TRIGGERnometry - Fiery Israel-Palestine Debate with Bassem Youssef

00:00:00.560 If you were the Prime Minister of Israel on October 8th, what would you do?

00:00:04.240 If I'm the Prime Minister of Israel like Netanyahu, I'm a killer, I'm a mass murderer,

00:00:07.320 I've been killing Palestinians all my life, and I've absolutely had no pushback, so I

00:00:11.080 would kill.

00:00:12.080 What should Israel have done in your opinion?

00:00:13.720 That's all I'm asking.

00:00:14.720 Not this.

00:00:15.720 But why are you arguing with other people who are not here?

00:00:17.720 No, no, but the argument is crazy.

00:00:19.040 Just talk to me.

00:00:20.560 When I tell you not this, you tell me, so what, as if I have to come up with a solution.

00:00:26.680 The Israeli government, throughout their years, have always chosen forces, have always chosen

00:00:30.920 military conflict, and they are not interested in peace.

00:00:33.400 As a matter of fact, they're talking openly about the end of days.

00:00:37.120 Basim, great to have you on the show.

00:00:40.280 One of the reasons is we haven't talked about the Israel-Palestine situation.

00:00:44.400 Enough.

00:00:45.400 Enough.

00:00:46.400 Nearly enough.

00:00:47.400 And actually, we haven't, for the reason that when October 7th happened, we had a few people

00:00:50.920 on, because we were in America, it was easy to access the people we wanted to talk to.

00:00:54.800 And those are mostly what you would, I guess, say is a pro-Israel perspective.

00:00:58.740 And we've struggled to get people on since, who are sensible and who want to present a

00:01:02.820 different argument.

00:01:03.820 So it was great to have you on.

00:01:05.620 And I guess the way I feel is, I think we see two main perspectives being talked about

00:01:10.140 in both mainstream and actually new media as well, which is, you know, there's one side

00:01:14.480 which is genocide, genocide, genocide.

00:01:16.460 And the other side is, you know, October 7th, therefore Israel is allowed to do whatever

00:01:20.300 it wants.

00:01:21.300 And I think that's kind of not where most people are from speaking to people here in

00:01:25.120 the West.

00:01:26.120 I think a lot of people feel that what they're seeing out of Gaza is horrific, absolutely

00:01:30.540 horrific.

00:01:31.540 And on the other hand, they also feel that what they saw on October 7th was horrific and

00:01:35.920 they sort of expected that response because that's what most countries would do, is what

00:01:40.800 I hear from a lot of people.

00:01:42.740 What do you make of that?

00:01:43.800 And how can we add some nuance to this?

00:01:45.300 So what do you mean most countries would do?

00:01:47.300 So most countries would go and kill 30,000 people?

00:01:49.120 No, most countries would kill a lot more.

00:01:51.120 I mean, if you look at 9-11.

00:01:53.120 So we should be happy with 30,000.

00:01:55.120 No, I'm not saying happy.

00:01:56.120 I'm saying this is what people feel would happen in response to something like October 7th.

00:02:02.120 Just from speaking to normal people.

00:02:03.120 Whether it's right or wrong.

00:02:04.120 But why are we resetting the clock at October 7th?

00:02:07.120 No.

00:02:08.120 I'm not resetting the clock.

00:02:09.120 No, but here's the thing.

00:02:10.120 Because it's either like October 7th, but what about October 2nd?

00:02:16.120 What about September 15th?

00:02:18.120 Like the whole idea of like people think that there was like a ceasefire before October 7th.

00:02:22.220 That's not true.

00:02:23.220 Three weeks before October 7th, Israel bombed Gaza three days straight.

00:02:26.860 And there was no music festivals to do that.

00:02:28.720 I mean, before October 7th, there was 430, 234 Palestinians killed in the West Bank, which

00:02:37.480 is not even in Gaza.

00:02:38.480 There is like 70 kids killed without October 7th.

00:02:42.660 The thing is, you only see October 7th, but the fact is like, if you're a Palestinian, what

00:02:46.760 options do you have?

00:02:47.760 You throw locks, you're a kid, you throw rocks and your limbs will be broken.

00:02:53.140 You join armed resistance, you're going to be called a terrorist and killed.

00:02:56.340 You don't do anything and you sit in your home and your home will be confiscated and

00:02:59.240 you'll be confiscated in the West Bank.

00:03:01.640 You boycott BDS and you don't have a job.

00:03:03.600 So what are you supposed to do?

00:03:05.940 And the fact is...

00:03:06.940 But that argument plays both ways is what I'm saying to you, which is why a lot of people

00:03:10.800 are kind of conflicted, which is why I don't...

00:03:12.840 There's no conflict because before October 7th...

00:03:14.840 Let me make the point, because I don't want to have like a big argument.

00:03:18.420 I'm interested in your perspective, but I have to put the question to you that I think

00:03:22.060 a lot of people would want the answer to, which is if you were the Prime Minister

00:03:25.860 of Israel on October 8th, what would you do?

00:03:30.200 You see, that's again, you're resetting the clock, you are judging people on what you do

00:03:34.320 for their reaction.

00:03:35.760 Yeah.

00:03:36.760 Before October 7th, there is a total of 100,000 Palestinians killed and injured.

00:03:39.760 Fine.

00:03:40.760 Agreed.

00:03:41.760 You cannot keep pushing people to the limit and when they react violently...

00:03:43.760 Okay, what happened October 7th?

00:03:44.760 No, let's accept your argument.

00:03:46.760 What happened October 7th?

00:03:47.760 Well, I'm going to ask you that in a second, but let's accept your argument.

00:03:50.760 For the sake of argument, I'm not saying this is what I think, but for the sake of argument,

00:03:54.100 let's say that October 7th was a perfectly justified uprising on the basis of all the

00:04:00.000 terrible atrocities Israel has committed.

00:04:02.100 Let's say we accept that, okay?

00:04:04.100 You're the Prime Minister of Israel on the 8th of October, what would you do?

00:04:07.100 Yeah.

00:04:08.100 Yeah, because if I'm the Prime Minister of Israel, I will do exactly what Tintin Yahu does because

00:04:12.900 Israel have been doing more stuff than this and was getting away with it, was getting

00:04:16.960 away with murder.

00:04:17.960 But that's what you would do, right?

00:04:19.440 Israel just killed seven international workers from the UN and you know what they did?

00:04:23.440 Oh, sorry.

00:04:24.440 You know what?

00:04:25.440 It's war.

00:04:26.440 I mean, mistakes happen.

00:04:27.440 We're sorry, guys.

00:04:28.440 Up yours.

00:04:29.440 Do you not think that's true though?

00:04:30.440 Of course not because there is a history of Israel killing international workers in the UN with

00:04:34.660 absolutely no consequences.

00:04:36.520 If Israel today stopped the Gaza war, you know what would happen?

00:04:42.120 Israel will be applauded.

00:04:43.120 Thank you so much for just killing 30,000 people.

00:04:45.340 We're so happy that you just killed those amount of people and there will be no consequences

00:04:48.920 for the murders and the war crimes that Israel have been doing for six months.

00:04:52.440 It's crazy.

00:04:53.440 You think, you ask me what should I do?

00:04:55.120 If I'm the Prime Minister of Israel like Netanyahu, I'm a killer.

00:04:57.520 I'm a mass murderer.

00:04:58.520 I've been killing Palestinians all my life and I've absolutely had no pushback.

00:05:01.700 So I will kill.

00:05:02.700 I will do exactly what they say.

00:05:03.700 I don't mean if you were Netanyahu.

00:05:04.700 I mean if you were the Prime Minister of Israel.

00:05:06.300 If I was Netanyahu, I wouldn't have done the stuff that would have led to October 7th.

00:05:10.300 Fine, but that's not really where we are.

00:05:14.300 That's not the reality of the situation.

00:05:15.800 No, the reality of the situation that you want to corner people on October 7th and you

00:05:19.560 forget what happened before.

00:05:20.300 No, no, no.

00:05:21.300 Basim, I'm not trying to corner anyone.

00:05:23.300 I'm saying...

00:05:24.300 You just asked me if I was the Prime Minister of Israel.

00:05:25.900 Yes.

00:05:26.900 If I was Netanyahu...

00:05:27.900 No, that's not right.

00:05:28.900 I would do that.

00:05:29.900 If I was Basim, I wouldn't have done the stuff that Netanyahu has done that would lead to

00:05:33.900 October 7th.

00:05:34.900 Fine.

00:05:35.900 What I'm trying to get at with you, I don't have an agenda.

00:05:37.900 I'm trying to understand from a normal person's perspective, who's not as informed as you

00:05:42.500 are, right?

00:05:43.500 I'm not as informed as you are, how to think about this issue because I'm telling you, this

00:05:47.400 is what a lot of people...

00:05:48.400 If I'm a normal person, how would I accept that like my family would be killed, injured,

00:05:52.400 and kidnapped every day before?

00:05:53.900 Everybody talks about the hostages, which is terrible, of course.

00:05:56.840 But do you know that there's 5,000 Palestinian hostages in Israeli places?

00:06:00.840 But we don't call them hostages.

00:06:01.900 They are prisoners because they were arrested by people in uniform, because they were put

00:06:08.900 in prison institutions.

00:06:09.900 So we don't call them...

00:06:10.900 But at the fact of the fact, they are hostages.

00:06:12.900 They're taken, they're kidnapped in the middle of the night from their families, and they're

00:06:16.400 put in the prison.

00:06:17.400 And half of those 5,000 people in prison, there is no accusation against them.

00:06:20.900 If these are not hostages, what are they?

00:06:22.900 We talk about trade, but we don't talk about the sexual violence that has been committed

00:06:26.900 against the Palestinian women for all of these years.

00:06:29.900 But we just take Israel word for it.

00:06:31.900 We don't talk about murder, and we don't talk about the murder daily.

00:06:34.900 Since October...

00:06:35.900 In one month after October 7th, in the West Bank, 40 children were killed.

00:06:39.900 If 40 children were killed here in London, the whole world will be like up there in arms.

00:06:43.900 But nobody cares because they are Palestinians, and their blood seems to be not as equal or

00:06:47.900 not as precious as Israelis.

00:06:49.900 I'm not talking about your opinion.

00:06:50.900 I'm talking about how the world is doing.

00:06:52.900 But what I'm trying to get at with you is...

00:06:55.900 You see, we're getting stuck in that same dynamic that people often have when they're having

00:07:00.900 this discussion, where the pro-Israel people have their points, and the pro-Palestine people

00:07:04.900 have their points.

00:07:05.900 Who's doing the killing, Mahabibi?

00:07:07.900 Who's doing the killing?

00:07:08.900 Well...

00:07:09.900 Who's doing the killing?

00:07:10.900 Who's stealing the land?

00:07:11.900 Who's pushing people out of their homes on every single day?

00:07:13.900 Who's putting another human beings in a concentration camp condition and bombing the shit out of

00:07:18.900 them for 50 years?

00:07:19.900 And then you come and talk to me about October 7th.

00:07:20.900 I'm just putting a very simple point to you, which I think is a fair point.

00:07:23.900 Which is?

00:07:24.900 Which is that to a normal person who's looking at the situation, they agree with you in that

00:07:30.900 what Israel is doing is atrocious and looks horrific, and nobody wants to...

00:07:35.900 I'm a father.

00:07:36.900 I don't want to see babies being bombed.

00:07:37.900 It's horrific.

00:07:38.900 And yet it happens.

00:07:39.900 And yet it happens.

00:07:40.900 And yet it continues to happen.

00:07:41.900 And it's horrible.

00:07:42.900 And yet my tax money and your tax money is...

00:07:44.900 You've got to let me finish the point.

00:07:45.900 Sorry.

00:07:46.900 You are acting as if I'm some kind of hostile interviewer, which I'm really not.

00:07:50.900 I want to get to the bottom of what you think.

00:07:52.900 But I'm trying to put the mainstream, ordinary, uninformed person's perspective to you, which

00:07:58.900 is where I'm coming from, right?

00:07:59.900 To try and unpack some of these arguments.

00:08:01.900 So, yes, the normal person is...

00:08:05.900 And I went to the pro-Palestine protests here in London several times and talked to people.

00:08:10.900 And that's what they all say.

00:08:11.900 You know what?

00:08:12.900 We're horrified about what we're seeing.

00:08:13.900 But you also have to be able to see that any country, any country...

00:08:19.900 You say any country that's treated like Gaza and the West Bank would react in this way.

00:08:24.900 Okay.

00:08:25.900 Let's accept that.

00:08:26.900 But I put it to you that any country that was attacked the way Israel was attacked would

00:08:29.900 also react in this way, right?

00:08:31.900 So, if I'm an ordinary person, I'm kind of...

00:08:33.900 I don't know what to think about these two things.

00:08:36.900 Is that a fair argument?

00:08:37.900 No.

00:08:38.900 Tell me why.

00:08:39.900 Why?

00:08:40.900 Because, again, you are talking about, like, if that happened to us on October 7th and

00:08:44.900 you forget...

00:08:45.900 You forget the atrocities that have been happening that led to October 7th.

00:08:48.900 I don't.

00:08:49.900 I don't forget.

00:08:50.900 Okay.

00:08:51.900 So, the thing is, you're really putting me in that same position.

00:08:53.900 How can we react?

00:08:54.900 It's like, look at what have you done before October 7th.

00:08:57.900 And let's say, for example, you reacted badly.

00:08:59.900 How long can Israel go in?

00:09:00.900 And then we go into the position of, like, what's the proportionate response?

00:09:04.900 We've been asking what's the proportionate response since the death toll in Gaza with

00:09:08.900 3,000.

00:09:09.900 Now it's 33,000.

00:09:11.900 The thing is, there's no number that's enough.

00:09:14.900 If this could go on for a year and you'll have 300,000 Palestinians killed, and the world

00:09:20.900 was still asking, but what would have Israel done?

00:09:23.900 Because we don't ask these questions when...

00:09:26.900 But the question still has to be asked.

00:09:28.900 Because whatever the background, whatever happened before, the question still has to

00:09:33.900 be asked what Israel should have done on October 8th.

00:09:35.900 Exactly what they have done.

00:09:36.900 That's what they should have done.

00:09:38.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:39.900 Let's continue.

00:09:40.900 Kill Gaza, kill the people, and then after they're done, let's go to the West Bank and

00:09:43.900 kill 300,000.

00:09:44.900 Yes.

00:09:45.900 Yeah, but...

00:09:46.900 Because it's...

00:09:47.900 I'm sorry.

00:09:48.900 Because if this is the kind of conversation, like, what is Israel that have done?

00:09:51.900 They have...

00:09:52.900 Remember when Israel was saying, like, oh, it's not us that bombed the Ahli hospital.

00:09:55.900 It is the Hamas.

00:09:56.900 Yeah.

00:09:57.900 Since then, they bombed 36 hospitals.

00:09:59.900 Does that...

00:10:00.900 Is that okay?

00:10:01.900 Hold on.

00:10:02.900 You're acting as if I'm justifying anything.

00:10:05.900 I'm not.

00:10:06.900 I'm asking...

00:10:07.900 The question is very weird.

00:10:09.900 What could Israel have done as if...

00:10:10.900 No, what could...

00:10:11.900 As if there has no other choice.

00:10:12.900 No, no, no.

00:10:13.900 What could?

00:10:14.900 What...

00:10:15.900 October 7th has happened.

00:10:16.900 Right?

00:10:17.900 We...

00:10:18.900 It's happened.

00:10:19.900 What should Israel have done in your opinion?

00:10:21.900 That's all I'm asking.

00:10:22.900 Not this.

00:10:23.900 Okay.

00:10:24.900 But not this.

00:10:25.900 Okay.

00:10:26.900 What should they have done?

00:10:27.900 Not this.

00:10:28.900 That's a negative.

00:10:29.900 I'm asking what...

00:10:30.900 In a positive sense, what they should have done.

00:10:33.900 How should they have reacted?

00:10:36.900 My answer didn't change.

00:10:38.900 Not this.

00:10:40.900 But that isn't...

00:10:41.900 There are mergers and they are violating international law.

00:10:43.900 They are...

00:10:44.900 They are...

00:10:45.900 They are violating every single international piece of law, UN resolutions.

00:10:49.900 And then you're asking me, what else should they have done?

00:10:51.900 I don't understand the question.

00:10:52.900 No, no, no.

00:10:53.900 I'm not asking what else they should have done.

00:10:54.900 I'm saying, if a country is attacked in this way, how should it react?

00:10:59.900 Maybe they stopped doing what other people to do, so they will not be attacked in this way.

00:11:03.900 Okay.

00:11:04.900 So you think that the Prime Minister of Israel, in the situation he's in, when X number of

00:11:09.900 his own civilians have been slaughtered, is in a position to say, okay, we'll just,

00:11:13.900 you know, stop doing whatever we're doing.

00:11:14.900 We're not going to respond in any way.

00:11:16.900 You think that you should do that?

00:11:17.900 No, no, no.

00:11:18.900 Let him go and continue killing.

00:11:20.900 I mean, you're asking...

00:11:22.900 Your answer...

00:11:23.900 Your question is like...

00:11:24.900 It's like you're going in and you are nuking a whole country because you've been attacked.

00:11:28.900 It's like, what else would I do?

00:11:29.900 Hold on.

00:11:30.900 What else?

00:11:31.900 But this is...

00:11:32.900 I mean, look at history.

00:11:33.900 Like, would you say that what the Allies did in Germany in World War II?

00:11:39.900 Oh, the Dresden conversation.

00:11:40.900 It's not the Dresden conversation.

00:11:41.900 We dropped 50 Hiroshima's a month on Germany for a year and a half.

00:11:44.900 Yes, yes.

00:11:45.900 And that's good.

00:11:46.900 Who said it's good?

00:11:47.900 This is the thing.

00:11:48.900 It's like...

00:11:49.900 Because this is the same talking points of Israel.

00:11:51.900 Look what the Allies did in Dresden.

00:11:53.900 What did...

00:11:54.900 It's just...

00:11:55.900 The fact that something horrific that happened in the past does not justify what you're

00:11:58.900 doing in the future.

00:11:59.900 Now...

00:12:00.900 I'm not saying that something horrific happened in the past justifies what we're doing in

00:12:03.900 the future.

00:12:04.900 And by the way, I'm surprised about the way this conversation is going.

00:12:07.900 Because before we started, you were like, I'm a big fan of you guys.

00:12:09.900 And I really am keen to have an honest conversation.

00:12:11.900 Because the question is very infuriating.

00:12:13.900 Why?

00:12:14.900 The question when you ask people, if you're in an Israel position, what you should have done.

00:12:18.900 Yeah.

00:12:19.900 Again, you are asking me to quantify the reaction of the atrocity that's been happening all through.

00:12:24.900 And what else...

00:12:25.900 No.

00:12:26.900 Like, if your only choice is killing children and killing unarmed civilians, and they say,

00:12:31.900 show me one war, one war, where 80% of a place were destroyed, 50% of the victims were

00:12:37.900 children, and 100% of the population were displaced.

00:12:39.900 And then you tell me you don't have any other choice?

00:12:41.900 I didn't say any of those things.

00:12:43.900 All I'm saying to you is, there is a reality of where we are, right?

00:12:47.900 And whether you like it or not, or whether I like it or not, I don't like it, you don't

00:12:51.900 like it, right?

00:12:52.900 But it's not going to get solved by pretending that Israel is in a position.

00:12:56.900 And how could it be solved?

00:12:57.900 I have no idea.

00:12:58.900 That's why I'm asking you.

00:12:59.900 Okay, good.

00:13:00.900 But you say, not like this, and you don't give a positive.

00:13:02.900 Well, I have no idea either.

00:13:03.900 But what is happening, Israel is a rogue...

00:13:05.900 That's a fair answer.

00:13:06.900 That's a fair answer.

00:13:07.900 Israel is a war criminal.

00:13:10.900 Okay.

00:13:11.900 And it's been getting away with murder and genocide for years.

00:13:14.900 And the international community and international world is letting it get away with murder

00:13:20.900 and genocide every single day.

00:13:22.900 And then we are left with, sorry to say, a useless question of like, what's the proportions

00:13:28.900 response?

00:13:29.900 What else can I do if it's your country?

00:13:30.900 What have you done?

00:13:31.900 I didn't ask...

00:13:32.900 No, you asked if you are Netanyahu, what would you have done?

00:13:35.900 And I would tell you, if I was Netanyahu, and the whole world is letting me do whatever

00:13:39.900 I would do it.

00:13:40.900 I didn't say if you're Netanyahu.

00:13:41.900 I said if you're the Prime Minister of Israel.

00:13:42.900 I wouldn't have done the stuff that had led to October 7th.

00:13:44.900 Because my sense is you're a very different person to Benjamin Netanyahu.

00:13:47.900 Well, if I am the Prime Minister of Israel, I wouldn't have done the stuff that would

00:13:50.900 have led to October 7th.

00:13:51.900 I totally accept that.

00:13:52.900 But my question...

00:13:53.900 If you were the President of the United States, if you were Tony Blair, would you go to invade

00:13:58.900 Iraq because of...

00:13:59.900 Absolutely not.

00:14:00.900 Exactly.

00:14:01.900 I was on the streets protesting against them.

00:14:02.900 Exactly.

00:14:03.900 And against...

00:14:04.900 I didn't support the war in Afghanistan.

00:14:05.900 Exactly.

00:14:06.900 I didn't support the war in Iraq.

00:14:07.900 But 9-11.

00:14:08.900 If you were in America, how could you not invade Iraq?

00:14:11.900 Because it had nothing to do with 9-11.

00:14:13.900 Exactly.

00:14:14.900 That's exactly...

00:14:15.900 That's exactly the answer for your question.

00:14:17.900 Yes.

00:14:18.900 Except Hamas, which controls Gaza, had everything to do with October 7th.

00:14:22.900 And what about the killings happening in the West Bank as we speak?

00:14:24.900 Completely wrong.

00:14:25.900 Mm-hmm.

00:14:27.900 So...

00:14:28.900 So why is he doing it?

00:14:29.900 I think the reason we're having this conversation as well is you think I'm arguing with you.

00:14:33.900 No, I'm really not.

00:14:34.900 My answer is not directed to you.

00:14:36.900 It's directed to the narrative.

00:14:37.900 But you're speaking to me.

00:14:38.900 So let's speak to me, right?

00:14:39.900 Okay.

00:14:40.900 So your answer, I take it, and correct me if I'm wrong,

00:14:42.900 to my question of what's the positive way forward is you don't know,

00:14:46.900 because it's an impossible situation to resolve.

00:14:49.900 Because no...

00:14:50.900 Other than Israel should stop what it's doing.

00:14:51.900 No, because it's useless.

00:14:52.900 I have to say it's useless.

00:14:53.900 It's useless.

00:14:54.900 Because I have lost hope.

00:14:56.900 Hmm.

00:14:57.900 That's a good answer.

00:14:58.900 Let's talk about that.

00:14:59.900 I have lost hope.

00:15:00.900 Let's talk about that.

00:15:01.900 Because you have a country that's getting away with killing children on camera in front of everybody.

00:15:07.900 And everybody is like, hmm, too bad.

00:15:10.900 Too bad.

00:15:11.900 I don't think anyone's like that.

00:15:12.900 Really?

00:15:13.900 Have you watched Kirby, the spokesman of the White House?

00:15:16.900 We say like, we've seen Israel killing people.

00:15:18.900 It's like...

00:15:19.900 Well, they're investigating...

00:15:20.900 It doesn't speak for me.

00:15:21.900 I'm not an addict.

00:15:22.900 This is horrific.

00:15:23.900 But me and you and Francis, we're not the people in charge.

00:15:26.900 The people in charge, the people in power, the people who are holding the strings,

00:15:29.900 the people who are really making things happen in the world, don't care.

00:15:32.900 I don't think that's true either.

00:15:33.900 They don't care.

00:15:34.900 I think they care.

00:15:35.900 They just don't know what to do.

00:15:36.900 Like you and me.

00:15:37.900 No, no.

00:15:38.900 They don't care.

00:15:39.900 They look at Palestinians as lesser group of people.

00:15:40.900 That it's okay to kill as many of them as possible.

00:15:42.900 There is not a single country in the world.

00:15:44.900 You talk about Iraq.

00:15:45.900 You're talking about...

00:15:46.900 There is not a single modern warfare or old warfare where the kind of casualties we've

00:15:51.900 seen happening on daily basis, in front of everybody, it's happening and nobody's doing

00:15:55.900 anything about it.

00:15:56.900 So that's why I lose hope.

00:15:57.900 Like the thing is, Israel, okay, what will be the number that will make you say, okay,

00:16:02.900 that's enough?

00:16:03.900 It's not a bad number.

00:16:04.900 A hundred...

00:16:05.900 Look, we killed half a million civilians in Germany because we felt that that was the

00:16:09.900 only way to end the war.

00:16:10.900 Again, that's a bad example.

00:16:11.900 And we shouldn't do it because we evolved.

00:16:13.900 As humans, we can't say we enslaved like millions of black people and that's okay.

00:16:18.900 But that's a different example.

00:16:19.900 If we stick with the Germany example, we did have to do that.

00:16:22.900 No, you didn't have to.

00:16:23.900 Yeah, we did.

00:16:24.900 Did you have to...

00:16:25.900 It was the only way to destroy...

00:16:26.900 Did you have to rape two million women?

00:16:27.900 Of course not.

00:16:28.900 But that's a different thing.

00:16:29.900 Why?

00:16:30.900 Because destroying infrastructure like factories and railways and...

00:16:36.900 Did we need to drop two atomic bombs?

00:16:38.900 In my opinion, yes.

00:16:40.900 In my opinion, yes.

00:16:41.900 So basically, in order to end the war...

00:16:43.900 That saved lives.

00:16:44.900 In order...

00:16:45.900 That saved probably hundreds of thousands of lives.

00:16:47.900 Absolutely.

00:16:48.900 It did.

00:16:49.900 Absolutely.

00:16:50.900 Because Japan, even after the bombs were dropped, the Japanese military tried to stage

00:16:53.900 a coup because the emperor wanted to surrender.

00:16:55.900 They were going to fight to the death.

00:16:57.900 Invading Japan would have cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

00:16:59.900 So this kind of argument justifies whatever damage we do to other human beings because...

00:17:03.900 No, not at all.

00:17:04.900 Not at all.

00:17:05.900 So basically, killing 30,000 Palestinians will save more lives.

00:17:08.900 No, I don't...

00:17:09.900 I didn't say that.

00:17:10.900 I didn't say that.

00:17:11.900 But that's the argument.

00:17:12.900 I didn't say that.

00:17:13.900 No.

00:17:14.900 You said, what number is going to be where we say enough?

00:17:17.900 As if we reach a certain civilian casualty and then we're like, stop.

00:17:21.900 I'll give you the answer.

00:17:22.900 There's no number.

00:17:23.900 Correct.

00:17:24.900 If a civilian Palestinian killed in one day, people will not care.

00:17:27.900 Probably.

00:17:28.900 Because people stop caring about those people.

00:17:29.900 I don't.

00:17:30.900 Because we were told that those people are animals.

00:17:32.900 They're terrorists.

00:17:33.900 They're Hamas or Hamas sympathizers or Hamas voters.

00:17:36.900 And they should be wiped out.

00:17:37.900 I'm not talking about you, Wallah.

00:17:38.900 I'm not talking about you.

00:17:39.900 I'm just...

00:17:40.900 Why don't you talk to me?

00:17:41.900 I'm...

00:17:42.900 No, no, no.

00:17:43.900 I'm talking to you as people...

00:17:44.900 But let's talk about my opinions of what I'm putting to you, right?

00:17:47.900 Okay.

00:17:48.900 I don't think Palestinians are animals.

00:17:49.900 I don't think they're bad people or anything like that.

00:17:52.900 You're talking about the situation as it exists.

00:17:54.900 And yet you react differently for the death of Palestinians, for the death of Israelis because...

00:17:58.900 Do I?

00:17:59.900 Yeah, you do.

00:18:00.900 How so?

00:18:01.900 Because in October 7th, which is our... seems to be our starting point...

00:18:05.900 It's not.

00:18:06.900 1,139 Israelis were killed and I don't know 170...

00:18:10.900 And I said that's wrong.

00:18:11.900 Yeah, of course, of course.

00:18:12.900 But then you're asking if I was the prime minister, what I should have done.

00:18:18.900 But you never ask yourself, if I was Palestinian, what have I ever done?

00:18:23.900 Because here's the thing...

00:18:24.900 Sorry, ask that question again.

00:18:25.900 If I was Palestinian...

00:18:26.900 If you were Palestinian, how could I react to that daily atrocities to me?

00:18:29.900 Don't you...

00:18:30.900 But I already said, for the sake of argument, for the sake of argument, let's accept that

00:18:34.900 October 7th is a legitimate uprising.

00:18:36.900 I'm not saying it's illegitimate.

00:18:37.900 I know you...

00:18:38.900 I'm not saying...

00:18:39.900 I know you're not.

00:18:40.900 If you're a Palestinian and you have all of your family...

00:18:41.900 Do you know what for the sake of argument means?

00:18:43.900 Yes.

00:18:44.900 We're exploring the idea...

00:18:45.900 So if you're the sake of argument, if you're a Palestinian, in the position of like all

00:18:48.900 of your family were killed, all of your...

00:18:50.900 I'd be on the front line.

00:18:51.900 Okay.

00:18:52.900 I wouldn't be killing civilians.

00:18:53.900 You wouldn't?

00:18:54.900 No.

00:18:55.900 No.

00:18:56.900 But if you were a prime minister of Israel, you would kill civilians.

00:18:58.900 I didn't say anything about what I would do if the prime minister of Israel.

00:19:00.900 Okay.

00:19:01.900 Right.

00:19:02.900 What I'm saying is if I was someone in Gaza whose family had been killed, I'd be very angry,

00:19:06.900 obviously.

00:19:07.900 I'd probably be angry at them.

00:19:08.900 But you would have the civility not to kill civilians.

00:19:10.900 Yeah.

00:19:11.900 Yeah.

00:19:12.900 But if you have a prime minister, I will not...

00:19:14.900 Why would I kill women and children?

00:19:15.900 But if I'm the prime minister of Israel, I will be justified to act with no civility

00:19:19.900 Did I say that?

00:19:20.900 No, but I'm saying...

00:19:21.900 But why are you arguing with other people who are not here?

00:19:23.900 No, no.

00:19:24.900 But the argument is crazy.

00:19:25.900 Just talk to me.

00:19:26.900 You're here with me.

00:19:27.900 I know, but the argument is crazy.

00:19:28.900 Why?

00:19:29.900 We are trying to find justification or other ways for Israel to react differently.

00:19:33.900 No.

00:19:34.900 As if it is that's the only way.

00:19:36.900 Can I just say...

00:19:37.900 Let me just finish.

00:19:38.900 When I tell you not this, you tell me, so what?

00:19:41.900 As if I have to come up with a solution for the murderous prime minister who's been killing

00:19:46.900 people for the past six months.

00:19:47.900 Passive.

00:19:48.900 No.

00:19:49.900 No, no, no.

00:19:50.900 Look, you're interested in peace, right?

00:19:53.900 Is that fair to say?

00:19:54.900 Mm-hmm.

00:19:55.900 You want the killing to stop.

00:19:56.900 Mm-hmm.

00:19:57.900 So do I.

00:19:58.900 So do most people.

00:19:59.900 And that's what I said to you at the beginning.

00:20:01.900 People want the killing to stop.

00:20:02.900 And they're trying to work out at the same...

00:20:05.900 In a very difficult...

00:20:06.900 I mean, this is...

00:20:07.900 There's a reason it's been going on for as long as it's been going on.

00:20:09.900 It's complicated and it's difficult.

00:20:10.900 No, it's not complicated.

00:20:11.900 It's not so complicated.

00:20:12.900 Just let me finish.

00:20:13.900 It's a group of people who took up other people and they continue killing them.

00:20:15.900 It's not that complicated.

00:20:16.900 It's very obvious.

00:20:17.900 Well, if it was that simple, it would have been resolved by now.

00:20:20.900 No, it will not be resolved because people who are evil have the power and you cannot do anything in order to change that.

00:20:26.900 I mean, they are killing you in your face and you're killing people.

00:20:30.900 You try.

00:20:31.900 You try.

00:20:32.900 Can I just say, firstly, this reminds me of my childhood.

00:20:35.900 So thank you, guys.

00:20:36.900 Who's mommy and who's daddy?

00:20:38.900 That's the question.

00:20:39.900 Yeah.

00:20:40.900 I mean, well, I don't see gender.

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00:21:14.900 Having said that, I think it's very important for people to understand, because obviously passions are very high when it comes to this subject.

00:21:23.900 What is it like for the ordinary Palestinian before October 7th?

00:21:30.900 What was it like?

00:21:31.900 What was it like?

00:21:32.900 So just explain, what is it like to live in that area?

00:21:37.900 What rights do they have?

00:21:38.900 What rights are they being denied?

00:21:40.900 Et cetera.

00:21:41.900 Because I think people need to understand.

00:21:43.900 So there's this kind of like image that, oh, we disengage from Gaza.

00:21:47.900 We left you guys to do whatever you want.

00:21:48.900 But actually you disengage and then you put a siege.

00:21:50.900 There was no access to air, sea and land.

00:21:54.900 Everything has to go through something.

00:21:55.900 There have been actually a time where Palestinians were put on a calorie count.

00:21:59.900 So the kind of food that was admitted, the kind of...

00:22:02.900 Bassem, can I just ask you a question?

00:22:03.900 I know this is very passionate to you.

00:22:05.900 If you could just slow down slightly because people...

00:22:07.900 I'm sorry.

00:22:08.900 Yeah.

00:22:09.900 So basically you're...

00:22:10.900 I know that they've been used a lot like an open air concentration camp or prison.

00:22:14.900 Two million people lived in the most concentrated, more dense area in the world.

00:22:17.900 And you have no rights.

00:22:18.900 You have no rights to travel.

00:22:20.900 Everything has to go through another authority that controls your food, your electricity, your

00:22:24.900 water.

00:22:25.900 Some parts of Gaza you're only on two hours a day to get water.

00:22:28.900 I mean, you can go on and on and on.

00:22:29.900 There's just like massive books written.

00:22:33.900 If you're living in the West Bank, your land is being taken away from you, being eaten into

00:22:38.900 your land every day.

00:22:39.900 Your house could be just like...

00:22:41.900 Settlers can go and take your land and kick you out.

00:22:45.900 To go through like a one kilometer distance, you have to go to like seven or eight checkpoints.

00:22:53.900 As we speak right now, there's two units in Hebron.

00:22:56.900 And this is something called Yehuda Shoal, who is the founder of Breaking the Silence.

00:23:02.900 He's an ex-IDF soldier.

00:23:03.900 So like as we speak right now, there's two units on an eight-hour shift in Hebron that

00:23:09.900 their only mission is to maintain the presence or make their presence felt, which they can

00:23:15.900 go into your house, a house that intelligence tells you that there's no threat, goes in,

00:23:20.900 separate men and women, ruffle the feather, ruffle everything, break everything, go from house

00:23:25.900 to house.

00:23:26.900 This is like the daily life of Palestinians.

00:23:28.900 They have no humanity.

00:23:29.900 They have no rights.

00:23:30.900 Even if you are in the West Bank, I'm not even talking about Gaza, you are not allowed

00:23:35.900 as a Palestinian to have any fertile land in Area C, which is all of the fertile land.

00:23:40.900 You as a Palestinian, your water share is one-fifth or one-sixth of a settler.

00:23:45.900 You're not allowed to dig for wells.

00:23:47.900 You're not allowed to dig for water.

00:23:48.900 You're not allowed to actually...

00:23:50.900 Even if you...

00:23:51.900 It's a very inhumane way, and it's been going like this for 75 years.

00:23:56.900 And nobody's doing anything about it.

00:23:58.900 So at a certain point, and you as a Palestinian, you can...

00:24:04.900 IDF soldier can come in, take you, put you in prison, put you on administrative detention

00:24:09.900 for months and even years.

00:24:11.900 There's some that have been in jail for 10, 15 years with absolutely no accusation.

00:24:15.900 Israel is the only country in the world that tries children in front of military court

00:24:20.900 with 99.7% conviction rate.

00:24:22.900 There's nothing...

00:24:23.900 That never happens anywhere.

00:24:24.900 So that is the...

00:24:25.900 That is even...

00:24:26.900 I didn't even scratch the surface.

00:24:28.900 And when you do that on daily basis for 75 years, at a certain point, people will crack.

00:24:34.900 And people will throw rocks.

00:24:35.900 If you throw rocks, and you're a child, your limbs are broken.

00:24:39.900 If you are a Palestinian and you take a dagger and want to fight back, you'll be, of course,

00:24:46.900 killed and you'll be labeled as a terrorist.

00:24:49.900 But what happens is that they are responding to the daily terrorist that has been happening

00:24:52.900 for years.

00:24:53.900 And nobody is caring because we have already decided that those group of people do not

00:24:58.900 have the right of equal living or equal rights.

00:25:00.900 And that's very distressing.

00:25:02.900 I'm...

00:25:03.900 I'm not at all...

00:25:05.900 Like, I don't like Hamas, by the way.

00:25:08.900 I don't like the whole idea about Islamization of the conflict because I think that's the worst

00:25:13.900 thing that, like, putting religionists become Islam against Judaism that's wrong.

00:25:17.900 Okay, great.

00:25:18.900 Absolutely.

00:25:19.900 Because Palestinians also, there's a lot of Christians, and those Christians are having

00:25:22.900 also their rights are taken away.

00:25:23.900 Yeah.

00:25:24.900 Even if you're a Christian from England and you go there, people will spit on you from

00:25:27.900 the Jewish side because they think, like, you know, Christians are, like, are lesser than

00:25:32.900 them.

00:25:33.900 So it's not just like a Muslim against Judaism thing, right?

00:25:36.900 Yeah.

00:25:37.900 So we have all of these rights taken away as human beings.

00:25:39.900 And at a certain point, you will rise.

00:25:40.900 At a certain point, and I talk about this about, like, it's so easy killing and oppressing

00:25:46.900 people.

00:25:47.900 The remote has become so easy.

00:25:49.900 Like, you're sitting behind a screen with your remote and you're flying a drone and you

00:25:54.900 kill them.

00:25:55.900 So this kind of remote killing, we became so, you know, at a certain point, we had to

00:26:03.900 have a sword and I have to put all of my force to drive into your body, right?

00:26:07.900 And now it's like, and a whole block is gone.

00:26:11.900 And I make this example in many other podcasts.

00:26:14.900 I say, if I go and take a knife and I kill you, I'm a terrorist.

00:26:17.900 But if I'm sitting in my $64 million F-16, pushing a button, dropping an eight to 84, $16,000

00:26:25.900 bomb on a whole block, decimating you, that's war.

00:26:28.900 Yeah.

00:26:29.900 If I go in and I kidnap you, that's terrorism, but I go in with my units and I kidnap a hundred

00:26:34.900 people per day and put them in my prisons and have legal background because of my course

00:26:41.900 helped me and put me in prison.

00:26:43.900 That's not kidnapping.

00:26:44.900 That's imprisonment.

00:26:45.900 I'm really glad you made the point about Islam and Judaism.

00:26:48.900 I have family who come from the Middle East.

00:26:50.900 My grandfather was Lebanese.

00:26:52.900 He was Lebanese Christian.

00:26:53.900 And this conflict is much more complex than people who boil it down to Islam versus Judaism.

00:27:01.900 It's quite a facile way of explaining what is actually a very serious, complicated conflict.

00:27:07.900 So that is the situation for the average Palestinian.

00:27:10.900 And as we've said, we've only barely scratched the surface.

00:27:13.900 Now, what role does the government in Gaza play, something like Hamas?

00:27:19.900 How much control do they have?

00:27:22.900 How do they rule that particular area?

00:27:25.900 Is it a democracy?

00:27:26.900 All of these things.

00:27:27.900 No, it's not.

00:27:28.900 I mean, this is like a group of people who are popular.

00:27:32.900 By the way, I apologize if my reaction was a little bit over the top.

00:27:36.900 No, but Bassem, just on that.

00:27:38.900 The only thing I hope we can talk better on is I'm really trying to understand your perspective.

00:27:45.900 I'm not trying to drive talking points or anything like that.

00:27:48.900 So maybe when we talk more later, I hope we can do it in that spirit.

00:27:52.900 That's all.

00:27:53.900 You don't need to apologize.

00:27:54.900 No, no.

00:27:55.900 But I think the reason I reacted, I have to understand, because I've been hearing these talking points.

00:27:59.900 What else can we do?

00:28:00.900 It's like, guys, not this, not this.

00:28:01.900 But they're not talking points from me.

00:28:02.900 And I have more questions for you.

00:28:04.900 But here's the thing.

00:28:05.900 I mean, I don't want to go to the history over there.

00:28:08.900 Of course, of course.

00:28:09.900 But when this animation happened, there was elections.

00:28:12.900 It was a free election.

00:28:13.900 Hamas took 53% of the vote, not even the vast majority.

00:28:18.900 When that happened, there was like a boycott.

00:28:20.900 And then Israel put them under siege without any bullet being shot.

00:28:24.900 And the story is, the story that has been put into people's mind, we disengage.

00:28:29.900 They elected Hamas.

00:28:31.900 They killed Fatah, the other Palestinian authority.

00:28:35.900 And they started throwing rocks at us.

00:28:37.900 That did not happen.

00:28:38.900 There was like a whole like 18 months between the election and the stoppage of ceasefire.

00:28:43.900 And in that area, Israel went in and killed the head of the security forces in Palestine.

00:28:48.900 So Hamas retaliated and kidnapped Jalaad Shalit.

00:28:52.900 And then there was like no more ceasefire.

00:28:54.900 And then Israel attacked Gaza.

00:28:57.900 So the whole idea about like, we let them go.

00:29:00.900 They voted Hamas and they tried attacking us.

00:29:04.900 That's not the truth.

00:29:05.900 Now, there is a local authority, which is Hamas, which is of course like they're trying to govern Gaza.

00:29:11.900 But how can you govern a place where you don't have any access to the outside world when you're under siege, right?

00:29:17.900 And yeah, and if you put people with their backs to the wall, they will have resistance.

00:29:23.900 And their resistance, you will not like it because it's resistance.

00:29:26.900 It could be about, you call it Islamic, you call it terrorist, you call it jihadi, you call it whatever.

00:29:31.900 If you, if a foreign country came in London today, came in England and occupied you.

00:29:38.900 We'd probably roll over, mate.

00:29:40.900 No, there were people that would be militarized and they will use religion.

00:29:44.900 And they will have Jesus and they will have the cross.

00:29:47.900 And because people, when people pushed into the wall, they would be radicalized.

00:29:51.900 Yes, of course.

00:29:52.900 Right.

00:29:53.900 So you cannot just push people into that situation.

00:29:56.900 And then we talk about Hamas, right?

00:29:58.900 The Netanyahu in 2019, there was a recording of him bragging about financing Hamas.

00:30:03.900 He was talking about that openly.

00:30:05.900 People talk about like how Palestinians were given many opportunities and they let it away.

00:30:09.900 And yet you have Netanyahu on record saying that he has personally sabotaged the Oslo Accords.

00:30:15.900 So you have all of these in front of you.

00:30:17.900 You have all of these people taking like, we're not going to have two-state solution.

00:30:20.900 Palestinians don't have the right to exist.

00:30:22.900 Palestinians don't have the right to have a state.

00:30:24.900 And then you're talking about the reaction and then you focus on that.

00:30:28.900 So every time you tell me Hamas, I will tell you Netanyahu.

00:30:30.900 Every time you tell me October 7th, I'll tell you what happened before.

00:30:33.900 Every time you tell me what, what should we do now?

00:30:35.900 It's like, I don't know because you have made this happen.

00:30:37.900 You know, like, remember you've marched against the war in Iraq.

00:30:41.900 How did that work for us?

00:30:42.900 How did that work for the, is the world saver?

00:30:45.900 After all of the trillions of dollars being sold to all of the British soldiers

00:30:48.900 and the American soldiers that were killed, all of the people that killed in Afghanistan.

00:30:51.900 Did that actually work?

00:30:53.900 Iraq didn't attack us is the difference.

00:30:55.900 You have to accept that it's a different conflict, right?

00:30:57.900 Absolutely.

00:30:58.900 But again, you went in and you made an excuse.

00:31:03.900 The WMDs that never existed, right?

00:31:06.900 Yeah.

00:31:07.900 And then you are now making other excuses.

00:31:09.900 And you're making other excuses to decimate that.

00:31:12.900 How do you mean?

00:31:13.900 Even if Hamas attacked you, it does not, it does not justify killing all of those people,

00:31:19.900 decimating a whole region, a whole city, a whole place.

00:31:23.900 I don't think anyone feels that that's...

00:31:25.900 Well, no, I'm sure there are some people who feel that.

00:31:27.900 But as I said, I think when we started the conversation, I think most people are horrified

00:31:32.900 at what's happening.

00:31:33.900 Yeah, but...

00:31:34.900 Rightly so.

00:31:35.900 There is a certain narrative that stayed in people's mind that made them justify what

00:31:39.900 happened.

00:31:40.900 First of all, the number of people that died on October 7th.

00:31:43.900 And yet nobody's talking about the Hannibal Directive and how the Israeli forces that were

00:31:47.900 actively involved in killing many of the hostages.

00:31:50.900 And it was...

00:31:51.900 And this is my problem about like how the media covers this.

00:31:55.900 Do you have Israeli channels and media like Artis and Israel Today and Channel 12 who talked

00:32:03.900 openly about the choice of the usage of the Hannibal Directive that have inflated the number

00:32:09.900 of casualties from the Israeli side because their own troops were bombing or shooting at the

00:32:15.900 caputs.

00:32:16.900 Right?

00:32:17.900 So what do you think...

00:32:18.900 Let me finish this.

00:32:19.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:20.900 And yet the Western media went with all of the killing that happened October 7th and nobody

00:32:26.900 talked about the Israeli reports.

00:32:28.900 You talk about like the gang rape and then the Israeli report that they capitated babies

00:32:32.900 and the Israeli reports like that didn't happen.

00:32:33.900 And yet the Western media did not even translate these reports.

00:32:36.900 And yet these stories were the reason that people accepted the massive killing of

00:32:41.900 Palestinians because like, oh, look at what happened.

00:32:43.900 They raped people.

00:32:44.900 They decapitated babies.

00:32:45.900 They killed all of those people.

00:32:47.900 But if you knew these information said, wait a minute, this is truly a disproportionate

00:32:52.900 response.

00:32:53.900 Yeah.

00:32:54.900 What all I'm asking...

00:32:55.900 All I was going to ask you is to flesh out what you think happened on October 7th.

00:32:59.900 Because when I went and spoke to protesters, there was a whole range of opinions.

00:33:04.900 Some people said it never happened.

00:33:06.900 Some people said...

00:33:07.900 No, no, no.

00:33:08.900 Of course it happened.

00:33:09.900 And then you were saying some details didn't happen.

00:33:11.900 So I can tell you...

00:33:12.900 How many people do you think were killed by...

00:33:14.900 According to the Israeli reports, the official Israeli reports, the papers that were submitted

00:33:19.900 even to International Court of Justice, 1,129 Israelis were killed.

00:33:24.900 1,129.

00:33:25.900 Okay.

00:33:26.900 Out of those, 735 were civilians.

00:33:30.900 And the rest were military and police.

00:33:33.900 Okay.

00:33:34.900 So 735 civilians.

00:33:35.900 Babies.

00:33:36.900 One baby were killed under the age of one year, which is Mila Cohen, 10-month-old.

00:33:41.900 No decapitation.

00:33:42.900 A total of 49 children that were killed under the age of 19.

00:33:47.900 49.

00:33:48.900 Not 40 decapitated babies.

00:33:49.900 There was no gang rape.

00:33:50.900 There was...

00:33:51.900 Of course there might be like sexual violence, but like the whole idea about systemic, that

00:33:54.900 did not happen.

00:33:55.900 Again, according to the Israeli papers that was submitted to the International Court.

00:34:00.900 So now we have the truth.

00:34:02.900 735 civilians.

00:34:05.900 I don't know, 170, 200.

00:34:07.900 I don't know how many people were kidnapped.

00:34:09.900 Now, if you look at these numbers now, does this justify 30,000 people killed?

00:34:13.900 No.

00:34:14.900 But you created like this shock value at the beginning.

00:34:17.900 Rape people.

00:34:18.900 Decapitated babies.

00:34:19.900 Yeah.

00:34:20.900 Okay.

00:34:21.900 Cutting people out of...

00:34:22.900 Cutting babies out of their wombs.

00:34:23.900 Okay.

00:34:24.900 That didn't happen.

00:34:25.900 Okay.

00:34:26.900 Well, I'm relieved it didn't happen because it sounded...

00:34:27.900 And again, that doesn't mean that what happened is good.

00:34:29.900 No, no.

00:34:30.900 It doesn't mean that what happened is acceptable.

00:34:31.900 I don't think you're saying.

00:34:32.900 But what I'm saying that when you go with the people with an outrageous story.

00:34:36.900 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:37.900 No, of course.

00:34:38.900 You are making...

00:34:39.900 You are priming people to accept what will happen next.

00:34:40.900 Interesting.

00:34:41.900 Let me just ask one point on this because you mentioned earlier, you know, what would

00:34:45.900 happen if London was invaded by a foreign country.

00:34:48.900 What would happen if London was invaded by the Irish?

00:34:52.900 The Irish have reasons to be angry with England, right?

00:34:55.900 And they had murdered 749, did you say?

00:34:59.900 They were innocent civilians and didn't decapitate but killed a baby.

00:35:04.900 You know, if you say people with their back against the wall are going to react, then how

00:35:08.900 are people going to react in that situation?

00:35:10.900 By the way, my example that I said about London.

00:35:12.900 Right.

00:35:13.900 What if like a foreign country come in and disseminate the country?

00:35:15.900 I would be here in London or England are actually the position of the Palestinians.

00:35:19.900 What I'm saying is, if you come in and you have your whole country like invaded and your

00:35:23.900 whole military is disseminated and you have nothing, you will have resistance forces that

00:35:27.900 will be radicalized.

00:35:28.900 I understand.

00:35:29.900 That was my use.

00:35:30.900 But my...

00:35:31.900 The problem is that if London was attacked now and London is still powerful and can retaliate,

00:35:35.900 correct?

00:35:36.900 Yes.

00:35:37.900 Yes.

00:35:38.900 Yeah.

00:35:39.900 So I guess what I'm saying is, if during the IRA and the troubles in Ireland, where we

00:35:42.900 did have terrorism in this country, they had launched an invasion into Northern England

00:35:47.900 and slaughtered 750, but actually it would have to be... what's the population of Israel?

00:35:52.900 About 10 million.

00:35:53.900 So it would have to be six times that.

00:35:54.900 So they slaughtered over 3,000 people, 3,500 people, innocent people, didn't decapitate

00:36:00.900 them.

00:36:01.900 Let's say there was no gang rape.

00:36:02.900 How do you think England would react?

00:36:04.900 Well, I don't know.

00:36:06.900 But the thing is, using these arguments, I think it's a distraction to what's happening

00:36:12.900 right now.

00:36:13.900 Because basically what we're saying, I think these are all ways to distract the conversation

00:36:19.900 about like, let's talk about what England would say and let's forget the killing that's

00:36:22.900 happening on the...

00:36:23.900 No, no, no, no, no.

00:36:24.900 It's precisely because I care about the killing of innocent people now that I think we have

00:36:28.900 a responsibility to try and think about how these intertwined and intertangled mutual

00:36:36.900 claims of violence and whatever get untangled.

00:36:39.900 That's what I'm saying, right?

00:36:40.900 So I think the reality of why we're having this argument is, I'm interested in trying

00:36:46.900 to find out how this gets sorted out.

00:36:49.900 But I will answer your question about what if the IRA or whatever, England comes in and

00:36:52.900 kills 3,000 people.

00:36:53.900 Okay.

00:36:54.900 All right.

00:36:55.900 You're missing something.

00:36:56.900 Did actually England do to Ireland what Israelis did to Palestinians for 75 years?

00:37:00.900 Yes.

00:37:01.900 For 75 years.

00:37:02.900 Worse.

00:37:03.900 I would bet my life...

00:37:04.900 You should speak to some Irish people.

00:37:05.900 That England did not for 75 years kill 100,000 Irish people.

00:37:11.900 You should speak to some Irish people.

00:37:12.900 No, no.

00:37:13.900 In the 20th century.

00:37:14.900 Did it kill 100,000 people in the 20th century?

00:37:16.900 Probably not.

00:37:17.900 But that doesn't mean that the Irish people didn't have very strong reasons to feel that

00:37:24.900 some people felt that their terrorism was justified.

00:37:26.900 Of course, there would be lots of people that disagree.

00:37:29.900 Anyway, I guess the question in terms of moving forward, like how do you move forward, is what

00:37:34.900 would you like...

00:37:35.900 So let's say, again, for the sake of argument, Israel stops bombing, pulls out.

00:37:41.900 What would you like to see happen from there?

00:37:44.900 Because you talked about the plight of the people in Gaza and in the West Bank.

00:37:47.900 Let's say that all of that ends, and you talked about land, and this is one of the things I

00:37:52.900 always find interesting because obviously this is where there's such a big conflict

00:37:56.900 because two peoples are making a claim to the same land.

00:38:00.900 What should happen in terms of, like when you say give back the land, which bit of land?

00:38:06.900 Well, first of all, if the war stops today, the first thing we knew, do we need to have

00:38:12.900 Israeli officials being, you know, arrested and put forward to be tried for their war crimes?

00:38:18.900 Okay, let's say that happens.

00:38:19.900 Okay.

00:38:20.900 And then let's talk about the bigger picture.

00:38:21.900 Right.

00:38:22.900 Okay.

00:38:23.900 Let's talk about the bigger picture.

00:38:24.900 Like what's the...

00:38:25.900 In your opinion, what's the origin of the conflict?

00:38:29.900 Why is the problem?

00:38:30.900 This is why I said at the beginning, I'm asking questions from the point of view of an

00:38:34.900 uninformed person because I'm uninformed.

00:38:36.900 Okay.

00:38:37.900 So you're going to have to tell us what you think is the solution.

00:38:40.900 Well, a short term...

00:38:44.900 For example, on Ukraine, I think I know about it.

00:38:47.900 I'm from the area.

00:38:48.900 It's something I've spoken to a lot of very well knowledgeable people about.

00:38:51.900 I've read lots of books about it.

00:38:52.900 I can tell you what the solution is for Ukraine, the war in Ukraine.

00:38:56.900 And I said it on day one of the conflict.

00:38:58.900 I said how it would end, which is probably how it will end.

00:39:00.900 Right.

00:39:01.900 So what happened if Ukrainian refugees fled from Ukraine, came in here and claimed 20%

00:39:07.900 of the land of England, would you give it to them?

00:39:09.900 Probably not.

00:39:10.900 No.

00:39:11.900 That's exactly what happened after the Holocaust.

00:39:12.900 You have people coming from Europe.

00:39:14.900 Okay.

00:39:15.900 Coming to Palestine.

00:39:16.900 So how does this get solved now?

00:39:18.900 No, no.

00:39:19.900 To get solved, we need to talk about the origin.

00:39:21.900 You have people coming in.

00:39:22.900 1947, there was the partition.

00:39:24.900 Of course, the Palestinians are like, why are we giving 55% of our land to 30% of the

00:39:29.900 people that 20 years ago, they were not even in that country?

00:39:32.900 So of course, they said no.

00:39:33.900 So Israel said like, well, no, we're keeping it.

00:39:35.900 So they had the war.

00:39:36.900 And of course, Israel won.

00:39:37.900 And now Israel is like, well, you lost it.

00:39:39.900 You don't have any claim for it now.

00:39:41.900 And then after 1948, Israel took 78% of the land, leaving only 22% of the Palestinians.

00:39:47.900 When 1967, all of that was gone.

00:39:50.900 And now Israel comes like, well, we gave you these, these, these deals and he didn't say

00:39:54.900 it, but it was already a horrible deal.

00:39:56.900 So you cannot, you cannot tell me like, no, no, I'm just telling you like those Ukrainians

00:40:02.900 who wanted 20%, you didn't want to give them.

00:40:04.900 They ended up taking 70% of England.

00:40:06.900 And it's like, well, we, we told you we want only 20.

00:40:08.900 Now we're going to take 70.

00:40:10.900 But no, but I cannot accept it.

00:40:11.900 So the whole idea about clans, you have people and now it's become, and I have to be a,

00:40:18.900 I cannot really like kick out like 9 million Israelis who've been there.

00:40:21.900 That's why I'm asking.

00:40:22.900 It's already there.

00:40:23.900 Yeah.

00:40:24.900 It's already there.

00:40:25.900 But at a certain point, the Palestinian authority accepted 22%, which is the Oslo Accord.

00:40:30.900 And even that was sabotaged by Israel.

00:40:32.900 So you are, you are basically in a position where the Palestinians have to, they are pushed

00:40:38.900 into accepting really bad deals time after time, after time, after time again.

00:40:42.900 And even that deals are not even honored by the Israelis because they're on paper.

00:40:47.900 The Israeli should not, the Israeli should not take the West Bank.

00:40:51.900 And yet the West Bank is being disseminated into little Gazas.

00:40:54.900 They are being disseminated by the illegal settlements that has been deemed illegal,

00:40:58.900 but everybody, including the British government, including the American government.

00:41:02.900 And yet the Israelis are doing it anyways.

00:41:04.900 So basically you are put in a position where whatever solution we can come up with,

00:41:08.900 it's not going to happen.

00:41:09.900 Well, what you would like to do is go to the settlement that was agreed in Oslo Accords.

00:41:14.900 I mean, that's a starting point.

00:41:16.900 And at least you start from there.

00:41:17.900 What was, what did Israel and Gaza and the West Bank look like under those agreements?

00:41:23.900 Well, under those agreements, I guess, I'm, again, I'm not an expert, like the whole of Gaza,

00:41:27.900 and they're going to be like a land swap from inside Israel.

00:41:30.900 And then the West Bank should, there was like, even on the table, it was like,

00:41:34.900 the Palestinian will take 90% of the present West Bank,

00:41:37.900 which is now that's not even an example because the West Bank has been eaten up by all of the settlements.

00:41:41.900 So that was the Oslo Accords.

00:41:43.900 But then you have Netanyahu on record, it was like, oh, well, you know,

00:41:46.900 I could claim any part of the West Bank as a military facility and I can take it.

00:41:50.900 So I have effectively sabotaged the Oslo Accords.

00:41:54.900 But that's what you'd like to go to as a solution.

00:41:57.900 Again, but that is me.

00:41:59.900 And I'm not a Palestinian, but I say that's at least a starting point.

00:42:03.900 But you have bigger points that I have absolutely no idea how to solve.

00:42:07.900 Like, for example, the right of return.

00:42:09.900 You have to remember...

00:42:10.900 What do you mean by the right of return?

00:42:12.900 There are seven million Palestinians outside the land of Palestine

00:42:14.900 that have been pushed and have been refugees all over the place.

00:42:16.900 You have 2.5 million of them in Jordan.

00:42:19.900 You have half a million in Lebanon, half a million in Syria.

00:42:22.900 You have, like, all over the place.

00:42:24.900 Those people, their land is there.

00:42:26.900 And under no circumstances, Israel is accepting that those people that come back.

00:42:30.900 And I don't know how to solve it because Israel, of course,

00:42:33.900 will not accept the administration of 7 million Palestinians.

00:42:36.900 And because that will change the demographic.

00:42:40.900 So I'm telling you, you're asking me about the solution and I'm telling you,

00:42:44.900 I can tell you, I can come up with whatever solution, but it will not work.

00:42:47.900 Because there is...

00:42:49.900 Obama, in his book, he said,

00:42:51.900 the problem of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is that one part is so strong

00:42:55.900 and the other part have nothing.

00:42:57.900 One part have all of the support of the world and the other part has nothing.

00:43:01.900 So even in communication, if you have all of this power,

00:43:03.900 why would you give up any of the stuff that you have earned, right?

00:43:07.900 I pose no threat to you.

00:43:11.900 All of my power will not even leave a dent in yours.

00:43:19.900 So why would you give up anything?

00:43:21.900 Because I would suggest that the reason they would give up something, Basim,

00:43:25.900 is because it doesn't matter if you're winning a war.

00:43:29.900 You are still a population under war.

00:43:31.900 You are still suffering.

00:43:33.900 You are still under direct threat.

00:43:35.900 No country wants to be at war permanently.

00:43:39.900 So it is in the Israelis' interests, I would argue,

00:43:43.900 to come to some kind of equitable solution.

00:43:46.900 However, do you see what I'm saying?

00:43:48.900 I know, but this is the logic.

00:43:49.900 Yeah.

00:43:50.900 This is like how normal people talk.

00:43:52.900 There is a book by an Israeli author.

00:43:55.900 I can't remember.

00:43:56.900 He said like in...

00:43:58.900 I can't remember the book.

00:44:00.900 I'll remember.

00:44:01.900 It's an Israeli author and he talked about like,

00:44:04.900 actually, Israeli society know nothing but war.

00:44:06.900 For 75 years, war is the only thing that's been winning them.

00:44:10.900 Land, they are getting away with stuff that nobody is actually

00:44:13.900 pulling them accountable for.

00:44:15.900 So for them, it is winning.

00:44:17.900 It's just going into continuous conflict.

00:44:19.900 And if that has to come at the expense of some people feeling unsafe,

00:44:22.900 so be it.

00:44:23.900 But the fact is, you have...

00:44:25.900 Just like in a couple of two ways, totally unprovoked,

00:44:27.900 Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Syria.

00:44:30.900 That's an act of war.

00:44:32.900 That's an act of war.

00:44:33.900 They are dragging Iran into it for absolutely no reason.

00:44:38.900 They are dragging other people to war as if they are telling people,

00:44:40.900 fight me, fight me, fight me.

00:44:42.900 And I know it sounds ridiculous and sounds crazy,

00:44:45.900 but that's what's happening.

00:44:46.900 Give me another explanation for this.

00:44:48.900 I guess their explanation would be that Israel backed Hamas into attacking...

00:44:53.900 Iran.

00:44:54.900 Iran.

00:44:55.900 No, Iran.

00:44:56.900 Interesting slip of the tongue.

00:44:58.900 So you see, with that logic,

00:45:02.900 American embassies and British embassies all over the world are not saved

00:45:06.900 because they are backing Israel in all that war.

00:45:08.900 You see how that logic can go into destructive results?

00:45:13.900 No, but you said give me another explanation.

00:45:15.900 I know, but the explanation doesn't mean it makes any sense.

00:45:19.900 You understand?

00:45:20.900 I understand where you're coming from.

00:45:21.900 But that explanation is very destructive.

00:45:23.900 It's very...

00:45:24.900 It's very worrying.

00:45:25.900 Yeah.

00:45:26.900 Because now you're dragging...

00:45:27.900 So what else?

00:45:28.900 You're gonna go and hit China, Chinese embassies and Russian embassies?

00:45:33.900 You wanna drag people into war?

00:45:34.900 It's very dangerous.

00:45:36.900 It's very dangerous.

00:45:37.900 And the fact that you think like, oh, because I want peace for my people,

00:45:40.900 it doesn't seem to work for them.

00:45:42.900 Because look at the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

00:45:47.900 Not a single time that Israel gave a plan unless it's because of like they had to lose it for war.

00:45:53.900 1973, they gave back Sinai because the Egyptians crossed the canal and went into war.

00:46:00.900 The Oslo Accord, it happened because of the Intifada.

00:46:03.900 Then in 2006, it disengaging because they were having too many losses in their ranks.

00:46:08.900 The withdrawal from Lebanon because Hezbollah, it was like too many casualties from the Israelis.

00:46:15.900 Israelis don't understand anything other than the language of power.

00:46:18.900 And they have never given land out of peace and out of the goodness of their heart.

00:46:23.900 So they're always in a continuous conflict.

00:46:25.900 And they're pushing the world into that conflict.

00:46:27.900 And it is just like...

00:46:29.900 It is very disturbing.

00:46:31.900 But you say the Israelis.

00:46:34.900 For the Israelis, it's really important that we also separate the Israelis from the Israeli government.

00:46:40.900 Because there's a lot of people in Israel who disagree vehemently with Netanyahu and his actions and his policies.

00:46:47.900 This is a very interesting point because when you say this, why do I don't I hear that distinction when we talk about Gaza?

00:46:53.900 No, no, no. I'm not talking about you.

00:46:56.900 Bassem, you've got to talk to us.

00:46:58.900 I'm not talking about you.

00:46:59.900 I'm not talking about you.

00:47:00.900 Because this is very...

00:47:01.900 Because when you talk about Gaza...

00:47:02.900 We make the same distinction.

00:47:03.900 It's like, oh, because they have elected Hamas.

00:47:04.900 No, no.

00:47:05.900 I'm not talking about you.

00:47:06.900 We make the same distinction.

00:47:07.900 Again, I'm just...

00:47:08.900 For the viewers, I'm making this kind of thing.

00:47:10.900 Even though the majority of Palestinians support Hamas, there's still a massive difference between Palestinians and Hamas.

00:47:15.900 And even though the massive majority in Israel actually, they have Israelis preventing aid trucks from going into Gaza and they're happy about it.

00:47:28.900 You have Israelis in TikTok making fun of Palestinians killing.

00:47:32.900 You have Palestinians in the flag day openly telling Palestinians that they're going to be killed.

00:47:37.900 So, whatever.

00:47:38.900 Okay.

00:47:39.900 The Israeli government.

00:47:40.900 So, the Israeli government.

00:47:41.900 The Israeli government has been cooking for the war.

00:47:43.900 I think this is an important point, Bas, and I'll explain why.

00:47:47.900 There's people on the other side of the argument who would say pro-Palestine supporters.

00:47:52.900 And I've had arguments with them.

00:47:54.900 Oh, they're pro-Hamas.

00:47:55.900 You know, they're Islamic fundamentalists.

00:47:59.900 Look at them.

00:48:00.900 You can see these clips of people chanting for jihad and whatever else.

00:48:04.900 And I go, that is a very, very small percentage of the people.

00:48:09.900 I think what's really important to detoxify the conversation, Basim, is to say there are governments who are acting in this particular way.

00:48:18.900 There are supporters of those governments.

00:48:20.900 But that doesn't mean that necessarily all of the people in that area support the governments, all those actions.

00:48:27.900 Who has the power?

00:48:29.900 The government, of course.

00:48:31.900 I mean, all of these Palestinians and chanting, no matter how bad the chanting is, which I don't agree with.

00:48:36.900 Of course.

00:48:37.900 There are people in the street chanting, waving flags.

00:48:39.900 Yeah.

00:48:40.900 None of them has weapons.

00:48:41.900 None of them goes in with a military arsenal that is supported by the biggest military arsenal in the world and they go in.

00:48:46.900 So the comparison doesn't make sense.

00:48:48.900 Right?

00:48:49.900 The comparison between someone who has all of the power, all of their arms, all of their weapons, and with just people shouting in the streets or writing comments on Facebook.

00:48:55.900 So that's one thing.

00:48:56.900 But anyways, I will go with you.

00:48:57.900 The Israeli government, the Israeli government throughout their years have always chosen forces, have always chosen military conflict, and they are not interested in peace.

00:49:05.900 As a matter of fact, they're talking openly about the end of days, which is something I want to talk about, which is something that actually bothers me.

00:49:12.900 I come from, I live in the United States now, and there is like a documentary on the internet called Praying for Armageddon.

00:49:17.900 It is the most disturbing documentary I've ever seen.

00:49:19.900 It's done by a Norwegian director, and it's on YouTube right now.

00:49:23.900 And they're talking about like how in the American government you have politicians, senators, and congresspeople talking openly about the end of days, about the rapture, about the second coming of Jesus.

00:49:33.900 And on the other side, you have the Israelis flying in five perfect red heifers, red cows, because on the 10th of April they're going to sacrifice one of their cows because that is actually going to be the signifying the building of the third temple.

00:49:46.900 And you know what that means.

00:49:48.900 If they're going to demolish the Al-Aqsa Mosque and build the third temple, that's going to be very detrimental to the world.

00:49:55.900 Now we have people asking for the second coming...

00:49:58.900 Can I just stop you? Because I didn't understand what you said there about the third temple. Could you just explain that so...

00:50:03.900 So the Israelis believe that the third temple should be built, because there were two temples that were destroyed.

00:50:08.900 One by the Babylonians and one by the Romans.

00:50:12.900 And now this is basically the third temple.

00:50:14.900 And they claim that the third temple is under the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is the mosque of the rock, or the dome of the rock, which is a holy site for the Muslims.

00:50:25.900 Okay, and where is this place?

00:50:26.900 In Jerusalem.

00:50:27.900 This is in Jerusalem, the holy city.

00:50:29.900 In Jerusalem.

00:50:30.900 Right, okay.

00:50:31.900 So basically they claim that they need to demolish the mosque and build the third temple.

00:50:36.900 And they have been in search for the red heifers, which is perfect cows, red cows.

00:50:43.900 I'm not making this up.

00:50:44.900 You can look it up.

00:50:45.900 There's something called the Temple Institute in Jerusalem and supported by the government.

00:50:49.900 And they have flown five perfect cows from Texas a year and a half ago for $500,000.

00:50:55.900 And now they are preparing them to being sacrificed when they turn three years old in the 10th of April.

00:51:01.900 Like, you can look it up.

00:51:02.900 It's there on the internet.

00:51:03.900 And they are going...

00:51:04.900 When that happens, they're going to use...

00:51:06.900 They're going to burn it, have the ashes, put it in the water, and they're going to...

00:51:09.900 Whoever take a bath with this water is a purified Jew, and they can build now the third temple.

00:51:15.900 Now, why am I saying all of this?

00:51:17.900 Because on the other side, you have people, someone like John Hagee, who is the founder of Christian United for Israel.

00:51:24.900 Each year, they have $7 billion annual budget to affect politicians in Congress in order to support Israel.

00:51:31.900 And John Hagee himself has paid $80 million for Israel.

00:51:35.900 Not, of course, his money.

00:51:36.900 That's his money for his congregation.

00:51:38.900 And all of that, they are talking about the second coming of Jesus, the rapture, the Armageddon.

00:51:44.900 And it is crazy because the Christians think that when the second coming of Jesus comes, all of the Jews will either be killed or converted.

00:51:52.900 And the Jews believe when the Messiah comes, everybody will be enslaved by the Jews.

00:51:56.900 And all of them is going for the Armageddon and the end of days.

00:51:59.900 And you know why is this so scary?

00:52:01.900 Because me, as a Muslim, I've been always told that my religion is violent.

00:52:04.900 You're talking about the end of days.

00:52:05.900 You're talking about jihadists.

00:52:06.900 You're talking about all of this crazy stuff.

00:52:08.900 And now, the modern world, the Western world is led by a superpower whose politicians believe in all of these biblical revelations of the end of days.

00:52:19.900 And it is scary.

00:52:21.900 Everyone should be worried about that.

00:52:23.900 I know that sounds like a conspiracy theories, but I'm not.

00:52:25.900 These are like people in government talk openly about this.

00:52:29.900 And you have now that they have all of this preparation of what's happening in like, I don't know, a week from now.

00:52:38.900 And people are talking actively about like pushing the water over the brink for an end of days war.

00:52:48.900 And it's very scary.

00:52:50.900 But it's not going to happen.

00:52:51.900 I mean, by the time this interview goes out, April 10th would have come and gone and we're still going to be here.

00:52:56.900 April 10th is not going to be the end.

00:52:57.900 It is going to be the beginning of events that have been talking about openly everywhere.

00:53:01.900 And I know that I sound like a conspiracy theorist right now.

00:53:03.900 But you have to watch these documentaries and you have to watch these politicians talking openly about that.

00:53:09.900 And it's not something to be taken lightly or be making fun of.

00:53:14.900 Because if you have people talking about openly, like, okay, remember when we were criticising ISIS and Qadr,

00:53:21.900 how they're bringing a religious scripture into politics?

00:53:25.900 Yeah, the theocracies, yeah.

00:53:26.900 And you have now Dithiniyahu talking openly about the Amalek.

00:53:30.900 And talking openly about the Amalek is the people that were there before in the Biblica

00:53:35.900 and they have all of the right to kill their children, their wives, everybody from the Amalek, it's fine, they're justified.

00:53:42.900 And when you use that in a political context, that is scary.

00:53:45.900 It's like having the president of Egypt or the king of Saudi Arabia or the king of Jordan talking ISIS rhetoric.

00:53:51.900 That's going to be scary, correct?

00:53:53.900 But now you have the leaders in Israel talking openly about this scary rhetoric and nobody is flinching.

00:54:00.900 Nobody is talking about anything.

00:54:01.900 Nobody is telling everybody that this is dangerous.

00:54:04.900 You understand what I mean?

00:54:05.900 Well, I find this a very depressing conversation because I it just makes me think that I know you disagree,

00:54:13.900 but I just makes me feel that this is really unsolvable because, you know, I talk to people in Israel or people who've been to Israel recently.

00:54:20.900 There's no appetite for a two state solution with people who used to be for a two state solution.

00:54:25.900 And in Gaza, I imagine there's no appetite for a two state solution either.

00:54:29.900 Right. And Hamas have said they'll do October 7th again.

00:54:32.900 So it just feels to me like it's just going to go on and on and it's going to get worse.

00:54:37.900 I know. But like you always have to think about who has the power, the one who has the power,

00:54:41.900 the one who has the power, the one who has the way out of it.

00:54:44.900 The power is a difficult thing in the modern world because also I feel like Israel is losing the PR war.

00:54:50.900 It's winning the war.

00:54:51.900 It's about time.

00:54:53.900 I'm sure you think that.

00:54:54.900 But what I'm saying is what you mean by power will change depending on the circumstances.

00:54:59.900 So Israel has the military power to dominate that situation.

00:55:04.900 But if the entire world pulls back its support for Israel, it will no longer have the power.

00:55:09.900 And so that's kind of, I think, where we are.

00:55:12.900 It's very difficult to tell ultimately how this is going to go.

00:55:15.900 But what I sense is certainly from this conversation is there's not a solution in sight.

00:55:23.900 Israel possesses more than military power.

00:55:27.900 Military power is just a byproduct of the real power that they have.

00:55:30.900 And I'm also talking now as an American citizen.

00:55:34.900 I'm someone who, like many Americans who, you know, have to deal with taxes, IRS.

00:55:39.900 We have to pay our taxes.

00:55:41.900 And when we see hundreds of millions of dollars that go out every year to Israel tax exempt through charity works

00:55:49.900 to help to build the illegal settlements that we just talked about.

00:55:52.900 Yeah.

00:55:53.900 We have to pay $200 million from tax exempt money.

00:55:56.900 That is power.

00:55:57.900 When you have Christian Zionists in American government talking openly about supporting Israel.

00:56:03.900 That is power.

00:56:04.900 And when most of those people are having very questionable motives,

00:56:09.900 you actually should worry about the Jews more than anything.

00:56:12.900 Because many of those people who support Israel, they hate the Jews.

00:56:16.900 They are openly anti-Semitic, but they support Israel.

00:56:19.900 You see that it's an oxymoron, correct?

00:56:21.900 Yes.

00:56:22.900 It's very weird.

00:56:23.900 Right?

00:56:24.900 Like for example, Robert Spencer, he is the founder of outright in America.

00:56:28.900 His people went in Jacksonville and said like, Jews will not replace us.

00:56:31.900 And yet he is applauding Israel for the ethnic cleansing of doing Israel.

00:56:35.900 And he said like Europe should do the same.

00:56:37.900 When you have someone like Elise Stefanik, who was a congresswoman or a senator or whatever,

00:56:45.900 she was very famous for grilling all of the Ivy League presidents about anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism.

00:56:50.900 And yet she openly support Eric Palladino, who said openly that Hitler is the kind of leader that we need nowadays.

00:56:58.900 You see the hypocrisy.

00:57:02.900 Most of those people who talk about like supporting Israel, they are anti-Semitic.

00:57:07.900 It is crazy.

00:57:08.900 And it doesn't make any sense.

00:57:11.900 And the fact basically, you've seen people who are pushing for like a military force

00:57:17.900 because that serves what they think about what the end of days will be about like the second coming of Israel.

00:57:25.900 We need to support Israel.

00:57:26.900 But they don't care about the Jews.

00:57:28.900 You see how we are being ruled and pushed by crazy people in power?

00:57:35.900 When I say people in power, it's not about military force.

00:57:38.900 It's much more than this.

00:57:40.900 You have something called the Friends of the IDF.

00:57:43.900 This is the biggest charity organization.

00:57:45.900 This is in America.

00:57:47.900 Each year, they raise somewhere between 60 and 100 million dollars for veterans of the IDF.

00:57:53.900 These are American people, American artists, American actors.

00:57:56.900 I wonder how much money is being given to American veterans.

00:58:01.900 This is the kind of support.

00:58:03.900 So the power is not really military.

00:58:05.900 The military is a byproduct of all of that.

00:58:07.900 But I would say, Basim, that these fundraising efforts are going to become more and more difficult the more that people see the suffering, the casualties, the misery that is created.

00:58:21.900 Because it becomes harder and harder to justify.

00:58:24.900 May I disagree with you?

00:58:25.900 Well, absolutely.

00:58:26.900 A lot of people do.

00:58:27.900 The last six months, it has been the highest donation that's ever been made by these operations working inside of America for Israel.

00:58:36.900 Each year, it's been doing like 50 to 60 million.

00:58:39.900 The IDF this year raised 100 million dollars.

00:58:42.900 Because they work on fear.

00:58:43.900 Because they don't speak to me and you.

00:58:45.900 They speak about the people who are concerned about that part of the place.

00:58:48.900 And they are actually believed that there is an existential threat.

00:58:51.900 So they raise more money.

00:58:52.900 Zaka, which is a rescue group from Israel.

00:58:55.900 These are the group that behind all of the decapitated babies.

00:58:58.900 They raised 50 million dollars out of fear-mongering.

00:59:01.900 So now they are raising more and more and more money.

00:59:04.900 So as an American, as someone who belongs to that country, I'm concerned about that kind of money.

00:59:09.900 I'll give you an example of like how power is not just military.

00:59:12.900 You have AIPAC.

00:59:13.900 Before 2021, they didn't involve in really paying people running for office.

00:59:18.900 They just worked with already elected officials.

00:59:20.900 After 2021, they have bragging about pushing people into American politics.

00:59:25.900 You have bragging about like the 40 Democrats winning in their primaries.

00:59:30.900 They are actually punishing people who don't support Israel by pushing.

00:59:35.900 They have put four million dollars in for the opponent of Andy Levin, who's a Jew running for a Michigan Congress seat,

00:59:44.900 just because he didn't support Israel.

00:59:45.900 And he's a Jew.

00:59:46.900 So this whole thing, power is much more than military.

00:59:49.900 It is the kind of support that they have no matter whatever they do.

00:59:53.900 All right, Bassem, it's been great.

00:59:55.900 I'm glad we managed to have a more constructive conversation as we went on.

00:59:59.900 And I'm sorry again for the...

01:00:00.900 You don't need to be sorry.

01:00:01.900 I really appreciate that we were able to work through that.

01:00:03.900 And actually, I think it's good for people to see that.

01:00:06.900 I think we all come to things with certain expectations and talking points

01:00:10.900 and what other people are going to say.

01:00:12.900 And by the way, you know, when the Ukraine war happened, I found it very personally difficult as well.

01:00:17.900 And I would go into conversations with that kind of attitude as well.

01:00:21.900 And so I understand it.

01:00:22.900 And I don't take it personally.

01:00:23.900 I'm glad you were on.

01:00:24.900 I'm very grateful you came on.

01:00:25.900 You're a busy guy.

01:00:26.900 We'll continue the conversation with questions from our supporters on Locals.

01:00:30.900 But before we do, we always ask the same question.

01:00:33.900 What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

01:00:36.900 The one thing that we should not be...

01:00:37.900 That we're not talking about.

01:00:38.900 Not that we shouldn't be talking about.

01:00:40.900 We're not processing.

01:00:41.900 We should be asking that.

01:00:42.900 Yeah, what shouldn't we be talking about?

01:00:44.900 What shouldn't we be talking about?

01:00:45.900 It's like a free hit.

01:00:46.900 Like what is the world not talking about that it should be?

01:00:49.900 Or what should we be talking about more that we're not?

01:00:52.900 Right now?

01:00:53.900 Yeah.

01:00:54.900 Ooh.

01:00:55.900 It's always in the background.

01:00:59.900 I think it's the source of all evil.

01:01:02.900 Money in politics.

01:01:04.900 I think that's the biggest thing.

01:01:06.900 That's the biggest title of Western democracy.

01:01:09.900 If you go out into...

01:01:11.900 I don't know how it is in England.

01:01:12.900 Maybe I feel it more in the United States.

01:01:14.900 But if you go out and you vote for all of those representatives

01:01:18.900 and then at the end of the day, they end up not following you,

01:01:21.900 the person who gave the vote, which is the crux of any Western democracy.

01:01:25.900 But they go after they follow the special interests, lobbies.

01:01:29.900 And that shapes their decision.

01:01:32.900 That's a big danger.

01:01:33.900 I didn't vote for pharmaceutical company over the military industry.

01:01:37.900 In fact, I didn't vote for the NRA.

01:01:38.900 I didn't vote for APAC.

01:01:39.900 I didn't vote for those people.

01:01:40.900 But yet my representatives is actually creating...

01:01:43.900 ...legislation that serve those people, not the voter.

01:01:46.900 That is the biggest thing that we should be talking about every single day.

01:01:49.900 Because if that is the promise of the Western world to the rest of the world,

01:01:53.900 which is democracy, this has been undermined by the money

01:01:56.900 that has been corrupting this kind of election operation, whatever it is.

01:02:01.900 Basim, the bells of Westminster Abbey are ringing to say enough.

01:02:05.900 So we will head on over to locals, head on over there, join us,

01:02:08.900 because we'll ask Basim your questions and we'll probably continue the debate.

01:02:13.900 It seems to me that Gaza itself, not the West Bank, but Gaza,

01:02:16.900 would be better served as an autonomous region of a larger power, i.e. Egypt.

01:02:20.900 Do you think that's an acceptable solution to the current crisis?

01:02:23.900 And if yes, do you think the Palestinian people would accept it?

01:02:26.900 A beautiful noise is coming to Toronto.

01:02:39.900 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more featuring all the songs you love,

01:02:40.900 a beautiful noise is coming to toronto the true story of a kid from brooklyn destined for something

01:02:46.880 more featuring all the songs you love including america forever in blue jeans and sweet caroline

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01:02:59.040 beautiful noise april 28th through june 7th 2026 the princess of wales theater get tickets at

TRIGGERnometry - April 14, 2024

Fiery Israel-Palestine Debate with Bassem Youssef

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