TRIGGERnometry - I Am a Grooming Gang Survivor： My Story

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00:00:18.860 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:21.840 I'm Francis Boster.

00:00:23.300 I'm Constantin Kisson.

00:00:24.340 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:30.000 Our brilliant guest today is a grooming gang survivor, Dr. Ella Hill.

00:00:34.320 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:35.580 Thank you very much for having me.

00:00:36.800 It is a pleasure to have you here.

00:00:38.160 Just for people watching who know us as kind of jokey and bantery, given the subject matter,

00:00:42.980 we're not going to do that too much today, even though we banter with you off the screen

00:00:46.980 and you enjoy that and we enjoy that.

00:00:49.580 But just we've got to do justice to what we're talking about.

00:00:52.440 So for people who don't know your story, and maybe we have a lot of people from all over the world watching as well,

00:00:58.060 or they don't know what grooming gangs are.

00:01:01.360 For some people, haven't heard it.

00:01:03.020 And actually, I don't even like that term particularly because I think it conceals what these things really are.

00:01:09.400 So tell us first of all what they are, and then we'll get into your own story after that.

00:01:15.180 Okay. Well, I have my own definition of grooming gang crime,

00:01:20.500 and it's something that I'm hoping that more people will accept as an accepted definition

00:01:24.740 because it's a culturally agreed idea of what comes to mind when people say grooming gangs,

00:01:31.580 that it's a racially and religiously aggravated rape,

00:01:36.160 and a group or network-based rape.

00:01:40.000 Very often of underage girls, but it can be older girls as well, and young women.

00:01:45.540 And where does it mainly happen?

00:01:47.300 Because the name of the town that is most commonly associated with it is Rotherham.

00:01:52.560 Is it just in the north, or does it happen all over the UK?

00:01:55.980 Well, it's all over the UK.

00:01:57.180 There's lots of different towns now that have been named, has been involved.

00:02:00.540 You know, there's Burnley, Blackburn, there's Oxford.

00:02:06.880 Really, there's very few big major cities that haven't had some sort of grooming gang scandal.

00:02:13.140 And the number's now estimated over the last 40 years, possibly half a million victims.

00:02:18.580 Half a million?

00:02:19.500 Half a million victims over the last 40 years.

00:02:22.160 Yeah.

00:02:22.980 Right, okay.

00:02:23.740 And the predominantly white victims and the perpetrators are predominantly Asian Muslim.

00:02:27.920 Yeah, we'll definitely get into that, so we're not going to shy away from that at all.

00:02:33.160 Half a million?

00:02:34.800 Yeah.

00:02:36.620 My jaw is slightly agape, and I think...

00:02:42.740 No one wants to see that.

00:02:43.560 No, no, no.

00:02:44.440 No, certainly not.

00:02:46.460 I guess the question is, if half a million girls have been abused,

00:02:52.000 why is there not a national scandal?

00:02:54.880 Why do we not know about this?

00:02:56.480 Well, it is a national scandal, and in Rotherham, there have been numerous reports after reports

00:03:06.080 that have been looking into it and highlighting this type of crime.

00:03:10.580 And there's been a national crime agency have been doing an investigation of historic cases

00:03:15.800 over the past 15 years.

00:03:17.380 And they've reopened a lot of cases and looked to bringing perpetrators to justice.

00:03:24.100 I think maybe about 20, 25 perpetrators have been brought to justice in Rotherham,

00:03:28.480 but there's over 1,000 under investigation by the National Crime Agency in Operation Stovewood itself.

00:03:35.300 Okay, well, let's get into that.

00:03:37.020 But before we do, as I said, I think it's important we get your own story.

00:03:40.940 Sure.

00:03:41.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:41.980 So you were a victim of one of these gangs in Rotherham?

00:03:46.800 Yeah.

00:03:47.180 Yeah.

00:03:47.880 And just talk us through it.

00:03:50.340 Okay.

00:03:50.920 Well, I'll just say my background a little bit as well first.

00:03:54.040 Of course.

00:03:54.440 You know, I'm a medical doctor.

00:03:55.920 I'm a mum.

00:03:56.780 You know, my story started over 20 years ago.

00:03:59.520 So, you know, I was targeted in my late teens.

00:04:05.020 So I had a Pakistani Muslim boyfriend.

00:04:06.600 And that led on within a few weeks to becoming a very controlling, obsessive, religiously charged relationship.

00:04:20.000 And then been taken to different houses, different flats above takeaways around the area.

00:04:25.320 Rotherham, Sheffield, Bradford, to be raped, beaten, strangled, suffocated, tortured, almost drowned to death, suffocated to death.

00:04:38.900 You know, really, really brutally harmed, you know, covered in bruises most of the time.

00:04:44.840 And that lasted over a year.

00:04:47.360 So your experience lasted collectively over a year, essentially.

00:04:51.320 And I mean, the next question I'm going to ask is, how did you possibly get out of that awful situation?

00:04:58.140 Well, I tried to escape.

00:04:59.500 I tried to get away.

00:05:01.780 A lot of it I was hiding from my parents because I was very, very scared that they were going to get killed.

00:05:06.360 Because there were threats to kill my parents, threats to kill me.

00:05:12.880 But I did try and move, tried to get away.

00:05:15.480 And my perpetrator just found me very easily.

00:05:17.980 He stalked me, basically, to find me and broke into my house and trashed the house and planned an honour killing,

00:05:30.880 which he persuaded some of his friends to join in with.

00:05:35.780 And I survived and attempted honour killing with multiple lacerations and fractures.

00:05:42.420 And then I was in hospital for over a week.

00:05:45.220 At that point, the police told my parents to move me away and change my name, which is what they did.

00:05:50.220 And that's how I got out of it.

00:05:52.300 And with this horrible situation lasting, I mean, a year is a long time anyway,

00:05:57.340 but a year of that kind of thing is a lifetime, right?

00:06:02.000 And did you approach the police?

00:06:05.700 Yeah.

00:06:06.020 Yeah.

00:06:06.260 I went to the police five times.

00:06:07.760 Okay.

00:06:07.920 And what happened?

00:06:08.600 Five or six times.

00:06:09.680 They just said, there's nothing we can do about it.

00:06:12.080 What?

00:06:13.140 There's nothing we can do about it.

00:06:14.660 Those are their exact words.

00:06:17.920 So, I mean, were you explicit in what you told them?

00:06:21.980 Yeah.

00:06:22.080 So, you said, I'm being raped by this guy.

00:06:23.840 I described really horrific, horrific things.

00:06:26.460 And they just said, there's nothing we can do about it.

00:06:28.240 Did they offer an explanation as to why there was nothing?

00:06:30.640 Well, I said, I'm sure these are crimes.

00:06:33.100 You know, I was a teenager at the time, but I did know that these were crimes.

00:06:35.820 I wasn't sure that it was rape, even though my perpetrator said,

00:06:40.940 we're going to gang rape you, we're raping you.

00:06:43.600 Yeah, they used the word rape, but I wasn't sure that it was

00:06:46.200 because I didn't know because he was my boyfriend.

00:06:50.940 So, I didn't really understand what the law was around that.

00:06:54.120 But...

00:06:55.040 Well, the police should have understood what the law was around that.

00:06:56.180 The police should have understood, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:58.060 So, you go to them repeatedly and every time this is what they say.

00:07:02.280 They say, there's nothing we can do about it, yeah.

00:07:03.900 Why do you think that was?

00:07:04.740 Culture, at the time.

00:07:12.720 At the time, there was a culture of inaction.

00:07:16.120 I think that was what the review found, that within the police,

00:07:19.160 at the time, there was a culture of inaction.

00:07:21.240 Motivated by what?

00:07:24.600 Partly by the belief that it's your word against theirs

00:07:29.900 and a lot of sexual crime, that, you know,

00:07:32.940 how do you prove what went on in a room where there were no other witnesses

00:07:35.940 and where people are denying what you say happened.

00:07:40.620 But surely, Ella, there were physical, you described physical lacerations to your body.

00:07:46.060 Yeah.

00:07:46.300 When there is a crime of that nature, there is damage that is inflicted upon the body.

00:07:50.980 Yeah.

00:07:51.580 Yeah.

00:07:51.780 I did, you know, I've still got scars from lacerations and, you know, it's all documented.

00:07:58.920 The fractures all had x-rays.

00:08:00.760 So, it's all documented in the medical notes.

00:08:02.380 I've read my medical notes and the nurse says, you know, this patient says that her ex-boyfriend

00:08:09.380 has tried to kill her five times and that he's tried to kill her.

00:08:13.380 So, it's all documented.

00:08:15.280 And when I heard about the J report in 2014, that's when I re-reported it to the police

00:08:22.340 because I, well, I didn't re-report it, sorry, I made a complaint to the IPCC,

00:08:27.100 the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is now the IOPC, the Independent Office

00:08:32.340 of Police Complaints, I think.

00:08:35.080 So, they investigated it and they found that there was gross negligence, but they couldn't

00:08:40.060 prosecute or take any disciplinary action against the police officers because they said they

00:08:44.040 couldn't identify the names of the police officers or that they'd already retired.

00:08:48.260 Why couldn't they identify the names of the police officers?

00:08:51.460 Missing notes.

00:08:52.840 Oh, convenient.

00:08:53.360 I think, you know, we've prepared for this interview.

00:08:59.400 We've talked to you in advance.

00:09:01.140 We've listened to your previous interviews.

00:09:03.080 We've read about it.

00:09:04.620 We've read your articles.

00:09:05.520 You've written some really excellent articles, including one for the Independent.

00:09:09.360 But the stuff you're saying, you're saying it to our faces now, and I literally cannot

00:09:14.240 believe the things you're telling me.

00:09:15.900 You went to the police five times with physical wounds and evidence saying that this man

00:09:23.320 was abusing you in this way, and the police said there's nothing we can do.

00:09:26.860 Like, I don't think there's anyone who's listening to this or watching this who could

00:09:31.000 conceive of that being true, even though we know that it is.

00:09:34.820 Yeah, it's true.

00:09:35.640 Yeah.

00:09:36.320 It just, I mean...

00:09:37.680 It's shocking.

00:09:38.460 It's shocking.

00:09:38.860 I was absolutely gobsmacked.

00:09:42.520 I think that's the word I use.

00:09:43.680 I was gobsmacked to hear the police tell me there's nothing we can do about it.

00:09:46.500 Not even question the perpetrator.

00:09:48.040 Not even, you know, take photographic evidence or anything.

00:09:53.240 Right.

00:09:53.500 So I was gobsmacked to hear that there's nothing.

00:09:57.700 They felt completely powerless.

00:09:59.700 And now, I think, over the years, I've learned a lot more about what is happening behind the

00:10:04.720 scenes with education and police force, with the way that the police have been restricted

00:10:10.500 and limited in what they can do.

00:10:12.800 So I do understand a lot more of why those decisions were made at that time.

00:10:17.420 Okay.

00:10:17.760 Tell us about that.

00:10:19.980 Well, a lot of it's to do with race and religion, which a lot of people don't really like talking

00:10:28.180 about, and they don't like to hear it.

00:10:30.560 But this is why I feel compelled to talk about what's happened and what is still happening.

00:10:40.540 Because people need to hear it from survivors that these are racially and religiously aggravated

00:10:44.640 crimes.

00:10:45.620 That when I was being beaten, I was being called a white slag, a white whore, a white cunt.

00:10:51.140 That over and over again, the references to my whiteness was always at the forefront of

00:10:57.020 my perpetrator's mind.

00:10:58.060 And that that was always linked in with religion and his idea of what a good Muslim was and

00:11:03.400 a bad non-Muslim was, or a good believer and a bad unbeliever.

00:11:10.740 Even though I was a Christian, even though I have my faith in God, I pray, you know, I

00:11:15.680 believe in heaven and hell, I believe in good and bad, good and evil.

00:11:20.340 So, but in the minds of these grooming gangs, if you're not covered down to your ankles,

00:11:29.120 down to your wrists, if the hem of your top doesn't cover to your knees, then you're asking

00:11:32.460 to be raped.

00:11:33.200 Or, you know, if you're, if you're not washing in the way that you should wash as a Muslim,

00:11:39.980 if you're not, if you're eating pork, you're unclean, you're dirty.

00:11:44.300 If you use a knife and fork, you're dirty.

00:11:46.060 If you don't eat food with your hands, sounds like I couldn't know, I quite understand that

00:11:52.100 as the opposite way around.

00:11:54.240 But, so there's lots of narratives within these grooming gangs, which make hatred of

00:12:01.100 white people a justification for what they're doing.

00:12:04.820 And also scriptural things like, you know, we're allowed to do this, we're permitted to

00:12:09.420 do this to you once you've started your periods.

00:12:12.260 So we can't do it to you.

00:12:13.840 And before you've started your periods, we have to do thying, which is another type of

00:12:19.080 sexual molestation, which doesn't involve penetration.

00:12:25.240 Okay.

00:12:25.920 So, I mean, it's just a lot to take in, what you've just explained.

00:12:32.080 Yeah.

00:12:32.340 Um, and I remember talking to you before the interview started in that, and correct me

00:12:38.220 if I'm wrong, that the police don't see this as a race crime or a race-based crime.

00:12:42.860 Could you explain, maybe if I'm wrong, if I am, and just go into it a little bit further?

00:12:49.360 Well, what, how the police have been trained for a long time is to preserve interracial relations,

00:12:54.880 to not raise any racial hatred, to not accuse people of, um,

00:13:02.340 of, of doing something in the name of religion, which could cause anti-Muslim prejudice or anti-Islamic prejudice.

00:13:10.500 So, this is the way that police have been trained for a long, long time, years and years and years.

00:13:17.240 Um, so, they're looking at it from completely the wrong way around.

00:13:24.580 They're looking at it from a perpetrator's perspective, rather than from the victim's perspective,

00:13:28.360 where a victim has been a victim of identity-based violence, where they've been attacked because of their race,

00:13:33.240 and they've been attacked because of their religious status, which is a non-Muslim, or Christian, or Sikh, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or whatever.

00:13:39.260 Um, whatever it is that the perpetrators feel is the religious justification for that person deserving punishment.

00:13:50.540 Wow. And so, it's simply, they can't, they won't, they refuse to acknowledge it as a race-based crime,

00:13:56.160 even though you've given them evidence of it, even though part of the reason they committed these unspeakably awful acts upon you,

00:14:02.580 was because of the fact that you were white, and therefore they felt emboldened and empowered to do that, because, and they still won't.

00:14:10.640 No, I think the way that the system has been set up, it has been set up to have protected groups,

00:14:19.380 and white people and non-Muslim people are not a protected group, according to their,

00:14:25.920 these are current police guidelines for hate crimes.

00:14:28.540 Um, so there's certain protected groups, like Muslims, immigrants, refugees, Jews.

00:14:35.120 I'm fine then.

00:14:35.880 Trans.

00:14:36.740 You're safe.

00:14:37.420 I'm safe.

00:14:37.860 You're safe, Constance.

00:14:39.020 You're trans.

00:14:39.920 Yes, I am trans.

00:14:41.680 I'm coming out on this particular episode of the show.

00:14:46.360 And you're a minority as well.

00:14:47.820 Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:49.020 Oh, yeah.

00:14:49.680 Mixed race.

00:14:50.620 Mixed race.

00:14:51.160 Yeah, half Latin American.

00:14:52.720 He's gammon, look at him.

00:14:53.720 Yeah, yeah, it's all gammon.

00:14:54.760 This is 100% pure Brexit.

00:14:56.180 I think they're both cancelled by now.

00:14:59.400 I don't know if they're still protected.

00:15:02.220 I'm not sure.

00:15:02.860 But I get your point.

00:15:03.720 There's lots of groups that are protected under this categorization, but white people are not.

00:15:08.780 And you're saying that's current guidelines.

00:15:10.460 There's current guidelines.

00:15:11.240 So let me put it very pointedly to you.

00:15:14.020 If what happened to you was to happen to another young woman today, and she went to the police and said, this is what's happening to me, and I think it's because I'm white, they would still behave in a similar way.

00:15:31.040 Some police forces, they would not record that as a hate crime, but in some police forces, I mean, people think of Met Police as the whole of the UK.

00:15:39.080 It isn't.

00:15:39.560 That's just one police force, and there's, I think it's 23 or 25 different police forces all over the UK, and they all have different management stretches and training systems.

00:15:48.540 It's all overseen by the College of Policing, but, you know, there's a slight different culture in each part of the country.

00:15:57.460 So some of them probably are recording anti-white hate crimes now, but looking at last year's hate crime statistics, there was none.

00:16:05.800 We haven't got any hate crime statistics for anti-white hate crime.

00:16:08.920 We haven't got any hate crime statistics for anti-Western hate crime.

00:16:11.660 And I would say that when we talk about anti-Western hate crime, anti-white hate crime, we need to include the anti-Western as well, because now we are getting, well, we always have had the brown people who are being attacked for being too white.

00:16:28.060 So they're being called coconuts, they're being called Uncle Toms, you know, the black people who don't fit in with the specific cultural belief of what they should be for being black, you know, according to certain groups.

00:16:39.560 You've just described every ethnic minority guest on trigonometry, as you know, pretty much.

00:16:46.320 So, well, look, I want to balance this up a little bit just in terms of, I want people to know about you, which I know about you, that you're not someone who's driven by antipathy towards other groups of people, even Muslims, which, frankly, you'd be forgiven for, even if it's not accurate to say that this is all Muslims.

00:17:06.600 People, I think, would understand if you had some kind of antipathy, but you don't, which is incredible to me.

00:17:11.240 Not at all, not at all.

00:17:11.940 I mean, for my Christian faith, my very strong belief is love your enemy.

00:17:17.280 So love your enemy, bless those who curse you, and do good to those who spitefully use you.

00:17:21.480 So that is what I fall back on again and again, and it's been a chosen decision that, you know, these people who have made me their enemy, or they are my enemy, they're attacking me,

00:17:31.820 and they're identifying me as an enemy that they have to harm.

00:17:37.720 I will not hate them.

00:17:39.980 I will not hate all Muslims, not at all.

00:17:42.520 In fact, I will love them.

00:17:43.580 I will make a determined choice to love them.

00:17:46.760 And for them to be my friends, and for me to, you know, cook meals for my friends, and, you know, take care of them, look after them, check on their kids, their families, everything.

00:17:56.080 I will not be driven to hate anybody because of the colour of their skin or their background or their race or religion, age, gender, sexuality.

00:18:08.900 You know, that I think is really part of, it's part of my faith.

00:18:14.300 Which is incredible.

00:18:15.460 I mean, it's so powerful.

00:18:19.580 The fact that it's, considering the extremities of your experiences, the fact that you would then make a concerted effort to make that choice, you know, it's phenomenal, really.

00:18:32.420 It's been quite easy, I have to say, because I've met some absolutely wonderful people.

00:18:38.180 Like, in my career, training as a doctor through medical school, through working in hospitals, just absolutely fantastic.

00:18:44.660 Like, my friends, there's Nepalese, Thai, Chinese, Lebanese, Iraqi, Indian, Sri Lankan.

00:18:54.940 These are my close, close, close best friends that I've had for years and years.

00:18:58.320 So, yeah, it hasn't been hard to love them at all, to be fair.

00:19:04.040 And my Pakistani friends as well, you know.

00:19:06.300 The main charity that I support is the Pakistani, it's in Pakistan, it's a Christian charity.

00:19:11.480 And that's through my friends in the church.

00:19:14.660 But, for me, it gives me peace to love people, no matter what.

00:19:21.980 That gives me peace.

00:19:23.420 So, when I see, like, this Black Lives Movement, and I see a lot of the people on the streets, and they've got injustice.

00:19:30.040 And injustice is horrible, and racism is horrible.

00:19:33.320 To be a victim of any kind of identity-based violence is devastating.

00:19:37.500 And if it's been perpetuated through generation after generation, you know, or it's been ingrained in your schooling, or, you know, you've experienced it on the street throughout years, that is awful.

00:19:50.340 You know, it's very traumatising, and it can be compacted by lots of historical things as well.

00:19:54.880 So, I do think identity-based violence is terrible.

00:20:00.840 But for these Black Lives Matter people to go through the streets chanting, no justice, no peace, no justice, no peace, what I'm seeing is a perpetuation of no peace.

00:20:13.340 And the only way that justice has been offered to them is through what appears to be revenge at the moment.

00:20:21.720 You're absolutely right.

00:20:22.640 The reason I bring up this point is, I think, let's just be straight about it.

00:20:27.740 A lot of people feel that the issue of identity has become very toxic, and you know this.

00:20:33.340 And a lot of people feel, and this is because, of course, as again, I think you'd agree, identity politics for minorities has now pushed a lot of people into a corner where some people are starting to go, well, what about my identity as a straight white man or whatever it might be, or a straight white woman or whatever.

00:20:53.540 And so, to talk about anti-white hate crime, to a lot of people, that triggers their inner alarm bells of, you're in dangerous waters here.

00:21:04.420 And a lot of people now confuse the sort of thing that you're talking about, which, you know, based on the way that you describe it, is undoubtedly an anti-white or anti-Western hate crime.

00:21:16.700 They confuse a complaint about that, which is perfectly legitimate, with an attempt to smear people, with an attempt to attack minorities, with an attempt to be racist.

00:21:29.880 And in one of your previous interviews, you talked about the fact that even your parents were worried about speaking out and getting justice and getting you out of that horrific situation because your parents were worried.

00:21:42.480 They are still.

00:21:43.620 They're still worried about being called racist.

00:21:45.540 Now, I just ask everybody who's listening to this or everybody who's watching this to imagine that this is happening to your child and the concern you have about being called racist is so strong that it gets in the way of you protecting your child.

00:22:03.300 How terrified must you be?

00:22:06.440 What kind of culture you must live in to be so scared about that?

00:22:10.160 It's true.

00:22:10.800 It's true.

00:22:11.800 Yeah.

00:22:12.120 I mean, nobody is safe.

00:22:14.340 Victims are not safe.

00:22:15.540 It's been a safeguarding disaster, I would say.

00:22:17.660 The fact that we're not being protected from being falsely accused of being racist, Nazis, fascists, gammon.

00:22:26.340 I like you said that to me.

00:22:28.320 I did look at you when I said that.

00:22:30.560 And also, you directed the enemies bit to me as well.

00:22:33.020 I saw that as well.

00:22:34.260 Ella's worked it all out.

00:22:35.460 She gave us two boxes of chocolates before the show started.

00:22:38.760 She gave Francis the pink one and me the blue one.

00:22:40.780 So she's very perceptive.

00:22:41.860 I'm white, so I can call you gammon.

00:22:43.140 I can get away with it.

00:22:45.060 I can do it.

00:22:45.440 It's a white on white crime, Ella.

00:22:47.660 Exactly.

00:22:49.220 I know, but we shouldn't laugh.

00:22:50.860 I mean, I've been on Twitter now for like four or five months and through lockdown, and I've seen how bad it's getting on there.

00:22:58.540 And actually, I've recently left because it's not longer safe for me on there.

00:23:03.080 The anti-fascist activists and the online activists are really, really vicious and really scary.

00:23:13.040 You know, they're doxing people.

00:23:14.580 They've doxed two of my friends.

00:23:15.760 They've put their names and addresses online.

00:23:17.180 They've put the kids' photographs online.

00:23:19.200 They're harming their children.

00:23:20.520 You know, they've hacked into people's accounts.

00:23:23.860 Not me personally, but I've seen it happen to other people.

00:23:26.880 And, you know, the safety concerns are getting too high now, especially when you see all the anti-white attacks, you know, all the videos that have been coming out the last few weeks.

00:23:36.700 It's horrible.

00:23:37.380 Just, again, for people, because most people who may be watching this, they may not be familiar with what you're talking about.

00:23:44.700 So let's just be clear.

00:23:46.040 If I was an ordinary person listening to this interview, I would say, well, of course, Ella is going to be a threat because the Muslims who may have been involved in those grooming gangs may want revenge on her for speaking out or for getting them prosecuted, etc.

00:24:03.480 But you're actually saying, you're shaking your head and people might not be able to see, the threats that are coming to you and the people, you know, you were worried about coming here today.

00:24:13.640 I was scared to come here today.

00:24:14.760 You were scared to come here today.

00:24:16.300 And you were scared.

00:24:17.780 Of Antifa.

00:24:20.480 I just want to take a moment for people to think about that.

00:24:22.920 You're scared because the people on the far left, which is who Antifa is, who are caring, compassionate and care about victims and minorities and oppressed people.

00:24:37.060 They are the people you're worried about.

00:24:39.880 The anti-fascists.

00:24:41.100 The anti-fascists.

00:24:42.180 Yeah.

00:24:42.640 Okay.

00:24:43.180 A grooming gang survivor is worried about anti-fascists.

00:24:47.860 And our family members are very scared of them.

00:24:50.220 And, you know, it's so out of hand at the moment.

00:25:01.040 It's just really, really dangerous for people.

00:25:02.960 I mean, people are scared to have a Union Jack in the garden.

00:25:05.340 They're scared to, you know, support England in football.

00:25:09.820 They're scared to go out and show any white skin.

00:25:15.240 You know, walking on the street, you know, they'll cover up every single part of them to hide their whiteness.

00:25:20.220 And people are really, really worried at the moment.

00:25:24.560 It's very dangerous because the attacks are really bad.

00:25:28.400 But online, I just want to come back to the gammon thing because, you know, I get called a Nazi.

00:25:39.240 I get called a fascist.

00:25:40.280 I get called a bigot.

00:25:41.680 I get called an enemy of Islam, which is all lies.

00:25:45.460 I'm not any of those things at all.

00:25:47.340 You know, I'm not anti-Islam.

00:25:48.440 I'm not anti-Muslim.

00:25:49.480 I'm anti-spiritual abuse, if anything.

00:25:52.120 But one of the things that really hurts is being called gammon.

00:25:54.680 And the amount of times that people will say, oh, you're gammon, you're gammon.

00:25:59.260 They'll send me memes, different memes of meat rolling down, you know, meat rolling down a hill, you know, different pictures of pink men.

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00:26:40.180 We said at the start that there's not going to be any humor in it.

00:26:47.240 But, you know, the nickname they have for me is Baz, Barry Gammon.

00:26:52.840 You know, they're stereotyped, this pink-tattooed, overweight, bald-headed, typical northern Brit.

00:27:06.040 At least you're not bald, mate.

00:27:07.800 Yeah, I know. She was going through all this checklists.

00:27:11.220 That's me.

00:27:12.320 He's got the better hair.

00:27:13.780 Even your tattoos are pink.

00:27:15.020 Yeah, they are.

00:27:15.880 I got told by a dermatologist in Venezuela when my mum was worried about my skin.

00:27:19.960 I know it was a digression.

00:27:20.960 We went to see him.

00:27:22.340 He went to her.

00:27:23.180 There's nothing wrong with your child.

00:27:24.380 He's just a very pink little boy.

00:27:27.140 I agree.

00:27:28.120 I agree.

00:27:28.600 Nothing wrong with you whatsoever.

00:27:29.720 It's true.

00:27:31.560 So anyway, but yeah, the pink meat thing is, you know, we're called easy meat.

00:27:35.700 Yeah, the girls were called easy meat because we're seen as being an easy target.

00:27:40.300 They can pick us up and use us and throw us away really easily because we're not following

00:27:46.320 the strict Muslim rules where, you know, Muslim girls have to be chaperoned when they go out.

00:27:52.380 And they, you know, cannot look at a man who's not the mother, sorry, their brother, their

00:27:56.640 father or their husband.

00:27:58.960 If they look at a man in the eyes, then that means that they're asking to have sex with

00:28:03.580 him.

00:28:05.080 Whereas if a white girl looks at a man in, a Muslim man in their eyes, then she's asking

00:28:09.020 him to have sex with him.

00:28:10.580 So these are all the things that I was taught.

00:28:12.520 And, you know, I believe it.

00:28:13.200 But so for all these different reasons that culturally white girls are seen as easy meat

00:28:18.360 and, you know, they sing, they listen to music, they like dancing, they drink alcohol.

00:28:24.140 All of this is seen as deeply immoral and worthy of punishment.

00:28:27.540 And the punishment is rape, beating.

00:28:31.200 So.

00:28:32.560 Sorry, Ella, just to.

00:28:33.640 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:34.140 You say they're taught this.

00:28:36.280 Yeah.

00:28:36.480 I haven't read the Koran nearly thoroughly enough to be able to speculate about that.

00:28:42.340 But are you saying they're taught that by religious scholars?

00:28:46.900 They're taught it within grooming gang circles.

00:28:49.160 Ah, OK.

00:28:49.460 So this is why I want to delineate.

00:28:51.220 This is, we're not saying that Muslims are taught this.

00:28:54.340 You're saying people in grooming gangs.

00:28:55.900 No, thank you for bringing that up.

00:28:56.240 This is what I would call grooming gang ideology.

00:28:58.440 Yes.

00:28:58.660 OK.

00:28:59.000 Like you'd say jihadi ideology.

00:29:00.600 Right.

00:29:00.760 Which is different to mainstream Muslim ideology or mainstream Muslim belief.

00:29:04.020 And actually, there's a whole spectrum of beliefs from really, really helpful to loving your

00:29:08.660 neighbour, taking care of the sick, taking care of the children, protecting your family.

00:29:13.060 And then right across the other end of the spectrum, which is really, really harmful,

00:29:15.980 which is, you know, bombing people.

00:29:17.880 Yeah.

00:29:18.520 And the 9-11 bombings, the 7-7 bombings, you know, Manchester Arena bombing and, you know,

00:29:24.040 punishing people for what is perceived to be a spiritual flaw or religious digression.

00:29:32.020 Right.

00:29:32.200 And honour killings is included in that.

00:29:34.520 So there's a whole spectrum of beliefs.

00:29:35.980 And you get that spectrum within any faith group.

00:29:38.420 When it comes to grooming gang crime, there's like five main areas.

00:29:41.660 So it's virginity, purity, modesty, obedience and marriage.

00:29:47.200 So I will talk about all the different, you know.

00:29:49.640 But before you do, who teaches them this?

00:29:51.920 This is what I'm trying to get at.

00:29:52.840 It's word of mouth from one person to the next person to the next person.

00:29:55.060 So older generations are training younger generations in this stuff.

00:29:59.280 Yeah.

00:29:59.520 Okay.

00:29:59.960 And does it reside in one particular type of community or is it spread across a lot of communities

00:30:04.660 who follow Islam?

00:30:06.280 Well, we don't know.

00:30:07.440 I don't know.

00:30:07.960 I think there may be some research that has gone into that.

00:30:10.360 But this isn't something that I know much about.

00:30:13.600 I don't know much about the different divisions.

00:30:15.000 And I would say that this is a spiritual abuse.

00:30:20.040 And even in Pakistan, there's a law against using religious scriptures to harm people or

00:30:26.260 to use it to exploit people.

00:30:29.820 Misusing the scriptures, if you like, is illegal in Pakistan.

00:30:34.240 And people can get prosecuted for that.

00:30:36.220 And in fact, the type of gang rapes that you see here that are happening in Pakistan have

00:30:39.660 been prosecuted as terrorist attacks.

00:30:43.320 In Pakistan?

00:30:43.780 In Pakistan, yeah.

00:30:45.000 But not here.

00:30:46.500 No, not yet.

00:30:47.960 They should be.

00:30:49.020 They very much should be.

00:30:50.240 And rape should be an act of terrorism.

00:30:52.340 And it should be included.

00:30:53.740 And when police are documenting evidence, they should put on there whether this person has

00:30:58.700 links to terrorist groups overseas, whether they're a returning foreign fighter, whether

00:31:03.500 they are part of some larger network which is known as a prescribed terrorist group.

00:31:10.120 So it definitely needs to be treated like that now, yeah.

00:31:13.920 And you were talking about your experiences, which happened 20 years ago.

00:31:17.440 Are we doing enough at the moment to protect young, vulnerable girls?

00:31:23.800 Well, that's a whole different thing.

00:31:25.660 And of course, there are lots of perpetrators who are not Pakistani Muslim or Iraqi or Afghan,

00:31:30.720 you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, there's lots of white paedophiles, there's a lot of online grooming.

00:31:39.100 You know, we're not detracting from those types of offences by talking about one specific type of offence.

00:31:48.820 Yes. And so one of the reasons that I've been told to shut up for the sake of diversity.

00:31:53.800 Which is a quote from a Labour MP.

00:31:55.880 Well, not from her directly.

00:31:57.720 She she liked and retweeted a tweet.

00:32:00.580 And she has since said that she did that as a mistake.

00:32:03.780 Oh, OK.

00:32:04.380 She didn't mean to do it.

00:32:07.400 Anyway, it happened and she's not been allowed to forget it.

00:32:11.900 But, you know, we've been told to be quiet for diversity for all sorts of different reasons.

00:32:18.060 There are lots of different categories of sexual offenders.

00:32:21.680 Some of them use a completely different model.

00:32:23.280 They don't use the grooming technique or if they do grooming, there's something called Bernardo's grooming line,

00:32:28.360 which is four main stages of like a targeting stage where they identify a victim.

00:32:33.580 And then a friendship stage where they kind of get to know the victim.

00:32:36.740 They get to know maybe they like puppies or they like kittens or they like and then they like footballs.

00:32:41.900 They'll give them treats and presents in the line of whatever they like.

00:32:45.540 And then there's like the romantic relationship stage where it goes into a boyfriend, girlfriend.

00:32:49.040 And this can be like 20 years age gap difference.

00:32:53.260 Mine was roughly 15 years.

00:32:55.960 And then it'll go into the abusive relationship stage.

00:32:59.780 So that's the grooming line.

00:33:00.940 That's why they call it grooming.

00:33:02.300 It's nothing to do with like shaving and having a haircut and stuff.

00:33:06.540 But, yeah, there's all sorts of different categories and different types of sexual exploitation

00:33:10.260 and that are recognised within the services.

00:33:14.360 And just because you – I compare it to medicine.

00:33:17.760 So if you've got a cardiac unit, it doesn't mean you don't care about the renal unit.

00:33:22.680 But you treat renal patients with a different way.

00:33:27.200 The way you need to treat those types of diseases is different.

00:33:30.280 And the way that you need to combat it is different to the way that you need to combat cardiac disease.

00:33:36.720 Yeah.

00:33:36.900 You know, and so there are different specialisms.

00:33:39.180 And you can't say we're taking resources from one or the other.

00:33:41.540 You know, you want to treat all of it.

00:33:42.960 And, yes, it's all within the umbrella of a big hospital.

00:33:45.780 Or it's all within – under the umbrella of child safeguarding.

00:33:50.280 But there are different approaches that are needed for each different type.

00:33:55.740 So that's what I try to do, try to explain to people when we're talking about grooming gang crime.

00:34:01.000 We're not – you know, people very quickly want to say, well, all races and religions,

00:34:07.520 you know, victims that are of all races and religions and we shouldn't be racist.

00:34:11.620 So you shouldn't be biased.

00:34:12.520 You shouldn't racialise the issue.

00:34:14.460 But on the other hand, you know, if it is a racially and religiously aggravated crime,

00:34:18.700 that needs to be dealt with in a slightly different way.

00:34:20.560 And if it's linked to terrorism and drug trafficking and, you know, human trafficking abroad

00:34:25.220 or all sorts of other, you know, crime networks,

00:34:29.160 then that may need to be dealt with on a different level to, you know,

00:34:34.960 Uncle Fred who's fiddling with his nephew or whatever.

00:34:39.720 It's just that it's a different type of approach needed.

00:34:41.880 Completely. I suppose what you were getting at though, mate,

00:34:44.200 was whether you think that lessons have been learned from the experiences of people like you

00:34:51.820 and other survivors so that it wouldn't – couldn't happen again in the present time.

00:34:59.960 In terms of the big umbrella, I think the funding has massively increased.

00:35:03.240 The understanding has massively increased.

00:35:04.940 So like young girls under the age of 16 are not being called child prostitutes anymore.

00:35:09.860 They're being recognised as being victims, whereas they weren't for a long time.

00:35:13.520 You know, the police would very often do the victim blaming alongside the perpetrators

00:35:16.520 for doing the victim blaming, saying, oh, she was drunk, she was wearing a miniskirt,

00:35:20.580 she was asking for it, which is basically repeating grooming gang ideology

00:35:24.780 and ticking off the box, you know, refer to counselling.

00:35:29.620 That's job done.

00:35:31.460 But that doesn't happen so much anymore.

00:35:33.100 And I think there's a huge investment going on.

00:35:35.500 And I've been involved in training professionals about safeguarding children.

00:35:41.200 So, you know, been involved in a lot of these discussions.

00:35:44.780 This thing has been developing over the last few years.

00:35:47.260 So – and that has been improving.

00:35:48.860 But again, that is an overall improvement.

00:35:51.100 In terms of the specialist area, again, we'll wait and see what's going to come out

00:35:58.180 and what are the outcomes going to be from the grooming review from the Home Office

00:36:03.620 to see if there is going to be any specialist provision.

00:36:08.380 Because what the police even have been asking for is a specialist centralised national unit

00:36:12.720 because these drug – I'm sorry, the human trafficking is going on between county lines,

00:36:19.680 they call it, where it's across borders.

00:36:22.140 So from one major city to the next, you know, a girl can be moved around a lot

00:36:25.740 and have perpetrators in lots of different areas, and it's very, very complex.

00:36:29.260 So from a police force point of view, to have a centralised grooming gang unit

00:36:35.100 would be beneficial.

00:36:37.760 What about the culture?

00:36:40.920 Because, you know, when we talked about your parents being scared, right,

00:36:44.660 and, you know, us being scared to talk about it, you being attacked,

00:36:49.240 do you feel that the culture that allowed that to happen,

00:36:54.760 the culture of you can't be racist against white people, right,

00:36:59.340 the culture of you must be careful not to offend different ethnic groups

00:37:03.420 by telling the truth about what's happening,

00:37:05.320 that culture, do you feel that we've made enough progress on those things?

00:37:11.620 I'm shocked at how bad it is.

00:37:14.500 It's definitely gone the other way.

00:37:16.020 You think it's got worse?

00:37:16.820 It's definitely got worse.

00:37:18.220 I mean, just this last few weeks, I've been really traumatised,

00:37:23.540 actually really re-traumatised, because, you know,

00:37:26.660 when you've gone through racist abuse,

00:37:29.160 and to not have that acknowledged,

00:37:31.400 and then to be told that you're racist for reporting a racist abuse,

00:37:35.200 it's another level of injustice,

00:37:37.080 and to never get justice,

00:37:38.460 and then to almost be prosecuted for speaking out about it,

00:37:43.080 feeling that you're a threat of being prosecuted for speaking out.

00:37:46.400 And to see now, you know,

00:37:49.500 I do watch James Lindsay's Twitter feeds,

00:37:53.660 and all the information that's coming out about the,

00:37:57.260 you know, a lot of it is feminist academics,

00:37:59.980 intersectionist feminism,

00:38:02.200 which has been a massive spanner in the works,

00:38:09.720 you know, because these theories are being put forward about,

00:38:13.460 you know, the theories of whiteness,

00:38:15.160 the theories of white women's tears,

00:38:16.880 the theories of that white people cannot experience racism

00:38:20.960 because they've not historically been oppressed.

00:38:23.620 So, you know, a few months ago,

00:38:25.720 I was reporting tweets to Twitter,

00:38:27.160 saying these are anti-white racist tweets,

00:38:29.240 and I got a report back saying,

00:38:30.980 no, it doesn't breach the guidelines,

00:38:34.500 Twitter's guidelines,

00:38:35.260 so then I reported it again to another hate organisation,

00:38:37.760 and they contacted Twitter,

00:38:39.560 and came back with the reply that,

00:38:42.500 we don't remove any anti-white tweets,

00:38:46.240 because white people have not been historically marginalised or oppressed.

00:38:49.560 So they're doing on Twitter what the police did 20 years ago?

00:38:53.100 What the police essentially are being taught still.

00:38:56.620 Still.

00:38:57.540 Still.

00:38:58.400 In some forces, yeah.

00:39:00.480 And we...

00:39:01.100 Yeah, that it doesn't exist.

00:39:02.560 It goes back to that retweet,

00:39:05.580 shut up for the sake of diversity.

00:39:07.900 Do you think we've been told to shut up for the sake of diversity?

00:39:11.120 Yeah.

00:39:12.560 Mm.

00:39:13.320 And how many...

00:39:14.820 Well, we can see it through Twitter.

00:39:16.100 Do you think it's in every aspect of our life

00:39:17.740 where we're suddenly felt because of...

00:39:19.520 I think the Black Lives Matter movement

00:39:23.400 is frightening to me,

00:39:26.080 because,

00:39:27.600 A, I was forced to bend the knee,

00:39:30.080 I was forced to kneel down and kiss my perpetrator's feet,

00:39:32.580 I was forced to,

00:39:34.380 you know,

00:39:35.040 literally bend the knee,

00:39:36.320 to literally kneel at his feet,

00:39:37.980 as part of the abuse that I received.

00:39:40.380 And I know that other victims have as well.

00:39:43.500 From Rotherham,

00:39:44.060 I heard of one girl who was forced to kneel down.

00:39:46.400 She was raped by dozens of men.

00:39:49.220 She was forced to lick their feet clean

00:39:51.060 because she's white trash.

00:39:56.380 In their mind, she's white trash.

00:39:57.780 That's...

00:39:58.380 They're so morally superior to her

00:40:01.000 that they believe that they are...

00:40:04.380 It's a Muslim superiority thing

00:40:07.460 that they believe that they have

00:40:08.740 maximum moral authority

00:40:10.360 to command the people beneath them

00:40:14.160 to do that,

00:40:15.380 to lick their feet.

00:40:16.340 So when I see the footballers kneeling,

00:40:19.820 and when I see,

00:40:20.640 you know,

00:40:22.800 leading politicians kneeling,

00:40:24.680 to me,

00:40:25.320 I'm seeing them kneeling to my perpetrators,

00:40:28.460 and it breaks my heart.

00:40:30.780 You know,

00:40:31.160 I feel scared.

00:40:32.560 I feel really scared

00:40:33.420 that if this is what

00:40:35.060 the police officers are doing,

00:40:36.740 they're kneeling.

00:40:39.320 And I understand that for them,

00:40:41.000 they may feel that they're showing honour.

00:40:43.860 And that is another thing

00:40:45.420 in Pakistani culture to...

00:40:48.020 If a man kneels at his mother's feet

00:40:49.820 and kisses his mother's feet,

00:40:51.360 he's showing honour and elevation,

00:40:53.040 and he's showing how precious she is to him.

00:40:56.200 And that is another interpretation.

00:40:58.800 But it's also an act of subjugation

00:41:02.180 to force someone to kneel.

00:41:04.520 I will make you kneel.

00:41:05.700 You know,

00:41:05.860 that kind of,

00:41:07.020 you know,

00:41:07.280 you will be my slave kind of thing.

00:41:09.700 Well,

00:41:09.840 just to be clear,

00:41:11.100 I mean,

00:41:11.320 there is some argument there,

00:41:12.860 and I think it's important to say this,

00:41:14.580 that it started with Colin Kaepernick

00:41:17.160 taking the knee.

00:41:18.260 Yeah.

00:41:18.780 And so,

00:41:19.960 some of the people

00:41:20.780 who were taking the knee,

00:41:22.000 particularly in the American context,

00:41:23.480 where the idea of being knighted

00:41:25.100 or other things didn't exist,

00:41:27.100 it was more a sign of solidarity

00:41:28.380 than it was of submission,

00:41:31.500 if you like.

00:41:32.460 The problem is,

00:41:33.240 I think you very rightly say,

00:41:34.580 is when you start making people kneel,

00:41:37.280 when you start saying,

00:41:39.260 as I'm sure would have happened

00:41:40.500 if,

00:41:40.760 you know,

00:41:40.980 we were,

00:41:41.440 the Premier League in this country

00:41:42.880 restarted a couple of weeks back.

00:41:44.380 Yeah,

00:41:44.520 yeah.

00:41:45.040 You know,

00:41:45.300 I'd like to see what would have happened

00:41:46.420 to a footballer who refused to kneel.

00:41:48.020 I know.

00:41:48.480 Right?

00:41:48.760 Yeah.

00:41:48.900 And that's where you come into

00:41:50.520 what you're talking about,

00:41:51.640 which is,

00:41:52.360 you will kneel.

00:41:53.320 Yeah.

00:41:53.580 You must kneel.

00:41:54.460 You must kneel.

00:41:54.960 And that troubles,

00:41:56.400 troubles me,

00:41:57.560 I'm sure,

00:41:58.020 you know,

00:41:58.360 troubles you way more

00:41:59.380 because you know what that's like.

00:42:00.880 Yeah,

00:42:01.040 yeah,

00:42:01.400 yeah.

00:42:01.780 The psychological point of that

00:42:03.640 is domination.

00:42:04.600 Damaging.

00:42:05.260 It's damaging

00:42:05.780 and it's about saying,

00:42:06.940 you're down there,

00:42:07.560 I'm up here.

00:42:08.440 So I can see why you feel that way.

00:42:10.180 I can absolutely see

00:42:11.060 how you feel that way.

00:42:13.300 But you brought up

00:42:14.540 the grooming review,

00:42:16.580 the grooming gang review,

00:42:17.740 which the government

00:42:18.840 the Home Office initiated.

00:42:21.460 They prepared a report.

00:42:22.840 Correct me if I'm wrong

00:42:23.840 at any point.

00:42:24.280 They prepared a report

00:42:25.200 and that report

00:42:26.680 was ready to be published

00:42:27.960 and then was not published.

00:42:29.460 Is that correct?

00:42:30.220 Yeah.

00:42:30.880 Do you have any insight

00:42:32.580 into why it was not,

00:42:34.240 it was held back?

00:42:37.080 Well,

00:42:38.400 I'm one of the people

00:42:39.020 who contributed to the review

00:42:40.260 because I gave some training

00:42:41.440 at the Home Office

00:42:42.020 and at Number 10.

00:42:43.760 So I kind of know

00:42:44.760 what some of the information

00:42:45.800 that is in there.

00:42:46.640 Okay.

00:42:47.300 I also know about

00:42:48.400 some of the research

00:42:49.200 that has gone into that

00:42:50.140 from one of the

00:42:51.520 feminist academics

00:42:53.380 who is very concerned.

00:42:57.580 I know she's personally

00:42:58.440 very concerned

00:42:58.940 that this could be used

00:42:59.780 as anti-Muslim hate,

00:43:01.420 that her data could be used

00:43:02.680 and twisted and distorted

00:43:05.080 to justify anti-Muslim attacks.

00:43:08.540 So whether that could be

00:43:10.180 the reason why they've,

00:43:12.180 why they're hesitant

00:43:13.020 to publish it,

00:43:14.280 I'm not sure.

00:43:16.380 For that particular study

00:43:18.680 that was looking at groups

00:43:21.800 operating in networks

00:43:23.040 and gangs in the UK,

00:43:24.700 there were only 50 odd

00:43:26.560 perpetrators that were

00:43:27.620 identified under the specific

00:43:29.900 parameters of that investigation

00:43:31.220 of that paper.

00:43:32.460 And out of those 50 odd

00:43:35.500 perpetrators,

00:43:36.360 I think it was 96%

00:43:38.160 were Asian,

00:43:42.940 in inverted commas.

00:43:44.100 So they were Pakistani,

00:43:45.240 Muslim,

00:43:45.880 Iraqi,

00:43:46.740 or Afghan,

00:43:47.880 mostly.

00:43:48.940 So again,

00:43:49.560 it's a very small sample size.

00:43:51.340 So to say 96%

00:43:52.840 of rumours

00:43:54.000 or sexual offenders

00:43:55.480 are Asian

00:43:56.800 is something

00:43:59.860 that if you took it

00:44:00.560 as just that

00:44:01.240 and didn't look at it

00:44:02.260 in context

00:44:02.840 and didn't look at it

00:44:03.640 in terms of,

00:44:04.380 you know,

00:44:04.580 all the other missing data

00:44:05.500 that we don't have

00:44:06.240 and we don't know

00:44:06.920 and, you know,

00:44:07.800 all the hundreds of thousands

00:44:09.120 of other cases

00:44:09.780 that are not going

00:44:11.300 through the police systems

00:44:12.180 that are not being charged.

00:44:15.120 You know,

00:44:15.520 we still only have

00:44:16.140 like a 2% success rate

00:44:17.920 for convictions for rape

00:44:20.060 of any type of perpetrator,

00:44:21.900 whether black,

00:44:22.840 white,

00:44:23.660 brown,

00:44:24.960 Asian.

00:44:25.240 So it's a really,

00:44:27.340 really low

00:44:27.760 conviction rate anyway.

00:44:29.360 So there's far more

00:44:30.100 perpetrators

00:44:30.660 than convicted criminals.

00:44:35.620 Yeah.

00:44:36.620 So we,

00:44:37.620 but sorry,

00:44:38.100 let me just follow

00:44:39.040 just on the review.

00:44:40.980 I want to first of all

00:44:41.840 get into that.

00:44:42.660 So your suspicion

00:44:44.020 and I don't want to put

00:44:45.380 any words in your mouth

00:44:46.380 so just tell me

00:44:47.080 if any of this

00:44:47.620 is incorrect.

00:44:48.520 Your suspicion is

00:44:49.360 that they're delaying it

00:44:51.340 because they're worried

00:44:52.340 that some of the findings

00:44:54.520 of the review

00:44:55.240 would be used

00:44:56.900 by people

00:44:57.680 to attack Muslims.

00:44:59.300 Yeah.

00:44:59.840 Well,

00:45:00.140 they suspect

00:45:01.020 it's inflammatory

00:45:01.660 when really

00:45:02.740 there's no need

00:45:03.900 to be concerned

00:45:04.900 because

00:45:05.740 although there may be

00:45:07.400 a few very extreme

00:45:08.520 people who might

00:45:10.220 be

00:45:11.540 inflamed

00:45:13.420 to take action

00:45:14.060 and harm somebody

00:45:14.940 because of that,

00:45:15.880 I think most people

00:45:16.640 that are aware

00:45:17.180 of the whole story

00:45:18.860 now anyway,

00:45:20.000 you know,

00:45:20.140 most people who

00:45:21.040 care about

00:45:22.580 the information

00:45:24.160 being made public

00:45:25.140 have heard about this

00:45:26.720 for a long,

00:45:27.260 long time.

00:45:28.600 They do believe

00:45:30.100 that it's racially

00:45:30.740 and religiously

00:45:31.360 aggravated

00:45:32.060 and, you know,

00:45:34.180 with any types

00:45:35.000 of crime,

00:45:36.300 whether it's

00:45:36.840 someone getting

00:45:37.780 punched in the street

00:45:38.520 or, you know,

00:45:39.500 graffitiing on someone's

00:45:40.480 house,

00:45:40.760 if there's a racial

00:45:41.340 and religious

00:45:41.740 aggravation element

00:45:42.580 to it,

00:45:42.980 they usually get

00:45:43.480 a longer sentence.

00:45:44.260 It could be

00:45:44.840 slightly longer

00:45:45.360 or in severe crimes

00:45:46.820 it could be

00:45:47.140 double the sentence.

00:45:48.000 And that's because

00:45:49.400 the impact is

00:45:50.040 not just on that

00:45:52.000 individual,

00:45:52.500 it's on that

00:45:52.920 whole identity

00:45:54.100 group community.

00:45:57.960 So it is treated

00:45:58.940 a lot more seriously

00:45:59.740 if it is racially

00:46:01.120 or religiously

00:46:01.580 aggravated.

00:46:03.180 So I don't really

00:46:04.180 see why there's

00:46:04.740 a problem because

00:46:05.340 when there are

00:46:06.520 anti-Muslim crimes,

00:46:07.700 you know,

00:46:07.880 we've got organisations

00:46:09.260 that give support

00:46:10.480 to victims

00:46:10.900 of anti-Muslim crime

00:46:11.880 that help them

00:46:12.820 through the legal

00:46:13.200 system,

00:46:14.160 that help bring

00:46:15.260 justice for them

00:46:16.380 and help prevent

00:46:17.840 that as well,

00:46:18.420 help educate

00:46:18.960 and prevent

00:46:19.460 that through,

00:46:21.300 you know,

00:46:22.760 teaching in schools

00:46:23.720 for example.

00:46:25.520 And that's fine.

00:46:26.940 Nobody says

00:46:27.540 that that is,

00:46:28.980 that when we

00:46:29.480 highlight

00:46:30.320 anti-Muslim crime

00:46:31.340 we're provoking

00:46:33.000 jihadi attacks

00:46:35.160 or,

00:46:35.820 you know,

00:46:36.800 terrorist attacks,

00:46:37.980 Islamist attacks.

00:46:39.820 So we shouldn't

00:46:40.860 be saying it

00:46:41.220 the other way

00:46:41.480 around either.

00:46:42.960 And Ella,

00:46:43.400 what do you think

00:46:43.900 are going to be

00:46:44.240 the long-term

00:46:44.780 implications of

00:46:45.580 suppressing this

00:46:46.260 report?

00:46:46.640 Do you think

00:46:46.880 there's going

00:46:47.120 to be no

00:46:47.440 implications at all?

00:46:49.100 Well,

00:46:49.920 they've said

00:46:50.300 it's going to

00:46:50.600 be released

00:46:51.080 within a year.

00:46:53.460 We'll have to

00:46:54.080 see what happens

00:46:54.680 now because of,

00:46:56.480 you know,

00:46:57.300 COVID,

00:46:58.160 political situation,

00:46:59.580 the world situation,

00:47:01.240 you know,

00:47:02.820 problems with

00:47:03.920 protests and things

00:47:04.940 at the moment

00:47:05.400 could be making

00:47:06.320 it a difficult

00:47:07.760 time to release

00:47:08.600 that type of

00:47:09.400 information.

00:47:11.260 But I hope

00:47:11.720 it will be released

00:47:12.740 soon and I hope

00:47:13.400 they'll come up

00:47:13.780 with a sensible

00:47:14.260 plan which will

00:47:15.000 include countering

00:47:16.940 the far-left

00:47:17.920 extremists who've

00:47:18.740 been trying to

00:47:19.400 suppress a lot

00:47:21.240 of this information,

00:47:22.000 trying to suppress

00:47:22.460 it being dealt

00:47:23.140 with properly

00:47:24.000 and responsibly

00:47:24.800 and reasonably.

00:47:27.400 And I hope

00:47:28.020 that they will

00:47:28.520 look at the

00:47:30.460 spiritual aspects

00:47:31.140 and just

00:47:32.200 acknowledge that

00:47:33.000 there's spiritual

00:47:35.060 abuse going on.

00:47:36.760 And why do you

00:47:37.500 think, and I've

00:47:38.240 seen this on

00:47:38.740 Twitter a lot,

00:47:39.400 people label,

00:47:40.420 people who talk

00:47:41.220 about the grooming

00:47:41.820 gangs issue as

00:47:42.560 right-wing,

00:47:43.060 why do we

00:47:44.920 use that term

00:47:45.800 to describe

00:47:46.420 people who

00:47:46.960 try and raise

00:47:47.760 this issue?

00:47:49.360 Well, I'm old

00:47:50.300 enough to remember

00:47:51.240 the Twin Tower

00:47:52.180 attacks and I

00:47:53.300 think a lot of

00:47:53.960 this stems from

00:47:56.620 that time when

00:47:58.200 it was a massive

00:47:59.820 shock.

00:48:00.240 I was a

00:48:00.440 medical student

00:48:02.840 training in

00:48:03.500 the hospital and

00:48:03.940 I remember I was

00:48:04.420 working at A&E

00:48:04.960 department and I

00:48:05.800 remember patients

00:48:06.360 saying to me,

00:48:07.320 pointing to the

00:48:08.000 TV screen and

00:48:08.780 saying, you know,

00:48:09.520 an aeroplane has

00:48:10.520 just flown into

00:48:11.080 the Twin Towers

00:48:11.920 in New York.

00:48:13.940 And I went

00:48:14.600 home and I

00:48:15.720 was absolutely

00:48:16.340 shaken by it

00:48:17.120 watching the

00:48:17.840 live footage of

00:48:18.860 the people jumping

00:48:19.560 out of the

00:48:19.940 building, of the

00:48:20.780 whole building

00:48:21.320 collapsing and I

00:48:22.400 don't know how

00:48:22.820 many people died

00:48:23.600 in it.

00:48:24.780 A horrific number

00:48:25.780 of people.

00:48:28.840 That shook me

00:48:30.160 personally because

00:48:30.980 it was bringing

00:48:34.380 back a lot of

00:48:35.740 the feelings that

00:48:36.820 I had had

00:48:38.000 being attacked.

00:48:38.760 by essentially

00:48:42.980 Islamists who

00:48:44.720 were religious

00:48:45.720 extremists.

00:48:48.140 So it brought

00:48:48.900 back a lot of

00:48:49.340 those feelings and

00:48:50.220 from that point

00:48:51.100 onwards there

00:48:52.440 became this

00:48:53.080 technical war on

00:48:54.180 terror which was

00:48:55.580 to do something

00:48:57.520 about all the

00:48:58.420 religious extremism

00:48:59.580 teaching that was

00:49:00.180 going on, all the

00:49:00.820 hate preaching that

00:49:01.480 was going on

00:49:01.940 within mosques.

00:49:03.300 And I think that

00:49:04.120 has been successful

00:49:04.780 in many ways and

00:49:06.120 it has helped to

00:49:07.180 prevent a lot

00:49:10.620 more of those

00:49:11.860 kinds of things

00:49:12.320 going on that

00:49:12.800 could have

00:49:13.140 happened.

00:49:14.660 And the

00:49:14.860 security services

00:49:15.740 have done that

00:49:17.540 over the last

00:49:18.420 20 years.

00:49:19.460 But as part of

00:49:20.180 that they've also

00:49:20.720 been looking at

00:49:21.800 far-right extremism

00:49:23.080 which is a

00:49:23.580 reaction to the

00:49:24.960 Islamist attacks

00:49:25.680 under grooming

00:49:26.180 gang crime.

00:49:29.220 And lots of

00:49:29.920 other things as

00:49:30.440 well.

00:49:30.740 And America is

00:49:31.300 different.

00:49:32.600 But for here it's

00:49:33.760 a lot tied up to

00:49:34.700 the grooming gang

00:49:35.280 issue.

00:49:35.660 So when I've

00:49:39.040 been to counter

00:49:39.900 extremism training

00:49:41.120 workshops and

00:49:42.740 conferences these

00:49:45.440 two things are

00:49:46.060 talked about like

00:49:46.660 it's a dichotomy

00:49:47.400 like you know

00:49:48.200 it's the upper

00:49:49.280 verbs versus the

00:49:50.200 far-rights and

00:49:51.260 it's the Muslims

00:49:51.900 versus the anti-Muslim

00:49:53.460 if you like.

00:49:54.460 So these two

00:49:55.040 groups and they've

00:49:56.160 completely ignored

00:49:56.940 the far left.

00:49:58.500 So if you look in

00:49:59.660 the legislation and

00:50:00.580 the police guidelines

00:50:01.320 and counter-terrorism

00:50:03.540 legislation,

00:50:04.380 counter-terrorism

00:50:04.820 efforts which is a

00:50:05.760 massive multi-million

00:50:07.460 pound industry in

00:50:08.900 the UK and

00:50:09.880 multi-billion pound

00:50:10.660 industry in America.

00:50:12.920 Multi-billion dollar

00:50:13.800 sorry.

00:50:14.400 In America.

00:50:16.480 So yeah,

00:50:17.300 there's been this

00:50:19.160 incredible experiment

00:50:20.180 which I would

00:50:20.860 say has been

00:50:23.360 fired up through

00:50:24.320 the explosion of

00:50:26.260 social media

00:50:26.880 to reduce

00:50:30.580 Islamist extremism

00:50:31.520 and to reduce

00:50:32.220 far-right extremism

00:50:33.080 but at the

00:50:34.080 expense of

00:50:34.740 forgetting to

00:50:37.160 think about

00:50:37.740 the far-left

00:50:38.220 extremism.

00:50:39.440 You know,

00:50:39.620 there's not been

00:50:40.020 a focus for a

00:50:41.020 very long time

00:50:41.640 and we're

00:50:43.580 seeing now

00:50:44.200 what happens

00:50:45.520 if you

00:50:45.940 neglect

00:50:46.640 to do

00:50:48.740 something about

00:50:49.360 that.

00:50:50.460 And you know,

00:50:51.060 the far-left

00:50:51.620 movements,

00:50:53.800 the far-left

00:50:54.180 anti-Western

00:50:55.060 movements,

00:50:55.920 they're anti-Western

00:50:56.700 but for a very

00:50:57.280 different reason.

00:50:59.260 Would you go

00:50:59.920 into that a little

00:51:00.420 bit?

00:51:00.840 So why are they

00:51:01.820 anti-West?

00:51:02.480 Why are they

00:51:02.900 anti-West?

00:51:03.500 A lot of it

00:51:04.140 seems to be

00:51:05.440 coming across

00:51:05.760 from America

00:51:06.240 from American

00:51:08.900 intersectional

00:51:09.620 feminism.

00:51:11.580 Ellie's not a

00:51:12.240 fan of the

00:51:12.560 old feminism

00:51:13.040 I noticed.

00:51:14.760 Love you guys,

00:51:15.560 love you guys.

00:51:17.740 I've got so

00:51:18.440 many good men

00:51:19.000 in my life,

00:51:19.640 I cannot agree

00:51:21.200 that all men

00:51:21.660 are misogynists

00:51:22.340 and I cannot

00:51:23.380 agree that all

00:51:24.660 men are part

00:51:25.520 of the patriarchy.

00:51:26.200 It's just,

00:51:27.000 I can't,

00:51:27.780 you know,

00:51:29.680 that's a

00:51:30.100 different subject.

00:51:31.600 Sorry,

00:51:32.000 I interrupted you.

00:51:33.440 You were saying

00:51:34.260 it's coming over

00:51:34.820 from America

00:51:35.380 which is absolutely

00:51:36.020 right.

00:51:36.640 Yeah,

00:51:36.880 there's been

00:51:37.500 this very,

00:51:39.440 very well

00:51:40.460 intentioned

00:51:42.380 in a lot

00:51:42.680 of cases

00:51:43.440 movement

00:51:44.140 against

00:51:44.880 generations

00:51:45.940 of oppression

00:51:47.640 of police

00:51:49.780 brutality

00:51:50.360 towards black

00:51:51.080 people.

00:51:51.740 I mean,

00:51:52.220 you even

00:51:52.960 hear examples

00:51:53.700 of it in the

00:51:54.080 UK.

00:51:54.400 I've got to

00:51:54.800 talk about

00:51:55.280 four weeks

00:51:56.480 ago the

00:51:56.960 two black

00:51:57.520 women that

00:51:58.080 were murdered

00:51:58.520 in a park

00:51:59.480 nearby here

00:52:00.060 where we're

00:52:00.400 recording.

00:52:03.320 We think

00:52:03.960 they're from

00:52:04.220 a Christian

00:52:04.620 family background

00:52:05.680 but we don't

00:52:07.060 know if there's

00:52:07.420 a religious

00:52:07.740 or a racist

00:52:08.660 intent to why

00:52:09.700 they were

00:52:09.940 murdered but

00:52:11.320 it's possible

00:52:12.900 that there was

00:52:13.440 and that's

00:52:14.080 under investigation

00:52:14.700 by the police

00:52:15.180 now but

00:52:15.700 one of the

00:52:16.360 most shocking

00:52:16.860 things is

00:52:17.660 that police

00:52:18.280 officers took

00:52:19.380 selfies of

00:52:20.820 themselves with

00:52:21.440 the bodies

00:52:21.980 of these two

00:52:22.980 murdered women.

00:52:24.800 things like

00:52:27.680 this,

00:52:29.840 when you

00:52:30.300 hear stories

00:52:30.760 like that

00:52:31.080 you can

00:52:31.500 see how

00:52:32.700 or you

00:52:33.080 can understand

00:52:33.920 how the

00:52:35.820 pain of

00:52:37.480 generations

00:52:38.620 of being

00:52:39.360 disrespected

00:52:40.300 for the

00:52:40.740 colour of

00:52:41.040 your skin,

00:52:41.640 being treated

00:52:42.300 as less

00:52:42.920 than human

00:52:43.540 because of

00:52:44.060 the colour

00:52:44.300 of your

00:52:44.540 skin has

00:52:47.020 brought up

00:52:48.140 this Black

00:52:48.540 Lives Matter

00:52:49.000 movement

00:52:49.540 because for

00:52:52.300 anyone to

00:52:52.880 be dehumanised

00:52:53.800 to be treated

00:52:54.360 like an

00:52:54.720 animal

00:52:54.980 essentially

00:52:55.600 or just

00:52:56.780 a worthless

00:52:57.180 piece of

00:52:57.600 trash is

00:52:58.340 totally wrong.

00:53:00.560 We are all

00:53:01.100 valuable,

00:53:01.820 every one of

00:53:02.440 us is

00:53:02.740 valuable.

00:53:05.160 And that's

00:53:05.940 what you can't

00:53:06.480 say now

00:53:06.980 actually,

00:53:07.620 we can't

00:53:08.300 say that.

00:53:08.920 If we,

00:53:10.720 with the way

00:53:11.280 that the

00:53:11.480 Black Lives Matter

00:53:12.020 movement has

00:53:12.560 now been

00:53:14.040 pressed to

00:53:15.940 such a degree

00:53:17.180 and condensed

00:53:18.220 and built

00:53:19.640 up in this

00:53:20.000 cauldron with

00:53:20.780 the socialist

00:53:21.860 aspect,

00:53:22.900 the communist

00:53:23.240 aspect,

00:53:23.880 the Marxist

00:53:24.360 aspect,

00:53:24.960 the Islamist

00:53:27.580 aspect,

00:53:28.280 all these

00:53:28.980 different

00:53:30.840 political

00:53:31.360 viewpoints,

00:53:32.080 but all

00:53:32.800 of it

00:53:32.960 anti-Western,

00:53:33.980 all of it

00:53:34.360 anti-white.

00:53:35.920 And it's

00:53:36.800 just hit

00:53:37.500 boiling point

00:53:38.160 in this

00:53:38.460 cauldron at

00:53:38.940 the moment,

00:53:39.380 I think.

00:53:39.860 With lockdown

00:53:40.340 it made

00:53:40.680 it worse,

00:53:41.760 the existential

00:53:42.460 crisis of

00:53:43.440 are we all

00:53:43.780 going to

00:53:43.980 die of

00:53:44.360 coronavirus,

00:53:45.580 this threat

00:53:46.860 that we're

00:53:47.180 all under

00:53:47.500 at the

00:53:47.700 moment.

00:53:51.700 What I

00:53:55.460 see on

00:53:55.700 social media

00:53:56.200 is that

00:53:56.600 that hasn't

00:53:57.100 been

00:53:57.340 silenced

00:53:58.040 at all.

00:53:59.240 So I

00:53:59.420 know we

00:53:59.600 talk about

00:53:59.840 free speech

00:54:00.600 and I've

00:54:01.220 moved over

00:54:01.660 to Parler

00:54:02.320 now,

00:54:03.280 where it's

00:54:03.740 meant to

00:54:04.020 be,

00:54:04.380 anything

00:54:04.720 goes,

00:54:05.140 you can

00:54:05.300 say what

00:54:05.580 you like,

00:54:05.880 it can

00:54:05.980 be as

00:54:06.200 offensive

00:54:06.500 as you

00:54:06.840 like and

00:54:07.180 you won't

00:54:07.440 be censored.

00:54:09.040 It's really

00:54:09.680 civilised,

00:54:10.320 it's really

00:54:10.680 polite,

00:54:11.140 everyone's

00:54:11.460 very nice,

00:54:12.100 I don't

00:54:12.340 see the

00:54:14.200 racist

00:54:14.480 abuse,

00:54:15.000 I don't

00:54:15.200 see,

00:54:16.220 I'm sure

00:54:16.600 there is

00:54:17.000 some

00:54:17.160 on there

00:54:17.440 but I

00:54:17.780 haven't

00:54:18.040 really

00:54:18.360 experienced

00:54:18.920 it in

00:54:19.180 the last

00:54:19.360 week

00:54:19.620 since I've

00:54:19.940 been on

00:54:20.160 there.

00:54:21.880 Whereas on

00:54:22.400 Twitter,

00:54:23.280 when you've

00:54:24.360 got this,

00:54:27.560 it's more

00:54:29.600 censorous

00:54:30.740 but it's

00:54:32.720 also more

00:54:33.280 abusive and

00:54:35.020 the abuse is

00:54:35.820 definitely directed

00:54:36.500 to anyone who's

00:54:37.860 being too

00:54:38.220 westernised or

00:54:38.920 too,

00:54:39.940 seen to be

00:54:40.680 upholding the

00:54:43.020 patriarchy or

00:54:44.000 in collusion

00:54:45.480 with white

00:54:46.900 supremacists or

00:54:48.120 whatever the

00:54:48.680 accusations are.

00:54:49.160 And as you

00:54:49.540 said,

00:54:50.280 they're allowed

00:54:51.080 by Twitter to

00:54:51.820 do it because

00:54:52.400 when you

00:54:52.760 complain about

00:54:53.420 it,

00:54:53.740 they ignore

00:54:54.440 it,

00:54:54.720 absolutely.

00:54:55.800 I think the

00:54:56.580 issue that a

00:54:57.180 lot of people

00:54:57.560 have with

00:54:57.960 Twitter is

00:54:58.980 the double

00:54:59.420 standards.

00:55:00.540 If they had

00:55:01.060 equal standards

00:55:01.880 for everybody

00:55:02.560 and they

00:55:03.800 said,

00:55:04.600 look,

00:55:04.760 this is a

00:55:05.240 non-abusive

00:55:05.680 platform,

00:55:06.220 the moment you

00:55:06.700 start being

00:55:07.040 abusive to

00:55:07.540 people,

00:55:08.240 it doesn't

00:55:08.460 matter white,

00:55:09.060 black,

00:55:09.520 yellow,

00:55:09.880 whatever,

00:55:10.120 you get

00:55:11.040 banned or

00:55:11.480 you get

00:55:11.840 blocked or

00:55:12.320 you get

00:55:12.600 suspended.

00:55:13.620 Or equally,

00:55:14.580 they could

00:55:14.900 say,

00:55:15.360 we don't

00:55:16.000 care.

00:55:16.700 You can

00:55:17.260 say whatever

00:55:17.600 you want.

00:55:18.240 And then if

00:55:19.020 they treated

00:55:19.400 everybody equally,

00:55:20.160 I think people

00:55:21.060 would take it

00:55:22.180 at face value

00:55:23.020 and they would

00:55:23.400 go,

00:55:24.080 I don't want

00:55:24.500 to be on

00:55:24.940 an abusive

00:55:25.380 platform or

00:55:26.880 I'm happy to

00:55:27.900 be on a

00:55:28.400 censorious

00:55:28.820 platform as

00:55:29.580 long as it's

00:55:30.140 fair.

00:55:30.700 The issue

00:55:31.220 that you're

00:55:31.580 raising is

00:55:32.180 not fair.

00:55:33.280 It's not

00:55:33.740 balanced.

00:55:35.000 But for some

00:55:35.600 people in the

00:55:36.760 black movement,

00:55:37.440 it's fair because

00:55:38.080 it's been so

00:55:38.740 outweighted against

00:55:39.660 them for so

00:55:40.260 long that they

00:55:40.780 feel that for

00:55:41.400 it to be

00:55:41.700 outweighted

00:55:42.100 against white

00:55:43.660 people,

00:55:44.120 it's only

00:55:44.400 balanced and

00:55:44.900 that's why

00:55:45.180 they would

00:55:45.420 call it

00:55:45.700 satire.

00:55:46.980 This is

00:55:47.460 funny to

00:55:48.220 repeatedly

00:55:49.140 abuse someone

00:55:49.800 calling them

00:55:50.160 gammon,

00:55:50.580 calling them

00:55:50.880 meat,

00:55:51.420 because you're

00:55:53.180 the colour

00:55:53.420 of the skin,

00:55:53.900 you're worthless,

00:55:54.980 you're nothing

00:55:55.680 better than just

00:55:56.600 a piece of

00:55:57.020 slab of meat.

00:55:58.160 That's funny.

00:55:59.000 It's not funny.

00:56:00.120 It's absolutely

00:56:00.880 not funny.

00:56:01.480 It's very

00:56:01.840 insulting.

00:56:02.680 And what are

00:56:03.080 the long-term

00:56:03.500 implications,

00:56:04.320 do you think,

00:56:04.860 of allowing

00:56:05.400 this very

00:56:06.800 much,

00:56:07.200 very hard

00:56:07.740 leftist,

00:56:08.240 neo-Marxist

00:56:08.860 way of

00:56:09.200 thinking,

00:56:09.680 not censoring

00:56:10.720 them,

00:56:11.360 they can

00:56:11.660 come in,

00:56:12.100 they can

00:56:12.380 say whatever

00:56:12.860 they like,

00:56:13.320 they can

00:56:13.560 be verbally

00:56:14.020 abusive.

00:56:15.500 What do you

00:56:16.000 think are the

00:56:16.280 long-term

00:56:16.560 implications of

00:56:17.320 that?

00:56:18.060 Well,

00:56:18.300 history tells

00:56:18.840 us it's

00:56:19.120 not good.

00:56:21.360 Really not

00:56:21.940 good.

00:56:22.220 And we

00:56:22.400 look at

00:56:22.660 different

00:56:23.820 systems around

00:56:24.860 the world

00:56:25.160 and we

00:56:25.860 learn it's

00:56:26.240 really not

00:56:26.660 good.

00:56:29.580 But,

00:56:30.660 you know,

00:56:30.980 as I talk

00:56:31.420 about identity-based

00:56:33.120 violence and

00:56:33.880 identity-based

00:56:34.280 abuse,

00:56:35.160 and I say

00:56:37.020 that we need

00:56:37.500 to understand

00:56:38.700 what that

00:56:39.100 is and

00:56:39.500 realise that

00:56:40.040 we are

00:56:40.280 victims of

00:56:40.760 it.

00:56:41.820 But I

00:56:42.140 talk about

00:56:42.620 free speech,

00:56:44.440 and I know

00:56:45.560 this is the

00:56:46.060 whole call for

00:56:46.860 free speech

00:56:47.400 and everything,

00:56:47.960 and I'm

00:56:48.960 saying,

00:56:50.180 well,

00:56:50.260 hold on,

00:56:50.740 we need

00:56:50.980 free speech,

00:56:51.500 but with

00:56:51.880 safe boundaries.

00:56:53.340 You know,

00:56:53.560 we have these

00:56:54.120 speech laws for

00:56:55.080 a reason.

00:56:56.260 You know,

00:56:56.460 we have a

00:56:56.840 computer act

00:56:57.600 to say that

00:56:58.440 it's wrong to

00:56:59.040 hack into

00:56:59.440 people's

00:56:59.980 computers and

00:57:00.820 steal their

00:57:01.200 data or

00:57:01.620 their lives

00:57:02.380 or their

00:57:02.640 money or

00:57:02.920 whatever,

00:57:03.120 and it's

00:57:03.880 wrong to

00:57:04.680 slander

00:57:05.120 people or

00:57:06.020 it's wrong

00:57:06.320 to libel

00:57:06.780 people and

00:57:07.760 it's wrong

00:57:08.140 to aggressively

00:57:09.280 troll people.

00:57:10.400 You know,

00:57:10.520 we've got

00:57:10.800 these laws,

00:57:11.780 they need to

00:57:13.520 be applied,

00:57:14.160 but they need

00:57:14.520 to be applied

00:57:15.040 to the far

00:57:15.540 left because

00:57:16.620 we've got the

00:57:17.120 far right,

00:57:18.020 the far left

00:57:18.480 and the

00:57:18.680 upper bubs.

00:57:19.760 So the way

00:57:20.300 that I have

00:57:21.860 come to

00:57:22.220 understand how

00:57:23.140 these,

00:57:24.560 how to

00:57:25.020 explain this

00:57:25.880 to people

00:57:26.300 is that

00:57:28.280 extremists

00:57:30.300 want to

00:57:30.960 attack your

00:57:31.500 mind,

00:57:32.020 your body

00:57:32.380 and your

00:57:32.700 spirit.

00:57:33.840 Okay,

00:57:34.160 they want

00:57:34.500 control over

00:57:35.240 your mind,

00:57:35.720 your body

00:57:35.980 and your

00:57:36.240 spirit.

00:57:36.760 And we've

00:57:37.120 all got a

00:57:37.500 mind and a

00:57:37.900 body and

00:57:38.180 a spirit.

00:57:39.700 And the

00:57:40.220 far right

00:57:40.620 extremists are

00:57:41.520 kind of

00:57:41.880 experts in

00:57:42.680 controlling and

00:57:43.520 taking,

00:57:45.940 approaching you

00:57:46.840 from controlling

00:57:47.660 your body and

00:57:48.280 controlling physical

00:57:49.380 violence,

00:57:50.120 physical strength,

00:57:50.760 physical power.

00:57:52.860 The far,

00:57:53.560 I'm sorry,

00:57:53.900 the up above

00:57:54.340 extremists are

00:57:55.240 more interested

00:57:56.120 in controlling

00:57:57.120 your spirit,

00:57:57.780 so they'll

00:57:58.080 use,

00:57:58.680 you know,

00:57:59.620 they'll use

00:58:00.080 guilt and shame,

00:58:01.000 they'll use

00:58:01.380 religious

00:58:01.760 manipulation,

00:58:03.100 they'll use

00:58:04.000 religious

00:58:04.280 scriptures to

00:58:05.140 control you,

00:58:05.680 to get you

00:58:05.980 to do what

00:58:06.260 you want,

00:58:06.640 what they

00:58:06.940 want you to

00:58:07.300 do,

00:58:07.560 to serve

00:58:08.000 them.

00:58:08.960 And then

00:58:09.300 there's the

00:58:09.580 far left

00:58:09.840 extremists who

00:58:10.600 are experts

00:58:11.180 in the mind

00:58:11.900 and controlling

00:58:13.160 the mind and

00:58:13.800 they will attack

00:58:14.500 your mind and

00:58:15.580 they will do

00:58:15.880 that through

00:58:16.160 social media,

00:58:16.900 they will do

00:58:17.260 that through

00:58:17.820 social norms

00:58:20.780 or do it

00:58:21.780 through,

00:58:22.100 you know,

00:58:23.220 pseudo education.

00:58:24.220 a lot of

00:58:26.600 it is also

00:58:26.900 manipulation of

00:58:27.720 language.

00:58:28.600 The language,

00:58:29.420 yeah,

00:58:29.820 and they are

00:58:30.460 the experts,

00:58:31.340 yeah.

00:58:32.080 You know,

00:58:32.340 you've heard the

00:58:32.800 saying that the

00:58:33.620 devil is a

00:58:34.400 lawyer.

00:58:37.240 Yes.

00:58:37.900 I do think of

00:58:38.640 that quite often.

00:58:39.560 The skill of

00:58:40.840 these people to

00:58:41.540 flip things and

00:58:42.360 manipulate things

00:58:43.100 and get the

00:58:43.820 wording and

00:58:44.360 change the

00:58:45.080 definition of

00:58:45.660 things,

00:58:45.940 like change the

00:58:46.400 definition of

00:58:46.900 racism to

00:58:47.480 mean that all

00:58:49.000 50 different

00:58:49.660 races in the

00:58:50.180 world can be

00:58:50.720 victims of

00:58:51.160 racism,

00:58:51.700 apart from one,

00:58:52.880 that's white

00:58:53.300 people.

00:58:54.360 It's nonsense,

00:58:55.600 absolute nonsense.

00:58:57.280 And you

00:58:59.260 brought up the

00:59:00.400 far left,

00:59:00.920 the far right

00:59:01.480 and the up

00:59:01.920 above and I

00:59:02.700 think most

00:59:03.100 people understand

00:59:04.060 the up above,

00:59:05.820 the religious

00:59:06.300 stuff we kind

00:59:07.540 of all get,

00:59:08.080 I think.

00:59:09.200 The one thing

00:59:09.980 I wanted to

00:59:10.660 ask you about

00:59:11.260 as well is

00:59:11.900 you're very

00:59:14.020 sensible and

00:59:15.060 reasonable and

00:59:15.860 you don't want

00:59:16.580 anyone to be

00:59:17.600 hated or

00:59:18.520 mistreated or

00:59:19.480 anything like

00:59:19.920 that.

00:59:20.680 Do you feel

00:59:22.420 that there's

00:59:23.460 been,

00:59:24.780 because of

00:59:25.340 maybe the

00:59:25.800 lack of

00:59:26.320 proper coverage

00:59:27.180 of the issue

00:59:27.740 of grooming

00:59:28.160 gangs,

00:59:28.920 it has fallen

00:59:29.560 onto the

00:59:30.640 shoulders,

00:59:31.140 you might say,

00:59:31.740 of people

00:59:32.220 who,

00:59:33.120 some of who

00:59:33.600 may be

00:59:34.120 leaning towards

00:59:35.020 the far right,

00:59:35.620 let's say,

00:59:36.260 to speak up on

00:59:37.000 that issue.

00:59:38.440 And that's

00:59:39.540 kind of where

00:59:39.900 the problem I

00:59:40.440 think for a lot

00:59:40.940 of people comes

00:59:41.520 in now,

00:59:42.160 which is like,

00:59:42.860 oh, you're

00:59:43.300 talking about

00:59:43.700 grooming gangs?

00:59:44.340 You must be

00:59:44.760 far right.

00:59:45.300 Like, that's

00:59:45.940 the connection

00:59:46.500 people often make

00:59:47.340 and you talk

00:59:47.920 about how you

00:59:48.560 get called all

00:59:49.540 those things.

00:59:50.700 Do you think

00:59:51.160 that's just a

00:59:51.920 convenient label

00:59:53.020 or do you think

00:59:53.680 there is some

00:59:54.140 truth that that

00:59:54.860 was an issue

00:59:55.300 that was taken

00:59:56.260 up by some

00:59:57.180 people who

00:59:57.600 were far right?

01:00:00.360 Well, I think

01:00:01.840 there's individual

01:00:02.460 cases and

01:00:03.440 individual grievances

01:00:04.420 and people who

01:00:05.500 are interested in

01:00:06.120 the topic of

01:00:07.820 grooming gangs

01:00:08.360 are very often

01:00:09.460 personally affected

01:00:10.340 by it.

01:00:11.360 So either them

01:00:12.140 or a family

01:00:12.680 member has been

01:00:13.880 a victim of it.

01:00:15.340 And that includes

01:00:15.960 the men because

01:00:16.680 there are male

01:00:17.200 victims of

01:00:17.780 grooming gangs as

01:00:18.460 well, of all

01:00:20.560 backgrounds and

01:00:22.060 races.

01:00:23.380 So whether

01:00:24.660 certain individuals

01:00:26.300 have exploited

01:00:28.420 the issue, as

01:00:29.260 people would say,

01:00:30.900 for personal

01:00:31.440 gain, I find

01:00:33.460 that wording,

01:00:35.720 I find I'm

01:00:36.520 uncomfortable with

01:00:37.260 that particular

01:00:38.100 wording of it

01:00:38.760 because for

01:00:39.900 people who are

01:00:40.480 fighting for

01:00:40.980 justice and

01:00:41.380 have been

01:00:41.600 fighting for

01:00:41.960 justice for a

01:00:42.340 very long time,

01:00:43.800 who might be

01:00:44.860 seeking funding

01:00:45.500 to get justice

01:00:46.360 or to be

01:00:47.580 seeking funding

01:00:48.140 to raise

01:00:48.580 awareness,

01:00:49.840 even if

01:00:50.500 they're doing

01:00:50.860 it in a

01:00:51.900 not very

01:00:52.220 helpful way

01:00:53.140 or potentially

01:00:56.480 harmful, racist

01:00:57.880 or destructive

01:00:58.540 way, to label

01:01:01.720 every one of

01:01:02.420 them as far

01:01:02.900 right, I think

01:01:03.340 you need to

01:01:03.660 look at each

01:01:04.080 individual case

01:01:04.780 as it is.

01:01:05.340 When you're

01:01:05.560 looking at

01:01:06.040 extremism,

01:01:07.640 the definition

01:01:08.320 of extremism

01:01:09.140 is someone who

01:01:10.080 is justifying

01:01:10.980 violence to

01:01:12.180 fulfil their

01:01:14.660 a religious

01:01:15.760 social or

01:01:16.520 political

01:01:16.940 objective.

01:01:19.660 So that is

01:01:20.280 what extremism

01:01:20.900 is.

01:01:21.440 So if they're

01:01:22.060 not looking

01:01:22.640 for violent

01:01:23.180 solutions to

01:01:24.060 the problem

01:01:25.280 of screaming

01:01:25.940 gangs, then

01:01:26.440 you can't

01:01:26.820 really call

01:01:27.180 them extremist

01:01:27.740 far-right.

01:01:29.440 They're probably

01:01:29.780 just normal

01:01:30.160 people, a lot

01:01:30.840 of them.

01:01:31.580 And how much

01:01:32.680 do you think

01:01:33.360 young girls

01:01:35.660 have been deemed

01:01:36.280 expendable

01:01:37.060 because they're

01:01:37.740 from a

01:01:38.020 working-class

01:01:38.680 background?

01:01:40.980 I mean, it's

01:01:42.600 a horrible

01:01:42.920 question to

01:01:43.580 ask because

01:01:44.460 I presume,

01:01:45.920 from what I've

01:01:46.380 read, this

01:01:46.720 didn't apply to

01:01:48.320 a lot of

01:01:48.740 middle-class

01:01:49.200 girls, these

01:01:49.640 are predominantly

01:01:50.040 working-class

01:01:50.840 girls, vulnerable

01:01:52.000 girls.

01:01:52.520 So the

01:01:52.740 authorities

01:01:53.220 therefore thought

01:01:54.020 not as

01:01:55.640 important.

01:01:56.320 There are a

01:01:56.860 lot of

01:01:57.060 middle-class

01:01:57.580 victims.

01:01:59.060 There are

01:01:59.360 because,

01:02:00.640 believe it or

01:02:00.980 not, middle-class

01:02:01.960 people get

01:02:02.380 scared and

01:02:03.420 get intimidated

01:02:04.160 just as much

01:02:05.040 as anybody

01:02:05.400 else.

01:02:06.340 So it's

01:02:06.720 really not

01:02:07.180 hard.

01:02:07.940 Once the

01:02:08.580 arbitrator has

01:02:09.100 picked a

01:02:09.820 victim, they

01:02:10.880 don't really

01:02:11.520 care what

01:02:12.080 their family

01:02:12.440 are like

01:02:12.980 because they

01:02:13.640 know that

01:02:14.020 they've got

01:02:14.380 guns, they

01:02:14.840 have weapons,

01:02:15.480 they've got

01:02:15.820 a whole gang

01:02:16.560 of violent

01:02:17.280 people who

01:02:18.340 are going to

01:02:19.480 make threats

01:02:20.240 and intimidate

01:02:22.220 the girl.

01:02:22.940 Even just

01:02:23.520 threatening to

01:02:23.960 kill her dog,

01:02:24.580 kill her cat,

01:02:25.280 she's going to

01:02:25.960 be scared

01:02:26.360 enough to

01:02:27.480 go along and

01:02:28.300 do whatever

01:02:28.800 they say.

01:02:30.220 Especially if

01:02:30.920 there's part of

01:02:31.780 a love element

01:02:32.540 in it as well

01:02:33.060 where she feels

01:02:33.660 like she's

01:02:34.060 loving them and

01:02:34.780 there's some

01:02:35.700 romantic relationship

01:02:36.420 going on.

01:02:37.020 But yes,

01:02:39.680 you're right,

01:02:40.140 there are a

01:02:44.040 lot of

01:02:44.260 victims from

01:02:45.000 working class

01:02:45.700 families.

01:02:49.880 A lot of

01:02:51.480 families that

01:02:51.940 live in close

01:02:52.440 proximity to a

01:02:53.300 lot of these

01:02:53.820 groups where

01:02:55.200 the gangs

01:02:55.620 live, it's

01:02:59.080 impacted them

01:02:59.600 a lot harder

01:03:00.200 and male

01:03:02.240 family members

01:03:02.880 within groups

01:03:03.380 have been

01:03:04.240 through the

01:03:04.520 similar school

01:03:05.360 system with

01:03:05.960 similar problems

01:03:07.740 with gangs.

01:03:08.400 They've been

01:03:09.140 beaten up,

01:03:09.760 attacked and

01:03:11.120 stabbed for

01:03:12.680 having a

01:03:13.000 Muslim

01:03:13.180 girlfriend.

01:03:14.260 That type

01:03:14.740 of problem

01:03:16.960 which all

01:03:17.880 links into

01:03:18.320 the same

01:03:18.760 issue.

01:03:19.980 Or they've

01:03:20.500 been got

01:03:22.720 into drug

01:03:23.320 dealing at a

01:03:24.000 very young

01:03:24.340 age by

01:03:25.460 these gangs

01:03:25.980 who use

01:03:26.540 them as

01:03:26.760 runners to

01:03:27.720 deal drugs.

01:03:30.260 Whether their

01:03:31.420 voices are not

01:03:32.040 being heard,

01:03:32.680 perhaps they're

01:03:34.280 not as

01:03:34.580 articulate,

01:03:35.800 perhaps they

01:03:36.260 can't express

01:03:36.880 things, or

01:03:39.380 perhaps people

01:03:39.720 just don't want

01:03:40.160 to listen to

01:03:40.560 them or

01:03:40.920 they're too

01:03:41.300 scared to

01:03:42.260 speak out.

01:03:43.960 And also a

01:03:44.480 lot of them

01:03:44.820 do think that

01:03:46.120 they are racist

01:03:46.800 because the

01:03:47.720 police are

01:03:48.060 telling them

01:03:48.420 they're racist.

01:03:49.560 I heard a

01:03:50.060 story a couple

01:03:50.480 of weeks ago

01:03:50.960 of a survivor

01:03:51.880 very recently

01:03:52.640 who the

01:03:54.780 police have

01:03:55.200 said she

01:03:55.560 can't give

01:03:55.960 evidence because

01:03:56.780 she's racist

01:03:57.540 because she

01:03:59.280 called her

01:03:59.820 perpetrators

01:04:00.480 packies in

01:04:01.920 the interview.

01:04:02.680 in the video

01:04:03.380 interview.

01:04:06.240 So just

01:04:07.000 saying that

01:04:07.440 word.

01:04:07.920 Saying that

01:04:08.300 word has

01:04:09.720 meant that

01:04:10.160 her evidence

01:04:10.560 has been

01:04:10.820 thrown out.

01:04:12.100 And look,

01:04:12.460 I mean,

01:04:12.760 it's a racial

01:04:13.620 slur, but

01:04:14.760 as I said

01:04:15.220 earlier in

01:04:15.640 the interview,

01:04:16.520 if you've

01:04:17.700 gone through

01:04:18.420 the experience

01:04:18.980 that she's

01:04:19.340 gone through,

01:04:20.080 I mean,

01:04:20.460 you can

01:04:20.800 understand

01:04:21.220 somebody

01:04:21.640 might harbour

01:04:22.080 some prejudice.

01:04:22.920 I wouldn't

01:04:24.040 put it past

01:04:24.560 myself to

01:04:25.200 harbour prejudice

01:04:25.940 against people

01:04:26.600 who targeted

01:04:27.220 me on the

01:04:28.320 basis of my

01:04:29.000 identity,

01:04:29.620 called me

01:04:30.120 Jewish this

01:04:31.440 and whatever.

01:04:31.980 I'm not

01:04:36.080 saying people

01:04:36.860 should go

01:04:37.180 around calling

01:04:37.600 each other

01:04:37.880 packies,

01:04:38.420 I'm not

01:04:38.660 saying that,

01:04:39.240 but if you're

01:04:40.540 the police

01:04:40.960 officer in

01:04:41.460 that situation,

01:04:41.980 you've got to

01:04:42.400 have some

01:04:42.860 idea of

01:04:43.300 balance in

01:04:44.180 the situation.

01:04:45.000 that's crazy.

01:04:47.560 That's crazy.

01:04:49.560 But I think

01:04:49.900 again,

01:04:50.320 it's this,

01:04:51.800 if you don't

01:04:53.560 deal with

01:04:54.860 the far left

01:04:55.440 who are

01:04:56.000 branding,

01:04:57.320 it's like

01:04:57.660 you've been

01:04:57.900 tarred and

01:04:58.260 feathered.

01:04:58.740 If you've been

01:04:59.060 tarred and

01:04:59.360 feathered as

01:04:59.700 being racist,

01:05:01.280 gammon,

01:05:02.000 Nazi,

01:05:02.700 fascist,

01:05:03.400 far right,

01:05:04.620 then you are

01:05:06.080 rubbish,

01:05:06.660 basically.

01:05:07.220 So if you

01:05:08.920 don't deal

01:05:09.360 with this

01:05:10.060 issue that

01:05:10.740 we've got

01:05:11.040 this problem,

01:05:11.740 we've got

01:05:12.100 this fake

01:05:12.640 branding of

01:05:13.320 people and

01:05:14.520 demonisation of

01:05:16.020 white people

01:05:16.580 who are

01:05:17.180 raising this

01:05:17.940 issue,

01:05:18.780 then you're

01:05:19.400 going to get

01:05:19.700 people afraid

01:05:20.280 to deal with

01:05:20.880 it, and

01:05:21.120 that does

01:05:21.520 include police

01:05:22.020 officers.

01:05:22.940 They're going

01:05:23.200 to be afraid

01:05:23.620 of being

01:05:23.840 tarred and

01:05:24.180 feathered.

01:05:25.160 The judiciary

01:05:25.940 are going to

01:05:26.280 be afraid of

01:05:26.720 being tarred

01:05:27.040 and feathered,

01:05:27.440 so they're

01:05:27.720 not going to

01:05:28.040 want to

01:05:28.260 touch it.

01:05:29.480 Politicians

01:05:29.840 are going to

01:05:30.140 be afraid of

01:05:30.700 being tarred

01:05:31.280 and feathered.

01:05:31.700 They're not

01:05:32.100 going to want

01:05:32.900 to be involved

01:05:34.180 in dealing

01:05:34.600 with this,

01:05:34.960 because it's

01:05:35.620 such hot potato

01:05:36.620 at the moment,

01:05:37.120 they're going

01:05:37.360 to want to

01:05:37.780 pass it on

01:05:38.160 to somebody

01:05:38.460 else.

01:05:39.400 But it's

01:05:43.320 to investigate

01:05:43.680 and to

01:05:44.140 charge rapists

01:05:45.480 and the

01:05:46.100 people who

01:05:46.500 commit these

01:05:46.900 awful crimes.

01:05:47.820 And it's

01:05:48.460 not hard.

01:05:49.180 All they've

01:05:49.480 got to do

01:05:49.780 is say it's

01:05:50.200 a racially

01:05:50.500 and religiously

01:05:51.080 aggravated

01:05:51.560 rape.

01:05:53.500 The perpetrators

01:05:54.420 are the racists.

01:05:55.580 That's all

01:05:56.040 they've got to

01:05:56.300 do.

01:05:57.560 And we

01:05:57.860 don't.

01:05:59.020 And also

01:05:59.520 equally,

01:06:00.380 the other

01:06:00.800 thing,

01:06:01.220 even if you

01:06:02.480 are racist,

01:06:03.020 you can still

01:06:03.420 be raped.

01:06:04.200 You can be

01:06:04.720 racist and

01:06:05.420 be raped.

01:06:06.240 Those are

01:06:06.740 not mutually

01:06:07.240 exclusive things.

01:06:08.580 So even

01:06:09.160 if someone

01:06:09.520 is,

01:06:10.020 you know,

01:06:11.000 use the

01:06:11.380 word

01:06:11.540 packy,

01:06:11.960 she may

01:06:15.100 have used

01:06:15.500 that word

01:06:15.800 because they

01:06:16.220 were using

01:06:16.560 that word

01:06:16.820 about themselves.

01:06:17.700 So I don't

01:06:17.980 know where

01:06:18.420 she's got

01:06:18.720 that from.

01:06:19.460 I just

01:06:20.020 listen to

01:06:21.380 everything you're

01:06:22.100 telling us

01:06:22.520 and I

01:06:25.420 have no

01:06:25.840 words.

01:06:26.620 I have no

01:06:27.380 words.

01:06:28.100 And I

01:06:29.440 don't understand.

01:06:30.280 I think a lot

01:06:30.880 of people would

01:06:31.440 feel that way

01:06:32.100 listening and

01:06:33.040 watching.

01:06:34.540 How is this

01:06:35.400 possible?

01:06:35.940 How have we

01:06:36.600 got to the

01:06:37.060 situation?

01:06:38.140 And I suppose

01:06:38.760 at some level

01:06:39.960 the question

01:06:40.420 that a lot of

01:06:40.840 people would be

01:06:41.220 asking,

01:06:41.520 and I

01:06:41.780 know that

01:06:42.060 you work

01:06:42.440 with the

01:06:43.660 government

01:06:43.980 towards it.

01:06:45.940 How do we

01:06:46.660 solve this?

01:06:48.800 I keep

01:06:49.260 talking about

01:06:49.980 it.

01:06:51.560 You know,

01:06:52.640 there are

01:06:53.280 things that

01:06:53.620 are worrying

01:06:53.920 me like

01:06:54.320 these diversity,

01:06:57.320 inclusion and

01:06:57.920 equality panels

01:06:59.940 that are being

01:07:00.480 set up in

01:07:00.980 every company

01:07:01.860 and every

01:07:02.200 business.

01:07:03.980 I think we

01:07:04.760 need to be

01:07:05.640 aware that

01:07:06.040 they must be

01:07:07.020 balanced.

01:07:08.080 They must

01:07:08.440 include the

01:07:09.820 anti-white,

01:07:10.280 anti-Western

01:07:10.740 racism as

01:07:11.460 a form of

01:07:12.160 discrimination

01:07:12.900 that needs

01:07:13.820 to be

01:07:14.140 countered as

01:07:14.860 well as all

01:07:15.260 the other

01:07:15.560 forms of

01:07:16.160 discrimination.

01:07:18.020 You know,

01:07:18.340 we need to

01:07:18.920 not make it

01:07:19.580 a crime for

01:07:20.680 someone to

01:07:21.080 say all

01:07:21.940 lives matter

01:07:22.660 and for

01:07:25.980 people not

01:07:26.540 to be

01:07:26.820 persecuted and

01:07:27.580 attacked,

01:07:28.300 even for

01:07:29.060 saying white

01:07:29.560 lives matter.

01:07:31.220 You know,

01:07:31.880 when I saw

01:07:32.400 that banner

01:07:32.860 going over

01:07:33.680 the stadium,

01:07:34.620 I can't

01:07:35.140 help, you

01:07:35.900 know, I

01:07:36.300 didn't feel

01:07:36.660 loved.

01:07:37.020 that was

01:07:38.040 my reaction,

01:07:38.640 I felt

01:07:38.860 loved.

01:07:39.620 And for

01:07:41.140 people who

01:07:41.620 have maybe

01:07:42.860 just recently

01:07:44.620 discovered that

01:07:46.100 one of their

01:07:46.840 family members

01:07:47.560 believes that

01:07:48.180 all white

01:07:48.580 lives matter

01:07:49.180 or that

01:07:49.480 white lives

01:07:49.860 matter,

01:07:50.700 and now

01:07:51.020 one of the

01:07:53.660 colleagues in

01:07:54.260 their department

01:07:55.940 believes that

01:07:57.500 white lives

01:07:57.860 matter, you

01:07:58.360 know, and

01:07:58.800 they're shocked

01:08:00.500 and horrified

01:08:01.260 by that fact,

01:08:03.340 you know,

01:08:03.620 by that belief.

01:08:04.400 hopefully

01:08:05.340 listening to

01:08:05.860 people like

01:08:06.340 me, listening

01:08:06.860 to interviews

01:08:07.400 like this,

01:08:08.800 they'll

01:08:09.060 understand that

01:08:10.460 that's not

01:08:10.860 coming from a

01:08:11.400 place of

01:08:11.780 hatred or

01:08:12.240 malice and

01:08:12.820 it's not a

01:08:13.280 counter attack

01:08:16.220 on the

01:08:16.680 Black Lives

01:08:17.180 Matter movement,

01:08:18.140 it's a

01:08:18.940 parallel

01:08:20.220 justice movement,

01:08:23.160 you know,

01:08:23.440 the justice for

01:08:24.460 the white

01:08:25.380 victims of

01:08:26.000 racism is a

01:08:27.140 parallel movement

01:08:27.880 to the justice

01:08:29.020 for black

01:08:29.520 victims of

01:08:30.260 racism, and

01:08:31.900 we can do

01:08:32.260 that together

01:08:32.760 and we can

01:08:33.300 be united

01:08:34.100 together, we

01:08:34.660 don't have to

01:08:35.180 be split

01:08:36.140 apart or

01:08:36.860 divided in

01:08:38.280 that, we

01:08:38.600 can all be

01:08:39.580 supportive of

01:08:40.640 each other.

01:08:42.280 Yeah, it's

01:08:43.020 very interesting

01:08:43.540 you say that,

01:08:44.320 and then, you

01:08:44.820 know, again,

01:08:46.120 we work in a

01:08:47.600 very woke

01:08:48.040 industry and I

01:08:48.740 see people

01:08:49.240 sharing books

01:08:49.960 like, you

01:08:50.260 know.

01:08:50.300 We used to

01:08:50.900 work in a

01:08:51.400 very woke

01:08:51.920 industry.

01:08:52.520 I haven't

01:08:52.740 been offered

01:08:53.100 one gig

01:08:53.620 for the last

01:08:54.180 few minutes

01:08:54.560 anyway, it

01:08:55.020 doesn't matter.

01:08:56.440 Fuck them.

01:08:57.260 You're in

01:08:57.580 high demand.

01:08:59.680 In other ways.

01:09:01.000 But, so, for

01:09:01.960 instance, sharing

01:09:02.540 books, you

01:09:02.940 know, like

01:09:03.200 White Fragility,

01:09:04.260 you know, and

01:09:05.080 spreading, you

01:09:05.760 know, the

01:09:06.360 memes, it

01:09:07.640 doesn't help,

01:09:08.480 does it, really?

01:09:09.920 That particular

01:09:10.880 book, I

01:09:11.400 haven't read it,

01:09:12.400 so I probably

01:09:12.940 can't comment on

01:09:13.660 it, but from

01:09:14.100 what I've

01:09:14.460 heard, it's

01:09:17.040 upholding what

01:09:19.540 I would call

01:09:19.860 grooming gang

01:09:20.360 ideology, so

01:09:21.380 it's upholding

01:09:22.320 the idea that

01:09:23.080 white people are

01:09:23.680 trash, that white

01:09:24.560 people should be

01:09:25.280 punished.

01:09:26.460 That's from

01:09:27.120 what I've heard

01:09:27.540 of the book.

01:09:28.200 It's original

01:09:28.700 sin.

01:09:29.000 Yeah, that it's

01:09:30.320 an original sin

01:09:30.980 to be born

01:09:31.400 white.

01:09:31.920 It's something

01:09:32.420 you cannot

01:09:32.920 change, you

01:09:33.420 cannot get

01:09:33.820 rid of, and

01:09:34.720 that you have

01:09:35.260 to atone for

01:09:35.840 that in

01:09:36.660 service to

01:09:37.440 other people,

01:09:38.100 in service to

01:09:38.660 people of

01:09:39.060 colour.

01:09:40.660 And that is

01:09:41.380 basically

01:09:41.720 grooming

01:09:42.000 ideology.

01:09:42.400 ideology.

01:09:43.520 See, this is

01:09:44.060 why, you

01:09:46.100 see, the

01:09:46.380 thing with the

01:09:46.840 White Lives

01:09:47.280 Matter thing

01:09:47.860 is that if

01:09:49.800 it was being

01:09:50.280 used in the

01:09:50.940 way that you

01:09:51.360 use it, I

01:09:52.720 agree with

01:09:53.240 you, but I

01:09:54.280 think there

01:09:54.760 are also

01:09:55.200 people who

01:09:55.720 use it as

01:09:56.460 a kind of

01:09:57.040 FU to the

01:09:58.040 Black Lives

01:09:58.520 Matter thing

01:09:59.740 as well.

01:10:00.900 And this is

01:10:02.480 the reason that

01:10:03.340 we've opposed

01:10:03.940 identity politics

01:10:05.020 from the start,

01:10:05.820 because once you

01:10:06.440 start going down

01:10:07.080 this rabbit hole

01:10:07.760 of going, this

01:10:09.320 is a special

01:10:09.820 group, and

01:10:10.360 this is a

01:10:10.800 special group,

01:10:11.400 and that's a

01:10:11.860 special group,

01:10:12.500 but these

01:10:13.460 people, they're

01:10:13.940 not special at

01:10:14.600 all.

01:10:14.800 In fact, then

01:10:16.400 you get into

01:10:17.040 trouble, because

01:10:17.840 eventually, you

01:10:18.800 know, Helen Dale,

01:10:19.540 who we had on

01:10:20.060 the show, you

01:10:20.720 know, she said,

01:10:21.540 I remember

01:10:21.960 saying this in

01:10:22.620 the 90s, you

01:10:23.580 know, if you're

01:10:23.920 going to have

01:10:24.260 gay pride, at

01:10:25.700 some point,

01:10:26.260 someone's going

01:10:26.700 to go with

01:10:27.280 straight pride.

01:10:28.840 And this is

01:10:29.340 the problem with

01:10:30.060 all of this, and

01:10:31.240 this is the far

01:10:32.040 left that you

01:10:32.500 talk about.

01:10:33.040 That's where it

01:10:33.500 all comes from,

01:10:34.200 this ideology of

01:10:35.820 getting everybody

01:10:37.080 into their own

01:10:37.680 little group, and

01:10:38.340 now white people

01:10:39.060 need to advocate

01:10:39.660 for themselves.

01:10:40.700 That's not, you

01:10:41.520 know, you talk

01:10:41.880 about history, not

01:10:42.760 a healthy recipe.

01:10:43.620 No, no.

01:10:44.180 Not a healthy

01:10:44.600 recipe.

01:10:45.560 We need to go

01:10:46.100 back to this

01:10:46.720 idea that people

01:10:47.460 are individuals,

01:10:48.420 you know, and

01:10:49.080 you can be racist

01:10:49.720 against anyone,

01:10:50.680 including white

01:10:51.340 people, but this

01:10:52.840 idea of pushing

01:10:53.600 everybody into

01:10:54.340 their own group,

01:10:55.360 that's not going

01:10:55.880 to work.

01:10:56.180 So, you know, it's

01:10:57.760 obvious that America

01:10:58.560 hasn't been taught

01:10:59.160 about the white

01:10:59.640 slave trade, but

01:11:01.140 even in the UK, a

01:11:03.000 lot of people have

01:11:03.660 never heard of the

01:11:04.260 white slave trade,

01:11:04.960 they've never heard

01:11:05.400 of the Berber slave

01:11:06.700 trade, and the, you

01:11:09.500 know, the Barbary

01:11:09.900 slave trade, and the

01:11:10.620 Berbers in North

01:11:11.400 Africa that attacked

01:11:12.620 Europe for centuries,

01:11:14.360 taking slaves away, and

01:11:16.460 to be trafficked

01:11:17.140 throughout Northern

01:11:19.040 Africa into Asia, and

01:11:23.380 the Arab slave trade.

01:11:24.540 You know, white slaves

01:11:26.820 were very valuable to

01:11:27.800 them, they were seen

01:11:29.120 as exotic, prized

01:11:30.920 possessions, and taken

01:11:33.060 into harems, and, you

01:11:35.580 know, sold and used,

01:11:38.780 and, you know, so that

01:11:39.900 has been happening, and

01:11:41.060 white people have been

01:11:42.140 exploited and enslaved.

01:11:46.340 So, to say that white

01:11:47.680 people don't understand

01:11:48.620 it, don't know what it's

01:11:50.680 like, you know, I've got a

01:11:51.900 friend that I know through

01:11:53.140 Twitter, and then

01:11:54.080 read her book, and she

01:11:55.740 was trafficked to

01:11:56.440 Northern Africa.

01:12:00.160 My grandfather was

01:12:01.280 taken to Germany as a

01:12:02.280 slave laborer.

01:12:03.220 The way we talk about

01:12:04.600 slavery is just completely

01:12:05.740 historical, and we don't

01:12:07.760 take into account the

01:12:09.080 Middle Eastern Arab slave

01:12:11.000 traders took more black

01:12:12.280 slaves out of Africa than

01:12:14.180 the colonial powers did.

01:12:16.360 We don't talk about the

01:12:17.320 fact that slavery has been

01:12:18.320 a constant through history.

01:12:20.220 Look, people in my

01:12:21.420 country, in Russia, were

01:12:22.620 serfs until like 1870 or

01:12:24.880 something, you know, as I

01:12:26.800 said, slave laborers in

01:12:28.120 Germany, like 70 years

01:12:30.240 ago, right?

01:12:31.040 The way we talk about it

01:12:32.140 is ridiculous, and we

01:12:33.800 pretend that it's this

01:12:34.980 unique moment in history,

01:12:36.380 when in fact right now is

01:12:38.140 a unique moment in

01:12:38.820 history, even though there

01:12:40.200 is more slaves than ever

01:12:41.520 in history.

01:12:41.540 Having said that about

01:12:42.340 taking statues down, you

01:12:44.700 know, I did post out a

01:12:45.560 tweet that, you know, I

01:12:47.020 was actually quite, I

01:12:49.080 quite enjoyed seeing the

01:12:50.920 group take down the

01:12:51.720 Colston, so the Edward

01:12:53.160 Colston statue, because he

01:12:55.580 was a known slave trader,

01:12:57.020 and, you know, if you don't

01:12:59.380 understand the history of

01:13:00.240 Bristol, a lot of money

01:13:02.200 came through the slave trade

01:13:04.980 and to making a lot of the

01:13:06.360 schools, a lot of the

01:13:07.120 buildings, a lot of the

01:13:07.960 town hall type places, and

01:13:10.060 named after Edward Colston,

01:13:11.940 who did a lot of philanthropy

01:13:13.240 and a lot of good things as

01:13:14.220 well, but the people

01:13:20.060 wanting to, people in

01:13:21.380 Bristol wanting to

01:13:22.320 distance themselves from

01:13:23.540 that history and wanting

01:13:24.540 to make that break and make

01:13:25.940 that symbolic gesture of we

01:13:28.220 don't support slavery, we

01:13:30.340 do not want that to be a

01:13:32.680 symbol of who we are as a

01:13:34.800 country, I can support that,

01:13:37.680 and I did, you know, as an

01:13:41.440 artistic creative act, you

01:13:43.760 know, in your industry, you

01:13:45.440 could see, you know, these

01:13:46.360 is a long tradition of this

01:13:47.740 type of thing, I'm not

01:13:49.560 talking about taking down

01:13:51.580 every statue in the whole

01:13:52.580 country, this is a very

01:13:53.840 different issue, but in

01:13:55.540 selected cases where it's a

01:13:57.440 public demonstration of a

01:14:00.720 cleansing, if you like, of

01:14:02.200 getting rid of part of the

01:14:03.940 past that we no longer feel

01:14:05.640 part of and we want to

01:14:06.860 reject, we want to move away

01:14:08.160 from, I can see that that

01:14:10.220 could be healing for a lot of

01:14:11.480 people, you know, but what do

01:14:13.600 you replace it with, you do

01:14:14.760 not replace it with white

01:14:16.640 trash, a concrete statue,

01:14:19.600 did you see the one that

01:14:20.460 they replaced it with?

01:14:21.340 No, no, no, it's, it's a

01:14:24.500 Barry Gowen, it's a white

01:14:25.780 overweight guy, oh, that

01:14:27.540 one, oh, that's perfect,

01:14:28.960 right, yeah, yeah, so you

01:14:31.200 don't treat it, you don't

01:14:32.700 replace it with an insulting,

01:14:35.760 disrespectful, hateful piece

01:14:38.200 of art that is treating

01:14:40.440 people like trash, you don't

01:14:42.640 replace it with that, that

01:14:44.320 you respect everybody and you

01:14:46.380 value everybody, that's what

01:14:49.220 you need to replace, it was

01:14:50.220 something that shows that we

01:14:51.920 are all important, yes, and

01:14:54.660 we are, every life is

01:14:56.220 precious.

01:14:57.740 As you know, we have one more

01:14:59.140 question that we always ask

01:15:00.400 our guests at the end, but

01:15:01.540 before we do, I just wanted to

01:15:02.860 tell you that very briefly, the

01:15:04.660 story of how I first really

01:15:06.420 kind of became, we both, I

01:15:08.360 think, became awake to this

01:15:09.760 issue in the way that we did

01:15:11.340 because I read a little bit

01:15:13.120 about it and then I saw Sarah

01:15:15.020 Champion's article, the MP for

01:15:18.440 Rotherham, and she wrote an

01:15:20.360 article, I think, in one of the

01:15:21.580 tabloids about this, about this

01:15:23.680 issue, and the article was quite

01:15:27.040 sensible, I thought, based on

01:15:28.460 reading it, but she got horrible

01:15:30.140 backlash, and this was probably a

01:15:33.100 year into us doing trigonometry,

01:15:34.460 and I emailed her to invite her

01:15:36.160 onto the show, and she replied

01:15:38.340 back saying she didn't feel

01:15:39.400 comfortable talking about it

01:15:41.320 anymore, and that's when I

01:15:43.380 went, okay, look, we're

01:15:45.100 comedians, we're bothered about

01:15:46.300 political correctness because

01:15:47.420 it's a nuisance to us, and, you

01:15:49.100 know, at some kind of conceptual

01:15:50.600 level, we can think about, you

01:15:53.980 know, it's a principle of

01:15:55.240 wetness, there's all of this

01:15:56.360 bullshit, really, you know,

01:15:58.260 abstract bullshit, but then when I

01:16:00.360 got that email from her and I was

01:16:01.580 talking to Frances on the phone

01:16:02.680 about it, I was like, no, no,

01:16:04.460 political correctness is

01:16:06.880 preventing a member of

01:16:08.600 parliament from standing up for

01:16:11.120 people like you, and that's

01:16:14.520 when I was like, you know, this

01:16:16.340 is a serious problem that we've

01:16:18.040 got here, and it's very

01:16:20.260 difficult to talk about, and

01:16:22.340 it's, you know, for an MP to be

01:16:23.920 scared about it, tells you

01:16:24.940 everything about it, so I just

01:16:26.600 want to say on behalf of

01:16:27.560 everybody who's listened and

01:16:28.680 watched this, how courageous you

01:16:30.260 are and how much we appreciate

01:16:31.140 you coming on the show.

01:16:31.860 Thank you, and same to you as

01:16:33.560 well, you're very courageous,

01:16:35.440 and I really appreciate you.

01:16:36.460 We're just stupid, Ella.

01:16:37.900 We really haven't thought it

01:16:39.120 through.

01:16:39.500 I've got no idea what I've got

01:16:40.860 myself into.

01:16:42.860 It's fine, but yeah, really,

01:16:45.180 really appreciate that.

01:16:45.440 Thank you so much, and all power

01:16:47.700 to you, and I hope the work that

01:16:48.820 you do with the government leads

01:16:50.020 to the positive change, so maybe

01:16:51.340 actually before we ask your last

01:16:52.640 question, one thing maybe that is

01:16:54.780 good for us to ask is, if

01:16:55.980 anyone's watched this or they've

01:16:57.100 listened to this, you know, if

01:16:58.920 they've been affected by it, what

01:17:00.280 advice would you give them?

01:17:01.300 If they know someone who's been

01:17:02.700 affected by it, what advice would

01:17:04.060 you give them?

01:17:04.740 If they don't know, if they're not

01:17:05.860 affected personally and a family

01:17:07.680 member isn't, but they just want

01:17:09.420 to do something positive to, you

01:17:11.820 know, to prevent it from happening

01:17:12.840 in the future, to help people who've

01:17:14.040 been through it, what can people do?

01:17:16.360 I would say to all the people who

01:17:18.540 are feeling like I am right now, who

01:17:20.820 are feeling doubly attacked, not just

01:17:23.720 attacked from their attackers, but

01:17:26.340 also from the left, I would say hang

01:17:28.720 in there, wait, be patient, don't

01:17:32.360 retaliate, don't think you have to go

01:17:34.460 and fight for your country, fight for

01:17:36.400 whatever, don't be violent, don't, you

01:17:39.140 know, set up armies and put yourself

01:17:41.840 at risk, and be patient, hang in there

01:17:44.980 because the government will respond, the

01:17:47.600 police will respond, they will wake up,

01:17:49.820 and I do have faith that they will

01:17:53.180 understand that this is far-left

01:17:54.500 terrorism, you know, as Antifa's been

01:17:58.140 designated the terrorist organization

01:17:59.860 in America, eventually that is going

01:18:03.860 to happen here, for people like you,

01:18:07.000 don't despair, you're going to be in

01:18:09.440 demand because you know how to create

01:18:12.000 great education, great content to

01:18:14.180 counter a lot of this far-left

01:18:15.500 extremism, whether that's in schools or

01:18:18.220 comedy clubs or whatever you do, it's

01:18:21.260 going to be needed, just hang in there.

01:18:24.680 Thank you.

01:18:25.320 Hang in there.

01:18:26.340 And Ella, the last question that we

01:18:28.340 always end our interviews with is, what's

01:18:30.800 the one thing that we're not talking

01:18:32.160 about, but we really should be?

01:18:35.860 I think we're not talking about how to

01:18:38.720 recover from spiritual abuse, and that

01:18:42.400 there can be recovery, and that you can

01:18:44.420 heal, and that people can get out of it

01:18:49.400 and get up again.

01:18:52.320 You know, you can be knocked down many,

01:18:54.680 many times, you can be knocked down in

01:18:56.700 many ways, but you can always get up

01:18:59.400 again.

01:19:00.780 And that's a really, really powerful

01:19:02.600 message to an interviewer.

01:19:04.600 Ella, thank you so much for coming.

01:19:06.580 If people want to find you on social

01:19:08.280 media, is it Parler that you're on now?

01:19:10.340 Yeah, well, I'm on Twitter, but I'm not

01:19:12.680 active on there, but there's a lot they

01:19:14.140 can read on my pinned tweets.

01:19:15.560 There's lots of threads on there they

01:19:16.580 can read about all the different

01:19:18.040 messages that I'm putting out.

01:19:19.800 But yeah, I'm on Parler now.

01:19:21.220 Ella Hill, Dr. Ella Hill.

01:19:22.720 Dr. Ella Hill, well, thank you so much

01:19:24.520 for coming on.

01:19:25.560 And thank you very much for watching.

01:19:27.720 It's been a really emotional episode.

01:19:30.920 And just to focus back on that, if at

01:19:33.620 any point, if you've been affected by

01:19:35.400 these issues, or if something has

01:19:37.680 happened to you along these lines,

01:19:39.600 please talk to somebody about it.

01:19:41.220 And we will hopefully see you soon

01:19:44.540 with another fantastic episode.

01:19:46.160 Thank you very much.

01:19:46.980 You went really down and then straight

01:19:48.600 back up again at the end.

01:19:49.760 You were just like, you've been

01:19:50.620 affected by this.

01:19:51.880 We'll see you in another brilliant

01:19:52.960 episode.

01:19:55.120 Thanks very much.

01:19:56.100 Thank you so much.

01:19:57.000 Thank you.

01:19:57.680 Thank you.

01:19:58.680 Thank you.

01:19:59.680 Thank you.

01:20:00.680 Thank you.

01:20:01.680 Thank you.

01:20:02.680 Thank you.

01:20:03.680 Thank you.

01:20:04.680 Thank you.

01:20:05.680 Thank you.

01:20:06.680 Thank you.

01:20:07.680 Thank you.

01:20:08.680 Thank you.

01:20:09.680 Thank you.

01:20:10.680 Your full Great Outdoors Comedy Festival

01:20:16.560 lineup is here on September 11th through

01:20:19.440 13th at Arendelle Park.

01:20:21.400 Three nights, five shows, huge laughs.

01:20:24.560 September 11th through 13th.

01:20:26.200 Buy tickets now at

01:20:27.520 greatoutdoorscomedyfestival.com.

01:20:29.760 Thank you.

01:20:30.680 Thank you.

01:20:30.800 Bye.

01:20:30.900 Thank you.

01:20:31.320 Bye.

01:20:43.440 Bye.

01:20:45.480 Bye.

01:20:49.620 Bye.

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TRIGGERnometry - July 19, 2020

I Am a Grooming Gang Survivor： My Story

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