TRIGGERnometry - Exposing The British DEI Industry - Mercy Muroki

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00:00:26.800 Get tickets at murbish.com.

00:00:30.000 I think we have in the UK twice as many diversity officers per head of population than any other country.

00:00:37.680 They're more or less virtue signaling. They don't really know whether it works.

00:00:42.180 And many of them find little to no effect, basically.

00:00:45.860 Didn't achieve its intended aims.

00:00:48.000 And some of them even find that the opposite effect happens.

00:00:51.220 So there's backlash.

00:00:52.560 And the problem is those people are kind of dismissed as racist when actually their concerns are legitimate.

00:00:58.260 Somewhere along the line, we kind of lost common sense.

00:01:04.600 Mercy, good to have you back on the show.

00:01:06.400 It's been a while since we had you on.

00:01:08.100 In that time, you've been a news presenter.

00:01:10.420 You've worked for Kemi Badenoch.

00:01:12.360 You've done a bunch of different things.

00:01:13.680 And one of the things you've been writing a lot about recently is something we often talk about in an American context.

00:01:18.780 But actually, the figures came out that I think we have in the UK twice as many diversity officers per head of population than any other country.

00:01:26.780 And we don't really talk about DEI so much in the British context.

00:01:30.760 You've been there.

00:01:31.640 You've been working on this stuff.

00:01:33.220 What can you tell us about the diversity industry in the UK?

00:01:35.780 Yeah, so I've been working – thank you for having me back, by the way.

00:01:39.780 It's been a couple of years.

00:01:41.020 I've been working on diversity and inclusion stuff for Kemi Badenoch, who's the Minister for Women and Equality.

00:01:48.040 She's a very popular politician in the UK. 0.97

00:01:52.680 And she's very much sceptical about the diversity and inclusion industry as I am.

00:01:58.300 I shouldn't be, in theory, sceptical because I'm diversity bingo, you know.

00:02:05.160 I'm a woman, immigrant, ethnic minority, whatever, working class background, you name it.

00:02:10.880 That one doesn't count, but anyway.

00:02:14.160 So it's in my interest to be in favour of diversity.

00:02:18.780 It's a very lucrative industry.

00:02:20.760 People are getting paid tens and tens of thousands of pounds to be diversity and inclusion consultants.

00:02:25.700 And, in fact, I think there was some research done by an organisation called Conservative Way Forward

00:02:33.920 that found just under half a billion pounds is spent in the UK on diversity and inclusion roles within the public sector alone.

00:02:43.100 When you start talking about the private sector, you're talking about billions and billions of pounds.

00:02:47.840 In America, it's, you know, tens of billions of dollars probably being spent on this stuff.

00:02:51.820 So what I was doing with Kemi, for Kemi, was we appointed a panel, basically, to look into the data and what it says

00:03:02.720 and about whether things that the diversity and inclusion industry say are effective, like diversity training,

00:03:09.060 like unconscious bias training and all those things.

00:03:11.500 What the actual evidence says, the peer-reviewed academic research.

00:03:17.260 And just to figure out the extent of the industry, basically, and what needs to be done to actually make sure organisations are doing things properly.

00:03:25.640 So that report was published a few weeks ago now in late March.

00:03:34.180 And what it found was that, one, the diversity and inclusion industry is a very, well, let's put it this way,

00:03:42.460 organisations who are using diversity and inclusion interventions, they're more or less virtue signalling.

00:03:48.880 They don't really know whether it works, they don't evaluate what they implement to check if it's value for money,

00:03:56.200 to check if it's even had the impact.

00:03:59.300 A large proportion of organisations say they're doing diversity and inclusion in a reactive way,

00:04:06.060 so in reaction to events rather than because they have any sort of data to prove it works.

00:04:12.000 And you mentioned that LinkedIn data as well from 2020, actually, it was.

00:04:18.140 And so this was analysis by LinkedIn on sort of the roles on their platform,

00:04:23.980 which is obviously a very big platform.

00:04:26.200 And they found that the UK has twice as many diversity and inclusion roles per 10,000 employees than any other country.

00:04:35.220 And it had doubled, I think, in the five years previous.

00:04:40.080 So it's a growth industry.

00:04:41.100 Yes, and it's lucrative.

00:04:43.140 It really is.

00:04:43.980 I mean, we all know people who are, let's be honest, not the brightest people ever.

00:04:49.080 But they've made themselves a huge career as diversity and inclusion consultants selling snake oil, basically.

00:04:56.600 That's not to say that there aren't things that, you know, we all want equality, of course.

00:05:01.420 We all want people to be treated fairly, actually.

00:05:03.600 We want people to be treated fairly.

00:05:05.320 I think we had different definitions sometimes of what equality means and what it entails.

00:05:10.040 But I think fundamentally, we want people to be treated fairly.

00:05:13.800 And I think everybody, regardless of political persuasion, can agree that if there are actual barriers that are stopping certain groups,

00:05:23.080 and they're genuinely, that they're not a result of meritocracy or not a result of differences in career choice, for example, then that's fair.

00:05:31.560 That's fair.

00:05:32.300 You know, you don't have to have X percent of black people in an organization for that to be fair.

00:05:39.400 What's fair is that everybody's given the same opportunities.

00:05:43.820 But what the problem is, is that organizations are resorting to these really crude, ineffective, kind of pointless measures.

00:05:52.160 And often, actually, it ends up backfiring.

00:05:55.440 So there's been lots of academic studies done on this that found, and lots of long-term studies looking at the impact of diversity and inclusion training, especially in America.

00:06:07.340 And many of them find little to no effect, basically, didn't achieve its intended aims.

00:06:13.460 And some of them even find that the opposite effect happens.

00:06:17.320 So there's backlash against it.

00:06:18.940 And we've seen that clash as well.

00:06:20.940 But it ends up making people who already work in a place feel excluded, or certain people won't actually apply based on how a company's framing its sort of job applications and its job descriptions.

00:06:37.580 So sometimes it has the opposite effect.

00:06:39.420 And that is objectively a bad thing.

00:06:41.220 Then you're actually excluding people from applying for certain jobs.

00:06:48.020 And there has been some evidence that it also makes some people more racist as well, which is like they're tired of being told that they're racist.

00:06:55.640 And they're like, well, F these people.

00:06:58.440 Yeah.

00:06:58.600 And that's actually a phenomenon that we see in society in general.

00:07:03.680 People are fed up, generally speaking, of having various ideologies rammed down their throat.

00:07:10.000 And so what we're seeing is a backlash against that.

00:07:13.280 And often people start off with good intentions, like with immigration, which I'm sure we can touch on later.

00:07:20.160 You know, most people aren't racist.

00:07:22.880 That might come as a huge shock to some people, especially people on the left.

00:07:26.680 But the vast majority of people aren't racist.

00:07:28.760 They don't have anything against immigrants.

00:07:30.840 But then when you're having all these things about diversity and inclusion, when it looks to you like you as a native are a second class citizen because, you know, certain people are being favored ahead of you when you're being positively discriminated against, which happens increasingly so now.

00:07:49.680 Well, then you are going to start saying, hang on, I don't want these people coming here and undercutting me.

00:07:56.560 And I actually think that's quite a human response.

00:07:59.520 And the problem is those people are kind of dismissed as racist when actually their concerns are legitimate.

00:08:05.420 But, you know, obviously, that's not to say there aren't outright racist that exist in society.

00:08:12.000 But I just don't think we should dismiss people's concerns when they do have concerns about diversity and inclusion or things like immigration.

00:08:19.160 You know, we talk about these DEI officers and then I try and read what they actually do and I still don't understand it.

00:08:27.120 Yeah.

00:08:27.260 So what do these people actually do?

00:08:29.560 How do they justify a wage?

00:08:31.780 That's something I'd love to know, basically.

00:08:34.460 And I don't think it's justified, quite frankly.

00:08:36.800 I mean, I think the average figure, if I recall correctly from the Conservative Way Forward report, which is obviously, you know, from a conservative leaning organisation.

00:08:47.860 So you have to take it with a pinch of salt, I suppose.

00:08:51.860 But it was about £40,000 was the average sort of wage for a DEI person in the public sector.

00:08:58.080 I've seen some go up to £70,000.

00:09:01.460 For those students who don't live in the UK, that's more than double average wages, basically, or median salaries.

00:09:10.200 So these people are getting a heck of a lot of money.

00:09:13.560 Now, you have some doctors who don't even earn that in the UK.

00:09:16.780 So how you're justifying paying somebody just because, and often, let's be honest, you know, they're not hiring white male diversity and inclusion officers.

00:09:26.940 They're hiring people pretty much on the basis that they are diverse candidates and they tick some right boxes, not because they actually have any real sort of expertise on anything diversity related.

00:09:40.940 Yeah, I suppose if you had a DEI officer and it came out and looked and sounded like me, it might not, you know, it might sound a bit weird.

00:09:48.840 But so what do they actually do?

00:09:51.080 What are their tasks? 0.75

00:09:52.000 Is it that they then look at the workforce and go, right, you need to have more black people, more Asians?

00:09:58.020 Is that how it kind of works?

00:09:59.900 Do they give training to people?

00:10:01.740 Yeah, I mean, I wish it was that methodical because I feel like if they're looking at a workforce and saying, this is where, you know, based on the data you have, this is where we feel you have gaps.

00:10:14.400 And, you know, if they were taking a kind of scientific approach, I'd almost be in favour of that.

00:10:19.360 I'd be like, great, use the data to figure out what's going on.

00:10:22.220 But that's not what's happening.

00:10:23.520 And we know that because of surveys from businesses.

00:10:27.520 We know that from the academic literature that organisations really don't know what they're doing.

00:10:33.540 They're just kind of going along with it.

00:10:35.780 So honestly, I don't know what they do.

00:10:38.040 And I think what they do is they create work for themselves, basically.

00:10:41.580 They say you have a problem, often a problem that probably doesn't exist within that organisation.

00:10:47.700 But, for instance, you know, if you have a disparity between workers of a certain group compared to a different group, they might say, oh, well, that means necessarily that there's some discrimination at play.

00:11:01.500 So let's see how we can, you know, increase that.

00:11:05.440 But, you know, nobody, I think one in three doctors in the UK is Indian or something.

00:11:09.720 You know, nobody says, oh, that's really unfair.

00:11:12.580 What's, where are all the white doctors? 0.99

00:11:14.340 Because we know that's ridiculous. 0.97

00:11:15.960 Like, Indians disproportionately go into the medical field. 0.94

00:11:19.320 That's reflected in who ends up being a doctor.

00:11:22.320 Yet we don't seem to do it the other way around.

00:11:26.000 You know, nobody says, oh, where are all the male midwives sort of thing? 0.99

00:11:29.200 But we seem to be obsessed with sort of why, why don't you have enough black people in this, in this industry?

00:11:35.820 Why don't you have enough women? 1.00

00:11:37.140 Well, sometimes these things are just a natural kind of organic product of people's career choices.

00:11:43.060 And just the industries that lend themselves to the different genders and different cultures, like men are going to go into construction more than women.

00:11:53.320 That's perfectly reasonable and perfectly fine.

00:11:55.800 Have we got to this point where you say when men are more likely to go into construction and suddenly that becomes a contentious statement?

00:12:04.240 I don't, I think somewhere along the line, we, and I'd love to identify when it was, I'm not exactly sure.

00:12:14.380 But somewhere along the line, we kind of lost common sense.

00:12:18.540 We lost the ability to reason and we lost the ability to point out that I, this thing is a biological reality here.

00:12:25.800 I can show you, or, you know, this thing is a product of X, Y, and Z.

00:12:29.820 And we've, the scientific, I think, you know, the, the left has obviously dominated much of this stuff and the narratives and the discourses on a lot of this stuff.

00:12:41.920 And some of the, we know, fields like sociology, for example, and social sciences are very left-leaning and we know that people teaching those are very left-leaning.

00:12:53.340 And I think the scientific method, when you look at, you know, the scientific method and who's actually caring about using the scientific method to get to some kind of truth, it doesn't tend to be people working in the social sciences.

00:13:06.740 And I say that as somebody who actually took social sciences.

00:13:10.040 So I'm not surprised, and actually when you look at the political split between different fields, different academic fields, you'll find that the fields that don't require too much science tend to be very left-wing.

00:13:28.660 The people working in those fields tend to be very left-wing, where fields that do very much require science and truth, they don't have as much of a left-wing bias.

00:13:36.940 And so I think some of this stuff comes from academia, some of this stuff comes from us importing America's very many racial problems that don't apply here.

00:13:48.220 And I think we're exposing people from just not being very smart as well, because I just don't get how you can have any sort of reason and come to some of the conclusions that so many people do.

00:14:01.780 So in many of these identity politics conversations, not least the trans one.

00:14:07.700 Well, obviously, culturally, all of that makes sense.

00:14:10.760 But I'm a little bit worried that you say you don't quite know, because you're working for the minister whose job it was to deal with this stuff.

00:14:17.540 Right. And this is the question I was going to ask you anyway, because Kemi, this is no slight on her or on you.

00:14:24.420 She hasn't been in that role for the entire time the conservative government has been in charge of this country.

00:14:30.780 But there has been a conservative government in charge of this country for 14 years.

00:14:35.600 So you'd sort of hope that they would have got to the bottom of it by now.

00:14:38.800 Do you know what I mean? And maybe even start to sort it out.

00:14:41.720 So are we going to see some kind of rollback? 0.99

00:14:45.280 And I don't mean, you know, idiots like me and Francis talking about this on Trigonometry. 0.96

00:14:49.160 I mean, actually, people in government going, we can see that part of this is because the Equalities Act is the way that it is. 0.98

00:14:55.340 And part of this is because of this. And here's what the action plan is.

00:14:59.260 No offence in the six months that we have left.

00:15:01.560 Yeah.

00:15:04.280 So there were there were polls out recently that showed that the conservatives could go down to 80 seats.

00:15:13.040 One poll had 80 seats or 90.

00:15:14.900 As high as that.

00:15:15.680 Well, I mean, and in context, I mean, I can't remember how many seats they have now, but they have around an 80 seat, maybe a bit below that now majority.

00:15:24.200 You need, you know, we have the parliament of 650 seats.

00:15:28.620 So, you know, do the math. 80 seats is not great.

00:15:33.660 I don't think there's any time left, to be honest, to make the fundamental cultural changes in this area that we need to see.

00:15:42.640 There's not time massively to change legislation that needs to be changed.

00:15:48.260 And I completely agree about there has been a lot of wasted time.

00:15:53.380 And I do find some people do kind of corner me and try to blame me for all the ills of the conservatives because I have been an outspoken kind of advocate of many of their policies.

00:16:05.640 But I was 15 when they were David Cameron was elected.

00:16:10.460 So, you know, you can't blame me for everything.

00:16:12.300 I was but a child when they were elected.

00:16:15.040 But I do completely agree that they should have done a lot more on the social front.

00:16:20.060 And I think, sadly, now it will be left to labor to enact some of the things that they want to enact.

00:16:27.800 And I'm not particularly excited about what they have in mind.

00:16:33.620 Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:16:39.760 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans and Sweet Caroline.

00:16:49.020 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.

00:16:52.880 The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, now through June 7th, 2026 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:17:00.040 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:17:03.320 No, nor am I.

00:17:04.520 I guess the question would be, had Kemi had more time now left, what are some of the things that you might think about doing in order to say, look, we're all for, as you say, people being treated fairly.

00:17:17.820 In fact, it's one of the core principles of our society and a principle around which it's based.

00:17:23.520 But some of these completely unscientific, untested and where they are tested, unproven methods are being introduced at great expense, both in the public and the private sphere.

00:17:35.460 Here's what we're going to do about it.

00:17:37.820 What is that?

00:17:39.680 What would she do about it?

00:17:41.720 Well, so when it comes to some of the trans stuff and some of the positive discrimination stuff, I think changing the Equality Act would have been necessary.

00:17:52.460 And, you know, that's obviously something that's been rumbling on in the background and those conversations and that work to see what needs to be changed.

00:18:00.700 There's been various consultations and things like that.

00:18:03.200 But when you're talking about, you know, a piece of legislation, you know, Equality Act was enacted in 2010.

00:18:11.140 It brought together lots of all the different pieces of equalities legislation.

00:18:15.820 It needs primary legislation to change.

00:18:18.420 So you actually need to kind of go through the whole legislative machine to even change any part of it.

00:18:23.800 And that would have helped because what we've found is a lot of organizations in trying to sort of increase proportions of different groups, they end up positively discriminating, for example.

00:18:38.320 So and even our own Royal Air Force was recently found by an inquiry to positively discriminate against white men.

00:18:47.060 Unlike in America, positive discrimination is unlawful in this country.

00:18:50.900 So you cannot positively discriminate against anybody.

00:18:54.160 But the Equality Act has something called positive action provisions in it, which is a kind of positive discrimination light version.

00:19:02.820 But because organizations don't know what they're doing and they're getting really bad advice from various lobby groups, they end up accidentally positively discriminating.

00:19:12.600 There's also the issue of free speech.

00:19:15.240 And what needs to happen with free speech is employers don't understand their duty to actually protect freedom of belief.

00:19:26.340 And we've seen a number of cases where employers have been found to be in breach of the Equality Act by not protecting freedom of belief, which is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

00:19:41.360 And then they have to payout.

00:20:11.360 Again, employers don't really understand what protecting your employees' beliefs means.

00:20:18.060 So that could use clarifying as well.

00:20:21.160 Under the Equality Act, there's something called the public sexual equality duty.

00:20:25.480 And part of that means any public body has a duty to ensure good relations between different groups in the community, basically.

00:20:35.640 A lot of organizations, public bodies are doing the exact opposite by sort of employing diversity and inclusion and cultural spokespeople who are actually advising them things that are divisive and that aren't fostering good relations between communities.

00:20:54.340 So that could use clarifying as well.

00:20:56.340 So there's lots of stuff that could have happened that should have happened before.

00:21:01.500 But I think the political turmoil has really not helped.

00:21:04.680 I mean, we've gone through God knows how many prime ministers.

00:21:07.900 I think we're on the fourth, fifth prime minister in whatever, seven years, who knows?

00:21:11.780 And then obviously there was Brexit, there was the pandemic, you know, there was so much going on that it took up so much political time to actually change some of the problems we're facing in Britain.

00:21:26.580 And it's disappointing to say that.

00:21:30.160 Yeah, I think it's fair to say.

00:21:31.520 Yeah, that is very fair to say.

00:21:33.120 The one thing when it comes to the DEI stuff, you know, I just don't understand why they don't talk about how people who come from deprived socioeconomic backgrounds find it tougher to get into certain industries.

00:21:47.220 I think most people would actually be a little bit more sympathetic if people came forward and go, look, if you grew up in a part of Middlesbrough, you might be super talented.

00:21:58.380 But for whatever reason, if you come from a deprived socioeconomic background, you know, if you grew up with one parent family, you might not have the opportunity to go into this type of career.

00:22:09.060 And we need to open these types of careers up to these types of people because actually what we're doing is we're wasting talent.

00:22:16.140 I'm far more sympathetic to that argument than the other stuff.

00:22:20.280 Why don't these people focus on that?

00:22:23.140 I have a suspicion.

00:22:26.460 And some organisations are.

00:22:29.040 So to their credit, the BBC, they've now started having a target.

00:22:34.160 I'm not a massive fan of targets, but they do now have a target for the number of people from working class backgrounds that they want to employ, which is a step in the right direction.

00:22:43.280 I suspect the reason people don't want to talk about class is because we all know once you start talking about class, you realise that actually white working class people have it the worst for the most part.

00:22:56.320 They have it the worst when it comes to educational outcomes. 0.91

00:22:58.800 And once you're screwed in education, you're pretty much screwed everywhere else.

00:23:02.880 So when you look at how immigrants are doing, even working class immigrants, they're doing really well for themselves. 0.97

00:23:13.140 They do far better than white working class people. 0.99

00:23:17.300 So I think a lot of people on the left, they want to ignore the elephant in the room because it means admitting actually perhaps race isn't the be all and end all.

00:23:27.540 I can never say that. Be all and end all.

00:23:30.120 The be all and end all.

00:23:32.940 And then they have to start asking themselves difficult questions like, OK, well, if it's not race, what exactly is going on here?

00:23:40.360 And then you have to kind of get into cultural capital and culture and all those sorts of things.

00:23:46.420 And it's much more complicated to do that than to just say, oh, well, it's race is the problem.

00:23:52.920 You know, racism is the problem.

00:23:56.320 I think we definitely should be talking about why working class people don't do as well. 0.99

00:24:02.120 And a lot of it has to do with culture, which is the same reason I say that Caribbean young people do really badly compared in school and just on a range of measures compared to black African people and students. 0.95

00:24:20.620 Teachers aren't choosing to kind of, you know, be racist to the Caribbean kids and not racist to the African kids.

00:24:29.580 That would, of course, be ridiculous to suggest that that's what's happening.

00:24:32.980 What's happening is that Caribbean people who are often, you know, second, third, fourth generation migrants have a completely different culture to people who are new African immigrants like myself.

00:24:50.180 It's a completely different culture.

00:24:52.760 The norms are different.

00:24:54.180 You know, so we need to talk about culture and that includes white working class culture as well and how that impacts how people are not only received in society, but how they're probably discriminated against and how they underperform and how the expectations aren't very high for that group either.

00:25:17.720 You know, there's also a part of me that thinks this, which is a lot of these middle class, let's just call them progressives, wouldn't like the white working class because they're not going to agree with what they think.

00:25:33.120 You're not going to get someone from, I don't know, Grimsby banging on about white privilege.

00:25:39.960 Yeah.

00:25:40.200 Or someone from Cornwall, which hasn't had industry, put a town in it, which has had all the mines shut down, hasn't had a lot of jobs there for generations.

00:25:49.380 They're not going to be on board with this stuff.

00:25:51.740 And automatically, you're going to bring somebody into your particular industry or corporation that you're going to have fundamental disagreements with.

00:26:00.500 And as human beings, we kind of like to surround ourselves with people who agree with us, don't we?

00:26:05.320 Yeah, and there's a lot of recruiting.

00:26:08.600 So one of the causes of why traditionally workplaces have been homogenous, which is where the diversity and inclusion thing stepped in, because they said, you know, hang on a second, we need a bit of diversity in here, a bit of heterogyny, is because people recruit in their own image just naturally.

00:26:27.180 People surround themselves and people that agree with them.

00:26:29.700 You know, you know, people like to be affirmed, to have their identity affirmed by the people around them.

00:26:37.340 And so there is some of that, you know, even accent discrimination is a real thing.

00:26:42.900 People, there are polls done on this and surveys done on this, on how intelligent you perceive somebody to be based on what their accent is.

00:26:51.660 So if you are from the North, sadly, you're not seen as intelligent as somebody who has a received pronunciation accent who's from the South. 0.79

00:27:02.040 Things like that play into it as well.

00:27:04.600 And as you say, a lot of white working class people, they're not bought into all of this stuff.

00:27:09.740 They don't, they don't care about, you know, trans, you know, all this liberal stuff, essentially.

00:27:14.580 And that's why I think liberals have a condescending attitude, or let me say white metropolitan middle class liberals have a condescending attitude towards white working class people.

00:27:27.920 And they dismiss them as racist, as xenophobes, because it's easy to do that because they actually, I think, deep down see themselves as culturally inferior.

00:27:38.260 They see themselves as highbrow and they see working class, white working class culture as lowbrow.

00:27:44.340 And so I don't even think they care, to be honest.

00:27:49.060 Well, this is what I was going to ask you, because it strikes me that I think maybe one of the reasons is that they're not willing to look at how to actually help people is that's not the objective.

00:27:58.760 The objective is to go along with the narrative that you've talked about, which is, this is about racism, this is about sexism, because these are the virtuous things to currently be concerned with, rather than going, who are the people that are actually struggling in education who we can help?

00:28:17.340 Because there'll be times when you can't help people who are struggling, because they're struggling because they don't have the right culture, or they don't have the right values, or they don't have the right intelligence, or whatever.

00:28:27.140 There's all sorts of possibilities.

00:28:29.220 Well, I'm curious as well.

00:28:30.120 I think this whole idea of diversity is a broader conversation as well, because you're just talking about how well people recruit people who agree with them.

00:28:38.460 I look at us, right?

00:28:39.580 We have about 10, 12 people working for us.

00:28:42.420 And there's various range of opinions.

00:28:44.580 I don't think we have any people with blue hair and nose piercings working here.

00:28:49.460 But I do wonder to what extent the idea that you must have lots and lots of people who have completely different opinions within an organization is necessarily true.

00:28:59.700 I don't think having two people who are in here all the time telling Francis and I how we're completely wrong is the way to take what we do forward.

00:29:08.360 Do you know what I mean?

00:29:09.080 We do need people who are broadly aligned with the mission of what we're trying to create.

00:29:13.020 So even on that metric, introducing things artificially, I don't know how much that makes sense.

00:29:19.240 Now, if there was somebody who was black who wanted to come in and had those same values as us and wanted to create the same thing, but they didn't get an interview because they were black, that's a very different conversation.

00:29:29.940 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:29:30.400 Yeah, I completely see what you're saying.

00:29:33.080 And that's where one thing this report, the report that was commissioned by the Minister for Women and Equalities that was produced by the independent panel.

00:29:45.240 One thing it pointed out is that it's all about context, the context of an organization.

00:29:49.880 There's no one size fits all because it doesn't make sense.

00:29:53.520 It doesn't make, quite frankly, if there's a sandwich factory, who cares what, you know, how is how diverse the sandwich factory is going to improve any anything to do with the company's productivity or its mission or anything like that.

00:30:07.560 There are cases like public services where there will need, who are actively dealing with and making decisions that impact significantly the lives of a whole range of different sorts of people.

00:30:21.400 Where the case for having people within that organization who has different experiences, who are from different backgrounds, the case for that is obviously quite strong there.

00:30:31.080 Yeah. So this report said it's about context.

00:30:35.800 What are your, the diversity and inclusion thing should be to, in aid of improving your organization's goals.

00:30:44.460 And it should actually be productive, a productive thing, not just sort of I've plucked out some targets out of thin air and they're going to have no impact whatsoever.

00:30:54.860 Well, that's right. And one of the things I was talking to somebody the other day who made, I think, a very good point,

00:30:59.260 which is there is this myth now that diversity automatically improves performance.

00:31:04.980 And the way they've done that is basically all the really successful companies have been guilted into creating more diversity.

00:31:12.140 So then you go, do successful companies have diversity?

00:31:15.580 Yes. Therefore, diversity means you're going to have a successful company.

00:31:18.800 And I just think we have to get away from this idea that a government Mandarin is going to come in, look at a private business and know how to improve it. 0.98

00:31:25.720 These people haven't built anything in their lives.

00:31:27.240 Yeah. Yeah. I, I do. I couldn't agree more, to be honest.

00:31:31.860 And I think, again, this report wasn't saying that government should come in and do anything.

00:31:38.100 And actually it was saying the quite opposite is businesses should be empowering themselves to figure out what's best for me.

00:31:44.480 And actually, they should just have the facts and the data and they should be abiding by their legal obligations at the very, very minimum.

00:31:52.180 But there's also a risk, I think, of just completely as much, you know, obviously people who are advocate for this diversity, diversity and inclusion stuff, they think it has been ignored.

00:32:05.000 The diversity and inclusion thing has been ignored for a long time, but there's a massive risk of also overdoing it.

00:32:10.660 And that's where I think we are at the moment.

00:32:13.280 And I think if you arm organizations with the tools to and the knowledge of what exactly are you trying to achieve, how can you figure out what your company needs?

00:32:25.920 Then that's a good thing. And actually just give people who run organizations, you know, cut them some slack and say, it's OK to not, you know, want to have X number of people, these random quotas.

00:32:42.400 It's OK not to do that. And you can justify why you don't want to do that when you actually think properly about what your organization is trying to achieve and what role diversity and inclusion would have in that.

00:32:55.000 So, yeah, I think some it's morally, to some extent, the moral case for diversity and inclusion insofar as it is saying we don't want discrimination.

00:33:08.060 This is what I was going to say to you, right. Do you think this is we have to abandon the framework entirely and go, we don't care about diversity.

00:33:14.840 We care about making sure there's no discrimination. If there's no discrimination, the outcome is the outcome.

00:33:20.060 We don't care whether that's all black or white, not white, not black, whatever. 0.58

00:33:25.400 Like as long as people were treated fairly when they were recruited and during their employment, then the outcome is what the outcome is.

00:33:32.840 Well, see, I would agree with that, but with one caveat, which is that I do think there's some legitimacy in the argument that we, there are forms of discrimination that actually are very subtle, but matter.

00:33:47.620 Now, I'm not talking about microaggressions or things like that, which are clearly just ridiculous and just, you know, only narcissists talk about that stuff.

00:33:56.420 But, you know, I think it does kind of matter if somebody comes, has a working, an accent that's associated with working class, you know, working class communities.

00:34:08.520 It does matter that that person is not going to get a job, even if they have the exact same qualifications or even better, just because they don't present themselves in a particular way.

00:34:18.580 So, I think, in a sense, there is a role to support those people and try and give them the social and cultural capital that they need in order to thrive in the workplace.

00:34:32.060 Give them a better accent.

00:34:37.260 Not quite that.

00:34:41.020 What I'm saying.

00:34:41.880 For those of you listening, the face she just pulled was incredible.

00:34:44.880 Yeah.

00:34:45.340 Sorry, I had to do that.

00:34:46.800 I've been caught out.

00:34:48.660 I think there's a role to empower people to recognise that actually all of us discriminate.

00:34:55.800 All of us say, you know, probably won't hire that person because of X, Y.

00:34:59.720 Well, not all of us because not all of us run companies, but we all have it in us to, you know, discriminate subtly based on different social and cultural cues that somebody's giving.

00:35:10.860 Frances, sorry, I know I've hooked the mic for a long time.

00:35:12.720 I really disagree with this.

00:35:13.880 It's like there's not been a single person that we've hired where we've given a share about anything other than their potential performance.

00:35:20.180 But that's not always the case.

00:35:22.060 I understood.

00:35:22.640 Do you agree that that shouldn't ever be the case?

00:35:25.460 Agree.

00:35:25.740 Yeah.

00:35:26.300 And I think that's where I'm saying where it becomes evident that actually some people aren't getting jobs, not because they're not perfectly qualified, but for other subtler reasons.

00:35:39.660 Totally agree.

00:35:40.100 We should do something about that.

00:35:41.900 I don't know what that looks like necessarily, but I think it's about, first of all, exposing those people to different environments when they're younger.

00:35:51.620 So some people genuinely grew up in households where their parents didn't work and they've been on benefits all their lives.

00:35:57.700 They don't know how to fill out a job application.

00:35:59.740 They don't know what to say in an interview.

00:36:01.560 They don't even know how to greet somebody necessarily.

00:36:06.260 And those things kind of matter.

00:36:07.740 Those soft skills matter because, you know, it's a rough old world out there in the employment, in the workplace.

00:36:15.520 And getting a job, even if you're really qualified, is increasingly difficult because everybody is qualified these days.

00:36:22.740 And so we should help people have the soft skills to actually navigate the world.

00:36:29.180 And I think those sorts of things do matter.

00:36:31.800 So I'm not dismissing every aspect of diversity and inclusion altogether, but I'm saying let's actually base it on some facts rather than random stuff plucked out of dinner.

00:36:46.240 You know, I left teaching in 2020, so four years ago now.

00:36:51.920 And looking at the corporate workplace, when we interact with people who send official emails, it seems like every corporation now has pronouns in the bio.

00:37:04.400 And I think to myself, what is going on?

00:37:07.840 And actually, what happens if you refuse to adhere to that particular ideology?

00:37:12.500 Well, I have always said that if I'm ever asked to, because I know some, my auntie works in education.

00:37:22.020 She's a professor in Canada, I mean, and she teaches education.

00:37:27.060 So you can only imagine the kinds of stuff she has to put up with, basically. 1.00

00:37:33.620 And she says when they have their meetings, they have to introduce themselves as, hi, I'm so-and-so and my pronouns are X.

00:37:40.460 And I've always said, if ever I'm in a situation where I'm expected to do that, I am not doing that at all.

00:37:49.820 I am absolutely never being put in a situation where I feel, well, you can put me in that situation if you want, but I'm going to refuse to say my pronouns are she, her.

00:38:00.440 Now, some people might say, why?

00:38:01.760 What's the harm?

00:38:02.520 It's, you know, it's only like, you know, making other people in the room feel comfortable.

00:38:08.020 What harm does it do to you?

00:38:09.600 Well, actually, the harm is you're compelling me to, one, pretend I subscribe to an ideology I don't subscribe to.

00:38:17.600 And secondly, you're compelling me to say something I don't want to.

00:38:21.240 And so that's the harm.

00:38:22.240 And that's a pretty big harm, if you ask me.

00:38:25.660 So I think, however, I will kind of be at it with this, which is, although I'm a black woman, I do have a lot of privilege.

00:38:35.820 Um, so I have the privilege of, I'm a relatively middle-class woman, even though I came from a class background.

00:38:44.360 I have social and cultural capital.

00:38:47.760 And so even if I was cancelled, I think I'd still be sensible enough to find an okay job.

00:38:54.140 You know, I won't ever be in a position where I've been sacked from my job and I've lost, I mean, God, let's hope I'm not.

00:39:00.760 But, uh, where I've lost my entire livelihood because I'm, I think I'm a sensible person and I think I'm reasonable.

00:39:07.620 Um, whereas there are people who genuinely, if they don't say that in a meeting and they get sacked from, you know, wherever they work, that is incredibly damaging for them.

00:39:19.160 And that person ends up homeless, potentially, if they lose that job, they're living, you know, paycheck to paycheck.

00:39:25.280 And so people feel compelled to go along with all this stuff.

00:39:29.380 And nobody wants to, um, stick their head above the parapet anymore.

00:39:34.300 That's the, that's the real shame of the world we've created.

00:39:37.520 That nobody feels that they can truly stand up for what they believe in.

00:39:42.700 And nobody feels that they can challenge the things that they don't believe in.

00:39:46.200 And if that's not a slippery slope to a hellish world, then I really don't know what is.

00:39:52.820 So I would encourage everybody to actually, if you don't want to say something, don't say it.

00:40:00.800 Don't, don't be compelled to say something you don't want to say or to believe, pretend you believe in something you don't believe.

00:40:07.220 Because it might start with a pronoun here and there, but it won't end with that.

00:40:12.720 I can guarantee you that.

00:40:13.940 And I don't want to live in a world where, you know, people, um, which are, you know, you've spoken a lot about this,

00:40:20.260 where that kind of thing leads up to with authoritarianism.

00:40:23.180 I don't want to live in that world at all.

00:40:25.000 Yeah, look, I quite agree with you.

00:40:26.540 I mean, there's going to be a lot of people watching and listening to this, Mercy goes,

00:40:30.160 look, maybe they're not going to fire me.

00:40:33.740 Because then we can talk about credit constructive dismissal, et cetera, et cetera.

00:40:38.840 But I could be denied opportunities in order to progress.

00:40:43.020 And how do you really prove that?

00:40:46.060 So there's going to be a lot of people go, look, I'm just going to have to toe the line with this nonsense

00:40:50.280 because I don't want to limit or hinder my progress in my career.

00:40:55.400 Yep. And I think that's probably the more realistic, um, situation people face because often their managers will probably be of that,

00:41:04.020 you know, the people who make decisions about whether they get promoted will probably be of that persuasion.

00:41:08.880 So they don't want to, um, toe the line.

00:41:11.200 And I think to those people, I would say, well, you have to make the decision, um,

00:41:15.020 then whether you're going to be a coward or you're not going to be a coward.

00:41:17.800 And if you, unfortunately, those are the only two options, um, we cannot sugarcoat it. 0.99

00:41:23.280 Either you're a coward or you're not. 0.98

00:41:25.200 So if you choose to be a coward, then you have to live constantly with that decision. 0.95

00:41:32.020 If you can look yourself in the mirror while pretending to live a life, you know, it's not true.

00:41:36.760 Then that's a decision for yourself to make.

00:41:39.320 But I know I couldn't do that.

00:41:41.440 I couldn't look myself in the mirror knowing I'm going to work every day or wherever I'm going,

00:41:47.160 pretending I subscribe to some ideology or pretending I believe in things I don't.

00:41:53.760 I personally couldn't look myself in the mirror.

00:41:56.940 And so my choice is to live with the consequences of that.

00:42:00.980 Inevitably, the consequences might be negative sometimes, but it's a choice I think people have to make for themselves.

00:42:09.280 I, in a way, I agree.

00:42:12.100 In a way, what do you do if you work in a very liberal industry like the arts or like publishing,

00:42:19.360 where even when you go to a coffee shop now, your cup is a rainbow cup?

00:42:24.380 Everything is rainbow coloured. 0.99

00:42:27.940 I mean, even your cup's gay, right? 0.98

00:42:31.000 To the point, so I guess what these people would say. 0.73

00:42:34.460 Do you think there's a reason people think we're right wing mates?

00:42:38.080 Probably. 0.99

00:42:38.560 Even my cup is gay. 0.98

00:42:41.160 And there's nothing wrong with being a gay cup, but just, it's just all the cups. 0.98

00:42:45.520 Anyway, that being the case. 0.94

00:42:47.560 I'm sorry about your traumatic experience at Starbucks, mate.

00:42:50.580 Yeah.

00:42:50.860 Or wherever it was.

00:42:51.580 This is how I know I'm middle-aged.

00:42:53.160 Anyway, if you were in the art site publishing, there are people who are going to say,

00:42:58.240 look, I worked 20 years in order to get to this level.

00:43:01.340 And if I don't adopt this ideology or I don't say the things or the incantations they want

00:43:07.860 me to say, that's my career over.

00:43:10.020 On that subject of publishing, just an anecdote on this.

00:43:12.960 I don't know if you've read my book, but when I was doing the audio recording of my book,

00:43:17.580 I had the audio engineer who came in.

00:43:21.120 I did it over two days.

00:43:22.480 And then after the first day, they told me the same audio engineer wouldn't be coming

00:43:28.240 back because he's unwell.

00:43:31.880 And I turned up to record the second part of the book with a different audio engineer,

00:43:35.980 with a different sound guy.

00:43:36.840 And when I went to the toilet, I bumped into the first one.

00:43:40.100 He literally asked not to do my book.

00:43:43.400 Wow.

00:43:43.920 That's, and that's a lot of industries now.

00:43:46.160 So if you're working in that kind of industry, I think Francis really has a point.

00:43:49.320 I mean, I know you said it's illegal to discriminate against people positively in this way or for

00:43:54.360 gender critical beliefs or whatever.

00:43:56.360 But a lot of people, as you said yourself, sometimes discrimination is so hard to see and

00:44:00.980 so hard to prove.

00:44:02.100 Yes.

00:44:02.580 So by the way, I totally agree with you, but I'm just, I think we're playing

00:44:06.820 devil's advocate to this idea, which is for a lot of people, they're not going to necessarily

00:44:10.340 start a podcast or whatever.

00:44:12.500 It's the career they had and that's it.

00:44:14.680 Yeah.

00:44:14.980 And do you know what?

00:44:16.280 I kind of respect that man, you know, because actually that's what you would hope somebody

00:44:22.440 does who doesn't agree. 0.88

00:44:24.840 Because if it was the other way around and if, I mean, it is a bit ridiculous, you're

00:44:29.000 there to record somebody, you know, reading an audio book.

00:44:32.700 Well, my book is not exactly the National Socialist Manifesto, right?

00:44:36.000 I'm sure, I'm sure that's the case, but I think.

00:44:39.060 That sounds completely like an incredulity.

00:44:41.840 I'm sure that's the case.

00:44:42.700 Yeah.

00:44:43.560 As she moves away.

00:44:44.880 I'm giving a politician's answer.

00:44:47.700 I think he made a decision.

00:44:49.720 He said, I really don't want to be here.

00:44:51.300 I feel like I'm complicit in something that I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm just not going

00:44:54.680 to do it. 0.90

00:44:55.520 Now, he was a bit of a coward by saying he was ill. 0.89

00:44:57.920 It clearly wasn't. 0.81

00:44:59.460 But in a way, I kind of, I'm like, fair enough.

00:45:04.600 Okay.

00:45:04.960 Let me give you a counter example.

00:45:06.080 What if one of these guys who's recording this goes, you know what?

00:45:08.340 I really don't like Mercy's opinions.

00:45:09.900 I'm not recording it today.

00:45:11.540 But that's their choice in that they've lost work.

00:45:15.620 And so that's a decision they've made.

00:45:17.840 And now it's different if somebody else is making you lose your job.

00:45:21.620 I think that's the difference.

00:45:23.340 Because if you're somebody who's choosing, you know what?

00:45:26.080 I don't agree with this.

00:45:27.520 I'm going to take the L, as it were, as the kids say, and just, you know, sacrifice whatever

00:45:33.900 this is.

00:45:34.720 And that's my choice.

00:45:36.100 But where it's more sinister and where it's actually problematic is when somebody else

00:45:41.300 is saying, I don't agree with this person, so I'm going to get them sacked.

00:45:46.220 Now, that's, I think, where the real problem lies.

00:45:49.620 You know, I'll be honest with you, Mercy.

00:45:51.400 I disagree with you.

00:45:52.500 I'll give you an example.

00:45:54.300 Everybody knows my mother's from Venezuela, blah, blah, blah. 0.75

00:45:57.200 Corbyn was a supporter of the regime, a regime which saw members of my family locked up.

00:46:02.380 But members of my family, as well, suffered horrendous crimes, which they're never going

00:46:07.240 to get justice for.

00:46:09.020 And when people, when the comedy club that I worked in, when people came in to do a set,

00:46:13.540 if they were avowedly left-wing or Corbynites, I got them banned.

00:46:18.020 No, I didn't.

00:46:18.520 I didn't get them banned.

00:46:20.080 But no. 1.00

00:46:20.560 You killed them. 1.00

00:46:20.960 I killed them. 1.00

00:46:21.720 But no, I was just like, look, my opinions are my opinions. 0.98

00:46:26.160 I may think this, these people are entitled to think this way, because last time I checked,

00:46:32.380 and in probably a couple of years it will not be the case, but we live in a liberal Western

00:46:37.020 democracy.

00:46:39.120 When did it become acceptable to not say live and let live?

00:46:44.520 Do you see what I mean?

00:46:45.820 Yeah, but I think if somebody's cancelling you because you're at a comedy club and they

00:46:51.920 don't agree with what, and to be honest, they shouldn't be going to a comedy club if they

00:46:55.900 get offended with the things comedians say, because that's kind of the point of that.

00:47:03.440 Then that's a problem.

00:47:04.460 But I think people should be entitled.

00:47:06.300 Part of living in a liberal democracy is also that you can choose not to turn up somewhere.

00:47:10.800 You can choose to say, I'm not going to go to this place.

00:47:13.200 I don't like it.

00:47:13.920 I wouldn't necessarily go to... 0.99

00:47:15.480 I wouldn't necessarily go to a trans bar where people were shaking penises in my face or 0.97

00:47:24.440 something, you know, and I can choose not to give that place my service. 0.93

00:47:28.380 That place can exist as long as, you know, leaving my kids alone, but feel free to do

00:47:34.120 your thing.

00:47:34.460 But with my book, the example we're talking about is I've come into a bar and they've

00:47:39.940 refused to serve me because of what I'm saying.

00:47:43.420 Well, that's very different, and that is actually illegal.

00:47:47.560 Right, like the barman is in effect that said, I'm not serving this guy, get someone else.

00:47:51.880 Yeah.

00:47:52.100 Right?

00:47:52.480 Yeah.

00:47:52.640 You see what I mean?

00:47:53.520 Yeah.

00:47:54.140 But anyway, I think we've deviated from France's original question, which is, what do you say

00:47:58.800 to people who are working in an industry where people are that sensitive about anyone having

00:48:02.960 a different opinion, and you're saying to them, don't be a coward, and then like, I've

00:48:06.720 got three kids to feed? 0.66

00:48:08.840 Well, or for instance, I'm an actor.

00:48:11.980 I've been an actor for 25 years.

00:48:14.160 I'm very successful as an actor.

00:48:15.840 I know the moment I step out, I'm not going to get any roles.

00:48:19.140 It's done.

00:48:20.100 What do I do?

00:48:21.400 Well, I don't think, at that point, there's, one person can't do anything.

00:48:26.540 I mean, we know people who, they respectively had to give up their career in the arts because

00:48:32.440 they were in an industry where people around them didn't agree with them.

00:48:38.300 But one person, that one person speaking out won't necessarily make a difference, but that's

00:48:45.180 where it's about a collective, not everybody.

00:48:49.200 It might surprise people to learn this, but there are huge amounts of people who are silent

00:48:53.920 about this stuff, but who do agree with, you know, what we're talking about and our position.

00:48:58.940 There are loads of people, and they're too afraid to speak out about it.

00:49:03.760 And I think we have actually, you know, people in our intellectual sphere, so to speak, have

00:49:09.240 started, you know, a bit of a wave.

00:49:11.120 And they are getting recognition, and they are seen as valid contributors to the intellectual

00:49:16.860 space.

00:49:19.500 And it's kind of up to everybody collectively who has stuck their head above the parapet

00:49:24.600 to give other people the confidence to do that.

00:49:28.820 And, for example, if you look at somebody like Joe Rogan, I mean, recently, Spotify released

00:49:35.100 their figures for, I mean, he's light years ahead of even the second most listened to.

00:49:41.120 podcast, let alone everybody else.

00:49:43.820 Joe Rogan has been painted as this far-right, anti-vaxxer, sort of toxic masculinity, you

00:49:53.980 know, everything under the sun, everything they've thrown at him.

00:49:57.260 In their world, the people who were criticizing Joe Rogan for actually existed, Joe Rogan would

00:50:03.300 not be the most listened to man on the planet.

00:50:05.820 What that tells us is that there are so many people who actually do disagree with the sort

00:50:13.180 of people who turn up and, you know, want to cancel people because they disagree with

00:50:17.200 them.

00:50:17.580 And actually, I think those people are in the majority.

00:50:20.080 I really, really do think those people are in the majority because not, I refuse to believe

00:50:27.420 the majority of people have been captured by this ideology.

00:50:30.360 And so I think it's really incumbent upon those people who, you know, do want to stick

00:50:37.900 their head above the parapet to do that because people will follow.

00:50:41.820 I think, and I think we are already seeing that.

00:50:44.060 I think we're already seeing lots of ordinary people feel more confident about saying their

00:50:49.460 views, gender critical views, for example, or speaking out against things they disagree with.

00:50:55.260 I think we're seeing a bit of a shift in that respect.

00:50:57.960 And so all I would do is encourage people to be braver and to not be cowards.

00:51:05.180 And that's how we, I think, change the culture.

00:51:08.260 That's a good message to end on, Mercy.

00:51:10.200 We're going to go to locals where we ask you questions from our supporters that they've

00:51:13.520 already submitted.

00:51:14.520 But before we do, we always end with the same question.

00:51:16.820 What's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be?

00:51:20.500 Before Mercy answers the final question, make sure that at the end of the interview, you

00:51:26.000 click the link in the description and head on over to our locals to see this.

00:51:30.760 Don't underestimate what's going to happen when Labour come into power.

00:51:34.160 Now that you've left GB News, how do you feel about it?

00:51:37.000 Do you miss it?

00:51:37.700 Would you go back?

00:51:38.740 What, if anything, do you think they need to do to increase viewership?

00:51:42.460 So I wouldn't go back to GB News.

00:51:45.700 Well, I think the one thing is the declining birth rates.

00:51:51.940 We're not taking that seriously.

00:51:54.680 Declining, well, there's issues with fertility as well, which is a separate issue.

00:51:58.940 But women aren't having enough babies. 1.00

00:52:02.280 And of course, the liberals, the climate catastrophizers will tell us, that's fantastic.

00:52:09.700 You know, there's too many people on the planet.

00:52:11.640 OK, well, let's see how you feel about having an economy that collapses in about 40 years

00:52:22.540 because, you know, 50, 60 percent of people aren't working and they're claiming pensions

00:52:28.860 and they need health care and there's nobody to actually, you know, maintain the economy.

00:52:33.620 I think it's a tragedy, in my opinion, that women, I think the average age of having a 1.00

00:52:42.720 child now has gone above 30 for the first time ever in history.

00:52:47.840 Lots of women want to have children and they say they want to have children, but for a wide 0.99

00:52:54.180 range of reasons, which I'm sure you've discussed on your podcast with people more knowledgeable

00:52:58.800 than me on it, they just don't feel that they can.

00:53:03.920 And I think it's a problem that's going to hit us humongously in a couple of decades.

00:53:12.520 And I saw figures recently that I think it was by 2035 or something like that.

00:53:17.780 Don't quote me on that.

00:53:18.600 Ninety-one percent of population growth will be immigration because so many few women will 1.00

00:53:26.240 be having children that the country cannot, it would literally not be self-sustaining,

00:53:31.320 cannot self-sustain itself.

00:53:32.940 And I think that's very much true of many Western countries because women aren't having 1.00

00:53:39.400 enough babies.

00:53:40.520 And apparently that's a great thing, but it's very much not.

00:53:45.940 There you go.

00:53:46.660 Maybe men having babies is a good idea. 1.00

00:53:48.380 Yeah.

00:53:49.080 We've got a supplement.

00:53:49.940 We've gone full circle.

00:53:50.880 Supplement the birth rate.

00:53:52.460 Mercy, so great to have you back on the show.

00:53:54.760 Join us over on Locals where we continue the conversation with your questions.

00:53:59.880 There has been a lot of talk recently of the tide turning against the DEI industry.

00:54:04.380 Are the activists really in retreat or are they just biding their time waiting for a Labour

00:54:08.740 government?

00:54:18.380 Remember thevenant on the territory of theouldering community and want to turn eight days? 0.99

00:54:28.600 Stay here.

00:54:29.420 Hi.

00:54:29.660 Happen woman- 1.00

00:54:30.680 I can see my next day.

00:54:31.960 Grab you.

00:54:32.700 All of your footsteps.

00:54:33.520 Wait a sec.

00:54:34.400 This one and it's really up again.

00:54:35.680 There because they have been in the direction of the earth to become a part of all the truth.

TRIGGERnometry - April 28, 2024

Exposing The British DEI Industry - Mercy Muroki

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