TRIGGERnometry - Heated Debate： Slavery, Reparations & Colonialism with Rafe Heydel-Mankoo and Kehinde Andrews

00:00:00.720 My family's from Jamaica, so I have direct heritage here.

00:00:03.120 The harm has never actually been addressed.

00:00:04.900 The problem is there are no victims of British Empire slavery today.

00:00:08.380 You can't have intergenerational trauma for eight generations.

00:00:11.220 It's simply absurd.

00:00:12.880 Every single thing that powered in the revolution was slave labour.

00:00:16.380 The contribution of, say, of slavery to the British economy was less than 5%.

00:00:21.680 It's the distortions of white historians that just can't accept.

00:00:24.340 That's racist. Now that's racist. 0.99

00:00:25.760 No, it's not racist. It's true.

00:00:27.980 The psychosis of whiteness.

00:00:29.440 It's a rosy-eyed view of the world where you can ignore what's happened historically,

00:00:34.380 ignore the implications which are very clear today.

00:00:37.640 When Europeans came in 40, they weren't massively more technologically advanced. 0.86

00:00:41.440 It's eugenics. It's eugenics dressed up in something else. 0.89

00:00:43.700 Cultural racism.

00:00:45.220 Can you explain why the poorest part of the world is black and the richest part of the world is white? 1.00

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00:01:11.600 Welcome to Trigonometry Debates.

00:01:14.680 The subject for today is reparations and slavery.

00:01:17.620 Should Britain and other Western countries pay them?

00:01:20.140 I'm delighted to be joined by former Trigonometry guest and historian and broadcaster,

00:01:24.400 Rafe Hadelman-Ku.

00:01:25.080 Welcome.

00:01:26.100 And I will get your name wrong, even though you corrected me,

00:01:29.340 and I want to get it right.

00:01:30.220 Kehinde. 0.95

00:01:30.940 Kehinde. 0.95

00:01:31.540 See, I told you.

00:01:32.340 Kehinde. 0.95

00:01:33.040 Kehinde Andrews, who is Britain's first professor of black studies, academic, and broadcasters.

00:01:38.380 Well, welcome to you both.

00:01:39.280 Thank you.

00:01:39.540 Really appreciate you coming.

00:01:40.540 I probably don't need to say which side either of you are arguing for.

00:01:42.760 You're both well-known on these positions.

00:01:45.160 I want both of you to have a chance to set your stall out.

00:01:48.240 So, six, seven minutes each.

00:01:50.280 Kehinde, would you like to go first?

00:01:52.040 Yeah.

00:01:52.360 So, yeah, thanks for the invitation.

00:01:54.100 I mean, I think the key thing with this, when we think about reparations of slavery,

00:01:57.860 is we have the frame that we're using is wrong.

00:02:00.520 And there's so many, because it's wrong, we just get the debate wrong.

00:02:03.260 So, if you actually think about reparations of slavery correctly,

00:02:05.760 there really is no argument against, no good argument.

00:02:08.700 All right?

00:02:09.040 The way I'd put it is I'd use my favorite, Malcolm X.

00:02:11.640 He says, if you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches,

00:02:15.780 we haven't made any progress.

00:02:17.000 Even if you pull it all the way out, we still haven't made any progress.

00:02:19.960 You actually have to heal the wound.

00:02:21.120 Now, what we think of as slavery as something that was long ago,

00:02:24.000 a distant arm that happened and ended, that is clearly nonsensical.

00:02:27.280 If slavery is the knife going into our backs,

00:02:29.800 and then abolition is probably pulling it at three inches.

00:02:33.760 But on abolition, and particularly look at Britain,

00:02:36.020 on abolition, the enslaved to Britain, my family from Jamaica,

00:02:38.900 so I have direct heritage here,

00:02:40.440 the enslaved who worked for 300 years on the island with no pay,

00:02:43.960 in abject poverty, when slavery was abolished, got zero, nothing.

00:02:47.860 The slave owners have got the largest payout in British government history. 0.83

00:02:52.480 100 billion is actually the number we should have equivalent.

00:02:55.340 40% of income, 5% of GDP at the time, was given to the slave owners.

00:02:59.740 So what does that do?

00:03:00.440 That entrenches the wealth, and that entrenches the poverty.

00:03:03.080 So after slavery ends, it's not like this is done and finished.

00:03:05.780 Then we have to live in Jamaica on a colony, 0.99

00:03:07.660 slave colonies still living in the same kind of conditions. 0.73

00:03:09.940 There's a reason why 1865, 30 years after slavery is abolished, 0.99

00:03:14.040 in Jamaica there's a massive uprising,

00:03:15.680 because the conditions are still terrible.

00:03:17.340 Even now, go forward 100, 200 years,

00:03:20.200 because the wealth from slavery is still there,

00:03:22.440 and the poverty from slavery is still there,

00:03:24.440 the harm has never actually been addressed.

00:03:26.280 And it's very clear to trace.

00:03:27.740 So we shouldn't think of slavery as something which happened a long time ago,

00:03:30.500 and therefore we should be past it,

00:03:31.980 because the harm was never addressed,

00:03:33.900 and because it then continued with colonialism,

00:03:36.400 with modern-day racism.

00:03:37.900 Why did my family move here in the first place from Jamaica?

00:03:40.960 It wasn't a voluntary thing.

00:03:42.420 It was because they were put in deep poverty and there was no society where they could get jobs.

00:03:47.080 So they had to come here.

00:03:48.180 And what did they find when they came to the UK?

00:03:50.100 Racism, segregation, etc., etc., etc.

00:03:52.440 So if you're going to look at the black and white wealth gap in the UK,

00:03:56.900 in the Caribbean, in the world,

00:03:58.160 it is impossible to not trace that directly to slavery.

00:04:01.700 And actually, when you think about the arguments of reparation of slavery,

00:04:04.900 which have come from Caribbean countries,

00:04:07.000 which have come from American countries,

00:04:08.680 which have come from Africa as well,

00:04:10.280 another massive misconception here is that Africa doesn't have benefits from slavery. 0.98

00:04:14.120 This is completely ridiculous. 0.97

00:04:15.660 Africa was destroyed by slavery. 0.99

00:04:17.340 Africa's economy was ruined by slavery,

00:04:19.240 to the point where in 1999,

00:04:21.260 there was a specific claim from the African continent

00:04:23.580 for $777 trillion to repay the damage in the Caribbean

00:04:28.000 and the damage to Africa. 0.96

00:04:29.700 There is no way to explain why black people today are, 1.00

00:04:34.320 you look at most statistics are at the bottom of the economic pole,

00:04:37.320 look at statistics around life expectancy are at the bottom of that,

00:04:40.280 look at, and then look at why the richest part of the world is the West,

00:04:44.280 where the white people live is the richest.

00:04:46.420 That's directly down to slavery.

00:04:48.620 So if there is literally no doubt that there is a debt owed,

00:04:52.360 a large debt that is owed,

00:04:54.020 and really reparations usually fall down on how do you do it?

00:04:57.420 Like what's the practicality of paying reparations,

00:05:00.020 which is a different question.

00:05:01.120 But on the principle of should there be reparations,

00:05:03.560 there really, like I said, there's no actual good argument.

00:05:05.420 There's just a lot of obfuscation, whataboutery,

00:05:09.200 and completely misunderstanding the debate.

00:05:12.120 Like I said, the knife is very difficult to argue. 0.97

00:05:14.880 The knife is more than six inches out of the back of black people since slavery, 1.00

00:05:17.960 if you look at the global economy today. 0.59

00:05:19.860 So until it's out, and until the world is healed,

00:05:22.680 reparations have to be due.

00:05:23.760 Since you haven't used all your time,

00:05:25.540 can I just ask one follow-up before Rafe jumps in,

00:05:27.480 which is about the practicality of this,

00:05:29.740 which is you say it's a separate issue,

00:05:31.260 but do you have some thoughts on how it might actually be done?

00:05:34.080 Because for a lot of people, I think that's actually quite a big question.

00:05:36.720 They might instinctively agree with the idea that clearly something is owed,

00:05:42.080 but without knowing what the root of doing that is,

00:05:45.160 and that might be the obstacle for them.

00:05:47.500 Yeah, so I mean, I actually,

00:05:49.520 I think the worst way to do it would be individual reparations,

00:05:52.320 so I don't need slave reparations.

00:05:54.520 Actually, no, the one bearer I do want my own individual slave reparations

00:05:58.260 would be the British government took this loan out

00:06:01.820 to pay for the slave owner reparations that were so large

00:06:06.100 it wasn't paid back until 2014,

00:06:08.320 which means myself, my family,

00:06:10.400 all my family descended from the enslaved

00:06:11.860 actually paid slave owner compensation.

00:06:14.200 I do want that money back.

00:06:15.220 I think that should be an individual payment.

00:06:17.020 I'll have that money back.

00:06:18.120 But generally speaking, it's about,

00:06:19.940 you would set up a fund in the UK and America

00:06:22.580 for the support and development of black people.

00:06:27.660 If you look at the CARICOM countries,

00:06:28.900 they're asking for two nation states rather than two individuals.

00:06:33.040 I'm not always a big fan of the Caribbean nation states

00:06:35.020 and how they manage their money, I'll be honest,

00:06:36.480 but certainly not individual.

00:06:38.000 It is about how do you set up some kind of fund

00:06:41.140 that can be used to develop black communities?

00:06:43.260 Because this is the problem,

00:06:44.280 because of this economic damage that was done

00:06:45.940 and hasn't ever been restored,

00:06:46.940 this is why we're behind in the work.

00:06:48.580 And so you have to have some mechanism,

00:06:50.820 some fund, some tool,

00:06:52.200 some way that we can use the money

00:06:54.580 to address that and to address that balance.

00:06:56.740 Ralph?

00:06:57.900 Well, thanks for having me

00:06:58.880 and thanks for having this discussion.

00:07:01.120 Just to correct you a bit, Kehinde,

00:07:02.540 you and your mother or grandmother

00:07:04.220 weren't paying any money.

00:07:06.720 This is quite an often quoted aspect

00:07:10.140 about payment of reparation

00:07:11.440 that it didn't end until 2014,

00:07:13.780 the repayment of the loan.

00:07:14.800 And it's quite, it's not your fault,

00:07:16.680 there was a tweet put out by the Treasury

00:07:18.320 which was extremely ill-advised and mistaken.

00:07:21.300 What happened was that the slave owner's debt

00:07:23.600 was actually repaid somewhere between 1835 and 1927.

00:07:27.980 And the confusion arises

00:07:29.100 because of the way in which Britain financed its debt.

00:07:31.380 It was using undated guilts.

00:07:33.000 And before 1927,

00:07:34.040 we don't actually have any idea or any record

00:07:36.920 of when those guilts were redeemed.

00:07:38.900 So it was probably paid off before 1927.

00:07:41.680 What happened was in 2015,

00:07:44.600 the British government modernised its guilt portfolios

00:07:47.080 and redeemed all of its undated guilts

00:07:49.140 and so therefore they could confirm categorically,

00:07:51.920 well, it must have been paid by this point

00:07:53.460 because we've covered everything prior to that.

00:07:56.000 But actually it was at least 100 years older.

00:07:57.800 So I'm afraid that reparations check won't be coming.

00:08:00.600 Over to you.

00:08:01.420 I'll get it from my great-grandma

00:08:02.280 because you never did the peace.

00:08:03.120 But anyway,

00:08:05.520 oh, yeah,

00:08:06.340 and you mentioned Malcolm X also

00:08:08.480 and the wound.

00:08:09.660 Well, it reminds me of Nietzsche's

00:08:11.860 Genealogy on Morality

00:08:13.120 where he spoke about people

00:08:14.440 who claw at a healed wound

00:08:16.640 and when it bleeds and is painful

00:08:18.440 then moan about the pain.

00:08:19.960 And I would argue that slavery

00:08:21.440 is a healed wound

00:08:23.060 in the West,

00:08:24.820 in Britain and the West.

00:08:26.160 And essentially we are clawing at a wound

00:08:28.420 that we don't need to claw at any longer.

00:08:30.540 And I think the British people understand that.

00:08:32.220 So, for example,

00:08:33.380 all polling shows

00:08:34.300 that the vast majority of the British public

00:08:36.020 are overwhelmingly opposed

00:08:37.700 to the idea of reparations.

00:08:39.360 And they understand, you know,

00:08:40.860 that the abolition of the slave trade

00:08:42.440 happened more than 200 years ago.

00:08:45.780 And Britain was the leading force

00:08:47.400 in the abolition of the slave trade.

00:08:49.760 Reparations is a matter of tort law

00:08:51.560 and the whole concept of tort law

00:08:53.380 is to put the victim

00:08:54.580 back into the position they were in

00:08:56.040 before the damage was caused.

00:08:57.700 The problem is there are no victims

00:08:59.140 of British Empire slavery today.

00:09:00.900 We're talking about five,

00:09:02.840 between five and eight generations ago.

00:09:06.460 I would also say that for many people,

00:09:09.540 well, certainly I would hope

00:09:10.560 would understand that for many on the left,

00:09:12.560 this issue isn't actually

00:09:14.000 about slavery at all.

00:09:15.900 We talk about reparations and slavery,

00:09:18.080 but quite often for the left,

00:09:19.360 this is actually a weapon

00:09:20.500 with which to attack

00:09:21.940 and undermine Britain and America.

00:09:24.280 And it's rooted in the deep hatred

00:09:26.120 of the West more broadly.

00:09:27.320 In terms of Caribbean politicians,

00:09:29.980 I would say two things.

00:09:31.340 Firstly, it's clearly an avaricious cash grab

00:09:33.540 to try to profit and capitalise

00:09:36.320 and exploit naive Western guilt.

00:09:39.300 I would also say that it's an attempt

00:09:41.340 to deflect attention away

00:09:44.260 from the corruption

00:09:45.080 and the catastrophic mismanagement

00:09:47.280 of the economies,

00:09:48.520 of the institutions,

00:09:49.840 and the infrastructures

00:09:50.720 of the Caribbean nations 0.99

00:09:52.040 by corrupt and incompetent 0.99

00:09:55.680 and substandard Caribbean politicians. 0.99

00:10:00.140 Now, I'm confident in saying all of that

00:10:02.560 because if this were really about slavery,

00:10:05.900 then the people who are most vocal

00:10:07.960 about the plight of black people

00:10:10.020 and the plight of slavery

00:10:11.340 would surely be just as vocal.

00:10:13.340 I would say even more vocal

00:10:15.240 about the far more pressing issue,

00:10:17.120 which is the plight of modern slaves today.

00:10:19.700 The International Labour Organisation says

00:10:22.040 that seven in every 1,000 Africans today

00:10:24.980 is a slave. 0.65

00:10:26.220 That's 10 million people today

00:10:28.640 living horrific lives.

00:10:30.080 To put that into context,

00:10:31.920 it took 300 years

00:10:33.840 of the transatlantic slave trade

00:10:35.360 to transport 10 million people.

00:10:37.480 And that's the number

00:10:38.140 that we have today.

00:10:41.100 It seems to me quite clear

00:10:43.460 that what is more important,

00:10:45.080 looking, speaking out,

00:10:47.440 and drawing attention

00:10:48.640 to the plight of 10 million slaves,

00:10:51.260 drawing attention

00:10:51.940 to the Arab slave trade,

00:10:53.380 which continues to this day

00:10:54.660 where Africans are still shipped

00:10:56.400 to the Middle East as slaves,

00:10:58.000 is that more important

00:10:58.960 or is harking back

00:10:59.940 to historical injustices

00:11:01.240 from 200 years ago?

00:11:02.660 I would say that is

00:11:03.680 the key moral question

00:11:04.760 to which there is only one answer.

00:11:07.120 And yet all the people

00:11:08.000 that I've spoken to

00:11:08.780 and debated on this subject

00:11:09.960 who have been very vocal

00:11:11.140 and write lots of articles

00:11:12.200 about slavery,

00:11:13.080 not once did they address

00:11:14.160 the issue of modern slavery

00:11:15.540 and the plight of black slaves today,

00:11:17.940 and not once did they speak

00:11:19.320 about historical slavery

00:11:20.760 in the context

00:11:21.500 of the non-white actors.

00:11:23.180 There were more Africans 0.99

00:11:24.540 held in bondage

00:11:25.500 by other Africans

00:11:26.540 than were ever transported

00:11:28.160 outside of Africa.

00:11:31.920 So I think those are

00:11:33.800 the crucial ways

00:11:34.480 to look at it.

00:11:35.440 And I think, therefore,

00:11:36.080 you can say that there is

00:11:36.980 an ulterior motive here,

00:11:38.680 which is politically

00:11:39.360 and ideologically motivated.

00:11:41.660 But to go and look at

00:11:42.420 the history of this,

00:11:43.440 a few things to say.

00:11:45.520 Firstly, of course,

00:11:46.360 slavery was an abomination.

00:11:47.680 What happened to 19th century slaves

00:11:49.300 was utterly horrific

00:11:50.320 and reprehensible.

00:11:51.720 And if they were alive,

00:11:52.440 they would be absolutely

00:11:53.580 deserving of reparations.

00:11:54.920 But I cannot see the connection

00:11:56.000 whereby their great,

00:11:57.040 great, great, great, great,

00:11:57.920 great, great grandchild

00:11:59.620 is a victim.

00:12:01.020 They're clearly not a victim.

00:12:02.260 On the contrary,

00:12:02.900 the lives of the descendants

00:12:04.240 of slaves today

00:12:05.240 in Britain and the Caribbean

00:12:06.260 is incalculably better

00:12:07.600 than if their ancestors

00:12:08.560 had never left West Africa.

00:12:11.160 Secondly, Britain has more

00:12:12.340 than paid its debt for slavery.

00:12:15.620 You know, slavery was universal, 0.75

00:12:17.020 but Britain was the first country

00:12:19.040 to make itself deliberately poorer

00:12:21.340 to pursue a moral good,

00:12:23.480 the abolition of the slave trade,

00:12:24.820 expending vast sums in men,

00:12:26.580 in money, in resources

00:12:28.180 to enforce an end

00:12:29.380 to the slave trade

00:12:30.080 on the high seas,

00:12:30.860 but also to go into Africa 0.85

00:12:32.180 and stop Africans enslaving 1.00

00:12:34.100 other Africans.

00:12:36.060 I would also say that actually

00:12:37.700 a form of reparations

00:12:38.600 has already been paid. 0.94

00:12:39.600 You know, the black slave descendants 1.00

00:12:41.340 are not the indigenous peoples 0.99

00:12:42.920 of the Caribbean islands.

00:12:44.500 With independence,

00:12:45.540 they became the legal owners

00:12:47.140 and the rulers of territory

00:12:49.520 they never previously owned.

00:12:51.220 That's a form of reparations.

00:12:53.300 And also, they inherited

00:12:54.660 all the great things

00:12:56.920 that the British Empire

00:12:57.680 created at great expense.

00:12:59.540 Roads, schools, hospitals,

00:13:01.600 power stations and infrastructure,

00:13:03.540 the police, civil service,

00:13:04.980 the army, the judiciary,

00:13:07.860 parliament, democracy

00:13:11.240 and the rule of law,

00:13:12.060 the English language,

00:13:13.000 all the things that were necessary

00:13:14.520 to make sure that the Caribbean countries

00:13:16.760 could become successful

00:13:17.860 middle-income countries

00:13:18.940 far richer than their African comrades. 1.00

00:13:21.880 Anyway, that's my opening piece.

00:13:23.700 Well, I heard a lot of sighing

00:13:25.200 from this side.

00:13:26.640 But before you get into it,

00:13:28.020 may I just ask one follow-up

00:13:29.620 with you, Rafe, as well,

00:13:30.420 which is,

00:13:31.360 can you really say,

00:13:33.280 with a straight face,

00:13:34.760 that there are no victims

00:13:36.280 of slavery today?

00:13:37.520 I mean, you go to America,

00:13:39.520 you travel around...

00:13:40.420 A British Empire slavery outside.

00:13:41.960 Okay, but that's exactly

00:13:44.360 what I'm saying.

00:13:45.000 So if you go to America

00:13:46.260 and you look at

00:13:47.440 some of the ghettos 0.99

00:13:48.900 in the cities in the United States

00:13:50.580 and the way that people live there,

00:13:52.080 is it really so hard

00:13:53.480 to trace that back

00:13:54.560 to a history of real horrific racism,

00:13:57.760 legislation that prevented

00:13:59.040 black people from living 1.00

00:14:00.620 in the same way 0.78

00:14:01.620 that their white fellow citizens were?

00:14:03.280 And then, of course,

00:14:04.420 being transported there

00:14:05.560 and used as slave labor 0.78

00:14:06.720 without being paid.

00:14:07.780 Wouldn't all those things

00:14:09.100 across generations

00:14:10.480 have exactly the sort of impact

00:14:12.240 that we now see on the ground?

00:14:13.420 So two things.

00:14:14.260 Firstly, I'm not talking

00:14:15.440 about the American experience.

00:14:17.040 I think racism

00:14:17.740 is a massive issue in America

00:14:19.840 to a degree we don't know

00:14:21.040 or understand

00:14:21.780 in this country here.

00:14:23.520 Race is a huge divide

00:14:24.840 in the United States,

00:14:25.900 which it never was here.

00:14:27.160 I mean, for example,

00:14:28.440 you know,

00:14:28.700 if you look

00:14:29.380 from the 19th century onwards,

00:14:31.760 black Americans

00:14:32.640 who came to the UK,

00:14:33.980 they were amazed

00:14:34.640 at the warm reception

00:14:35.520 they received.

00:14:36.720 Look at people

00:14:37.160 like Howling Wolf,

00:14:38.520 Great Blues,

00:14:39.480 Otis Redding,

00:14:40.240 and others who were housed

00:14:41.320 by white people in houses.

00:14:42.660 The experience of black people

00:14:44.500 in this country

00:14:45.240 was wholly different.

00:14:46.760 But they were brought to America 0.99

00:14:48.120 by the British Empire.

00:14:49.180 So, well, no,

00:14:51.780 it was the Americans

00:14:52.820 who brought them to America,

00:14:54.100 if I remember.

00:14:55.640 But also,

00:14:56.280 that's one point.

00:14:57.440 But secondly,

00:14:58.440 you know,

00:14:58.660 if you look at the decline

00:14:59.560 and the great deal

00:15:00.600 of the poverty

00:15:01.040 that's afflicted

00:15:01.940 American black people,

00:15:03.620 it has resulted,

00:15:04.660 basically,

00:15:05.360 from the destruction

00:15:06.080 of the family

00:15:06.700 post-1960s.

00:15:08.200 That's when you saw

00:15:08.900 a huge massive decline

00:15:10.300 in the security

00:15:11.120 and prosperity

00:15:12.060 of so many families.

00:15:13.160 You look at the decline

00:15:13.740 of Harlem in the 1920s

00:15:16.220 and all sorts of things

00:15:17.000 on that level.

00:15:17.440 But I'm not here to debate

00:15:18.700 the American situation.

00:15:20.440 What I will say,

00:15:21.020 if you're going to talk

00:15:21.420 about intergenerational trauma,

00:15:22.980 we're talking about

00:15:23.760 eight generations

00:15:24.520 in this country, right?

00:15:25.600 200 years.

00:15:26.480 A generation is 25 years. 0.90

00:15:27.720 That's your great,

00:15:28.360 great, great, great

00:15:28.960 grandchildren.

00:15:30.240 My own grandparents

00:15:31.480 had experiences

00:15:33.460 not different to slavery.

00:15:34.880 They were deported

00:15:36.920 to Siberia

00:15:37.660 by Joseph Stalin.

00:15:38.720 They were Poles. 0.98

00:15:39.420 They had all their lands

00:15:40.300 confiscated.

00:15:41.040 They ended up

00:15:41.640 going in cattle tracks

00:15:42.980 where they couldn't sit down,

00:15:44.200 going to the gulags

00:15:45.720 in Siberia

00:15:46.600 and Kazakhstan.

00:15:47.760 My great-grandmother

00:15:48.560 who was blind

00:15:49.280 in her 80s

00:15:50.120 died there.

00:15:51.540 Others were worked to death.

00:15:53.060 I had the communists 0.78

00:15:53.960 murder my family 0.81

00:15:55.020 in the Katyn massacre. 0.93

00:15:56.200 The Nazis murdered

00:15:57.100 my Polish Catholic family

00:15:58.820 as well at Auschwitz

00:16:00.720 and elsewhere.

00:16:02.120 That's within the lifetime

00:16:03.380 of my mother.

00:16:04.940 You could argue

00:16:05.480 that my mother

00:16:06.020 had a bad experience

00:16:06.880 about it all.

00:16:07.420 I'm the grandchild.

00:16:08.400 I don't feel like

00:16:09.100 I'm a victim.

00:16:10.060 I don't experience

00:16:10.920 intergenerational trauma.

00:16:12.720 Fundamentally affected

00:16:13.460 my lives.

00:16:14.220 We lost all of our properties

00:16:15.360 and estates in Poland

00:16:16.400 and I'm living

00:16:17.020 in a very different lifestyle.

00:16:18.380 But I don't feel

00:16:19.120 that I'm a victim in any way.

00:16:20.680 And that's within

00:16:21.200 one generation.

00:16:22.300 That's why I support

00:16:23.180 reparations within

00:16:24.520 one or two generations.

00:16:25.480 I think it was right

00:16:26.260 for the Germans

00:16:26.800 to pay reparations

00:16:27.640 to Poland.

00:16:28.320 I think it was right

00:16:29.100 and to the Jews.

00:16:29.820 I think it was right

00:16:30.460 for Japan to pay reparations.

00:16:32.220 But not when we're talking

00:16:33.240 about eight generations.

00:16:34.540 There comes a point

00:16:35.500 where you need to stop

00:16:36.640 playing the victim.

00:16:38.200 And unfortunately,

00:16:38.980 that's why I talk

00:16:39.880 about Nietzsche

00:16:40.460 and clawing 0.97

00:16:41.480 at a wound

00:16:42.700 that's healed.

00:16:44.420 The more you talk

00:16:45.640 about the fact

00:16:46.320 that we are in this position

00:16:47.340 because of other people,

00:16:48.460 we need to actually

00:16:49.460 depend on other people

00:16:51.360 for handouts and begging,

00:16:52.860 the less you take away

00:16:53.780 your agency

00:16:54.480 and the idea

00:16:55.160 of personal responsibility.

00:16:56.800 And I think a lot of this,

00:16:58.020 the trauma

00:16:58.440 that's being talked about

00:16:59.540 has been festered

00:17:00.680 by this constant negativity

00:17:01.900 and focus.

00:17:02.820 Whereas we look at places

00:17:03.880 like Singapore,

00:17:04.740 for example,

00:17:05.600 also a backwards colony

00:17:06.900 where they essentially

00:17:07.960 turned things around,

00:17:09.080 created a great industry.

00:17:10.480 We talk about India

00:17:11.360 being an oppressed,

00:17:12.620 colonized state.

00:17:13.760 They managed to turn

00:17:14.560 things around super well.

00:17:16.160 Poland went through 0.97

00:17:16.940 150th poorest country

00:17:18.780 in the world

00:17:19.040 to turn things around.

00:17:19.980 It's all ended in great.

00:17:21.520 We can debate India

00:17:22.800 on another occasion

00:17:23.560 because we can have

00:17:24.080 an equally long debate

00:17:25.100 about that.

00:17:25.760 So I think the time comes

00:17:27.120 when you have to start

00:17:27.720 looking within your own community.

00:17:29.120 What is it within our community

00:17:30.420 that is stopping us

00:17:31.620 from progressing and succeeding

00:17:32.920 rather than looking elsewhere?

00:17:35.320 Why do we have

00:17:36.620 a youth culture

00:17:37.500 that celebrates violence

00:17:38.780 and misogyny

00:17:39.560 and homophobia

00:17:40.200 and that's openly supported?

00:17:41.640 Why do we have

00:17:42.120 single-parent families

00:17:43.140 where the fathers

00:17:43.720 aren't involved?

00:17:44.260 You know, slavery

00:17:44.920 will explain all these things.

00:17:46.320 But look at those reasons

00:17:47.700 and why do Afro-Caribbean families

00:17:50.680 not encourage their children

00:17:52.360 enough in education

00:17:53.220 to the same degree

00:17:53.980 that you see with Chinese 1.00

00:17:55.140 and Indians.

00:17:55.640 It's not true.

00:17:55.800 And Indian children. 0.92

00:17:56.260 Can I just point it?

00:17:56.760 That's factually untrue.

00:17:57.840 So can we not put

00:17:58.660 factually untrue?

00:17:59.500 Well, why don't you address

00:18:00.600 you were sighing

00:18:01.960 for a long time

00:18:02.740 so I imagine you have

00:18:03.760 lots of things to say.

00:18:05.540 Go for it.

00:18:06.620 All right, people.

00:18:07.300 It's trivia time.

00:18:08.600 Financial trivia,

00:18:09.380 to be exact.

00:18:10.540 Do you know

00:18:11.020 what retirement asset

00:18:12.040 grew the most

00:18:12.840 in the first six months

00:18:13.800 of President Trump's

00:18:14.760 second term?

00:18:15.800 Many of you probably guessed

00:18:17.060 the stock market

00:18:17.880 was the best

00:18:18.500 since what's backing

00:18:19.340 the most retirement accounts

00:18:20.540 in America today is that.

00:18:22.340 But from January the 21st

00:18:23.940 through July 21st,

00:18:25.520 the Dow Jones

00:18:26.180 grew less than 1%.

00:18:27.720 What about Bitcoin?

00:18:29.360 President Trump loves Bitcoin

00:18:30.640 so it must have

00:18:31.380 performed well, right?

00:18:32.940 Well, it did.

00:18:33.920 It grew nearly 15%.

00:18:35.720 An impressive

00:18:36.520 six-month investment.

00:18:37.580 But it's not the number one.

00:18:39.680 The heavyweight champion

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00:19:44.880 I mean,

00:19:45.280 like I said

00:19:45.680 at the start,

00:19:46.160 there's no good arguments

00:19:47.180 and all we've had here

00:19:47.860 is what about

00:19:49.340 is complete nonsensical.

00:19:51.180 Like,

00:19:51.460 if so,

00:19:51.940 if it was right

00:19:53.220 to give,

00:19:53.840 as far as I understand

00:19:54.660 your argument,

00:19:55.460 it would have been correct

00:19:56.460 to give reparations

00:19:57.460 in 1838.

00:19:59.720 Yes?

00:20:00.680 Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:01.240 So that didn't happen

00:20:02.360 and because that

00:20:03.620 didn't happen,

00:20:04.620 there is a consequence

00:20:05.440 that the poverty

00:20:06.020 is still there

00:20:06.560 and the wealth

00:20:07.020 is still there.

00:20:07.620 So how can you

00:20:08.120 possibly hold

00:20:08.960 the argument

00:20:09.360 in your head

00:20:09.840 that if it was right

00:20:10.600 to do it

00:20:10.980 and you don't do it,

00:20:12.020 then there's no consequences

00:20:13.020 for not doing it?

00:20:14.040 I mean,

00:20:14.220 that's simple.

00:20:15.920 You're talking about

00:20:16.780 race doesn't exist here?

00:20:18.240 I'm sorry.

00:20:19.460 I've heard it

00:20:20.140 very far before about this

00:20:21.200 and tends to focus

00:20:22.060 on Caribbean countries

00:20:23.340 like Barbados,

00:20:24.520 Antigua,

00:20:25.040 small countries,

00:20:26.020 small islands

00:20:26.540 which have been able

00:20:27.620 to manage colonialism

00:20:28.820 a little bit better.

00:20:29.440 Jamaica has a population

00:20:31.020 that's bigger than

00:20:31.660 Barbados,

00:20:32.500 Antigua,

00:20:32.840 most of the Caribbean

00:20:33.360 put together.

00:20:34.120 There are ghettos 1.00

00:20:34.780 in Jamaica

00:20:35.220 that will make

00:20:35.840 American ghettos 0.98

00:20:36.520 look like literally friendly

00:20:38.500 that none of us

00:20:39.420 would walk through them today

00:20:40.360 and as you said,

00:20:42.940 we wouldn't even be there. 0.99

00:20:44.180 There should be no black people 1.00

00:20:45.160 in Jamaica at all. 0.99

00:20:46.060 80% to 90% of the population

00:20:48.100 live there

00:20:48.760 and most are living

00:20:49.620 in conditions of poverty

00:20:50.560 that we wouldn't accept.

00:20:51.880 So no,

00:20:52.380 the Caribbean

00:20:52.740 isn't this great,

00:20:53.680 wonderful place

00:20:54.300 that people live in

00:20:54.940 and it's all wonderful

00:20:55.480 to be in.

00:20:56.500 Compare the audacity

00:20:58.160 to suggest that

00:20:59.120 because Jamaica

00:21:00.300 is somewhat doing better

00:21:01.500 than the African countries

00:21:02.560 therefore you are lucky

00:21:03.800 to be in Jamaica?

00:21:04.980 Well,

00:21:05.180 that's nonsense

00:21:05.760 and again,

00:21:06.280 as I said before,

00:21:07.160 one of the biggest misconceptions.

00:21:08.760 Because I don't understand

00:21:10.000 what Wraith is saying is

00:21:11.680 these people are better off

00:21:13.780 and I'm not saying.

00:21:15.120 I mean,

00:21:15.440 are they relatively better off?

00:21:16.860 Yes,

00:21:17.000 but again,

00:21:17.400 this is the biggest misconception

00:21:18.860 about slavery

00:21:19.520 is that slavery,

00:21:21.100 when we talk about reparations

00:21:22.020 we're just talking about

00:21:23.040 the descendants of the enslaved.

00:21:24.600 Africa did not benefit 1.00

00:21:25.440 from slavery,

00:21:26.040 Africa was devastated

00:21:27.220 by slavery.

00:21:28.300 Slavery utterly destroyed

00:21:29.780 the economy

00:21:30.820 of the African continent.

00:21:32.140 When Europe came into Africa, 0.95

00:21:33.820 Europe couldn't colonize.

00:21:35.360 Like,

00:21:35.520 it was not possible.

00:21:36.280 Europe,

00:21:36.540 Africa was ahead of Europe. 0.98

00:21:38.260 It is the centuries of slavery

00:21:39.300 drawing out people,

00:21:40.180 changing the economy

00:21:40.800 that means that Africa 0.97

00:21:41.860 becomes diluted,

00:21:43.220 if you like,

00:21:43.680 weakened to the point

00:21:44.340 where in the 19th century

00:21:46.000 European countries

00:21:47.360 can take over.

00:21:48.520 There's a reason

00:21:48.940 why most African countries 0.98

00:21:50.000 are colonized

00:21:51.400 for less than 100 years.

00:21:52.460 Europe just wasn't able

00:21:53.180 to do it.

00:21:53.580 Slavery completely

00:21:54.420 destroyed the continent

00:21:55.620 which is why

00:21:56.240 there was a claim

00:21:57.260 in 1999

00:21:57.940 for $777 trillion.

00:21:59.900 So,

00:22:00.200 if I was going to explain

00:22:01.080 why is Nigeria,

00:22:02.020 why is the life expectancy

00:22:02.940 in Nigeria 54,

00:22:04.280 why is the poorest part

00:22:05.880 of the world

00:22:06.240 by GDP per capita

00:22:07.200 so-called sub-Saharan Africa,

00:22:08.700 it's not coincidental

00:22:10.180 that that is the place

00:22:11.120 the enslaved were taken from.

00:22:12.480 That is the reason for it.

00:22:14.020 So,

00:22:14.260 yes,

00:22:14.480 we might be slightly better off

00:22:15.760 in the Caribbean

00:22:16.260 than they are in Africa 0.92

00:22:18.360 but both of those things

00:22:19.560 are about slavery

00:22:20.140 and there's both a harm

00:22:21.780 that needs to be repaired.

00:22:23.080 The other thing,

00:22:23.680 I'll send you my book,

00:22:24.540 New Age of Empire.

00:22:25.140 I am someone

00:22:25.900 who talked deeply

00:22:26.840 about the Islamic slave trade.

00:22:28.400 Of course,

00:22:28.720 the Islamic slave trade,

00:22:29.820 in fact,

00:22:30.600 without the Islamic slave trade, 0.65

00:22:31.920 there probably is

00:22:32.560 no European slave trade.

00:22:33.940 Europe doesn't really

00:22:35.020 have new ideas

00:22:35.580 and just tend to copy

00:22:36.340 other ideas.

00:22:37.180 So,

00:22:37.440 the Islamic slave trade

00:22:38.160 was horrendous,

00:22:38.940 had a massive impact

00:22:39.840 but the key difference

00:22:41.360 and this is why

00:22:41.820 the reparations claim

00:22:42.620 is so important

00:22:43.560 is in the Arab slave trade,

00:22:46.620 it was predominantly

00:22:47.520 about servants.

00:22:49.020 So,

00:22:49.140 it was mostly women, 1.00

00:22:49.720 it was mostly about servants,

00:22:50.720 it was mostly,

00:22:51.160 it wasn't wealth producing,

00:22:52.760 right?

00:22:52.960 The money in the Arab slave trade

00:22:54.500 was the traders.

00:22:55.280 There's actually stories

00:22:56.020 of Arab slave traders

00:22:56.860 who have so much money

00:22:58.060 and they have nowhere

00:22:58.680 to spend it.

00:22:59.640 So,

00:23:00.060 what claim can I make

00:23:01.440 to a system

00:23:02.560 that didn't produce money?

00:23:04.080 The difference,

00:23:04.740 the difference,

00:23:05.680 no,

00:23:05.920 but didn't produce,

00:23:06.760 produced wealth

00:23:07.540 for the traders

00:23:08.200 but it didn't produce society. 0.89

00:23:10.540 The difference between,

00:23:11.480 the major difference between,

00:23:12.480 well,

00:23:12.640 there's two major differences.

00:23:13.760 Why again,

00:23:14.180 we should never,

00:23:14.980 never,

00:23:15.720 ever think that

00:23:16.860 modern day so-called slavery

00:23:18.120 is the same as

00:23:18.700 chattel slavery.

00:23:19.520 It is not.

00:23:20.500 Chattel slavery 0.94

00:23:21.100 is a reduction of someone

00:23:22.120 to a horse,

00:23:23.100 a cow,

00:23:23.920 and in English law,

00:23:25.480 by the way,

00:23:25.840 not American law,

00:23:26.920 and for 150 years,

00:23:28.760 the people,

00:23:29.360 it was the British Empire

00:23:30.700 taking people to America.

00:23:32.340 But the,

00:23:33.440 there's no comparison

00:23:34.100 of modern day slavery.

00:23:34.920 It's a bad thing,

00:23:35.460 don't get me wrong,

00:23:35.980 we shouldn't even

00:23:36.340 call it slavery.

00:23:36.920 The difference between

00:23:38.520 the Arab slave trade

00:23:39.320 and the,

00:23:40.420 I'm not sure

00:23:40.880 modern day slaves

00:23:41.580 would feel the same way

00:23:42.360 about you.

00:23:42.820 No,

00:23:43.020 words matter.

00:23:44.120 Privilising the horrors

00:23:44.980 of the literature

00:23:45.460 out to them.

00:23:46.180 For one,

00:23:47.100 modern day slavery

00:23:47.640 is illegal,

00:23:48.440 it's a crime,

00:23:49.640 slavery was not,

00:23:50.400 it was the thing

00:23:51.300 that we all did.

00:23:52.120 Early in 1980,

00:23:53.100 Mauritania

00:23:54.120 had bothered slavery.

00:23:55.080 You can't compare it to you,

00:23:56.600 you're not chattel,

00:23:57.420 you're not,

00:23:57.800 you're not,

00:23:58.300 you're not literally

00:23:59.540 legally defined

00:24:00.640 as non-human,

00:24:03.000 which is what my ancestors

00:24:04.020 were legally defined

00:24:05.040 as a horse

00:24:05.900 and a cow

00:24:06.540 by the English courts,

00:24:07.800 which is why America

00:24:08.520 then carried on slavery,

00:24:09.640 by the way.

00:24:10.320 Anyway,

00:24:10.680 my point is,

00:24:11.160 the difference between

00:24:11.740 the Arab slave trade,

00:24:12.940 which didn't build

00:24:14.120 Arabic society,

00:24:15.040 it was mostly,

00:24:15.460 I said,

00:24:15.720 mostly servants,

00:24:16.340 it's terrible,

00:24:16.820 I'm not saying

00:24:17.160 the Arab slave trade

00:24:17.640 was great,

00:24:18.240 it was horrendous,

00:24:19.280 but European slavery,

00:24:20.480 it turned us into commodities

00:24:21.640 and it powered

00:24:22.680 the Industrial Revolution.

00:24:23.540 I've heard you argue

00:24:24.180 before this isn't true.

00:24:25.500 Every single thing

00:24:26.520 that powers the Industrial Revolution,

00:24:27.840 first it's gold,

00:24:28.800 then it's silver,

00:24:29.680 then it's tobacco,

00:24:31.320 then it's indigo,

00:24:32.200 then it's cotton.

00:24:33.140 Every single thing

00:24:34.100 that powered the Industrial Revolution

00:24:35.080 was slave labour.

00:24:37.000 Which one of those things

00:24:38.040 did not come from Atlantic,

00:24:39.440 which one of those things

00:24:40.520 did not come from Atlantic trade?

00:24:43.040 We're doing very long answers,

00:24:44.320 which I'm making,

00:24:44.740 you know,

00:24:45.040 there are about six different points.

00:24:46.440 Which one of those five

00:24:47.680 founding things

00:24:48.760 did not come from slave labour?

00:24:49.020 The Industrial Revolution,

00:24:50.400 answer the question.

00:24:51.200 The Industrial Revolution,

00:24:52.120 if you look at the top five,

00:24:54.020 so the arguments

00:24:54.740 that have been made

00:24:55.520 by you and by Professor Beckles

00:24:56.800 are that the Industrial Revolution

00:24:58.080 was caused by profits

00:24:59.640 from the slave trade,

00:25:01.120 that it was caused by profits

00:25:02.600 from the sugar industry,

00:25:04.060 and that it's under investment

00:25:05.860 and under development

00:25:06.660 by Britain and the empire.

00:25:08.260 That's right.

00:25:09.020 Cotton, sugar, gold?

00:25:09.940 Now, cotton was not

00:25:11.080 a British Caribbean commodity,

00:25:12.960 that was from America.

00:25:13.920 Wait, who produced the cotton?

00:25:14.880 Who produced the cotton?

00:25:15.600 Yeah, but that's not part of

00:25:16.580 the reparations argument.

00:25:19.060 It should be.

00:25:19.400 No, it should be.

00:25:19.900 It's a bad argument.

00:25:20.660 Let him answer it.

00:25:22.660 So, what gets me

00:25:25.340 is people on the left

00:25:26.120 always look for a bad reason

00:25:27.920 behind any excellence

00:25:29.380 on the part of the West.

00:25:30.580 It couldn't be because

00:25:31.280 of British genius

00:25:32.460 or because of situations

00:25:33.580 and circumstances

00:25:34.420 in this country

00:25:35.280 that we've got

00:25:36.020 the Industrial Revolution.

00:25:37.240 There has to be

00:25:37.780 a nefarious cause

00:25:38.840 of any great Western achievement.

00:25:40.800 The Industrial Revolution

00:25:41.540 happened because,

00:25:42.600 firstly, you had

00:25:43.100 the Agricultural Revolution

00:25:44.260 in the 17th century

00:25:45.720 which led to a surplus

00:25:47.020 of labour

00:25:47.580 which meant you had

00:25:48.280 an excess labour force

00:25:49.360 that was then available

00:25:50.440 to go into industry.

00:25:52.180 You had abundant

00:25:52.980 natural resources

00:25:53.840 where you could literally

00:25:54.480 pick up coal off the ground

00:25:55.960 and you had iron resources.

00:25:58.120 You had innovation

00:25:59.260 and technology

00:26:00.020 which was far in excess

00:26:02.020 of what else

00:26:02.540 happened elsewhere.

00:26:03.480 And the reason you had

00:26:04.020 such engineering

00:26:04.620 and innovation technology,

00:26:06.160 if you read

00:26:06.640 Professor Joseph Heinrich

00:26:08.120 from Harvard University's book

00:26:09.360 which we discussed

00:26:09.900 on your show

00:26:10.480 on the weirdest minds

00:26:11.900 in the world,

00:26:12.460 the weirdest people

00:26:13.200 in the world,

00:26:13.840 the Western mind

00:26:14.680 by the 80th and 19th century

00:26:15.940 was fundamentally different

00:26:16.980 in how it viewed

00:26:17.600 the world

00:26:18.120 to the Occidental mind.

00:26:19.620 It's actually just

00:26:20.080 doing racism.

00:26:20.820 We're actually just

00:26:21.280 going to say racism.

00:26:21.860 Hold on.

00:26:23.260 Our mind was better.

00:26:25.220 Why is that racist?

00:26:26.440 How is that?

00:26:27.180 It's different.

00:26:28.240 You said better.

00:26:28.940 Come on.

00:26:29.480 Come on.

00:26:29.800 Let's not play.

00:26:30.620 Fundamentally different,

00:26:31.500 I said.

00:26:31.780 But different

00:26:32.280 and then it leads

00:26:32.920 to a great world.

00:26:33.540 That means you're saying better.

00:26:34.500 Yes.

00:26:34.880 That's a racist idea.

00:26:35.520 It's fundamentally different.

00:26:36.140 We should get a

00:26:36.520 program racist ideas.

00:26:37.520 We can have a list

00:26:38.140 of all the scientific

00:26:38.840 and medicine discoveries

00:26:40.380 that came out of Europe 0.95

00:26:41.200 versus the rest of the world

00:26:42.220 if you'd like.

00:26:42.740 We can take as long as you want.

00:26:44.460 Let me finish the points here.

00:26:46.100 We also had in Britain,

00:26:47.500 we had institutional stability

00:26:49.320 which you didn't have elsewhere

00:26:50.620 especially in Europe

00:26:51.280 at this time as well.

00:26:52.140 So we had political stability.

00:26:53.840 We had the environment

00:26:54.600 that was able to become

00:26:55.680 conducive to the industrial revolution.

00:26:58.060 We also had

00:26:58.760 the financial markets

00:27:00.240 which were unparalleled elsewhere.

00:27:01.620 Gold and silver.

00:27:02.920 Where did they go from?

00:27:03.520 We had the structures

00:27:04.900 through the stock market

00:27:06.520 where you could actually create

00:27:08.140 these sorts of situations.

00:27:10.500 And so, yes, of course,

00:27:11.540 we had trade routes

00:27:12.340 and we had access

00:27:13.180 to raw materials

00:27:13.980 but you cannot deny...

00:27:15.300 Just a bit?

00:27:15.780 No, well, if you look...

00:27:17.220 The Atlantic...

00:27:17.880 You've got to let them finish.

00:27:19.640 1798 to 1802

00:27:20.860 was the five-year period

00:27:21.920 which saw the most slave ships.

00:27:23.380 All right?

00:27:24.000 During...

00:27:24.360 And if you look at 1792,

00:27:26.540 for example,

00:27:27.000 the peak year for slavery,

00:27:28.660 there were 204 slave ships.

00:27:31.360 British total vessels

00:27:32.440 were 14,000.

00:27:34.320 Slavery accounted

00:27:35.120 for 1.5%

00:27:36.680 of the total British fleet.

00:27:39.260 3% of tonnage.

00:27:41.560 The contribution of, say,

00:27:43.200 of slavery

00:27:44.100 to the British economy

00:27:44.960 was less than 5%.

00:27:46.300 It made certain people

00:27:47.700 very rich.

00:27:48.640 That's why you get

00:27:49.360 some great country houses.

00:27:50.420 It made places like Bristol

00:27:51.940 and Liverpool very rich.

00:27:53.360 But the amount of money

00:27:54.160 we're talking about

00:27:54.940 is so small

00:27:55.840 that it didn't have

00:27:56.420 any consequential effect

00:27:57.760 on the British nation

00:27:59.540 as a whole.

00:28:00.420 If you look at

00:28:00.780 the sugar industry

00:28:01.520 which is claimed

00:28:02.760 it was fundamental

00:28:03.860 for the Industrial Revolution,

00:28:05.600 that amounted

00:28:06.320 to 2.5%

00:28:07.340 of net British national income.

00:28:10.200 Coal,

00:28:10.960 sheep farming,

00:28:11.880 woolen industry,

00:28:12.660 iron

00:28:12.920 were all much higher than that.

00:28:14.880 In 1770,

00:28:15.960 which was the peak year

00:28:16.760 for capital formation

00:28:17.900 for sugar,

00:28:19.140 it only accounted

00:28:19.680 for 3% of capital formation.

00:28:21.440 If sugar was such

00:28:22.200 a hot commodity,

00:28:23.120 such a great investment,

00:28:24.120 you would have had money

00:28:24.740 pouring into it

00:28:25.360 from all other industries.

00:28:26.520 You didn't get that.

00:28:27.600 In fact,

00:28:27.980 if you look at

00:28:28.580 flax and linen

00:28:29.620 from Scotland and Ireland,

00:28:30.900 they became much more

00:28:32.460 of a revenue generator

00:28:33.740 for the British economy,

00:28:34.780 far higher than sugar.

00:28:36.280 Nobody has said

00:28:37.020 that without flax and linen

00:28:38.180 you wouldn't have had

00:28:39.260 the Industrial Revolution.

00:28:40.780 In fact,

00:28:41.400 the contribution of sugar

00:28:42.740 to the British economy

00:28:43.580 was the same

00:28:44.280 as barley and hops

00:28:45.380 from which you make beer

00:28:46.340 and I don't recall

00:28:47.080 anyone saying

00:28:47.720 that beer was fundamental

00:28:48.660 for the Industrial Revolution.

00:28:50.620 Now,

00:28:50.920 you mentioned Jamaica.

00:28:51.480 Let me,

00:28:51.840 because I've been spoke

00:28:52.380 for a while.

00:28:53.420 Let's stick on,

00:28:54.480 let's stick on

00:28:55.500 the topic that we're on.

00:28:57.440 Again,

00:28:58.380 this is,

00:28:58.720 there's a quote,

00:28:59.300 distortions of white historians

00:29:01.220 that just can't accept. 0.94

00:29:02.340 That's racist.

00:29:03.060 Now,

00:29:03.140 that's racist.

00:29:03.720 No,

00:29:04.100 it's not racist.

00:29:04.680 It's true.

00:29:05.280 You're implying that

00:29:05.560 a white historian 0.94

00:29:06.880 is incapable 0.91

00:29:07.520 of approaching the subject

00:29:08.700 from an impartial perspective,

00:29:10.020 which means that

00:29:10.860 you must have

00:29:11.320 an equally biased perspective 0.84

00:29:12.660 as a black historian.

00:29:13.480 Look at the history

00:29:14.080 of white historians

00:29:14.760 which you're parroting right now

00:29:15.900 and it will tell you the truth.

00:29:16.940 It's not me looking at it

00:29:17.840 and going,

00:29:18.200 well,

00:29:18.520 I remember I was in A-level history.

00:29:20.060 I did this.

00:29:20.440 I did the Industrial Revolution 0.76

00:29:21.180 at A-level history.

00:29:21.980 Got an A

00:29:22.320 because I wrote a paper

00:29:23.520 that said white people are great.

00:29:24.800 That's basically the argument

00:29:25.680 that you just made.

00:29:26.620 And when I asked my teacher,

00:29:27.560 I said,

00:29:27.740 what about slavery?

00:29:28.520 Which at the time,

00:29:29.240 I didn't really know much about.

00:29:30.160 I was like,

00:29:31.000 who knows?

00:29:31.740 What happened at the same time?

00:29:32.900 Is it a coincidence?

00:29:34.020 His response was,

00:29:35.620 that's not in the textbook.

00:29:37.280 Let's never talk about it again.

00:29:38.620 And this is the classic nonsense

00:29:39.940 you get from historians like this. 0.71

00:29:41.620 How could you possibly say,

00:29:43.100 let me finish.

00:29:45.340 Let me finish.

00:29:45.860 You talk about

00:29:46.700 we had financial stability.

00:29:48.740 Talk about the stock market.

00:29:50.080 Gold and silver,

00:29:50.820 the first two things

00:29:51.580 which are so important

00:29:52.440 to European development.

00:29:53.300 Where did gold and silver come from?

00:29:54.460 I don't remember

00:29:54.920 there being any gold and silver

00:29:55.880 just lying around Europe.

00:29:57.540 No historian worth their salt

00:29:59.460 would say that

00:30:00.240 how they tend to whitewash

00:30:02.080 is they call it

00:30:02.940 the Atlantic system.

00:30:04.320 Going over to the West,

00:30:05.300 finding the Americas,

00:30:06.400 no historian worth their salt

00:30:07.760 would not say

00:30:08.380 that that is the fundamental

00:30:10.080 turning point

00:30:10.780 of Western development.

00:30:12.140 It would be impossible not to.

00:30:14.360 Unless you're just going

00:30:15.080 to close your eyes

00:30:15.640 and go,

00:30:16.000 na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

00:30:17.460 And say it's just things in Europe.

00:30:19.200 Like I said,

00:30:19.880 the key commodity

00:30:20.520 is not just sugar.

00:30:21.240 I didn't just list sugar.

00:30:21.960 I told you,

00:30:22.480 gold, silver,

00:30:23.560 tobacco,

00:30:23.780 indigo, sugar

00:30:24.700 and cotton.

00:30:25.440 And no,

00:30:25.880 you can't forget cottons

00:30:26.720 because it's American slave produced.

00:30:28.240 Well, no, no, wait.

00:30:28.780 It's important

00:30:29.220 because it's not just Bristol

00:30:30.500 and Liverpool,

00:30:31.440 whole cities

00:30:32.100 that really wouldn't exist.

00:30:33.880 Manchester doesn't exist

00:30:35.320 unless there's a canal

00:30:36.840 that goes from Liverpool

00:30:37.960 to Manchester

00:30:38.700 and brings all this

00:30:39.560 slave produced cotton.

00:30:40.620 Birmingham,

00:30:41.080 where I'm from,

00:30:41.820 the guns for slavery,

00:30:43.280 the chains for slavery,

00:30:44.520 the whole economy

00:30:45.400 is underpinned by this.

00:30:46.620 You can't just take off

00:30:47.520 the Atlantic system

00:30:48.320 and say it doesn't matter

00:30:49.400 because there weren't

00:30:49.900 that many slave ships.

00:30:50.880 That's again,

00:30:51.480 no good arguments.

00:30:52.780 All we're getting is,

00:30:53.940 well, let's discount,

00:30:55.040 let's forget about it.

00:30:56.140 And if what you're saying is true,

00:30:59.520 why would the British government

00:31:00.940 give the biggest bailout

00:31:02.120 it's ever given

00:31:02.880 because the only comparable bailout

00:31:04.360 is to the banks,

00:31:05.320 but that was apparently a loan,

00:31:06.380 right?

00:31:06.500 We got that back.

00:31:07.360 There's no comparison

00:31:08.120 to the 100 billion,

00:31:09.040 40% of the governments,

00:31:11.680 40% of the governments.

00:31:12.500 There are so many areas

00:31:13.140 of what you're saying.

00:31:14.020 No, no, it's not.

00:31:15.420 No, no, no, no.

00:31:15.980 You asked the question,

00:31:17.240 so now you let them answer.

00:31:18.340 You said,

00:31:18.680 why would they do that?

00:31:19.240 You know that's the truth.

00:31:21.580 40% of government income

00:31:22.480 to bail out slave owners 0.79

00:31:23.400 if it wasn't a big deal.

00:31:25.080 So firstly,

00:31:25.920 it wasn't the biggest loan

00:31:26.880 ever given.

00:31:27.460 There was much more money.

00:31:28.360 No, it wasn't a loan at all.

00:31:29.520 Hold on.

00:31:29.900 You're right.

00:31:30.300 It wasn't the biggest payment

00:31:32.340 ever given.

00:31:32.940 It was far more done

00:31:33.600 in a single year

00:31:34.240 of the Napoleonic War

00:31:35.140 than it was done.

00:31:35.840 And same thing with the Crimean War.

00:31:38.740 The other point to make is,

00:31:40.460 of course,

00:31:40.760 this is an issue

00:31:41.420 of realpolitik, right?

00:31:43.320 We don't live in an idealist world.

00:31:45.060 We have to deal with reality

00:31:46.000 on the ground.

00:31:46.900 The House of Commons

00:31:47.580 was not the full functioning

00:31:48.660 democracy it is today.

00:31:50.120 If there was any hope

00:31:51.300 of securing freedom

00:31:52.840 for the slaves,

00:31:54.100 it had to be done

00:31:55.180 through payments.

00:31:55.900 There was no other means

00:31:56.940 for the British state

00:31:57.820 to get it through Parliament.

00:31:59.120 Why not?

00:31:59.880 If it was a moral issue.

00:32:01.040 I'm not sure if you're aware

00:32:01.740 of rotten boroughs

00:32:02.500 and what Parliament.

00:32:04.580 If it was a moral issue,

00:32:05.200 it was a borough.

00:32:05.700 Yes, sometimes you have abolition,

00:32:07.660 but you still have,

00:32:08.420 unfortunately,

00:32:09.060 corruption in the 18th

00:32:10.460 and 19th centuries.

00:32:11.240 You still had a degree

00:32:11.900 of corruption

00:32:12.320 in the British Parliament.

00:32:13.520 Still far less

00:32:14.320 than anywhere else,

00:32:15.480 but it was still enough there

00:32:16.640 that you had to essentially ensure

00:32:18.160 that people were paid for it.

00:32:19.720 It's not pleasant,

00:32:20.520 but that was the only way.

00:32:22.140 So what would you have rather done?

00:32:23.320 No money would have been paid

00:32:24.520 and the slaves would have remained

00:32:25.900 in bondage

00:32:26.860 for the foreseeable future

00:32:28.020 until enough

00:32:28.980 of the abolitionist movement

00:32:29.960 was strong enough

00:32:30.540 to actually convey everybody.

00:32:32.200 That needed to be done.

00:32:34.000 But your other arguments

00:32:35.060 are so nonsensical.

00:32:36.220 Let me address them.

00:32:37.200 For example,

00:32:38.380 by your argument,

00:32:40.140 Portugal and Spain

00:32:41.240 should have been

00:32:41.700 the first countries

00:32:42.480 to industrialise.

00:32:43.760 Spain was getting

00:32:44.560 all of the gold.

00:32:45.820 Portugal had double 0.98

00:32:46.860 the number of slaves

00:32:48.160 of Great Britain,

00:32:49.580 yet they became

00:32:50.420 economic backwaters.

00:32:52.280 Why was that?

00:32:53.460 France had seven times

00:32:55.700 the amount of coffee.

00:32:56.720 It had 17 times

00:32:58.180 the amount of sugar exported

00:32:59.860 and of indigo exported.

00:33:01.420 So indigo,

00:33:02.620 cotton,

00:33:03.460 sugar,

00:33:04.180 far more than Britain

00:33:05.660 got from Caribbean slaves.

00:33:08.920 They weren't the first

00:33:09.780 to industrialise.

00:33:11.060 It was Britain 0.92

00:33:11.540 that was the first

00:33:12.120 to industrialise.

00:33:13.440 And as a share

00:33:14.260 of the Portuguese economy,

00:33:15.820 the Brazilian Portuguese

00:33:17.280 slave trade

00:33:18.140 was far more lucrative

00:33:19.780 for the Portuguese economy

00:33:20.980 from the British economy.

00:33:22.360 They didn't industrialise.

00:33:23.860 Look at the United States

00:33:24.700 of America.

00:33:25.600 The Deep South,

00:33:26.440 which were the slave-owning states, 0.99

00:33:27.840 they didn't industrialise.

00:33:29.260 It was the emancipated north

00:33:31.120 of the country

00:33:32.040 that was the first

00:33:33.000 to industrialise.

00:33:34.300 Now, look at all those examples

00:33:36.160 and don't get sidetracked here.

00:33:37.480 We're talking about Spain,

00:33:38.560 France, Portugal,

00:33:39.420 all of this.

00:33:39.820 How come those countries

00:33:42.220 didn't become the first

00:33:43.100 to industrialise

00:33:43.800 when I've clearly given you

00:33:45.200 the real reasons

00:33:46.140 of the agrarian revolution,

00:33:47.380 the political stability

00:33:48.300 and the glorious institutions

00:33:50.080 of Britain?

00:33:50.700 So, for one,

00:33:51.840 look, unlike you,

00:33:52.920 I won't say

00:33:53.620 that there aren't other things

00:33:54.600 which are important.

00:33:55.440 So I'm not saying

00:33:55.940 there aren't other things.

00:33:56.880 Like I said,

00:33:57.220 I did A-Level History.

00:33:58.000 I can give you a list

00:33:59.160 of other things

00:33:59.680 which are important.

00:34:00.460 But it is impossible

00:34:01.300 to discount

00:34:01.880 how much

00:34:03.140 that slavery meant.

00:34:04.700 And the fact that

00:34:05.220 Portugal and Spain

00:34:06.240 don't,

00:34:06.620 they do,

00:34:07.000 A, they do develop,

00:34:07.640 they just don't develop

00:34:08.080 at the same pace.

00:34:08.920 So if you're going to compare,

00:34:09.940 it's interesting,

00:34:10.400 now you don't want to compare,

00:34:11.440 compare Portugal's

00:34:12.120 and France's economy

00:34:13.080 to Africa

00:34:13.720 and the Caribbean's economy,

00:34:14.720 you'd say there's

00:34:15.260 a massive difference.

00:34:16.140 So, yes,

00:34:16.880 I'm not saying

00:34:17.440 it's just slavery

00:34:18.240 is the only reason

00:34:19.100 why Britain became,

00:34:20.020 Britain had the largest

00:34:20.720 empire in the world.

00:34:21.500 Britain had naval supremacy.

00:34:22.760 There's lots of reasons

00:34:23.340 why Britain developed.

00:34:24.680 But the point is

00:34:25.540 you can't discount slavery

00:34:26.860 and the massive impact

00:34:28.140 that it had

00:34:28.580 and you also can't discount

00:34:29.800 the wealth

00:34:30.560 that very clearly

00:34:31.500 is traceable

00:34:32.260 and exists today

00:34:32.960 from there

00:34:33.420 and the poverty

00:34:34.280 that is very clearly

00:34:35.220 and traceable today.

00:34:36.680 And so reparation

00:34:37.600 is simply saying,

00:34:38.180 look,

00:34:38.360 there's a debt

00:34:38.800 that was owed then,

00:34:39.640 which you actually accept

00:34:40.500 in your argument

00:34:41.060 and was never paid,

00:34:42.660 hence it should be paid.

00:34:44.220 Like I said,

00:34:45.020 no good argument.

00:34:45.400 But we're in agreement

00:34:46.100 because I'm not discounting

00:34:47.660 the contribution of slavery.

00:34:49.480 What I'm saying is

00:34:50.260 it's not massive

00:34:51.100 as you're making out.

00:34:52.500 You are saying

00:34:52.920 that it was a massive involvement.

00:34:54.220 It was a precondition.

00:34:55.060 You just said

00:34:55.080 that whole cities exist

00:34:56.480 because of slavery.

00:34:57.120 It doesn't matter.

00:34:57.860 It was a precondition.

00:34:59.180 It was not a major contribution.

00:35:01.000 It was,

00:35:01.260 as I said,

00:35:01.740 3% of the national income

00:35:03.020 akin to barley and hops.

00:35:06.940 That's my point.

00:35:07.860 So...

00:35:08.100 It is not...

00:35:08.740 And of course,

00:35:09.200 and the people

00:35:09.980 that I've seen you quote

00:35:10.880 before,

00:35:11.260 Beckles and so forth,

00:35:12.060 they predicate the entire thing

00:35:13.660 on the value of the slave trade

00:35:15.500 and on the value of sugar

00:35:17.280 as being essential.

00:35:18.260 And I'm saying...

00:35:19.060 I'm taking the same thing.

00:35:19.660 Those are Marxist interpretations

00:35:21.280 and later historians,

00:35:22.600 David Elton,

00:35:24.200 Stanley Egerton,

00:35:24.980 have all disproved it.

00:35:26.960 We're at the risk

00:35:27.600 of losing the entire audience

00:35:29.020 with our dissent into academia.

00:35:30.780 Interesting as it is

00:35:31.720 from both of you

00:35:32.320 and I really appreciate it.

00:35:33.740 But just coming back

00:35:35.060 to sort of

00:35:35.820 the more practical level,

00:35:37.480 one question I always had,

00:35:39.080 and this is a genuine question,

00:35:40.440 right?

00:35:40.660 So if I'm totally wrong,

00:35:41.860 please correct me.

00:35:42.500 But as far as I understand,

00:35:45.380 it was so dangerous

00:35:47.780 for European purchases

00:35:49.820 of slaves in Africa

00:35:51.400 to go ashore

00:35:52.380 that almost the entirety

00:35:54.320 of the slaves

00:35:55.020 who were bought in Africa

00:35:56.500 were sold by Africans.

00:35:58.660 And that's always,

00:35:59.760 to those people

00:36:00.460 who are aware of that,

00:36:01.260 which is actually

00:36:01.620 not that many people,

00:36:03.040 that's always kind of,

00:36:03.920 to me,

00:36:04.220 well,

00:36:04.880 even if we were to pay...

00:36:05.960 Like,

00:36:06.240 who should be...

00:36:07.660 Well,

00:36:07.840 shouldn't be the people

00:36:08.640 who sold and captured

00:36:09.680 those slaves 0.66

00:36:10.100 be paying reparations?

00:36:11.120 Do you see

00:36:11.520 what I'm getting at?

00:36:12.060 No,

00:36:12.360 I don't.

00:36:12.740 You don't?

00:36:13.100 This is, again,

00:36:13.580 a terrible,

00:36:14.140 terrible argument.

00:36:15.120 I'm just genuinely asking.

00:36:16.340 I don't know what the right answer is.

00:36:16.900 Because there were

00:36:17.460 Jewish collaborators

00:36:18.120 in the Holocaust,

00:36:18.740 does that mean

00:36:19.080 that we should blame

00:36:19.660 Jewish people? 0.52

00:36:20.280 Like, 1.00

00:36:20.540 it's a silly argument. 0.85

00:36:21.580 No, 0.94

00:36:21.780 hold on,

00:36:22.140 hold on.

00:36:22.520 It's 100% the same.

00:36:24.400 We're going to say,

00:36:25.040 no,

00:36:25.220 we should go

00:36:25.760 to claim the Jewish people.

00:36:26.720 But that's not a fair comparison.

00:36:28.440 If the Holocaust 0.94

00:36:29.640 had been conducted

00:36:30.800 by the Jews,

00:36:32.560 that would be

00:36:33.020 a very different conversation.

00:36:34.400 But slavery

00:36:34.760 wasn't conducted

00:36:35.340 by Africans.

00:36:36.460 Well,

00:36:36.840 they sold all the slaves,

00:36:38.060 so it was.

00:36:38.680 They kept slaves themselves.

00:36:40.520 Well,

00:36:40.780 no,

00:36:41.000 A,

00:36:41.220 again,

00:36:41.520 there's a huge difference

00:36:42.140 between it.

00:36:42.500 It's still slavery.

00:36:43.360 No,

00:36:43.900 it's not.

00:36:44.120 No,

00:36:44.220 no,

00:36:44.320 no,

00:36:44.420 no.

00:36:44.580 I think it would have

00:36:45.360 definitions.

00:36:45.820 It's really,

00:36:46.240 really important.

00:36:46.840 What Europe did

00:36:47.360 was a new thing.

00:36:48.480 It was not.

00:36:49.140 Yes,

00:36:49.360 it was.

00:36:49.820 Seattle slavery.

00:36:50.720 I'm sorry.

00:36:51.280 In the Islamic slave trade,

00:36:52.460 they were involved in mining,

00:36:53.700 in agriculture,

00:36:54.480 in irrigation.

00:36:55.000 They were on plantations

00:36:56.760 in Africa.

00:36:57.300 In the Islamic slave trade,

00:36:58.140 they also had rights

00:36:58.960 and could be free.

00:36:59.100 You're lying to the public,

00:37:00.280 though.

00:37:00.340 They were on royal plantations.

00:37:03.860 Bilal,

00:37:04.300 the person who does

00:37:04.960 the first call for prayer

00:37:05.800 in the Quran,

00:37:07.560 is an enslaved African.

00:37:09.120 They had rights.

00:37:09.760 You could become free.

00:37:10.580 And in African slavery, 0.88

00:37:11.380 in terms of what you're talking about,

00:37:12.480 what it was actually just said

00:37:13.320 was African slavery 0.55

00:37:15.340 was much more like serfdom,

00:37:16.780 where you were part of the family,

00:37:17.620 you had freedom

00:37:17.960 at a certain time.

00:37:18.780 It's actually much more comparable

00:37:20.080 to serfdom

00:37:20.660 than it is to shatter slavery.

00:37:22.060 Shatter slavery is dehumanizing.

00:37:23.760 It is literally

00:37:24.260 the taking away

00:37:24.940 of every single right.

00:37:25.980 And it's quite likely

00:37:26.780 that the people who sold

00:37:27.860 who didn't actually know

00:37:29.020 what they were doing.

00:37:29.700 Because remember,

00:37:30.040 African slavery 0.87

00:37:30.720 doesn't actually take place

00:37:31.860 mostly on the continent.

00:37:33.120 They go far away.

00:37:33.940 You're ignoring all the slaves

00:37:35.120 who died being kidnapped

00:37:36.980 and transported to the coast.

00:37:39.100 Again,

00:37:39.440 the point here is,

00:37:41.120 of course there is.

00:37:41.660 There was huge rebellions.

00:37:43.700 So yes,

00:37:44.260 there were some Africans,

00:37:45.460 100%,

00:37:46.100 who were complicit.

00:37:48.180 There were whole kingdoms

00:37:49.000 that essentially grew

00:37:49.900 out of the idea

00:37:50.760 of we walk trade

00:37:51.560 enslaved people.

00:37:52.780 But this was because

00:37:53.740 of the conditions

00:37:54.640 that were imposed.

00:37:56.180 I'm not saying

00:37:57.140 they're not blameless.

00:37:58.200 You're not hearing me

00:37:58.820 say they're blameless.

00:37:59.700 But again,

00:38:00.660 if you look at the calculations

00:38:02.140 for reparations,

00:38:03.320 they are based largely

00:38:04.480 not on harm.

00:38:05.560 They are based largely

00:38:06.400 on paid labor

00:38:07.340 and the wealth gap,

00:38:08.660 which is there.

00:38:09.620 And there's nobody in Africa 1.00

00:38:11.040 who benefited today

00:38:12.180 from the wealth.

00:38:12.300 So your argument

00:38:13.620 is actually

00:38:14.820 the reparations are owed

00:38:15.980 because the slaves

00:38:17.420 that were taken from Africa

00:38:18.480 by European nations,

00:38:19.840 they were used

00:38:20.680 to produce things

00:38:21.820 and therefore

00:38:22.920 their descendants

00:38:23.740 are owed effectively

00:38:25.060 a chunk of that wealth

00:38:26.380 that was produced

00:38:27.040 using their labor.

00:38:27.760 That's your argument.

00:38:28.700 And plus,

00:38:29.780 again,

00:38:30.080 and I want to stress here,

00:38:30.940 Africa overall,

00:38:32.940 yes,

00:38:33.120 you can find

00:38:33.580 the minimum,

00:38:34.400 I mean,

00:38:34.620 in terms of the population

00:38:36.500 of Africa,

00:38:36.960 how many were involved

00:38:37.640 in trading people?

00:38:38.460 That is a minuscule number.

00:38:39.820 That is a minuscule number.

00:38:41.960 So the actual impact

00:38:43.220 of slavery in Africa

00:38:43.840 was to impoverish Africa. 0.90

00:38:45.860 So I'm saying

00:38:46.660 that the basis

00:38:47.320 of reparations claims

00:38:48.100 are one,

00:38:48.700 the unpaid labor,

00:38:49.440 which is very,

00:38:50.040 very simple,

00:38:50.520 there's hundreds

00:38:50.960 of years of paid labor,

00:38:51.900 two,

00:38:52.180 the wealth that has accumulated

00:38:53.100 and the damage

00:38:53.900 that was done economically,

00:38:55.240 which is still there.

00:38:56.500 You can still see today,

00:38:57.640 which is why

00:38:58.080 you don't go to the Arab slave trade,

00:38:59.460 you don't go to the few Africans 1.00

00:39:00.700 you had,

00:39:01.260 where is the money?

00:39:01.860 So Rafe,

00:39:02.220 on that,

00:39:02.980 is that not a fair point?

00:39:04.140 If we could find some way,

00:39:05.980 I know it's probably,

00:39:06.860 the practicalities of this

00:39:08.020 are difficult,

00:39:08.620 admittedly,

00:39:09.080 but if we could find some way

00:39:10.380 to go,

00:39:11.120 well,

00:39:11.220 look,

00:39:11.640 your great,

00:39:12.300 great,

00:39:12.580 great grandfather

00:39:13.140 wasn't slave,

00:39:13.860 taken from Africa,

00:39:15.380 used as a laborer,

00:39:18.100 X amount of wealth

00:39:18.980 and we are now,

00:39:20.760 you know,

00:39:21.000 we've developed this magical system

00:39:22.460 to trace that back

00:39:23.480 and to be able to give you

00:39:25.160 X percent of his labor.

00:39:27.240 Would that not be

00:39:28.020 a good thing to do?

00:39:29.400 No,

00:39:29.700 not at all,

00:39:30.220 because you're talking about

00:39:32.480 sums that are far smaller

00:39:33.780 than what you're discussing here.

00:39:36.140 But also,

00:39:36.940 of course,

00:39:37.440 there is no,

00:39:38.380 you know,

00:39:38.680 it doesn't have such a rosy-colored picture

00:39:40.320 of what it was like

00:39:41.080 in Africa for slaves.

00:39:42.240 You know,

00:39:42.380 just in the kingdom of Dahomey,

00:39:44.500 you had annual sacrifices

00:39:45.660 where you had up to 4,000 slaves

00:39:47.580 murdered in human sacrifice

00:39:49.380 rituals that were done there.

00:39:50.880 What about Israel 0.79

00:39:51.540 and Gazele? 0.57

00:39:52.080 Not at all.

00:39:53.100 You talk about the Islamics, 1.00

00:39:54.660 no,

00:39:54.880 but you're trying to paint this picture

00:39:56.020 that somehow slavery,

00:39:57.180 there are different gradations

00:39:58.020 of slavery.

00:39:59.060 In the Islamic slave trade,

00:40:00.400 you had millions of young boys

00:40:02.060 were captured.

00:40:03.100 Sixty percent of those millions

00:40:04.440 of young boys died

00:40:05.440 because they were castrated brutally

00:40:07.000 without anesthetic,

00:40:07.840 of course,

00:40:08.300 and died from that.

00:40:09.380 This idea that somehow

00:40:10.380 they were walking about

00:40:11.280 drinking mint tulips or whatever.

00:40:13.340 Nobody said that.

00:40:13.820 Yes,

00:40:14.040 you did,

00:40:14.400 actually.

00:40:14.720 I said it was different.

00:40:15.900 I didn't say it was good.

00:40:16.640 So this is to be clear

00:40:17.900 what I said.

00:40:18.400 I didn't say it was different.

00:40:19.320 I hear that is what you said.

00:40:21.260 But if you're going to create

00:40:22.600 your formula,

00:40:23.220 then who's going to pay for this?

00:40:24.300 Out of a population

00:40:25.120 of millions of people,

00:40:27.540 there were only

00:40:27.920 a few thousand slave owners.

00:40:29.640 The majority of British people

00:40:30.760 in this country

00:40:31.340 descend from people

00:40:32.660 who lived lives

00:40:33.440 of abject poverty

00:40:34.340 akin to serfdom.

00:40:35.640 Why should their tax money

00:40:36.680 go to paying reparations?

00:40:38.760 You know,

00:40:39.040 over 16% of this country

00:40:40.540 is now foreign-born.

00:40:41.620 Why should somebody

00:40:42.180 who was born in Malaysia

00:40:43.480 or Korea pay reparations?

00:40:45.300 What about Jamaicans 0.99

00:40:46.640 living here now?

00:40:47.440 Why should they pay

00:40:48.140 their tax money

00:40:48.840 to people in Trinidad

00:40:49.680 for reparations?

00:40:51.120 I mean,

00:40:51.440 the whole idea is absurd.

00:40:53.160 As I say,

00:40:54.000 you can't have

00:40:54.700 intergenerational trauma

00:40:55.620 for eight generations.

00:40:56.820 It's simply absurd.

00:40:58.120 You need to take responsibility

00:40:59.340 and, of course,

00:41:00.560 look to the great success stories

00:41:02.040 of Africa in the past.

00:41:03.660 Look, for example,

00:41:04.600 you know,

00:41:04.820 there are reasons

00:41:05.420 for Africa's poverty right now

00:41:06.860 and it's corruption.

00:41:09.140 It's a failure

00:41:09.640 to manage the economy well.

00:41:10.820 There are only two countries

00:41:12.560 in Africa

00:41:13.020 which are success stories

00:41:14.460 that rank in the top tier

00:41:15.780 of the Human Development Index.

00:41:17.960 That's Mauritius

00:41:18.700 and the Seychelles.

00:41:20.360 Why is that?

00:41:20.840 Because they've got

00:41:21.360 good government,

00:41:22.080 good democracy,

00:41:22.900 they have institutions

00:41:23.820 that are respected

00:41:24.800 and well-supported

00:41:25.680 and they've allowed

00:41:26.920 immigration into the country.

00:41:28.320 So there are lots of Indians

00:41:29.100 in the economy

00:41:29.660 who are helping the economy.

00:41:31.080 Contrast that to what happened

00:41:32.200 to South Africa.

00:41:33.780 Contrast that to what happened

00:41:34.960 with Zimbabwe.

00:41:35.300 So why is it ever again?

00:41:36.920 With the white minority 0.89

00:41:38.180 rules in Africa?

00:41:38.860 With Zimbabwe. 0.94

00:41:39.380 Look at the economy.

00:41:40.300 As soon as you

00:41:41.020 as soon as you

00:41:41.680 turf out one group of

00:41:42.740 one ethnic minority. 0.99

00:41:44.140 Oh so we need non-black people 1.00

00:41:44.620 in Africa as a solution? 0.96

00:41:45.760 I'm just like

00:41:46.340 the actual racist ideas

00:41:47.900 coming out here.

00:41:48.260 Racist ideas?

00:41:48.760 I'm surprised.

00:41:49.280 Are you denying that

00:41:50.020 Zimbabwe's GDP

00:41:51.580 is the way better?

00:41:53.600 What happened to Uganda

00:41:54.440 after the Asian Indians 0.99

00:41:55.600 after the Asians 1.00

00:41:56.520 were kicked out?

00:41:57.680 What happened to Uganda before?

00:41:58.180 What happened to South Africa

00:41:59.500 in recent years?

00:42:01.300 What's happened to Zimbabwe?

00:42:02.580 Hey,

00:42:02.880 again,

00:42:03.880 let's not lie.

00:42:05.340 South Africa

00:42:05.660 is not kicking people out.

00:42:06.920 That's not what's happening at all.

00:42:07.900 South Africa

00:42:08.180 is actually still under the control

00:42:09.920 of most of the same Afrikaners.

00:42:11.240 Let's not lie.

00:42:12.240 The corruption.

00:42:13.100 I'm talking about the corruption.

00:42:14.580 Where does the corruption come from?

00:42:16.120 I'm sorry.

00:42:17.080 Next to one of the Congo. 0.99

00:42:18.500 And you talk about Africa.

00:42:20.080 For example,

00:42:20.540 the life expectancy in Africa,

00:42:22.220 you said it's 60.

00:42:22.980 It doubled

00:42:23.520 because of the arrival

00:42:24.720 of the Europeans 0.92

00:42:25.320 in the country.

00:42:26.060 Life expectancy

00:42:26.580 for thousands of years

00:42:27.700 had been 24 to 35

00:42:29.160 up to the 1850s,

00:42:32.440 1860s.

00:42:33.200 It was the same in 1850

00:42:34.600 as in 1550

00:42:35.740 as in 1450.

00:42:36.900 It was the same 0.52

00:42:37.520 since Europeans arrived 0.97

00:42:39.060 because of medicine,

00:42:40.480 vaccinations,

00:42:41.700 antibiotics,

00:42:42.660 clean water,

00:42:43.460 sanitation,

00:42:44.540 life expectancy doubled

00:42:45.660 and the Caribbean

00:42:46.660 was a beneficiary

00:42:47.460 of far more of that.

00:42:48.300 Life expectancy

00:42:48.860 in the Caribbean

00:42:49.400 is up to 15 years longer

00:42:51.160 than in West Africa.

00:42:52.460 The GDP

00:42:52.920 is over 10 times higher.

00:42:54.940 That's because

00:42:55.460 of the inheritance

00:42:56.120 that they got

00:42:56.600 from the British Empire.

00:42:57.840 That is,

00:42:58.960 I mean,

00:43:00.280 can I just be

00:43:00.740 really, really clear on this?

00:43:01.820 I think one of the things

00:43:02.560 which gets lost also

00:43:03.720 with reparation

00:43:04.280 of slavery campaigns

00:43:05.060 is the good ones

00:43:06.660 are not just about slavery.

00:43:08.320 It actually says,

00:43:09.120 so America, for example,

00:43:09.980 has a whole slavery

00:43:10.640 reparation campaign

00:43:11.760 which recognises slavery,

00:43:13.340 recognises Jim Crow,

00:43:14.220 recognises everything else.

00:43:15.620 As I said,

00:43:16.160 the knife wasn't pulled out.

00:43:17.340 So when you're looking

00:43:18.000 at someone like Africa,

00:43:19.160 slavery happens,

00:43:19.980 then colonialism happens.

00:43:21.080 So Africa is literally 0.81

00:43:22.580 underdeveloped by Europe.

00:43:24.180 So anything you say

00:43:24.800 about whether

00:43:25.660 life expectancy was bad,

00:43:26.520 it was underdeveloped.

00:43:27.600 Can I just get

00:43:28.120 underdeveloped before?

00:43:29.220 Hold on, hold on, hold on.

00:43:29.980 I want to let you talk

00:43:31.620 for a long time.

00:43:32.320 There's just a definition

00:43:33.260 I'd love to get from you

00:43:34.480 because it's a word

00:43:35.180 we hear a lot now,

00:43:35.920 colonialism.

00:43:36.940 What does that mean?

00:43:37.860 What is colonialism?

00:43:39.120 So colonialism is when

00:43:39.980 one country or entity

00:43:41.440 controls another one

00:43:42.460 for its own benefit.

00:43:43.620 And so Jamaica is a colony 0.90

00:43:45.480 of Britain from, what,

00:43:47.020 1655.

00:43:48.280 Everything that happens

00:43:49.500 in Jamaica is,

00:43:50.820 you could still argue today

00:43:52.060 because we now have

00:43:52.580 neocolonialism,

00:43:53.380 but colonialism,

00:43:54.220 everything happens in Jamaica,

00:43:55.240 everything happens in Nigeria

00:43:56.000 when it's colonised,

00:43:57.320 it's to the benefit of Britain.

00:43:59.160 And so therefore,

00:43:59.800 places are underdeveloped.

00:44:01.360 So the truth is,

00:44:01.900 we have no idea

00:44:02.740 what would happen

00:44:03.260 if Europe hadn't come

00:44:04.300 into Africa,

00:44:05.120 did the slave trade,

00:44:05.880 the colonialism,

00:44:06.400 we have no idea

00:44:06.940 what happened.

00:44:07.120 Is that not a fair point?

00:44:08.460 No.

00:44:09.340 We do know.

00:44:10.440 We have Ethiopia

00:44:11.640 and we have Liberia.

00:44:13.180 Ethiopia and Liberia

00:44:14.280 were never colonised.

00:44:15.680 Liberia was made up

00:44:17.820 by Africa.

00:44:18.000 They were independent nations.

00:44:19.820 And I'm sorry,

00:44:20.300 but Ethiopia and Liberia

00:44:21.420 still remain

00:44:22.140 in the lowest tier

00:44:23.500 of developed countries

00:44:24.700 in Africa.

00:44:25.000 It's my mistake.

00:44:26.660 I shouldn't have brought Rafe in.

00:44:27.620 I apologise.

00:44:28.440 You carry on.

00:44:29.080 Liberia is actually

00:44:29.700 made up by America. 0.70

00:44:30.780 So let's not pretend

00:44:31.320 that Liberia has this long history.

00:44:33.120 Ethiopia is the perfect example 1.00

00:44:34.820 of being a country

00:44:35.660 surrounded by other

00:44:36.480 colonial countries.

00:44:37.360 So Ethiopia may well 1.00

00:44:38.460 have been independent,

00:44:40.040 but a country

00:44:40.760 can't by itself develop.

00:44:42.060 If it's surrounded by,

00:44:42.900 it's basically a colony.

00:44:44.060 And actually,

00:44:44.340 Ethiopia is one of the,

00:44:45.260 in terms of what we call

00:44:46.080 neocolonialism there,

00:44:47.440 which is after formal colonialism ends,

00:44:49.880 yes, you have governments,

00:44:51.100 but they are puppet governments.

00:44:52.600 In fact,

00:44:52.900 many times installed by the West,

00:44:54.380 and that's where the corruption

00:44:55.180 actually comes from,

00:44:56.240 not us,

00:44:56.800 from puppet governments

00:44:57.820 and you cannot,

00:44:58.540 I mean,

00:44:58.640 that would be just a lie

00:44:59.920 to pretend that's not the case.

00:45:01.700 For example,

00:45:02.140 in the Congo,

00:45:03.020 Joseph Mobutu

00:45:03.740 is literally installed

00:45:04.920 by the CIA and puppets

00:45:06.260 and then literally

00:45:07.280 destroys the country

00:45:08.280 and it comes to England,

00:45:09.480 comes to America,

00:45:11.080 flies around in private jets

00:45:12.040 and steals billions

00:45:12.600 upon billions

00:45:13.040 upon billions

00:45:13.440 with the consent

00:45:14.860 of both the USA

00:45:15.840 and the United Kingdom

00:45:16.860 in Europe, etc.

00:45:17.820 So the neocolonialism

00:45:18.700 is when we have that,

00:45:19.760 it continues.

00:45:20.920 So I'd argue,

00:45:21.380 actually,

00:45:21.920 Ethiopia is one of the worst countries

00:45:23.140 for neocolonialism,

00:45:24.020 because it was surrounded

00:45:24.900 wherever else.

00:45:25.400 So the point is,

00:45:26.600 don't just look at slavery

00:45:27.480 as separate,

00:45:28.060 look at that history

00:45:28.780 and tell me anywhere

00:45:29.780 on this line,

00:45:30.580 from slavery

00:45:31.140 to colonialism

00:45:31.900 to neocolonialism

00:45:32.960 or racism,

00:45:33.780 where has this debt

00:45:34.740 that you say

00:45:35.420 and acknowledge

00:45:36.000 should have been paid,

00:45:37.120 where has it been paid?

00:45:37.960 And not only has it not been paid,

00:45:39.540 more things have been

00:45:40.360 piled onto it.

00:45:41.280 Third world debt,

00:45:41.880 for example,

00:45:42.600 piled onto it.

00:45:43.440 All of these things

00:45:44.120 piled onto it.

00:45:44.820 So we actually have a position

00:45:45.780 where it's far worse

00:45:47.040 than just slavery.

00:45:47.940 It's slavery, 0.83

00:45:48.980 colonialism,

00:45:49.740 and where we are today.

00:45:50.520 Because it just piles up,

00:45:51.820 piles up,

00:45:52.160 piles up,

00:45:52.480 piles up.

00:45:52.800 And to pretend that it doesn't,

00:45:54.260 that's what I call psychosis. 0.63

00:45:55.440 The psychosis of whiteness.

00:45:57.320 There's this rosy-eyed view

00:45:58.920 of the world

00:45:59.340 where you can ignore

00:46:00.340 what's happened historically,

00:46:01.800 ignore the implications

00:46:02.840 which are very clear today.

00:46:04.960 And I've got a question for Rafe.

00:46:06.060 So,

00:46:06.680 my argument is very clear.

00:46:08.040 White supremacy 0.87

00:46:08.600 is what defines

00:46:09.720 the global economy.

00:46:10.600 Has done since,

00:46:11.360 this is a very clear argument.

00:46:12.460 If you look at a map

00:46:13.540 of global inequality today,

00:46:15.760 GDP per capita,

00:46:16.520 it will show you

00:46:17.540 that the poorest part

00:46:18.540 of the world 0.99

00:46:18.860 is where black people live, 0.95

00:46:20.260 so-called sub-Saharan Africa.

00:46:21.400 The richest part of the world

00:46:22.220 is where white people live,

00:46:23.340 the West.

00:46:23.920 And there's a hierarchy

00:46:24.720 in between.

00:46:25.500 So we literally have an economy

00:46:26.820 in the mold

00:46:28.160 of white supremacy

00:46:29.080 which is how I understand

00:46:30.740 the world.

00:46:31.480 Tell me how that can be true

00:46:32.820 if it's not.

00:46:33.800 Rick, before you do,

00:46:34.780 can I just jump in?

00:46:35.600 Please don't,

00:46:36.200 because I like to look.

00:46:37.140 Can I just explore this thing?

00:46:38.600 Because you say

00:46:39.660 the psychosis of white, 0.65

00:46:40.820 and look,

00:46:41.820 I think you've made

00:46:42.800 some interesting points

00:46:43.700 about slavery

00:46:45.500 and what's owed.

00:46:46.780 And, you know,

00:46:47.100 I actually said to you

00:46:47.820 before we started

00:46:48.460 that I think there's

00:46:49.300 some really strong arguments

00:46:50.400 on that point

00:46:51.000 that I agree with

00:46:52.380 to some extent.

00:46:53.420 When you start talking

00:46:54.520 about whiteness,

00:46:56.040 are you not including

00:46:57.180 a hell of a lot of people

00:46:58.460 who really had nothing

00:46:59.380 to do with any of this?

00:47:00.500 Like, my ancestors

00:47:01.400 are Russian.

00:47:02.980 That's where I'm from.

00:47:04.080 I happen to live

00:47:04.960 in this country,

00:47:05.540 but when you say

00:47:06.240 psychosis of whiteness,

00:47:07.600 now I'm part of this somehow.

00:47:09.300 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:47:10.280 Is it not a little bit,

00:47:12.080 is it a little bit

00:47:12.960 too broad?

00:47:13.940 If you're someone

00:47:15.300 who values free inquiry

00:47:16.700 and independent thinking,

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00:48:26.420 And now,

00:48:27.240 back to the show.

00:48:29.080 Whiteness is about 0.93

00:48:29.780 idea, not people.

00:48:30.740 So it's not really

00:48:31.360 about people.

00:48:31.920 I didn't say 0.99

00:48:32.680 psychosis of white people. 0.99

00:48:33.920 I said whiteness. 0.99

00:48:34.980 Whiteness is a way 1.00

00:48:36.560 of viewing the world

00:48:37.460 which is completely irrational,

00:48:38.960 deluded, and distorted

00:48:39.700 and leads to arguments

00:48:40.900 like on the other side

00:48:41.620 of the table. 0.89

00:48:42.320 Which all black people, 0.99

00:48:43.780 Asian people,

00:48:44.340 are just as likely

00:48:45.180 to engage in

00:48:46.260 as anybody else.

00:48:47.080 It's not about you individually.

00:48:48.260 Wait, so whiteness

00:48:48.900 has nothing to do

00:48:49.700 with skin colour?

00:48:50.580 Well, it's whiteness 0.97

00:48:52.220 comes from a system 0.80

00:48:52.820 of white supremacy.

00:48:53.400 As I said,

00:48:53.740 the world today,

00:48:54.500 can you explain

00:48:55.640 why the poorest part 0.95

00:48:56.820 of the world is black 0.99

00:48:57.280 and the richest part 0.97

00:48:57.720 of the world is white 0.97

00:48:58.160 and there's a hierarchy

00:48:59.100 in between?

00:48:59.980 It isn't about race?

00:49:01.000 It isn't about colonialism?

00:49:01.980 Maybe Ray Fonseca.

00:49:03.100 The poorest part of the world

00:49:03.960 was African

00:49:04.500 long before Europeans arrived.

00:49:06.100 How do you explain that?

00:49:06.780 Africa was ahead of Europe 1.00

00:49:07.800 before Africa was ahead 1.00

00:49:09.480 of Europe.

00:49:11.260 Look, you had

00:49:11.780 in the Middle Ages,

00:49:12.840 you had the Mali Empire 0.94

00:49:14.020 and Timbuktu

00:49:15.400 and all of that.

00:49:16.160 Ahead of Europe.

00:49:16.600 Yeah, but they didn't

00:49:17.620 develop beyond that.

00:49:18.660 Why is that?

00:49:19.160 Why was sub-Saharan... 0.94

00:49:19.700 Because slavery happened. 0.93

00:49:20.660 No, I'm sorry,

00:49:21.960 for heaven's sake.

00:49:23.040 We're talking about

00:49:23.660 West African slavery. 0.52

00:49:24.720 That didn't go

00:49:25.580 into Central Africa.

00:49:27.260 Let him answer now.

00:49:28.580 Come answer with the truth.

00:49:29.800 Well, I'm sorry.

00:49:30.720 This is the key point, right?

00:49:32.360 Africa is thousands 0.93

00:49:33.360 of years old.

00:49:35.460 Europeans didn't arrive there

00:49:37.100 to settle and colonize

00:49:38.780 until the scramble

00:49:39.700 for Africa

00:49:40.220 was when it really

00:49:40.800 took place in 1885.

00:49:43.120 As late as 1841,

00:49:44.440 you had a few trading

00:49:45.340 outposts on the coast.

00:49:46.320 Yes, there was a slave trade,

00:49:47.220 but we're talking about

00:49:47.940 when Europeans went inland 0.62

00:49:51.020 because people inland

00:49:52.080 in Africa

00:49:52.560 didn't have any knowledge

00:49:53.780 or experience

00:49:54.400 of what was happening

00:49:55.240 on the coast

00:49:56.040 and the slave markets. 0.99

00:49:57.180 Right?

00:49:57.380 Africa is huge.

00:50:00.240 They got their slaves

00:50:00.940 from West Africa.

00:50:01.680 They weren't getting

00:50:02.180 their slaves

00:50:03.000 from Central Africa.

00:50:04.740 Congo?

00:50:04.980 Where's Congo?

00:50:05.340 I'm talking about

00:50:06.300 the 1600s.

00:50:07.660 Where's Congo?

00:50:08.240 Congo?

00:50:08.900 Come on.

00:50:09.280 I am giving you

00:50:10.180 plenty of time.

00:50:11.160 I know you're both passionate

00:50:12.540 and I love it

00:50:13.260 and it's great.

00:50:14.100 And I'm just ready

00:50:15.120 for one sec.

00:50:15.780 I'm glad we're having

00:50:17.260 this debate.

00:50:17.980 I think it's great.

00:50:18.700 I want it to be informative

00:50:19.620 for the audience as well.

00:50:20.900 So it's better

00:50:21.400 if you don't talk

00:50:22.180 over each other.

00:50:22.760 You will get all the time

00:50:23.700 you need both of you.

00:50:24.520 In 1871 only 10% of Europe

00:50:27.740 of Africa had been colonized.

00:50:30.240 So why in 1871?

00:50:31.760 Africa had had thousands

00:50:32.660 of years.

00:50:33.260 Why was there no equivalent

00:50:34.900 of the cities of India?

00:50:36.700 This is a land mass

00:50:37.460 larger than Europe, 0.64

00:50:38.420 larger than India 0.99

00:50:39.140 and China combined.

00:50:40.460 Why wasn't there

00:50:41.120 the economic development?

00:50:42.200 Why was life expectancy

00:50:43.220 still as it was?

00:50:44.180 Why didn't you have

00:50:44.800 any of the scientific

00:50:45.560 advancement elsewhere?

00:50:47.060 Africa had been left 1.00

00:50:47.920 to its own devices.

00:50:49.180 It didn't come up with that.

00:50:50.220 The huge leap forwards

00:50:51.260 for Africa in terms

00:50:52.340 of life expectancy,

00:50:53.380 in terms of the economy

00:50:54.500 in terms of science

00:50:55.660 and medicine,

00:50:56.520 happened when the Europeans 0.98

00:50:57.500 were there.

00:50:58.300 And the Europeans 0.96

00:50:58.840 were not there for very long.

00:50:59.880 I think people often think

00:51:00.620 that this is centuries

00:51:01.440 of involvement in Africa.

00:51:02.860 We're talking about

00:51:03.680 a period of around

00:51:04.820 150 years ago

00:51:06.680 was when colonization

00:51:07.520 started.

00:51:08.440 And for most countries,

00:51:09.640 colonization was less

00:51:10.500 than a century.

00:51:11.260 You know,

00:51:11.420 it was from the 1880s

00:51:12.680 up to the 1950s

00:51:13.980 or 1970s.

00:51:15.100 Such a short period

00:51:16.180 of time.

00:51:16.860 But during that period,

00:51:18.320 what growth and development

00:51:19.420 happened in Africa,

00:51:21.040 for example?

00:51:21.560 Now, this is really

00:51:22.100 going to annoy Kehinde, 0.99

00:51:22.860 but nothing has done more

00:51:24.180 to lift the world

00:51:25.120 out of poverty

00:51:26.200 than capitalism

00:51:27.260 and colonialism.

00:51:28.820 Those have been

00:51:29.180 the two greatest forces

00:51:30.340 for life expectancy,

00:51:31.540 for living standards.

00:51:32.700 As Steven Pinker

00:51:33.500 from Harvard University

00:51:34.400 has said,

00:51:35.300 that life in pre-state societies

00:51:37.800 was incalculably

00:51:39.440 more brutal and harsh

00:51:40.920 than life today.

00:51:42.360 I mean, you know,

00:51:43.200 we're talking about cannibalism,

00:51:44.820 awful rituals taking place,

00:51:46.780 and you needed structured societies

00:51:48.640 to achieve that.

00:51:49.760 That's been achieved.

00:51:50.640 If you look at the successful states

00:51:52.380 that achieved that,

00:51:53.500 they were ones that usually

00:51:54.720 had a British imperial heritage.

00:51:56.400 So wherever you go in the world,

00:51:57.240 of all the empires,

00:51:58.060 those that had a British imperial heritage

00:51:59.380 came out the best

00:52:00.580 of the whole situation.

00:52:01.880 And you talk about Jamaica,

00:52:02.980 for example,

00:52:03.880 Jamaicans disagree with you.

00:52:05.260 And, you know,

00:52:05.580 a few years ago,

00:52:06.240 there was a poll of Jamaicans.

00:52:07.520 Sixty percent of Jamaicans

00:52:08.660 said that they wished

00:52:09.480 the British had never left.

00:52:11.020 They said British rule

00:52:11.820 was far better,

00:52:12.960 it was far less corrupt,

00:52:14.360 things worked better,

00:52:15.420 and they would prefer

00:52:16.120 the British to be in power.

00:52:17.720 And if you look

00:52:18.300 and you were asking about,

00:52:19.200 you said,

00:52:19.380 I can't say any examples,

00:52:20.820 if you look at the independent countries

00:52:22.460 in the Caribbean,

00:52:23.340 yes,

00:52:23.940 a lot of them

00:52:24.380 aren't doing very well economically.

00:52:26.160 The countries in the Caribbean

00:52:27.820 that are doing very well

00:52:28.840 are those which are dependencies

00:52:30.320 of France,

00:52:31.220 of Britain,

00:52:32.060 and of the United States.

00:52:33.160 Puerto Rico,

00:52:33.880 Guadalupe,

00:52:34.580 Martinique,

00:52:35.480 around the same size

00:52:36.300 as Puerto Rico,

00:52:37.240 as Barbados,

00:52:39.240 much more profitable.

00:52:40.380 Why?

00:52:40.760 Because they haven't been

00:52:41.760 victims of the corruption

00:52:43.580 and of the incompetent leadership,

00:52:46.540 the substandard 0.59

00:52:47.760 and unserious politicians

00:52:49.140 that you have there

00:52:49.940 who are often beating the drum

00:52:51.220 and looking for handouts

00:52:52.200 rather than dealing

00:52:52.960 with the country's problems

00:52:54.300 as they should be dealt with.

00:52:55.620 You've got it all the time you want.

00:52:56.780 I literally just explained this,

00:52:58.400 which is why,

00:52:58.760 this is why the West is like a psychologist,

00:53:00.020 because you give the argument

00:53:01.080 and it's not the way.

00:53:01.520 Come on,

00:53:01.840 you've got to stop throwing insults

00:53:03.080 and just make the argument.

00:53:04.580 I want to be clear,

00:53:05.500 it's not an insult.

00:53:06.460 It's not an insult.

00:53:07.140 I tell you,

00:53:07.980 our audience is very nuanced

00:53:09.880 and they're open to be persuaded,

00:53:11.800 but you've got to make the argument.

00:53:13.260 But I want to stress,

00:53:13.920 this is part of the argument,

00:53:15.320 because part of what I'm trying to tell you

00:53:16.460 is it doesn't matter what we say

00:53:17.940 and we talk about debate

00:53:19.160 and you want to come to,

00:53:20.060 it's not going to happen, right?

00:53:21.280 Because we're just,

00:53:21.980 we're talking different languages.

00:53:22.620 Well, you two are never going to agree.

00:53:23.960 That's why you're here.

00:53:25.480 But hold on, hold on.

00:53:27.700 You're coming at this

00:53:28.880 from two very different perspectives,

00:53:30.640 but the reason I brought you together

00:53:31.940 is not because I thought you and Rafe

00:53:33.600 would sit down around the table

00:53:34.780 and eventually agree.

00:53:35.780 That's never going to happen.

00:53:37.140 The reason I brought you together

00:53:38.180 is there's a million and a half people

00:53:40.380 watching potentially, right?

00:53:42.220 And a lot of them haven't made their mind up

00:53:44.340 about this issue at all.

00:53:46.060 They don't know,

00:53:46.880 as I don't know what they think.

00:53:48.760 So you have an opportunity to persuade them.

00:53:51.680 So the reason I say the word insult,

00:53:53.520 maybe you don't mean it that way,

00:53:54.940 but if you say to the person watching this,

00:53:57.160 well, you've got psychosis,

00:53:59.100 it's not that persuasive.

00:54:01.020 Do you know what I mean?

00:54:01.980 I'm just making it plain.

00:54:03.160 Like I don't know how else to tell you,

00:54:04.260 but to make it plain.

00:54:04.900 Persuade me, explain it to me.

00:54:06.260 But look, as I said,

00:54:07.520 the idea that,

00:54:09.000 so Rafe starts off with this point,

00:54:11.100 which I already mentioned, right?

00:54:12.780 Colonialism.

00:54:13.680 The reason that Europe doesn't colonize Africa 0.98

00:54:15.440 is it can't.

00:54:16.320 Not because they don't want to.

00:54:17.480 It's not possible.

00:54:18.420 It doesn't have the capability.

00:54:19.300 But his argument is Africa was poor

00:54:21.240 before the Europeans got there. 0.53

00:54:22.820 And this is where it's simply not true.

00:54:24.880 When Europe comes, 0.65

00:54:26.560 when Europe turns to Africa, 0.74

00:54:27.800 Africa is ahead. 0.99

00:54:28.960 There are more books in Timbuktu,

00:54:30.420 one library in Timbuktu,

00:54:31.600 than there are in the whole of Europe.

00:54:32.960 This is one of the biggest lies in history.

00:54:34.580 Europe, Africa is not behind. 0.98

00:54:36.180 Europe can't actually colonize Africa

00:54:38.200 because it doesn't have the capability to do it.

00:54:39.920 It's not possible, right?

00:54:41.140 Is that just one example?

00:54:42.400 Or are you saying the whole continent

00:54:43.380 is more developed?

00:54:44.840 I mean, not every part of the continent,

00:54:45.960 but if you're going to say Africa as a whole

00:54:47.020 is more developed...

00:54:47.600 Well, we're quite ignorant about African history,

00:54:49.480 I would say.

00:54:50.040 So can you tell us more about that?

00:54:51.640 Generally, you're talking about the Mali Empire.

00:54:53.800 You're talking about technologically,

00:54:55.260 in terms of reading,

00:54:57.220 it's just ahead.

00:54:57.740 There's no doubt about it.

00:54:58.500 Technologically?

00:54:59.060 Technologically.

00:54:59.740 Like what technology is?

00:55:00.840 So the Moors go into Europe from North Africa 1.00

00:55:04.980 and bring in things like...

00:55:07.240 Bring in many things.

00:55:08.380 Toilet paper.

00:55:09.100 Bring in things like hygiene. 0.99

00:55:10.180 Bring in things like dinner plates.

00:55:11.780 You can talk...

00:55:12.680 And you know this is true, right?

00:55:14.160 I'm not making this up.

00:55:15.020 There's a whole influence on European culture

00:55:16.720 from the Moors.

00:55:17.500 When the Moors are defeated in 1491, 1492,

00:55:20.000 that opens up Europe and coming to Africa. 0.83

00:55:22.200 But Africa as a whole,

00:55:23.500 they're not able to colonize.

00:55:24.940 The Moors...

00:55:25.620 I'm not a historian, so I don't know.

00:55:27.660 So again, educate me.

00:55:29.000 Are the Moors North Africans 1.00

00:55:30.420 or are they coming from Sub-Saharan Africa?

00:55:32.500 This is North Africa.

00:55:33.600 This is the North African...

00:55:35.420 North African.

00:55:36.060 You also have Mali.

00:55:37.460 You mentioned the Empire of Mali.

00:55:39.300 You have Zimbabwe has development.

00:55:41.020 Overall, Africa is not behind.

00:55:42.580 The Moors are part of the Islamic world, right?

00:55:44.560 The North Africans part of... 1.00

00:55:45.820 They also include Africa as well, right?

00:55:47.300 We agree on this?

00:55:48.340 It's not just...

00:55:49.020 Sub-Saharan Africa,

00:55:50.060 because Africa is too big. 1.00

00:55:51.580 It's why I'm asking.

00:55:52.100 We're talking about the slave trade.

00:55:52.600 So I think what people hear,

00:55:55.560 or at least what I hear,

00:55:56.560 I may be wrong.

00:55:57.060 When you say Africa was more advanced, 0.92

00:55:59.580 I'm trying to think...

00:56:00.740 I'm not just talking about the Moors.

00:56:02.740 The Moors are one part.

00:56:03.740 Okay.

00:56:04.220 So let's set the Moors aside. 1.00

00:56:05.160 Mali is not the Moors. 0.96

00:56:06.120 Mali, an empire.

00:56:07.460 Zimbabwe, the Yoruba. 0.99

00:56:09.040 There's many...

00:56:09.560 You can go through...

00:56:10.400 The continent is not like some backwards.

00:56:12.180 We're not doing anything on the continent.

00:56:13.420 So when you say the Moors advanced, 0.99

00:56:15.020 you talked about, you know,

00:56:15.940 the Moors brought certain things,

00:56:17.160 which, by the way,

00:56:18.080 like a lot of people don't know.

00:56:19.220 I actually studied Islamic history at university.

00:56:21.540 So I know a lot of the things that they brought

00:56:24.180 and preserved sometimes from the ancient world, etc.

00:56:27.400 But in terms of the Sub-Saharan Africa,

00:56:29.340 what would you say were their key scientific developments

00:56:33.260 and other things that we would say,

00:56:35.300 well, that was more advanced than the Europeans at that point?

00:56:37.520 Well, it's actually interesting that when there's actually reports

00:56:40.440 that when Columbus was sailing to America,

00:56:42.920 there were Africans sailing back.

00:56:44.340 Not Moors, West African. 1.00

00:56:46.360 There's actually a lot of evidence

00:56:47.220 that West Africans made it to America long before,

00:56:49.700 a thousand years before.

00:56:51.020 Right.

00:56:51.280 The Olmec heads, 1.00

00:56:52.340 there was a person who did research,

00:56:53.460 I can't remember a name.

00:56:54.340 New Age of Empires, a book where I did the research on this.

00:56:56.120 But she actually found that there were drugs

00:56:58.600 in some of the West African...

00:57:00.520 Sorry, there were drugs in the Latin American tombs

00:57:04.280 which came from West Africa.

00:57:05.900 A thousand years ago.

00:57:08.080 So it's just simply...

00:57:08.880 So they had sailing technology.

00:57:10.560 They could sail, they had the wheel,

00:57:11.920 there was technology, there was iron, etc.

00:57:14.460 Remember, who are the dark ages in Europe? 0.56

00:57:16.060 Like, Europe isn't particularly advanced at all at this point.

00:57:18.300 So the reason, if Rafe is correct,

00:57:20.980 Europe goes to Africa really 1492, 0.77

00:57:23.300 15th century, 16th century Europe.

00:57:24.960 The reason they're not colonizing

00:57:26.780 isn't because they don't want to colonize,

00:57:28.760 because they can't.

00:57:29.480 You mentioned it earlier.

00:57:31.080 Why was it that there was Africans 1.00

00:57:32.700 who did the actual capture?

00:57:34.400 Because Europeans couldn't get in. 1.00

00:57:35.900 Well, I thought that's because it didn't...

00:57:37.680 It was disease.

00:57:37.960 It was disease.

00:57:38.680 It wasn't just disease.

00:57:39.600 It wasn't just disease.

00:57:40.280 It was revolt.

00:57:40.920 It was rebellion.

00:57:41.640 It was the fact that they had to...

00:57:43.420 So they had...

00:57:44.140 Disease does not explain why.

00:57:45.460 You have these massive castles

00:57:46.580 where they're heavily fortified.

00:57:48.820 And even, like Almena Castle in Ghana,

00:57:50.680 what's now Ghana,

00:57:51.680 they even abandoned those

00:57:52.680 and have to go...

00:57:53.480 At some point,

00:57:53.980 they start just having boats

00:57:55.020 where the boats are offshore

00:57:56.340 because there's so much resistance.

00:57:57.520 They just start putting people on the boats.

00:57:59.320 So there's a reason why Europe...

00:58:00.960 It's not because they don't want to...

00:58:01.680 They didn't need to.

00:58:02.680 The slave markets were there on the coast.

00:58:04.280 I'm not making this up.

00:58:05.500 New Age of Empire.

00:58:06.060 I did the research.

00:58:06.700 So let me explain.

00:58:09.080 So slavery,

00:58:11.080 once Europeans started to come in 1.00

00:58:12.240 and do a slave, 1.00

00:58:12.860 and a big part of this whole thing is work.

00:58:14.440 When we say Africans,

00:58:15.820 that is a European idea at the time.

00:58:17.840 At the time,

00:58:18.620 Africans did not see themselves as Africans.

00:58:20.460 That was not the case.

00:58:21.160 There were different ethnicities.

00:58:22.620 And what Europe did very well

00:58:23.820 was they played off

00:58:24.860 these different ethnicities against each other.

00:58:26.340 So it wasn't the case

00:58:27.200 that the Yoruba were selling the Yoruba.

00:58:29.000 The Yoruba might have a war with the Igbo.

00:58:30.600 And then when they captured the Igbo, 1.00

00:58:31.820 they'd sell them.

00:58:32.200 So the idea that Africans are selling off Africans,

00:58:33.840 again, is not really true.

00:58:34.980 This is different.

00:58:35.660 Hold on.

00:58:36.260 Hold on.

00:58:36.660 That's what this one group of Africans 1.00

00:58:38.280 selling another group of Africans.

00:58:39.420 What we now think of Africans

00:58:40.580 and they now think of Africans,

00:58:41.580 certainly,

00:58:41.800 but at the time,

00:58:42.800 if there was a we are all African identity,

00:58:45.360 slavery probably doesn't happen. 0.59

00:58:46.580 Because again,

00:58:47.300 Europe's not powerful enough.

00:58:48.480 So what happens is

00:58:49.340 slavery starts,

00:58:50.480 it becomes lucrative,

00:58:51.280 it slowly starts to become the dominant,

00:58:53.280 it is the dominant force

00:58:54.300 on the African continent.

00:58:55.340 And yes,

00:58:55.820 the enslaved are taken from the interior.

00:58:57.500 There are marches.

00:58:58.660 Congo is one of the main places

00:59:00.140 where enslaved go to Brazil.

00:59:02.040 That's firmly in the middle.

00:59:03.520 So the whole continent starts to change,

00:59:05.200 which is why you have the rise of the Ashanti,

00:59:07.120 the Dahomey you mentioned.

00:59:08.540 The groups that say,

00:59:09.600 actually,

00:59:09.720 no,

00:59:09.840 we will do this,

00:59:10.700 we'll do the trading on behalf of,

00:59:12.480 we'll work.

00:59:12.920 They have,

00:59:13.220 and they have the English flag,

00:59:14.180 some of these.

00:59:14.540 You're saying demand creates supply.

00:59:16.080 Yes.

00:59:16.420 Okay.

00:59:16.780 They sold,

00:59:17.120 because it was lucrative,

00:59:17.980 right?

00:59:18.200 And so there were people who took advantage

00:59:19.660 and this completely,

00:59:21.120 and if you look at all of the,

00:59:22.220 the ethnic groups have become dominant,

00:59:24.800 those are the ones that are enslaving.

00:59:25.960 And they're doing it oftentimes

00:59:26.720 with the English flag,

00:59:27.520 literally waving the English flag

00:59:28.740 and slaving people.

00:59:29.620 So there's a whole period

00:59:30.580 from let's say 1500

00:59:32.280 up to colonization

00:59:33.960 where Africa's being drained of resources,

00:59:36.060 slavery's destroying things,

00:59:37.020 people are moving away from,

00:59:38.640 they're trying to get away from the coast.

00:59:40.020 The whole economy gets shaped,

00:59:41.880 completely differently shaped.

00:59:42.720 So we have no idea what happens

00:59:44.040 because slavery becomes a dominant thing

00:59:45.400 on the continent,

00:59:46.180 which is why there's no development.

00:59:47.520 Slavery literally stops African development

00:59:48.980 to the point at which,

00:59:50.300 then in the 19th century,

00:59:52.500 places like Nigeria are able to,

00:59:54.260 they can be colonized.

00:59:55.000 And again,

00:59:55.860 the idea that places with British heritage

00:59:58.700 are the ones who do the best,

01:00:00.100 Nigeria is essentially a failed state.

01:00:02.120 Explain that.

01:00:02.840 Because Nigeria had British, 1.00

01:00:04.200 the British, British, British,

01:00:05.040 it's still very British in the education system 0.68

01:00:06.340 and it's one of the,

01:00:07.520 it's essentially a failed state today.

01:00:08.640 So it's really not the case

01:00:09.460 that having British heritage

01:00:10.600 makes it work.

01:00:11.960 Most regions of the world,

01:00:13.140 places with a British heritage are better.

01:00:14.980 South Africa was the golden jewel in Africa.

01:00:18.460 Kenya was the great,

01:00:19.720 Kenya is deeply poor.

01:00:21.020 I'm sorry,

01:00:21.640 I'm talking about when independence came,

01:00:23.680 I'm not talking about what's happened.

01:00:24.640 You can't blame us now

01:00:26.080 for the bad corruption

01:00:27.140 and bad government of those places.

01:00:28.320 That's not true.

01:00:28.900 But if you compare African states

01:00:30.460 that were British

01:00:30.980 to those that were French or elsewhere.

01:00:32.300 But let's get back to your point.

01:00:33.440 Look,

01:00:33.620 I've already said,

01:00:34.400 and you said that the Mali Empire,

01:00:35.840 the Songhai Empire were great,

01:00:37.400 but don't make it out as if,

01:00:38.580 you know,

01:00:38.760 there was a great Wakanda

01:00:39.780 in Africa at this time.

01:00:40.740 I'm sorry.

01:00:41.220 These are few and far between places.

01:00:43.520 The history of,

01:00:44.560 the history of,

01:00:44.840 and the reason for their decline

01:00:47.220 was because of internal issues

01:00:49.080 that they had.

01:00:49.660 They were warring with each other. 0.91

01:00:51.060 They were incompetently led.

01:00:52.400 That's why you had the collapse

01:00:53.400 of Timbuktu

01:00:54.060 and of the Mali Empire,

01:00:55.920 for example.

01:00:56.700 And why was it?

01:00:57.560 I mean,

01:00:57.800 you know,

01:00:58.000 the fact is Africa was not developed.

01:01:00.480 Why did Africa not have something 1.00

01:01:02.000 equivalent to the enlightenment

01:01:03.860 that we saw

01:01:04.520 and to the,

01:01:05.520 to the reformation

01:01:06.320 that we saw

01:01:06.820 in the 13th to the 17th century

01:01:08.580 in Italy and Europe,

01:01:09.440 the great cultural awakening

01:01:10.440 of the reformation?

01:01:12.660 Why didn't it have an equivalent

01:01:13.860 to the Gupta Empire in India

01:01:15.680 where you saw a great,

01:01:17.000 a great flourishing

01:01:17.940 of arts and culture and science?

01:01:19.560 Why was there no equivalent

01:01:20.480 to the Tang Dynasty in China,

01:01:22.300 the great period there?

01:01:23.360 This was a time

01:01:24.200 when there was no European entry

01:01:26.560 into Africa.

01:01:27.640 This was a time

01:01:28.260 when Africa was on its own,

01:01:29.980 able to do whatever it wanted to.

01:01:31.800 It had the opportunity

01:01:32.540 to develop its own culture.

01:01:34.120 You know,

01:01:34.240 80% of African languages

01:01:35.440 don't have a written alphabet.

01:01:37.140 It's very difficult,

01:01:38.160 therefore,

01:01:38.360 to create a civilized society

01:01:39.740 when you don't have

01:01:40.680 those necessary precursors

01:01:42.540 for civilizations.

01:01:44.220 Those are the things,

01:01:44.940 of course,

01:01:45.180 which you don't want to address.

01:01:46.640 And, you know,

01:01:46.940 it's very easy

01:01:47.920 to just suggest

01:01:48.880 that Africa 0.71

01:01:49.660 was somehow more developed.

01:01:51.680 I'm sorry.

01:01:52.180 The point was,

01:01:53.140 you know.

01:01:54.200 Well, he did say.

01:01:55.480 I didn't say he was born

01:01:56.860 in Europe.

01:01:57.860 Asia, India, China,

01:01:59.480 the Middle East

01:02:00.000 were much more advanced

01:02:00.900 than Europe

01:02:01.380 in the Dark Ages

01:02:02.100 and elsewhere.

01:02:02.680 Absolutely.

01:02:03.480 What happened,

01:02:04.140 the great genius of the West

01:02:05.320 is what happened

01:02:05.980 from the 1600s onwards

01:02:07.720 when he adopted

01:02:08.460 the scientific method

01:02:09.500 and when,

01:02:10.140 as I said,

01:02:10.880 the Western mind

01:02:11.640 fundamentally views

01:02:12.560 the world differently.

01:02:13.440 For example,

01:02:14.400 you know,

01:02:14.880 outside of the West,

01:02:16.860 they're much better

01:02:17.940 at facial recognition

01:02:18.640 because they use

01:02:19.400 both hemispheres

01:02:20.060 of the brain.

01:02:20.980 The Western mind

01:02:21.620 only uses the right hemisphere

01:02:22.940 for facial recognition.

01:02:24.420 There are very fundamentally

01:02:25.280 different ways

01:02:25.860 in which these things happen.

01:02:27.080 Eugenics, 1.00

01:02:27.680 not just.

01:02:28.260 It's not eugenics

01:02:29.380 because you now find it

01:02:30.340 in places like China.

01:02:31.420 Listen to what you're saying,

01:02:31.980 not the West.

01:02:32.420 Let's replace West with White 1.00

01:02:33.500 because that's what you actually mean.

01:02:34.560 Let's be real.

01:02:35.340 White people's minds 0.98

01:02:35.980 function differently.

01:02:37.440 Who lives in the West?

01:02:37.860 Western, educated,

01:02:39.120 industrialized, rich

01:02:40.080 and democratic societies.

01:02:41.600 Who lives in the West?

01:02:42.080 These were born in Europe

01:02:44.860 but they've now been processed

01:02:46.500 in China,

01:02:47.500 in Japan,

01:02:48.040 in other industrialized parts

01:02:49.160 of the world.

01:02:49.620 The origin of it was white.

01:02:50.580 I'm not correct.

01:02:51.220 Oh, you're very happy

01:02:52.020 to celebrate

01:02:52.500 the African origins of things.

01:02:53.800 Somehow Europe can't celebrate

01:02:55.060 or acknowledge

01:02:55.760 any of its own achievements

01:02:57.160 and accomplishments.

01:02:58.040 You can celebrate

01:02:58.860 the achievements

01:02:59.300 but don't pretend

01:02:59.940 the Western mind

01:03:00.620 is different

01:03:00.960 and the white mind

01:03:01.620 is different.

01:03:02.300 They clearly erased this idea.

01:03:03.520 There are different groups

01:03:15.360 of white people, right?

01:03:16.340 The only reason

01:03:17.020 I'm jumping in

01:03:17.740 is because you're talking

01:03:18.480 about something

01:03:19.220 that I personally

01:03:20.120 can weigh in on.

01:03:21.780 So I would say

01:03:23.060 having come from Eastern Europe,

01:03:25.040 there's a massive difference

01:03:26.080 between the way

01:03:26.620 Eastern Europeans think

01:03:27.760 and the way

01:03:28.660 Western Europeans think

01:03:30.120 or the way Americans think.

01:03:31.140 In fact,

01:03:31.940 it's actually,

01:03:32.720 as I've now discovered,

01:03:33.740 I used to think

01:03:34.340 like Americans 0.99

01:03:35.100 and British people

01:03:35.600 are basically the same,

01:03:36.320 speaking the same language.

01:03:37.380 As you've just come back

01:03:38.300 from America,

01:03:38.820 you know that's not true, right?

01:03:40.060 Like they think

01:03:40.800 about things very differently.

01:03:42.640 So if cultures

01:03:43.820 can be different

01:03:44.600 within, you know,

01:03:45.400 you're focused on ethnicity,

01:03:46.840 okay, let's just take that.

01:03:48.260 White people can have

01:03:48.980 different cultures.

01:03:51.360 Wouldn't it be

01:03:52.140 therefore very logical

01:03:53.340 to say people

01:03:54.480 in Western Europe

01:03:55.380 will have a different way

01:03:56.780 of thinking about things

01:03:57.640 than people

01:03:58.060 in another continent,

01:03:59.040 whether that's in China

01:03:59.940 or in Africa?

01:04:00.580 Isn't that a fair point?

01:04:01.440 Why do you say

01:04:02.040 that's eugenics? 0.86

01:04:02.600 It seems excessive to me.

01:04:04.020 You can certainly

01:04:04.620 make the case

01:04:05.180 that there's different

01:04:06.300 cultural outlooks.

01:04:07.140 Of course,

01:04:07.400 our African beliefs

01:04:08.100 tend to have

01:04:08.640 completely different views

01:04:09.620 about death, etc.

01:04:10.960 But that is a different state

01:04:12.040 that the Western mind

01:04:13.360 is different.

01:04:14.020 Our minds are the same.

01:04:14.960 Our cultures may be different,

01:04:15.700 but our minds

01:04:16.060 are not different.

01:04:17.220 And actually,

01:04:17.680 I really want to stress this.

01:04:18.380 They are fundamental.

01:04:19.260 No, no.

01:04:19.880 That is Western exceptionalism.

01:04:20.500 When you start to put it,

01:04:21.340 the whole thing of eugenics, 0.93

01:04:22.660 craniometry,

01:04:23.400 there's a different kind of site

01:04:24.540 you can measure the head.

01:04:25.320 You can say,

01:04:25.840 which is the right brain.

01:04:26.600 He didn't say brain.

01:04:27.540 He said mind.

01:04:28.320 This is not biological.

01:04:29.700 So why is it?

01:04:30.760 So Westernness, for example...

01:04:31.840 Explain why

01:04:33.360 what you're saying.

01:04:35.140 This is your,

01:04:35.740 not me.

01:04:36.440 The Western mind

01:04:37.120 has a different hemisphere

01:04:38.080 when white.

01:04:38.520 Let him explain.

01:04:39.140 Why is that okay?

01:04:39.680 Let him explain.

01:04:40.540 Spatial awareness,

01:04:41.760 visual reasoning,

01:04:42.880 these are all

01:04:43.240 noticeable differences.

01:04:44.560 So, for example,

01:04:45.940 right corners,

01:04:47.700 we are less good

01:04:49.100 at looking at round corners 0.98

01:04:50.360 than Africans 0.99

01:04:51.440 because they don't 0.51

01:04:52.440 have the right angle.

01:04:53.840 So if you look

01:04:54.240 in places now

01:04:54.940 that were built,

01:04:56.060 when you grow up

01:04:56.600 in houses

01:04:57.660 which are square,

01:04:58.980 the eye naturally

01:05:00.000 sees right angles

01:05:01.180 when they see

01:05:01.740 a flat surface.

01:05:02.480 They don't see that.

01:05:03.640 That's because of

01:05:04.420 how we developed

01:05:05.200 and grew up.

01:05:05.700 This is about

01:05:06.100 cultural anthropology.

01:05:07.280 It's not about biology.

01:05:08.500 This is about

01:05:08.840 the situation

01:05:09.740 and the dynamics.

01:05:10.940 I'm sorry.

01:05:11.500 We're dressing up

01:05:12.800 eugenics.

01:05:13.580 Let us go.

01:05:13.900 Let us go.

01:05:13.920 Let us go.

01:05:14.560 And as the West developed

01:05:16.360 and as you had colonialism

01:05:17.460 and you exported

01:05:18.260 the Western concepts

01:05:19.920 around the world,

01:05:20.680 you saw the development

01:05:21.580 of these same

01:05:22.420 attributes elsewhere

01:05:23.960 which is why,

01:05:24.640 of course,

01:05:24.880 you had it in Japan

01:05:25.720 and China.

01:05:26.300 There are very few

01:05:26.820 differences now

01:05:27.580 with the originally

01:05:28.540 European mind

01:05:29.380 which is why

01:05:29.740 it's called

01:05:30.060 the Western mind.

01:05:31.360 This is not

01:05:31.820 something that's

01:05:32.480 controversial.

01:05:33.060 This is accepted

01:05:33.700 by behavioural

01:05:34.720 psychologists

01:05:35.240 and cultural psychologists

01:05:36.480 and anthropologists.

01:05:38.360 It's very well known.

01:05:39.380 This is the science.

01:05:39.920 I have a degree

01:05:40.440 in psychology

01:05:40.840 so I can tell you

01:05:41.420 it is not

01:05:41.800 generally accepted.

01:05:43.560 Actually,

01:05:44.240 it is.

01:05:44.880 There's a lot of evidence

01:05:45.440 but the point is

01:05:46.400 it was that moment

01:05:47.780 and this all goes back

01:05:48.760 to the church's ban

01:05:49.800 on cousin marriage

01:05:50.580 a thousand years ago.

01:05:51.560 This is where it all

01:05:52.220 develops from.

01:05:53.100 The Catholic Church,

01:05:53.920 it was then called

01:05:54.340 the Western Church,

01:05:55.480 banned marriage

01:05:56.100 between certain degrees

01:05:56.920 of consanguinity.

01:05:58.180 That got rid of

01:05:58.860 the kinship clans

01:06:00.340 which were prevalent

01:06:01.600 all around the world.

01:06:02.940 To this day,

01:06:03.500 the majority of cultures

01:06:04.540 in the world

01:06:05.020 have large kinship-based

01:06:06.800 families with about

01:06:07.580 40, 50 members.

01:06:08.740 Whether you're a first,

01:06:09.460 second, third, 0.97

01:06:09.980 fourth cousin,

01:06:10.860 you're treated equally

01:06:11.640 as brothers and sisters.

01:06:13.120 That was done away

01:06:13.820 within Europe

01:06:14.380 and so suddenly

01:06:14.920 you had the birth

01:06:15.480 of the nuclear family

01:06:16.420 and still

01:06:17.260 nuclear families

01:06:19.820 are a small minority

01:06:20.700 of global families

01:06:21.680 and what you had then

01:06:22.440 was you had

01:06:22.920 family units

01:06:24.340 that had to rely

01:06:24.880 on other people

01:06:25.600 for support.

01:06:27.100 You got the birth

01:06:27.700 of social trust.

01:06:29.020 Social trust

01:06:29.480 did not exist

01:06:30.620 outside of the West

01:06:31.420 at this time

01:06:31.860 to anywhere near

01:06:32.480 the same degree.

01:06:33.520 When you had social trust,

01:06:34.640 of course,

01:06:35.080 you then were able

01:06:35.740 to enter into contracts

01:06:37.040 and you began to have

01:06:38.180 rival organizations

01:06:39.440 to families developing.

01:06:40.620 You had charter towns,

01:06:43.040 towns that you would

01:06:43.600 sign an oath

01:06:44.180 to help develop.

01:06:45.300 You had universities,

01:06:46.600 you had guilds,

01:06:47.700 you had confraternities.

01:06:48.780 These were uniquely

01:06:49.560 European things

01:06:50.680 that began to develop

01:06:51.620 in the last thousand years

01:06:53.100 and then when you had

01:06:53.960 these independent organizations,

01:06:55.600 you then began

01:06:56.140 to have cross-pollination

01:06:57.260 of ideas.

01:06:58.460 They would talk

01:06:58.980 and discuss,

01:06:59.960 you'd have the birth

01:07:01.000 of competition

01:07:01.560 and that's what led

01:07:02.820 to innovation

01:07:03.500 and social trust

01:07:04.920 and competition

01:07:05.640 are fundamental

01:07:06.340 to innovation

01:07:07.220 and it's at this point

01:07:08.120 that you see

01:07:08.560 the development

01:07:09.140 of a very different

01:07:10.060 worldview

01:07:10.620 a very different outlook

01:07:12.020 and you can see it

01:07:13.100 in all sorts of ways.

01:07:14.380 So, for example,

01:07:16.060 if you look at ways

01:07:17.900 that we identify ourselves

01:07:19.160 for the Western people

01:07:21.500 and that includes

01:07:22.320 now modern places

01:07:23.300 in Asia,

01:07:24.280 if I said,

01:07:24.760 Konstantin,

01:07:25.200 who are you?

01:07:26.120 You'd say,

01:07:26.580 I'm a very,

01:07:27.340 very handsome

01:07:29.140 stand-up comedian.

01:07:31.160 You're trying to get

01:07:31.540 on my side.

01:07:33.260 I've got snazzy jackets

01:07:34.520 and I collect

01:07:35.720 milk bottle tops

01:07:36.440 or whatever, right?

01:07:37.540 But if you were

01:07:38.120 to ask somebody

01:07:38.880 in a tribe

01:07:39.860 in rural Africa,

01:07:41.480 they would say,

01:07:42.000 well, I'm X,

01:07:42.680 I'm the son of Y,

01:07:43.740 I'm the brother

01:07:44.220 of so-and-so,

01:07:45.200 I'm the father

01:07:45.740 and so-and-so.

01:07:46.420 It's family and kinship

01:07:47.820 that defines who you are

01:07:48.980 as opposed to

01:07:49.880 what happens in the West

01:07:50.700 because in the West

01:07:51.420 you had the birth

01:07:52.060 of individualism

01:07:53.020 and that was

01:07:53.740 the key difference.

01:07:54.500 The notion of the individual

01:07:55.580 is a Western,

01:07:57.220 primarily anglospheric concept

01:07:58.720 which also Protestant

01:07:59.620 helped to create

01:08:00.380 and it was that notion

01:08:01.520 of the individual

01:08:02.340 and self-improvement

01:08:03.540 and the reliance

01:08:05.140 on other people.

01:08:06.440 You had innovation

01:08:07.120 and individualism

01:08:08.180 and competition.

01:08:09.600 That led to the uniqueness

01:08:10.560 of the Western mind

01:08:11.660 which wasn't replicated

01:08:12.720 anywhere else

01:08:13.360 until you had

01:08:13.780 an exporting

01:08:14.560 of colonialism.

01:08:15.660 See, the reason

01:08:16.140 I'm getting frustrated,

01:08:17.160 I don't even know,

01:08:17.760 now I'm just starting

01:08:18.440 to be like,

01:08:18.880 this is actually dangerous.

01:08:21.080 These are a set

01:08:21.600 of dangerous ideas.

01:08:22.640 So if you think about

01:08:23.360 what justified slavery

01:08:24.180 in the first place,

01:08:25.180 first you had,

01:08:25.760 there was a religious

01:08:26.300 justification.

01:08:27.600 There was very much

01:08:28.520 a pope,

01:08:28.980 a Christian,

01:08:29.360 if you're not a Christian,

01:08:30.280 if you're a heathen,

01:08:30.780 you can do what you like.

01:08:32.040 After that,

01:08:32.720 it becomes the,

01:08:34.120 if you like,

01:08:34.480 the Enlightenment definition,

01:08:35.440 the scientific definition.

01:08:36.360 Actually,

01:08:36.600 we're just not human beings.

01:08:37.620 We're just actually

01:08:38.620 more like,

01:08:39.720 I'm more like an ape

01:08:40.580 than I am a human,

01:08:41.480 therefore you can do

01:08:42.280 X, Y, Z.

01:08:43.100 Again,

01:08:43.500 I would point out

01:08:44.080 this Enlightenment

01:08:44.600 we're so proud of,

01:08:45.820 it was actually brought

01:08:46.520 in the idea

01:08:47.100 that I'm not a human being.

01:08:48.360 So maybe there's

01:08:48.700 some very bad ideas

01:08:49.480 in the Enlightenment.

01:08:50.260 Anyway,

01:08:50.960 it becomes that

01:08:51.600 scientific justification.

01:08:52.780 That's where you get

01:08:53.320 phrenology,

01:08:54.000 eugenics,

01:08:55.120 which I'm saying

01:08:55.560 why this is a eugenic idea.

01:08:57.020 What happens after

01:08:57.700 the Second World War

01:08:58.340 is eugenics becomes 0.55

01:08:59.040 a bad thing.

01:08:59.580 We can't do eugenics no more. 0.99

01:09:00.820 What do we do?

01:09:01.420 We do cultural racism.

01:09:03.060 So you're explaining

01:09:03.880 the world

01:09:04.320 because you're saying

01:09:05.040 that the West

01:09:05.420 essentially has a better culture

01:09:06.520 and Africa has a backwards culture 1.00

01:09:08.180 and this is why Africa's poor.

01:09:10.000 That is a clear,

01:09:11.280 that is a,

01:09:11.760 you go from church,

01:09:12.820 you go church,

01:09:13.800 science,

01:09:14.960 culture,

01:09:15.420 it's the same line.

01:09:16.560 So when I'm saying

01:09:17.080 it's eugenics, 0.79

01:09:18.120 it's eugenics dressed up 0.99

01:09:19.020 in something else,

01:09:19.840 which you can do

01:09:20.500 with some fancy tests

01:09:21.340 and I promise you

01:09:22.960 these things are not

01:09:23.960 widely accepted in psychology.

01:09:25.240 I have a degree in psychology.

01:09:26.380 I know it's literature.

01:09:27.280 It is deeply controversial.

01:09:29.060 And I would ask your audience

01:09:31.240 to think which,

01:09:32.920 look,

01:09:33.220 this is,

01:09:33.520 it's a comforting idea

01:09:35.140 to think that the poverty

01:09:35.860 that we have,

01:09:36.380 a world that kills

01:09:37.220 a child every 10 seconds

01:09:38.900 because they haven't got

01:09:39.420 access to food and water.

01:09:40.580 Most of those children,

01:09:41.200 probably all of those children

01:09:41.820 are black and brown. 0.98

01:09:42.740 Racial capitalism. 0.89

01:09:43.680 It's comforting to think

01:09:44.440 it's because we have

01:09:45.120 this great culture.

01:09:45.980 Isn't it wonderful?

01:09:46.660 Etc, etc, etc.

01:09:47.280 But I'm giving you

01:09:48.040 the actual alternative reality

01:09:49.300 to this.

01:09:50.060 There is a reason

01:09:50.840 why Africa's development

01:09:51.940 stops when slavery starts.

01:09:53.600 Because slavery stops

01:09:54.500 the development,

01:09:55.160 there is a reason

01:09:55.940 why under colonialism,

01:09:57.580 where the whole economy

01:10:00.120 is dictated to

01:10:01.000 and to draw out resources.

01:10:02.820 So when African countries 0.59

01:10:03.700 get independence,

01:10:04.380 the book I would recommend

01:10:05.020 everybody read

01:10:05.620 is

01:10:06.080 Africa Mushy Knight 0.97

01:10:08.240 by Kwame Nkrumah,

01:10:09.400 the first president of Ghana.

01:10:11.500 Ghana is actually

01:10:12.120 one of the first countries

01:10:12.740 in 1960 to get independence.

01:10:14.140 He says,

01:10:14.420 now I run this country,

01:10:15.760 but there's no hospitals,

01:10:17.200 there's no schools,

01:10:18.000 there's no roads,

01:10:18.740 there's no factories.

01:10:19.560 In fact,

01:10:19.800 the whole of this economy

01:10:20.640 is taking all of our resources

01:10:22.680 and processing them in Europe

01:10:23.920 and selling them back to us.

01:10:25.240 That is still the case

01:10:26.020 in somewhere like Ghana,

01:10:26.900 where chocolate companies

01:10:27.560 take the resources,

01:10:28.520 produce it outside,

01:10:29.220 etc, etc.

01:10:29.760 So when you have

01:10:30.500 this independence happens,

01:10:32.500 their countries,

01:10:33.080 they can't,

01:10:33.460 how could a country

01:10:33.960 that has no hospitals,

01:10:34.780 no roads,

01:10:35.200 no factories

01:10:35.640 ever succeed?

01:10:36.660 It can't.

01:10:37.260 So what does it do?

01:10:37.740 It falls into poverty,

01:10:38.840 gets these loans,

01:10:39.800 has more poverty,

01:10:40.920 etc, etc.

01:10:41.680 On top of that,

01:10:42.640 one of the key features

01:10:43.320 of neocolonialism

01:10:43.920 is to install

01:10:44.740 public governments,

01:10:45.720 places like Congo,

01:10:46.740 even in Nigeria,

01:10:47.300 even in Nkrumah,

01:10:48.560 etc.

01:10:49.300 And so when you're looking

01:10:50.400 at African countries

01:10:51.580 can't succeed,

01:10:52.780 of course they couldn't succeed.

01:10:53.680 There's no possible way

01:10:54.580 that they could have succeeded,

01:10:55.880 which is why

01:10:56.280 they're still poor today.

01:10:57.320 And again,

01:10:57.880 reparations is not just

01:10:58.900 about slavery,

01:10:59.660 it's about that whole history.

01:11:01.020 So I'm telling you,

01:11:02.020 the reason that you have

01:11:03.320 this inequality today

01:11:04.400 is very clearly,

01:11:05.560 largely down

01:11:06.200 to Europe exploiting,

01:11:07.780 the West exploiting,

01:11:08.920 the underdeveloped world,

01:11:09.960 and continuing to do so,

01:11:11.060 and you have a fairytale

01:11:12.140 and frankly racist idea

01:11:14.100 over there.

01:11:14.660 Pause both of you.

01:11:16.900 Is it possible

01:11:17.560 that there's some truth

01:11:19.080 in what you're both saying?

01:11:20.340 Because I think

01:11:21.380 it's undeniable

01:11:22.640 that Western slavery 0.53

01:11:25.700 and colonialism

01:11:26.460 would have had

01:11:27.180 a negative impact

01:11:28.060 on Africa,

01:11:28.740 but that doesn't mean

01:11:29.780 that the cultures

01:11:30.360 weren't necessarily the same.

01:11:31.780 So could it be

01:11:32.760 that you're both right?

01:11:33.580 I mean, Ray,

01:11:34.180 surely you wouldn't deny

01:11:35.720 that colonialism and slavery

01:11:37.060 was bad for Africa, 0.88

01:11:38.520 would you?

01:11:39.520 Well, for people

01:11:40.560 at life at the time

01:11:41.600 it was bad, absolutely.

01:11:42.480 That's my point.

01:11:43.340 Slavery and colonialism

01:11:43.960 were horrendous

01:11:44.660 for people at the time,

01:11:46.540 but now, generation on,

01:11:48.240 I'm sorry,

01:11:48.660 the benefits of colonialism

01:11:49.900 have helped to lift

01:11:51.440 the world out of poverty,

01:11:52.520 have increased life,

01:11:53.780 have doubled life expectancy.

01:11:55.540 Same thing in Australia,

01:11:56.460 life expectancy

01:11:57.000 of Aborigines

01:11:57.660 was 40 years

01:11:58.640 for thousands of years.

01:12:00.920 Now it's almost doubled, right?

01:12:02.520 So those are the advantages.

01:12:03.940 So yes,

01:12:04.720 slavery was horrendous

01:12:06.100 for slaves,

01:12:07.180 but for the descendants

01:12:07.960 of slaves today

01:12:08.760 living in Britain

01:12:09.280 in the Caribbean,

01:12:10.500 slavery,

01:12:10.940 they're not victims

01:12:11.480 of slavery,

01:12:12.080 they've actually benefited

01:12:12.960 from the terrible hardship

01:12:14.040 that their ancestors

01:12:15.140 went through.

01:12:15.680 But do you not think

01:12:16.520 being occupied,

01:12:19.180 having a foreign government

01:12:20.320 that sought to use

01:12:21.760 your country

01:12:22.340 exclusively for its own benefit,

01:12:24.600 which it did,

01:12:25.180 and I'm not saying

01:12:25.840 they didn't do certain things,

01:12:27.240 I'm sure they brought

01:12:27.960 schools in and whatever,

01:12:29.260 but nonetheless,

01:12:30.140 they did that

01:12:30.620 so they had a more

01:12:31.200 educated population

01:12:32.100 to do the things

01:12:33.060 that they needed done,

01:12:34.280 right?

01:12:35.280 Don't you think that,

01:12:36.420 you know,

01:12:36.660 a hundred years of that

01:12:37.640 would leave a legacy

01:12:39.000 that was detrimental?

01:12:42.240 Detriment in what way?

01:12:43.360 Yes, look,

01:12:44.180 the point was

01:12:44.880 the pre-state societies

01:12:46.880 were far more brutal.

01:12:48.420 So yes,

01:12:48.860 I'm not saying

01:12:49.380 that these were

01:12:49.900 wonderful places

01:12:51.000 necessary to live,

01:12:51.860 but you know,

01:12:52.520 racism was abhorrent

01:12:53.400 at that time.

01:12:54.000 Look,

01:12:54.400 Britain is now 0.91

01:12:54.900 the world's third

01:12:55.560 least racist country,

01:12:56.640 but back in the 19th century,

01:12:57.960 of course,

01:12:58.260 everyone did believe

01:12:59.200 in racial hierarchies. 0.75

01:13:00.640 Britain was very racist

01:13:01.400 in the start

01:13:02.020 of the 20th century as well.

01:13:03.620 No one is denying that.

01:13:04.580 No one is denying

01:13:05.220 the atrocities.

01:13:06.060 My father was born

01:13:06.900 in Kenya,

01:13:07.540 along with all his family.

01:13:09.780 What happened to the Maoma 0.96

01:13:11.020 was terrible

01:13:11.980 and everything else,

01:13:12.900 and the Kikuyu

01:13:13.720 and so forth,

01:13:14.380 but the point was

01:13:15.440 terrible compared to what?

01:13:17.640 The conditions

01:13:18.240 that were there before

01:13:19.080 when you had

01:13:19.780 terrible violence,

01:13:21.200 of course,

01:13:21.500 between rival tribes,

01:13:23.000 you had warfare,

01:13:24.100 you had malnutrition,

01:13:25.860 you had poor water,

01:13:26.940 you had disease,

01:13:28.060 people's life expectancies

01:13:29.100 were so short.

01:13:30.300 You compare that

01:13:30.940 to what happened afterwards,

01:13:32.260 clearly a huge improvement

01:13:33.620 with the benefit

01:13:34.360 of industrialization

01:13:35.640 and development,

01:13:37.160 and of course,

01:13:38.820 once independence came,

01:13:40.440 they were given

01:13:40.940 an inheritance.

01:13:41.800 They had the necessary

01:13:43.180 conditions to thrive.

01:13:44.800 I mean,

01:13:45.040 it's not true.

01:13:45.620 In the 1950s and 60s

01:13:46.860 was, for example,

01:13:47.760 in the Caribbean,

01:13:48.300 that was a key era

01:13:49.440 for the development

01:13:50.400 of the Caribbean.

01:13:51.480 In Barbados,

01:13:52.660 there's only one main hospital.

01:13:54.340 That was built

01:13:54.960 by the British.

01:13:55.800 One main university.

01:13:56.720 That was built

01:13:57.380 by the British.

01:13:58.200 Things haven't developed

01:13:59.380 beyond that in Barbados

01:14:00.660 because, of course,

01:14:01.640 there's been economic

01:14:02.620 mismanagement and corruption.

01:14:04.320 And as I've said to you before,

01:14:05.480 the countries in the Caribbean

01:14:06.640 that are still crown dependencies

01:14:07.920 are the ones

01:14:09.000 that are thriving.

01:14:09.940 60% of Jamaicans

01:14:10.960 understand that

01:14:11.740 and they would prefer

01:14:12.480 Britain never to have left.

01:14:13.760 Come on,

01:14:14.020 let me answer that specifically.

01:14:15.520 Let me answer that specifically.

01:14:17.360 As I said,

01:14:18.560 this is what we call

01:14:19.360 neo-colonism.

01:14:20.500 So when Jamaica

01:14:21.580 becomes independent,

01:14:22.580 and actually Jamaica,

01:14:23.260 the reason Jamaica

01:14:24.080 becomes independent 0.98

01:14:24.640 is to stop Jamaicans 1.00

01:14:25.600 migrating to Britain.

01:14:26.940 That is why they made

01:14:27.680 Jamaica independent.

01:14:28.400 Not because of some

01:14:28.780 great moral thing.

01:14:30.180 They want to stop people

01:14:30.900 coming and it largely works.

01:14:31.960 But after Jamaica

01:14:33.100 becomes independent,

01:14:33.920 this is the problem

01:14:34.580 with independence.

01:14:35.220 It's independence in theory,

01:14:36.420 but the economics

01:14:37.100 of Jamaica stay the same.

01:14:38.300 So the same people

01:14:38.780 who owned everything

01:14:39.300 in Jamaica

01:14:39.640 still own it now.

01:14:40.920 So the money

01:14:42.000 is still being taken out,

01:14:43.020 still being withdrawn,

01:14:44.000 which is why,

01:14:44.680 obviously,

01:14:45.200 it can't succeed.

01:14:46.040 Jamaica's economy

01:14:46.500 is really collapsing

01:14:47.240 and doesn't really show

01:14:48.700 any signs of getting

01:14:49.260 much better.

01:14:50.180 And so, yes,

01:14:50.820 if you ask your average

01:14:51.800 Jamaican,

01:14:52.540 was it better under the British?

01:14:53.700 They might go,

01:14:54.200 yeah, it was a bit better.

01:14:55.520 But that's because

01:14:56.240 they're presented

01:14:57.400 with these neo-colonism,

01:14:58.500 which is even worse.

01:14:59.260 But the cause of it

01:14:59.920 is still the same.

01:15:00.460 You still have to address it.

01:15:01.880 So, for example,

01:15:02.420 no, in Jamaica,

01:15:03.400 and I know Jamaica world,

01:15:04.560 I'm from Jamaica,

01:15:05.540 tourism is the main industry,

01:15:06.940 right?

01:15:08.040 70% of the money

01:15:08.940 from tourism

01:15:09.400 goes straight out.

01:15:10.700 There's the North Shore

01:15:11.620 where my family

01:15:12.040 live in Jamaica,

01:15:13.040 most of it,

01:15:13.600 literally,

01:15:13.880 there's like no public beaches

01:15:14.900 or a little slither 0.95

01:15:15.900 of public beaches

01:15:16.420 because most of it

01:15:16.840 is owned by foreign companies.

01:15:18.060 So the thing

01:15:18.580 that's supposed to help us

01:15:19.400 doesn't help us.

01:15:19.960 It just drains the money

01:15:20.760 straight out.

01:15:21.520 That's the problem

01:15:22.000 with something like Jamaica.

01:15:22.520 It's not actually independent.

01:15:23.980 It's theoretically independent,

01:15:25.040 but economically,

01:15:26.040 Jamaica's economy

01:15:26.600 is still completely

01:15:27.520 being rinsed by the West

01:15:28.420 and now it's not just

01:15:29.580 actually Europe,

01:15:30.340 so China,

01:15:31.240 India's getting involved,

01:15:31.900 et cetera, et cetera.

01:15:32.840 So Jamaica's economy

01:15:33.740 can't work

01:15:34.320 and so the people there

01:15:35.140 might say,

01:15:35.700 oh yeah,

01:15:36.060 we want it,

01:15:36.700 it was better then.

01:15:37.940 That's not proof.

01:15:39.180 You're acting as if

01:15:39.980 the Jamaican government

01:15:41.020 has no agency

01:15:41.780 in any of this.

01:15:42.480 Oh, that's right.

01:15:42.840 That was terrible.

01:15:43.840 It's the same thing.

01:15:45.320 But this is the problem

01:15:46.700 here that you have.

01:15:47.280 That's why people

01:15:48.240 preferred things

01:15:48.860 when they were run

01:15:49.340 by the British.

01:15:50.420 In Barbados,

01:15:51.220 the Auditor General

01:15:52.160 in Barbados

01:15:53.200 has said

01:15:53.660 that he can't actually

01:15:54.900 get proper accounts

01:15:56.000 for state-owned industries

01:15:57.960 and enterprises.

01:15:59.480 Can you imagine that?

01:16:00.240 The Auditor General

01:16:01.100 cannot get accounts

01:16:02.220 on state industries

01:16:03.300 in Barbados.

01:16:04.560 That's the level

01:16:05.180 of corruption

01:16:05.660 and dysfunction

01:16:06.360 that is created

01:16:07.180 by having people in power

01:16:08.720 who simply don't deserve

01:16:09.660 to be there

01:16:10.200 and you can't keep

01:16:11.660 blaming everything

01:16:12.320 on what happened

01:16:13.000 post-independence.

01:16:14.280 It's now been 50,

01:16:15.160 60, 70 years

01:16:16.100 of independence.

01:16:17.120 That's long enough

01:16:18.280 to sort your own house out.

01:16:19.020 Can I answer this question?

01:16:19.760 Because the problem

01:16:20.180 that you stated

01:16:21.900 what was one of the key things

01:16:23.060 that Britain needed

01:16:23.860 was financial stability

01:16:25.160 and the former colonies

01:16:26.160 simply don't have it

01:16:26.760 because they can't have it

01:16:27.500 because no,

01:16:28.440 Britain did not leave

01:16:29.480 the colonies

01:16:29.940 in a state

01:16:31.360 where they could govern.

01:16:31.980 They did not.

01:16:32.500 They did not.

01:16:33.000 That's effectually untrue.

01:16:34.280 They left the colonies 0.72

01:16:34.920 in states

01:16:35.240 with roads

01:16:35.940 that went to the airport,

01:16:36.960 with maybe one hospital,

01:16:38.180 maybe a couple of schools.

01:16:39.180 They did not leave them

01:16:39.980 in places

01:16:40.280 where they could succeed

01:16:41.020 which is why

01:16:41.760 most of the former colonies,

01:16:42.840 almost all of them,

01:16:43.580 fall into what we call

01:16:44.340 third world debt,

01:16:44.980 IMF, etc, etc,

01:16:45.920 which is just a new

01:16:46.740 form of colonialism.

01:16:47.600 That's the truth.

01:16:48.180 That's fundamentally the truth.

01:16:49.640 No country did more

01:16:51.000 to prepare its colonies

01:16:52.560 for independence

01:16:53.840 than Britain did. 0.70

01:16:54.820 That is deeply untrue.

01:16:55.240 And up to 2009,

01:16:58.220 you had Britain investment.

01:16:59.800 The civil service was present,

01:17:01.840 military structures,

01:17:02.820 parliament,

01:17:03.660 courts,

01:17:04.480 the judiciary,

01:17:05.080 the rule of law.

01:17:05.760 I'm talking about roads,

01:17:06.640 infrastructure,

01:17:07.360 hospitals.

01:17:08.080 No, they didn't

01:17:08.880 because the evidence

01:17:09.520 is clear on this.

01:17:10.380 Of course,

01:17:10.860 they look at the number

01:17:11.600 of schools and,

01:17:12.980 I mean, for example,

01:17:13.580 even after emancipation.

01:17:14.960 So after slavery

01:17:16.700 was abolished in 1833,

01:17:18.600 enforced in 1844,

01:17:19.640 for the next 10 years,

01:17:21.000 from 1835 to 1844,

01:17:23.200 with no obligation,

01:17:24.460 Britain gave grants

01:17:25.500 to the Caribbean

01:17:26.300 for schools,

01:17:27.600 for churches,

01:17:28.820 and for hospitals

01:17:29.740 and so forth,

01:17:30.500 some equivalent

01:17:31.040 to a billion pounds today.

01:17:32.660 Sorry,

01:17:32.980 can we say no obligation?

01:17:34.040 This is, again,

01:17:34.480 a massive problem

01:17:35.300 we think about Britain.

01:17:36.560 Jamaica was a colony 0.99

01:17:37.660 of Britain.

01:17:38.160 It had an obligation.

01:17:39.180 When my family,

01:17:39.640 when my dad came

01:17:40.500 from in 1960 to here,

01:17:42.100 he came with a passport.

01:17:42.760 Wait a second.

01:17:43.800 They came with a passport

01:17:44.820 that said Jamaica.

01:17:45.820 It had every obligation

01:17:46.960 because it owned the place.

01:17:48.240 Yeah, it didn't.

01:17:48.720 I think you've got

01:17:50.720 your wise cross.

01:17:51.620 I think what Ray

01:17:52.340 for saying is

01:17:52.980 the money was given

01:17:54.700 and there was no requirement

01:17:56.120 to repay

01:17:56.700 or to do anything.

01:17:57.720 No, no, no.

01:17:58.400 My point is,

01:17:58.800 it was part of the nation,

01:17:59.720 so of course it was.

01:18:00.460 There's no difference

01:18:01.420 between Britain funding

01:18:03.080 education in Jamaica

01:18:03.880 and Britain funding

01:18:04.400 education in Birmingham.

01:18:05.500 And the Caribbean

01:18:05.980 still benefits

01:18:06.680 because it's a member

01:18:07.420 of the Commonwealth.

01:18:08.900 Canada, Australia,

01:18:10.000 New Zealand and the UK

01:18:10.800 given an inordinate amount

01:18:12.640 of its foreign aid

01:18:14.060 to former British colonies

01:18:15.440 in the Commonwealth, right?

01:18:16.440 So, you know,

01:18:17.180 as I said,

01:18:17.600 two billion up to 2009.

01:18:18.800 Currently it's 430 million pounds

01:18:20.400 of British money

01:18:21.040 is earmarked

01:18:21.940 for development there.

01:18:23.360 And that's because,

01:18:23.980 of course,

01:18:24.300 of the ties.

01:18:25.320 All right, all right,

01:18:25.640 all right.

01:18:26.160 We're back in nerd territory.

01:18:27.180 I want to wrap it up

01:18:28.940 a little bit.

01:18:29.920 But can I ask you one thing

01:18:31.720 before we wrap up?

01:18:33.040 Because you talked a lot

01:18:34.140 about this kind of psychology

01:18:35.460 of whiteness and whatever.

01:18:36.680 Do you think there was

01:18:37.980 something very particular

01:18:39.580 about Western Europeans

01:18:41.480 that made them

01:18:43.180 do the slave trade,

01:18:44.720 that made them behave

01:18:45.580 in the ways that they did?

01:18:47.900 That's a good question.

01:18:50.100 I mean,

01:18:50.380 talk about different minds,

01:18:51.200 yeah.

01:18:51.460 Maybe that's...

01:18:52.480 Do you have a theory

01:18:53.500 of what...

01:18:54.140 I would not say different minds.

01:18:58.720 No, but I'm asking you,

01:18:59.920 why do you think

01:19:00.980 it happened that way?

01:19:01.600 Because I guess

01:19:02.100 the argument

01:19:02.660 that I'm thinking about is,

01:19:05.080 I mean,

01:19:05.520 I personally have to say,

01:19:06.680 I don't know enough about it

01:19:07.880 to really make a judgment,

01:19:08.880 but I'm surprised to hear

01:19:10.040 you say Africa was more developed.

01:19:11.580 I'd always assumed

01:19:12.560 that the reason

01:19:13.620 the Europeans did 0.99

01:19:14.500 what they did

01:19:14.980 probably wasn't

01:19:15.700 because they had

01:19:16.060 some different special mind

01:19:17.240 in that way,

01:19:18.260 but actually it was

01:19:19.020 because they just had

01:19:20.140 the technology,

01:19:21.020 they were more powerful,

01:19:22.020 they were wealthier,

01:19:22.700 so they could do this

01:19:23.940 in a way that actually

01:19:26.100 everyone would have done

01:19:27.280 if they were in a position to.

01:19:28.640 So I guess what I'm getting at

01:19:30.060 is would Africans 1.00

01:19:31.040 have colonised

01:19:32.020 Western Europe

01:19:32.800 if the shoe

01:19:34.040 was on the other foot?

01:19:34.960 Or do you think

01:19:35.560 there's something special

01:19:36.400 about white Europeans 0.95

01:19:37.960 that made them behave

01:19:38.980 in that way?

01:19:40.180 I'm so tempted

01:19:40.940 to give a different answer

01:19:41.640 to this question,

01:19:42.160 but I really don't.

01:19:42.840 I'm going to play nice.

01:19:43.780 Okay.

01:19:44.200 I think that when you

01:19:45.440 look at it,

01:19:47.380 this is why the West is...

01:19:50.020 When I say the West,

01:19:50.700 when I say the West,

01:19:51.420 it really doesn't mean

01:19:52.060 going to the West,

01:19:53.440 Europe going to the West

01:19:54.200 and finding the Americas.

01:19:55.240 The Americas are such an... 1.00

01:19:56.460 It unlocks so many things.

01:19:57.900 It's not a coincidence

01:19:58.600 that America is

01:19:59.540 the richest part of the world.

01:20:00.800 It's like that's the key

01:20:02.340 that unlocks everything else.

01:20:03.560 Okay.

01:20:03.920 And I think you have

01:20:05.700 to be honest and say,

01:20:06.340 well, who's the ambassador

01:20:07.220 to the first...

01:20:08.500 The guy, Columbus,

01:20:09.460 Christopher Columbus,

01:20:10.080 who goes over there

01:20:10.960 is one of the most violent, 0.95

01:20:12.980 insidious people 0.99

01:20:13.580 in the history of human life.

01:20:15.380 All right?

01:20:15.780 Who from...

01:20:17.100 And this is midpoint estimates

01:20:17.960 and this is all estimates,

01:20:19.880 but the midpoint estimate

01:20:20.640 of when he goes to his...

01:20:22.100 What's Hispaniola,

01:20:22.800 what's now Haiti and Dominican Republic,

01:20:24.260 the midpoint estimate

01:20:25.220 is he goes there

01:20:25.800 and it turns 8 million people.

01:20:26.780 And this is the midpoint.

01:20:27.760 It might be lower,

01:20:28.220 it might be higher.

01:20:28.740 I don't know.

01:20:29.080 But the middle estimate.

01:20:30.420 And that's 1492.

01:20:31.820 When he eventually leaves in 1512,

01:20:33.480 it's estimated

01:20:33.940 that there are 20,000 people left.

01:20:35.800 It's a huge decimation of life.

01:20:37.920 When Europeans go to... 0.97

01:20:39.060 Because it's a large-ditch disease,

01:20:40.000 but it's not just disease.

01:20:40.880 It's man eating dogs.

01:20:41.800 It's working people to death. 0.74

01:20:43.280 The genocide in the Americas,

01:20:44.980 generally,

01:20:45.320 is the largest genocide

01:20:46.020 in human history.

01:20:47.080 Up to 65 million people.

01:20:48.940 And this is...

01:20:49.560 I've read this

01:20:50.040 and I was shocked.

01:20:51.060 Apparently,

01:20:51.700 the world actually cooled

01:20:53.360 because so many people died.

01:20:54.720 They were producing

01:20:55.240 less greenhouse gas emissions

01:20:57.040 and actually reduced

01:20:57.780 the temperature of the earth.

01:20:59.100 So if you think about

01:20:59.980 the founding place

01:21:02.540 for the West

01:21:03.560 is the Americas.

01:21:04.840 And the founding...

01:21:05.820 How the West took over the Americas 0.92

01:21:07.080 was the largest genocide

01:21:08.920 in human history,

01:21:09.720 like violence

01:21:10.220 and disregard for life.

01:21:11.560 And then where did they go

01:21:12.420 to find the labor

01:21:13.100 after they worked

01:21:13.660 to death the natives? 0.84

01:21:15.300 They go,

01:21:15.580 oh,

01:21:15.820 we've got this African slavery. 1.00

01:21:16.880 Let's go and enslave Africans. 1.00

01:21:18.140 Let's turn them into non-humans. 1.00

01:21:19.900 So if you were to say,

01:21:21.440 yep,

01:21:21.680 that barbarity, 0.98

01:21:22.660 that anti-blackness, 0.95

01:21:23.740 that racism, 0.98

01:21:24.460 white supremacy,

01:21:25.320 that's the difference.

01:21:26.040 100%.

01:21:26.320 And that's what allows

01:21:27.160 everything else to build up.

01:21:27.740 So what I'm asking though

01:21:28.840 is do you think

01:21:29.780 that if West Africans, 0.92

01:21:32.780 let's say,

01:21:33.540 they had the ships,

01:21:34.960 they had the muskets,

01:21:36.220 they had the gunpowder,

01:21:37.500 they had the various

01:21:38.640 different types of technology

01:21:39.980 that enabled

01:21:40.800 Western Europeans

01:21:42.260 to go over to the Americas 0.84

01:21:43.520 and do what you're

01:21:44.260 talking about, right?

01:21:45.340 Do you think that

01:21:46.220 if the West African tribes,

01:21:49.200 perhaps some of those

01:21:49.980 more aggressive ones

01:21:50.860 that enslaved other Africans, 0.96

01:21:53.120 if they had all that technology

01:21:54.440 and they went over

01:21:55.620 to the Americas,

01:21:58.500 do you think

01:21:59.140 they would have behaved differently

01:22:00.260 because of their

01:22:01.320 different culture

01:22:02.100 and background

01:22:02.660 or do you think

01:22:03.960 they would have done

01:22:04.560 the same thing?

01:22:05.560 I think evidence says

01:22:06.240 they did behave differently.

01:22:07.580 Like I said,

01:22:08.020 there's evidence

01:22:08.440 that Africans were in 0.99

01:22:09.740 the Americas

01:22:10.440 at least a thousand years

01:22:12.420 before Europeans. 0.72

01:22:13.280 So I think

01:22:13.600 certainly the case

01:22:14.980 would be that

01:22:15.660 yes,

01:22:15.940 there is a difference.

01:22:16.940 Why do you think that is?

01:22:20.160 Look,

01:22:20.740 I'm not going to sit here

01:22:21.760 and speculate

01:22:22.100 because there's something

01:22:22.900 better about Africans 0.99

01:22:23.820 that Africans have 1.00

01:22:24.340 a superior morality.

01:22:25.900 I don't,

01:22:26.220 look,

01:22:26.440 there's,

01:22:27.460 I don't know.

01:22:28.560 I mean,

01:22:29.120 it's just the way

01:22:30.360 that when you talk

01:22:31.180 about whiteness,

01:22:32.840 it's implied

01:22:33.700 the way that

01:22:34.980 white people think

01:22:35.940 or white people think.

01:22:36.760 So I want to be clear here

01:22:38.100 that I am not,

01:22:39.700 see,

01:22:39.940 it would be very easy,

01:22:40.820 very easy for me

01:22:41.660 to sit here,

01:22:42.440 but who's my favourite

01:22:43.000 person,

01:22:43.340 back up next,

01:22:43.740 right,

01:22:43.820 and say,

01:22:44.040 look,

01:22:44.180 the devilish nature 0.99

01:22:45.360 of the white man 0.99

01:22:45.900 it just shows,

01:22:46.580 and people say that

01:22:47.240 all the time,

01:22:47.640 I'm actually saying

01:22:48.940 that whiteness 0.99

01:22:49.360 is not a bad...

01:22:50.240 You don't agree

01:22:50.660 with that?

01:22:51.380 No,

01:22:51.600 I don't think

01:22:52.080 all white people 0.98

01:22:52.960 are the devilish. 1.00

01:22:53.600 No,

01:22:53.920 I don't.

01:22:54.180 I think that

01:22:54.860 we can debate

01:22:56.660 what could have happened,

01:22:57.620 what may have happened,

01:22:58.200 why it was,

01:22:58.560 but the reality is

01:22:59.640 that it was

01:23:00.400 that carnage,

01:23:02.460 that racial expectation

01:23:03.500 that was necessary

01:23:04.260 to create

01:23:04.800 the society we have,

01:23:06.240 and that,

01:23:06.560 and so that's why

01:23:07.600 we have whiteness.

01:23:08.020 I'm not challenging that.

01:23:08.540 I don't know,

01:23:09.180 I can't tell you why,

01:23:10.120 but I can tell you

01:23:10.600 that is...

01:23:11.160 But what I'm asking you

01:23:12.620 to think about

01:23:13.580 for the purposes

01:23:14.600 of this guy,

01:23:15.040 I think it's really important

01:23:15.860 to this discussion,

01:23:16.820 right,

01:23:17.020 is you talk about whiteness,

01:23:20.740 it's kind of hard

01:23:21.620 to extricate that 0.98

01:23:22.620 from white people, 0.99

01:23:24.240 it's difficult

01:23:24.880 for most people

01:23:25.580 at least listen to this,

01:23:26.460 right,

01:23:27.080 and it's sort of implied

01:23:28.180 within that

01:23:28.720 that the way

01:23:29.320 whiteness operates

01:23:30.580 is worse than the way

01:23:31.780 other things operate,

01:23:33.160 right,

01:23:33.460 and what I'm asking you

01:23:34.860 is do you think

01:23:35.600 if Africans

01:23:36.280 had the same ability 0.68

01:23:37.620 to dominate

01:23:38.360 the native population

01:23:39.460 of the Americas,

01:23:40.440 would they have

01:23:41.080 behaved the same

01:23:41.920 or different?

01:23:43.100 All right,

01:23:43.280 so yeah,

01:23:43.640 I'll be clear on this,

01:23:44.300 no,

01:23:44.640 I think when I say

01:23:45.740 whiteness is an idea

01:23:46.900 and that is an idea

01:23:49.840 that has come from

01:23:50.420 Western Europe,

01:23:51.280 that is an idea

01:23:52.080 that has used

01:23:52.520 to dominate the world,

01:23:53.900 that was a necessary

01:23:54.920 feature of doing it

01:23:55.840 because Africans

01:23:56.400 went to the New World

01:23:57.660 and didn't do this,

01:23:58.580 so yes,

01:23:58.920 there is something specific.

01:23:59.260 But they didn't have

01:23:59.800 the same technology,

01:24:01.600 they didn't have muskets

01:24:03.180 and et cetera.

01:24:04.440 As I said,

01:24:04.500 when Europeans came 1.00

01:24:05.480 in 40,

01:24:05.880 they weren't massively

01:24:06.600 more technologically advanced.

01:24:08.480 Oh, come on. 0.87

01:24:09.300 There's a reason

01:24:09.820 why the Portuguese 1.00

01:24:10.760 don't have slave plantations

01:24:12.880 in Africa.

01:24:13.760 They can't.

01:24:14.360 They literally can't do it.

01:24:16.020 So it's not the case

01:24:16.660 that Europe's first impact,

01:24:18.060 Europe just comes into Africa 0.93

01:24:19.840 able to control.

01:24:21.260 It's not the case.

01:24:22.000 It takes a long time

01:24:23.840 to develop.

01:24:24.240 The jury's out on that,

01:24:25.140 but let me come back.

01:24:26.800 If they had the technology,

01:24:28.760 of course they would have

01:24:29.580 been the same.

01:24:30.220 I mean,

01:24:30.400 this idea that you didn't have

01:24:32.180 terrible bloodshed happening

01:24:33.960 and prejudice

01:24:34.720 and the same sort of issues

01:24:36.200 of racism happening

01:24:37.440 within Africa,

01:24:38.200 I mean,

01:24:38.880 of course you did.

01:24:39.600 If you look in Central Africa,

01:24:43.340 you had the Bantu

01:24:44.560 were persecuting the pygmies 1.00

01:24:46.000 and killing them. 0.93

01:24:47.080 If you look in Ethiopia, 1.00

01:24:48.760 you had the Bantus themselves 0.96

01:24:50.160 were the victims

01:24:50.860 and being persecuted.

01:24:52.220 In Somalia,

01:24:52.800 the Abyssinians were murdering 1.00

01:24:54.520 and hunting the Shankela, 0.84

01:24:55.980 who are Nilotic Valley people.

01:24:58.200 And this is not about

01:24:59.180 white supremacy.

01:25:00.160 I mean,

01:25:00.380 when African slaves 0.82

01:25:01.580 were taken to Islam,

01:25:04.080 to the Arab world,

01:25:05.160 they were regarded

01:25:05.740 as the lowest social structure

01:25:07.420 because the prejudice is there.

01:25:08.740 Same thing with the Chinese 1.00

01:25:10.620 and the Tang dynasty,

01:25:11.580 who of course regarded

01:25:12.800 African slaves as the Kunlun 1.00

01:25:14.440 and were frightened by them.

01:25:15.560 So this idea

01:25:16.480 that something is unique

01:25:17.540 to the West

01:25:18.100 and unique to white people

01:25:19.120 is simply not true.

01:25:20.580 What is interesting,

01:25:21.280 of course,

01:25:21.660 is the exploration ethic

01:25:23.520 of Europeans,

01:25:24.660 which you don't find.

01:25:25.660 Again,

01:25:26.400 China had a massive fleet.

01:25:27.940 Its ships were far better

01:25:29.100 than European ships.

01:25:30.440 It never discovered

01:25:31.360 the Americas.

01:25:33.480 You don't see the exploration

01:25:34.720 that you saw within Europe,

01:25:35.920 again,

01:25:36.240 because of the distinction

01:25:37.180 of the Western mine

01:25:38.280 and that whole concept

01:25:39.700 of exploring and developing

01:25:40.980 was very much fundamentally

01:25:42.340 a European concept.

01:25:43.440 You know,

01:25:43.960 it's amazing,

01:25:44.480 for example,

01:25:45.120 it also goes down

01:25:45.820 to individuality

01:25:46.680 and the anglosphere.

01:25:47.700 So the first person

01:25:48.560 to walk the length

01:25:49.800 of the Nile

01:25:50.600 was an Englishman

01:25:51.840 and that happened

01:25:52.440 about 10 years ago.

01:25:53.600 Imagine that,

01:25:54.060 after all the thousands

01:25:54.700 of years,

01:25:55.100 the first person

01:25:55.600 to walk the length

01:25:56.160 of the Nile

01:25:56.500 was an Englishman.

01:25:57.560 The first person

01:25:58.120 to walk the length

01:25:58.820 of the Amazon

01:26:00.360 was an Englishman.

01:26:02.180 One second,

01:26:02.940 one second.

01:26:03.440 How do you know this?

01:26:04.060 In recorded history.

01:26:05.420 So you don't know?

01:26:05.920 Well,

01:26:06.260 I'm sorry,

01:26:06.820 we do have records.

01:26:09.340 Records that you have,

01:26:09.940 but you actually don't know.

01:26:10.880 Well,

01:26:11.380 nobody who was African

01:26:13.380 or South American

01:26:14.180 has done it

01:26:14.760 at least within

01:26:15.320 the last 300 years

01:26:16.220 of recorded history.

01:26:18.460 And the first person

01:26:19.700 to walk the length

01:26:20.360 of the Yangtze

01:26:20.880 was a Welshman,

01:26:21.720 again around 10 years ago.

01:26:22.920 Now that's in China 0.70

01:26:23.620 with an ancient civilization.

01:26:24.900 Why did no one

01:26:25.580 from China

01:26:26.000 think about walking

01:26:26.700 the length of the Yangtze?

01:26:28.000 First person

01:26:28.520 to walk around the world

01:26:29.580 and run around the world,

01:26:30.900 American and English.

01:26:32.360 Same thing with Everest

01:26:33.380 and so forth.

01:26:34.000 There is a uniqueness

01:26:34.640 to the West

01:26:35.240 in the idea

01:26:36.340 of exploring

01:26:36.980 and discovering,

01:26:37.960 which you don't see elsewhere.

01:26:39.040 And that's part

01:26:39.500 of the reason

01:26:39.920 why you developed empires.

01:26:40.460 Your point is

01:26:40.980 the British love a walk.

01:26:42.140 I get it.

01:26:43.380 I do want to go back

01:26:44.280 because actually

01:26:44.660 there is something specific

01:26:45.680 about European rationality

01:26:46.780 which is the problem.

01:26:48.380 Tell me.

01:26:49.040 So when,

01:26:50.620 and I think,

01:26:51.160 and again,

01:26:51.740 you don't believe it here

01:26:52.520 but you can't really

01:26:53.480 separate whiteness

01:26:54.100 from this.

01:26:54.740 And so Descartes,

01:26:55.500 I think therefore I am,

01:26:56.720 is really,

01:26:57.180 I'm white and therefore I am.

01:26:58.060 In fact,

01:26:58.200 you've given this argument

01:26:58.880 a bit today.

01:26:59.600 There's something different

01:27:00.260 about Europe.

01:27:00.900 That we're not the natives, 0.98

01:27:01.960 we're not Africans, 0.60

01:27:02.620 we're not this.

01:27:03.340 And that allows

01:27:03.980 the separation of mind

01:27:04.860 from body,

01:27:05.440 which you actually don't see

01:27:06.140 around most of the parts

01:27:06.760 of the world.

01:27:07.060 So African tends to be, 1.00

01:27:08.220 I mean,

01:27:09.080 the Chinese think 0.99

01:27:09.940 they're different.

01:27:10.620 The Japanese think 1.00

01:27:11.420 they're very different.

01:27:12.200 Even with the Chinese, 1.00

01:27:12.720 if you think about

01:27:13.120 the relationship to the earth,

01:27:13.980 you think about,

01:27:15.460 there's something about

01:27:16.300 European rationality,

01:27:17.020 the distancing of it

01:27:17.800 that allows,

01:27:19.500 not just with people

01:27:20.440 but with the world,

01:27:21.140 with the earth,

01:27:21.620 with the,

01:27:21.960 look at,

01:27:22.380 the actual world

01:27:23.280 is going to be destroyed

01:27:24.100 by Europe.

01:27:24.960 Like literally going to be

01:27:25.720 destroyed by science.

01:27:25.880 The Chinese thought

01:27:26.040 they were superior

01:27:26.720 to the whole rest of the world.

01:27:27.920 They stopped developing

01:27:28.780 because they thought

01:27:29.360 they had reached

01:27:29.860 peak civilization.

01:27:30.420 I'm not saying Chinese, 1.00

01:27:31.300 this is not about superiority.

01:27:32.880 Japanese thought

01:27:33.440 they were superior.

01:27:33.880 Right.

01:27:34.180 I'm talking about

01:27:35.000 the separation of mind

01:27:36.700 from body.

01:27:37.140 You don't see that

01:27:37.480 in Chinese culture.

01:27:38.340 There's a much more

01:27:38.960 holistic version

01:27:39.540 of what the person is.

01:27:41.660 When you separate

01:27:42.260 mind from body

01:27:42.860 in that way,

01:27:43.720 you can then distance

01:27:45.020 yourself from certain

01:27:45.900 atrocities in the way

01:27:47.280 that we do.

01:27:47.580 Like today,

01:27:48.560 people,

01:27:48.820 like 9 million people

01:27:49.400 die from hunger today

01:27:50.180 because of the West 0.85

01:27:50.760 and we're going to go,

01:27:51.520 okay,

01:27:52.100 the exploitation of the earth

01:27:53.200 in a way that is actually

01:27:54.040 going to literally

01:27:54.580 destroy the earth.

01:27:55.620 There is,

01:27:55.980 I agree,

01:27:56.300 there's something unique

01:27:57.220 about that

01:27:57.740 in Western rationality

01:27:58.740 which is deeply problematic,

01:27:59.740 which allows us 0.98

01:28:00.460 to kill, 1.00

01:28:00.860 to destroy the world. 1.00

01:28:02.640 And actually

01:28:03.200 get in the world.

01:28:04.320 You know what,

01:28:04.880 we were so close

01:28:06.320 to a point of agreement

01:28:07.260 there because you

01:28:07.960 will both agree.

01:28:08.860 And actually,

01:28:09.420 maybe,

01:28:10.060 maybe,

01:28:11.120 I actually,

01:28:12.520 there is something

01:28:13.280 to what you're saying

01:28:14.300 in the sense that

01:28:15.460 everything has a trade-off,

01:28:17.880 right?

01:28:18.200 So it's possible

01:28:19.080 that a particularly,

01:28:20.580 slightly more rationalistic

01:28:22.140 way of thinking about it

01:28:23.040 has some negative trade-offs

01:28:24.160 and a lot of positive

01:28:24.980 things about it.

01:28:25.800 It actually could be

01:28:26.580 very possible that

01:28:27.360 in some ways

01:28:27.860 you're both right on this.

01:28:30.140 And on that bombshell.

01:28:31.460 And on that bombshell,

01:28:32.700 we've actually managed

01:28:33.680 to get the two of you

01:28:34.480 to agree.

01:28:35.040 No,

01:28:35.240 gentlemen,

01:28:35.580 I actually have to say

01:28:36.240 I really appreciate

01:28:36.840 you both coming.

01:28:37.600 I thought we had

01:28:38.120 a very informative discussion.

01:28:40.320 These debates

01:28:40.980 often descend into stuff.

01:28:42.240 I thought we strayed away

01:28:43.100 from that as much

01:28:43.740 as we could.

01:28:44.980 We'll wrap up

01:28:45.720 in a second,

01:28:46.300 but perhaps you'd like

01:28:47.040 both to take a couple

01:28:47.860 of minutes just to sum up

01:28:48.900 based on this conversation

01:28:49.960 where,

01:28:50.360 you know,

01:28:50.940 just the core of your argument

01:28:52.480 once again for people

01:28:53.300 as we wrap this up.

01:28:54.420 I mean,

01:28:56.020 I'll finish where I started.

01:28:57.640 There are no good arguments

01:28:58.960 against reparators.

01:28:59.860 It's been an interesting conversation,

01:29:01.280 but the fact of this is clear,

01:29:03.520 the knife in the back,

01:29:04.940 it wasn't taken out.

01:29:06.080 And if you can acknowledge

01:29:06.800 that there should have been

01:29:07.880 reparatory justice

01:29:08.780 in 1838 or whatever,

01:29:11.020 and that didn't take place,

01:29:12.420 I just don't see

01:29:13.160 how you can hold the argument

01:29:13.980 that it should take place.

01:29:15.260 There are clear

01:29:15.960 economic consequences

01:29:16.860 which still reverberate

01:29:17.840 around the world

01:29:18.280 from slavery,

01:29:19.220 but not just slavery,

01:29:20.080 colonialism,

01:29:20.520 neocolonialism,

01:29:21.080 et cetera,

01:29:21.380 et cetera,

01:29:21.660 et cetera.

01:29:22.160 There's this huge gap

01:29:23.060 in wealth and experience

01:29:23.820 and life expectancy,

01:29:24.840 not just life expectancy,

01:29:25.720 but just life experience

01:29:26.720 in general

01:29:27.140 that needs to be addressed.

01:29:28.360 And if we're serious

01:29:29.080 about racial justice,

01:29:29.900 the only way to do it

01:29:30.900 is to one,

01:29:31.160 acknowledge it,

01:29:31.900 and then two,

01:29:32.260 address it.

01:29:32.720 And that is going to need

01:29:33.440 reparatory justice.

01:29:35.080 It is time

01:29:36.320 the Caribbean nations

01:29:37.460 and other communities

01:29:38.620 look inwards

01:29:40.460 and see what is it

01:29:41.080 about our culture

01:29:41.840 and our community

01:29:42.500 we need to change,

01:29:43.920 stop this victimhood,

01:29:45.340 learn about

01:29:45.860 personal responsibility,

01:29:47.200 take agency,

01:29:48.100 improve your lot in life,

01:29:49.220 we in Britain

01:29:50.060 should be celebrating

01:29:50.880 the fact that

01:29:51.620 we were the first power

01:29:53.180 to deliberately

01:29:53.740 make itself poorer

01:29:54.760 to advance a moral good.

01:29:56.600 There are no living victims

01:29:58.140 of British Empire slavery

01:29:59.620 and I think we need

01:30:00.920 to move on

01:30:01.440 from this chapter

01:30:02.140 and understand

01:30:02.780 that at its core

01:30:03.720 this is all about

01:30:04.920 undermining Britain,

01:30:06.160 America,

01:30:06.920 and the West

01:30:07.380 more broadly.

01:30:08.060 This is not about slavery.

01:30:09.480 If it was,

01:30:10.720 people would be talking

01:30:11.500 about modern slavery

01:30:12.480 today in Africa

01:30:13.400 with 10 million slaves.

01:30:14.760 That's never spoken about

01:30:16.200 and surely the lives

01:30:17.060 of people today

01:30:17.660 are far more important

01:30:18.600 and the fact that

01:30:19.400 that issue

01:30:19.760 isn't even spoken

01:30:20.580 about once

01:30:21.240 in any article

01:30:22.480 on this subject

01:30:23.080 I think speaks volumes

01:30:24.500 about the true motivations

01:30:25.760 behind a lot of those

01:30:26.700 who are calling for reparations.

01:30:28.320 All right,

01:30:28.460 well I appreciate you

01:30:29.220 both coming.

01:30:29.880 Thank you for watching

01:30:30.840 and listening.

01:30:31.480 I hope you enjoyed it.

01:30:32.260 If you did,

01:30:32.800 make sure to like,

01:30:33.620 subscribe,

01:30:34.160 and share it with others

01:30:35.260 who you think

01:30:35.640 might find it interesting.

01:30:36.480 See you soon.

01:30:37.120 See you soon.

TRIGGERnometry - September 29, 2025

Heated Debate： Slavery, Reparations & Colonialism with Rafe Heydel-Mankoo and Kehinde Andrews

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