TRIGGERnometry - Ex-Israeli Prime Minister on Gaza 'Genocide', Netanyahu and The Future of Israel - Naftali Bennett

00:00:00.760 Many Israelis feel that the current leadership is divisive and polarizing.

00:00:08.880 Politically, it's an astute move because it works, but it's detrimental to the country.

00:00:14.800 Why do they hate you so much?

00:00:16.580 When you read the Hamas charter, it says very explicitly,

00:00:20.300 it's not about the nation of Palestinians versus Israel, it's about Islam versus the West. 0.61

00:00:26.760 When you say you don't believe in a Palestinian state, to a lot of people that will sound really, really awful and worrying.

00:00:34.340 They had a shot. They had a Palestinian state in every way possible, and they chose to turn it into October 7th. 0.50

00:00:43.560 So it's going to be a lot of people in the U.S. and the U.K. all over the world who are going,

00:00:48.180 why is more and more of my tax dollars being spent to support Israel?

00:00:53.780 We are the ones who are blocking this huge flood of radical Islam. 1.00

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00:01:21.880 Naftali Bennett, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:25.140 Great to be here. I like you guys.

00:01:27.580 We appreciate that. Thank you very much. It's great to have you on.

00:01:30.740 We wanted to have a very long and substantive conversation, which we will.

00:01:34.580 We booked this interview a while ago.

00:01:36.780 In the meantime, though, I have to, as you're a former prime minister of Israel, military combat veteran as well,

00:01:42.840 I have to get you to address some things that have happened over the weekend as we record this,

00:01:48.600 which is a number of European countries now have recognized the Palestinian stay,

00:01:54.600 and also the number of organizations now that have called what Israel is doing genocide in Gaza seems growing.

00:02:03.300 What is your immediate response to those two developments?

00:02:06.340 Well, obviously, it's not good developments for Israel.

00:02:10.200 I mean, we see that in many parts of the world we are being condemned,

00:02:16.900 and there's a degree of more isolation.

00:02:20.680 It's not a positive development, but I need to say and be clear.

00:02:25.000 First of all, the recognition of a Palestinian state, I believe that to a great degree it has to do with domestic politics

00:02:35.620 in the states that actually made this decision, a growing portion of Islamistic minorities that are influencing domestic politics.

00:02:48.500 I also believe that it has little implication on ground.

00:02:52.960 Nothing's going to change tomorrow after this declaration.

00:02:58.080 On ground, we are still fighting Hamas.

00:03:02.560 We're still trying to build a good country here in Israel to defend ourselves,

00:03:07.960 to allow the Palestinians to lead their own lives as much as possible in Judea and Samaria.

00:03:13.860 So it doesn't have an actual influence on ground because there isn't a Palestinian state.

00:03:19.480 A state is defined by clear borders, which don't exist, effective control, which doesn't exist, security responsibility, which doesn't exist.

00:03:31.680 So the declarations don't create a state.

00:03:35.940 Neither do they by international law.

00:03:38.380 But clearly, Israel is in a very big uphill battle.

00:03:44.760 I believe that the best thing we can do is bring a rapid end to the war. 0.98

00:03:50.640 I think we should have won this war within half a year.

00:03:54.340 It shouldn't be dragging on so long.

00:03:56.480 Bring the hostages home and open a new page for Israel. 0.99

00:04:00.000 Well, I mentioned you're a former prime minister.

00:04:03.860 Many people also believe you're a potential future prime minister of Israel.

00:04:07.520 I'm sure you'd be keen on that eventuality.

00:04:10.360 And you've been quite critical of the Netanyahu government, the way it's prosecuted this war.

00:04:14.580 Lots of questions in what you've just talked about there.

00:04:17.460 When you say this should have been won in six months, I think lots of people would agree with it.

00:04:21.740 But how would that even have been possible?

00:04:24.000 Well, I think for many reasons, primarily a degree of incompetence, this has been dragged on way too long and perhaps other considerations.

00:04:39.180 At the end of the day.

00:04:40.820 Sorry, sorry.

00:04:41.400 What do you mean other considerations?

00:04:43.780 Yeah, look, because I have a habit on international media, I don't criticize my own government too much.

00:04:51.640 And I don't want to open everything up.

00:04:55.360 But yeah, it's no secret.

00:04:57.160 I'm very critical of this government.

00:05:00.040 I think there's a lot of domestic politics that takes precedence sometimes on decision making.

00:05:11.300 And that's not a good thing.

00:05:12.700 I think there's way too many statements and words that should not have been said by ministers in this government.

00:05:20.360 And in the world, people take those words seriously.

00:05:25.260 We in Israel know that it's just politicking.

00:05:28.740 But all of this then closes on us and ties our hands in fighting a very just war.

00:05:37.260 Because all Israelis agree on the justification and the need to bring about the removal of Hamas.

00:05:47.040 There's no debate within Israel and all Israelis agree that we need to bring the hostages home long ago.

00:05:54.760 And those are the two objectives of the war.

00:05:56.540 So no one in Israel debates that.

00:05:58.480 But when people, ministers in the government come up with preposterous statements, and then we all have to go on CNN and BBC to clean up, and then the world becomes much more suspicious of Israel because of ministers in the cabinet.

00:06:18.200 This is a bad thing.

00:06:19.700 And this extremism rhetoric is not serving Israel well at all.

00:06:25.300 It's not what Israel is about.

00:06:27.140 Well, you're talking about the comments from people like Ben Gavir and Smotrich.

00:06:31.000 But what you also seem to suggest, and look, I'm not here trying to get you to criticize your government more than you particularly want to.

00:06:37.320 I just think we're interested in getting to the truth of this.

00:06:40.120 So when you say this war could have been persecuted quicker and more effectively,

00:06:44.140 it's a lot of people in the West have alluded to the idea that Prime Minister Netanyahu wants the war to keep going in order to delay various, you know, investigative activities against him, finding out what the failings of October the 7th were to prolong his time in power.

00:07:01.620 Is that what you're saying?

00:07:03.180 I don't want to get into that.

00:07:06.340 You know, we have a very good military.

00:07:10.080 We have people fighting on ground.

00:07:12.980 I want to hope that that is not the case.

00:07:15.460 And, you know, we all support the two objectives of the war.

00:07:20.020 Let's talk very, very quickly about the Smotrich comments, which you have alluded to.

00:07:26.440 You know, those are very, very serious because, as you have said to yourself, it damages Israel's reputation abroad.

00:07:34.480 But also it makes it far more challenging for the IDF, because if you have someone like Smotrich saying that they things that, you know, they could be interpreted as genocidal, then people are less going to they're less likely to want to leave Gaza City.

00:07:50.160 You know, I agree.

00:07:51.800 I think that words matter.

00:07:54.460 And I think I want to be very clear.

00:07:57.300 There is no genocidal policy of the government or of the people in Israel.

00:08:04.960 The vast majority of Israelis, you know, don't want war, but understand that war is necessary. 0.98

00:08:11.360 So we don't have another such horrific attack as we had on October 7th.

00:08:18.040 We didn't choose October 7th to happen.

00:08:21.600 And we all woke up on that horrendous morning with 1,200 Israelis. 1.00

00:08:28.320 Gradually, the news coming through and trickling through that are being massacred in our own country, which is something that was beyond imagination.

00:08:37.360 We were all surprised.

00:08:39.880 And it's such a profound way that we couldn't even grasp that it's happening as it was happening.

00:08:47.180 Even I thought it's a much smaller thing.

00:08:49.640 And as as the news trickled through, we understood what we're going through.

00:08:55.300 All Israelis agree that we need to remove Hamas. 0.93

00:08:58.520 And, you know, there's no secret that in Israel there's a heated debate.

00:09:02.740 And there is a majority of Israelis that believe that we need new leadership.

00:09:07.980 And why is that?

00:09:09.380 Why do they believe that they need new leadership?

00:09:12.360 Well, it's more complex than just the October 7th attack.

00:09:17.600 I believe that many Israelis feel that the current leadership is divisive and polarizing and uses polarization as a political vehicle to cement the political base.

00:09:36.980 Politically, it's an astute move because it works, but it's detrimental to the country.

00:09:43.760 The Jewish nation, the current state of Israel is the third instance that we have a sovereign and independent, united Commonwealth of Jews in the land of Israel.

00:09:58.960 We had one roughly 3,000 years ago.

00:10:01.860 It went on for 80 years before it divided into two kingdoms.

00:10:06.740 Then about about 500 years later, we had another Jewish state, what's called the Second Temple. 0.91

00:10:14.940 And it went on for 75, 76 years as a sovereign and united state.

00:10:22.140 We had ministries, we had taxes, men, we had taxes, we always have taxes.

00:10:26.700 But it also split and divided because of a domestic civil war.

00:10:33.140 And now it's our third instance, the Jewish state right now is in its 77th year.

00:10:40.460 The Jewish people have never passed the eighth decade threshold in our state. 1.00

00:10:45.500 And man, we're determined this time to keep our country for good.

00:10:50.040 So Israel has two challenges, the external one versus our enemies.

00:10:55.700 And, you know, get it, they want to annihilate us.

00:10:58.900 But we also need to keep Israel united.

00:11:03.720 And I think much of the reason that people are unhappy with the current leadership is they feel that on the second one,

00:11:12.020 well, clearly the leadership failed on the first one with the October 7th attack.

00:11:17.820 This should not have happened.

00:11:19.020 And the worst attack in Israel's history and in Jewish history since the Shoah, since the Holocaust.

00:11:25.700 But also the second one is very vivid.

00:11:29.840 And we in Israel have no luxury for civil strife.

00:11:35.240 To a great degree, the year preceding the October 7th attack, year 2023, was a horrible year for Israel.

00:11:44.760 Even forget about the attack.

00:11:47.380 I'm talking about the judicial form.

00:11:49.840 We were on the brink of civil war.

00:11:53.040 Our immune system got weakened and weakened, our national immune system.

00:11:58.840 Our enemies saw that we are weakened, and bam, they attacked.

00:12:03.700 I believe to a great degree that this would not have happened, or the likelihood is much lower,

00:12:10.500 if we were strong, cohesive, united from within.

00:12:14.820 Naftali, how much of this is political?

00:12:18.400 How much of this is religious?

00:12:20.000 How much of this is different factions within Judaism, simply not having different interpretations of the Holy Text,

00:12:27.800 not seeing eye to eye?

00:12:29.080 And how much of this is to do with left versus right in the traditional sense?

00:12:33.300 That's a wonderful question.

00:12:36.760 I would say that much of it, most of it, is actually artificial polarization politically,

00:12:47.020 because I've coined a term in Israel called the 70-70 rule.

00:12:52.480 And when I became prime minister, I said that 70% of Israelis agree on 70% of the issues,

00:12:59.660 and we disagree mainly on religion and state, the Palestinian conflict, and the judicial issue.

00:13:07.120 But most of life is composed by living, by taking your kids to kindergarten in the morning,

00:13:14.100 and having a good job, and economy, and transportation, and security, etc., etc.

00:13:19.340 And what's unique in Israel compared to other countries is that the polarization is not about issues so much,

00:13:30.260 because most Israelis would agree that we want a Jewish state, but we're against coercive religious laws.

00:13:38.060 Almost all Israelis agree.

00:13:39.960 We all want our Jewish identity, but we don't want laws that force us to do anything.

00:13:44.800 Even on the judicial issue, most Israelis would agree, we want a strong judicial system,

00:13:51.620 but one that allows the government to, you know, affect its policy, implement its policy.

00:13:58.860 And even on the Palestinian issue, there's a lot of agreement now that even those who believe that one day there ought to be a Palestinian state,

00:14:08.280 and most Israelis today believe that certainly in the near future, it's not in the cards.

00:14:14.680 I'm against the Palestinian state. 0.99

00:14:16.780 So the interesting part is there's no real debate on the issues, and it's very artificial, and it's about identity politics.

00:14:26.740 It's a lot about identity politics, and the irony is that identity politics, for example, in the United States,

00:14:34.700 belongs to the ultra-woke left portion, whereas here, in some cases, it's actually part of the so-called right-wing portion using identity politics.

00:14:48.220 I think it's nonsense. I believe that we should be fighting this identity politics.

00:14:55.020 It's not real. It's superficial.

00:14:57.720 But it's tough, because polarization is a potent weapon. It works.

00:15:05.260 You can stir people's feelings up very quickly.

00:15:09.280 Well, we wouldn't know anything about that here in the rest of the West, Nathalie.

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00:16:21.820 But I wanted to, you said a couple of things that I'd love for you to address for our audience,

00:16:28.500 many of whom here in the West have never actually heard an answer to these questions.

00:16:32.680 The first one, let's start with just one at a time.

00:16:36.160 You said you don't believe in the Palestinian state.

00:16:39.780 That to a lot of people who don't know much about the conflict, which is most of us here, right?

00:16:45.100 We're just, what people know, this is what I think Israelis don't understand very often,

00:16:49.640 is what people know about Israel and what's happening is the headlines they see on a bus on their way to work.

00:16:56.980 So, when you say you don't believe in a Palestinian state, to a lot of people that will sound really, really awful and worrying.

00:17:04.180 Like, why are these extremists like Naftali Bennett saying they don't want these people to have their own country?

00:17:09.260 You're absolutely right that the degree of knowledge obviously is low.

00:17:15.100 So, what I would do is, like, you know, the Google Earth, zoom out.

00:17:20.260 Let's zoom out to the region.

00:17:22.440 In the region, there's roughly 22 Arab states, a vast majority of Muslims.

00:17:30.040 We're talking about a billion Muslims.

00:17:31.780 And one tiny, democratic, small Jewish state called Israel with 10 million people.

00:17:40.840 So, we're a small island in the sense of a geopolitical island in a huge area of many, many Arab and Muslim states.

00:17:53.160 The whole depth of Israel, if you, you know, people talk about the river to the sea.

00:18:00.200 If you get, you're on the sea, the actual sea we're talking about is the Mediterranean.

00:18:04.760 You get on a car and you drive eastward.

00:18:07.360 Israel is like a long sausage, if you will. 0.99

00:18:11.380 Okay? 0.97

00:18:11.580 It's long and narrow.

00:18:13.240 So, if we were to drive from the Mediterranean eastward towards the border of the so-called potential Palestinian state,

00:18:22.840 you know how long it would take?

00:18:25.060 15 minutes.

00:18:26.460 One five.

00:18:28.880 That's when people suggest the Palestinian state, they're talking about a 15-minute ride east to west for the state of Israel.

00:18:37.880 And that clearly is untenable.

00:18:41.160 The same exercise, if you did it in America, you know, my mom and dad grew up in America.

00:18:47.900 They did a coast-to-coast ride.

00:18:50.740 It took them a few weeks.

00:18:52.720 Okay?

00:18:53.040 So, in Israel, it's 15 minutes.

00:18:56.220 The idea of having another state between the river and the sea would mean the end of Israel. 0.77

00:19:05.380 However, there are Arabs that live in this piece of land, and they are called Palestinians, and we don't want to govern them. 1.00

00:19:14.920 So, I am not suggesting a one-state solution either, where we would integrate them into Israel for the simple reason they don't want to be integrated into Israel, 0.98

00:19:26.920 and that would spell the end of a Jewish state.

00:19:29.680 So, we have a different model, and it's a work in progress, and it's called an autonomy.

00:19:37.780 Autonomy means self-governance.

00:19:40.120 They elect their own parliament, which they actually did, and they elected Hamas, by the way. 0.79

00:19:47.360 Out of 148 seats, 76 are Hamas, okay? 0.90

00:19:55.320 And the only free elections.

00:19:56.840 So, we have a problem.

00:19:58.160 Houston, we have a problem.

00:20:00.240 But they have their own elections.

00:20:03.240 They pay their own taxes.

00:20:04.480 They have their own territory.

00:20:06.080 We don't, it's called A and B, I'm not going to get into, it's called the Palestinian Authority.

00:20:11.840 They run all their own services.

00:20:14.320 We don't govern them.

00:20:15.240 We don't run them.

00:20:16.760 However, why is it less than a state?

00:20:19.540 In two aspects.

00:20:21.180 One, they cannot have an army, because when they had an army, they turned that army against us in what's called the Second Intifada,

00:20:30.480 that erupted in the year 2000, and killed 1,600 Israelis on the streets.

00:20:37.320 The second thing that differs between a full-blown state and autonomy, and the only difference is the military and full sovereignty,

00:20:49.260 which means control of the borders.

00:20:51.460 Why can't we have them control their own borders? 0.99

00:20:55.980 Because outside of the River to the Sea, the land of Israel, there are roughly 7 to 9 million descendants of Palestinian refugees from 77 years ago.

00:21:10.440 And the moment we would allow them to control the borders, they would open up the gates and allow millions of those great-grandchildren of 1948 refugees to influx. 1.00

00:21:23.960 And that would totally change the demography between the river and the sea and ultimately spell an end to Israel. 0.88

00:21:33.380 So everything but those two elements, we don't want to govern them.

00:21:37.160 I'm not talking, I'm talking about mainstream Israel.

00:21:39.340 I'm talking about 70, 80% of Israelis want that separation.

00:21:44.340 They govern themselves, we govern ourselves, they live in their areas, we live in our areas.

00:21:50.860 But they can't have an army and they can't flood us with grandchildren of 1948 refugees. 1.00

00:21:57.920 Second question, again, if I'm a working person 9 to 5, I get on the bus, I see yet another organization has said Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

00:22:08.100 And even Naftali Bennett, who doesn't support the quote-unquote extremist right-wing Benjamin Netanyahu government, moderate Naftali Bennett, even he's saying it's not a genocide.

00:22:18.900 Yet all these international organizations are condemning Israel.

00:22:22.700 How are you sitting here and denying genocide?

00:22:25.040 Well, when you actually unpack those organizations, one of them, the main one that talked about genocide, turned out to be a scam.

00:22:36.180 It had an open registration for anyone.

00:22:40.360 You could register, I believe, for $200.

00:22:43.140 So you had people, one guy would call themselves Hitler and registered and had a right to vote.

00:22:48.580 So, you know, you could register as Popeye and it turned out that most of the registrars were from Iraq, something really weird. 0.99

00:22:59.840 And then they come out with this report and the whole world quotes it.

00:23:03.640 And then quietly, after the damage has been done, oh, yeah, it's a sham.

00:23:09.960 This is actually a truth and just, you know, search it on X and you'll find it.

00:23:15.560 What I just said is true.

00:23:17.200 It's verifiable that this genocide report was total nonsense.

00:23:24.620 Then you move on.

00:23:26.840 And when you actually look at the details, so there's roughly 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza.

00:23:34.920 We're waging a war and it's a tough war because at its fundamental, it's the first time in world history, to the best of my knowledge, that a terror organization has totally integrated itself within the population.

00:23:53.920 By the way, willingly, most of the population supports Hamas, wildly supports the October 7th massacre. 0.90

00:24:02.300 Yet, you know, that doesn't give us or anyone the right to deliberately kill civilians, which we don't do.

00:24:10.180 We never deliberately kill civilians.

00:24:11.900 So here's the deal.

00:24:13.360 They turned Gaza, Hamas turned Gaza almost every home into a weapon depot or a military base. 0.59

00:24:22.980 And, you know, I served many years as a company commander in a commando unit where we did the search and destroy missions.

00:24:32.540 I'll tell you what a home like this looks like.

00:24:34.680 You come in, you've got a kitchen, a living room, parents' room, children's room, and a rocket room.

00:24:42.120 Literally a rocket room where you see you have a rocket launcher with a movable ceiling.

00:24:47.820 So if you have a rocket room in your home, your home is no longer a home.

00:24:54.580 It's a terror base.

00:24:55.760 Now multiply that by 300,000, 400,000 homes.

00:25:01.000 That's what Gaza is. 0.99

00:25:02.920 That's what we're facing.

00:25:04.460 So what do we do? 0.96

00:25:05.760 Do we just go bomb all those homes? 0.96

00:25:08.100 Probably we should have.

00:25:09.380 But we actually take further steps, even though the people who host those things in their homes did it knowingly.

00:25:16.480 So according to international law, we don't have to protect them.

00:25:20.880 Yet we do.

00:25:22.100 We send pamphlets.

00:25:24.560 We send millions, tens of millions of text messages.

00:25:28.420 And I'm not, I don't believe there's a precedent for what we do in the annals of military history.

00:25:34.340 And we tell them, evacuate this building, which has become a terror base, because in two hours we're going to bomb it.

00:25:40.420 That's how we operate.

00:25:41.960 Now, that's the reason that to this moment, the ratio between terrorists who have been killed and civilians is roughly 1 to 1.5.

00:25:54.280 There's, I believe, roughly 63,000 people who have died in Gaza, of which 10,000 are natural. 0.99

00:26:02.220 23,000 are terrorists.

00:26:05.660 So 53 minus 23 is 23 to 30.

00:26:08.620 It's a very low ratio of terrorists to civilians.

00:26:14.220 And that is exactly opposite of genocide.

00:26:18.060 Genocide is a deliberate intent to kill, to murder a population or part of a population based on its ethnicity.

00:26:29.300 There's none of this.

00:26:30.520 None of this exists.

00:26:31.760 We're in a tough war.

00:26:33.400 As I said, I believe we should have done it all more quickly, but that's an issue of competence.

00:26:40.460 But I definitely stand behind the idea of there's no genocide here.

00:26:45.980 If we wanted genocide, we could do it much more efficiently.

00:26:50.940 I would say that we would be considered very incompetent at that.

00:26:56.540 Having said all of this, every child and every civilian that dies is a tragedy.

00:27:02.800 And that tragedy is the responsibility of Hamas, who turned all of Gaza into a terror base. 0.97

00:27:10.800 And this is what I was going to ask you, because for a lot of people who are living here in Britain, in America, elsewhere, in the Anglosphere particularly, who are most of our audience,

00:27:21.940 like if you said to me, Constantine, you know, that you believe in fighting a particular cause,

00:27:26.620 why don't we put some rockets in your spare bedroom, I probably say no to that, I'm going to guess, right?

00:27:33.660 And I'm wondering, to what extent are people doing that in Gaza because they actually, they care about this and they support Hamas to that extent?

00:27:43.320 And to what extent these are actually probably somewhat innocent people who have no choice because if they say no, they're going to get killed by Hamas?

00:27:49.840 Well, first of all, that's the reason that even in the event that we find a home or we know a home has turned into a terror base,

00:27:58.620 we still notify and evacuate them, which means we're killing less terrorists that we could have.

00:28:05.120 But that's a wonderful question.

00:28:07.660 I don't have a perfect answer.

00:28:09.620 You're asking, is the population voluntarily part of this or is it being forced on them?

00:28:15.780 I can give you a couple of data points, though, that indicate, unfortunately, that it's more on the side of knowing and willing participation.

00:28:27.740 The first is the fact that October 7th, what actually happened, there were three waves of terrorists.

00:28:35.840 The first was really the commando terrorists, terrorists of Hamas called Nuchbot. 0.52

00:28:40.480 But then the second and third waves that happened within hours were just regular civilians of Gaza who saw an opportunity to go in, loot, murder, and they did it. 0.97

00:28:56.820 And this was fairly widespread.

00:28:59.440 I'm talking about thousands and thousands of these people.

00:29:02.620 Secondly, unlike the Holocaust, for example, where there were non-Jews who saved the lives, righteous Gentiles, we call them,

00:29:15.440 in every country, in Germany, in Poland, even whilst the majority of Germans and Polish people were anti-Semitic

00:29:24.700 and participated in the Shoah and the Holocaust, there was always, in every country, a fairly small minority that protected the Jews and saved lives and hid them within their homes.

00:29:38.480 In Gaza, there's not one case during October 7th or subsequently of one righteous Gentile, one Palestinian who said,

00:29:47.660 you know what, stop, don't rape the Jews, don't murder them. 0.85

00:29:51.400 The third is polls. 0.99

00:29:54.160 The polls that we saw, every poll I've seen, certainly in the early days after October 7th, showed widespread support of the October 7th massacre.

00:30:06.180 And finally, the most important poll of them all is the elections themselves.

00:30:10.500 Though this happened about 15 years ago, in the open elections, as I've suggested, the vast majority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas.

00:30:23.840 Actually, now I recall the number, out of 132 seats, 76 are Hamas.

00:30:30.860 So that's an absolute majority.

00:30:32.780 So why do they hate you so much, Naftali?

00:30:35.180 Because a lot of people, again, if I'm just watching TV, going to work, I'm thinking, well, if these people hate you this much, what have you done?

00:30:42.780 And that's where the conversation about occupation and displacement and all this other, why do they hate you so much?

00:30:49.720 That's a fair point, a fair question.

00:30:51.720 There's the broad Arab-Israeli conflict, which, if you want, we'll dive into it briefly.

00:31:00.840 But I'll start with this specific Gaza situation.

00:31:06.040 In Gaza, I believe most of your viewers don't realize this.

00:31:10.500 Israel had been in Gaza since 1967, and in year 2005, by year 2005, there were roughly 8,000 Israelis living there.

00:31:22.980 IDF was roaming around, and there was a decision of the Likud government of Sharon.

00:31:29.920 Netanyahu was his finance minister and also supported this in the Knesset votes of what we call disengagement,

00:31:36.960 which means Israel fully pulled out of all of Gaza in its entirety, forcefully expelled those 8,000 Israelis.

00:31:48.380 It was not pleasant days.

00:31:50.760 Who pulled out all the soldiers and went to the 1949 line border, meaning we gave them every single centimeter of Gaza. 0.89

00:32:02.120 And at that point, there was no blockade or any restriction because there was a thesis that this is your chance.

00:32:10.820 And we handed over the place to Mahmoud Abbas, the same Mahmoud Abbas that governs the Palestinian Authority today.

00:32:18.960 And many hoped that Gaza would choose to turn itself into Singapore of the Middle East. 0.85

00:32:25.020 It had all the conditions for it, a beautiful beach line and everything it needs, open borders, etc.

00:32:33.460 Unfortunately, within days of this disengagement, they began shooting rockets at us and conducting terror attacks at us.

00:32:44.020 And then from 2005 all the way through 23, once in a while, we had to go in, fight back.

00:32:53.540 We had to start controlling what goes into Gaza, which clearly we didn't do a good job of because they built massive terror tunnels in a whole army.

00:33:04.420 And the friction grew.

00:33:06.600 But basically what I'm saying in very simple English, they had a shot.

00:33:12.200 They had a Palestinian state in every way possible.

00:33:16.240 And they chose to turn it into October 7th and into 20 years and 18 years of hell for the Israelis that lived along the borders. 0.78

00:33:26.860 In fact, the kibbutz members that were massacred on October 7th, many of them were big supporters of that disengagement because they hoped that it would create peaceful neighbors.

00:33:42.780 Now, you're asking why?

00:33:43.780 I think radical Islam has a—the Islamistic ideology is one that is broader than a national ideology, and it's one of Sharia law, of having a Muslim empire again, like they had roughly, what, 1,400 years ago, 1,300 years ago.

00:34:10.900 My understanding, when you read the Hamas charter, it says very explicitly, it's not about the nation of Palestinians versus Israel.

00:34:22.060 It's about Islam versus the West, and Israel is just stuck there from their perspective. 0.88

00:34:28.260 So I believe there's a lot of religious factor here.

00:34:32.040 And, you know, many believed, and I also tried to proceed down the let's make their economy better and their lives better.

00:34:43.080 And Gaza was actually on a very positive trajectory.

00:34:46.340 I had been letting more Gaza workers into Israel.

00:34:52.980 Netanyahu subsequently allowed even more Gaza workers to enter Israel to get good jobs.

00:35:00.020 And I guess we all hope that this would decrease the motivation, but religious motivation turns out to be divorced from religious ideology.

00:35:13.080 You know, bin Laden was a multimillionaire.

00:35:16.180 So the notion that if you improve the livelihood of people, by definition, it'll decrease terror, it's not 100% correct in some cases.

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00:37:08.060 Now, Tali, you must be incredibly concerned that the longer this war drags on, we're talking about radicalization, the more radicalized the population of Gaza become, but also as well, the more anti-Semitism spreads across the world.

00:37:22.060 That is a very real concern for Jews living in the UK, for living in America and all over the globe, quite frankly.

00:37:29.420 It is. I'll unpack. You mentioned two things. The radicalization in Gaza, I'd actually say October 7th, as I said, happened actually when conditions in Gaza were getting much, much better.

00:37:44.320 You know, they had shopping malls there, they had theaters, they had the hotels.

00:37:49.600 Gaza was in a fairly good trajectory economically.

00:37:52.660 So I divorced the radicalization from this, but I am cognizant that when, you know, you see buildings blow up, you don't become a big friend to Israel.

00:38:05.320 To deal with that, and if you want to talk about the future of Gaza, ultimately, we don't want to go, I don't want to govern Gaza. 0.97

00:38:13.140 I don't want to occupy Gaza. 0.99

00:38:15.380 We just need our security, but we do need to ensure something we didn't do in the past, which is to stop the brain poisoning of the younger generation, both in Judea and Samaria, the PA and in Gaza. 0.88

00:38:30.180 When you are taught from age zero that the Jews are the Satan and need to be killed, lo and behold, when you're 20 years old or 17 years old, you'll go into a kibbutz and sever heads of people.

00:38:49.200 So that's in terms of Gaza. 0.99

00:38:51.380 Your broader question of anti-Semitism.

00:38:54.360 Yeah, I'll tell you something.

00:38:56.620 I spent a part of my life in the United States as a child, a few years and later on running my high-tech company.

00:39:06.540 And whenever, you know, the anti-Semitism organizations like ADL would always talk about anti-Semitism, I have to admit, I thought it was a bit inflated.

00:39:20.240 Because I hadn't, myself or my friends had not incurred, you don't walk around New Jersey or Houston or Omaha, Nebraska and feel anti-Semitism.

00:39:32.140 So, you know, it was a thing, and here and there on the fringes, it's changed.

00:39:39.180 It's changed, and I cannot believe what I'm seeing day in, day out.

00:39:46.260 And obviously, we can attribute the spread, the rapid spread to social networks, which is simply a tool that didn't exist.

00:39:57.040 Though there were other tools of disseminating false information before the Internet.

00:40:03.680 For example, roughly, I believe, 150 years ago or so, there was a pamphlet called The Protocols of Zion, which suggested that the Jews are sitting in some dark room and conniving how to control the world. 0.92

00:40:20.600 And it's spread fairly well, even without Facebook.

00:40:24.380 But now, with the social media, the latest things that every day it hits you, like mainstream people in America will suggest that Israel stands behind the murder of Charlie Kirk.

00:40:41.000 Mainstream people will suggest that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent.

00:40:45.400 In fact, when I saw this happening, you know, the Mossad reported to me.

00:40:50.220 In Israel, the Mossad and Shin Bet report directly to the prime minister, whereas the IDF reports to the entire government.

00:40:57.700 So I said, you know, I know this is not true.

00:41:00.500 I actually called up two former Mossad chiefs, just to be sure, and one former prime minister.

00:41:06.240 They all said, this is nonsense.

00:41:07.520 So I posted, I believe it was, was it Tucker Carlson or someone who was beginning to spread that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent.

00:41:16.380 I said, it's simply not.

00:41:17.560 He wasn't.

00:41:18.420 By the way, Israel doesn't conduct espionage on American soil since 1985, where we messed up with the Pollard affair.

00:41:27.980 So every day you're faced with it, and it's so crazy that you lose your breath, but we can't stand silent.

00:41:39.060 This is a huge worry.

00:41:41.140 I believe that the state of Israel, to some degree, has responsibility for the Jewish people, even if they are not our own citizens.

00:41:50.960 We need to look out for them.

00:41:53.420 And yeah, this is a huge, new, scary phenomenon.

00:41:58.080 Just last night, I saw Tucker Carlson at the Charlie Kirk funeral, and he was peddling, insinuating.

00:42:12.120 He talked about, basically, the folks who killed Jesus 2,000 years ago, and created some sort of analogy.

00:42:22.480 So he plays a very thin line.

00:42:25.280 So he said, I didn't, you know, I didn't talk about the Israelis, I didn't talk about the Jews, but you did.

00:42:30.360 You actually did.

00:42:31.440 And you meant exactly what I understood you meant, is you were sending the dog whistle.

00:42:38.080 This is really bad stuff, and we have to call it out for what it is.

00:42:42.120 And it actually reminds me of my favorite story ever.

00:42:46.040 So it was about 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem, and Jesus shows up, and he starts talking about the people in power.

00:42:55.080 And he starts doing the worst thing that you can do, which is telling the truth about people.

00:43:00.320 And they hate it.

00:43:01.540 And they just go bonkers.

00:43:02.880 They hate it.

00:43:03.560 And they become obsessed with making him stop.

00:43:05.760 This guy's got to stop talking.

00:43:07.620 We've got to shut this guy up.

00:43:09.840 And I can just sort of picture the scene in a lamp-lit room with a bunch of guys sitting around eating hummus, thinking about what do we do about this guy telling the truth about us.

00:43:19.640 We must make him stop talking.

00:43:21.540 And there's always one guy with the bright idea, and I can just hear him say, I've got an idea. 1.00

00:43:26.600 Why don't we just kill him? 0.99

00:43:28.640 That'll shut him up. 1.00

00:43:30.600 That'll fix the problem.

00:43:31.780 And I believe Israel, domestically, we need to tell a new story.

00:43:40.520 We need a new page for Israel.

00:43:42.120 That's what I hope to do if I return to lead the country, is turn a page, bring the hostages home, end the war, go out, seek peace with new partners in the Middle East,

00:43:56.360 and come back to what Israel's story should be, which is a remarkable, decent nation in very hard circumstances trying to do good.

00:44:07.360 That's what Israel's about, and that will help.

00:44:10.520 But at the same time, I don't want to mislead anyone.

00:44:17.900 The drivers of anti-Semitism are deep, sinister drives.

00:44:25.380 It goes beyond the fact that Israel has no public diplomacy and our PR is the lousiest in the world.

00:44:32.620 I get that.

00:44:33.440 We need to fix it.

00:44:34.440 It's indefensible, the fact that our current government doesn't do anything about it, and quite the contrary. 0.99

00:44:42.100 But even if we do that, and even if we don't have ministers who say stupid things every other day, 0.97

00:44:48.460 let's assume still there is a deep millennia-old phenomenon. 0.97

00:44:55.620 It started actually 3,300 years ago, the first instance of anti-Semitism when the Jews were leaving Egypt.

00:45:06.240 So the Amalekites were the first instance of anti-Semitism on a national basis.

00:45:12.580 And I can't explain it.

00:45:15.060 You know, I'm a big history buff, read gazillion history books.

00:45:19.260 I can't fully understand the rationale of anti-Semitism, because when we succeed, we're blamed for being successful.

00:45:29.160 When we're poor, we're blamed for being a burden on society.

00:45:33.520 When Jews were separatists and lived in ghettos, we were accused of being different.

00:45:40.600 And then in the 19th century, especially in Germany and Western Europe, when Jews assimilated, they were blamed for trying to corrupt society.

00:45:50.680 So it's basically whatever Jews do, we're blamed.

00:45:53.900 All I can say is I'm happy I have my own Jewish state now, where even if lies happen, at least we can defend ourselves.

00:46:02.400 Naftali, so that being the case, there is going to be a lot of people in the U.S., in the U.K., all over the world who are going, particularly the U.S., who are going, why is more and more of my tax dollars being spent to support Israel, to help Israel, to fund Israel?

00:46:22.000 And the question is, why is Israel so important to America, to the U.K., and to the West in general?

00:46:29.940 That's a very important question.

00:46:32.400 The short answer is, the Middle East is the most explosive and tumultuous region on Earth. 1.00

00:46:41.280 And the notion, let's say there wasn't an Israel.

00:46:46.260 No Israel, doesn't exist. 0.94

00:46:48.100 September 11th would still happen.

00:46:50.380 And Osama bin Laden will sit in some cave in Afghanistan, or the next Osama bin Laden, somewhere in Gaza, or in Ramallah, or in Nablus.

00:47:02.400 And will come after the West, because it's a deep-rooted ideology that says that ultimately, Islam and Sharia law should control the world.

00:47:13.120 It's the idea of an Islamic state.

00:47:16.460 It's a well-rooted.

00:47:18.720 Any territory that Islam has conquered is called Holi, or Waqf in Arabic. 0.55

00:47:26.840 So what would America then need to do, and what it actually did after September 11th?

00:47:34.220 More or less competently, one may argue, it would understand that it can't just ignore and say, okay, they're on the other side of the ocean, because here they're not.

00:47:45.080 And they come to London, and they come to Madrid, and they come to the Twin Towers and to the Pentagon.

00:47:52.300 So what you would do is you would try and set up bases in the Middle East, and then those bases would have to be defended and protected.

00:48:03.280 And then in order to protect them, you'd need sort of a host of bases all across the Middle East, talking about millions of soldiers.

00:48:10.860 And then one would perhaps suggest, you know what, what if instead of all of this, we have one big base, we don't have to send our soldiers.

00:48:20.660 The base is called Israel.

00:48:22.780 The Israelis have their own soldiers, their own military.

00:48:25.860 They will fight the wars.

00:48:27.560 They will gather the intelligence of what the terrorists are conniving and what's their next terror attack.

00:48:36.120 They're out there.

00:48:38.240 What an amazing deal.

00:48:39.760 All we have to do is support them a bit financially.

00:48:43.960 That's the best ROI I could imagine.

00:48:46.740 Now, this is not theoretical.

00:48:48.620 As prime minister, I can recall at least 30 instances in 13 months where we called up a specific European intelligence agency and said,

00:49:06.700 listen, right now, there are three terrorists on this building, 17th floor in London or in Belgium.

00:49:15.260 Go up, arrest them.

00:49:18.880 Now, why do we have all this information?

00:49:20.800 Because we are in friction with them.

00:49:22.800 We are in constant touch with them.

00:49:25.920 So, we are America and the West's aircraft carrier or base here, but we're not asking them to send soldiers.

00:49:35.920 We're not asking them to fight.

00:49:37.460 I fought.

00:49:38.260 I risked my life many times fighting radical Islam. 0.95

00:49:42.040 I lost my best friend fighting radical Islam. 0.85

00:49:45.780 My son, my oldest son right now is in the same unit I served, and I hate it.

00:49:53.280 It's horrible.

00:49:54.900 We lose sleep at night.

00:49:56.860 It's scary.

00:49:57.680 It's my son, for heaven's sake.

00:49:59.140 I want him alive.

00:50:00.600 I want him to have a great life.

00:50:02.300 But we've got to do this to defend ourselves.

00:50:04.580 And the benefit, the spillover benefit, is that you guys don't have to be here.

00:50:10.500 I mean, that is quite an argument because there are a lot of people, particularly when you look at what is happening in America with the deficit,

00:50:19.740 who are quite resentful, shall we just say, about the money that is being funneled into Israel.

00:50:26.440 And they would see this money would be better spent in America.

00:50:30.800 What would you say to that?

00:50:31.880 Look, I'm not going to tell America how to spend its money.

00:50:38.120 There could be an alternative where you don't support us.

00:50:42.640 We don't get that support.

00:50:44.020 And, you know, we'll support ourselves.

00:50:47.960 And maybe we can provide the defense as a service and charge a country.

00:50:56.140 When I call up that prime minister and say, look, on 17th floor.

00:51:00.500 But, you know, I want $50 million for this piece of information.

00:51:05.320 Would that make sense?

00:51:06.820 That's not how friends act.

00:51:08.700 We're doing the hard work of the world.

00:51:12.200 It's a thankless job.

00:51:14.200 We keep on being blamed for everything while we're the ones.

00:51:17.640 We are the ones who are blocking this huge flood of radical Islam. 1.00

00:51:25.920 And it happened before.

00:51:27.800 Islam conquered all the way to Spain, right? 1.00

00:51:31.500 All of North Africa and all the way to Andalus. 0.83

00:51:35.380 And that is still their dream.

00:51:37.560 Today, there's much more advanced technologies.

00:51:39.740 If we didn't stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, do you actually, if Israel didn't exist, do you think Iran would just keep it? 0.92

00:51:51.180 And do you think what would happen with Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Egypt and the next Bin Laden will have a nuclear bomb? 0.85

00:51:59.540 And 9-11 happened.

00:52:02.500 It happened.

00:52:03.320 I was in New York when it happened.

00:52:04.920 I was in Manhattan when it happened.

00:52:06.680 I saw the buildings on fire.

00:52:08.880 It's a real thing.

00:52:09.960 I'm like the Forrest Gump of these crazy events.

00:52:12.800 I'm always there. 0.54

00:52:13.540 And just imagine it is extremely easy if you allow the cancerous tumor of radical Islamist terrorism to grow and you don't handle it, it'll blow up on you.

00:52:32.440 And that'll be way more costly than a few billion dollars.

00:52:36.040 9-11 now in London and Madrid can totally paralyze a country.

00:52:43.540 For years, it could destroy a country.

00:52:46.480 So we're fighting.

00:52:47.540 We're stopping them.

00:52:49.200 We stopped Saddam Hussein from acquiring a nuclear weapon in 1981.

00:52:54.260 Israel did the thankless job of destroying his nuclear reactor in Osirak, near Baghdad.

00:53:01.260 Everyone condemned us.

00:53:02.520 But Saddam Hussein turned out to not have nuclear weapons thanks to Israel. 0.95

00:53:07.720 Later on, we did the same thing with Assad.

00:53:09.980 We bombed his nuclear reactor in a place called Deir Azur in 2007.

00:53:16.540 Did we get any thanks for it?

00:53:18.120 No. 0.95

00:53:18.680 But we saved the world from a crazy Assad with a bomb. 0.99

00:53:24.920 Now we did the same in Iran.

00:53:27.660 We're doing everyone's job.

00:53:29.000 Do you think these nuclear weapons coupled with radical Islam is the worst formula you can have, the worst potion you can have? 1.00

00:53:38.260 And it'll come after you, but we're doing the job.

00:53:40.740 Instead of condemning us, how about saying thanks once in a while?

00:53:45.280 Because it's my son there.

00:53:46.500 It was me there.

00:53:47.560 I was fighting them.

00:53:48.560 I was risking my life and saving your lives quite literally, tangibly, not in theory, tangibly.

00:53:56.740 Maybe, you know, maybe if I become prime minister again, every time we save lives, we'll make a big PR splash every three weeks and say we just save lives.

00:54:08.160 And not leave it at the Mossad MI5 level.

00:54:13.560 And maybe that's a better way.

00:54:16.300 Good idea that's coming up here.

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00:55:32.220 One thing that you keep repeating is you keep saying it's a thankless task, it's a thankless task.

00:55:38.660 And one of the interesting developments in your region more broadly is actually, from what I'm hearing,

00:55:44.600 quite a lot of the governments of the countries that are your neighbors or in your backyard, so to speak,

00:55:50.400 they might not be thanking you publicly, but they certainly weren't against what you did in Iran, for example,

00:55:55.680 or what Israel did in Iran.

00:55:56.820 And there seems to be a broader consensus developing in the Middle East in many countries

00:56:01.940 that actually radical Islam is bad for everybody, including the Islamic countries that have to deal with its consequences. 0.98

00:56:08.820 How hopeful are you that whenever this horrific war ends, and I think we all hope it ends soon,

00:56:15.800 that there's the possibility of something that resembles a lasting peace and a permanent rearrangement of the region,

00:56:23.600 such that actually the Palestinian cause, whatever shape it takes, does not retain its potency

00:56:30.380 as being a way of antagonizing the entire region against everybody, particularly, of course, against Israel?

00:56:36.300 I'm very optimistic, and your point is correct.

00:56:41.300 I've met most of, in fact, I believe all of, almost all of the leaders of the moderate Arab countries.

00:56:52.000 They despise radical Islam, both types of radical Islam, the Shiite sort of Iran,

00:56:58.680 and the radical Sunni type, which is the Muslim Brotherhood and its more radical forms of ISIS, etc.

00:57:09.080 They are terrified by it, and they very much want to fight it,

00:57:15.980 and they view Israel as a central pillar of fighting it.

00:57:20.580 And we're doing a lot of things together.

00:57:23.380 There is a big problem with the street in those countries, 0.98

00:57:28.980 which sometimes there is popular support for the more radical elements,

00:57:36.420 and that's what causes the friction, and also why they can't publicly talk about,

00:57:42.200 you know, supporting Israel's fight against radical Islam.

00:57:47.220 We need to win.

00:57:48.200 We need to create a very strong crescent of moderacy and of growth,

00:57:58.900 you know, from India through Emirates, Saudis, Iraq, Jordan, and to Israel, Egypt, etc.

00:58:10.480 This is a huge potential.

00:58:12.420 I'm a huge believer in this,

00:58:14.080 and I believe that once we form a new government and open a new page for Israel,

00:58:21.640 wrap up the war,

00:58:23.560 we're in for a very good story of growth and peace in the region.

00:58:31.780 You must be concerned, Naftali,

00:58:34.780 when you look at the polling and the opinions of the younger generation,

00:58:39.780 particularly those 30 and under and their opinions of Israel in the United States.

00:58:45.440 Because, I mean, to put it mildly, they're not especially favorable, shall we just say.

00:58:50.800 And you can just say, well, look, it's, you know, young people being young people,

00:58:54.260 kids being kids, blah, blah, blah.

00:58:56.040 But those kids are going to be the next political leaders.

00:58:59.200 They're going to be the next people in charge, etc., etc.

00:59:03.200 That must represent a very real concern to you and to the nation of Israel.

00:59:09.920 Incredibly worried about this.

00:59:11.760 This is a profound change in the American younger generation opinion.

00:59:20.040 During the past decade, to a great degree,

00:59:22.540 we, Israel, for many reasons, lost the Democratic side.

00:59:27.940 But we had the support of the Republican side.

00:59:31.540 That in itself is not a good development.

00:59:34.300 And now I am seeing a massive decrease of support in Israel of the younger Republicans

00:59:42.560 and the more right-wing elements of the Republican Party.

00:59:47.900 We have to reverse this.

00:59:49.860 We have to reverse it.

00:59:51.080 And there are ways to reverse it.

00:59:52.840 As I said, the main thing that we can do is bring the hostages home, win, wrap up this war,

01:00:00.480 and tell a new story.

01:00:02.480 A new, beautiful story of what I think Israel is really about.

01:00:06.700 And Israel is really about, as I said, a nation that has crazy circumstances and thrown at it.

01:00:18.580 And sometimes I feel like, you know, I'm a man of faith.

01:00:22.200 So I feel like God is experimenting on the Jewish people. 0.99

01:00:27.300 So it takes 10 million of us, puts us here, and says, okay, let's start. 0.99

01:00:32.620 Okay, you've got all these Arab states want to kill you. 1.00

01:00:36.780 Let's see how you do. 0.98

01:00:37.700 And then we win in the War of Independence, a six-day war.

01:00:40.880 And it says, you know, and let there not be water.

01:00:44.300 No water here.

01:00:45.280 So Israel has to force itself to become the world's number one producer of desalinated water.

01:00:54.580 80% of the water we drink in Israel is generated, is manufactured.

01:00:59.440 We used to have a huge water problem.

01:01:02.160 Now we don't.

01:01:03.380 And in fact, we provide Jordan with water.

01:01:05.980 Isn't that beautiful?

01:01:07.000 Did you know that?

01:01:07.800 No one knows that.

01:01:08.860 We are feeding the region, and we can do even more.

01:01:12.240 Then it says, okay, we see you did a fairly good job.

01:01:17.920 Let's throw at you a new challenge, asymmetric terror and warfare.

01:01:24.720 You're going to be the first ones who have to deal with a whole nation that has embedded terrorists into its homes.

01:01:31.860 Let's see how you deal with it.

01:01:33.060 And then you're going to be the country with the biggest number of rockets targeted at you, about 200,000 rockets and missiles.

01:01:44.040 Let's see.

01:01:44.740 You have a go.

01:01:46.160 And we keep on being.

01:01:48.020 And at the same time, hey, stay a democracy.

01:01:53.000 Stay a thriving country of high tech.

01:01:57.200 Oh, and by the way, you have 2 million Israeli Arabs that are citizens, and they—it's complicated because they belong to the broader Arab nation, yet there are citizens in your own country.

01:02:10.220 And part of the Arab nation is your enemy. 0.90

01:02:13.480 Let's see how you deal with that.

01:02:14.660 How do you deal with—not a regular minority, a minority that has a complex issue of identity. 0.79

01:02:22.180 And lo and behold, the Israeli Arabs are thriving, joining, you know, high work employment numbers, very good achievements in education.

01:02:33.260 We have Supreme Court justice who's Arab.

01:02:35.720 We have members of Knesset who are Arab.

01:02:39.380 So I'm very proud to be Israeli.

01:02:41.580 I'm very proud to sort of be this experiment of the toughest issues in the world.

01:02:46.640 The next one, by the way, is the issue of polarization, which is hitting all of the democracies.

01:02:53.100 Let's see how you deal with that.

01:02:54.620 And how do you deal with that?

01:02:55.680 We hear about protests currently happening in Israel pretty regularly against Prime Minister Netanyahu.

01:03:01.760 And by the way, you've alluded in this conversation to the possibility of you becoming prime minister before the war ends.

01:03:09.620 Is that even possible?

01:03:10.940 Everything's possible.

01:03:14.140 So how would that come about?

01:03:15.620 Look, Israel is governed by laws.

01:03:22.700 There's four years between election and election unless the elections are advanced in the Knesset.

01:03:31.320 According to schedule, the next elections are a year from now.

01:03:36.020 More likelihood, they'll be about seven to eight months from now.

01:03:40.380 And how would it come about is we'd run and win.

01:03:44.440 Well, it's certainly going to be a very interesting time.

01:03:47.960 I very much hope that the war ends way before that election, seven or eight months from now, as I'm sure. 0.91

01:03:53.080 Me too.

01:03:53.740 And speaking of the hostages, we haven't spoken about them.

01:03:57.040 How likely is it that you're going to get them back now?

01:04:00.940 Because, look, I'm not an expert, but I imagine the recognition of the Palestinian state by Western governments, you said it has no practical impact.

01:04:08.900 But the one thing that I think it would have in terms of a practical impact is it would signal to Hamas that they're winning. 0.94

01:04:15.460 Isn't that a sign that they're winning?

01:04:17.620 That's a valid point.

01:04:20.820 We're negotiating with Hamas. 0.99

01:04:23.000 In negotiation, there's basically two elements.

01:04:27.240 There's leverage, meaning who has the upper hand, who can create more pressure on the other side.

01:04:33.420 And then there's the deal, the terms of the deal.

01:04:37.340 And so I would say Hamas's leverage can go up and then ebb.

01:04:45.940 So it has ups and downs.

01:04:47.320 Because at this point in time, the pressure point is that it's mighty difficult down in Gaza.

01:04:55.660 I mean, Gaza is hell.

01:04:56.960 I'm not going to pretend it's anything but.

01:05:00.060 While, you know, so many people have been evacuated from their homes, terrible conditions, this applies some degree of pressure.

01:05:08.460 But you're right, on the international stage, if they see that Israel, by the day, is losing the international war, they might feel that time is on their side.

01:05:21.720 And that's why the latest move of the UK and France, etc., of recognizing the Palestinian state is not a good development because it would suggest to them, let's just wait it out. 0.89

01:05:36.560 So, no, I cannot say whether a deal can be achieved.

01:05:41.560 I'm not in the negotiation room.

01:05:44.020 I don't have the latest data.

01:05:48.520 I think that there are ways to create leverage and then seal a deal.

01:05:53.200 Which are what?

01:05:53.980 I'm not going to get into it because I might become prime minister and I don't want to share how I would go about it.

01:06:00.560 But basically, apply pressure, create the conditions, and then take the deal when it's possible, the right deal, not any deal.

01:06:08.560 Well, what I don't understand is, and obviously I understand your reluctance to get into the details, is what pressure Israel can apply.

01:06:15.780 Because Hamas is perfectly happy to have its civilians killed by Israel.

01:06:19.860 In fact, it seems to be its strategy. 0.93

01:06:23.140 So, going harder, bombing them harder, killing more of their leaders, none of that seems to work. 0.55

01:06:28.540 And the more people die in Gaza, the more Western nations seem to be going in a pro-Hamas direction, as we've seen in the last few days.

01:06:38.300 Yeah, so we need to be more creative about it and use other tools and dimensions.

01:06:43.940 I will say that at the start of the war, this is public, because I made it public.

01:06:49.360 I had suggested to the government, first quietly and then publicly, that we take part of Gaza and announce that that part is a war zone and the rest is an open zone. 0.87

01:07:11.080 And then apply a full siege on that particular part while screening the population that leaves. 0.79

01:07:18.980 So, you basically can collect the terrorists and you can divide the terrorists from the full population.

01:07:30.060 So, I would take a few other creative dimensions that are not happening right now.

01:07:36.140 I fairly agree with your analysis here, that more of the same will only result in more of the same results.

01:07:45.440 That makes sense.

01:07:46.800 It's great talking to you.

01:07:48.040 We have a lot of questions from our supporters that we're going to ask you on our Substack portion.

01:07:53.340 But, of course, before we do, we always end with the same question.

01:07:56.040 Before Naftali answers the final question, at the end of the interview, make sure to click the link in the description.

01:08:02.300 Go to triggerpod.co.uk to hear him answer these questions.

01:08:06.840 It is clear that Hamas cannot win this war.

01:08:09.420 That is to eliminate the state of Israel, which, of course, is their objective. 0.99

01:08:12.420 But how can they lose the war?

01:08:14.280 How can they be forced to capitulate?

01:08:16.000 Would it be better or feasible for Israel to publicly push for Arab states to take responsibility for Gaza, 0.53

01:08:36.020 as opposed to continuously losing its soldiers with little possible gain?

01:08:39.520 What's the one thing that we're not talking about that we really should be?

01:08:45.340 My vision for Israel and what Israel can be within a fairly short time frame.

01:08:54.320 And this is the new page of Israel.

01:08:56.840 Look, my vision for Israel within a few years is to form a national unity government, which is a diverse government.

01:09:08.840 It's a bipartisan government that does not exist in America, neither, I believe, in the UK, beyond World War II, where there was one,

01:09:19.220 where I would bring left and right parties together, religious and secular parties together, and unite Israel,

01:09:27.500 bring back a competent and decent government of hardworking people,

01:09:34.000 and then rebuild our strength.

01:09:38.900 We have to be very strong, no doubt about it.

01:09:41.460 But not only work through that, send out our efforts of peace to the region, to the Saudis, to Indonesia, to other locations,

01:09:55.680 bring back home and bring to Israel a massive magnet of brains. 0.59

01:10:03.340 We have a very high proportion of Nobel Prize winners here in Israel because we have amazing science and technology.

01:10:14.260 So I would bring them all back from the valley, or most of them from the valley, or from the United States. 0.97

01:10:19.560 Some of them left over the past few years and make Israel sort of a capital of high-tech,

01:10:26.800 showing the world how a beautiful country can work while progressing all our populations.

01:10:35.940 We have the ultra-Orthodox population in Israel called the Haredi population.

01:10:42.180 For some quirk of history, they are exempt from serving in the military and from working.

01:10:48.780 So stop that, bring them into the Israeli talent pool, and then begin, once we secure Israel and rebuild its economy, 0.90

01:11:01.000 then we can approach what I think Israel's real mission is, in this day and age,

01:11:07.300 to be a problem solver of some of the world's biggest problems.

01:11:11.680 Because, you know, talking about quantum technology, I'm on a board of a company in the quantum space, in AI,

01:11:19.880 but not only the technological components of it, but also the ethical components.

01:11:24.920 Meaning, what does the future spell for human beings in the era of AI?

01:11:32.160 What is our meaning?

01:11:34.920 You know, if they can do all the work for us, what do you need people for?

01:11:39.160 How do you build a younger generation that is robust and strong amid the influx of information?

01:11:50.860 So we have a mix of ancient and advanced technologies.

01:11:56.660 We have a startup in Israel, a Jewish startup, that deals with the addiction to phones. 0.93

01:12:03.200 It's called Shabbat.

01:12:05.560 It's called the Sabbath.

01:12:07.260 It was developed roughly 3,200 years ago.

01:12:11.800 It's a very weird notion that at Friday, at about 5 p.m., you turn it off, you put it aside,

01:12:19.800 and you spend 25 hours with your family.

01:12:22.920 You actually talk to your children, you listen to them.

01:12:26.940 Very unique ideas.

01:12:29.600 And so these are the sort of things I would want to grapple with, but there's a Maslow pyramid. 0.94

01:12:36.720 First, we need to win, need to bring home the hostages, secure Israel, replace the government, rebuild Israel, 0.86

01:12:43.940 fix the international standing because it's a disaster now,

01:12:48.940 and then retell the real story of what the Jewish state ought to be.

01:12:54.980 It's great talking to you.

01:12:56.220 We'll take you through to Substack with our audience who have a ton of questions.

01:13:00.280 Thanks for being here.

01:13:01.400 Follow us over where we ask Naftali Bennett your questions.

01:13:06.020 Your party, Yamina, as well as you, had a very similar rhetoric to that of Smotrich.

01:13:10.860 What are your views on Smotrich and Ben-Gavir's statements, and are you in agreement with their views?

01:13:15.040 We'll see you next time.

TRIGGERnometry - September 24, 2025

Ex-Israeli Prime Minister on Gaza 'Genocide', Netanyahu and The Future of Israel - Naftali Bennett

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