TRIGGERnometry - Eshaan Akbar on Islam, Tolerance and Identity

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantin Kissin. And this is a

00:00:09.660 show for you if you're bored of people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing

00:00:14.260 about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts. Our brilliant

00:00:19.560 guest this week is a former banker, policy advisor, turned comedian, Ishan Akbar. Welcome

00:00:24.540 to Trigonometry. Hello, nice to be here. It's great to have you, man. Thanks for coming on.

00:00:28.520 Thanks for having me.

00:00:29.600 Listen, the first question we always ask people

00:00:31.840 when we bring them on the show is,

00:00:33.780 how are you where you are?

00:00:34.680 What's been your journey through life?

00:00:36.200 How did you come to the point that you're at?

00:00:38.460 Now, well, immediately it was by train,

00:00:41.080 but the whole thing...

00:00:42.320 You're not the first person that's done that joke,

00:00:44.060 I promise you. 1.00

00:00:45.140 Damn it! 1.00

00:00:46.420 You are the first comedian that's done that joke. 1.00

00:00:48.380 That's true.

00:00:49.200 It was done by economists before you.

00:00:51.980 And I read economics at university,

00:00:53.980 so it's a consistent mode of behaviour, I guess.

00:00:56.480 Where do I begin?

00:01:00.060 I was born in Whitechapel in East London.

00:01:04.060 My family called it Brown Mosque.

00:01:05.580 You're welcome.

00:01:08.680 My mum came from a very wealthy Bangladeshi family.

00:01:15.000 My grandad actually helped write the constitution of Bangladesh

00:01:17.580 and made it a secular constitution,

00:01:19.040 making Bangladesh the only Muslim-majority country 0.97

00:01:21.660 which has a secular constitution.

00:01:23.560 So you can thank my grandad for that.

00:01:24.840 But my dad came from the other side of the tracks Pakistani immigrant, you know had to make his way through life 0.66

00:01:31.160 So her parents weren't happy about that. I imagine her parents will help. This is my mom's second marriage

00:01:38.080 All right, so they were anyway

00:01:40.080 Whatever man, the first one messed up is fine. You're going to do your thing

00:01:44.840 And my mom quite controversial for a Muslim woman to get a divorce at that time 0.99

00:01:49.160 it was relatively controversial but because my granddad was he was quite

00:01:53.960 woke for his time he kind of understood the circumstances behind why would that

00:01:58.160 happen to my mum and I'm writing a novel about the whole thing actually so that

00:02:02.600 might come up later but as to why that happened but in any case and why that's

00:02:07.160 important to know is because that then had a big impact on my upbringing my mum

00:02:11.000 was a staunch Thatcherite and my dad was a trade union labourite so I grew up

00:02:17.360 were these two opposing views in the house.

00:02:19.800 Both identified as Muslim and gave me, for all intents and purposes,

00:02:24.920 quite a decent Muslim upbringing.

00:02:27.240 Although my mum went to a Roman Catholic private school in Bangladesh.

00:02:32.120 So when I was six and I was beginning to show signs of,

00:02:36.800 I wouldn't say radicalisation, but basically I had a few choice words

00:02:40.400 about Jewish people at six years old, right?

00:02:42.680 Well, we didn't know that when we invited him on.

00:02:47.340 I did.

00:02:49.480 But, you know, I was six.

00:02:50.720 I didn't really know what I was saying.

00:02:51.880 I was just, you know...

00:02:52.680 But, you know, you were just motivated by the truth.

00:02:56.180 He said it, not me.

00:02:57.480 But I was just espousing the views I might have heard

00:02:59.420 in mask school amongst my friends.

00:03:02.000 And it was my mum who basically... 0.92

00:03:03.980 Well, first she beat me up when she heard it. 1.00

00:03:05.740 And then she explained to me that, you know,

00:03:08.440 it was a lottery of life that meant I was born into a Muslim family

00:03:10.900 If I was born in a Jewish family or a Christian family,

00:03:12.900 I'd be saying that they're the best religions

00:03:14.560 and whatever else.

00:03:15.760 So because of my mom, I had a bit of a liberal attitude

00:03:19.900 towards faith anyway.

00:03:23.260 Then I went to a Church of England private school,

00:03:26.320 became the first Muslim choir boy, which is just,

00:03:30.640 it was a whole mess of stuff going on.

00:03:33.380 I was the poorest, fattest kid at the school.

00:03:36.100 I was there on academic scholarship. 0.84

00:03:38.440 I was a complete misfit.

00:03:39.920 And then with the other Muslim boys who were there,

00:03:41.720 I think it was about four or five of them,

00:03:43.460 here I am singing hymns about Jesus being Lord.

00:03:46.700 And so I was just a constant confusion to everyone.

00:03:53.300 All that said and done, during that time,

00:03:55.540 I then went to university.

00:03:57.260 While I was at university, I was a part-time Bollywood dance

00:04:00.540 choreographer.

00:04:05.120 That's on your face.

00:04:06.120 That means nothing to me then.

00:04:07.420 I'm just sitting here trying not to be racist.

00:04:13.540 I'm trying to stereotype him anyway.

00:04:15.280 Yeah, I really did.

00:04:17.180 I mean, I caught it in choreography.

00:04:18.340 It was just waking up every day and just dancing, right?

00:04:20.680 Random people following me behind.

00:04:22.740 And after I graduated, I joined a bank and was a private banker.

00:04:27.020 So I did wealth management for celebrities.

00:04:29.840 Then a 2008 financial crisis.

00:04:32.160 I was very easily expendable.

00:04:35.000 So I was made redundant.

00:04:37.020 then did a master's in global governance and public policy.

00:04:42.160 Worked in government for a bit,

00:04:43.640 where they sent me out to local authorities

00:04:45.260 to give policy advice.

00:04:47.380 Bet that was good.

00:04:48.460 That was good. It was good, actually.

00:04:50.020 It was at a time just around the coalition,

00:04:52.320 and we did the census in 2011,

00:04:56.920 and that was when there was a lot of stuff.

00:04:58.720 My greatest achievement in that job

00:05:00.580 was getting a Conservative MP to defect to UKIP.

00:05:05.340 Douglas Carswell?

00:05:06.540 No, Suzanne Evans.

00:05:08.160 Oh, really?

00:05:09.320 I don't even remember she was a conservative.

00:05:11.300 Yeah, she was too early in the beginning.

00:05:13.140 And at the time, we were at Merton Council,

00:05:15.520 and she was upset about the number of white people

00:05:17.920 being reduced in Merton,

00:05:19.420 and she thought this was some sort of conspiracy 0.62

00:05:23.000 by ethnic minority people to get rid of white people. 0.58

00:05:25.820 And all it was is white people had more money

00:05:27.500 and moved into Surrey.

00:05:28.900 And also, as well, nobody wants to live in Morden.

00:05:31.800 Precisely, no one wants to live in Morden.

00:05:32.880 So that, and then during that time, I started running through a few newspapers,

00:05:38.000 started some opinion pieces for The Guardian and The Times,

00:05:40.540 started working in a few different places,

00:05:42.820 had my sights set on becoming a broadcast journalist.

00:05:45.880 The producer of the show said, you're quite funny, you should try stand-up.

00:05:48.600 That was four years ago.

00:05:50.660 Started doing stand-up.

00:05:52.180 A year later, I joined HSBC as a speechwriter to the CEO and comms advisor.

00:05:57.960 And then a year after that, quit to do comedy full-time.

00:06:00.940 Lovely.

00:06:01.560 And now you're here.

00:06:02.140 Now I'm here, doing trigonometry. Made it.

00:06:04.600 Yes, exactly.

00:06:06.740 So I'm just curious in terms of religion.

00:06:09.480 It sounds like, I mean, I don't want to stereotype,

00:06:11.760 but when I think of Islam, I don't think of the most liberal kind of upbringing.

00:06:16.200 What you're talking about, what your mom taught you,

00:06:18.220 seems like a very liberal thing, right?

00:06:21.520 So it was for me.

00:06:22.740 So I think for me what was difficult growing up was

00:06:25.400 I was given a very liberal view of what Islam is,

00:06:28.240 but then I was surrounded by people who didn't share the same kind of views so for example one

00:06:35.280 of my mom's closest friends growing up was a gay hairdresser who I remember very distinctly in 1988

00:06:41.520 first time I met my dad and he he had his sights on my dad basically it was very funny seeing him

00:06:50.040 kind of sat next to my dad and my dad kind of edging away going I don't know how to deal with

00:06:53.120 and my mom just cracking up saying, 1.00

00:06:54.620 this is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

00:06:57.800 But then when I would go to mosque for my Quranic teaching,

00:07:04.000 the things they'd say about gay people, the things they'd say

00:07:07.960 about the West, and certainly after 9-11,

00:07:11.360 there was a real shift to the right, as I'd call it,

00:07:14.360 within the mosque, which alienated me a bit more.

00:07:18.200 And it was curious to me, because even, for example,

00:07:20.440 my dad's side of the family as well,

00:07:22.780 They've got some very choice things to say about what

00:07:26.020 we would consider to be quite liberal topics,

00:07:29.000 LGBT community and all this kind of stuff,

00:07:32.860 even Jews, whatever it might be.

00:07:34.360 And they're quite vocal about their displeasure

00:07:36.540 with many things.

00:07:37.900 Israel comes up, and you can well imagine 1.00

00:07:40.240 what views are in most places about the existence of Israel.

00:07:47.200 So for me growing up, it was very difficult reconciling

00:07:51.520 what I believed to be my community when I was outside

00:07:54.200 of the house to the stuff my parents were saying to me.

00:07:57.760 My parents would pray, and they would identify themselves

00:08:01.020 as Muslim.

00:08:01.720 My mom, who passed away four years ago,

00:08:03.460 she was buried a Muslim and was given a Muslim burial.

00:08:08.640 And my dad would still identify as a Muslim.

00:08:10.380 He doesn't drink.

00:08:11.140 He doesn't eat bacon or any of that kind of stuff.

00:08:14.960 I don't see him pray, but when he does get in the car,

00:08:17.460 he'll say a little prayer before he sets off.

00:08:20.760 Car and flight.

00:08:21.920 Car and flight.

00:08:23.060 Yeah, that's how we...

00:08:24.180 Even I say a prayer when I get on.

00:08:26.220 Do you?

00:08:26.840 Easy jet, yeah.

00:08:28.560 Yeah, so car and flight, any kind of travelling,

00:08:31.320 I see my dad doing a little prayer,

00:08:32.460 but that was difficult for me.

00:08:34.620 So I was a misfit in the mosque as well,

00:08:37.360 even when I led the call to prayer in the mosque.

00:08:40.520 I did it, and at the time,

00:08:42.480 I believed in the goodness of it

00:08:44.340 and the intention behind it,

00:08:46.100 but actually my version of Islam that I grew up with

00:08:48.720 isn't the version of Islam that I think we see in the UK and I have a theory as to why this might

00:08:55.060 be the case and I think it's to do with the socioeconomic status of migrants who come to

00:09:00.860 the UK and bring a conservative brand of that faith with them because most liberal attitudes

00:09:07.780 in almost any faith group particularly in Islam tended to be when the upper echelons of their

00:09:13.500 society. So the Ottomans would rule a Muslim empire but actually would drink 0.98

00:09:17.880 and have concubines and all this kind of stuff. 0.99

00:09:20.000 Legends.

00:09:21.000 Absolutely legends, right? And even there's evidence to suggest that during the Islamic 0.99

00:09:26.680 Enlightenment, which most people regard as being between the 8th and the 14th

00:09:29.760 centuries, it was quite a long time in terms of scientific advances and social

00:09:34.260 advances.

00:09:35.260 Well, they led the world in medicine and maths as well.

00:09:38.260 Yeah, all that kind of stuff. And when Islam came to be, it did this audacious 1.00

00:09:43.080 thing of giving women rights to an inheritance and allowing women to, excuse me, divorce their 1.00

00:09:47.660 husbands and all this kind of stuff. So it was quite progressive, but the people who were able

00:09:53.740 to exercise those progressive behaviours tended to be in the upper echelonist society, and the ones

00:09:59.880 who couldn't tended to be in the lower end. Most migration, if you see anywhere, tends to come from

00:10:04.480 people who are from lower socioeconomic groups. That's why they move. There's loads of my family 1.00

00:10:09.680 members who just haven't left Bangladesh because they've got 15 servants and they're very happy.

00:10:16.360 We should move to Bangladesh, mate. Maybe even you and I can afford a servant in Bangladesh. 1.00

00:10:20.700 Mate, I'm going to Bangladesh just to be able to afford property.

00:10:23.960 Yeah, pretty much. It's interesting when you talk about, actually, what I was going to ask you,

00:10:29.920 do you think it's also to do with the fact that if you're a minority, you have to work that much

00:10:34.240 harder to kind of preserve your identity? I see it with the Russian community in this country. 1.00

00:10:38.100 Loads of people who are not religious will go to church because it gives them a place where they can come to and be in a community.

00:10:45.760 And as a result of that, they kind of become, you wouldn't say they're religious, but they kind of get into that circle.

00:10:53.900 Yeah, I think absolutely that has a big part to play because obviously the mosque is going to be the place where you get advice about stuff, about how to survive in this country and all this.

00:11:01.900 and by osmosis you'll pick up some views but also and this is something I found having gone to

00:11:09.380 being a brown kid in private school having worked with during my banking days people at the very top

00:11:16.680 end of British society to survive you have to sometimes not necessarily agree with but allow

00:11:25.500 certain views to be expressed and over time my feeling is that people hear those views you might 0.54

00:11:33.660 not necessarily believe them but it's much easier to be like yay i i i hate gays too even if you 0.84

00:11:40.620 might not and a child or a nephew or someone might hear you saying that and they're like okay that's

00:11:46.320 what i'm supposed to do and those views just tend to permeate permeate so i think there's absolutely

00:11:50.620 some something in the fact that people have to stay close to their communities and how big

00:11:55.440 a problem do you think these types of views are within the faith? Do you think they're

00:11:58.520 a major problem or is it just a small subset of people or is it widely prevalent? I know

00:12:03.360 it's a very difficult question.

00:12:04.300 Yeah, it's a difficult question. I think the first thing to say is, the reason it's

00:12:08.100 difficult to say, answer that properly, is because to refer to Islam as one thing is

00:12:12.520 actually quite complicated. I don't think calling Islam Islam is helpful because there 1.00

00:12:17.860 are so many sects within Islam, more so than almost any other, I think, because the formation

00:12:24.720 of Islam was in a part of the world where there were so many tribes and the reason why when people 1.00

00:12:31.860 say Islam means peace is because the word literally does translate to peace and the reason it

00:12:36.300 translates to peace is because when the Prophet Muhammad is said to have received his revelation

00:12:39.660 his whole intention was to encourage peace in the Arabian Peninsula so there's 12 months in the

00:12:45.520 Arabic calendar three of which are just about truce one of them being Ramadan where the idea 0.73

00:12:51.460 is just don't fight.

00:12:54.180 And a central theme of the Prophet Muhammad's ideology

00:12:58.900 was something called the Ummah, which means community.

00:13:01.680 And the Ummah included Christians, Jews, pagans,

00:13:04.940 all this kind of stuff.

00:13:05.760 And this is in the seventh century.

00:13:06.600 But now, if you speak to people and ask them what the Ummah is,

00:13:09.140 they'll say it's just Muslim.

00:13:12.460 And so for that reason, it becomes problematic

00:13:15.580 to be able to give one homogenous view of what I think

00:13:19.240 Islam or people who identify as Muslim would say.

00:13:22.300 However, that said, I am willing to go out on a limb

00:13:27.820 and say that, in a generic view across all those tribes

00:13:31.900 and people who identify themselves

00:13:33.280 within the umbrella of Islam, they probably

00:13:37.340 don't like the LGBT community. 1.00

00:13:39.340 They don't approve of it.

00:13:41.320 And that is, I think, problematic.

00:13:44.020 For me, it's problematic, certainly, because, well.

00:13:47.620 I thought you were going to come out.

00:13:49.380 No, no, no.

00:13:50.760 It's problematic because I'm...

00:13:53.400 Mate, he's not gay.

00:13:54.180 No, not in that chair.

00:13:55.220 Oh, thank you.

00:13:56.100 I identify as 86% straight.

00:13:59.560 That's how...

00:14:00.400 What, did you do your own sort of referendum with your body?

00:14:03.820 Yeah, basically.

00:14:05.020 He's straight during the week, though.

00:14:06.300 That's what he means.

00:14:07.040 I was just like, how many men does one have to kiss 0.75

00:14:10.120 before they identify as gay? 0.94

00:14:13.200 You've got to try it.

00:14:14.060 I believe this.

00:14:14.860 I believe...

00:14:15.280 I mean, this is a tangent.

00:14:16.260 You've got to kiss the boy.

00:14:17.380 I'm on less than eight.

00:14:20.180 I won't tell you the number, but I'm on less than eight

00:14:21.980 and more than two. So you put six,

00:14:24.120 basically. I'm on six. That's correct.

00:14:26.220 But you've got to try it in order to find out.

00:14:28.080 You did disgust me.

00:14:30.460 The Russian comes out. 0.97

00:14:31.660 The Russian comes out. 1.00

00:14:33.300 You must be burned. 0.99

00:14:35.640 Look at his very monochrome colours. 0.98

00:14:38.900 Nothing from the rainbow there.

00:14:40.400 Having said that, we did get

00:14:41.860 a psychologist on, a very prominent,

00:14:43.900 notable psychologist, and

00:14:45.380 she was talking to me and directing her attention

00:14:47.760 to me, and I thought, oh, she really

00:14:49.780 likes me. No, it wasn't. She just thought Constantine

00:14:51.880 was gay. She thought I was gay?

00:14:54.940 A psychologist.

00:14:56.120 Thanks, Diana.

00:14:58.660 She could just see through you.

00:14:59.800 Yeah.

00:15:01.000 Yeah, okay.

00:15:03.020 But, you know, so back

00:15:04.080 to your point, the question you asked earlier.

00:15:06.340 You were talking about how 0.61

00:15:07.760 people in the Muslim community don't like gay people. 0.81

00:15:10.440 Yeah, and I think 0.94

00:15:11.820 that that's probably fair to say.

00:15:14.140 Well, there were surveys of British Muslims, and I think more than 50% of British Muslims say that homosexuality should be illegal.

00:15:22.440 It doesn't surprise me at all.

00:15:23.660 It doesn't surprise me at all.

00:15:25.080 Because it's curious to me, because a lot of Muslim friends I have, a big part of their humour growing up that I've seen, erred on the side of faux homosexuality. 1.00

00:15:38.960 Yeah.

00:15:39.900 So, and I guess we're now in a place where faux homosexuality probably isn't that funny anymore. 0.67

00:15:47.160 Because that, you know, when we were kids, we'd be like, oh, that's gay, this is gay, that's whatever.

00:15:50.540 But I certainly remember a time growing up where, can I swear on this podcast?

00:15:55.920 Of course you can.

00:15:56.820 It's a free speech podcast.

00:15:57.960 Free speech podcast. 0.99

00:15:58.720 Say whatever the fuck you want. 1.00

00:15:59.560 So basically, you know, my Muslim friends would be like, oh, you're kind of like that. 1.00

00:16:05.020 I want to fuck you. 1.00

00:16:08.260 Hilarious. 1.00

00:16:09.180 But then they are so vehemently opposed

00:16:12.360 to the idea of someone literally doing that.

00:16:15.940 And I remember when I was 12 years old, my,

00:16:19.360 you're going to like this story.

00:16:20.020 So when I was 12 years old, my Pakistani side of the family,

00:16:23.240 there's a few cousins I have who are kind of emcees and rappers.

00:16:26.480 And I don't want to shock you, but emceeing rapping

00:16:29.680 is something I'm not very good at, right?

00:16:31.980 So we went around to the house.

00:16:35.540 My cousins were rapping.

00:16:37.040 And they said, Dishan, why don't you rap to the beat?

00:16:41.100 Now, I didn't have any raps.

00:16:42.320 What I did have was my school song.

00:16:48.620 From your private school.

00:16:49.640 Yeah, which was fluent Latin.

00:16:52.280 So to the beat, I dropped Inpectore Robur. 0.97

00:16:56.340 They stopped, and they said to me, what, are you gay? 0.99

00:16:58.520 What's wrong with you? 0.99

00:16:59.160 Are you gay? 0.99

00:17:00.040 And I remember at 12, saying, well, what's wrong with being 0.96

00:17:03.240 gay? 0.86

00:17:04.080 Oh, boy. 0.90

00:17:05.720 The family got involved. 0.94

00:17:07.560 Uncles were calling my dad saying, your son's gay. 0.95

00:17:09.900 This is unbelievable. 0.98

00:17:11.260 Let's get him to the mosque. 1.00

00:17:12.460 We're going to fit the imam to sort him out.

00:17:14.200 I was like, oh, maybe.

00:17:17.280 But I saw firsthand just how angry that particular idea

00:17:23.080 became.

00:17:24.580 I saw firsthand after 9-11 how angry people are

00:17:28.380 about the idea of the West whilst espousing those views

00:17:33.120 in the West, and I always found that a bit curious as well,

00:17:37.240 being like, hold on, you're telling me all this stuff

00:17:38.700 in English in a mosque in East London,

00:17:41.460 having just driven your BMW here, 1.00

00:17:43.960 complaining about how shit the West is, 1.00

00:17:46.100 and Western foreign policy, and this, that, and the other. 1.00

00:17:49.160 Your tax is going to fund those wars,

00:17:53.660 which is an unfortunate reality for all of us.

00:17:56.000 If it matters to you that much,

00:17:58.300 go over there and sort it out.

00:18:00.660 But people wouldn't like me saying that.

00:18:02.360 Really?

00:18:03.200 Surprise, surprise.

00:18:04.360 Yeah.

00:18:05.880 It's exactly the same with Russians. 1.00

00:18:07.940 It's exactly the same.

00:18:08.880 I know so many people in the Russian community in this country

00:18:11.200 who go on and on about how terrible Britain is. 1.00

00:18:13.100 And I'm like, well, why didn't you fuck off back to Russia? 1.00

00:18:15.360 Yeah. 1.00

00:18:16.220 Well, I mean, this is...

00:18:17.320 But that's the most British thing in the world, isn't it?

00:18:19.260 Just to moan about something.

00:18:22.180 Yeah, I get that.

00:18:23.360 No, I guess you get that.

00:18:24.440 I do get that.

00:18:25.080 But they're not coming from a British... 0.94

00:18:26.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:28.040 It's like we had it all great in the Soviet Union.

00:18:30.540 I'm like, well, why are you here then?

00:18:31.880 Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of that stuff does happen.

00:18:34.860 And look, I'm not saying that you can't criticise.

00:18:39.460 Of course you can.

00:18:41.000 But for me, it seems to me that certainly the Muslims that I tend to interact with

00:18:47.980 and the Muslims that I know, their criticisms seem to be completely at odds

00:18:53.580 with everything it takes to exist in a liberal-minded Western society.

00:18:59.440 And that, to me, is where there becomes a problem.

00:19:01.280 Because when people say to me, Islam is incompatible with living in the West, I end up sitting there thinking, well, I can see why people would say that. 1.00

00:19:10.840 I can see why people would say that.

00:19:12.580 By the same token, I don't think, you know, real liberalism, if people want to identify that way, is to accept that people are going to be different.

00:19:20.160 It's to accept that there'll be Muslims who won't drink and for them not to be chastised for that.

00:19:25.960 But they are.

00:19:26.920 It's to accept that...

00:19:27.920 Wait, hold on.

00:19:28.500 Are they?

00:19:29.480 Yeah, I think they are.

00:19:30.280 I'm just asking, I don't know

00:19:32.640 I don't drink

00:19:33.480 and ever since I gave up drink in 2011

00:19:36.880 it's been the single most isolating thing

00:19:38.900 I've ever done in my life

00:19:39.780 well there you go, Ishan's come out as gay, Francis has come out as a Muslim

00:19:42.900 on this podcast

00:19:43.700 the trigonometry

00:19:45.200 it triggers us

00:19:47.160 I've got to come out as something now myself

00:19:49.100 the reason

00:19:51.360 I wasn't challenging

00:19:52.520 the assumption, I was asking

00:19:54.420 would Muslims be chastised for not drinking

00:19:57.560 yeah, because I think 0.96

00:19:58.940 One common refrain that's made about Muslims is that they don't integrate.

00:20:02.200 And when you ask someone, what does that mean?

00:20:05.400 They'll say they stick to their own, and they can challenge that and say, well, everyone

00:20:08.860 sticks to their own.

00:20:10.160 The Chipping Norton people are sticking to their own. 0.97

00:20:11.960 The Exeter people you're going to see today are sticking to their own.

00:20:15.080 They say, well, OK, they don't really come to us.

00:20:18.420 And as you probe and you probe and you probe, what that basically means is there are some

00:20:21.440 cultural things that we do in the UK that the Muslim community just aren't privy to, 0.99

00:20:24.880 just aren't part of.

00:20:26.880 And I personally think that's fine.

00:20:28.940 You know, if you don't want to drink, don't drink.

00:20:32.100 And we can talk about alcohol another time.

00:20:33.820 I think alcohol is a ridiculous thing to be legal more so than marijuana. 0.60

00:20:36.860 But anyway.

00:20:38.980 Let's talk about that later on, yeah.

00:20:40.400 Yeah, we can talk about it in a second.

00:20:41.640 But nevertheless, it's curious to me that there are so many views within Muslim households

00:20:52.840 that are fundamentally at odds

00:20:56.620 with so much about what we would consider

00:21:01.080 to be Western liberal values.

00:21:04.280 And in particular, I imagine the attitude,

00:21:06.920 is it the attitude to women you're alluding to here as well?

00:21:09.560 Partly, although I think that's changing.

00:21:11.920 But also, the women thing is an interesting one

00:21:14.900 because I don't want to necessarily align

00:21:20.720 a lot of the applications of what the Quran teaches about women to an Islamic application

00:21:30.940 necessarily, because a lot of Muslim households across the world tend to have quite matriarchal 1.00

00:21:37.380 paradigms, right? So women rule the Rus in the house, women rule the Rus in some communities, 1.00

00:21:44.120 But it is, I would argue, this historical patriarchal attitude that has meant that women have been subjugated consistently and in a way that to you and I in the West would seem quite regressive in those particular communities.

00:22:04.120 communities. Like, you know, Saudi Arabia making the effort to give women the right to

00:22:11.960 drive, which is a risk they're willing to take.

00:22:16.260 Obviously, never seen my mum, mate. Just upload that to YouTube, mate. Cancel now!

00:22:21.980 That's it. That's the core of it.

00:22:23.240 Well, we've lost our one female fan. 0.98

00:22:26.400 I'm joking. I'm joking. Women are wonderful drivers. That's why they get cheaper insurance. 1.00

00:22:30.920 Well, they don't anymore, but they're not allowed to, are they?

00:22:34.280 Are they not?

00:22:35.160 They used to be like, yeah, discrimination, you can't.

00:22:38.440 Discrimination.

00:22:39.440 But probably still, the actuaries probably make sure that women, anyway, that's what I 1.00

00:22:43.000 think.

00:22:44.000 But, yeah, some attitudes to women, attitudes to the LGBT community, attitudes to certain

00:22:55.920 and Western ideologies or Western foreign policy,

00:23:00.620 all of that stuff, in sum, sometimes makes me think,

00:23:06.000 well, I can see why people want to say you're incompatible.

00:23:11.460 Because compatibility, in a sense, in the UK now,

00:23:15.260 there are more halal restaurants.

00:23:17.940 There are more halal dessert bars and all this kind of stuff.

00:23:20.860 Great, wonderful to have that provision.

00:23:24.400 That's not necessarily, you're still

00:23:26.440 doing it within your own community.

00:23:27.980 When you go to parts of Birmingham or Manchester,

00:23:30.280 it's just a sea of brown faces on one street.

00:23:34.060 And that's fine.

00:23:34.600 That's just how communities are formed.

00:23:37.300 But if you're in places like Exeter or, as I was yesterday,

00:23:42.440 Royal Tunbridge Wells, and you open the paper,

00:23:46.860 and that's what you see, you're going to think to yourself,

00:23:49.440 well, they don't want to be a part of us.

00:23:52.900 And actually, to be fair, if you ask them,

00:23:54.020 And they'll probably say, we don't want to be a part with them.

00:23:56.540 And if they're here, we might have to be forced to associate with them.

00:24:02.400 And we don't want that.

00:24:04.140 And that's where these kind of schisms come, I think.

00:24:07.800 Now, what I wanted to do is just drill down a little bit.

00:24:10.800 Where do you think the intolerance to LGBT people comes from?

00:24:15.120 LGBT.

00:24:17.120 Yeah, LGBTQ.

00:24:18.840 LGBTQIAPK. 0.99

00:24:20.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:21.380 LGBTQIAPK. 1.00

00:24:22.220 You said it wrong, you hate gay people. 1.00

00:24:23.820 That's how it works, yeah. 0.99

00:24:25.500 Where does it come from?

00:24:26.780 I mean, because I went to Catholic school,

00:24:30.120 so there's sort of passages in the Bible

00:24:32.940 that some more extreme Christians use

00:24:35.400 in order to justify their intolerance.

00:24:37.320 But where does it come from within...

00:24:39.060 Is it in the Quran itself?

00:24:40.280 Is it explicit within the Quran?

00:24:41.580 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:42.220 It is explicit in the Quran

00:24:43.360 about homosexuality being a sin. 0.63

00:24:46.200 And the Quran also is quite progressive

00:24:49.260 in their

00:24:51.320 displeasure with the homosexual 0.99

00:24:54.160 community because it also specifically talks about 0.87

00:24:56.160 same sex, which the

00:24:58.240 Bible and the Torah doesn't because when it talks about gays

00:25:00.060 it just assumes men.

00:25:02.940 So that's interesting.

00:25:04.720 Go on, go on Islam. 1.00

00:25:07.520 If you're going to 0.99

00:25:08.200 hate everyone, hate everyone equally. 0.54

00:25:10.000 That's the fair thing. And I think it comes from the same

00:25:12.240 place. It's just fear, isn't it?

00:25:13.940 It's just this idea that

00:25:16.060 you know, populations have to increase, and for populations to increase, you need heterosexual 1.00

00:25:23.640 relationships, and homosexual relationships are a barrier to that increase, and particularly when

00:25:30.000 you're a religion like Islam, which is born in the middle of warfare, so you're already quite 1.00

00:25:36.800 isolated, and the only way to expand or protect yourself is to have an expansive population, 0.97

00:25:42.760 homosexuality is a complete barrier to that. I don't personally think that there is more 1.00

00:25:52.800 of a dislike for homosexuality from that perspective as opposed to an inherent idea of it just

00:25:58.300 being wrong because, and this is perhaps my liberal mindedness, all of us, I think, growing

00:26:05.200 up have some sort of challenge with our sexuality. I don't think there's anything as you're

00:26:11.320 100% straight out of the womb. 0.72

00:26:14.000 You can't possibly know.

00:26:16.480 There are moments as a kid, six, seven,

00:26:18.640 you don't know anything, you might see a bloke and be like,

00:26:20.300 oh, he's good looking, oh, I'm feeling things, whatever.

00:26:25.120 So I think it would be ridiculous to suggest

00:26:27.860 that there's nobody in the Muslim community, 0.94

00:26:30.220 even in the seventh or eighth centuries, who weren't gay. 0.96

00:26:35.600 And it's because there were enough gay people 1.00

00:26:38.200 that to be a revelation that God felt was necessary to put to the Prophet Muhammad. There must have 0.92

00:26:44.920 been enough gay people for that to have happened. Do you see what I mean? So if there are enough gay 1.00

00:26:49.800 people in the 7th century, there must have been enough potentially gay people within the Muslim 1.00

00:26:55.720 community. And then for them to be told by Imams, don't be gay, because if you are the big man in 0.98

00:27:01.960 the sky, you're going to be happy about it. Well, this is what I was going to say. You talk about 0.97

00:27:05.880 But Orthodox Christianity, the people who really genuinely follow it and believe it, it's the same. 0.81

00:27:12.540 Everything you've said so far applies equally to them.

00:27:15.760 The hatred of Jews, the subjugation of women.

00:27:20.360 I know a very religious guy in Eastern Europe who I have to see regularly 0.99

00:27:25.700 who said to me that all gay people are pedophiles. 0.97

00:27:29.380 In his defense, he is a priest. 0.97

00:27:35.880 So this is what I'm saying, I don't think this is exclusive to Islam at all, but what

00:27:42.520 I get the sense of is any religion whose adherents are really, really deeply committed to it

00:27:49.300 will typically go much further in those things than a religion that's maybe become more liberalised

00:27:55.500 like, you know, Anglicism or something like that, you know what I mean?

00:27:59.100 Yeah, and I've been thinking about this, which is, you know, Islam, the year in Islam is what, now 1448, I think, something like that.

00:28:11.240 It's a much younger religion.

00:28:12.320 Yeah, it's a younger religion. It's still quite new. 0.98

00:28:14.420 That said, if you've had six centuries of enlightenment where you've really helped society, global society, move forward, I don't see why they shouldn't be liberal or be slightly softer on particularly these kind of issues.

00:28:38.140 Why Christianity has been able to get to a point where gay people can go into church and pray. 0.98

00:28:48.240 And I mean, that said, I don't think a gay person can necessarily go into church and be like, hi, guys, I'm gay.

00:28:53.900 I'm about to pray.

00:28:56.960 I'm really clever.

00:29:00.400 Because I think people do want to hold that part of their identity close to them when they go to a place of religious worship.

00:29:08.140 I think Islam is a long way away from accepting openly that gay or transgender people will come into the mosque.

00:29:16.940 And one or two liberal mosques are opening up.

00:29:19.400 And this will give you an example of where these attitudes prevail.

00:29:23.100 About a month ago, I received a message from a family friend of mine.

00:29:27.880 He's a dentist. He's married. He's got a daughter.

00:29:32.060 So on the face of it, you know, an intelligent bloke, you know, an intelligent bloke, he sent me a message with a picture of this liberal mosque that opened up in Germany that allows transgendered and gay people to pray.

00:29:47.840 And his only quote to it was, a sign of the end of times.

00:29:52.360 And I was like, well, why do you think that that's a sign of the end of times?

00:29:56.300 Sure, that's a sign of progress, a sign of the beginning of time.

00:29:58.400 And he said, this isn't what Islam is about.

00:30:00.360 There is no way that this would work.

00:30:02.600 And I said, OK, what if your daughter decided to be transgender? 0.83

00:30:05.940 What if she felt that she was transgender?

00:30:07.360 And he goes, well, that's not my daughter, then.

00:30:09.940 And this is a guy who was born and raised in England, is my age, is a dentist,

00:30:15.700 and so obviously surrounds himself, and will see people who are from different communities,

00:30:20.300 and has those views.

00:30:23.800 And I said to him, well, if that's the case, what you need to be doing is every time a customer,

00:30:28.700 a patient comes in find out their sexuality if they're gay don't accept their money because you

00:30:34.420 can't yeah you can't do both you can't say i don't think you're allowed to be gay but also i'll take

00:30:39.140 150 pounds for a crown that doesn't make any sense to me um and he's a good example and he

00:30:46.860 and millions of others like him exist they are born in the 80s in the uk have caught bit been

00:30:54.400 here in this wave of liberalism that we've seen and yet are very steadfast in their views about

00:30:59.380 things like this. But do you think the reason for that is fundamentally religion is illogical?

00:31:04.880 It's faith-based. You are asked to believe in something that there is no proof for.

00:31:09.800 So therefore people's belief systems aren't founded in logic because it's illogical.

00:31:15.500 You're absolutely right and that's my feeling as well but a lot of Muslims will turn around and say 0.97

00:31:19.680 Islam is the most logical of all the faiths and their defense for this is to 1.00

00:31:25.200 say that so Islam beyond the actual revelation doesn't have any miracles 0.99

00:31:29.900 everything that happens you know the prophet Muhammad is a 40 year old bloke 0.95

00:31:34.020 he married someone who's you know 15 16 years older than him went through a

00:31:37.140 couple of hours he's just a normal guy who had this revelation all the miracles

00:31:41.320 that exist in the Quran were in the older books the Bible and the Torah because of

00:31:47.400 the Islamic enlightenment, algebra, mathematics, hospitals, all this kind of stuff, they will

00:31:52.620 say to you, well, Islam is very logical. Because Islam is such a way of life, the five times 1.00

00:31:59.600 a day, all this stuff, they will find a logical reason for those rules to exist. But I think

00:32:05.040 you're absolutely right that ultimately, you have to have faith that praying five times

00:32:09.820 a day is a logical thing to do when you're living in the UK

00:32:17.640 and you have to work from the hours of 9 till 5,

00:32:19.980 if that's how your life has panned out.

00:32:22.920 Or not eating when the sun is up for Ramadan.

00:32:26.240 Yeah, for Ramadan, you know, that it's.

00:32:29.420 And they'll say to you, OK, it might be hard for us,

00:32:33.160 but they had to do it in the desert in the 6th and 7th

00:32:37.220 and 8th centuries.

00:32:38.780 And my argument is, well, in the 6th and 7th and 8th centuries,

00:32:42.340 they didn't have jobs.

00:32:44.420 Do you know what I mean?

00:32:45.620 They weren't sat in front of a computer

00:32:47.200 and didn't have Jane's birthday turning up with a cake for,

00:32:50.620 you know, all this kind of stuff.

00:32:54.300 But, yeah, they absolutely have faith,

00:32:58.220 and often there's no reason to that.

00:33:00.620 So let me ask you this question.

00:33:03.020 This is going to be a difficult question to ask,

00:33:05.240 and I don't particularly want to ask it,

00:33:06.420 but I feel like I have to.

00:33:07.340 But you're going to.

00:33:07.860 Yeah, but I'm going to, because I think it's important.

00:33:09.620 See you later, guys.

00:33:11.660 You know how during the Brexit referendum,

00:33:14.460 there was this whole thing,

00:33:15.220 every time UKIP were accused of being racist,

00:33:19.020 Nigel Farage would come out and he'd be like,

00:33:21.520 we are the only party who've said publicly

00:33:25.140 we're a non-racist party.

00:33:27.100 And everybody would look at that and go,

00:33:28.380 well, that means you're probably racist.

00:33:30.520 Do you know what I mean?

00:33:31.400 You know, every time there's a terrorist attack

00:33:33.540 and everyone comes out and goes,

00:33:34.840 Islam is a religion of peace.

00:33:36.400 Yeah.

00:33:36.580 I kind of feel it's a bit like there is a sense in me that you wouldn't constantly be saying it if there wasn't

00:33:42.840 Some kind of issue there. Do you know what I mean?

00:33:44.720 Okay, that's a good question. It's actually a good question. I think

00:33:48.980 Part of the reason why a lot of Muslims in the Muslim community feel the need to do that when a terrorist attack happens

00:33:53.780 Is because the Muslim community is roundly criticized when a terrorist attack happens

00:33:59.920 You know and I like what you did there is you aligned 0.99

00:34:03.060 islamic i'm so fucked man you're like islam to ukip there can i just say we're definitely 0.98

00:34:09.960 going to clip this it's going out on the internet and i'm tagging constantly and my name isn't going 1.00

00:34:15.840 on it if i get a fatwa so you're getting one as well uh yeah you and i just love with ukip

00:34:21.640 they're really putting me in the thank you um but you know what i'm saying right like i personally

00:34:27.380 get i i don't think that islam is particularly any different to any other religion maybe it's

00:34:31.540 younger religion maybe people are more devout and because of that maybe because

00:34:35.860 it was born of war as you say there is a more militaristic element to it but

00:34:41.080 it's just that the way we talk about it it's almost like you can't point out

00:34:44.160 that people of a certain religion do keep committing terrorist attacks you

00:34:48.580 know what I mean? Yeah and the thing is it's fair to say and I talk about this in

00:34:53.320 my show. Yeah we should have made that clear because otherwise it just looks

00:34:57.460 It's like we got a brown guy who just started asking him about Islam for no reason.

00:35:02.080 You talk about religion in your show.

00:35:05.160 We're not...

00:35:06.120 Oh, okay.

00:35:09.340 So in my Edinburgh show, Prophet Like It's Hot, which I'm doing at the Soho Theatre.

00:35:13.900 Great title, man.

00:35:15.060 Thank you very much.

00:35:15.860 I take the copy of the Koran on the stage and I talk about what the Koran says about certain things.

00:35:21.500 And one of the things I talk about is terrorism.

00:35:22.920 And, you know, there is a very clear, distinct passage in the Koran which says that you must, with the might of the pen or the sword, basically get rid of infidels. 1.00

00:35:35.420 That's me and you, mate.

00:35:36.120 That's you.

00:35:36.400 Okay.

00:35:37.020 Now, this is a 7th century text, born of war, that required strength in numbers.

00:35:46.100 and if there are people who you know people who don't um support your ideology when you're in a

00:35:58.060 small village one person is dangerous because they could get the attention of another villager

00:36:04.480 from another tribe and they'll come and kill your whole village okay so for that time 1.00

00:36:08.640 it actually makes sense to me it makes sense that you'd want to protect your own

00:36:13.820 As barbaric as it seems, we're here in the 21st century, the 7th century, life was completely different.

00:36:18.660 Everybody was like that.

00:36:19.500 Everybody was like that.

00:36:20.300 So you're like, you need to do this.

00:36:21.660 Now, it's fair to say that a lot of the terrorist attacks that we hear about, the majority of them have an Islamic element to them.

00:36:32.360 I get really angry when a terrorist attack happens and people come out and say, this has nothing to do with Islam.

00:36:38.820 Hold on a minute.

00:36:39.940 They're not reading the Bible.

00:36:41.580 They are Muslim followers.

00:36:43.820 even if they are extreme right-wing followers,

00:36:46.500 they are still extreme right-wing followers of Islam.

00:36:49.660 And they are conducting these attacks.

00:36:52.360 People then wanting to defend themselves and say,

00:36:54.300 look, we're not part of this.

00:36:55.940 Harks back to the point that I made earlier

00:36:57.540 about Islam being so big and the spectrum being so wide

00:37:01.320 that what the Taliban do and what Al-Qaeda do

00:37:05.160 and what Al-Shabaab do, Boko Haram, all these people,

00:37:08.520 what they do, of course, you don't want to align yourself with

00:37:12.520 because that is an extreme view.

00:37:14.240 But I will say this, if you were to probe enough Muslims, 0.96

00:37:21.300 and I did this with the UKIP manifesto, actually,

00:37:23.640 three years ago, I took a copy of the UKIP manifesto

00:37:26.400 on stage, didn't announce what it was,

00:37:28.900 read out some of their manifesto pledges and said,

00:37:31.120 give me a cheer if you agree with this, give me a cheer.

00:37:32.720 You'd be amazed at how many things people agreed with.

00:37:35.260 People don't want to pay hospital parking charges.

00:37:37.680 UKIP said, we don't want people to pay hospital parking

00:37:39.740 charges, that kind of stuff.

00:37:41.080 But if you took certain elements of, say, the Boko Haram

00:37:43.080 Manifesto and took it to Muslims and asked them 1.00

00:37:47.140 some of the questions that you and I might find a bit,

00:37:51.080 ooh, for example, we don't think the state of Israel

00:37:54.520 should exist, or we think homosexuality is a sin, 0.55

00:38:00.740 I would argue that there would be enough Muslims who would 1.00

00:38:04.920 agree with those statements.

00:38:07.420 And that's where there becomes a problem.

00:38:10.040 I'm by no means suggesting that any Muslim that I certainly 1.00

00:38:13.920 know or have grown up with would condone any kind

00:38:19.020 of terrorist attack.

00:38:21.020 What I think they would condone or agree with

00:38:24.660 is the underlying reasons why that attack may have occurred.

00:38:30.800 That Western foreign policy is killing 0.97

00:38:33.480 Muslims every single day, which may well be true. 1.00

00:38:38.100 that Islamophobia is so rife that attack

00:38:43.220 is the best form of defense.

00:38:45.600 So those kind of sentiments, you see what I mean?

00:38:47.280 So those kind of sentiments may well

00:38:49.780 be not entirely uncomfortable to a lot of Muslims who

00:38:53.860 are the ones to say Islam is a religion of peace. 0.99

00:38:58.100 Because as much as it is a religion of peace,

00:39:00.160 that suggests that if Islam was a religion of peace,

00:39:03.180 the opposite must be true, that there was enough whatever

00:39:06.780 opposite of peace is, strife, violence, that there was enough of the opposite for you to

00:39:11.560 have to have peace in the first place. Do you see what I mean?

00:39:17.660 And so to your point, I don't think it's because they believe or agree with the idea of terrorism,

00:39:31.520 But I do think that a lot of it is them feeling, one, feeling attacked.

00:39:36.140 Because look, there are millions of Muslims who've got nothing to do with what ISIS and

00:39:41.340 all these people...

00:39:42.340 I realised that when I listed out the terrorist organisations, I didn't actually mention ISIS

00:39:45.180 at all.

00:39:46.180 It was the first time I mentioned them.

00:39:47.180 There's so many.

00:39:49.180 But that's key, right?

00:39:56.820 The fact that there are so many Muslim-based terrorist organizations hark to the point 1.00

00:40:04.360 that actually you can't homogenize this group.

00:40:09.100 Because there are Boko Haram people who look at al-Shabaab people and think they're pansies.

00:40:13.620 There was a point that I think a couple of years ago or something, the Taliban had to

00:40:18.500 distance themselves from ISIS.

00:40:20.220 Yeah, I remember that.

00:40:21.220 Do you remember that?

00:40:22.220 To say, this is extreme, what ISIS are doing is extreme, and you're like, what?

00:40:26.420 this is insane but also heard that when ISIS were around in Levant and Iraq the

00:40:38.000 bins were always collected ISIS had one it's like the whole Hitler made the 0.98

00:40:43.400 trains run yeah yeah all that kind of stuff like yeah if you don't put your

00:40:46.880 bins out you don't you'll get killed yeah it's interesting to me just how

00:40:51.200 familiar all this all the sounds to Russians and Russia because Russians say 1.00

00:40:55.580 the same shit about Stalin. 0.98

00:40:57.680 Stalin, well, yeah, 1.00

00:40:59.020 I mean, he killed 50 million people,

00:41:00.640 but there was order.

00:41:02.260 Yeah.

00:41:02.700 There was order, you know.

00:41:04.360 And in terms of the religion as well,

00:41:06.180 like the, you remember

00:41:09.160 the Charlie Hebdo attacks, right?

00:41:10.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:11.020 That same priest

00:41:12.140 that I was telling you about,

00:41:13.600 he was actually defending

00:41:14.860 the Muslims who attacked them.

00:41:16.340 He said they shouldn't be

00:41:17.520 making fun of religion.

00:41:18.940 And anyone who makes fun of religion 1.00

00:41:20.260 should be killed. 1.00

00:41:21.240 Well, there you go. 1.00

00:41:22.080 And it's not just Islam.

00:41:23.280 So I'm definitely not

00:41:24.240 in any way suggesting that.

00:41:25.380 It is, absolutely. Look, I've spoken to Muslim comedians and asked them, if, because of my show, where I take the Quran on stage, if someone was to hurt me, nay, kill me, do you think they'd be justified in that attack, in doing that to me? 0.98

00:41:43.000 Their non-response was telling.

00:41:45.140 Whoa. Comedians.

00:41:47.340 These are comedians.

00:41:47.960 Muslim comedians essentially understand why someone would hurt you. 0.68

00:41:52.700 Yeah. Now, that Muslim... 1.00

00:41:54.380 For taking a book on stage.

00:41:55.740 Yeah.

00:41:56.180 Now, those Muslim comedians,

00:41:58.160 they by no mean condone the act of killing or me being hurt. 0.76

00:42:03.740 Yeah.

00:42:04.560 But what they do understand and sympathise with

00:42:07.880 is the reasons why someone might be...

00:42:09.820 They see where they're coming from, essentially.

00:42:11.280 And how much of this is to do with the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq

00:42:18.780 and everything that happened post-9-11?

00:42:21.020 I'm about to say something that I think

00:42:26.000 is going to get me in a lot of trouble.

00:42:28.320 That's what chicken num cheese for. 0.85

00:42:29.620 Yeah, but also I wouldn't be me if I didn't.

00:42:33.720 I think certainly you and I,

00:42:36.140 I know less so about you,

00:42:37.220 but certainly you and I,

00:42:37.980 I think it's fair to say that we observe

00:42:40.920 that oppression or voicing your sense of oppression

00:42:46.560 is sexy.

00:42:47.660 feeling oppressed

00:42:50.100 and voicing that is sexy

00:42:52.640 there is

00:42:55.540 a strand

00:42:58.700 within the Muslim community

00:43:00.140 which I describe as the

00:43:02.880 Yasser Arafat scarf wearing 0.61

00:43:05.160 sexy group of Muslims 1.00

00:43:07.260 where 1.00

00:43:08.460 you talk about Israel

00:43:10.160 you talk about Palestine

00:43:11.400 you talk about Iraq

00:43:12.460 you talk about Afghanistan

00:43:13.320 you talk about Western foreign policy

00:43:15.240 and you talk about Islamophobia.

00:43:19.000 And that group exists.

00:43:22.420 They're not entirely wrong,

00:43:24.680 but they're a very vocal minority of people

00:43:28.340 who, in a sense, operate in a way

00:43:33.900 that wouldn't be, in my mind,

00:43:35.860 too dissimilar from any other kind of extreme group,

00:43:38.640 in the sense that we're constantly under attack,

00:43:41.560 we are justified in feeling this stuff

00:43:43.460 because we're constantly oppressed.

00:43:45.240 We're justified in feeling this because I can't go through an airport without getting checked.

00:43:49.520 I'm justified in feeling this because I can't get a job because my name is Muhammad Al-Alawgi.

00:43:57.320 I don't deny that those issues exist.

00:44:00.420 My surname's Akbar. I've had enough problems.

00:44:03.860 I've gone through airports nice and easily, and I've also not gone through airports nice and easily.

00:44:10.020 I've missed connecting flights because I'm being checked out.

00:44:12.620 I've also got to places earlier than I should have done.

00:44:15.240 But the Iraq-Afghanistan thing is terrible, but I'd argue we don't talk about the plight of the Rohingya Muslims in as much veracity as we do about Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:44:34.800 That may be because we are Western British Muslims who are in this country and therefore are able to criticise the actions of our government, more so than the actions of the Burmese government.

00:44:45.240 There are some people who are talking about the plight

00:44:47.920 of the Uyghur Muslims in China who are in internment camps.

00:44:53.020 But again, I don't see or think ISIS are flying off to Beijing.

00:45:03.800 Right?

00:45:04.740 I don't see ISIS or al-Shabaab.

00:45:09.440 It's a shorter flight to Burma than it is to the UK or America.

00:45:15.240 And that, to me, is curious, that why if those issues, Iraq and Afghanistan, are bigger than any other, first of all, why should they be?

00:45:27.640 All Muslims around the world who are being subjugated should have, there should be equality.

00:45:33.880 a far east asian or burmese muslim should no be should not be any lesser muslim than an iraqi

00:45:45.120 or an afghanistani muslim but to me there seems to be like there's this hierarchy that exists

00:45:49.620 that we feel more pained about the plight of them they might again the argument might come back well

00:45:55.620 you can't you know be sad about every single thing that goes and you've got to pick on the issues

00:45:59.300 ultimately what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan has galvanized this anti-Muslim attitude that

00:46:06.080 has now prevailed and gone to the Far East. That might be a defense that they'd give me, 0.99

00:46:10.700 to which I'd say I'd call bullshit on that. Because what the Chinese, the Chinese don't 1.00

00:46:17.840 give a toss about what the Americans are doing. They just don't want Uyghur Muslims in their 1.00

00:46:22.340 country. And they're going to put them in camps and they're going to try and brainwash them out 0.98

00:46:25.700 of it. This is happening on our watch. It's a horrible thing. But I don't see the Yasser 1.00

00:46:30.140 Arafat scarf wearer complaining about that nearly as much as he might be about Iraq and 0.52

00:46:35.040 Afghanistan. And then he'll say, you know, Wasim from Bradford, who wants to do a tube

00:46:39.260 attack, is justified in doing so because he's so sad about what's happening in Iraq and

00:46:42.240 Afghanistan. And to me, I'm like, well, that's 15 years ago. What's the shit that we're dealing 1.00

00:46:51.000 with now and also it's ignoring history because bin laden was funded by the cia to fight my 0.99

00:46:57.140 ancestors right yeah in afghanistan of course and then he he he did 9-11 yeah basically biting the

00:47:04.560 apparently biting the hand that fed him and actually don't forget as well that he was an

00:47:10.560 arsenal fan yeah was he yeah he was yeah he used to live he used to live um around arsenal yeah

00:47:16.360 not far away. Grew up in Sweden. Well, make of that what you will. So, yeah, I think there's a

00:47:26.520 kind of ignorance of history there as well. There is an ignorance of history, and also,

00:47:31.140 of course, I get that. We can't possibly, as human beings, be expected to contextualise

00:47:37.820 absolutely everything when it comes to things that hurt us and upset us. What we did, what the

00:47:44.120 British did in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Libya for that matter, and continue to do

00:47:48.940 in Syria, is awful. And moronic too. Moronic, stupid, awful, and it pains me 1.00

00:47:55.520 that my tax, which I'm doing, I'm doing the return soon, that my tax money goes 1.00

00:48:03.620 to that happening. But at the same time, there is so much historical context within Syria,

00:48:15.680 for example, that there is absolutely reason to believe that Bashar al-Assad is killing his own

00:48:22.460 people. There's reason to believe that Colonel Gaddafi, who is one of my top three favourite

00:48:27.120 dictators, by the way, that Gaddafi wasn't the greatest to a large swathe of the Libyan

00:48:33.700 population. And to me, the white man cannot possibly just dominate all the oppression

00:48:43.540 as well. Hitler can't be the worst dictator of all. You know, brown Muslim people can 1.00

00:48:48.640 also be terrible to their own people. And we should be able to criticise and be angry 0.99

00:48:52.860 with them in the same kind of way. But I just don't think, I haven't seen evidence to suggest

00:48:57.900 that people that I know are as angry in their need for some sort of punishment for Bashar

00:49:12.240 al-Assad as they are for Tony Blair. Because it's still part of that sexy parlance and

00:49:18.940 sexy rhetoric around being this oppressed Muslim guy who wears a scarf and is constantly, 0.99

00:49:25.760 I can't even grow a beard anymore because I'm a brown guy and all this stuff, 0.74

00:49:30.000 which I find it difficult to reconcile. I find it quite difficult anyway.

00:49:36.700 We've got about 10 minutes left. Let's talk about, you brought up the idea of oppression

00:49:41.920 and kind of where, and it's not something that you and I have really discussed too much in the

00:49:46.580 past. But I'm just curious what you make of the modern conversation about the point that we've

00:49:52.820 come to where I certainly feel like essentially we're judging each other by the color of our skin

00:49:56.620 and our gender and our sexuality all the time now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's fair

00:50:02.600 to say. I think now more than ever, I feel like I've got to get a flagpole and say, well, this is

00:50:12.740 my identity. It's this, it's this, it's this, this, this, this. And it's exhausting. And

00:50:18.380 I just think that because people have, I think part of it is actually to do with the loss

00:50:23.940 of community in the UK, the loss of community over the last 20 years, that people feel the

00:50:31.560 need to align themselves to something. And they're getting more and more convoluted and

00:50:35.940 more and more complicated. To me, it's no bone off my back if you want to identify as

00:50:42.760 a non-binary, Muslim, transgender, whatever. That's your thing. I don't need to be hammered

00:50:51.700 with it all the time. And also, I should be able to say, hey, do you know what? If I'm

00:50:56.920 about to get down and dirty with a woman, and then I found out she used to have a penis, 1.00

00:51:02.140 suddenly, or I'm about to get down and dirty with a woman and suddenly I see a penis, 1.00

00:51:05.920 I've got to rewire my brain 0.99

00:51:08.520 and just because I've got to do that rewiring

00:51:10.720 doesn't mean that I'm some sort of transphobic

00:51:13.200 freak

00:51:14.300 do you know what I mean

00:51:15.260 and what's curious to me

00:51:18.500 is these attitudes of this

00:51:20.860 self-identification

00:51:21.980 is a liberal one

00:51:23.360 it is a fundamentally liberal idea

00:51:25.460 but those very liberals

00:51:29.000 criticise roundly

00:51:31.480 anybody who has an opposite view

00:51:33.140 and to me

00:51:34.860 I don't understand what kind of liberalism we live in now because for me liberalism is 0.99

00:51:38.280 say whatever the fuck you want, do whatever the fuck you want, be whoever the hell you 0.97

00:51:43.480 want, I'll accept it for it, but acceptance doesn't mean I'm going to embrace everything, 0.99

00:51:50.780 that's not what acceptance is, that's not how societies are formed and communities are

00:51:55.720 formed, because let's say parents of a gay person.

00:52:04.060 Those parents may disagree with the idea of homosexuality 0.88

00:52:08.260 fundamentally, but they'll accept that their son is gay.

00:52:11.100 And that's too completely different.

00:52:12.400 Suddenly the dad's not like, well, OK, now my son's 0.97

00:52:14.320 gay, I guess I better be gay too. 0.56

00:52:17.280 That's not what acceptance is. 0.96

00:52:19.300 And so it's the same idea that at the moment

00:52:20.840 we've got to this point where just because somebody is

00:52:23.780 transcendent doesn't mean I have to kiss a man

00:52:25.900 to prove that I'm not a homophobe. 0.52

00:52:28.460 Yeah.

00:52:29.900 Do you think partly

00:52:31.280 this whole thing with identity, and I

00:52:33.720 felt it a lot myself, is that if you've

00:52:35.900 come from your

00:52:37.340 second generation immigrant, you've got a parent

00:52:39.700 of an immigrant, or like me, your mother's

00:52:41.700 from one place, your father's from another,

00:52:43.780 you've never really had

00:52:45.700 an identity when you're

00:52:47.420 in this country, because you can nearly

00:52:49.540 never truly identify as British.

00:52:52.100 Yeah. And you remember when I went to

00:52:53.540 people would go to me, do you see you as British, Venezuelan, what are you? And you always have 1.00

00:52:58.180 that sort of conflict within you. Do you think maybe that stems from it?

00:53:01.740 Maybe, but I don't know how many second generation immigrants are actually

00:53:04.900 coming out as gay or transgender or whatever. I don't know, and I can't possibly comment on that.

00:53:12.100 I completely hear you. Not only do I have the complication of being a second generation immigrant

00:53:16.080 to South Asian parents, but South Asian parents, one of whom came from Pakistan, one of whom came

00:53:20.080 from Bangladesh, two countries that in 1971 had a massive civil war that resulted in Bangladesh

00:53:25.020 being born. So, and then I was raised in this country the way I was, in quite a middle class

00:53:34.360 way, sound the way I do. So when I go to Bangladesh, albeit speaking Bangladesh fluently, they're 1.00

00:53:40.500 like, well, you're not. You're not one of us, mate. Yeah, when I go to Pakistan, you're 1.00

00:53:45.620 not one of us, you're British. And when I'm here, you know, just last year in Jordan, 0.99

00:53:49.240 I got called a packy.

00:53:51.160 And that was by my dad.

00:53:52.060 No.

00:53:53.560 But by a guy on the street.

00:53:54.520 And it's just like, well, I don't know where I belong.

00:53:57.460 But actually, I can just choose where I feel like I belong,

00:54:01.120 wherever I'm comfortable.

00:54:01.960 And I think a lot of people, that's what they're doing,

00:54:03.360 is they're saying, I want to take ownership of my own identity.

00:54:10.240 And that's great.

00:54:11.860 But me going to an EDL meeting and forcing them to say,

00:54:17.620 I'm British, that's not going to work. 0.61

00:54:21.180 They're not going to be like, oh, yeah, OK, you're right,

00:54:23.300 just because you said it.

00:54:25.040 I now agree with you.

00:54:27.700 And by the way, I'm not aligning the EDL with whatever.

00:54:31.500 So many caveats you've got to do now.

00:54:33.460 I'm just tired of caveating.

00:54:35.060 So when I'm on stage, I just don't bother caveating.

00:54:37.220 If you want to make a judgment about the kind of person I am,

00:54:40.940 because so far, I do this show called Hate and Life.

00:54:47.480 And once I was doing it, so Hate and Life,

00:54:50.120 if you don't know, for the listeners,

00:54:51.180 is basically audience submit little categories or words,

00:54:54.940 and you've got to say why you hate them.

00:54:57.960 And the topic I got was children with cancer.

00:55:01.260 Right.

00:55:01.920 And in the context of that particular,

00:55:03.120 it's quite a funny thing to come up. 0.90

00:55:04.680 And I said, I hate children with cancer 1.00

00:55:07.480 because they're the weakest of all the children I fuck. 1.00

00:55:09.800 Yeah. 1.00

00:55:12.480 Off the cuff, it was quite funny, and people laughed.

00:55:14.480 But of course, people came up to me after being like,

00:55:17.140 Why are you condoning pedophilia?

00:55:20.380 They really came at Hale of Life,

00:55:22.120 a show that specifically warns people

00:55:23.900 that comedians are there to say disgusting things.

00:55:27.300 And that was a line that was crossed, 0.53

00:55:28.700 like, why are you condoning pedophilia?

00:55:30.260 What kind of person are you?

00:55:31.380 They made a value judgment on me as a comedian, by the way,

00:55:34.840 saying something that I knew would get a reaction

00:55:36.960 and would hopefully be funny

00:55:38.080 to at least five people in the audience. 0.94

00:55:41.360 The five degenerates in the audience.

00:55:43.940 But they made a judgment on me,

00:55:45.420 and this is the thing.

00:55:47.140 As a comedian, I see it a lot, the moment you voice anything that doesn't fit within

00:55:54.180 what I call this liberal tyranny, within this liberal paradigm, you are chastised and ousted

00:56:00.880 as a pariah, a social pariah.

00:56:03.780 And that is not liberalism.

00:56:07.080 That is Stasi right-wing Nazi thinking at its core.

00:56:12.680 But they would argue otherwise, they'd be like, no, well, no, you're not accepting.

00:56:16.660 You've hit the nail on the head, man.

00:56:17.980 It's illiberal ideas being enforced

00:56:20.720 through extreme illiberalism.

00:56:22.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:23.300 That's what it is.

00:56:24.100 And that's why we started the show, man,

00:56:25.740 because we're like,

00:56:27.000 we can't pretend to think

00:56:28.880 what we don't think anymore.

00:56:30.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:30.560 We just can't.

00:56:31.380 Yeah.

00:56:32.060 And that's exactly what you said,

00:56:33.520 becoming pariah.

00:56:34.140 It's exactly what's happening.

00:56:34.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:35.520 It's exactly what's happening.

00:56:36.860 And it's going to happen to you now.

00:56:39.060 I'm so glad that this podcast is.

00:56:41.040 It's good to have you on board.

00:56:42.660 Well, we've got to do the last question, haven't we?

00:56:44.900 Do you want to deliver it, the last question?

00:56:46.380 Yeah, absolutely, man.

00:56:47.200 Listen, the last question we always ask is,

00:56:48.900 what's the one thing that we're not talking about

00:56:51.160 that we should be talking about?

00:56:52.480 Absolutely anything could be something in the context

00:56:54.340 of what we've been talking about.

00:56:55.420 Oh, OK.

00:56:56.060 Don't say your show, because we will plug that.

00:56:57.900 Yeah, we won't plug it, yeah.

00:57:00.400 What aren't we talking about that we should be talking about?

00:57:03.300 As a society.

00:57:06.540 OK, I think the thing that we aren't talking about enough

00:57:09.740 as a society that we should be talking about

00:57:11.660 is the impact of tech in shaping societies and democracies around the world because the advent

00:57:26.860 of the internet is what led to the growth I would argue of terrorist organizations like ISIS

00:57:32.960 and al-Qaeda because they're able to galvanize these people from parts around the world and

00:57:39.040 And the fact that online is where communities are formed, the Twitterati, the liberal tyranny,

00:57:47.220 all this stuff, those pockets are going to get stronger and stronger and more acute over

00:57:52.820 time.

00:57:53.640 And my feeling is that there needs to be some sort of global sort of agreement for how society

00:58:00.580 will be structured.

00:58:02.040 Because, for example, China having a closed internet, yet being quite possibly the most 0.84

00:58:08.240 powerful nation on earth is quite a curious situation. And as we become more

00:58:15.260 and more dependent on online and tech, I think there could be some serious

00:58:20.420 ramifications for global society and how they're structured. Excellent. Well, Ishan,

00:58:26.060 you're on Twitter at? I'm on Twitter at Ishan Akbar, but people struggle to spell

00:58:30.260 that, so you have to put in Michael Packintyre to find me. I'm not fucking 0.96

00:58:35.480 Michael Packintyre 0.97

00:58:39.060 We're just going to cut that bit out

00:58:41.860 Just me going

00:58:44.040 Yeah, just you looking at your show

00:58:45.720 and saying the words Michael Packintyre

00:58:46.980 I think that would be a good clip

00:58:48.220 That certainly will trigger a few people

00:58:51.020 Your show, which is brilliant

00:58:53.720 is at the Soho Theatre in London

00:58:55.660 and it's 11th to the 13th of February

00:58:57.680 Yes, 11th to the 13th of February

00:58:58.900 Go and see it, it's absolutely brilliant

00:59:00.260 and if you can't catch that

00:59:01.480 just check out Sean's website

00:59:02.900 and he's got all the dates of him

00:59:04.200 doing different gigs, right?

00:59:05.020 and he's a very very funny guy

00:59:06.840 he's played my comedy club

00:59:07.880 I've seen him many times

00:59:08.740 he's really really great

00:59:09.600 so check him out

00:59:10.540 follow him on Twitter

00:59:11.460 read his Guardian article

00:59:12.740 don't read it

00:59:13.440 don't read the Guardian

00:59:14.100 don't read the Guardian ever 1.00

00:59:15.600 because they're cunts 0.99

00:59:17.260 and as always 0.99

00:59:19.480 subscribe to us on YouTube

00:59:21.180 and

00:59:22.000 if you could subscribe to us

00:59:23.700 on YouTube

00:59:24.200 on iTunes

00:59:25.080 on iTunes

00:59:26.120 so he said the one

00:59:28.000 I already said

00:59:28.720 iTunes

00:59:29.820 iTunes is probably a thing mate

00:59:32.300 so it's YouTube

00:59:33.300 it's iTunes

00:59:34.520 If you could leave us a review, we'd be insanely grateful.

00:59:38.340 Follow us at TriggerPod on Twitter.

00:59:42.520 If you tap or click on the little bell key,

00:59:45.640 it will tell you when we've got new episodes being released.

00:59:49.580 And most importantly, if you could leave a review on iTunes.

00:59:51.920 And if not, just tell a mate, spread the word.

00:59:54.800 Hatred needs to flourish.

00:59:56.840 That's it.

00:59:57.860 We'll see you again next week.

00:59:58.980 See you later, guys.

00:59:59.700 Bye.

01:00:04.520 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - February 03, 2019

Eshaan Akbar on Islam, Tolerance and Identity

Episode Stats

People

Summary

Transcript