TRIGGERnometry - “Gender Is Not a Social Construct” - Debra Soh

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is the

00:00:11.600 show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people and a fascinating guest

00:00:17.960 we have for you today she is a former academic sex researcher neuroscientist and she is the author

00:00:23.600 of the upcoming book the end of gender dr deborah so welcome to trigonometry

00:00:28.760 Hi, guys. Thank you for having me.

00:00:30.760 Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. We loved reading the book. Really fascinating stuff,

00:00:34.660 which we'll get into in a moment. But for anyone who doesn't know who you are,

00:00:38.500 just tell everybody who are you? How are you where you are?

00:00:41.500 What is the journey that brings you here talking to us through this weird medium?

00:00:45.780 So I am a science journalist. I write primarily about the science of gender and sex, human

00:00:51.020 sexuality. I write about the politicization of science and also academic censorship.

00:00:57.020 I can talk a bit about how I left academia and ended up in journalism.

00:01:00.880 So during the last few years of my PhD, my PhD is in sexual neuroscience research.

00:01:06.200 And I had noticed that the climate in academia had changed.

00:01:10.040 So I noticed there were more and more topics that you couldn't really speak about.

00:01:14.780 Researchers didn't want to touch because they were growing increasingly controversial

00:01:18.180 and they didn't want to deal with the public backlash.

00:01:20.780 One issue in particular had to do with transitioning in young children with gender dysphoria.

00:01:26.560 So at that time, pretty much every single mainstream news piece would say that if you

00:01:31.740 have a young child with gender dysphoria, the best way forward for them would be to transition.

00:01:37.240 So that would usually include, you know, getting a different haircut, taking on a different

00:01:41.020 name, identifying as the opposite sex.

00:01:43.140 Every news piece was saying this is really great for these kids.

00:01:46.060 The parents would say that the child is doing so much better after.

00:01:49.080 But from a scientific perspective, all of the research available shows that most of

00:01:54.260 these kids who feel gender dysphoric, the vast majority of them, when they reach puberty,

00:01:58.040 they will outgrow those feelings. They're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood.

00:02:02.340 And so I felt it was important to say something about this. I wrote an op-ed and I waited about

00:02:06.540 six months to publish it because I knew that there would be a lot of backlash. I wasn't sure

00:02:11.020 if it was going to be the right decision. I asked a number of my colleagues and mentors,

00:02:14.560 and they were very supportive of me. I remember one conversation in particular with one mentor,

00:02:19.640 and I asked him, should I wait until I have tenure? So at that time, I planned to stay in

00:02:23.780 academia. I had a whole plan in terms of the research I wanted to be doing. And he told me

00:02:28.380 tenure would not protect me. So that was that sealed my decision. And I decided to have the

00:02:33.860 op-ed published. And then since then, I've self-exiled from academia and I work as a journalist.

00:02:39.680 And now I'm here speaking with you. You are. Yeah. How far you've fallen.

00:02:45.040 But listen, before we get into the subject matter itself, I actually will just responding to what

00:02:52.600 you've just said I mean tenure is the idea just for people like us you're not into the academic

00:02:57.420 world is the idea that you have a job for life right it's protections because the point of being

00:03:03.640 an academic especially a scientist is that you should be able to pursue novel research questions

00:03:09.340 and not be afraid of what you're going to find so tenure essentially protects you that no matter

00:03:13.500 what you find I mean most researchers are going to be responsible then it's not like they're it's

00:03:18.120 going to be a free-for-all and they're going to go digging for you know terrible things but it is

00:03:22.540 You need to be able to have that protection if you're going to do your job properly as an academic.

00:03:27.440 And so definitely now, I would say even in 2020, it's so much worse now.

00:03:32.060 There's no such thing as protection.

00:03:34.120 Well, this is what I want to get into.

00:03:36.120 The institution of tenure was designed specifically for this purpose,

00:03:39.920 to allow scientists to research things that may not be popular in the moment

00:03:44.200 so that they can't be punished for discovering the wrong thing, let's say.

00:03:48.540 uh what did what did that meant to mean when they said tenure will not protect you like tenure is

00:03:54.020 supposed to protect you why wouldn't it protect you well especially within sex research there's 0.90

00:03:59.080 a very long and ugly history uh between sex researchers and transgender activists where 0.53

00:04:05.260 if an expert says something that upsets activist groups they will go after the researcher and

00:04:10.900 really try to destroy that person not only that person's professional reputation but their personal

00:04:14.760 reputation and their life. And there was one case of one sex researcher, Michael Bailey,

00:04:19.940 who is a professor of psychology at Northwestern University. He published a book in, I believe it

00:04:25.780 was 2003, that really upset trans activists. And they went after him. And in my book, I talk about

00:04:33.660 all the things that they did to him, which were really terrible and unethical. And so after that

00:04:40.280 happened everyone in sex research said you know this is not something i want to go through i don't

00:04:45.000 it's just not worth it so everyone just stays quiet about these issues now and so with that

00:04:49.720 op-ed they were saying to me and i knew too you know if you say anything that upsets activists

00:04:54.620 and particularly transgender activists it's going to not be very nice for you and why is it that 1.00

00:05:02.160 people just don't stand up to these people isn't that what you mean to do with bullies just stand

00:05:06.360 up to them and say and say to them that that's unacceptable you would think so and i think part

00:05:12.880 of what it is is is academics are so busy with their research and their you know they're teaching

00:05:17.560 they've got administrative duties they're pushed basically to their boundaries in terms of what

00:05:22.380 they're capable of as human beings and they're exhausted all the time so the last thing you want

00:05:25.960 to do is incite a mob and have to go on social media and fight with them so i think that's part

00:05:30.500 of it and i think also activists are really empowered by journalists and and and i think

00:05:37.200 the public to some degree because people feel they're on the quote-unquote right side of history

00:05:40.660 by defending them so it really is an uphill battle and after you see a number of your colleagues

00:05:45.840 everyone in sex research who has spoken up about this gets you know smeared gets attacked gets

00:05:51.740 mobbed on social media and so i think it has to be you have to have a very specific personality

00:05:55.560 to want to do that and i'm sure you guys have that personality but i think not everybody does so

00:06:00.920 that that's how we got to where we are and and deborah why i still don't understand why is it

00:06:07.600 so toxic i mean 20 years ago that's a woman that's a man we all agreed on it and then we went on with 0.69

00:06:13.920 our lives why is it suddenly everybody kicking off on the internet about it i think part of it

00:06:21.160 and I should emphasize, so I'm critical of transitioning in children. I do support

00:06:25.180 transitioning in adults. I do think transitioning can help some people. And so, especially for

00:06:29.880 adults, it's their business. I don't think anyone should be telling them what they can and can't do

00:06:33.360 with their bodies. But I think part of this response, especially in the current age, is due

00:06:39.160 to seeing what happened with the gay rights movement. And I'm a huge supporter of gay rights,

00:06:43.020 a group in the gay community. And I think many people look back on that period of homophobia,

00:06:47.720 And homophobia still exists today in society, but I do think it's gotten better to some degree.

00:06:52.800 I think people look back on that and they say, okay, we made so many mistakes in that way.

00:06:56.820 So now going forward, when it comes to how people identify or anything that has to do with gender or sexuality, we're going to fully support that.

00:07:05.700 And I think it's gone so far in the opposite direction now that anyone like myself who criticizes that,

00:07:10.720 even when they're coming from a scientific perspective gets shouted down and told that

00:07:15.220 they're hateful and that they're bigoted and that they're transphobic okay and look there's some

00:07:20.480 things deborah that i'm gonna ask to clarify because like i said before i was understanding

00:07:25.980 this was a man this is a woman now i'm very confused okay what does the term gender is

00:07:31.740 what is gender what's the difference between sex and gender number one so biological sex

00:07:37.960 is determined by gametes. So these are mature reproductive cells. So you produce sperm or you

00:07:43.940 produce eggs. The vast majority of people, 99% of us, our gender is our biological sex. So gender

00:07:50.400 identity has to do with how you feel, whether you feel masculine or feminine. Gender expression is

00:07:55.280 related to that in terms of how you express your gender identity. So whether you are gender

00:07:59.580 conforming, say gender non-conforming, as a man, you typically will be masculine in the way you

00:08:04.660 dress and the way you carry yourself and similarly someone who's female is going to be feminine 0.97

00:08:08.240 and with regard to gender dysphoria so gender dysphoria is feeling as though a person identifies

00:08:15.280 more as the opposite sex than their birth sex okay now where does the term gender as a social

00:08:22.140 construct come in because this is a term that keeps being bandied about what does that actually

00:08:27.820 mean and do you agree with it i don't agree with it because it's not true and people will say

00:08:34.020 that's very problematic the truth is important wow yeah we're gonna get canceled for like the

00:08:42.280 10th time this week so uh what was i saying so gender is not a social construct it's very much

00:08:48.420 based in biology and even for people who are transgender there's a biological element to

00:08:52.460 why they feel the way that they do so gender when people say gender is a social construct it means

00:08:57.920 that uh gender roles are imposed by society so people learn their gender they're socialized to

00:09:04.340 be masculine or feminine and that and usually tied into that is the idea that there are no

00:09:09.980 biologically based sex differences between men and women in the brain or in relation to uh say

00:09:16.200 occupational interest basically anything across the board so if your audience remembers the google

00:09:20.920 memo that happened in 2017 i wrote a column for the globe and mail defending james demore

00:09:26.120 um and then that that column got picked up quite a bit and people were very upset at me but i feel

00:09:32.080 it's again important to be forthright about these things the weird thing is though gender that the 0.91

00:09:37.560 whole gender is a social construct this is reported now in mainstream news and it's 1.00

00:09:43.700 repeated ad nauseum as though it's true like there's no there's no people don't back it up

00:09:50.380 they don't qualify it they simply just say we know gender is a social construct and they get

00:09:55.040 on to saying whatever they were saying and i'm thinking but that's not true so it's it's really

00:09:59.800 crazy to me to see how this science denial is is just basically accepted at face value well isn't

00:10:07.180 there a baron cohen study which shows that day-old babies uh male and female babies are attracted to

00:10:14.340 different things male babies are attracted to objects and female baby more attracted to objects

00:10:19.020 female babies are more attracted to uh anthropomorphic type dolls and things like 1.00

00:10:23.780 isn't that something just like that obvious so even babies are problematic absolutely mate

00:10:29.060 well yeah because his research there have been studies where they will um take newborn babies

00:10:35.800 and they will find that the females the girls will prefer looking at faces and the boys will

00:10:41.000 prefer looking at mobiles or mechanical objects and so what then people who support the argument

00:10:45.840 that gender is a social construct they will say well these children have already been born for so 0.84

00:10:51.060 long and they've managed to learn gender stereotypes in the time i know i'm looking at

00:10:54.220 your face my face isn't being shown to the audience but then i'll make it so that it's

00:10:58.680 visible their newborn then when did they when did they imbibe these gender stereotypes in in the 0.82

00:11:05.860 womb like when well this is this is what i say because there's research to show that even in

00:11:10.920 the womb before the brain is finished developing there are differences between male and female 0.99

00:11:14.560 fetuses really unless someone wants unless someone wants to argue that a child is capable of learning

00:11:19.700 gender stereotypes before they're born, which I would honestly not be surprised if someone 1.00

00:11:23.700 were to argue that now, because that's how far this conversation has gone. But I do understand,

00:11:29.440 you know, and I think since writing that column in 2017, I understand why people find sex

00:11:34.980 differences, especially when it comes to any biologically based ones, why they find it

00:11:38.320 so threatening. And, you know, mostly women, but I think some men find it threatening too,

00:11:43.260 because if you are in favor of gender equality, there's this message that men and women have to

00:11:47.980 be the same and if there are any differences this is due to sexism and we have to fix that and i

00:11:53.840 think it's totally fine to acknowledge that men and women are different but that doesn't mean one

00:11:58.040 is better than the other and as long as everyone is content with what they're doing in life and

00:12:02.440 they don't feel limited then that's really what matters and why do you mind if i just ask yeah

00:12:08.200 i don't know if you would have seen our interview with um posy parker i did you did do you remember

00:12:14.820 at me having a bit of a disagreement with her, or rather me trying to put the counterpoint,

00:12:19.980 I suppose, about the brain. So can you clarify that for us? Is there such a thing as a male

00:12:26.860 brain and a female brain? On average, there are differences between what you would find typically

00:12:33.640 in men and typically in women. So that doesn't say anything about any individual person. So that's

00:12:37.720 one important point. And that's not to say there's not a lot of overlap between the two as well.

00:12:42.160 but statistically speaking if you look on average at a group of male versus female brains there will

00:12:47.000 be some differences so it's not accurate to say that that their you know brains are identical or

00:12:52.720 all right so let me just take that to its logical conclusion which is what i tried to do with her 0.99

00:12:57.460 which is if there is a difference on average between male brains and female brains would it 0.99

00:13:02.500 not be therefore credible to argue that somebody can be born in a female body with a male brain

00:13:07.780 and so the that yeah that is the common understanding of uh when people say that

00:13:13.720 they are transgender right so with the research that's available with regard to brain imaging and

00:13:19.440 trans people um they it does show that for say someone who's a trans woman her brain is slightly

00:13:25.460 feminized so she was born male identifies as female and her brain is slightly in the direction of 1.00

00:13:30.500 the sex she identifies as and similarly for trans men so trans men were born female identifies male

00:13:36.480 and their brains are shifted in the direction again of the sex they identify as. But the thing

00:13:41.640 is with these studies, they are conflated with or confounded with sexual orientation because

00:13:47.360 everyone who takes part in these studies are also attracted to people who share their birth sex.

00:13:53.120 So in sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, which is my former discipline,

00:13:57.760 when you talk about sexual orientation in relation to people who are transgender,

00:14:01.180 it's in relation to their birth sex so for a trans woman who is again born male identifies

00:14:07.060 as female if she's attracted to men she's considered gay because she is attracted to

00:14:13.500 people who share her birth sex and so similarly for trans men if they are attracted to

00:14:20.240 women then that's considered gay because attracted again to people who share their birth sex so

00:14:26.080 All of this is to say that in the brain, there have been shown to be differences associated with sexual orientation.

00:14:33.780 So when we look at the brains of people who are transgender versus people who are not transgender, with these studies, we don't know if those brain differences we're seeing are due to them feeling transgender or feeling gender dysphoric or due to the fact that they're attracted to people who share their birth sex.

00:14:49.400 And there was one study, I believe it was last year, that got a lot of attention, media attention, because it was showing in children with gender dysphoria that their brains are similar, again, shifted in the direction of the sex they identify as.

00:15:01.620 This shows that these children really are the other sex and that we should support early transitioning. 1.00

00:15:07.320 But again, the sexual orientation of those kids was not reported.

00:15:12.180 And so you can't make that assumption.

00:15:14.740 and deborah you are quite critical in the book about allowing children to transition

00:15:21.640 now to me this seems as a former teacher this seems fairly common sense but could you explain

00:15:27.360 to people why is it that we shouldn't be allowing children to transition especially at a prepubescent

00:15:33.840 age as well as i mentioned a little bit earlier in the interview the vast majority of these kids

00:15:40.160 who feel that they were born in the wrong body when they reach puberty they're going to outgrow

00:15:44.740 those feelings of gender dysphoria and they're more likely to identify as gay in adulthood and

00:15:49.880 so it doesn't make sense for them to transition at a young age before this point because it would

00:15:55.320 be completely unnecessary and and research has shown that children who even if they socially

00:16:00.120 transition because critics will say well social transition is nothing all you do is they you know

00:16:04.600 you give them a different name and they can easily change their minds but social transitioning is

00:16:09.620 associated with persistence of gender dysphoria so children who do take on a name of the sex that

00:16:15.380 they identify as and are treated as though they are they are the opposite sex are more likely to

00:16:19.520 go on than to seek other interventions in terms of medically and it's it's difficult i think too

00:16:25.780 for kids to come back from that i mean i think people really underestimate how difficult it can

00:16:32.620 be for a child to say you know i thought i was the opposite sex but now i'm not and i've talked

00:16:37.200 to detransitioners about this we can talk about that too who will say that it's it can be very

00:16:42.420 embarrassing to get everyone in your life to call you you know the opposite sex and a new name and

00:16:47.460 say that you're sure about this and then say actually no i i wasn't sure about it i'm actually

00:16:52.000 curious but when you say that for instance about you feel as a teacher that's obvious why is that

00:16:56.440 because the feeling i get from a lot of people is that well of course we would help them transition

00:17:01.220 why wouldn't we i mean that's actually what i used to think i used to think of course put them on

00:17:04.700 on these drugs to help them. Well, no, the reason I thought is because I know children and a child

00:17:10.080 is not capable of making those decisions at such a young age. Well, you would know far better than

00:17:15.320 me, but a child is not able to, I think it comes at the age of 14, 15. Well, but it certainly is

00:17:21.460 a 10, 11 year old. They're not able to understand consequences. A lot of the time you see teachers

00:17:25.860 telling off a child and saying, well, what do you think would happen when you did X? And the kid

00:17:29.980 shrugs its shoulders because it doesn't understand consequences so essentially you're asking a child

00:17:35.300 to make a life-changing decision before they understand that concept to me it seemed ludicrous

00:17:40.600 but then maybe i'm just problematic but you see this also i mean kids as young as age three are

00:17:47.420 being taken to gender clinics i'm thinking three years have no three three they have no idea what 0.59

00:17:53.300 they're saying at that point and parents i think part of it is parents are seeing all of this in

00:17:58.360 you know news coverage and they're talking to their parents and they they're some of them I

00:18:02.540 think genuinely think maybe that their child needs treatment but I think some other parents

00:18:06.780 are really excited about this because it means their child is special and that this might be

00:18:10.880 you know some form of I don't think the majority of parents feel this way but I think there are

00:18:14.940 some who who really revel in that and what is the rate of detransition with these kids is it quite a

00:18:21.840 lot of them a significant amount of them or is it quite a low amount so there was one study in

00:18:26.820 sweden that showed that two percent of people who underwent a change in terms of the sex marker on

00:18:32.880 their government id subsequently went and changed it back to their birth sex but that is in adults

00:18:39.160 and that that study the data collection i believe was done in 2011 so there we don't have data in

00:18:43.860 terms of young children we don't have data in terms of especially this more recent spike in

00:18:48.500 terms of rapid onset gender dysphoria which we're seeing in predominantly young adolescent girls

00:18:54.560 So I can talk about rapid onset gender dysphoria as well, but we just don't know at this point.

00:18:59.580 So I see it being very, very unfortunate and ugly what's coming in a couple of years.

00:19:06.880 Well, this is the point.

00:19:07.800 And you talk about rapid onset gender dysphoria.

00:19:09.980 It might be helpful for our audience if you define it.

00:19:11.760 But if I give you my kind of layman understanding is over the last few years, there's been a massive increase, like 4,000% or something crazy in the number of young girls.

00:19:23.600 and young women who who seem to decide to transition in clusters in other words it like

00:19:30.620 happens at a school that a lot of the girls there suddenly all transition is that broadly speaking

00:19:35.880 correct yeah yeah it is um so what will usually happen is one of these young women their their 1.00

00:19:43.040 close friend will come out as a trans boy and then the next thing you know she comes home from school

00:19:47.860 and tells her parents i want to be a boy and the parents are really at a loss because if you take

00:19:52.040 a child to a gender clinic they have to affirm that child so uh in terms of the the prevalence

00:19:58.280 so lisa lippman did a study in 2018 about this and she found that among friend groups 40 percent

00:20:05.160 of uh these girls would have at least half of their friend group identifying as transgender 0.99

00:20:10.420 which is a lot and this is 70 times the what you would normally find in the general population in

00:20:16.200 terms of statistical prevalence of adults who identify as transgender so and why are girls more

00:20:21.500 More likely now, because it used to be that it was mainly males that would transition, effeminate males, let's say, I'm not saying that in a judgmental way, just in a kind of descriptive way, they would transition, they were much more likely to transition than women.

00:20:36.160 Now that seems to have been completely changed in such a short period of time.

00:20:40.040 Why do you think it is that girls are doing this? 1.00

00:20:44.480 I think for many of them, they're experiencing discomfort in their bodies, which is very normal.

00:20:48.820 that's a normal part of growing up reaching puberty and adolescence everyone feels awkward

00:20:53.580 and uncomfortable but instead now they're being told on social media and and everywhere basically

00:20:59.920 that if you are uncomfortable with your sex that you must be the opposite sex so if you are a woman 0.95

00:21:06.000 who doesn't like having her period or you don't like male attention potentially that that means 0.99

00:21:12.940 you should be a man and no one is saying to them because it's considered transphobic to say so to

00:21:18.080 say it's okay to feel different as a young woman and especially for a lot of them they have other

00:21:23.260 mental health conditions like autism a lot of them have anxiety they have eating disorders

00:21:28.060 they're self-harming and this is a way for them to cope with the way they're feeling and i think

00:21:34.460 too you know i'm very critical of a lot of feminist dogma but i do think in some ways society can still 0.93

00:21:40.220 be sexist and for these young women it's an easy way to avoid sexism or homophobia also if they're

00:21:45.760 lesbian a lot of these young women are lesbian and so to them it's it's easier to be a man than 0.77

00:21:51.920 to be a lesbian woman and do you think part of the problem as well again going back to my teaching 0.90

00:21:56.860 experience i saw social media come in particularly instagram particularly the pressure it puts on

00:22:01.920 young girls to look a certain way their bodies to be a certain shape or whatever else and it's just 0.98

00:22:06.980 a very easy way just to go i want no part of this i'm going to be completely different and now i'm

00:22:13.480 going to be i'm not going to have to abide by those rules yeah i would agree with that and i

00:22:18.560 think also pornography from what i've been told by speaking with these young women who have

00:22:22.540 detransitioned they they will be exposed to porn at a very young age you know that's just how it

00:22:27.580 is everyone on the phone now it's it's you know very easy to get access and they'll say i don't

00:22:32.200 they think that that's what sex real life sex is going to be like they don't realize that

00:22:37.040 pornography is entertainment and this is really the peak moment of of sex between two people or

00:22:43.660 however many people so you know they think i don't want that i don't want to be objectified like that

00:22:48.340 they don't want to be objectified by society understandably so and so again this is a way to

00:22:52.780 just avoid the whole thing you know it sounds so tragic what you're describing because you know

00:22:58.720 you're saying that you're what you're basically saying is these young women are already vulnerable

00:23:03.540 and we've created a structure for them that affirms choices that don't actually match who

00:23:11.860 they are but at every step of the way the adults are going oh yeah yeah this is the right way for

00:23:16.920 you to go uh now if if you are right and i suspect that you are then that wave of detransitioners 1.00

00:23:25.700 that you're talking about is coming and i mean that's going to be even worse because there's

00:23:31.360 going to be thousands of people who've gone through a very invasive process in many cases

00:23:36.740 being i mean just horrified at what what they've done to themselves and what the adults around them

00:23:44.800 allowed them to do isn't that is i mean is that coming oh yeah yeah it's i mean it's already

00:23:49.980 partially here i would say over in the uk i think you guys are seeing it the start of it before

00:23:54.820 north america people are still very much in denial about it because what you will hear when

00:23:59.900 if you talk about detransitioners detransitioners are supposedly a quote-unquote myth and then it's

00:24:05.720 it's statistically so rare it never happens but those people were never really trans those people

00:24:10.520 were never really gender dysphoric and that that's not true and you know i also criticize in the book

00:24:15.480 the non-binary movement because i think this is similar in that so before it would very much be

00:24:21.720 if if someone wants if uncomfortable with their birth sex they will identify as transgender now

00:24:27.500 there's also non-binary which with that community comes for many people having a double mastectomy

00:24:34.560 so again i have no issue people want to try on different genders or identities i think that's

00:24:39.080 normal as part of the development developmental process but when you start getting involved with

00:24:44.000 surgery and when we're not actually talking about what this is really about you know that's that's

00:24:50.260 my issue i think it's one thing if we could have these conversations and these individuals were

00:24:55.340 saying i still think this is the right thing for me then i would feel a bit more comfortable but

00:24:59.620 you can't have that conversation i think people are going to be very upset by what i say in the

00:25:03.440 book because these are things you're not supposed to say but i think they need to be said and do

00:25:08.700 you think part of the problem as well is that you know these people these children are identifying

00:25:12.640 as trans without realizing that if you're a trans person you're essentially going to become 0.66

00:25:17.260 medicalized for the rest of your life yeah and at that age like you're saying they're they're not

00:25:22.540 fully developed cognitively in terms of their emotional maturity. I don't think they're

00:25:27.740 necessarily thinking that far ahead. And this is why I'm appalled at the adults. Why are parents

00:25:33.340 and medical professionals not seeing this for what it is? But I think they similarly have been

00:25:38.420 cowardly. They're afraid of being called transphobic. In some cases, you can lose your 0.89

00:25:43.200 license. We actually have a law in Canada that's trying to be passed right now to actually send

00:25:48.620 someone to prison if they conduct so-called conversion therapy, which conversion therapy

00:25:53.300 for sexual orientation is not acceptable. I don't support that at all because it does not work. It's 1.00

00:25:58.020 not ethical. Conversion therapy for gender identity does not exist. If you have a clinician

00:26:03.160 who sits down with a child and wants to understand what else is going on in their life that may lead

00:26:07.580 them to feeling gender dysphoric, that's considered conversion therapy now, where gender identity in

00:26:12.280 children is more flexible with age. So a child, again, who says they are the opposite sex can grow

00:26:18.040 to feel comfortable in their birth sex with age and i don't think it's considered it should be

00:26:21.860 considered transphobic to say that but now mental health professionals cannot have these conversations

00:26:27.160 they cannot do a proper assessment with these children so they really just have to allow them

00:26:32.220 anyone to anyone who wants to transition is basically the complete opposite of medical

00:26:35.980 gatekeeping now so anyone who is against this they they don't work with these patients anymore

00:26:41.340 so so so what what do you do as a parent so for instance a friend of mine her daughter at the age

00:26:48.040 of 11 years old told her that she wanted to transition and she didn't say if she said when

00:26:53.320 i transition what what does a parent do if every all the authorities all the medical professionals

00:27:00.380 seem to be pushing this kid down one particular path which is going to change her body and 1.00

00:27:08.320 mutilate it forever i think the number one thing for parents every parent that i've spoken to has

00:27:14.440 said that taking a child to a gender clinic actually makes things worse because the it it 0.75

00:27:20.160 feeds into it doesn't they don't challenge the child right so then it becomes an issue of

00:27:25.340 the child is then turned against the parents and now these kids are being encouraged to if your

00:27:31.800 if your parents or people in your life your family don't support you cut them off so that can be you

00:27:37.900 know very very devastating for the parents i would say just love your kid i have some suggestions i

00:27:42.960 interviewed one of my colleagues dr susan bradley who is a world expert in autism and gender dysphoria

00:27:48.680 and so she had some really good suggestions in terms of what to do and help to keep the

00:27:53.340 conversation going with your child and and i think just one thing i would say is try to limit the

00:27:58.480 exposure your child has to social media which is i guess something to start at a younger age just

00:28:02.540 to try and keep them off those platforms as much as possible because that's really

00:28:06.000 where this ideology starts and it's it's really strong because kids you know they are very

00:28:11.400 malleable and when they're exposed to this and they think I feel different and this is the

00:28:15.700 solution to the way I feel I think it can be really a an addictive thing to grab onto

00:28:22.660 and there is a link as well between autism and children that transition has that been fully

00:28:31.400 explored or is that just something that we're noticing no it's very very common and even in

00:28:36.680 that study uh on rapid onset gender dysphoria i can't remember the exact number the percentage

00:28:41.040 but there was definitely a correlation there so that's the other thing because you know i think

00:28:45.840 people with autism again deserve respect and love and and we should be able to say you know if this

00:28:51.860 is some if this is what is leading you to feel a certain way because for some people who are

00:28:56.320 with autism they are very um they fixate on things so they'll go through periods of being

00:29:03.200 really really into especially children they'll go through periods of being really into one thing

00:29:06.800 like a toy and then they'll be into something else and something else and so gender could be one of 0.97

00:29:10.880 those topics that they latch on to and they're really into for a while but eventually it will

00:29:15.880 pass not to say that's the case for all of them because there are some kids right who do end up

00:29:20.060 persisting but um i think in today's climate you it's really difficult for us to be able to tease

00:29:25.640 apart who's going to legitimately persist and who's going to desist or not feel that way anymore

00:29:30.000 because we're again we're not talking about that we're not talking about any other any other

00:29:34.480 potential explanations for the way someone feels so what would be a healthy way to treat people

00:29:40.620 who present as having gender dysphoria as in a discomfort about their sex and gender being

00:29:47.440 different what would be a healthy way for us to deal with that well i should state i'm i'm not

00:29:53.480 a clinician, I don't do clinical work anymore and I don't work with these children or this

00:29:58.380 population. But I would say more broadly, just from conversations I've had with my colleagues

00:30:02.160 who do this work to just get a sense of what else is going on in the child's life. Are there

00:30:06.900 other reasons for them feeling this way? For a lot of kids who say they are the opposite sex,

00:30:11.180 because that's usually what critics of someone like me will say, well, these kids, you can tell

00:30:16.980 the ones who are truly gender dysphoric from the ones who are not, because they will say,

00:30:20.600 I am the opposite sex. But a lot of kids will say that just because that's the only language they

00:30:25.580 have to communicate. They want to do things the opposite sex does. So if the parent says, 0.99

00:30:30.560 you're a little boy, you can't play with the easy bake oven, the little boy will say, well,

00:30:34.740 I am a girl as a way of saying, well, I should be able to do things that girls do. And I think

00:30:39.440 also to look at the family dynamic and look at other ways that the child may be using their

00:30:44.200 gender to maybe get attention from their parents or get praise, things like that. And I mean,

00:30:49.220 i even feel bad saying these things now because i feel i don't want to make life more difficult for

00:30:53.260 this you know trans people but again no one is saying this stuff and these are things that are

00:30:58.520 just taken for like we know in the field that this is these are important questions to be asking

00:31:03.680 it makes a lot of sense listen let's talk about men and women a little bit and it's a great

00:31:09.620 frustration for francis and i because we get someone who's extremely intelligent well educated

00:31:16.900 who's written great stuff, who's done amazing research like you or Jeffrey Miller or Dana

00:31:21.980 Fleischman or evolutionary psych, Brett Weinstein, whatever. And we end up saying, Deborah, please

00:31:27.820 tell us the difference between men and women. Like, like no one knows what it is. You know

00:31:31.860 what I mean? But, but just let's talk about that because I think one of the crucial points you make

00:31:37.740 in the book is it's not necessary for people to be treated equally. It's not necessary to pretend

00:31:44.380 that we're the same right so what is a man and what is a woman i'm a man mate

00:31:50.920 is that how you identify now is it yeah country to all evidence

00:31:58.640 well i was gonna say i have a chapter in the book about sex and dating and i think i'm i'm

00:32:04.760 actually amazed the number of young people who reach out to me who are experiencing mass confusion

00:32:09.200 about how to approach romantic relationships, even casual sex. I mean, it just feels like,

00:32:15.800 it sounds like an absolute jungle. And so, you know, I write in that chapter about there are

00:32:21.300 differences between men and women in terms of our sexual systems. And this serves us very well from 0.93

00:32:26.240 an evolutionary perspective. And we don't have to pretend that men and women are identical in the

00:32:30.800 bedroom for us to have equal rights and to have respect in our relationships. And I'm just, I'm

00:32:35.780 amazed at how much misinformation is out there and i'm you i would think that most people like

00:32:42.060 you're saying know these things but i feel like there's so much indoctrination i don't know if

00:32:48.400 it's because this is what people are being taught in university but i sense young people really have

00:32:53.140 they're lost they're completely lost so what are some of the key points that people should

00:32:57.840 just be reminded of well i would say something like um with casual sex i think there's a pressure

00:33:05.460 for young women to feel like they should have casual sex or they should enjoy it. And for the 0.97

00:33:09.660 most part, I mean, almost consistently in the research, well, consistently in the research,

00:33:13.880 men prefer casual sex more than women. And this would make sense from an evolutionary perspective 0.72

00:33:18.200 because for men, the investment from sex is much smaller than for women. For women,

00:33:23.960 there's a chance of pregnancy and then also raising the child. And evolutionary psychology,

00:33:28.440 I think it's a really bad reputation because people think it's outdated. They say it's sexist.

00:33:34.220 I don't think that's the case.

00:33:35.580 I think by denying these truths, it's actually making life more difficult for women and men 0.98

00:33:41.220 because we're pretending that these things don't exist, but they very much exist.

00:33:46.080 And do you think it's making us miserable, Debra?

00:33:47.940 In particular, women, when we talked to Megan Murphy, the feminist, 0.97

00:33:51.420 she actually said that trying to, you know, having casual sex and, you know, 0.92

00:33:56.760 trying to emulate these ideas is what made her fundamentally miserable

00:34:01.060 because it denied a part of who she is i think for young women especially they feel like there's

00:34:07.440 something like when they tell me they feel like there's something wrong with them that they are

00:34:11.400 not more like they're the first straight women they're not more like their male partners in that

00:34:15.020 they don't enjoy casual sex they do they are hoping for a relationship to come out of it for

00:34:19.500 a man if if you as a woman say to a man you just want a purely sexual relationship he's going to

00:34:25.360 be like fantastic you know and that's that's really all it is he's not thinking how will she

00:34:30.160 like me more you know and and how can i get into a relationship with her after it's for for men it's 1.00

00:34:35.640 very much if it's sex it's just sex and it's considered sexist to say that but i don't think

00:34:40.760 it should be well i'm sorry go no no you got me yeah and how have we come to this point i mean

00:34:48.020 before you would have had comedians in the 1950s you know doing routines about this we'd all laugh

00:34:53.800 and we'll go yeah it's funny because it's true but now we've come to the point where this has

00:34:58.640 become controversial is that not insane i think it is a little bit yeah but i think it is coming

00:35:05.960 from the same place of you know sexism exists and women have previously had to deal with um you 1.00

00:35:12.680 know certain roadblocks that they should not have had to deal with and so i think again it's it's

00:35:17.720 society going way too far in the opposite direction and saying okay well every in every single way

00:35:22.680 women are the same as men and especially when it comes to sex i think female typical behavior 1.00

00:35:28.620 is somehow seen as submissive.

00:35:31.860 I don't think that's necessarily the case.

00:35:33.580 I think you can be very assertive as a woman

00:35:35.820 and be very feminine.

00:35:37.240 And those two things, submissiveness

00:35:39.420 or being dominated by a partner or being a pushover

00:35:42.640 is not necessarily the same thing as being feminine.

00:35:45.800 So I think there's a lot of nuance

00:35:47.160 that just is not being discussed.

00:35:48.980 I think it's just a lot easier

00:35:50.100 with a lot of these issues

00:35:51.160 to create blanket statements

00:35:52.960 or to just be very, very adamant

00:35:55.920 about one particular perspective

00:35:57.540 and shut down any other opposing perspective because it could potentially be misused or

00:36:03.040 misconstrued. What I find quite interesting about this whole worldview is that it's almost sexist

00:36:08.640 in the way that it's designed and that it's saying like male quality is good, female quality is bad.

00:36:15.060 And you're then forcing women, as what Megan Murphy was saying, you're forcing women to think

00:36:20.820 that in order to be quote unquote good, you have to be like men. You have to think about sex and

00:36:26.200 relationships like men when really that's just we're just not wired in the same way are we

00:36:32.680 right and that's the thing i do think if we pretend again if we go back to gender being

00:36:37.640 a social construct if we say that then that means that men and male sexuality remain the gold

00:36:43.340 standard and then female sexuality is basically an aberration of that and so women are going to 1.00

00:36:48.500 constantly be pressured to conform to being like men and i think it should be perfectly fine for

00:36:55.060 women to be respected as they are and but maybe i'm going to misquote you here but deborah didn't 1.00

00:37:01.560 you believe some of these ideas early on before doing the research and then realizing they are

00:37:06.920 insane as as it were well why did you believe these ideas because that's what i was told and

00:37:13.980 i would i you know the before i started studying sexology i wasn't exposed to any of the research

00:37:20.000 data on the other side. So as a young woman who has always been very outspoken, I thought to be

00:37:28.000 an independent, empowered woman, these are the views that you hold. And then when I did start

00:37:32.960 studying sexology in graduate school, I realized that none of those ideas are based in science.

00:37:38.660 And I think it's actually quite harmful for young women to be told basically lies because that's

00:37:44.740 not empowering. I think you walk around with a false sense of empowerment, but you're not

00:37:49.620 informed so that's not helpful and it's curious you've said a couple of times now you kind of

00:37:55.400 just to remind everybody that sexism exists right because sometimes it can feel like people are you

00:38:01.020 know on your side of the argument are perhaps skipping over that so what are the areas where

00:38:06.980 you think sexism is still a powerful force in our society i definitely would not say in stem i know

00:38:15.200 that's one very common argument people say that the lack of women in stem is due to sexism and i

00:38:20.700 disagree with that in the book i i go through a number of studies that show that you know actually

00:38:26.140 when it comes to hiring in terms of preference for male or female candidates there's actually

00:38:31.560 a bias in favor of female candidates for academic positions um i think that's not just true sorry to

00:38:38.900 interrupt it's not just true of academia i mean whether it's you know comedy going on a panel show

00:38:45.200 as a comedian whether it's working at the bbc you know in the mainstream organizations i suspect if

00:38:53.500 you were to look now to 30 years ago unquestionable bias and favor of men you look now i think it's

00:38:59.420 either par or very much in favor of women right um but but but i am interested to think about

00:39:05.620 You know, you said several times that sexism is still an issue. And I think sometimes people who are trying to have a conversation on our side of the fence, if you like, if there is a side of the fence, you know, sometimes skip over things. So where do you think sexism is still an issue?

00:39:22.120 well i think on an individual level it's not possible to go through every single person in

00:39:27.480 society and to cleanse their mind of any negative thoughts of women or anyone who believes that

00:39:33.440 women are inferior in some way to completely eradicate that so i think in that way but i 0.99

00:39:38.960 don't think it's it's at a systemic level and i don't think it's in a way that's really seriously 0.99

00:39:43.420 holding women back certainly not in western society so there's a few assholes basically 0.94

00:39:49.720 just still walking around right and that's not that yeah and that's not to say that those 0.53

00:39:54.240 interactions aren't um uncomfortable for somebody or upsetting for somebody but i i do think in the

00:40:00.840 grand scheme of things you can choose in life what you want to focus on and what's going to

00:40:04.340 motivate you or hold you back and i you know i write in the book of about some some situations

00:40:08.920 i experience with sexism but i think if you stay focused as a woman and you just keep moving

00:40:13.440 forward then there's nothing that's going to stop you in that way agreed and anyway that's enough

00:40:18.280 about constantin so let's move on right i was gonna i can't even argue back it's my culture

00:40:25.320 it's my culture what can i do yeah i'm problematic right now um but deborah one thing that really

00:40:31.500 came forward in your book and i think that i found very interesting is you made the point

00:40:34.660 that we are having these these incredibly complex nuanced conversations and a lot of people hosting

00:40:40.700 these conversations are quite frankly not qualified to do so he's talking about me and you

00:40:46.700 at least we don't pretend to be qualified but do you think that why do you think that's

00:40:57.220 bad and do you actually think it's quite dangerous as well well when you say their

00:41:02.360 hosts are not qualified in what way are they not qualified so like people commenting about

00:41:07.000 sex and gender are not people from a scientific background they're people from the humanities

00:41:11.900 and arts and as somebody who's got a degree in the arts i can say i'm qualified for nothing

00:41:16.060 but i would say even experts this is the this is what's so crazy right now is that i feel bad even

00:41:23.560 using the word crazy because that's now supposed to be a problematic term but you know that even

00:41:27.540 scientific experts some of them have become ideological and that they will say things like

00:41:34.040 you know there are no biologically based differences in the brain between men and women

00:41:38.280 and you see the new research that's coming out saying these things so it's it's really a frightening

00:41:43.820 time because now the scientific papers themselves are compromised because scientists know it's one

00:41:49.320 thing to say whatever loopy idea you have but it's not until you publish that in a paper and

00:41:54.680 then you can point to that paper and say oh yeah in this paper that we published we showed this

00:41:58.420 magically you know it so that's that's where we are right now but i i don't see maybe i'm not being

00:42:06.640 how can how but surely science is science it's fact isn't it if you are a good scientist you

00:42:13.480 will design your study in a way that it's not biased and that you will be open to whatever you

00:42:17.400 find at the end. So I don't want to necessarily point fingers at people in terms of what they're

00:42:21.520 doing, but definitely in the field, when a paper comes out that says something like there are no

00:42:26.600 biologically based sex differences in the brain, you can, if you look at all of the previous

00:42:32.520 research, I mean, there's hundreds and hundreds of studies suggesting otherwise. And when most

00:42:38.840 of the experts in the field if not all who are not ideological are saying this is not this does

00:42:44.040 not look right and you go in and even so for say one study that was published showing there are no

00:42:48.220 sex differences when a different group of my colleagues analyzed the exact same data from

00:42:52.120 the study they found that you could tell the difference between male and female brains at a

00:42:56.360 rate much higher than chance so i mean i think again i don't want to be pointing fingers but

00:43:02.060 you can if you want to promote a particular agenda even as a scientist you can find a way to do that

00:43:08.500 Right. And what will happen to the way we have these conversations? Because one of the other things you talk about in the book is essentially people who want to do authentic science, unbiased science. They know the punishment, as you said yourself, even tenure won't protect you.

00:43:25.560 and then of course those people leave the field and we've seen a lot of people um leaving different

00:43:33.200 academic branches because they recognize that they can't do the research that they want to do

00:43:39.140 because if they find the wrong thing they're going to be punished for it uh and will that not lead

00:43:44.840 over time to essentially a replacement of true scientists with agenda driven ideologically

00:43:51.100 driven science and then all of the stuff that you're saying is scientifically not true will

00:43:57.240 become scientifically true right that is what we're seeing right now and especially when it

00:44:02.960 comes to gender if you look at well the research pretending to say children with gender dysphoria

00:44:08.120 i'm not really questioning what new studies are going to find because we know that we see what

00:44:15.200 happens if you try to question or challenge transgender the trans what narrative is being

00:44:21.900 put forward by trans activists there was a study that was published last year that suggested that

00:44:27.260 gender dysphoria may have something to do with sensory networks and that it may not necessarily

00:44:33.380 be due to having the wrong brain sex in someone's body so i think that's not necessarily the case

00:44:39.700 for everybody but i do think that paper was published for the purpose of uh sparking debate

00:44:45.540 that's that's why the journal published it and then it ended up being put under review again

00:44:51.700 and then it was eventually retracted because there was such an outcry over it because people

00:44:55.840 were saying this could be misused to say that trans people should not transition i think that's

00:45:01.540 usually the key fear and i understand that fear because again medical gatekeeping did exist and

00:45:06.740 And I don't think trans people, I think they deserve support and care and to be able to access, you know, the interventions adults should be. 1.00

00:45:14.600 And so now no one's going to touch this subject.

00:45:18.200 No good ethical researcher is going to touch the subject.

00:45:20.580 So instead, all the research that's coming out is going to be activist led.

00:45:24.340 And we've talked about the impact on trans people.

00:45:26.980 And I think it's important that all of us, just like you have, emphasize that we want people who are gender dysphoric to get the support that they need.

00:45:36.020 Absolutely.

00:45:36.740 and for adults to be able to live their life as they choose.

00:45:39.760 There's no, I don't think people have any issue with that.

00:45:43.600 But there's also another population that feels very threatened

00:45:47.360 by what's happening from the other end, which is women, 0.99

00:45:51.460 or cervix havers as the CNN today describes.

00:45:54.700 Menstruators. 0.93

00:45:55.560 Menstruators. 0.94

00:45:56.520 Yeah. 0.51

00:45:56.880 Uterus havers.

00:45:58.560 Uterus havers, exactly. 0.75

00:45:59.960 Well, there's two ejaculators, the question we'd like to ask.

00:46:02.420 is uh you know women feel very strongly about this issue as we've discovered over the time 0.99

00:46:10.620 we've been doing the show uh francis smacking his lips there yeah yeah women do feel very 1.00

00:46:17.720 strongly about this issue uh what do you have a particular view on that because uh you know it's

00:46:24.500 become a big contentious issue in fact i would say almost all of the contentiousness comes from

00:46:29.880 that women feeling like they're under attack by some of this um do you what's your take on that

00:46:37.060 i think with regard to because i think the broader conversation is about are transgender women

00:46:42.440 the same as women who were born women full stop because the implications of that are much different

00:46:48.540 from if we were to say trans men are the same as men full stop because when it comes to women's

00:46:54.380 spaces uh women are arguably going to be affected more so if someone who is a trans woman is and

00:47:03.480 when i when i cite these criticisms my issue is not with trans people it's because the policy

00:47:08.200 then opens up the opportunity for individuals who are male who are not transgender for them to abuse 0.91

00:47:15.760 the ability to access these spaces and it comes back to biological differences men are bigger

00:47:20.660 stronger blah blah blah right and also i mean they are more likely to perpetuate sexual offenses

00:47:26.600 not all men of course but um that's just the reality of someone who has worked with sex 0.51

00:47:31.460 offenders previously in research and clinically um so i think it's important to be able to talk

00:47:37.320 about this issue depending on the particular context and the factors involved so bathrooms

00:47:42.280 prisons sports shelters you know i think right now people are taking a very much a sweeping

00:47:48.100 approach saying either either if they're in favor of trans rights they say 100 trans women are women

00:47:53.060 that's that's the end of it and you know to suggest otherwise is bigoted and then on the

00:47:59.120 other side people are saying no trans women shouldn't are not the same as women and you know

00:48:04.000 so uh i mean we can talk about maybe the specific context right well let's talk about it because how

00:48:10.780 do you resolve that for example you know you take a kind of balanced sensible view of it uh

00:48:16.200 should trans women have access to female only bathrooms prisons sports i mean they're all 0.98

00:48:23.180 slightly different but um you know just talk us through your view on those on those contexts

00:48:28.720 i think my my biggest point of contention would be prisons 100 you cannot i mean we we are seeing

00:48:34.980 now with male sex offenders so they they will commit sexual offenses against female victims

00:48:42.700 and they will be arrested and then they will they will identify as female and they will have to be 0.94

00:48:48.140 not only recorded as female by the police but then they will be potentially housed in a women's

00:48:54.180 prison and i just i it's just beyond me i don't know as anyone who works in forensics

00:49:00.640 should know that that is not a good idea so this is actually happening um i think again it's it's

00:49:08.900 very possible that a prisoner may decide to come out as trans. Maybe they are truly gender dysphoric 1.00

00:49:14.020 and so in which case, yeah, that should be taken into account. But I think, you know,

00:49:18.540 a psychologist, when you are evaluating these populations, your job is to determine what is

00:49:23.380 the likelihood of reoffending. That's the biggest thing, like level of risk that someone is going

00:49:27.480 to recidivate. And it's almost like that's not being considered at all in these discussions.

00:49:33.300 It's very much all about identity. And that's really, really not helpful and it's dangerous.

00:49:38.900 Yeah, there's a very famous case in the UK with a person called Karen White, who's a male sex offender. I think a rapist, actually, identified as a woman, got put in a women's prison and lo and behold, went on to sexually abuse three or four women. And you do start to think at that point, has society and the world taken leave of its senses?

00:50:01.480 Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.

00:50:03.960 what else can you say you know yeah i mean i would imagine your take on trans women and female

00:50:11.760 sports would be along similar lines in that there's a biological difference hence they can't

00:50:16.960 compete with each other would that be right right i mean i think and i again i i think

00:50:22.500 i feel it almost feels insensitive to say this because in some way it's saying that again pointing

00:50:28.920 to the differences between trans women and women who are born women and by saying that there are

00:50:32.880 differences sometimes it can feel as though you are telling them how they should identify who they

00:50:37.720 really are but i think it's important to be able to talk about these things especially because

00:50:42.140 they are a scientific reality because in some cases like sports like mixed martial arts which

00:50:48.300 is one of my favorite sports somewhat if a trans woman is fighting in the women's division 1.00

00:50:52.900 there's a chance that that person can be very badly hurt or even killed and i don't think it's

00:50:58.280 fair to the female competitors to just tell them well just you need to suck it up and work harder 1.00

00:51:02.240 that's i mean or you look at the cases of young women who are um going competing for scholarships 0.68

00:51:08.800 and you have um trans girls competing with them and just basically obliterating them it's it's not 1.00

00:51:15.860 fair and where do you stand and this is the most well those are of course contentious issues the

00:51:22.680 whole thing is contentious but let's talk about women's bathrooms and women's safe spaces 1.00

00:51:27.480 where do you stand on that do you think like posy does that uh women's bathroom is a completely 1.00

00:51:35.160 safe space and only women should be allowed in them or do you have slightly more flexibility 0.97

00:51:40.440 with your ideas bathrooms myself personally as a grown woman i have less of an issue i think i'm

00:51:48.160 i'm me personally i'm fine if trans women want to use women's bathrooms however i don't think 1.00

00:51:53.240 it's fair that women and especially girls who are upset by this or who are concerned about this I

00:51:59.200 don't think it's fair to tell them that they are hateful just for having an opposing view I think

00:52:05.120 that they should be able to have to speak their perspective and that we should be able to have

00:52:08.900 an open dialogue about this something like shelters though I am a little bit more critical

00:52:14.620 because you know you're going to be sleeping next to a complete stranger potentially and for a lot

00:52:20.320 of the women who are in these shelters they have a history of trauma some of them have sexual trauma

00:52:24.820 some of them have issues with substance abuse and it can be you know they will relive trauma by

00:52:31.960 potentially being around someone who especially if this person is preoperative right if it's a

00:52:37.200 preoperative trans woman so i think those factors need to be taken into account and women's concerns

00:52:42.740 need to be taken more seriously instead of simply dismissed all right well we're almost out of time

00:52:49.760 And before we ask our last question, and it's been a great interview and wonderful speaking

00:52:54.280 with you, how do we, besides everybody getting your book at the end of gender and reading

00:53:00.580 it, et cetera, how do we get out of this into some kind of healthy way of looking at all

00:53:06.140 these issues?

00:53:06.520 Because I don't think it's an issue that's going away.

00:53:08.240 I think there will always be trans people and there will always be some kind of tension 1.00

00:53:11.900 between the desire for them to have their rights respected and for other people in society

00:53:18.220 whose rights are affected by that that will always continue but how do we find a more healthy

00:53:23.260 way of speaking about it and a healthy way of behaving about it i think the main thing is that

00:53:29.880 the vocal minority really needs to know that they are sorry not the vocal minority the vocal majority

00:53:35.120 no needs to know that they are the majority that's the thing because so many people reach

00:53:39.360 out to me and tell me that a lot of these ideas don't make sense to them i mean it's it's really

00:53:44.320 concerning the level to which we are being saturated in our culture with these nonsensical

00:53:50.460 ideas like gender is a spectrum or that biological sex or is whatever you want it to be you can

00:53:56.140 identify however you want and you choose it yourself things like that it's completely

00:54:00.520 nonsensical it's not scientific and yet people people sense that something is not right but

00:54:06.120 they're not sure how so yeah in the book I do talk about all the scientific literature that

00:54:09.680 can help you fight back against that misinformation but yeah i think just to know that no you you're

00:54:15.960 right the way you feel you have a reason for feeling that way and and it's okay to say that

00:54:20.000 it doesn't make you a bad person to say that deborah it's been a wonderful wonderful interview

00:54:25.380 we've really really enjoyed it the uh question that we always finish all our interviews with

00:54:29.740 is always the same it's what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society and that

00:54:34.660 we really should be i would say the biggest thing for me when we take a step back would be that

00:54:43.180 science denial whether it's coming from the left or the right is really not helpful so my book is

00:54:49.240 predominantly calling a left-leaning science now i would still call myself a liberal and funnily

00:54:53.960 enough the majority of sex researchers are liberal but i think part of the reason why we've gotten to

00:54:58.280 where we are is because we liberals don't it's difficult to call it your own side because you

00:55:03.040 almost feel like you don't know how or you question especially for as a sex researcher

00:55:08.280 interference from the right has predominantly been um the issue that they face so not to say

00:55:14.300 that all right-wing people have issue with sex research but i think when it is your own side

00:55:18.580 it's just as important to to call it out because it's just as harmful and it's going to lead to

00:55:23.300 just as as much misinformation and bad things for society and i can say to everybody calling

00:55:29.440 out your own side really does end well yes that has been our experience but we have got a new

00:55:36.580 studio eventually um so uh having been kicked out of our last one for not being woken up anyway uh

00:55:42.400 enough about us uh it's a brilliant book the end of gender make sure you go get it we'll put the

00:55:46.800 link in the bottom of the video dr deborah so it's been an absolute pleasure speaking we wish

00:55:50.940 you all the best and i'm sure we'll speak to you again very soon thank you so much good luck to you

00:55:55.260 guys too thank you very much deborah and if you want to catch another show or a live stream we

00:56:01.480 are broadcasting tuesday wednesday thursday friday saturday and sunday episodes go out

00:56:07.620 wednesday and sunday and everything is always at 7 p.m uk time at 7 p.m uk time see you soon guys

00:56:25.260 We'll see you next time.

00:56:55.260 And get in touch today.

TRIGGERnometry - August 16, 2020

“Gender Is Not a Social Construct” - Debra Soh

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