How Wokeness is Destroying the British Army - Steven Edginton
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 6 minutes
Words per minute
194.39874
Harmful content
Misogyny
18
sentences flagged
Toxicity
22
sentences flagged
Hate speech
17
sentences flagged
Summary
In this week's episode, we're joined by journalist and author Stephen Jenkinson to talk about the deep-rooted problem of ideological bias within the British civil service and government. Stephen has been reporting on the issue for years, and now he's taking it to the highest levels of Whitehall and the military.
Transcript
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The Army are relaxing security checks for non-UK recruits to boost diversity in the Army Intelligence and Officer Corps.
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Now, obviously, there are obvious problems with this.
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So, for example, the Armed Forces' non-binary policy said that.
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And they do have, of course, they've got to have a non-binary policy.
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So, this has infected every single level of the top hierarchy.
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And I think that only under a Labour government, likely going to come in later this year, this is going to get worse before it gets better.
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So, we're glad to have you before because you've been doing some actually really important work, I feel, revealing a lot of the takeover of our institutions from the inside.
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You've been talking to whistleblowers in the military and the civil service.
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Tell us a little bit about that because I found it absolutely fascinating, frankly, also quite terrifying.
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Yeah, so this has been a subject I've been focused on actually for a few years now.
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And it all started when I was a journalist during the kind of post-Brexit debates.
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And there was a lot of accusations against the civil service and civil servants that they were anti-Brexit.
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And I was interested in finding out whether there was any truth to that, whether this was under ministers' instructions like Theresa May.
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And there were famous examples of civil servants like Ollie Robbins, who was one of our negotiators during the Brexit years,
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who was accused of basically being a Remainer and undermining the British negotiating position.
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So, I started to speak to civil servants through various friends, contacts in Westminster, to find out whether, as I said, there's any truth in this idea that the civil service was biased against Brexit.
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And I started to build up a dossier of evidence and did a bit of freelance reporting for various different newspapers on this subject.
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And I think what I found was quite interesting.
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I think there was a sort of strain of anti-Brexit feeling within the civil service.
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So, what you've got to remember is that Whitehall is in Whitehall, it's in London.
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You know, so civil servants are definitely going to skew towards that liberal, metropolitan, Remain perspective.
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And whether they can hold those views and remain impartial is one thing, but I don't think that they were doing that.
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And I think, to an extent, that did impact the negotiations.
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You definitely had civil servants, particularly in the Foreign Office and in the Department for Existing the European Union,
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who felt ideologically that Brexit was a mistake and they approached the whole project with the wrong mindset.
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They didn't see it as something where there may be positive, something that Britain can take advantage of.
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And I think we've seen that in things like the outcome in terms of immigration policy.
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We've seen massive increases in immigration over the last few years.
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I think that's partly down to civil servants, but also you have to, of course, blame ministers for that as well.
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So, this kind of interest in Brexit and how that had impacted the civil service really led on to, I suppose, years really of reporting
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and sort of having contacts within various different departments across Whitehall, who suddenly were starting to send me things not about Brexit anymore,
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but about wokeism, about issues of transgenderism and critical race theory infecting different parts of Whitehall.
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And in the last few years, during these kind of cultural debates, unfortunately, those institutions, which are taxpayer funded,
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which legally have to be politically neutral, have to be impartial, cannot take a political view,
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have unfortunately been taken over by ideological zealots from, as I say, the trans debates, the sort of pro-trans argument,
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and also since 2020, the Black Lives Matter critical race theory ideologues.
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And I've been doing a lot of reporting on those issues since.
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Well, that's all great, but give us some meat on the bone, because people will listen to that who maybe don't agree with you.
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By the way, you're talking to two Remain voters, so it's kind of like those are talking points.
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Because that's where I actually was very keen to speak with you,
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because what you were revealing was very, very interesting in terms of what people were telling you.
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So to give you some specifics on the woke stuff, which is the more recent reporting,
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and you mentioned the armed forces to begin with.
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So this was an investigation I did over a matter of weeks with various different sources within the MOD,
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across the forces, sending me internal documents, policy papers,
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and kind of posters and other bits of evidence to do with diversity and inclusion.
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And in the last few years, the MOD have become obsessed with diversity and DEI as an ideology.
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They view it as important for operational effectiveness.
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This is a direct quote from the head of the armed forces, General Sir Patrick Sanders.
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And they also view diversity as important in terms of their recruitment targets,
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because they see that basically the armed forces have a massive recruitment problem
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where not enough people are joining the forces.
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And they think that this is partly because it's not a welcoming place for ethnic minorities,
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So in order to solve these problems as they see it,
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they've instigated a series of policies, which we revealed in the Telegraph.
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The worst, I think, of these policies was the fact that the army are relaxing security checks
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for non-UK recruits to boost diversity in the army intelligence and officer corps.
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Now, obviously, there are obvious problems with this.
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Yeah, well, we had the former head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove,
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saying that this really could undermine national security.
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And the reason these checks are in place is because we don't want extremists,
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frankly, Islamic extremists on the most part, and to an extent, other types of extremists,
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having access to what they call, and this is an exact quote, again,
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They would have access to uncontrolled state secret assets in the intelligence and officer corps.
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And those are the areas where they wanted to relax security checks in order to boost diversity.
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So that was probably the most egregious policy that I found.
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Other things to mention very briefly, in terms of acts of remembrance on Armistice Day,
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a very important cultural event for England, for Britain as a nation,
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particularly for the armed forces, for soldiers,
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they said that those events should be non-religious.
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And for Britain, which has been a historically Christian nation,
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and for the armed forces, particularly in World War I,
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where you see all those crosses in Flanders fields,
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we've got a really strong Christian tradition in this country.
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But for those in the armed forces, Christianity is still important,
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and that connection to Christianity is still relevant.
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And to say that it should be non-religious in order to boost inclusivity,
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in other words, to be more inclusive to, let's say, Muslims or people of no faith at all,
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was quite insulting, actually, to a lot of people who are serving in the armed forces
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So those are the two issues that we've really focused on.
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And there's kind of more minor things that are a bit silly and a bit funny,
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So, for example, the armed forces' non-binary policy said that,
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and they do have, of course, they've got to have a non-binary policy,
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says that men can now wear makeup on parades and grow their hair out
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to the same length that women are allowed to wear if they're saying that they're non-binary.
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There's a series of other policies in relation to, I'll give you a good example, here we go.
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On the Royal Navy, in various ships, they have posters from official Royal Navy LGBT groups
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and networks, which they say defined 51 of the most commonly used terms,
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And the first term that they defined was the following.
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And they defined what all those word sort of alphabety spaghetti or whatever meant.
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And for some reason, sailors, this is literally prominent on Royal Navy ships,
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including the two aircraft carriers that we have.
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So, again, why are we seeing this endless political LGBT propaganda
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More recently, we saw the Air Force actually apologising for discriminating against white men.
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And I think that really, that sort of goes to the essence of why this is a problem.
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and as many people who are serving in the armed forces see it, are demoralising.
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They claim that they're trying to be inclusive.
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But actually, they're alienating the largest group of people
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who historically have joined the armed forces and want to join the armed forces
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because they're patriotic, because they have a family tradition,
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And by obsessing over these new DEI ideologies,
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you're actually putting off those people from not only wanting to apply to join the forces,
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And again, the armed forces have a huge issue where people are leaving the office corps
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And I think that's partly because of their new obsession with race and trans.
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there have been numerous scandals within the armed forces, particularly the army?
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The story of Deep Cut, the barracks and everything that happened there.
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Do you think that this might be them trying to say,
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look, this is never going to happen again, these awful, awful scandals?
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And I've spoken to a lot of senior serving people who have told me exactly that,
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that they're concerned that there are issues around bullying and harassment,
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particularly of women, where there have been some really serious problems.
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And to be fair, there have been some incidents which are pretty outrageous.
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one would hope that the existing policies in place would be able to deal with that.
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or if someone has done something absolutely outrageous,
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they should leave the armed forces and that should be the end of it.
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However, turning to this diversity inclusion ideology that we've seen kind of infect across all of Whitehall
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through all of the policies that I've mentioned is not the way to tackle those issues.
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And I think that one would assume that the armed forces is one of the most more conservative,
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I suppose, departments of government or parts of government,
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because naturally the people who sign up to the army just naturally tend to be more conservative.
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And I think that, weirdly, they don't believe in this DEI stuff.
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but I think they view it as a way to deflect criticism,
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as a way to kind of funnel anger with all the issues you mentioned in terms of bullying,
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harassment and other serious incidents that's happened in the army.
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To kind of, I suppose it's almost like a PR exercise for them.
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And to an extent, there have been some individuals who are really woke
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and have been promoted, I think, above their station,
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who have instigated many of these policies in the last few years.
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And I should also mention, by the way, that when we did this reporting a few weeks ago,
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said he was going to launch a review into all diversity policies in the MOD,
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I've done lots of reporting on various different wokeness in lots of departments.
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That's pretty rare that they'll actually come and say,
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A lot of the time, they'll come back and say, no, you're wrong.
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But in this case, the Defence Secretary felt that it was important to review some of these policies
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Do you think that's because it represents an existential threat to our armed forces
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and therefore an existential threat to the future of our nation?
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we featured quotes criticising these policies from the former head of MI6,
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the former head of the Royal Navy, not quite the former head of the Royal Air Force,
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but someone very senior in the Air Force, Edward Stringer, an air marshal.
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And we had 12 senior former commanders signing a letter which was criticising these policies
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as undermining our operational capabilities, undermining morale.
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And also, it makes the British armed forces seem like less of a threat
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to our potential adversaries in China and Russia.
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I know a lot of Trump supporters and so on in America are, again,
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worried about these similar issues in their armed forces where, you know,
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they've got these sort of trans generals and people talking about white rage and things like that.
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And they say, well, actually, in Russia, in China,
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they're focusing on how to fight, how to win wars.
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And yet we're obsessing with this new diversity ideology,
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which may be undermining the purpose of why we have an armed forces.
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And also, it gets in the way of just general practical things that are going on in the army.
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So to give you a few examples, things that I found of various different diversity positions within the forces,
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you have diversity champions, diversity advocates, diversity, what they call lead allies.
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There are over 111 of just those three things in the MOD, across the MOD.
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They have 93 diversity networks in the MOD, including 14 specifically to focus on the issue of race.
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Now, a diversity network is sort of a group where soldiers and civil servants can meet to discuss
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and lecture on diversity in their particular topic of gender, race, trans, whatever.
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They also have, on top of the diversity champions, the lead allies and the advocates,
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they have diversity practitioners, diversity associates and diversity advisors.
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Every single subunit has to have at least, I think, three practitioners and advisors.
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So again, you've got all of this massive, what I call the sort of diversity, industrial complex,
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diversity bureaucracy infecting across the entire forces, where these people should be focusing on,
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as I say, winning wars, how to fight properly, look what's happening in Ukraine,
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There's some really serious issues in the Middle East and so on.
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And instead of focusing on that and how we can make the army the best it can be,
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suddenly we've seen this massive growth in the last 10 years of this diversity bureaucracy.
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And I think, as I said, it undermines our operational, the sort of purpose of why we have the forces,
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but also gets in the way of just general day-to-day activities.
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Stephen, first of all, sorry for laughing earlier.
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But I wouldn't want people to take away from that that Francis and I don't appreciate how serious this is.
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It's because it's very serious that it's so outrageously funny in a tragic sort of way.
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And I think it does sound to me like we've kind of forgotten what the army and the navy and the air force are for.
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They are for killing the enemy, not for making people feel good about being included or whatever it is.
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And by the way, I haven't done anywhere near as much research into this as you have,
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but I am going to guess that the people that speak to you within the armed forces are probably not on board with this in any sort of way at all.
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Like most of the people I know that want to go into some kind of profession that involves killing the enemy,
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they don't tend to be all about, you know, their feelings and stuff like that.
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So, like, I'm guessing the rank and file of the British military are probably not on board with this.
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Honestly, it was an extraordinary response that I had from people serving in the military.
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I've never had so many people contacting me out of the blue through Twitter, through other connections,
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saying that they're just totally frustrated and outraged at what's going on in the forces.
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To give you one example, we published an anonymously written piece by someone in the Royal Navy
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who talked about how the diversity stuff kind of gets in the way of his just general activities.
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He was given unconscious bias training where he was told that everyone has hidden prejudices.
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And the important thing in somewhere like the Navy is that actually you've got to be a really tight unit
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where you've got to have kind of comradeship and you're actually going together potentially to fight and die
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And to be told that actually secretly you all hate each other because you're all racist, you're all sexist,
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and you've got to kind of remove from yourself these hidden prejudices actually undermines that capability of fighting with an effective unit.
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He said he never thought about people's race or gender before.
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But when suddenly you start pointing that out, that actually undermines that really important,
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as I said, that really important sort of purpose of having these tight units across the forces.
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So not only that, as I said, there's the issue of people completely disagreeing with it.
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And also to mention from his piece, at one point he was told he had to salute the white ensign,
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the famous symbol of the Royal Navy, what he described as a symbol that had brought millions of hope to millions
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across the empire and our Commonwealth and has a real sort of historic tradition.
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And right next to it was the LGBT Pride progress flag.
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And for him to have to sort of salute that in a parade was actually quite an insult because,
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you know, this again, it's imposing politics on people where there shouldn't be any politics in place.
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And to talk about this issue of whether people support wokeness in the armed forces or not.
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Interestingly enough, I did a follow-up story for The Telegraph where I got leaked a letter from General Sir Patrick Sanders,
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So literally the most senior guy in the British army.
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He wrote a letter following my reporting to some retired generals that was given to me
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where he criticised my reporting, saying it was insulting, saying most people in the armed forces
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or almost everyone in the armed forces would find my reporting offensive.
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And it's like you live in a completely opposite world if you think that,
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because if you actually spoke to people serving kind of junior people in the armed forces
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and actually senior people and mid-ranked people,
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you'd find that there is a huge discontent against these policies.
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And by the way, in that letter, he explicitly backed the policy to challenge security checks
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among non-UK recruits for the Intelligence Corps.
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So this has infected every single level of the top hierarchy,
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unfortunately, of the armed forces, not only in the army,
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where again, I think last year or the year before last,
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they had to apologise for discriminating against, I think, 161 white men
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It also shows how completely disconnected he is,
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because when you do comedy to people in the armed forces,
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you would realise that they are people who are fundamentally unshockable.
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You can't really offend them because they've been in war.
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So they have seen some of the most horrific things that life has to offer.
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And for the head of the armed forces to say he's offended?
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I mean, everyone knows that he's on his way out
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and he feels that he's a bit at war with the defence minister,
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criticism of his boss saying that they weren't listening to him on other issues.
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which basically said that we might have to have conscription
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And Downing Street were very quick to slap down any suggestion of conscription.
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So I think he feels that he's more able to speak his mind
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which is, in one sense, it's kind of quite concerning
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that him speaking his mind is actually supporting the woke policies
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and actually going even further than I ever thought he would.
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potentially to cover up some of his own failings in the forces.
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That's something that various people have made comments to me about that.
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And there's lots of stuff going on behind the scenes
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conversations that were off the record and so on,
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And I think that only under a Labour government
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this is going to get worse before it gets better.
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This review into diversity by Grant Shapps and the MOD
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and supporting some of these policies and initiatives.
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I think, personally, I think it was quite a cynical move for him
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But I don't think that ideologically he's conservative.
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I don't think he's particularly concerned about some of these issues.
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I mean, if you look at his previous statements on this stuff,
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he doesn't seem like someone who's focused on wokeness in the MOD,
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for example, or any other department that he's been in before.
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And frankly, it shouldn't take me reading these documents,
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which are open to everyone in the army on the MOD intranet page,
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It was so interesting speaking to some of the people who work in the MOD.
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And that's another area which I'm really concerned about,
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where you can blame civil servants and, you know,
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I'm trying to do the best I can on that front, you know,
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making sure that they're exposed in everything they're doing.
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ministers must take responsibility for initiating these policies.
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I remember going on GB News at the time with Marc Francois,
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He's quite right-wing at some of the things that I'd found.
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all the policies that I was investigating and reporting on
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And suddenly these things have been allowed under their leadership,
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under the leadership of people like Ben Wallace,
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I don't think there was some conspiracy of civil servants.
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I think that the Tory ministers are totally on board.
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own network their own group across Whitehall to
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critical civil servant in the DWP was in a call
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there she said quote there are two sides to the
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complained that that was bullying and harassment
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and discrimination saying there are two sides to
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the trans debate and in an official investigation by
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the department she was given an official warning
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and that quote was used as evidence against her as
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harassment so what Sina doing is they're pushing
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back against this stuff they've written to Simon
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meeting with senior civil servants they recently
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met with the permanent secretary at the math the
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home office called Matthew Rycroft who is the what
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they call this ridiculous name the gender no no the
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faith and belief champion of the civil service now
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just a very quick side note Matthew Rycroft is the
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man in charge of our police and our border policy and
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he spends time being a faith and belief and a race
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champion in the civil service to talk about trans
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issues why he's wasting any time on that I don't
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know but anyway so Sina have done some fantastic
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they found documents that they're upset about they
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sent it to senior civil servants pro-trans stuff for
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example and to give you an example one of the things
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they found recently in a letter they wrote to Simon
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Case agender now agender is a network for pro-trans
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civil servants so there's lots of different networks
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across the civil service as I mentioned earlier there's
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93 networks in the MOD specifically for talking
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about diversity and inclusion 14 for race so all
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across Whitehall there are all of these groups which
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by the way I don't think should exist but a total
00:57:21.960
waste of time but anyway they exist and that's the
00:57:24.700
reality agender is the pro-trans group in the civil
00:57:28.680
service they they came up with training slides which
00:57:32.100
compared gender critical people to the KKK and racist
00:57:35.420
nationalists now that's totally unacceptable civil
00:57:38.020
servants should never say that sort of thing I mean
00:57:40.680
it's just it's discriminatory it's bullying it's
00:57:43.300
horrible so they're again exposing these things
00:57:46.280
internally they're having those conversations which is
00:57:48.300
really impressive on the race front the and I think
00:57:51.600
generally and I know maybe you guys disagree with this
00:57:53.500
but I think generally the people who are opposed to the
00:57:55.640
critical race theory and the civil service at least in
00:57:57.520
my experience the people who approach me about these
00:57:59.420
stories tend to be more conservative minded less focused
00:58:02.900
on let's say being feminists and sort of turfs and more
1.00
00:58:05.360
focused on you know kind of this anti-white propaganda it could
00:58:08.000
be leftists could be conservatives but generally it's
00:58:09.440
conservatives those people are far less organized they
00:58:12.040
don't have their own organization partly because there
00:58:14.680
is no protection in law for anti-critical race theory
00:58:16.900
beliefs yet and that actually could change soon there's some
00:58:19.800
interesting legal cases that's going through the system now
00:58:22.320
where that may become a protected belief under law so and I
00:58:26.220
hope it will I think there was a recent success I can't
00:58:28.320
remember the exact details but a recent success in one of the
00:58:30.120
courts to do with that so they don't have their own
0.86
00:58:32.100
organization they don't have their own network the
00:58:33.760
anti-critical race theory but they do speak to each other to
00:58:36.900
a certain extent they do blow the whistle on a lot of stuff
00:58:40.300
that's going on in Whitehall and again they're having an
00:58:42.440
impact externally through newspaper reports and so on so I
00:58:46.380
am that was a very long-winded answer but I am basically
00:58:48.580
hopeful that there is there are some successes going on but
00:58:51.600
unfortunately the other side of it is Labour about to come
00:58:53.720
into the Parliament very very soon probably so things are
00:58:56.540
going to get better so things I expect will get a lot worse
00:58:59.300
unfortunately but but you know there are some brave civil
00:59:01.420
servants out there who are fighting this stuff and I think
00:59:04.560
Stephen we've talked about this and we've covered almost every
00:59:07.540
facet of it there's one part that we haven't covered when you
00:59:10.660
think that we're living through a cost-of-living crisis when
00:59:12.860
every government department is having its budget slashed how much
00:59:19.940
It's difficult to calculate because partly because the
00:59:22.720
government doesn't release the figures partly because it's so
00:59:26.080
bureaucratic that it's very difficult to find where they're
00:59:29.000
spending this money I think we know it's in the billions there
00:59:32.180
was a report a couple of years ago from I think Conservative
00:59:34.760
Way Forward that estimated it to be around seven or eight
00:59:37.200
billion pounds they're spending on diversity and inclusion
00:59:42.820
Across the board exactly which is a lot of money but it's also
00:59:46.180
having other detrimental effects on let's say procurement
00:59:49.180
where suddenly a good example of this is HS2 where suddenly
00:59:54.740
Sorry to stop because we've got a global audience and they'll be
00:59:57.040
like HS2 is the new high-speed rail project that the government
01:00:01.440
have been spending a long time talking about and it's currently
01:00:04.160
being built very costly huge 100 billion pound project where
01:00:07.880
they're connecting London to parts of the north of England
01:00:10.260
through a high-speed rail network and there have been huge
01:00:13.760
issues of the budget being inflated massively you know hugely
01:00:18.240
over cost and sort of what's the word I'm thinking of it hasn't
01:00:24.760
For contracts for HS2 diversity have suddenly become a kind
01:00:31.240
of tick box that companies have to comply with so this can interfere
01:00:36.160
in all sorts of ways where and particularly under a Labour government
01:00:39.200
by the way where they want to introduce legislation potentially that
01:00:43.060
would prioritise black-owned businesses in government contracts which is a
01:00:46.920
completely racist and disgusting policy could also lead to massive corruption
01:00:51.040
so this is the Labour's race equality act that they want to instigate
01:00:54.520
potentially they're still sort of discussing their plans we don't know
01:00:57.520
exactly what they're going to do but this is something that one of the
01:00:59.600
proposals that's come up people in the Treasury that I know are terrified of
01:01:03.040
this policy because it could cause as I said massive corruption it's also
01:01:05.640
morally abhorrent so this is not just it's not just about the amount of money
01:01:10.520
we're spending on diversity officers or on networks or on whatever it's
01:01:15.440
actually about the way that diversity can impact procurement decisions impact
01:01:20.280
really important decisions on spending where that also skews excuse taxpayer money
01:01:25.760
away so this could you know we don't really know how much it's costing but I
01:01:28.640
suspect it's a huge amount of money yeah Stephen it's been great to have you on we
01:01:32.620
are going to go to locals for our supporters questions in a second but as
01:01:36.020
always we end with the same question which is what's the one thing we're not
01:01:39.000
talking about as a society that we should be before Stephen answers at the
01:01:44.220
end of the interview make sure to head over to our locals the links in the
01:01:48.420
description to see this it's the first time in almost 250 years that we've seen
01:01:53.580
a kind of religious mob cowing Parliament and cowing the speaker of
01:01:58.440
Parliament this is really not normal let's not normalize the fact that MPs are
01:02:03.180
being murdered by Islamic extremists did you or any other of your colleagues at
0.83
01:02:07.500
the Telegraph consider resigning had the UAE backed investment fund taking
01:02:12.220
control of it if you're going to interview Vladimir Putin in the current
01:02:15.900
geopolitical context you have a duty to be informed I agree but I don't think
01:02:21.000
Tucker knew and how would he know that Putin would go down that historical
01:02:24.780
rabbit hole you can't be informed about everything about Russia something I'm
01:02:29.260
totally fascinated with as a journalist and just as a punter is history and I
01:02:34.880
love reading history and I love reading historical comparisons to what's going on
01:02:39.440
today and in the past and I think that people as journalists we don't talk
01:02:44.780
enough about history I don't think that it's some I think it's something that we
01:02:48.080
tend to ignore I think history you can learn there's so many lessons so many
01:02:51.800
things that you know errors that we that we're repeating today and I really hope
01:02:55.340
they're not just journalists but politicians intellectuals and so on we'll start to
01:02:58.640
think a bit more about about historical comparisons their own countries culture and
01:03:02.460
history and that's something I think that we don't talk about enough now I know
01:03:05.940
some people are interested in it and but others aren't and if you look at
01:03:08.760
contemporary politicians people like Liz Truss you know even Rishi Sunak to a
01:03:13.180
certain extent I don't think that they they have that kind of historical basis
01:03:17.280
that historical mindset that perhaps historical intellectualism that politicians
01:03:22.400
and perhaps even journalists in the past did have so I think that's something
01:03:26.080
that people should focus on more. That's so true and actually we have probably
01:03:30.400
interviewed a bunch of historians for a show that's mostly cultural and
01:03:33.880
political and we've got a ton more coming out because I couldn't agree with
01:03:38.940
more if you don't understand your own history then you really have no idea where
01:03:44.320
you're going and I think it's so important particularly in a world where people
01:03:48.760
are just losing touch with with what made their societies what they are. I don't know
01:03:54.740
we just interviewed Andrew Roberts about his book about Winston Churchill and like I
01:04:00.640
talking to him I realized how uneducated I was about Churchill and I'm probably more
01:04:06.080
educated than many people about Churchill himself so yeah I couldn't agree with him
01:04:11.420
more it's a really really important point. Yeah and I also think it ties into as well
01:04:15.120
I always cringe when I see conservatives saying oh you shouldn't study an English
01:04:18.680
degree you shouldn't go to university to study English and then you complain that
01:04:22.560
people who don't understand their culture so how can you understand what it
1.00
01:04:26.260
means to be English if you don't understand Shakespeare if you've never
01:04:29.040
read Dickens if you've never read if you don't understand the art that has been
01:04:33.640
produced by our country that has literally changed the world. I totally agree and by
01:04:38.360
the way the one thing I might disagree I don't know if but it's about
01:04:41.400
university I didn't go to university I don't think you need to go to university I
01:04:45.400
think you can teach yourself you can be an autodidact that's something that I've
01:04:49.040
done particularly in my fascination with history I've read Andrew Roberts
01:04:51.260
fantastic biography of Churchill and Napoleon and others and I think I just
01:04:54.760
urge everyone you don't have to do that you don't have to go down that route
01:04:57.920
particularly if you want to go into something like journalism it's a it's a
01:05:00.720
trade it's not a profession you don't need to go to university to study stuff
01:05:03.700
you can you can learn by yourself there's so much stuff on the internet and I
01:05:07.560
think that you know that's somewhere again where I just I'm a bit worried
01:05:10.400
that too many people today are just going down that academic route without
01:05:14.380
thinking about it. Perfect well we've got two for the price of one join us over on
01:05:18.080
locals where we continue the conversation. John Bryce says does Stephen think it's
01:05:23.620
still possible for a young person to have a long-term career in journalism and I
01:05:27.360
imagine he means mainstream journalism. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:29.700
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