TRIGGERnometry - Francis Boulle on Classical Liberalism and the Dangers of Reality TV

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.240 I'm Constantine Kishan.

00:00:09.480 And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

00:00:16.000 At Trigonometry, you don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:00:20.420 Our brilliant guest this week is a comedian, podcaster, entrepreneur and one of the people behind Made in Chelsea.

00:00:26.260 Francis Bull, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:27.900 Hello.

00:00:28.680 It's good to have you here. You look suddenly like a rabbit in the headlights.

00:00:32.200 I'm trying to think what I'm an expert in.

00:00:35.500 Well, we're about to find out, aren't we?

00:00:37.600 Tell us a little bit about who you are, how are you, where you are, what's been your journey through life?

00:00:42.600 So my background is, I guess, in entrepreneurship.

00:00:47.540 I left Edinburgh, started a business,

00:00:49.920 and then went into development with a production company in London

00:00:57.100 to make a show which was focused around young entrepreneurs,

00:01:02.280 an aspirational show focused on young entrepreneurs in London.

00:01:05.320 Anyway, that turned out to be Made in Chelsea,

00:01:07.940 which was a very different show to what I saw.

00:01:12.040 So six months in, I realized I was on a reality TV show,

00:01:16.380 which was uh which was fun and uh was a a amazing experience and uh i i left you know a couple of

00:01:26.760 times we had a business down in west africa doing gold exploration and doing some conservation for

00:01:34.080 pangolins it was a critically endangered animal down in west well he's getting the virtue signaling

00:01:40.600 right

00:01:41.320 I just thought

00:01:42.600 I'd throw that in there

00:01:43.560 I'm such a good guy

00:01:44.880 I'm a good person

00:01:45.640 Are you a vegan?

00:01:46.540 Are you a vegan?

00:01:47.240 I'm not a vegan

00:01:47.960 I did try it for a bit

00:01:48.960 but then I just felt so weak

00:01:50.240 and like

00:01:50.780 and I felt like

00:01:52.260 I'd lost my mojo

00:01:53.280 I don't know

00:01:53.820 I

00:01:54.640 I

00:01:54.880 I didn't feel

00:01:56.460 you know

00:01:57.680 the

00:01:58.220 the sort of picture of health

00:01:59.860 that everyone said I would

00:02:00.800 when I

00:02:01.180 when I became a vegan

00:02:01.920 but you know

00:02:02.620 people want to do that

00:02:03.700 I think everyone's bodies

00:02:04.840 are different

00:02:05.480 and

00:02:06.000 and some people don't need

00:02:07.540 creatine

00:02:09.060 and protein

00:02:10.960 You've got to eat meat.

00:02:12.340 Anyway, so you did some work out in Africa.

00:02:16.300 Sorry, I interrupted you.

00:02:17.420 Keep going.

00:02:18.040 Yeah, so I had a mining exploration business out there in Ghana.

00:02:24.280 My background is in mining and precious metals, gold trading.

00:02:28.900 And then after that, the sort of price of gold crashed when I was out there.

00:02:34.960 And I came back here and started a cider business called Yoshi Cider,

00:02:39.120 which is a Japan-inspired premium cider made with Fuji apples

00:02:46.420 and various Japanese flavor combinations, Sakura Cherry Blossom, Lychee,

00:02:56.120 Original Recipe, which is the original Fuji apple.

00:02:58.240 I've got like eight other flavors which I'm bringing out in the next couple of years.

00:03:02.640 And you're a comedian on podcasts as well.

00:03:04.740 Yes.

00:03:05.320 Yeah, well, actually, I did my first gig.

00:03:07.440 You were both there at my first gig.

00:03:09.300 Yeah, we wanted you to lose your virginity. 1.00

00:03:11.060 Yeah, exactly. 0.83

00:03:12.160 In November last year,

00:03:15.040 which went a lot better than my second gig.

00:03:19.860 I am a very good emcee.

00:03:24.260 That is always the way, man.

00:03:26.000 The first one always goes great,

00:03:27.500 and you're like, yeah, I'm actually a great comedian,

00:03:29.140 and then in the second gig, you're like, yeah, okay,

00:03:31.100 this is going to be a long journey.

00:03:32.360 Because after that, because I've been writing so much for that first gig,

00:03:34.780 because I wanted it to be funny

00:03:38.060 and the first gig went well

00:03:40.340 and I was like, well actually

00:03:41.500 I think I've got like 10 minutes of material now

00:03:44.060 so then I went and did this second gig

00:03:46.400 the next day actually at 2 North Down

00:03:49.640 and it was a new material night

00:03:51.660 with an audience of I think 7 or 8 people

00:03:54.300 in that huge room

00:03:55.820 and anyway that 10 minutes of material

00:03:59.120 turned out to only be a few minutes

00:04:01.860 and I had to kind of apologise

00:04:03.620 and get off stage

00:04:05.280 Welcome to comedy, my friend.

00:04:07.140 That is how it works.

00:04:08.500 It is a long, hard slog.

00:04:09.680 But in addition to all those things, you're a classical liberal,

00:04:13.140 which is a term that people like to use nowadays.

00:04:16.120 Everyone is simultaneously like a Nazi and classical liberal.

00:04:20.960 Do you know what I mean?

00:04:21.440 Those are the two terms that now everyone loves to use.

00:04:24.980 Well, I think I used to, when I was at university,

00:04:30.260 I very much, I mean, I loved Ron Paul, Rand Paul.

00:04:36.500 I very much kind of identified with the sort of more libertarian position.

00:04:42.200 But actually, as I've, you know, I've read a lot more Hayek to Tocqueville

00:04:47.420 and I just feel like actually classical liberalism is almost,

00:04:56.420 well, I just feel much more resonant with that position.

00:04:59.760 And also there's almost like a kind of tarnish on the libertarian moniker, right?

00:05:09.160 I think people kind of have used it in a sort of pejorative way for so long.

00:05:14.940 I don't know.

00:05:15.280 I think classical liberal is sort of a clean vehicle.

00:05:17.900 Even though it is an old liberal, it reminds people that there was an actual liberalism

00:05:26.080 before the contemporary misappropriation of the term, really.

00:05:32.180 I think so many people, and actually I think that's important to point out,

00:05:37.160 is that so many people go around calling themselves liberal

00:05:39.000 when they're absolutely not liberals,

00:05:41.260 and they're the ones calling everyone fascist 0.72

00:05:43.260 when they are actually the sort of intolerant fascists,

00:05:46.320 authoritarians in waiting.

00:05:48.860 And so I think, and, you know, in discourse, words are important.

00:05:53.480 So I think, you know, true liberals, which I believe are the classical liberals, need to reappropriate that word.

00:06:05.080 So what are the core tenets of classical liberalism? 0.96

00:06:07.500 Because most people have no fucking idea what any of these things mean. 0.64

00:06:10.180 Well, okay, so fundamentally equality, civil liberties, and the rights of the individual over the collective. 0.97

00:06:23.000 I mean, in a nutshell, I think that's pretty much it in the sort of three key points.

00:06:30.020 And from those points, you know, spread out so many other facets, you know, freedom of speech, property rights,

00:06:38.420 and the law, you know, and the state's role

00:06:43.820 as essentially enshrining and enforcing the laws

00:06:49.420 which protect those original tenets of classical liberalism.

00:06:55.120 And what do you think the word liberal means now?

00:06:57.440 Because sometimes, like we just touched on earlier,

00:07:00.300 when someone describes themselves as a liberal,

00:07:02.040 I always raise the eyebrow metaphorically.

00:07:04.880 Well, that's a problem, right?

00:07:05.740 Yeah, because, you know, these days people think liberalism is, well, or progressivism, right?

00:07:13.440 People think that slowly making everything more free for everyone is somehow liberty.

00:07:22.060 But it's obviously the actual inherently by offering loads of free things via the state, you're actually violating other people's liberty, right?

00:07:35.060 by expropriating their wealth

00:07:37.980 and also essentially enslaving the unborn 0.78

00:07:41.960 to huge sums of debt,

00:07:44.860 which actually is how it works out

00:07:47.160 because most public spending

00:07:48.960 is actually deficit finance.

00:07:53.020 So yes, I think there's,

00:07:55.540 and even the sort of progressive term,

00:07:58.620 it's progressively less free,

00:08:01.380 you know, if you're a proponent of that.

00:08:05.060 those ideas. I think we are slowly making society less and less free. And actually,

00:08:12.720 you know, I think that's one of my main gripes with the European Union, why I've been a sort

00:08:19.020 of longstanding, even well before the referendum, I was very in favor of leaving the European Union

00:08:27.780 because I think the trajectory of the European Union and the structures that they've installed

00:08:33.400 there are, well, the direct opposite of where we want to be going if we want to live in

00:08:40.500 a free society.

00:08:41.940 So let's touch it.

00:08:42.980 Let's explore that a little bit more.

00:08:45.040 Why do you think that?

00:08:45.860 Is there anything that you'd point to in particular?

00:08:48.360 Well, I guess the sort of centralization of power in an unelected, unaccountable view

00:08:54.000 is a recipe for a dictatorship.

00:08:55.720 And coupled with a sort of almost, well, complicity in expanding regulatory framework is like a steadily growing, I don't know, wave of control over the sort of minute details of everyone's lives.

00:09:22.480 And I just think, like, that's not a society I want to live in.

00:09:25.300 I believe in fundamentally transferring, devolving as much power, political power, to the individual and to local communities to make decisions for themselves.

00:09:37.060 Do you think, like, we're talking about liberalism and how that term has been redefined now.

00:09:40.840 Do you think it's become essentially a different way of saying left wing?

00:09:44.000 because i'll give you an example i was recently added to a list by chortle this comedy yeah review

00:09:50.320 website of comedians who are pushing back against the liberal consensus yeah right and they had this

00:09:56.300 whole list and then a guy a very good comedian gary delaney who watches our show sometimes and

00:10:02.540 he read it and he went this isn't a list of people pushing back against the liberal consensus

00:10:07.140 this is a list of people who are liberal pushing back against authoritarian exactly no well that's

00:10:12.160 the thing. And that's why I was saying before, is that we need to reappropriate and reassociate

00:10:20.120 the word liberal with the true sense of the word, actual old school classical liberalism.

00:10:28.140 And because it's not a fair state of affairs that people who go around thinking that they are

00:10:39.880 liberal, you know, are able to use that term and actually have successfully appropriated it from

00:10:47.520 people who actually are liberal-minded. And from your brief experience of working in the arts,

00:10:53.680 have you noticed that it's not the most liberal of industries, although it claims to be?

00:10:57.940 Well, that's definitely, I mean, I've been doing stand-up now for, well, eight months or something,

00:11:06.440 and done sort of 60 gigs or something.

00:11:13.160 And I have definitely just noticed from other people's material,

00:11:18.620 especially new material nights,

00:11:19.760 it's almost like everyone's very consciously trying to toe the party line.

00:11:25.820 And I was actually reading an article where he interviewed Stuart Lee

00:11:31.680 where he called up another comedian asking what he should be saying

00:11:35.660 on this particular point,

00:11:39.040 whether it was politically correct,

00:11:40.340 what was the politically correct way to...

00:11:42.460 It's always good to check your thinking.

00:11:43.980 Yeah, exactly.

00:11:45.100 Which I found that was...

00:11:46.980 I was like, that's extraordinary.

00:11:48.800 One comedian is actually calling up another one

00:11:50.820 just to check that he's towing the party line.

00:11:54.020 And, I mean, that's surely not what the role of a comedian is,

00:11:59.560 is to protect the establishment.

00:12:02.120 I mean, it's not like, it's just a weird, I mean, obviously I'm, you know, very new to it, and I'm not left-wing, I consider myself a liberal in my own heart, but I would say a classical liberal outwardly.

00:12:23.460 Good old Nazi. 0.86

00:12:24.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, all that, whatever the current.

00:12:28.160 Because that's what the Nazis wanted. 0.82

00:12:30.300 They wanted as much freedom for everybody as possible.

00:12:32.920 And have you actually outed yourself as a levy yet to the comedians?

00:12:37.340 Or is this your grand outing?

00:12:39.600 I think it's very easy to see.

00:12:44.600 It's all over my Twitter.

00:12:46.580 I mean, I've debated the stuff on.

00:12:49.880 I debated Nick Clegg on this week a while ago.

00:12:52.580 I mean, I've made no secret of it.

00:12:55.660 Because I think these sorts of things, particularly such monumental decisions, it requires you to speak up.

00:13:02.300 Well, the interesting thing that's happening now is actually that some of those people who are pushing back against this supposedly liberal consensus are starting to get traction because that's what they're doing.

00:13:14.940 You know, Jeff Norco, Leo Kerr.

00:13:17.380 Alistair Williams as well with his Brexit.

00:13:20.040 Did you see his Brexit?

00:13:21.080 Yeah, great bit of comedy.

00:13:22.480 Alistair's a very funny guy.

00:13:23.580 We know him well.

00:13:24.460 yeah which which i kind of i was just like this was an open goal for like any comedian to do that

00:13:30.180 to to do that joke but just no one was doing it no one was brave enough to actually do it right

00:13:35.600 well the thing with alistair is that he is very skilled yeah yeah and what he was able to do is

00:13:40.420 he did it in a comedy club that you you will know top secret generally attracts a very kind of

00:13:46.200 progressive young crowd and he has the skill level to be able to to dance that yeah exactly walk that

00:13:53.260 but if you go on stage

00:13:54.500 in a normal comedy club

00:13:55.580 and just go 1.00

00:13:56.120 yeah Brexit is fucking great 1.00

00:13:57.220 they might laugh 0.99

00:14:00.420 yeah

00:14:00.900 because they might think

00:14:02.880 you're being

00:14:03.220 yeah

00:14:03.500 I do a bit about

00:14:05.540 my mum being Brexit

00:14:06.460 and then

00:14:07.640 sometimes

00:14:08.600 the more progressive clubs

00:14:09.800 that gets a

00:14:10.280 ooh

00:14:11.500 I mean

00:14:13.020 but it's

00:14:15.020 what kind of

00:14:15.740 what kind of

00:14:16.940 free society

00:14:17.860 are we living in

00:14:19.740 where you

00:14:20.060 where people feel like

00:14:21.360 they can't actually

00:14:22.320 voice

00:14:22.880 what they really think

00:14:24.240 for fear of losing their job,

00:14:27.020 like losing business,

00:14:28.340 losing their friends.

00:14:29.480 I mean, it's not free.

00:14:31.540 We need to encourage people

00:14:33.900 to speak up

00:14:34.880 and use common sense

00:14:37.980 and share their

00:14:40.440 rational conclusions on things

00:14:42.860 without fear of just being

00:14:44.840 labeled a racist

00:14:46.180 or a Nazi or a fascist. 0.76

00:14:49.660 Well, you're going to enjoy my numbers.

00:14:51.540 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:52.140 But I also think as well that it's not just that element of it, although that is a massive problem.

00:14:57.860 I think as well it's that people who want careers, especially comedians who want careers in the mainstream media,

00:15:03.840 they are really loathe to come out because it means that they're going against a general consensus,

00:15:08.800 which as a result means that their opportunities will be limited.

00:15:11.200 Well, exactly. And obviously that has crossed my mind.

00:15:17.760 But I think it matters more to me that we fix society and we correct these, that we course correct into a sort of freer world than my short-term financial or career gain.

00:15:36.620 but maybe and i was saying this before i am optimistic i do think you know people like

00:15:41.520 yourselves going out and and and and having these conversations which need to be had

00:15:46.280 is going to wake people up people will be properly woke yeah yeah well it's like you you've been um

00:15:54.220 you you've kind of come out and started talking about i guess that's the freedom that comes with

00:15:59.020 having a gold mine wow god i don't have a gold mine i'm kidding but this is what we should do

00:16:05.480 man when trigonometry becomes a big success guys when you give us loads of money on patreon 0.83

00:16:09.240 subscribe star we're gonna buy a fucking gold mine yeah yeah we're gonna go out to where ghana 0.90

00:16:14.400 is it yeah well no i i i think well there's lots of there's lots of gold everywhere just you know 0.94

00:16:19.100 just just uh buy low so high that's buy low but that's what that's what we're gonna do man buy

00:16:25.580 a gold mine i'm jewish i've got i've got the natural skills yeah trading in precious metals

00:16:31.540 Yeah, exactly, mate. You're like, I was going to make a comparison between the pig and the truffle that you just hunt it out.

00:16:37.280 I really don't think that is a good...

00:16:38.620 No, that's not that. It comes across as deeply anti-Semitic.

00:16:41.680 Anyway, we will just move on.

00:16:43.160 But you are a lifelong Labour Party voter, so...

00:16:45.600 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Not anymore. Fuck Corbyn. 1.00

00:16:49.500 There we go. Sorry, my Venezuelan side comes out every now and again. 1.00

00:16:53.920 But it's a really important point you make. We do have this culture of fear.

00:16:59.040 That's why when I say there is a problem with free speech in this country, people go, no, it's not.

00:17:03.520 You just want to say, you know, just drop M-bombs and all the rest of it without repercussions. 1.00

00:17:07.940 Which is true.

00:17:08.740 Of course, I have a racist voice.

00:17:10.400 We all know this.

00:17:11.600 However, there is a real problem with freedom of speech in this country in that people are terrified to voice their true opinions.

00:17:17.760 And comedians are getting, you know, visits from the police asking them about jokes they've told, right?

00:17:24.020 I mean, that is a frightening reality, right?

00:17:28.020 I mean, like, how is that going on?

00:17:31.720 Or people, for a tweet they've said.

00:17:34.340 I mean, there's not even the illusion of free speech now, right?

00:17:39.940 People are just, I mean, the police are so politicized about this.

00:17:43.460 I mean, we've got knife crime going through the roof,

00:17:45.780 and they're going around chasing people on,

00:17:50.080 calling people up on tweets and jokes they've told,

00:17:53.180 or hate crimes, which essentially is just a crime, right?

00:17:57.880 But they're trying to attach more gravitas to it by what you're thinking, right, which is the motivation for it, which is prosecuting people for their thoughts indirectly, right?

00:18:11.280 I mean, that is not a free society.

00:18:16.600 We also have this hate incident thing now as well, which that is the thing that really blows my mind, which is essentially that if you do something and I perceive that you did it.

00:18:27.520 Well, that's what I mean. Yeah. And the thing is, like, they can't normal crime if it's committed. Right.

00:18:33.640 They have to investigate and they have to establish whether it happened or not.

00:18:36.740 But with hate incidents, because they're not crimes, they don't need to establish what happened at all.

00:18:42.180 So if I say you're immediately guilty. Yeah. So if I say something happened, it happened.

00:18:46.520 Yeah. And then that goes into recorded statistics. And then we have an epidemic of hate in Britain.

00:18:51.920 What are you talking about? Well, and then that that justifies their narrative to say,

00:18:57.260 oh, well, Brexit has caused a spike in hate incidents,

00:19:01.920 which is just nonsense.

00:19:03.380 They're just now, I mean, that's the thing.

00:19:06.040 What is a hate incident?

00:19:07.680 You can't prove or disprove what's going on in someone's head yet, at least.

00:19:13.920 And I think we should be very careful about this notion of hate speech,

00:19:22.900 hate crimes, all of that,

00:19:24.000 because fundamentally what it boils down to

00:19:26.620 is policing people's thoughts

00:19:28.640 before they're even able to speak, really.

00:19:33.380 Absolutely.

00:19:33.980 I mean, for a lot of people, I hate crime.

00:19:35.820 It's every time a concert thing goes on Good Morning Britain.

00:19:38.300 Yeah.

00:19:39.060 The amount of tweets and all the rest of it.

00:19:42.180 You were brilliant on Good Morning Britain, by the way.

00:19:43.960 Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

00:19:44.680 But actually, that's the thing is

00:19:45.820 I actually don't feel that that is true

00:19:48.360 in the sense that whenever I have been on it,

00:19:51.060 the feedback has always been overwhelmingly positive for me.

00:19:53.960 The Comedy Collective.

00:19:59.340 The Comedy Collective is a group where all the left...

00:20:01.800 Yeah, I'm on Comedy Collective, but have you tried to put...

00:20:05.220 Have they been bad-mouthing you on the Comedy Collective?

00:20:07.420 I have no idea. I don't really pay that much.

00:20:09.160 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:20:09.620 Is that right?

00:20:10.060 I pay a lot of attention to it.

00:20:12.080 But actually, you know that ITV, every time I go in Good Morning Britain,

00:20:15.440 they turn off all the comments for their videos.

00:20:17.580 Really?

00:20:18.000 Yeah.

00:20:18.460 And I think it's not just me.

00:20:20.160 Generally, they turn off the comments because all the stuff that they put out,

00:20:23.960 ordinary people don't agree with it.

00:20:26.080 So whenever I've been on it,

00:20:27.260 I certainly know by Twitter,

00:20:28.540 like the person that they've had me up against

00:20:30.560 in the debate, 1.00

00:20:31.920 they always get a ton of shit 1.00

00:20:33.200 and I always get a ton of praise. 1.00

00:20:35.560 But you wouldn't know that

00:20:37.100 by looking at the way that the presenters treat me

00:20:39.620 and the way that they treat the other person.

00:20:41.600 Do you think that's a conscious thing

00:20:42.600 of trying to mask that agreement with your position?

00:20:46.000 Yeah, I think so.

00:20:47.560 Because if you look on YouTube,

00:20:48.820 actually 90% of the Good Morning Britain videos

00:20:52.120 have a horrific like to dislike ratio really they get ratioed into the ground it's like

00:20:58.320 our matthew paris episode we had matthew paris on recently who who said that we must stop brexit

00:21:05.020 uh and a lot of people took that to be like us approving of his position yeah yeah and ratioed

00:21:11.380 that video into the ground so that's what happens and i think that the reason that is is they don't

00:21:15.960 want to have to deal with the reality that the public don't agree with them yeah yeah and they

00:21:21.400 have their own agenda that's driven by

00:21:23.320 very London-centric... Well, they don't even

00:21:25.220 care. They don't even care.

00:21:27.200 And there is this kind of...

00:21:30.260 You know, they think

00:21:31.320 that all Brexiteers 0.97

00:21:32.540 are like racist, bigots. 0.98

00:21:36.120 But, you know, 0.98

00:21:37.140 actually, I would say probably most of these

00:21:39.160 sort of radical Remainers actually

00:21:41.220 just don't really, like, care

00:21:43.240 much for the working class. 0.98

00:21:45.100 They have this sort of disdain

00:21:47.140 for anyone who

00:21:48.920 maybe doesn't share

00:21:51.180 their worldview and and and look i think i've met a lot of people uh you know remains some of my

00:22:00.540 family also um they remain and and and and i think it's a lot of people who who have have kind of you

00:22:07.340 know they've done well for themselves they're on the art they've got you know you know um a house

00:22:12.740 or a mortgage you know they read the ft uh and you know they they almost they almost don't want

00:22:19.720 to mess with what they've got. And, you know, they've made plans for a future in the European

00:22:27.980 Union. They don't want... I mean, the FT predicted that they thought that London house prices

00:22:33.040 could be hit with a 47% crash in the event of a no-deal Brexit. So obviously, that's

00:22:40.980 going to influence the thinking of people who own houses in London, which is, I don't

00:22:47.900 think a coincidence why so many people, you know, in Parliament and in the media and people

00:22:55.260 who are doing well for themselves have some London property, maybe that's their sort of

00:23:01.400 side business is a bit of property development, that they're all, you know, frightened of

00:23:06.240 Brexit, right, because they want to continue what they've been doing.

00:23:11.180 But I think it actually kind of reminds me of de Tocqueville, right?

00:23:17.020 He's saying you've got to step outside of what might be in your interest in your short-term financial interest

00:23:27.000 and do what's right for society and the country as a whole.

00:23:33.920 And I just think that we have to put the country first.

00:23:37.720 Well, see, the thing is, like, before Brexit, I may not have agreed with what you're saying, principally because I may not share your economic analysis, right?

00:23:47.280 I might think, well, I'm not sure that Brexit will be good for the economy.

00:23:50.600 But now that we are where we are, I struggle to defend an anti-Brexit argument on the simple basis that we had a vote, we made a decision, we have to steer it through, irrespective of how I personally feel about it.

00:24:05.080 Yeah. And actually, what's interesting is, from a statistical perspective, in any binary referenda, there will be a large portion of essentially don't knows, right?

00:24:18.800 And because there's no don't know option, they will invariably go for the status quo.

00:24:23.560 And I think that works out to like 32% of...

00:24:26.900 That was me.

00:24:27.680 Yeah, exactly.

00:24:28.580 Genuinely, that was me. I was just like, well, I don't know enough about it.

00:24:31.540 And, you know...

00:24:33.360 I'm a good person.

00:24:34.300 Yeah.

00:24:35.080 Almost a third of the vote, right, potentially voted for the status quo.

00:24:40.480 But now, if there was a second ever ender, the status quo is to leave, right?

00:24:44.900 So whether people would go back on that, I don't know.

00:24:49.500 It's kind of an interesting question.

00:24:51.260 What would be the result?

00:24:53.500 Would you have a big swing even for leave because they just want to get it done

00:24:57.820 and don't want to prolong the...

00:24:59.940 Because it would just open up a whole new can of worms.

00:25:01.880 I think that the thing that a lot of remainers simply don't want to address

00:25:04.860 is the fact that what they're demanding is undemocratic.

00:25:07.520 You can't have a referendum and then suddenly go,

00:25:10.500 oh, we didn't like the result of that.

00:25:12.360 And do you know what?

00:25:13.540 That's kind of quite fascist, isn't it? 1.00

00:25:17.700 You're the real fascist. 0.98

00:25:18.880 Exactly, but that's the thing. 0.99

00:25:20.400 The sort of casual dismissal of democracy

00:25:24.760 for your own short-term political or financial gain

00:25:31.400 is what ushered in authoritarian dictatorships

00:25:37.620 and the Nazi party

00:25:40.000 and people who are willing to look the other way

00:25:42.480 are just gross violations of people's freedom

00:25:47.120 and civil liberties.

00:25:50.800 So I think that there's a lot more in common

00:25:53.220 with the environment of just allowing democracy

00:25:58.560 to be trampled on than, I guess, the people who are actually just trying to enforce it.

00:26:09.940 And I think another thing that really, when we're talking about fascism,

00:26:13.240 is the way that they've made certain words now absolutely toxic,

00:26:19.660 like, oh, he's a lever, this must mean that he's racist, he's right-wing.

00:26:25.100 The idea that Brexit is purely right-wing is a nonsense anyway,

00:26:28.140 Because when you look at the old school left of Labour, they're all pro-Brexit.

00:26:32.640 Well, also, for their aims, what they want to achieve, they're not going to be able to do that.

00:26:41.120 Because a lot of it for the radical left is about consolidating power in their hands, right?

00:26:46.700 And they're not going to be able to do that when all the power has already been consolidated in Brussels in another set of pairs of hands.

00:26:56.100 Well, actually, we had Paul Embry on the show.

00:26:57.980 I don't know if you caught that episode.

00:26:58.940 No, no, I haven't.

00:27:00.040 He's a trade unionist and a socialist,

00:27:02.020 and he was saying, look, the traditional left-wing argument

00:27:04.840 in favor of leaving the European Union

00:27:07.660 is it takes the shackles off your government,

00:27:10.620 and if you have a radical Labour government, you can then...

00:27:13.180 Yeah, you can actually make a lot of socialist changes.

00:27:18.880 And you can have, you know, Venezuela type of economy.

00:27:22.780 Yeah, exactly.

00:27:23.520 Well, I need to lose weight, so...

00:27:25.140 exactly that's what you want mate

00:27:27.400 yeah that's absolutely true

00:27:28.980 and that pretty much is the only way it's going to happen

00:27:31.020 if you literally don't have money for food

00:27:33.480 is that why you're voting for Corbyn

00:27:35.900 yeah that's why I'm voting for Corbyn

00:27:37.940 yeah to get my cholesterol

00:27:39.100 and because he hates me

00:27:41.360 yeah exactly

00:27:42.260 every time he pisses me off I'm like right Corbyn

00:27:45.480 Corbyn yeah tick

00:27:46.580 fantastic the other thing I was going to ask you as well

00:27:49.200 is you're someone who's obviously lived abroad

00:27:50.900 travelled a lot and one of the things

00:27:53.160 I was talking about on Twitter recently

00:27:54.780 that had quite a lot of resonance is the idea that a lot of the people

00:27:57.520 who criticize West, West, the West, Western civilization

00:28:00.740 are people who've never experienced anything except for Western civilization.

00:28:05.580 And as someone who has traveled a lot and lived abroad

00:28:08.500 and seen what people live like in Africa and in other places,

00:28:12.600 how do you feel when people go on about how the West is this evil, oppressive, whatever?

00:28:17.800 Well, I mean, I think Western democracy,

00:28:22.720 you know, and free markets essentially, free market principles have raised more people

00:28:32.200 out of poverty around the world than any other political force.

00:28:38.040 And you know, you can really, you know, I mean, we're just so lucky, you know, to live

00:28:44.480 where we are, and that's why I really do have a sort of optimistic view of the West.

00:28:53.260 I do think that common sense will win out and win the day, but, yeah, I think we are

00:29:00.560 very lucky, and I think a lot of people forget that or just have no real idea how lucky we

00:29:08.960 are to live there.

00:29:09.980 So, I mean, yeah, talking about you being abroad in Africa.

00:29:18.040 Well, do you have any other kind of specific points about that?

00:29:21.320 I think what Constance was probably getting at a little bit is we're a little bit spoilt here, aren't we?

00:29:28.900 Yeah. Oh, no, I think we are.

00:29:30.300 And we have the luxury of should we wish to go out and stop traffic and cause a big load of chaos for what we might believe politically.

00:29:48.580 In many other countries, you just can't do that.

00:29:51.400 I'd like to see them travel in Moscow.

00:29:54.080 You just can't do that.

00:29:56.100 And it seems, you know, it's just never good enough for some people.

00:30:02.140 And, yeah, I think we've got a lot to congratulate ourselves on, you know, the strides we've made in women's liberation and, well, you know, anti-slavery and all these things.

00:30:23.340 But there's still slavery and oppression of women and gays going on in so many other countries around the world, which people just don't like, you know, that's what really people should be protesting.

00:30:33.340 They should be standing outside the embassies of, you know, Saudi Arabia and, well, not just Saudi Arabia, but, you know, there's so many more important things to be up in arms about which are going unchallenged.

00:30:53.940 I'm pretty sure there's never been more slavery in the history of the world.

00:30:57.220 No, there are more slaves in the world than there ever have been.

00:31:01.800 Really?

00:31:02.100 Yeah.

00:31:02.540 I didn't know that.

00:31:03.020 Yeah, it was because you're a good person.

00:31:07.340 I'm one of the best, mate.

00:31:09.360 You're so progressive. 0.99

00:31:10.760 You have no fucking idea what's going on. 0.99

00:31:12.680 Yeah, mate. 1.00

00:31:13.200 You don't need to.

00:31:14.000 When you've got this much virtue,

00:31:16.060 it just cleanses everything around me.

00:31:18.820 God, that must be nice.

00:31:19.700 Oh, it is, mate.

00:31:20.780 I'm like Jesus.

00:31:21.900 Anyway, the one thing I wanted to talk to you about

00:31:25.120 a little bit as well was reality TV.

00:31:26.900 So you created this reality TV show.

00:31:28.800 Well, I didn't create it.

00:31:30.020 Oh, no, no, no, no.

00:31:30.840 Sorry.

00:31:31.280 I didn't create it.

00:31:32.020 No, I basically was doing this business.

00:31:36.760 I was at university.

00:31:37.680 I ended up leaving Edinburgh to focus on this business,

00:31:41.800 which was actually a tech company back then.

00:31:44.100 And I had been approached by email when I was at Edinburgh

00:31:51.380 by this production company called Monkey Kingdom

00:31:56.020 who had seen me in Tatler's little black book, rather embarrassingly.

00:32:02.020 But so they asked me if I would consider making this pilot for them.

00:32:09.100 And I actually ignored them for about a year.

00:32:11.940 And then I was back in London and they got back in touch and said they really wanted to find people.

00:32:17.240 They've got commissioned to make a pilot from E4.

00:32:20.120 And so I kind of helped them come up with a storyline and found some of my friends who I thought were that way inclined.

00:32:29.880 and because it's how much of it because there's always this argument particularly with love island

00:32:37.440 and all of this how much of that is real and how much of that is scripted and also as well

00:32:42.820 well what i want to touch on a little bit is how much responsibility do production companies have

00:32:48.680 to the people who then go on yeah because that is it's a hot topic at the moment i mean if i had

00:32:54.860 a penny for every time someone asks me how

00:32:56.680 real it is, I would probably

00:32:58.940 have... Two gold mines.

00:33:02.140 Glad I'm asking

00:33:02.880 the big questions I haven't been asked before.

00:33:05.140 But no, no, it's

00:33:06.800 a fair question because I think

00:33:08.780 part of the reason for its success

00:33:10.800 is that

00:33:11.920 the blurred lines

00:33:14.660 of fact and fiction

00:33:16.700 and the audience is almost like

00:33:18.860 a puzzle to try and work

00:33:20.760 out what's real and what's not.

00:33:23.120 You're constantly

00:33:24.040 asking yourself that can't be real

00:33:26.380 they're not actually

00:33:27.160 obviously the elements where you're bumping

00:33:29.900 someone in the middle of the street

00:33:31.160 random or what was called

00:33:33.880 a random bumping moment

00:33:35.600 those are not real

00:33:37.720 because you have to set up like four cross shooting

00:33:39.880 cameras

00:33:40.340 but as much as

00:33:44.060 the producers will

00:33:46.000 can have control

00:33:47.900 over they want everything to be

00:33:49.980 real in terms of the relationships, friendships

00:33:51.960 like disagreements

00:33:54.020 arguments breakups and all that stuff to the point where like they call you every day to find

00:33:58.440 out what's going on what you're planning on doing to check your thinking uh uh and um and so you

00:34:07.340 kind of you know tell them what so it's very like intense and takes up a lot of time uh you know

00:34:12.600 not just filming but you know sharing your thinking with them uh and um and so i've experienced you

00:34:21.120 know how bad things could get in this country but um but uh but yeah i i think it's a weird like

00:34:27.380 i mean this isn't how they would sell it but i i kind of have obviously thought a lot about it

00:34:32.260 and it almost it's quite kind of post-modern in a way because it creates two realities within one

00:34:39.380 reality and the the reality on camera becomes a reality in and of itself which everyone who's

00:34:45.620 involved is kind of complicit in and doesn't speak about the things which they might all know isn't

00:34:51.100 true, because it's kind of like in the interest of furthering the storyline.

00:34:58.400 So obviously the production don't like that, but like a lot of people I know have kind of

00:35:04.520 maybe had relationships of convenience and camera airtime, right?

00:35:12.420 But then, you know, if you're both willfully involved in something like that, then soon

00:35:18.940 it becomes real and then you're like well what is you may have got together for that reason but 0.99

00:35:24.040 then you know you're still together so are you actually together i mean it's a head fuck yeah 0.77

00:35:29.080 this is why when francis and i decided to do the show we made a clear distinction in the beginning 0.95

00:35:33.600 that we become lovers yeah we would never let our true feelings about each other

00:35:38.100 affect our professional relationship it's a tricky business yeah but it's funny to the extent to

00:35:44.740 which all tv is massaged as someone who's done a bit of it i know like when you go on good morning

00:35:48.900 britain it's not like you just walk into a room and start talking they want the headlines there's

00:35:53.620 quite a lot of prep they call you up before when you're sitting there they're doing your makeup

00:35:57.980 there's a particular person who's very clearly very skilled psychologically comes in and just

00:36:02.980 chats to you as like as while it's happening yeah and what they're trying to do is tease you just

00:36:10.120 past the point which you were prepared to go to so that you say a thing that's a little bit extra

00:36:16.280 Yeah, because all they care about is getting their show, those clips, in the headlines, right?

00:36:22.420 And they'll keep badgering you to get that point that they want that little headline snippet which they can use and get in the Daily Mail.

00:36:31.500 Which I think why new media like podcasts like YouTube is having such a breakthrough because, as you say, it allows for an authentic conversation.

00:36:41.400 Proper conversation.

00:36:41.880 like we haven't sat you down to try and get you to say something that you don't want to say

00:36:46.500 quite the opposite we want you to say what you actually think yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly

00:36:50.740 string you up that way yeah yeah yeah exactly it was a nice comedy career while it lasted

00:36:57.200 eight months yeah you've done very well but um but yeah i mean i i guess you know um in in answer

00:37:05.320 to your other question

00:37:06.260 I don't know how other shows do it

00:37:11.200 and how much

00:37:13.400 of

00:37:13.760 their duty of care

00:37:17.420 they fulfill

00:37:18.400 I think

00:37:20.360 in the early days

00:37:22.540 no one really knew what it was going to be

00:37:25.120 and no one really knew

00:37:27.360 how big these

00:37:29.220 shows were going to get

00:37:30.440 because it was kind of

00:37:32.060 at the same time as TOWIE

00:37:35.020 We were kind of sort of the first shows like that, which kind of catapulted all of us into sudden, I don't know, well, I guess fame or whatever.

00:37:49.260 You know, we were recognized everywhere we went.

00:37:53.240 And certainly some people were stable enough to deal with that and certain other people didn't, you know, weren't.

00:38:02.980 and I saw a lot of people kind of break down from the show

00:38:11.200 and the sort of whole fallout from it.

00:38:14.140 That's really interesting.

00:38:15.140 So tell us a little bit about that

00:38:16.440 because I think most ordinary people will always wonder,

00:38:19.960 like, this guy's a millionaire, he's famous,

00:38:24.160 he's got hot women walking up to him on the street, blah, blah, blah. 1.00

00:38:27.380 Yeah, my life is great.

00:38:30.220 But you'd have to be a billionaire.

00:38:32.140 there's no such thing as an ugly billion yeah that's probably true actually i imagine 0.99

00:38:38.680 not that you're ugly all right even the producers laughing you're fucking fired at 0.97

00:38:45.480 all right but no but yeah sorry let me just finish this question right like what is the 0.97

00:38:52.660 the thing that drives people crazy or that makes people go off the rails when that happens well

00:38:58.660 Well, okay, so I think the nature of these shows presenting themselves and the actual end product as reality,

00:39:11.240 you know, them dealing with the cast members, you know, and saying it all has to be real,

00:39:17.600 it leads certain people to almost become caricatures of themselves.

00:39:21.560 And when their lives become so deeply intertwined with what's going on on screen and the chaos and drama that comes with that, they kind of lose track of what is real and what isn't and who they really are.

00:39:39.900 So they lose self-awareness, and it's been quite interesting.

00:39:47.380 Obviously, a lot of the cast, well, pretty much all of the cast I knew before from childhood, right, from school and stuff like that.

00:39:58.480 And so it was interesting to see some people and how it affected them.

00:40:05.760 I'm not going to obviously name names.

00:40:08.220 Well, you obviously are just off camera.

00:40:09.900 It's fine, he's going to spill the beans.

00:40:11.840 But yeah, I'll tell you.

00:40:14.440 Because right now, we have got, especially young people,

00:40:18.480 this obsession of fame for fame's sake.

00:40:21.300 If you ask, I'm a former teacher, you ask these kids what they want to be

00:40:25.160 when they go out and want to be famous.

00:40:26.440 What do you want to be famous for?

00:40:27.520 Is it an amazing footballer?

00:40:28.980 No, it's famous for, and it's amazing because it's sort of fed right

00:40:34.780 into the hands of big tech

00:40:37.180 and wanting to kind of share their entire lives

00:40:40.200 with the algorithm,

00:40:41.680 which is eventually going to kind of

00:40:43.400 know everything about you

00:40:45.000 and it's going to be able to make better decisions

00:40:46.880 for you and for your life than you will, right?

00:40:50.160 It's going to be able to say,

00:40:51.260 well, actually, don't go for this girl

00:40:52.980 because you're much more compatible.

00:40:55.880 And it will be right.

00:40:57.240 Don't go for this girl. 1.00

00:40:57.980 You're actually gay. 1.00

00:40:59.320 You're like men. 0.99

00:41:00.640 And it's getting that way.

00:41:02.440 But I do think that, you know, fame is an unnatural phenomenon, right?

00:41:09.460 You know, you would never in nature, right,

00:41:12.900 when we were sort of living our sort of tribal hunter-gatherer lives,

00:41:18.580 be able to become hugely famous, right?

00:41:21.960 There was no vehicle before the printing press or, you know.

00:41:26.340 So obviously there were sort of eventually those kinds of kings and royalty and stuff like that.

00:41:35.500 But it's an unnatural thing.

00:41:38.200 And so I think psychologically we don't really know how to deal with it.

00:41:41.780 And it almost excites people and the idea of it.

00:41:45.780 I think definitely it goes hand in hand, this sort of desire for fame

00:41:51.360 and these sort of treating famous people

00:41:55.360 like they are almost kinds of, you know, demigods, right?

00:42:00.020 Like people treat them like they're bigger and more important

00:42:04.300 than just the average guy on the street.

00:42:06.740 And, yeah, I guess it's, I don't know where I'm going with that.

00:42:13.880 Paul was going to say, the problem for me that I have with reality TV,

00:42:19.100 and I don't think a lot of people understand this

00:42:21.080 when they're getting into it

00:42:21.860 is essentially

00:42:22.620 it's a true life

00:42:23.420 soap opera

00:42:24.060 so they take aspects

00:42:25.620 of your character

00:42:26.380 they sort of

00:42:27.140 mishmash it together

00:42:28.100 and then they create

00:42:29.140 this character of it

00:42:29.980 which is

00:42:30.900 part of you

00:42:31.960 but doesn't in no way

00:42:32.780 represent the whole of you

00:42:34.100 but that's

00:42:35.080 what everybody

00:42:36.060 the general public

00:42:36.920 thinks that you are

00:42:38.080 well that's the thing

00:42:38.820 and

00:42:39.240 I think a lot of people

00:42:41.240 would assume

00:42:42.760 because I

00:42:44.240 I was on that show

00:42:45.480 and because of how they

00:42:46.480 presented me

00:42:48.020 really

00:42:48.960 you know

00:42:49.600 to some extent

00:42:50.560 without my, you know, permission as like some spoiled rich kid, you know, that's had everything

00:42:57.400 handed to him on a plate. And, and that couldn't be, you know, further from the truth. I mean,

00:43:02.080 I'm, I'm, I'm a self-made man. I've never had any money given to me by my dad.

00:43:07.400 Just a small loan of one million dollars.

00:43:09.840 I wish. Not even that. And so, yeah, so, so it, it's kind of like, you can't,

00:43:20.400 you can't control that, you can't control how they edit you,

00:43:23.120 you can't control how they present you.

00:43:24.620 You've just got to do your best to give a good and fair representation

00:43:28.540 of who you are in opportunities like this

00:43:31.440 and outside of that very limited window into a fake reality, almost.

00:43:40.340 All right, well...

00:43:41.080 There's one question that I wanted to ask.

00:43:43.980 I didn't say fake reality.

00:43:45.120 It goes back to the left-wing thing that we talked about before.

00:43:47.920 in light of the fact

00:43:49.560 that two people

00:43:50.240 have committed suicide

00:43:51.200 who've gone on

00:43:53.040 what's it

00:43:54.680 Love Island

00:43:55.220 is that right?

00:43:57.100 yeah

00:43:57.220 two people

00:43:58.060 two former contestants

00:43:59.820 have committed suicide

00:44:00.900 I can think of some people

00:44:01.760 I want to go on there now

00:44:02.580 I'm never going to go

00:44:04.700 on Love Island mate

00:44:05.400 it's too sexy

00:44:06.280 not you

00:44:06.640 not you

00:44:07.300 I would not go that far

00:44:09.060 with that man

00:44:09.620 I love you really Francis

00:44:11.000 we're going to kiss after this 0.97

00:44:12.760 we're really fucking not 0.98

00:44:13.940 right 0.96

00:44:14.200 and also as well

00:44:16.440 recently somebody

00:44:17.900 committed suicide because of Jeremy Cole. How much responsibility do these production companies

00:44:22.040 have to the people that go on, especially regarding Africa?

00:44:24.820 So, yeah, so actually, I think they do have more responsibility than they realize, or maybe they

00:44:35.040 do. Look, for them, it's about making a good TV show, right? That's their main priority. And

00:44:43.400 often that comes at the expense of people's mental well-being and there's a sort of an awareness of

00:44:50.300 that in producers like they know that it's you know they know and you know they they'll pay sort

00:44:56.200 of lip service to their their obligations they'll get a you know psychologist to interview you or

00:45:03.460 whatever but I mean it's not like rigorous psychoanalysis and a lot of people have things

00:45:08.900 which they just don't share with the psychologists.

00:45:11.720 Like a lot of people who go on these shows,

00:45:14.480 I think are actually, you know,

00:45:16.300 they might pretend to have loads of money,

00:45:18.540 but they may be like in quite a lot of debt

00:45:20.700 or they're desperate and they think that going on Love Island

00:45:24.180 is going to suddenly solve all their problems.

00:45:27.040 But almost like the nature of something like Love Island,

00:45:31.000 you know, the way that they have this whole new boatload

00:45:33.420 of fresh faces in every year,

00:45:36.520 It's almost like designed to make the country forget about the last group of people. 0.60

00:45:40.940 Do you know what I mean?

00:45:41.820 So they've got like a year to just make it, right?

00:45:45.340 And if they don't, and if they don't feel like it's going as well as they expected it to,

00:45:50.460 there must be a huge sense of like, well, pressure and depression.

00:45:57.240 And, you know, I can completely see how you can spiral out of that.

00:46:00.360 people who aren't necessarily uh uh stable enough to deal with the inevitable uh uh decline in work

00:46:08.380 that comes with doing those those shows people people are expecting to just be the next i don't

00:46:14.840 know good example yeah but i know what you mean it's almost like you have to be mentally unstable

00:46:20.640 to want to go on that show and then it's a show that's really bad for people who are mentally

00:46:24.840 anyway we've got to wrap up so on that happy note

00:46:27.960 we always ask one more

00:46:30.060 question which is what's one thing

00:46:31.880 that no one is talking about that we should be talking

00:46:33.960 about

00:46:34.300 God you

00:46:37.360 told me you were going to ask me this at the beginning

00:46:39.920 and I

00:46:40.340 what should everyone be talking about

00:46:43.400 everyone should be

00:46:45.660 talking about classical liberalism

00:46:47.580 as we've done

00:46:49.820 for an hour

00:46:50.260 there we go

00:46:51.640 or at least they should look into

00:46:54.140 and a very good book

00:46:58.080 I could recommend

00:46:58.820 people read

00:46:59.660 is The Fatal Conceit

00:47:01.260 by Friedrich Hayek

00:47:02.760 fantastic

00:47:04.120 excellent stuff

00:47:04.960 well

00:47:05.420 just remind us

00:47:06.700 the name of your business again

00:47:07.740 Yoshi Cider

00:47:09.020 Yoshi Cider

00:47:09.600 get the cider

00:47:10.200 and I can say

00:47:11.280 I don't drink

00:47:12.300 but if I was going to have a relapse

00:47:13.520 I would certainly

00:47:14.200 pink

00:47:14.440 you're never alone there

00:47:16.240 fantastic

00:47:18.600 just in case

00:47:20.380 this goes out

00:47:21.060 during or before Edinburgh

00:47:22.320 do you want to plug

00:47:23.220 Yeah, so I've got a two-week run at the Pleasance Ace Dome from 11 p.m. to 12 p.m., so be there, book tickets on my Instagram from the 9th to the 25th, but not the 13th.

00:47:40.560 Your Twitter is?

00:47:42.140 My Twitter is Francis Ball.

00:47:44.020 Fantastic. We'll put it in the video. Thank you very much for tuning in, as always.

00:47:47.860 Follow us at TriggerPod on all the social media.

00:47:50.400 give us an itunes review remember to subscribe to the channel click the bell

00:47:54.740 button to get the notifications and we will see you in a week from now with

00:47:58.040 another great episode see you later guys take care

TRIGGERnometry - August 18, 2019

Francis Boulle on Classical Liberalism and the Dangers of Reality TV

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