TRIGGERnometry - Female-Only App Creator SUED - Sall Grover

00:00:00.700 Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:00:06.520 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love,

00:00:11.780 including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

00:00:15.780 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:00:22.660 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:00:27.120 Get tickets at Mirvish.com.

00:00:30.000 Why don't we create an app for women, basically so that women could have this women-only support network? 1.00

00:00:37.460 And cut to three and a half years later, I'm being taken to Australian Federal Court by a man who claims to be a woman.

00:00:43.860 The moment that you say that I have to think you're a woman and come into a woman's space, you've made it my business and I'm not going to accept it. 1.00

00:00:50.240 But I was like, no.

00:00:52.440 You want a day in court?

00:00:54.080 Okay.

00:00:55.040 There's a huge chance that this case will go to the high court, so I have to raise a million dollars to fight for the right to say,

00:01:00.000 a man is not a woman. 0.94

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00:02:25.260 Our guest today is an Australian founder of Women's Only App, which has proven extraordinarily controversial.

00:02:31.360 It's called Giggle.

00:02:32.200 She's called Sal Grover.

00:02:33.240 Sal, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:34.960 Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:36.740 It's been a while in the making.

00:02:38.600 So happy to have you on the show.

00:02:40.580 Before we get into it, Sal, tell everybody a little bit about who are you,

00:02:43.960 how are you, where you are,

00:02:44.880 what has been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:02:47.980 Okay, so basically I, you know, spent a lot of time at university.

00:02:51.920 I did a bachelor and almost two master's degrees.

00:02:54.460 I left just shy of finishing a master's degree in philosophy.

00:02:57.960 And then I went to Hollywood of all places where, you know, academia is just so respected,

00:03:02.440 but I wanted to rise.

00:03:03.940 And I got into the industry relatively easily and quickly in hindsight.

00:03:09.040 Once I was in the industry working in it, it became a nightmare that I was just so unprepared for.

00:03:16.420 It was everything that the Me Too movement became about.

00:03:21.620 So I, in about, it was 2018, I came home.

00:03:25.940 It was only going to be for a holiday.

00:03:27.980 I was in therapy just trying to recover from everything that had happened.

00:03:31.700 My therapist said, you should have a strong female support network in your life. 1.00

00:03:35.800 And that was just such a life-changing moment.

00:03:38.180 And it just resonated with me so much.

00:03:39.940 And my mom and I were speaking a lot about what I'd been through and what I was learning in therapy.

00:03:44.760 And it was my mom who said, why don't we create an app for women? 1.00

00:03:47.960 So that, you know, basically so that women could have like this women-only support network in the 1.00

00:03:51.620 palm of their hand.

00:03:53.380 And initially it was going to just be a roommate app, but we developed the idea.

00:03:57.060 We were like, oh, it can be for like roommates and freelance work and emotional support,

00:04:01.100 just having a voice and lesbian dating and finding friends,

00:04:04.360 just anything that a woman might need to do, like on a little corner of the internet. 0.99

00:04:09.620 Before we launched it, trans activists discovered us and infiltrated the App Store and Google Play

00:04:16.380 with one-star reviews, called us transphobic, got blacklisted from everything.

00:04:21.540 I had never heard the word TERF before.

00:04:23.920 I had no idea what was actually going on.

00:04:27.420 And cut to three and a half years later, I'm being taken to Australian Federal Court by a man

00:04:32.240 who claims to be a woman.

00:04:33.560 And the Australian Human Rights Commission has intervened in the case on his side.

00:04:39.220 And I have to raise the Federal Court $500,000, but there's a huge chance that this case will go to

00:04:45.280 the high court.

00:04:45.880 So I have to raise a million dollars to fight for the right to say a man is not a woman. 0.79

00:04:49.340 And that's basically where we are.

00:04:51.400 Wow.

00:04:52.320 There's obviously a lot to unpack there, Sal.

00:04:54.640 So let's just go back to the moment where you decide to develop this app.

00:05:01.180 It got targeted, you mentioned, before being released even.

00:05:05.520 How did that happen?

00:05:06.920 So we were on the App Store and Google Play just doing some beta testing,

00:05:10.440 you know, just before we would pet plan to, you know, launch it wide.

00:05:13.860 And there was a handful of women around the world, mainly like friends or friends of friends, 0.64

00:05:18.100 for you about it.

00:05:19.360 And we were just ironing out any little bugs, testing all the features and our security and

00:05:26.620 everything.

00:05:27.220 And basically to get on the app, so it would be female only.

00:05:31.740 We had an onboarding process, which was that you would take a selfie and that selfie would

00:05:37.880 go through AI and it would be that AI would help us determine if the user was male or female,

00:05:42.540 just based on a selfie.

00:05:43.920 Because you actually can tell if someone is male or female just by looking at them.

00:05:49.220 This is how it's always been.

00:05:51.160 Well, there goes our monetization.

00:05:54.140 Thanks, Sal.

00:05:55.380 Down the drain.

00:05:56.320 I remember when we first got the idea and we were thinking like, how would this even

00:06:01.560 be possible to make an online space just for women? 1.00

00:06:04.500 And when we found out that there was this technology that we could use, my thought was,

00:06:08.820 oh, well, that's the least controversial way to do it because everyone takes selfies all

00:06:12.880 the time.

00:06:13.760 And you can, yeah, you can just tell, like we walk down the street every day, not even

00:06:18.100 realizing that we're registering.

00:06:19.740 That's a man, that's a woman, blah, blah, blah. 0.98

00:06:21.020 Like it's just, it's so beyond like just subconscious second nature or whatever.

00:06:26.760 So I was really excited.

00:06:28.280 I didn't know that we had so blindly yet perfectly walked into this sex versus gender war where

00:06:36.080 people were saying that any man could say he was a woman and be accepted as that.

00:06:41.240 I mean, we couldn't have, you couldn't have planned it better.

00:06:44.000 And so I'm not sure exactly how the trans activists found us, but they did in that testing

00:06:49.340 phase.

00:06:49.800 And because we didn't have all of like the onboarding features set to how they were going

00:06:55.480 to be for launch or anything, just we were inundated with thousands upon thousands of

00:06:59.660 men who created profiles saying kill TERFs and rape TERFs and whatnot.

00:07:03.640 And so that's how I was introduced to the term TERF.

00:07:05.780 And they left reviews on the app store and Google play, like thousands of them saying,

00:07:10.700 you know, you're transphobic and whatnot.

00:07:13.160 So it was the 7th of February, 2020.

00:07:15.880 So just straight away, I was like, I have to find out what's going on.

00:07:20.560 Like, this is insanity.

00:07:21.860 And I found on Twitter, um, that there were women like Helen Joyce, Julie Bindle, Kathleen

00:07:28.720 Stock, um, Jane Claire Jones, Glenna, all these people.

00:07:33.960 And then a lot of other women as well, speaking out going, you know, sort of the house is on 1.00

00:07:39.740 fire and I just, and, uh, Kelly J is the other one, sorry, that I also discovered.

00:07:45.480 And I just, I just started researching everything I could about it.

00:07:51.120 And then when JK Rowling did her around, when she did her essay, that's what sort of gave

00:07:56.640 me the courage to be like, okay, I need to start speaking out about this because I have

00:08:00.680 a startup that's floundering and I, I don't believe I've done anything wrong.

00:08:05.960 And so how did this start?

00:08:08.760 Was it a particular individual who let other people know on social media?

00:08:14.680 Was it part of a storm?

00:08:16.360 I mean, how did this begin?

00:08:17.500 I have absolutely no idea where that very first one began.

00:08:21.260 I couldn't tell you, but I do know that like, um, as we went on, like, so there would be

00:08:28.240 like men every day would try to get on.

00:08:31.300 Sometimes like it could be a really slow day.

00:08:33.040 So there might only be 50, but then you'd have a day when it was like thousands, like

00:08:37.720 in fact thousands an hour, like it was just crazy.

00:08:40.880 And they take the selfie.

00:08:42.080 So you'd see who was trying to get on and that they were just men.

00:08:44.600 Um, and sometimes there'd be this big influx and they'd be wearing gamer headsets.

00:08:51.840 And so it'd be like, oh, this must be a Twitch related thing or something.

00:08:55.720 Um, but that's the most we could know.

00:08:58.320 Sometimes it would be trans activists on Twitter.

00:09:00.360 Cause I, I find the tweets like, um, that Katie Montgomery individual had done it a few

00:09:05.620 times.

00:09:06.040 In fact, when I was in labor with my daughter, we were under attack then.

00:09:09.380 And then I eventually had to say like, I can't monitor this anymore.

00:09:12.460 I have to go to the hospital.

00:09:14.380 Um, but yeah, so sometimes we could trace it to sort of some trans activist online, but

00:09:20.500 other times it was just like, who knows where this is coming from.

00:09:23.860 We're under attack.

00:09:25.640 And because there was one particular individual who was the headliner, shall we put it, uh,

00:09:32.300 charmingly named Roxy Tickle? 0.99

00:09:35.780 Yeah.

00:09:36.620 So Roxanne Tickle is the man who claims to be a woman who is taking me to federal court.

00:09:42.860 So his story with the app is slightly different in terms of, um, not being sort of someone

00:09:48.380 who like sort of came in during an attack.

00:09:51.780 I don't think I'm not a hundred percent sure, but anyway.

00:09:54.280 So he actually did make it onto the app and I'll explain how that can happen.

00:09:59.360 So with the onboarding software that we had, we had it set to 94% accuracy because through

00:10:04.980 our testing, we found that was the safest way.

00:10:08.680 So no woman would get rejected, but maybe occasionally there would be a man that would come through.

00:10:15.280 And our reasoning was, it would be better to have to kick out some men occasionally than

00:10:22.580 to not have, to have any woman like just be rejected from the app.

00:10:27.740 So rightly or wrongly, that's what we went with.

00:10:30.780 So occasionally there was like a guy that we'd get through, we'd be alerted to it or we'd

00:10:34.640 see it happen.

00:10:35.760 We would remove them.

00:10:37.580 Um, sometimes they would like, um, fall through our checking system.

00:10:41.280 We'd find them a few days later.

00:10:42.340 We kicked them off.

00:10:43.160 That's basically what happened here.

00:10:45.280 Um, I don't remember it at the time specifically because it was just another guy I was kicking

00:10:52.160 off, but I saw that there was a guy on there and I was like, oh, off you go.

00:10:57.500 And then any more of it.

00:11:00.200 And then a few weeks later, I got a call and a text on my phone from him saying like, this

00:11:05.780 is like the first time he became like a relative person in my life saying, like I'm Roxy Tickle

00:11:10.340 trying to get on the app.

00:11:11.660 Um, I think he might've said he was trans then.

00:11:14.960 I'm not sure.

00:11:15.720 I didn't keep the text.

00:11:16.860 I just didn't think that this person was ever going to take me to court.

00:11:20.060 And so I, because I had the phone number, I just put it into our system and checked and

00:11:23.860 I was like, oh, that's a man.

00:11:24.860 And I called my dad and I was like, there's this guy who's trying to get on Twitter, open

00:11:28.800 on Twitter, on Giggle.

00:11:30.520 And he's called and text my phone.

00:11:32.380 And my dad said, block him, block his, like block his number and don't tell your mother

00:11:36.560 because my mom lives in like perpetual fear that I'm going to get attacked.

00:11:40.320 So I didn't tell her.

00:11:42.480 And then two months later, I got a, um, she, I was served with a human rights complaint

00:11:48.800 from the Australian Human Rights Commission from Roxy Tickle for alleged gender identity

00:11:54.140 discrimination.

00:11:54.640 And at this point I was 15 weeks pregnant.

00:11:57.260 So to put it into perspective of how long this has been going on for my daughter is 14

00:12:02.780 months old.

00:12:03.320 And by the time this is all resolved, there's a good chance she'll be three, maybe four.

00:12:09.760 So, yeah.

00:12:11.120 So the case could tickle be giggle. 0.99

00:12:13.500 Just in, if anything couldn't become more.

00:12:18.420 Tickle be giggle. 0.99

00:12:19.900 I mean, so there will be people listening to this going, well, you know, so you're being

00:12:26.220 unfair.

00:12:26.940 Why is it so important that your app is a female only space?

00:12:31.020 Can you explain to us why, why is it so important that the app is female only?

00:12:37.360 Well, if it, in terms of just rather, instead of just getting into like the importance of

00:12:42.740 female only spaces, just in terms of this particular one, if the app isn't female only, it's like

00:12:47.400 congratulation, I've invented Twitter.

00:12:50.360 Like the point of difference with it is it's female only. 0.84

00:12:54.580 Like, I mean, if I was to let men who claim to be women on, then it's not female only. 0.52

00:13:01.160 And yeah, I've just invented a place that's exactly like any other place on the internet.

00:13:05.420 So, you know, yeah, there's no point to it.

00:13:09.340 Then if you go deeper with it, why fight back?

00:13:13.440 It's because one, it's not true.

00:13:16.680 It's just not true.

00:13:17.980 Like this person is not a woman and I'm just, I'm not going to give in to that. 1.00

00:13:23.480 I refuse to believe it.

00:13:25.320 And second, like female only spaces, women's rights in general, whether it's female only 1.00

00:13:29.320 spaces, women's sport and services or different opportunities that are offered to women, they 0.98

00:13:34.480 are just, they're just too important and already like hard fought for it to just give in.

00:13:41.380 And I, I, I can't do it.

00:13:43.820 I've never really been someone who is, I've never been an activist before in my life or

00:13:49.420 anything like that, but I'm just like, no, I, I care too much about this, but I really

00:13:54.960 am.

00:13:55.180 My foundation of it is it's just not true.

00:13:57.480 I cannot believe it.

00:13:58.600 And I just can't, I can't let society just force us all to believe this.

00:14:04.180 Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond musical, A Beautiful Noise is coming to Toronto.

00:14:09.680 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs

00:14:14.440 you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans and Sweet Caroline.

00:14:19.200 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.

00:14:23.260 The Neil Diamond musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:14:26.080 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, The Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:14:31.020 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:14:32.840 Does it surprise you that Australia has then essentially, they're on the side, Australia

00:14:45.220 or the law, the legal system is on the side of this person who claims to be a woman called 1.00

00:14:51.340 Roxanne Tickle? 1.00

00:14:52.640 Oh my God, it shocks me so much.

00:14:56.760 I, I had, I had no idea.

00:14:59.640 I mean, I was in America when the law was changed.

00:15:02.780 So in 2013, what happened?

00:15:05.200 We had our first female prime minister and it's her government that did this, which is 1.00

00:15:08.960 just adds so much insult to injury.

00:15:11.300 So it was Julia Gillard was prime minister and her government took out the definition of woman 0.73

00:15:17.940 from the Sex Discrimination Act and put in gender identity into it, which made the act

00:15:25.240 completely muddled because now you have gender in the Sex Discrimination Act.

00:15:31.260 And so obviously it's just like this.

00:15:33.080 So it's not specifically that recognizing sex is outlawed in any way.

00:15:38.840 It's that, it's which one is more relevant.

00:15:44.060 Now, no one has tested it in any massive way yet in Australia.

00:15:50.860 Most people have been, um, you know, just intimidated by the law and the process.

00:15:55.800 There's a lot of places that have just fallen to it and given in because, you know, it is

00:16:00.860 so daunting, but you know, I just, I couldn't because I, I mean, you guys know it's like when

00:16:07.460 you have a startup, I can invest in money.

00:16:09.120 I, you know, these people invested in an app for women.

00:16:11.980 It was not an app for men.

00:16:13.680 We think they're women and women. 1.00

00:16:14.840 It was just an app for women. 0.51

00:16:15.960 And I have a responsibility to these people and just to women in general and to myself.

00:16:20.160 And so I was like, yeah, I'll take it all the way to fight it.

00:16:25.320 And so that's what we're doing.

00:16:25.960 We're doing a constitutional challenge, um, basically to try and get gender out of the 1.00

00:16:31.680 Sex Discrimination Act because it doesn't work there. 0.56

00:16:33.640 Well, Sal, I really want to pick up on that because it's really a fascinating conversation

00:16:37.800 that, as you well know, is happening around the world, not just in Australia.

00:16:41.800 But I'm curious to, look, I know for you it's personal, so it's perhaps insensitive of me

00:16:45.960 to ask, but I do think it's important.

00:16:47.540 It's a question we've discussed with various people.

00:16:50.280 I mean, Sam Harris, when we last had him on, he was saying, well, look, I think Twitter

00:16:54.360 should be able to discriminate against anybody if they don't want this person on the platform.

00:16:58.760 They're free to do so.

00:16:59.800 But then I suppose the question is, what if somebody wanted to create an app for, I don't

00:17:05.100 know, only white people or only Gentiles or whatever, you know, called Tinder or something?

00:17:12.720 I think it's called 4chan, mate.

00:17:14.520 Whatever, right?

00:17:16.200 So, you know, I suppose the question Francis asked you earlier, I think is important to

00:17:20.880 answer, which is why is it important to have an app that is able to exclude men?

00:17:27.820 Yeah.

00:17:28.420 I mean, apps that, like some niche social networks that exclude people is nothing new.

00:17:32.980 I mean, in 2010, no one was asking Grindr to justify why they were excluding women.

00:17:38.480 We just accepted it. 0.84

00:17:39.380 It was an app for gay men.

00:17:41.500 It's only because of the introduction of gender ideology that suddenly we have to justify all 0.91

00:17:46.000 of these things because they've turned society upside down so much.

00:17:49.520 But niche apps and websites in general exist for everyone.

00:17:57.120 I mean, in terms of like there is apps that are religious based, like there are dating

00:18:01.440 apps like J-Date and things like that that aren't just based on religion.

00:18:05.940 And they've never been asked to justify themselves in the manner that something just for women

00:18:10.300 is.

00:18:12.000 And it's interesting, like when you're talking to a lot of women, like we just get it.

00:18:15.900 And then when you're talking to men, you have to go like, how do you try and explain why

00:18:21.060 a woman, an app just for women would be important? 0.95

00:18:24.600 No, no.

00:18:24.920 I get it too, Sal.

00:18:26.260 I just want you to explain it for people who are, yeah.

00:18:29.300 So, I mean, the internet is different for everyone and a cesspool for everybody.

00:18:37.620 It is very much an interesting place for women. 0.99

00:18:41.860 Like part of the reason how we got the idea for it is when I'd moved from Hollywood to

00:18:46.700 New York before I'd come home, I was looking for a room to rent in New York.

00:18:50.880 And in that process, like I was just using like roommates.com and all of those things.

00:18:55.640 And, you know, there'd be these guys going, oh, do you want, you could rent a room here

00:18:59.320 for free if you walk around naked, or do you want a boyfriend as well?

00:19:02.280 And it was just like, can I just do one thing without this cool stuff, like just something.

00:19:08.240 And so it was just sort of going like, okay, there is just, is there just a way to just

00:19:14.540 have a little refuge where we could just avoid that if we wanted to.

00:19:19.500 Like, obviously there's lots of women who are like, oh, no, don't care. 1.00

00:19:22.060 I can use that, but like, I'll use anything.

00:19:23.900 This stuff doesn't bother me.

00:19:25.580 And that's fine.

00:19:26.700 But then there are women who are just like, no, I'd like to just spend some time with 1.00

00:19:31.320 women, basically, and talk and just connect and talk to women all around the world. 1.00

00:19:39.340 So, yeah, I mean, I understand the need to justify it.

00:19:44.520 And obviously, like, I mean, I'm going to have to in court, but it is a weird situation

00:19:50.740 where you're like, you know, there is an app out there right now.

00:19:54.020 It's called OnlyFans.

00:19:55.260 It encourages like 18 year old girls to get on there and take naked photos of themselves 0.98

00:19:59.760 for like a depressingly small amount of money for most of them.

00:20:02.660 And again, no one is asking anyone to justify this.

00:20:05.220 But the moment it's like something women, it's like, why? 1.00

00:20:07.640 Why would you want that?

00:20:08.580 And I think the answer is because we do, because we want it.

00:20:12.340 I don't know if you have to go.

00:20:13.620 You should have to go much further than that in sort of a, just in a social situation.

00:20:20.460 I mean, look, I agree with you.

00:20:23.600 But what does it say as to the wider society, to the way that we perceive women, to the way

00:20:31.300 that women are, let's say, I mean, judged in one way or another? 0.83

00:20:37.720 However, the fact that you want to set up an app, which is only for women and for the

00:20:42.980 vast majority of people, they go, well, yeah, okay, I get it.

00:20:45.780 That makes sense.

00:20:47.040 But to a small percentage of people, that is deemed to be offensive.

00:20:51.200 I mean, what does that say?

00:20:52.780 Well, yeah, I mean, because most men, like most men are lovely.

00:20:56.280 We wouldn't be functioning as a society if most men weren't lovely. 0.52

00:20:59.880 And so most men don't even go near the thing.

00:21:02.440 Like they just go, oh, that exists.

00:21:03.680 Who cares?

00:21:04.420 The moment a guy is trying to get onto it, you're like, oh, the chances of you being

00:21:08.440 a lovely guy are slim to none.

00:21:10.940 But at the same time, like, it's like, say, to use the example that I'm going through,

00:21:17.620 like Roxanne Tickle can't go on the app for the exact same reason that my dad can't use

00:21:22.280 it.

00:21:22.440 Like the man that I trust more than any man in the world.

00:21:24.720 So I'm not making necessarily a personal judgment on like the applicant in the case.

00:21:29.900 It's just, they're just male.

00:21:31.660 Like, just for no other reason.

00:21:34.540 Like, it's just, you're just a guy.

00:21:37.880 We'll be back with our guest in a minute.

00:21:39.940 But first, we want to take a moment to talk about our partners, GiveSendGo.

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00:23:08.220 And now, back to the interview.

00:23:11.380 Sal, do you think a lot of this is happening because we've sort of tried to pretend for

00:23:18.320 a while that there is no difference between men and women and people have sort of imbibed

00:23:22.440 this idea, but actually there is quite a big difference.

00:23:25.720 And I understand, by the way, the intention of the people who wanted to raise those differences.

00:23:30.660 They wanted to protect, you know, they wanted to empower women.

00:23:34.580 They wanted women to get into places where power was held, et cetera, et cetera. 1.00

00:23:38.580 But we somehow ended up in a place where maybe that idea got taken to its logical conclusion

00:23:43.720 and now we're here.

00:23:45.360 Yeah.

00:23:45.880 I wrestle with this a lot because, like, I think, you know, obviously, like, say feminism would 0.87

00:23:51.600 be the ideology or, like, the belief system or whatever that would be talking about here

00:23:57.960 because that's what is the one that did it.

00:24:00.440 And, you know, there's nothing that's above criticism.

00:24:02.680 So I think that it's always important to just go like, oh, hang on, did they do something

00:24:06.360 wrong or did they go too far?

00:24:08.100 Yeah, I mean, I go like, even if there were just some feminists or women who called themselves 1.00

00:24:16.060 or self-identified as feminists that they're actually not, they sort of, like, lost their 0.97

00:24:20.740 way a little bit and sort of overthought something that didn't even need to be thought about.

00:24:26.440 You just go like, yeah, but still there was no feminist theory or want in society that 1.00

00:24:37.460 was ever, like, implemented without, like, a massive fight, like, huge, huge fights.

00:24:42.960 I mean, women, to get the right to vote was decades and very traumatic.

00:24:48.440 Whereas this, in terms of how it was just implemented into society and institutional capture and then

00:24:54.720 into laws in stealth for most of the time, I just don't think that society went, this one

00:25:02.520 feminist idea, we're going to really grab and just implement with no argument and go with it 1.00

00:25:08.980 and no debate, no questions.

00:25:10.820 It just, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense to me.

00:25:15.540 So while, like, there might have been some academics who are sort of talking nonsense,

00:25:20.380 I don't know if that's really what caused this.

00:25:25.000 I do think, I'm sort of in agreement with, like, Helen Joyce on this, that it was, like,

00:25:30.540 the autogynophiles, this sort of the sexual fetishists, especially the really powerful ones

00:25:35.980 with, like, she calls it, like, the nuclear reactor in it and just that drive and their

00:25:41.500 money and power was potentially the thing to get us to where we are now more than anything

00:25:49.100 else, in terms of where we are in legal capture, I think.

00:25:52.920 Because they want more than anything else to be able to go into female-only spaces. 0.99

00:25:58.020 And what is their argument, Sal?

00:25:59.980 Because I'm sure that isn't it.

00:26:02.120 What is their argument as to why they should be allowed to access your app?

00:26:06.720 Is it that you're being transphobic?

00:26:08.700 Is it that you're not affirming their identity?

00:26:13.100 Or is there something else?

00:26:14.240 Well, if they claim to be women, they are women, according to the current definition,

00:26:19.560 right?

00:26:19.780 So you're discriminating against women. 0.98

00:26:23.360 Well, what's really interesting about that is you would think, then, if they actually

00:26:30.860 thought of this individual as a woman, or any man who claims to be a woman as a woman,

00:26:35.340 then wouldn't it be sex discrimination?

00:26:37.380 But they're like, no, this is gender identity discrimination.

00:26:40.000 It's like, well, the fact that you're not even calling it sex discrimination actually

00:26:43.560 does prove to a point that you don't think this person is a woman either.

00:26:46.980 You're just going in with an ideology that's been created.

00:26:51.220 So the Australian Human Rights Commission has intervened in the case as amicus curia, which

00:26:57.120 means friend of the court.

00:26:59.720 And they're definitely not my friend in the court.

00:27:02.900 They have intervened and said, yes, this man is a woman.

00:27:06.720 Um, the submission that they came out a few weeks ago, I can't even articulate it.

00:27:14.520 It is the most batshit insane 26 pages I've ever read in my entire life.

00:27:19.540 It's like you're reading it going like, this is like a draft for 1984 that Orwell went, no,

00:27:28.200 no one will believe this.

00:27:29.220 I've gone too far.

00:27:30.100 Like, let's strip it back.

00:27:31.400 They literally say that, um, biologists, this is a sex discrimination commissioner saying

00:27:36.220 is that sex is not binary, but it can also be changed.

00:27:40.560 They, at one point they were saying that, um, a trans woman's desire to be pregnant would

00:27:47.460 mean that they are a woman. 1.00

00:27:49.720 And what on earth are you talking about?

00:27:53.320 Like we're talking about a man here.

00:27:55.120 And so you just, like, they don't really have any arguments beyond we say he's a woman.

00:28:03.020 So therefore he's a woman and, and sex can be changed.

00:28:06.980 So there you go.

00:28:07.500 And you're like, but where's your evidence?

00:28:09.240 Like that's one of the craziest things in the whole process.

00:28:12.360 And I think some other people who have had to go through legal processes with this, with

00:28:16.920 gender ideology specifically would feel the same.

00:28:20.020 You're in this position where you've got to find all of this evidence and, and, you know,

00:28:24.020 argue your case and make sure you can back it up with facts.

00:28:26.860 But at no point is anyone going, should we get evidence that he's a woman?

00:28:32.220 I'm like, cause that's stops there for me.

00:28:36.040 Like if you're just being able to assert he's a woman, like that's just not how the legal

00:28:39.480 process works in any other area from my understanding was always been evidence based.

00:28:44.600 And, you know, you just, you go like, you know, one of the things in, um, in the human rights

00:28:52.060 commission, submission and description of the law, they're saying, you know, it's a gender

00:28:57.040 identity and it's gendered behavior. 0.56

00:28:58.940 And you're like, well, you know, if we're talking about lived experience or anything here,

00:29:03.500 this gendered behavior is exactly how I would expect a man to behave. 1.00

00:29:08.320 Like, where does my lived experience come into it?

00:29:12.240 Like during this process, I was pregnant.

00:29:15.420 I had a 20 week scan.

00:29:17.040 I found out that I was having a girl.

00:29:20.280 Does that mean nothing?

00:29:21.760 Like just.

00:29:22.480 No, it just means you're transphobic.

00:29:24.140 Yeah.

00:29:24.680 But I want to ask you, do you think that the, this is all about the invention of this idea

00:29:31.820 of gender identity and, and everything else cascades down from that?

00:29:37.020 We've had this conversation with many people on the show, as you know, I am very, I remain

00:29:41.940 highly unconvinced that the creation of the concept of gender was a useful, a good thing. 0.96

00:29:47.760 Um, and it seems to me like once you say, well, there are sex and then there is gender

00:29:54.900 and you can change your gender.

00:29:57.020 This inevitably follows because the concept of gender is sort of how you behave makes what

00:30:02.800 you are and then, well, then people can pretend to be whatever they want because they can

00:30:08.980 wear a dress and then suddenly they are a woman. 0.92

00:30:12.760 Yeah.

00:30:12.960 I mean, there is an argument to be made that the gender does not need to be in the law at

00:30:18.620 all.

00:30:18.900 And it would actually be better for society if it wasn't because first of all, you know,

00:30:24.120 making, um, an identity, especially sort of, you know, just this, um, self-declared identity,

00:30:32.620 the responsibility of the law is incredibly difficult and messy, but even just like the

00:30:39.880 protection of sex, which everybody has, and it's, you know, easy to acknowledge and establish

00:30:45.400 and everything actually does all of the work in the law.

00:30:48.640 So like, if you are a man who wants to wear women's clothes or whatever, which like, I am

00:30:53.960 very like live and let live, even if I don't like the reason why he wants to wear women's 0.99

00:30:58.660 clothes, like whether it is autogynephilia or something, still I'm like in a free society,

00:31:03.680 I can't stop you.

00:31:04.660 Like go and wear women's clothes. 1.00

00:31:06.540 The law doesn't have to be involved in any specific way because if saying in an employment

00:31:14.060 situation, you would think that if he wanted to wear women's clothes and he was told he was not

00:31:19.380 allowed, it would be on the basis of his sex that he wasn't allowed because they'd be going,

00:31:23.820 you're a male.

00:31:24.600 And so you can't wear women's clothes. 1.00

00:31:26.820 But if so, that would be, that would be a sex discrimination.

00:31:29.460 You would think.

00:31:31.160 So yeah, gender doesn't need to be there. 1.00

00:31:34.740 The state should stay out of people's brains like this.

00:31:37.160 It doesn't need to happen.

00:31:38.580 It should just be there to make sure society is functioning.

00:31:41.600 But gender has made it that nothing is functioning. 1.00

00:31:45.100 Like everything is falling apart. 1.00

00:31:46.440 Everything's getting distracted because of this, like the stupidest issue of all time. 1.00

00:31:51.400 Yeah. 0.99

00:31:51.600 And it's look, and let's be brutally honest about this.

00:31:55.640 Australia don't have a good record for the last couple of years for staying out of people's 0.99

00:32:02.360 lives.

00:32:02.860 We saw that during COVID.

00:32:04.740 You went to use a technical term, absolutely batshit as a result of that.

00:32:09.440 Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

00:32:12.740 It's one of those situations where when like, when you're living here and you don't, you

00:32:16.380 don't feel it like slowly creeping in.

00:32:19.280 It's just very sudden.

00:32:20.840 You sort of wake up one day and you go, oh, it's, God, it's been happening for years.

00:32:25.220 Yeah.

00:32:26.400 It's unusual because Australians are pretty easygoing people. 0.77

00:32:31.000 We're also pretty straightforward and like some no bullshit kind of people.

00:32:34.140 So there, it's definitely, definitely like there is that.

00:32:38.740 I mean, it's like in the UK, it's like in the US and Canada, it was so divided right 0.74

00:32:43.760 now of basically the people have bought into all of this crap and seem to apparently love 0.98

00:32:49.020 being told what to think. 0.97

00:32:50.940 And then you've got to look at the other people who are like, no, I'd prefer to think

00:32:54.240 on my own things.

00:32:55.080 So yeah, I, that's part of how I missed it.

00:32:59.940 Like that it was even all happening with the gender stuff as I was focusing on, I was still

00:33:05.380 still, you know, like me too bubble.

00:33:06.960 Also in my online like algorithms, I was very much in like an, I hate Trump Twitter bubble.

00:33:12.100 I didn't tweet, but I would read everything.

00:33:14.360 So I completely missed that this was going on.

00:33:17.220 And then COVID happened and I was starting to go, oh, oh, that's a bit weird.

00:33:21.060 And then, yeah, we all woke up to find out that, oh, hey, you don't have that many rights

00:33:27.380 anymore.

00:33:29.100 It was weird to watch certainly from us.

00:33:31.740 And it's not like the UK was particularly good on that stuff either.

00:33:35.120 And tell us more about how the legal case has gone and what your expectations are for

00:33:40.360 the future.

00:33:41.680 Yeah.

00:33:41.940 So we basically, he, so he, he'd done last year, he'd done the Australian human rights

00:33:50.260 complaint.

00:33:51.760 I could have gone to conciliation with that.

00:33:55.520 And that's where they, they try and resolve it outside of the courts, basically like a

00:33:58.920 mediation type thing.

00:34:00.180 But I'm sorry to interrupt.

00:34:01.220 What does this guy want?

00:34:02.540 He wants to be on the app.

00:34:04.120 He wants compensation.

00:34:06.020 Yes.

00:34:08.100 Yes.

00:34:08.500 And yes.

00:34:08.860 And he wants a written apology and, um, all men who claim to be woman on the app, um,

00:34:15.880 in, in court, he's going for money as well for damages, but in initial human rights,

00:34:19.860 like he wasn't, I think the conditions for me to go to conciliation were that I'd have

00:34:24.500 to, him on the app, all men think to be woman on the app, um, an apology, attend sex 0.70

00:34:31.120 and gender education, which could only be re-education because I am very educated on

00:34:35.260 this issue.

00:34:35.740 Like I can teach the death class.

00:34:37.960 Um, so, so they want, sorry, again, sorry to interrupt, but I think this is important

00:34:42.140 not to skip over part of the things that you will do.

00:34:46.340 If you lose this case, you have to go on a re-education course.

00:34:50.120 No, no, no.

00:34:51.000 This was in reconciliation.

00:34:52.560 Sorry.

00:34:52.940 Okay.

00:34:53.300 So this was in the human rights commission.

00:34:54.880 And then the other thing was, um, they wanted me to mod, uh, moderate all content on the app

00:35:01.300 so that like men like him would not be offended because basically there are a lot of women just 1.00

00:35:06.780 turfing out on there and talking about their rights and because of course they can, they

00:35:11.140 can go and talk about them without trans activists, men, male trans activists getting

00:35:14.820 abused.

00:35:15.260 Now, a female trans activist would be welcome to come onto the app. 1.00

00:35:19.000 Um, so long as she was civil and didn't harass and just abided by the rules.

00:35:21.960 Like you don't, there's no like thought control or anything.

00:35:24.540 No one has to agree with everything, but I mean, they basically stayed away from it.

00:35:29.000 It was only the men who were trying to get on.

00:35:31.120 So I said no to conciliation because I knew that I was never going to agree to those terms.

00:35:35.900 And then also by this point, I was like third trimester pregnancy and I didn't, with the

00:35:40.360 stress of it, I was, I'm not putting myself through it, not going to happen.

00:35:44.160 And so we said no to it and knowing that the risk could be that he'd take it to federal

00:35:50.020 court.

00:35:50.460 So then he had 60 days to file.

00:35:52.360 He filed on the 61st day, uh, the 60th day, but just how the days felt was felt it was the

00:35:58.040 61st.

00:35:59.340 Then he withdrew about a month later, which we were like, Oh, basically that's a win.

00:36:04.840 Like we've won this.

00:36:05.620 And then he refiled again about five and a half months later, like Christmas time last

00:36:09.700 year.

00:36:10.020 So when he refiled again, he was what's fastest out of time, like beyond like the time from

00:36:15.120 the complaint to when he was able to do it.

00:36:16.680 So he had to get granted permission to, for the case to be heard.

00:36:21.760 And by this point I was like, we could have really pushed back on that, but I was like,

00:36:26.960 no, you want a day in court.

00:36:29.340 But okay, I'm not going to push back on this.

00:36:32.260 Like it, it has this, we have to resolve this.

00:36:35.120 And if this is the case, it's going to help resolve it.

00:36:37.680 I'll take it on.

00:36:38.500 Like, you know, you, you don't want to do it, but you're sort of in the position where

00:36:42.420 you're like, okay, I'm just going to rise to the occasion because maybe hopefully we

00:36:45.540 can just end this and we can all live on with our lives and have some normality back.

00:36:51.460 So in the case, yeah, he's asking for, um, yeah, money for damages and like, because

00:36:59.500 How much money?

00:37:00.500 So, well, I'm not sure because Australian damages work very specifically.

00:37:05.460 So like, I don't think that it's not, I don't think it's like millions and millions of dollars.

00:37:09.400 Oh, it wouldn't shock me at this point.

00:37:11.060 I mean, who knows?

00:37:11.960 Like, but, um, but it's, it's still just money.

00:37:17.000 Like it is a thing where you just go like, it's just an app.

00:37:19.520 Uh, it's just an app and like, I, I don't, but, but it's not though.

00:37:24.880 You know that, right?

00:37:25.600 Because this isn't an app.

00:37:26.820 This is about the principle.

00:37:28.680 That's why you, that's why you're fighting it because of the principle.

00:37:32.080 No, exactly.

00:37:33.220 So it's just, yeah.

00:37:34.640 So basically, um, the other, and actually this, just to go back to your point earlier

00:37:39.360 about, um, about people being able to choose who it is, who, who are on their platform and

00:37:45.780 who are not, and where sort of is the line with that.

00:37:47.980 Um, so for us, we built our own crowdfunding platform because we had the resources to do

00:37:52.400 it, like the ability to do it.

00:37:53.840 And we knew that we would get kicked off, like GoFundMe or anything like that, because they

00:37:58.840 are all captured by this stuff.

00:38:01.080 So like, just, we'll just, I don't want the stress of it.

00:38:03.260 We'll just cut it out.

00:38:04.520 We'll build our own.

00:38:06.480 We have been, so then building our own, we had to put in payment systems, like so that,

00:38:10.980 you know, you can just put your card details in or Apple and Google pay, whatever.

00:38:15.020 So we've been kicked off to payment platforms on the basis of complaints, been kicked off

00:38:21.400 Stripe and we've been kicked off Square.

00:38:23.140 So the crowdfunder is actually down at the moment because we're trying to find a third.

00:38:27.320 We're in the process of fixing.

00:38:28.600 It'll be fixed in the next few days.

00:38:30.380 Um, thankfully, but at both of the times that it's happened, it's obviously a huge inconvenience

00:38:37.120 and it's really frustrating, but I've always sat there and gone, well, if you don't want

00:38:42.360 us to use your platform, I respect that.

00:38:45.720 I don't love it, but I respect it.

00:38:47.780 I'm not going to go and take you to court over it.

00:38:49.840 What I would like is the right to do the same thing is to choose who is and who is not on

00:38:55.120 my platform.

00:38:56.220 So even during this process, I've experienced people having the rights that I would like

00:39:01.360 to have.

00:39:02.000 Um, and yeah, not things, hopefully we'll get there.

00:39:08.100 And I think we will, like, I'm very, very optimistic about it because I just think, I just think

00:39:12.960 truth has to win out eventually.

00:39:14.720 Sometimes you have to fight for it, but I think you get there in the end.

00:39:17.460 It's just true.

00:39:18.100 Yeah.

00:39:18.800 Yeah.

00:39:19.180 I mean, I hope that as well.

00:39:21.920 My question is, and look, maybe you don't know the answer to this.

00:39:25.560 How is he getting his money?

00:39:26.780 Um, so from my understanding, his legal team is pro bono because, you know, I mean, you're

00:39:36.900 a big firm and it's like, oh, this is a big, you know, civil rights, human rights case, you

00:39:41.820 know, poor transgender woman not being allowed to go on an app. 0.99

00:39:46.000 This is a big case.

00:39:48.140 So that's taken care of.

00:39:50.400 And then he also got a $50,000 branch from, um, it's called the Brada Fund.

00:39:55.680 Which, um, is, um, like a, they, they give like funding to like legislation challenges

00:40:05.420 and, and things like that.

00:40:06.980 So, yeah, I mean, but in a case like this, where, um, you know, a federal court case,

00:40:11.680 $50,000 is lunch.

00:40:13.220 So it's not like an obscene amount of money that he's been given, but yeah, I mean, the

00:40:17.880 financial threat to him is significantly different than what it is to me.

00:40:24.160 Like, obviously there is no government funds that I can go to, to ask for money because

00:40:29.940 I'm battling the government and they're against me.

00:40:32.560 So while the case is always like tickle be giggle, it is fundamentally because of the Australian 0.76

00:40:37.480 Human Rights Commission, it's giggle versus the government. 0.99

00:40:41.020 Wow.

00:40:41.320 And, uh, what happens if you win?

00:40:43.540 Do they have to, do they have to rethink the law?

00:40:46.580 Is that why you're doing this or what happens?

00:40:49.100 So there's a few different ways that it can go.

00:40:51.460 So we're expecting that it's going to go to the high court, no matter what, because if

00:40:56.820 we were to lose in federal court, obviously we're going to appeal it to the high court.

00:41:00.720 And if they lose, especially the Australian Human Rights Commission lose in federal court,

00:41:04.780 there's a huge chance that they would take it to the high court.

00:41:07.600 So you're sort of in this now going like it's high chance it's going to go to the high court.

00:41:12.960 So the high court is really where the constitutional arguments will come into play from my

00:41:17.700 understanding.

00:41:18.860 So if we were to win on a constitutional basis, um, and it was to be found that gender being

00:41:25.600 in the Sex Discrimination Act is unconstitutional.

00:41:28.520 I mean, part of the reason for that is with CEDAW, which like the UN and CEDAW and the, you

00:41:33.280 know, um, the protection of women's rights and all of that, I'm going to have a complete

00:41:37.720 brain fart of what it all stands for.

00:41:39.780 But anyway, look it up.

00:41:41.180 It's all very important.

00:41:42.120 Um, you know, we're a signatory in that and they, you know, this is not an organization

00:41:48.700 that claims that, that trans women are women and our Sex Discrimination Act is based on

00:41:54.780 this.

00:41:55.160 So that's what part of where our constitutional argument comes in.

00:41:59.020 If we win that constitutional argument in the high court, it would mean that gender is 0.96

00:42:03.300 taken out of the Sex Discrimination Act.

00:42:05.020 So it would mean that sex is once again, the defining factor of the Sex Discrimination 0.95

00:42:11.240 Act, which is what a stupid sentence to have to say, but it would mean that female-only 0.97

00:42:16.400 spaces were female again, female-only sports and male-only spaces as well, because I think 0.98

00:42:20.320 that men deserve privacy and dignity in male spaces as well.

00:42:25.100 Um, it would mean that self-ID was off the table.

00:42:28.020 It would, it would just, it would just end it.

00:42:29.440 And so would, I mean, they're not obviously going to go just slink away and be like, oh,

00:42:34.080 well, we gave it a shot.

00:42:35.160 They would obviously try and come back and weave it through the law in a different way,

00:42:38.780 but they'd be doing it where sex had been established as the important thing.

00:42:42.100 And also people knowing what's going on and watching.

00:42:44.980 So it will change the climate of it.

00:42:47.220 Definitely.

00:42:48.000 It sounds like a really important case to me, actually, Sal, because I think one of the

00:42:53.300 things that has been happening is there's a tremendous amount of, uh, cowardice actually

00:42:58.940 around this issue.

00:43:00.760 Uh, and I think everybody's just looking for somebody to take the first step.

00:43:05.580 And so if Australia was to come to a position as a result of you winning, where you were forced

00:43:11.660 to rethink the sort of structural legal underpinning of all of this, I think a lot of other

00:43:17.060 Anglosphere countries might, might then be emboldened to follow suit.

00:43:21.880 Definitely.

00:43:22.600 I mean, it's, it's like how, like, you know, in the UK where you guys are in such a better

00:43:27.460 position than we are on this particular issue, you know, part of the reason is because women 1.00

00:43:31.580 in the UK took it to the courts and they won.

00:43:34.740 Um, and we just, we didn't have a chance to take it to the courts before a lot of the

00:43:41.940 stuff was done because we didn't know about it.

00:43:43.660 Um, and so we are undoing some of the damage.

00:43:47.120 So it is just bigger and a little bit harder, but it's still completely entirely possible.

00:43:51.940 I mean, laws get repealed all the time.

00:43:53.640 It's not out of the ordinary.

00:43:56.820 So yeah, it's just, it, it will be hopefully the thing that makes other countries, like especially

00:44:03.320 Canada, for example, if you think of other Commonwealth countries to make them go, oh, hang on.

00:44:08.500 Um, maybe, maybe there's something in this.

00:44:11.960 I mean, just last week, a, um, news organization in Australia called news.com.au, which is very

00:44:18.120 much against us.

00:44:19.120 Um, they call me a, um, a conservative media figure all the time because welcome to the

00:44:26.620 club.

00:44:28.500 Really?

00:44:29.200 They only ever refer to me as like a media figure or a conservative media figure.

00:44:33.360 And I'm like, and why am I a media figure?

00:44:35.260 What am I talking about?

00:44:36.260 Like they won't give any publicity to giggle or any, like they won't tell people what I

00:44:39.860 actually do.

00:44:41.340 Um, but they just did a poll and found that only 4.2% of Australians think trans women are

00:44:49.600 women and like 82.5% of Australians don't want trans women, men in women's sport.

00:44:55.520 It's like, this is like deeply unpopular in the public.

00:44:59.420 It's just the institutional level.

00:45:02.780 Yeah.

00:45:03.040 Well, Matt Goodwin, who's a regular guest of ours, as you know, he tweeted something,

00:45:07.500 uh, recently, which basically shows that support for self ID and all of this stuff is just

00:45:14.440 going through the floor as people get more educated about the issues.

00:45:18.040 And it's not surprising because surprise, surprise, it's not that complicated.

00:45:22.580 This issue is not that complicated, actually.

00:45:24.940 That's what transphobes say.

00:45:27.340 But it's like how the trans activists try and spin it and say like, there's an increasing

00:45:31.660 amount of transphobia in society. 0.52

00:45:34.060 And it's not, it's just more people realizing that these gender policies are nonsense. 1.00

00:45:40.020 Right.

00:45:40.340 And so you need to fight back against them.

00:45:41.720 It's like, if like the transgender activism community had gone, look, we just are a demographic

00:45:48.640 of people who, you know, like to appear like the opposite sex. 0.98

00:45:53.160 I think, I think it would have been pretty easy to get people to be like, okay, about

00:45:56.580 that.

00:45:56.880 Like most people are let live and let live, don't really care.

00:45:59.560 It doesn't bother me, you know, get on with it.

00:46:02.100 It's because they said that we have to believe this lie, you know, in fear of punishment that

00:46:09.060 we all fought back.

00:46:10.520 Like, if it was just a situation, like we'd say with Roxy Tickle, I'm like, if you want

00:46:14.900 to get up every day and call yourself a woman and wear a woman's clothes and take hormones 0.91

00:46:18.060 or whatever, that's none of my business.

00:46:20.420 I wish you well.

00:46:21.840 The moment that you say that I have to think you're a woman and come into a woman's space, 1.00

00:46:25.560 you've made it my business and I'm not going to accept it.

00:46:29.240 We'll get back to the episode in a minute.

00:46:31.220 But first, we want to talk to you about AG1.

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00:48:02.560 And now back to the interview.

00:48:03.980 There's more and more places in Australia that are fighting back.

00:48:09.020 The Lesbian Action Groups, which is a Melbourne-based group, they're trying to get an exemption

00:48:13.900 to be able to hold a female-only lesbian event like there's any other kind. 0.99

00:48:19.160 And the Australian Human Rights Commission has just said no to them.

00:48:24.420 And so therefore...

00:48:25.540 Wait, so lesbians can't have a female-only event? 1.00

00:48:28.100 No, not in Australia at the moment.

00:48:30.520 Our case will fix that.

00:48:31.940 But at the moment, no.

00:48:33.680 Because the reasoning is so bizarre.

00:48:36.520 Basically, they're all like, you know, we're just against discrimination.

00:48:39.300 It's like, well, you're not.

00:48:40.440 Because you're discriminating against lesbians right now. 1.00

00:48:42.720 But you've just made a choice.

00:48:43.820 Discriminate against lesbians or discriminate against heterosexual men who like to wear dresses.

00:48:48.660 And you made your choice.

00:48:49.800 You discriminated against lesbians. 0.95

00:48:52.060 So they are fighting back and willing to take it all the way as well, which is fantastic.

00:48:58.360 But yeah, I mean, that's where it is in society.

00:49:03.320 Like one of the women in Lesbian Action Group, she phrased it so well.

00:49:07.200 She said that, you know, she can get married now, but she can't go to a lesbian event to meet a spouse. 1.00

00:49:13.820 So yeah, like, so it's like we're not going forward in society.

00:49:21.820 We're going backwards at a very, very fast pace.

00:49:25.360 And whatever happens, I mean, to be blunt, you are going to end up in the high court.

00:49:29.540 Because if Tickle, I mean, this is just bizarre, loses in the constitutional court,

00:49:36.100 he's going to take it to the high court because he's not going to accept that.

00:49:40.620 I would imagine so.

00:49:41.360 So I don't know if it would be more him specifically, if it would be the Australian Human Rights Commission.

00:49:47.100 I would sort of think that the Australian Human Rights Commission who would sort of say,

00:49:50.720 you know, we're going to fight to the end on this.

00:49:53.280 Because, I mean, the Australian Human Rights Commission, from my understanding of what I've read about it,

00:49:58.380 they were one of the ones who lobbied for these laws.

00:50:01.280 So I think they are really there sort of protecting the law that they fought for, that they wrote.

00:50:06.560 And, I mean, so I understand, like, just from that perspective, why they would be there fighting it for the law.

00:50:14.300 That would be probably quite a normal process.

00:50:16.020 It's just that they've written a law that is so insane that, you know, they just didn't, it's like,

00:50:21.500 they just didn't think of, oh, like, what are the ramifications?

00:50:24.680 Because it's like any part of gender ideology, like, if you think about it for more than one second,

00:50:29.320 like, by the time you get to that second second, every part of it has fallen apart.

00:50:33.520 Because you should go, like, oh, hang on, male rapists are going to say they're women and go, 0.99

00:50:37.940 we're going to reward them by putting them in women's prisons, all female-only spaces and sport, 1.00

00:50:43.820 all of that, that's gone.

00:50:44.860 But then also society's freedom of belief or freedom of speech is just gone in an instant.

00:50:50.020 Like, they just didn't think it through.

00:50:51.340 They were just like, oh, protect this one group.

00:50:53.560 And no.

00:50:56.880 Well said.

00:50:58.000 Why did these groups be protected more than anyone else?

00:51:01.760 Well said.

00:51:02.220 So listen, I want to move on to our local sections because we've got a ton of questions from our supporters.

00:51:07.820 But I just wanted to say that, you know, you and I have spoken a little bit on Twitter and stuff,

00:51:13.140 and I'm really glad we had you on because I don't think I fully appreciated the significance of the case you're fighting

00:51:18.240 and the potential impact, actually, not just in Australia, but in the world.

00:51:22.580 So I really hope that, obviously, you do win, and I hope that people support you.

00:51:27.460 Is there a way that people can support you at the moment?

00:51:30.540 Well, yes.

00:51:31.160 So, like, hopefully by the time this comes out, it will all be up and running, hopefully, in the next few days, basically.

00:51:39.180 It should all be back to normal, hopefully.

00:51:40.840 But it's gigglecrowdfund.com.

00:51:43.780 That's our crowdfund.

00:51:45.220 And there's all information about the case and the constitutional challenge is all there.

00:51:49.500 And, yeah, I mean, we have $500,000 Australian dollars to raise at this stage, which is just, like, so incredibly stressful.

00:51:58.160 But, yeah, I know that we'll get there, and the kindness of strangers from all around the world so far has been just absolutely amazing.

00:52:07.620 And the only way I can repay it back is by saying, like, we'll get your rights back.

00:52:11.700 It will be all cool, and then you can go around calling a man a man, and everything will be fantastic.

00:52:17.160 Well, it's a good cause.

00:52:19.060 Sal, before we go over to locals, we obviously, as you know, end with the same question in this part of the interview, which is…

00:52:25.560 What is a woman? 1.00

00:52:26.440 What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

00:52:33.980 I think it does sort of come back to everything that I've just been saying.

00:52:37.120 I don't think we're talking enough about the fact that just, like, the very foundation of democracy, you know, the freedom of belief, freedom of speech, freedom of association,

00:52:47.340 is just at the altar of a demographic of men's feelings right now.

00:52:51.500 And it's, if we can't talk about that, then we can't fix it.

00:52:58.760 And I'm just not willing to give up, you know, just this real thing, democracy, the most important thing for these people.

00:53:08.360 I'm just, I'm not willing to do it.

00:53:09.540 You know what?

00:53:11.780 I will say this, even though I'm instantly going to fall into the feminist trap of hashtag not all men.

00:53:17.860 But I, it's not men's feelings.

00:53:20.180 It's a very small subset of men.

00:53:22.180 It's a demographic of men.

00:53:23.280 It's a specific demographic of men.

00:53:25.960 Yeah.

00:53:26.220 Yeah.

00:53:26.360 Very specific is my point.

00:53:28.320 Very specific.

00:53:29.080 Like, you know, whenever I talk about this, Deb, like, I'll say, oh, a demographic of men.

00:53:33.380 I'll say this on Twitter and they'll be like, oh, not all men.

00:53:35.380 I'm like, if you don't fit into that demographic, I'm not talking about you.

00:53:40.080 It is a very specific demographic.

00:53:41.860 I'm just saying, I think there are actually a lot of men on your side.

00:53:46.760 And I think that's, you know, one of the reasons I think progress is being made is actually it's men and women coming together and working together, which I think we want.

00:53:55.200 Yeah, exactly.

00:53:56.020 I think that's amazing.

00:53:56.780 And I think, you know, men, men have spoken up sometimes that they've been in a position more where they're sort of, they're not getting rape threats and death threats for speaking up at the same sort of rate that a woman is.

00:54:10.260 I mean, there are men around the world who are losing their jobs and being punished.

00:54:12.880 Don't get me wrong.

00:54:13.460 And I don't want to ever minimize that.

00:54:15.260 But I think, you know, for a lot of men that they have seen that it's not even just an attack on women's rights.

00:54:22.720 It is an attack on our basic freedoms.

00:54:24.680 And even from my perspective, if that's the only reason you're coming at this issue, I'm fine with that.

00:54:30.680 Women's rights will be won as a byproduct. 1.00

00:54:33.420 But so it's like, if you're like, I don't really care about women's rights. 0.98

00:54:36.260 I care about truth.

00:54:37.700 Great.

00:54:38.460 Like we're on the same team there.

00:54:40.280 We'll get there in the end together and women's rights will be saved. 1.00

00:54:43.900 Amen.

00:54:44.440 Well, head on over to Locals where we continue the conversation, especially with your questions.

00:54:48.660 Do you think the trans phenomenon is a woke fad or is it here to stay? 0.89

00:54:55.340 We'll be right back.

00:55:25.320 June 7th, 2026 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:55:28.860 Get tickets at Mirvish.com.

TRIGGERnometry - December 03, 2023

Female-Only App Creator SUED - Sall Grover

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