TRIGGERnometry - ＂Hollywood Must Stop Lecturing Ordinary People＂ - Clifton Duncan

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00:01:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:08.580 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:09.700 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:14.840 Our terrific guest today is a classically trained professional actor and Broadway veteran, Clifton Duncan.

00:01:20.940 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:22.240 Hey, what's going on, fellas? How are you doing today?

00:01:24.560 Oh, it's great to have you on, man. We've been looking forward to this chat for a long time.

00:01:29.280 For people who don't know who you are, before we get into the conversation itself, tell everybody who are you,

00:01:34.600 how are you, where you are, what has been the journey that leads you here talking to us?

00:01:38.400 Yeah, well, it's kind of funny because I'm not somebody who gets starstruck.

00:01:42.680 I've spent the last few years working with famous people, but it is kind of, it gives me tingles inside to work with people that,

00:01:49.460 or not work with, but to talk to people that I watch on the internet all the time.

00:01:52.220 But yeah, you know, I'm a classically trained actor.

00:01:54.500 I've been based in New York City for 15 years.

00:01:56.800 I moved there originally to attend conservatory training at NYU's Graduate Acting Program,

00:02:03.440 which is one of the top three. It's, you know, it's up there with Juilliard and the Yale School of Drama.

00:02:08.120 And, or Yale School of Trauma, as they call it.

00:02:10.980 And I got out about 10 years ago. I've been working at the top theaters around the country.

00:02:18.380 I've been off-Broadway, I've been on-Broadway, and guest starred on several television series.

00:02:24.020 And for years, I've basically been living a double life.

00:02:27.460 And it's not as though I'm some sort of hard right wingnut.

00:02:33.100 It's just that I am not as enamored with the quote-unquote progressive train.

00:02:39.480 You know, I mean, I don't even know what that word means anymore, as everyone else in the industry seems to be.

00:02:44.540 And I notice, excuse me, I began to notice, especially after Trump's election,

00:02:50.580 I likened the, I don't know if you want to call it the left or the Democrats in America,

00:02:54.520 but it's like watching a corpse writhing in convulsions after receiving a bullet to the head.

00:03:01.240 And I notice this, I want to say, stench of activism that's like, that's flooding different arenas.

00:03:08.140 And it's not just the theater world, which, you know, people complain about Hollywood,

00:03:12.220 but it's more concentrated in the theater realm.

00:03:16.060 But it's also in comic books, it's in video games, it's in all these forms of entertainment.

00:03:20.200 And I fear that there is too much homogeneity and that they're shutting out voices

00:03:26.920 and that what's going to happen is that people, especially now in an era where there's so much technology

00:03:31.200 and there's so many things competing for our attention,

00:03:33.340 where I think we run the risk of sliding into irrelevance and obsolescence just in our industry

00:03:39.840 and risk alienating a lot of people.

00:03:41.780 And I think there's a cultural malaise that's going on and people can feel it, you know,

00:03:46.820 that there's a sort of a cultural death going on.

00:03:49.860 But essentially, I started a Twitter account a year ago and I put my face to it.

00:03:56.640 And I was like, I'm just going to say what I think.

00:03:58.580 And I've developed a strange little following, which I find kind of funny.

00:04:04.280 And I actually had a fortuitous meeting with a young, beautiful lady named Carrie Smith, 0.99

00:04:09.120 who you had recently on your show. And it was a time where there were so many things

00:04:13.980 that were in crisis last year in America. And I just said, someone's got to do something.

00:04:17.880 I'm really stressing out. I think, you know, I saw the way that, and I'm sure we'll get into this

00:04:22.280 later, but I saw the way that just specifically, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement began

00:04:26.980 sweeping through everything, including my industry. And, you know, I'm glad that people like Matthew

00:04:31.640 McConaughey and Isaiah Washington are sort of breaking out. But, you know, they have careers already.

00:04:36.740 What about people who don't have careers? What about people who are one job away or who are

00:04:40.920 still just trying, who are journeyman actors? You know, people like me who, you know, we work,

00:04:45.200 but we're not household names, obviously. And there's, I just think people just need to speak

00:04:49.800 up. And, you know, there's a lot of artists, like ever since I've been speaking, that people have

00:04:54.500 been reaching out to me. And, you know, it can't just be me, but we have to, there needs to be more

00:05:00.060 variety. We're creative people. We're supposed to be expressive. And we drive a lot of elements of

00:05:04.500 culture. And right now, I think we're creating a monoculture and people are, are detaching

00:05:10.040 themselves because of it. And I don't, that's bad for my industry, obviously. And I think it's just

00:05:14.800 bad for the culture as a whole. That's my spiel.

00:05:18.040 Well, yeah. And it's, listen, man, it's great to have you on the show, because I feel like you're

00:05:21.640 part of a group of people who are trying to think for themselves at a time when that is the worst

00:05:28.120 thing you can do from a Korean point of view, right? And that's why we love having people like

00:05:33.580 you and Kerry and others on the show who maybe don't have a huge following, but have something

00:05:37.460 really interesting and original to say. And it's interesting, before I ask you the question,

00:05:42.300 the point you made about journeyman actors, I always felt the same thing about comedy. Even

00:05:47.140 Ricky Gervais, who I've defended recently, who's a brilliant writer, comedian, etc. He always used to

00:05:52.880 say, well, there is no problem with free speech and comedy. Just say what you want. And then,

00:05:57.800 you know, if people like it, they like it. And if they don't, they don't. Which is,

00:06:00.820 if you're Ricky Gervais, that's absolutely true. If you're a club comic, that is absolutely not true.

00:06:07.940 Because as you say, your next gig, your next performance depends on, you know, the people

00:06:12.340 in the industry, the gatekeepers allowing you that opportunity. But let's come back to this idea

00:06:18.040 of leading a double life, because I think that's really fascinating. What has that been

00:06:22.760 like being a Broadway actor, being an actor more generally, and having, you know, as you say,

00:06:29.560 you're not hard, right? I mean, you do look really racist, but. 0.75

00:06:34.980 I was trying to hide it. I have so much makeup on right now. I just, I can't.

00:06:40.000 I can't conceal it.

00:06:41.680 But, but you know what I'm saying? Like, just trying to think for yourself and also feeling like

00:06:46.020 you're genuinely, you know, you're like in a different space where you're not allowed to think

00:06:50.540 for yourself. What's that been like? And what, what happens in the acting industry? Like

00:06:55.480 just stuff that people, ordinary people wouldn't know about?

00:06:58.380 Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it, it, it got to the point, especially after Trump got elected,

00:07:03.200 where, you know, I, I would be at an audition and, you know, the casting director would be

00:07:08.680 like, can you just, can you believe what, what Trump did today? I'm like, bitch, I'm trying to 0.99

00:07:13.980 put this job. I want to work on CBS and pay off my student loans. I don't give, I don't care about 0.99

00:07:18.980 this shit, but, but, but, but, you know, marching back a little bit, I mean, my, my, my training and I, 0.99

00:07:24.700 and I take a lot of pride in my, in my training and my pedigree. And, you know, we learned, 1.00

00:07:31.880 I was taught that curiosity and empathy are two of the cornerstones of the craft of acting.

00:07:37.040 You know, the classic example is if you have to play Hitler, you know, you don't have to like 0.74

00:07:40.460 the guy, but you do have to understand why he took the actions that he took. And when I see so

00:07:46.860 many people who are calling themselves actors, who are incapable of expressing either trait,

00:07:51.540 uh, politically, you know, I have a problem with that, but just in terms of the everyday kind of

00:07:56.980 thing, it's, you know, you're, you're just in an industry where you're paid to be interesting.

00:08:02.200 Essentially, you have to shut a part of yourself down. And I have conversations with people

00:08:07.020 on an, on a one-to-one basis. And I can, I can pick them out now because there's sort of a

00:08:11.860 deadness behind the eyes. And I, and I don't say that's a joke. I mean, it's a real thing because

00:08:15.980 you can actively see and sense people who are cutting off a part of themselves. And the irony,

00:08:21.500 one of the paradoxes of acting is that even though you're using yourself, you know, you're using

00:08:25.620 yourself in the service of other characters. So if I'm playing, uh, uh, Macduff, who is the hero of,

00:08:31.160 of, uh, Macbeth, AKA the Scottish play, you know, there's a scene in the play,

00:08:35.440 one of the central scenes where he learns that Macbeth has slaughtered his wife and his children.

00:08:40.360 And you have to go through those emotions every night, but you have to find your own way. You

00:08:44.220 know, what is it that makes, that triggers these kinds of emotions, this kind of grief,

00:08:47.680 this kind of sorrow in yourself. And if you spend years and years, uh, deadening yourself and deadening

00:08:54.380 your emotions and not expressing yourself and essentially lying to yourself, um, then you're not

00:08:59.460 going to be able to lie truthfully for an audience, if that makes any sense. And it just,

00:09:05.000 it kills, it kills your soul. It kills your artistic spirit. You know that, and you're sitting in these

00:09:10.500 rooms, these rehearsal studios, or you're on set talking to people and me, it's not, and again,

00:09:14.940 it's not, I'm a, I'm a hard, a hard right conservative or anything like that. Although,

00:09:18.380 you know, I, I have, I do have my proud boys tattoo on my, on my left back as I, you know,

00:09:24.680 as I tap my right, you know, it's, but you hear the things that people say, you, you, you, you can

00:09:30.200 tell that they've never bothered to engage with any sort of, uh, any heterodox or, or, or, or

00:09:37.060 conservative or libertarian thinking. And they just make these blanket statements. And at a certain

00:09:41.140 point you realize, you know, these people would not piss on me if I were on fire. And it's not,

00:09:45.760 and again, it's not as though I'm dropping in bombs and talking about Jewish conspiracies and how women

00:09:50.100 shouldn't vote. I'm just saying that there is, you know, men are not the same as women. And I

00:09:55.960 think we should take that into account. And if, and if we keep trying to, if we keep ignoring that,

00:10:00.720 we're going to keep imposing these things. Like there was just an example. Someone was doing Othello

00:10:05.140 and they tried to do a genderless Othello. Well, one of the story elements in Othello is that, you

00:10:10.160 know, it's, there's a fraternity of men. It's a very militaristic play. You have these guys who are in

00:10:15.400 the army and they've been through battle together. And any soldier will tell you that there's

00:10:19.680 nothing like the bond between brothers on the battlefield. And part of the play, part of the

00:10:23.460 tragedy of the play is that Othello's trust is broken and it devastates him. And it leads to,

00:10:29.040 it leads to him murdering his wife in the last scene of the play. I mean, it's, it's that intense.

00:10:34.100 And if you don't, if you don't understand the dynamics between men and women, if you don't,

00:10:39.000 if you try to ignore the dynamics among men and those kinds of emotions that, that, that can,

00:10:43.900 you know, loyalty, brotherhood, that, that, and how, what that means for those to be broken,

00:10:47.900 you're going to dramatically blunt the, the, the potency of the piece. And, you know, and,

00:10:56.360 and I just think that in an industry where you're supposed to be creative and you're supposed to be

00:10:59.640 interesting, you need to allow all kinds of opinions and views. And, and if you're only coming

00:11:04.080 from one perspective, I mean, I've been in a room so many times where I'm like, I'll give you an

00:11:07.720 example. I was doing a show off Broadway and it was a revival of a, it was a pretty big deal. And

00:11:13.980 it was one of those things where I said, well, you know, men and women are in the workforce for

00:11:17.300 the first, it was set in 1947. And just me even saying that men and women being in the workforce

00:11:23.580 together at the same time for the first time and, and beginning to try to begin a dialogue

00:11:28.180 from a rehearsal and a storytelling standpoint of how can we as actors activate this seat,

00:11:34.100 this tension between the men and women who are working together, maybe for the first time,

00:11:38.080 they're not used to being around each other. What does that mean? How do they navigate that?

00:11:40.920 I mean, it's, it's, it's nerdy actor stuff, but it's the kind of stuff that we do, the kind of

00:11:45.080 thought we put into what we do so that when you guys sit there and you want to disconnect for a

00:11:49.100 couple of hours, you can get swept away and wrapped up and wrapped up in it. And, um, but it became this

00:11:54.100 thing like, no, women have always been working. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not insulting women. I'm trying 0.69

00:12:00.480 to, to, you know, and, and that, but that's what it is. You're pushing up against this orthodoxy.

00:12:05.200 And I've, and I've been saying this for years. It's, it's a secular religion now. And if you,

00:12:10.060 if you say anything bad, you know, whiteness is the original sin. Hell is the cis heteronormative 1.00

00:12:15.140 patriarchy. Heaven is a feminist utopia and God is a black transgendered quadriplegic in the hijab. 1.00

00:12:21.620 It's a, it's a strange religion. But yeah, you express that beautifully because I am a similar 0.98

00:12:30.460 background to you. I went to one of these conservatoires. I, I then taught drama for,

00:12:35.560 for, for, yeah, for a long time. Um, the actors. I love the way even the American actor is making

00:12:41.640 fun of you trying to sound posh. It's great. Yeah. I went to the central school of speech and

00:12:47.380 trauma darling. Amazing. I mean, we can bond over that in gin and tonics, but yeah, exactly. Um,

00:12:56.780 the question that I wanted to ask Clifton is this, it's the actors that I love, the ones that I

00:13:02.320 worshiped when I was wanting to do it, were people like Richard Harris, the Peter O'Toole's,

00:13:07.120 you know, the Richard Burton's, the hell raisers, the people who took life by the bulls and lived every

00:13:12.740 moment of it. And then when you saw them on screen, it, it imbued that their performance

00:13:17.880 was such a life. Why is it we've now fallen in love with the conformance and the insipid as artists?

00:13:23.620 Isn't that what we're meant to be railing against? Well, that's, that's exactly how I feel about it.

00:13:27.580 I mean, I, I love Richard Burton and you read about him, the sort of life that he led and, you know,

00:13:31.740 and these people who are so full of life and vitality. And, and I think part of the reason,

00:13:36.780 you know, it's one of the reasons that you don't see it on, you know, a Laurence Olivier or something

00:13:39.940 or someone who's that dynamic, you know, either it's, we don't have a culture now that has need

00:13:45.460 for or produces these kinds of, of, of artists, um, in my opinion, or, or, or, and, or, you know,

00:13:52.900 I mean, I've been told oftentimes, you know, about my vitality and, and I enjoy being on stage and I

00:13:57.340 love filling a huge theater and just being, you know, big in so many ways. But, but also I recognize

00:14:04.660 that increasingly I'm in an industry where just as a male, uh, there is a, and then someone who's

00:14:11.740 a proudly masculine male, uh, you know, there's this, a, a, a pushback and a lack of, uh, consideration

00:14:20.620 for, for what that means and, and the power of that. And, uh, so I, I feel like that sort of heat,

00:14:27.580 that sort of fire that, that, that we love in our favorite actors. I mean, it's, it's been

00:14:32.020 sort of pushed out of the industry as it's been taken over by these other people who,

00:14:38.120 and I don't want to say taken over, but, you know, cause part of it is just, it's,

00:14:40.580 it's almost an organic process in a way, just thinking of the time, the types of people that

00:14:44.800 are drawn to careers in the arts. But, uh, you know, there's, I don't know if we have the culture

00:14:51.780 and then the ironic, the irony is then, you know, we keep hiring Australian actors or British actors

00:14:56.740 or whatever, who aren't maybe as, uh, you know, I mean, we, we have our, we have our Chris Hemsworths,

00:15:02.580 you know, who, who come over our, our, our Henry Cavills, our Russell Crowes and everything. And

00:15:06.620 it's like, and I asked my manager actually, and she didn't miss a beat when she answered. I said,

00:15:09.780 why are we hiring, hiring all of these? Why, why are these Europeans and these Aussies taking our jobs? 1.00

00:15:15.420 And, uh, and she was just, and she just, she just said, you know, they're more manly.

00:15:22.140 And that was it, you know, and it's, I feel like it's an open secret. And, and, and I, and I feel

00:15:27.240 like, you know, when you see, uh, actors like Jason Momoa enjoy such success, I mean, there,

00:15:34.700 there's a reason for that. And I feel like what Hollywood figured out a long time ago is that men and

00:15:39.480 women will pay, it's, it's maybe partly biological, but I think also just pure economics where men and 1.00

00:15:45.060 women will pay money to go see people that they find attractive and interesting on the screen. 1.00

00:15:49.560 And, um, and part of your attractiveness as a man has, doesn't have as much to do with,

00:15:55.660 you know, your physical appearance as it has to do with, you know, what, what, what do you have

00:15:59.520 going on inside and what kind of fire do you have? You know, are you defiant? You know, do you stand

00:16:04.400 up for yourself? Are you funny? Are you smart? Are you quirky? And, um, you know, I think when you have

00:16:10.400 an industry where, um, increasingly these types of traits aren't valued and, and you, and you have

00:16:18.200 to constantly sort of censor yourself and so much about it and so much, so much about what we do now

00:16:23.520 is about being kind and as harmless as possible. And I was taught that, you know, you want to be

00:16:29.480 bold and dangerous. You want to take risks in your art. I mean, that that's our favorite comedians do

00:16:33.900 that. All the best actors do that. You know, they, they say outrageous things or daring things,

00:16:38.960 or they go places emotionally that you're like, Ooh, I don't, I don't want to be there. You know,

00:16:42.840 I'm glad I wasn't on set that day. That might've been kind of awkward. Um, but there's just not as

00:16:48.160 much of a, a push for that. And I feel, and I feel like audiences, even if they can't articulate

00:16:52.700 that, I feel like they feel that. And that worries me. And the other thing that worries me is the fact

00:16:58.660 that whenever I watch certain programs now, more and more, I just feel that I'm being lectured to.

00:17:04.440 Why does art and entertainment have to be a lecture? Why does it have to be political?

00:17:09.560 I mean, some of it certainly can be, and some of it should.

00:17:11.800 All right, dial down the white fragility. Come on. 0.94

00:17:15.240 No, you can just, all you can hear Clifton are my white tears hitting the floor.

00:17:19.840 I know, I know.

00:17:21.660 But, but why is that?

00:17:24.240 You know, it, well, it goes back to what I said about it. It's, it's more of a religion than

00:17:28.080 anything else. It's, it's an orthodoxy. I just had this thought last night that, uh, um, Tyler Perry,

00:17:32.640 who your countryman may not be familiar with. He's a, he's a black American, uh, filmmaker

00:17:37.640 and sort of mogul who began his career doing, uh, stage plays, what are called chitlin circuit

00:17:43.300 plays, which, you know, they appeal to a very specific, uh, demographic. And, you know, he

00:17:48.360 had this character called Medea, you know, he basically, it's like the black missed out 1.00

00:17:51.960 fire in a way, dresses in drag, sort of violent. And, and, um, you know, people have a lot of

00:17:56.540 things to say about Tyler Perry. You know, I, I, you know, I'm not his target audience,

00:18:01.080 but I do appreciate his talent and, you know, you, you can have nothing but respect for the,

00:18:05.100 for the guy who, I mean, he's one of the few people right now he's here in Atlanta. You know,

00:18:09.180 he has a whole studio movie studio that's operating right now. Um, during, during, uh,

00:18:13.720 during the time of COVID and he's built, I mean, he's a billionaire. I mean, he's really forged

00:18:17.500 his own path in the entertainment industry, but the thing about his place that's that, you know,

00:18:21.720 he's very, very Christian and he's deeply religious. And so what you see is when you,

00:18:26.220 when you watch his plays or his films, not saying that your audience has to go and, and, and, and do

00:18:31.100 that, but there's a point, there's always a point where the narrative stops dead in its tracks and

00:18:38.080 the character either bursts into song to sing about Jesus or some other character begins to talk about,

00:18:44.520 you know, we need to just pray right now and praise God and this sort of a thing. And I feel like

00:18:49.420 that's how people feel, you know, maybe on a subconscious level when they, when they're watching their,

00:18:54.320 you know, their favorite movie. And I mean, prime example, uh, Avengers infinity war, uh, you know,

00:19:00.760 I, I, I, I love that movie to death. And there's that great scene when they're batting that climactic

00:19:05.340 Wakanda battle scene where it's, uh, it's, you know, Scarlett Johansson and Danai Gurira, who's a

00:19:10.280 graduate of the school that I went to, and she's amazing. And, uh, and, uh, Elizabeth Olsen and,

00:19:15.680 you know, it's like the girls. And then they have like the female, uh, Thanos, uh, demon or what I can't

00:19:20.280 remember what her name is. And, and in a way you're like, Oh snap, it's a cat fight. And it's a cool

00:19:25.680 scene. And then you fast forward to Avengers end game. And everyone knows the moment that I'm about

00:19:31.920 to reference where they're in that climactic battle with Thanos, like the world is ending, you know,

00:19:36.920 everything is going bad. And then, uh, I forgot who, which character it was. It's one of the female

00:19:41.360 superheroes. And she's like down and, and then like, she needs help. And all the, the female characters,

00:19:47.100 you know, who are, they suddenly find themselves converging all in the same spot during this

00:19:52.120 climactic battle with all of Thanos is like, you know, henchmen and demons, there's this huge war

00:19:57.060 going on, but they all find a moment to unite together and have this girl power moment where

00:20:01.040 it's like, you know, she has help and it's all slow motion. And, and people just watch it and

00:20:05.680 they're like, Oh man, come on. It's just, you, you, you stopped the plot and the forward progression

00:20:12.440 of the story to preach to me about how women are great in a manner similar to now we're stopping

00:20:18.960 this Tyler Perry show to preach to the audience about how God is great. And I think that people

00:20:26.780 that, you know, if they want to be sermonized to, they'll go to church. You know, when I'm,

00:20:32.220 when I'm watching a Marvel movie, I want to be that, that weird adult in the back of the theater

00:20:37.260 with his pop, curled up with his popcorn, watching a bunch of, you know, pew pew and, and CGI and 0.98

00:20:42.240 people in tight suits doing, you know, fantastical shit. I don't care. I don't, you know, I don't 0.99

00:20:47.160 care. I mean, this is, you're talking about comic books. It's a medium that features aliens and

00:20:51.940 animals, you know, and, and robots as, as their, as their main characters. So, you know, I don't think

00:20:57.200 that the comic book going audience of a general movie going audience, you know, really is in the mood

00:21:03.040 to, or needs to be lectured to about how wonderful women are. I think a lot of them kind of feel 0.98

00:21:06.940 that way. And, you know, and we're, we're inhibiting our storytelling ability and prowess by

00:21:10.800 continuing to inject these sorts of. It's a great point. And the thing that makes some of

00:21:15.880 these characters really fascinating, like if you take Marvel, like for instance, Tony Stark,

00:21:21.080 or if you go back towards Shakespeare, it's the fact that our heroes are flawed. That's where the

00:21:26.980 interesting thing is that they have the heroic qualities, but they also have their flaws, whatever

00:21:31.560 hero is, whether it's someone like Hamlet, who's, you know, filled with hubris and pomposity or

00:21:36.140 whatever it may be. And it just seems that more and more, we've just got these archetypes that are

00:21:41.600 constantly presented to us. Yeah. It's, um, you know, but, but they're archetypes that aren't

00:21:47.500 really tied to anything that we recognize as human. Exactly. You know, that's exactly what I was

00:21:53.460 thinking when Francis said archetypes, because I was like, well, they are archetypes, but they have no

00:21:58.080 resemblance to anything real. Right. Yeah. So the archetype of masculinity and femininity that we are now

00:22:04.540 being presented with, you know, that's the issue that you raised has no bearing on how men and women

00:22:09.980 actually show themselves in the world. Right. That's the interesting thing here, isn't it?

00:22:15.900 Yeah. You know, it's, and it's, that's why it's, it's just so, and again, I feel like audiences know

00:22:20.520 that and, and they, and they, and they feel that and they're not interested in it. And, and, and it's

00:22:24.660 also in a way it's, it's sort of insulting to them. You know, there was a, there was a series that,

00:22:30.360 that, that I auditioned for. And, you know, it was like this, this lead in a new set in a space

00:22:37.500 station, you know, and it was one of those things where, you know, surprisingly all the positions of

00:22:42.160 command were filled by, by women. And, and there was one scene, it was a flashback with a character

00:22:47.120 I was auditioning for was, was with his then partner, his spouse. And there's a scene where,

00:22:52.620 you know, and it says, you know, in the script, you know, these are two people who are in peak

00:22:56.560 physical condition. And, and so you have this man and this woman and they, and they finish up

00:23:03.000 whatever run they're doing and they start sprinting. And it's so, it was, it's so hilarious

00:23:07.560 because I'm reading this and I'm like, okay, they're sprinting. And I feel like I know what's

00:23:11.060 coming. And then in italics, it's like, and she wins. I'm like, hold on a second. Hold on a second.

00:23:18.300 Like, like I ran track in high school. I still, or athletics as it's called overseas where people can

00:23:22.580 actually make money doing it. And I, I said, wait a minute. Now I know the differential. If

00:23:28.740 you're a woman and you can run the 200 meter dash in under 22 seconds, that's world-class. 1.00

00:23:34.400 But if you're a man and you can't, and you cannot, like if you run that same time, you'll get the

00:23:39.340 doors blown off of you by high schoolers, you know? And so, so when I auditioned for it, I just

00:23:44.900 pretended that I got a cramp or something like that, because that's the only way that I as an actor

00:23:48.960 can justify that I, that I am peak physical condition who, you know, who knows how to run

00:23:55.600 and who is in shape and, you know, knows proper form and everything. There's no, I'm sorry. Like

00:23:59.400 you ain't going to beat, the girl's not going to beat me unless something happens. And I'm like,

00:24:03.840 and you know, I've auditioned for, for things where it's like, you know, I'm a special,

00:24:07.040 I'm a specially trained special forces agent, but somehow I lose in a combat, in combat to

00:24:12.320 my smaller female counterpart. And the irony of it is you begin to see how these sorts of 0.88

00:24:18.500 they begin to push so far in single directions that, that then these begin to cross over into

00:24:23.720 weird areas for political correctness. So isn't it kind of strange that you, you know, you're so

00:24:29.300 dedicated to, to female empowerment that you have this small white woman beating the shit out of a 1.00

00:24:33.680 black man. That's sort of, that's sort of strange, isn't it? Isn't it, isn't it, isn't it kind of weird 1.00

00:24:39.560 that, you know, there's another show. Come on brother, don't stand in the way of progress. A small white 1.00

00:24:44.060 woman beating up a black guy is exactly what progress is all about. You need to acknowledge 1.00

00:24:48.960 it. We, we, we, we've come so far just to come, but you know, but there's another example of,

00:24:55.240 of, you know, there was a show and it's one of these sort of body positivity thing. And I can go

00:24:59.480 on a rant about, you know, about that for a long time, but you know, it was like, I was auditioning

00:25:04.380 for it as this black British, you know, fit, you know, handsome guy who wanted to really, 0.97

00:25:11.780 who really, really wanted to have sex with the, the female lead who was this like overweight, 1.00

00:25:17.560 you know, white woman. And, you know, and I see what they're trying to do. I know what they're, 0.99

00:25:22.260 I know the message they're trying to send. But again, me as a, as someone watching this, I'm like,

00:25:26.600 okay, if you're a big, tall, sexy British guy, you're going to be slaying all kinds of American 1.00

00:25:31.400 pussy. You're not going to like wait up for, you know, for, for, for this. I mean, 1.00

00:25:37.540 so he's not hard, but he is very problematic because, because you have to be real. You have

00:25:45.840 to be honest. It doesn't, you know what I'm, I'm serious though. Cause it doesn't take away from

00:25:50.140 like, you know, like I appreciate that, that human beings are, are vastly adaptable and multivariate

00:25:55.460 species and not, and that not everybody fits into, uh, uh, you know, traditional boxes or whatever.

00:26:01.500 And that, and that, and I think that's cool. It's just that don't, don't tell, don't try to,

00:26:07.200 don't try to get me to lie. Stop getting me to lie about this shit because it denigrates the work 0.98

00:26:13.320 and it's insulting again to the audience because they can see it as well and just stop lying. 0.99

00:26:17.320 And they're not watching it. Look at the ratings for shows like Dr. Who or Supergirl or, uh, or,

00:26:22.720 or Star Trek or Star Wars. You know, the, the, these franchises are now losing money and, um,

00:26:28.520 it's because people are watching these things and they're saying, this is not true. And even

00:26:32.760 though you say, well, it's Star Wars, Star Trek or whatever, it's science fiction. But yeah,

00:26:35.940 the reasons that those stories work is because they are rooted in things that we know are true.

00:26:40.060 It's why we still do Greek plays. We still do Shakespeare. We still do Chekhov because they're

00:26:44.100 rooted in play and human truths that, that we know. And, you know, and, and it's not that you

00:26:49.960 can't tell stories, you know, from an alternative point of view, there was a play that was recently

00:26:53.960 done at New York city's Lincoln center, which is one of the most prestigious theaters here.

00:26:57.500 And I can't remember the name of it, but it was set in Uganda. The main characters were gay.

00:27:02.120 And if people don't know, I believe it's still a criminal to be homosexual in Uganda.

00:27:07.500 And the play was this really tense, suspenseful piece about this, about how these two central

00:27:14.280 characters, these two men, they're in love and they have to hide it, but there's all this pressure

00:27:19.160 from the government, from their families, you know, and it's a really taught drama, you know,

00:27:23.960 like we want, but it's rooted in this thing of like, okay, people trying to be themselves

00:27:27.880 and try and they're in love. We want to see people in love, but then how do they fight off

00:27:32.860 all these oppressive forces? What's going to happen? These people are in danger. Are they

00:27:36.000 going to make it? That's, that's what we want to watch. We don't care if they're gay 1.00

00:27:39.100 or not. We don't care if they're trans or not. There's a film called a pariah that came 0.94

00:27:42.880 out years ago. It was a black, it was a coming of age story about a young black lesbian in New York

00:27:47.400 City, you know, and, and all the familial turmoil and, you know, discovering herself and finding

00:27:52.140 herself that we've all went through because we've all been through puberty or a gun Hill

00:27:56.160 road, the coming of age story about a young Latino transgender, who's going from male to female.

00:28:01.000 It's the same sort of thing, you know, awkward, awkward love scenes. She's trying to find herself

00:28:05.680 and, you know, and date and figure out who, who they are. These are things that we can,

00:28:09.780 that we can all watch and all key into. But I think they, I think people are so stuck on this

00:28:14.460 idea that I have to put this message in there and teach people that, you know, it's like, no,

00:28:19.360 just don't teach me. Don't, you know, don't, don't, the classic saying is don't tell me,

00:28:23.280 show me, just show me.

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00:31:46.320 And it's a great point because there comes a point where they put this type of messaging in

00:31:53.320 and it becomes so patronizing that it actually becomes offensive. I think the shot, I never

00:31:59.660 watched it, but I read a lot about it, was called Hollywood. And it was sort of a woke reimagining

00:32:04.100 of what Hollywood was like during the golden age in the 50s. And they had this sort of reimagining

00:32:09.200 of Rock Hudson, who was a closeted gay man and was the first celebrity to die of AIDS. And

00:32:14.780 people who were close to him actually got very upset about it because they were like,

00:32:19.200 you're tarnishing his legacy. By saying, oh, this woke reimagining, you're not understanding

00:32:25.480 the struggle that he had and the fact that he could never be honest about who he was

00:32:29.220 to the point that it actually becomes offensive because you're whitewashing his life and his

00:32:34.620 existence.

00:32:35.080 Yeah. Yeah. And in just that story, you know, of course, I want to see that movie. What is

00:32:41.940 the psychological toll on a Rock Hudson of having to hide who he is? I mean, you know,

00:32:47.560 to remain in the closet, as it were, as many people politically do right now in the industry.

00:32:53.020 Another example I think of is It's a Wonderful Life. You know, it's one of my favorite movies

00:32:58.980 when I first saw it. I mean, I ugly cried for about an hour afterward. And come to find out

00:33:04.200 that Frank Capra, who made the film, is a conservative Republican, which I had no idea

00:33:08.000 when I was watching it. And, you know, and I'm an atheist, but I'm sitting here being

00:33:11.220 deeply moved by this film, which starts out, the opening scene is angels talking in space.

00:33:17.560 The pivotal plot moment is a guardian angel comes down and pretty much saves Jimmy Stewart's

00:33:22.020 life. And I'm like, how many other It's a Wonderful Life are we keeping out of the industry?

00:33:29.280 And how many experiences are we robbing potential audiences of, you know, these kinds of catharsis

00:33:34.800 by instead saying that, you know, well, we have to teach these people how they're supposed to be.

00:33:41.820 No one goes to watch the movie to learn how they're supposed to be.

00:33:47.160 That's not my job. My job is to entertain so you can kind of sit and forget the drudgery of

00:33:52.740 your life for a little bit and, you know, laugh, you know, or be amazed or astounded or something.

00:33:59.280 Uh, Clifton, I'm curious to ask, change tack a little bit, uh, and coming back to the industry

00:34:04.260 itself. Uh, what is it like being black? Uh, and what I mean by that is, well, I mean,

00:34:11.880 that's a great fucking question. Can I just say when he asked that question, I want Anton, 0.97

00:34:16.800 the producer to edit me out. I don't want to be associated. Hey, I just want to know what

00:34:21.780 it's like, man, the lived experience. No, but seriously, you know, the reason I'm asking is that

00:34:29.260 you know, in the comedy world, like I would find myself where in the space of 24 hours,

00:34:35.580 I would be discriminated against for being dark skinned. And then later that day, I'd be having

00:34:42.000 a conversation with somebody in the comedy world who'd be like, well, yeah, I'm sorry. We don't

00:34:45.740 need any more straight white men like you. Right. So there's all this like tokenization that's 0.99

00:34:50.780 happening. Did you find that when you were working, that more was made of your race than,

00:34:56.760 than you made of it, frankly? You know, I, I think so. And, um, you know, I've been thinking

00:35:03.240 a lot about this in terms of, uh, how, you know, I mean, I did the, the irony is I did not really

00:35:10.080 think of my race until I began, I began acting. And, um, if I may, you know, talk a little bit at

00:35:16.180 length about it. Um, it, it, it, my journey with this, you know, I, I first went to grad school and

00:35:26.360 it's a three-year program. And that, that first year I was very obsessed with, Hey, did I lose

00:35:33.320 you? You guys are frozen. No, we're here. We're here. We're here. We're here. It's all good. Maybe,

00:35:37.300 maybe it's just on my end. Francis is just desperately trying not to be racist.

00:35:40.580 So he's frozen in space. He's frozen. He doesn't want to say or do anything.

00:35:44.440 It's just that white man face about to say something. It's like pink on the cheeks.

00:35:48.760 He's like, I'm, it's the white gaze. I'm looking at him. Um, but, uh, my, you know, my first year,

00:35:55.380 you know, I, I was very obsessed with this idea that, uh, you know, I mean, cause I sing and I rap as

00:36:01.120 well. And I was like, I don't want to be the black guy in class who sings and raps. That's so 1.00

00:36:05.580 stereotypical. You know, I'm, I'm smart and I'm articulate and, you know, and so it became this

00:36:10.500 thing where I was trying to prove to everyone else in a weird way that I'm not who I am. And

00:36:16.360 over a certain period, I had this experience at this prestigious, uh, um, uh, summer theater, uh,

00:36:23.840 up in the Berkshires. Uh, and there was a point where I said, you know what? If other people cannot

00:36:33.360 see me as anything other than a black man, that that is their problem. I'm a human being first.

00:36:40.180 I'm not my demographic or whatever label you want you might assign to me. And it was sort of

00:36:46.900 driven home to me like this last night I'm there and I'm in this dorm room and you know, there's a

00:36:51.940 bunch of white people that, that are, you know, that are gathered outside, um, singing around a

00:36:55.480 bonfire and, you know, and I'm like, you know, if you've got, if you've got a bunch of white folks

00:36:58.500 together, like somebody's going to have a guitar and there's going to be a bonfire built probably.

00:37:02.540 And I'm sitting here in my room, just like, man, they don't understand me that, you know,

00:37:06.980 they don't, you know, I'm a black man. They don't really get me. And I said, wait a minute,

00:37:10.780 I'm sitting in here by myself feeling like a loser wanting to jump out the window, you know,

00:37:15.400 head first, they're having the time of their lives. You know, I realized that I'm the one who's

00:37:20.520 putting these barriers up. I'm the one who is presuming their hostility towards me. So then I went out

00:37:27.380 there and when I joined them, finally there, you know, they were so excited and it was just a great

00:37:31.000 time. And that was a big lesson for me of, you know, this idea that, you know, the world is out

00:37:35.820 to get me and that, uh, and that other people are obligated to just accept me as I am, as opposed to

00:37:42.520 me coming halfway. You know, maybe I could learn about your culture. You know, maybe I can learn

00:37:46.260 your favorite Beatles songs or your, you know, or, or Bob Dylan and expand my repertoire. And I can tell

00:37:51.280 you about, you know, a tribe called quest or Talib Kweli or something like, Oh, we can, let's be where,

00:37:54.900 I mean, they're already listening to that. You know, white people love these people, but, um,

00:38:00.280 so that was, that was part of the, the evolution. And, um, slowly I began to evolve from worrying

00:38:08.780 a lot about what black people in the audience might think of me, um, to just not giving a shit 0.96

00:38:15.820 because prime example, I played Caliban, um, uh, in Washington DC and, you know, Caliban, for those 0.99

00:38:22.080 who don't know is a slave. He is explicitly a slave in Shakespeare's, the tempest. And, you

00:38:28.100 know, my costume, I literally had chains on me, you know what I mean? And I knew going in like,

00:38:32.000 Oh boy, this is going to be really interesting. But I was the one in the rehearsal room who was

00:38:36.720 like, yeah, man, like whip me around, throw me around, like do whatever you want, like abuse 0.66

00:38:40.600 me. Let's go for it a hundred percent. Everyone else was very afraid of it. And then later on 0.58

00:38:45.920 people who, you know, people who don't know the plot, uh, uh, Caliban, you know, this pitiful

00:38:51.900 slave is, you know, he, he meets these two wacky characters who are basically clowns and he ends

00:38:56.180 up worshiping them as like gods to save them essentially. And so I'm like kissing this white 1.00

00:39:00.240 man's foot on stage. We had high school matinees where you had these black kids from DC, Washington,

00:39:04.520 DC public schools who were just like, Oh, and, and I'm like, you know what, man, but that's in the

00:39:09.900 play. That's what the script is. And, and I can't stop whatever baggage people are going to bring

00:39:15.420 to it. And people still complained rather than me playing one of the great roles in Shakespeare

00:39:19.780 and doing it. Well, you know, I have the receipts, you know, people complain that I can't believe

00:39:25.320 that they have this black man here in DC playing a slave, ignoring the fact that there was another

00:39:30.320 black male actor in the cast who was playing the son of the King of Naples, who we thought was dead, 0.98

00:39:35.900 which means this nigga is now the King of Naples. He's royalty. He's royalty. And they're like, 1.00

00:39:41.820 but he's like, you know, there's a scene in the Tempest where Prospero, the main wizard, you know,

00:39:46.880 character forces this prince to, you know, just do menial slave labor just to test, you know,

00:39:55.440 who he is. And, you know, cause he wants to court off his daughter, you know, it's one of those old

00:39:58.540 Shakespeare plays. And I'm like, you have this black man playing a slave and this other black man who's 0.70

00:40:02.940 also doing slave work. I'm like, he's the King. He's the King right now. But you're ignoring that

00:40:07.960 because all you see is, is black people. So I, you know, I just, I, I released myself from this 1.00

00:40:14.220 pressure to be a certain type of way for an audience. But on top of that, you know, there's

00:40:19.460 the question of skillset and this idea of this, this myth that, uh, you know, what black men only

00:40:27.180 get seen for certain types of roles. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, well, I speak a certain

00:40:30.940 way. I learned how to do Shakespeare. I learned how to handle, you know, complex texts and those,

00:40:35.860 those skills, uh, they, they, they fan outward. So if you know how to do, if you can work your way

00:40:42.180 through Hamlet or Cymbeline, one of Shakespeare's later plays, which is really fucking weird, uh,

00:40:47.560 you can pick up a piece of legal jargon from a procedural, uh, or, or a medical procedural

00:40:52.600 and, and activate it and make it interesting, you know? And so when I hear people come to me,

00:40:57.700 be like, man, black people, you know, they're not getting seen in these roles. I'm like, well, 1.00

00:41:00.840 you know, have you worked on your skillset and, you know, have you made yourself more

00:41:06.280 hireable? But I found myself in this weird position now where I really feel like a diversity

00:41:11.080 hire. And it's not because I have this, the, the, the chops and the experience, you know,

00:41:16.480 I could, I can, I can do Oscar Wilde. I can do Shakespeare. I can do Chekhov. I can do August

00:41:21.320 Wilson. I can do, uh, on camera work. I can do a Broadway musical. Um, I have these skills

00:41:27.360 and this versatility, but you're only hiring me here because you wanted to have a, you wanted

00:41:32.060 to have the picture of a black person on stage. I was working on a show that was supposed to go

00:41:36.100 to Broadway where my character was a humpback and I, I totally, you know, Francis will get this.

00:41:41.700 I totally went like Richard III on, I was like, you know, ah, you know, and, and the director was

00:41:46.220 like, um, maybe not so much, but, um, you know, maybe it's more psychological. And I said, okay.

00:41:51.460 And then he said, and he goes, well, you know, Clifton, he was, he was British. I'm going to do a

00:41:55.140 really bad accent right now, but he just said, he's like, it might be that in this era, people

00:42:01.500 might view your skin color as a handicap. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? You

00:42:10.520 know, it's, it's, it's this weird, and they, and they chased me so hard for this role. And at that

00:42:16.600 moment I began to realize, oh, wait a minute. So they have my friend who's playing the servant maid,

00:42:20.820 who's a black woman, who's a very dynamic performer. And she's down here in Atlanta with me,

00:42:23.980 actually, um, uh, Broadway caliber performer. And, but then you said, holy shit, we have 0.99

00:42:30.480 a black woman playing the maid. I guess we better have a black guy to play the master 1.00

00:42:35.180 of the estate. And in that moment I felt like, okay, you know, I mean, at the time, I mean, 0.86

00:42:44.720 I made my Broadway debut in a play called, you may have heard of it called the play that

00:42:48.100 goes wrong. And I'm doing, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a British farce. It's, it's a British 0.94

00:42:52.520 farce. Right. So they see, darling, I do know theater. Yeah. See, there we go. Um, you're

00:42:56.860 just as gay as I am, Francis, you know, but, but so they brought it over to Broadway and 0.96

00:43:03.240 then they replaced the, the, the original British cast with an American cast. And so I'm doing

00:43:07.460 every night, I'm literally, you know, doing upper crust, you know, uh, standard, uh, standard

00:43:14.180 British. I am doing the accent, you know, it's, and I've had so much practice doing

00:43:19.820 it. And yet it's not that I have that skillset that I, that I have this sort of dramatic darkness

00:43:26.560 and I have this, you know, baritone voice and I have a great blend of vulnerability and,

00:43:31.900 and, and danger and, and humor that I can bring into a role. It's, uh, you know, it's, it's

00:43:38.120 black guy. It's not, it's not, it's not that I have years of experience and dedication

00:43:42.180 in this, you know, and again, I say, I take pride in it, you know, people look down on

00:43:45.660 actors and I understand why, but, you know, there are those of us out there who just genuinely

00:43:50.440 enjoy what we do and, and we enjoy performing for audiences and, and it's, and there's a

00:43:55.780 process and a craft that goes into it. And when you study for a long time to become good

00:44:01.120 at it, a great personal and financial sacrifice, by the way, I mean, I could be married by now

00:44:05.260 I could have children by now, but we both wanted to be actors. And so we decided to go our

00:44:09.900 separate ways. I've given up so much. And for you to tell me that I'm only here, you

00:44:14.120 know, because you wanted somebody who's, I mean, you know, there's another show that

00:44:17.740 they wanted to see me for, for Broadway replacement, the musical. And they, and the

00:44:22.060 conversation as was relayed to me by my manager literally was, we should have a black guy playing

00:44:28.180 this role. So the consideration isn't, Oh, this there, here's someone who could bring

00:44:33.340 something dynamic and interesting and fresh to this romantic lead. Uh, no, it's time for

00:44:40.680 a black person to have this here, take this darkie. You, you deserve this. Here's a pat, 1.00

00:44:46.040 here's a pat on the head. And that's how it feels. So it's, it's this very weird thing

00:44:50.260 where it's like, I have the skillset and the craft and the chops to do these things you're

00:44:53.900 asking me to do. But I feel like in way, I feel like in many ways, I'm only being asked

00:44:59.520 to do, to do these things so that white progressives can feel better about themselves.

00:45:05.700 And that's, it's really condescending as you might imagine.

00:45:09.980 Yeah, I can certainly get that and why it'd be utterly infuriating. The one aspect of this

00:45:16.260 whole argument, why I have a, why I have sympathy with the progressives is when they talk about

00:45:21.560 stories coming from, you know, different people, different voices, whether, you know, it's,

00:45:26.440 you know, from a female writer, black writer, trans writer, whatever it may be stories that

00:45:31.520 we haven't heard before, because I think having like, for instance, uh, a black, a black mermaid 0.89

00:45:38.020 in the little mermaid is tokenistic and patronizing, but having a different voice with a different

00:45:43.800 point of view, telling a different story, I think there's definitely merit in that and

00:45:47.400 possibly something we haven't seen enough of. What do you think?

00:45:51.140 I mean, I feel the exact same way, you know, and, and that's why, you know, I'm like, you

00:45:55.800 don't need to preach to people. Um, I think that, uh, you know, again, I go back to films

00:46:02.980 like Pariah or Gun Hill Road, or there was a more recent one by a filmmaker named Greta Gerwig

00:46:06.840 called Lady Bird, um, which as I was watching it, I realized I'd never seen a coming of age story

00:46:13.040 told from a woman's perspective. And I, you know, and it was so refreshing and enlightening for me to,

00:46:20.340 to see things from that perspective. And, and I, and my attitude is if the storytelling is good

00:46:25.300 and the storytelling works, um, you know, please, like we're always looking for something new and

00:46:31.180 interesting. And we just, we, I, I, it's saddening to me that people feel that they're so hated and

00:46:39.040 they're, you know, especially now in an age where, I mean, you can go to YouTube and you can watch

00:46:44.680 videos that have millions of views of, of, of God, of a guy who trains mongooses and dogs to catch rats.

00:46:50.760 And you can watch that for hours. You know, like we, if, if it's interesting and compelling to us,

00:46:56.460 we like, we will watch it. And you, I, I just feel as though you maybe can't expect to reach

00:47:07.060 a huge audience if you're going for more niche topics, but I don't think there's,

00:47:12.780 I also don't think there's very many people who are going to, who are actively saying, well,

00:47:16.600 I don't want to hear trans voices. I don't want to hear this. I don't want to hear that. And I mean, 1.00

00:47:20.500 I think, I think people, even if they think it's weird and that is something that you have to kind

00:47:25.500 of, kind of deal with, uh, you know, people want to be entertained. They want to be shown something

00:47:31.180 new. And I think if we do that from that perspective, and again, rooted in something that is,

00:47:36.100 that is, that is recognizable to us as human truth, then you'll, you'll get a lot further than,

00:47:41.100 than not. I think, I don't know if that really answers your, your, your question, but that's

00:47:45.780 just what I think off the top of my head. Yeah. It's an interesting point. And there's something

00:47:49.980 you mentioned right at the top, which I'd like to get into in the sort of last quarter and hour that

00:47:55.100 we have together, which is you referenced a cultural death and a cultural decline. And this

00:48:00.400 is something that I've been thinking a lot about, uh, over the last couple of years and sensing it.

00:48:06.640 I, it's a feeling more than, you know, I'm sort of becoming very woke as I talk about it because

00:48:11.340 I'm, it's all about how I experience things, but that I'm not like, I haven't been to the cinema for

00:48:18.820 years now. I, I used to have a card that allowed me to watch as many, as many movies as I could in a

00:48:26.020 month because that's how much I love great cinema. I haven't been to a movie theater, as you guys would

00:48:32.060 say for years, because every time I look at the trailers or whatever, I'm not seeing anything

00:48:36.180 that interesting. You know, it's very, very rare for me to see something that's been made in the

00:48:40.760 last few years that I really like. And everything I look at, whether it's literature, whether it's

00:48:46.100 comedy, it, there is a decline happening. I think it's very difficult to argue that there isn't,

00:48:51.260 there's still great stuff coming out, but it's increasingly more rare. What, what do you think

00:48:56.680 that is about? If, if you agree with me that it's happening? I mean, it's a very, it's a very

00:49:06.920 difficult thing to, to kind of break down, but I do agree that there is, I mean, even when I go back

00:49:13.280 to Marvel, you know, it, I, I'm someone who really, really enjoys these movies, but I also realize that

00:49:20.200 that these are adaptations of stories that are decades old in many cases. Um, when I listen to

00:49:26.880 sorry, before you continue, there was that graph recently, wasn't there where like literally like

00:49:31.420 70% of the movies that have been made in the last five years, either remakes or sequels.

00:49:37.480 Yeah. I mean, you know, the creation of new storylines is just so limited.

00:49:42.060 Yeah. And, and I wonder if part of it, I wonder if part of it is again, this ideological homogeneity

00:49:49.500 within, uh, within the major sectors of, of the industry that, that is, that is preventing fresh

00:49:55.780 ideas from bubbling up to the surface. I think maybe that's part of it. Um, I think part of it

00:50:02.620 also is the advancement in technology in a weird way. Like it is amazing to see Thanos on screen and

00:50:09.440 you can see, you know, if you look closely, like stubble on his hair and on his, and on his chin from

00:50:14.300 when he hasn't, you know, shaved in a couple of days. And it's such a great detail. And, and the CGI

00:50:19.180 work is so amazing, but at the same time I can go back and watch the empire strikes back and the,

00:50:25.820 the practical effects in these films, I think is something that helps draw you in more. And so,

00:50:31.280 and I see this with music as well. It's so highly digitized now. It's so, it's so heavily produced

00:50:36.420 and it's so electronic that it's, it's sounding less and less like a human being. Um, if I look at

00:50:41.960 comic book art, you know, it's so much of it is digitized and you, you can't see the scritch marks

00:50:46.940 or the brush strokes or whatever that, that you might see on an oil painting or something like

00:50:50.540 that. So I wonder if part of it is technology, is technology advancing. Uh, so to the point where

00:50:57.440 we are, uh, we're disconnect, we're sort of disconnecting from, from what it means to be

00:51:05.220 human in a way or, or, or, or sent or sentience maybe. I mean, uh, John McWhorter put out a piece

00:51:10.120 in the Atlantic where it's oddly enough, I thought the most salient part of the, of the essay was,

00:51:17.040 was what he spent the least amount of time on, which is the, the alienation of modern life.

00:51:21.820 You know, as, as we become more, uh, connected, we also become more distant in a weird way.

00:51:28.720 You know, when I was a kid, you played, you know, uh, Nintendo or Famicom or whatever, uh,

00:51:33.680 it might be. And, you know, you went over to your buddy's house, you, you played Mega Man or

00:51:38.280 Double Dragon or whatever. And then you got bored and you went outside and you skinned your knees

00:51:41.560 and got dirty. Now you can play with your friends over the internet and you don't really have to

00:51:45.820 meet up anywhere. There's so many forms of entertainment where we can just be, you know,

00:51:49.320 in our phones and not really connecting with each other. Um, I think it goes back into what we're

00:51:54.660 saying about, uh, about archetypes and the sort of new orthodoxy where, you know, it's all about

00:52:00.480 being harmless and all about treating others, uh, with kindness, which entails, you know, on one hand,

00:52:07.080 it's great for civilization and social order, but at the same time, you know, it might, maybe it goes

00:52:13.500 too far and that we are tamping down things about ourselves. I mean, you know, we, the, the sex in

00:52:18.740 ourselves, the, the danger, the violence, um, it was, we're so dedicated to being good that we're

00:52:25.040 forgetting what's, what's interesting maybe. And on top of that, I think culturally there's

00:52:32.300 this shift that is, you know, I'm going to bring up the, the, the M word, almost, almost said the N 0.86

00:52:41.920 word. That's, that's, that's not the right thing. Well, well, well, well, nihilism, that, that is an

00:52:46.980 N word that I feel like, um, is applicable to this sense. And there's a great, I mean, and I, I wish I

00:52:52.880 were, I were more articulate about this. I mean, there's so many things that I like to think about,

00:52:56.140 but, uh, I, I, I don't know if we, maybe we're so comfortable that we're so, that we are, that we

00:53:06.080 in a weird way are removed from what it means to actually live. And, and I, and this also kind of,

00:53:12.040 it, it, it folds into the, the response to COVID for me in a lot of ways as well. You know, how can

00:53:17.560 people be so, how can people be so callous about throwing away first dates or, or, or hanging out with

00:53:25.460 your buds or, you know, playing with your kids in a park, you know, how these, these things that

00:53:31.660 make it valuable to be alive while we're, while we're here shuffling our, our, you know, couple

00:53:37.240 of hours on, on life stage. Um, there, there, there, there seems to be a disconnect between what

00:53:44.000 really makes us alive and vital and, and, and preserving what that is. And maybe part of it is

00:53:50.060 because we're so dedicated now to breaking all these cultural norms that we're forgetting, uh, what

00:53:54.840 these norms are rooted in in the first place. I mean, I really don't know. I wish I had a better

00:53:57.820 answer for that, but I do feel it. And I, I, I sense that a lot of other people feel it as well.

00:54:01.920 They say, we don't, they say, we don't, they either say, we don't want these reboots or they're

00:54:05.460 saying, I don't, you know, I don't watch movies anymore. I don't, I don't watch TV. I mean, I'm in

00:54:10.260 New York city. I have friends in, you know, these hit shows. I don't even go to see shows anymore

00:54:15.060 because I feel like they're just, I felt like they were making shows for themselves to please their

00:54:19.600 audience. But then they turn around and say, well, why can't we get more subscriptions? Why can't we get more

00:54:22.900 people coming to see our shows? Um, you know, I, I, I just, I don't, I don't know. I'm not making a

00:54:28.780 clear point, but, but I feel like we all feel it. I mean, I, I, I'm, I'm with you, Constantine. It's

00:54:33.760 just, there's something that, that, that is amiss and it makes it difficult to, uh, to be optimistic

00:54:40.780 about, about the future sometimes to be quite honest. Well, listen, you've been very articulate

00:54:45.720 actually. And I didn't want to interrupt you by reassuring you that you're articulate. Cause that

00:54:50.840 would definitely be racist telling black man that he is articulate. But, but listen, what I wanted

00:54:55.400 to ask you before we get to our last question is, first of all, I want to thank you for coming on

00:54:59.640 the show. And I want to say that, you know, I think it's so important for people like you to,

00:55:03.920 to think about these things and to speak about these things. And I hope that you get into,

00:55:09.720 in addition to the acting, which I hope you get lots more of, uh, you get into talking about stuff

00:55:15.000 as well. Um, you're looking very skeptical about the possibility of you doing more acting,

00:55:19.680 but I do hope it happens. Yeah. It's, I don't know at this point, you know, I, every, every

00:55:24.840 time I hit the tweet button, it, I do so with a bit of, I live with like this chronic low grade

00:55:29.840 paranoia and anxiety, uh, you know, and I just, and I shouldn't, I feel like I shouldn't have to

00:55:34.920 feel that way because again, I'm not out there saying that, uh, you know, I mean, I'm not out

00:55:40.480 there saying extreme things. I'm just, you know, saying, saying what I think. And, but, you know,

00:55:45.820 I tweeted out the other day that I am moving into content creation. I have to get, you know,

00:55:49.860 all my gear set up and everything and move into this new realm. I, you know, I, I, I don't think

00:55:53.880 there's enough performers who take advantage of these kinds of technologies, uh, as it is, but,

00:55:58.840 you know, but it's also difficult. I just, as much as I try, I just, I can't shut up about this

00:56:03.620 stuff. It's really important to me. And, um, I don't, I don't know why I just don't know why,

00:56:09.760 but I can't stop talking about these things. I, I see, I see this stuff and, um, I just, I just

00:56:16.100 want to, I just want to talk about it. And, um, and it's, it's gratifying in a way because I have

00:56:20.660 artists who reach out to me privately now who are saying, you know, thank you. And people who are in

00:56:25.320 LA, people who are in New York, um, they say, thank you, but they say, you know, but I can't speak up

00:56:31.400 right now. And, you know, and I, I sort of understand how people feel now when they say, when they say

00:56:38.860 that they feel that they have a little less tolerance now for people who are, who are afraid

00:56:42.300 to say anything, because at a certain point, you're like, look, I understand you're afraid,

00:56:47.840 but we, what's worse, you know, you, you lose your career, your job, or, you know, I mean,

00:56:54.080 you can find another one or that you keep allowing this to continue. And, and there's long-term damage

00:56:59.220 that we're not seeing right now, but that, but that is, but that's accruing. Um, you know, I just, I,

00:57:04.880 I don't know what, what's driving me to be honest, but there's just something

00:57:08.680 in me that, that doesn't, that just can't stay silent, uh, especially during times like

00:57:12.760 this. That's why I'm having me. No, but that's why we wanted to have you on the show, because

00:57:19.380 I think when people, uh, as articulate and who think as carefully about these things as

00:57:25.660 you do want to speak, that has to be encouraged and it has to be supported. So I thoroughly

00:57:30.140 recommend everyone to go follow you on Twitter so that whenever you start, whatever it is that

00:57:34.840 you start, uh, the, the people can, can follow that and engage with it. Cause you know, it's

00:57:39.640 been a brilliant interview. The question I really wanted to ask before we get to our last question

00:57:43.340 is, uh, is there anything you wanted to add? Because I have a sense that you might, you

00:57:48.300 might have something to add to this conversation of your own. Uh, well, in, in, in what capacity?

00:57:55.820 I mean, I don't know. I just have a feeling that you might, you might have something to say.

00:57:59.940 Um, well, follow me on Twitter at Clifton A. Duncan, um, or on Instagram at CliftonDuncan

00:58:07.340 lie online. Um, I, but I think that we are, there's more of us out there than, than we know.

00:58:20.320 And I think that people who are afraid should take heart and, and be courageous and say, you

00:58:27.880 know, I'm not taking this anymore and don't allow yourself to be, to be bullied. And, you

00:58:33.340 know, I'm, I'm somebody who I don't really view myself as this huge, you know, courageous

00:58:37.420 person. I have people who are, who are calling me that, uh, or I had someone on Twitter say,

00:58:42.220 you know, you're, you're one of my favorite thinkers right now. And I'm like, if you're

00:58:44.780 relying on some, you know, no name actor to be a great thinker, then we have serious problems

00:58:50.480 right now. And, um, well, you're not wrong. We do have serious problems right now.

00:58:55.800 Well, well, we do. And I have a really hard time watching, um, watching what I feel is the,

00:59:06.680 the destruction of just everything that makes being human, human, you know, if everything

00:59:15.180 that we're in a strange time now where people are, are, are, are completely incapable, it

00:59:22.360 seems of looking at problems from a wide perspective or taking the long view of things.

00:59:28.100 And I, I try to think of how, how, what, what I can contribute and, and, and where I fit into

00:59:34.240 all of this. And I think as an actor and as an artist, you know, and frankly, I mean, I

00:59:38.220 have a diverse, my friends are actually diverse in terms of their opinions. So I know where I

00:59:42.420 sit and I, you know, I have friends who lean more to the right of me who, who, uh, make

00:59:47.160 fun of me for being a bleeding heart. And, and I think that my bleeding heart and my openness

00:59:53.940 is one of the reasons I feel like, like I'm a more liberal minded person, but it it's, it's

00:59:59.980 also why I have sympathy, for instance, for people who, who voted for Donald Trump and, you

01:00:05.480 know, people, I mean, people, people lost marriages. They've disowned family members.

01:00:12.420 They've cut off lifelong relationships. And the same thing is happening with COVID. I

01:00:17.120 was talking to a friend yesterday who's in California right now. And if you're in New

01:00:20.260 York or, or if you're in California, you have no idea how much more close to normal life

01:00:25.100 is in places like Atlanta, where I am right now. And there is this divorce from, I'm just

01:00:33.720 really shocked to see the number of people who said, yeah, we don't need to socialize for

01:00:37.700 a year. It's fine. We don't have to be human. We don't, you're, you're depressed. You know,

01:00:41.500 you're, you're, you're beating your wife and your kids. Uh, you know, you, you have, you 0.89

01:00:44.980 have alcoholism, whatever you're dealing with that, whatever, but we have to stay safe by

01:00:50.580 killing other people in other ways, you know, and, uh, the, I go back to curiosity and empathy,

01:00:58.940 um, as a cornerstones of, of acting, but also I think we need to return to those sorts of

01:01:04.240 things just as human beings and as society, we need to have more curiosity about, uh, about

01:01:09.160 the other people. And, and, and it's, it's, it's astounding to me because when I, I talk

01:01:12.760 to people and, uh, you know, I mentioned someone like Thomas Sowell and, you know, they, they

01:01:16.840 shut down, they say, I'm not going to even engage with this. I'm like, well, you really

01:01:21.220 might want to read what he has to say because it might make you think differently. And it's

01:01:25.560 so exciting to, you know, see people like Jordan Peterson, who's inspired me to go on this

01:01:30.700 intellectual journey. I feel like I'm playing catch up in so many ways. I'm reading

01:01:33.600 these Russian authors. I'm reading Jung. I'm reading Nietzsche now. I'm, I'm, I'm, you know,

01:01:38.460 or the conservative, um, commentator, Victor Davis Hanson, who's a classicist who now has

01:01:43.000 me reading Homer and going back and doing all the things that I should have done, uh, in

01:01:47.300 my, uh, in my public education right now. And it's exciting to me. And there's so many things

01:01:53.560 flooding through my mind and I can contribute all of these things to the work that I do and

01:01:57.620 what I create, but there's an active effort to shut out all of these things. And I'm like,

01:02:02.480 how can you do that? Like my life is so much more rich and exciting now. And there's so much

01:02:06.240 more interesting people in it. Um, just because I'm on this, this journeys, but I would never be

01:02:12.120 on this journey if I wasn't a more curious person. And if I didn't have empathy or try to have some

01:02:16.580 kind of empathy or put myself in the shoes of the other person, which is, which is what I'm paid to do

01:02:20.220 essentially. And, um, you know, it's just, there's a, there's a death, there's a lack of curiosity and a lack

01:02:26.900 of this thirst and hunger for ideas by people who are telling me that I'm ignorant and uninformed, that I,

01:02:33.680 that I should be educated. You know, it's like, I don't know if you're the dumbest smart people or the 0.99

01:02:37.580 smartest dumb people, but I'm sorry, I'm sort of tired of dealing with you. And, and the irony is that once you 0.99

01:02:43.000 begin to read all these things, and once you begin to explore these ideas, you, you become humbled by 0.98

01:02:47.800 how much you just don't fucking know. And I remember when I was more of a progressive minded 0.97

01:02:54.220 person and I, and, and, you know, like prime example, Barack Obama was given the Nobel Peace

01:02:59.760 Prize, which he obviously earned and made, and made good on, um, subsequently. And, you know,

01:03:06.020 there's a lot of people at weddings in Pakistan that might not agree.

01:03:10.460 Yeah. Yeah. You mean all the, all the militants, uh, and, and, and their, and their bridal gowns,

01:03:16.380 but, uh, you know, but I, you know, this person had the audacity to point out to me on Facebook,

01:03:21.900 no less that, um, that Barack Obama had done absolutely nothing to earn his Nobel prize. And it,

01:03:28.020 and it was just like the NPC meme. I'm sitting there and I, I read it, I processed it. It was loading

01:03:33.680 for a little bit. And then I was like, you're a hater. Ha ha ha. You're a hater. Slam my laptop

01:03:39.800 shut. There is no attempt whatsoever to engage with the truth of what this person just said,

01:03:44.880 the simple truth of what this person just said. And that's what we're seeing. I feel like at large,

01:03:48.740 um, at least in this sect of society, it's this refusal to engage because I'm so sure that where

01:03:54.120 I am is unimpeachable that, uh, you know, you can't even shout. I just have to be clever and funny

01:04:00.820 and snarky and, and cool, but I stay stupid as a result. And I feel like there's, there's, 0.97

01:04:07.820 you know, just mass stupidity going on, but it's, it's masquerading as intelligence and moral 1.00

01:04:13.180 and moral superiority. That's, that's, that's, I could rant for hours, obviously about all kinds 1.00

01:04:18.800 of things, you know, but it's, I just see it and I just can't, and I, and I, I observe it and I just

01:04:23.000 can't shut up about it. And I feel like more people need to need to talk about it and call it out.

01:04:28.480 A man and a woman.

01:04:33.660 Yes, yes, absolutely.

01:04:35.500 But Clifton, thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, it's been an absolute pleasure. Um, you,

01:04:40.960 you, if people wanted to follow you, you've already said that, uh, earlier on, but just repeat again,

01:04:46.480 very, very quickly.

01:04:47.480 Yes. I am on Twitter at Clifton A. Duncan. And I'm also on Instagram at Clifton Duncan online. I also

01:04:53.940 have a YouTube channel, uh, called Clifton Duncan, which I'll be uploading content to regularly. I

01:04:58.980 started uploading Shakespearean science and then my computer died. Uh, so I wasn't able to do it

01:05:03.160 anymore, but, uh, you know, I'm going to finish that project and also begin to upload more

01:05:07.260 entertainment focused, um, uh, work as well. Uh, you know, I, that, I feel like that could be my

01:05:14.900 unique contribution to the content creation alternative sphere.

01:05:18.700 You should definitely go for it. I'm going to go and subscribe to YouTube channel straight away.

01:05:23.640 And I recommend everybody else does as well. Cause as I said, there's a lot of great things to come

01:05:27.780 out of you. I have no doubt. Uh, but we've got one more question for you, which is always the

01:05:32.360 one we always finish on, which is what is the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should

01:05:36.100 be the one thing we're not talking about, but we, but we really should be such a, an easy and

01:05:42.700 simple question. I think one thing that we're not talking about that we really should be talking

01:05:48.840 about is courage. How far are we willing to allow ourselves to be pushed into the realm of things

01:05:57.420 that we know are not true? How do we develop the ability to measure our compassion with practicality?

01:06:11.140 Um, I mean, I, how, how, how, ah, I just, I, I, I want to answer this question and be like really

01:06:18.940 brilliant and articulate, but there's so many things, um, uh, to it. I guess I just have to go back to

01:06:26.900 what it means to be a human being and to be alive, you know, and my, my job as an actor is to,

01:06:35.340 is to be a conduit of all of those things. And I, I, I, I think the more technologically advanced

01:06:43.680 that we become, and especially the more atomized that we become, it becomes really incumbent upon

01:06:48.780 us to reach out to people. I mean, I've been so heartened by being down here in Atlanta when you're

01:06:53.400 outside of this progressive bubble in, in a, in a blue city like New York, you know, you're talking

01:06:58.100 to your, your, your Lyft driver, your Uber driver, you're talking to the, to the, the clerk at the,

01:07:02.780 the Rite Aid or the CVS. And you realize that people, people are people and they have issues

01:07:09.660 and they have problems. They want to fall in love. They get angry. They get jealous. They,

01:07:14.060 they go through despair. And these are the things that are important. These are the things that we

01:07:18.340 should be focusing on and improving in our lives. And the less time that we spend watching,

01:07:23.480 watching the quote unquote news, the less time we spend shitting all over each other on social media. 0.53

01:07:27.940 And the more that we reconnect to each other, I mean, it's going to sound like a soppy

01:07:32.620 can't we all just get along kind of message. And again, this is the bleeding heart in me,

01:07:36.880 but I feel like now more than ever, there are so many forces that are trying to, to, to pull us

01:07:42.140 apart and we need to just come together more. You know, I, I cautioned my friend the other day

01:07:47.160 or yesterday. I said, you know, just, I, I, I have a problem with people who place responsibility

01:07:53.260 on others for the spread of an infectious disease that, I mean, you can't really control

01:07:57.360 the path of a virus. It's just yet another tool people are using to place me in the good camp and

01:08:03.480 you and the other camp. And, um, I think people need to ask themselves who benefits from all this

01:08:08.120 division because it's not us. It's definitely not us. And, um, so if, if that, if that were the,

01:08:14.840 the, uh, a bit of a meandering response, but if that were the question, I'd say, you know,

01:08:19.540 people need to be talking more about what makes us human and what, and what, and what unites us

01:08:23.420 and binds us as people. And, um, not just those who are alive today, but from expanses of time,

01:08:29.620 one of the great things about reading all these old plays and all this old literature is you find

01:08:32.840 that even though technologies change, customs change, civilizations change, what motivates people

01:08:38.540 has been the same thing for thousands of years. We were a part of this rich human chain and this rich

01:08:43.740 human experience. And, you know, we need to be very careful about, um, preserving that and we don't

01:08:50.320 want to squander it over bullshit. It's a really, really lovely way to finish the interview. Thank 0.87

01:08:57.800 you so much for coming on question. Um, we really, really do appreciate it. It was a brilliant

01:09:02.120 interview guys. If you've enjoyed the show, thank you so much. All our interviews and live streams

01:09:06.820 go out 7.00 PM UK time, six days a week. And we will see you very soon. Make sure you go and

01:09:13.740 subscribe to Clifton's YouTube channel and we'll see you very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

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TRIGGERnometry - February 24, 2021

＂Hollywood Must Stop Lecturing Ordinary People＂ - Clifton Duncan

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