TRIGGERnometry - Have We Lost Trust in Science？

00:00:00.640 So now we have people in a once-in-a-century pandemic

00:00:05.400 trying to communicate science to the public, okay?

00:00:10.420 I don't want to call it a total disaster,

00:00:13.080 but there were parts that it was like, no, no.

00:00:18.640 And the establishment view is not from authorities on high.

00:00:22.640 No, it's the consensus of research

00:00:24.760 conducted by hard-working scientists

00:00:26.660 in a lab whose name you've never heard of.

00:00:30.000 I'm wondering whether the future of those sports

00:00:33.380 is you don't contest gender with gender,

00:00:38.080 you contest hormone ratios.

00:00:40.840 Well, hold on a second.

00:00:41.860 What do you think of that?

00:00:43.260 The difference is physiologically between men and women

00:00:45.680 and not just hormonal.

00:00:47.460 They see an unfair playing field,

00:00:50.000 metaphorically and literally speaking.

00:00:52.140 So fix the playing field, damn it.

00:00:54.260 Don't say it's an unfair playing field,

00:00:56.420 so all of a sudden the big issue is trans women

00:00:59.420 taking the slot of a woman in an unfair playing field.

00:01:02.740 Fix the playing field.

00:01:03.840 And you know something?

00:01:04.700 The day you fix that playing field,

00:01:06.700 this conversation will look completely ridiculous.

00:01:09.880 That's what I'm trying to tell you.

00:01:11.340 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:24.500 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:25.860 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:26.840 And this is a show for you

00:01:28.340 if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:31.980 Our brilliant guest today

00:01:33.000 is a prominent American astrophysicist,

00:01:35.180 the author of many books,

00:01:36.240 the latest of which is called

00:01:37.540 Starry Messenger Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization.

00:01:40.640 Neil deGrasse Tyson, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:42.900 Thank you.

00:01:43.540 Thank you.

00:01:44.020 I thought there'd be math on the show,

00:01:45.480 but apparently not.

00:01:46.760 We will see.

00:01:47.920 We'll see how much math there is.

00:01:49.480 That's the only reason why I agree to this,

00:01:51.940 that we do some...

00:01:53.140 All right.

00:01:53.580 Well, two plus two equals four.

00:01:55.440 I hope we can agree on that,

00:01:56.680 although some people dispute even that these days.

00:01:59.160 Yeah.

00:01:59.540 But anyway.

00:02:00.680 Anyway, welcome.

00:02:01.400 It is a clever name for the show,

00:02:04.540 Trigonometry.

00:02:05.500 That's good.

00:02:06.160 One of the greatest astrophysicists in the world

00:02:08.480 likes the name of the show.

00:02:09.580 I think we've done well.

00:02:11.680 So, Neil, welcome, first of all.

00:02:13.220 I cannot wait to talk about your book

00:02:14.880 because one of the things that

00:02:16.640 whenever I'm having a particularly bad day

00:02:18.680 or things are not going well in my life,

00:02:20.540 I'll stick one of those YouTube videos on

00:02:22.520 that shows you a zoom out from planet Earth

00:02:26.040 into the solar system.

00:02:27.900 That'll do it every time.

00:02:29.060 Into the Milky Way and on and on.

00:02:30.880 And I think that cosmic perspective on life

00:02:33.220 is a really powerful thing.

00:02:34.640 Before we get into that

00:02:36.100 and some of the more controversial stuff

00:02:37.720 that you've been saying lately,

00:02:39.160 let's talk briefly about your career today.

00:02:42.200 Who are you?

00:02:42.860 How are you where you are?

00:02:43.720 What has been the journey through life

00:02:45.220 that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:02:47.260 Did I say something controversial?

00:02:49.100 Well, we'll find out.

00:02:50.060 I'm just offering points of view.

00:02:52.040 Okay.

00:02:53.020 That's controversial nowadays.

00:02:54.700 I don't know if you know this.

00:02:54.900 Yeah, but it shouldn't be, really, I'm thinking.

00:02:57.700 But okay.

00:02:58.240 So your opening question is?

00:03:00.900 Who are you?

00:03:01.600 What's been a journey through life?

00:03:02.700 Oh, oh, okay.

00:03:05.600 I've known I was interested in the universe from age nine,

00:03:09.780 dating back to a first visit to my local planetarium.

00:03:14.080 I grew up in New York City.

00:03:15.720 So my local planetarium is the Hayden Planetarium,

00:03:18.700 where I now happen to also serve as director.

00:03:21.860 And going on now 27th year, I think, as director.

00:03:25.840 So it's one of these hometown kid does good,

00:03:30.900 but in New York City, the city's too large.

00:03:33.100 No one cares.

00:03:33.920 So that story doesn't resonate the way it might

00:03:37.520 if it was actually a small town.

00:03:39.820 One thing about a planetarium in a city is,

00:03:43.780 and this is surely true for London,

00:03:45.840 where the planetarium might be your only access

00:03:49.220 to the night sky because big cities,

00:03:52.020 in the old days, there was air pollution.

00:03:53.900 Today, there's light pollution.

00:03:56.520 And so it blocks what would otherwise be your access

00:04:00.000 to the cosmos.

00:04:01.560 And so for me, my first encounter with the night sky,

00:04:05.140 I kind of thought it was a hoax, right?

00:04:07.820 There are not this many stars in the night sky.

00:04:10.540 I've seen all 12 of them from the Bronx, okay?

00:04:14.880 So I would later learn, of course,

00:04:17.840 that the sky displayed in the planetarium dome

00:04:20.920 was the real sky, a version of the real sky.

00:04:25.300 But to this day, when I'm on mountaintops

00:04:28.880 or some of the finest observing locations in the world,

00:04:32.020 I find myself thinking, this is so beautiful.

00:04:36.220 It reminds me of the Hayden Planetarium.

00:04:38.360 I know, that's a sad fact, but it's real.

00:04:42.180 I feel it.

00:04:43.220 So I've been thinking about the universe ever since.

00:04:47.620 Early on, I'm just reading books,

00:04:49.140 and then I align my academic career

00:04:51.380 to fulfill that interest, right on through a PhD.

00:04:56.300 And so I did research mostly many years ago.

00:05:01.900 Lately, I've been mostly in the public eye,

00:05:04.760 writing books, appearing in documentaries.

00:05:07.340 Among them, Cosmos.

00:05:09.620 I did the second and third versions of that.

00:05:12.480 Carl Sagan did the first back in 1980.

00:05:15.980 Very honored to continue that tradition

00:05:18.300 of bringing the universe down to Earth

00:05:20.780 to whoever will listen,

00:05:22.960 and as a servant of their curiosity.

00:05:26.100 So that's who I am and what I've been about.

00:05:28.480 And you've been communicating science to the public

00:05:31.500 in very interesting and appealing ways for a long time.

00:05:34.940 Why is that important, Neil?

00:05:37.100 Why is it important that we as the public

00:05:39.380 are informed about the science?

00:05:40.820 Yeah, I will not tell you what you should think is important,

00:05:43.300 because I'm just offering content.

00:05:47.280 And I'm not going to hit you on the head

00:05:49.500 to require that you listen to me.

00:05:52.660 I'm not going to do any of that,

00:05:54.280 because I'm much more passive about it.

00:05:56.460 Even if it doesn't feel that way,

00:05:58.220 because my face is everywhere,

00:05:59.660 and videos are everywhere, of course,

00:06:01.520 and I'm active on social media.

00:06:03.640 And so the algorithms could possibly

00:06:06.420 stick me in front of your device

00:06:09.280 more often than you might want.

00:06:12.000 But really, I feel more passive about it.

00:06:16.700 These are offerings.

00:06:17.640 And what's perhaps distinctive about it,

00:06:20.600 and thanks for noticing,

00:06:21.880 is that there are many different platforms

00:06:25.740 on which I bring the universe to you.

00:06:28.800 And these different platforms aren't simply

00:06:30.860 because you're watching this

00:06:32.880 and somebody else is watching that,

00:06:34.500 and I want to reach both of you, sure.

00:06:37.260 But I write a book,

00:06:41.000 but they're people who don't read.

00:06:44.300 Not that they're illiterate,

00:06:45.440 but that's just not their main choice

00:06:47.880 of how they learn.

00:06:49.400 They might prefer documentary.

00:06:51.500 So I appear in documentaries,

00:06:53.680 ones that I've hosted,

00:06:55.380 and others where I'm a talking head

00:06:57.020 within someone else's documentary.

00:06:59.640 There are people whose lives pivot

00:07:01.700 on their social media interfaces.

00:07:04.940 So I have an active Twitter account,

00:07:07.140 X account, they would call it today.

00:07:09.340 I even have an active TikTok account.

00:07:12.880 And I have people advising me

00:07:14.640 who are one-third my age

00:07:16.780 on what would fit today versus tomorrow

00:07:20.640 on that TikTok account.

00:07:22.540 So I'm on many different platforms.

00:07:25.820 And my podcast, which is called StarTalk,

00:07:30.080 I have a professional comedian as my co-host.

00:07:33.560 And I've had people,

00:07:34.740 and the DNA of that podcast is

00:07:38.460 there's science, humor, and pop culture.

00:07:41.900 And the three of those threaded

00:07:44.020 make a tapestry of,

00:07:47.720 that you can snuggle in

00:07:49.680 and embrace the universe

00:07:51.580 as fed in that,

00:07:54.040 with those elements.

00:07:55.800 I've had people say to me,

00:07:57.160 what do you need the comedian for?

00:07:58.420 I just want to listen to you.

00:07:59.940 Well, there are these other platforms

00:08:02.240 where it's just me.

00:08:03.600 Go ahead.

00:08:05.040 All right?

00:08:05.280 I have a master class.

00:08:07.040 It's just me.

00:08:08.060 I have that.

00:08:10.100 But there's some people

00:08:10.820 who like to laugh

00:08:11.960 while they're learning.

00:08:13.920 And they like the references

00:08:15.500 to pop culture

00:08:16.580 because they care about pop culture.

00:08:19.180 That's almost the definition

00:08:20.420 of pop culture.

00:08:21.560 Stuff we all care about.

00:08:23.740 Whether or not we want to.

00:08:25.640 You know who Beyonce is.

00:08:27.260 You know Taylor Swift.

00:08:29.240 You know, you know,

00:08:31.180 the Pope might have said

00:08:32.240 something recently.

00:08:33.080 Or Trump.

00:08:33.900 This is all pop culture.

00:08:35.660 And there's a scaffold.

00:08:36.440 You walk into my room.

00:08:38.460 My, you know, platform.

00:08:41.600 You walk in with a scaffold.

00:08:43.360 And I know what constructs that scaffold.

00:08:47.480 And I find science

00:08:48.480 that can attach to it.

00:08:50.480 So I don't have to teach you

00:08:51.860 the pop culture.

00:08:52.580 You already know it.

00:08:53.900 But did you know

00:08:55.160 that if you apply

00:08:56.940 a little bit of astrophysics

00:08:58.540 to the Barbie movie,

00:09:01.340 Barbie Land finds itself

00:09:02.860 in the Florida Keys?

00:09:04.420 Did you know that?

00:09:05.440 OK?

00:09:06.320 I calculated that

00:09:08.160 and posted that.

00:09:09.000 That's pop culture.

00:09:09.900 It's actually real science

00:09:11.140 and a little bit of geography

00:09:12.620 related to it.

00:09:14.300 So my energy is shared

00:09:16.780 on all these platforms.

00:09:18.000 And if you don't want to listen,

00:09:19.500 I'm not going to force you.

00:09:21.200 It's just there for your taking.

00:09:24.380 No, no, no.

00:09:24.820 Keep watching.

00:09:25.640 We need the algorithmic engagement.

00:09:27.480 Keep watching.

00:09:28.300 You must watch this.

00:09:29.460 Neil, I think you do

00:09:32.540 a hugely important job,

00:09:34.320 which is essentially

00:09:35.120 being the public face

00:09:36.280 of your discipline.

00:09:39.180 Post-pandemic,

00:09:40.340 do you think that science

00:09:41.880 has taken a battering

00:09:43.260 in that people have lost

00:09:44.780 a little bit of faith

00:09:45.660 in scientists

00:09:46.520 as a result of, you know,

00:09:48.380 things that people said,

00:09:49.760 for instance,

00:09:50.360 you know, that people were saying,

00:09:51.320 well, you know,

00:09:51.660 if you take the vaccine,

00:09:52.440 it means that you can't

00:09:53.220 pass it on,

00:09:54.440 the virus,

00:09:54.980 and then that turned out

00:09:56.140 not to be true.

00:09:57.020 Now, obviously,

00:09:57.780 I'm not asking you

00:09:58.460 to comment on that,

00:09:59.500 but just do you think

00:10:01.180 that people are now

00:10:02.160 just a little bit more

00:10:03.280 skeptical of scientists,

00:10:04.660 a little bit more untrusting?

00:10:06.980 So there are a couple

00:10:07.940 of loose edges there.

00:10:09.780 So let me explore that with you.

00:10:13.520 All right.

00:10:13.820 So first,

00:10:16.100 no single scientist

00:10:20.000 ever communicates the truth

00:10:24.140 unless they are communicating

00:10:26.180 a consensus of observations

00:10:28.520 that have been made.

00:10:30.120 And unfortunately,

00:10:30.820 I don't have a better word

00:10:32.140 than consensus

00:10:32.880 to use in that sentence

00:10:34.320 because typically

00:10:35.160 when we hear the word consensus,

00:10:36.820 it relates to

00:10:38.220 a shared opinion

00:10:39.920 about something.

00:10:41.280 In science,

00:10:42.360 it's not about opinions.

00:10:43.460 It's about the results

00:10:44.500 of experiments.

00:10:46.000 And if you have

00:10:46.700 a set of experiments,

00:10:48.220 most of which

00:10:49.120 lean in this direction

00:10:50.500 instead of that direction,

00:10:51.640 it's like,

00:10:52.060 hey, we're onto something here.

00:10:54.140 And I'm going to go

00:10:55.340 with the consensus

00:10:56.160 of those observations

00:10:57.280 and experiments.

00:10:58.120 And they have nothing

00:10:58.920 to do with the individual.

00:11:01.160 Okay?

00:11:01.820 So what's curious to me

00:11:03.740 is we live in an era

00:11:04.900 where you can channel surf

00:11:07.080 on YouTube.

00:11:08.280 Is that what it's called?

00:11:09.300 Just surf on YouTube.

00:11:10.560 They're not channels,

00:11:11.460 I guess.

00:11:11.900 You surf on YouTube

00:11:12.820 and you land on somebody

00:11:14.320 who says,

00:11:15.020 the mainstream thinks

00:11:17.220 this is true.

00:11:18.420 The establishment thinks this,

00:11:20.100 but here's the actual truth.

00:11:22.860 You're all in on that.

00:11:25.540 Okay?

00:11:26.000 But why are you all in on that?

00:11:29.640 And there's something about

00:11:31.420 the lone genius

00:11:33.940 that we want to snuggle up to them

00:11:38.680 rather than the faceless establishment.

00:11:42.920 Because that person is speaking passionately.

00:11:45.460 And our response

00:11:47.620 to fellow humans

00:11:48.660 speaking passionately

00:11:49.800 is well known

00:11:51.260 in the advertising industry.

00:11:53.980 They could just show you

00:11:54.800 a bar chart

00:11:55.600 of why their product

00:11:56.840 is better than everybody else's.

00:11:58.660 But no,

00:11:59.560 they have a person saying,

00:12:00.920 I use this

00:12:01.760 and it changed my life.

00:12:03.240 And it'll change your life too.

00:12:04.960 That's what you listen to.

00:12:07.220 We're blind

00:12:08.240 to the statistical representation

00:12:10.560 of reality.

00:12:12.440 And I'm,

00:12:14.240 okay,

00:12:14.740 we're human

00:12:15.300 and do I complain about that

00:12:17.260 or just try to navigate that?

00:12:18.660 I don't know.

00:12:20.040 I do know

00:12:20.700 we're not very good

00:12:21.620 at thinking statistically

00:12:22.540 about the world.

00:12:23.820 Okay?

00:12:24.560 And if we were better at it,

00:12:26.340 no one would play the lottery.

00:12:28.240 Okay?

00:12:28.820 Just,

00:12:29.320 let's understand that.

00:12:30.480 All right?

00:12:30.900 And we have people

00:12:32.180 who exploit this ignorance

00:12:34.720 exquisitely

00:12:36.000 and they're called

00:12:37.620 casino owners.

00:12:39.580 Okay?

00:12:39.940 They're exploiting the fact

00:12:42.140 that humans

00:12:43.100 fundamentally

00:12:44.000 do not understand

00:12:45.180 probability and statistics.

00:12:46.920 Okay?

00:12:47.420 So that's an education problem

00:12:49.520 and that gap

00:12:51.760 manifests in adulthood

00:12:53.180 with our susceptibility

00:12:54.760 to others

00:12:55.880 who do know the statistics

00:12:57.820 who then exploit

00:12:59.020 your ignorance of it.

00:13:01.000 That's my first point.

00:13:02.660 Another loose edge is

00:13:03.920 we have institutions

00:13:05.820 and people representing institutions

00:13:08.260 where science research

00:13:09.720 is conducted.

00:13:11.200 Okay?

00:13:11.500 Or conducted under their auspices.

00:13:13.260 The National Academy of Sciences

00:13:14.960 in the United States.

00:13:16.580 The National Institutes of Health.

00:13:18.300 And the UK surely has

00:13:19.800 corresponding agencies

00:13:21.420 to this.

00:13:22.540 Here's a problem.

00:13:23.540 How well do they know

00:13:26.140 how to communicate?

00:13:28.040 Okay?

00:13:29.120 We're not,

00:13:29.920 as scientists,

00:13:31.060 we don't take graduate courses

00:13:32.520 in communication

00:13:33.360 and how people

00:13:34.620 will misthink

00:13:35.440 what you say

00:13:36.280 or how they will,

00:13:38.840 how you'll try

00:13:39.740 to say something

00:13:40.460 in a way

00:13:41.180 that,

00:13:41.920 no,

00:13:42.080 no,

00:13:42.540 none of them

00:13:43.380 are trained in this.

00:13:44.820 So now we have people

00:13:46.120 in a once-in-a-century

00:13:48.040 pandemic

00:13:49.200 trying to communicate

00:13:51.520 science to the public.

00:13:53.560 Okay?

00:13:54.380 I don't want to call it

00:13:55.580 a total disaster

00:13:56.580 but there were parts

00:13:58.480 that it was like,

00:13:59.920 no,

00:14:00.900 no.

00:14:01.960 So with the benefit

00:14:03.720 of hindsight,

00:14:05.080 let me say

00:14:06.300 how it should have happened.

00:14:08.980 Okay?

00:14:10.060 The CDC,

00:14:11.120 the Center for Disease Control

00:14:12.640 and Prevention

00:14:13.200 in the United States,

00:14:14.540 here's what they should have said.

00:14:15.700 They should have said,

00:14:16.580 here's what we know

00:14:17.920 today

00:14:18.780 based on a set of

00:14:21.360 research results

00:14:23.140 that have come in.

00:14:24.840 Okay?

00:14:25.360 And you don't focus

00:14:26.340 on one researcher.

00:14:27.540 There's the ensemble.

00:14:29.020 Okay?

00:14:29.620 Here's what we know.

00:14:30.580 And based on this,

00:14:32.360 we recommend

00:14:33.260 that.

00:14:35.580 Okay?

00:14:36.580 Based on this,

00:14:37.560 we recommend that.

00:14:39.080 We will update you

00:14:40.520 weekly

00:14:41.080 on what we have learned

00:14:43.440 because

00:14:44.000 this is a hot

00:14:45.280 area of research.

00:14:46.680 and as research

00:14:48.700 comes in,

00:14:49.320 if it continues

00:14:50.060 to reinforce

00:14:50.920 these results,

00:14:52.320 we will continue

00:14:53.380 to urge you

00:14:55.100 you do these things.

00:14:56.780 If we find research

00:14:58.680 that does not

00:14:59.580 completely

00:15:00.940 agree with that,

00:15:02.380 it might have,

00:15:02.900 we will tell you that

00:15:04.120 and we will be honest

00:15:05.580 about these uncertainties.

00:15:07.960 Okay?

00:15:08.960 And we will only

00:15:10.500 make

00:15:10.680 a

00:15:12.000 federal

00:15:14.620 level

00:15:15.480 requirement

00:15:16.660 when we have

00:15:18.560 the statistical

00:15:19.240 confidence

00:15:19.860 in the research

00:15:20.940 that has been conducted.

00:15:23.260 That's how it should

00:15:24.160 have unfolded.

00:15:25.160 But it didn't.

00:15:25.980 That sounds so good,

00:15:27.540 Neil,

00:15:27.740 but we were so,

00:15:28.760 so far away from that,

00:15:29.940 weren't we?

00:15:30.020 We were,

00:15:30.700 but to do that,

00:15:32.300 it requires

00:15:33.000 that you have

00:15:33.980 some sense

00:15:34.960 of what this,

00:15:36.660 because if you're

00:15:37.440 reporting science,

00:15:38.300 you're reporting

00:15:38.760 the statistics,

00:15:40.120 all,

00:15:40.660 no one,

00:15:41.200 no scientist

00:15:41.820 will ever say,

00:15:42.600 this is a certainty

00:15:43.540 and this is totally,

00:15:44.920 they'll say,

00:15:45.780 this,

00:15:46.180 we have a 98%

00:15:47.360 and 95%

00:15:48.540 because we have

00:15:49.580 statistical measures

00:15:50.780 of the results

00:15:52.300 we get.

00:15:53.180 That is the currency

00:15:54.440 of our communication

00:15:55.440 in any scientific journal.

00:15:58.260 So,

00:15:59.000 the person reporting

00:16:00.200 this should not say,

00:16:01.580 we are certain of this,

00:16:02.520 they should say,

00:16:03.560 we,

00:16:03.940 our data show

00:16:05.400 that is a 95%

00:16:07.260 likelihood

00:16:07.680 of this being true.

00:16:09.580 Okay?

00:16:09.920 Now,

00:16:10.240 you have to ask yourself,

00:16:11.740 if you're about

00:16:12.880 to cross a bridge

00:16:13.740 that was just built

00:16:14.880 and 95%

00:16:18.680 of random engineers

00:16:20.400 you come up to

00:16:21.160 and say,

00:16:21.480 tell me about this bridge,

00:16:22.280 they'll say,

00:16:22.560 it's going to collapse

00:16:23.320 with the first truck

00:16:24.080 that goes over it

00:16:24.760 and you'll be dead

00:16:25.520 because there's a long drop.

00:16:26.920 But 5% of the engineers

00:16:28.840 say,

00:16:29.020 no,

00:16:29.320 no,

00:16:29.560 you'll be fine.

00:16:32.440 What are you going to do?

00:16:33.680 I'm going with the 95%

00:16:35.140 of the engineers

00:16:35.520 because there will always

00:16:36.440 be outliers.

00:16:37.900 Yeah.

00:16:38.260 always,

00:16:40.140 always,

00:16:41.100 that's why

00:16:41.740 one person,

00:16:43.340 one research result

00:16:44.520 is not the thing.

00:16:46.600 And you had people

00:16:48.000 in the outlier part

00:16:49.640 of this statistics

00:16:50.940 posting YouTube statements

00:16:54.220 that,

00:16:55.960 no,

00:16:56.160 I've done my research

00:16:57.260 and this is all bullshit,

00:16:58.500 you should listen to me.

00:16:59.640 No,

00:17:00.540 never do that.

00:17:02.020 Never.

00:17:03.140 Never?

00:17:03.660 Haven't there been people

00:17:04.980 screaming at you here.

00:17:05.780 I'm just trying,

00:17:06.220 I'm getting excited.

00:17:07.040 Yeah,

00:17:07.480 no,

00:17:07.800 it's great.

00:17:08.540 It's great.

00:17:08.920 But Neil,

00:17:09.220 to engage you on that point.

00:17:10.420 No one research result

00:17:13.420 should be accepted

00:17:16.540 as the truth.

00:17:17.480 It has to have verification

00:17:19.420 to,

00:17:20.260 as a double check,

00:17:21.160 was there bias?

00:17:22.360 Did their wall current

00:17:23.460 fluctuate

00:17:24.100 when they got the result

00:17:25.580 from their plug-in experiment?

00:17:28.080 Were their data complete?

00:17:29.880 Were it not?

00:17:30.560 How did they do?

00:17:31.960 I'll give an example.

00:17:33.080 Here's an example.

00:17:34.100 There was a research paper

00:17:35.820 that came out recently

00:17:37.100 that said that mask wearing

00:17:38.980 was no better

00:17:39.740 than non-mask wearing,

00:17:41.880 okay,

00:17:42.640 for COVID.

00:17:43.800 And I said,

00:17:45.000 wow,

00:17:45.760 that's interesting.

00:17:47.820 How did they get these results?

00:17:49.460 So they showed their studies

00:17:51.500 and people who said

00:17:52.480 whether they wore masks

00:17:53.500 and those who didn't,

00:17:55.120 okay,

00:17:55.480 and they compared those results.

00:17:57.520 And I said,

00:17:58.200 wow,

00:17:59.000 I wonder if the people

00:18:00.380 who said they were wearing masks

00:18:01.920 had it completely covering

00:18:03.700 their mouth and nose

00:18:04.700 because we've seen mask wearers

00:18:06.580 where the nose is sticking out

00:18:08.220 above the thing.

00:18:09.440 We know people out there

00:18:11.040 are like this,

00:18:11.900 okay?

00:18:12.700 There was no mention

00:18:13.800 of the integrity

00:18:15.440 of the claims

00:18:16.920 of people wearing the mask.

00:18:18.420 So then I thought to myself,

00:18:19.800 if your result

00:18:21.380 is that mask wearing

00:18:23.320 does not prevent

00:18:24.800 either the transmission

00:18:27.520 or the,

00:18:28.460 what's the other way,

00:18:29.260 where you would receive COVID

00:18:33.400 or you'd spread COVID?

00:18:35.300 Yeah.

00:18:36.060 That would be the result

00:18:37.300 of the century.

00:18:38.640 But the way you test that

00:18:40.320 is not asking people

00:18:41.600 where they wore the mask.

00:18:42.900 Here's an experiment

00:18:43.680 you would do.

00:18:44.420 You'd get the N95 material,

00:18:47.260 you'd set up a membrane

00:18:48.500 of that between two sides

00:18:50.380 of a container,

00:18:51.860 of a vessel.

00:18:52.480 and you put COVID vaccine

00:18:55.320 aerosol on one side

00:18:57.980 and make sure

00:18:59.360 it's not on the other side

00:19:00.520 and then put a pressure difference

00:19:02.620 between the two

00:19:03.320 so that this air flows across

00:19:05.940 and test to see

00:19:07.620 whether the COVID aerosols

00:19:09.300 made it through.

00:19:10.740 If they made it through,

00:19:12.360 then you'd have

00:19:13.380 an authentic scientific result

00:19:15.240 that said the mask

00:19:16.160 does not work.

00:19:17.400 If they don't make it through,

00:19:19.140 then you have a result

00:19:20.480 that they do.

00:19:21.260 So that's how

00:19:23.300 that experiment

00:19:24.320 should have been conducted

00:19:25.560 and it wasn't.

00:19:27.400 But everyone jumped on it

00:19:29.200 who didn't want masks

00:19:30.800 to have mattered

00:19:31.540 and they accepted

00:19:33.180 this one result

00:19:34.220 because it fed

00:19:35.300 their sense of the world.

00:19:39.220 So that's my overblown

00:19:43.620 response to your

00:19:45.520 very simple question

00:19:46.440 about the COVID response

00:19:49.060 and the scientific establishment.

00:19:51.260 So, yeah,

00:19:52.800 there were issues

00:19:53.260 in the communication.

00:19:54.600 There's issues

00:19:55.080 in how we receive information.

00:19:56.960 There's our urge

00:19:57.660 to believe the lone person

00:19:59.340 which has deep flaws

00:20:01.620 completely built into it.

00:20:03.420 And so I hope

00:20:04.700 in a century

00:20:05.600 we remember

00:20:06.600 some of these lessons

00:20:07.440 as we go forward.

00:20:08.720 I think it's a very profound point.

00:20:10.560 I think also as well,

00:20:12.460 I guess my problem

00:20:13.560 with the way

00:20:14.340 that the entire pandemic

00:20:16.020 was communicated,

00:20:17.100 there were people

00:20:17.820 who were incredibly notable

00:20:19.900 experts in their field

00:20:21.340 with glowing reputations

00:20:23.100 who proffered

00:20:24.520 a different view

00:20:25.740 and they were kind of...

00:20:27.780 That's my point.

00:20:28.000 It doesn't matter.

00:20:29.020 Your reputation,

00:20:30.060 your title,

00:20:31.040 none of that,

00:20:32.240 in science,

00:20:33.460 none of that matters

00:20:34.920 unless by their reputation

00:20:37.960 they have access

00:20:39.500 to large-scale studies

00:20:40.940 that they are reporting

00:20:41.960 to you.

00:20:43.220 Okay?

00:20:43.920 But not the lone person

00:20:46.560 who says,

00:20:47.800 I have this degree

00:20:48.740 and I hail from this

00:20:50.160 storied institution

00:20:51.860 and I'm telling you

00:20:53.200 that all those people

00:20:54.000 are wrong.

00:20:54.700 That is the sure sign

00:20:56.360 that you should not

00:20:57.120 pay attention to them.

00:20:58.840 Okay?

00:20:59.600 This spills over.

00:21:00.920 This spills over

00:21:02.160 into our UFO hearings

00:21:04.900 here in the United States.

00:21:07.240 There are people testifying

00:21:08.640 that they have aliens

00:21:10.000 stockpiled in the back room

00:21:11.440 and the introduction of them,

00:21:15.260 there's a colonel

00:21:16.420 or there's a this

00:21:17.220 and they're a credible witness.

00:21:21.100 No such thing

00:21:22.180 as a credible witness in science.

00:21:23.800 Are you human?

00:21:25.320 That's all we care about.

00:21:27.860 Then I will not count your...

00:21:31.040 I will not trust in your account

00:21:33.920 more than someone else's.

00:21:35.760 What I will trust in

00:21:36.960 is the data brought to you

00:21:39.160 by means that do not flow through

00:21:42.000 the biophysiology of human senses.

00:21:45.820 And so, yeah,

00:21:46.860 I don't care what the pedigree is

00:21:48.080 and that's a problem.

00:21:49.280 Yes, it's a complete problem.

00:21:51.620 Do you have a website

00:21:52.920 or do you plan to have a website?

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00:22:55.360 So Neil,

00:22:56.160 I suppose the question would be

00:22:57.580 in that situation,

00:22:58.520 and I'm not talking about COVID specifically,

00:23:00.140 but if you look at the history of science

00:23:01.600 and you'll know this way better

00:23:03.080 than I do, of course,

00:23:04.460 has there not been a historical role

00:23:06.500 for people who are outliers

00:23:08.200 who come in and go,

00:23:09.720 I've got this crazy idea

00:23:11.260 that perhaps people dismiss initially,

00:23:13.440 but later turns out

00:23:14.480 to have actually been correct?

00:23:15.760 Yeah, the press loves

00:23:16.740 talking about those people.

00:23:18.440 And yes, they exist.

00:23:20.880 They're rare, but they exist.

00:23:22.880 What you don't hear about

00:23:24.120 are the tens of thousands

00:23:26.580 of other people

00:23:27.520 who had crazy ideas

00:23:28.640 who were just crazy.

00:23:30.060 Right, right, right, right.

00:23:32.220 There are no books about them

00:23:33.800 overcoming the resistance

00:23:35.420 of the establishment.

00:23:37.440 Nobody writes about them

00:23:39.000 because they were just plumb wrong, okay?

00:23:42.340 So the one person

00:23:44.400 who is right against an establishment

00:23:45.980 is one in, I would say, 10,000.

00:23:49.660 And that's not enough

00:23:50.580 to put all your piggy bank

00:23:54.260 on the YouTube video

00:23:55.560 of that one person

00:23:56.660 thinking they're the one

00:23:57.700 in the 10,000.

00:23:59.000 Completely agreed.

00:23:59.820 So I guess the next question,

00:24:01.460 logically, is what do we do

00:24:02.980 with those people

00:24:04.040 who, to use your terminology,

00:24:06.600 are plumb wrong?

00:24:08.380 Because we saw during the pandemic

00:24:11.260 these people were demonetized.

00:24:13.320 They had their channels canceled.

00:24:14.840 They were shadow banned

00:24:15.920 and all of this kind of stuff.

00:24:17.660 Now, from a layman's point of view,

00:24:19.900 I don't think that is a good way

00:24:21.300 of dealing with that

00:24:22.320 because what you do

00:24:23.440 is you give these people

00:24:25.380 a glamour they perhaps

00:24:26.980 don't deserve

00:24:27.920 or they don't deserve

00:24:29.100 because you effectively say

00:24:31.560 their voice is so dangerous.

00:24:33.120 They can't be, you know,

00:24:34.120 they must be silenced.

00:24:35.400 So that's an extremely important point.

00:24:39.040 I just have a different answer

00:24:40.440 than what you're looking for.

00:24:41.680 I think it's a matter of free speech.

00:24:44.260 And if there are risks

00:24:46.460 in a world of free speech

00:24:48.420 that there could be people

00:24:50.220 who are dangerous

00:24:51.780 because they create instability

00:24:53.380 in a system

00:24:54.140 or because they lead people

00:24:59.200 on a track

00:25:00.140 that may be impossible

00:25:02.540 to reverse,

00:25:04.320 you look at Hitler

00:25:04.980 in 1930s Germany,

00:25:07.240 for example,

00:25:08.200 it required all-out war

00:25:09.920 to sort of correct

00:25:11.440 the attitudes and feelings

00:25:14.000 that Germans had

00:25:14.680 about themselves

00:25:15.300 relative to the world

00:25:16.420 at that time.

00:25:18.120 So there's a risk

00:25:19.400 when you have a free society.

00:25:21.920 For me, as an educator,

00:25:23.260 the antidote

00:25:24.120 is the education

00:25:26.340 of how to listen to people.

00:25:27.960 So you nip that in the bud

00:25:32.120 from the beginning.

00:25:33.840 So if someone is speaking

00:25:35.520 highly charismatically

00:25:36.760 about something

00:25:37.600 that's completely opposite

00:25:38.680 what a mainstream view is,

00:25:40.620 I will approach them

00:25:41.880 with skepticism,

00:25:42.920 no matter how charismatic they are.

00:25:46.600 Because I will know

00:25:48.040 that only one in 10,000 of them

00:25:51.000 will ever be correct at this.

00:25:53.820 And no, we don't give courses

00:25:55.200 on the 10,000 people

00:25:56.440 that were wrong.

00:25:57.180 No, we don't.

00:25:58.920 That's a waste

00:25:59.460 of everybody's time.

00:26:01.500 So, for some reason

00:26:03.320 over recent years

00:26:04.820 the word establishment

00:26:06.280 has become a bad word.

00:26:08.580 I represent the establishment.

00:26:10.400 Oh, well you must be wrong then.

00:26:12.540 No, that's not how it works.

00:26:13.780 It's not how it's ever worked.

00:26:15.580 So I'm not saying

00:26:16.840 you should always

00:26:18.340 believe the establishment.

00:26:20.500 What I'm saying is

00:26:21.880 if you want to believe someone

00:26:23.760 who is against the establishment,

00:26:25.320 you should do a little more homework

00:26:29.400 before you go that way.

00:26:32.340 And the homework

00:26:33.180 isn't only listening

00:26:34.300 to what they are telling you.

00:26:35.920 It's looking into the establishment

00:26:37.460 and find out why

00:26:38.240 there's an establishment view

00:26:39.960 to begin with.

00:26:40.920 And the establishment view

00:26:41.880 is not from authorities on high.

00:26:44.880 No, it's the consensus

00:26:46.220 of research conducted

00:26:47.640 by hardworking scientists

00:26:48.960 in a lab whose name

00:26:50.480 you've never heard of.

00:26:51.380 It's a very profound point.

00:26:54.680 But moving on,

00:26:56.060 you must be really excited

00:26:58.120 at the moment.

00:26:59.580 For instance,

00:27:00.240 when we look at things

00:27:00.940 like space travel,

00:27:01.900 when we're looking at

00:27:02.940 the achievements of India

00:27:04.240 landing on the moon,

00:27:05.720 if we look at SpaceX,

00:27:07.800 it's a really exciting time,

00:27:09.580 isn't it,

00:27:09.820 to be an astrophysicist

00:27:10.900 in particular?

00:27:11.400 So I have two answers.

00:27:13.740 The first answer is yes.

00:27:15.500 And I look forward to space

00:27:17.420 becoming our backyard,

00:27:19.100 which the space tourism,

00:27:21.020 you know,

00:27:21.220 we're witnessing the birth

00:27:22.240 of an entire industry.

00:27:24.600 A new, you know,

00:27:25.700 it'd be fun

00:27:27.460 if it stayed healthy

00:27:28.680 or continued,

00:27:30.000 you know,

00:27:30.200 there'll be fits and starts,

00:27:31.140 of course.

00:27:32.220 But I'd enjoy

00:27:34.480 taking a space vacation

00:27:35.780 one day.

00:27:37.300 And if you are concerned

00:27:39.700 about its expense,

00:27:40.540 maybe the expense

00:27:41.220 will come down.

00:27:42.360 It did with cell phones.

00:27:44.140 For example,

00:27:44.680 you may remember

00:27:45.280 the film Wall Street,

00:27:47.160 1987,

00:27:48.120 and there's Michael,

00:27:49.260 Michael Douglas.

00:27:51.680 Right.

00:27:52.140 He's on the beach

00:27:53.000 in the Hamptons,

00:27:54.000 a wealthy part of New York.

00:27:56.100 And he has a shoulder-mounted

00:27:57.840 cell phone.

00:27:59.840 I remember,

00:28:01.560 just how old I am,

00:28:02.420 I remember looking at that

00:28:03.500 and saying,

00:28:04.080 wow,

00:28:04.680 I wish I was rich.

00:28:05.820 So I had a phone like that.

00:28:09.100 And so,

00:28:10.360 industries become

00:28:13.160 truly healthy

00:28:14.600 and,

00:28:15.820 and,

00:28:16.560 and,

00:28:17.280 when,

00:28:20.300 and the people

00:28:21.040 who make the products

00:28:22.380 become wealthy

00:28:23.640 when they commoditize it.

00:28:25.940 If you only sell items

00:28:27.680 to rich people,

00:28:28.720 okay,

00:28:29.180 I guess you can make

00:28:29.840 a living off of it,

00:28:30.560 but you don't transform

00:28:31.300 the world doing that.

00:28:33.480 When this,

00:28:34.440 when that became

00:28:35.280 a cell phone

00:28:35.860 that we all carried

00:28:36.680 and then,

00:28:37.260 of course,

00:28:37.480 a smartphone,

00:28:38.380 there's six billion

00:28:39.440 smartphones in the world today,

00:28:41.260 now you have

00:28:41.940 a commoditized item.

00:28:44.400 So,

00:28:44.840 perhaps one day

00:28:45.920 space travel

00:28:46.800 will become that.

00:28:47.520 I don't know.

00:28:48.440 But,

00:28:48.900 the day it does,

00:28:49.720 I would look forward to that.

00:28:51.320 So,

00:28:52.060 that's my second answer

00:28:52.960 to you is,

00:28:54.460 and I devote an entire

00:28:55.840 chapter on this idea

00:28:57.500 in the book,

00:28:58.840 it's called

00:28:59.180 Exploration and Discovery.

00:29:00.500 In the last

00:29:01.760 150 years or so,

00:29:03.900 we have been

00:29:04.480 experiencing

00:29:05.720 an exponential growth

00:29:07.580 in science

00:29:08.840 and technology.

00:29:10.240 So,

00:29:11.140 I'll take your comment,

00:29:12.760 I'll go back

00:29:13.380 to the year 1900

00:29:15.620 and offer you

00:29:17.000 a corresponding comment

00:29:18.640 uttered by someone

00:29:19.880 in that year.

00:29:21.200 Okay?

00:29:21.920 The head of the

00:29:22.440 New York Central Railroad

00:29:23.620 when asked,

00:29:24.500 what would life be like

00:29:25.380 in the year 2000?

00:29:27.020 Because people do that

00:29:28.020 when you hit these

00:29:29.020 time milestones,

00:29:30.500 right?

00:29:30.960 1900,

00:29:31.700 2000.

00:29:33.080 And,

00:29:33.720 he'd seen

00:29:34.440 steamships

00:29:35.140 cross the ocean,

00:29:36.420 the railroads

00:29:37.420 crossing the nation,

00:29:38.820 blimps.

00:29:40.160 And,

00:29:40.800 he says,

00:29:41.300 I can scarcely imagine

00:29:43.160 that advances

00:29:44.020 in transportation

00:29:46.240 in the 20th century

00:29:47.900 will be as great

00:29:49.740 as those were

00:29:50.700 in the 19th.

00:29:53.040 That has to be

00:29:54.000 the most boneheaded

00:29:55.040 comment ever made.

00:29:56.360 He's thinking

00:29:57.420 he's living

00:29:58.040 in special times.

00:30:01.020 When you're on

00:30:02.320 an exponential

00:30:02.920 growth curve,

00:30:04.460 the title of your show

00:30:05.620 is Trigonometry,

00:30:06.860 so I'm going to put

00:30:07.300 in some math.

00:30:08.300 When you're on

00:30:08.960 an exponential

00:30:09.620 growth curve,

00:30:10.900 it looks like

00:30:12.100 all the greatest

00:30:13.280 results

00:30:13.960 happened just

00:30:15.180 in your recent years.

00:30:17.120 What you don't know

00:30:18.500 is,

00:30:19.400 everywhere on

00:30:20.280 an exponential growth

00:30:21.200 feels like that.

00:30:23.100 If it was 1960,

00:30:25.620 you'd be saying,

00:30:26.060 what a time

00:30:27.020 to be alive.

00:30:27.680 We just,

00:30:28.240 we broke the

00:30:29.140 sound barrier.

00:30:30.260 We have

00:30:30.780 satellites in orbit

00:30:32.900 around the earth.

00:30:33.880 We left earth.

00:30:34.820 Oh my gosh.

00:30:36.860 That's what you'd be

00:30:37.760 saying then.

00:30:38.660 So no,

00:30:39.340 I'm not going to say,

00:30:40.340 what a time

00:30:41.160 to be alive.

00:30:43.000 Because anytime

00:30:43.880 in the last

00:30:44.500 150 years,

00:30:45.500 I could say

00:30:46.020 exactly the same

00:30:47.080 damn thing.

00:30:48.720 After a sentence

00:30:49.620 that you would utter,

00:30:50.800 after you shared

00:30:51.560 with me

00:30:52.000 what had just

00:30:52.760 been discovered.

00:30:53.320 And why is it

00:30:54.920 so important

00:30:55.560 that we go out

00:30:56.580 and we discover space?

00:30:57.920 Why is that important

00:30:58.760 to the human race?

00:30:59.780 I'm not telling you,

00:31:00.580 I said,

00:31:00.940 I'm not going to judge

00:31:01.980 what you should think

00:31:03.000 is important.

00:31:03.760 What I'll tell you is,

00:31:05.900 don't you kind of

00:31:06.880 want to know

00:31:08.100 if an asteroid

00:31:08.960 is coming?

00:31:10.320 I'm just thinking,

00:31:12.380 you know,

00:31:12.940 I'm betting

00:31:13.440 that if the dinosaurs

00:31:14.920 had a space program,

00:31:16.560 they'd still be here

00:31:17.540 because they would have

00:31:18.080 deflected that asteroid

00:31:19.320 that took them out

00:31:20.560 65 million years ago.

00:31:22.780 And haven't you ever

00:31:23.840 walked out at night

00:31:25.320 and looked up?

00:31:26.580 I know the UK,

00:31:27.780 you have a lot of clouds

00:31:28.740 and things,

00:31:29.400 but in places

00:31:30.540 that are perennially clear,

00:31:32.380 the Middle East,

00:31:33.400 any desert area,

00:31:35.800 the outback of Australia,

00:31:37.200 you look up

00:31:37.960 and you wonder,

00:31:39.280 what is all of that?

00:31:41.420 Where did I come from?

00:31:43.100 Where is it all going?

00:31:45.280 These are deep,

00:31:46.500 profound questions.

00:31:47.680 If you don't happen

00:31:48.600 to have those questions,

00:31:49.820 no one is going

00:31:51.360 to force them on you.

00:31:52.580 But those who do

00:31:54.140 will push themselves

00:31:57.920 into new realms of thought,

00:32:00.240 into discoveries

00:32:01.540 that would have previously

00:32:03.480 been inaccessible

00:32:04.720 because the answers

00:32:06.940 to my questions

00:32:07.980 require that I innovate

00:32:09.300 in ways that bring

00:32:10.860 new discoveries

00:32:11.540 to civilization.

00:32:12.900 So if you were around

00:32:13.880 30,000 years ago

00:32:15.300 and were huddled

00:32:16.080 in a cave

00:32:16.760 and the young'uns say,

00:32:19.840 oh, you're the wise elder,

00:32:22.140 right?

00:32:22.680 And you'd say,

00:32:23.680 oh, we want to,

00:32:24.480 the young'uns come up

00:32:25.180 to you and say,

00:32:25.380 we want to,

00:32:25.960 we took a peek

00:32:26.720 outside the cave door.

00:32:28.000 It was left ajar.

00:32:29.440 The cave doors have hinges,

00:32:30.560 probably not,

00:32:31.460 but it was left ajar

00:32:32.600 and we see like hills

00:32:34.100 and mountains

00:32:34.720 and valleys

00:32:35.260 and trees

00:32:36.180 with these round things

00:32:37.440 on it.

00:32:37.620 You wouldn't have had

00:32:38.040 a word for fruit yet.

00:32:39.360 These round things,

00:32:40.140 we want to go explore.

00:32:42.520 But you're the wise elder

00:32:44.060 of the cave.

00:32:44.500 No,

00:32:45.380 we have to solve

00:32:46.780 the cave problems first

00:32:48.340 before anyone

00:32:49.660 leaves the cave.

00:32:51.620 That's what you sound

00:32:52.640 like to me

00:32:53.300 when you say,

00:32:54.680 why are we

00:32:55.420 looking out into space?

00:32:58.180 I'm just delighted

00:32:59.240 that you called me

00:32:59.980 a wise elder now.

00:33:00.900 I'm going to be honest.

00:33:02.140 You're a shitty wise elder

00:33:03.540 that I think was the point

00:33:04.520 of that story.

00:33:05.360 You weren't a very good one.

00:33:06.480 You'd help him out there.

00:33:07.860 You're a very dumb wise elder

00:33:09.680 who restricts human growth

00:33:11.000 but Neil,

00:33:13.540 I'm curious.

00:33:14.120 So we had Eric Weinstein

00:33:15.400 on the show recently

00:33:17.600 and one of the things

00:33:18.400 that he talked about,

00:33:19.400 obviously if Einstein is right,

00:33:21.100 our ability to explore space

00:33:22.720 is very, very limited,

00:33:23.880 at least in physical capacity.

00:33:25.860 What do you see

00:33:28.480 when you look into the future?

00:33:29.840 Are we going to go to Mars?

00:33:31.280 Are we going to try

00:33:32.160 and go beyond?

00:33:33.200 Is that on the menu for us?

00:33:35.180 I don't see.

00:33:36.700 What was his biggest objection

00:33:37.860 to exploring space?

00:33:39.320 Well, with chemical rockets,

00:33:40.400 you can only go so far with.

00:33:41.940 Yeah, so with chemical rockets,

00:33:43.120 you can get to the planets,

00:33:44.760 surely.

00:33:45.580 You can get to the outer planets.

00:33:47.100 It would take a couple of decades.

00:33:49.000 So if we start living

00:33:51.060 a little longer,

00:33:51.760 let's say we start living

00:33:52.840 to 150,

00:33:54.180 then that's not entirely

00:33:55.860 out of reach

00:33:56.820 given the recent advances

00:33:58.540 in medicine.

00:34:00.860 You could,

00:34:01.620 we would certainly visit

00:34:02.500 the moon, Mars,

00:34:03.960 and Venus is too hot,

00:34:05.780 but the moons of Jupiter

00:34:07.060 and Saturn,

00:34:07.880 maybe.

00:34:08.760 You can do that

00:34:09.500 in a lifetime.

00:34:10.580 But beyond the solar system,

00:34:12.360 no.

00:34:12.740 It is hopelessly far away.

00:34:14.480 Correct.

00:34:15.200 It is the fastest spaceship

00:34:17.380 we've ever launched,

00:34:18.500 which didn't have humans on it,

00:34:20.780 so you can really punch it.

00:34:22.420 All right?

00:34:23.140 If you aim that

00:34:24.280 to the nearest star,

00:34:25.500 it would take 50,000 years

00:34:27.580 to get there.

00:34:28.660 Wow.

00:34:29.060 So human physiology

00:34:30.240 is hopelessly out of match

00:34:31.920 with traveling among the stars

00:34:34.440 unless we understand wormholes

00:34:38.020 or something that enables transportation

00:34:41.500 that is beyond anybody's vision

00:34:43.340 right now.

00:34:45.260 And is there any progress

00:34:47.040 being made towards that understanding

00:34:49.060 of something like wormholes?

00:34:51.060 No.

00:34:52.360 But for the,

00:34:53.700 yeah, next question.

00:34:55.160 For the time being,

00:34:56.540 we're enjoying,

00:34:57.500 you know,

00:34:57.700 that's the dude's name

00:34:59.280 who opens the portals

00:35:00.960 through Dr. Strange,

00:35:03.440 you know,

00:35:04.020 Rick and Morty,

00:35:04.840 Rick.

00:35:05.780 These are wormholes

00:35:06.920 through space and time.

00:35:08.440 For the moment,

00:35:09.420 we embrace them

00:35:10.860 through our science fiction.

00:35:13.060 But we are hopelessly,

00:35:15.080 to master wormholes,

00:35:16.700 we would need

00:35:17.400 some form of negative gravity,

00:35:21.220 some negative matter

00:35:22.160 that has the opposite of gravity

00:35:25.040 to pry open a wormhole

00:35:27.040 and keep it.

00:35:27.780 So we don't know.

00:35:29.460 We're far away from that.

00:35:30.880 It's not even on the drawing board.

00:35:33.060 And you mentioned

00:35:34.120 the questions

00:35:34.980 that we all have

00:35:35.960 when,

00:35:36.320 well,

00:35:36.460 not all,

00:35:37.080 many of us have

00:35:37.920 when we look up

00:35:38.620 at the night sky

00:35:39.860 and start to get a glimpse

00:35:41.760 of our place

00:35:42.820 in the universe,

00:35:43.780 which is

00:35:44.740 an eye-opening experience

00:35:48.040 for many people

00:35:49.140 even as a kid.

00:35:50.480 And I'm curious

00:35:51.280 what you think.

00:35:52.800 Obviously,

00:35:53.120 you talk about it

00:35:53.780 in the book.

00:35:54.620 What are some

00:35:55.920 of the interesting

00:35:57.460 and important messages

00:35:58.700 that we take,

00:35:59.560 we can take

00:36:00.380 from looking at the world

00:36:02.200 with that cosmic perspective?

00:36:03.760 Yeah,

00:36:03.940 thanks for using

00:36:04.460 the word messages

00:36:05.160 because Starry Messenger,

00:36:07.380 that's the main title

00:36:08.740 of the book.

00:36:09.240 The subtitle is

00:36:10.020 Cosmic Perspectives

00:36:11.940 on Civilization.

00:36:13.580 The first half

00:36:14.820 of that title

00:36:15.320 is taken directly

00:36:16.600 from Galileo.

00:36:17.900 His first book,

00:36:19.100 reporting on

00:36:20.080 what he discovered

00:36:21.220 when he took

00:36:22.440 the freshly invented

00:36:24.020 telescope

00:36:24.560 and put it

00:36:25.760 onto the sky.

00:36:27.880 And to him,

00:36:28.580 these were

00:36:29.000 Starry Messengers.

00:36:30.020 So his first book

00:36:30.840 is Starry Messenger.

00:36:32.560 And so

00:36:34.360 when you learn

00:36:36.220 about what's going on

00:36:36.960 in the universe

00:36:37.560 and then you look back

00:36:38.560 at Earth,

00:36:38.980 it changes you.

00:36:41.100 Right?

00:36:41.420 Let's go back

00:36:41.980 to the Apollo era.

00:36:43.720 Yeah,

00:36:43.920 we went to the moon

00:36:44.820 to explore the moon,

00:36:46.480 but the astronauts

00:36:47.460 look back

00:36:48.260 over their shoulder

00:36:49.120 and they discovered

00:36:51.280 Earth for the first time.

00:36:53.820 Do you realize

00:36:54.400 nearly all

00:36:55.840 the most important

00:36:56.700 legislation passed

00:36:58.060 in the United States

00:36:58.800 and a few years later

00:37:00.120 around the world

00:37:00.840 to protect Earth?

00:37:02.880 Okay?

00:37:03.480 We had a Clean Air Act,

00:37:05.060 a Clean Water Act,

00:37:06.480 a clean,

00:37:07.560 the first Earth Day,

00:37:10.020 all right,

00:37:10.340 was in the United States,

00:37:11.280 then it went around the world.

00:37:12.580 All of that happened

00:37:14.060 while we were going

00:37:15.640 to the moon.

00:37:17.780 Between 1960

00:37:19.100 1968

00:37:19.420 and 1972-73.

00:37:22.880 All of that.

00:37:23.620 Our Environmental Protection Agency

00:37:25.380 was founded.

00:37:26.220 We banned leaded gas

00:37:28.120 over that time.

00:37:29.440 We banned DDT

00:37:30.800 over that time.

00:37:32.380 All of that.

00:37:34.060 Before then,

00:37:34.800 people had concerns

00:37:35.900 about their local environment.

00:37:38.120 You know,

00:37:38.300 if there was a factory

00:37:39.100 polluting your river,

00:37:40.460 you'd try to,

00:37:41.320 you know,

00:37:42.300 you'd try to fix that,

00:37:43.380 the air.

00:37:44.540 But it was local.

00:37:45.680 No one took the step back

00:37:48.480 to think about Earth

00:37:49.660 as a holistic system.

00:37:52.140 That did not happen

00:37:53.460 until the Apollo era.

00:37:55.820 So,

00:37:56.560 people say,

00:37:57.920 why did we spend

00:37:58.580 all that money

00:37:59.200 to send 12 astronauts

00:38:00.600 to the moon?

00:38:01.400 what price would you

00:38:04.440 give

00:38:06.340 to this

00:38:08.180 firmware upgrade

00:38:09.580 that we all felt

00:38:11.520 at that time

00:38:13.720 changing our focus

00:38:15.460 of concern

00:38:16.180 from

00:38:17.480 your neighborhood

00:38:19.280 to the Earth

00:38:20.460 at large?

00:38:22.080 How much is that

00:38:22.960 worth to you?

00:38:24.740 And I say

00:38:25.260 firmware upgrade

00:38:26.240 because there are

00:38:27.220 people around that time,

00:38:28.200 yeah,

00:38:28.380 it's time to fix Earth.

00:38:30.200 Are they actively saying,

00:38:31.620 oh,

00:38:31.680 it's because I saw

00:38:32.420 Earth from the moon?

00:38:33.320 No,

00:38:33.520 they're not going

00:38:33.960 to tell you that.

00:38:35.320 That's why I think

00:38:35.960 it was a firmware upgrade

00:38:37.180 because everybody

00:38:38.260 felt it at the same time.

00:38:40.560 It's such a profound

00:38:41.580 point, Neil,

00:38:42.100 because when I talk

00:38:42.860 to people

00:38:43.460 who are alive

00:38:44.360 during the moon landings,

00:38:46.440 even if they didn't

00:38:47.300 take that from it,

00:38:48.300 they took from it

00:38:49.600 a sense that

00:38:50.220 anything is possible.

00:38:52.240 Ah,

00:38:52.660 so that was one,

00:38:53.500 well,

00:38:53.760 so,

00:38:54.200 very important.

00:38:55.420 Thanks for mentioning that.

00:38:56.700 So,

00:38:57.400 I don't know how old

00:38:57.980 you guys are,

00:38:58.580 but I remember

00:38:59.260 an active rejoinder

00:39:01.500 to the problems

00:39:04.000 of the world was,

00:39:05.100 if we can put a man

00:39:06.000 on the moon,

00:39:06.640 we should be able

00:39:07.200 to feed the population.

00:39:08.860 Okay?

00:39:09.500 So that was

00:39:10.660 the measure

00:39:11.800 of accomplishing

00:39:13.700 something hard.

00:39:15.960 Now,

00:39:16.660 I have an

00:39:17.880 unsatisfactory answer

00:39:19.300 for you,

00:39:20.020 on that.

00:39:21.760 Maybe going

00:39:22.800 to the moon

00:39:23.560 is easier

00:39:26.080 than solving

00:39:27.980 poverty.

00:39:29.700 Have you

00:39:30.280 considered that?

00:39:31.300 Okay.

00:39:31.980 Just because it

00:39:33.020 involves learning

00:39:34.300 that takes place

00:39:35.220 in classes

00:39:35.880 that you didn't take,

00:39:37.320 that other people took,

00:39:38.240 that maybe you judged

00:39:39.120 was hard,

00:39:40.260 maybe social problems

00:39:41.740 are harder

00:39:42.300 than physics problems

00:39:43.900 to solve.

00:39:44.920 Just maybe.

00:39:46.040 Let me put that

00:39:46.900 out there.

00:39:47.320 Well,

00:39:48.680 that's a very

00:39:49.640 interesting point

00:39:50.420 on which to come

00:39:51.140 on to the

00:39:51.980 issues that I said

00:39:53.700 you'd made

00:39:54.120 controversial remarks

00:39:55.200 on.

00:39:55.400 We'll find out

00:39:55.880 how controversial

00:39:56.360 they are.

00:39:57.060 But we

00:39:58.520 recently had

00:39:59.260 Richard Dawkins

00:39:59.980 on the show.

00:40:00.520 everyone now

00:40:03.020 is obsessed

00:40:03.540 with the trans

00:40:04.220 issue.

00:40:04.640 Everyone's

00:40:04.940 talking about it.

00:40:05.760 Everyone gets

00:40:06.100 asked questions

00:40:06.740 about it.

00:40:07.500 And I know

00:40:07.900 you and Richard

00:40:08.500 have sparred.

00:40:09.200 I remember

00:40:09.560 watching a debate

00:40:10.420 between the two

00:40:11.120 of you

00:40:11.400 20 years ago.

00:40:13.120 You're a professor

00:40:14.020 of the public

00:40:14.700 understanding

00:40:15.480 of science,

00:40:16.600 not professor

00:40:17.560 of delivering

00:40:19.180 truth to the

00:40:20.140 public.

00:40:21.160 And these are

00:40:21.840 two different

00:40:22.300 exercises.

00:40:23.760 One of them

00:40:24.120 is you put

00:40:24.800 the truth

00:40:25.140 out there

00:40:25.520 and like you

00:40:25.920 said,

00:40:26.380 they either

00:40:26.640 buy your book

00:40:27.180 or they don't.

00:40:28.320 Well,

00:40:28.480 that's not

00:40:28.920 being an educator.

00:40:30.320 That's just

00:40:31.320 putting it out

00:40:31.900 there.

00:40:32.200 Being an educator

00:40:32.780 is not only

00:40:34.640 getting the truth

00:40:35.160 right,

00:40:35.480 but there's

00:40:36.160 got to be

00:40:36.600 an act of

00:40:37.260 persuasion

00:40:37.940 in there as

00:40:38.640 well.

00:40:39.300 Persuasion

00:40:39.680 isn't always

00:40:40.280 here's the facts,

00:40:41.040 you're either

00:40:41.260 an idiot

00:40:41.600 or you're not.

00:40:43.080 It's here are

00:40:44.260 the facts

00:40:44.640 and here is

00:40:46.220 a sensitivity

00:40:47.460 to your

00:40:48.820 state of mind

00:40:49.820 and it's

00:40:51.000 the facts

00:40:51.460 plus the

00:40:51.980 sensitivity

00:40:52.520 when convolved

00:40:53.820 together

00:40:54.240 creates impact.

00:40:56.120 And I worry

00:40:56.680 that your

00:40:57.760 methods

00:40:58.820 and your

00:40:59.920 how articulately

00:41:04.720 barbed

00:41:05.340 you can be

00:41:06.280 ends up

00:41:08.580 simply being

00:41:10.440 ineffective

00:41:11.020 when you have

00:41:12.200 much more

00:41:12.680 power of

00:41:13.580 influence

00:41:14.100 than what is

00:41:14.900 currently reflected

00:41:15.820 in your output.

00:41:16.700 I gratefully

00:41:17.320 accept the

00:41:18.080 rebuke.

00:41:22.320 Just one

00:41:23.560 anecdote to show

00:41:24.660 that I'm not

00:41:25.260 the worst

00:41:25.680 in this thing.

00:41:26.680 a former

00:41:29.540 and highly

00:41:30.320 successful

00:41:30.840 editor of

00:41:31.700 New Scientist

00:41:32.660 magazine

00:41:33.060 who actually

00:41:33.540 built up

00:41:33.960 New Scientist

00:41:34.480 to great

00:41:34.980 new heights

00:41:35.500 was asked

00:41:36.340 what is your

00:41:36.980 philosophy

00:41:37.500 at New Scientist

00:41:38.780 and he said

00:41:39.340 our philosophy

00:41:40.540 at New Scientist

00:41:41.380 is this

00:41:41.920 science is

00:41:42.980 interesting

00:41:43.500 and if you

00:41:44.320 don't agree

00:41:44.840 you can

00:41:45.180 fuck off.

00:41:45.780 you were

00:41:50.080 rebuking him

00:41:50.940 actually for

00:41:51.620 for not being

00:41:52.340 gentle enough

00:41:53.560 in the way

00:41:53.940 that he

00:41:54.220 communicates

00:41:54.780 science.

00:41:55.320 you know

00:41:55.420 he's

00:41:55.640 Brit trained

00:41:56.380 and a

00:41:56.900 well trained

00:41:57.480 Brit

00:41:57.780 has full

00:41:58.860 access to

00:41:59.580 every word

00:42:00.660 in the

00:42:01.160 dictionary

00:42:01.480 and his

00:42:03.180 sentences come

00:42:03.880 out perfectly

00:42:04.600 barbed when

00:42:06.180 he needs

00:42:06.640 them to be

00:42:07.300 and I

00:42:08.480 chastised him

00:42:09.920 for not

00:42:10.420 having a

00:42:11.480 gentler

00:42:11.840 kindler

00:42:12.480 approach.

00:42:13.660 I remember

00:42:14.060 that.

00:42:14.460 I remember

00:42:15.020 that and

00:42:15.620 I'm pleased

00:42:17.160 to report

00:42:17.700 that I think

00:42:18.180 you would find

00:42:18.660 that Richard

00:42:19.040 is mellowed

00:42:19.740 with age.

00:42:20.880 I could be

00:42:22.000 just age.

00:42:22.620 I don't know

00:42:22.860 if I had

00:42:23.260 any effect

00:42:24.060 on him

00:42:24.380 at all.

00:42:24.840 By the way

00:42:25.160 when I

00:42:25.560 rebuked him

00:42:26.280 then it

00:42:27.500 was the

00:42:27.740 first time

00:42:28.100 I'd ever

00:42:28.400 met him.

00:42:29.340 So I was

00:42:29.780 even a little

00:42:30.240 nervous

00:42:30.560 because he

00:42:30.860 was a hero

00:42:31.280 of mine

00:42:31.800 and I've

00:42:32.120 read his

00:42:32.440 books but

00:42:33.200 I said I

00:42:33.580 gotta put

00:42:34.080 this out

00:42:34.440 there and

00:42:34.920 that was

00:42:35.280 the first time.

00:42:35.940 Yeah well I

00:42:36.620 remember that

00:42:37.200 and now of

00:42:37.780 course Richard

00:42:38.360 has become

00:42:38.880 very,

00:42:40.360 I don't

00:42:41.260 consider it

00:42:41.820 outspoken but

00:42:42.580 he's spoken

00:42:43.180 openly about

00:42:44.020 his views

00:42:44.640 on the

00:42:45.620 trans issue

00:42:46.200 as have

00:42:46.760 you and

00:42:47.720 I was a

00:42:48.100 little bit

00:42:48.500 surprised.

00:42:48.620 I don't have

00:42:48.740 views so much.

00:42:50.220 Let me just

00:42:50.900 clarify.

00:42:51.900 I don't

00:42:53.500 run around

00:42:55.160 with an

00:42:56.520 opinion that

00:42:57.740 I then

00:42:58.060 foist on

00:42:58.580 other people.

00:42:59.780 I have

00:43:00.060 opinions and

00:43:00.520 they're my

00:43:00.840 opinions and

00:43:01.680 I don't

00:43:02.220 care if you

00:43:03.080 have my

00:43:03.480 opinion but

00:43:04.520 if you have

00:43:05.180 an opinion

00:43:05.580 that you're

00:43:06.060 carrying I

00:43:07.480 want as

00:43:08.360 an educator

00:43:08.900 I want it

00:43:09.620 to be as

00:43:10.320 informed as

00:43:11.160 possible before

00:43:12.840 you land on

00:43:14.400 an opinion that

00:43:15.080 you dig your

00:43:15.560 heels in.

00:43:16.840 Absolutely.

00:43:17.440 So this is

00:43:17.820 my I see

00:43:19.000 that as my

00:43:19.400 role as an

00:43:20.020 educator so

00:43:20.560 continue.

00:43:21.280 Quite and the

00:43:21.960 spirit of my

00:43:22.620 question is very

00:43:23.400 much in order to

00:43:24.180 understand this

00:43:24.760 because one of

00:43:25.740 your functions

00:43:26.260 over time has

00:43:27.080 been to

00:43:27.760 communicate

00:43:28.420 scientific

00:43:29.280 knowledge to

00:43:29.940 the public.

00:43:30.600 Yeah.

00:43:30.760 And that's

00:43:31.240 why I was

00:43:31.780 quite surprised

00:43:32.660 to hear you

00:43:33.360 talk about the

00:43:34.540 idea that we

00:43:35.780 all exist on

00:43:36.540 a spectrum

00:43:37.060 where you

00:43:37.940 wake up one

00:43:38.740 day and you

00:43:39.280 feel like you're

00:43:40.020 more female

00:43:40.760 and more male.

00:43:42.860 Apparently the

00:43:44.480 XXXY chromosomes

00:43:46.500 are insufficient

00:43:48.500 because when we

00:43:50.700 wake up in the

00:43:51.700 morning we

00:43:52.960 exaggerate

00:43:54.920 whatever feature

00:43:56.320 we want to

00:43:57.760 portray the

00:43:59.440 gender of

00:44:00.920 our choice.

00:44:01.620 suppose no

00:44:04.400 matter my

00:44:04.900 chromosomes today

00:44:05.720 I feel 80%

00:44:07.220 female, 20%

00:44:09.280 male.

00:44:09.640 I'm going to

00:44:09.920 put on

00:44:10.700 makeup.

00:44:11.320 I'm going to

00:44:11.620 do that.

00:44:12.180 Tomorrow I

00:44:12.920 might feel 80%

00:44:13.900 male.

00:44:14.500 I'll remove the

00:44:15.360 makeup and I'll

00:44:16.140 wear a muscle

00:44:16.840 shirt.

00:44:18.380 Why do you

00:44:19.320 care?

00:44:20.380 Yeah.

00:44:21.320 What business

00:44:22.760 is it of

00:44:23.900 yours to

00:44:25.520 require that

00:44:27.660 I fulfill

00:44:28.680 your inability

00:44:30.960 to think of

00:44:31.740 gender on a

00:44:32.360 spectrum?

00:44:33.080 I hope I'm

00:44:33.680 not misquoting

00:44:34.400 you there.

00:44:34.800 If I am,

00:44:35.280 please correct

00:44:35.840 me.

00:44:36.240 Well, so

00:44:36.880 let me say

00:44:39.340 that it's not

00:44:39.800 a misquote

00:44:40.360 but there's

00:44:40.820 an entire

00:44:41.280 setup before

00:44:42.920 I even

00:44:43.420 utter those

00:44:44.000 words.

00:44:44.620 Oh, I

00:44:44.960 see.

00:44:45.240 Please.

00:44:45.580 That setup

00:44:46.140 exists in

00:44:46.860 the book,

00:44:47.620 by the way.

00:44:48.900 But as you

00:44:50.020 know, it's

00:44:50.920 very easy to

00:44:51.520 clip something

00:44:52.240 and then...

00:44:53.620 Oh, we

00:44:54.100 know.

00:44:54.300 We know.

00:44:54.720 Oh, you

00:44:55.200 know.

00:44:55.420 You heard

00:44:57.340 that this

00:44:57.680 happens?

00:44:58.140 From direct

00:44:58.160 personal

00:44:58.680 experience.

00:44:59.800 So I

00:45:00.240 try my

00:45:00.760 best to

00:45:01.320 have

00:45:01.600 everything

00:45:02.040 I say

00:45:02.540 so self-contained

00:45:04.360 that it's

00:45:05.360 hard to clip

00:45:06.040 it or to

00:45:06.460 misrepresent it.

00:45:06.740 You have to

00:45:07.100 nowadays.

00:45:07.920 So give us

00:45:09.720 the full

00:45:10.140 setup.

00:45:11.720 Because most

00:45:12.920 people growing

00:45:13.680 through the

00:45:14.060 education system

00:45:14.940 10, 15,

00:45:15.720 20 years from

00:45:16.320 now would

00:45:17.040 have been

00:45:17.320 taught in

00:45:17.980 biology classes

00:45:18.800 that there's

00:45:19.340 males and

00:45:19.920 females, men

00:45:20.600 and women.

00:45:21.740 And in

00:45:22.200 very recent

00:45:23.200 times, in the

00:45:24.560 last five

00:45:25.080 years, it

00:45:25.500 feels like

00:45:26.340 this

00:45:27.320 understanding

00:45:28.840 is being

00:45:29.580 challenged by

00:45:30.200 a different

00:45:30.540 view.

00:45:31.340 Explain that

00:45:32.080 to us, if

00:45:32.520 you would.

00:45:34.100 Well, so

00:45:35.420 it's very

00:45:36.160 simple, actually.

00:45:37.560 And like I

00:45:38.040 said, I don't

00:45:38.460 think I'm

00:45:38.880 saying anything

00:45:39.340 controversial

00:45:39.980 here.

00:45:40.900 I'm just

00:45:41.360 offering a

00:45:42.620 perspective you

00:45:43.400 might not

00:45:43.860 have had,

00:45:44.880 which I

00:45:45.580 would like

00:45:46.240 you to

00:45:46.480 have, so

00:45:46.920 that when

00:45:47.240 you assemble

00:45:47.940 all of

00:45:48.520 your thoughts

00:45:49.460 and feelings

00:45:50.160 and leanings,

00:45:51.780 be they

00:45:52.140 cultural,

00:45:52.780 political,

00:45:53.340 religious

00:45:53.880 leanings,

00:45:55.080 that you

00:45:55.440 have all

00:45:55.820 the

00:45:55.960 information

00:45:56.500 available to

00:45:57.780 you before

00:45:58.180 you land.

00:45:59.580 I would

00:46:00.260 claim that

00:46:01.120 for many

00:46:01.580 people's

00:46:02.040 strongly held

00:46:02.820 opinions or

00:46:04.880 views, that

00:46:06.220 when they

00:46:06.940 become more

00:46:07.620 fully informed,

00:46:09.500 that the

00:46:10.800 strength with

00:46:11.620 which they

00:46:11.960 were holding

00:46:12.340 those views

00:46:12.840 tends to

00:46:13.660 fade or

00:46:15.000 evaporate

00:46:15.560 entirely.

00:46:16.580 And these

00:46:17.120 are cosmic

00:46:17.680 perspectives that

00:46:18.880 bring your

00:46:19.340 view above

00:46:20.360 all that

00:46:22.540 divides us.

00:46:24.280 This is the

00:46:24.860 power of a

00:46:25.380 cosmic

00:46:25.660 perspective.

00:46:27.160 All right?

00:46:28.000 And, you

00:46:29.280 know, there

00:46:29.560 you are from

00:46:30.180 space looking

00:46:30.840 at Earth and

00:46:31.240 you don't see

00:46:31.720 any color

00:46:32.480 coded

00:46:32.980 countries.

00:46:35.080 Meanwhile,

00:46:36.260 and I,

00:46:37.420 throughout the

00:46:37.800 book, I

00:46:38.140 imagine what

00:46:38.640 an alien would

00:46:39.300 think who

00:46:39.640 has no

00:46:40.020 preconceived

00:46:40.620 notion of

00:46:41.440 who and

00:46:41.700 what we

00:46:42.020 are.

00:46:42.220 They just

00:46:42.480 observe.

00:46:43.760 And they

00:46:43.900 say, oh,

00:46:44.120 what a

00:46:44.340 beautiful

00:46:44.660 planet.

00:46:45.360 I'll get

00:46:45.740 to your

00:46:46.160 point in a

00:46:46.580 minute, but

00:46:46.880 these are my

00:46:47.280 lead-ups to

00:46:47.880 it.

00:46:48.000 What a

00:46:48.680 beautiful

00:46:48.960 planet.

00:46:49.840 Let's get

00:46:50.400 a closer

00:46:50.880 look.

00:46:51.280 Oh, there's

00:46:51.520 land and

00:46:52.100 oceans and

00:46:53.000 clouds.

00:46:54.420 And then

00:46:54.820 they see

00:46:55.260 one species

00:46:56.200 sort of

00:46:56.780 dominating

00:46:57.300 everywhere on

00:46:58.460 Earth.

00:46:59.500 And it's

00:46:59.820 okay, fine,

00:47:00.480 we got one

00:47:00.900 species.

00:47:01.300 And then

00:47:01.520 they look

00:47:01.760 closer, and

00:47:03.180 then they

00:47:03.420 see that

00:47:03.800 one species

00:47:04.460 killing one

00:47:05.260 another because

00:47:07.280 of who's

00:47:08.000 born on

00:47:08.600 what side of

00:47:09.300 a line in

00:47:09.940 the sand,

00:47:10.500 or who

00:47:11.280 worships this

00:47:12.180 god instead

00:47:12.760 of that god

00:47:13.560 or no gods,

00:47:14.560 or how

00:47:14.940 reflective their

00:47:15.820 skin is to

00:47:16.920 sunlight,

00:47:17.480 or whatever

00:47:18.660 other reasons

00:47:19.780 they come

00:47:20.300 up with.

00:47:21.540 And they're

00:47:22.360 wondering what

00:47:23.280 the fuck is

00:47:24.320 wrong with

00:47:25.440 this species.

00:47:27.000 They're all

00:47:27.260 the same

00:47:27.700 species.

00:47:28.240 And they'd

00:47:28.600 rush back

00:47:29.080 home and

00:47:30.520 tell the

00:47:30.940 rest of

00:47:31.360 their fellow

00:47:31.760 aliens there

00:47:32.360 is no sign

00:47:33.100 of intelligent

00:47:33.720 life on

00:47:34.360 Earth.

00:47:35.180 Okay?

00:47:35.920 This is how

00:47:37.680 I think about

00:47:38.400 all of this.

00:47:39.720 Okay.

00:47:40.520 So,

00:47:41.900 so we

00:47:43.280 look at

00:47:43.660 this whole

00:47:44.200 trans issue.

00:47:44.900 I'm intrigued

00:47:46.660 about how

00:47:47.620 much attention

00:47:48.280 it is

00:47:48.900 getting.

00:47:49.580 Just intrigued

00:47:50.180 by it.

00:47:51.260 And I'm

00:47:52.720 a scientist,

00:47:54.140 I observe,

00:47:55.080 but I'm also

00:47:55.600 observer of

00:47:56.580 people and

00:47:57.260 pop culture

00:47:57.840 and civilization.

00:47:59.860 My father

00:48:00.280 was a

00:48:00.660 sociologist

00:48:01.360 active during

00:48:02.960 the civil

00:48:03.640 rights movement

00:48:04.220 of the

00:48:04.760 1960s

00:48:05.680 into the

00:48:06.580 1970s.

00:48:08.060 I don't

00:48:08.780 know when

00:48:09.040 this will

00:48:09.400 air,

00:48:09.960 but when

00:48:10.920 this will

00:48:11.200 post,

00:48:12.240 but August

00:48:12.900 28th,

00:48:14.680 2023,

00:48:17.700 is the

00:48:19.400 60th

00:48:21.540 anniversary

00:48:22.020 of Martin

00:48:24.060 Luther King's

00:48:24.600 I Have a

00:48:24.940 Dream speech.

00:48:26.560 And that's

00:48:27.640 one of the

00:48:28.600 most popular

00:48:29.140 speeches we

00:48:29.820 know of in

00:48:30.240 the United

00:48:30.520 States,

00:48:30.900 and I bet

00:48:31.320 it has

00:48:31.640 currency

00:48:32.100 elsewhere as

00:48:33.580 well.

00:48:33.700 Oh,

00:48:33.900 massive.

00:48:34.220 Yeah,

00:48:34.500 absolutely.

00:48:35.280 Just because

00:48:35.960 of the

00:48:36.860 message he

00:48:37.400 was communicating

00:48:38.280 and the

00:48:38.760 timing of

00:48:39.400 it and

00:48:40.040 all of

00:48:41.380 the above.

00:48:42.320 I'll have

00:48:42.680 some postings

00:48:43.340 related to

00:48:43.820 that in

00:48:44.160 my media

00:48:44.960 channels.

00:48:46.060 Anyhow,

00:48:46.620 so let's

00:48:46.960 back up.

00:48:49.340 So I

00:48:50.860 don't know

00:48:51.220 all the

00:48:51.600 founding

00:48:51.860 documents of

00:48:52.840 the modern

00:48:53.240 UK,

00:48:54.080 but I do

00:48:54.680 know the

00:48:55.000 ones of

00:48:55.380 the United

00:48:55.720 States.

00:48:56.940 And they

00:48:57.300 include things

00:48:58.220 like the

00:48:58.540 preamble to

00:48:59.500 our,

00:49:00.560 sorry,

00:49:01.680 in our

00:49:02.700 Declaration of

00:49:03.380 Independence,

00:49:04.520 and the

00:49:05.000 preamble to

00:49:05.600 the Constitution,

00:49:06.800 and the

00:49:07.220 Constitution

00:49:07.640 itself.

00:49:08.820 Okay?

00:49:10.040 let me

00:49:12.060 remind you,

00:49:12.640 this was a

00:49:13.080 document to

00:49:14.500 get the

00:49:14.800 hell away

00:49:15.240 from England.

00:49:16.100 Okay?

00:49:16.600 Oh,

00:49:16.920 we remember.

00:49:17.560 Okay,

00:49:17.800 just,

00:49:18.220 I don't

00:49:18.400 know if

00:49:18.580 you remember

00:49:19.000 this.

00:49:19.400 And let

00:49:19.640 me just

00:49:19.860 make it

00:49:20.140 clear that

00:49:21.740 the Constitution

00:49:23.080 begins with

00:49:24.480 the three

00:49:24.840 words,

00:49:25.900 we the

00:49:26.680 people.

00:49:27.780 Okay?

00:49:29.380 We give

00:49:30.440 power to

00:49:31.900 those who

00:49:32.380 govern us,

00:49:33.380 not the

00:49:34.460 genetics of

00:49:36.240 a royal line

00:49:37.560 going back

00:49:38.680 thousands of

00:49:39.320 years.

00:49:39.500 I feel like

00:49:39.800 this is like

00:49:40.420 a direct

00:49:41.020 personal attack

00:49:41.880 for absolutely

00:49:42.740 no reason.

00:49:43.600 Okay,

00:49:43.960 so now

00:49:44.280 what?

00:49:44.700 Okay,

00:49:45.340 so.

00:49:45.680 All we're

00:49:46.080 asking for

00:49:46.700 is a little

00:49:47.100 bit of

00:49:47.400 gratitude

00:49:47.820 for what

00:49:48.860 we did.

00:49:49.640 All right?

00:49:50.120 Is that

00:49:50.360 too much?

00:49:50.880 We set up

00:49:51.480 your country,

00:49:52.340 and this is

00:49:52.740 how you

00:49:53.040 repay us.

00:49:53.460 We gave you

00:49:54.100 the language,

00:49:54.700 woman.

00:49:55.200 Okay.

00:49:55.620 Unbelievable.

00:49:56.260 You ruined

00:49:56.820 the language.

00:49:57.340 You can't even

00:49:57.860 spell properly,

00:49:58.660 and here you

00:49:58.980 are lecturing us

00:49:59.780 about your,

00:50:00.300 anyway,

00:50:00.720 tell us about

00:50:01.220 the transition.

00:50:01.780 So here we

00:50:02.360 go.

00:50:02.480 Are you ready?

00:50:03.240 Okay.

00:50:03.980 So let's look

00:50:06.220 at humans

00:50:06.880 physiologically,

00:50:07.920 and then you

00:50:08.500 have these

00:50:08.820 chromosomes,

00:50:09.540 all right?

00:50:10.260 In most

00:50:11.200 humans,

00:50:12.120 high 90%

00:50:13.060 humans,

00:50:13.700 you're either

00:50:14.140 XX or XY,

00:50:15.920 okay?

00:50:16.280 Chromosomes,

00:50:16.760 and that

00:50:17.640 defines your

00:50:18.620 sex.

00:50:19.280 Are you

00:50:19.820 male or

00:50:20.200 are you

00:50:20.500 female?

00:50:21.120 Okay?

00:50:21.580 So it's a

00:50:22.020 binary biological

00:50:24.880 representation of

00:50:26.880 your sex.

00:50:28.140 Okay?

00:50:28.900 I don't have a

00:50:29.660 problem with

00:50:30.060 that.

00:50:30.760 That's binary.

00:50:32.080 Okay?

00:50:32.380 Okay.

00:50:32.780 All right.

00:50:34.140 So, well,

00:50:36.700 let's ask

00:50:38.340 ourselves some

00:50:38.920 questions.

00:50:39.900 When you see

00:50:41.380 another human

00:50:42.580 being,

00:50:43.760 do you see

00:50:46.160 their chromosomes?

00:50:47.460 It's just an

00:50:47.920 interesting question.

00:50:49.200 How visible

00:50:50.000 are their

00:50:50.460 chromosomes to

00:50:51.300 you?

00:50:51.580 No, you

00:50:51.940 see the

00:50:52.240 phenotype.

00:50:52.780 You don't

00:50:52.980 see their

00:50:53.280 chromosomes.

00:50:53.840 Well, sorry,

00:50:55.220 obviously you

00:50:56.440 don't literally

00:50:57.000 see the

00:50:57.740 chromosomes,

00:50:58.620 but, okay,

00:51:00.200 and let me

00:51:00.820 not use the

00:51:01.400 word phenotype

00:51:02.080 because half

00:51:03.200 the people

00:51:03.540 hear that

00:51:03.960 word don't

00:51:04.340 know what

00:51:04.560 it means,

00:51:04.980 and I'm

00:51:05.220 an educator

00:51:05.820 communicator.

00:51:06.760 So I

00:51:07.380 will say,

00:51:08.380 you see

00:51:09.140 the person

00:51:10.380 who presents

00:51:12.980 themselves to

00:51:13.620 you.

00:51:14.380 That's what

00:51:15.020 you see.

00:51:15.440 in the

00:51:16.780 world.

00:51:17.720 And I

00:51:18.260 did an

00:51:18.600 experiment in

00:51:19.700 the New York

00:51:20.020 City subway.

00:51:20.660 It was winter,

00:51:21.140 so everyone

00:51:21.420 has on a

00:51:21.860 coat,

00:51:22.520 and I

00:51:23.240 looked at

00:51:23.600 everybody from

00:51:24.440 the neck

00:51:24.780 up.

00:51:25.880 Everybody's

00:51:26.420 seated.

00:51:27.220 And by the

00:51:27.920 way,

00:51:28.260 almost all

00:51:28.920 of human

00:51:30.280 height

00:51:30.600 difference is

00:51:31.860 in their

00:51:32.120 legs,

00:51:32.500 not in

00:51:32.860 their torso.

00:51:33.300 So when

00:51:34.940 we're seated,

00:51:35.580 we're all

00:51:35.940 approximately

00:51:36.560 the same

00:51:37.120 height.

00:51:38.000 That's why

00:51:38.680 everyone could

00:51:39.200 just sit at

00:51:39.980 a big old

00:51:40.920 dinner table,

00:51:42.000 and only the

00:51:42.760 children need

00:51:43.540 phone books to

00:51:44.360 sit up.

00:51:45.000 Everybody else

00:51:45.600 doesn't have to

00:51:46.120 adjust their

00:51:46.700 chair height.

00:51:48.540 Okay?

00:51:49.260 So just a

00:51:50.000 little fact.

00:51:50.720 So everyone is

00:51:51.300 about the same

00:51:52.120 height,

00:51:52.760 seated.

00:51:53.660 And I

00:51:54.040 asked myself,

00:51:55.180 can I know

00:51:56.480 who the boys

00:51:57.080 are and who

00:51:57.580 the girls are

00:51:58.300 at a glance?

00:52:00.320 And the

00:52:00.560 answer is

00:52:00.960 yes.

00:52:02.260 And I

00:52:02.740 got it

00:52:02.960 100%

00:52:03.700 correct.

00:52:04.900 Okay?

00:52:06.480 And what

00:52:07.080 do I mean

00:52:07.500 by 100%

00:52:08.500 correct?

00:52:09.680 The girls

00:52:10.460 had certain

00:52:11.100 features

00:52:11.900 manifest to

00:52:13.840 me.

00:52:14.660 On average,

00:52:15.840 girls had

00:52:16.320 longer hair.

00:52:18.220 If they wore

00:52:19.220 jewelry,

00:52:19.940 there was more

00:52:20.520 jewelry.

00:52:21.600 Their jewelry

00:52:22.000 was more

00:52:22.560 expressive.

00:52:23.680 More earrings,

00:52:24.840 more finger

00:52:25.500 rings.

00:52:26.880 Their facial

00:52:28.420 hair,

00:52:28.860 was more

00:52:30.240 likely to

00:52:31.080 be tweezed.

00:52:32.340 The eyebrows

00:52:33.020 are trimmed.

00:52:34.080 There's no

00:52:34.480 hair between

00:52:35.080 the eyebrows.

00:52:36.240 Any mustache

00:52:37.200 hair was

00:52:38.360 removed.

00:52:39.280 They're more

00:52:39.660 likely to

00:52:40.400 wear makeup,

00:52:42.300 especially

00:52:43.060 around the

00:52:44.160 eyes.

00:52:45.780 Mascara,

00:52:47.220 eyeliner,

00:52:48.400 eyeshadow.

00:52:49.520 They were

00:52:49.820 more likely

00:52:50.360 to wear

00:52:51.060 the red

00:52:52.100 rouge,

00:52:53.940 or whatever

00:52:54.400 there's too,

00:52:55.440 blush,

00:52:56.020 or whatever

00:52:56.280 it's called.

00:52:56.680 More likely

00:52:57.380 to wear that.

00:52:58.340 They were

00:52:59.060 more likely

00:52:59.620 to have

00:53:00.240 fingernails

00:53:01.320 painted.

00:53:02.420 Okay?

00:53:03.520 Okay.

00:53:04.560 That's how I

00:53:05.460 knew.

00:53:05.800 By the way,

00:53:06.260 there are some

00:53:06.780 boys who have

00:53:07.680 these features,

00:53:08.540 but by and

00:53:09.720 large,

00:53:10.260 this was

00:53:10.740 unmistakable

00:53:11.720 that those

00:53:12.680 were the

00:53:12.960 girls.

00:53:13.480 Now,

00:53:13.800 how about

00:53:14.040 the boys?

00:53:14.820 Okay.

00:53:15.540 Well,

00:53:16.500 other than

00:53:17.200 the male

00:53:17.880 pattern

00:53:18.500 baldness,

00:53:19.860 on older

00:53:20.480 men,

00:53:20.960 or facial

00:53:23.440 hair,

00:53:24.140 the beard

00:53:24.520 and the

00:53:24.800 mustache,

00:53:25.900 could I

00:53:27.280 tell that

00:53:28.540 they were

00:53:28.880 guys?

00:53:30.340 Oh,

00:53:30.620 by the way,

00:53:31.140 and for

00:53:31.620 all the

00:53:31.880 girls,

00:53:32.680 there was

00:53:33.100 clothing that

00:53:33.740 they wore

00:53:34.180 that was

00:53:34.660 clearly acquired

00:53:36.180 in the women's

00:53:37.700 section of the

00:53:38.240 store.

00:53:38.720 How about

00:53:39.000 the guys?

00:53:40.320 Yeah,

00:53:40.540 oh,

00:53:40.680 oh,

00:53:40.860 oh,

00:53:41.180 oh,

00:53:41.580 oh,

00:53:42.260 get to it.

00:53:43.120 So now

00:53:43.600 with the

00:53:43.840 guys,

00:53:44.240 oh,

00:53:44.600 yeah,

00:53:45.440 yeah,

00:53:45.840 okay,

00:53:46.800 the guys

00:53:47.200 wore less

00:53:47.720 jewelry.

00:53:48.400 Their hair

00:53:48.780 was,

00:53:49.340 on average,

00:53:50.160 short.

00:53:50.980 Okay,

00:53:51.460 they were

00:53:51.720 less likely

00:53:52.500 to wear

00:53:53.040 facial makeup.

00:53:54.660 Their clothing

00:53:55.520 was completely

00:53:56.480 different.

00:53:57.700 And,

00:53:58.340 for many of

00:53:59.300 them,

00:54:00.140 this very

00:54:00.680 city to city,

00:54:01.660 many of

00:54:02.000 them had

00:54:02.680 muscles.

00:54:04.320 Well,

00:54:04.680 those aren't

00:54:05.100 natural.

00:54:05.680 They had to

00:54:06.080 go to a

00:54:06.540 gym to

00:54:07.020 get the

00:54:07.400 muscles.

00:54:08.540 Okay,

00:54:09.160 here's my

00:54:09.660 point.

00:54:11.420 One

00:54:11.860 hundred

00:54:12.380 percent

00:54:12.900 of what

00:54:14.320 I was

00:54:14.700 queuing

00:54:15.140 on

00:54:15.460 was

00:54:17.720 secondary

00:54:18.300 and

00:54:18.920 tertiary

00:54:19.880 accoutrements

00:54:20.860 to what

00:54:22.620 you look

00:54:23.060 like when

00:54:23.460 you wake

00:54:23.880 up in

00:54:24.140 the morning.

00:54:25.940 You chose

00:54:26.780 to grow

00:54:27.160 your hair

00:54:27.520 long.

00:54:28.060 You chose

00:54:28.520 to tweeze

00:54:29.000 your eyebrows.

00:54:29.900 You chose

00:54:30.340 to go to

00:54:30.760 the gym

00:54:32.540 so you have

00:54:33.040 bigger muscles.

00:54:33.840 If the

00:54:34.100 women,

00:54:34.540 the breasts

00:54:34.960 are not

00:54:35.280 large enough,

00:54:36.280 wear a

00:54:36.920 push-up

00:54:37.280 bra.

00:54:37.760 Those are

00:54:38.220 for sale

00:54:38.700 for you.

00:54:39.540 If that

00:54:39.840 doesn't

00:54:40.180 work,

00:54:40.700 go get

00:54:41.240 surgery

00:54:41.880 as

00:54:42.480 two

00:54:42.900 hundred

00:54:43.540 thousand

00:54:44.560 women

00:54:45.300 a year

00:54:46.180 in the

00:54:46.880 United

00:54:47.140 States

00:54:47.620 get.

00:54:48.820 Breast

00:54:49.340 augmentation

00:54:50.200 surgery

00:54:51.180 so that

00:54:52.500 they can

00:54:53.060 be

00:54:53.800 female

00:54:54.460 for you.

00:54:56.520 Okay,

00:54:57.180 so here's

00:54:58.060 my point.

00:54:59.740 We have,

00:55:00.400 oh,

00:55:00.640 and like I

00:55:01.200 said,

00:55:01.500 the clothing,

00:55:02.220 get your

00:55:02.540 clothing in

00:55:03.120 the girls

00:55:03.440 section

00:55:03.760 because they

00:55:04.220 know how

00:55:04.680 to dress

00:55:05.060 you.

00:55:05.340 And get

00:55:05.640 your clothing

00:55:06.120 in the boys

00:55:06.640 section

00:55:06.940 because they

00:55:07.440 know how

00:55:07.900 to dress

00:55:08.260 you.

00:55:08.520 And by

00:55:10.240 the way,

00:55:10.980 hair removal

00:55:11.800 is way

00:55:12.920 more efficient

00:55:13.560 today than

00:55:14.060 when I was

00:55:14.480 growing up.

00:55:15.480 It was not

00:55:16.100 uncommon to

00:55:16.600 see a woman

00:55:17.060 with a

00:55:17.380 mustache trying

00:55:18.500 to bleach

00:55:18.980 it or trying

00:55:19.640 to tweeze

00:55:20.100 it.

00:55:20.500 Now it's

00:55:21.020 gone because

00:55:22.140 women are

00:55:22.500 not supposed

00:55:22.940 to have

00:55:23.280 hair.

00:55:23.820 We all

00:55:24.100 know this.

00:55:24.780 Guys are

00:55:25.100 hairy and

00:55:25.700 women are

00:55:26.020 not hairy.

00:55:26.800 Okay,

00:55:27.480 this

00:55:27.980 understanding

00:55:29.160 of gender

00:55:30.420 has been

00:55:31.260 built into

00:55:32.160 the beauty

00:55:32.820 industrial

00:55:33.500 complex.

00:55:35.120 So,

00:55:36.040 my only

00:55:37.040 point

00:55:37.520 was that

00:55:39.340 if who

00:55:40.440 you decide

00:55:41.100 is male

00:55:41.580 and female

00:55:42.180 in the

00:55:43.920 street

00:55:44.300 is a

00:55:46.100 construct

00:55:46.900 of

00:55:47.940 style

00:55:50.200 and

00:55:51.720 trends

00:55:52.800 and

00:55:54.280 what the

00:55:55.180 beauty

00:55:55.740 industrial

00:55:56.420 complex

00:55:57.060 wants you

00:55:57.980 to see,

00:55:59.200 if that's

00:56:00.280 how we

00:56:00.900 establish

00:56:01.400 gender,

00:56:02.540 then maybe

00:56:04.080 some people

00:56:04.920 want to be

00:56:05.820 fluid within

00:56:06.740 that gender.

00:56:07.520 identify.

00:56:09.360 So,

00:56:09.840 they'll wear

00:56:10.660 a skirt

00:56:11.160 but maybe

00:56:11.800 have a beard

00:56:12.560 or they'll

00:56:13.400 mix and match

00:56:14.860 that in

00:56:15.240 whatever way

00:56:15.740 you want.

00:56:16.220 Hold on,

00:56:16.660 hold on.

00:56:17.060 I'm not,

00:56:17.380 wait,

00:56:17.620 I'm almost

00:56:18.100 done.

00:56:18.660 I'm almost

00:56:18.980 done.

00:56:19.980 So,

00:56:20.360 if a person

00:56:22.000 using the

00:56:23.400 tools of the

00:56:24.240 beauty

00:56:24.460 industrial complex

00:56:25.500 wants to

00:56:26.460 mix and

00:56:26.860 match this

00:56:27.620 and they

00:56:29.920 are expressing

00:56:30.680 their freedom

00:56:32.740 in a free

00:56:34.260 country to

00:56:34.960 do so,

00:56:36.120 why is

00:56:38.440 your job

00:56:39.760 to tell

00:56:40.360 them not

00:56:41.040 to?

00:56:42.080 Okay.

00:56:42.560 That's my

00:56:42.980 only point.

00:56:44.180 And so,

00:56:44.620 I'm speaking

00:56:45.620 of gender

00:56:46.300 expression

00:56:47.160 and the

00:56:48.340 freedom to

00:56:49.060 do so.

00:56:50.460 And if you

00:56:51.020 want to

00:56:52.440 restrict that,

00:56:54.480 then what

00:56:54.820 country are

00:56:55.660 you reliving

00:56:56.220 it?

00:56:57.020 Hold on.

00:56:57.660 So,

00:56:57.960 first of all,

00:56:58.780 I don't know

00:56:59.240 a single

00:56:59.580 person,

00:57:00.420 and we've

00:57:01.380 talked to

00:57:01.760 trans people

00:57:02.420 on the show,

00:57:02.960 we have

00:57:03.260 trans employees

00:57:04.120 at Trigonometry,

00:57:05.840 we've spoken to

00:57:07.660 all sorts of

00:57:08.160 people about

00:57:08.600 this issue.

00:57:08.980 I do not

00:57:09.360 know a single

00:57:09.960 person who

00:57:10.880 wants to

00:57:11.340 prevent people

00:57:12.020 from dressing

00:57:12.740 how they

00:57:13.260 want or

00:57:14.260 behaving how

00:57:14.980 they want

00:57:15.460 or choosing

00:57:16.000 any name

00:57:16.660 that they

00:57:16.940 want.

00:57:17.680 However,

00:57:18.480 the problem

00:57:18.980 is...

00:57:19.300 But you

00:57:20.480 know such

00:57:20.960 people are

00:57:21.340 out there.

00:57:22.340 I'm sure

00:57:22.820 such people

00:57:23.460 exist in the

00:57:24.180 same way that

00:57:24.740 there are

00:57:25.080 people who

00:57:25.560 believe

00:57:26.040 that the

00:57:26.820 earth is

00:57:27.160 flat and

00:57:27.720 so on,

00:57:28.120 but they're

00:57:28.580 a tiny

00:57:29.080 minority.

00:57:29.660 They exist.

00:57:30.180 I don't know

00:57:30.700 how tiny

00:57:31.100 they are,

00:57:31.880 given the

00:57:32.380 dialogue today,

00:57:33.020 but go on.

00:57:33.700 Fair point.

00:57:34.520 However,

00:57:35.040 what I would

00:57:35.480 say is that

00:57:36.340 the conversation

00:57:37.360 in the public

00:57:38.640 consciousness

00:57:39.180 has become

00:57:39.760 prominent not

00:57:40.640 between people

00:57:41.860 who want to

00:57:42.680 defend the

00:57:43.200 right of

00:57:43.520 anyone to

00:57:43.980 dress how

00:57:44.400 they want

00:57:44.800 and the

00:57:45.380 people who

00:57:45.740 want to

00:57:46.060 prevent that.

00:57:46.840 The reason

00:57:47.260 the conversation

00:57:47.940 has become

00:57:48.360 an issue

00:57:48.760 is that we

00:57:50.120 assign and

00:57:51.400 allow certain

00:57:52.360 privileges to

00:57:53.200 people based

00:57:53.820 on their

00:57:54.200 sex.

00:57:54.920 If you are

00:57:55.640 female, you

00:57:56.940 get to go to

00:57:57.800 places that

00:57:58.460 only other

00:57:59.280 females are

00:58:00.120 in, like

00:58:00.920 changing rooms

00:58:01.700 and toilets

00:58:02.240 and so on.

00:58:03.220 If you are

00:58:03.860 female, you

00:58:05.040 get to compete

00:58:06.080 only with people

00:58:07.140 of your sex

00:58:08.140 because females

00:58:09.460 are at a

00:58:10.660 disadvantage in

00:58:11.500 physical competition

00:58:12.400 to males in

00:58:13.680 almost every

00:58:14.360 sport.

00:58:15.020 In other

00:58:15.360 words, we

00:58:16.000 carve out

00:58:16.840 certain areas

00:58:17.740 where your

00:58:18.560 sex matters

00:58:19.700 tremendously, even

00:58:21.420 though we may

00:58:22.420 respect your

00:58:23.140 right everywhere

00:58:24.060 else to

00:58:24.780 believe that

00:58:25.560 you are

00:58:25.900 whatever you

00:58:26.420 are, to

00:58:26.800 dress however

00:58:27.320 you are, etc.

00:58:28.500 So your

00:58:29.300 claim that

00:58:30.500 today you

00:58:31.220 woke up and

00:58:31.880 put lipstick

00:58:32.400 on and

00:58:33.200 grew your

00:58:34.780 hair out

00:58:35.240 long and

00:58:35.740 tweezed out

00:58:36.320 your mustache

00:58:36.840 and whatever,

00:58:37.700 and therefore

00:58:38.280 you are female,

00:58:39.560 has an impact

00:58:40.440 on other people

00:58:41.200 in certain

00:58:41.980 contexts in

00:58:42.680 which that is

00:58:43.540 a problem.

00:58:44.180 You gave only

00:58:44.720 two contexts.

00:58:45.540 Do you have

00:58:45.800 others?

00:58:46.100 Sorry, I

00:58:46.460 wasn't finished.

00:58:47.360 In those

00:58:49.360 contexts, it is

00:58:50.640 essential, people

00:58:51.760 would argue, to

00:58:52.580 protect women

00:58:53.260 from unfair

00:58:53.880 competition and

00:58:55.120 from various

00:58:56.200 risks for which

00:58:57.420 female-only

00:58:58.420 spaces already

00:58:59.560 exist.

00:59:00.300 That's why people

00:59:01.160 are having this

00:59:01.700 conversation.

00:59:02.260 It's not out of

00:59:03.000 bigotry.

00:59:03.300 Do you have

00:59:03.600 more than those

00:59:04.260 two examples?

00:59:05.040 And I'll address

00:59:05.540 each of those in

00:59:06.200 turn.

00:59:06.680 But do you have

00:59:07.080 more than those

00:59:07.660 two?

00:59:08.780 Probably not.

00:59:09.800 Okay.

00:59:10.280 So let me

00:59:11.360 address those two

00:59:11.980 examples directly.

00:59:13.060 I'll address them.

00:59:13.500 Sports is very

00:59:14.100 important.

00:59:14.660 You said that.

00:59:15.580 You don't have to

00:59:16.100 repeat.

00:59:16.700 I remembered.

00:59:17.120 So, but you

00:59:20.720 don't seem to

00:59:21.240 have a third

00:59:21.980 example.

00:59:23.160 And even if you

00:59:24.140 do, we presume

00:59:25.160 that would be a

00:59:25.680 very distant third

00:59:26.420 compared to those

00:59:27.100 two cases.

00:59:27.900 No, there's a

00:59:28.620 third one I can

00:59:29.280 give you very

00:59:29.780 easily.

00:59:30.080 In this country,

00:59:31.240 for politics, we

00:59:32.080 have female-only

00:59:33.160 shortlists for

00:59:34.160 positions in

00:59:35.460 parliament.

00:59:37.120 Oh, I didn't

00:59:37.520 know about that.

00:59:38.160 That's interesting.

00:59:39.240 Well, that's

00:59:39.600 another example.

00:59:40.280 I can give you

00:59:40.780 more.

00:59:41.280 So, female-only

00:59:42.380 shortlists, there

00:59:43.280 are certain

00:59:43.920 targets within

00:59:44.800 corporations for

00:59:46.340 diversity targets

00:59:48.060 to have a

00:59:48.720 certain number

00:59:49.240 of women on

00:59:50.700 the board.

00:59:51.660 Therefore, when

00:59:52.240 you make a

00:59:52.800 claim that you

00:59:53.480 are female, you

00:59:54.540 are attempting,

00:59:55.820 whether intentionally

00:59:56.660 or not, to

00:59:57.740 insert yourself

00:59:58.660 into categories

00:59:59.480 that are

00:59:59.840 deliberately

01:00:00.320 designed to

01:00:01.540 protect women's

01:00:02.360 interests.

01:00:02.880 That is the

01:00:03.500 concern that

01:00:04.000 people have.

01:00:04.460 So, there's

01:00:04.740 four examples

01:00:05.340 for you there.

01:00:05.840 Please address

01:00:06.260 them.

01:00:06.400 Sure.

01:00:07.140 Interesting about

01:00:07.880 the parliament.

01:00:08.400 I have to look

01:00:08.720 into that to

01:00:09.400 find out.

01:00:10.580 Is it trying to

01:00:11.980 ensure the

01:00:12.540 representation of

01:00:13.260 women?

01:00:13.700 Is that the

01:00:14.120 goal?

01:00:14.280 That's correct.

01:00:14.780 Okay, fine.

01:00:15.340 Perfectly noble

01:00:16.580 cause there.

01:00:17.860 So, about

01:00:19.360 personal changing

01:00:21.940 spaces, okay?

01:00:24.960 That's a

01:00:25.560 solvable problem,

01:00:26.980 of course.

01:00:27.680 And we

01:00:28.120 basically have

01:00:29.280 accomplished that

01:00:30.000 here in

01:00:30.540 Manhattan, where

01:00:31.680 I live.

01:00:33.060 Practically all

01:00:34.240 bathrooms are

01:00:35.500 either multi-gender

01:00:37.600 or solo bathrooms,

01:00:39.380 so only one

01:00:40.040 person at a time,

01:00:40.940 or you walk

01:00:42.220 into a space

01:00:42.940 and there's

01:00:43.620 stalls that

01:00:44.720 are closed

01:00:45.120 off, but

01:00:45.840 then you

01:00:46.100 exit the

01:00:46.560 stall and

01:00:46.960 you come

01:00:47.220 to a

01:00:47.480 communal

01:00:47.760 sink, okay?

01:00:48.980 So, it's

01:00:49.820 a solvable

01:00:50.440 problem where

01:00:52.120 everyone has

01:00:53.260 a private

01:00:53.640 space rather

01:00:55.040 than, for

01:00:56.540 themselves,

01:00:57.360 rather than

01:00:57.880 having a

01:00:58.280 gender private

01:00:59.000 space, okay?

01:01:00.500 It's solvable.

01:01:02.060 On a level, by

01:01:02.840 the way, let me

01:01:03.400 give an example.

01:01:04.400 We have a

01:01:04.840 school from

01:01:05.980 the early

01:01:06.980 20th century

01:01:08.060 in New York

01:01:09.380 and it's, and

01:01:12.120 I just saw it

01:01:12.880 the other day.

01:01:13.800 There's an

01:01:14.420 entrance here and

01:01:15.340 an entrance there

01:01:16.040 and this entrance

01:01:16.960 says girls and

01:01:18.160 this entrance says

01:01:18.920 boys.

01:01:19.860 It's like, what

01:01:20.320 the fuck?

01:01:20.860 What?

01:01:21.200 What?

01:01:21.940 You separate

01:01:22.880 them just to

01:01:23.420 enter the

01:01:23.940 school?

01:01:24.520 I can look

01:01:25.240 back on that

01:01:25.900 and say, that

01:01:26.420 was ridiculous.

01:01:27.920 You guys, what

01:01:29.340 were you thinking?

01:01:30.680 But back then, I'm

01:01:31.620 sure it made

01:01:32.140 complete sense that

01:01:33.260 you're going to

01:01:33.480 send the girls

01:01:34.020 through that

01:01:34.400 entrance and

01:01:35.140 there's an

01:01:35.600 elementary school

01:01:36.320 and the boys

01:01:37.160 through that

01:01:37.560 entrance.

01:01:37.880 So, it is

01:01:39.500 possible to

01:01:40.520 look back on

01:01:41.180 whatever you

01:01:41.680 were doing and

01:01:42.980 say, my gosh,

01:01:44.180 that was really

01:01:44.760 short-sighted and

01:01:45.860 look at the

01:01:46.400 solution that was

01:01:47.680 proposed and

01:01:48.480 implemented.

01:01:49.260 That was a good

01:01:49.820 idea.

01:01:50.160 We moved on

01:01:50.760 from that.

01:01:51.580 So, I remember

01:01:53.160 boys' rooms where

01:01:55.480 you come out and

01:01:56.680 you whip it out and

01:01:59.220 we'd all be peeing

01:02:00.040 into a trough.

01:02:01.520 We don't have

01:02:02.560 those anymore.

01:02:03.820 We do because

01:02:04.440 we're technologically

01:02:06.160 very far behind.

01:02:07.280 Okay, so, then we

01:02:10.320 had urinals just

01:02:11.640 lined up on a

01:02:12.460 wall that was a

01:02:13.780 little more

01:02:14.560 private and now

01:02:15.540 those urinals have

01:02:16.400 little small but

01:02:17.760 real dividers so

01:02:19.240 you're not like

01:02:19.680 looking over.

01:02:20.540 So, there are

01:02:21.660 solutions to the

01:02:23.240 privacy problem and

01:02:24.620 we've all but

01:02:25.460 solved that here.

01:02:26.760 I can't speak for

01:02:27.380 every state in the

01:02:28.240 United States.

01:02:29.020 Definitely here in

01:02:30.220 New York City.

01:02:31.160 The bathrooms, it's

01:02:32.000 not, all right,

01:02:32.620 that's that.

01:02:32.960 Second, with

01:02:34.020 sports, very

01:02:35.180 interesting.

01:02:37.380 There was a case

01:02:38.400 where a woman

01:02:39.040 wanted to be

01:02:39.740 disqualified, they

01:02:40.520 wanted to disqualify

01:02:41.440 her from an event

01:02:42.700 and she had very

01:02:44.200 big muscles and she

01:02:45.180 had naturally high

01:02:46.440 testosterone levels,

01:02:48.180 okay, and she was

01:02:49.420 genetically female but

01:02:52.200 unusually high

01:02:54.460 testosterone levels and

01:02:56.920 so that weirded

01:02:57.700 everybody out.

01:02:58.240 So, I'm wondering

01:02:59.320 whether the future

01:03:00.960 of those sports is

01:03:03.380 you don't contest

01:03:04.260 gender with gender,

01:03:06.680 you contest hormone

01:03:08.380 ratios.

01:03:09.460 Well, hold on a

01:03:10.260 second.

01:03:10.520 What do you think

01:03:11.000 about that?

01:03:11.860 The differences

01:03:12.500 physiologically between

01:03:13.740 men and women are not

01:03:14.680 just hormonal.

01:03:15.480 Women have a different

01:03:16.380 hip angle, they have

01:03:17.320 different heart

01:03:18.300 capacity, they have

01:03:19.120 different lung

01:03:19.620 capacity.

01:03:20.180 I mean, there are

01:03:21.060 profound physiological

01:03:22.600 differences, different

01:03:23.640 bone density.

01:03:24.580 We've had professional

01:03:25.700 athletes on the show to

01:03:26.560 talk about it.

01:03:27.200 I don't have a problem

01:03:27.840 with that.

01:03:28.240 Then you find ways to

01:03:30.220 slice the population so

01:03:32.400 that whatever the event

01:03:33.840 is, is, is

01:03:37.640 interestingly contested.

01:03:39.900 So, for example, I

01:03:41.900 wrestled in my life.

01:03:43.620 I was captain of my

01:03:44.680 high school wrestling

01:03:45.340 team.

01:03:47.260 I wasn't so good in

01:03:48.600 college as I was in

01:03:49.460 high school but that's

01:03:51.100 when I finally wrestled

01:03:52.300 like corn-fed folks

01:03:54.680 from Iowa, people who

01:03:56.480 hauled calves, you know,

01:03:58.220 off the farm, okay?

01:04:00.280 So, in wrestling, it

01:04:02.000 would be unfair for me

01:04:04.440 at 190 pounds, which is

01:04:06.360 what I was back then, to

01:04:08.340 wrestle someone 120

01:04:09.640 pounds.

01:04:10.540 Hold on.

01:04:11.020 It would actually be

01:04:11.760 unfair for you to

01:04:12.620 wrestle someone who's

01:04:13.560 also 190 pounds but

01:04:15.160 female.

01:04:15.320 Let me work my way there.

01:04:16.600 Let me just work my way

01:04:17.640 there because you're, you're,

01:04:18.760 you're, you're, you are, I

01:04:20.980 respect the, how active your

01:04:22.840 brain is but I've thought

01:04:24.660 about all this and just

01:04:25.600 allow me to speak it at the

01:04:26.960 rate that I do, okay?

01:04:28.140 Go for it.

01:04:28.400 So, so, so, um, it would be

01:04:31.300 unfair.

01:04:31.840 So, they have a, in

01:04:33.200 wrestling, they said, let's

01:04:34.660 make weight categories.

01:04:36.260 Okay.

01:04:36.980 So, we make weight

01:04:37.780 categories.

01:04:38.480 So, I don't wrestle the

01:04:39.280 120, I wrestle 190

01:04:40.720 pounder.

01:04:41.360 So, a wrestling match is

01:04:43.260 not just this one person

01:04:44.700 against the other person,

01:04:45.480 it's 10 matches and each

01:04:47.660 one is intensely

01:04:48.760 interesting because they are

01:04:50.740 matched, okay?

01:04:52.200 So, what the trans

01:04:55.620 conversation is foisting

01:04:59.880 upon us is the need to

01:05:03.600 find ways to slice the

01:05:05.500 athletic universe such that

01:05:08.100 we still have interesting

01:05:11.020 fair matches and is it a

01:05:13.640 combination of did you go

01:05:15.000 through puberty, um, uh, uh,

01:05:17.860 as a male and then

01:05:19.040 transition?

01:05:19.900 Did you have puberty

01:05:20.780 blockers, um, what is

01:05:22.800 your hormone level now,

01:05:24.020 uh, as you, if you want

01:05:25.660 to compete?

01:05:26.260 So, it requires more

01:05:28.020 creative thought.

01:05:29.280 Rather than saying no to

01:05:31.700 it all, let's be creative

01:05:33.820 about this as we were with

01:05:35.360 wrestling, as we were, as

01:05:37.180 we are with practically any

01:05:38.980 other sport.

01:05:40.040 In rowing, there's a

01:05:41.180 heavyweight rowing and

01:05:42.020 there's lightweight rowing.

01:05:43.040 They don't compete against

01:05:44.000 each other.

01:05:44.780 Somebody came up with that

01:05:46.120 to resolve the problem

01:05:47.680 because more than one

01:05:49.060 category of person, one

01:05:50.760 wanted to compete.

01:05:51.720 So, I agree with you, it's

01:05:53.200 an unsolved problem, yes,

01:05:55.640 but it's not unsolvable

01:05:57.080 given what we know about

01:05:59.440 human physiology.

01:06:00.560 So, why not rise to that

01:06:02.060 occasion and solve it

01:06:03.420 rather than take your

01:06:06.060 older view of the world

01:06:08.980 and force modern, emergent

01:06:12.260 conduct of people to fit

01:06:13.900 that?

01:06:15.360 Okay, well, can we just

01:06:16.500 come back to the female

01:06:17.940 shortlist and other

01:06:19.320 opportunities that women

01:06:20.600 are afforded by virtue of

01:06:21.800 being women and them now

01:06:23.460 being excluded from that

01:06:24.580 because males are entering

01:06:25.840 that competition?

01:06:26.840 Yeah, so another, a deeper

01:06:27.940 problem, thank you for

01:06:28.820 bringing that up, a deeper

01:06:30.000 problem there is, why were

01:06:32.880 women underrepresented to

01:06:34.160 begin with?

01:06:35.100 What kind of bias exists

01:06:36.620 within parliament or among

01:06:38.040 the voters, maybe even the

01:06:39.980 female voters, that prevented

01:06:42.320 the representation from being

01:06:44.100 there in the first place?

01:06:45.500 That's a whole other social

01:06:47.640 question that maybe can and

01:06:50.520 should be answered at a

01:06:51.540 deeper level than a quota

01:06:53.700 coming in after the fact.

01:06:55.540 Oh, I'm not a fan of

01:06:56.700 quotas, but if they exist...

01:06:57.860 That's how I would address

01:06:58.460 that question.

01:06:59.860 Hold on a second, that's not

01:07:01.000 addressing the question at

01:07:02.000 all.

01:07:02.480 The question is, female

01:07:04.040 shortlist exists, should

01:07:06.100 biological males be allowed to

01:07:07.840 enter those female

01:07:08.660 shortlists?

01:07:09.740 That's as simple as the

01:07:11.140 question is.

01:07:11.660 Yeah, I'm saying you, I

01:07:13.780 would ask why you have the

01:07:14.700 shortlist in the first

01:07:15.500 place.

01:07:15.880 It's because there's

01:07:16.760 something, there's something

01:07:19.100 deeper that's wrong with

01:07:20.720 society that women are

01:07:23.040 underrepresented in

01:07:24.220 governance.

01:07:25.380 So to, so to say now, to

01:07:28.440 protect that now and not try

01:07:30.260 to get to the root of that

01:07:31.180 problem, I think is the cart

01:07:32.840 in front of the horse.

01:07:34.040 So, so I would go deeper to

01:07:37.160 that problem.

01:07:37.740 So you don't even have to

01:07:38.360 have that question.

01:07:38.940 Whose opportunities are

01:07:40.100 being curtailed today because

01:07:42.920 they are being forced to

01:07:45.340 compete, whether in sports

01:07:46.620 or elsewhere, against people

01:07:48.240 who have some kind of

01:07:49.580 advantage over it.

01:07:50.200 We're in a transitional

01:07:51.080 period.

01:07:51.840 So we have to figure that

01:07:52.720 out.

01:07:53.620 But the way to figure out

01:07:55.760 things that require solutions

01:07:59.840 to progressive change is not

01:08:02.100 to regress it to how things

01:08:03.780 once were.

01:08:04.820 If that were the case, I

01:08:06.460 would still be drinking from

01:08:07.480 a segregated water fountain.

01:08:08.940 Okay.

01:08:09.980 Oh, let's merge the water

01:08:12.180 fountains and let's, let's

01:08:13.440 create the opportunities from

01:08:15.340 below so that we don't even

01:08:17.520 need the short list.

01:08:19.280 Okay.

01:08:19.980 That's how I would approach

01:08:21.300 this.

01:08:21.620 That's, I'm, is that, okay.

01:08:24.240 My father worked in the civil

01:08:25.660 rights movement.

01:08:26.220 So I think deeply my book is

01:08:27.980 dedicated to my father who's

01:08:30.060 and the dedication is

01:08:31.020 literally to, to my father,

01:08:33.800 Cyril de Grasse Tyson.

01:08:35.200 Cyril is a Brit name, by the

01:08:36.420 way, it's came from the

01:08:37.340 British West Indies, because

01:08:38.620 you guys were everywhere in

01:08:40.140 the new world in your day.

01:08:41.780 As was our right.

01:08:44.220 So, um, is Cyril de Grasse,

01:08:46.880 Cyril de Grasse Tyson and all

01:08:48.700 those who, um, who see, who

01:08:54.000 see a world that can be rather

01:08:55.800 than the world that is.

01:08:57.140 And so that, that's how I look

01:08:59.300 at it.

01:08:59.580 So yeah, we're in the middle of

01:09:00.960 solving that problem.

01:09:01.880 Now figure, let's figure it out

01:09:03.760 together.

01:09:04.960 I think a lot of people would

01:09:07.920 have an issue with what you're

01:09:09.100 saying, Neil, is because they

01:09:10.820 see women being denied

01:09:12.960 opportunities.

01:09:13.680 They see an unfair playing

01:09:15.880 field, metaphorically and

01:09:17.520 literally speaking.

01:09:18.480 So fix the playing field,

01:09:20.080 damn it.

01:09:20.700 What?

01:09:20.880 Don't say it's an unfair

01:09:22.220 playing field.

01:09:22.880 So all of a sudden, the big

01:09:24.380 issue is trans women taking

01:09:26.420 the slot of a woman in an

01:09:28.000 unfair playing field, fix the

01:09:29.600 playing field.

01:09:30.260 And you know something?

01:09:31.140 The day you fix that playing

01:09:32.480 field, this conversation will

01:09:34.380 look completely ridiculous.

01:09:36.360 That's what I'm trying to tell

01:09:37.600 you.

01:09:38.420 So how do you fix the

01:09:39.400 playing field?

01:09:39.900 I'm curious.

01:09:40.420 Well, that's hard.

01:09:41.200 It's, it's hard.

01:09:42.220 We've been through.

01:09:43.760 Thank you for that question.

01:09:45.840 I think it's, look, if you're

01:09:47.140 advancing that as a solution, I

01:09:48.620 think I have a right to ask

01:09:49.680 you.

01:09:49.920 No, it's great.

01:09:50.820 I don't have a fast

01:09:51.540 solution.

01:09:51.880 But things we have

01:09:53.340 accomplished in the United

01:09:54.740 States, okay, how long it

01:09:57.300 took us to get a black

01:09:58.580 president.

01:09:59.240 By the way, the black

01:10:00.080 president was exactly half

01:10:01.260 white.

01:10:02.000 But the way our vocabulary

01:10:03.300 works in our descriptions of

01:10:04.820 people, we call him black.

01:10:07.540 But genetically, we could

01:10:08.820 have equally have called

01:10:09.560 him white.

01:10:10.400 What's that?

01:10:10.800 You say?

01:10:11.340 You guys do for some

01:10:12.700 inexplicable reason.

01:10:13.740 We call people mixed race if

01:10:15.280 they're from different

01:10:15.840 backgrounds.

01:10:16.380 Yeah.

01:10:16.620 And I would say, why do you

01:10:18.060 even care that there's a

01:10:19.180 mix?

01:10:19.380 I have a whole chapter in the

01:10:20.520 book called Color and Race.

01:10:21.940 I personally don't even care

01:10:23.380 what people, what race people

01:10:24.660 are.

01:10:25.020 I sort of believed in the

01:10:26.060 Martin Luther King idea that we

01:10:27.840 should be judged on the content

01:10:28.840 of our character.

01:10:29.460 Thank you.

01:10:29.800 I lean that way too, although it

01:10:33.040 might not be realistic to

01:10:34.840 implement in precisely the dream

01:10:38.260 state that he imagined, where

01:10:39.860 people will be judged by the

01:10:40.700 content of the color and not by

01:10:41.580 the color of their skin.

01:10:42.920 Because color of skin includes

01:10:44.180 culture and other things, and to

01:10:46.600 ignore someone's culture has other

01:10:48.500 ramifications legally or

01:10:51.760 interpersonally, internationally.

01:10:53.720 So that's a whole other thing.

01:10:56.360 So I don't have a good solution.

01:10:59.060 But what I do know is, let's go

01:11:01.200 back to 1980s, late 80s, American

01:11:07.900 football.

01:11:08.880 There was a quarterback, black,

01:11:12.040 Douglas Johnson, I forgot his,

01:11:14.020 Williams, Douglas Williams, who,

01:11:16.500 black, the first black quarterback to

01:11:19.840 start in our Super Bowl.

01:11:22.840 Articles about this all over the

01:11:25.020 place, okay?

01:11:26.620 Can a black person, is a black

01:11:27.820 person smart enough to take on such

01:11:30.060 an important place because the

01:11:31.580 quarterback calls all the plays,

01:11:33.560 not that they really do today,

01:11:34.720 because it comes from the

01:11:35.520 sidelines, but there was all this

01:11:37.540 articles about it.

01:11:38.680 Will he succeed in this place?

01:11:41.300 And it's like, I'm thinking, what

01:11:42.880 the fuck?

01:11:43.400 Okay, because I'm getting a PhD in

01:11:44.820 astrophysics, and they're talking

01:11:46.200 about whether black people are

01:11:47.120 smart enough to be a quarterback on a

01:11:49.480 football team, okay?

01:11:51.000 Go back to that time and find those

01:11:52.620 articles, all right?

01:11:53.740 So what happens?

01:11:54.820 He sets a Super Bowl record for the

01:11:57.100 most number of yards, passed,

01:12:00.100 received yards, okay?

01:12:01.980 End of that conversation, and it ended

01:12:04.060 forevermore.

01:12:05.080 Now when there's a black quarterback,

01:12:06.360 it doesn't even get mentioned.

01:12:08.900 That's the content of your character

01:12:10.880 and not the color of your skin.

01:12:12.700 The fact that you can have that and

01:12:14.100 it doesn't even go get commented

01:12:16.460 upon is itself progress.

01:12:20.220 Here in the United States, I just,

01:12:21.740 this morning I did some morning talk

01:12:23.520 shows, okay?

01:12:25.360 There are black reporters there,

01:12:26.700 there are female reporters.

01:12:27.920 I remember, people, I remember the

01:12:32.080 first woman anchor and people saying,

01:12:34.360 well, women, are they as believable as

01:12:36.600 men?

01:12:36.880 Do they have the authority?

01:12:38.400 Do they have the confidence in their

01:12:40.140 voice?

01:12:40.540 This was debated and argued that why

01:12:43.440 women should not be delivering the

01:12:46.520 news because we had the voice of

01:12:48.180 Walter Cronkite and others, okay?

01:12:51.480 Yeah, that was a progressive change

01:12:53.460 and we had to adapt, all right?

01:12:55.760 And of course we're adapting and now

01:12:57.440 we have twice as many people to choose

01:12:59.260 from, to put on, and we get the best

01:13:02.120 who's out there.

01:13:03.200 So you solve that from the base.

01:13:06.540 So, so yeah, it took decades, but yeah,

01:13:10.920 it was a while, but I think we're,

01:13:13.440 we're there on many fronts.

01:13:15.140 And the fact that everybody's arguing

01:13:16.900 about trans people and that argument

01:13:18.880 is not about gay people is itself

01:13:21.700 progress.

01:13:23.120 Under President Clinton, nobody's

01:13:24.660 talking about trans people, we're

01:13:25.760 talking about gay people.

01:13:26.940 President Clinton, a progressive

01:13:28.220 president, he says, oh yeah, I have a

01:13:30.620 progressive idea in the military, don't

01:13:32.560 ask, don't tell.

01:13:33.480 So if you were gay, you had to withhold

01:13:36.540 that information from everybody

01:13:38.780 because if you told them, they'd kick

01:13:40.600 you out.

01:13:41.140 That was considered progressive.

01:13:43.720 Today, if you say, don't ask, don't

01:13:45.260 tell, they'd kick you out of the room.

01:13:46.420 What the fuck?

01:13:47.000 What, what, what era did you come up

01:13:49.060 in?

01:13:49.800 So yeah, they're baby steps sometimes,

01:13:52.360 but to quote, um, there's a Unitarian

01:13:57.940 minister in the early 1800s who spoke

01:14:00.580 of the arc of progress, uh, Martin

01:14:02.760 Luther King would quote him in some

01:14:04.240 of his speeches.

01:14:05.440 Uh, the guy's name is in my book.

01:14:07.560 Uh, he said, uh, the summary of that

01:14:10.860 quote is, um, I, I don't know how the

01:14:15.240 arc of justice, the arc of the, of

01:14:18.140 progress bends.

01:14:19.920 I know it bends, but which way does it

01:14:22.940 bend?

01:14:23.140 I'm pretty sure it bends towards, uh, is

01:14:27.640 it progress?

01:14:28.360 I, I, I, I, it's the arc of history

01:14:30.060 bends towards progress.

01:14:31.380 Yeah.

01:14:31.660 There's something like that.

01:14:32.520 And that's a variation, not exactly the

01:14:34.400 wording that's in the book.

01:14:35.480 The book has it correct.

01:14:36.500 All right.

01:14:37.000 And so, so there it is.

01:14:39.500 You just hope it doesn't regress so

01:14:42.040 that we're living in yesterday's world

01:14:44.880 rather than tomorrow's world.

01:14:46.240 So that's, that's the, this is the

01:14:48.260 only points I'm making here.

01:14:49.520 And yeah, well, let's fix the, the

01:14:51.280 athletics, put more categories in

01:14:53.100 sports, figure it out.

01:14:54.820 Get the biologists together with the

01:14:56.900 gender specialists, figure it out.

01:14:58.480 Get the hormone specialists.

01:15:01.600 It's not unfigure outable.

01:15:05.300 Neil, it's been an absolute pleasure.

01:15:07.420 Thank you so much for coming on the

01:15:08.780 show.

01:15:09.120 And we spent half the time talking

01:15:10.400 about gender.

01:15:10.960 Was it something else we were going to

01:15:12.060 talk about?

01:15:12.620 We didn't actually.

01:15:14.500 So we are going to go.

01:15:16.240 Very well set up, Neil.

01:15:17.600 You've done a fantastic job to get

01:15:19.640 people to follow us over to locals

01:15:21.440 where we will be asking you their

01:15:23.440 questions.

01:15:24.080 Before we do, though, we have one

01:15:25.520 final question.

01:15:26.220 Oh, they got to pay to get to that.

01:15:27.380 Oh, yeah, baby.

01:15:29.020 See, we're learning from the

01:15:30.380 Americans, Neil.

01:15:30.900 This is America, baby.

01:15:32.060 Give me your money.

01:15:32.920 Now, Francis, do the last question

01:15:34.340 for the main interview.

01:15:35.220 Okay.

01:15:35.960 Neil, what's the, what's the one

01:15:37.380 thing we're not talking about as a

01:15:38.900 society that we really should be?

01:15:41.600 I'm guessing it's not trans.

01:15:43.480 No.

01:15:43.880 Are we smart enough to be proper

01:15:50.280 shepherds of our own fate?

01:15:52.320 Yeah.

01:15:52.880 That worries me.

01:15:53.720 When I see people making uninformed

01:15:56.320 or just outright crazy or stupid

01:15:59.120 decisions related to the health,

01:16:01.780 welfare, and safety of our species

01:16:04.220 going forward, sometimes I question

01:16:07.540 whether we are wise enough

01:16:09.520 to, you know, it's an old Native

01:16:16.480 American saying, I'll mangle it, but

01:16:19.100 the sense of it will be there, that

01:16:20.580 you want to behave such that seven

01:16:25.600 generations from now they can be proud

01:16:27.580 of you, the decisions you made

01:16:29.600 because we don't bequeathed to them.

01:16:35.420 We, how does it go?

01:16:38.120 We, we actually inherit the present

01:16:42.960 from our future generations.

01:16:45.800 Okay.

01:16:46.620 You do a reverse time thing on it

01:16:48.580 and you ask yourself, am I doing the

01:16:50.400 right thing for them?

01:16:52.220 And I don't, sometimes I wonder

01:16:53.820 when I see the conduct of humans

01:16:55.600 in the world and it's, I'm saddened

01:16:58.340 every now and then, but I'm

01:16:59.800 generally an optimist.

01:17:01.540 So then I say, when I see where

01:17:03.160 there's some problems, I say, maybe

01:17:04.280 I can help that and put in a little

01:17:06.260 extra information there.

01:17:07.820 So, yeah.

01:17:09.400 Neil, thank you so much for coming on.

01:17:11.220 Starry Messenger, really recommend

01:17:13.700 getting the book.

01:17:14.760 Head on over to Locals.

01:17:16.180 And it exists in the UK.

01:17:17.160 There's a UK version of it too.

01:17:18.320 Oh, it's a Sunday Times bestseller

01:17:20.260 actually, so yes.

01:17:21.240 Was it really?

01:17:21.760 Okay, excellent.

01:17:22.560 Thank you.

01:17:22.920 It does exist and very successfully.

01:17:24.640 So head on over to Locals where we

01:17:26.420 ask Neil your questions and continue

01:17:28.120 the conversation.

01:17:30.480 Do you have any scientific opinions

01:17:32.620 that run counter to the scientific

01:17:34.280 consensus?

01:17:35.160 And if so, what are they?

TRIGGERnometry - September 20, 2023

Have We Lost Trust in Science？ - Neil deGrasse Tyson

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