TRIGGERnometry - Have Conservatives Lost the Culture War？ - Ed West

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00:00:30.560 Progressives, basically, you know, they came out, well, there was a generational thing.

00:00:33.180 They were the youngsters of the 60s, they're fighting against their parents.

00:00:36.740 And it was an ideology that sort of came out of rebellion.

00:00:39.920 And it's always defined itself by, you know, by being, you know, against the man.

00:00:43.960 And then once you are the man, like, what do you do then?

00:00:52.880 Hello, man. Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:55.480 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:56.920 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:58.000 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:03.740 Our brilliant guest today is a writer for Unheard and an author, Ed West.

00:01:07.200 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:07.980 Thank you for having me.

00:01:08.760 It's so great to have you on.

00:01:10.500 We've been really enjoying many of the articles you wrote and your latest book,

00:01:14.640 Small Men on the Wrong Side of History, which is about the decline and potential unlikely

00:01:19.240 return of conservatism, as you put it.

00:01:21.340 And we'll get into that, of course.

00:01:23.240 But before we get into the conversation itself, let me ask you a very broad question,

00:01:27.400 which is mainly who are you how are you where you are what has been your journey through life

00:01:31.360 um well as i sort of put in the book the book is basically a bit of autobiography as well um i'm

00:01:37.500 one of those lame people who's never went on that sort of journey from left to right which i sort of

00:01:42.120 i always feel jealous of those people because um i suppose i was basically always quite conservative

00:01:46.780 and uh but as i got older i sort of noticed my friends were actually becoming like more liberal

00:01:53.740 as the whole world basically went in the direction.

00:01:57.160 So that was the amazing book.

00:01:58.580 I'm from London.

00:01:59.700 My parents are both journalists.

00:02:01.480 So it was kind of inevitable that I'd get into this.

00:02:04.520 My dad was a foreign correspondent during the Cold War

00:02:07.160 and he started off as a communist

00:02:09.400 and he became very reactionary, like comically reactionary.

00:02:13.220 So he went full Peter Hitchens, did he?

00:02:15.000 Oh, yeah.

00:02:15.360 I think he went beyond Peter Hitchens.

00:02:17.580 He was like anti-enlightenment he thought was a terrible idea.

00:02:21.080 He was basically pro-medieval.

00:02:23.740 um yeah so a bit eccentric so that's why i think that you know basically influenced me so i was

00:02:31.520 basically born with the red pill you know my mouth it was just there was never any of that

00:02:35.920 youthful frolicking with liberalism um so yeah so that was very much like the cold war sort of

00:02:41.460 background atmosphere so we sort of knew all about that um you know communism was kind of this great

00:02:46.980 evil um and now i've grown up and the communists are sort of winning i think in a way in a strange

00:02:52.940 way well psychologically yeah we'll get into that because one of the most fascinating articles i've

00:02:58.740 read in recent times was your piece about how actually the cultural revolution is complete

00:03:03.180 right maybe let's get right into that tell when you say the communists are kind of winning what

00:03:08.260 do you mean it sounds a bit reds under the bed to a lot of people yeah it probably might make me 0.84

00:03:12.520 sound like a bit of a loony but that's probably true um my basic thing is what i noticed about

00:03:16.960 you know the kind of people in the past you'd have like personality traits match politics so

00:03:21.080 if you're quite um if you're quite conscientious and uptight and you know really obsessed like

00:03:25.960 i was really early today because i'm conservative i hate being late um so conscientious people tend

00:03:31.140 to be like quite conservative while people are more neurotic and more open-minded tend to be

00:03:36.720 liberal so that's why the arts are liberal but what i noticed more and more recently is that if

00:03:41.860 you meet someone who's very conscientious and uptight the kind of person in the 50s who would

00:03:45.260 be like you know your arch conservative they now the young ones anyway tend to sort of believe in

00:03:51.460 all the sort of progressive sort of ideas the dominant ideas you know they will you know they

00:03:56.920 will be obviously very pro-remain um they will be they'll be quite sympathetic to blm because it's

00:04:02.300 like a decent thing to do you know quality um and so gareth southgate was basically like a sort of

00:04:08.580 stopping our point of that article you know he said that we should take the knee and i thought

00:04:11.960 well, it's kind of interesting that now that's what happens

00:04:14.660 when a revolution is done.

00:04:16.620 The actual revolution has become quite conservative

00:04:18.760 because now they're fixed in place.

00:04:20.920 They control things.

00:04:21.720 I mean, it's the same with the communist regimes in Eastern Europe

00:04:24.200 were very conservative.

00:04:25.260 They're full of old men. 1.00

00:04:26.100 They hated change.

00:04:27.480 They were now fixed in place.

00:04:30.840 And so they had their own moral order and they didn't want to change.

00:04:34.900 And I think that's what's kind of happened.

00:04:36.660 The period we grew up in, I mean, especially comedy,

00:04:39.980 like the golden age of comedy was probably around the turn of the millennium in my view because

00:04:44.740 um everything was kind of up for grabs everything was like seinfeld was all about because no one

00:04:50.780 knows what the what is like the social norm about stuff there's less confusion um now that so much

00:04:57.160 comedy which couldn't be made in 2000 i mean which was made like that period which couldn't

00:05:00.780 have been made in the 60s now can't be made again i use the example of life of brian which could

00:05:05.460 never been made now uh just as it could never have been made in 1960 i mean the joke about

00:05:10.100 you know a man who calls himself a woman which would obviously have been so self-evidently

00:05:15.140 stupid in that time you just that would be impossible to make now um you couldn't blaspheme 0.94

00:05:20.040 jesus because he's a prophet of islam uh you know i mean there is basically a de facto blasphemy law 0.99

00:05:28.240 about islam is that people don't want to be beheaded generally um it's not a good career 1.00

00:05:32.440 most it's generally not a good you know generally i mean loads of people come up this oh you know

00:05:37.180 well i think i want to punch down i don't want to you know because they're in my notes it's like

00:05:40.460 i want my head on my body that's like a base it's about fear yeah yeah um but then you know

00:05:45.640 the trans thing is also you know that's also enforcing fear and that's a sort of new like 0.99

00:05:51.520 pride like all the sort of the teenagers like love pride and pride is basically the same as

00:05:57.500 like 100 years ago or 50 years ago if you went to malta or ireland or poland and the corpus

00:06:02.420 christie procession where in june all the kids dress up and you know uh show their faith in the

00:06:10.420 sort of state religion and now pride is basically that i mean that so to summarize your argument

00:06:15.060 what you're really saying is we had a cultural revolution yeah where a lot of these progressive

00:06:20.400 ideas were advanced and embedded into society and now we're at the point where it's the sort

00:06:25.560 of middle management rung of society the people who who used to be the face of conservatism

00:06:31.360 tradition etc this has become the new conservative tradition in a way this says even i mean it's

00:06:36.400 based on some very like unconservative ideas fundamentally progressivism is unconservative

00:06:41.040 because it's you know it's based on a blank slate it's all these kind of ideas but i mean you know

00:06:45.640 the scott alexander i don't know if you follow he writes his blog in california it's just great

00:06:49.540 it's the best blog and he makes the example you know he talks about the kind of like maiden aunt

00:06:54.420 in the 50s who disapproved of everyone and you know the one the kind of classic maiden aunt 1.00

00:06:59.240 young men really didn't like because they were stopped and having fun you know so tell you off

00:07:03.380 your language tell you off about what you're saying you're reading the wrong books those

00:07:08.040 if you heard about someone who is stopping you reading books now or telling you about language

00:07:11.720 you can guarantee 100% they'll be on the left it'll be I mean it's almost guaranteed you know

00:07:16.180 that same person is now saying you can't read that book because that kind of that book because

00:07:20.400 it's racist rather than you know because it was sexual or um you know I don't want these bad

00:07:24.500 people who have the wrong ideas sort of i mean there are just you know there are so many different

00:07:29.740 examples of that where there is you know ideas are now fixed and there are sort of moral codes

00:07:35.180 you know like we had the c words and now it's the n words i mean i think in the sense you know

00:07:39.880 every society needs these kind of taboos and needs these you know things that can't be said

00:07:44.460 um but you know it's and also the other thing is the moral relativism that was a massive thing

00:07:50.940 you know that was a classic sort of like daily mail things oh these moral relativists like when

00:07:55.560 was the last time you heard that talked about the left being moral relativists then they're not i

00:07:59.760 mean they are completely the most i mean i wasn't left broadly i mean sort of the activists on

00:08:04.620 campus the sort of progressives you know the woke people they're not moral relatives they're

00:08:08.700 absolutely um confirmed in their moral beliefs you know there's there's no doubt about it whatsoever

00:08:13.700 so that's what happens when you take control you don't allow these kind of questions of of doubt

00:08:19.660 anymore. And what effect does that have on society that we're not allowed to question,

00:08:23.680 that we're not allowed to play with these kind of ideas? I mean, I think you can never

00:08:29.320 have effective outcomes if you have taboos about what is true. I mean, I think the Afghanistan 0.96

00:08:34.420 thing is a classic example. I mean, the US has spent, is it a trillion? It's going to be two

00:08:39.660 trillion when you deal with all the broken lives back in America. This was all based on a completely 0.98

00:08:44.540 fraudulent idea of what is possible with Afghanistan. It's a completely naive idea 1.00

00:08:50.780 we can turn Afghanistan into a liberal state. It's a very tribal culture, even taking away the 1.00

00:08:55.720 religious, because there are Muslim countries which can be liberal, but Afghanistan is an 1.00

00:08:59.720 incredibly clannish society. It's just never going to happen. If you could openly say, 1.00

00:09:03.200 listen, the Afghans are not going to be liberal Democrats. There's huge amounts of taboos about 0.97

00:09:07.700 stuff like that. So instead, that kind of really wasn't discussed properly. The result was thousands

00:09:11.860 of deaths 20 years of wasted lives you know two trillion dollars you know you should have

00:09:15.700 absolutely i don't believe there should be no taboos but you should be able to sort of say

00:09:20.120 really uncomfortable truths the truth should not be taboos what you're really saying yeah i mean

00:09:24.260 and there are loads of areas where you know we can never really say honestly what we think the

00:09:30.020 truth is because no one wants their lives are in do i mean no one really wants to be a heretic 1.00

00:09:34.180 do they or i mean they don't crush people don't put them in gulags anymore but no one wants to

00:09:38.540 be unemployable or you know even worse have your you know bank card removed you know in the worst

00:09:44.560 cases i mean let's push back on that a little bit there are people who have made careers that are

00:09:49.700 being cancelled that is one of the arguments and gained a certain notoriety for themselves

00:09:54.520 so is that really true i think there is you know there are certain people enjoy that kind of thing

00:09:59.440 i'm certain you have to be really disagreeable kind of person um you know it's like katie 0.97

00:10:03.960 hopkins or someone who likes being this kind of pantomime villain likes being hated um and then

00:10:08.500 you can make a certain amount even they get you know the career move is very short even like

00:10:13.260 something like milo yannapolis you know eventually he was taken on twitter and it was oh we'll make

00:10:16.780 him stronger and more notorious no just ended his career now he's on something like no mark

00:10:21.920 social website um but very few people i mean and those are sort of professional you know a

00:10:27.740 professional columnist can say these things to a certain extent and be hated and they'll still

00:10:31.840 got a job but it's the people in sort of ordinary jobs who can't say it i mean loads and loads of

00:10:36.080 people have been sacked for example even after the blm thing you know loads of people saying

00:10:39.740 oh you know can i just point out george floyd wasn't like exactly a saint you know he might

00:10:43.560 have actually done some you know been to prison and blah blah and you know like eight there are

00:10:48.260 eight or nine people who are sacked after that in britain um in various small jobs you know

00:10:53.880 there's a policeman who sent a george floyd joke on this you know he was actually prosecuted you

00:10:59.340 He's actually prosecuted by the police.

00:11:01.440 That's not a joke.

00:11:01.960 It's literally a blasphemy law. 0.81

00:11:04.160 I mean, that is a real issue, I think.

00:11:07.980 People do feel slightly scared to voice opinions.

00:11:11.720 They do feel.

00:11:12.560 I completely agree.

00:11:13.780 They do feel scared to voice opinions.

00:11:16.140 How have we let it go this far, though?

00:11:18.100 Because surely the vast majority of people in this country

00:11:22.420 don't agree with that.

00:11:24.220 They don't agree with where we've ended up.

00:11:26.900 I don't know.

00:11:27.240 I mean, how many people are in the Taliban?

00:11:28.500 They're quite small, aren't they?

00:11:29.220 they managed to like take over the country.

00:11:31.640 I mean, I think a very small number of people

00:11:33.040 are quite determined can really share.

00:11:35.100 I mean, what is the latest polls?

00:11:36.400 I mean, like 8% of Americans

00:11:38.820 would identify themselves as woke or something.

00:11:41.860 And, you know, those 8% happen to be

00:11:43.940 disproportionately educated, you know, well-off,

00:11:47.080 influential, and also like very determined.

00:11:48.780 A very small minority can really change the country rapidly,

00:11:52.620 change the culture.

00:11:54.540 And, you know, you'll have that 8%,

00:11:55.760 but you'll have another 20% who probably think,

00:11:57.680 well, you know, I'm not really them with them,

00:11:58.980 but I dislike the right more so give them a you know one of the examples I use in the book is

00:12:04.480 you know the reformation it's you know the reformation started there were tiny little

00:12:08.680 minority in university in not university well in Cambridge and London who are sort of you know

00:12:12.560 radical Protestants and they you know they were a tiny minority and then 50 years later they were

00:12:17.260 the majority and then you know the Catholics all of a sudden was you know the wrong side of history 1.00

00:12:21.340 it's interesting you mentioned the reformation because the reformation of course I mean arguably

00:12:25.180 was caused by technological progress, right?

00:12:27.360 The printing press essentially allowed people

00:12:29.440 to disseminate it.

00:12:30.120 Yeah, it would be impossible without it, yeah.

00:12:30.880 And it's kind of similar to where we are now.

00:12:32.940 Yeah, I mean, apparently I was there, exactly.

00:12:34.340 I mean, not that the internet starts it,

00:12:36.500 and then social media kind of accelerates it.

00:12:39.520 I mean, the Great Awakening,

00:12:40.680 there have been, like, such a rapid change

00:12:42.820 in public opinion amongst Democrats in America,

00:12:46.760 particularly upper middle class,

00:12:48.200 in just eight years,

00:12:48.900 which is just so unprecedented,

00:12:50.620 that amount of shift.

00:12:52.060 And that is entirely social media-led, I think.

00:12:54.400 It can spread ideas so quickly.

00:12:59.620 To the point where I think Barack Obama running in 2012

00:13:04.280 or talking in 2014 can talk about the southern border

00:13:07.840 in exactly the same way that Donald Trump talked about it.

00:13:11.340 But in a period of six or eight years,

00:13:13.920 we've gone from that position being the standard position

00:13:16.880 shared across both parties to where now anyone who says

00:13:20.720 what Barack Obama said only a few years ago

00:13:23.200 is now you're just racist now you can i mean you can trump's tone is obviously

00:13:27.700 what his actual policies and you track them what about about and you know what what clinton was 0.75

00:13:34.000 saying about and clinton's you know immigration advisor you know who's a black woman in the mid

00:13:38.340 90s what was saying about diversity immigration would just put you so beyond the pale and that

00:13:42.740 was just completely normal um and you know people i say of course society's changed but

00:13:47.080 to change so quickly in such rapid space

00:13:50.060 is, I think, like, generally disturbing.

00:13:53.160 I mean, at what point, you know,

00:13:56.000 I know people disagree about, oh, the younger people

00:13:58.400 are going to rebel about it.

00:13:59.660 I mean, I've always been a bit pessimistic about that,

00:14:01.480 although recently I've kind of slightly changed my mind.

00:14:04.340 I think maybe there will be a little bit.

00:14:06.400 But I don't know.

00:14:07.420 I mean, when people will say, oh, you know,

00:14:09.280 like the transgender movement, 0.94

00:14:10.880 another issue where people are, you know,

00:14:12.560 genuinely scared.

00:14:13.460 It comes more and more extreme positions

00:14:16.880 to become normalised.

00:14:17.920 And I always think, at what point, you know,

00:14:20.120 when's the sort of, you know, the retreat,

00:14:21.660 when's the fight back going to come?

00:14:23.400 And it just never does.

00:14:24.580 It just gets more and more bizarre

00:14:25.880 until something that was completely normal four years ago

00:14:28.960 now is considered like, you know, hate speech, literally.

00:14:31.720 Ed, what would you say to those people who go,

00:14:33.600 look, mate, hang on a second here.

00:14:35.080 We've got a Conservative government in charge.

00:14:37.380 The reality is, with the way Labour is,

00:14:39.840 we're never going to get a leftist government,

00:14:41.660 certainly for the next few years, you know,

00:14:43.900 let's say 10 years.

00:14:45.240 No, no, I agree with that, yeah.

00:14:46.140 Yeah. So, you know, what are you complaining about?

00:14:49.900 I mean, the Conservative Party is very good at, you know, at maintaining power by basically accepting the amount of change.

00:14:56.860 That's fine. And, you know, being a more moderate version.

00:14:59.400 But, you know, I would argue Conservatives have limited political power in this country.

00:15:03.420 I mean, it's limited by the fact that you have to get elected and, you know, the majority.

00:15:07.160 But the left has like absolute cultural power.

00:15:10.540 You know, like almost there is almost zero opposition to leftist cultural power.

00:15:14.900 So I don't use the deep state, but all the institutions that are in the country are basically leftists.

00:15:21.220 And there's very little, it seems very like little conservative appetite.

00:15:25.000 To actually fight that would be a really, really like costly effort.

00:15:30.140 When you say fight, so when you talk about the institutions, the BBC, I'm guessing?

00:15:34.400 I mean, not just the BBC, but I mean, like charities, for example.

00:15:39.160 You know, if you meet people working in the home office, you know, people will say, oh, I don't believe in prison.

00:15:44.900 it's a sort of you know it's barbaric in a hundred years time we'll have no prisons like

00:15:48.020 you your job is to people put people in prison like how can you or the ministry of justice sorry

00:15:52.260 um you know the people within that are not conservatives and i mean even even this thing

00:15:58.880 with stonewall like stonewall you know the government says oh we're gonna have some fight 0.99

00:16:01.640 back we're gonna stop stonewall cooperate with stonewall um over the trans things like what

00:16:06.340 on earth was stonewall doing in schools in the first place you've been in power for 10 years 0.70

00:16:10.500 that is a very you know progressive organization that is not something you should be supporting

00:16:14.520 and the only really fight back on you know the trans issue was was via basically feminists who 1.00

00:16:19.560 are the people who sort of got the balls so to speak to stand up to more extreme elements so

00:16:23.800 you can't even you know conservatives can't even fight that issue they have to sort of get

00:16:26.980 leftist allies to do the fighting for them so there's you know very this is why i mean this is

00:16:32.080 one of the reasons why i'm not you know so mad about brexit is that i think they've just put all

00:16:36.120 their kind of all their effort was going into brexit basically like we've got to win this one

00:16:41.120 argument and you know what little energy we've got it's going to go in this and you know we're

00:16:44.980 not going to bother with any other sort of basic fight we have to have ed i think we've come and i

00:16:51.760 to the point and i'm sure that you would agree with this where the labels we traditionally use

00:16:56.760 left right conservative liberal they've kind of lost their meaning right because 20 years ago you

00:17:03.440 could argue that everybody sitting in this room is a liberal not here man no i think yeah i think

00:17:11.000 They used to crush the red pill into his breast milk. 0.88

00:17:15.200 But let's be fair, look, I imagine pro-gay marriage,

00:17:20.860 all of these things which you would ascribe to being liberal, right?

00:17:24.120 Yeah.

00:17:24.760 Okay.

00:17:25.620 Now, we fast forward whatever it is 20 years,

00:17:28.720 I don't think anybody in this room would be described as liberal.

00:17:31.900 I'm liberal.

00:17:32.940 Well, I mean, but you see...

00:17:34.720 No, you're using your American language.

00:17:36.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:37.420 We've lost that battle.

00:17:38.560 I mean, I would agree.

00:17:39.320 I'm liberal.

00:17:39.740 I believe in freedom.

00:17:40.620 I believe in maximizing people's freedom.

00:17:43.040 When did that stop being liberal?

00:17:44.980 It just did.

00:17:45.940 I mean, I would definitely say what Americans know as liberal

00:17:49.240 is in no way liberalism.

00:17:51.800 Right.

00:17:52.520 It's a real shame that both opponents insist on calling them liberals still.

00:17:58.060 They should just refuse to do it as a principle.

00:18:00.040 The ideology, which I suppose began, really had its roots in the 60s.

00:18:05.040 I call it progressivism because I don't know.

00:18:06.700 I think it's fair to...

00:18:08.560 They would be fair with that.

00:18:09.860 It's not an insulting term.

00:18:12.280 It believes in certain core issues, but, you know, it doesn't, it's not,

00:18:15.760 it's not pro-free speech necessarily, like progressive stentipianity.

00:18:19.040 It's not pro-freedom of association, which is by definition racist and sexist.

00:18:25.580 You know, it doesn't believe in those kind of core, like, beliefs

00:18:30.780 that John Locke came up with.

00:18:31.860 It's in no way liberal.

00:18:33.580 Conservatism is still, I mean, I don't left and right.

00:18:35.720 i mean i think there is still a sort of basic psychological mindset that differs between left

00:18:41.340 and right there is still a that was always track i guess what what you're getting at though is

00:18:46.640 peter hitchens for example would say the conservatives are no longer conservative

00:18:49.700 either right yeah he's been saying yeah i mean he's been saying that for quite a long time

00:18:54.080 i mean i love hitches he's great yeah and the second part so these labels don't really mean 0.62

00:19:00.520 what they used to mean what's my point right i think that's partly because progressives are

00:19:04.920 in power and so once you're in power you're like your your mindset changes i mean my problem is

00:19:10.140 like progressives basically you know they came out of there was a generational thing they were

00:19:13.920 the youngsters of the 60s are fighting against their parents um and it was an ideology that sort

00:19:18.940 of came out of rebellion and it's always defined itself by you know by being like you know against

00:19:23.740 the man and then once you you are the man like what do you do then i mean like how do you then

00:19:29.040 frame it you know you just end up sort of fighting these complete like straw man battles against

00:19:34.020 like an establishment which is just completely gone you know all this thing about oh you know

00:19:38.440 why why aren't we just being taught like about the you know the british and this is all the

00:19:42.660 stuff you're not taught at school about the british and it's like when was the last time

00:19:45.880 like tissue teachers were like really right wing it's like when i was down in the 80s they you know

00:19:49.980 they weren't like members of the empire loyalists at the time but like teachers have been lefty for

00:19:54.660 like 50 or 60 years like who you are going against you're arguing against something that stopped

00:19:58.480 being true you know they're making out like kids like learning our island story at school but all

00:20:03.000 they're fighting against is like a society that never really exists anymore um it's interesting

00:20:08.280 that you say because i think that's so true in comedy that a lot of comedians certainly not in

00:20:13.100 our experience or in my experience felt like they were pushing against the system right when it was

00:20:19.520 quite clearly observable by the decisions that were being made who was being booked to do tv

00:20:25.100 etc that that way of thinking is embedded as the system exactly i mean like you're not it's not

00:20:31.240 so you're not fighting back against the man you're not fighting back against anything you are part of

00:20:37.420 the system that's propagating itself i mean that does make you know good comedy so like you know

00:20:42.800 dave allen when he made jokes about the catholic church i mean that's the classic example i use

00:20:45.900 people were really scared of the church and in ireland particularly you know like they can make

00:20:49.600 your life a misery um so when he was sort of making these kind of jokes it'd be real that'd

00:20:53.940 be really funny because people will be thinking that you know i've been thinking everything that

00:20:57.580 my whole life and i can't say it um but yeah i mean if you're making sort of jokes about a sort

00:21:02.180 of conservative system now there's just you know where is it like everyone says that i mean what's

00:21:06.780 the yeah usually you know there's the pride flag flying from all our government buildings like

00:21:11.200 where's where's the humor there so the second part of my question right yeah no it's good you

00:21:17.400 apologize but not i love watching english people yeah sorry um what does it mean what is

00:21:27.320 conservatism now what does it mean to be a conservative well that's a good question i

00:21:32.640 mean i didn't actually finish answering the first one so the conservative party has always been

00:21:36.120 an alliance between conservatives and liberals i mean that has been for well not always it's been

00:21:39.980 for about since the labor party arose so you know you have different factions within it which you

00:21:45.260 You know, Liz Truss is a liberal. 1.00

00:21:47.080 And that's fine because it's basically,

00:21:48.560 the Conservative Party was like an anti-socialist alliance.

00:21:52.140 So its main job was to stop basically like Labour ruining equality.

00:21:57.760 You know, so, but at the time, Labour,

00:22:00.960 you know, between Labour and Conservative,

00:22:02.700 there wouldn't have been like, until the 60s,

00:22:04.620 there was no kind of cultural differences.

00:22:06.400 They all would have been, you know,

00:22:07.860 it all would have been by today's standards

00:22:09.260 completely beyond the pale.

00:22:11.560 And it only changed in the 60s

00:22:12.940 and Labour started becoming more liberal.

00:22:14.640 So, yeah, you're right.

00:22:16.540 I mean, there are some, like, Conservative MPs

00:22:19.780 who are, like, you know, full-on Conservative.

00:22:21.840 I mean, what does it mean?

00:22:23.400 The Jacob Rees-Moggs of the world. 0.64

00:22:25.660 Jacob, yeah, he is a...

00:22:27.640 I suppose he is a proper Conservative, isn't he?

00:22:31.020 I mean, I would say...

00:22:32.000 He looks like one, anyway. 0.96

00:22:32.800 I mean, yeah, he looks like...

00:22:33.820 I mean, I never know if he's...

00:22:35.180 Is he LARPing or not?

00:22:36.020 Is this all, like, a bit of a persona?

00:22:37.380 I don't know.

00:22:37.920 I don't know him, so...

00:22:40.020 But the point you're making is a fair one.

00:22:43.020 he's a parody of a conservative i think that's the only way you can actually get away that now

00:22:47.640 is by becoming a bit like a bit of a joke or like you can't do it earnestly because then you're just

00:22:52.940 a monster yeah exactly then you just be treated like you're so beyond the power i mean the problem

00:22:57.400 well i suppose you know the conservative classic argument say oh i'm just there to put the brakes

00:23:01.100 on or you know driving the speed limit or um sort of stop things accelerating the problem is like

00:23:07.400 when things accelerate so much if your job is just to slow things down it's like what are we heading

00:23:12.040 towards like i mean take with the trans issue or like with diversity like at one point you just

00:23:18.040 say like no enough there's no one i mean it seems very hard for someone to articulate that

00:23:24.520 without kind of being monsters and i think there isn't really there isn't much kind of like no

00:23:31.060 one's really volunteering to be that kind of the bad guy it's it's um i mean a basic point

00:23:36.220 Since back in the 1990s, conservative opinions have been publicly quite taboo.

00:23:42.020 Like saying, you know, probably conservative stuff.

00:23:44.740 What are we talking about?

00:23:46.420 Well, I think if you look back at, say, the immigration thing in the late 90s,

00:23:50.480 you know, Blair massively increased immigration.

00:23:53.060 And I did a report ages ago on the BBC did this.

00:23:58.660 And in some cases, they'll have like five or six people lying up saying,

00:24:01.620 this is great, amazing.

00:24:02.500 And then you have one, you know, bad Tory.

00:24:05.780 Basically, his job was the guy in wrestling dressed up like Iranian. 0.89

00:24:09.580 He must have bad music.

00:24:11.740 And it was all presented as like,

00:24:13.180 how can you possibly object to a multicultural society? 0.99

00:24:16.780 You're basically a monster. 0.98

00:24:18.020 You're Enoch Powell. 1.00

00:24:19.260 You're beyond the pale.

00:24:21.320 And the conservative view was supported by the majority of people.

00:24:26.580 Still is, arguably.

00:24:28.080 Yeah, although that's kind of losing because just reality.

00:24:30.420 The thing with diversity is once you have diversity,

00:24:33.460 it's, you know, taboos, it's irreversible, because it will be so monstrous to reverse it.

00:24:40.480 So, it's enough. And then, like, where does it stop? I mean, with all these processes with

00:24:45.160 progressism, there's no end point. That's the thing. You know, you can't just sign surrender

00:24:49.660 papers and say, okay, it's over now. Can we just move on to the next, you know, can we just get on

00:24:53.220 with our lives? Okay. There has to be. Another thing with gay marriage. Gay marriage is a good 1.00

00:24:59.840 thing it's you know it's definitely defensible on conservative grounds i wonder would you have 0.98

00:25:04.560 to gay marriage and and just end it there will it gay marriage inevitably leads like the trans 1.00

00:25:09.420 stuff becoming really like extreme i don't know i mean is it possible to end any of these changes

00:25:15.300 at one point and just say that's good and i don't want any more i'm not sure it is really do you buy

00:25:20.100 into the argument that a lot of these institutions like stonewall did great work in the 1960s

00:25:25.600 well let's be let's be honest gay people faced real oppression i mean stonewalls from later 1.00

00:25:30.580 they were named after um 60s 70s 70s and all the rest of it but they had their roots in the 60s

00:25:36.320 etc yeah well they're named after the stonewall riots yeah i mean there's there's no doubt about

00:25:39.540 it um you know every revolution like has good points right i mean the french revolution uh

00:25:47.820 was you know very necessary the system had to change you know i would argue that like

00:25:52.700 beheading thousands of people might have been a bit of an excess um that's a very english way of 0.79

00:25:57.820 putting it i mean yeah so uh uh a soviet functionary whose job it was to kill off all the people in

00:26:05.100 the purges said when you chop wood uh little bits will fly i mean i'm reading a book about the

00:26:12.700 russian revolution i mean i'd say there's probably not much that came out of that but you know the

00:26:15.980 system was rotten to start with yeah there was loads that need you know changing in society in

00:26:20.540 the 60s um you know i wouldn't argue about that i just think revolutions sort of revolutions have

00:26:25.880 in themselves a sort of uh no real end point so it's you know it's inevitably just going to go

00:26:33.400 more and more sort of crazy what about the idea that i think a lot of people are hopeful and look

00:26:38.620 as you say you you were a conservative from from birth uh i i i'm not conservative i think

00:26:45.100 temperamentally i don't know about francis i think you're becoming conservative aren't you

00:26:48.260 mate i'm gonna be on it yeah i think i am yeah there we go he's still pretending well i mean

00:26:52.640 i say as you get older you just can't help it no but the thing is the thing is that the what's

00:26:57.220 happened is francis was always on the old school left it's just the old school left is now yeah so

00:27:02.060 that's yeah right now it's definitely true there's uh but but a lot of people like me who who are

00:27:08.360 simultaneously not conservative but also deeply deeply against this progressive ideology the hope

00:27:16.060 i have is as you you alluded to earlier that young people rebel against the the their parents

00:27:23.460 generation essentially and now the children that are being born now are from basically this point

00:27:28.580 forward going to be born to millennials and younger people right so the if there are any

00:27:34.860 children i mean which is another issue with a touche but but those that are those that are 0.93

00:27:40.920 being born they are going to be they're going to be looking at their parents being useless and

00:27:45.860 talking about adulting and looking at that going actually you know we need to go full trad don't

00:27:50.820 you think that's kind of i think i think maybe i mean if you if you've got a liberal mindset you

00:27:54.760 don't like sanctimonious people telling you off saying you can't do that and then inevitably

00:28:00.000 those people now that's my issue with this whole ideology i mean as as a kid i you know i when i

00:28:06.620 went to church i really didn't like the sort of the sanctimonious old people who sort of say look 1.00

00:28:11.260 i'm better than you blah blah look i'm with this you know point is there's a very like a miserable 0.95

00:28:14.740 irish catholic church and just so the whole point is to look it's more miserable and i'm better than 0.99

00:28:18.700 you because i'm more miserable you're smiling like you can't do that um and those and that's

00:28:23.700 what i sort of i saw a lot of that amongst lefties that kind of you know i'm i'm taking this more

00:28:31.100 seriously the environment's more important to me i take racism more seriously all that kind of thing

00:28:34.940 so I kind of get that

00:28:37.100 and so if you aren't of that mindset

00:28:38.860 then

00:28:41.180 yeah you probably will be a bit more

00:28:43.440 a bit more opposed to it

00:28:44.940 I mean I think with the

00:28:46.000 like the trans thing is really interesting because the trans thing

00:28:48.900 I mean the argument that like a lot of feminists 1.00

00:28:51.260 say which I think is true is that it's like a very

00:28:53.220 I mean it's not a radical interpretation of sex

00:28:55.340 but it's also really conservative you know

00:28:56.860 if you're a girly boy then you must be really a girl 0.96

00:28:59.020 or if you're a very masculine

00:29:01.280 or gender atypical girl

00:29:03.260 you must be a really big boy

00:29:04.200 you know and you know people in the 60s would say no you're just gender atypical you know you're 0.81

00:29:08.640 probably lesbian or gay and that's fine you can just do the other one now you sort of have to 0.92

00:29:12.180 have these kind of strict things and also this kind of obsession with categorization and identity

00:29:17.420 which is like a very conservative thing you know like the conservative mindset needs categories

00:29:21.380 because that's how they sort of see the world that's how they order it um so that is a very

00:29:26.880 sort of conservative thing so if you don't like categorization if you don't like the sort of

00:29:30.420 forced kind of almost like semi-religious like order of pride which is very like you you must 0.67

00:29:36.520 do this because this is what the community does then yeah you might turn against it i mean i think

00:29:40.700 i don't think young people will be conservative i think they'll probably be anti-woke which is 0.82

00:29:44.200 like what you are like a liberal anti-woke person which there are a lot of people you know lots of

00:29:48.660 people honestly will honestly say you know like i'm liberal but there's only one group of people

00:29:53.460 who are basically threatening my ability to talk normally.

00:29:59.960 This is what a lot of academics say secretly about liberal academics

00:30:05.240 who say the only people who are bothering me

00:30:06.900 who make life difficult are the kind of progressive ideologues

00:30:12.680 who run the place.

00:30:14.280 But no conservative is saying you can't study that

00:30:16.300 or you have to do this or something.

00:30:17.940 If they were in power, they probably would, but they're not.

00:30:21.540 So that's what I'm asking you.

00:30:22.760 Do you think there will be a flip where that changes?

00:30:24.800 Because I always laugh when people accuse me of being on the right

00:30:27.940 because I'm like, I have almost no doubt that 15 years from now,

00:30:32.540 I will be fighting against the right-wing, socially conservative, religious right

00:30:41.200 as comedians like Bill Hicks and George Carlin were in the 90s.

00:30:45.760 I have no doubt that there will be a point in my life

00:30:48.380 where those are the people that I'm opposing.

00:30:49.580 That sounds very optimistic to me.

00:30:50.880 Yeah.

00:30:51.400 That'd be great.

00:30:51.820 I think that is optimistic, but you think that's not going to happen?

00:30:55.360 I think, I mean, I think there might be a religious right in Britain

00:30:59.340 that is powerful, but I don't think it will be a Christian one. 0.58

00:31:03.280 I think that's completely...

00:31:04.820 Can I say that?

00:31:06.460 Yes, come on, let's explore that.

00:31:09.360 No, I don't think there's going to be...

00:31:11.180 I think once a religion goes into decline,

00:31:13.180 I think there's almost nothing that can be done to stop it, to be honest.

00:31:17.060 And I don't think there's going to be a religious movement.

00:31:18.600 And I think without religion, you don't really get social conservatism

00:31:22.080 because the kind of default mindset then becomes utilitarianism.

00:31:27.260 I mean, if you're not religious, then utilitarianism just makes so much sense

00:31:30.060 that it's impossible to argue against, really.

00:31:33.860 Why is that?

00:31:35.740 I just think it's...

00:31:37.880 I wouldn't say it's necessarily the best argument,

00:31:40.000 but if you're trying to order a society, how else are you going to do it?

00:31:43.280 I mean, if you're saying, you know, the gay marriage thing,

00:31:45.320 if you're a kind of traditionalist Catholic or Anglican,

00:31:47.980 and say, well, marriage is a sacrament.

00:31:49.500 It says it has to be between a man and a woman. 0.92

00:31:51.000 If you're utilitarian and say, well, marriage is about, you know,

00:31:55.820 people loving each other and want to make a partnership,

00:31:57.620 there's no utilitarian argument against it.

00:32:00.840 It doesn't harm you.

00:32:02.440 So, you know, there are so many different examples of,

00:32:07.540 I'm trying to think, the move towards utilitarianism

00:32:10.360 is basically just inevitable if you're not religious.

00:32:12.440 So I just don't think you can have a sort of socially conservative movement

00:32:15.000 without religion. 0.88

00:32:15.540 yeah i agree with you and then fact i don't know you are not going to be facing some sort of

00:32:21.540 like you know council of vatican index censors in 15 years i reckon it would just be like the

00:32:26.240 same woke people but even worse well there you go guys that's that's reassuring there and even

00:32:31.340 crazy a lot you you but i mean we've always seen this throughout history the ebbs and flows and

00:32:37.000 it's never linear in that way yeah you just think do you do you think there's never going to be a

00:32:43.860 push back against this it's just it's going to be the new dogma forever and we're just going to

00:32:48.840 get more and more progressive i don't know i i think it's impossible to predict the future

00:32:53.660 i mean people tend to predict what they want to believe i would love to think that you know the

00:32:57.800 next generation i mean the only thing i you know i do lose this book is that there is huge birth

00:33:02.780 gap between conservatives and liberals and it's really opened up and never used to be

00:33:05.680 so you know liberal societies produce more conservative people i mean in the 50s i think

00:33:10.860 in America you know the average liberal it was like three or four kids each and now it's like

00:33:15.580 2.2 kids versus one and the difference is you know if you're a liberal person in 60s you'll

00:33:20.440 probably still be basically pressured into getting married by social forces or now there's more

00:33:27.460 freedom everyone can basically choose their own little niche uh I think now it'll take a long

00:33:32.020 time to have an impact um you know we're talking about generations and it's hard to say I mean

00:33:37.500 there are so many different factors out there aren't there i mean like what is the chinese

00:33:40.220 influence on western society going to be i mean is that i mean i'm pretty pessimistic to be honest

00:33:45.140 i just think it'll be like unbelievably horrible but um that will definitely affect how you know

00:33:50.100 the left and right see each other that conflict that is a very good point because that is a

00:33:57.120 conflict that we're not talking about and that we seem to have buried our heads in the sand about

00:34:01.120 because when you think about a lot of our huge you know multinational companies they're in hock

00:34:06.340 to China yeah they all are yeah uh you know money talks isn't it I mean the thing the Soviet Union

00:34:12.980 was undeniably like a force for evil but it was also economically inept so it was never gonna

00:34:19.820 really I mean once once in the 70s you know Hungary and all these other countries were so

00:34:25.080 in hock to the west for money so once you're you know once you owe people money they basically

00:34:28.920 control you you know but China I mean and you go back to the other sort of tyrannies we faced 0.97

00:34:33.620 um you know nazism was utterly evil but and you know but it was inevitably going to lead to war

00:34:38.420 very quickly and we had to destroy it chinese communism chinese whatever it is i mean they 1.00

00:34:43.900 that is in a way more dangerous because they are we basically owe them you know huge amounts of

00:34:49.040 money and you know what's going to be what's going to be you know done in exchange for that

00:34:54.820 so yeah that's that's another thing to be pessimistic about isn't it i've got a few more

00:34:59.060 a few more black pills

00:35:01.760 he started off as a kid with the red pills

00:35:04.180 now he's dropping all the black pills

00:35:05.560 do you think Trump was right

00:35:07.960 when he highlighted

00:35:10.300 the threat of China 0.94

00:35:11.180 I mean that's kind of

00:35:14.100 universally accepted amongst Americans

00:35:16.020 it's the only thing they agree on Democrats and Republicans

00:35:18.240 I mean I think in retrospect

00:35:20.420 I mean it's great that

00:35:22.100 there is a Steven Pinker side to me

00:35:24.320 it's great that poverty has declined

00:35:26.140 every day

00:35:27.960 Like a million people will come out of poverty.

00:35:30.220 But a huge amount of that was to do with China's entry

00:35:32.540 into the World Trade Organization 2001,

00:35:36.620 which is probably like, you know,

00:35:38.800 it wasn't as big as 9-11, obviously, as an issue,

00:35:41.080 but it did basically ship 2 million, you know,

00:35:44.000 American manufacturing jobs.

00:35:45.880 You know, it triggered the great awakening.

00:35:49.180 The shift in American society was basically down to this change.

00:35:52.780 And at the same time, completely empowered China.

00:35:54.760 You know, Chimerica is definitely a thing. 0.96

00:35:57.960 And, you know, they're not fools, the people who run the Chinese Communist Party. 0.96

00:36:01.340 No. 0.97

00:36:01.640 They will want something back from it.

00:36:03.980 And, you know, slowly and surely, as British institutions are bought up by the Chinese, 1.00

00:36:08.180 and, you know, British public schools, British universities, British corporations,

00:36:12.320 eventually the thing is, you know, that guy who's criticising China on social media,

00:36:15.440 it's like, get rid of him.

00:36:16.560 That will become a normal thing.

00:36:17.880 And I think the kind of progressive taboos have almost made us more open to cowardice as well.

00:36:24.180 This is what I'm slightly worried about.

00:36:25.280 like if that becomes the norm so you know well you know i can't say something about like you know

00:36:31.980 george floyd or the transism movement you know maybe i should just be cute quiet about

00:36:36.420 the chinese communist party you know because that's at least they've got loads of money so

00:36:40.840 um you know already there are lots of media people will be brought up for them i mean that's where

00:36:45.760 the money is isn't it so i mean we've definitely got an oversupply of journalists who need money

00:36:49.880 so that'll be like very easy to get speaking of journalism i mean that's an era obviously you're

00:36:55.780 involved with directly yourself but uh i've been watching and commenting on the decline of the

00:37:02.580 media right for quite some time we just had glenn greenwald on to talk about it right what what do

00:37:08.080 you think has happened to the media because there's quite a lot of evidence that the great

00:37:13.320 awakening is actually something that was led largely by elite discourse new york times right

00:37:19.480 the most evil newspaper in the world but I mean without doubt and I you know I don't even say

00:37:22.940 ironically um yeah I mean their use of you know core kind of moralizing words is just massively

00:37:30.180 increased you can you know those charts have been done by various academics um yeah I mean that is

00:37:36.220 it is a creation of a few journalists I mean the main thing is the obviously the internet has emptied

00:37:41.060 it so it's just much cheaper to run these kind of you know cultural sort of articles than like

00:37:49.180 a proper investigation or a news story that it's really expensive journalism there's just not the

00:37:53.220 money for it so it's much easier to make these kind of commentary things our chairs racists

00:37:56.920 yeah yeah exactly yeah i mean but it it's got so much worse i mean you know time what was it

00:38:02.000 there's an article the other day saying racial slur at baseball game or something and it was

00:38:06.440 like page and then you got to that paragraph 36 said oh yeah and it probably wasn't the n-word

00:38:10.920 it's something else what the point was this entire article about someone says rude words

00:38:16.440 hold the front page um yeah they've definitely got worse and there is you know there's definitely

00:38:22.460 there is statistics on american journalists their political slant has um you know hugely

00:38:27.740 changed i mean they've always been more left center because writers tend to be more left

00:38:32.420 center but by by about by the time that barrett obama uh got elected it was like overwhelmingly

00:38:39.120 left center and you know and public you know public opinion is often not accurate but they

00:38:45.600 of a rough idea what's going on so trust in the media is hugely increasing i think there's

00:38:49.100 decreased decrease sorry the other one um i think it was like you know it was like nine out ten

00:38:53.960 americans thought you know the the media was basically trying to get barrett obama elected

00:38:57.820 of course they were they were openly biased about the whole thing then the thing about trump is

00:39:01.700 because trump is like such like a comically bad guy you know like a really funny and evil person

00:39:07.100 who says terrible things he has this he had this amazing ability to just basically draw out their 0.99

00:39:11.720 extremism he would say something stupid their reaction was just like you just revealed how 0.99

00:39:16.220 mad you are as well like you're you know the thought leaders of the greatest country in the 1.00

00:39:20.800 world and you're utterly off your rocket all of you you know so some of them many of these people

00:39:25.180 are just so much more extreme than the rest of the population like how did you end up in positions

00:39:29.780 of power it's amazing but ironically they need trump because the moment he left power all their

00:39:34.640 ratings and their you know went through the floor i know that they had a sort of dynamic didn't they

00:39:40.840 together the media and Trump. I mean, I think that's sort of turning against Biden now, aren't

00:39:44.880 they? Someone, yeah, someone, I think someone tweeted out, they actually like did the transcript

00:39:49.020 of what he was saying. I mean, he's clearly not mentally at his best. And it was just, um, um,

00:39:54.940 and he just, he's obviously, yeah. So, you know, they would never do that before, especially in

00:39:59.180 the run-up to the election where they sort of made it clear that, you know, their job was to

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00:41:02.820 what happened to the idea of the media holding the powerful to account wasn't that the purpose

00:41:08.940 of the media um i don't know i think yeah yeah obviously i mean i mean yeah it isn't in some

00:41:16.340 ways but i think when you know america is so polarized isn't it that it's people once

00:41:22.520 polarization hits a certain point people don't really think about that all matters is like

00:41:25.980 winning all that matters is you know stopping the other side from scoring a point because

00:41:30.460 it becomes so existential isn't it stop i mean i kind of understand like trump was like

00:41:35.340 it was kind of unnerving you know seeing this is like man in charge of america and you tweet

00:41:40.320 completely reckless stuff so i can see why you know it was such an exact you know important

00:41:45.380 point to get rid of him um but yeah i think that once that happens you know there aren't that many

00:41:50.860 people who would you know take a massive hit for their team if it was if it was in the interest of

00:41:55.400 democracy are they i don't think we're we're as bad i mean i didn't i think we could get slightly

00:42:01.660 as bad we could get worse but i don't think we'll ever be i don't think we can be as bad as america

00:42:06.240 just as the dynamic of such a huge country that's so sort of diverse and not just culturally but

00:42:11.180 like socially as well what would you say to those people go look actually right the old institutions

00:42:16.600 are crumbling but this is a good thing this is important this is necessary they're no longer fit

00:42:22.000 for purpose. Look at Unheard.

00:42:23.880 Unheard has developed a huge

00:42:25.940 fan base. Quillette, we've got

00:42:27.820 Substack now, where people can go

00:42:29.900 and access the journalists

00:42:31.920 that they like and trust and pay

00:42:33.840 for them and subsidise

00:42:36.100 them. Isn't that a positive?

00:42:40.500 There isn't. I mean, Substack

00:42:41.820 is a great idea in the sense that

00:42:43.760 journalists can make more

00:42:45.880 money, which is that a good journalist can make more money.

00:42:48.060 And I think the market

00:42:49.000 does reveal

00:42:51.360 sort of essential truth about a lot of stuff

00:42:53.640 that, you know, if no one's going to pay for your writing

00:42:55.380 then you're probably not a good writer

00:42:56.580 I think it is important to have

00:42:58.980 stuff like investigative reporting

00:43:01.360 a lot of the really bad

00:43:03.120 scandals are still done by

00:43:05.100 that kind of old fashioned BBC

00:43:06.600 The Guardian

00:43:07.420 I had a very love-hate relationship with The Guardian

00:43:10.760 because I think it's so annoying

00:43:12.980 in some ways, but it's just

00:43:14.340 it is such a great British institution

00:43:16.640 it's done amazing work down the years

00:43:18.920 I just think

00:43:20.940 is wrong about everything um so if the guard i mean the guardian's always in financial trouble

00:43:25.840 if the guardian closed i'd find i think that's a really sad thing um but yeah i mean i mean this

00:43:34.260 the same the same thing with the bbc i mean i think the bbc can't basically it can't never stop

00:43:39.820 its biases but at least it kind of understands them and it does believe in a sort of an idea

00:43:44.380 that it should be impartial i mean compared to cnn which is just junk which is so which is so bad 0.82

00:43:49.160 it's like caricature 0.79

00:43:50.120 I'm kind of glad

00:43:52.220 that we do have

00:43:52.760 a sort of

00:43:53.360 state institution

00:43:54.160 that at least

00:43:54.580 tries to

00:43:55.440 tries to be fair

00:43:57.660 at least

00:43:58.000 you know

00:43:58.240 has some sort of idea

00:43:59.180 I mean I don't think

00:44:00.400 that will last

00:44:01.160 because

00:44:01.360 if you look at the BBC website

00:44:03.360 which is written by the kids

00:44:04.560 it's just like 1.00

00:44:05.180 this is crap 0.99

00:44:05.720 I mean this is 0.99

00:44:06.380 this is what it's going to be like

00:44:07.440 for everywhere in the BBC

00:44:08.340 in 20 years time

00:44:09.060 because again

00:44:09.920 it's a generational shift

00:44:11.000 which makes me worry

00:44:11.720 it's so interesting you say that

00:44:12.360 because that was one of the things

00:44:13.440 that I

00:44:13.820 you know having done

00:44:14.680 quite a bit of TV now

00:44:15.940 it's one of the things

00:44:16.640 that I never knew

00:44:17.380 before I started

00:44:18.200 being on these programs and whatever television is basically made by 20 year olds yeah i never

00:44:24.780 realized that almost all of the people you encounter up up to the level of like executive

00:44:31.280 producer they're all in their early 20s yeah so i just think it's kind of inevitable that therefore

00:44:38.580 that if all the researchers and all the people that are making most of the decisions because

00:44:42.960 they are making most of the decisions they're the gatekeepers and that's the real power

00:44:46.840 uh a lot of that done um which is tangentially stuff like you know uh i'll get on this minute

00:44:52.940 well i mean on the look at sky sky was you know quite it wasn't right wing but it was kind of

00:44:58.740 like an itv you know it felt like sort of middle england and now sky is very very more great it's

00:45:03.560 much more like cnn and that's a generational thing people tell me that you know the young

00:45:06.900 ones come and say oh you know in the morning meetings oh we must cover this sort of classic

00:45:11.120 progressive issue and then you raise sort of a more you know delicate right wing issue um maybe

00:45:16.620 something was going on in Rotherham or something and they say no no no I don't think that's

00:45:19.520 appropriate for and you know those decisions made by the gatekeepers um you know that's yeah the

00:45:26.000 generational thing is what worries me you know that Harper's letter on that it was about the

00:45:30.980 trans thing wasn't it I think everything's about the trans thing these days and all these you know

00:45:34.400 I really admire these old style centrist liberals they believe and you know they believe in freedom

00:45:39.300 of speech they believe in this kind of I think slightly naive idea that if you all talk about

00:45:42.980 stuff you'll come to a reasonable you know idea and they believe also that their opponents aren't

00:45:47.840 evil which is like the central liberal idea but you know look at their average age it's all like

00:45:52.400 people steven pink and jk rowling all these people you know everything great the average age is like

00:45:56.420 65 while the average age of people you know denouncing them who wanted them all on the

00:46:01.960 chopping block they were like 28 it's like this is awful but this is our future is going to be like

00:46:06.500 He's an optimist, mate

00:46:09.180 Yeah, he is

00:46:10.480 Imagine being stuck with me for like a week

00:46:14.480 I do not envy your wife, mate

00:46:17.540 So let's get a little bit conspiratorial about this

00:46:22.380 Do you think that there is

00:46:23.760 Look at this, yes, Wuhan

00:46:25.080 Let's get the joints out for the lads

00:46:27.100 Yeah, absolutely

00:46:28.140 Do you not think there is an element of divide and conquer

00:46:30.720 About the trans issue

00:46:32.020 About all of this stuff that we talk about

00:46:33.900 because we're so focused on these particular issues

00:46:37.400 that we don't, for instance, see, you know,

00:46:39.440 Priti Patel bringing in, you know, bills, you know,

00:46:41.840 that are going to limit the rights of journalists,

00:46:44.080 limits of people's ability to protest.

00:46:46.420 So it's a classic diversionary distraction tactic, would you say?

00:46:49.900 No, I don't think people think that through, probably.

00:46:52.480 I mean, I don't think, I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

00:46:54.420 I don't think people are capable, functional.

00:46:57.060 Like, government can barely function.

00:46:58.400 Imagine the British government actually organising conspiracy. 0.99

00:47:00.340 They're completely screwed up.

00:47:01.380 i just think these things happen independently i mean yeah it definitely suits certain interests

00:47:07.240 that people aren't focused on things you know like freedom you know bills involved in limiting

00:47:13.040 people's freedoms protest or i mean the big one is you know 10 15 years ago it was all about you

00:47:18.940 know the occupy wasn't it about that's what i was going to say economic issues right yeah i mean i

00:47:23.960 think it definitely suits big corporations to oh look at gay rights trans rights look how nice 0.90

00:47:28.240 which is why they give money to BLM

00:47:30.140 the amount of money they give to BLM

00:47:32.820 without wanting to libel anyone

00:47:35.620 a lot of people involved in these movements

00:47:37.500 have done quite well

00:47:39.060 you might be a genuine believer

00:47:41.700 in that

00:47:42.880 but if I was able to get a million dollars

00:47:45.060 for my beliefs

00:47:46.460 I would definitely leave them more

00:47:48.060 I get it on my Twitter

00:47:52.980 I get all these sponsored things

00:47:54.180 from all these massive big banks

00:47:58.100 um telling me about you know we must talk about diversity today we really believe in diversity

00:48:04.680 this is great equality and these are like the richest like most sinister banks in the world

00:48:10.380 i mean he's like this is the man right they loaned the drug money i mean and then they talk about

00:48:15.360 diversity i mean that it's i started the thing on you know the hypocrisy of work capital and after

00:48:21.320 a while i just i got so many examples i just thought i thought maybe i'll write a book about

00:48:25.140 this but just after a while just there are so many it just seems that no one cares it's just

00:48:28.460 it's like so absurd it's like so it's just a humorous thing now you know it's like

00:48:32.080 sorry gay pride was sponsored by bae systems they're like literally selling 1.00

00:48:36.560 plays to saudi arabia

00:48:39.800 the kids in yemen get blown up and literally it's all uh all these and all these companies um

00:48:47.460 you know promoting and like if you pay whatever one percent your corporations to pay off some

00:48:52.840 person to say you're pro-diversity that's like nothing like a match compared to a government

00:48:57.180 saying oh we're gonna we're gonna massively punish you with taxes which is what like the orthodox

00:49:01.400 left would like um i mean my i've become as i get older i'm like more i suppose anti-business just

00:49:08.120 because but i think it must be just like the culture must be the driver because i think you 0.80

00:49:12.540 you people are horrible like you're so cynical and manipulative i'd much rather they were more like

00:49:18.020 we are more economically left-wing than social i mean i think that it's not old-fashioned that 0.99

00:49:22.420 poverty actually does matter it's like a real issue in the same way that people's sexual

00:49:27.000 identity is like much higher on the pyramid of needs right you need food first before you can

00:49:32.660 start thinking about your like higher spiritual needs um yeah i mean that definitely i don't

00:49:37.800 think it's seriously but it definitely it sort of incentivizes people to make that yeah um i mean i

00:49:43.920 worked very briefly in a strange career path like working for a financial company just writing stuff

00:49:50.800 I mean, it was weird.

00:49:52.020 I mean, unbelievably intelligent people.

00:49:54.500 Like, it makes you realise journalists are quite thick. 1.00

00:49:57.920 I was easily the stupidest person, like, by far. 0.99

00:50:00.420 And, you know, everyone there was, like, pro-Remain, for example. 0.99

00:50:04.500 That's definitely in their interests.

00:50:06.920 But, you know, they would be quite liberal people,

00:50:08.940 probably, like, more old-fashioned liberal.

00:50:10.400 They're not, like, radicals.

00:50:11.380 But they would accept.

00:50:12.780 Like, it's easy for them to accept, like, progressive rule.

00:50:17.120 They could live with it.

00:50:18.880 um it's not threatening their financial interests of course i mean liberalism does dry you know

00:50:25.000 economic and social liberalism do go together there is a reason why britain is one of the

00:50:28.780 most liberal countries in the world it's the city of london is the prime driver i mean thatcher

00:50:32.240 was the creator of the sort of you know the younger generation liberals um liberals because

00:50:39.200 i think inevitably it kind of becomes more and more extreme until but you know it's no longer

00:50:43.180 liberalism anymore um where were we getting right we were just getting depressed that's where we

00:50:50.220 were sorry about that but but it's a good point family dinners must be must be fun at the west

00:50:58.880 oh yeah i mean my kids are going to grow up i'm just i've kind of kept off my real views to them

00:51:04.080 a little bit i don't want to i want them to sort of be to be liberal as their kids i want them to

00:51:08.280 be you know enjoy your life go to all these demos get stuck in it'll be fun you know and then when

00:51:13.440 you're a bit older you can you know realize it's all bollocks here's the red pill here's the black 1.00

00:51:17.460 pills um yeah exactly just enjoy yourself you know but um no yeah i keep but that's a big worry i i

00:51:24.660 don't know i i can't speak for everybody but it's certainly a big worry for me is like bringing

00:51:29.020 children into this world if if you're describing it accurately and then what are you bringing them

00:51:36.180 in the world too well i mean i i don't know i hear that a lot and then it's not more about the

00:51:42.980 the environmental thing it's normally that i mean it's good yeah i mean quite pessimistic about

00:51:49.860 the future of england really i mean a lot will depend what happens in america basically we're

00:51:54.260 basically dependent on them we're basically dependent america taking the right cultural

00:51:58.260 choices now and not becoming more divided and more extreme and sort of more i don't know my basic

00:52:04.340 fundamental problem of liberalism is that

00:52:06.280 liberalism in kind of both senses of the world

00:52:08.280 is that it just makes people unhappy ultimately.

00:52:10.600 You just end up lots of really

00:52:12.380 kind of lonely,

00:52:14.620 disappointed people

00:52:15.440 who make really bad choices in their lives.

00:52:17.860 You need

00:52:18.920 not instruction, but you need

00:52:21.520 kind of basic pathways.

00:52:24.060 This is what you're going to do unless you're really

00:52:25.600 unless you really

00:52:27.720 feel otherwise. This is the normal thing that most

00:52:29.760 people do in life.

00:52:31.880 But the new order

00:52:33.900 will just encourage people to make terrible terrible life choices i mean the classic one 0.98

00:52:37.660 to come back to this you know why don't you go and mutilate yourself so you can't have children 0.99

00:52:42.420 later which is you know loads and loads of girls are getting this message from tiktok 0.99

00:52:46.980 just like let out all your most most like anti-social disagreeable personality traits and

00:52:53.900 just you know i mean the tiktok thing is what really that's the really depressing thing as a

00:52:58.880 parent. That is like the pathway to such terrible ideas. It's just basically a complete moral

00:53:05.560 anarchy in there. It's actually quite disturbing. So let's get into that. So what's going on on

00:53:10.360 TikTok? God, I feel like... Yeah, it is really... Okay, one of the things you can't say that you

00:53:18.840 probably get in trouble for is like, girls tend to be like a bit more conformist than boys. I mean, 0.95

00:53:23.580 and that's one thing Jordan Peterson says, and like, wow, you can't say that. It's like,

00:53:27.120 it's blandly obvious. So teenage girls are particularly susceptible to ideas, the spread

00:53:32.400 of ideas, like, like memes that can spread because social contagion. So, you know, it was anorexia

00:53:42.400 at one point, there is still anorexia, self harm and stuff. Like TikTok is just a complete world

00:53:48.240 of that, you know, all these terrible ideas are spread. And you know, one of the problems, you

00:53:53.920 know we have generally society is that no one wants to be the adult no one's to say no you

00:53:57.820 can't do that i'm telling you no it's not happening everyone wants to be your friend

00:54:00.940 and that kind of extends to children oh you must make the right choice in uh life um that's really

00:54:07.000 not a good idea with children i mean i would say as as a teenager i made terrible choices i had no

00:54:11.340 common sense no real wisdom i'm not particularly wise now but um you know you need people to have

00:54:17.220 these kind of guides guides you like this is the kind of this is what you should do this is how you

00:54:22.400 should behave around people um and tick tock is just all sorts of rubbish coming i mean i think

00:54:28.240 the chinese do actually censor it which is or at least they sort of fix it so pro chinese or what 0.80

00:54:34.640 they want people to um do while the western one is just anarchy so it's just complete crazed i mean

00:54:41.360 i think that is also what the chinese lesson will to us in future with their sort of societies like

00:54:47.140 we we have it ordered so you do certain things i think that will appear attractive to some people

00:54:51.860 who have enough of sort of the anarchy of what the western model um that's a bit of a side issue

00:54:58.660 yeah yeah tiktok is just bad it's really really bad kids they're not getting a smartphone until

00:55:03.840 they're about 30 correct yeah you actually that is i mean that's an example where that you know

00:55:09.180 i think they should just be it should be banned for under 16s it's if all the other kids have 1.00

00:55:13.440 you know smartphones it's very hard to say to your child you know you're going to be the only one

00:55:17.840 You're going to be the weird kid who wasn't allowed ITV as a kid.

00:55:21.220 You know, he wasn't allowed to watch Green Chill or, you know,

00:55:23.260 you're going to be that social outcast.

00:55:25.660 It's very hard.

00:55:26.400 Kids are conformists, basically.

00:55:28.020 Mate, my kids are going to be social outcasts no matter what happens.

00:55:34.680 Listen, man, it's been an hour and it's flown by.

00:55:36.940 It's flown by.

00:55:37.440 There's one question I want to ask at the end, right?

00:55:39.600 Just this one, you know.

00:55:41.120 So you're saying society's going to hell in a handcuff.

00:55:44.420 In a handcuff.

00:55:45.040 But the thing that I've really enjoyed about this, though,

00:55:47.420 It's presented in this sort of playful English unattached way.

00:55:52.120 That might be ironic. I don't know.

00:55:53.500 Nobody knows.

00:55:54.480 And it's quite enjoyable and it's a bit lighthearted,

00:55:56.880 but we are all about to die.

00:55:58.360 Yeah, but here's the thing.

00:55:59.780 Isn't that the classic conservative position?

00:56:02.540 Conservatives have always gone, 1.00

00:56:04.320 society's about to crumble, everything's shit. 1.00

00:56:06.720 I will be right eventually. 1.00

00:56:09.660 It's like my granny always thought she was dying.

00:56:11.940 She was proved correct eventually after 50, 60 years.

00:56:15.400 There we go.

00:56:15.920 do you have any evidence that there's you're more accurate you're closer to like there was a point

00:56:22.840 when your granny saying she was about to die was actually starting to get pretty yeah yeah yeah 0.70

00:56:27.260 do you have any evidence to suggest that your diagnosis for society is actually a little bit

00:56:32.360 more accurate than it would have been 20 years ago uh i think if you went i mean i don't know

00:56:39.280 we were talking about this in the office if you went back to 2001 and you explained our worlds to

00:56:43.480 them. It would be pretty weird to explain the whole thing. Yeah,

00:56:47.140 I mean, we just got the Taliban in one, there's a war in Syria,

00:56:50.920 which Al Qaeda, like one of the moderate groups, you know, the

00:56:54.700 the main issue is about the rights for people like me to go to

00:56:58.420 women's toilets. That's like the cutting edge of like, social 1.00

00:57:03.560 justice.

00:57:05.800 By the way, the government's just locked you in your house for 15

00:57:08.200 months.

00:57:08.540 Yes, we didn't actually mention lockdowns. That's interesting.

00:57:10.900 see I've forgotten about COVID already

00:57:12.780 it's all over

00:57:13.680 yeah I don't know

00:57:19.980 I mean

00:57:20.320 I don't want to say we're doomed

00:57:22.480 I think things will just continue as normal

00:57:24.460 for a while

00:57:25.500 I mean I can't predict more than 20 years

00:57:27.580 I think we'll just slowly try to

00:57:28.860 I don't think we're going to have like

00:57:29.780 apocalypse yet are we

00:57:31.620 I don't know

00:57:32.400 maybe climate change would actually do that 0.78

00:57:34.420 great

00:57:36.260 so guys

00:57:37.260 tune in next week

00:57:38.800 for the end of the world

00:57:40.220 interview. Ed, listen, it's been

00:57:42.440 an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed

00:57:44.560 reading Small Men on the Wrong Side of History.

00:57:46.580 Thank you. And as always,

00:57:48.620 before we do our questions for our local

00:57:50.520 supporters, we've got one more

00:57:52.540 question for you. Which is always, what's the one thing

00:57:54.580 we're not talking about, but we really should be?

00:57:57.200 I kind of actually mentioned it.

00:57:58.480 It's the kind of TikTok and the influence it's having

00:58:00.520 on

00:58:00.800 teenagers. My most pessimistic thing about

00:58:04.380 Western society is that the victims of

00:58:06.440 ideologies do tend to be

00:58:08.320 young girls.

00:58:10.220 that's and and i think that's definitely the case uh the uncertainty now about like the

00:58:15.820 sexual evolution the biggest victims of that are basically teenage girls who are you know 0.83

00:58:21.560 all the studies show that they are just more and more miserable and you know sort of confused about

00:58:26.160 everything um and you know if you spend any time online that's clearly true of you know you know

00:58:33.400 even after they're 18 you know in their 20s so many of them seem to be like much unhappier than

00:58:39.920 they used to be and i you know i think that's sort of the end of liberalism really that's the

00:58:43.880 sort of end product that's why people have this kind of need for certainty the need and use of

00:58:48.220 order telling them what to do so that sounds very simplistic doesn't it um but i think yeah that'd

00:58:56.560 be like a progressive you know that's you know that's why the sort of people would turn i think

00:59:00.100 there is definitely things people will turn about against like sex positivity in the future there

00:59:03.720 will be some i mean i think you would talk about um will there be a reaction there'll be small

00:59:09.840 little reactions in certain areas i think yeah there won't be a big christian religious revival

00:59:14.700 but there'll be certain areas where there's a lot of like kickback um while in other areas you know

00:59:19.440 things will go on i think ed thank you so much for coming on the show it's been a pleasure if

00:59:25.200 people want to find you where's the best place to do that uh online yeah i guess on twitter just ed

00:59:32.760 west or unheard obviously just go to unheard you can find me there's a picture of me somewhere and

00:59:36.800 where can they get the book i guess jeff bezels is probably a thing there we go we've all sold

00:59:43.620 out uh ed thank you so much for coming on and thank you for watching at home and listening we

00:59:48.500 will see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one or or show all of them

00:59:53.060 at 7 p.m uk time which is 2 p.m eastern take care and see you soon guys we hope you've enjoyed this

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TRIGGERnometry - September 05, 2021

Have Conservatives Lost the Culture War？ - Ed West

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