotions the change in their life is fantastic so i can't count the

00:51:34.520 number of people and this is humbling that go through this work that i'm doing and say it's

00:51:39.680 transformational once you understand yourself and you can manage your emotions and your thinking

00:51:44.480 and your behaviors you just change into the person you really are and suddenly you're free of all

00:51:49.520 this so all the stuff we've talked about is almost secondary to what i do so when people come in

00:51:55.440 whatever's happening just put even the illness to one side and let's work on you as a person

00:51:59.700 and I've obviously had the privilege of working with a lot of people that are well known

00:52:04.160 I can't name names unless they've gone public because obviously I'm a doctor

00:52:07.860 but the two that did interviews early days with Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker and Vicky Pendleton

00:52:14.620 on the bike both fantastic people and it was interesting they both did an interview of the

00:52:20.180 press at the same time without knowing they were doing it and both said the same thing when Steve

00:52:25.320 metas he didn't go to the snooker table or the track he came to us as people and said let's get

00:52:30.940 you in a good place and when i got them in a good place then i said what do you want to do with

00:52:34.820 yourself now then we'll go and have a look at cycling in a circle or we'll look at knocking

00:52:39.660 a ball around you know then i'll say okay let's apply what you've done now but let's start in a

00:52:44.660 good place and all of us all of us can get in a good place again to give you some healthy good

00:52:50.040 research every bit of research shows if you actually work on yourself emotionally you will

00:52:56.020 improve you will improve it's just getting something that resonates with you i've put out

00:53:00.960 the chimp model because it's what i find resonates with me and those who resonates with great but if

00:53:05.780 you've got people listening and think it doesn't resonate with me there's so many other alternatives

00:53:10.440 that are brilliant that you could resonate with and it's that thing of suddenly believing that

00:53:15.280 you can actually do this and get out there and maybe get someone to help you and support you

00:53:19.400 we can all improve so every bit of research shows emotional skills can be learned

00:53:25.120 and then your quality of life improves so again when i look at the people on the telly the answer

00:53:30.760 is no i haven't found this but i'm only one man you have to ask the people who normally do it for

00:53:36.680 life are the sports psychologists they're the experts and if you ask them they may come up

00:53:40.860 with something very different my experience has been the people i've worked with uh are just

00:53:45.520 everyday people who happen to be able to either run quickly or kick a ball or you know they just

00:53:50.440 have a special physical gift but mentally they're the same as we are and they struggle with the same

00:53:56.340 things we struggle with and that's really interesting yeah i haven't found the x factor

00:54:01.600 i haven't found that well this this fits nicely with what i've always believed since a pretty

00:54:06.780 young age which is it's really important to work on yourself on your mental game as well as all

00:54:12.400 sorts of other things that you do um and i have always i've always found that that is a process

00:54:17.560 that you get rewarded for yeah and i never thought that i'm necessarily destined for some kind of

00:54:23.220 special thing i just didn't want to live my life knowing that there's something in the way

00:54:26.920 that there's something holding me back i think that's something which is where we're going back

00:54:31.100 to the neuroscience which in the 90s i had this light bulb moment that i'm talking to these patients

00:54:36.060 thinking there's two people talking to me and it sort of dawned on me just you talk and then they

00:54:41.720 talk almost like emotional rubbish and you think and then suddenly I bring them out and they talk

00:54:46.240 sensibly you think it's a different person suddenly it's quite severe the difference and that's where

00:54:50.860 I started looking at the science thinking let's go with my experience and see is this born out

00:54:55.420 with neuroscience and there it was in front of me you've got these two parts of the brain almost in

00:55:00.660 a battle if you don't manage them and exactly what you're saying what you're really saying to me under

00:55:05.080 the neurosciences my computer needed tidying up because it's sabotaging with all these beliefs

00:55:10.220 that are not helping me and also that this active chimp brain is just jumping me around and it's got

00:55:16.560 its own agenda and ways of working which i don't actually agree with so i'm going to slow it down

00:55:21.640 and stop being impulsive so that's when you explain i'm getting in the way of myself that's

00:55:26.560 all i'm saying scientifically is if you start distancing yourself from the the chimp and

00:55:31.260 computer and learn who you really are because most people don't have a clue who they are and

00:55:36.700 then you say right what you're presenting to the world is you with an influence from the chimp and

00:55:41.780 computer or even a hijack when you get that then you would not say to me i am an anxious person

00:55:47.880 what you'd say is i'm actually a really peaceful easygoing very relaxed person because that's who

00:55:54.020 you'd want to be but when they bolt on this machine my machine's crazy and i need to learn

00:56:00.480 to understand and work with it and get it on board so it'll always present anxiety that's not going

00:56:06.780 to stop but what you'll learn to do is when you distance from it is learn what it's trying to tell

00:56:11.860 you what you need to do to sort your computer out and then you'll find that sometimes it just

00:56:17.000 doesn't happen because it happens so fast in the brain it's like less than a fifth of a second

00:56:21.860 that your computer will settle the chimp all you've got to do is input and see what resonates

00:56:27.760 it's with you and then you start saying i'm fine my chimp's anxious but you start seeing as a

00:56:33.980 positive that brings up a question for me i said we're going to end on a positive probably not now

00:56:39.020 which is what do you make of the increasing medicalization of some of these feelings that

00:56:46.520 we experience you've got anxiety here's a tablet you've got depression here's a tablet and we we

00:56:50.920 don't say you feel depressed we say you have this thing called depression what do you make of of

00:56:57.040 that because i found like you say there's sometimes anxiety is there for a reason anxiety is telling

00:57:03.380 you you're not ready for this you need to go in and train or prepare or learn or or not do this

00:57:09.640 because this is the wrong thing for you absolutely right but if if the answer we have as a society to

00:57:14.980 that is shove it down here's a tablet to make it all go away is that going to get in the way of us

00:57:20.720 growing as people i think so i think the problem you've got is you think about this i mean we're

00:57:26.700 overloaded in the world of mental health and psychs and so i think you talk to anyone who's

00:57:31.620 counseling a psychologist a psychiatrist we're overloaded therapists are overloaded because

00:57:36.740 all of us could do with this because it's like mental coaching you know it's getting us to

00:57:41.220 understand because nobody tells us this so we're not given a manual at birth that says this is what

00:57:46.280 you're going to have to manage so we find it and we don't know what to do with it so we we don't

00:57:51.000 then have healthy behaviors for coping strategies so it is the doctors gps are overloaded so they

00:57:57.780 can't sit down and say to you let's start analyzing what you're thinking let's see what

00:58:01.380 you believe seller they can't do that they've got seven minutes they've got exactly so therefore

00:58:05.680 it's much as they look take this tablet go for a walk go swimming do this because it's a quick

00:58:11.480 fix and they hope that'll just calm you down but it's a sticky plaster so you're right

00:58:15.560 we're complex beings and we have to put the effort in but we also need people who know what they're

00:58:20.040 doing to help us to to find out what's going on our heads and we don't have enough people to do

00:58:25.540 that hence i wrote the book to try and say you can work this out for yourself and there are things

00:58:30.320 you can do practically that will get you into a good place but i know where you're coming from

00:58:34.940 you're sort of like pushing me to say that we're labeling lots of things medical now you do agree

00:58:39.960 you know sometimes we're labeling teenagers when they're going through a normal hormonal change

00:58:45.280 which is going to send you emotions everywhere you're learning to do interpersonal skills and

00:58:49.500 you've got no experience and you've also got this troop drive saying you must be loved by everyone

00:58:54.320 and any comment can destroy you and so that is normal so to be a teenager is not a good place

00:59:00.160 for most teenagers but you know we have to be careful that the small subgroup that have a

00:59:05.560 depressive illness 100% don't get lost 100% but you're right we there is and we have concerns as

00:59:11.240 psychiatrists about this that we're medicalizing a bit too much and saying look this is not medical

00:59:16.180 it's normal what we need to learn which is why i said at the beginning my patients have come

00:59:20.920 through the door 50 probably do need medication 50 of referrals that i got from gps did not need

00:59:27.920 that they needed insights and learn how to manage and we know like for example anxiety

00:59:33.440 that you've mentioned that uh that doesn't respond to medication you can knock it down a bit but it

00:59:40.940 don't it won't be removed with medication it's removed by actually seeing what's causing anxiety

00:59:46.040 in what your beliefs are so it is a mind problem as opposed to physical illness so anxiety yeah

00:59:54.260 to me it's it's a lack of management and we need to look and say how can we help people to get that

01:00:01.140 management and then they'll come out of it so we do a lot of cognitive behavioral type work with

01:00:06.280 that rather than give tablets i do agree i do agree with you steve it's been an absolute pleasure

01:00:13.800 Thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:00:15.420 We're going to do a few quick questions for our locals' members.

01:00:18.900 Before we do that, we always have one final question,

01:00:21.420 which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about

01:00:23.900 that we really should be?

01:00:26.320 I think it alludes back to the children in schools.

01:00:29.220 I'm doing a lot of work at schools at the moment

01:00:31.040 and looking at building resilience and robustness in children

01:00:34.460 because we know the research is, do it at four-year-old.

01:00:37.940 There are ways we can actually improve resilience

01:00:40.260 in four to five-year-olds which pay dividends 10 years on and the research shows that that you can

01:00:46.060 get resilient teenagers which what we're after and resilient adults so for me the big thing is

01:00:51.480 what I'm doing and that's trying to get people to become psychologically minded and start

01:00:57.060 understanding themselves as a human being and having a better opinion of themselves build

01:01:02.480 themselves up and others that's where I think I'd like to see society grow and we need to be

01:01:07.260 talking much more about positive not you know using it as a safety net but saying how do we

01:01:12.880 get positive and proactive uh really get quality life in a good place that's what i feel we should

01:01:17.860 be talking about yeah i couldn't agree more i think we talk so much about mental health and

01:01:21.360 what we really talk about is mental ill health what we should be talking about so much more is

01:01:25.520 tuning your brain up to to be better to be more fulfilled to be more successful to be happier to

01:01:30.780 be psychological health yeah exactly and teach relationships communication dealing with emotion

01:01:36.040 This is the kind of stuff I'd like to see much earlier on in school.

01:01:40.360 Well, one of the great things about A Path Through the Jungle

01:01:43.220 and your other work, but particularly this one,

01:01:45.020 is you've kind of got very easy to read.

01:01:48.140 You've got graphs and all sorts of other things

01:01:50.280 that are visually engaging that makes it more digestible.

01:01:52.780 So I really recommend you guys check out The Chim Paradox

01:01:55.260 and A Path Through the Jungle.

01:01:56.780 Dr. Steve Peters, thanks so much for coming on.

01:01:58.120 Thank you so much. Thank you.

01:02:01.560 I'm a massive Ronnie O'Sullivan fan

01:02:03.280 and I've heard Steve used to be in his dressing room

01:02:05.780 at big tournaments.

01:02:07.080 What did he say to him in the middle of...

01:02:08.220 Used to be.

01:02:09.240 I'm going to remind him.

01:02:10.380 I spoke to him two days ago.

01:02:33.280 Sweet Caroline. Like Jersey

01:02:35.340 Boys and Beautiful, the next musical

01:02:37.500 mega hit is here. The Neil

01:02:39.240 Diamond Musical. A Beautiful Noise.

01:02:41.580 Now through June 7th, 2026

01:02:43.600 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:02:45.780 Get tickets at Mirbish.com.

TRIGGERnometry - March 28, 2022

Dr Steve Peters： How to Overcome Anxiety and Build Confidence

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