TRIGGERnometry - How the Internet Ruins Young People - Freya India

00:00:01.000 Nearly half of Gen Z adults wish social media was never invented,

00:00:05.000 which you don't really get with any other invention.

00:00:09.000 Other women were relentlessly sold products and procedures, 1.00

00:00:12.000 but we are the product.

00:00:14.000 But this is happening from maybe age 12.

00:00:17.000 Companies like Facebook will even track

00:00:20.000 if a user uses a word like worthless or insecure

00:00:24.000 and then send them an ad.

00:00:26.000 When I was reading the book, I was thinking,

00:00:29.000 the pandemic must have a significant part to play in all this.

00:00:32.000 It must do.

00:00:33.000 Teenagers were already social distancing before the pandemic.

00:00:36.000 So you have online communities, you have online porn,

00:00:40.000 you have online therapy, you have online lectures,

00:00:43.000 online delivery services.

00:00:45.000 You just don't have to look a human in the eye at all.

00:00:56.000 When you let aero truffle bubbles melt,

00:01:04.000 everything takes on a creamy, delicious, chocolatey glow.

00:01:08.000 Like that pile of laundry.

00:01:09.000 You didn't forget to fold it.

00:01:11.000 No, it's a new trend.

00:01:12.000 Wrinkled chic.

00:01:14.000 Feel the aero bubbles melt.

00:01:15.000 It's mind bubbling.

00:01:18.000 Freya India, welcome back to Trigonology. 0.98

00:01:20.000 Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:21.000 It's great to be back.

00:01:22.000 Oh, it's great to have you.

00:01:23.000 Listen, when we first interviewed you,

00:01:25.000 it was very clear that you were a very talented writer,

00:01:27.000 but you were still, I think, working part-time in a cafe.

00:01:30.000 And since that time, your sub stacks exploded.

00:01:33.000 You've written this great book, which I'm sure will be a big success.

00:01:36.000 You're on all the big shows now.

00:01:38.000 And I think it's because the message that you are delivering

00:01:41.000 and the things that you're talking about

00:01:43.000 is actually something that the entire world is now concerned about.

00:01:46.000 You know, what have you made of the journey you've had so far,

00:01:50.000 if nothing else?

00:01:51.000 Yeah, I mean, I think when you asked me to come on,

00:01:53.000 I was literally cleaning toilets in the cafe.

00:01:56.000 So it's very meaningful to be back.

00:01:58.000 I think that Jonathan Haidt obviously has accelerated this conversation

00:02:03.000 and he's given the foundation for a lot of the stats in the book.

00:02:06.000 But I kind of think of it, when I first came on,

00:02:09.000 I was talking about the first part of a story,

00:02:12.000 which was a generation falling apart.

00:02:14.000 And that's what psychologists like Jonathan Haidt, Gene Twenge have all been talking about,

00:02:19.000 which is the rise in anxiety, depression, self-harm, suicide among Gen Z.

00:02:25.000 But the book is really the second part of the story, which is a generation being remade.

00:02:31.000 So what we were turned into.

00:02:33.000 And I actually think that young women have turned from people into products. 0.99

00:02:38.000 And that the reason we're unhappy is because we're no longer human,

00:02:42.000 or at least treating ourselves as human.

00:02:44.000 Do you think that part of it is we've just got more powerful technology now?

00:02:52.000 Like women have always been treated as a product by the people who could sell them stuff. 1.00

00:02:57.000 Yeah.

00:02:58.000 Right?

00:02:59.000 And profit from their, from their insecurities,

00:03:01.000 from their natural tendencies to feel certain ways about their looks and stuff like that.

00:03:05.000 Yeah.

00:03:06.000 And now we're just in a place where the technology is so much more powerful.

00:03:11.000 Yeah.

00:03:12.000 So the book is all age-old anxieties that every generation of women has felt.

00:03:17.000 So it's like how you look, how you feel, your relationships, everything.

00:03:21.000 But it's all been magnified now until it's unmanageable.

00:03:26.000 And then it's more sinister than that.

00:03:27.000 It's actually been exploited by all of these industries and companies.

00:03:32.000 And so, yeah, I think other generations of women would say they've been objectified or treated like a product. 1.00

00:03:39.000 But I think this is like the core experience of girls today is commodification.

00:03:45.000 So every experience of growing up, whether it's, you know, dealing with your developing body or going on your first date, it's all commodified and intruded upon by the market.

00:03:57.000 Tell us more about that.

00:03:58.000 Like, what does that mean, commodified?

00:04:00.000 Well, so you're constantly marketing and selling yourself.

00:04:03.000 So all through adolescence, you're performing obsessively analyzing your metrics and then your self-worth is determined by your ratings and reviews online.

00:04:14.000 But this is happening from maybe age 12.

00:04:18.000 Let's say you're on Instagram at age 12.

00:04:20.000 Then your entire experience of growing up is packaging yourself up for Instagram, you know, displaying yourself on a dating app like a product.

00:04:29.000 Or, and then in your twenties, turning yourself into a personal brand that has to be monitored and managed all the time.

00:04:36.000 And so I think the difference today is other women were relentlessly sold products and procedures, but we are the product.

00:04:46.000 It's very interesting you say that because when I was reading the book, I remembered this scene in Bowling for Columbine, the documentary by Michael Moore, where they interviewed Marilyn Manson.

00:04:57.000 And he was going, our entire consumer culture is based on fear.

00:05:02.000 You've got pimply skin. 0.96

00:05:04.000 No girls are going to want to date you. 1.00

00:05:06.000 Buy this product.

00:05:07.000 You've got greasy hair.

00:05:08.000 You're going to need this shampoo.

00:05:10.000 And that sprung into my mind when reading about this.

00:05:12.000 This is entirely a fear-based culture, isn't it?

00:05:15.000 You're watching television.

00:05:17.000 You're watching the news.

00:05:18.000 You're being pumped full of fear.

00:05:20.000 There's floods.

00:05:21.000 There's AIDS.

00:05:22.000 There's murder.

00:05:23.000 Cut to commercial.

00:05:24.000 Buy the Acura.

00:05:26.000 Buy the Colgate.

00:05:27.000 If you have bad breath, they're not going to talk to you. 1.00

00:05:29.000 If you've got pimples, the girl's not going to fuck you. 1.00

00:05:32.000 And it's just this, it's a campaign of fear and consumption. 1.00

00:05:36.000 And that's what I think that it's all based on is the whole idea that keep everyone afraid and they'll consume.

00:05:43.000 Yeah, it's, and also if you are online, that's what the algorithms pick up on very quickly is fear and insecurity and vulnerability.

00:05:53.000 So companies like Facebook will even track if, you know, a user uses a word like worthless or insecure and then send them an ad.

00:06:02.000 If a girl deletes a selfie, Facebook will send her an advert for a beauty product.

00:06:08.000 And this is the issue with social media is it will pick up on any small insecurity or vulnerability you have immediately and then serve you more of it.

00:06:18.000 And this is the problem, particularly with adolescent girls, is that it's such a vulnerable time that you don't really have the same amount of agency or discernment to deal with it.

00:06:29.000 It's just, you will feel something, you'll look at it longer and then it will get out of control very quickly.

00:06:34.000 Because there's a lot of conservatives who will be like, oh, well, you know, you need to take responsibility, etc, etc.

00:06:40.000 And when I hear them, I go, number one, you're male. Number two, you're in your 50s.

00:06:46.000 That's very different from being a 13 year old girl who's going through puberty and suffering quite a lot of distress as a result of that.

00:06:57.000 Yeah. I mean, how does a 12 year old girl compete against billion dollar industries who are working on making you addicted all the time and have all of the tools and technology to do it and AI it now?

00:07:09.000 I think it's just, Jonathan Haidt talks about it, it's just such a vulnerable age that basically, if you're a parent, if you can keep your child off before 16, it's before that when it's really dangerous.

00:07:24.000 Because also that's when your self-esteem is forming. That's when your view of men and women is forming.

00:07:29.000 That's when a lot of your brain is developing and a lot of your worldview. And so if we can keep them off in that stage, I think it's critical.

00:07:36.000 And what makes you vulnerable at that age, particularly, you know, a lot of people will either not have experience being an early teen girl or just forget what it's like or whatever.

00:07:48.000 What makes young people and young girls especially so vulnerable?

00:07:52.000 I think you're acutely aware of your reputation.

00:07:56.000 So social media is all about your reputation and you being ranked and reviewed and publicly measured against other people.

00:08:05.000 So you're going through puberty and you're getting feedback on your developing body and your face and your life.

00:08:15.000 So you're getting your memories, you're marketing your memories and then getting feedback from that, just like a product.

00:08:22.000 And I think at that time is really when you develop your sense of self and your sense of self-worth.

00:08:28.000 And so I think if you're a particularly anxious girl who doesn't perform well on social media, it kind of sets how you view yourself going forward.

00:08:39.000 Because, you know, at such a vulnerable time, you're being told you're lesser than your friends or, and it's also being displayed to everybody all the time.

00:08:49.000 So I say in the book, a lot of these things were things that you can't take down or delete.

00:08:55.000 They're happening without your control. So I talk about Ask.fm. Do you know Ask.fm?

00:09:00.000 So this was like a big part of my childhood where you could ask and answer anonymous questions.

00:09:06.000 So it'd be people at your school asking questions like, who is the ugliest girl or rank who has the worst body. 0.99

00:09:14.000 And then your name can be put on that and there's nothing you can do to take it down.

00:09:18.000 And if you think about young girls, they ruminate way more than young boys.

00:09:23.000 This is, so if they're distressed, they go inwards.

00:09:27.000 And that can be anxiety or eating disorders or self-harm.

00:09:30.000 It's usually rumination.

00:09:32.000 And maybe in the past, someone says a comment at school and you ruminate over it.

00:09:37.000 But now you can go back to it. You can keep looking at it.

00:09:40.000 And I think this was the thing that really damaged my generation is that it's a public ranking of you and it's inescapable.

00:09:51.000 And also as well with the social media, because I remember when I started teaching, it was 2007 I started training, then 2008 when I was in schools properly.

00:10:01.000 And that's when Facebook became much more prevalent.

00:10:05.000 And obviously things are worse now with Instagram.

00:10:07.000 But one of the things we noticed with Facebook was bullying, especially between girls, skyrocketing.

00:10:14.000 Yeah. Well, I think girls, we use indirect forms of aggression, which will be reputation destruction. 1.00

00:10:23.000 And this is a theme throughout the book is that, you know, we're not only turning into products, but we're looking at each other like we're products as well.

00:10:31.000 Treating other people like objects, ranking and reviewing them.

00:10:35.000 And you lose your sense, not only that you're fully human, that other people are fully human as well.

00:10:41.000 And so you're judging, you're growing up judging other young girls on how many likes they get, how many followers they have.

00:10:48.000 And you can go after their reputation by, say, posting an unflattering photo of them on Facebook that they can't take down.

00:10:56.000 Or you can go after their reputation by, you know, attacking them because they haven't posted the Black Lives Matter square and they have offensive opinions.

00:11:06.000 And it's all public. And so I think the reputation destruction that used to happen on playgrounds is now happening online and then getting recommended to other children by algorithms.

00:11:18.000 And because what people don't understand, and you'll know better than anyone, is young girls and young boys, particularly those who are pubescent, prepubescent, their brains aren't developed.

00:11:30.000 There have been a lot of studies shown that below the age of 14, boys in particular, they've got no ability to conceptualize consequences.

00:11:39.000 And you see that so often in schools where an 11-year-old boy pushes another one, the boy falls over, hurts himself, starts crying.

00:11:45.000 And the enraged teacher will say to the boy who pushed the other one, why did you do that?

00:11:49.000 And he will always do the same thing. He'll shrug his shoulders because he couldn't comprehend that.

00:11:55.000 And we know that they're developing. We know their brains aren't fully developed, yet we give them this technology.

00:12:00.000 And then we're shocked when it creates all this havoc.

00:12:03.000 Yeah, and I think it's quite cruel that we give them a technology that is for adults, essentially.

00:12:10.000 And they haven't formed their opinions yet. They haven't formed a sense of self-worth and who they are.

00:12:16.000 So when you're young, you're experimenting and you're figuring all of that out.

00:12:19.000 And then we give them a technology that never forgets anything.

00:12:23.000 And also on social media, you have to categorize yourself or it will categorize you for you.

00:12:31.000 But you have to list your features like a product. You have to list the things you're interested in.

00:12:36.000 And you have girls doing that, say, 12, 13, and then they change a lot.

00:12:41.000 And then it becomes really difficult to change.

00:12:43.000 So let's say at 13, you're convinced you have a mental health problem.

00:12:48.000 And you go down the rabbit hole of all the mental health videos.

00:12:50.000 And you have an account that's all about your mental health issue.

00:12:53.000 You might not want that when you're 20, but you're already categorized.

00:12:58.000 And then I think this is also the cruelty of cancel culture and holding people to account for opinions they had at 12.

00:13:07.000 The statuses they posted. Because you're young and the whole point is that you make mistakes and you figure this out.

00:13:13.000 But we're having to market and brand ourselves from like age 12.

00:13:18.000 And then we're changing and we're having to then market that change.

00:13:22.000 And then people say to you, oh, you're different now.

00:13:24.000 Or we've got evidence that you were different, you know, five years ago.

00:13:28.000 It's so cruel that we're not giving children that freedom to figure out who they are.

00:13:33.000 You know what, I would be terrified to be a young person who had opinion, like who did what I do now, but at the age of 25.

00:13:42.000 Yeah.

00:13:43.000 I would be horrified.

00:13:45.000 Because you have no idea.

00:13:48.000 My entire worldview is so different to what it was when I was 25.

00:13:53.000 Yeah.

00:13:54.000 And when you're 25, like Frances said, when you're 25, you don't, as a man, especially, you don't think about consequences particularly.

00:14:00.000 You haven't thought everything through.

00:14:02.000 You're full of testosterone, whatever it is.

00:14:04.000 You're trying to make a mark in the world. 1.00

00:14:06.000 You're saying all this dumb shit that people are going to hold against you forever. 0.99

00:14:10.000 And most importantly, you then also probably feel like, like you said, you have to like, almost like you have to stand on this lie that's no longer true about you. 1.00

00:14:21.000 You said it, so like, okay, fine, fuck you all, I'm just going to stand here and I'm going to defend this thing that I said 10 years ago. 0.99

00:14:27.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:14:28.000 Because I have to now.

00:14:29.000 Yeah.

00:14:30.000 I often think of it as, you know, we are now, we've become entertainment.

00:14:36.000 So, a lot of people think my generation is wasting time watching mindless entertainment.

00:14:41.000 But a lot of people are actually turning themselves into entertainment.

00:14:44.000 Mm-hmm.

00:14:45.000 And then what happens is, if you change your opinion, it's out of character.

00:14:48.000 And you're now presenting your life like a series of episodes, and everything is kind of for other people to consume.

00:14:57.000 And so, you have to stay coherent.

00:15:00.000 And this is why I focus on...

00:15:02.000 You have to stay in character.

00:15:03.000 Yeah.

00:15:04.000 Literally.

00:15:05.000 In character.

00:15:06.000 And this is why I focus on things I've experienced in growing up as a girl.

00:15:09.000 Because I think, what can you be an expert on at 26?

00:15:14.000 I can't talk about, you know, the tax system or how I think the country should be around.

00:15:19.000 The one thing I can be an expert on is the feelings that I've had in going through this experience.

00:15:24.000 But yeah, I think there's also enormous pressure on young people to be successful very young, and to have things to show on social media.

00:15:33.000 So, for this book, I had to hide away for a long time to get it done.

00:15:37.000 I could not be tweeting and posting videos of myself because I did not have the time and the attention to do it.

00:15:44.000 But I think young people think now they have to constantly prove that they're doing something impressive and show that they exist.

00:15:52.000 So, they have to keep doing stuff.

00:15:54.000 And so, you're seeing people, like, putting more care and attention into their Twitter than maybe doing a longer project, like a book.

00:16:02.000 Because you have to hide away, to some extent.

00:16:05.000 And what are your, I mean, one of the big conversations that's been had in recent times is dating and sex lives of younger people, which is like they're not having as much sex as they used to.

00:16:16.000 Dating seems to be more of a challenge.

00:16:18.000 What are your thoughts on the impact of all of this on that aspect of life for young people?

00:16:23.000 Yeah, I think the main theme I sort of noticed in the book is risk aversion among young women in terms of dating and relationships.

00:16:31.000 And it's funny because I think a lot of the time we get told, we get told the problem is something that's not true anymore.

00:16:39.000 So, a lot of people think the problem is women being too dependent on men.

00:16:44.000 Whereas really, for my generation, the problem is women being very risk averse, scared of, and even having contempt for men.

00:16:52.000 But a lot of the dating advice is about how to stay independent and, you know, not lose yourself in a relationship.

00:16:58.000 And then the other dating advice we get is, you know, the pressure to settle down, how to deal with that pressure.

00:17:06.000 But people are asking, when are you having children and when are you getting married?

00:17:09.000 And I see that all the time, even though I've never experienced it.

00:17:13.000 In my experience, it's always been pressure to stay single.

00:17:17.000 And it's scrutiny if you want to settle down too young.

00:17:20.000 And so I think a lot of the dating advice hasn't caught up to our main issue, which is risk aversion.

00:17:27.000 So if you go on hashtag relationships on TikTok, it's all red flags, what to watch out for, signs that he's a narcissist, signs he's going to cheat on you.

00:17:39.000 And the sad part is, you have girls watching that who have not even kissed a boy yet, or held a boy's hand.

00:17:48.000 And they're being overwhelmed by the opinions of professionals and sometimes wounded adults telling them to be fearful and risk averse.

00:17:59.000 And it happens on both sides.

00:18:01.000 You have sort of the manosphere influencer guys saying, you know, don't ever be too vulnerable, be an alpha male.

00:18:08.000 And then you have, say, a therapy influencer saying, don't ever be vulnerable, be an independent woman, set boundaries.

00:18:16.000 And so I think it's for boys and girls.

00:18:19.000 They're having their view of relationships distorted by scrolling through the opinions of adults too young.

00:18:26.000 And, you know, there's a lot of good stuff on there as well.

00:18:29.000 There are people giving great advice, but I imagine, you know, a lot of the time that great advice doesn't just just doesn't go as viral as the bad advice.

00:18:39.000 Yeah.

00:18:40.000 Because it doesn't hit the same sweet spot of like combination of outrage and offensiveness and also like whatever else it might be.

00:18:47.000 Yeah, the incentives are completely wrong.

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00:21:18.000 Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything.

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00:21:46.000 The incentives are completely wrong.

00:21:48.000 So the incentive of a relationship influencer is to grab your attention immediately, which will be, you know, don't do this in your relationship or it will explode or five signs he's cheating on you right now.

00:22:03.000 And it's got to get an emotion like fear, anxiety.

00:22:06.000 But it's interesting because another place people often get advice is Reddit.

00:22:11.000 So online forums, they'll ask for relationship advice.

00:22:14.000 And there was this graph done of all of the relationship advice on Reddit for like the last decade.

00:22:21.000 The least popular answer that Reddit users gave was compromise.

00:22:26.000 The most popular is breakup, divorce.

00:22:29.000 So it's not only that the incentives are wrong for influencers.

00:22:33.000 It's that I think the internet attracts lonely and hurt people to gather together to kind of post their way through their pain.

00:22:43.000 And unfortunately, if you ask for someone's opinion, then they're not going to tell you to work it through.

00:22:50.000 They're going to give you their emotional argument.

00:22:53.000 And so I think really anywhere that you're getting relationship advice online is you should at least be very suspicious.

00:23:00.000 Scott Adams, not Scott Adams, sorry.

00:23:03.000 It was Scott Galloway, former guest on the show, made a great point on social media, which is the social media companies found something better to monetize than sex.

00:23:13.000 And that's rage.

00:23:14.000 Yeah.

00:23:15.000 And when you look at most social media, well, after I saw Scott's, that clip from Scott, and I looked through social media, I'm like, oh, this is just all rage.

00:23:24.000 I mean, there's female rage, there's male rage, there's young rage, there's old rage.

00:23:28.000 There's trans rage.

00:23:29.000 There's trans rage.

00:23:30.000 We don't want to exclude people.

00:23:31.000 Yeah.

00:23:32.000 There was even at one point a day of rage.

00:23:34.000 Yeah.

00:23:35.000 Was there?

00:23:36.000 Yeah.

00:23:37.000 Yeah.

00:23:38.000 That was against Jewish people. 0.99

00:23:39.000 Yeah.

00:23:40.000 Well, I think as well, to reiterate the point, when you're slightly older, you have context and you have a level of discernment to say this is mental.

00:23:50.000 And I think, you know, for my generation, I mean, I've got a phone at 11 and it wasn't as bad for me because I talk about the algorithms and how they were gradually introduced.

00:24:01.000 But now you're seeing all that rage about the world before you've even experienced the world.

00:24:06.000 So you have young people getting advice before they've even lived.

00:24:10.000 And it's so contradictory.

00:24:12.000 So if we talk about relationship advice, you can scroll through Twitter and say, always move in with someone before marriage.

00:24:19.000 And then the next tweet is, don't ever move in with someone before marriage.

00:24:22.000 You know, you have people like so passionate and sure that this is the way.

00:24:29.000 And I think the sad thing is, it's a lot of people thinking that you can protect yourself from vulnerability and the possibility of getting hurt.

00:24:38.000 And then you have a generation who has grown up in this sort of safetyism culture who have been infantilized and are maybe prone to risk aversion.

00:24:50.000 And then they're scrolling through people who are warning them all the time or raging about the state of the world.

00:24:56.000 And they have no life experience to put that in.

00:25:00.000 And then you add on top that a lot of these kids come from broken homes.

00:25:04.000 Yeah.

00:25:05.000 So they don't get maybe access to dad.

00:25:08.000 Or if they do, it's very infrequent.

00:25:10.000 And, you know, mum has to work because she needs to support the family. 0.63

00:25:14.000 And then dad needs to work as well.

00:25:16.000 So where are you going to go for this advice if you live in this ever more atomized world?

00:25:21.000 You're going to go to the internet.

00:25:22.000 Yeah.

00:25:23.000 Yeah.

00:25:24.000 And that's a big theme of the book is that we lost a lot of things.

00:25:28.000 And online we have substitutes and simulations for them.

00:25:32.000 But my generation don't realize that we're simulating something because we've forgotten what we had in the first place.

00:25:38.000 So something like Instagram they think is a community because they've never experienced a community or neighbors.

00:25:45.000 Or instead of going out with friends, they watch influencers.

00:25:49.000 Or instead of speaking to their parents about relationships, they scroll through relationship TikTok or go on relationship Reddit forums.

00:25:57.000 Forgetting that this is a bad replacement for something that did exist before.

00:26:02.000 And I think it actually helped to write the book because I realized how many things in my life were these sort of substitutes that had been sold to me for something that has broken down, whether it's community or family.

00:26:15.000 And even just adults giving advice.

00:26:19.000 I feel like for my generation, a lot of our parents thought it's not their place to give advice.

00:26:26.000 So it's just imposing their worldview if they do that.

00:26:31.000 And, you know, they thought, you know, that's the nice way to be is to be neutral and not tell young people right and wrong.

00:26:37.000 Then you have young people desperately searching through relationship TikTok and it's got hundreds of millions of views because they want some guidance and direction and to know what right and wrong is.

00:26:48.000 So I think a lot of these trends that are popular, it's helpful to think what are young people actually looking for and maybe what has been lost in the first place.

00:26:56.000 And it's as well, this idea of, and I've seen it so often with parents when I was teaching, they would be like, you know, we just want our kids to be free.

00:27:03.000 You know, I don't want them growing up in a restrictive, repressive environment.

00:27:07.000 And you're going there going, I think that's why the kid is literally climbing the walls as we speak, is that he's got too much freedom, if anything.

00:27:15.000 Yeah. And also, you can be nice and neutral, but the world is not neutral.

00:27:20.000 So if you step back, my argument is companies will step in.

00:27:24.000 So if you don't teach your daughter what she's worth, Instagram will.

00:27:29.000 If you don't teach her about relationships, then Pornhub will. 0.99

00:27:34.000 And so I think a lot of parents did it with good intentions, but they didn't realize that, you know, the world will impose its own values.

00:27:42.000 You know, progressive values that always change, sexual values that become more permissive.

00:27:47.000 There will always be arbiters of right and wrong.

00:27:49.000 And for a lot of young people, unfortunately, it's companies and influencers.

00:27:53.000 Well, you're so right about the gap being filled.

00:27:56.000 And it's interesting you say, you know, both parents and education, but both of you make this point, have sort of stepped back from their responsibility.

00:28:03.000 If you think about it, like as a parent, I can tell you my first thought is, I have to prepare this child for the world.

00:28:10.000 Yeah.

00:28:11.000 That means I have to, to the best of my ability, which is limited and my wife's ability, which is limited, give them an understanding of how the world actually works and how you can operate in that world with maximum happiness, effectiveness, whatever it is that I'm optimizing for, right?

00:28:28.000 Right.

00:28:29.000 That inevitably means giving guidance in a way that it's going to be received.

00:28:34.000 Yeah.

00:28:35.000 Right.

00:28:36.000 So there's a, there's a balance in the past.

00:28:37.000 People would, would push so hard on their kids.

00:28:39.000 There's a balance to be struck there, but this voluntary abandonment of parental and adult responsibility combined then with this super powerful technology just seems to have created a complete disaster.

00:28:53.000 Yeah.

00:28:54.000 I think we, we undermined any form of authority.

00:28:57.000 Um, so I think a lot of parents don't give guidance, but then I actually think not only companies have filled the gap, but they directly advertise, we will give you guidance.

00:29:07.000 And so I talk about therapy companies in the book, like BetterHelp Talkspace, who have gone now to advertising themselves like parents.

00:29:16.000 So not only do they say stuff like, we're so proud of you, we love you, like on their Instagram and their adverts, but they directly say, you know, we will guide you through all of the exam stresses, you know, dealing with your developing body, all of these things that parents used to give you advice and direction for.

00:29:34.000 We're now telling a generation that they need professional help and intervention for these things.

00:29:39.000 And it's, you can't help but think it's quite sinister when you look at the actual adverts for say BetterHelp where, uh, they have this series of adverts where the dad will say something like, oh, maybe you should get out and have a walk in the sun.

00:29:53.000 And the daughter will just be looking at the camera like what, and it will come up, that's unhelpful. 0.88

00:29:59.000 And they do it with friends as well.

00:30:00.000 Well, that's actually great advice.

00:30:02.000 Like going out for a walk is like, like solves 99% of your problems, basically.

00:30:07.000 Yeah, it's, it's horrifically offensive.

00:30:10.000 And then they have ones with friends where there's a talk space ad where a girl and a young guy are walking and she's like, oh, do you want to talk about your crush or how your maths test went?

00:30:21.000 And he's like, I don't want to talk about it.

00:30:23.000 I don't want to talk about it.

00:30:24.000 And she's like, why don't you text your therapist instead?

00:30:26.000 It's an advert for their unlimited messaging therapy where you text a therapist.

00:30:31.000 And so there's this really sinister thing happening where you have companies offering guidance and direction, but also basically saying your friends and family are unhelpful because they're not professionals.

00:30:44.000 There's no way they could help you with relationships because they don't know.

00:30:48.000 And so we kind of always encourage young people to be less close to their family, you know, to set boundaries, not burden them with their problems, but then get closer and closer to professionals.

00:31:01.000 It comes back to the point that France has made.

00:31:04.000 And I know that you focus very heavily on the corporate exploitation of all this stuff.

00:31:08.000 And I agree with you that companies will exploit all this stuff.

00:31:12.000 But I also think in a way, a lot of it is just filling a void that exists because of what society has become.

00:31:19.000 Like, I remember somebody who I don't need to name, who said a long time ago, I think it was like when Jordan Peterson was first breaking through.

00:31:27.000 And she was like, yeah, you know, I've never been interested in Jordan because I had a good dad.

00:31:30.000 And it was a dismissive, like, backhander to him, which I, you know, I like Jordan very much.

00:31:36.000 So I kind of initially, but then I realized in some ways she's saying something very true, which is a lot of societies is looking for like someone to tell them how to live their life, basically.

00:31:48.000 And when Jordan broke through, he broke through because nobody was doing that for generations.

00:31:53.000 And then, you know, unfortunately, I always go like you can chronicle the decline of civilization by the type of influence that fills that void.

00:32:01.440 So you went like from Jordan to Andrew Tate to God knows what the next one of that's going to be.

00:32:07.380 But ultimately, what for men that is, is somebody to tell them how to live their life and also how not to feel downtrodden by society that's become very rhetorically anti-male.

00:32:18.540 Yeah, I think this is why I try and talk with sympathy for my generation and younger, because I think we can lose all context where, and as you said at the beginning with conservatives kind of saying, oh, you know, you need personal agency and stuff.

00:32:33.400 I think you have to remember what my generation has never known.

00:32:37.700 So, for example, maybe we've never known kissing a boy before we've seen violent videos on Pornhub, or we've never known friendship before it became, you know, posting your friend like a prop on Instagram or sending, getting a Snapchat streak with someone.

00:32:54.840 Again, we've never had the freedom to grow up clumsily.

00:32:57.560 It's always been on social media.

00:32:58.960 We've always had this surveillance on ourselves.

00:33:02.240 And I think sometimes my generation is judged from the perspective of an older generation who had those things.

00:33:09.560 And I think it starts to make more sense when you view it as a generation just trying desperately to simulate what has been degraded.

00:33:18.240 When I was reading your book, I just remembered this memory from about being like 11, 12, maybe 13.

00:33:25.540 So when I grew up, I was very small.

00:33:27.220 I was very skinny.

00:33:28.300 And I spent half a lot of my time in Venezuela.

00:33:30.820 And my Venezuelan family always used to go, you're so white. 1.00

00:33:33.440 Why are you so white?

00:33:34.900 Need to go to the beach, get some sun.

00:33:37.860 Not great advice.

00:33:39.040 I'm talking about advice from family.

00:33:40.540 But I remember that inculcated in me a painful shyness, particularly around when it came to my physical appearance.

00:33:48.180 And even taking photos would be really uncomfortable for me.

00:33:53.480 I do it, but there was no part of that that was pleasurable for me in the slightest.

00:33:59.020 Yeah.

00:33:59.460 And I was thinking to myself, if that was my experience of having a family photo taken, what would it be like Instagram?

00:34:06.960 Yeah.

00:34:07.200 And you feel like you have to join in.

00:34:10.480 So I was the same.

00:34:11.220 I was painfully shy when I was younger.

00:34:13.180 But I felt like I wouldn't exist if I wasn't posting selfies on Instagram or trying to sort of endlessly prove my existence like everyone else's.

00:34:23.220 And I think for my generation, it's even worse for girls because we grew up with Facetune editing apps. 0.93

00:34:30.740 And for the next generation, like AI beauty filters.

00:34:34.080 So the app Facetune, I spoke about it last time I was on.

00:34:38.740 And it's gotten even worse to the point now where they have a friendly, literally called a friendly AI assistant, where you ask the AI what you want to look like and it will just do it for you.

00:34:49.420 So we would have to go in and like edit our body and edit our faces by hand.

00:34:54.800 Whereas now you just ask and it will just give you a curvier body or transform your face.

00:35:00.220 Then you post that on Instagram and you get attention and validation for that.

00:35:04.900 It does better than an unfiltered, unedited picture.

00:35:07.900 And then you develop dysphoria and you can't see your true self anymore.

00:35:15.120 You can just see, you can kind of click this undo button where suddenly it goes back to the original you and it honestly looks deformed.

00:35:23.860 And it's like horrifying.

00:35:25.500 And I, it took, I was doing that all through my teenage years and it's taken me years to not, like enjoy having a photo taken or allow a photo to be taken of me.

00:35:37.920 Because that contrast between the filtered me and the real me just felt horrifying.

00:35:43.040 And I feel we can very easily get into like blaming parents, shaming parents.

00:35:49.320 Yeah.

00:35:49.620 But I think we also need to have a lot of empathy for parents.

00:35:52.000 It's like when you talk about face tube, I've got no idea.

00:35:55.220 And I'm, and then to a lot of parents, they had no idea of the tech.

00:36:00.940 They had no idea what was actually happening.

00:36:03.420 And more importantly, nobody really had an idea about the long-term consequences of this stuff.

00:36:09.140 And by the way, if you gave your kids a phone in 2007, you were not giving them the phone, like the word is still the same, but the, the thing is completely different.

00:36:21.740 A phone 15 years ago and on a phone today, totally different ballgame.

00:36:25.960 Yeah.

00:36:26.380 Well, I got a phone when it was, so the social media apps were in chronological order.

00:36:31.500 So it was whoever posted in the order that they posted.

00:36:35.080 And then it changed to algorithms where it was then dependent on what you lingered over, what you watched twice, any emotional reaction you had to something.

00:36:46.040 My mom didn't know that they changed the algorithm.

00:36:48.640 Right.

00:36:49.020 And so it went from Instagram being very benign to very sinister very quickly.

00:36:55.000 Um, I kind of have hope for my generation because I think that this conversation is happening and we know more about it.

00:37:03.020 And I think for my parents' generation, there was just no knowing where this was going to go.

00:37:08.100 And they often thought the opposite was going to happen than what did happen.

00:37:11.880 Like we would all become more connected and friendlier and understand each other more.

00:37:16.000 And now we can see that it's pretty much the opposite.

00:37:18.140 My favorite genre of content now is where you see like an influencer and they turn at the wrong angle and all the filters.

00:37:25.360 Have you seen that? 0.98

00:37:26.200 It's fucking incredible. 0.99

00:37:27.400 It's so funny. 0.97

00:37:28.080 But some of the, I mean, have you seen some of the AI filters, how realistic they are?

00:37:31.700 Yeah.

00:37:32.120 So when I was younger, if you sort of waved your hand in front of your face, it would glitch off.

00:37:36.900 But now you can film a whole video of yourself as someone else using AI.

00:37:42.220 Because when I was growing up, and this was also happened 20 years ago because of the tabloid press, more and more parents, understandably so, were concerned about safety.

00:37:53.640 And in particular, physical safety.

00:37:55.780 And it seemed like every summer there'd be some type of horrific crime where a young girl got kidnapped and they went missing.

00:38:04.460 Awful.

00:38:05.780 So people equated safety with physical safety.

00:38:09.180 And they think, well, if my daughter's upstairs on her phone, she's safe.

00:38:13.660 Yeah.

00:38:14.100 But that's not true.

00:38:15.580 Yeah, I think the weird, a weird thing happened where I wrote the book thinking my generation was so infantilized and coddled.

00:38:23.720 That was my initial assumption.

00:38:25.840 And then I got to the end and I was like, it's actually two things happening at once where we're infantilized, but we're also forced to grow up very fast.

00:38:33.600 And so you have adult expectations on young people at the same time as they're being infantilized.

00:38:40.100 So you have girls worrying about wrinkles before they're through puberty, literally. 1.00

00:38:46.200 Then you have girls thinking their normal emotions are serious disorders and diagnosis, and they can tell you all about these disorders at a very young age. 0.61

00:38:56.980 Then you have girls expected to have fully formed political opinions that they can post online and represent and defend before they've even left home. 1.00

00:39:07.000 So you have that conflict all the time.

00:39:10.940 You have like a hustle culture online, but then you have a helicopter parent at home.

00:39:15.700 And then you have these really weird contradictions where adults' TV shows will become infantilized, but kids' TV shows will become sexualized.

00:39:24.700 And so you have a really confusing time for young people where they're being treated like adults in some sense, but then they're going through this extended adolescence at the same time.

00:39:35.240 So I think what happens is they have the adult pressure, but with none of the life experience or resilience to actually process and handle it.

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00:41:33.360 And it's also as well that the more time you spend online, the more it warps your ideas of the world.

00:41:40.580 Because in the real world, there are certain things that you cannot do.

00:41:44.660 Like, I see a lot of young men doing this, and particularly a lot of young men in our space,

00:41:48.560 speaking to people in ways which are quite frankly antagonistic, borderline disrespectful. 0.94

00:41:55.040 And there's part of me thinking, mate, if you talk like that to that bloke in real life, you'd get your head kicked in. 0.96

00:42:01.520 Yeah. 0.98

00:42:02.000 But if that's all you've known, which is going on social media and then being, to put it quite frankly, a prick. 0.94

00:42:08.800 Yeah.

00:42:09.440 And getting away with it, and not even getting away with it, just getting engagement, then why wouldn't you do that?

00:42:14.920 Bring back head kicking.

00:42:15.840 Yeah, I think it's, again, we see each other as objects.

00:42:21.540 I mean, I find it bizarre that people think you can grow up, you can have your puberty on social media,

00:42:28.480 and then you'll just become a fully formed, polite, functioning adult who has great relationships,

00:42:33.240 even though you've spent your whole puberty consuming other people's lives, like content,

00:42:38.360 swiping through people like objects, disposing of people, you know, treating people badly, blocking them, moving on, ghosting people.

00:42:47.420 I think if you do that for a decade, and then you try to be someone who is respectful of other people,

00:42:54.440 sees them as fully human, sees them in full context, that's a lot to ask of younger generations.

00:43:00.540 And I think it with relationships as well, you have conservatives saying, you know,

00:43:04.360 why don't young people want to settle down and, you know, have children and be in relationships?

00:43:09.300 And it's like, do we really expect them to grow up watching graphic porn, sometimes from as young as six?

00:43:16.100 And then they don't get in a relationship till maybe 16, 18, because they're delaying their first boyfriend and girlfriend.

00:43:22.540 So that could be after a decade of watching porn.

00:43:25.460 We expect them to do that, but then file that away and then be a perfect partner,

00:43:30.120 who's really good at compromising and sacrificing and caring for someone.

00:43:34.900 So I think we have to look at what we've trained young people to think like,

00:43:39.120 and how we've trained them to treat other people.

00:43:41.480 And that's what I think we're seeing the consequences of now.

00:43:44.680 I was, it was really interesting you say this, I was on a date with someone and she said,

00:43:49.880 I was like, oh, well, what's dating like? How are you finding it?

00:43:52.060 And she went, it's awful.

00:43:53.100 And I went, what do you mean? And she's 30.

00:43:55.360 And I was like, and she went, I can't really date people of my own age, men of my own age.

00:44:00.580 And I'm like, why not? And she went, because they have the look.

00:44:03.800 They get the look.

00:44:05.300 And I went, what do you mean by the look?

00:44:06.760 And she said, it's when I know they've watched too much porn and they look at me.

00:44:12.520 And I can tell that even though we're having a drink, we're having dinner,

00:44:16.240 they're already fantasising about what they're doing to my body.

00:44:19.960 Yeah. I think you can, you grow up watching porn, you just see people as categories on porn sites

00:44:28.340 and you see them as things to get pleasure from.

00:44:31.840 And I think this is, the discussion about porn is always on the individual child who's watched it,

00:44:40.180 not really on the society and what it does to the social fabric and what it does to forming relationships when you're older.

00:44:47.140 And you've got, yeah, men like that who see women as just inanimate objects.

00:44:51.520 But then you have women thinking that all men are insatiable and predatory and evil 0.98

00:44:56.620 because they've grown up watching, you know, violent porn, probably watching real sexual assault and abuse, 0.91

00:45:02.660 if you think of the statistics on the porn sites.

00:45:05.500 What do you mean, the statistics on the porn sites?

00:45:10.000 So in 2020, the New York Times did an investigation of Pornhub

00:45:14.280 and found that they were hosting videos of real underage victims and sex-trafficked victims.

00:45:21.060 And they had to remove 60% of their website from unverified users.

00:45:25.440 It was like 10 million videos.

00:45:27.440 And so in all likelihood, you've seen a video of something like that where real abuse is happening.

00:45:33.040 And you could be watching that when you're young.

00:45:34.580 And then, yeah, people say, why do all these feminists, young women, not want to settle down with men? 1.00

00:45:40.780 They probably have the worst view of men ever because they have porn, 1.00

00:45:45.180 but then they also have all of this gender discourse online, like we said,

00:45:48.760 which is the hurt, probably resentful, bitter men talking about women.

00:45:53.420 And so why would you take the massive risk of having a child with someone and settling down?

00:45:58.900 I think the root of it is fear and vulnerability.

00:46:02.220 Well, yeah, and before you even get there, one of the things that's incredibly powerful about human behavior

00:46:08.000 is the power of your attention.

00:46:10.600 If we're driving down the road and I say to you, Freya, count all the green cars,

00:46:14.920 you'll count the green cars.

00:46:16.060 You will not notice the red cars that are going by.

00:46:19.140 So if you've been primed to see men in a certain way or see women in a certain way

00:46:24.020 or see relationships in a certain way, the first sign of like your partner not being perfect,

00:46:31.380 you go, okay, I know what this is.

00:46:33.820 This is that thing that I've been told about my entire life,

00:46:36.720 when it's just like a person being human.

00:46:38.800 Yeah, I mean, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but with software engineering behind it.

00:46:43.700 So you have, maybe you have a suspicion about your partner and in the past you talk to friends and family,

00:46:50.060 they'd rationalize you and say, you know, not everyone's perfect.

00:46:53.180 You have a suspicion.

00:46:54.520 So you then accidentally linger over something which is suspicious of men.

00:46:58.360 And then you get the bombardment of, this is a red flag, you should leave.

00:47:04.500 You're in danger, essentially.

00:47:06.420 And I think this is a big part of the discussion about young people being so fearful that we miss,

00:47:12.320 is that we think of that as, oh, Gen Z are scared to talk on the phone.

00:47:16.260 Well, they're scared to order in restaurants, which is true.

00:47:19.240 But we miss that they're actually scared to have a human relationship

00:47:23.920 and they're scared to do things that previous generations did really without introspecting

00:47:31.180 and analyzing to the extent that we think you have to.

00:47:34.180 So I wrote a piece recently where I spoke about my grandparents having children.

00:47:38.900 And I asked them about getting engaged and having children and why they did it.

00:47:43.140 And they didn't really have an answer, which to me is insane.

00:47:48.980 It's like a completely different way of viewing the world.

00:47:51.260 And I think my generation immediately thinks that is reckless.

00:47:56.860 We don't think that that's pretty human to meet someone and get married and have children

00:48:01.740 without laying everything out.

00:48:03.560 But I think the assumption we have now is that you have to analyze every possible risk.

00:48:09.160 Only when you've cleared that risk can you commit to someone.

00:48:12.720 And I think that's why so many of us are alone.

00:48:15.380 Which just sucks because it's kind of the point of being young

00:48:19.180 is when you don't have all these reservations and concerns.

00:48:22.660 You just go for stuff.

00:48:24.060 And because of that, you make mistakes along the way, like everybody.

00:48:27.600 But you also, you know, my wife and I, we met at 18.

00:48:31.060 We were married at 20.

00:48:32.080 Even back then, this is 23 years ago now,

00:48:34.720 everyone thought we were totally crazy to get married at 20.

00:48:37.000 All the older people around me are like,

00:48:39.400 well, why are you getting married?

00:48:40.620 Do you understand what that means?

00:48:42.240 I remember one person at work said to me,

00:48:44.760 well, that means what's yours is hers and what's hers. 0.99

00:48:47.460 And I was like, I fucking know. 0.85

00:48:49.520 Fine, we'll work it out, you know? 0.97

00:48:52.320 That's kind of how life is.

00:48:54.100 You work it out together.

00:48:55.940 And the thing that people don't tell young people nearly enough is

00:48:58.900 it's a hell of a lot easier to work stuff out together

00:49:02.380 if you're on a team with somebody than it is by yourself.

00:49:07.320 And it's sad that that is being lost, you know?

00:49:10.480 Yeah, I think what we're teaching young people now

00:49:13.180 is kind of an impossible thing,

00:49:14.560 which is that you can self-actualize alone.

00:49:17.600 You can do it all alone.

00:49:18.980 You can't.

00:49:19.380 So you have young people saying they feel all this pressure

00:49:22.300 to settle down and get married.

00:49:23.820 And I think what they're really talking about

00:49:26.320 is you have pressure to cram in all your self-actualization

00:49:29.520 before you meet someone

00:49:30.640 or before you take on a responsibility.

00:49:33.100 So it's like you have to be,

00:49:34.800 you have to love yourself,

00:49:35.880 you have to be healed,

00:49:36.800 you have to be whole,

00:49:39.100 you have to be able to do life alone,

00:49:41.960 you have to be independent.

00:49:42.900 And then when you've ticked all of that off,

00:49:45.680 you can meet someone.

00:49:46.660 Sounds rather ambitious to me.

00:49:47.920 I mean, I'm 43.

00:49:49.040 I don't know if I've ticked all those boxes.

00:49:50.800 I don't think anyone has ticked all those boxes.

00:49:52.840 It's impossible.

00:49:53.600 And I think it's especially cruel for young women

00:49:56.140 because we want to depend on someone

00:49:57.520 and we want someone to take care of us

00:50:00.500 when we're struggling.

00:50:01.260 And I think we're telling young people now,

00:50:03.740 young women,

00:50:04.980 if you struggle with being independent,

00:50:08.220 if you struggle with being insecure

00:50:09.900 insecure or jealous or unsure of what to do,

00:50:13.120 you're not ready for a relationship

00:50:14.400 or you're not quite there yet.

00:50:16.340 There's like this way of being

00:50:17.700 that you need to achieve

00:50:18.980 before you let someone in.

00:50:20.760 Not realizing that,

00:50:22.160 you know,

00:50:22.840 we find ourselves often in other people.

00:50:26.620 And actually a lot of happiness

00:50:28.260 comes from caring for other people.

00:50:30.620 And then we're telling a generation

00:50:32.240 to arrange their lives

00:50:34.600 so almost nothing is ever asked of them.

00:50:36.880 and then spending all that time

00:50:39.880 introspecting and doing the work

00:50:42.420 and figuring themselves out.

00:50:43.680 Whereas really,

00:50:44.880 you can figure yourself out

00:50:45.980 with another person

00:50:46.840 and it's often easier.

00:50:47.980 A lot easier.

00:50:48.840 A lot easier.

00:50:49.380 That's certainly been my experience.

00:50:50.900 One of the things you touch on there,

00:50:52.300 you're very wise

00:50:53.860 to stay away from the politics

00:50:55.620 of all of this,

00:50:56.280 but it's kind of hard

00:50:57.200 to stay away from it completely.

00:50:59.240 I know you've done a bunch

00:51:00.040 of mainstream media interviews

00:51:01.380 where people have tried to pull you

00:51:02.620 in different directions.

00:51:03.980 But inevitably, unfortunately,

00:51:05.780 we kind of live in a world

00:51:06.920 when, you know,

00:51:07.780 what you just said

00:51:08.720 was like young women 0.92

00:51:09.600 want to depend on someone

00:51:10.800 and have someone help them.

00:51:12.840 Like, that in itself

00:51:14.100 is like super controversial statement.

00:51:16.340 Which, yeah.

00:51:18.620 And it's kind of hard

00:51:19.760 to discuss all of this

00:51:20.640 without getting into

00:51:21.400 a little bit of the gender dynamics, 0.99

00:51:22.820 isn't it?

00:51:23.180 Yeah.

00:51:23.620 I think that is a real cruelty

00:51:26.760 that we've told young people

00:51:28.060 that it's...

00:51:29.620 I think young women

00:51:30.800 have a real fear of dependence

00:51:32.400 because we've told them so much.

00:51:35.400 That's a really dangerous place to be.

00:51:37.560 And again, like I said

00:51:38.320 at the beginning,

00:51:39.080 we keep getting told

00:51:40.260 that the biggest danger

00:51:41.620 and the biggest problem

00:51:42.660 is too much dependence on men.

00:51:44.900 So they're very resistant

00:51:46.000 to any conversation about that.

00:51:48.340 But humans need to depend on people.

00:51:51.560 And especially,

00:51:53.180 say you're a woman like me,

00:51:55.040 you're very ruminative

00:51:56.220 and introspective.

00:51:57.560 It really helps

00:51:58.600 to have someone

00:51:59.180 who thinks more externally

00:52:01.480 and doesn't go inwards.

00:52:03.720 And women are more prone 1.00

00:52:04.960 to going inwards

00:52:05.980 and thinking things

00:52:07.440 over and over and over.

00:52:09.380 And it just helps

00:52:10.580 to have a partner

00:52:11.240 who can rationalize

00:52:12.320 some of these things for you.

00:52:13.580 And I think the issue is

00:52:15.640 we're now telling young women

00:52:16.960 there's something wrong with them

00:52:18.220 if they want to depend

00:52:19.920 or if they need help with things.

00:52:23.520 And I think we put them

00:52:24.580 in a really cruel dynamic

00:52:26.700 where we say

00:52:27.560 you need to be vulnerable

00:52:28.980 and open up about your feelings

00:52:30.240 all the time.

00:52:31.460 And, you know,

00:52:32.500 it's really good

00:52:33.280 to be aware of your mental health

00:52:34.820 and to help other people

00:52:35.820 by sharing how you feel.

00:52:37.280 But then we also say

00:52:38.260 a strong, independent woman

00:52:39.880 never gets jealous.

00:52:40.900 She never gets insecure.

00:52:42.480 You know,

00:52:42.740 she never worries about anything.

00:52:44.860 And so what we often do,

00:52:47.140 I think,

00:52:47.460 is we take girls' instincts 0.85

00:52:49.780 and we reframe them

00:52:50.880 as insecurity.

00:52:52.920 So if you have an instinct

00:52:53.700 to depend on someone,

00:52:54.620 you're just insecure.

00:52:55.960 Or let's say you have a partner 0.97

00:52:57.340 who's addicted to porn 0.86

00:52:59.040 and you don't like it.

00:53:00.540 It will get reframed

00:53:01.720 as you're insecure

00:53:02.440 and you're controlling.

00:53:04.240 So we take these natural needs

00:53:07.240 and feelings

00:53:07.880 and make girls 1.00

00:53:08.700 feel confused about them

00:53:10.680 and then they pathologize themselves

00:53:12.260 and diagnose themselves.

00:53:15.020 A saying that kept coming up

00:53:16.940 as I was reading the book

00:53:17.960 was a little information

00:53:20.300 is a dangerous thing.

00:53:21.620 You listen to pee

00:53:23.520 the way people talk.

00:53:24.460 You go,

00:53:25.040 was every one of your exes

00:53:26.560 a narcissist?

00:53:27.600 Yeah.

00:53:28.120 Literally every single one

00:53:29.680 of them had NPD,

00:53:30.940 which is quite a rare disorder.

00:53:33.160 Yeah.

00:53:33.360 And one of it is you,

00:53:34.280 I'm not saying

00:53:34.940 you may have dated a narcissist,

00:53:36.400 but one of the two traits

00:53:37.900 of narcissism

00:53:38.680 is a fundamental inability

00:53:40.860 to empathize with others.

00:53:42.680 Yeah.

00:53:43.500 And you just go,

00:53:45.160 come on,

00:53:45.500 not everyone is a narcissist.

00:53:46.700 Not everyone has autism.

00:53:47.720 Not everyone has ADHD.

00:53:48.440 Not unless you're dating

00:53:49.240 within the media space,

00:53:50.300 in which case.

00:53:52.340 Yeah.

00:53:53.180 In which case,

00:53:54.000 maybe you're right.

00:53:56.360 Yeah,

00:53:56.840 I think,

00:53:57.460 I really think therapy speak

00:53:59.320 is ruining our language.

00:54:01.880 I think that it's

00:54:03.020 all of these disorders

00:54:04.620 and diagnosis

00:54:05.240 and even just the therapy

00:54:06.460 way of seeing the world.

00:54:08.880 I think it ruins relationships

00:54:10.760 because it's too much information.

00:54:12.320 It's too introspective

00:54:13.840 and risk-averse.

00:54:15.140 I think we're also losing

00:54:17.000 the language for personalities.

00:54:19.140 So instead of being forgetful,

00:54:21.340 you have ADHD. 0.56

00:54:22.300 Instead of being shy, 0.92

00:54:23.240 you have autism.

00:54:24.600 We're also losing the language

00:54:26.120 for just character

00:54:27.720 and good traits.

00:54:29.860 So instead of being selfless,

00:54:31.400 you're now a people pleaser

00:54:32.460 who needs help with that.

00:54:34.840 You can't be a hard worker.

00:54:36.580 You have to be like

00:54:37.400 a traumatized,

00:54:38.700 insecure,

00:54:39.360 overachiever.

00:54:40.300 You can't be

00:54:41.420 a hopeless romantic.

00:54:42.760 You have to be

00:54:43.800 anxiously attached.

00:54:46.000 And so you have

00:54:46.940 all these young people

00:54:48.260 growing up

00:54:48.820 and anything that's

00:54:49.840 too human about them,

00:54:51.300 like habit

00:54:51.940 or an eccentricity

00:54:53.000 or a flaw,

00:54:54.720 has to be inspected

00:54:55.720 and figured out

00:54:56.980 and then becomes

00:54:58.200 a problem to be solved.

00:55:00.180 So you have young women.

00:55:02.300 I mean,

00:55:02.500 I talk about these TikToks

00:55:03.600 in the book.

00:55:04.060 So these TikTok influencers

00:55:05.280 really don't help

00:55:06.380 where they do videos

00:55:07.360 like five signs

00:55:09.140 you have autism

00:55:09.800 and the sign is like 0.99

00:55:11.760 you're chatty.

00:55:12.760 or you're like

00:55:13.880 can't sit still

00:55:15.220 for ADHD.

00:55:16.700 So one medication company

00:55:18.780 called Cerebral

00:55:19.680 that in America

00:55:20.680 will send you medication

00:55:21.620 to your door,

00:55:22.820 they had an ad that said

00:55:24.060 being spacey,

00:55:25.880 forgetful,

00:55:26.380 and chatty

00:55:26.940 is a sign that you might

00:55:28.220 need ADHD medication.

00:55:30.460 And so

00:55:30.760 you have young people

00:55:32.100 consuming this all the time

00:55:33.620 and then

00:55:34.260 pathologizing

00:55:35.140 every personality trait

00:55:36.940 they have

00:55:37.540 until nobody's

00:55:38.800 normal.

00:55:39.360 Exactly.

00:55:40.420 I remember

00:55:40.760 a friend of mine,

00:55:42.420 his nephew,

00:55:43.880 his family

00:55:44.720 were talking about

00:55:45.320 whether he has ADHD

00:55:46.340 and I was like,

00:55:47.760 and they asked me

00:55:48.480 because they were like,

00:55:48.900 you're a teacher,

00:55:49.420 what do you think?

00:55:50.000 And I went,

00:55:50.660 he's three years old.

00:55:52.560 Yeah.

00:55:52.760 That's what he does.

00:55:53.920 Little boys go around

00:55:55.120 messing stuff up.

00:55:56.540 Yeah.

00:55:56.760 That's what they are.

00:55:58.860 Don't medicalize him.

00:56:00.520 Let him be a little boy.

00:56:01.640 You've got a little boy.

00:56:03.040 He's happy and healthy.

00:56:04.200 He's a wonderful little man.

00:56:05.800 Just enjoy him.

00:56:07.040 That's terrifying to me

00:56:08.180 as someone who has

00:56:08.880 a three-year-old.

00:56:10.400 Yeah.

00:56:10.780 That people would think

00:56:11.640 like that about

00:56:12.360 a child of that age.

00:56:13.960 The assumption now

00:56:15.000 is like...

00:56:16.020 Something's wrong.

00:56:17.080 Yeah.

00:56:17.300 And the earlier

00:56:17.900 you address it,

00:56:18.760 the better.

00:56:19.220 Right.

00:56:20.180 Let's get them 0.98

00:56:20.860 on Riddling at three.

00:56:21.860 That'll help.

00:56:22.760 But this goes back

00:56:23.660 to the other problem

00:56:24.340 is that we

00:56:25.420 lower the expectations

00:56:27.580 for parents in many ways

00:56:28.760 and raise the expectations

00:56:29.800 of experts and professionals.

00:56:31.580 Yeah.

00:56:31.760 And so parents

00:56:32.700 feel stressed out,

00:56:33.700 but a lot of the stress

00:56:34.540 is finding the right experts

00:56:35.700 to understand their child.

00:56:37.740 And so you have parents

00:56:38.760 thinking,

00:56:39.440 I can't possibly tell

00:56:41.220 if this is my child's personality.

00:56:42.600 I need to get them

00:56:43.680 to an expert

00:56:44.760 as quickly as possible.

00:56:46.660 I think we're going

00:56:47.700 to look back at that

00:56:48.560 and think it was so cruel

00:56:49.880 to teach young people

00:56:51.000 that their personality traits

00:56:53.220 were pathologies.

00:56:54.400 And then they grow up,

00:56:55.520 again,

00:56:55.840 with a self-fulfilling prophecy

00:56:57.060 that they can't achieve stuff

00:56:58.860 or do as well as other people

00:57:00.100 because they've been diagnosed.

00:57:01.200 If you watch or listen

00:57:03.440 to Trigonometry regularly,

00:57:04.960 this won't surprise you.

00:57:06.260 The cost of everyday life

00:57:07.680 has crept up to the point

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00:57:10.180 are feeling the squeeze.

00:57:11.640 You do the right things.

00:57:12.800 You work,

00:57:13.320 you budget,

00:57:13.940 and somehow the money

00:57:14.840 still doesn't go

00:57:15.560 as far as it used to.

00:57:16.900 Food costs more.

00:57:18.060 Insurance costs more.

00:57:19.220 Everything costs more.

00:57:20.200 And more people

00:57:20.840 than you think

00:57:21.480 are quietly filling the gap

00:57:22.780 with credit cards

00:57:23.540 charging 20% or 30% interest.

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00:57:26.440 and that sounds familiar,

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00:57:36.840 What makes them different

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00:57:51.900 And if you start the process now,

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00:58:03.940 America's home for home loans

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00:58:19.000 Yeah, and I have to say,

00:58:20.280 I do think this is where

00:58:21.140 parents need to strap on a pen. 0.99

00:58:22.960 I'm going to use a phrase

00:58:23.700 of Francis that he likes

00:58:24.620 to take some responsibility.

00:58:26.200 But they do

00:58:27.100 because when you are a parent,

00:58:29.060 you're not 14 anymore.

00:58:31.660 Yeah.

00:58:31.980 And you are able to discern

00:58:33.680 between the good information

00:58:34.900 and the bad information

00:58:35.840 that's available online

00:58:36.840 and actually make good choices

00:58:38.580 for your kids

00:58:39.720 if you let go

00:58:40.920 of whatever anxiety,

00:58:42.460 whatever you've decided to have.

00:58:44.040 Like, you can genuinely go out.

00:58:45.720 And the internet,

00:58:46.400 the great,

00:58:47.160 we're talking about

00:58:47.980 the negative side of it

00:58:49.080 and you're totally right

00:58:50.080 about the negative side of it.

00:58:51.600 But the great side of it is

00:58:52.740 there's amazing information

00:58:54.440 available online

00:58:55.420 if you want it.

00:58:57.020 And by the way,

00:58:58.120 the algorithm will give it to you.

00:58:59.860 Like, my Instagram,

00:59:01.380 my Twitter's horrible,

00:59:02.660 but my Instagram algorithm,

00:59:05.600 all it does is it serves me

00:59:06.840 positive parenting content

00:59:08.280 with great advice.

00:59:09.740 Yeah.

00:59:09.940 That's all that it does

00:59:10.900 because that's all that I click on,

00:59:12.760 that's all that I look at, basically.

00:59:14.660 Yeah.

00:59:14.920 And for parents,

00:59:16.280 you don't need to think

00:59:17.700 a three-year-old boy

00:59:18.740 has got ADHD

00:59:19.760 because he's running around too much

00:59:21.040 because if you actually

00:59:21.620 did some reading and research,

00:59:23.500 you'd know that that's what

00:59:24.160 little boys are supposed to do.

00:59:25.300 You know what I mean?

00:59:26.240 Yeah, I think there's

00:59:27.280 an expectation

00:59:28.780 young people have of perfection

00:59:30.340 because we're trying

00:59:31.920 to be these perfect products.

00:59:33.440 And I think life has become

00:59:34.960 optimizing yourself on the market.

00:59:38.100 And so you have to be

00:59:39.280 this pristine product.

00:59:40.720 And if there's anything

00:59:41.320 slightly off about you

00:59:43.660 or imperfect,

00:59:45.120 you diagnose it, essentially.

00:59:47.440 And I think that parents

00:59:49.240 are doing that as well,

00:59:50.660 whether they're expecting perfection.

00:59:53.620 And I think one of the easiest things

00:59:54.920 for parents to do

00:59:55.780 is just accept some flaws

00:59:58.080 in their children

00:59:58.960 and in raising them.

01:00:01.600 And one of the really important things

01:00:03.480 to do is to instill in them

01:00:04.660 that they are a human

01:00:05.620 and they will say things

01:00:08.060 they regret.

01:00:08.860 They will make mistakes.

01:00:10.200 They will maybe

01:00:11.540 be with the wrong person.

01:00:13.540 There's only so much you can do

01:00:15.140 to protect from these things.

01:00:16.740 And I think a lot of the anxiety

01:00:18.060 for young people

01:00:18.760 is that they think

01:00:19.520 they have to be perfect

01:00:21.000 and they have to go through life

01:00:22.100 without making mistakes.

01:00:24.000 And always inspecting themselves

01:00:25.920 for defects.

01:00:26.640 And also worrying

01:00:29.040 when they are too human,

01:00:30.800 like when they have

01:00:31.320 human feelings and emotions,

01:00:33.120 that's okay.

01:00:34.060 You don't have to immediately

01:00:35.320 categorize that

01:00:36.920 and diagnose it.

01:00:38.340 You can just sit with it

01:00:40.080 and know that

01:00:40.720 you're a human being.

01:00:42.240 And I think this is something

01:00:43.300 that's getting lost now

01:00:44.740 in a world

01:00:45.240 where we're trying

01:00:46.220 to be products.

01:00:47.360 And I think part of the problem is,

01:00:49.200 and I think this is true

01:00:50.080 with social justice movements as well,

01:00:52.300 that we've gone,

01:00:53.640 we went from one end

01:00:54.660 of the pendulum

01:00:55.260 right the way through

01:00:56.540 to the other.

01:00:57.840 So when I was a kid,

01:00:58.860 I had real problems.

01:00:59.940 I still do.

01:01:00.580 It's something that I have to work on

01:01:01.660 every day,

01:01:02.080 problems with concentration.

01:01:03.820 And I remember when I was at school,

01:01:05.420 they got me my own desk

01:01:07.300 away from the other kids.

01:01:08.240 They were like,

01:01:08.460 Francis isn't going to be able

01:01:09.200 to pass the exams.

01:01:10.080 You can't concentrate.

01:01:10.920 You can't focus.

01:01:12.040 He's whatever else.

01:01:13.340 But we don't really do that anymore.

01:01:15.760 Yeah.

01:01:16.120 Well, one of the issues

01:01:17.380 with too much

01:01:19.160 mental health awareness

01:01:20.040 is that you lose awareness

01:01:21.240 for people who genuinely need it

01:01:23.240 because everybody's sick.

01:01:24.660 And I think then

01:01:26.880 everybody thinks

01:01:29.000 they need constant intervention

01:01:30.680 and then the people

01:01:31.500 that do need it

01:01:32.420 can't access it as much.

01:01:35.540 So for example,

01:01:36.560 therapy.

01:01:37.560 The therapy companies

01:01:38.540 don't say,

01:01:39.900 you know,

01:01:40.140 you need therapy

01:01:40.860 if you have severe trauma

01:01:42.220 or you have this disorder.

01:01:44.000 They say everyone needs therapy.

01:01:45.940 That's literally the tagline.

01:01:48.160 And then some of the reasons

01:01:50.380 for therapy that influencers

01:01:52.040 will give will be

01:01:53.300 first date nerves

01:01:55.140 or exam stress.

01:01:57.700 And so you end up convincing

01:01:59.560 young people

01:02:00.900 that they all need

01:02:01.840 this assistance.

01:02:02.900 And then what's happening is

01:02:04.480 you have such a demand

01:02:05.740 because it's,

01:02:07.300 everyone is human

01:02:08.120 and it's impossible

01:02:09.060 to heal from that.

01:02:10.040 So everybody has an issue

01:02:11.580 and then the therapy

01:02:13.560 gets diluted down.

01:02:15.300 So when I say therapy,

01:02:16.840 you probably think of

01:02:17.640 like in-person therapy.

01:02:20.160 That's not what my generation

01:02:21.720 thinks therapy is.

01:02:22.880 So in the 2010s,

01:02:24.040 it became emailing a therapist

01:02:26.200 which you could do

01:02:27.040 through BetterHelp

01:02:27.900 and Talkspace.

01:02:29.140 Then it wasn't emailing a therapist.

01:02:30.700 Then it was texting a therapist.

01:02:32.580 Then it was texting a therapist

01:02:34.060 24-7.

01:02:35.320 So you have a therapy room

01:02:36.620 which is like a conversation

01:02:38.260 where you can message them

01:02:39.760 any time with an issue

01:02:41.160 or a need

01:02:42.180 which is not what therapy

01:02:43.240 is supposed to be.

01:02:45.640 And all the advertisements

01:02:47.100 are like

01:02:47.640 never have to leave

01:02:48.620 the comfort of your room.

01:02:49.660 So it's playing into the

01:02:50.980 risk aversion

01:02:51.980 and anxiety of young people.

01:02:53.940 Now the therapist

01:02:54.820 doesn't even have to be human.

01:02:56.260 It could be an AI chatbot

01:02:58.020 or a mental health app.

01:03:00.400 And so I think

01:03:01.080 I'm often sceptical of therapy

01:03:03.260 and people say to me

01:03:04.380 you know

01:03:05.040 therapy is really valuable.

01:03:07.100 I really needed it.

01:03:08.300 But it's like

01:03:09.080 okay

01:03:09.640 that's not the type of therapy

01:03:10.820 young people

01:03:11.420 associate the word therapy with.

01:03:14.120 And also with these therapy terms

01:03:15.880 like I'm sure

01:03:16.540 some of them are useful.

01:03:18.380 Young people are not learning 1.00

01:03:19.600 the perfect definition.

01:03:21.720 And again

01:03:22.240 they don't have the discernment to know.

01:03:23.880 So they're getting the pop

01:03:24.800 therapy stuff

01:03:25.840 on Instagram.

01:03:26.580 And it's just

01:03:27.700 a very different

01:03:28.700 concept of therapy

01:03:30.600 than what older generations

01:03:31.760 think of.

01:03:33.140 And it's such a profound point

01:03:35.580 because

01:03:36.040 if everybody is ill

01:03:38.040 if everybody is sick

01:03:39.640 Yeah.

01:03:40.260 then

01:03:40.640 what do these terms

01:03:42.020 actually mean?

01:03:43.600 Yeah.

01:03:44.140 I think it's

01:03:44.820 one in 36

01:03:46.260 children in the UK

01:03:47.700 are thought to be autistic.

01:03:48.580 and it's

01:03:50.080 it's risen

01:03:50.920 from 98

01:03:51.960 to I think

01:03:52.820 2018

01:03:53.300 it rose by

01:03:54.100 787%

01:03:55.440 and it just

01:03:56.480 keeps going.

01:03:58.040 And so you'd expect it

01:03:58.920 if it's awareness

01:03:59.580 to sort of plateau

01:04:00.440 at some point

01:04:01.020 but it's just going

01:04:01.760 and going

01:04:02.240 because it's encompassing

01:04:04.040 more and more

01:04:04.540 personality traits.

01:04:06.200 By 2060

01:04:07.020 everyone will be autistic. 0.91

01:04:08.140 Yeah.

01:04:09.020 In a much better world

01:04:10.000 it will be.

01:04:11.300 But it's also as well

01:04:12.780 when I was reading the book

01:04:14.100 I was thinking

01:04:14.700 the pandemic

01:04:16.400 must have a significant

01:04:17.500 part to play

01:04:18.320 in all this.

01:04:19.000 It must do.

01:04:20.420 Yeah.

01:04:20.740 I think

01:04:21.120 well Jonathan Haidt

01:04:22.160 talks about this

01:04:22.760 that

01:04:23.020 teenagers were already

01:04:24.860 social distancing

01:04:25.640 before the pandemic

01:04:26.480 and then

01:04:27.360 so a lot of these things

01:04:28.640 were already happening

01:04:29.360 but then what happened

01:04:30.540 was

01:04:31.360 the level of simulations

01:04:34.540 and substitutes

01:04:35.480 for things

01:04:35.980 everything was just

01:04:37.180 made so much more convenient

01:04:38.260 and so much easier.

01:04:40.080 So Gen Z 1.00

01:04:41.000 are already growing up

01:04:41.780 in a world

01:04:42.340 where they don't really

01:04:42.880 have to interact

01:04:43.480 with a human.

01:04:44.700 But then

01:04:45.300 everything gets

01:04:46.340 way more convenient

01:04:47.400 so you have

01:04:48.200 online communities 0.54

01:04:50.200 you have online porn

01:04:51.640 you have online therapy

01:04:52.680 you have online lectures

01:04:53.700 you have

01:04:54.800 online delivery services

01:04:56.980 you just don't have

01:04:58.460 to look a human

01:04:59.080 in the eye

01:04:59.640 at all.

01:05:01.200 And if you again

01:05:02.160 are in those

01:05:02.880 formative vulnerable years

01:05:04.240 where you're 14, 15

01:05:05.480 and you learn

01:05:06.740 not to interact

01:05:08.420 with people

01:05:08.980 and then you become

01:05:10.220 dependent on the simulations

01:05:11.740 and so I think

01:05:12.460 the pandemic

01:05:13.000 just really

01:05:13.860 it tore

01:05:15.700 everything apart

01:05:16.440 that was already

01:05:17.120 fraying.

01:05:18.480 And we've talked

01:05:19.620 about this

01:05:20.060 with Lionel Shriver

01:05:20.860 it's that

01:05:21.640 we seem to have

01:05:23.120 evolved

01:05:23.540 into a society

01:05:24.680 that is constantly

01:05:25.560 looking for comfort

01:05:26.460 but it's like the metaphor

01:05:28.520 if you're looking

01:05:29.320 for comfort all the time

01:05:30.340 and you're sitting

01:05:31.220 on a metaphorical sofa

01:05:32.540 day in

01:05:33.420 day out

01:05:33.960 number one

01:05:34.660 you're going to get

01:05:35.080 pretty depressed

01:05:35.620 you're also going to get

01:05:36.440 pretty fat

01:05:37.020 your muscles are going

01:05:38.140 to be weak

01:05:38.640 you're going to become

01:05:39.160 lethargic 0.96

01:05:39.860 comfort will destroy

01:05:41.800 yeah

01:05:42.580 and this is the issue

01:05:43.540 with a lot of the

01:05:45.000 mental health advice

01:05:45.820 now is it's about

01:05:46.960 affirming and validating

01:05:48.700 your struggles

01:05:50.000 so if you're

01:05:51.180 I was so socially anxious

01:05:52.820 when I was young

01:05:53.580 and the worst thing

01:05:54.960 that could have happened

01:05:55.640 would be me joining

01:05:56.780 like a social anxiety

01:05:58.060 Reddit forum

01:05:58.640 or like following

01:06:00.100 social anxiety

01:06:01.060 influences

01:06:01.640 because typically

01:06:02.980 they'll say things like

01:06:04.160 you're different

01:06:05.320 from just shy people

01:06:06.600 so shy people

01:06:08.460 will struggle

01:06:09.120 to speak on the phone

01:06:10.200 or to you know

01:06:11.380 be in big groups

01:06:12.740 socially anxious people

01:06:14.540 it will cause a panic attack

01:06:15.960 it will cause something

01:06:16.960 much more severe

01:06:17.900 and like you're feeling

01:06:18.800 it on such a level

01:06:19.740 that it will be unmanageable

01:06:22.040 and when I was 14

01:06:23.340 I would have been like

01:06:23.880 yeah that's me

01:06:24.580 the worst one

01:06:25.720 but then they say

01:06:27.500 oh you know

01:06:27.880 it will be too overwhelming

01:06:29.580 for you

01:06:30.180 to try and do these things

01:06:32.060 and then you

01:06:33.220 unfortunately girls

01:06:34.300 co-ruminate with each other

01:06:35.960 so they bond

01:06:37.340 through talking

01:06:38.600 about their problems

01:06:39.320 over and over

01:06:39.900 and a Reddit forum

01:06:41.640 is like a rumination machine

01:06:43.200 where you're all there

01:06:44.840 to ruminate

01:06:45.840 and so you have

01:06:47.140 socially anxious people

01:06:48.340 saying

01:06:48.820 this awful thing

01:06:50.600 happened to me

01:06:51.300 don't ever put yourself

01:06:52.440 in this situation

01:06:53.220 and you have people

01:06:53.960 avoiding

01:06:54.620 and so I think

01:06:56.160 as you say

01:06:57.240 we're

01:06:57.800 we

01:06:58.820 try and chase comfort

01:07:00.600 and then we say

01:07:02.160 but we're so

01:07:03.040 disordered

01:07:04.180 we're so struggling

01:07:05.320 that the discomfort

01:07:06.340 would be too much

01:07:07.200 for us

01:07:08.180 I think this is

01:07:09.260 one of the issues

01:07:09.960 with everybody

01:07:10.700 diagnosing themselves

01:07:11.900 is you think

01:07:12.500 you then need to have

01:07:13.500 special treatment

01:07:15.360 or to arrange your life

01:07:16.960 in a way

01:07:17.320 where you don't

01:07:17.900 come across

01:07:18.360 the discomfort

01:07:19.020 because you have

01:07:19.840 a disorder

01:07:20.580 and very often

01:07:21.940 you grow out of it

01:07:22.660 well

01:07:23.000 you grow out of it

01:07:24.400 partly

01:07:25.020 but the other thing

01:07:25.880 I was going to say

01:07:26.620 is so much of being

01:07:27.660 a young person

01:07:28.400 is overcoming

01:07:29.220 all these things

01:07:29.940 like

01:07:30.440 I'd like to think

01:07:31.860 I'm a pretty decent

01:07:32.600 public speaker

01:07:33.300 I used to have

01:07:34.260 a fear

01:07:34.640 of public speaking

01:07:35.940 and one of the reasons

01:07:37.120 I got good at it

01:07:37.940 is I don't want to have

01:07:38.820 a fear of public speaking

01:07:39.600 so I'll go and do this course

01:07:40.660 I'll go and practice

01:07:41.360 I'll go and do this

01:07:42.060 I'll go and do that

01:07:42.740 and so

01:07:43.900 Francis and I

01:07:44.840 could tell you stories

01:07:45.760 for days

01:07:46.420 of like

01:07:47.260 how we were anxious

01:07:48.700 about this

01:07:49.360 or depressed about that

01:07:50.520 or struggle

01:07:50.940 with the very thing

01:07:51.940 that people will look at us now

01:07:53.040 and go

01:07:53.300 oh you're actually

01:07:54.040 really good at this

01:07:54.800 because that is

01:07:56.500 life

01:07:57.220 is going

01:07:58.080 I'm a young person

01:07:59.240 the reason I'm anxious

01:08:00.460 is I don't know anything

01:08:01.800 yeah

01:08:02.560 like why wouldn't you be anxious

01:08:04.180 when you go to apply

01:08:05.200 for a job

01:08:05.760 when you've never done it before

01:08:07.060 you've never had a job before

01:08:08.440 of course you're going to be anxious

01:08:09.440 in an interview

01:08:10.120 right

01:08:10.800 why wouldn't you be anxious

01:08:12.320 about talking on the phone

01:08:14.040 to somebody

01:08:14.820 when you don't know

01:08:15.860 what it is

01:08:16.320 that you're supposed to say

01:08:17.300 like this is normal

01:08:18.380 all of this stuff is normal

01:08:19.700 and your job

01:08:21.280 to go from a young person

01:08:22.760 to an adult

01:08:23.360 is to overcome

01:08:25.060 yeah

01:08:25.620 overcoming is the point

01:08:27.240 but it's offensive

01:08:28.460 to tell 0.99

01:08:29.040 I don't give a fuck 0.99

01:08:29.760 as you probably know 0.99

01:08:31.840 yeah

01:08:32.180 I don't

01:08:33.260 what does that even mean

01:08:34.180 what does it mean

01:08:34.860 it's offensive

01:08:35.340 this is the great

01:08:36.620 Thomas Sow line

01:08:37.480 that I love more than anything

01:08:38.720 which is

01:08:39.180 if you want to help people

01:08:40.460 you tell them the truth

01:08:41.660 if you want to help yourself

01:08:43.060 you tell them

01:08:43.840 what they want to hear

01:08:44.820 and that's what I see online

01:08:46.560 especially

01:08:47.140 and I was going to ask you

01:08:47.960 about this

01:08:48.420 I benefit from this personally

01:08:51.940 I think it's damaging

01:08:54.180 to society

01:08:54.960 it's the monetization

01:08:56.140 of social media

01:08:56.920 yeah

01:08:57.180 the fact that you can now

01:08:58.960 make a living

01:09:00.380 posting just clips

01:09:02.480 on Instagram

01:09:03.800 or Twitter

01:09:04.540 maybe there's no

01:09:06.940 getting away from that

01:09:07.840 but I just

01:09:08.580 I have seen that

01:09:09.940 change social media

01:09:12.880 for the worse

01:09:14.040 in the last two years

01:09:15.760 and it's

01:09:16.400 I mean you can just see it

01:09:17.600 right

01:09:17.840 yeah

01:09:18.100 and it's with everything

01:09:19.060 so the relationship influencers

01:09:21.160 need to make money

01:09:21.920 yeah

01:09:22.240 so they have to hook you

01:09:23.440 they have to keep you engaged

01:09:24.360 they have to keep you coming back

01:09:25.560 yeah

01:09:25.840 so they have to convince you

01:09:26.760 you have an issue

01:09:27.500 yeah

01:09:27.880 and you're scrolling

01:09:28.740 for certainty

01:09:29.780 and wondering if what you have

01:09:31.320 is enough

01:09:32.160 or you should break up

01:09:33.040 yeah

01:09:33.300 so they have to keep you

01:09:34.380 in a state of anxiety

01:09:36.280 they can't actually help you

01:09:38.000 solve your problem

01:09:38.540 because if they did 0.99

01:09:39.340 they're screwed 0.99

01:09:40.660 yeah 0.98

01:09:40.980 but there's that in every

01:09:42.900 sort of arena

01:09:43.720 and then you have it

01:09:44.760 in really perverse places

01:09:46.200 like if you're a family vlogger

01:09:48.140 you need to make money

01:09:49.880 off your children

01:09:50.560 and so if your child

01:09:52.640 if your life

01:09:53.400 it's pretty boring

01:09:54.760 not much is happening

01:09:55.680 you need to invent

01:09:57.280 some sort of plot twist

01:09:58.620 to keep people watching

01:09:59.700 so maybe your child 0.86

01:10:01.400 is trans

01:10:01.940 which happens

01:10:03.200 I talk in the book

01:10:03.920 about one of the biggest

01:10:05.080 family vlogging channels

01:10:06.340 in the UK

01:10:06.840 where the son

01:10:08.980 transitioned to a girl

01:10:10.520 at age five

01:10:11.560 and the channel

01:10:13.280 is full of

01:10:14.400 compilation videos

01:10:15.400 of this poor child

01:10:16.720 in dresses

01:10:17.440 and wigs

01:10:18.120 and like

01:10:18.620 adult makeup

01:10:20.220 with captions like

01:10:22.240 this is not a phase

01:10:23.240 this is his true self

01:10:24.500 and it has like

01:10:25.320 42 million views

01:10:27.280 bring back hanging

01:10:28.940 but it's like

01:10:30.540 then they have to do this

01:10:32.120 because

01:10:32.700 that's what's going to

01:10:34.380 make the most money

01:10:34.980 so they have to vlog

01:10:36.500 his visit to the gender clinic

01:10:38.320 they have to vlog

01:10:39.280 his new name

01:10:40.360 they have to vlog

01:10:40.980 all of this

01:10:41.620 and then you have it with

01:10:43.800 let's say you're a couple

01:10:45.400 influencer

01:10:46.000 and your income

01:10:46.760 is dependent on your relationship

01:10:48.060 you know sharing

01:10:48.940 the proposal

01:10:50.320 and the compliments

01:10:51.240 and you're getting married

01:10:52.360 and everything

01:10:52.800 you need drama

01:10:54.280 because again

01:10:55.360 your life has become

01:10:56.780 an episode on TV

01:10:57.960 and so you have people

01:10:59.660 then

01:11:00.080 you know

01:11:01.460 vlogging about the breakup

01:11:02.880 giving the

01:11:03.560 like worst details of it

01:11:05.180 because it will get clicks

01:11:06.080 I talk about a couple

01:11:07.580 in the book

01:11:08.120 who started a podcast

01:11:09.700 about their relationship

01:11:10.700 but they need

01:11:11.420 thumbnails to get clicks

01:11:12.860 so the thumbnails

01:11:14.100 are like

01:11:14.700 why our sex life

01:11:16.700 has died

01:11:17.280 or like

01:11:18.160 you know

01:11:19.720 the most explosive

01:11:22.020 argument ever

01:11:22.900 caught live on video

01:11:24.000 and the captions 1.00

01:11:24.800 like I hope you die alone 0.97

01:11:26.000 but it's 0.99

01:11:27.480 it's the incentive

01:11:28.400 because otherwise

01:11:29.320 it would be very boring

01:11:30.240 at the start

01:11:32.300 of every year

01:11:33.040 I have the same thought

01:11:34.680 right

01:11:35.460 this is a year

01:11:36.760 I properly

01:11:37.500 sort my finances out

01:11:39.040 not just glance

01:11:40.200 at my bank account

01:11:41.140 and feel vaguely

01:11:41.960 responsible

01:11:42.540 I mean actually

01:11:43.600 take control

01:11:44.480 build a proper

01:11:45.600 emergency fund

01:11:46.780 be intentional

01:11:47.760 about saving

01:11:48.480 for the big things

01:11:49.460 instead of just

01:11:50.420 hoping it somehow

01:11:51.420 works itself out

01:11:52.640 the problem is

01:11:53.600 most finance apps

01:11:54.880 just show you

01:11:55.580 what you already did

01:11:56.680 they tell you

01:11:57.460 where the money went

01:11:58.360 that's useful

01:11:59.480 but it's reactive

01:12:00.400 what I wanted

01:12:01.540 was something

01:12:02.120 that helps me

01:12:02.860 plan ahead

01:12:03.540 and actually

01:12:04.600 move towards a goal

01:12:05.940 set yourself up

01:12:07.360 for financial success

01:12:08.620 this year

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01:12:19.540 and future planning

01:12:20.480 together in one

01:12:21.380 dashboard

01:12:21.840 on your phone

01:12:22.840 or laptop

01:12:23.420 what I like about

01:12:24.540 Monarch

01:12:24.880 is that it shows me

01:12:25.720 exactly where my money

01:12:27.120 is going

01:12:27.640 and more importantly

01:12:29.020 where it could be going

01:12:30.320 you can map out

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01:12:38.160 the visual breakdowns

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01:12:44.000 about past spending

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01:12:49.920 you can view

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01:12:53.900 conversations a lot easier

01:12:55.540 feel aware

01:12:56.540 and in control

01:12:57.260 of your finances

01:12:58.160 this year

01:12:58.740 click the link

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01:13:00.220 of this episode

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01:13:24.020 and you know

01:13:26.280 one thing

01:13:27.240 I've learned

01:13:28.000 in the time

01:13:29.040 we've been doing

01:13:29.520 this is

01:13:30.020 public attention

01:13:32.100 doesn't tend

01:13:33.240 to make these

01:13:33.960 things better

01:13:34.660 you know

01:13:35.780 like if you

01:13:36.320 take a relationship

01:13:37.460 or

01:13:38.560 like if you

01:13:39.620 went through

01:13:41.000 my life

01:13:41.660 and chronicled

01:13:42.740 my parenting

01:13:44.060 let's say

01:13:44.660 right

01:13:44.900 I'm a pretty good

01:13:46.700 dad

01:13:46.940 I would like to think

01:13:47.780 right

01:13:48.020 am I a perfect dad

01:13:49.460 I am not a perfect dad

01:13:51.620 right

01:13:52.020 I am not a perfect husband

01:13:53.260 I'm not a perfect

01:13:54.200 business partner

01:13:54.900 I'm not a perfect

01:13:55.660 I'm not a perfect

01:13:56.700 anything

01:13:56.980 because I'm human

01:13:57.600 right

01:13:57.900 if you went

01:13:59.480 through my life

01:14:00.580 and you filmed it all

01:14:02.080 and then you wanted

01:14:02.920 to make content

01:14:03.700 from that

01:14:04.240 would you make

01:14:05.500 representative content

01:14:06.880 that accurately

01:14:07.680 represents the entire

01:14:08.960 oh no you wouldn't

01:14:10.340 oh no you wouldn't

01:14:12.040 so if you've got

01:14:13.240 these people

01:14:13.740 who are subject

01:14:14.380 to those incentive

01:14:15.140 structures

01:14:15.600 and incentives

01:14:16.200 are the most powerful

01:14:17.180 force in human behavior

01:14:18.440 that has ever existed

01:14:19.640 yeah

01:14:20.260 you end up in a very bad place

01:14:22.180 very quickly

01:14:22.780 and I think that's where we are

01:14:23.700 yeah you need

01:14:24.840 storylines

01:14:26.020 and unfortunately

01:14:27.800 this is happening

01:14:30.280 worst of all

01:14:31.060 with influencers

01:14:31.680 but young people

01:14:32.460 are mimicking

01:14:33.000 their behavior

01:14:33.600 and they also want

01:14:34.700 clicks

01:14:35.120 and likes

01:14:35.960 and they also think

01:14:37.320 that they have to market

01:14:38.320 their own relationships

01:14:39.300 and that puts pressure

01:14:40.500 on relationships

01:14:41.200 everything

01:14:41.880 is ranked and reviewed

01:14:44.300 your relationships

01:14:45.080 ranked and reviewed

01:14:45.740 your proposal

01:14:46.600 is

01:14:47.140 your children

01:14:48.120 and that's what I try

01:14:50.040 and say in the book

01:14:50.620 is it's very difficult

01:14:51.760 to be complete

01:14:53.860 to live a life

01:14:54.560 where you're not

01:14:54.960 commodifying anything

01:14:55.940 so obviously I've written

01:14:57.340 a book

01:14:57.600 I'm selling a book

01:14:58.380 and I commodify

01:15:00.040 my writing

01:15:00.760 so I'm okay

01:15:02.000 for my writing

01:15:03.900 to be ranked

01:15:04.800 and reviewed

01:15:05.300 but I would not be okay

01:15:07.380 for

01:15:07.980 my future children

01:15:09.380 to be ranked

01:15:10.180 and reviewed

01:15:10.660 or

01:15:11.300 yeah something like

01:15:12.460 a proposal

01:15:13.060 like an intimate moment

01:15:14.360 I don't want to offer

01:15:15.980 that up

01:15:16.360 to strangers

01:15:16.960 and so I think

01:15:17.860 the message

01:15:19.040 I'm trying to say

01:15:20.080 to girls

01:15:20.400 is you can commodify

01:15:21.260 your work

01:15:21.900 but

01:15:23.200 be very careful

01:15:24.560 commodifying

01:15:25.160 your actual self

01:15:26.480 and your private life

01:15:27.580 because it's the one

01:15:28.600 haven you have

01:15:30.280 from all of this madness

01:15:31.220 and once you offer

01:15:32.300 a tiny bit up

01:15:33.260 so I always say

01:15:34.660 like if you post

01:15:35.780 one boyfriend

01:15:37.000 people will then ask

01:15:38.600 where's he gone

01:15:39.140 so then you have to

01:15:40.120 explain the breakup

01:15:40.920 if you post

01:15:42.560 one opinion

01:15:43.320 people will ask

01:15:44.340 for updates

01:15:44.960 and then once

01:15:45.660 you've done that

01:15:46.240 they'll ask

01:15:46.740 for other opinions

01:15:47.480 and so

01:15:48.780 once you give

01:15:49.680 a little bit

01:15:50.260 you'll be expected

01:15:50.900 to give more

01:15:51.660 and more

01:15:52.180 because it's

01:15:52.880 you are now

01:15:54.460 a TV show

01:15:56.140 you're a character

01:15:56.980 and they're expecting

01:15:57.900 things from you

01:15:58.900 otherwise they'll just

01:15:59.520 scroll for someone else

01:16:00.780 so

01:16:01.520 what's the answer

01:16:02.620 to all this

01:16:03.020 what do we do

01:16:03.800 I don't know

01:16:04.300 well you do know

01:16:06.520 I mean you give

01:16:07.020 some ideas in the book

01:16:07.980 yeah I think

01:16:08.860 it was difficult

01:16:10.260 for me to give

01:16:10.980 really direct solutions

01:16:12.760 because I'm struggling

01:16:14.080 with all of it

01:16:14.940 and I say

01:16:16.300 throughout the book

01:16:16.840 you know I'm not

01:16:17.440 an expert

01:16:18.340 in these things

01:16:19.400 I'm just

01:16:20.340 have felt them

01:16:21.340 all very intimately

01:16:22.100 and know them so well

01:16:23.100 and I also think

01:16:25.020 it's difficult

01:16:26.640 to come across

01:16:27.220 like you're lecturing

01:16:28.060 and saying

01:16:28.560 well I'm so much

01:16:29.180 better than you guys

01:16:30.020 which you know

01:16:30.720 I've struggled

01:16:31.120 with everything in it

01:16:32.100 but I give some advice

01:16:34.540 especially around

01:16:36.420 becoming a product

01:16:37.260 so something I would

01:16:38.400 say to girls 0.92

01:16:39.020 is to notice

01:16:39.860 when

01:16:40.200 to notice

01:16:41.300 what you're being sold

01:16:42.260 rather than

01:16:42.880 what you're being told

01:16:43.820 so first of all

01:16:45.560 to think about

01:16:46.020 how you actually feel

01:16:47.040 so a lot of these

01:16:48.060 marketing strategies

01:16:49.020 they'll say things like

01:16:50.060 social media

01:16:51.380 will make you feel

01:16:52.100 connected

01:16:52.780 and FaceTune

01:16:54.340 will make you feel

01:16:55.060 confident

01:16:55.540 and you have to

01:16:58.020 really sit

01:16:58.880 and think

01:16:59.240 how do I actually

01:17:00.120 feel

01:17:00.560 after these things

01:17:01.860 like

01:17:02.680 if you

01:17:03.520 FaceTune yourself

01:17:04.520 and post it on Instagram

01:17:05.440 and you feel

01:17:06.300 embarrassed

01:17:07.340 or anxious

01:17:08.280 that is worth

01:17:09.880 paying attention to

01:17:10.600 if you feel ashamed

01:17:11.500 after watching porn

01:17:12.540 that's worth

01:17:13.480 paying attention to

01:17:14.220 if you feel alone

01:17:15.680 after chatting

01:17:16.360 with an AI bot

01:17:17.500 that's worth

01:17:18.140 listening to

01:17:18.940 I think it's

01:17:19.640 actually

01:17:20.420 people say that

01:17:21.880 young women are too 1.00

01:17:22.740 in their feelings

01:17:23.820 but I think

01:17:24.380 we actually need to

01:17:25.780 connect with how

01:17:26.740 we're actually feeling

01:17:27.660 and not being told

01:17:28.720 we should feel

01:17:29.640 the other thing

01:17:30.920 is not to treat

01:17:31.600 other people like

01:17:32.460 products

01:17:33.320 or to notice

01:17:34.240 when you are

01:17:34.940 doing that

01:17:35.700 and the risk aversion

01:17:38.660 as well

01:17:39.100 being comfortable

01:17:40.180 with the human

01:17:41.020 consequences

01:17:42.960 of having a relationship

01:17:44.140 the imperfections

01:17:45.120 that come with that

01:17:46.160 and I think

01:17:47.300 the main thing

01:17:47.820 for me

01:17:48.220 is thinking about

01:17:49.160 the next generation

01:17:50.400 of girls

01:17:50.900 or if I had a daughter

01:17:52.140 would I be happy

01:17:53.880 with her doing

01:17:54.480 these things

01:17:55.040 so if

01:17:55.900 if I find it

01:17:57.460 horrifying

01:17:57.780 to think of

01:17:58.560 a future daughter

01:17:59.420 FaceTuning her

01:18:01.400 pre-pubescent body

01:18:02.820 or you know

01:18:04.480 objectifying herself

01:18:05.480 for strange men

01:18:06.160 on Instagram

01:18:06.600 or being convinced

01:18:08.080 by TikTok strangers 0.84

01:18:09.380 that she's mentally ill 0.96

01:18:10.400 then I don't want it 0.99

01:18:12.240 for me

01:18:12.880 and I think

01:18:13.440 that's

01:18:14.000 for women my age

01:18:15.820 that's a message

01:18:16.340 that might resonate

01:18:17.060 more now

01:18:17.960 let's look at the

01:18:19.680 positives

01:18:20.040 because

01:18:20.660 I know that's not

01:18:21.560 on brand for me

01:18:22.280 and people are going

01:18:22.800 what's going on

01:18:24.540 but there have been

01:18:25.600 some positives

01:18:26.200 for instance

01:18:26.660 one of the positives

01:18:27.460 and this was a couple

01:18:28.280 of years ago

01:18:28.840 was Mark Zuckerberg

01:18:30.180 in his infinite wisdom

01:18:31.200 said we should have

01:18:32.060 Instagram for kids

01:18:33.120 and there was a huge

01:18:34.260 backlash against that

01:18:35.440 and it didn't happen

01:18:36.720 which I think

01:18:37.320 we can all agree

01:18:38.080 was an enormously

01:18:40.540 positive thing

01:18:41.360 so what else

01:18:42.320 has been going on

01:18:43.120 that we can say

01:18:43.800 that's positive

01:18:44.740 we're starting

01:18:45.880 to move this conversation

01:18:46.880 in the right direction

01:18:47.880 I think

01:18:48.740 mostly the conversations

01:18:50.380 people are having

01:18:51.660 are very different

01:18:52.360 so

01:18:53.000 something like

01:18:55.200 sharing your children

01:18:56.180 online

01:18:56.680 it used to be

01:18:58.660 really hard

01:18:59.180 to communicate to people

01:19:00.100 why you shouldn't do that

01:19:00.920 and I think

01:19:01.280 there's much more

01:19:02.120 a reflexive

01:19:03.580 sort of

01:19:04.260 aversion to that now

01:19:05.300 that that's not

01:19:06.220 something you should

01:19:06.820 be doing

01:19:07.280 so obviously

01:19:09.500 you have

01:19:09.820 influencers doing it

01:19:10.960 a lot

01:19:11.240 but I think of

01:19:11.980 like my mum

01:19:13.480 or my generation's

01:19:16.620 parents

01:19:16.940 we would have

01:19:18.200 like entire

01:19:19.240 childhood albums

01:19:21.120 uploaded to Facebook

01:19:22.040 like everything

01:19:23.040 all the holiday pictures

01:19:24.440 would be on Facebook

01:19:25.220 and I don't think

01:19:26.500 that's happening

01:19:27.000 as much anymore

01:19:27.660 I think that's

01:19:28.300 something very

01:19:29.040 unique to the early

01:19:30.620 2010s

01:19:31.160 when we didn't

01:19:31.500 really know

01:19:31.800 what to do

01:19:32.400 with this technology

01:19:33.200 we just put

01:19:33.780 everything on it

01:19:34.560 it was a different

01:19:36.080 thing

01:19:36.440 this is what I'm

01:19:37.080 saying

01:19:37.300 is like

01:19:37.660 Facebook in those

01:19:38.740 days was you

01:19:39.520 and your friends

01:19:40.420 from school

01:19:40.940 with my experience

01:19:41.920 and your family

01:19:42.720 and you'd be

01:19:43.560 oh of course

01:19:43.920 well I want to

01:19:44.480 show my friends

01:19:45.080 and family

01:19:45.540 where I went on

01:19:46.260 holiday

01:19:46.500 that's fine

01:19:47.200 that is not

01:19:47.920 what Facebook

01:19:48.320 is now

01:19:48.740 no

01:19:48.980 and it actually

01:19:49.800 changed from

01:19:50.760 keeping in touch

01:19:51.620 with people you know

01:19:52.400 to meeting new people

01:19:53.540 and then it became

01:19:54.220 the simulation

01:19:54.780 that's right

01:19:55.260 I also think

01:19:56.040 there's more

01:19:56.640 there is sort of

01:19:57.960 a growing forgiveness

01:19:59.320 so like

01:20:00.660 cancel culture

01:20:02.100 I think

01:20:02.620 is

01:20:03.160 changing

01:20:04.620 I feel like

01:20:05.200 there's

01:20:05.620 we've seen

01:20:07.040 some of the worst

01:20:07.760 consequences of

01:20:08.540 cancel culture

01:20:09.140 and I feel like

01:20:09.980 people are now

01:20:11.060 slightly more forgiving

01:20:12.180 toward

01:20:12.940 things people have

01:20:14.280 posted online

01:20:14.980 at 12

01:20:15.500 because we have

01:20:16.820 an understanding

01:20:17.360 now that this is

01:20:18.280 how young people

01:20:19.400 grew up

01:20:19.840 and it was very

01:20:20.460 difficult to be

01:20:21.360 a personal brand

01:20:22.140 at 12

01:20:23.140 and to know

01:20:24.280 what you're doing

01:20:25.040 and I think

01:20:25.860 you know

01:20:26.560 writing my sub stack

01:20:27.540 there are a lot

01:20:28.080 of young women

01:20:28.600 who feel

01:20:29.180 the way I did

01:20:30.380 and

01:20:31.520 when I was sat

01:20:32.500 here last time

01:20:33.020 I was not sure

01:20:33.680 that there was

01:20:34.280 I thought

01:20:34.760 this was

01:20:35.580 could just be me

01:20:36.980 being anxious

01:20:38.200 and ruminating

01:20:39.880 about things

01:20:40.460 but I think

01:20:41.100 there's a lot

01:20:42.580 more young women

01:20:43.280 who have been

01:20:43.860 convinced

01:20:44.320 that the problem

01:20:44.880 is them

01:20:45.320 and I hope

01:20:46.300 that the book

01:20:47.200 and other things

01:20:47.880 will show them

01:20:48.740 that it's not

01:20:49.220 do you support

01:20:50.260 I mean there are

01:20:50.880 countries that are

01:20:51.380 already doing this

01:20:52.340 and a lot

01:20:52.900 of countries

01:20:53.280 that are talking

01:20:53.840 about it

01:20:54.280 banning under-16s

01:20:55.660 from social media

01:20:56.820 it's so difficult

01:20:58.080 I try not to talk

01:20:59.320 about policy

01:20:59.880 because I don't know

01:21:00.600 the unintended

01:21:01.560 consequences

01:21:02.480 you're literally

01:21:03.580 the first person

01:21:04.360 in the history

01:21:04.820 of the show

01:21:05.240 that has said

01:21:05.740 that thing

01:21:06.280 which is totally

01:21:06.980 true

01:21:07.340 because actually

01:21:08.900 that's the biggest

01:21:09.460 thing of any

01:21:09.940 policy

01:21:10.280 is like

01:21:10.640 you know

01:21:11.260 what you're

01:21:11.580 getting

01:21:11.980 positively

01:21:13.640 what are you

01:21:14.120 getting negatively

01:21:14.840 that you haven't

01:21:15.500 thought about

01:21:16.040 yeah so my gut

01:21:16.840 instinct is

01:21:17.500 I love it

01:21:17.980 and I love

01:21:18.400 the sound of

01:21:19.100 you know

01:21:19.680 having to upload

01:21:20.240 ID to watch

01:21:21.300 porn in the UK

01:21:22.060 my gut reaction

01:21:23.340 is that's great

01:21:24.020 but then we have

01:21:25.280 the online safety

01:21:25.960 bill in the UK

01:21:26.640 and we have

01:21:27.340 you know

01:21:28.260 my substat

01:21:29.100 could get flagged

01:21:30.020 as harmful content

01:21:31.200 where you have to

01:21:32.680 upload your ID

01:21:33.480 and so

01:21:34.720 it's very difficult

01:21:36.820 for me to just

01:21:37.340 endorse a policy

01:21:38.680 but I kind of

01:21:39.340 in the book

01:21:40.060 operate on the

01:21:41.060 assumption that

01:21:41.780 let's say

01:21:43.120 there's nothing

01:21:43.620 that can be done

01:21:44.480 legally

01:21:45.440 or companies

01:21:46.700 won't do anything

01:21:47.940 what can you do

01:21:49.160 right now

01:21:49.880 and hopefully

01:21:51.420 it gives young women

01:21:52.720 a sense of agency

01:21:53.440 that there are

01:21:54.140 decisions they can

01:21:54.940 make now

01:21:55.540 and for parents

01:21:56.560 as well

01:21:56.960 it's like

01:21:57.520 you know

01:21:59.080 we talk

01:21:59.620 we talk all

01:22:00.480 because we're

01:22:00.960 in this world

01:22:01.880 of culture

01:22:02.400 and politics

01:22:02.900 and whatever

01:22:03.260 we talk all the

01:22:03.920 time about policy

01:22:04.960 yeah

01:22:05.520 and because of that

01:22:06.380 we neglect the fact

01:22:07.300 that your child

01:22:08.380 doesn't have to be

01:22:09.220 banned from social

01:22:10.080 media by the

01:22:10.720 government

01:22:11.000 yeah

01:22:11.520 you are their parent

01:22:13.200 if you don't want

01:22:14.380 them to be on

01:22:14.860 social media

01:22:15.480 you're the parent

01:22:17.520 like

01:22:18.220 also

01:22:18.920 you know

01:22:19.500 I want

01:22:19.960 the main hope

01:22:22.360 with the book

01:22:22.900 is to convince

01:22:23.680 young people

01:22:24.140 not to want

01:22:24.720 to do it

01:22:25.160 themselves

01:22:25.780 right

01:22:26.160 so not to want

01:22:27.460 to watch porn

01:22:28.140 rather than having

01:22:28.860 to have

01:22:29.400 legal change

01:22:30.420 and I think

01:22:32.240 it really helps

01:22:33.100 actually to lay

01:22:33.960 it all out

01:22:34.480 so often writing

01:22:35.540 it I thought

01:22:36.180 some of this

01:22:37.160 has been said

01:22:37.580 before

01:22:37.960 but then having

01:22:39.040 it all together

01:22:39.800 when you've grown

01:22:41.100 up in this stuff

01:22:41.760 you're so immersed

01:22:42.740 in it

01:22:42.980 you actually

01:22:43.420 can't see 0.98

01:22:43.840 how ridiculous 0.99

01:22:44.260 it is 0.97

01:22:44.660 when you write

01:22:45.900 out some

01:22:46.540 of the examples

01:22:47.160 of like the

01:22:47.600 BetterHelp ads

01:22:48.400 and the family

01:22:49.140 vloggers

01:22:49.640 you're able

01:22:50.940 to zoom out

01:22:51.760 and laugh at it

01:22:53.300 and I think

01:22:54.080 this is what

01:22:55.340 younger generations

01:22:56.240 haven't had

01:22:56.740 they haven't had

01:22:57.240 again

01:22:57.620 the context

01:22:58.760 because this

01:22:59.760 all happened

01:23:00.340 as the only world

01:23:01.840 they've ever known

01:23:02.760 and so it really

01:23:04.140 helps to just

01:23:04.920 see everything

01:23:05.920 together

01:23:06.280 and then you can

01:23:06.860 make an informed

01:23:07.500 decision

01:23:08.140 and you've also

01:23:09.120 got to have faith

01:23:09.740 with people as well

01:23:10.600 which you look

01:23:12.060 at every movement

01:23:13.700 whether it's

01:23:14.480 wokeism or whatever

01:23:15.200 it may be

01:23:15.720 there's always

01:23:16.800 going to be a bad

01:23:17.380 question

01:23:17.720 there's always

01:23:18.480 going to be a push

01:23:19.020 back again

01:23:19.460 so I think

01:23:20.220 with what we're

01:23:20.740 seeing with AI

01:23:21.360 and everybody

01:23:22.640 being super online

01:23:23.700 and everybody

01:23:24.380 and most people

01:23:25.680 not enjoying

01:23:26.840 being online

01:23:27.440 as much as they

01:23:28.220 are

01:23:28.480 or as much

01:23:29.180 as they pretend

01:23:29.700 to be

01:23:30.080 I think you're

01:23:30.960 going to see

01:23:31.440 a kind of

01:23:32.100 neo-luddite

01:23:33.040 movement

01:23:33.560 like the hipster

01:23:34.620 movement

01:23:35.000 but on steroids

01:23:36.000 as a result

01:23:37.120 of all of this

01:23:37.720 stuff

01:23:38.020 well I think

01:23:38.900 it's over half

01:23:39.760 or nearly half

01:23:41.060 of Gen Z

01:23:41.500 adults wish

01:23:42.140 social media

01:23:42.700 was never

01:23:43.120 invented

01:23:43.480 which

01:23:44.440 you don't

01:23:45.480 really get

01:23:45.800 with any

01:23:46.260 other

01:23:46.720 invention

01:23:47.660 you don't

01:23:48.060 really hear

01:23:48.380 that from

01:23:48.740 other generations

01:23:49.360 about radio

01:23:50.300 or TV

01:23:50.940 it's quite unique

01:23:52.800 I think

01:23:53.300 this generation

01:23:54.200 has nostalgia

01:23:55.020 for a time

01:23:55.700 that they

01:23:56.180 never knew

01:23:56.800 whereas I

01:23:57.960 talk to

01:23:58.260 older generations

01:23:59.120 every single

01:23:59.860 one of them

01:24:00.180 says to me

01:24:00.500 I'm so glad

01:24:01.120 I was born

01:24:01.620 when I was

01:24:02.080 oh it was so great

01:24:02.520 yeah

01:24:02.880 it was so great

01:24:03.760 but have you

01:24:04.480 ever heard

01:24:05.020 a Gen Z 0.71

01:24:05.560 person saying

01:24:06.340 I'm so glad

01:24:07.420 I was born

01:24:07.760 in the 2010s

01:24:08.740 no

01:24:08.980 with Instagram

01:24:10.080 and Facetune

01:24:10.720 and Pornhub

01:24:11.520 and all these

01:24:11.920 things

01:24:12.080 you don't

01:24:12.440 hear it

01:24:12.900 and you

01:24:13.400 actually have

01:24:14.180 young people

01:24:16.060 like lamenting

01:24:17.980 about the loss

01:24:18.480 of their childhood

01:24:19.180 when they're

01:24:19.700 still a child

01:24:20.420 and so it's

01:24:21.980 a very different

01:24:22.780 thing and I

01:24:23.340 think hopefully

01:24:24.480 we'll take that

01:24:25.140 into our own

01:24:25.920 parenting

01:24:26.560 and maybe

01:24:28.120 my generation

01:24:28.680 has been

01:24:29.000 wounded enough

01:24:29.840 that this will

01:24:30.260 not happen

01:24:30.940 again

01:24:31.240 yeah

01:24:31.880 well here's

01:24:32.700 hope

01:24:32.940 yeah

01:24:33.660 Fred

01:24:34.260 congratulations

01:24:35.180 on your success

01:24:36.500 I hope you get

01:24:37.240 your message out

01:24:37.880 to way more people

01:24:38.740 we're always delighted

01:24:39.420 to have you on

01:24:40.040 we're going to go

01:24:41.400 to Substack

01:24:42.000 where we're going

01:24:42.680 to ask you

01:24:43.040 questions from

01:24:43.580 our supporters

01:24:44.060 but before we do

01:24:44.760 what's the one thing

01:24:45.380 we're not talking

01:24:46.140 about that we

01:24:46.600 really should be

01:24:47.160 I think

01:24:48.300 it'll have to be

01:24:49.240 the mental health

01:24:49.880 industry

01:24:50.420 we talked about

01:24:51.280 a lot today

01:24:51.820 but I think

01:24:53.540 we're really

01:24:54.140 going to look back

01:24:54.900 with regret

01:24:55.700 that we put girls 0.85

01:24:56.740 through all of this

01:24:57.620 and then we

01:24:58.040 diagnose them

01:24:58.740 when they couldn't

01:24:59.520 cope

01:24:59.840 and boys as well

01:25:01.320 I think

01:25:01.980 there's a lot

01:25:03.020 of people

01:25:03.680 who are sort

01:25:04.140 of understandably

01:25:05.720 outraged at the

01:25:06.980 trans phenomenon

01:25:07.700 and the surgeries

01:25:10.200 and the hormones

01:25:10.960 and the kind of

01:25:11.980 cruelty and confusion

01:25:13.080 that we put

01:25:13.660 young people through

01:25:14.500 I think that's

01:25:16.440 part of a bigger story

01:25:17.660 and the bigger story

01:25:18.540 is the internalisation

01:25:20.360 and medicalisation

01:25:21.320 of girls' distress

01:25:22.700 and so I think

01:25:24.240 we need to start

01:25:24.840 seeing the mental

01:25:26.040 health industry

01:25:26.600 as an industry

01:25:27.360 and as something

01:25:28.240 to protect girls from 1.00

01:25:29.820 Fantastic stuff

01:25:31.900 thank you so much

01:25:32.640 for coming on the show

01:25:33.380 join us on Substack

01:25:35.400 as we carry on

01:25:36.160 the conversation

01:25:36.780 and you get to ask

01:25:37.660 for your questions

01:25:38.640 Girls have always 1.00

01:25:41.960 been conformist

01:25:42.820 but is it now

01:25:43.460 harder than ever

01:25:44.200 to go against the crowd

01:25:45.240 for example

01:25:45.780 being a tomboy

01:25:46.580 or just not watching

01:25:47.980 the latest in show

01:25:49.440 Broadway's smash hit

01:26:05.100 the Neil Diamond musical

01:26:06.420 A Beautiful Noise

01:26:07.760 is coming to Toronto

01:26:09.260 the true story

01:26:10.280 of a kid from Brooklyn

01:26:11.360 destined for something more

01:26:12.880 featuring all the songs

01:26:14.020 you love

01:26:14.640 including America

01:26:15.780 Forever in Blue Jeans

01:26:17.100 and Sweet Caroline

01:26:18.300 like Jersey Boys 0.86

01:26:19.740 and Beautiful

01:26:20.360 the next musical

01:26:21.540 mega hit is here

01:26:22.660 the Neil Diamond musical

01:26:24.180 A Beautiful Noise

01:26:25.520 April 28th

01:26:26.580 through June 7th

01:26:27.580 2026

01:26:28.540 the Princess of Wales Theatre

01:26:30.140 get tickets at

01:26:31.300 murvish.com

TRIGGERnometry - February 25, 2026

How the Internet Ruins Young People - Freya India

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