TRIGGERnometry - Gambling Companies Turn Addiction Into Profit

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00:00:30.000 gambling is very neurologically similar gambling addiction to cocaine addiction it's difficult for

00:00:37.700 people to comprehend i accept because it isn't a substance and you think how do you get addicted

00:00:41.480 to something that isn't a substance how is it having that effect on those neurological pathways

00:00:46.620 in the same way cocaine does but but it's a physiological addiction

00:00:50.280 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:01:02.360 for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our brilliant guest today

00:01:07.900 is the director of cleanup gambling mad's up cousin welcome to trigonometry thanks for having

00:01:12.700 me on it's great to have you on listen before we get into talking about what we're going to talk

00:01:16.520 about tell everybody a little bit about who are you how are you where you are what has been your

00:01:21.240 journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us oh well I'm a campaigner for

00:01:26.400 gambling reform and I was addicted to gambling when I was younger I got addicted to fixed odds

00:01:31.060 betting terminals from the age of 16 and yeah got into a huge amount of debt and

00:01:37.080 had a profound impact on my my life when I was young and my mental health and then

00:01:43.980 And thankfully, after that, managed to get treatment and support

00:01:49.900 and got out of the addiction and finished my degree

00:01:53.160 and then went into politics, worked for a couple of MPs

00:01:56.560 and then started campaigning against fixed odds betting terminals

00:02:00.100 when I was about 22.

00:02:02.160 And that was a campaign that spanned many years,

00:02:05.260 but we got that over the line and that was enacted in 2019.

00:02:10.880 We campaigned for the maximum stake to be reduced from £100

00:02:13.320 pounds down to two pounds a spin and since then I've been pushing for reforms of online gambling

00:02:21.560 so a wide spectrum of different policy areas that we're hoping to address but in the middle of all

00:02:29.380 of that I was a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn between 2016 and 2017. I'm off we'll maybe talk

00:02:37.180 about that towards the end because we had a fascinating conversation about it we were

00:02:41.980 talking before and francis was telling you that we've we've obviously we've got advertisers that

00:02:46.880 advertise on our show um and uh we'd never really had any big issue with advertising various things

00:02:53.360 that were being offered but we got an a suggestion of an ad for a gambling company once uh and the

00:02:59.860 guys didn't particularly mind but i don't know why i had a really strong feeling that i don't want to

00:03:05.120 be advertising this and i don't even necessarily i couldn't formulate why but i just i do think

00:03:11.720 there's something about it that you know like when you were when you were addicted and you

00:03:16.820 lost all that money how much in the hole were you oh well I was about 20,000 down um by the age of

00:03:25.740 20 and it took me quite a few years to to pay it off um and yeah so I mean that's the thing it has

00:03:33.600 quite significant long-term medium-term long-term consequences as well like you can stop gambling

00:03:40.140 but then you have all of the you're trying to pay back all the debts and you're trying to repair all

00:03:44.400 the damage that is caused and that can take a number of years as well so yeah look i think

00:03:48.340 your instincts are probably right like i think what people don't aren't really aware of is

00:03:54.180 that the the business model is very much uh trying to extract as much as possible

00:04:00.980 from the people that become addicted so um for example between 60 and 80 percent of the profits

00:04:10.520 for online gambling are coming from the five percent of people that are either

00:04:13.980 problem or at risk gamblers so the the vast majority of the revenues are coming from people

00:04:19.480 who are losing more than they can afford so when you've got a business model like that

00:04:23.340 your core customer base that's driving the majority of your revenue is constantly going broke

00:04:29.900 so you need to replace it so this is where the huge spend on advertising comes in and it's not

00:04:37.540 just advertising on podcasts and tv and you know digital ads it's also affiliate marketing there's

00:04:43.880 some affiliates that will get between 50 and 75 percent of someone's losses if they get someone

00:04:48.780 to sign up to a gambling site through them so they didn't offer us that deal if they did we

00:04:52.480 definitely would have taken i mean that would be very tempting i can imagine yeah yeah so i mean

00:04:57.160 that's the thing is a constant like clamor for player acquisition you need new they need new

00:05:02.740 people all the time yeah because they're they're customer base that you know the average um account

00:05:09.200 lasts a year so a customer will have an account on average for a year and in that time they will

00:05:14.800 either get addicted and lose all the money they have access to or they just get bored and there's

00:05:18.820 very few people in between um there are people in between of course and there'll be people watching

00:05:23.260 this who will bet occasionally but it's not those people that bet every now and again infrequently

00:05:28.860 that are driving the majority of the revenue it's not you know that's not the reason that we have

00:05:32.880 10 premier league teams sponsored by gambling companies you know that it's the people that

00:05:38.080 are losing life-altering sums of money unfortunately Matt and how do you know this

00:05:42.460 where do where do these stats come from because what you've just said is is horrific because

00:05:47.120 essentially they found a way to monetize addiction they have yeah I mean so there's various different

00:05:53.160 studies that the 60 percent from five percent comes from the the house of lords gambling industry

00:05:58.480 select committee and there was an estimate recently from natsen and gamble aware which

00:06:04.700 i think it was 86 percent coming from five percent uh 86 percent of the profits coming for the five

00:06:10.340 percent of the customers so lots of different estimates based on different data that we have

00:06:15.860 access to different researchers have access to but the overwhelming picture is that you have a

00:06:20.760 business model effectively that relies on people losing more than they can afford a sub a subset

00:06:25.040 of the customer base and in that context it's not in their commercial interest to reduce harm

00:06:32.080 if they reduce harm they're going to reduce their profits and that means you know that means that

00:06:38.580 they're going to have to stand up in front of their shareholders and say this next quarter we're

00:06:42.740 going to reduce addiction and we're going to reduce profits as a result it's just not viable

00:06:46.420 it's not it's not possible for them to do it through self-regulation so this is why we push

00:06:50.860 the regulations is i think it's a market that does need regulation otherwise you just end up with

00:06:56.480 the vendor extracting as much as they can from the consumer in that kind of antagonistic

00:07:02.800 relationship and why why are you not pushing for complete prohibition i don't think prohibition

00:07:08.640 works i think you it's better to have a legal and regulated market um but properly regulated

00:07:15.960 the problem we have is we have a legal market but it isn't properly regulated

00:07:19.720 it's a bit like if and and i think there are some analogies with drug policy but it's a bit like if

00:07:26.280 we were to legalize drugs which i would be very sympathetic towards and decided to instead of

00:07:34.400 you know regulating supply and regulating consumption um we just decided to liberalize

00:07:39.400 the market completely and allow suppliers to advertise on tv and had no limits to what you

00:07:46.160 could purchase and you know didn't invest properly in treatment that's another problem that we have

00:07:50.460 as well with gambling so all of these things you think well all the benefits of having something

00:07:55.020 that's regulated uh legalized and regulated properly are being missed in gambling because

00:08:01.040 we're just not we're just not applying proper regulation to it matt is there no there must be

00:08:08.700 a body that regulates the gambling industry there is the gambling commission and the gambling

00:08:13.940 commission was conceived of in the early 2000s and and was formed after the 2005 gambling act

00:08:22.300 it took the gambling commission seven years to start licensing online gambling so that was

00:08:27.220 basically a wild west for seven years when from 2007 when the gambling commission was formed to

00:08:31.880 2014 and ever since then it's been playing catch up so effectively you've had you've had these

00:08:36.560 online gambling operators that all went offshore to tax havens so they're not paying corporation

00:08:42.920 tax built their businesses up with in low tax low regulation jurisdictions and were able to sell

00:08:51.420 gambling their services to the british market without any oversight for so long and as i say

00:08:58.740 the gambling commission ever since has been playing catch-up but the problem is the legislation the

00:09:03.600 gambling act is it's not really geared towards regulating online gambling it's mainly um focused

00:09:11.100 on venue-based gambling which is what we had in the early 2000s internet gambling was very

00:09:15.020 very primitive at that point so i think yeah that's one of the things we're trying to do is

00:09:21.100 just bring that legislation into the 21st century and uh from from the point of view of the sort of

00:09:27.380 addiction itself most people i think watching this will have had the experience of smoking or

00:09:33.140 drinking a bit too much or taking drugs or whatever addictions that people have. I think

00:09:37.540 almost everyone can relate to the process of being addicted to something in one way or another.

00:09:43.040 Is gambling similar or is it a different thing entirely?

00:09:48.560 Gambling is very neurologically similar, gambling addiction, to cocaine addiction. So there's been

00:09:55.020 various studies on how it affects the brain. Now, it's difficult for people to comprehend,

00:09:59.960 I accept because it isn't a substance and you think how do you get addicted to something that

00:10:03.580 isn't a substance how is it having that effect on those neurological pathways in the same way

00:10:08.900 cocaine does but it's a physiological addiction and I think that when you're looking at something

00:10:14.860 like gambling addiction for a long time it's suited the gambling industry to propagate an

00:10:22.700 argument that and this fits in with the kind of responsible gambling paradigm where like if people

00:10:28.640 get addicted it's because they've got something wrong with them like they're they're faulty

00:10:33.040 individuals and you know we need to just look after this very small percentage of people that

00:10:38.940 for some reason get addicted to gambling and that's not really evidence an evidence-based

00:10:45.820 perspective and the reality is that you have particular gambling products that are much more

00:10:52.060 associated with gambling addiction than others so for example online slots 45 percent of people

00:10:57.660 that engage with online slots are either problem or at risk gamblers so you know compare that

00:11:02.100 fixed odds betting terminals was around 50%. What's a fixed odds betting terminal Matt just

00:11:06.980 for clarification? Yeah so that's a machine in a betting shop where you can bet you used to be

00:11:12.200 able to bet up to 100 pounds every 20 seconds on roulette and slots and yeah and we reduced that

00:11:19.580 to two pounds a spin in 2019 so that was obviously a very welcome change but I think the yeah

00:11:27.440 I think the understanding that gambling products can have a role in inducing or exacerbating

00:11:34.360 gambling harm, that was recognized with that policy change.

00:11:39.640 And I think that now needs to be applied to different products online.

00:11:44.040 At the moment, there's no limits to the stakes on online slots, for example.

00:11:47.260 So the amount people can lose is limitless and it can happen very quickly.

00:11:51.840 and unlike with other addictions as you mentioned it's so easy to keep gambling addiction a secret

00:11:58.180 there's no physical signs or no obvious physical signs people can feel as though that by gambling

00:12:07.400 they can win their way out of trouble they can actually solve the problems their addiction has

00:12:12.560 caused by carrying on with the thing they're addicted to which is quite I think unique

00:12:16.120 compared to drinking or drugs so yeah i mean it's incredibly dangerous for many reasons and

00:12:22.740 the the harms extend beyond the individual very often it's families that will will you know bear

00:12:29.960 the brunt of of someone's gambling and workplaces and communities if people steal from work to fund

00:12:35.280 their addiction so there's a huge knock-on effect and at the middle of it you've got a sector which

00:12:40.260 is kind of reaping the rewards at the expense of everyone else while being based in primarily

00:12:46.480 based in tax havens and you think well this is an obvious kind of area for that needs regulation

00:12:52.280 yeah and one of the questions I was going to ask is I think I've been in the casino I think twice

00:12:57.120 in my life and I found it quite a scary experience in some way because I remember I had this chip in

00:13:04.480 my hand, uh, that was worth a hundred quid or 200 quid. It did not feel like what I was placing

00:13:12.260 on the table was a hundred pounds worth because a hundred pounds is a lot of money, particularly

00:13:16.120 in that moment, it was a lot of money to me, but it just, it changed the experience. And I imagine

00:13:22.560 gambling online does that even more. It doesn't feel like real money. People often say that about

00:13:27.300 credit cards. When they spend money on a credit card, it doesn't feel like real money. Is that

00:13:32.500 part of of the process where there's a kind of disassociation from reality of how much money

00:13:38.520 you're playing with and gambling away yeah absolutely the disassociation is very much a

00:13:43.720 part of it um and yeah online obviously there's the propensity to have repeat deposits you can

00:13:50.880 deposit money into an online gambling account there's no real checks you can just keep depositing

00:13:56.120 as much as you can as much as you want to um and before you know it you've lost all your money

00:14:00.200 because you've been in that cycle of loss chasing.

00:14:02.900 And yeah, there's a huge disassociative effect

00:14:06.120 with online gambling.

00:14:07.240 And we are the first generation

00:14:08.940 that has access to casino games

00:14:13.400 at high speed in our pockets.

00:14:17.620 Historically, there was one point in Europe

00:14:20.900 where roulettes was banned everywhere.

00:14:23.080 And the only place you could play it was Monte Carlo

00:14:24.480 because there was a recognition

00:14:26.300 that it was an addictive game, an addictive product.

00:14:28.680 and of course you know it's better to have access to roulette and allow it to be played in a legal

00:14:34.680 and regulated environment um for people that want to play it but the idea that this should be on

00:14:42.020 every device that everyone walks around with and there shouldn't be any limits to the amount people

00:14:47.020 can gamble um and no stake limits and no real checks uh it's a dangerous experiment and i think

00:14:54.640 that unfortunately, you know, we're starting to see the results of it.

00:14:58.520 And Matt, how do you know if you're developing an addiction to gambling?

00:15:02.320 Because I think most people would know by looking at someone

00:15:05.300 that they're developing an addiction to booze.

00:15:07.360 But like you said, on the surface,

00:15:09.160 someone could potentially be a gambling addict

00:15:10.720 and you'd be none the wiser.

00:15:12.840 Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:13.620 I think, I mean, if you're looking for signs in others,

00:15:17.400 I think if someone you know is like never seems to have any money

00:15:21.000 or is withdrawn and not coming out as much.

00:15:23.780 Are you addicted to gambling?

00:15:24.540 i think that that's a that's a sign like but you really do have to read between the lines it's so

00:15:34.440 easy i mean i say it's easy i i've been remember being in that position myself where i was became

00:15:39.360 very good at lying because i'm trying to conceal it and you do it because you think you're protecting

00:15:44.320 other people in a way like you think i don't want people to worry about me so i will you know keep

00:15:48.240 this to myself um but really you know the you need help and i think recognizing that if you're

00:15:56.160 in that cycle of loss chasing if you're gambling is becoming a preoccupation and you're constantly

00:16:01.940 thinking about your next bet that's when it's starting to become an addiction and you know i

00:16:06.340 think at that point it's like good to kind of reflect on that and seek help if you if you need

00:16:13.700 to and you want to because there is help available uh and you can get out of it and it's better to

00:16:19.780 do it early as well i mean the problem at the moment with the regulations is it is it's still

00:16:26.140 a bit of a wild west so you that that it's like exponential curve addiction gambling addiction

00:16:32.900 you start gambling maybe sporadically then you'll start getting really into it and then you'll be

00:16:39.580 gambling more than you thought you would ever start gambling uh and then before you know it

00:16:44.380 you have a session or two where you've lost way more than you had planned to or can afford to

00:16:49.720 and then you're chasing losses and then you've cleaned out your bank account and you think how

00:16:54.400 the hell did that happen so it can happen very quickly and it's a bit like if you start

00:16:59.720 if you start drinking if you start having a few pints when you're in the middle of that drinking

00:17:06.540 session you your judgment is obviously different to before you started and it's the same with

00:17:15.440 gambling once you start gambling when you're in that gambling session it does affect your decision

00:17:20.060 making so yeah this is why i think you know it's it's a really good idea to have proper limits

00:17:26.640 before you start and do they does gambling tend to come with other addictions like do people tend

00:17:31.640 to develop a gambling addiction plus alcoholism or does it live most often on its own there are

00:17:38.120 comorbidities but i think that i mean there are plenty of examples of people that get addicted

00:17:44.860 to just gambling and uh yeah i think that um one might lead to the other in certain circumstances

00:17:52.280 but yeah i think that gambling addiction ought to be treated separately to to other addictions it's

00:17:58.440 not this this person is an addict you know there is different things are happening in the brain

00:18:03.040 with different addictions when you were comparing it to cocaine isn't it more similar to compare it

00:18:07.940 to pornography addiction in a way i'm not sure i don't know much about it pornography addiction

00:18:13.240 but i think you were speaking neurologically when you were talking about cocaine yeah yeah

00:18:17.360 yeah i mean quite possibly quite quite possibly um it but yeah neurologically that's it that

00:18:24.200 it was that research on the parallels with cocaine addiction that shifted there's something

00:18:29.500 called the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders dsm and from dsm4 to dsm5 it

00:18:36.080 moved gambling from an impulse control disorder which i think is where pornography sits still

00:18:41.220 to uh an addiction on the par with drugs and alcohol when we had david nutt on the show to

00:18:48.000 talk about we francis was asking about what predisposes people to alcoholism one of the

00:18:52.780 things she said is there's clearly a genetic component or potentially a genetic component

00:18:57.660 because one of the strongest predictors particularly for men of being addicted to alcohol is a father

00:19:02.580 who's an alcoholic uh is there been any research on what might predispose someone to being addicted

00:19:09.440 to gambling yeah i think there are factors certainly um i mean the genetic question is

00:19:15.860 interesting i think that that could also be behavioral conditioning it could be that you're

00:19:20.780 taking cues from that parent sure if they yeah there's lots of examples of of parents taking

00:19:26.400 their children to the races when they're young you know and they have that good experience and

00:19:31.000 that stays with them and um and that can manifest itself in different ways as you get older but

00:19:36.400 there has definitely been a lot of research into into that i think it's difficult to determine

00:19:43.120 um my from my perspective like yes there may be you may be more vulnerable to gambling addiction

00:19:50.600 if you have a pre-existing mental health condition you know if you have anxiety or if you have other

00:19:56.100 mental health problems um but the thing that we can actually control is the regulation of gambling

00:20:03.380 so that's always been my focus i mean we can't do much about people's genetic predispositions

00:20:09.240 but what we can do is regulate the industry and if there are particular products that are

00:20:14.240 associated with gambling harm then you know it's best to focus on those so if you were going to

00:20:20.060 introduce regulation what would you actually do matt so there's a few things i'd do i mean

00:20:24.520 as i mentioned before the um the gambling legislation at the moment was conceived of

00:20:31.660 at a time before kind of internet gambling really took off and in that legislation there are

00:20:36.420 provisions to regulate stakes and prizes on machines and that's one of the things that

00:20:40.660 we changed with fixed odds betting terminals from 100 pounds down to two pounds of spin

00:20:43.880 and i think that this there's going to be similar controls on the same content online so slots for

00:20:50.460 example there needs to be a limit on two pounds of spin as there is on easily accessible machines

00:20:56.140 in different gambling venues and i think as well as that i'd like to see restrictions on advertising

00:21:03.240 around football i mean i think there's an argument to end all gambling advertising

00:21:07.960 of the industry in its current form given the way it's currently constituted

00:21:12.700 but I can see that why people would argue for kind of carve outs for racing on tv when you know

00:21:18.520 that televised racing kind of depends on gambling ads I would put more money into treatment and

00:21:25.220 research independent research um through a levy on the industry I'd like to see an ombudsman at

00:21:32.340 the moment if you get um i mean this is it's astonishing really this is allowed to to happen

00:21:38.280 but if you're not paid out by a gambling operator or you're treated particularly unfairly there's no

00:21:44.620 consumer ombudsman so they can just take your money and that's it um and on very many occasions

00:21:52.200 they've done this they've also uh been able to because of use of big data and how that's kind

00:21:57.820 of permeated into bookmaking and the operation of gambling uh commercial gambling they're able

00:22:05.300 to kind of predict whether you are going to be a winning gambler so on products like slots and

00:22:10.760 roulette mathematically impossible to win in the long term but in theory you could win in the longer

00:22:16.880 term playing betting on racing or football if you had an edge over the bookmaker or i don't know

00:22:23.040 table tennis or something but if if they're able to they're able to predict that within

00:22:28.100 quite frightening accuracy based on your betting patterns initially how much you're going to win

00:22:33.620 or lose over a 12-month period and if you're not going to be profitable to them then they will

00:22:37.760 restrict your account or close your account and they're allowed to do that and there are

00:22:41.480 very many examples of people who haven't even been making a huge amount of money

00:22:45.940 whose bets get restricted down to 10p 20p just because they're going to win so what people need

00:22:55.660 to be aware of is you can't win and there is no provision or mechanism for consumer redress

00:23:02.040 so if you want to complain to someone you can complain to the gambling commission

00:23:05.760 and they might take enforcement action if there's a breach of the license conditions but

00:23:10.480 they're not going to advocate on your behalf so this is why we need like a gambling ombudsman

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00:24:48.960 And let's explore some of the counter arguments a little bit because we haven't done that yet.

00:24:53.560 So one of the things people might say is, well, I agree with you.

00:24:58.780 Gambling is designed in a way that you can't win, right, over the long term.

00:25:02.340 But people might say it's the same reason why people buy lottery tickets.

00:25:06.180 They're not actually buying a lottery ticket because they think, statistically speaking, this is the best investment of money to grow their portfolio.

00:25:15.120 It's because they enjoy the experience of thinking they might win.

00:25:18.960 So you're not buying a win.

00:25:21.320 You're buying the emotional experience of, oh, I could win.

00:25:25.220 um so isn't isn't that quite a reasonable thing for people to pay for that experience if you like

00:25:32.540 yeah i think this is i completely agree i don't i wouldn't even say that was necessarily a

00:25:37.400 counter argument to what i'm trying to say is it's actually that's true and it is i think it is

00:25:42.840 for many people a form of entertainment yeah and it is a legitimate form of entertainment

00:25:47.200 the problems start when that form of entertainment starts costing people their rent money and starts

00:25:56.680 costing families you know christmas presents and you know all sorts of knock-on effects from

00:26:02.400 gambling that is supposed to be entertainment and you know the gambling industry has been

00:26:07.940 quite resistant to the idea of affordability checks for people who are losing you know

00:26:13.400 significant sums of money but if it is an entertainment product if it is something like

00:26:20.280 equivalent to going to the cinema or you know whatever people do for fun these days i don't

00:26:26.900 know i don't really have much fun you can tell you used to work for jeremy corbin

00:26:31.720 um yeah then you know the the kind of money that's spent on it should arguably be in that

00:26:40.840 kind of ballpark yeah you can't lose 20 grand at the cinema i get it what about um you know the

00:26:46.540 the inevitable comparison with alcohol or whatever like this point the 80 20 rule which is 20 the

00:26:52.660 customers provide 80 of the profits that's how it is in almost every business it'll be the same

00:26:57.240 with trigonometry 20 or probably far fewer than 20 of our viewership will send 80 of the of the

00:27:03.260 money that we use to fund the show right so um in terms of that isn't that the case with everything

00:27:11.520 with alcohol like the people who who provide a lot of the profits for alcohol businesses would

00:27:18.200 be people who drink a lot inevitably right so that's kind of the case everywhere yeah i think

00:27:24.820 80 20 would be an improvement on the current status quo with gambling i mean it's it's about

00:27:30.820 as I said it's about 86-5 at the moment

00:27:33.860 so it does rely significantly on

00:27:37.380 and in that five it's not

00:27:39.120 these people really like gambling

00:27:40.540 I mean some of them might

00:27:41.760 but like it's predominantly people

00:27:43.720 who are losing more than they can afford

00:27:44.760 and are actually not having a great time

00:27:45.960 so I think that that's a factor

00:27:49.760 And what would you think about the argument Matt

00:27:52.320 of people going

00:27:53.000 which is a more dare I say libertarian argument

00:27:55.740 which is look

00:27:56.740 people are adults

00:27:58.820 if people want to do that then they're going to do that you know we live in a free society people 1.00

00:28:06.180 are going to make stupid choices stupid decisions and that's their responsibility as an adult to do 1.00

00:28:11.140 that yeah i think that there is i mean like personally speaking i do take responsibility 1.00

00:28:17.760 had to for my recovery and and like no one's going to recover from my gambling addiction for me

00:28:23.100 um so yeah obviously there is there is that there is that element but i think that we don't talk

00:28:30.400 about is the responsibility of of like the gambling industry and the responsibility of

00:28:34.760 other actors in society like the government and the regulator is it fit for purpose is it doing

00:28:39.320 its job properly and from my perspective they're not being responsible and yeah individual

00:28:47.100 responsibility can only take you so far i also think like the because you get this free market

00:28:51.620 argument as well which is kind of linked to that libertarian argument and i do think that gambling

00:28:58.200 is quite unique in that it does cut across some of the logic of the market because in other sectors

00:29:05.940 of the economy it is in the interest of the vendor or you know the the sector itself providing the

00:29:11.760 service to do so in a way that the consumer um likes and wants to you know return to uh to do

00:29:20.000 so a cost that's, you know, palatable to the individual. But in gambling, there is an antagonism

00:29:26.640 between the consumer and the vendor. The vendor wants to screw the consumer, right? So in that

00:29:33.140 context, the market doesn't work. The market logic doesn't really apply. I think that's why when we

00:29:38.840 started the conversation, that was my hesitation about gambling because I feel, and look, I haven't

00:29:44.780 explored this argument in nearly enough detail to be able to say this is my opinion, but instinctively

00:29:49.600 my feeling was this is a uniquely exploitative industry which really wants to extract all the

00:29:58.120 profit it can from individuals and there's absolutely no intention for that to be a long-term

00:30:02.560 relationship of any kind even a drug dealer wants you to keep coming back whereas from based on what

00:30:08.640 you're saying is it's more like let's get all your money get you bankrupt and then we'll get

00:30:11.980 another someone else yeah but here's another counter argument that i always think about

00:30:15.940 because I definitely have a very addictive personality.

00:30:19.340 And the way I've learned to regulate that for me

00:30:22.340 is I just force myself to get addicted to good things, right?

00:30:26.100 So rather than being addicted to alcohol

00:30:28.340 or, you know, computer games or whatever,

00:30:31.940 which I enjoy, I enjoy playing my games,

00:30:34.640 I enjoy having a drink every now and again,

00:30:36.020 but it's never been that way addictive for me.

00:30:38.980 I try to get addicted to building this

00:30:40.820 to be the best YouTube show that it can be

00:30:43.140 to when I was doing comedy.

00:30:45.060 And I did go quite far in terms of, you know, undermining my relationships and stuff.

00:30:49.460 But still, my point is, I feel that no, and I've done lots of personal development and

00:30:57.620 all that sort of thing.

00:30:58.660 I don't believe that I will never be, I will, I will ever get to a point where I don't find

00:31:04.380 things addictive.

00:31:05.540 And so I've always thought that like addiction quite often, you can, you can deal with someone

00:31:11.900 who's gambling, let's say.

00:31:13.440 but if gambling wasn't available to them they'd probably find something else do you see what i'm

00:31:18.800 saying is that a fair argument i know what you mean and and someone who's become addicted to

00:31:23.420 gambling they may replace it with something else right but but it's it's that void that you replace

00:31:30.420 that you're filling that void with something that you hope would be more productive and more

00:31:36.160 rewarding for that individual i mean gambling is not a rewarding endeavor and the time spent on

00:31:40.820 gambling uh particularly if you're addicted to it um you know it's it's you don't get that time

00:31:47.260 back and that's one of the things that everyone who have known who has been addicted to gambling

00:31:51.820 has lamented more than money that they've lost is you know the the fact that they've because of

00:31:56.420 their because of their addiction that they have have lost the time they've not been they've not

00:32:01.200 been present and i think that you here now you're very present you're very present in the in what

00:32:07.520 you're doing and and obviously you've developed this podcast and you've obviously achieved a lot

00:32:12.300 and that's because of your focus and what gambling does is it strips you of that and it's a very

00:32:18.260 different type of you're immersed in it in a very different way to work and i say that as someone

00:32:23.560 who is equally as obsessed with my work yeah yeah yeah the reason i'm asking this question it came

00:32:28.280 out very muddled and that's because you're the first person we've really spoken about this so

00:32:31.740 i haven't thought these arguments through very much but i guess what i'm saying is i i there's

00:32:36.740 a part of me that sort of cringes a little bit when when we talk about personal responsibility

00:32:41.460 and we're like no no it's it's the industry that needs to because to me at the end of the day

00:32:46.240 there will always be something that you as an individual can be addicted to exploited by etc

00:32:52.200 and until we all start to go well what can i do about this there's always going to be something

00:32:58.920 out there and if it's okay maybe you can regulate gambling people will get addicted to other things

00:33:04.840 that exist out there computer games porn drugs whatever um so that was that was the reason i'm

00:33:10.820 asking the question i feel like yeah i do feel like there's more as an individual that you can

00:33:15.700 do um and i think forgive me for saying this uh on the left particularly and i'm someone who has

00:33:22.140 views from all over the political spectrum there's not enough of you need to take responsibility for

00:33:29.000 yourself and there's too much of the system is to blame and i'm hearing a little bit of that and

00:33:33.800 Hence the sort of the question.

00:33:35.740 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:33:36.340 I think you're saying, yeah.

00:33:37.440 I think that there is always a role for personal responsibility.

00:33:41.700 Of course there is.

00:33:42.280 And people, yeah, people who are addicted to gambling

00:33:47.880 might be listening to this or watching this.

00:33:51.380 You know, hearing me say, well, the industry is not properly regulated

00:33:55.400 and, you know, the harm that they've experienced

00:33:57.900 might have been reduced by better regulation

00:34:00.280 is not going to help them in this particular moment.

00:34:02.180 what might help them is reaching out to the national gambling helpline to the nhs clinics

00:34:09.420 for problem gambling to gamstop to gamban which is blocking software i co-founded if you don't

00:34:16.260 mind plugging it gamban.com um that might help them in that moment and yes they do have to take

00:34:23.780 responsibility for their recovery no one is going to do that for them but i think if we're going to

00:34:28.140 try to reduce gambling addiction I'm not talking about all addictions but gambling addiction and

00:34:33.720 gambling harm and the harm that it causes then there are I believe things we can do in terms

00:34:38.940 of regulation and that's not me saying there's no role for individual responsibility or blaming it

00:34:44.440 all on the industry I'm just sort of saying what are the things practical things we can do and I

00:34:49.320 believe that these are the things we can do you know what I'm a big football fan uh I was gonna

00:34:54.080 to say it like you are but you're an Arsenal fan so you don't really like football sorry I'll get

00:34:57.300 that dig in immediately but I tend to be quite libertarian I think over lockdown I've become

00:35:04.360 even more libertarian with these demented policies that have been brought in and I but I watch the

00:35:09.400 football thanks for keeping the neutral there man it's what it's what it's what we do here

00:35:14.560 and but I watch the football and I'm watching West Ham and then during the interval I just

00:35:19.460 get bombarded with gambling advert after gambling advert after gambling advert and being someone who

00:35:24.720 used to teach and teach you know kids of 10 and 11 and also in secondary school kids love football

00:35:30.920 particularly boys aren't we just indoctrinating them when they're seeing their you know their

00:35:36.260 favorite football team sponsored by gambling adverts when they're watching the football and

00:35:40.580 it's gambling advert after gambling advert ray winston coming out isn't this quite the word

00:35:47.480 big fan of your work right yeah yeah uh not immoral but i do believe that it's almost

00:35:54.160 indoctrinating them isn't it yeah there's a conditioning element to it and there was

00:35:57.620 research in australia that found you know kids as young as six who had quite significant

00:36:02.760 recollection of gambling brands and how to place a bet and what odds meant lots of children growing

00:36:07.800 up now there's other research that shows that they think that placing a bet is part of supporting a

00:36:12.760 team so yes we're storing up i think some problems or challenges for the future with children growing

00:36:18.620 up in this environment because it is it's the first generation to do so so yeah i think that

00:36:24.200 isn't that is an issue i mean i think it's more of an issue given how the industry is currently

00:36:28.120 constituted because you think well what's the problem with kids growing up with you know being

00:36:32.420 bombarded with gambling apps and all that sort of stuff and the problem is that when they turn 18

00:36:38.000 and they are able to download these apps and deposit money is that they are at that most their

00:36:41.880 most vulnerable point uh particularly young men the more young men are um addicted to gambling

00:36:48.620 between the ages of 18 to 24 than any other demographics so so it's that it's the fact 0.67

00:36:54.320 that the industry is constituted in such a way that wants the it needs people to get addicted

00:36:59.740 and you have a very vulnerable demographic who has a rite of passage almost in the same way that

00:37:04.800 perhaps when we turned 18 we went to the pub and had our first legal pint um they're downloading

00:37:11.700 all the gambling apps so i mean that's not something that i even experienced i was gambling

00:37:15.440 on the machines obviously i was already addicted by 18 but i didn't have a smartphone that didn't

00:37:19.960 exist then so like yeah it's it's it's just it's difficult to know what the impact's going to be

00:37:26.360 but the the signs are that it's having a quite a significant negative impact and the lockdown

00:37:31.340 can't have helped either that must have seen problem gambling going through the roof because

00:37:35.320 people sat at home all day you know access to these apps i mean that must have seen profits

00:37:40.800 spike for the gambling companies yeah it did um they had record profits during lockdowns and

00:37:47.680 um like for example online slots increased by 30 during the first lockdown so substantial

00:37:54.540 increases and yeah profits increased despite the cancellation of sports fixtures in lockdown one

00:38:00.540 so like just shows like the shift to the more kind of addictive products and yeah i mean it did have

00:38:07.080 a profound effect and it's accelerated the switch from venue-based gambling to online gambling which

00:38:13.780 is why I think the government's review which is ongoing at the moment and we're expecting hopefully

00:38:18.140 the white paper to be published in April it's why it's kind of so important that the focus on

00:38:24.460 online gambling regulation. I'm curious because now the gambling culture exists in Russia not

00:38:31.800 nearly in the same way that but it when I was growing up in the Soviet Union it wasn't really

00:38:35.820 a thing that people did but in this country as a for as an outsider i can see it's a huge part of

00:38:41.620 the culture right you go to the game you have a little cheeky bet you go to the races you have a 0.86

00:38:46.800 bet like it's part of it's been around i'm guessing for for centuries do you do you have any insight

00:38:53.040 into as to why that is why this culture particularly is has that embedded in it so strongly you mean

00:39:00.540 like the link between sporting events but just a bet in general is something that is not the same

00:39:06.280 in other countries you know yeah it's interesting i i don't know what the origins are um but yeah

00:39:12.800 there's definitely something that's it's always been part of you know the experience the match

00:39:17.160 day experience you know or obviously guys at racing wouldn't racing and betting coexist you

00:39:21.760 know the mutually you couldn't have one without the other so it's always been a part of our

00:39:26.660 culture has always been a part of of that experience but you know i'm not saying that

00:39:32.080 that shouldn't be the case you just want to regulate it that that's it and and you know it's

00:39:37.340 i think it's there's a spectrum of prohibition which obviously i'm not in favor of

00:39:44.080 uh promotion and liberalization and tolerating something and you know returning to this

00:39:53.340 principle of unstimulated demand it's saying that if people want to do it they're going to do it

00:39:57.500 they should do it in a regulated and safe environment but should we be encouraging it

00:40:02.940 or promoting it to the extent that we are i'm not saying that necessarily that's shouldn't be

00:40:07.120 permitted you know at racetracks or whatever but there's just a conversation i think a grown-up

00:40:11.660 conversation to be had about like where it sits between these two between like unstimulated demand

00:40:18.000 and promotion and uh yeah i mean reformers gambling reformers like me constantly often

00:40:25.560 caricatured in some ways like prohibitionist because we want to have more regulation and i

00:40:30.660 think that that kind of is unhelpful because i think really that that's where the debate is

00:40:35.860 being had and that's thankfully what the debate the government's kind of willing to have as well

00:40:40.380 well we really appreciate you coming on thank you so much for that it's been a great chat uh tell

00:40:46.440 everybody uh where they can go if they if they've got an issue with gambling if they want to support

00:40:51.160 the work that you are doing etc yeah great if you've got an issue with gambling go to talk

00:40:55.520 bandstop.com and there's uh lots of information on there and free advice and support and you can

00:41:01.880 get gamban for free through talkbandstop.com um and if you're interested in the gambling reform

00:41:08.900 work that i'm doing then cleanupgambling.com and there's stuff on there about what we're

00:41:14.360 campaigning for and there's a template letter to mps and all that sort of stuff so if you want to

00:41:18.520 get involved that'd be great and yeah by all means get in touch i'm happy to hear from anyone all

00:41:22.840 right fantastic thank you so much uh guys thank you so much for watching and listening well we're

00:41:27.040 going to ask matt a couple of very special questions from you for our locals only but in

00:41:31.440 the meantime we will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or raw show all of

00:41:36.820 them go out at 7 p.m uk time and for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go it's also

00:41:40.920 available as a podcast take care and see you soon guys people on the left are like why you

00:41:47.620 still remember the load party why you still why would you vote for the load party the reason i

00:41:51.080 would vote for it is to destroy it

TRIGGERnometry - March 07, 2022

Gambling Companies Turn Addiction Into Profit

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