TRIGGERnometry - February 23, 2023


Grooming Gangs Are Still a Problem - Samantha Smith


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 7 minutes

Words per minute

165.37608

Word count

11,191

Sentence count

580

Harmful content

Misogyny

25

sentences flagged

Toxicity

51

sentences flagged

Hate speech

13

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Samantha Smith is a 20-year-old journalist from the West Midlands. She tells us about her own childhood sexual abuse and how she persevered through it all to become a journalist and political commentator. She also shares her story of how she rose up through the ranks of the media and politics and became a voice for the voiceless.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:30.600 I personally was groomed and abused for nearly a decade, from the ages of five to about 14.
00:00:38.600 I then went through the justice system, was sort of chewed up and spat back out, as many young girls are.
00:00:45.840 People find it a lot easier to ignore victims than they do to go after the perpetrators.
00:00:52.760 It was due to nervousness about race that, in many cases, the police and local authorities refused to take these cases up.
00:01:01.120 They were worried about being called racist.
00:01:04.840 They were worried about being called right-wing or bigot.
00:01:07.940 Child sexual exploitation is still happening in towns and cities across the UK.
00:01:11.840 This isn't a crime of the past.
00:01:13.840 And this is another thing that those in positions of authority like to say, that, you know, mistakes were made and lessons were learned, but this isn't happening anymore.
00:01:22.840 Well, as recently as 2020, in England and Wales alone, there was hundreds, over 700 reports of alleged child sexual exploitation.
00:01:32.780 By refusing to let myself become all consumed and become prey to what was done to me, I can defy all of those expectations for me.
00:01:46.560 I can, it's kind of like giving the middle finger and saying, you tried everything you could to break me and I still rose up.
00:01:55.100 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.
00:02:07.460 I'm Francis Foster.
00:02:08.720 I'm Constantine Kissin.
00:02:09.760 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:02:14.700 Our brilliant guest today is a journalist and when I introduce her, I should make clear, she's not Sam Smith, she's Samantha Smith.
00:02:20.380 Samantha Smith, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:02:22.180 Thank you for having me.
00:02:23.140 It's really good to have you on the show.
00:02:24.700 We've got lots to talk about.
00:02:26.000 Before we do, and in fact, help us set it up by telling us your story.
00:02:29.360 Who are you?
00:02:30.220 How are you?
00:02:30.700 Where you are?
00:02:31.080 What has been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?
00:02:34.380 Yeah, of course.
00:02:35.220 I am 20 years old.
00:02:37.220 I'm from, I was originally born in Surrey, but I moved to Telford in the West Midlands.
00:02:42.080 I was very young.
00:02:43.380 I sort of fell into this line of work when I was 17.
00:02:47.680 I had always been interested in politics and current affairs.
00:02:51.500 But when I was 17 in the general election 2019, I helped to run my local MP's election campaign.
00:02:59.840 And from that, I continued to get involved in local politics.
00:03:05.380 When schools closed in 2020, I was, in March 2020, I was 17.
00:03:11.000 And I come from a disadvantaged background.
00:03:13.760 So I'm legally estranged from my parent.
00:03:17.420 I was homeless from the age of 16.
00:03:20.200 Legally, I was under social services, you know, sofa staff from for about 16 months, if I'm remembering rightly, you know, moving from sleeping bags to sofas every night, sitting in McDonald's and nursing a cup of coffee until 6 a.m.
00:03:35.800 to get the school bus in the morning.
00:03:37.500 But I, I, I've always been on Twitter, and I wrote a tweet in August 2020 about the cancellation of exams and the impact it would have on disadvantaged students, the way that young people were being judged based on their postcode rather than their potential.
00:03:53.080 And that was picked up by a spectator journalist who asked if I'd be interested in writing a piece for, for the paper, for the publication.
00:04:01.860 And from there, it sort of snowballed.
00:04:03.800 And now here I am, here I am today.
00:04:05.900 Well, you've got an astonishing CV for someone who's 20 years old.
00:04:08.960 So very, very impressive and kudos to you.
00:04:11.280 And one of the things you didn't mention is one of the, the big things that I think also propelled your sort of role as a, as a commentator was your commentary on the grooming gangs and all of that, because it's something that you were personally affected by as well.
00:04:25.700 Yes.
00:04:26.140 So as I said, I'm, I'm, I grew up in Telford in the West Midlands, which is some of your, your viewers, I'm sure will be aware is one of the, the key towns, I suppose, in the national child sexual exploitation scandal.
00:04:38.960 Over 1,000 girls fell victim to organized grooming gangs in, in Telford over a course of, of around 30 years.
00:04:46.960 I personally was groomed and abused for nearly a decade from the ages of five to about 14.
00:04:54.720 I didn't come forward to, to anyone with the abuse I experienced until I was 16.
00:05:01.120 I then went through the, the justice system was sort of chewed up and spat back out as many young girls are. 1.00
00:05:08.020 I remember, I'll never forget being told by a social worker, if you were physically abused, why were there no bruises?
00:05:14.660 That's a, that's a comment that really stuck with me.
00:05:17.800 And I think when, for a long time, I wasn't aware that there were other girls in my position.
00:05:23.420 There were other girls that had been sexually abused, that had been groomed, that had, had had such a horrendous experience.
00:05:31.020 And so when everything began, began to come out in, in 2018, 2019 on the grooming and scandal on the, the, the culture of exploitation, ignorance and, and silence in towns like Telford, it struck home for me.
00:05:51.320 And I first spoke about my story and my experience in 2020.
00:05:57.000 That's when I went public with it, I suppose.
00:05:59.440 And I have worked my hardest to bring awareness to the issue, to amplify survivors' voices and to just really keep the conversation in, in the, the media attention.
00:06:17.040 Because so many girls like me have been disenfranchised and marginalized and silenced by those in power.
00:06:25.900 So without, without, without people willing, they're willing to speak up, whether it's anonymously or, or showing their faces, I waived my right to anonymity.
00:06:39.400 Perpetrators, groomers, rapists, grooming gangs, they're going to be able to, to continue to thrive and continue to groom, rape, abuse, exploit other little girls. 0.58
00:06:49.180 So that's, that's why I, I suppose I chose to speak out. 0.99
00:06:52.960 Yeah. And, uh, we've had, uh, a survivor of the grooming gangs on the show, Dr. Ella Hill.
00:06:58.340 I don't know if you're familiar with her, if you saw that interview, but she was anonymized.
00:07:02.320 And so, um, you're very courageous to talk about it in public the way that you do.
00:07:07.740 And I'm curious because one of the things I've discovered after we published that interview, I contacted every journalist I could.
00:07:16.580 And I went, look, watch this interview. Why don't you write something about this?
00:07:19.540 And they're just, they were not interested. Why do you think that is?
00:07:24.560 It's the age old, the age old issue of cultural sensitivity. I would say people find it a lot easier to ignore victims than they do to, to go after the perpetrators.
00:07:36.420 We saw it with local councils, with social services, with the police, with the Crown Prosecution Service, with mainstream media, with the government, the list goes on.
00:07:45.980 Those in positions of power and authority don't want to have this conversation because it exposes their own failings.
00:07:53.980 It exposes the culture of ignorance and silence and victim blaming that was perpetrated over decades.
00:08:00.280 You know, young girls have been trying to speak out. This isn't something new.
00:08:05.780 This isn't a new occurrence of all of a sudden victims and survivors coming out of the woodworks and wanting to share their stories.
00:08:13.960 No, they went to sexual health clinics. They went to the police. 0.67
00:08:17.120 They went to their teachers, their social workers, and they were ignored at every turn because they were viewed as second class victims. 0.93
00:08:24.300 And those in positions of authority were scared about the implications of accusing, in the case of grooming gangs, particularly predominantly Pakistani men, of being rapists and of raping predominantly white working class girls.
00:08:42.540 It's far easier to pivot the conversation away from victims and survivors because they are traditionally disenfranchised. 0.94
00:08:49.300 disenfranchised. They don't come from the sort of background that has, they don't have support.
00:08:55.480 They don't have people that are going to fight for them, that are going to stand up for them.
00:08:58.280 They aren't privileged or affluent in any sort of way.
00:09:03.180 And so their only hope, you know, the legal system and social services and social care.
00:09:11.040 And if they don't listen, how are the media going to be expected to pick it up?
00:09:16.140 Because it comes down to them being treated as second class victims, I think.
00:09:22.140 And they were treated as second class. I wouldn't even say second class.
00:09:25.720 I'd say eighth class because some of the language used about these girls was disgusting. 1.00
00:09:30.500 I think the term white slags was used as... 0.95
00:09:33.100 Yes, that was used in Telford quite a lot. 0.77
00:09:36.440 And the Crowther report, which was the independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Telford,
00:09:43.560 it was revealed that police and local authorities referred to the girls as packy shaggers, 0.99
00:09:50.700 as white slags, as child prostitutes. 1.00
00:09:53.520 That was a big one, the idea that a child can prostitute themselves. 1.00
00:09:56.740 And these are young girls, girls as young as 10 or 11, in the case of Telford, 0.74
00:10:03.200 being told that this is your fault.
00:10:05.400 You brought this on yourself. You consented.
00:10:07.760 It's because of your actions and your lifestyle that you're in the position you are today.
00:10:12.660 Again, I remember being told at one point that my actions had led me to where I was.
00:10:18.020 And this was when I was 16 or 17.
00:10:20.420 And it reinforces this idea, this internalized shame that a lot of victims and survivors have,
00:10:28.780 that somehow they brought it on themselves, when realistically, and I'll say this,
00:10:32.940 if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, children cannot consent to sex. 0.71
00:10:37.020 Children cannot be asking for it. 1.00
00:10:38.800 Children cannot be packy shaggers or white slags or child prostitutes. 1.00
00:10:43.760 Children cannot consent. 1.00
00:10:45.000 And those adults that are preying on vulnerable little girls are criminals, 1.00
00:10:49.940 they're rapists, and they're predators. 1.00
00:10:51.820 They are the ones in the wrong here, not the little girls who were abused. 0.96
00:10:56.600 And you're saying that, and it makes complete sense.
00:10:59.680 And of course, it's just a statement of fact.
00:11:01.900 But the reality is, that's not how these girls were perceived.
00:11:06.460 And it was a failing right the way through, like you said, the court system.
00:11:10.440 Do you think the police are misogynistic, the police forces,
00:11:15.780 from your own experience, from seeing the way they've interacted with other victims?
00:11:40.440 I would say that it goes far deeper than misogyny,
00:11:53.720 because misogyny is an inherent hatred towards women. 1.00
00:11:56.600 But this isn't just misogynistic, it's classist.
00:12:00.620 I would go so far as to say it's racist,
00:12:02.880 to suggest that these young, white, working class girls 1.00
00:12:06.280 are white slags for being victimized and being abused. 0.99
00:12:10.540 It's so much more than just a hatred of women and girls. 0.99
00:12:13.660 It's a hatred of everything that these young children were.
00:12:18.400 It's attacking every part of their identity
00:12:21.040 and suggesting that they are somehow responsible
00:12:25.360 for the abuse they suffered due to their immutable characteristics.
00:12:29.800 So I say, you know, and there's a wider debate
00:12:32.860 about the failings of the Crown Prosecution Service
00:12:35.000 to bring sexual assault and sexual misconduct cases to trial.
00:12:41.320 I believe it's 98.6% of rape cases never make it to court in the UK.
00:12:50.100 That's just 1.4% of victims that are able to have their day in court,
00:12:56.860 have their case even heard.
00:12:58.200 So how many thousands upon thousands of victims
00:13:01.520 are falling at the first hurdle or the second hurdle
00:13:04.540 or so on and so forth?
00:13:06.840 Yes, there is absolutely a misogyny problem in the police, I would say.
00:13:12.240 You know, the fact that violence against women and girls
00:13:15.280 still isn't being taken seriously in 2023
00:13:17.860 is beyond imagination.
00:13:22.540 But when it comes to child sexual abuse 0.66
00:13:25.980 and child sexual exploitation,
00:13:27.800 this particular type of crime goes far deeper
00:13:30.440 than plain misogyny.
00:13:33.640 And there's also, let's not ignore cowardice as well,
00:13:36.740 because the fact that a large proportion
00:13:39.460 of the men committing these crimes
00:13:41.140 came from a Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim background,
00:13:46.040 suddenly that meant that they,
00:13:48.260 a lot of police and especially a lot of political commentators
00:13:51.160 and a lot of politicians started to get cold feet
00:13:54.780 when dealing with this.
00:13:55.660 Absolutely.
00:13:57.040 And this has been highlighted in the independent reports
00:14:00.820 in Rotherham, Rochdale, Oldham, Telford,
00:14:03.980 that those in positions of power,
00:14:06.200 and I quote the Telford report here,
00:14:07.860 failed to do their most basic duty
00:14:09.760 in investigating reports of alleged child sexual exploitation.
00:14:15.680 And it was also said in the Crowther report,
00:14:19.540 in the Telford report,
00:14:20.220 that it was due to nervousness about race,
00:14:22.480 that in many cases the police and local authorities
00:14:26.140 refuse to take these cases up.
00:14:28.680 I'm a firm believer in the fact that
00:14:31.560 those in position of authority were blinded by fear
00:14:37.460 when it comes to grooming child sexual exploitation,
00:14:40.680 child sexual abuse in general. 0.92
00:14:42.420 They were worried about being called racist. 0.78
00:14:46.280 They were worried about being called right-wing
00:14:47.940 or bigots or radicals.
00:14:50.620 They were worried about the consequences on their own careers
00:14:53.800 if they spoke up.
00:14:54.840 And that's why there were so few whistleblowers.
00:14:57.280 And the few that did speak out were absolutely slum.
00:15:00.500 They had their careers ruined.
00:15:01.600 Take Maggie Oliver, who is an absolutely brilliant woman,
00:15:05.100 brave and awe-inspiring.
00:15:07.060 I worked very closely with her on a few different things.
00:15:10.600 And she was obviously the only police official
00:15:15.320 to resign over the failings in Greater Manchester.
00:15:20.800 She was the whistleblower in that case.
00:15:23.620 And she, for years, had those in position of authority 0.54
00:15:27.720 trying to destroy her reputation and her credibility, 1.00
00:15:30.840 trying to suggest that she was a crackpot or a fool 1.00
00:15:33.720 or that she was making this up 1.00
00:15:35.200 or somehow sensationalizing the scale of the abuse
00:15:38.520 when we now know that she was absolutely accurate
00:15:42.420 in everything that she was saying.
00:15:43.800 There were sexual health clinic workers,
00:15:46.400 social workers, teachers who raised concerns
00:15:49.000 and were discouraged from making reports
00:15:51.560 due to an inherent belief that,
00:15:54.800 oh, this couldn't be going on in towns and cities like ours.
00:15:57.640 This just isn't true.
00:15:58.880 The girls are lying. 1.00
00:15:59.860 They're making it up.
00:16:00.760 They're twisting the truth.
00:16:03.400 It's really astonishing how little accountability
00:16:09.380 we've seen for the failings across the UK.
00:16:14.360 You know, how many police officers have lost their jobs?
00:16:17.160 How many council officials have faced any real consequences?
00:16:22.540 We saw Dominic Beck recently was selected as a Labour candidate.
00:16:25.460 He's now stood down of his own accord.
00:16:27.540 I'm assuming he jumped before he was pushed,
00:16:29.740 Can you just go into that?
00:16:31.660 Because there's a lot of people from overseas, Samantha,
00:16:34.160 who wouldn't know who this councillor is.
00:16:35.860 Just explain who he is and why he was pushed.
00:16:39.240 Well, he jumped before he was pushed.
00:16:40.620 So Dominic Beck was a cabinet member in Rotherham
00:16:45.100 during the time of the child sexual exploitation scandal.
00:16:48.560 He and the rest of the cabinet were forced to resign
00:16:51.300 in shame over their mishandling of the crisis.
00:16:59.720 And this was in 2015 that his resignation occurred, I believe.
00:17:03.760 And was it seven years later, he was selected as a Labour parliamentary candidate
00:17:08.040 for Rother Valley.
00:17:08.860 The slap in the face of that is to victims and survivors
00:17:12.740 to suggest that a man who had to resign literally in disgrace
00:17:16.860 over his mishandling and his cabinet's mishandling
00:17:21.040 of the child sexual exploitation scandal in the area
00:17:24.960 was then allowed to potentially run to represent
00:17:28.540 these same survivors in Parliament.
00:17:30.740 He didn't represent them then,
00:17:32.240 so how on earth would he be fit for public office now?
00:17:35.260 He eventually stood down after GB News exposed this absolute injustice.
00:17:44.760 And like I said, the Labour Party didn't push him out officially,
00:17:48.760 but he resigned of his own accord,
00:17:51.360 although I believe that there's no way he wasn't facing internal pressure.
00:17:55.420 We've seen in Telford, again, the Labour leader of Telford-Norican Council,
00:18:00.460 who is still the current Labour leader of the council,
00:18:02.660 is running now to be the next MP for Telford, Labour MP for Telford,
00:18:08.260 Councillor Sean Davis.
00:18:09.620 He's also the Labour Government Association lead,
00:18:14.220 and so he sits in the shadow cabinet unofficially.
00:18:17.240 He wrote a letter in 2018 to the then Home Secretary
00:18:20.440 calling for a potential inquiry into CSE and Telford to be shut down.
00:18:26.840 He said there was no need for an inquiry
00:18:28.340 and that the scale of the abuse wasn't being accurately reported,
00:18:35.520 that he believed that a generalised inquiry into child sexual abuse,
00:18:41.320 not child sexual exploitation,
00:18:42.620 a national inquiry that had been in the works since the mid-2010s,
00:18:48.180 would be adequate in addressing the child sexual exploitation scandal in Telford.
00:18:55.500 That was along with nine other very important men
00:18:57.960 that included the chief superintendent of West Mercia Police at the time,
00:19:04.080 the cabinet member for children and young people,
00:19:06.060 Councillor Paul Watling.
00:19:07.060 He also signed his name on that letter.
00:19:12.200 He's now, like I said, running to be Labour MP for Telford,
00:19:15.900 and he hasn't faced any negative repercussions for that.
00:19:19.520 Even as recently as in 2022, he released a statement saying,
00:19:25.780 he stated in a council meeting that he was three years old at the time
00:19:29.720 that CSE was happening in Telford,
00:19:31.760 that he continues to shirk responsibility for his council's failings
00:19:37.460 to address child sexual exploitation with shoddy apologies and vague platitudes.
00:19:43.980 It seems that those that were the architects of the failings
00:19:49.700 and in dealing with child sexual exploitation
00:19:52.540 are still allowed to continue their careers unscathed,
00:19:57.220 despite the thousands of lives that they impacted negatively
00:20:02.760 and the thousands of girls that they ignored for years.
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00:21:38.860 Samantha, and I mean, it's a difficult conversation, isn't it?
00:21:45.000 Because punishing people for things that they've done is always going to,
00:21:49.560 like, we all think it should happen, but it's always difficult to do because,
00:21:53.460 you know, it just is.
00:21:55.280 But I suppose from your perspective, would I be right in thinking that your primary concern now
00:21:59.040 is making sure nothing like this ever happens to anyone again, right?
00:22:02.200 Absolutely.
00:22:02.880 And so I suppose the question for you is, when we first talked to Ella Hill,
00:22:06.520 which was, I think, 2018 or 2019, it would have been.
00:22:09.120 It was 2020.
00:22:10.060 It was during the pandemic.
00:22:11.320 It was just, I think, was it?
00:22:12.640 I think it was before, mate.
00:22:13.780 I think, let's say, let's call it 2019.
00:22:16.800 I mean, I'm terrible with dates.
00:22:17.840 You're probably right.
00:22:18.660 But let's say it was.
00:22:20.300 I think since then, in the last four years, this conversation, thankfully,
00:22:24.240 is being increasingly had in public and people actually talking about it.
00:22:28.040 As you said, there have been reports into it.
00:22:29.760 But are you confident that this is now something that wouldn't be repeated?
00:22:34.600 Or is it still ongoing?
00:22:36.300 Is it still not being properly dealt with?
00:22:38.140 Like, what is your take?
00:22:39.180 What is your sense of where we are now with this issue?
00:22:42.120 Child sexual exploitation is still happening in towns and cities across the UK.
00:22:46.500 This isn't a crime of the past.
00:22:47.980 And this is another thing that those in positions of authority like to say,
00:22:52.800 that, you know, mistakes were made and lessons were learned,
00:22:55.780 but this isn't happening anymore.
00:22:57.000 Or, well, as recently as 2020, I believe, in Telford alone,
00:23:01.600 in Telford, sorry, in England and Wales alone,
00:23:05.600 there was hundreds, over 700 reports of alleged child sexual exploitation.
00:23:12.280 Of this kind, like grooming gangs?
00:23:13.680 Yes, grooming gangs.
00:23:14.160 So how is this happening?
00:23:16.060 How is this happening?
00:23:17.000 I don't get it.
00:23:18.100 Like, we've had all these reports.
00:23:20.280 There have been brave people like you that have come forward.
00:23:22.240 The police and the councils and the social services and the politicians,
00:23:26.660 some of them finally got the balls to start talking about this. 0.59
00:23:29.700 How is it possible that 700 people can still be being abused in this way in one town? 0.94
00:23:37.300 I think it's, progress is happening, don't get me wrong.
00:23:40.300 It is.
00:23:40.620 The conversation is a lot more open than it was, say, 10, 15 years ago.
00:23:45.940 But that doesn't mean that adequate change has been made.
00:23:49.160 In Telford, I'll use the Telford example again,
00:23:51.660 there was a specialist team in Telford that was set up to deal with child sexual exploitation cases
00:23:59.260 and to investigate this in West Marcia Police.
00:24:02.560 But it was discovered that as recently as 2020, 2021,
00:24:07.120 that team had been scaled back to be virtually non-existent.
00:24:13.020 I think that those in power are saying all the right things.
00:24:17.660 They're showing a willingness, quote unquote, to change and to learn from the mistakes of the past.
00:24:23.180 But whether that's actually being implemented yet is another question entirely.
00:24:27.200 And I also think that while the scale of abuse has now been exposed
00:24:35.020 and the level of the failings is being brought to national attention,
00:24:43.380 there's still a long way to go in dealing with this type of crime.
00:24:46.760 There's still a lot of fear.
00:24:49.760 There's still a lot of ignorance and arrogance around this issue.
00:24:54.000 And so long as those in power continue to try and minimise the failings and shirk responsibility,
00:25:03.760 then little girls will continue to be abused. 1.00
00:25:07.040 Sam, before we go any further, we've used the term child sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation.
00:25:12.540 Could you just clarify the difference between those two terms?
00:25:15.360 Yes. So child sexual exploitation is, in this context, is referring to group-based grooming.
00:25:25.180 It's where a group of offenders, of perpetrators, will target a young victim, usually girls.
00:25:33.640 They will groom them, whether it's there are different tactics.
00:25:36.880 So there's the boyfriend tactic, there's wooing them with affection, with rides, with gifts,
00:25:43.640 with whatever means necessary to build a sense of trust with the victim.
00:25:50.920 They then will exploit them sexually.
00:25:54.400 So that's, in the case of Telford, many of these girls were being abused by taxi drivers, 0.96
00:26:01.020 by takeaway owners, and they were being brought to sex parties or passed around between men,
00:26:08.640 often prostituted for money. 0.77
00:26:11.400 But it's group-based sexual exploitation and grooming. 0.94
00:26:17.120 Child sexual abuse is, it refers to the broad umbrella of abuse, again, of sexual abuse of children.
00:26:25.200 So that can include abuse within the family.
00:26:27.700 It does include child sexual exploitation.
00:26:30.320 So child sexual exploitation is a form of child sexual abuse, but it falls under the umbrella.
00:26:36.480 And child sexual abuse is, you know, the broad definition.
00:26:39.760 Grooming can also fall in either category.
00:26:43.080 It can, grooming can be online, it can be in person, it can be via social media,
00:26:49.080 whatever means grooming takes place.
00:26:51.120 And child sexual exploitation, again, is grooming forms a part of that.
00:26:55.100 Um, and I've always, I've always clarified.
00:26:58.520 So I was, I was a victim of child sexual abuse and grooming in, in Telford.
00:27:04.200 I was abused and, and, um, and groomed for nearly a decade by successive men.
00:27:11.000 I, myself, wasn't a victim of the, the particular type of, of child sexual exploitation that many of, that many fellow survivors were.
00:27:20.480 But my experience of the failings of the police and local authorities and those in positions of power to address exploitation and grooming and, and to, to bring justice in my case was identical to, to, uh, to many of, of my fellow survivors.
00:27:39.520 And so that's, I suppose that's why, and my experience of the failings in Telford to, to, to, to give little girls justice and protect little girls from abuse was what inspired me to, to come forward, I suppose.
00:27:55.000 Yeah.
00:27:55.080 And, and, and Samantha, uh, one of the things I find so incredible about everything you've been able to do with your life is you've overcome these awful experiences.
00:28:05.140 And it's something I, we always think about is like everyone experiences some form of, you know, adversity and trauma and whatever.
00:28:11.420 In your case, obviously at a much worse and extensive level.
00:28:15.220 And yet here you are, you're 20 years old, you've run an MPs campaign at the age of 17, you're on TV, you're writing columns.
00:28:23.440 How have you been able to overcome all this?
00:28:25.520 How have you been able to deal with the challenges that you faced?
00:28:29.880 Don't get me wrong.
00:28:30.600 I wasn't, I wasn't like I am now when I was, you know, 16, 17 years old.
00:28:36.740 I, I wasn't like you are now when you were 16, 17 and I didn't go through child sexual abuse.
00:28:43.040 I, um, you see, I, I, I had a lot of anger.
00:28:48.440 I had a lot of fear, a lot of resentment, a lot of shame.
00:28:51.500 And I, when I was younger, when I first came forward about the abuse that I suffered, I was a scared little girl who was terrified of speaking out because I felt like I had somehow brought on myself.
00:29:06.500 Like I was responsible for the abuse.
00:29:08.580 I, and much of this, this rhetoric was instilled in me by those in, in positions of authority.
00:29:15.240 I, it took me a long time to overcome a lot of that anger and that guilt and that shame.
00:29:21.540 And I still, I still struggle with those feelings on a daily basis, but the way that I, I suppose I was able to come out the other side and now speak about my,
00:29:33.200 my story as I do is I, I, and this sounds very strange.
00:29:40.020 I compartmentalize it in the way of what I experienced was awful.
00:29:45.440 It was, it was, it will, it will stay with me for the rest of my life.
00:29:49.580 But if by speaking out about it and by using my pain and my trauma and, and airing it out and, and exposing these injustices,
00:30:00.420 if I can use my experience to enforce change and to help even just one little girl see that you can get through it and that you can survive,
00:30:12.060 you can become stronger, you can be successful, then it will make it all worth it.
00:30:17.180 You know, everything that I have done since speaking out about, about my experiences is in spite of what was done to me.
00:30:29.140 I think that the, the best kind of revenge is success.
00:30:32.520 And by not allowing my experience to define me, not by not allowing, and I hate the, I hate the term victim.
00:30:41.700 I don't like to think of myself as a victim, even though I was victimized.
00:30:46.380 I think that by refusing to let myself become all consumed and become prey to what was done to me, I can, I can, I defy all of those expectations for me.
00:31:04.700 I can, it's kind of like giving the middle finger and saying, you tried everything you could to break me and I still rose up again.
00:31:14.940 It's very impressive.
00:31:16.060 Did you ever, did you ever get any justice for what happened to you?
00:31:19.080 Was anyone ever convicted?
00:31:20.620 No.
00:31:21.200 No.
00:31:21.800 No.
00:31:22.300 And were you offered any kind of therapy or anything of that kind?
00:31:25.680 Yes.
00:31:26.100 It's a, it's a very, very complicated system.
00:31:29.640 I would say the justice system in the UK and England and Wales specifically.
00:31:33.860 So when I first went to the police about what I experienced, I was assigned an ISVA, which is an independent sexual violence advisor.
00:31:42.060 And I was referred for sexual abuse therapy through an independent charity that worked with the police.
00:31:48.500 I was also, because I was 16, I was shipped to a child psychologist and a child psychiatrist to see if there was anything underlying in, in my own psychological makeup, I suppose, that would.
00:32:01.080 And, and it was phrased to me as so that they knew how to support me best.
00:32:04.820 But I, I came to, to realize that it was partly an, an interrogation and a, a means of finding out if there was anything underlying mentally that would make it more difficult for me to be believed in court.
00:32:18.780 And we've seen this in, in, in, in Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford of victims and survivors who had underlying mental health difficulties or who had behavioral difficulties or whatever it was, vulnerabilities that they were told that there, they wouldn't be a suitable, suitable witnessing court.
00:32:38.060 And that it wasn't a good idea to proceed with the case because they don't know how they would play in front of a jury.
00:32:43.620 So I, I had all of these different services around me.
00:32:48.820 Am I right in thinking, it doesn't sound like they were massively helpful at this point.
00:32:53.380 So my, my independent sexual violence advisor, my ISVA, I will say was absolutely brilliant.
00:32:58.840 She was, it genuinely felt as though she was on my side, but another, and this is something about the, this is something internal about the justice system that people might not know.
00:33:06.960 When it comes to sexual abuse therapy, one of the big things when you're, when you have a case that's ongoing is any therapy that you receive, you're not actually allowed to talk about what happened to you in specific detail.
00:33:20.820 So you can't talk about the abuse.
00:33:22.360 You can't talk about any particulars.
00:33:23.900 You can't name any names.
00:33:25.320 You can't really, you can't address the actual abuse itself at all, because if you do, then the, and it did come to court,
00:33:35.200 then your private notes, your, your therapy sessions could be, um, called upon as evidence in, in court.
00:33:43.640 And so basically your private, your medical privacy would be compromised if you discussed the particulars of your case during therapy while the case was ongoing.
00:33:53.760 And as, as many, many survivors will know, it's a very long process to get to court.
00:34:01.220 I mean, mine was, my case was dropped, no further action because the CPA, the CPS believes that there wasn't a realistic prospect of conviction due to it being a historic case.
00:34:12.020 I, the process took nearly two years for me to not even reach court.
00:34:17.720 So that was two years where I was receiving some sort of support, but I wasn't actually able to address any, any of the trauma and the abuse that I experienced.
00:34:25.720 It was sort of the way that it was described was keeping the, keeping you ticking along until you can actually access the full package of therapy, which was, so there were two types of therapy.
00:34:37.080 There was the pre-trial therapy, and then there was the, the, the post police involvement therapy, which was the full Monty where you could discuss everything and really get the help that, that, that many victims and survivors need as, as I needed.
00:34:52.280 So for two years, I was in this sort of purgatory where I was receiving support to essentially stop myself from spiraling into, into a depressive episode or, or having a full on mental breakdown during this very tumultuous period of police investigations and evidence gathering.
00:35:13.760 And, uh, you know, uh, you know, going, uh, you know, going back and forth to the CPS and my, and my, uh, the police sergeant that was in charge of my case, but I, I wasn't able to, to really address any of the, the deep rooted issues.
00:35:29.080 And so that's something that many people don't know, you know, while, while this very long laborious court, uh, court proceeding is taking place, victims and survivors aren't actually able to get the support they need in the way they need it in many cases.
00:35:42.640 Sam, listening to your story, the one thing that, I mean, there are many things that I find very upsetting.
00:35:49.420 Uh, someone who used to teach and used to teach vulnerable kids because they used to teach in very, very deprived areas.
00:35:55.140 I know for a fact that gangs, that these types of individuals, they target the vulnerable.
00:36:01.620 They target the, the girls or the boys who don't come from stable family backgrounds, the ones who struggle at school, the ones who are for whatever,
00:36:12.640 reason, vulnerable, vulnerable or labeled as difficult.
00:36:15.300 And the fact that these victims won't get their day in court because they won't, in inverted commas, play well in front of a jury, I find utterly disgusting.
00:36:26.300 Absolutely. I, I, and this is, this is what I, this is the point that I was getting to earlier,
00:36:31.420 where, uh, victims and survivors have every possible immutable characteristic exploited and, and turned against them when they try and seek justice for the abuse they suffered.
00:36:44.200 Many, as you said, many victims of this particular type of crime, and it isn't just criminal, sexual exploitation, it's criminal exploitation of children as well,
00:36:53.200 come from disadvantaged backgrounds, whether they, you know, in, in, in the case of, of child sexual exploitation, many of the victims in Telford, not all of them,
00:37:01.320 because any child can be abused, any child can be exploited, anyone can fall victim to this sort of, this sort of crime.
00:37:07.980 And I don't want to denigrate the experiences of any survivors, but many survivors were already known to social services, they were already in care,
00:37:16.560 they had difficult family backgrounds, their parents were, you know, alcoholics or addicted to drugs or absent or whatever it is.
00:37:24.100 Many of the, many of the survivors and victims in, in cases like in towns and cities like Telford were from a disadvantaged or vulnerable background.
00:37:34.080 And so it begs the question, with all of these services that are supposed to be around supporting children, supporting these kinds of children,
00:37:40.640 how did everyone seem to, to fail to see the signs or fail to take action to protect them?
00:37:47.400 In, in the case of social services, there was, as I said, in, in Telford, for example, a massive failing, failure to, to not notice the signs, but to act on them.
00:37:58.300 Because it was, you know, there were, there were children that were going to sexual health clinics for the morning after pill every single week.
00:38:03.400 There were children as young as 13 or 14 that were having abortions, who told the, the work, their social workers,
00:38:09.020 oh, I've got a boyfriend who's 27 or, or, or whatever.
00:38:12.940 Oh, this is happening. This is happening to me. This is what I was doing. This is where I was.
00:38:16.840 And yet no, no further action was taken.
00:38:19.920 I think that it, it really speaks to, and the, the point that I was making earlier as well about the justice system being more than misogynistic.
00:38:30.960 It isn't just that many of these victims were little girls.
00:38:35.160 It's that they were from backgrounds that were less than ideal.
00:38:38.240 They didn't fit the cocky cutter profile of the perfect victim.
00:38:41.500 They weren't going to be able to, and this is something that I always get.
00:38:45.860 I get a lot of people on Twitter that especially that say, it's always Twitter, isn't it?
00:38:50.700 Yeah, of course.
00:38:51.520 The armchair experts themselves that say, oh, you don't sound like someone that would have been a victim of, of grooming or sexual abuse.
00:38:58.960 Oh, you don't look like someone that would have, that would have been a victim.
00:39:02.240 And it, it just creates this paradox where any, any child who isn't the, the perfect victim, who doesn't speak well, come from an affluent family, play well in front of a jury, who doesn't tick the boxes of what the, the Crown Prosecution Service is looking for in, in someone that will play well in court.
00:39:22.120 It, it, it suggests that they are somehow less deserving of justice and less deserving of support.
00:39:28.480 And if, if they, if in my, as in my case, you do have, have a, a posh accent, as I've been told, or you, you went to, to a good school, you don't fit the typical victim profile on the other side of things, people somehow believe that, oh, you couldn't possibly have experienced this.
00:39:44.720 This isn't, you know, you, are you sure that this happened? 0.76
00:39:47.920 There's, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't, damned if you're disadvantaged and damned if you're not. 0.98
00:39:52.920 But in the case of child sexual exploitation in particular, you're right that the, that the majority of these girls were white, working class, disadvantaged from, from vulnerable backgrounds and predators, the, those that, that took advantage of them, preyed on their vulnerability and were able to exploit them, groom them, abuse them, rape them, because there was no one around them that was willing to, to protect them. 0.98
00:40:22.920 And Samantha, coming back to, you mentioned the, the, after the, the case and investigation and the case doesn't go to court, you get this full Monty therapy.
00:40:32.760 Was that useful? Was, did that help you in your recovery from everything?
00:40:37.360 I think it was a mixture. I'll be a hundred percent honest and say that.
00:40:41.240 So I, by the time my case was dropped, I had just aged out of the system.
00:40:48.740 So I was no longer able to access.
00:40:50.600 So my social worker closed me, closed my case.
00:40:54.060 I was shoved off and told you're an adult now, go away, leave us alone.
00:40:58.500 Just simply like that?
00:40:59.940 Pretty much.
00:41:00.800 There's, there's no, there's no, there was no continuation of support for me from child services.
00:41:06.500 And during the, obviously during the pandemic, this was exacerbated in the fact that, you know, you weren't able to really see, see your workers face to face and so on.
00:41:15.540 I received a certain amount of support and, and therapeutic intervention, a little bit of the full Monty, but I, I'll be fully honest and say that at the time that I was receiving this, this therapy, I wasn't ready to engage.
00:41:32.600 I wasn't at the point where I was ready enough to, I think part of it was, was because I had spent two years in this limbo of, of living through this experience every day, but not being able to talk about, not about it, not being able to address it.
00:41:45.200 And so by the time that I was able to, to access this full service, I suppose, of therapy, I was scared.
00:41:53.020 I was angry.
00:41:55.080 I was angry that my case has been dropped.
00:41:57.160 I was afraid.
00:41:59.000 I still felt this massive shame and an inability to process it.
00:42:04.020 And I, yeah, I, I, I wasn't ready to, to go through it.
00:42:08.100 I'm now in a far better place.
00:42:09.500 And I am engaging with therapy.
00:42:09.980 Well, this is what I'm kind of trying to get out, Samantha.
00:42:11.600 What I'm trying to get out of you is how come you're so well put together?
00:42:15.460 It's like, you've obviously moved on.
00:42:18.080 Yeah.
00:42:18.320 And you've moved past it and you're now living your life and you're very accomplished and very successful.
00:42:23.160 And you've got a bright future and you're at university studying law and everything's brilliant, right?
00:42:27.980 And, and, and the thing that's, well, not everything, nothing's ever brilliant.
00:42:30.920 Oh, I was just going to say, I know it's not very, it's not very trendy to say, but medication, medication really helped me.
00:42:39.320 I'm on, and this is getting a little bit vulnerable, I suppose, but I, I'm on antidepressants.
00:42:46.520 I'm on anti-anxiety medication.
00:42:48.140 I'm on sleeping tablets.
00:42:50.260 I take sleeping tablets most nights to, to keep myself going.
00:42:54.300 I have brilliant, wonderful support systems now that I didn't have when I was younger.
00:43:01.000 You know, my, and I'll always say I'm, although everything that happened to me was, was awful and horrible.
00:43:07.040 I was very, very lucky to go to a wonderful school.
00:43:10.060 I went to a, to a little grammar school in, in the middle of the Shropshire countryside that took two, that took over two hours to get to in the morning.
00:43:18.140 So don't get me wrong.
00:43:18.680 It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows, but I, you know, when I was homeless, when I was sofa surfing, my head of year, who I will always regard as someone that saved my life and someone that I'm, she's my, she's my phone background.
00:43:31.280 Actually, she's on my lock screen, a photo of me and her, um, she did my laundry for me.
00:43:36.400 She let me keep my bags, keep my clothes in her office when I, when I didn't, when I didn't, you know, I wasn't able to carry them around with me every night.
00:43:44.780 She made sure that I could shower at school when I didn't have access to a shower.
00:43:47.700 She ensured that I had at least one hot meal a day, every day, bought me toiletries and a towel and things like that. 1.00
00:43:54.720 Now at the stage that I'm at in, in my life at the moment, my MP, my local MP, the MP for Telford, Lucy Allen, she helped me like absolutely no one else.
00:44:05.400 And I, I, you always hear that age old stereotype of Tories don't care about anyone but themselves.
00:44:11.020 And I would say that she, in my opinion, defies that stereotype.
00:44:15.420 She took a chance on a 17 year old with no experience and, and a very difficult background, gave me a shot during the 2019 campaign.
00:44:25.020 She took me under her wing.
00:44:26.800 I ended up working for her for, for nearly two years before I went to university.
00:44:31.480 She is one of the, my biggest supporters and an absolutely amazing mentor that I'm privileged to have.
00:44:39.340 There are other, other amazing people that I have in my life who I can go to for advice, for support, for a shoulder to cry on.
00:44:45.420 Or someone to lean on when I'm having a tough day, because not every day is like this.
00:44:49.980 I spend, there are days that I, and again, getting a bit vulnerable, but there are days that I spend just curled up in bed, watching Netflix and not able to do anything.
00:44:58.020 Because it's, it's, and this is something about the process that isn't off, that isn't always talked about.
00:45:03.600 You know, you see polished products on, on TV with hair done and, and makeup on and a nice jumper.
00:45:11.820 I'm very sorry.
00:45:12.940 Mate, we're wearing more makeup than her.
00:45:14.720 What are you talking about?
00:45:17.320 Once you get into your forties.
00:45:19.140 Yeah, you go, yeah, this is the best it's going to be.
00:45:21.760 But yeah, this is, it's a journey, I would say.
00:45:24.660 And I'm not, I'm by no means perfect.
00:45:27.400 I'm by no means healed.
00:45:29.260 But yeah, I'd say that's how I get through it on a day-to-day basis.
00:45:32.220 I've got amazing support systems now that I, that I'm very grateful to have and that I didn't have when I was younger.
00:45:38.100 I am very well medicated.
00:45:41.260 And I just take every day as, as it comes.
00:45:45.100 And how, how have your experiences shaped how you think about, you know, you mentioned working for a conservative MP.
00:45:53.340 How have your experiences shaped how you think about the world?
00:45:56.320 Because you mentioned not wanting to be a victim.
00:45:59.160 And of all the people in the world who could be a victim if they wanted to and who could cash in on it and capitalize on it,
00:46:07.180 someone in your position is like perfectly placed to do that.
00:46:10.680 And it's the trendy thing nowadays to be a victim.
00:46:13.660 And you get people who, you know, had two parents, went to a nice school, went to a good university.
00:46:19.080 And because of the color of their skin or because they're a woman or because of this, they're on TV talking about how oppressed they are.
00:46:24.940 And here you are saying, I don't want to be a victim.
00:46:27.200 It's the monopoly of victimhood, isn't it? 0.60
00:46:29.260 I think as, as cliche as it sounds, I've learned to realize what the big things are, what the big issues are.
00:46:41.200 And I guess that's partly because of what I experienced.
00:46:45.940 But I've come to realize that a bad hair day isn't the end of the world.
00:46:49.620 And, you know, this idea that everyone has to be a victim, that your horrible experiences or your inherent immutable characteristics
00:47:00.260 somehow make you more or less deserving of special treatment or support or the victimhood badge,
00:47:09.480 I just don't buy into any of it.
00:47:12.360 And that's part of the reason why I'm a conservative.
00:47:14.260 I always get asked, why are you a conservative?
00:47:17.980 Surely you'd be a Labour supporter.
00:47:20.140 Surely you'd be left-wing if you have gone through all of this.
00:47:23.540 You know, you were a victim of the system.
00:47:25.140 How are you not left-wing?
00:47:26.820 How do you not want to change it?
00:47:28.220 And I always respond in that I do want to change it.
00:47:30.820 But I don't think that you can enforce change and impact change by perpetuating that victimhood.
00:47:38.840 I think that there's something deeply anti-aspirational about this whole identity politics, critical race theory,
00:47:48.720 you know, identitarian victimhood, victimhood, I don't know, story.
00:47:56.860 Culture.
00:47:57.860 Yeah, culture. Sorry.
00:47:58.880 No, no, don't quote us.
00:47:59.960 But, yeah, I just think that there's something so deeply anti-aspirational about it.
00:48:05.780 The idea that if you have gone through a terrible time or you were born with a different colour skin,
00:48:11.760 that you are always going to be behind and that nothing is ever going to go your way,
00:48:16.420 that you need to have special treatment, you need to have the white man step aside for you to be successful.
00:48:22.660 It suggests that people aren't capable of succeeding off their own merit.
00:48:27.360 And I think that with the right support, and don't get me wrong,
00:48:30.420 especially for those that have experienced child sexual exploitation or grooming or child sexual abuse,
00:48:37.340 it is very, very hard.
00:48:40.040 It isn't easy to pick yourself up and to get out of that.
00:48:45.580 But with the right sort of support, anyone is capable of achieving.
00:48:51.760 And I think that the conservative messaging and motto is far more akin to aspiration and hand-ups,
00:49:00.180 not hand-outs, than the left-wing rhetoric.
00:49:02.860 I think that there's just, there's nothing that I see that is fruitful or progressive or positive
00:49:15.740 about telling people that you're a victim, you should feel angry at the world,
00:49:20.500 you should hate everyone around you for making life so tough for you.
00:49:25.260 No, it should be, the messaging should be, yes, life can be bad,
00:49:30.240 life can be really, really, really sucky, but you are capable of achieving,
00:49:36.060 you're capable of doing something better, you're capable of lifting yourself out of that situation.
00:49:39.700 And these are the things that we want to do to support you with that.
00:49:44.380 This is a question that I didn't think I was going to ask,
00:49:46.740 but you're such a remarkable person that I'm going to ask it.
00:49:50.420 What do you think about the way that we talk about exploitation, rape, abuse in the media now,
00:49:58.060 and particularly with things like Me Too, et cetera, et cetera?
00:50:01.540 Do you think we discuss it in an honest way?
00:50:03.460 Do you disagree with the way that we discuss it?
00:50:06.900 I think that the one thing I would say is, while, again, the conversation is more open than it used to be,
00:50:13.300 people still aren't being candid about the nature of this type of crime.
00:50:17.640 What are we not saying?
00:50:19.060 I mean, in my own experience, I've been asked going on shows before,
00:50:23.080 can you not mention the word rape, or can you not mention the word Pakistan?
00:50:26.880 Yeah, you shouldn't have done that.
00:50:29.920 That is me down to a T. Is that something I'll put my foot right in?
00:50:34.120 It's essentially a gagging clause that, you know, you're allowed to discuss this,
00:50:38.860 but only...
00:50:39.080 So when you're doing, like, TV or radio, that type of thing.
00:50:40.520 Yeah, but only if it's...
00:50:40.920 Well, they're asking you not to say the word rape, or not to mention the race or the...
00:50:44.960 Because somehow it is too much for the modernists.
00:50:49.640 It's unpalatable to talk about it in such frank detail.
00:50:55.700 And I think that that's what I would say needs to be improved upon.
00:51:00.200 Because realistically, if the police can say...
00:51:04.360 If the police were allowed to say that white working class girls, 1.00
00:51:07.960 victims of child sexual exploitation were white slags and packy shaggers, 1.00
00:51:10.840 why can I not repeat it on national TV and expose exactly what it is that they said? 0.99
00:51:15.320 Why is there this double standard in the media and in television and radio
00:51:20.300 that somehow the girls that were abused, raped, exploited, groomed 0.88
00:51:25.980 by predominantly Pakistani Muslim men were forced to go through this, 0.94
00:51:32.360 but we as a society can't bear repeating it in open and honest detail.
00:51:38.180 I think that the conversation is far from frank and open and honest,
00:51:43.400 and that there needs to be a lot more done to unwrap the cotton wool around the mainstream media
00:51:48.700 and say that as long as we have these sensitivities and these no-go areas
00:51:55.540 around the topic of rape and exploitation,
00:51:58.840 then little girls are going to continue to be abused, 1.00
00:52:01.040 because it just furthers this culture of ignorance and victim-blaming and silence and shame.
00:52:06.380 Silence only serves to protect the perpetrators of this crime,
00:52:12.680 and cultural sensitivity, political correctness only serves to protect the predators.
00:52:19.600 Samantha, do you think one of the reasons why, with the Me Too movement,
00:52:24.100 Harvey Weinstein was such a huge figure is that, and push back if you disagree on this,
00:52:28.260 is because he very neatly encapsulated what we want a villain to be.
00:52:32.860 You know, he's a rich white guy who's powerful, you know,
00:52:36.700 and people felt that they couldn't, you know, they couldn't challenge him.
00:52:40.680 And he obviously acted, it was just him, and then everybody else kind of obeyed him.
00:52:46.700 And also his victims are very high-status women usually, right? 0.78
00:52:50.180 Yeah.
00:52:50.340 So that helps.
00:52:50.920 Yeah.
00:52:51.160 I did a piece for the Mail on this issue, exactly, the Harvey Weinstein and,
00:52:54.720 and the Harvey Weinstein issue, and the Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell case.
00:52:59.980 The reason why these celebrity cases, the same with Prince Andrew, were such a national scandal,
00:53:07.960 why the papers were doing double-page spreads on Ghislaine Maxwell's court outfit,
00:53:12.460 and covering it wall-to-wall for weeks and weeks, was because it appeals,
00:53:17.440 it appeals to our societal, our societal intrigue and interest with the, with the idea of celebrity.
00:53:25.740 These were, this was a lifestyle that the ordinary person couldn't even dream of, you know,
00:53:31.240 private jets and, and Epstein Island and celebrities,
00:53:35.700 and millions of dollars being traded for sexual, for sexual favors.
00:53:39.440 It was very much glamorized and mystified and played into the, into the myth of Hollywood,
00:53:46.560 I would say.
00:53:47.660 And, and it was far more glamorous to talk about billionaires on, on private boats and, 0.85
00:53:53.320 and islands than, you know, a, a working class white girl from Telford being, being raped 0.52
00:54:00.120 around the back of, of a, of a kebab shop.
00:54:02.860 It's, it's, in, in my opinion, it was so, it was so highly covered because the victims,
00:54:11.860 the perpetrators, and to some extent the victims, were celebrities.
00:54:15.880 They were part of this jet-setting lifestyle that many of us can only dream of.
00:54:19.720 Whereas, once again, it isn't, it isn't glamorous or cool or fashionable to talk about little girls
00:54:24.380 in Rotherham, Rochdale, Oldham, Banbury, Telford, et cetera, being groomed and exploited by predominantly
00:54:30.260 Pakistani men.
00:54:31.740 And do you think that was one element, or there's, there's lots of elements of the,
00:54:36.920 of the whole Me Too movement that ignored these types of crimes?
00:54:41.940 I think that the Me Too movement is a, is a difficult one because that it was very much,
00:54:49.380 it existed in a time and place in, in Hollywood specifically, I would say.
00:54:54.920 It was the idea that it was, it was demystifying the, the Hollywood myth and showing that sexual
00:55:01.440 abuse and exploitation and, and harassment was very much alive and well in Hollywood and show it and
00:55:08.260 lifting the lid on this culture of misogyny and, and grooming and, and victim blaming within Hollywood.
00:55:15.140 I think that child sexual exploitation and abuse is completely removed from that.
00:55:19.920 It's a, it's an entirely different kettle of fish because, and, and this isn't me saying that,
00:55:25.460 that it shouldn't be, that people shouldn't raise the sort of awareness of child sexual exploitation
00:55:32.540 that they did of the Me Too movement.
00:55:33.680 But I think that, again, it's, it's, it all comes down to the class of the victims and the perpetrators.
00:55:40.860 The Me Too movement was a, specifically focused on this celebrity, the celebrity lifestyle.
00:55:48.500 And it did snowball some, to some extent, and there were ordinary women, quote unquote, 1.00
00:55:52.920 that were speaking out about the abuse they experienced, but it was very much to do with
00:55:56.940 Hollywood and, and the celebrity world and the, the sexual harassment that was going on there.
00:56:02.700 Whereas what is happening in towns like Telford, Rotherham, Watchdale, et cetera, is a lot closer to home.
00:56:10.840 It's a grooming crisis in our own backyards.
00:56:13.500 And that is very, very different from the Me Too movement.
00:56:17.880 Samantha, there's one other question that I wanted to ask you, because of all the people
00:56:22.360 that we've interviewed, pretty much, other than Ella, you have more reason than anyone,
00:56:25.740 I think, to hate men.
00:56:26.660 And we do live in a society where increasingly that narrative, from certain quarters, at least,
00:56:33.920 seems to me like it is being advanced and it is being pushed and, you know, toxic masculinity,
00:56:38.980 this and men are that and the patriarchy and the this and the that.
00:56:42.580 And like I say, I mean, if you were, if you were to sit in that chair and go, you know what, 1.00
00:56:46.200 I think men are trash. 0.98
00:56:47.300 I'd be like, you know what, I generally don't agree. 0.99
00:56:49.340 But I think you've got a reason to.
00:56:51.120 You've got to pass.
00:56:52.320 You've got to, you can say that.
00:56:54.620 What do you make of the way we have the conversations around these issues, men and women, men's roles,
00:57:00.540 women's roles in society, et cetera? 1.00
00:57:03.080 I think there's a very big difference between hating men and wanting to change the culture
00:57:11.100 around masculinity and the way that women are treated in society.
00:57:15.380 I don't hate men.
00:57:16.480 I think that many men are perfectly decent and upstanding human beings.
00:57:21.920 I'm not, I'm definitely not putting on my tinfoil hat and raising my pitchfork and my steak
00:57:26.940 and calling for all of them to be burned in the town square.
00:57:30.860 But I think that the way that the conversation needs to be had,
00:57:35.100 and this is the problem with some radical feminist movements, 1.00
00:57:38.440 I would call myself a feminist, but I wouldn't say that I'm a new wave or a current feminist
00:57:42.580 in the way that it seems to have spiraled now where, you know, people say the future is female 0.99
00:57:49.440 and F all men and that we should eat all men, that all men are awful, horrible, nasty criminals 0.99
00:58:00.240 and that they should all be, you know, expelled from society. 1.00
00:58:04.960 The conversation really needs to be around how can we deconstruct these ideas of toxic masculinity
00:58:16.100 and misogyny in society because misogyny is still a very, very big problem,
00:58:21.380 especially in the major institutions of this country and across the world.
00:58:25.020 The police, the government, the way that women are treated in all areas of society still needs to be improved
00:58:33.780 and it would be remiss to, obviously women can be perpetrators of sexual abuse as well, 1.00
00:58:39.720 that does happen, but in the majority of cases men are the perpetrators
00:58:44.540 and women are the victims or little girls or little boys are the victims, women and children.
00:58:49.400 So it's about having an honest and open conversation, but also not villainizing everybody.
00:58:56.760 There's, I think that we seem to have lost nuance in modern political debates.
00:59:01.540 There's no ability for people to say that this, and it's the same with Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs, 0.95
00:59:07.740 that you aren't able to say that not all Pakistani people are bad, not all Muslims are bad,
00:59:12.620 but there is a significant problem within this community that is unique for the most part to this community.
00:59:20.080 This is going on and we need to figure out how we can address it.
00:59:23.360 It's the same with men. People say, oh, it's not all men that do this.
00:59:26.760 You know, women can be rapists too, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1.00
00:59:29.040 Yes, that's true. I'm not denying that. 0.99
00:59:31.480 I don't think that anyone is denying that it's not all men that are perpetrators of sexual abuse,
00:59:38.220 but there are too many women that are victims. 1.00
00:59:40.400 There was a, I think it was an NSPCC study that came out that found that I think it was like 96% of girls
00:59:51.280 had experienced some sort of sexual harassment before the age of 16.
00:59:55.480 That's a staggering figure.
00:59:58.220 So yes, it isn't all men, but it's too many women, in my opinion. 1.00
01:00:01.840 So we can have this conversation and say that there is a problem with a lot of men abusing women and children, 0.94
01:00:09.580 but that doesn't mean that it's all men that are bad and evil and horrible.
01:00:13.860 And this is where maybe I would add even a little bit more news.
01:00:16.780 The fact that there are a lot of female victims does not mean that there are a lot of male perpetrators necessarily, right?
01:00:22.860 It could be that a small minority of people commit a lot of those offenses or do a lot of those things over time.
01:00:28.480 And I think that's maybe where part of the nuance is getting lost because I actually happen to think,
01:00:33.080 and this is just my opinion, that one of the solutions to some of these problems is for men who are not like that to have more of a role in protecting women.
01:00:43.080 Absolutely.
01:00:43.220 And I think that's where my concern is sometimes when we start to tar people with the same brush,
01:00:49.660 you're actually pushing good men away from being involved and being active in looking after people
01:00:54.900 because that is, you know, it's not a fashionable thing to say,
01:00:58.740 but that is part of men's jobs is to protect others, you know, protect children, protect women, protect partners, etc.
01:01:05.040 And I think we're losing that a little bit as well.
01:01:07.140 I think that you're absolutely right in the fact that men can do a lot more to help protect women and children.
01:01:15.600 I think that it's the discussion that's had the topic of what can we be doing to raise our sons and our young men to be better than previous generations that came before them.
01:01:30.700 You know, it starts at a very young age.
01:01:33.320 And this toxic ideology and this idea that women are somehow beneath men or that they are only to be used for sexual gratification or pleasure,
01:01:43.480 that somehow women are inferior, needs to be tackled and addressed. 1.00
01:01:47.780 In the same way when it comes to racism, it needs to, you know, people aren't born racist. 0.86
01:01:53.120 People aren't born sexual predators.
01:01:55.240 This behavior is learned.
01:01:56.880 There was a case in Telford, it's an ongoing case, so I won't comment on it too much,
01:02:00.680 but there was an ongoing case in Telford of a boy, a 13-year-old boy who has been arrested for, I believe it's nine counts of rape and several other sexual assaults of women aged, of women and girls aged 16 to 34.
01:02:16.680 This is a 13-year-old boy that has been accused of these crimes.
01:02:20.600 He wasn't born that way.
01:02:22.200 This behavior is learned, whether he learned it from his father or his schoolmates or his uncle or his brothers or whoever it is, 0.58
01:02:30.900 someone taught this little boy that it was okay to sexually assault women.
01:02:36.700 And so tackling that at a very young age and dispelling this sort of ideology and teaching young boys how to be good men,
01:02:47.100 how to be good, upstanding, law-abiding, respectful citizens is the key, I think, to making a difference.
01:02:57.080 But let's not get it twisted.
01:02:58.880 People will always, there will always be bad people in the world.
01:03:02.280 People will always rape, abuse, exploit.
01:03:05.040 People will always be horrible.
01:03:08.020 But I think that so long as we continue to put up these barriers to open and honest conversation,
01:03:16.460 and one of those barriers is this lack of nuance and the rhetoric that all men are bad
01:03:22.940 and that all men should be exiled and whatever.
01:03:26.600 Well, like I say, you'd be forgiven for saying that if you wanted to.
01:03:31.480 But I guess my point would be with that 13-year-old boy, you actually think you,
01:03:34.960 I think you put your finger on it, which is if that boy had a father in the home
01:03:39.140 who taught him how to treat women properly, that never would have happened, right? 0.92
01:03:42.720 And I think that's part of the answer as well is for men to be better.
01:03:47.320 I think that's really important.
01:03:49.280 Samantha, anyway, it's been a real pleasure speaking with you,
01:03:51.460 although obviously it's a difficult conversation but an important one.
01:03:54.380 And I'm really glad we've been able to have you on to keep reminding people that these things aren't over.
01:04:00.740 It's still going on.
01:04:01.980 There's still work to do.
01:04:03.480 And we thank you for sharing your story with us and for coming on.
01:04:07.220 You've got a bright future ahead of you, so we wish you all the best.
01:04:10.540 Before we let you go, we've got our final question and some questions from our supporters
01:04:14.600 that they've already submitted.
01:04:16.000 Our final question, as always, is what's the one thing we're not talking about
01:04:19.140 as a society that you think we really should be?
01:04:22.520 I'm going to go a little bit left field here.
01:04:24.680 Because we've obviously talked a lot about child sexual exploitation, grooming,
01:04:29.620 and I would say that would be the obvious answer for what we need to be talking about more in society.
01:04:33.840 So I'm going to keep it light here and say opera.
01:04:37.100 Opera is the thing that we need to be talking about more.
01:04:38.980 And I don't think my Twitter followers, I tweeted about it earlier, and I don't think that it was a bit too niche for them.
01:04:45.140 But I believe that opera is the best genre of music out there.
01:04:49.420 I believe that it should be mainstream, that everyone should be taking their children to see La Traviata or Carmen or Così Fan Tutti.
01:04:57.980 I think that opera needs to be spoken about and revered more than it is in society.
01:05:04.400 Spoken like a real conservative.
01:05:06.800 What can I say?
01:05:07.960 You know, my grandfather, here's a story for you.
01:05:09.660 My grandfather was a working class joiner brought up in Wigan in the north of England.
01:05:15.080 And he volunteered to join the army during the Second World War.
01:05:19.520 And he went and part of where he fought was in Italy.
01:05:23.520 And he fell in love with opera.
01:05:25.620 He fell in love with opera.
01:05:26.680 He fell in love with Italy.
01:05:27.600 So he came back and he was working in the railways with all these big other working class men. 0.96
01:05:36.200 And they all thought he was a bit odd because he would be there working whilst listening to La Traviata.
01:05:41.180 I love that.
01:05:42.560 I think that, you know, opera is, and this is turning into a conversation about accessibility in opera,
01:05:48.080 but opera is far more accessible than it used to be.
01:05:51.400 And there's a joy to be found in appreciating a good musical score.
01:05:56.620 Forget what, forget Lizzo and Sam Smith and Harry Styles and all of this modern filth that's getting put out.
01:06:03.920 I want to...
01:06:04.920 You are so conservative, Samantha.
01:06:07.720 It's modern filth!
01:06:09.040 I think, I always like to think of myself as an 85-year-old woman trapped in a young person's body. 0.54
01:06:17.460 You know, all I want is to sit at home with a glass of wine.
01:06:20.640 And I do this sometimes.
01:06:21.360 Sit at home with a glass of wine and a, you know, a camembert and listen to Cosi Fan Tutti or La Boheme on the radio.
01:06:32.940 It's something that I think we need to get, reject modernity and embrace tradition.
01:06:38.400 That's my message for all of your lovely followers.
01:06:40.720 We're going to call this episode, ban this modern filth.
01:06:46.380 Samantha, where can people find you online if they want to follow your work and follow along with your career?
01:06:52.440 I'm on Twitter, at Samantha Taghoy.
01:06:55.280 That's T-A-G-H-O-Y, spelled as it sounds.
01:06:59.520 I'm not really active on anything else.
01:07:01.960 I think that Twitter is my poison of choice.
01:07:05.620 But if people are interested in reading my print journalism, I'm a columnist for The Spectator and The Daily Mail.
01:07:12.820 If you search Samantha Smith Spectator or Samantha Smith Daily Mail, you might find a 1970s peace activist first.
01:07:20.240 But I'll be the second one that shows up.
01:07:22.740 So, yeah, that's the way that people can find me.
01:07:25.060 Thank you so much for coming on.
01:07:26.240 It's been a real pleasure to meet you.
01:07:27.500 And thank you for watching and listening.
01:07:29.040 We'll see you on Locals for the bonus questions.
01:07:31.200 Take care and see you soon.
01:07:33.760 If I could ask the government to enact one policy right now, it would be to...