00:03:12.000So the book is all age-old anxieties that every generation of women has felt.
00:03:17.000So it's like how you look, how you feel, your relationships, everything.
00:03:21.000But it's all been magnified now until it's unmanageable.
00:03:26.000And then it's more sinister than that.
00:03:27.000It's actually been exploited by all of these industries and companies.
00:03:32.000And so, yeah, I think other generations of women would say they've been objectified or treated like a product.
00:03:39.000But I think this is like the core experience of girls today is commodification.
00:03:45.000So every experience of growing up, whether it's, you know, dealing with your developing body or going on your first date, it's all commodified and intruded upon by the market.
00:03:58.000Like, what does that mean, commodified?
00:04:00.000Well, so you're constantly marketing and selling yourself.
00:04:03.000So all through adolescence, you're performing obsessively analyzing your metrics and then your self-worth is determined by your ratings and reviews online.
00:04:14.000But this is happening from maybe age 12.
00:04:18.000Let's say you're on Instagram at age 12.
00:04:20.000Then your entire experience of growing up is packaging yourself up for Instagram, you know, displaying yourself on a dating app like a product.
00:04:29.000Or, and then in your twenties, turning yourself into a personal brand that has to be monitored and managed all the time.
00:04:36.000And so I think the difference today is other women were relentlessly sold products and procedures, but we are the product.
00:04:46.000It's very interesting you say that because when I was reading the book, I remembered this scene in Bowling for Columbine, the documentary by Michael Moore, where they interviewed Marilyn Manson.
00:04:57.000And he was going, our entire consumer culture is based on fear.
00:05:27.000If you have bad breath, they're not going to talk to you.
00:05:29.000If you've got pimples, the girl's not going to fuck you.
00:05:32.000And it's just this, it's a campaign of fear and consumption.
00:05:36.000And that's what I think that it's all based on is the whole idea that keep everyone afraid and they'll consume.
00:05:43.000Yeah, it's, and also if you are online, that's what the algorithms pick up on very quickly is fear and insecurity and vulnerability.
00:05:53.000So companies like Facebook will even track if, you know, a user uses a word like worthless or insecure and then send them an ad.
00:06:02.000If a girl deletes a selfie, Facebook will send her an advert for a beauty product.
00:06:08.000And this is the issue with social media is it will pick up on any small insecurity or vulnerability you have immediately and then serve you more of it.
00:06:18.000And this is the problem, particularly with adolescent girls, is that it's such a vulnerable time that you don't really have the same amount of agency or discernment to deal with it.
00:06:29.000It's just, you will feel something, you'll look at it longer and then it will get out of control very quickly.
00:06:34.000Because there's a lot of conservatives who will be like, oh, well, you know, you need to take responsibility, etc, etc.
00:06:40.000And when I hear them, I go, number one, you're male. Number two, you're in your 50s.
00:06:46.000That's very different from being a 13 year old girl who's going through puberty and suffering quite a lot of distress as a result of that.
00:06:57.000Yeah. I mean, how does a 12 year old girl compete against billion dollar industries who are working on making you addicted all the time and have all of the tools and technology to do it and AI it now?
00:07:09.000I think it's just, Jonathan Haidt talks about it, it's just such a vulnerable age that basically, if you're a parent, if you can keep your child off before 16, it's before that when it's really dangerous.
00:07:24.000Because also that's when your self-esteem is forming. That's when your view of men and women is forming.
00:07:29.000That's when a lot of your brain is developing and a lot of your worldview. And so if we can keep them off in that stage, I think it's critical.
00:07:36.000And what makes you vulnerable at that age, particularly, you know, a lot of people will either not have experience being an early teen girl or just forget what it's like or whatever.
00:07:48.000What makes young people and young girls especially so vulnerable?
00:07:52.000I think you're acutely aware of your reputation.
00:07:56.000So social media is all about your reputation and you being ranked and reviewed and publicly measured against other people.
00:08:05.000So you're going through puberty and you're getting feedback on your developing body and your face and your life.
00:08:15.000So you're getting your memories, you're marketing your memories and then getting feedback from that, just like a product.
00:08:22.000And I think at that time is really when you develop your sense of self and your sense of self-worth.
00:08:28.000And so I think if you're a particularly anxious girl who doesn't perform well on social media, it kind of sets how you view yourself going forward.
00:08:39.000Because, you know, at such a vulnerable time, you're being told you're lesser than your friends or, and it's also being displayed to everybody all the time.
00:08:49.000So I say in the book, a lot of these things were things that you can't take down or delete.
00:08:55.000They're happening without your control. So I talk about Ask.fm. Do you know Ask.fm?
00:09:00.000So this was like a big part of my childhood where you could ask and answer anonymous questions.
00:09:06.000So it'd be people at your school asking questions like, who is the ugliest girl or rank who has the worst body.
00:09:14.000And then your name can be put on that and there's nothing you can do to take it down.
00:09:18.000And if you think about young girls, they ruminate way more than young boys.
00:09:23.000This is, so if they're distressed, they go inwards.
00:09:27.000And that can be anxiety or eating disorders or self-harm.
00:09:32.000And maybe in the past, someone says a comment at school and you ruminate over it.
00:09:37.000But now you can go back to it. You can keep looking at it.
00:09:40.000And I think this was the thing that really damaged my generation is that it's a public ranking of you and it's inescapable.
00:09:51.000And also as well with the social media, because I remember when I started teaching, it was 2007 I started training, then 2008 when I was in schools properly.
00:10:01.000And that's when Facebook became much more prevalent.
00:10:05.000And obviously things are worse now with Instagram.
00:10:07.000But one of the things we noticed with Facebook was bullying, especially between girls, skyrocketing.
00:10:14.000Yeah. Well, I think girls, we use indirect forms of aggression, which will be reputation destruction.
00:10:23.000And this is a theme throughout the book is that, you know, we're not only turning into products, but we're looking at each other like we're products as well.
00:10:31.000Treating other people like objects, ranking and reviewing them.
00:10:35.000And you lose your sense, not only that you're fully human, that other people are fully human as well.
00:10:41.000And so you're judging, you're growing up judging other young girls on how many likes they get, how many followers they have.
00:10:48.000And you can go after their reputation by, say, posting an unflattering photo of them on Facebook that they can't take down.
00:10:56.000Or you can go after their reputation by, you know, attacking them because they haven't posted the Black Lives Matter square and they have offensive opinions.
00:11:06.000And it's all public. And so I think the reputation destruction that used to happen on playgrounds is now happening online and then getting recommended to other children by algorithms.
00:11:18.000And because what people don't understand, and you'll know better than anyone, is young girls and young boys, particularly those who are pubescent, prepubescent, their brains aren't developed.
00:11:30.000There have been a lot of studies shown that below the age of 14, boys in particular, they've got no ability to conceptualize consequences.
00:11:39.000And you see that so often in schools where an 11-year-old boy pushes another one, the boy falls over, hurts himself, starts crying.
00:11:45.000And the enraged teacher will say to the boy who pushed the other one, why did you do that?
00:11:49.000And he will always do the same thing. He'll shrug his shoulders because he couldn't comprehend that.
00:11:55.000And we know that they're developing. We know their brains aren't fully developed, yet we give them this technology.
00:12:00.000And then we're shocked when it creates all this havoc.
00:12:03.000Yeah, and I think it's quite cruel that we give them a technology that is for adults, essentially.
00:12:10.000And they haven't formed their opinions yet. They haven't formed a sense of self-worth and who they are.
00:12:16.000So when you're young, you're experimenting and you're figuring all of that out.
00:12:19.000And then we give them a technology that never forgets anything.
00:12:23.000And also on social media, you have to categorize yourself or it will categorize you for you.
00:12:31.000But you have to list your features like a product. You have to list the things you're interested in.
00:12:36.000And you have girls doing that, say, 12, 13, and then they change a lot.
00:12:41.000And then it becomes really difficult to change.
00:12:43.000So let's say at 13, you're convinced you have a mental health problem.
00:12:48.000And you go down the rabbit hole of all the mental health videos.
00:12:50.000And you have an account that's all about your mental health issue.
00:12:53.000You might not want that when you're 20, but you're already categorized.
00:12:58.000And then I think this is also the cruelty of cancel culture and holding people to account for opinions they had at 12.
00:13:07.000The statuses they posted. Because you're young and the whole point is that you make mistakes and you figure this out.
00:13:13.000But we're having to market and brand ourselves from like age 12.
00:13:18.000And then we're changing and we're having to then market that change.
00:13:22.000And then people say to you, oh, you're different now.
00:13:24.000Or we've got evidence that you were different, you know, five years ago.
00:13:28.000It's so cruel that we're not giving children that freedom to figure out who they are.
00:13:33.000You know what, I would be terrified to be a young person who had opinion, like who did what I do now, but at the age of 25.
00:13:54.000And when you're 25, like Frances said, when you're 25, you don't, as a man, especially, you don't think about consequences particularly.
00:14:00.000You haven't thought everything through.
00:14:02.000You're full of testosterone, whatever it is.
00:14:04.000You're trying to make a mark in the world.
00:14:06.000You're saying all this dumb shit that people are going to hold against you forever.
00:14:10.000And most importantly, you then also probably feel like, like you said, you have to like, almost like you have to stand on this lie that's no longer true about you.
00:14:21.000You said it, so like, okay, fine, fuck you all, I'm just going to stand here and I'm going to defend this thing that I said 10 years ago.
00:15:54.000And so, you're seeing people, like, putting more care and attention into their Twitter than maybe doing a longer project, like a book.
00:16:02.000Because you have to hide away, to some extent.
00:16:05.000And what are your, I mean, one of the big conversations that's been had in recent times is dating and sex lives of younger people, which is like they're not having as much sex as they used to.
00:16:16.000Dating seems to be more of a challenge.
00:16:18.000What are your thoughts on the impact of all of this on that aspect of life for young people?
00:16:23.000Yeah, I think the main theme I sort of noticed in the book is risk aversion among young women in terms of dating and relationships.
00:16:31.000And it's funny because I think a lot of the time we get told, we get told the problem is something that's not true anymore.
00:16:39.000So, a lot of people think the problem is women being too dependent on men.
00:16:44.000Whereas really, for my generation, the problem is women being very risk averse, scared of, and even having contempt for men.
00:16:52.000But a lot of the dating advice is about how to stay independent and, you know, not lose yourself in a relationship.
00:16:58.000And then the other dating advice we get is, you know, the pressure to settle down, how to deal with that pressure.
00:17:06.000But people are asking, when are you having children and when are you getting married?
00:17:09.000And I see that all the time, even though I've never experienced it.
00:17:13.000In my experience, it's always been pressure to stay single.
00:17:17.000And it's scrutiny if you want to settle down too young.
00:17:20.000And so I think a lot of the dating advice hasn't caught up to our main issue, which is risk aversion.
00:17:27.000So if you go on hashtag relationships on TikTok, it's all red flags, what to watch out for, signs that he's a narcissist, signs he's going to cheat on you.
00:17:39.000And the sad part is, you have girls watching that who have not even kissed a boy yet, or held a boy's hand.
00:17:48.000And they're being overwhelmed by the opinions of professionals and sometimes wounded adults telling them to be fearful and risk averse.
00:18:01.000You have sort of the manosphere influencer guys saying, you know, don't ever be too vulnerable, be an alpha male.
00:18:08.000And then you have, say, a therapy influencer saying, don't ever be vulnerable, be an independent woman, set boundaries.
00:18:16.000And so I think it's for boys and girls.
00:18:19.000They're having their view of relationships distorted by scrolling through the opinions of adults too young.
00:18:26.000And, you know, there's a lot of good stuff on there as well.
00:18:29.000There are people giving great advice, but I imagine, you know, a lot of the time that great advice doesn't just just doesn't go as viral as the bad advice.
00:18:40.000Because it doesn't hit the same sweet spot of like combination of outrage and offensiveness and also like whatever else it might be.
00:18:47.000Yeah, the incentives are completely wrong.
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00:21:18.000Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything.
00:21:48.000So the incentive of a relationship influencer is to grab your attention immediately, which will be, you know, don't do this in your relationship or it will explode or five signs he's cheating on you right now.
00:22:03.000And it's got to get an emotion like fear, anxiety.
00:22:06.000But it's interesting because another place people often get advice is Reddit.
00:22:11.000So online forums, they'll ask for relationship advice.
00:22:14.000And there was this graph done of all of the relationship advice on Reddit for like the last decade.
00:22:21.000The least popular answer that Reddit users gave was compromise.
00:23:03.000It was Scott Galloway, former guest on the show, made a great point on social media, which is the social media companies found something better to monetize than sex.
00:23:15.000And when you look at most social media, well, after I saw Scott's, that clip from Scott, and I looked through social media, I'm like, oh, this is just all rage.
00:23:24.000I mean, there's female rage, there's male rage, there's young rage, there's old rage.
00:23:40.000Well, I think as well, to reiterate the point, when you're slightly older, you have context and you have a level of discernment to say this is mental.
00:23:50.000And I think, you know, for my generation, I mean, I've got a phone at 11 and it wasn't as bad for me because I talk about the algorithms and how they were gradually introduced.
00:24:01.000But now you're seeing all that rage about the world before you've even experienced the world.
00:24:06.000So you have young people getting advice before they've even lived.
00:24:12.000So if we talk about relationship advice, you can scroll through Twitter and say, always move in with someone before marriage.
00:24:19.000And then the next tweet is, don't ever move in with someone before marriage.
00:24:22.000You know, you have people like so passionate and sure that this is the way.
00:24:29.000And I think the sad thing is, it's a lot of people thinking that you can protect yourself from vulnerability and the possibility of getting hurt.
00:24:38.000And then you have a generation who has grown up in this sort of safetyism culture who have been infantilized and are maybe prone to risk aversion.
00:24:50.000And then they're scrolling through people who are warning them all the time or raging about the state of the world.
00:24:56.000And they have no life experience to put that in.
00:25:00.000And then you add on top that a lot of these kids come from broken homes.
00:25:24.000And that's a big theme of the book is that we lost a lot of things.
00:25:28.000And online we have substitutes and simulations for them.
00:25:32.000But my generation don't realize that we're simulating something because we've forgotten what we had in the first place.
00:25:38.000So something like Instagram they think is a community because they've never experienced a community or neighbors.
00:25:45.000Or instead of going out with friends, they watch influencers.
00:25:49.000Or instead of speaking to their parents about relationships, they scroll through relationship TikTok or go on relationship Reddit forums.
00:25:57.000Forgetting that this is a bad replacement for something that did exist before.
00:26:02.000And I think it actually helped to write the book because I realized how many things in my life were these sort of substitutes that had been sold to me for something that has broken down, whether it's community or family.
00:26:19.000I feel like for my generation, a lot of our parents thought it's not their place to give advice.
00:26:26.000So it's just imposing their worldview if they do that.
00:26:31.000And, you know, they thought, you know, that's the nice way to be is to be neutral and not tell young people right and wrong.
00:26:37.000Then you have young people desperately searching through relationship TikTok and it's got hundreds of millions of views because they want some guidance and direction and to know what right and wrong is.
00:26:48.000So I think a lot of these trends that are popular, it's helpful to think what are young people actually looking for and maybe what has been lost in the first place.
00:26:56.000And it's as well, this idea of, and I've seen it so often with parents when I was teaching, they would be like, you know, we just want our kids to be free.
00:27:03.000You know, I don't want them growing up in a restrictive, repressive environment.
00:27:07.000And you're going there going, I think that's why the kid is literally climbing the walls as we speak, is that he's got too much freedom, if anything.
00:27:15.000Yeah. And also, you can be nice and neutral, but the world is not neutral.
00:27:20.000So if you step back, my argument is companies will step in.
00:27:24.000So if you don't teach your daughter what she's worth, Instagram will.
00:27:29.000If you don't teach her about relationships, then Pornhub will.
00:27:34.000And so I think a lot of parents did it with good intentions, but they didn't realize that, you know, the world will impose its own values.
00:27:42.000You know, progressive values that always change, sexual values that become more permissive.
00:27:47.000There will always be arbiters of right and wrong.
00:27:49.000And for a lot of young people, unfortunately, it's companies and influencers.
00:27:53.000Well, you're so right about the gap being filled.
00:27:56.000And it's interesting you say, you know, both parents and education, but both of you make this point, have sort of stepped back from their responsibility.
00:28:03.000If you think about it, like as a parent, I can tell you my first thought is, I have to prepare this child for the world.
00:28:11.000That means I have to, to the best of my ability, which is limited and my wife's ability, which is limited, give them an understanding of how the world actually works and how you can operate in that world with maximum happiness, effectiveness, whatever it is that I'm optimizing for, right?
00:28:36.000So there's a, there's a balance in the past.
00:28:37.000People would, would push so hard on their kids.
00:28:39.000There's a balance to be struck there, but this voluntary abandonment of parental and adult responsibility combined then with this super powerful technology just seems to have created a complete disaster.
00:28:54.000I think we, we undermined any form of authority.
00:28:57.000Um, so I think a lot of parents don't give guidance, but then I actually think not only companies have filled the gap, but they directly advertise, we will give you guidance.
00:29:07.000And so I talk about therapy companies in the book, like BetterHelp Talkspace, who have gone now to advertising themselves like parents.
00:29:16.000So not only do they say stuff like, we're so proud of you, we love you, like on their Instagram and their adverts, but they directly say, you know, we will guide you through all of the exam stresses, you know, dealing with your developing body, all of these things that parents used to give you advice and direction for.
00:29:34.000We're now telling a generation that they need professional help and intervention for these things.
00:29:39.000And it's, you can't help but think it's quite sinister when you look at the actual adverts for say BetterHelp where, uh, they have this series of adverts where the dad will say something like, oh, maybe you should get out and have a walk in the sun.
00:29:53.000And the daughter will just be looking at the camera like what, and it will come up, that's unhelpful.
00:30:10.000And then they have ones with friends where there's a talk space ad where a girl and a young guy are walking and she's like, oh, do you want to talk about your crush or how your maths test went?
00:30:21.000And he's like, I don't want to talk about it.
00:30:24.000And she's like, why don't you text your therapist instead?
00:30:26.000It's an advert for their unlimited messaging therapy where you text a therapist.
00:30:31.000And so there's this really sinister thing happening where you have companies offering guidance and direction, but also basically saying your friends and family are unhelpful because they're not professionals.
00:30:44.000There's no way they could help you with relationships because they don't know.
00:30:48.000And so we kind of always encourage young people to be less close to their family, you know, to set boundaries, not burden them with their problems, but then get closer and closer to professionals.
00:31:01.000It comes back to the point that France has made.
00:31:04.000And I know that you focus very heavily on the corporate exploitation of all this stuff.
00:31:08.000And I agree with you that companies will exploit all this stuff.
00:31:12.000But I also think in a way, a lot of it is just filling a void that exists because of what society has become.
00:31:19.000Like, I remember somebody who I don't need to name, who said a long time ago, I think it was like when Jordan Peterson was first breaking through.
00:31:27.000And she was like, yeah, you know, I've never been interested in Jordan because I had a good dad.
00:31:30.000And it was a dismissive, like, backhander to him, which I, you know, I like Jordan very much.
00:31:36.000So I kind of initially, but then I realized in some ways she's saying something very true, which is a lot of societies is looking for like someone to tell them how to live their life, basically.
00:31:48.000And when Jordan broke through, he broke through because nobody was doing that for generations.
00:31:53.000And then, you know, unfortunately, I always go like you can chronicle the decline of civilization by the type of influence that fills that void.
00:32:01.440So you went like from Jordan to Andrew Tate to God knows what the next one of that's going to be.
00:32:07.380But ultimately, what for men that is, is somebody to tell them how to live their life and also how not to feel downtrodden by society that's become very rhetorically anti-male.
00:32:18.540Yeah, I think this is why I try and talk with sympathy for my generation and younger, because I think we can lose all context where, and as you said at the beginning with conservatives kind of saying, oh, you know, you need personal agency and stuff.
00:32:33.400I think you have to remember what my generation has never known.
00:32:37.700So, for example, maybe we've never known kissing a boy before we've seen violent videos on Pornhub, or we've never known friendship before it became, you know, posting your friend like a prop on Instagram or sending, getting a Snapchat streak with someone.
00:32:54.840Again, we've never had the freedom to grow up clumsily.
00:34:11.220I was painfully shy when I was younger.
00:34:13.180But I felt like I wouldn't exist if I wasn't posting selfies on Instagram or trying to sort of endlessly prove my existence like everyone else's.
00:34:23.220And I think for my generation, it's even worse for girls because we grew up with Facetune editing apps.
00:34:30.740And for the next generation, like AI beauty filters.
00:34:34.080So the app Facetune, I spoke about it last time I was on.
00:34:38.740And it's gotten even worse to the point now where they have a friendly, literally called a friendly AI assistant, where you ask the AI what you want to look like and it will just do it for you.
00:34:49.420So we would have to go in and like edit our body and edit our faces by hand.
00:34:54.800Whereas now you just ask and it will just give you a curvier body or transform your face.
00:35:00.220Then you post that on Instagram and you get attention and validation for that.
00:35:04.900It does better than an unfiltered, unedited picture.
00:35:07.900And then you develop dysphoria and you can't see your true self anymore.
00:35:15.120You can just see, you can kind of click this undo button where suddenly it goes back to the original you and it honestly looks deformed.
00:35:25.500And I, it took, I was doing that all through my teenage years and it's taken me years to not, like enjoy having a photo taken or allow a photo to be taken of me.
00:35:37.920Because that contrast between the filtered me and the real me just felt horrifying.
00:35:43.040And I feel we can very easily get into like blaming parents, shaming parents.
00:35:49.620But I think we also need to have a lot of empathy for parents.
00:35:52.000It's like when you talk about face tube, I've got no idea.
00:35:55.220And I'm, and then to a lot of parents, they had no idea of the tech.
00:36:00.940They had no idea what was actually happening.
00:36:03.420And more importantly, nobody really had an idea about the long-term consequences of this stuff.
00:36:09.140And by the way, if you gave your kids a phone in 2007, you were not giving them the phone, like the word is still the same, but the, the thing is completely different.
00:36:21.740A phone 15 years ago and on a phone today, totally different ballgame.
00:36:26.380Well, I got a phone when it was, so the social media apps were in chronological order.
00:36:31.500So it was whoever posted in the order that they posted.
00:36:35.080And then it changed to algorithms where it was then dependent on what you lingered over, what you watched twice, any emotional reaction you had to something.
00:36:46.040My mom didn't know that they changed the algorithm.
00:37:32.120So when I was younger, if you sort of waved your hand in front of your face, it would glitch off.
00:37:36.900But now you can film a whole video of yourself as someone else using AI.
00:37:42.220Because when I was growing up, and this was also happened 20 years ago because of the tabloid press, more and more parents, understandably so, were concerned about safety.
00:38:25.840And then I got to the end and I was like, it's actually two things happening at once where we're infantilized, but we're also forced to grow up very fast.
00:38:33.600And so you have adult expectations on young people at the same time as they're being infantilized.
00:38:40.100So you have girls worrying about wrinkles before they're through puberty, literally.
00:38:46.200Then you have girls thinking their normal emotions are serious disorders and diagnosis, and they can tell you all about these disorders at a very young age.
00:38:56.980Then you have girls expected to have fully formed political opinions that they can post online and represent and defend before they've even left home.
00:39:07.000So you have that conflict all the time.
00:39:10.940You have like a hustle culture online, but then you have a helicopter parent at home.
00:39:15.700And then you have these really weird contradictions where adults' TV shows will become infantilized, but kids' TV shows will become sexualized.
00:39:24.700And so you have a really confusing time for young people where they're being treated like adults in some sense, but then they're going through this extended adolescence at the same time.
00:39:35.240So I think what happens is they have the adult pressure, but with none of the life experience or resilience to actually process and handle it.
00:39:43.680I don't know about you, but I love my work and I get super focused, which means sometimes I suddenly realize I'm hungry and a little bit angry, which is what tends to happen when I'm hungry.
00:39:53.560That's why I've been keeping Huel Black Edition around the studio here to stop myself from getting carried away.
00:39:59.380On the days I'm sprinting out the door, I grab a Black Edition ready to drink.
00:40:03.220It's a complete meal, 35 grams of protein, 7 grams of fiber, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no artificial sweeteners, and it's just under $5, which is kind of amazing because it's cheaper than a latte and actually keeps me full for hours.
00:40:16.940And I know what you're asking, does it taste good?