In this episode of Trigonometry, we talk to Emily Molly, an independent journalist and co-founder of Subverse Media, about her journey to becoming a journalist, her experience covering the Trump campaign, and her thoughts on why journalists are so detached from the people they cover.
00:00:00.000hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show
00:00:09.980for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about
00:00:14.900the trigonometry don't pretend to be the experts we ask the experts as you can see we're not in
00:00:20.940our normal environment we're recording this at the battle of ideas which many of you are going
00:00:25.120to be so come and say hello if you're around and our brilliant guest this week is a journalist and
00:00:29.620co-founder of Subverse Media. Emily Molly, welcome to Trigonometry. Hi there, good to be here. It's
00:00:34.520good to have you. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us. For anyone who doesn't know who you
00:00:38.220are, tell us a little bit about who are you, how are you, where you are, what has been the journey
00:00:42.600that brings you to this very chair? Oh wow, okay. So I'm an independent journalist, I co-founded
00:00:48.940Subverse News, and I've been doing a lot of on-the-ground reporting around the world. In
00:00:55.220the US I cover certain topics. One of my main focuses is social movements. So within the US
00:01:01.360I've been covering sort of the rise of white nationalism, Antifa, and then around the world
00:01:07.580I've also been covering things like the Hong Kong protests, the LFS movement, and then also the
00:01:13.860Catalan independence protests. And you mentioned earlier when we were talking just before that
00:01:17.840you were covering the Donald Trump election campaign in 2016. You were not a credential
00:01:24.100journalist at the time yeah so you had to wait in line for six hours and you find yourself chatting
00:01:29.300to people and finding out what their views were and as part of that you could kind of see the
00:01:33.620his election coming yeah so that's quite an interesting thing about actually journalism
00:01:39.000where you actually talk to people it's quite unusual these days isn't it yeah and it really
00:01:43.280illuminated to me just how much of the press in general kind of sits in a bubble and in uh you
00:01:49.000know you could call it an echo chamber where they're pronouncing the same ideas off of each
00:01:53.000other and they're not really getting the sort of real world view of normal people. So I followed
00:01:58.880pretty much all of the candidates in 2016. And by just sitting in line, standing in line with people
00:02:04.860and chatting with them about what they care about, their main issues, you kind of get a feel for
00:02:09.960what they pay attention to, what they don't care about. Like a lot of the Trump supporters I know
00:02:15.160didn't really care about what the press was saying about Trump. In fact, I think it made them like
00:02:19.760him more. Um, uh, but yeah, uh, it was also just being able to see how, um, unenthused a lot of
00:02:28.560people were about Hillary Clinton as well. Um, seeing how like extremely enthused a lot of people
00:02:33.700were about Bernie Sanders. And then you kind of had sort of, uh, I guess lukewarm, uh, sort of,
00:02:42.260uh, enthusiasm, enthusiasm for other Republican candidates. So yeah, it was a really interesting
00:02:47.540experience talking to people. And Emily, so we're talking about how there's this disconnect between
00:02:53.900the mainstream media and the people and the mainstream media were famous and that they
00:02:58.180didn't predict and they didn't see Trump coming. Why do you think they're so detached? Is it
00:03:02.820because they come from one part of society or? Well, that's a really good question. I think
00:03:08.160a lot of journalists now come from a lot of the same background. You know, a lot of them go to
00:03:16.380school for journalism and get taught by the same people. Um, and not everyone goes to school
00:03:21.840journalism for journalism, but I think the more you have people who spend more of their time
00:03:27.780around journalists, and this is another thing that's pretty true about Twitter is like a lot
00:03:31.660of Twitter is just journalists talking to other journalists. And yeah, I mean, it is people
00:03:37.300talking and reaffirming each other's beliefs. And when you have people disagreeing with their
00:03:43.180viewpoints and opinions and there must be something wrong with that person because
00:03:46.580everyone else in their bubble agrees with them. So I think it is, I mean, even after Trump was
00:03:52.920elected, you saw a bunch of these media outlets saying, oh, well, we need to go into middle
00:03:56.820America and talk to people and figure out why this happened. And it's like, well, you could
00:04:00.320have done that before. And then maybe you wouldn't have looked so foolish.
00:04:04.900And what did they miss? So you talked about people's enthusiasm, but what were some of the
00:04:09.500issues on the campaign trails that were enthusing Bernie supporters? Why was Hillary not interesting
00:04:15.640to people? Why was Trump so popular with the people that you talked to? I think a lot of it
00:04:19.620had to do with economic issues, not so much social issues. A lot of the people who were more Bernie
00:04:26.920supporting, the younger people were more interested in social issues, as well as student debt, which
00:04:32.840is just a huge crushing problem for young people in America right now. But for Donald Trump
00:04:39.060supporters specifically, I do believe economic issues and then some social issues like addiction,
00:04:44.620like the opioid epidemic. A lot of people just think the status quo was putting them in these
00:04:52.100situations where nothing was improving, nothing was really changing. And how do you change things?
00:04:58.220You get somebody who's a total outsider in charge. And I think that's really what they wanted.
00:05:03.760And, you know, it's there was sort of this attitude towards the press where a lot of people felt like
00:05:08.060they weren't being represented fairly. And so when you see them misrepresenting Donald Trump
00:05:13.620or the things that he said, they felt a lot more in touch with what he was saying and how he was
00:05:20.540treated than other candidates. And what's interesting about the mainstream media is
00:05:24.820that they've made mistakes. And in a way, we all make mistakes. Of course we do. But
00:05:29.140what seems baffling with them is that they don't seem to have learned from their mistakes. In fact,
00:05:33.920they just seem to be doubling down oh my god yeah cnn is like the perfect example of that but um you
00:05:39.380have to kind of look at their incentives at that point too uh they had the trump bump during the
00:05:44.0202016 election and then after he was elected that sounds like a sex position doesn't it
00:05:48.440sorry but yeah they saw that it was profitable and so they they doubled down they kept talking
00:06:01.640trump trump trump and you know um a lot of other outlets followed suit with that it got more clicks
00:06:08.440it got more uh a bigger it got a bigger audience and i don't know i just it's not sustainable
00:06:14.960though at a certain point people do want to hear about real issues again and unfortunately a lot
00:06:19.900of real issues have been going uncovered or uh just have been minimized because everyone is so
00:06:25.540focused on what trump tweeted and do you think part of the problem as well is that the media
00:06:30.660and I've seen it because I've worked in radio, is that the media are terrified because their
00:06:36.100traditional ways of funding themselves, monetizing, they're evaporating.
00:06:41.020Yeah, I absolutely think that's the case, because now it's more of a click economy,
00:06:45.260and we've seen that failing. You see a lot of media outlets in the US, digital outlets failing
00:06:50.260and laying people off and being bought up, like consolidating. And I really think you put your
00:06:58.060eggs in the advertising basket rather than focusing on what your community what your audience
00:07:02.860wants and will support you for which i i think is why so many more people are turning to
00:07:07.900subscription-based options and um yeah there just needs to be better options out there for people
00:07:13.500do you think that's not partly a problem though like uh we have a lot of subscription-based
00:07:18.080services in this country and what i always feel is it forces people you know people have a limited
00:07:23.020amount of money. So you end up like buying a subscription to the one newspaper that you
00:07:27.840agree with. And they just keep feeding you the same stuff that you like. And then you end up in
00:07:32.360even more of a bubble than you would and nearly would have done. Otherwise known as the Guardian
00:07:35.640model. Well, the Guardian actually asked for donations. I'm actually talking about some of
00:07:41.360the newspapers I've written. The Telegraph, The Spectator. If you want to read a lot of that,
00:07:45.420you have to pay. And if you're not going to buy a subscription to 10 different outlets,
00:07:49.940which most people are not, you end up with the, you know, not the Guardian, the spectator view
00:07:55.560or the Telegraph view or the whatever view. All great newspapers, please keep getting my articles
00:08:00.660into your newspapers, but you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. And that's where I think, like,
00:08:07.120one of the issues is just how, yeah, I think it's just, it needs to almost be completely
00:08:12.320reworked as an industry. I don't believe in putting important news or just news in general
00:08:18.580behind a paywall but if people want like behind the scenes content or like if they want more
00:08:23.940in-depth analysis on something that takes more time it takes more work and i think some people
00:08:28.780are willing to throw down three dollars five dollars a month for some of those extras 30
00:08:34.020pounds for a mug you never know but um you know with the clickbait thing it's interesting to me
00:08:40.500and to get your perspective on i feel like the mainstream media they they're dying so quickly
00:08:45.960that they are desperate for clicks they have now become the clickbait medium and it's us who are
00:08:52.320doing new media that are actually doing long-form content in our case or on the ground reporting in
00:08:58.320your case really giving people a completely different view of what's happening um do you
00:09:04.020think this is going to continue do you think the mainstream media will at some point go actually
00:09:08.000no we've gone too far we need to start doing things the way because their brand really it's
00:09:12.980like substantive reporting historically yeah and they are killing their own brand by doing this
00:09:18.200clickbait stuff aren't they yeah i think uh it just needs to be completely reworked the media
00:09:23.720landscape and how it funds itself and how it i think a lot of like a lot of newspapers at least
00:09:30.020in the u.s i think uh like the new york times specifically has kind of ostracized a lot of
00:09:34.620their own audience by, by doing ridiculous clickbait or, um, yeah. And I think at that point
00:09:42.280they need to take a look at what they started as and what they've turned into and kind of figure
00:09:48.380out how to, how to return to their roots of actual journalism rather than telling people what to
00:09:54.060think. But I'm not sure if they're, I think you see a lot of outlets who are taking, uh, taking
00:09:59.240cues from new media, doing long form, doing podcasts, and trying to spread their content
00:10:08.080that way. I don't know if it's sustainable for them to do that as well. I think we're just seeing
00:10:17.740in general people are gravitating towards new ways of digesting information and how they find
00:10:24.360And it and yeah, it does cause the problem of echo chambers again still.
00:10:28.900But yeah, you have sort of a saturated media market with commentators.
00:10:33.820And I don't think mainstream news outlets can necessarily compete with with like long form YouTube channels or podcasts like Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan, for example, like pulls millions, millions for his podcast.
00:10:51.300a lot of people go to him for information rather than because I'd rather hear Joe Rogan just shoot
00:10:57.640the shit with people they're not going to get that from media outlet so they try to like they try to
00:11:04.240do things like podcasts and long-form discussions but I'm not sure if it's going to take off the
00:11:08.660same way as some other channels would and Emily it seems to me that we live in an age where people
00:11:14.920are more distrustful of mainstream media than ever yeah is that because of the internet and
00:11:20.560it's just hyperbolized that or is it actually that people more and more just switching off
00:11:26.120and think to themselves you know what I do not want to engage with this anymore um I think
00:11:30.660there's sort of a combination of um if people see something in the news that they know isn't true
00:11:38.240then it's kind of a disillusionment factor there um like I know for me specifically I used to take
00:11:45.120when I was younger I kind of took the news at face value because you're you trust them to tell
00:11:50.360you the truth. And then when I started covering things and then seeing things in person and then
00:11:55.460seeing it reported in a totally different way, then I was like, okay, well, I guess I can't trust
00:11:59.060it anymore. And I think, especially when you have misrepresentations of what people say,
00:12:04.260you lose a lot of people that way. But I also think there's sort of this bias towards, you
00:12:11.940know, whether it's partisan media where people don't want to believe it or, yeah. But I do think
00:12:16.360for the most part, a lot of outlets have ended up shooting themselves in the foot just by reporting
00:12:22.300misinformation or disinformation. And it's also the style of conversation. I mean, I remember
00:12:28.880the Kathy Newman, Jordan Peterson interview. I don't know if you caught that. And the Channel
00:12:33.8004 argument, if you're a producer, there's go, look, we did this great thing. We got
00:12:37.46020 million views on YouTube. Isn't that brilliant? I mean, we've just got a huge audience that we've
00:12:43.220attracted. But most people who watch that will never watch a Kathy Newman interview ever again.
00:12:48.860That's a perfect example. Yeah, no, and exactly. It's like, they'll probably look at that and be
00:12:53.720like, wow, look how much controversy that generated and got us a bunch of views. You know,
00:12:58.280bad press is still press. But again, they're not realizing how much of how much of the trust they
00:13:04.680lost from their audience by doing that kind of thing. And tell us about Subverse News,
00:13:08.660which is the organization that you co-founded what is the the antidote that you're trying to
00:13:13.900offer what's your angle if you like um we just pretty much try to report straightforward facts
00:13:19.220with context that like that shows what matters in a situation we don't um we don't cut up
00:13:25.480interviews to make people look stupid we don't do uh combative or uh advocacy journalism um we
00:13:32.540pretty much will interview people and let them say their thing for the most part like we'll
00:13:37.640obviously fact check if somebody is spouting nonsense, but at the same time, I think there's
00:13:43.960some merit to hearing people lie, and even if they don't know they're lying, if they're just
00:13:52.060basically talking about talking points, for example, like in a lot of protests we cover,
00:13:57.560a lot of people will echo back just the talking points that they hear in the media and stuff like
00:14:02.380that. But there are some other situations where we can point specifically to somebody lying and
00:14:08.400saying this is actually what happened. But we're basically just trying to come back with an
00:14:14.880approach that gives people information to make up their own minds. Sounds like a gateway to the far
00:14:19.580right. And on that note, that is something you have been looking at, haven't you? Looking at
00:14:25.400the far right. And is there a rise in the far right now? Very much one of the narratives that
00:14:30.860have been parroted in the mainstream media is that we have seen a rise in white nationalism,
00:14:35.840the far right. Is this true, particularly in America? I would say in America, I don't think
00:14:41.040they ever really went away, but I think we're seeing them more active in rallies. And recently,
00:14:48.080it's been kind of a hyper focus of some outlets just saying, oh, you know, this is far right,
00:14:55.800This is extremism. This is white nationalism. And I think people really do a disservice to to those actual problems when they will pretty much throw the label out on anything that they kind of suspect of being like alt-right.
00:15:10.860If they even if they don't really know what that means, there are a lot of issues in the U.S. with white nationalism, white separatism and just white supremacy in general.
00:15:20.380But I don't think it's as huge of an epidemic as a lot of people try to make it out.
00:15:25.800Um, I think after, you know, there is a lot of it is reactionary where, um, there were like white
00:15:33.220live matter, white lives matter rallies that were white nationalist groups coming out and
00:15:38.460just trying to almost be antagonistic. A lot of them do, a lot of them do just want to cause
00:15:44.440controversy and hope that Antifa will show up so they can get into a street fight with them and
00:15:49.940it's worked. And so, I don't know, I think they're getting a lot more attention than they
00:15:57.060should. And I think they're actually probably, they're probably finding it easier to recruit
00:16:01.520with people throwing around terms like alt-right, white nationalists, because they're making it
00:16:06.960sound, somebody who isn't necessarily that extreme will say, oh, well, they're calling me a white
00:16:11.460nationalist anyway. Maybe I should like, maybe I should go with that group that they might not be
00:16:16.560all that bad anyway. So people are being pushed into it is what you're saying. I think by using
00:16:21.520the terms irresponsibly, I do think it is a recruiting tool. And I, so we both work in comedy,
00:16:29.520which is very woke and, you know, social justice or the rest of it. Now, a lot of people have told
00:16:36.340me that Donald Trump is a white supremacist. He's a white supremacist president. He's a sign that
00:16:44.020that we have a rise of the Nazis in the US. Would you agree? And what are your opinions on this?
00:16:50.380Because this is a narrative that is being pushed forward. Yeah, I hear it all the time too. Yeah,
00:16:54.100people equating the Make America Great Again hat to the KKK hood. I think that is a gross
00:16:59.680oversimplification of, I don't doubt that, like, I don't know, I don't know him personally, but I
00:17:06.260also think i don't think uh he's gotten i don't think he's even been endorsed by a whole lot of
00:17:14.780white nationalist groups because it's too extreme um but there are some things that he said that
00:17:23.020people will try to jump on and be like oh look he's supporting white supremacists he's supporting
00:17:26.440white nationalists but um there's there's things that he does that white nationalists and white
00:17:32.500supremacists don't agree with, like mainly things with Israel. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's
00:17:38.640a really gross oversimplification to call him a white supremacist or a white nationalist.
00:17:43.920All right. And what about on the other side? Because as you say, there are issues around
00:17:48.300white supremacy in the United States. There's residues of that that is happening. You do see
00:17:53.560them showing up armed and being violent and, as you say, hoping for Antifa to turn up. But what
00:17:59.260about on the other side what about antifa what are they doing what is what is your reading of
00:18:04.060them because you've reported on this quite a bit uh so it's interesting because like i've covered
00:18:08.600antifa in various countries and the u.s one is kind of well i want to say i'll try to be nice
00:18:16.600um disjointed and disorganized and i don't know i don't know exactly what they're they're aiming
00:18:26.000to achieve. But the ways that they're doing it, by intimidating people, harassing people,
00:18:33.400I don't think that is an effective way to do whatever they're trying to do.
00:18:39.860There's, I don't know, I think a lot of people are searching for meaning right now, because they
00:18:45.240don't have either, they don't have much going on in their life to give them meaning. And when you
00:18:49.440put a cause in front of someone, you say, hey, let's be anti-fascist. Like, yeah, of course,
00:18:54.140Like, why wouldn't you be an anti-fascist? Nobody, nobody in their right mind would be pro-fascism, I believe. But when these kind of movements get co-opted by people who have either, I guess, I guess I'm still trying to be nice.
00:19:10.420But I want to say issues where they really succumb to mob mentality and harassment, vandalism of people who aren't against them even.
00:19:25.680Yeah, I think in the U.S. especially, they have some issues.
00:19:31.400We've had Andy Ngo on the show, for example.
00:19:34.100Do you think they're a terrorist organization, Antifa?
00:19:36.040I think you have individual members who are using tactics that you could call terrorism to achieve a political end.
00:19:47.700I don't even think they can be considered an organization in themselves because just because you fly a flag doesn't mean you're part of an organization.
00:19:54.880um but i do think there are individuals who are using extremely extremely like
00:20:03.360harsh tactics to intimidate people to cause harm to people and i would call those probably acts
00:20:11.560of terrorism if they're trying to achieve a specific political mean means but again i don't
00:20:17.360even know if they know what they want as far as demands or what what their goals are well anarchists
00:20:23.400being unsure about the calls and people on the left being disorganized i don't even think a lot
00:20:28.760of antifa are even anarchists i think uh a lot of them are trend like a lot of them will try to be
00:20:34.560communist or socialist i don't even know if they understand a lot of the the systems that they
00:20:39.660endorse but it's it's kind of just a trendy thing for a lot of a lot of people it seems
00:20:44.660and it does seem to be something that people put on a twitter bio anti-fascist yeah and then like
00:20:50.720you said it sounds good it sounds like something that you should be we were all anti-fascist
00:20:54.460right yeah i would assume speak for yourself but do you think part of the problem that
00:21:00.900is what happened with things like charlottesville where people think that there is a purpose for
00:21:06.740this movement yes i think uh there are specific things people look at like charlottesville where
00:21:12.940they see if somebody ran over a bunch of protesters and you know that's that's another
00:21:18.400thing it's just you have these certain situations that will give legitimacy to a move to people who
00:21:24.600think this movement is is a good cause and in a lot of ways a lot of people's hearts are in the
00:21:30.800right place but the tactics that are being used aren't necessarily effective or for the good of
00:21:36.740whatever movement they're trying to push and so we've been talking a lot about you know active
00:21:43.060journalism and going in on the ground. We interviewed Melissa Chen, and it was a brilliant
00:21:48.980interview, and she was saying actually it's very, very difficult to find out what's happening
00:21:53.300in Hong Kong, because unless you're on the ground, then things become distorted, and obviously
00:21:58.860it's difficult to get what the real message is out of China. So could you explain to us what is
00:22:04.020actually happening in Hong Kong? Okay, so these protests started back in, I believe, end of May
00:22:11.780or early June, when an extradition bill was proposed. And the extradition bill was, a lot
00:22:18.200of people in Hong Kong saw that as a veiled attempt to be able to extradite people from Hong Kong to
00:22:22.440mainland China. And just with people feeling like China's been encroaching on the rights of Hong
00:22:28.200Kongers, it sort of broke the camel's back. That was sort of the final straw for a lot of people.
00:22:33.380And so they started protesting. And it's funny because what could have been put to rest very
00:22:40.160easily. They ended up withdrawing the bill formally anyway, not too long ago. But if they
00:22:44.820had done that months ago, this wouldn't have spiraled into what it is now. Now they have five
00:22:49.620demands. There's been incredibly harsh police brutality. There's been basically every single
00:22:57.440week there's been protests and they've had up to half a million people marching in the streets
00:23:04.640in pouring rain, in extremely hot weather. And it's just incredible determination on the part
00:23:11.620of these protesters, incredible organization. And it's funny because you're starting to see
00:23:17.000other movements take tactics from the Hong Kong protesters because of how effective they've been
00:23:22.560in just staying unified and staying on message. I've never covered anything like it. It's extremely
00:23:27.740well organized and it's not the kind of solidarity or unification you see in a lot of movements a
00:23:35.020lot of people will try to co-opt it and push their own messages but they have their five demands now
00:23:40.960and which are what so they want full withdrawal of the extradition bill which finally just
00:23:46.280recently happened they want dual universal suffrage for the legislative council and
00:23:51.640i think one of the other i can't remember what the other government body is but they want to be
00:23:56.060able to choose their own leaders rather than having the Chinese Communist Party choose who
00:24:02.500they can elect from. They want the classification of rioters to be dropped because basically in
00:24:12.260order to protest in Hong Kong, you have to apply for a letter of no objection. And if you get that
00:24:17.700letter of no objection, then you can protest. But what they tried to do to stop the protest was not
00:24:23.460not issue any of the letters of no objection. So if they don't, then they get charged with
00:24:27.740rioting. A riot charge can put you in prison for up to 10 years. So they want the classification
00:24:33.400of rioting, of riots to be dropped. They want amnesty for the arrested protesters. How many
00:24:40.980is that? I think that's, oh, and the last one is they want an independent investigation into the
00:24:47.960police for the conduct that they've been using. They've been using expired tear gas.
00:25:01.040When they enacted the anti-mask law, the idea was that you're not allowed to be wearing a mask when you're protesting.
00:25:09.400But they were supposed to make exceptions for people who need masks for work, which would be journalists.
00:25:16.160However, they were still abusing that.
00:25:18.460And they were, even people who weren't protesting, they would arrest them for wearing masks or they would intimidate them.
00:25:25.020They told the journalists that they couldn't wear a mask and threatened to rip them off.
00:25:31.320And, yeah, it's just really no accountability on behalf of the police.
00:25:38.540And basically the government has been running defense for them and trying to justify all of the tactics they've been using.
00:25:45.200And it's it's just it's it's kind of gone out of control.
00:25:49.720The the public in Hong Kong has sort of turned against like one of the main things that a social movement needs is public support.
00:25:57.920And one of the the best ways to squash a movement is to turn the public against them.
00:26:04.460It's extremely hard for them to do that when the police are also harassing, intimidating and brutalizing regular citizens, not just protesters.
00:26:15.200So even if they do try to put undercover police into the protests and have them either beat people up, throw Molotov cocktails or cause general chaos, the overwhelming majority of the public support is still with the Hong Kong protesters.
00:26:31.760Like there was one instance, they were trying to kettle the protesters and basically instead of, because they couldn't run away, they were basically cornered and a bunch of residents opened their doors to let them into the building and hide them.
00:26:46.220You don't really see that in any other protest anywhere else. It's really incredible.
00:26:51.140And the Chinese government have accused, you know, the protesters of violence, of, you know, vandalism, all the rest of it. Is this true? Is it?
00:26:59.080The vandalism is interesting because it's very targeted.
00:27:01.760It's mostly targeted at pro-Chinese companies, companies that come out against the protests
00:27:07.920and then companies that are owned by the mainland.
00:27:12.320I'm sure there's been a couple here and there.
00:27:14.580They have mistakenly targeted some and they actually will release an apology, which is
00:27:22.100Um, and yeah, there has been violence where people who will go and either, they've had issues with people going and taking photos of the faces of protesters. And of course, in that situation, a lot of people fear retribution from the government. So they'll ask if they don't get the person to delete it off their phone, they'll usually beat them up. They'll, uh, yeah, they'll spray paint them.
00:27:45.720Same thing if they find people trying to tear down the Lenin walls and people who have run and almost tried to run over protesters.
00:27:54.560Actually, some people have run over protesters and they pull them out of the car and beat them up.
00:27:58.500So, yeah, there has been violence from the protesters as well.
00:28:02.140And how do you see this going? Because it seems that it's been organically, like you said, happening and growing and mushrooming.
00:28:10.980Surely China, great human rights record, are not going to let this go and keep growing because it undermines their authority.
00:28:20.380Yes. And I think it's you can't really put this genie back in the bottle at this point.
00:28:25.080So I do think they're waiting for something and then they're going to come down pretty hard on it.
00:28:32.500There's various ways they can do that.
00:28:34.920A lot of people have been speculating already because at the People's Liberation Army barracks, there's been footage of people within the barracks dressed up like protesters running around as if they're training to be undercover protesters.
00:28:52.500There's also the emergency ordinance powers that can pretty much deport foreigners, journalists, and it will enact all kinds of, it's basically martial law at that point.
00:29:04.920And the anti-mask law was part of an emergency ordinance, so it kind of shows that they're not opposed to using that.
00:29:13.040So I'm worried it is going to be a pretty brutal crackdown, and that's why a lot of the protesters are asking for help from other countries.
00:29:21.480But, I mean, they're up against an extremely powerful government, and I don't really know how well that's going to go.
00:29:27.800And what was it like for you being on the ground as a foreign journalist in this kind of environment?
00:29:32.160You kind of get royalty treatment, which I am not used to as a journalist among protesters.
00:30:07.180So, yeah, it's it's I get I feel spoiled every time I go over there to cover things.
00:30:12.620And they, you know, it's they're really just grateful people are paying attention to it.
00:30:16.780They really want, especially America, they just want some help.
00:30:21.120And it's it's it's amazing that you say that the way they treat because they're grateful because I suppose they realize that they put their lives on the line here.
00:30:29.100And, I mean, that's the definition of bravery.
00:30:35.240And, you know, the nicer they are to you, the more welcoming, the more likely there is their messages to spread.
00:30:39.960But it's not looking like a lot of Western countries are supporting them.
00:30:45.100No, but I think there's a lot of economic interests in Hong Kong.
00:30:49.680So I think once those things start to be threatened, then Western countries will start paying a bit more attention.
00:30:54.840but i think uh right now a lot of countries are just not i mean it's it's kind of crazy like in
00:31:03.500the u.s you have a couple couple lawmakers who will pay attention and support their uh express
00:31:09.080their support for the protests um however there isn't a whole lot more being done uh u.s congress
00:31:16.360is trying to pass the uh hong kong human rights and democracy act but that's kind of just like a
00:31:21.600broad condemning of human rights violations. The other one that they're trying to pass is the
00:31:26.880PROTECT Act, which would ban the exporting of non-lethal crowd control rounds to Hong Kong
00:31:34.860because of it being misused. So those are just two things that are kind of being done. But I don't
00:31:41.140know how much else is going to be done unless money starts getting involved. It's quite interesting
00:31:46.080that Donald Trump is very much at odds with China and has been since he started running.
00:31:51.600But it's not an issue that he's talked much about, is it?
00:31:54.860No. In fact, it was kind of strange because a lot of people in Hong Kong will express their their want for Donald Trump to do something.
00:32:04.740And then on the Chinese National Day, October 1st, which was one of the largest protests in Hong Kong, they called it the National Day of Mourning.
00:32:13.700Donald Trump tweeted congratulations to President Xi Jinping on 70 years.
00:32:18.040And as everyone was kind of like disappointed at that point, it's like you're congratulating Xi Jinping on a communist regime.
00:32:26.720It's like and well, meanwhile, all of these you have a lot of protesters in Hong Kong, like waving American flags and supporting expressing support for Donald Trump or expressing support for the U.S. in general.
00:32:39.040And it's like I don't want to I don't want them to they're already disappointed.
00:32:43.160I just want to tell them, like, don't hold your breath for him to get involved.
00:33:40.960So, well, with your style of journalism, is there not an argument to say that by its very definition, like eyewitness testimony is extremely unobjective, right?
00:33:51.060The person who is right there in the moment when something happens actually doesn't have a broader objective perspective.
00:38:00.720I mean, Andrew Yang and Tulsi Gabbard are the kind of outsiders.
00:38:05.860And if they were to do well, which at this point seems unlikely, then they'd certainly get my vote.
00:38:10.180But, you know, Elizabeth Warren talking about the rights of transgender Mexican illegal immigrants,
00:38:16.040you're just like, it's not where ordinary people are at.
00:38:19.120what do you make of the the stay of the democratic party and and the upcoming 2020 elections yeah
00:38:25.680there's they've they've got a big battle coming up and the question is like who can actually stand
00:38:31.840a chance against donald trump um and i mean i've got my opinion of who i don't think stands a chance
00:38:39.800and it's it's really it comes down to is it somebody who's going to play his game is it
00:38:44.960somebody who's going to play the populism card or is it somebody who's going to try to rise above it
00:38:48.560is it going to be is the dnc going to make the same mistake and try to rig it for their
00:38:52.920establishment candidate and are they not like you would assume they'd be smart enough to know
00:38:58.840that who's the establishment candidate at this point is it joe biden yes but but also won't come
00:39:05.720out and support him yeah but i don't think it's just by i think they're still waiting to figure
00:39:09.300out who their establishment candidate is because i don't think biden you know even though he's
00:39:12.820pulling pretty high right now i just don't think people think he can win no i think there's a lot
00:39:17.840of, uh, I think whoever's going to win needs to be able to pull back the votes that went from
00:39:24.080Democrat to Trump last time, or not even to Trump, but people who just didn't want to vote for Hillary
00:39:29.640or who just voted against Hillary, because that was a huge issue. Like there were so many people
00:39:34.740who just didn't want Hillary for a lot of reasons. And I think if the, if the Democrats can't
00:39:40.480understand that they're doomed to the same mistakes. And so I think whoever has a chance
00:39:46.380is going to have to be able to take some of those those votes that went to Trump either out of
00:39:53.940protest or out of economic reasons that the Democrats were ignoring. So I think it's it's
00:40:01.040not going to necessarily be a the person who stands a chance isn't necessarily going to be
00:40:06.340pretty far left. I don't think I don't think Americans in general will get on board with that.
00:40:13.480however we're talking about doom to make the same mistakes is it fair to say that they're making the
00:40:18.740same mistakes all over again in fact they seem to be making them harder yeah it blows me away it's
00:40:25.760like they they either don't want to learn or they're just clinging to what little they have
00:40:31.120left i don't know i think they are going to make a lot of the same mistakes because they're just
00:40:34.760so used to their status quo i'm curious there's probably eight or nine candidates currently in
00:40:41.820the race. I think Beto O'Rourke dropped out this morning. So you talk about bringing back the
00:40:47.940voters who either didn't vote or voted for Donald Trump. Conventionally, the argument has been that
00:40:52.620Bernie Sanders speaks to a lot of those people, actually, in the Rust Belt, etc. He's just had
00:40:59.300a heart attack. I'm not sure you come back from that during a presidential election campaign.
00:41:03.960So who are these people that you think might bring some of those people back?
00:41:08.340I think Yang is hitting a lot of the economic issues that people care about.
00:41:12.820I think Tulsi is hitting a lot of the foreign policy issues that people care about.
00:41:17.160This is like a centrist bubble right here.
00:41:20.120I think Bernie Sanders hits a lot of also economic issues, but I think people aren't necessarily going to agree with him on some of the social stance, social issue stances he takes.
00:41:31.680um i think uh i mean in america it's just this whole this whole um health care system thing is
00:41:38.960it's a mess like i don't think anybody really knows what they want out of it and they're scared
00:41:45.000of taxes going up they don't know if it's going to work and it's it's it's a mess so i don't i
00:41:50.360really don't know who would be the one other than like people who can can speak to the same economic
00:41:58.280issues that Trump was talking about. Well, let me put you on the spot before we ask our final
00:42:02.900question, which is, it sounds to me like you think Donald Trump's going to win again.
00:42:07.000I think he's in a pretty good position to, if the Democrats make the same mistakes, yeah.
00:42:15.040And penultimate question, before we ask the final question, it's a bit of a tricky one, but
00:42:21.300how should the Democrats attack Trump? I don't think they should focus on attacking Trump,
00:42:27.800honestly. I think they give him more power that way. I think they've got to, I don't want to say
00:42:33.880ignore him, because you don't want to ignore somebody who's in a position of power who can,
00:42:39.380you know, can do a lot of, make a lot of moves that make a lot of changes and can affect a lot
00:42:47.160of people. But I don't think attacking him is the way to address the problems and to actually
00:42:54.520get support behind the other other side it's like i can't remember which cartoon i remember
00:43:00.720watching where there was this the monster and the more rockets you fired at him the bigger he got