00:03:49.260So I was very much entrenched in the very progressive
00:03:52.260and progressive like political movement,
00:03:54.460and then also the climate stuff from the center of this newsroom, essentially.
00:04:00.640Yeah, so that was how I basically spent half my 20s,
00:04:02.760kind of just buying everything as it was sold to me,
00:04:05.220never really investigating, watched a few documentaries
00:04:07.940that honestly convinced me that this was an existential threat
00:04:11.500and did not have a deep understanding of the science.
00:04:15.620And to the point where I'll just anecdotally say,
00:04:17.880like, in 2019, I learned that CO2 was only 0.04% of the atmosphere.
00:04:23.040Up until that point, I'd been covering the climate for four years, and I didn't even know what percent of the atmosphere CO2 was.
00:04:29.320So that was how, like, turned off my critical thinking was, because I was getting so much support from being part of this movement that I just pushed it, right?
00:04:50.380No, no, we didn't bring you here to humiliate you.
00:04:52.780No, it's important, though, because I think it's like showing how someone, even if you're intelligent, thank you, can turn your critical thinking off when you're in group think.
00:05:00.260So this is what I was going to ask you. Why do you think you were and people are susceptible to this thing, even if they are smart and are capable of thinking things through and using critical thinking in another context?
00:05:13.420Yeah, so, I think there's a confluence of things,
00:05:17.000of timing, and my generation, and technology, and politics,
00:05:20.800because, again, I'm a millennial, I'm, like, the perfect...
00:05:23.840I was born in 1990, so this is my mid-20s, it's 20 teens,
00:05:27.140social media's picking up, I'm scrolling on my algorithm,
00:24:14.720This is something that Orwell wrote about in 1984, that it is young women that tend to go for all these social, I don't know what the right word is.
00:24:25.500Like social justice causes, essentially.
00:24:27.680But also, I guess he wasn't really talking about social justice.
00:24:30.740I think he just meant if there was a kind of social derangement in which everybody went in a particular direction, it didn't have to be about social justice necessarily.
00:24:39.740It was just about a lot of people who hadn't thought about something critically, but felt very passionately that it was the right thing to do.
00:24:48.120Does that match your experience with the people around you, young women?
00:31:45.600So again, the younger generation, they're getting this from their teachers as a curriculum, and so they have it way more in their psyche than we do, elder millennials that we are.
00:31:58.800I hate to use this term because it's kind of hyperbolic, but it feels appropriate. It's kind of brainwashing, isn't it?
00:32:05.300Yeah, I think it's brainwashing, and I'll be even more hyperbolic. I say it's a crime against humanity. I really do.
00:32:10.940I think that the teachers and the schools, again, they pushed this ideology.
00:32:15.860And I think in their minds, they were saying, we're doing the responsible things.
00:32:18.800These kids should know that the planet is burning and they should know in fifth grade.
00:32:22.880Not that they can do anything about it, but they should learn so they can grow up and be an activist or whatever.
00:32:27.900And I think, unfortunately, again, we now know that the tide's turning a bit.
00:32:34.180There's been a bit of a vibe shift because reality is hitting with the energy prices and everything.
00:32:39.420But think about the social costs back in the day of if you're in 2015 saying, actually, maybe we don't teach climate to fifth graders.
00:32:47.380They'd say, well, you're a climate change denier and you would be ostracized or maybe even be pushed out of a position.
00:32:53.360So it just was a snowball, compounding effect.
00:32:58.840And it really hit every level of our education system.
00:33:03.000And it's such a waste of human capital.
00:33:05.840And Lucy, obviously, since you've evolved in your views, I'm sure that one of the things you've done is gone through some of the main things that you used to believe and done the research and looked into it.
00:33:17.580And there are so many things that are now effectively accepted as the truth about this issue that when you actually dig down are not true.
00:33:26.380I'd love for you to talk us through the key beliefs of the climate movement
00:33:32.160and also talk about where they're not actually true.
00:39:24.860among scientists around the impact we're having
00:39:27.500and the danger but the media like it's like the media has not caught up with that and so they
00:39:32.140always are selling it like the mainstream media the big outlets you can think of they're always
00:39:36.560selling it like it's an existential threat it's like they haven't caught up to the fact that
00:39:40.520there's so many scientists who say there's not a consensus on this stuff there's going to be a lot
00:39:45.840of people who are watching this show um who are thinking to themselves you know i'm young i'm in
00:39:51.160my mid-20s late 20s whatever it may be particularly young women who are enmeshed in these types of
00:39:57.280movements or social groups etc what would you say to them is the most effective way of actually
00:40:04.220deprogramming and leaving yeah and i think that's the thing too is like where i feel the most
00:40:09.360comfortable talking about everything is like what can we observe from the last 40 years the
00:40:13.860observational data because the climate scientists they have their like fancy models and they're
00:40:17.820always like going with well what if whatever what we can observe over the past 40 years is the fact
00:40:22.940that deaths from natural disasters are down 99% in the past 100 years. So when I always say,
00:40:29.660if I concede to you that climate change is happening, let's concede everything about the
00:40:33.420science. Deaths from natural disasters are down 99%, so it's not dangerous. So even if it's
00:40:39.340happening the way that everyone says it's happening, we're obviously very good at adapting
00:40:43.880as a species because we've gotten wealthier, we've gotten more technologically advanced,
00:40:48.320And so we are not dying the way that we used to from storms, floods, droughts, and all that.
00:40:53.780So I think that's a really great place to start because it doesn't require you to get into the minutiae of all this other stuff.
00:41:01.500And like this scientist said this, because I already feel like that's a losing conversation.
00:41:05.340So the deaths from natural disasters is one I always start out with.
00:41:09.120Another thing I think is really important is understanding how lopsided the coverage of this is in our media.
00:41:14.880So they always are pushing the fear and the disaster and, you know, saying things like CO2 is a pollution when CO2 is also a plant food.
00:41:25.460And so because we've increased CO2 in the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels, we've seen global greening across the globe by 5, 15 percent, even 25 percent in regions of the globe.
00:41:36.780And so I like to bring in the good news with the supposed bad news and say, hey, let's look at this logically.
00:41:44.140Like, CO2, which is the thing that we're releasing into the atmosphere when we use oil, coal, and natural gas, the plants use it for photosynthesis.
00:41:51.080We learned this in biology class, right?
00:41:53.620So, like, before you learned about climate, you learned about this.
00:41:56.960And so because we've doubled that rate of CO2 in the atmosphere, plants are better at performing CO2.
00:42:03.060They're growing—I mean, sorry, they're better at performing photosynthesis.
00:42:07.240I love the fact also that greenhouse growers will pump CO2 into their greenhouses up to 1,500 ppm, parts per million, because the plants love it, versus we're at 420 ppm right now, parts per million, and that's how you measure all this stuff.
00:42:24.800And so that's like almost three times as much CO2 as going into greenhouses to grow things like our vegetables and our houseplants and all these things.
00:42:33.180So if CO2 were really such a dangerous boogeyman, why are greenhouse growers putting it into these greenhouses?
00:42:42.120And that's the thing I think is really important.
00:42:45.000And maybe I think why my voice is important in this conversation versus someone who's like the climate scientist who's been studying this 40 years is I know the misinformation that's in the mind of the activists or just the bystander who they think that they're choking on carbon dioxide.
00:49:08.780I didn't leave it because of all the other things
00:49:10.800that were then part of my life um and again I will say I think being part of group think and you kind
00:49:17.040of um give up your critical thinking to the group it's a comfortable way to live and even when I
00:49:22.300would see in the climate movement some contradictions of how like these things were
00:49:26.360working and I go how are we going to go exactly net zero like um even when I would see those
00:49:31.060contradictions I would think oh well if I like go against the group I'm gonna have to do a lot of
00:49:37.020work on myself because it's almost like you're having to stand up against the group and think
00:49:42.140about all the incoming you're about to get because people are no longer going to be looking at you as
00:49:46.000like a friendly you're now like an op and they're going to try to take you down all this stuff and
00:49:50.060so i think that's also why it took me so many years between questioning this stuff and uh going
00:49:55.680public in 2025 and i think it's really really commendable what you did because there'll be
00:50:01.460people who'll be watching this who'll be quite judgmental and go you don't know what it's like
00:50:05.840To be in a group, that deep-seated desire all human beings have for a tribe, and then suddenly become aware that actually what you're being told isn't true, and then having to stand up and leave it.
00:50:19.740And I think a lot of people are going to experience that with a lot of the tribes that they're in.
00:50:25.120People have joined the MAGA tribe, they're going to find they're uncomfortable with certain aspects of that, with the Dems, whatever it may be.
00:50:31.300And to actually have that, how can I say, consistency of character.
00:50:35.840is really quite, you know, kudos to you, to be honest.
00:50:39.640I think more people need to reclaim their autonomy
00:50:43.460and their critical thinking and their mind
00:50:45.240because I think that with, again, the algorithms,
00:50:47.900like, we've just given up so much of our thinking
00:59:26.180And hopefully, like, my story, as an example,
00:59:29.940It helps people who are maybe going through that transition to orient towards something where they can like relate to bits of my story and then also hopefully not think I'm a right wing nut and like write me off, which does happen a little bit.
00:59:41.120I was going to ask you about that, actually, because one of the things that we've, as you well know, I imagine since you watch our show is we've always tried to find, you know, the highest value for us is balance and truth.
00:59:53.140Yeah. But nonetheless, the moment you question the progressive movement, you immediately become in a right wing or whatever, whatever in their minds.
01:00:03.260When you were kind of in that space, what do you think were some of the most effective ways of reaching someone who has that point of view without being immediately put in a in a kind of right wing box or whatever it might be?
01:00:17.240Is there something that that like we and others can do to make ourselves more palatable and to actually reach across that aisle or you're laughing, which makes me worried?
01:00:27.440I mean, I think it's going to have to come from the people who are still in it to be ready for it.
01:00:32.520Right. And again, my experience of having my son and living through COVID were two shifting experiences that I was open to it.
01:00:39.280And so I think it has to come from the person, because, again, it's like if I had the answer to that, I would be like a millionaire because that's what everyone wants to know.
01:00:46.540And I get messages a lot that are like,
01:01:37.280And she's a libertarian, sort of like small C conservative, and she wears a cross on her neck.
01:01:41.780and I had never worked with a conservative who was my peer my whole career and she was awesome
01:01:48.900and I'm like this girl's so smart she's so um confident in her perspective and she stands up
01:01:54.540for what she believes in and she was modeling to me the type of person that I would want to be
01:01:59.100and but she had conservative values but she was so kind about it and um she actually introduced
01:02:05.200me to Barry Weiss's podcast honestly and she said you should listen to this you would like her and
01:02:09.500she could pick up from talking to me that I was not as left-wing as I had once been. But in my
01:02:13.660mind, Barry was like a fascist, which is crazy because I worked at this really left-wing place.
01:02:19.880And so she was a name that would regularly get tossed onto Slack and then they would like drag
01:02:23.740her. So it's just like, that's where I was coming from, which is pretty crazy. And so when I listened
01:02:28.300to Barry's podcast back in 2021, whenever that came out, or I guess it was 2022, whenever it came
01:02:33.980out, I listened to it and I'm like, wait a minute, she's not a fascist at all. She's awesome. And
01:02:37.960then I was like, actually, this is really great conversation. This is really good content. And
01:02:41.340that was a big awakening for me because I'm like, oh, I've been labeling this woman as like this
01:02:46.020right wing nut. I'm listening to her podcast. It's normal. It's actually really good because
01:02:51.340all the content I'd been consuming when I was really on the left was so boring. It was all the
01:02:56.320same, you know, identity politics and boring stuff. And so that was a huge like shift. So again,
01:03:02.220that one interaction was enough to like totally, but I was ready for it. Sure. And I think that's
01:03:07.940a really important part of it because like when the student is ready, the teacher is magically
01:03:12.600emerging. But also I was wondering if you, and you're a parent now, of course, I'm sure you've
01:03:16.960thought about this as a parent, what can one do to help their children kind of just navigate this?
01:03:23.800I'm not saying you have to brainwash them into your worldview, but how do you like the word
01:03:28.700you use that I love inoculate? How do you inoculate your children against this craziness?
01:03:34.320Yeah, I think, um, you have to do counter-programming, right?
01:03:41.520You have to show if they come home with school, from school really upset about something and thinking America is the worst, you know, you have to say, listen, we have a complex history, but, you know, we also are responsible for X, Y, and Z, you know, and showing them the good parts of American history or also, like, showing them other countries that are so awful, like their leadership.
01:04:01.260Like, I didn't know, like, how bad Stalin and Mao were.
01:08:20.760And the quicker people can kind of come to that conclusion and help push against these really destructive narratives, I think, the better.
01:08:26.740Oh, you know, by the way, I was going to ask you one question that I forgot, and I want to ask you.
01:08:30.140When you were in the kind of climate movement, did you ever get confronted with the idea of nuclear energy and the fact that it's actually incredibly carbon neutral?