TRIGGERnometry - I Proved The Police Don't Investigate Crime

00:00:00.880 So, the bike was both in the view of Big Ben, Parliament, and the Met.

00:00:05.820 It was chained up, left there for two days, and by the evening of the second day, it was stolen.

00:00:12.440 I got a text from them saying, sorry, we are closing your case, we're not reviewing CCTV evidence, we're not going to do basically anything.

00:00:19.740 I gave their story to the Telegraph, and suddenly, the Met gets back and says, oh no, no, no, we are going to look at the CCTV footage.

00:00:27.220 By the way, they actually never got a hold of the CCTV footage at all.

00:00:31.600 So, they said they would look at it, but didn't?

00:00:33.800 Nothing happened. It's not just bikes, not just phones.

00:00:37.320 I've talked to people who've had their cars stolen, and please haven't checked CCTV footage.

00:00:42.060 Less than 1% of these cases end up with a suspect identified.

00:00:46.300 Basically, every part of our system is completely and utterly broken.

00:00:50.900 Lawrence, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:52.480 Thanks very much for having me.

00:00:53.240 Yeah, it's great to have you on.

00:00:54.340 You've got lots to talk about, but you particularly crush crime, which you're part of, is something I want to talk about,

00:01:00.980 because you did a video last year, I think this was, which went super viral and proved a lot of the things that most people who live,

00:01:09.200 particularly in big cities in this country and in other countries, frankly, all instinctively feel,

00:01:14.300 which is there's a lot of low-level crime, like theft, burglary, etc., that is simply not being investigated by the police.

00:01:20.180 Tell us what you did and what happened.

00:01:21.740 Yeah, so in fact, that feeling that you're describing is exactly what got me to start up crush crime as a campaign,

00:01:30.960 which is about this time actually last year.

00:01:34.560 I was talking to friends of mine, and I just noticed that pretty much everyone I'd talked to in a few weeks

00:01:40.600 had had or knew someone who had had their phone stolen or their bike stolen,

00:01:45.180 and the same story kept coming out.

00:01:46.400 Police were doing nothing, there was nothing happening, and then when I started digging into the stats,

00:01:51.360 it's extremely, extremely concerning, and there's not much political attention at all on this.

00:01:57.220 So one of the ways, actually, just actually the week after I'd launched Crush Crime,

00:02:01.940 I put out a video in which we had taken a bike, it was about a 150-pound bike, done up to look as nice as we possibly could make something like that look.

00:02:13.200 Actually, the bike shop that we bought it from helped us because they knew what we were doing,

00:02:16.540 and they were like, please bring some attention to this issue, do something.

00:02:19.720 And we bought a quite cheap chain for a bike, and we locked it up outside the Met.

00:02:29.600 So between, for anyone who doesn't know, the Met's headquarters is just a few doors down from Parliament,

00:02:36.260 so the bike was both in the view of Big Ben, Parliament, and the Met.

00:02:41.400 It was chained up, left there for two days, and by the evening of the second day, it was stolen.

00:02:47.720 We had put two air-tagged GPS signals on it, one easy to find, and one less easy to find,

00:02:55.380 so that if they found it, we thought they'd think of themselves as very great.

00:02:58.840 They found neither of them at any point.

00:03:01.300 It was taken. I called the police and reported it stolen.

00:03:06.580 I told them, look, here is where it is. There is quite a lot of CCTV in that area.

00:03:11.620 You should be able to find something on this.

00:03:13.040 The next morning, only about 12 hours later or something, probably 18 hours later,

00:03:19.160 I got a text from them saying, from the Metropolitan Police, saying,

00:03:22.940 sorry, we are closing your case.

00:03:25.560 We're not reviewing CCTV evidence. We're not going to do basically anything.

00:03:29.200 We recorded the video of me outside the Met, pointing out the CCTV cameras,

00:03:35.160 and I gave the story to the Telegraph, and in the intervening period between filming that video,

00:03:41.520 giving it to the Telegraph, the Telegraph called the Met,

00:03:45.080 and suddenly the Met gets back and says,

00:03:47.740 oh, no, no, no, we are going to look at the CCTV footage.

00:03:50.880 Don't worry about it.

00:03:51.760 So we released a video with me adding a quick piece on the end,

00:03:55.240 stating the Met is now going to do something.

00:03:57.720 If you actually want your bike looked into,

00:03:59.920 you actually need to go and report it to the national press,

00:04:03.080 and then they'll take notice.

00:04:05.360 By the way, they actually never got a hold of the CCTV footage at all.

00:04:09.580 So they said they would look at it, but didn't.

00:04:11.820 Nothing happened.

00:04:12.920 Several weeks later, I got contacted by a junior officer who said,

00:04:15.900 I don't quite know why your case was reopened.

00:04:18.680 Often we only do this if there's new evidence,

00:04:20.680 but I've seen it's just CCTV, and we don't intend to check that.

00:04:25.000 So it was literally just reopened because it was in the Telegraph,

00:04:27.640 or the Telegraph contact.

00:04:28.600 Yeah, and then after the story had taken its course,

00:04:31.820 they didn't follow up.

00:04:33.400 Nothing happened.

00:04:34.660 So covered in CCTV, bike stolen directly outside,

00:04:38.000 with GPS signal, I could tell them exactly where it was.

00:04:40.640 At one point it was on the move.

00:04:41.940 I said, well, look, it's on the move right now.

00:04:43.440 I can tell you where it is, so we don't intercept when it's on the move.

00:04:46.440 Okay, well, it stopped earlier at this building.

00:04:49.200 I think I'm pretty sure this guy's place is going back there later.

00:04:54.140 Well, is it a block of flats?

00:04:55.880 I think it might be.

00:04:56.780 Well, we can't look at it then.

00:04:58.140 So we won't get it on the move, won't look at the block of flats.

00:05:00.800 Because they basically state, we're not sure which one it might be in,

00:05:03.880 so I then asked, well, could you just put an officer outside

00:05:06.980 and look at the bike?

00:05:08.420 No, especially when he's coming nearby.

00:05:10.140 No, no, no, no, no, we can't do that.

00:05:12.740 Done.

00:05:12.940 So GPS signal, locked outside, the Mets' own headquarters,

00:05:17.340 covered in CCTV footage, and nothing's going to happen.

00:05:19.680 A lot of people, having heard that, who are not familiar with it,

00:05:23.220 will be like, that sounds a bit, probably they've just made a mistake

00:05:26.560 or something's happened.

00:05:27.960 But actually, when you start to speak to people who've experienced

00:05:32.120 this sort of low-level crime, or when you experience it yourself,

00:05:35.580 almost everyone that does has a complete shock as to the level

00:05:40.780 of disinterest, active disinterest the police now have

00:05:44.680 in investigating these kind of crimes.

00:05:47.140 I had my car broken into, same thing.

00:05:49.800 You have to contact the police, I think, by email.

00:05:52.700 You get an email back saying, here's a crime reference number.

00:05:55.480 Again, under a police camera, no investigation.

00:05:59.160 Did you find it quite shocking that that happened?

00:06:01.220 Were you a bit stunned, or were you expecting this at this point?

00:06:04.080 Well, I wasn't surprised that they didn't do much.

00:06:08.360 I did think they checked the CCTV footage.

00:06:11.220 I did think there would be something that would happen.

00:06:13.920 I suspected the story would go something like,

00:06:16.320 they look at the CCTV footage, it's a bit complicated,

00:06:18.980 they give it up.

00:06:20.000 I imagine something like that.

00:06:21.180 And multiple officers I talked to before I did this said,

00:06:24.700 oh, they'll look at the CCTV.

00:06:26.880 Even the officers who I was speaking to were shocked

00:06:30.020 when I told them they hadn't done anything with the CCTV.

00:06:32.260 And because all of these officers I was talking to work in other areas,

00:06:36.660 they were amazed that the system has fallen apart so badly

00:06:41.000 that nothing is getting checked at all.

00:06:43.520 And actually since, like you say, it's not just bikes, not just phones.

00:06:46.920 I've talked to people who've had their cars stolen,

00:06:49.540 and police haven't checked the CCTV footage.

00:06:52.060 Exactly the same.

00:06:52.700 Like this is, it's just completely open in so many ways,

00:06:57.660 which I got into a little bit of heated discussions on this a few times

00:07:01.360 as a result of the video.

00:07:02.700 But one thing I said was that there's a whole swathe of crime in this country

00:07:06.100 that is essentially legal.

00:07:08.140 If the police don't follow up with it, it is essentially legal.

00:07:11.700 We see the results of this in the stats that have just come out for this year.

00:07:17.020 Theft from the person is the highest on record,

00:07:19.780 the highest it's ever been as far as we've recorded.

00:07:23.540 And the reason, at least part of that reason,

00:07:26.320 is the fact that less than 1% of these cases end up with a suspect identified,

00:07:32.180 not even a conviction,

00:07:33.560 just identifying someone they suspect might have done it.

00:07:37.340 This is, if you have that,

00:07:39.340 what you end up with is a whole swathe of crime

00:07:42.020 because it literally pays to do this.

00:07:46.460 If you give it enough time, which is what we have,

00:07:48.380 it's just the situation will get worse and worse and worse and worse,

00:07:51.020 which is exactly what we see.

00:07:52.540 And Lawrence, the thing that's also interesting about this

00:07:55.200 is it's always a tiny percentage of people

00:07:58.500 who are responsible for the majority of these crimes, isn't it?

00:08:01.800 Yeah.

00:08:02.580 So this is like something which is true internationally

00:08:05.280 and it's particularly, and it's certainly true here.

00:08:08.000 Ministry of Justice figures show over the last 20 years

00:08:10.440 that about 9% of criminals are responsible for over half of all crime.

00:08:17.060 These are people that are cross-crime we call career criminals.

00:08:20.420 These are people with 15 or more offences to their name.

00:08:25.000 15 or more.

00:08:26.280 And that's just the offences that have been shown that they've done.

00:08:29.580 Of course, there's other stats showing that

00:08:31.580 for around about every one offence someone is convicted of,

00:08:35.380 they tend to have done about 25 others.

00:08:38.360 25?

00:08:38.800 Yeah.

00:08:39.760 So someone who's committed 15 has committed 25 times more than that.

00:08:43.480 Yeah.

00:08:43.920 And I mean, some of them will be doing thousands.

00:08:46.840 I mean, for example, there's a phone thief in London

00:08:50.600 who in one morning, he was arrested after just one morning of activity

00:08:53.800 where he'd, I think, taken about 100 phones.

00:08:56.140 We've started multiplying that up.

00:08:57.640 You know, they are doing serious numbers,

00:09:00.000 some of these people,

00:09:01.220 because there's serious money to be made.

00:09:03.000 You can make quite a good living.

00:09:04.100 I'm not advertising it.

00:09:05.160 You can make quite a good living stealing phones or stealing bikes.

00:09:08.660 And you know that if you get caught,

00:09:11.120 not much is going to happen to you.

00:09:13.080 In fact, many of them end up just back on the streets.

00:09:15.860 We'll talk about this because the non-investigation is one thing.

00:09:19.580 Yeah.

00:09:19.700 I mean, you went as close as you could do

00:09:22.420 to actually locking up the guy himself

00:09:24.260 and bringing him to the police.

00:09:25.820 But let's say someone by chance or by miracle

00:09:30.980 or for some reason does actually get caught stealing a phone.

00:09:36.100 They do it in front of a police officer.

00:09:37.440 A police officer goes bang.

00:09:39.320 What then happens to somebody who is a career criminal

00:09:41.740 who is stealing phones on the regular?

00:09:44.000 Well, this is why it must be incredibly frustrating

00:09:45.560 to be a good, competent police officer who really cares.

00:09:49.880 Because not much.

00:09:51.680 Not much happens at all.

00:09:53.940 We have cases.

00:09:55.200 So at Crush Crime, we actually have a case scraper now working

00:09:57.940 that pulls cases from across the country of career criminals.

00:10:01.420 These 10% of offenders responsible for over half of all crime

00:10:05.080 are more likely to avoid prison now than they were in 2007.

00:10:09.840 Many of them are simply not getting jail sentences at all.

00:10:12.500 Some of them are not getting sentences on their 300th offence.

00:10:16.800 This is like they've been caught 300 times.

00:10:18.940 Well, we're not able to establish a pattern, aren't we?

00:10:20.820 That's the problem.

00:10:22.540 You just never know, right?

00:10:23.700 You never know.

00:10:24.420 I mean, one of my, you know, there was one case a few months ago

00:10:27.440 where somebody, I think it was about their 303rd theft offence

00:10:31.740 of some kind.

00:10:32.280 And the judge said, I'm going to give you a suspended sentence

00:10:36.060 because in the intervening period since your trial,

00:10:39.500 and now you haven't actually done anything bad,

00:10:41.360 and I think that's showing that you're breaking the pattern.

00:10:43.900 The judge wasn't aware because no one had informed them

00:10:47.080 that actually during the intervening period

00:10:48.400 they'd been arrested for another theft offence,

00:10:50.600 and we're going on trial again for that.

00:10:52.660 You know, we're doing over 300 offences.

00:10:54.800 Several of these people are still getting suspended sentences.

00:10:57.100 Some are getting two, three, four months, five months.

00:10:59.460 And, of course, with time off, they're out within a matter of weeks.

00:11:04.520 So there was even actually a really good symbol of this

00:11:07.380 was the recent operation on Westminster Bridge.

00:11:09.860 Did you see this where they dress up as Batman and Robin?

00:11:12.040 No, I haven't seen it.

00:11:12.940 So there were scams, of course, all across Westminster Bridge,

00:11:17.240 which is also right in the view of the Met.

00:11:19.660 They are scamming people all the time, scamming tourists all the time,

00:11:22.740 you know, with those rigged games, ball-in-the-cup stuff,

00:11:25.120 all this kind of thing.

00:11:25.640 Officers are so well-known to these individuals

00:11:29.920 because they've been arrested so many times

00:11:31.440 that even if they're in plain clothes,

00:11:33.500 they know when to pack up and go

00:11:34.860 because they have someone on the lookout

00:11:35.960 for the officers they recognise.

00:11:38.780 So given these career criminals know who you are,

00:11:41.620 they decided it would be good to dress up,

00:11:43.500 which is quite funny.

00:11:44.340 They dress up as Batman and Robin,

00:11:46.100 and a smart-thinking officer had some nice social media footage

00:11:49.580 taken of Batman and Robin arresting them

00:11:51.200 on the Westminster Bridge.

00:11:52.580 All this effort, and one of the offenders

00:11:57.140 didn't actually turn up to a court date.

00:11:59.380 We don't know where they are.

00:12:00.540 And the other offender got about a £900 fine,

00:12:03.920 let back straight out.

00:12:04.820 So, like, a day is keeping.

00:12:06.580 This is obviously completely and utterly broken.

00:12:10.460 If you're a police officer involved in this,

00:12:12.040 it's completely and utterly demoralising.

00:12:13.740 And if you're a criminal in this,

00:12:15.700 the most you're looking at is a few months away.

00:12:17.880 And all of us have had to do work

00:12:19.160 we haven't enjoyed for a few months.

00:12:20.480 For them, it's just, like, part of the price of doing business.

00:12:23.660 And you're back out again, doing it again,

00:12:25.920 as you were before,

00:12:27.060 knowing that they've got less than 1% chance

00:12:29.480 of finding you next time.

00:12:30.720 And, Lawrence, how much of this is to do with the fact

00:12:33.220 that the court system is full to the brim?

00:12:36.680 There's a backlog still after COVID.

00:12:39.500 Still a massive thing.

00:12:41.280 We simply don't have space in prisons.

00:12:43.440 We need to build more prisons.

00:12:46.040 The system simply can't cope.

00:12:47.880 Like, how much, what's going on here?

00:12:50.640 Yeah, I mean, basically,

00:12:51.640 every part of our system is completely and utterly broken.

00:12:54.160 Like, this is the worst part of looking at any aspect here.

00:12:57.180 You've got a problem, as you were just highlighting as well,

00:12:59.520 investigations.

00:13:00.600 That's not being followed up.

00:13:01.960 Then even if you get through that tiny point of investigations,

00:13:05.100 you get to, you know,

00:13:06.160 you're less than 1% of the suspect identified.

00:13:08.000 You actually get them not only identified,

00:13:09.360 but taken to court, actually tried, actually convicted.

00:13:11.820 There's a good chance they're back out again.

00:13:13.180 But it can take years to get through any of these hurdles.

00:13:17.660 And as you're just saying,

00:13:19.320 there's like 74,000 cases in a backlog just in the Crown courts.

00:13:23.980 In our magistrates' courts,

00:13:25.260 there's several hundred thousands of cases waiting trial.

00:13:28.980 And it's actually started before COVID even as well.

00:13:31.220 This has been like really long-term failure.

00:13:34.280 It is in part as well, obviously,

00:13:36.300 because we've got a prisons crisis.

00:13:37.420 I mean, the Conservatives with 14 years in government built net 500 prison places

00:13:43.980 whilst increasing the population by several million.

00:13:46.960 I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's beyond unbelievable.

00:13:50.820 It's just like a complete failure of government,

00:13:53.080 like a basic failure of government.

00:13:55.600 We're now at like, it's like 99.9% prison capacity.

00:13:59.560 Now the problem is Labour are going to build more prisons,

00:14:02.640 14,000 more places by 2031.

00:14:05.220 But on current projections, and because we're so far behind,

00:14:08.480 even if they hit this target,

00:14:11.400 we'll be in the same position we're in now

00:14:12.980 because of population growth and so on.

00:14:15.240 So it's not fixing the problem.

00:14:17.440 It's just keeping it where it is.

00:14:19.420 And what do we know about these repeat criminals?

00:14:21.720 Are they come from a certain demographic?

00:14:23.360 Are we talking drug addicts?

00:14:25.220 Are these career criminals?

00:14:26.760 I mean, what type of people are these?

00:14:28.860 Yeah, there's, there's some interesting studies on,

00:14:31.440 so some of it's by addiction,

00:14:33.340 which of course is another reason why actually you do want to imprison these people for longer.

00:14:38.020 We know from Netherlands,

00:14:40.480 there's studies that when you put people away for longer periods

00:14:43.680 and actually rehabilitate them behind closed doors,

00:14:45.920 behind prison doors, rather,

00:14:47.360 they're actually able to be off drugs for longer periods.

00:14:50.120 You can actually break a cycle,

00:14:51.140 which of course, if you're in for two months,

00:14:52.820 or in suspended sentences,

00:14:53.760 it's not doing anything for you.

00:14:55.040 It's actually helping at all.

00:14:56.220 It's not protecting the public.

00:14:57.400 It is also the case that these are legitimately now routes,

00:15:04.140 or rather actually routes for people to earn a lot of money.

00:15:07.360 Like they are earning quite a bit of cash.

00:15:09.680 Can I just pause you there?

00:15:10.940 What do you mean by quite a bit of money?

00:15:12.320 Let's talk Turkey, as they say.

00:15:13.900 Yeah, so if you're selling 100 phones in a morning,

00:15:17.660 and you're selling these off for a few hundred pounds a pop,

00:15:20.000 that's not bad.

00:15:21.060 That is not a bad income.

00:15:22.820 Tax-free, it is not a bad income.

00:15:25.900 It's also the case that there's very clearly established pipelines.

00:15:29.400 So only a few weeks after I started Crush Crime,

00:15:31.960 my sister-in-law was on Westminster Bridge,

00:15:34.700 and her toddler,

00:15:36.080 she had her toddler with her and her baby.

00:15:38.700 Her baby starts crying.

00:15:40.140 She takes her toddler around to look after them both

00:15:42.460 while she's just looking after the baby.

00:15:44.160 And as she turns her back to the street,

00:15:45.480 someone grabs her phone out of her pocket

00:15:47.640 and runs off with it.

00:15:49.300 Within a matter of hours,

00:15:50.560 it's in a shop somewhere in Kingston area.

00:15:54.040 And then within a few hours after that,

00:15:55.460 it's in an address in Haringey.

00:15:57.240 And within two, three days, it's in China.

00:15:59.400 That's an incredibly fast supply chain, basically,

00:16:03.480 where it's obviously then stripped down for parts.

00:16:05.400 Signal disappears.

00:16:06.280 So you're talking here like something

00:16:08.760 which is now so sophisticated

00:16:10.780 that there is an entire supply chain,

00:16:14.040 entire organised crime networks on this.

00:16:16.940 It's good, easy income,

00:16:19.000 in the sense of good for being easy,

00:16:20.920 easy to access,

00:16:22.460 that police have, as you say,

00:16:24.940 basically turned a blind eye to.

00:16:26.780 Because what you're really talking about here

00:16:28.880 is organised crime.

00:16:30.180 Yes.

00:16:30.440 Let's call it what it is,

00:16:31.400 because you've got this image of it's a few kids,

00:16:33.760 but no, this is an entire crime network.

00:16:35.860 Yeah, massively.

00:16:36.520 And the police are simply refusing to do anything about it.

00:16:39.640 So they're just letting criminal gangs

00:16:41.960 operate freely on our streets.

00:16:43.940 Yeah.

00:16:44.220 And if they do do something about it,

00:16:46.180 the results they see are these people

00:16:47.800 getting no prison time

00:16:48.860 and are back out doing it again.

00:16:50.640 I actually asked some officers,

00:16:51.860 how do you keep going about what you're doing,

00:16:54.300 seeing this?

00:16:54.920 And they said,

00:16:55.460 you just can't think about it.

00:16:57.480 Because if you think about it,

00:16:58.280 you wouldn't go to work every day.

00:16:59.760 That is not a sustainable system.

00:17:02.340 And what we're seeing is

00:17:03.340 many good officers leaving the force.

00:17:05.260 There is now a problem with recruiting officers

00:17:06.900 and keeping officers.

00:17:08.040 Because if you're good

00:17:08.840 and you care about this thing,

00:17:10.140 it beats you down enough,

00:17:11.200 you eventually leave.

00:17:12.620 And so we're now in another cycle.

00:17:15.480 It's not just the courts.

00:17:16.340 It's not just the prisons.

00:17:17.160 It's also now the police as well,

00:17:19.420 which is seeing their talent leave in swathes.

00:17:26.300 And why is this happening?

00:17:27.520 You mentioned the Tories.

00:17:30.220 Is it because they didn't put enough money

00:17:32.820 into the criminal justice system

00:17:34.780 to be able to process the cases?

00:17:36.440 And now, because there's a backlog

00:17:38.060 and because there's a lack of prison places,

00:17:40.900 we simply don't have the resources

00:17:43.460 to actually do this.

00:17:44.420 And therefore,

00:17:44.760 the only thing they can do

00:17:45.860 is to turn a blind eye.

00:17:47.520 I think it's actually a mixture

00:17:48.400 of multiple things,

00:17:50.040 as these things often are,

00:17:51.200 because it's like a whole systemic failure.

00:17:53.360 But really over the last 20 years,

00:17:55.320 there's been underfunding.

00:17:56.760 There's also been underappreciation

00:17:58.420 for actually having people

00:18:00.060 whose job it is to make this good

00:18:01.760 and to fire them

00:18:02.720 when they're not able to.

00:18:03.940 When I bring up problems

00:18:05.260 on phone theft,

00:18:06.420 the Met points to,

00:18:07.440 well, it's not our fault.

00:18:08.180 It's actually the mayor

00:18:08.980 who's not funding us properly,

00:18:10.360 not giving us direction properly,

00:18:11.580 whatever it might be.

00:18:12.580 The mayor says,

00:18:13.000 well, it's not my fault.

00:18:13.940 I'm actually giving them more money

00:18:14.800 than I did last year

00:18:15.660 and they're still not doing it.

00:18:16.920 And actually,

00:18:17.700 I'm being constrained

00:18:18.580 by central government.

00:18:19.500 Central government says,

00:18:20.280 it's not our fault.

00:18:20.880 It's the mayor and the Met.

00:18:22.100 Everyone's passing on blame.

00:18:23.700 We see this with multiple quangos.

00:18:26.000 It's actually very difficult

00:18:26.900 to look at one individual

00:18:28.700 and say,

00:18:29.180 you're at fault.

00:18:30.600 Your head should roll

00:18:31.420 or you should be praised

00:18:32.480 if it goes well.

00:18:33.500 Very, very, very difficult.

00:18:35.080 And as a result,

00:18:35.960 it means that everyone

00:18:36.880 can farm off responsibility,

00:18:39.000 farm it off to other people,

00:18:40.140 say it's somebody else's fault.

00:18:42.760 That is obviously not a way

00:18:44.060 that any functioning company

00:18:45.460 would actually survive.

00:18:47.540 And as a result,

00:18:49.080 we see what we would see

00:18:50.200 in any company

00:18:50.720 where that's the case,

00:18:51.980 just diffuse

00:18:53.120 uncertain responsibilities

00:18:55.180 and people wanting

00:18:56.660 to shove issues

00:18:58.200 under the rug.

00:18:59.000 That is like by far

00:19:01.340 one of the major problems

00:19:02.340 and has been for the last

00:19:03.220 like 20 or more years.

00:19:04.940 It is also the case

00:19:06.120 that there hasn't been

00:19:07.220 clear direction.

00:19:08.400 You see it right now.

00:19:10.240 They're releasing

00:19:10.960 this sentencing review.

00:19:12.900 The government has just

00:19:13.440 undertaken a sentencing review.

00:19:15.000 What are they trying to do?

00:19:16.020 They'll find any way they can

00:19:17.240 to just not send people

00:19:17.960 to prison

00:19:18.420 and are trying to come up

00:19:19.480 with ideological ways

00:19:20.580 to justify it

00:19:21.620 when partly it's ideological

00:19:22.900 for some of the people involved.

00:19:24.480 Partly it's just

00:19:25.020 they do not know

00:19:28.040 how to build prison spaces quickly.

00:19:30.640 They don't want to,

00:19:31.700 for instance,

00:19:32.500 amend the Prisons Act

00:19:33.820 and designate emergency prisons,

00:19:36.560 which they could do otherwise.

00:19:37.880 We have actually done it

00:19:38.440 in the past,

00:19:38.900 a few decades ago.

00:19:40.080 It is possible to do that,

00:19:41.200 but they just don't want

00:19:41.840 to take those actions.

00:19:43.320 So instead, again,

00:19:44.820 it is the public

00:19:46.220 that has to take on the risk.

00:19:48.200 It is a series of failures

00:19:50.200 like this

00:19:50.760 that have led to now,

00:19:53.340 as I say,

00:19:53.720 a kind of death spiral

00:19:55.020 in our police

00:19:55.580 and a death spiral

00:19:56.220 in our courts,

00:19:57.060 which it will take

00:19:57.820 very significant action

00:19:58.920 from government to change,

00:20:00.020 and they need to do it quickly,

00:20:00.940 or we are just all

00:20:02.540 going to keep suffering

00:20:03.160 under this.

00:20:04.580 If you're someone

00:20:05.360 who values free inquiry

00:20:06.760 and independent thinking,

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00:21:16.240 And now, back to the show.

00:21:17.960 One of the things I remember,

00:21:20.380 I think it was,

00:21:21.060 the internet will correct me

00:21:22.720 if I'm wrong,

00:21:23.120 but I think it was

00:21:23.840 Sola Braverman

00:21:24.540 when we had her on the show

00:21:25.640 who said that the decision

00:21:27.200 was made at some point

00:21:28.340 to prioritize certain types

00:21:30.200 of crime over others.

00:21:31.280 And I think you do talk

00:21:32.380 about the fact that the police

00:21:33.520 are pretty good

00:21:34.360 at investigating murders.

00:21:36.020 Yeah.

00:21:36.200 They are pretty good

00:21:36.900 at investigating assaults

00:21:38.220 and things like that.

00:21:39.540 So is this simply,

00:21:41.520 you know,

00:21:42.080 limited resources,

00:21:43.100 big challenges,

00:21:44.520 we'll focus on this stuff

00:21:45.640 because that, you know,

00:21:46.520 that really matters.

00:21:47.520 These are low-impact crimes.

00:21:49.340 You know,

00:21:50.160 people are going to buy

00:21:50.860 a new phone.

00:21:52.020 You know.

00:21:52.340 I think partly

00:21:53.160 it's a question of focus,

00:21:55.320 but it's also a question of,

00:21:58.000 it's kind of a false economy

00:21:59.260 because when you don't focus

00:22:00.920 on these things,

00:22:01.520 they grow.

00:22:02.480 And now, for instance,

00:22:03.460 last year,

00:22:04.200 it saw the highest

00:22:05.120 shoplifting on record.

00:22:06.260 It then increased by 20%

00:22:07.980 to be the highest on record again.

00:22:10.360 Now, for the person,

00:22:11.560 the highest on record,

00:22:13.560 we're talking over

00:22:14.340 115,000 phones

00:22:16.060 were stolen in London

00:22:17.780 in last year alone.

00:22:19.980 It's just phones.

00:22:21.260 Like, that's an incredible number.

00:22:22.900 Other cities are not seeing

00:22:24.080 this level.

00:22:25.020 I was just recently

00:22:25.620 in Amsterdam

00:22:26.480 and I was talking to people there

00:22:29.620 and they said,

00:22:30.020 I don't know anyone

00:22:30.680 who's had their phones stolen.

00:22:33.120 It's very, very normal

00:22:34.040 in London to know people

00:22:35.120 who've had their phones stolen.

00:22:35.920 We all know somebody.

00:22:37.100 It hasn't happened

00:22:37.640 to us directly.

00:22:38.320 It is a false economy

00:22:41.320 because what you end up with

00:22:42.560 is organized crime networks,

00:22:44.400 as you were saying earlier,

00:22:45.580 embed themselves.

00:22:46.780 The supply networks

00:22:47.460 become even more important.

00:22:49.060 They become even more valuable.

00:22:51.600 These organizations,

00:22:52.280 they defend them even more.

00:22:53.680 And eventually,

00:22:54.700 you know,

00:22:55.780 every day,

00:22:56.700 what people see

00:22:57.840 and interact with

00:22:58.760 every day

00:22:59.420 is shops

00:23:00.360 and their phones

00:23:01.540 and their bikes

00:23:02.260 and otherwise.

00:23:03.100 And that's what they see

00:23:04.080 as evidence of decay

00:23:06.060 around them.

00:23:06.620 And now all of us

00:23:08.040 have to be more careful

00:23:09.400 of our phones,

00:23:10.020 to be more careful

00:23:10.520 of our bikes.

00:23:11.640 A lot of people

00:23:13.120 are just simply not buying

00:23:14.140 expensive bicycles

00:23:15.000 because what's the point?

00:23:16.420 And I mean,

00:23:17.940 if you're going to any shop

00:23:18.760 in London now,

00:23:19.800 pretty much nearly anywhere now,

00:23:21.280 it's items are in

00:23:22.540 plastic containers

00:23:23.560 and they're behind glass

00:23:25.080 and they're locked away.

00:23:26.120 And this is,

00:23:27.220 it wasn't this case

00:23:28.020 like three years ago.

00:23:29.180 And so we all suffer

00:23:30.440 a worse quality of life

00:23:31.600 as a result of this.

00:23:32.760 And yet,

00:23:34.420 after we campaigned

00:23:35.460 for a while on this,

00:23:36.440 the Met suddenly

00:23:37.160 undertook

00:23:38.900 a specific action

00:23:40.840 for a week

00:23:41.420 in which they arrested

00:23:42.180 200 phone thieves

00:23:43.540 in one week.

00:23:45.140 So it turns out

00:23:45.920 it's actually possible.

00:23:47.100 They could do it.

00:23:48.340 It just requires

00:23:49.220 leadership

00:23:49.880 and actually dedication

00:23:50.720 to getting it done.

00:23:51.960 And I think it's a very

00:23:52.740 profound point

00:23:53.760 you highlighted there,

00:23:55.980 which is

00:23:56.440 the demoralising effect

00:23:58.500 that it has on society.

00:24:00.180 As somebody who's a Londoner

00:24:01.480 has pretty much lived

00:24:02.340 all my life in London,

00:24:04.760 I really,

00:24:05.840 I find it deeply unsettling.

00:24:08.540 I find it deeply upsetting

00:24:10.360 when I walk around my city

00:24:12.680 and I see criminals

00:24:14.680 acting with impunity

00:24:15.960 because they know

00:24:17.240 nobody's going to step in.

00:24:19.220 Look, you go into the tube

00:24:20.300 and now, actually,

00:24:21.180 let's just be honest about this,

00:24:22.600 whether you pay

00:24:23.340 for the tube or not,

00:24:24.800 it's just a question

00:24:25.720 of morality.

00:24:26.600 You don't have to.

00:24:27.640 I was in Fensbury Park

00:24:28.660 tube station the other day,

00:24:29.700 they just opened the barriers.

00:24:31.480 So people could just

00:24:32.040 walk in and out

00:24:32.720 as they chose.

00:24:33.840 And you just think to yourself,

00:24:35.020 ordinary people

00:24:37.040 are being punished

00:24:37.780 for following the rules

00:24:38.880 and criminals

00:24:39.900 are being

00:24:40.780 allowed to get away with it

00:24:43.080 and actually

00:24:44.540 they've been given

00:24:45.380 the better end of the deal.

00:24:46.940 Yeah, I mean,

00:24:47.620 there's been like

00:24:48.740 no focus on this,

00:24:49.920 no attention on this.

00:24:51.840 And because the police

00:24:53.740 have done well elsewhere

00:24:54.940 and because our system

00:24:57.620 is so utterly broken,

00:24:58.960 there hasn't been

00:24:59.980 any actual focus

00:25:00.860 on the stuff

00:25:01.340 that we interact

00:25:02.140 with every single day

00:25:03.040 that is actually

00:25:04.060 making our lives

00:25:04.720 materially worse.

00:25:06.240 It's obviously worse

00:25:07.240 to raise children

00:25:07.960 in a world

00:25:08.460 where everything

00:25:09.660 has to be locked away

00:25:10.760 behind plastic containers

00:25:12.000 and you have to explain

00:25:12.880 to them,

00:25:13.220 oh, that's because

00:25:13.520 people might steal it.

00:25:14.880 Like, they learn

00:25:15.540 the world around them

00:25:16.420 is unsafe,

00:25:18.100 untrustworthy,

00:25:19.020 and nasty.

00:25:19.900 Well, at least they're

00:25:20.360 prepared for the modern world,

00:25:21.380 mate,

00:25:21.800 the way it is now.

00:25:23.540 But I'm joking,

00:25:24.300 of course,

00:25:24.700 but I think Francis

00:25:25.460 makes a very important point

00:25:27.120 because we saw Robert Jenner,

00:25:30.040 the Conservative MP,

00:25:31.160 he did a video

00:25:31.940 from the Tube

00:25:32.640 where he effectively,

00:25:34.040 he confronted a few people

00:25:35.300 who were not paying.

00:25:36.620 And I did a tweet

00:25:38.080 about it last year

00:25:38.840 because I don't live in London,

00:25:40.560 I tend to spend much time,

00:25:42.960 and I went on the Tube

00:25:44.240 for like the first time

00:25:45.740 in like a year,

00:25:46.740 let's say,

00:25:47.140 or half a year,

00:25:47.800 how long it was.

00:25:48.760 And I was shocked,

00:25:50.400 genuinely,

00:25:51.040 because there were,

00:25:53.700 first of all,

00:25:54.180 I don't think in my life

00:25:56.040 I ever remember people

00:25:57.040 jumping over barriers

00:25:58.220 in front of staff.

00:25:59.660 Yeah.

00:26:00.100 And then I saw

00:26:01.180 these same kids

00:26:02.000 that had done that,

00:26:03.160 like smashing the stop button

00:26:04.460 on escalators,

00:26:05.280 inconvenience,

00:26:06.000 and everybody else,

00:26:06.880 pushing each other

00:26:07.900 into other passengers

00:26:08.900 on the thing.

00:26:09.880 Like, that is not a London

00:26:11.620 that I ever remember.

00:26:14.040 Yeah.

00:26:14.120 So it's changed

00:26:14.920 very, very quickly.

00:26:16.360 Yeah.

00:26:16.820 And I think,

00:26:17.600 part of the worry is,

00:26:19.800 is that this general vibe

00:26:22.280 of impunity

00:26:23.820 can't help, I think,

00:26:26.420 but not inspire more people

00:26:28.120 to break the rules.

00:26:29.680 Because, like,

00:26:30.560 even when you watch

00:26:31.540 that Robert Jenneric video,

00:26:33.880 the people that are not paying

00:26:35.380 are not just,

00:26:37.140 this might be my prejudicial

00:26:38.560 way of thinking,

00:26:39.220 but they're not stereotypically

00:26:40.760 who you might think

00:26:41.740 is not paying for the Tube.

00:26:42.840 Like, I think it's probably

00:26:44.080 kids messing about,

00:26:45.200 people who really are,

00:26:46.120 like, really poor

00:26:47.040 and they have to somehow

00:26:47.960 get in the Tube

00:26:48.760 and they can't afford it,

00:26:50.260 or some, like,

00:26:51.320 hardcore criminals.

00:26:52.540 But it was just, like,

00:26:53.160 people going to work.

00:26:54.500 Yeah.

00:26:54.800 Just people on their way

00:26:55.600 to work,

00:26:55.920 you know what,

00:26:56.300 I'm not paying.

00:26:57.260 Yeah.

00:26:57.440 And I think the worry

00:26:59.260 is not only that

00:27:00.380 there is a general sense

00:27:02.260 of more people

00:27:03.520 are committing more crime,

00:27:04.580 more people are being

00:27:05.160 the victims of crime,

00:27:06.280 but there's a sense of

00:27:07.300 an overall,

00:27:08.320 the word you used is decay,

00:27:09.780 and I think

00:27:10.280 that's absolutely right.

00:27:12.020 Yeah,

00:27:12.280 and it feels like it

00:27:13.660 every day.

00:27:14.860 I really struggle

00:27:16.760 with the fact that,

00:27:18.220 exactly as you say,

00:27:19.400 like, over the last,

00:27:20.500 I've been in London

00:27:21.000 like 10 years,

00:27:22.060 I was born

00:27:25.200 on the South Coast

00:27:25.880 and coming to London

00:27:28.000 10 years ago,

00:27:28.740 it was very,

00:27:30.160 very different

00:27:30.720 to how it is now.

00:27:32.240 And the ways it's different

00:27:34.180 is a general feeling

00:27:35.760 of lawlessness.

00:27:36.800 Like,

00:27:37.020 there is a feeling

00:27:37.900 that I'm an idiot

00:27:39.640 if I get my phone out

00:27:40.960 on the wrong street

00:27:42.440 and if it's stolen,

00:27:43.980 it's almost like

00:27:44.540 it's my fault

00:27:45.280 because, oh,

00:27:46.220 I should have known

00:27:46.880 that, you know,

00:27:47.480 nothing here is safe.

00:27:49.520 That's,

00:27:49.940 I mean,

00:27:50.220 I actually did a tweet

00:27:51.440 the other week

00:27:52.460 on shoplifting

00:27:53.440 on some of the new figures.

00:27:54.820 I turned into my local shop

00:27:55.980 and, you know,

00:27:57.120 it's a nice area.

00:27:59.340 Someone runs out

00:28:00.540 of the Tesco

00:28:01.360 with their arms

00:28:02.480 filled with items

00:28:03.620 and the staff

00:28:04.560 just going,

00:28:05.160 oh,

00:28:05.660 what can you do?

00:28:06.440 They literally just shoplifted

00:28:07.260 right now

00:28:07.700 and I thought,

00:28:08.080 well,

00:28:08.160 I could tweet about it

00:28:09.040 but I thought no one

00:28:09.500 would believe me.

00:28:10.300 Like,

00:28:10.480 I literally just sent out

00:28:11.200 another tweet

00:28:11.700 on shoplifting

00:28:12.660 and it's happening

00:28:13.140 again right in front of me.

00:28:15.280 It is obviously

00:28:16.620 completely unsustainable

00:28:17.800 and it's obviously

00:28:18.700 something which,

00:28:19.380 with some targeted policing

00:28:22.000 on a very small number

00:28:23.180 of criminals,

00:28:23.660 this is why,

00:28:24.480 even though there's not

00:28:25.000 much prison space,

00:28:26.220 if you target

00:28:26.820 the right people,

00:28:28.140 you can actually

00:28:28.560 dramatically reduce rates.

00:28:30.400 So in the city of London

00:28:31.200 where they focused

00:28:33.540 on a single

00:28:34.180 bike theft gang

00:28:35.220 it was around

00:28:36.280 seven people

00:28:37.180 arrested,

00:28:38.120 imprisoned them,

00:28:39.520 bike thefts

00:28:40.460 dropped in the area

00:28:41.160 by 90%.

00:28:42.300 It's actually possible

00:28:43.740 to make huge,

00:28:44.540 huge,

00:28:44.800 huge differences

00:28:45.440 if you put away

00:28:46.580 for some time

00:28:47.560 the small number

00:28:48.560 of people

00:28:48.860 who are disproportionately

00:28:49.740 responsible for the

00:28:50.740 majority of crime

00:28:51.420 in this country.

00:28:52.340 And it's also

00:28:53.020 a story,

00:28:55.120 it's horrifying to me

00:28:56.320 and it's a true story

00:28:57.320 that happened to my parents.

00:28:58.120 My parents are old,

00:28:59.240 my mother is disabled,

00:29:00.280 my dad is a full-time carer,

00:29:01.980 he is also old

00:29:02.980 and vulnerable.

00:29:04.460 They went shopping,

00:29:05.880 they came back,

00:29:06.860 there was a gang

00:29:07.460 in the house

00:29:08.080 robbing,

00:29:09.360 robbing the place.

00:29:11.420 And my dad didn't know,

00:29:12.280 he walked in

00:29:12.900 and he disturbed them

00:29:13.860 and they took

00:29:15.340 my grandmother's

00:29:17.060 jewellery,

00:29:17.800 which is the only

00:29:18.440 inclination my mother

00:29:19.100 had with her mum

00:29:20.940 who's since passed away

00:29:21.940 and ran away.

00:29:24.660 And you think

00:29:25.160 on the one hand

00:29:25.880 of course this is awful,

00:29:27.040 this is distressing,

00:29:28.400 but on the other hand

00:29:29.240 I said this to my dad,

00:29:30.120 I said you're really lucky

00:29:31.260 because imagine

00:29:32.540 if they had got violent

00:29:33.680 and this is a man

00:29:35.320 in his late 70s,

00:29:36.440 that could have easily

00:29:37.200 turned from a burglary

00:29:38.380 to a murder.

00:29:39.340 And when we don't deal

00:29:43.120 with these types of crimes,

00:29:44.360 they can escalate.

00:29:45.380 If you just allow

00:29:46.320 bike robberies

00:29:47.880 just to happen

00:29:48.500 all day,

00:29:49.040 every day,

00:29:50.000 some people are going

00:29:50.660 to fight back

00:29:51.220 when they see

00:29:53.100 their bike being stolen

00:29:53.980 or their phone being stolen

00:29:55.060 because people react

00:29:55.860 to different ways

00:29:56.520 when they're under pressure.

00:29:57.940 That's the moment

00:29:58.600 a knife gets drawn

00:29:59.600 because we're not

00:30:00.140 tackling knife crime

00:30:00.980 the way we're meant

00:30:02.000 to be doing.

00:30:02.480 We're not doing

00:30:03.060 stop and search

00:30:03.760 and all of a sudden

00:30:04.360 the kid gets stabbed,

00:30:05.360 the kid loses their life

00:30:06.380 or a person,

00:30:07.340 whoever it may be.

00:30:08.180 It just seems

00:30:09.720 that what we're doing

00:30:11.180 is we're allowing

00:30:12.020 a cancer to grow

00:30:13.860 and then flourish.

00:30:15.920 Yeah, I mean,

00:30:16.320 we can see it in knife crime

00:30:17.240 because actually knife crime

00:30:18.020 is also on the rise as well.

00:30:20.800 Like, there is going to be

00:30:22.720 a build-up of this

00:30:23.680 because there is more

00:30:24.540 and more organised crime,

00:30:25.900 there is more and more

00:30:26.440 money in this,

00:30:27.320 there is more and more

00:30:28.060 just general decay,

00:30:29.780 general distrust.

00:30:30.980 I mean, we even see it

00:30:32.200 in the case of police

00:30:32.900 not investigating things,

00:30:33.680 we see it in burglaries.

00:30:34.980 Burglaries are getting

00:30:35.640 so serious

00:30:36.640 because they can

00:30:37.580 for exactly what it is.

00:30:38.680 I mean, it's both like

00:30:39.340 horrific just to be,

00:30:41.600 have stuff taken from you

00:30:42.460 but also someone

00:30:43.360 in your home

00:30:44.240 breaking in,

00:30:45.040 it's incredibly like

00:30:46.000 invasive

00:30:46.500 and very unsettling.

00:30:48.400 That's one area

00:30:48.920 you're meant to be

00:30:49.320 completely safe

00:30:50.140 and they can become violent

00:30:52.120 both because people

00:30:52.980 want to defend their property

00:30:53.920 totally reasonably

00:30:55.160 and because people

00:30:56.420 in those environments

00:30:57.120 realise I'm tracked

00:30:58.240 and want to fight back

00:30:59.440 and will do

00:31:00.020 many, many things

00:31:01.520 to get out of that situation

00:31:02.420 including up to killing people

00:31:03.500 which we obviously

00:31:03.980 have seen cases of that

00:31:04.960 but there was a case

00:31:06.240 just recently,

00:31:07.180 it was a barrister,

00:31:08.600 he had his house

00:31:09.380 broken into,

00:31:11.160 his home broken into

00:31:11.920 and the actual criminal

00:31:14.860 left behind a bail notice

00:31:16.180 with their name on it.

00:31:18.860 Did police investigate?

00:31:20.480 No.

00:31:21.440 It's like something

00:31:21.960 out of True Romance.

00:31:23.320 He leaves his driver's licence

00:31:25.020 in the dead guy's hand.

00:31:26.420 And they didn't do

00:31:26.820 anything about it.

00:31:27.500 Right.

00:31:28.160 It just left.

00:31:28.700 What are we going to do

00:31:36.100 about this?

00:31:37.180 So, I mean,

00:31:37.840 there's a variety of things

00:31:38.960 that can actually be done

00:31:40.160 at a very baseline level.

00:31:42.260 The first is that

00:31:43.220 rather than

00:31:44.800 the government's

00:31:45.560 current approach

00:31:46.340 which is actually

00:31:47.040 to let even more

00:31:49.020 career criminals

00:31:50.000 back out onto the streets,

00:31:51.800 they have to instead

00:31:53.140 designate emergency prisons.

00:31:55.420 That is possible.

00:31:56.240 I mean, so you commandeer

00:31:57.640 buildings that aren't

00:31:58.380 currently prisons,

00:31:59.120 you make them into

00:31:59.760 makeshift prisons

00:32:00.440 and you put prisons in there.

00:32:01.660 Yes, exactly.

00:32:02.840 They also need,

00:32:03.960 you know,

00:32:04.360 longer term to look

00:32:04.960 at the procurement rules

00:32:05.800 and otherwise on prisons

00:32:06.700 because the fact

00:32:07.500 that at the moment

00:32:08.520 it's estimated

00:32:09.160 that the new prison spaces,

00:32:11.780 if you look at the amount

00:32:12.860 they've put aside

00:32:13.520 and the number of spaces,

00:32:14.440 it's going to cost

00:32:14.920 about £335,000 a place

00:32:17.780 to build these.

00:32:19.420 It's completely,

00:32:20.140 that's mad.

00:32:20.780 It's more than like

00:32:21.360 the average house cost

00:32:22.280 in the UK.

00:32:22.700 Like, what is going on here?

00:32:24.600 What is actually happening?

00:32:26.040 But that's longer term.

00:32:27.200 For immediacy,

00:32:28.500 there's some designate

00:32:29.220 emergency prisons.

00:32:30.920 There's, of course,

00:32:31.320 we've got,

00:32:32.880 because of the backlog as well,

00:32:34.120 if we actually opened up

00:32:35.140 our courts for longer,

00:32:36.660 if we open them up

00:32:37.760 in the evenings,

00:32:38.560 at weekends,

00:32:39.620 which happens

00:32:40.200 in some American cities,

00:32:41.220 we don't do it here,

00:32:42.260 but most of the time

00:32:43.060 there's several courts

00:32:45.340 across the country

00:32:45.860 who just simply aren't opening.

00:32:47.860 Monday to Friday

00:32:48.620 they take a random day out

00:32:50.100 or so on.

00:32:51.420 Any given day

00:32:52.160 up to a third of our courts

00:32:53.080 might be shut

00:32:53.620 whilst there's

00:32:54.660 a massive backlog.

00:32:55.420 Given that,

00:32:57.580 if they actually open them

00:32:58.580 and we actually have people

00:32:59.720 and judges sitting

00:33:01.100 for longer,

00:33:02.380 we have a bunch of people

00:33:03.700 on remand

00:33:04.400 who are awaiting trial

00:33:05.500 in our prisons.

00:33:06.360 You can get through

00:33:07.980 thousands of people.

00:33:09.360 And of course,

00:33:09.700 you've then got

00:33:10.140 prisoners,

00:33:11.580 foreign national offenders

00:33:12.560 who are still

00:33:13.160 in our prisons

00:33:13.760 who obviously should be

00:33:14.960 deported.

00:33:15.700 There's one thing

00:33:16.220 the government does seem

00:33:17.080 to be looking at

00:33:17.660 actually doing now.

00:33:19.140 We're talking about

00:33:19.760 nearly 10,000 people,

00:33:20.880 which obviously

00:33:22.240 would make a lot of room

00:33:23.240 when you've got

00:33:23.820 about 80,000 prison spaces.

00:33:25.380 Do you know why

00:33:25.800 those people

00:33:26.180 haven't been deported?

00:33:27.920 There's,

00:33:28.420 I mean,

00:33:28.980 that system is also

00:33:29.600 completely broken.

00:33:32.200 Every aspect

00:33:32.880 of this thing is broken.

00:33:34.340 There's whole problems

00:33:35.140 there with

00:33:36.020 various interpretations

00:33:37.860 of parts of

00:33:39.640 British legislation

00:33:40.720 by judges

00:33:41.320 over the years

00:33:41.840 have become

00:33:42.140 more and more generous.

00:33:43.780 There's been wider

00:33:44.380 and wider readings

00:33:44.940 I think of the Human Rights Act

00:33:46.260 and otherwise

00:33:46.680 in ways that I don't think

00:33:47.420 actually the Human Rights Act

00:33:48.200 does actually support

00:33:48.880 some of these judgments

00:33:49.520 but it's been used

00:33:50.200 in that way.

00:33:51.180 It's not just that

00:33:51.800 but it's also just like

00:33:52.840 simple things like

00:33:54.720 not,

00:33:55.920 I know in some

00:33:56.580 immigration cases

00:33:57.420 for instance

00:33:57.660 just not sending,

00:33:59.020 home officials

00:33:59.420 not sending lawyers.

00:34:01.080 This was reported

00:34:01.780 a few years ago

00:34:02.300 by the Telegraph

00:34:02.900 and just not sending

00:34:03.700 lawyers to these cases

00:34:04.620 they're not defending them.

00:34:05.720 They're not,

00:34:06.340 basic failures.

00:34:07.960 There's basic failures

00:34:08.600 across the board

00:34:09.260 and so you have a complete,

00:34:11.300 again,

00:34:11.880 another area

00:34:12.420 which has completely

00:34:13.060 failed to operate

00:34:13.940 and as a result

00:34:14.940 we all now live

00:34:16.200 in a situation

00:34:17.140 where unlike

00:34:18.360 Nordic countries

00:34:19.440 for instance

00:34:19.780 that do deport

00:34:20.560 prisoners

00:34:21.320 incredibly quickly.

00:34:22.640 You've broken the rules

00:34:23.360 in the country,

00:34:24.480 you don't need to be here.

00:34:26.000 Thank you very much.

00:34:26.860 Someone else

00:34:27.380 or other people

00:34:28.620 who've actually moved here

00:34:30.180 follow the rules.

00:34:31.760 It's pretty basic

00:34:32.420 not to commit crime,

00:34:34.040 certainly not to commit crime

00:34:34.860 to the level

00:34:35.260 you get sent to prison

00:34:36.400 in Britain

00:34:36.780 which is quite hard to do.

00:34:37.880 if you're in that situation

00:34:40.500 we should be sending you home.

00:34:42.180 Yeah,

00:34:42.440 it's,

00:34:43.680 I mean,

00:34:44.100 when you look at

00:34:44.860 particularly the one

00:34:45.680 that is absolutely

00:34:46.860 horrifying to me

00:34:47.940 is when you see

00:34:48.860 sex offenders.

00:34:50.820 It's a very serious crime.

00:34:52.680 It destroys people's lives

00:34:54.260 and they're going to prison

00:34:56.200 sometimes for a matter

00:34:57.460 of months.

00:34:58.600 Yeah.

00:34:58.940 You actually wonder

00:34:59.840 what the hell

00:35:00.400 is going on here?

00:35:01.440 Yeah,

00:35:01.760 I mean,

00:35:02.260 we've got some awful cases.

00:35:04.420 There was someone who,

00:35:07.820 because it's not even just

00:35:08.840 sex offenders cases

00:35:09.620 which are also awful,

00:35:10.860 it's also just like

00:35:11.780 almost murders.

00:35:13.080 So there was one case

00:35:13.740 in which a guy

00:35:16.060 beats up his ex-girlfriend

00:35:17.660 so badly

00:35:18.300 that she writes his name

00:35:19.600 in her blood on the wall

00:35:20.820 because she thinks

00:35:21.240 she's going to die.

00:35:22.540 He had 20 previous offenses

00:35:24.620 and he was sentenced

00:35:25.820 to under three years.

00:35:27.820 Now,

00:35:28.040 what are we doing here?

00:35:29.840 Like,

00:35:30.220 he's quite clearly

00:35:31.300 showing the character he is.

00:35:33.060 This is a domestic violence case

00:35:34.580 which he almost kills a woman

00:35:35.760 and the result is

00:35:37.240 he gets under three years.

00:35:38.680 He'll be out in

00:35:39.260 probably just about two.

00:35:41.640 That's obviously

00:35:42.500 not acceptable.

00:35:43.660 No one looks at that

00:35:44.620 and thinks

00:35:45.260 that's what

00:35:45.760 a society demands.

00:35:47.900 Like,

00:35:48.300 these people

00:35:49.120 need to be

00:35:50.020 away from the public

00:35:51.500 and the public

00:35:51.960 should expect

00:35:52.460 much longer periods

00:35:53.500 where they're away

00:35:54.220 and they're not a threat.

00:35:56.780 It's mad

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00:37:14.220 Is this

00:37:15.060 primarily

00:37:16.960 a practical issue

00:37:18.360 based on the things

00:37:19.200 that you've talked about

00:37:20.140 or is there

00:37:21.160 an ideological dimension

00:37:22.360 to this as well

00:37:23.100 whereby

00:37:23.460 I'm just speculating.

00:37:25.940 I don't know.

00:37:26.440 You correct me,

00:37:27.060 please,

00:37:27.400 if I'm wrong.

00:37:28.300 But,

00:37:29.080 you know,

00:37:30.080 there is a

00:37:30.860 wave of thinking

00:37:32.180 that,

00:37:32.720 you know,

00:37:33.040 criminals are criminals

00:37:33.980 because of poverty

00:37:35.240 and because they've been

00:37:36.660 badly treated

00:37:37.320 and there's a lot of truth

00:37:38.900 to all these things,

00:37:39.580 by the way.

00:37:40.200 You know,

00:37:40.540 but essentially crime

00:37:41.600 is the product

00:37:42.660 of victimization

00:37:43.600 of the people

00:37:44.200 who then become criminals

00:37:45.240 and we've got to be

00:37:46.780 kind and nice

00:37:47.840 and,

00:37:48.340 you know,

00:37:49.320 whatever,

00:37:49.940 whatever.

00:37:50.360 Is there some of that

00:37:51.420 happening too?

00:37:51.960 Yeah,

00:37:52.240 definitely.

00:37:52.700 I mean,

00:37:52.880 there's like an ideological

00:37:53.900 trend to this

00:37:54.560 but it's also

00:37:55.220 like kind of

00:37:56.520 by the by

00:37:57.160 in the sense that

00:37:58.340 when you're dealing

00:38:00.380 with career criminals,

00:38:02.620 you know,

00:38:02.920 15 or more offenses

00:38:04.100 committing the majority

00:38:05.080 of crime in this country,

00:38:06.260 some of which

00:38:06.700 are extremely violent,

00:38:08.000 the first duty

00:38:08.720 is actually just

00:38:09.760 to protect the public.

00:38:11.000 Second duty

00:38:11.680 can be things like

00:38:12.700 how do you rehabilitate

00:38:13.820 them once they're

00:38:14.320 behind bars?

00:38:15.100 How do you deal

00:38:15.580 with them once they're

00:38:16.060 behind?

00:38:16.360 All these questions.

00:38:17.520 But the very first duty

00:38:18.500 of the state

00:38:19.360 should be

00:38:20.220 you are clearly

00:38:21.100 a danger to the public.

00:38:22.540 We should remove you

00:38:23.700 from the public sphere

00:38:24.540 and put you away somewhere

00:38:26.200 and then we can talk

00:38:27.400 about what we need

00:38:28.340 to do in terms

00:38:28.900 of rehabilitation

00:38:29.400 or otherwise,

00:38:30.340 like I was talking

00:38:30.820 earlier with drugs

00:38:31.640 and other,

00:38:32.320 like there are

00:38:33.160 social factors,

00:38:34.000 there are a huge

00:38:34.860 bunch of complexities

00:38:35.560 here,

00:38:36.360 but the baseline

00:38:37.140 has to be,

00:38:39.560 well,

00:38:39.900 if you don't do this,

00:38:40.680 in fact,

00:38:40.900 the baseline is that

00:38:41.720 all of us now

00:38:42.300 suffer a much worse

00:38:43.220 quality of life.

00:38:44.720 If you have people

00:38:45.840 with 300 offences

00:38:46.780 going straight out

00:38:47.640 again,

00:38:48.320 some of them,

00:38:48.800 for instance,

00:38:49.060 have been banned

00:38:49.560 from every shop

00:38:50.180 in their local area,

00:38:51.300 literally one of them,

00:38:52.800 she has over 400 offences,

00:38:54.420 is banned from every shop

00:38:55.340 in the northeast of England,

00:38:56.860 but is still back out

00:38:58.220 on the streets again

00:38:58.860 and shopkeepers

00:39:00.500 are continuously asking,

00:39:02.020 please put her away

00:39:02.900 for longer

00:39:03.380 because everybody

00:39:04.320 in the area

00:39:04.980 has to suffer now

00:39:05.920 whenever she's around.

00:39:07.180 This is completely

00:39:07.940 unsustainable

00:39:09.000 and again

00:39:10.340 as a result

00:39:10.960 of just like

00:39:11.800 not thinking

00:39:12.520 down the longer term

00:39:13.580 and not thinking

00:39:14.500 about what this means

00:39:15.400 compounded over time.

00:39:17.020 But it is an ideological

00:39:17.980 point as well.

00:39:19.680 I think this is what

00:39:20.280 happened

00:39:20.780 repeatedly

00:39:22.640 in both

00:39:23.680 judgments,

00:39:24.880 giving people

00:39:25.460 lax and laxer sentences

00:39:26.900 and in

00:39:29.240 the sentencing council

00:39:30.480 offering

00:39:31.460 laxer sentences,

00:39:33.220 encouraging laxer sentences

00:39:34.280 and

00:39:35.420 from legislators

00:39:37.280 who kind of

00:39:38.600 view prison

00:39:39.040 as a bit of

00:39:39.660 an awkward

00:39:40.760 Victorian institution

00:39:41.820 and don't look at it

00:39:43.020 as a necessity

00:39:43.580 to protect

00:39:44.060 the public.

00:39:45.780 And

00:39:45.800 how much

00:39:47.780 of this as well

00:39:48.500 is down to

00:39:49.280 the Conservatives

00:39:50.240 cost-cutting

00:39:52.280 with the police?

00:39:52.780 I think they took out

00:39:53.640 of action

00:39:54.200 20,000 police officers.

00:39:55.940 I speak to a lot

00:39:56.540 of coppers

00:39:57.040 who watch the show

00:39:57.900 and when it comes

00:40:00.020 to Theresa May

00:40:01.020 they go a particularly

00:40:02.900 vibrant shade

00:40:04.500 of fuchsia

00:40:05.160 and they put

00:40:06.500 a lot of the blame

00:40:07.360 at her door

00:40:07.960 particularly when she

00:40:08.800 was Home Secretary.

00:40:09.540 Yeah, I mean

00:40:10.940 I think

00:40:11.760 that's definitely

00:40:12.580 part of the story.

00:40:13.780 Of course the story

00:40:14.260 with that is also

00:40:14.920 that we've had

00:40:15.560 terrible economic

00:40:17.780 I was going to say

00:40:20.240 growth, we haven't

00:40:20.820 really had growth

00:40:21.340 but we've had

00:40:22.340 stagnation decline

00:40:24.300 for about 20 years

00:40:26.200 or more

00:40:26.620 in our economy

00:40:27.520 and as a result

00:40:28.580 pay is very bad

00:40:30.060 pay is bad

00:40:30.740 across both private

00:40:31.920 and public sectors.

00:40:34.400 Policing numbers

00:40:35.120 are now climbing

00:40:35.660 back up

00:40:36.060 they're nearly

00:40:36.400 to what they were

00:40:36.980 in 2010.

00:40:38.400 Of course per capita

00:40:39.360 it hasn't quite matched

00:40:40.660 because the population

00:40:41.380 has grown so much more

00:40:42.380 in that time period

00:40:42.980 as well

00:40:43.360 but there are

00:40:44.760 more officers

00:40:45.360 the problem is

00:40:46.220 they're not paid

00:40:47.320 very well

00:40:47.940 the job has gotten

00:40:48.940 worse over time

00:40:49.880 the systems have

00:40:50.840 gotten more and more

00:40:51.520 additive

00:40:51.900 and more and more

00:40:52.840 complex

00:40:53.260 because every single

00:40:54.700 marginal case

00:40:55.520 that causes a scandal

00:40:56.560 now has new

00:40:57.600 paperwork added

00:40:58.420 so where it used

00:40:59.380 to take 15 minutes

00:41:00.320 to book someone in

00:41:01.280 it now takes three

00:41:02.060 hours when you

00:41:02.540 arrest them

00:41:03.020 so all parts of the

00:41:04.480 system are trying

00:41:05.040 to beat you down

00:41:05.880 so many many

00:41:07.700 good officers leave

00:41:08.620 and right now

00:41:10.060 they're finding

00:41:10.320 a difference

00:41:10.560 to recruit

00:41:11.060 so they're opening

00:41:12.420 up these standards

00:41:14.840 or rather lowering

00:41:15.980 the standards

00:41:16.360 to get more people

00:41:17.040 in as officers

00:41:17.620 and then you end

00:41:18.540 up in this cycle

00:41:19.200 where your best

00:41:20.240 people leave

00:41:20.700 more and more

00:41:21.100 and more

00:41:21.400 and you have

00:41:22.060 to keep opening

00:41:23.040 up for weaker

00:41:25.400 and weaker candidates

00:41:26.100 and accepting them

00:41:26.760 in and then many

00:41:27.920 of them leave

00:41:28.420 so you end up

00:41:28.740 with a big churn

00:41:29.420 so I do think

00:41:30.460 it is in part

00:41:31.440 pay which is a

00:41:32.060 result of our

00:41:32.560 bad economy

00:41:33.140 and bad choices

00:41:34.720 in government

00:41:35.280 but it's also

00:41:36.780 now a situation

00:41:39.260 where the government

00:41:39.680 actually needs to do

00:41:40.320 like significant

00:41:41.020 investment

00:41:41.580 but also choosing

00:41:43.920 choosing actual

00:41:45.240 parts about what

00:41:46.020 do we focus

00:41:46.580 what is our actual

00:41:48.160 goal for policing

00:41:49.040 in this country

00:41:49.560 what is our actual

00:41:50.220 goal of the prisons

00:41:50.820 in this country

00:41:51.480 rather than at the

00:41:53.040 moment which has

00:41:53.540 been partly an

00:41:54.220 ideological and

00:41:55.000 partly just passivity

00:41:56.920 and inaction

00:41:57.520 leading to just

00:41:59.400 repeated class

00:42:00.220 across the board

00:42:00.980 they don't know

00:42:01.700 what they want

00:42:02.040 police to do

00:42:02.520 they don't really

00:42:02.920 know what they

00:42:03.320 want prison

00:42:04.100 they don't really

00:42:04.620 know why we

00:42:05.080 have prisons

00:42:05.580 right like they

00:42:06.600 have had a very

00:42:08.280 upfront discussion

00:42:09.080 about well

00:42:10.340 duty number one

00:42:11.360 of prisons is to

00:42:12.020 protect the public

00:42:12.620 that's why we have

00:42:13.600 them we should put

00:42:14.560 people in those

00:42:15.280 that are attention

00:42:15.980 to the public

00:42:16.500 that's a very

00:42:17.420 simple thing that

00:42:18.180 has not been

00:42:18.980 communicated politically

00:42:20.100 in so long

00:42:20.960 the conservatives

00:42:21.780 could get away

00:42:22.620 with building only

00:42:24.100 500 net prison

00:42:25.160 places

00:42:25.580 it's in 14 years

00:42:27.900 while increasing

00:42:28.460 the population

00:42:28.880 by several million

00:42:29.540 it's just complete

00:42:30.900 failure

00:42:31.280 complete failure

00:42:32.140 well I mean

00:42:33.260 one of the things

00:42:33.880 with that is I

00:42:34.440 think having

00:42:35.180 spoken to a lot

00:42:35.900 of people in

00:42:36.360 that sort of

00:42:36.800 mindset is

00:42:37.380 they think of

00:42:39.320 prison as

00:42:39.800 punishment

00:42:40.260 and they feel

00:42:41.520 guilty about

00:42:42.080 punishment

00:42:42.520 and you know

00:42:43.940 punishment is not

00:42:44.840 necessarily the

00:42:45.640 most effective

00:42:46.140 strategy

00:42:46.720 in whatever

00:42:49.100 context

00:42:49.700 so for them

00:42:51.640 it's like

00:42:52.460 well we're not

00:42:53.120 going to put

00:42:53.420 people in prison

00:42:54.400 because it

00:42:56.780 doesn't work

00:42:57.840 quote unquote

00:42:58.400 because the

00:42:58.900 objective they're

00:42:59.500 trying to get to

00:43:00.100 is rehabilitation

00:43:00.660 because they

00:43:01.320 live in this

00:43:01.700 kind of

00:43:01.940 utopian world

00:43:02.740 where someone

00:43:03.700 who steals

00:43:04.260 hundreds of

00:43:04.840 phones a day

00:43:05.500 you know

00:43:06.640 needs to be

00:43:07.260 miraculously turned

00:43:08.220 into a good

00:43:08.760 upstanding citizen

00:43:09.620 as a result of

00:43:10.460 prison which

00:43:10.860 can happen for

00:43:11.860 some people

00:43:12.340 but not for

00:43:12.860 everybody

00:43:13.200 so the protection

00:43:14.340 of the public

00:43:14.860 thing gets lost

00:43:15.940 by the wayside

00:43:16.660 I think

00:43:17.080 but the other

00:43:18.120 thing is I think

00:43:18.740 something that

00:43:19.180 bothers a lot of

00:43:19.820 people who watch

00:43:20.380 our show

00:43:20.780 and quite a lot

00:43:21.520 of people in

00:43:22.060 general in the

00:43:22.640 country at this

00:43:23.220 point is

00:43:23.720 you know in a

00:43:24.480 country in which

00:43:24.980 we have I think

00:43:25.640 in the last year

00:43:26.320 12,000 arrests

00:43:27.360 for people's

00:43:28.380 speech for

00:43:29.320 things they said

00:43:29.820 on social media

00:43:30.500 etc.

00:43:31.440 There is a reason

00:43:32.480 that two-tier

00:43:33.460 care thing is

00:43:34.300 sticking I think

00:43:35.680 do you have any

00:43:37.080 sense of that

00:43:38.080 aspect of it?

00:43:39.520 Yeah like I mean

00:43:40.300 I find it

00:43:41.120 particularly frustrating

00:43:41.980 when you see

00:43:43.340 you know lots of

00:43:45.380 talk about how

00:43:46.020 they cannot

00:43:46.420 prioritize actual

00:43:48.040 thefts I mean

00:43:49.080 even on my bike

00:43:49.660 video so many of

00:43:50.360 the quote tweets

00:43:51.020 from you know

00:43:52.300 officer accounts

00:43:53.180 many of them

00:43:53.740 were supportive

00:43:54.180 but there was a

00:43:55.620 significant number

00:43:56.260 that were also

00:43:56.760 not supportive

00:43:57.440 and it was

00:43:58.220 I'm doing too

00:43:59.220 many important

00:43:59.640 things to look

00:44:00.560 after to look

00:44:01.480 out for your

00:44:01.800 bike mate

00:44:02.280 was basically

00:44:02.880 the reaction

00:44:04.220 but well okay

00:44:05.040 but scale that

00:44:05.580 up and you've

00:44:06.180 got a huge

00:44:06.540 scandal I think

00:44:07.660 it's very very

00:44:08.120 difficult to take

00:44:08.840 that view and

00:44:09.400 say we are

00:44:09.720 doing much more

00:44:10.220 important things

00:44:10.900 when you're going

00:44:11.780 after you know

00:44:12.400 particularly you

00:44:13.020 know non-crime

00:44:14.180 hey incidents and

00:44:15.460 this this seems

00:44:16.220 completely bizarre

00:44:17.100 and what's

00:44:18.340 particularly bizarre

00:44:19.080 about this whole

00:44:19.540 thing is the

00:44:21.580 the disconnect

00:44:22.600 between the

00:44:23.720 sentencing we're

00:44:24.480 seeing in in

00:44:25.480 some of those

00:44:26.020 incidents like

00:44:27.460 Lucy Connelly's

00:44:28.780 tweet which is a

00:44:29.400 stupid tweet

00:44:30.400 I think she

00:44:31.200 deletes it after

00:44:32.200 some time

00:44:32.720 dumb thing to

00:44:33.620 say in the

00:44:34.940 middle of riots

00:44:35.920 heated atmosphere

00:44:37.240 in general

00:44:37.820 two and a half

00:44:39.720 years in prison

00:44:40.840 I mean I just

00:44:41.360 mentioned someone

00:44:41.820 earlier who

00:44:42.360 nearly beat his

00:44:42.980 girlfriend to

00:44:43.440 death who just

00:44:43.940 got only a few

00:44:44.540 months more than

00:44:45.020 that that's like

00:44:46.280 and we have some

00:44:47.020 people who actually

00:44:47.380 committed violence

00:44:48.000 in the rioters

00:44:48.560 themselves actually

00:44:49.320 committed violence

00:44:49.940 getting less

00:44:50.480 now that that's

00:44:51.880 that's obviously

00:44:52.580 completely out of

00:44:53.520 kilter the

00:44:53.980 sentencing makes

00:44:54.560 no real sense

00:44:55.460 also the police

00:44:56.320 time spent on

00:44:57.160 it the the

00:44:59.080 effort kind of

00:44:59.760 spent on it as

00:45:00.380 well and the

00:45:01.360 fact that we

00:45:02.260 end up with a

00:45:04.920 very bizarre set

00:45:06.700 of priorities for

00:45:07.500 policing again as

00:45:08.420 a result that what

00:45:10.000 is the purpose of

00:45:10.640 police is not

00:45:11.320 really a question

00:45:12.100 that the government

00:45:13.140 is seriously

00:45:13.580 looking at and

00:45:14.120 thinking well what

00:45:14.960 we actually want

00:45:15.360 police to do

00:45:15.940 protect the public

00:45:17.040 okay what does

00:45:17.940 that mean and

00:45:18.740 what does it mean

00:45:19.040 in practice and

00:45:19.660 what do we

00:45:19.880 actually have to

00:45:20.300 look out for

00:45:20.860 rather than kind

00:45:22.100 of this smorgasbord

00:45:23.240 of random things

00:45:24.220 that they are kind

00:45:25.000 of obsessed with

00:45:25.680 right now which

00:45:26.200 one of them is

00:45:26.660 regulating speech

00:45:28.520 I mean I will say

00:45:29.340 I have also had

00:45:30.360 like the other

00:45:30.800 side of this too

00:45:32.060 like during the

00:45:33.260 bully excel campaign

00:45:34.120 that I ran after

00:45:35.540 that I spent like

00:45:36.700 several months with

00:45:37.560 like large amounts

00:45:38.800 of death threats

00:45:39.380 and that I reported

00:45:41.120 to the police

00:45:41.600 and they were

00:45:41.820 the owners of

00:45:42.700 bully excel would

00:45:43.460 send you death

00:45:44.000 threats there's a

00:45:44.920 shocker

00:45:45.440 I imagine they're

00:45:48.140 such nice people

00:45:49.200 it was yeah

00:45:50.920 he's lovely

00:45:51.680 well now I'm a

00:45:53.040 fly mate

00:45:53.760 why is he just

00:45:56.940 ripped out of

00:45:57.560 child's throat

00:45:58.260 well it's not a

00:45:59.180 fly

00:45:59.480 sorry but

00:46:02.640 it was certainly

00:46:04.880 well weirdly

00:46:05.500 during the campaign

00:46:06.100 itself not very

00:46:07.040 much but the

00:46:07.540 moment the

00:46:07.840 government actually

00:46:08.440 did something

00:46:09.580 then suddenly it

00:46:10.140 was horrendous

00:46:10.900 and so it went

00:46:12.140 from nearly nothing

00:46:12.860 to massive

00:46:13.700 and I couldn't

00:46:15.880 deal with all

00:46:16.220 the material

00:46:16.540 it was so awful

00:46:17.520 to look at

00:46:18.080 but I had someone

00:46:19.160 go through a

00:46:19.860 friend of mine

00:46:20.260 and detail it

00:46:21.240 all and there

00:46:21.580 was like 90

00:46:22.220 pages of material

00:46:23.120 I sent it to

00:46:24.140 the police

00:46:24.500 and they did

00:46:24.820 nothing

00:46:25.460 it was completely

00:46:26.620 useless

00:46:27.040 so which was

00:46:29.300 actually very

00:46:29.620 frustrating

00:46:30.000 they thought well

00:46:30.700 you know if

00:46:31.080 you're actually

00:46:31.360 threatening to

00:46:31.740 kill somebody

00:46:32.280 and you're

00:46:32.860 trying to find

00:46:33.200 out about their

00:46:33.600 child and their

00:46:34.460 life you're

00:46:35.100 trying to find

00:46:35.440 out where their

00:46:35.860 place of work is

00:46:36.560 and what office

00:46:37.000 they've got

00:46:37.440 that's like pretty

00:46:38.340 bad like could you

00:46:39.200 do something

00:46:39.740 can you know

00:46:40.240 nothing happened

00:46:42.340 so there are

00:46:43.200 limits to this

00:46:43.820 stuff I think

00:46:44.380 there really is

00:46:45.280 actual limits

00:46:46.020 well no one in

00:46:47.360 their right mind

00:46:48.120 would say that

00:46:48.860 free speech is

00:46:49.760 about the ability

00:46:50.600 to send people

00:46:51.340 death threats

00:46:51.960 that's not free

00:46:53.760 speech

00:46:54.140 and look even

00:46:56.700 the Lucy Connolly

00:46:57.460 thing look I

00:46:58.360 think the sentence

00:46:59.600 that she got

00:47:00.340 is outrageous

00:47:01.840 there's no other

00:47:03.320 way to put it

00:47:04.020 that's mad

00:47:04.520 now her tweet

00:47:05.680 taken in the

00:47:07.700 context in which

00:47:08.460 it was going on

00:47:09.320 can be perceived

00:47:10.940 by some people

00:47:12.160 as an incitement

00:47:13.660 to violence

00:47:14.660 in the middle

00:47:15.440 of riots

00:47:15.980 that might be

00:47:16.500 quite dangerous

00:47:16.980 I think the

00:47:17.640 problem we've

00:47:18.140 got is partly

00:47:18.960 technological

00:47:19.580 which is 20

00:47:21.520 years ago if

00:47:22.200 there were riots

00:47:22.720 happening and

00:47:23.280 you were sitting

00:47:23.720 in the pub

00:47:24.220 with your mates

00:47:24.800 go I was

00:47:25.640 going to burn

00:47:26.100 down the

00:47:26.500 no one would

00:47:27.620 no one would

00:47:28.740 take that

00:47:29.100 seriously

00:47:29.560 and it's

00:47:30.940 then a matter

00:47:31.920 of personal

00:47:32.460 opinion whether

00:47:33.100 you think

00:47:33.580 someone venting

00:47:34.400 on social media

00:47:35.200 has probably

00:47:35.600 had a few

00:47:36.020 drinks or

00:47:36.580 whatever

00:47:36.820 whether that's

00:47:38.280 to be taken

00:47:38.860 seriously but

00:47:39.540 now it's almost

00:47:40.100 like everyone

00:47:40.700 has a microphone

00:47:41.480 and everyone

00:47:42.020 is therefore

00:47:42.480 treated as a

00:47:43.180 broadcaster

00:47:43.820 and so Lucy

00:47:45.440 Connolly is

00:47:45.920 effectively treated

00:47:46.700 as a journalist

00:47:47.540 who went on

00:47:48.160 TV and said

00:47:48.880 burn down the

00:47:49.520 hotels

00:47:49.940 right which I

00:47:51.440 don't think is

00:47:52.100 what happened

00:47:52.700 but even if you

00:47:53.920 think to some

00:47:54.960 extent that is

00:47:55.820 what happened

00:47:56.440 the contrast you

00:47:58.160 make I think is

00:47:58.700 very fair which

00:47:59.580 is there are

00:48:00.280 people who

00:48:00.860 actually committed

00:48:01.880 acts of

00:48:02.540 violence who

00:48:03.840 got a similar

00:48:04.620 or smaller or

00:48:06.000 slightly bigger

00:48:06.620 sentence which I

00:48:07.420 just think is

00:48:07.940 insane

00:48:08.340 and what I

00:48:09.580 think the

00:48:10.300 reason people

00:48:10.680 bring up her

00:48:11.240 case but more

00:48:11.800 broadly the

00:48:12.580 restrictions around

00:48:13.360 speech is that

00:48:15.420 it shows that

00:48:15.980 there are police

00:48:16.720 forces in the

00:48:17.400 country that do

00:48:18.760 seem to have

00:48:19.480 the resources to

00:48:20.680 send six guys to

00:48:21.660 arrest and take a

00:48:24.520 former police

00:48:25.640 officer to a

00:48:27.040 police station

00:48:28.760 because he tweeted

00:48:30.520 something about

00:48:31.580 anti-Israel

00:48:32.900 protests and then

00:48:34.620 he had some

00:48:34.980 Douglas Murray books

00:48:35.740 on his bookshelf

00:48:36.340 which would judge to

00:48:37.040 be very brexity or

00:48:37.940 whatever the quote

00:48:38.740 was you know and

00:48:39.920 I think you just

00:48:40.960 go if the police

00:48:42.620 were just struggling

00:48:43.300 across the board

00:48:44.140 people would go

00:48:45.060 look the economy as

00:48:46.280 you say is not

00:48:46.820 doing very well the

00:48:47.620 police are struggling

00:48:48.240 we know officers are

00:48:49.080 working very hard

00:48:49.860 individually a lot of

00:48:51.240 them but the country

00:48:53.000 is where it is but

00:48:53.940 when you see

00:48:54.680 instances where that

00:48:56.120 happens that's when

00:48:57.040 you go okay well

00:48:57.680 this this clearly is

00:48:58.620 not just about the

00:48:59.480 resources it's also

00:49:00.260 about priorities

00:49:00.900 yeah I think that's

00:49:01.960 the frustrating part of

00:49:02.780 it is exactly as

00:49:04.360 you were saying and

00:49:04.840 like I was saying

00:49:05.300 with Liz Connolly

00:49:06.260 you've got both the

00:49:07.840 fact that apparently

00:49:08.940 our prisons are

00:49:09.440 completely full so we

00:49:10.260 can't do anything but

00:49:11.620 also we're going to

00:49:12.140 give this person an

00:49:12.860 incredibly long

00:49:13.580 sentence whilst giving

00:49:14.780 domestic abusers who

00:49:15.740 almost beat their

00:49:16.200 girlfriend to death

00:49:16.880 only a couple of

00:49:18.040 months more that's

00:49:19.120 just like that is not

00:49:21.600 I think how the

00:49:22.160 British public would

00:49:22.860 prioritize their

00:49:23.620 sentencing and it's

00:49:24.760 very difficult to see

00:49:25.360 what the actual

00:49:26.020 thoughts are behind

00:49:27.160 that and then you've

00:49:27.760 got the actual

00:49:28.200 policing side where

00:49:29.840 why are they spending

00:49:30.560 time on this when

00:49:31.400 they are not going

00:49:32.280 we're not checking

00:49:33.200 CCTV you know this

00:49:34.760 is something which is

00:49:35.600 clearly very very

00:49:36.760 basic expectation

00:49:37.760 especially you know

00:49:40.200 directly outside of a

00:49:41.340 you know the Mets

00:49:42.120 headquarters even there

00:49:43.160 right they're not

00:49:43.660 going to check your

00:49:44.020 CCTV your car's stolen

00:49:45.600 I've heard repeated

00:49:47.220 cases where they are

00:49:48.260 not checking CCTV

00:49:49.200 this is you've you've

00:49:51.420 got GPS trackers you

00:49:52.500 can point to where it

00:49:53.360 is in the street right

00:49:54.560 now they're not going

00:49:55.540 to go after it but if

00:49:57.180 someone's tweeted

00:49:57.680 something they will

00:49:58.380 send like I've seen

00:49:59.360 those videos like six

00:50:00.420 officers to your

00:50:01.180 front door this is

00:50:01.960 that's obviously not

00:50:03.200 a good use of

00:50:03.720 resources now I'm

00:50:04.900 sure there's like

00:50:05.560 complexities there's

00:50:06.600 edge cases there's

00:50:07.420 mud but in general

00:50:08.420 well that guy got

00:50:09.300 just got paid 20

00:50:10.060 grand in compensation

00:50:10.840 thanks to the free

00:50:11.800 speech union who

00:50:12.740 should do should get

00:50:13.960 a shout out because

00:50:14.640 they're doing great

00:50:15.200 work to protect people

00:50:16.280 against this stuff

00:50:16.960 but you know one

00:50:19.120 thing I also wanted to

00:50:20.020 ask you as well

00:50:20.680 Lawrence is one of the

00:50:21.680 things I saw in

00:50:23.220 response to both your

00:50:24.100 video and Robert

00:50:24.960 Jenner's video is that

00:50:26.760 when you point out that

00:50:28.800 certain types of crime

00:50:30.340 have effectively been

00:50:31.280 decriminalized people

00:50:33.180 have a go at you

00:50:33.960 yeah yeah very very

00:50:36.400 that I really don't

00:50:38.020 get did you get a lot

00:50:39.100 of that yeah I got a

00:50:40.760 lot of pushback on

00:50:41.460 saying that basically

00:50:42.320 it's a theft is legal

00:50:44.020 in Britain I don't

00:50:46.120 really understand quite

00:50:47.520 the pushback I guess

00:50:48.580 it's like technically

00:50:49.640 it's not illegal because

00:50:51.660 it's on the statute book

00:50:52.940 somewhere but I mean

00:50:54.000 that's a relief yeah I

00:50:55.120 mean you could you can

00:50:56.120 write down whatever you

00:50:56.780 want but I mean I

00:50:57.940 actually went to there

00:51:00.420 was a talk in parliament

00:51:02.320 given by Met officers

00:51:05.500 on phone theft and

00:51:07.540 several of the MPs in

00:51:08.760 the room raised their

00:51:09.480 hands and said I have

00:51:11.340 had my phone stolen or

00:51:12.840 my my constituents have

00:51:14.420 had their phone stolen

00:51:15.040 and they say you guys

00:51:16.000 don't check CCTV or

00:51:17.340 cash these guys what's

00:51:19.180 going on and they

00:51:20.400 literally said to them

00:51:21.220 well it is it I'm

00:51:22.820 telling you now it's

00:51:23.380 very sad that some of

00:51:24.240 you have experienced

00:51:25.380 you know not to the

00:51:26.700 standard we expect but

00:51:27.820 I'm telling you right

00:51:28.440 now it is our absolute

00:51:30.340 guaranteed procedure

00:51:31.820 that we will follow up

00:51:33.820 on every lead for every

00:51:35.300 crime and we check all

00:51:36.700 CCTV it's obviously not

00:51:39.200 true like you're telling

00:51:40.360 I'm sure it's true in

00:51:41.640 terms of the policy is

00:51:42.600 written down somewhere

00:51:43.520 it's obviously not

00:51:45.000 practically true at all

00:51:46.620 and yet they just come

00:51:47.860 out and state it in that

00:51:48.820 way I think that's the

00:51:50.180 kind of thing that people

00:51:50.920 are thinking about when

00:51:51.720 they say well no

00:51:52.240 technically is actually

00:51:53.720 legal and sometimes we

00:51:54.920 catch people but the

00:51:56.240 number is you know when

00:51:57.440 you're talking less than

00:51:58.120 one percent of identifying

00:51:59.480 someone as a suspect

00:52:01.100 doesn't I don't think

00:52:02.900 anyone would look at that

00:52:03.660 and say that's an

00:52:04.200 effective system and

00:52:05.460 that's clearly you know

00:52:06.700 clearly working as

00:52:07.600 intended and we actually

00:52:08.980 have you know most of

00:52:10.420 the time you're 99.9%

00:52:11.740 or whatever they'll get

00:52:12.560 away with it but yeah

00:52:14.040 no I totally understand

00:52:14.960 that point but I'm

00:52:15.640 getting at something else

00:52:16.960 which is that I think

00:52:18.140 this seems to be

00:52:19.320 inexplicably to me I

00:52:20.540 don't understand even what

00:52:21.480 the motivation for it is

00:52:22.760 exactly because it's not

00:52:25.080 even party political like

00:52:26.360 okay the labor government

00:52:27.380 are currently in charge so

00:52:28.540 if you make a point about

00:52:29.960 crime today this very day

00:52:31.840 today that might be seen

00:52:33.700 as an anti-labor point but

00:52:35.520 I think almost everybody

00:52:36.540 would acknowledge that it

00:52:37.420 was as bad under the

00:52:38.680 conservatives for 14 years

00:52:40.020 as well and yet there

00:52:41.860 seems to be a large

00:52:42.960 constituency of people in

00:52:44.200 the country and I'm not

00:52:45.260 just talking about random

00:52:46.120 people on the internet I'm

00:52:47.020 talking about journalists

00:52:47.880 I'm talking about

00:52:48.580 broadcasters I'm talking

00:52:49.640 about politicians even

00:52:50.780 who when somebody points

00:52:53.700 out that crime is not

00:52:55.880 pursued yeah they attack

00:52:58.400 the person who is

00:52:59.460 highlighting this yeah I

00:53:00.980 don't do you have any

00:53:02.340 thoughts on why that

00:53:03.460 that constituency seems to

00:53:05.220 exist I think it is

00:53:06.440 partly the ideological

00:53:07.520 uh the ideological kind of

00:53:09.300 concerns we're talking

00:53:09.980 about earlier it is

00:53:11.000 actually quite inconvenient

00:53:11.960 if you really really

00:53:13.380 believe that um prison is

00:53:16.020 a Victorian institution

00:53:17.600 that should be over with

00:53:18.960 now and that actually it

00:53:20.940 doesn't matter how much

00:53:21.960 you you push police on to

00:53:23.960 people etc that you don't

00:53:25.520 need all this kind of like

00:53:26.440 um you know you don't need

00:53:28.700 to have investigations in

00:53:29.680 this way that actually what

00:53:30.600 will happen over time is

00:53:31.780 that with the right you know

00:53:33.260 the right kind of uh social

00:53:35.120 networks uh people won't

00:53:37.740 turn to crime um you know

00:53:39.960 and uh you know community

00:53:41.240 centers is often the kind of

00:53:42.380 like the talking point you

00:53:43.500 know um if if you think of

00:53:45.680 it in those terms alone it's

00:53:47.980 very inconvenient to see

00:53:49.200 well the the less that we

00:53:51.300 have focused on these areas

00:53:52.300 of crime the more they

00:53:53.560 have ticked up that these

00:53:55.000 are largely economic crimes

00:53:56.460 that people are doing

00:53:57.180 because they can pay you

00:53:58.080 quite well um you can do

00:54:00.180 them at scale uh and you

00:54:02.360 can start setting up and

00:54:03.600 running these supply chains

00:54:04.720 and you can all get you know

00:54:05.840 some good money into the

00:54:07.300 door um and they're quite

00:54:09.380 easy it's all very

00:54:11.120 inconvenient and when you

00:54:12.680 look at the actual facts of

00:54:14.340 if you like in the netherlands

00:54:16.200 when they put in the ten

00:54:17.020 strikes rule for um theft

00:54:19.160 burglary offenses they dropped

00:54:20.580 by 25 percent because it

00:54:22.340 ended up being you just a lot

00:54:23.680 of people away for longer

00:54:24.420 who who committed those

00:54:25.800 offenses we see in italy when

00:54:28.300 they let more people out of

00:54:30.320 prison earlier crime shot up

00:54:32.700 wow like it's shocking yeah

00:54:34.680 it's um you know those are

00:54:36.200 all incredibly inconvenient

00:54:37.360 realities and as a result um

00:54:40.900 you don't really want to deal

00:54:42.380 with what's happening so

00:54:43.680 instead you just try to

00:54:44.900 shove it under the rug

00:54:45.760 repeatedly again and say

00:54:47.240 well actually like if you

00:54:48.680 look at overall crime because

00:54:50.340 of things like murders and

00:54:51.200 otherwise which actually

00:54:51.860 police do spend significant

00:54:53.100 time on uh crime is going

00:54:54.860 down well all these aspects

00:54:56.440 of exploding to the highest

00:54:57.520 ever on record well yeah

00:54:59.320 yeah yeah but but let's

00:55:00.600 talk about those

00:55:01.280 all right bit of an

00:55:03.820 unexpected one for you but

00:55:05.520 this actually got my

00:55:06.640 attention the other day i was

00:55:08.560 scrolling online and came

00:55:10.100 across this video from none

00:55:11.500 other than chuck norris yes

00:55:13.760 that chuck norris he's in

00:55:15.720 his 80s now and according

00:55:17.080 to him he still feels like

00:55:18.940 he's in his 50s and

00:55:20.460 honestly watching it i could

00:55:22.220 believe it the video goes

00:55:23.920 through three specific foods

00:55:25.660 he says you should avoid like

00:55:27.380 the plague and a few other

00:55:29.200 things he's doing to keep in

00:55:30.560 shape and stay sharp i was

00:55:32.480 skeptical at first the stuff

00:55:34.680 he suggests is genuinely simple

00:55:36.520 and actually makes a lot of

00:55:37.960 sense if you're interested in

00:55:39.760 health energy or just curious

00:55:41.840 what chuck norris swears by at

00:55:43.720 80 plus this is worth your

00:55:46.020 time watch the video now at

00:55:48.020 chuckdefense.com slash trigger

00:55:51.240 that's chuckdefense.com slash

00:55:54.600 trigger and we put the link in

00:55:56.540 the description below to make it

00:55:58.220 easy

00:55:58.640 you know there's there's one part

00:56:01.760 that we haven't discussed which

00:56:03.080 is we obviously need a police

00:56:04.980 force but we also need a social

00:56:08.480 contract between the public and

00:56:10.480 the police force which allows

00:56:12.160 the police to be able to police

00:56:14.040 effectively yeah if that social

00:56:16.260 contract is broken which is what

00:56:18.940 is happening now i mean we're

00:56:21.800 going to end up in a pretty dark

00:56:22.960 place aren't we where the police

00:56:25.300 aren't trusted yeah yeah i think

00:56:27.960 we're already there i i think it's

00:56:29.800 getting worse and worse every every

00:56:31.400 year i think um officers themselves

00:56:34.440 feel uh demoralized um i think

00:56:37.940 that the public doesn't trust the

00:56:39.180 police to solve things um there's

00:56:41.920 no one i've talked to who said oh

00:56:43.440 yeah you know the um i expected

00:56:45.380 when i called the police for them to

00:56:46.560 do a great investigation i mean even

00:56:48.560 i did expect them to check ccdb right

00:56:50.360 and i and i didn't have but um it's

00:56:52.940 it's something which i think the

00:56:54.960 public has lost trust in the

00:56:56.240 institutions in general lost trust in

00:56:58.100 the courts i mean when it takes you

00:56:59.160 four years someone's being raped it

00:57:01.660 takes four years to get to trial now

00:57:03.920 there's trials there's cases already

00:57:05.220 soon to be put to trial where they

00:57:07.020 will be um not on trial until after the

00:57:10.500 next election and what's the response

00:57:13.360 of the system well we used to get like

00:57:15.160 um the breakdown of cases uh in terms

00:57:19.500 of how many in the backlog monthly we

00:57:21.300 now only get them quarterly i wonder

00:57:22.640 why that is you know it's very

00:57:24.340 embarrassing when you see every

00:57:25.300 single month that figure tick up it's

00:57:27.220 ticking up since like 2017 like it's

00:57:30.060 very clear failure nobody wants to

00:57:32.720 actually look at this in detail and ask

00:57:35.220 okay how do we force the courts open

00:57:37.460 it'd be awkward how do we force uh the

00:57:40.600 met to do who who is it who gets fired

00:57:43.280 when it goes wrong all these questions

00:57:44.700 and that requires like bravery and

00:57:47.080 leadership and everything else otherwise

00:57:49.100 trust institutions just continues to

00:57:51.860 decline and it's also as well you know

00:57:54.200 the post george floyd this you know

00:57:56.800 constantly hyper fixated on race i mean

00:58:00.420 we saw with the chris cabber case i mean

00:58:03.120 this was a guy who is under investigation

00:58:05.440 for attempted murder for shooting someone

00:58:08.080 allegedly in a nightclub he then got in

00:58:10.600 a car refused to stop when the police

00:58:13.220 demanded that he should he then was

00:58:15.600 ramming police cars he got shot and then

00:58:19.460 there's this minority of people who then

00:58:21.900 who've got their arms up in the air and

00:58:23.380 go oh he was a good guy you know he

00:58:25.560 didn't deserve to get shot

00:58:26.860 and you and then the police officer who

00:58:29.800 shot him is then put on trial and you

00:58:31.520 you're thinking this is a world where

00:58:34.180 nothing makes sense anymore how can

00:58:37.340 police possibly be allowed to do their

00:58:39.540 jobs when if you're a firearms officer

00:58:42.320 the moment you discharge your weapon

00:58:44.640 even in a case like chris cabber where

00:58:47.200 you have that was the correct course of

00:58:50.460 action to take you are a risk of going to

00:58:53.280 prison losing your job or just at the

00:58:56.300 very best being involved in a in a court

00:58:58.640 case which is going to be profoundly

00:59:00.060 stressful for nine on two if not three

00:59:02.680 years yeah i mean i i find it such a

00:59:05.440 interesting in all senses of the word

00:59:08.660 kind of um situation that we've ended up

00:59:11.300 with uh i'm deeply concerned about i don't

00:59:14.320 know the idea of authorities misusing their

00:59:17.080 power we have to be able to hold police

00:59:18.840 to account we have to be able to check

00:59:20.480 that they're actually doing their jobs

00:59:21.600 the problem is that there is also so

00:59:25.360 many cases now of officers doing their

00:59:28.840 duty and either something going wrong for

00:59:31.660 various reasons and suddenly finding that

00:59:34.460 they're not now just facing even just

00:59:36.780 internal disciplinary action but criminal

00:59:38.960 and otherwise you add all that on top of

00:59:41.200 the fact that job pay is not great to

00:59:43.080 start with yeah and the fact of all the

00:59:44.840 stuff i was talking about earlier you

00:59:46.140 discourage people from entering the

00:59:47.340 police force why would you it's it's a

00:59:49.560 complete minefield and so i i think we've

00:59:52.360 ended up we're ending up in another bad

00:59:53.940 situation here not not to kind of pile on

00:59:56.440 these but like this is unfortunate reality

00:59:58.660 um as a result you get less people less

01:00:02.520 talented people going to the police they

01:00:03.940 have the lowest standards more and more

01:00:05.180 as a result you probably need to check on

01:00:06.820 them more and more because now they're

01:00:08.140 probably doing a bunch of stuff they

01:00:09.120 shouldn't be doing and that just keeps

01:00:10.680 that cycle going the problem is at the

01:00:12.400 moment it is extremely bad like for

01:00:14.360 officers now there are so many things

01:00:16.800 that if you get wrong or even if you

01:00:18.680 don't get wrong you just get a massive

01:00:20.960 spotlight a national spotlight on you it

01:00:24.220 is incredibly stressful i cannot imagine

01:00:26.620 doing that job and thinking if i arrest

01:00:28.740 this person and it's found to be an

01:00:31.300 incorrect arrest like one of them were

01:00:32.380 recently um someone who actually uh was

01:00:35.240 accused of evading affair um and an

01:00:38.580 officer did intervene this a couple of

01:00:39.740 years ago now uh one of the reasons why

01:00:41.520 apparently officers did this much less

01:00:42.980 now they intervened and um this person

01:00:46.460 had not evaded an affair um evaded affair

01:00:49.980 but um the officer arrested them there

01:00:52.200 were some harsh words exchanged and the

01:00:54.380 officer was um placed under investigation

01:00:58.000 including for assault not because they

01:01:00.140 punched him anything like that but just

01:01:01.200 for the arrest itself and holding the

01:01:03.180 person down because they were resisting

01:01:04.980 arrest that's an awful situation to be in

01:01:08.060 now and it suddenly becomes something

01:01:09.780 which could easily explode into a national

01:01:11.480 story that is not a nice position to be

01:01:14.700 in and i can see why so many officers are

01:01:16.220 incredibly stressed and incredibly worried

01:01:17.820 because bluntly they have good reason to

01:01:20.140 be and that's not a that's not a position

01:01:21.860 to be in it's also the power of the

01:01:23.500 internet where you can record an officer

01:01:26.120 making an arrest and then you can cut it

01:01:29.580 and make it look in a police in a

01:01:31.100 particular way like it's almost police

01:01:32.800 brutality you can go oh why did the

01:01:34.920 officer arrest him in such a rough

01:01:36.340 manner but you've cut out the bit where

01:01:38.680 the officer got punched in the head three

01:01:40.220 times well i mean the manchester airport

01:01:42.960 situation last year there's a very good

01:01:45.700 example of this where a clip was

01:01:47.460 maliciously edited effectively to cut out

01:01:50.980 why the police officer was using as much

01:01:53.080 for i think they've been cleared since

01:01:54.300 from what you know from what i've read

01:01:55.460 and you know these people were treated as

01:02:00.720 like racist violent you know it was crazy

01:02:05.540 and so it's a very difficult job this is

01:02:07.380 one thing i hope people take away from

01:02:09.180 this i don't think any of the three of us

01:02:10.440 are criticizing police officers but as a

01:02:14.440 system there are a lot of problems yeah

01:02:16.780 and and like good officers as i say are

01:02:19.100 like in a very very bad and difficult

01:02:21.080 position and the fact that that isn't at

01:02:23.820 the forefront of the government's

01:02:25.360 thinking right now in the policing bill

01:02:27.360 right now with the sentencing review

01:02:29.100 they're not focusing on how do we get

01:02:31.500 and keep the best talent in policing that

01:02:33.920 we possibly can and how do we build a

01:02:35.840 service that makes people feel safe

01:02:37.660 instead we're getting this very weird

01:02:41.260 patchy system where we're going to

01:02:42.820 release criminals earlier than ever

01:02:44.880 send fewer of them to jail than ever

01:02:49.060 before even though we're already doing

01:02:50.200 that um and instead we're going to uh

01:02:53.960 keep officers in this position where we

01:02:56.980 can't recruit the numbers we point blame

01:02:59.080 around to various different people we

01:03:01.020 don't build the prisons don't designate

01:03:02.520 emergency prisons don't open the courts

01:03:04.080 for longer and we keep looking at it

01:03:05.840 going wow why is this getting worse

01:03:07.300 and i'm curious uh well my question is

01:03:11.360 the question i was about to ask has an

01:03:12.960 assumption built into it what i was

01:03:15.100 going to say is why have we not seen

01:03:17.140 much uh of much expression of these

01:03:20.820 concerns which i know lots of people

01:03:23.140 share in the political system i don't

01:03:25.520 hear any party really talking about

01:03:28.640 dealing with this kind of crime do you

01:03:31.140 am i wrong about this uh i mean that's

01:03:33.280 why i started up crush crime i was like

01:03:35.720 absolutely stunned nobody was talking

01:03:37.860 about this thing that was clearly being

01:03:39.280 experienced by everyone all over the

01:03:40.520 place um you know obviously jenrich is

01:03:42.520 taking up he's taken up our point on

01:03:44.600 career criminals um and he's now started

01:03:47.300 talking about fair evaders and other

01:03:49.300 such like crimes like this tool theft he

01:03:51.340 was talking about as well um uh labor

01:03:54.900 have looked like flirted closely maybe

01:03:58.300 once or twice with maybe we're going to

01:03:59.920 open some more prisons and now that now

01:04:02.000 they're committed to building more

01:04:03.280 prisons frankly you know to give them

01:04:05.260 their due on this more than the tourists

01:04:07.180 did in 14 years of government but still

01:04:09.720 nowhere near enough because the hole is

01:04:11.080 so bad um but it is very strange to me

01:04:14.240 that there is not a concerted effort for

01:04:16.240 example you have to go back too far like

01:04:17.880 new labor was incredibly focused on this

01:04:19.880 tough on crime tough on the causes of

01:04:21.640 crime yeah and and they did a i mean

01:04:23.500 they built over 20 000 prison places uh

01:04:26.560 they actually bought in of course the

01:04:28.020 asbo system other systems to deal with

01:04:29.760 low-level crime and to get it because

01:04:31.900 one of the parts that is missing from

01:04:33.720 this is that you have these career

01:04:35.320 criminals and it's very difficult then to

01:04:37.580 rehabilitate the the it's unclear it all

01:04:40.320 gets quite messy it's quite complex because

01:04:42.300 of all the factors that go into it um but

01:04:45.060 one of the things we do know is that if

01:04:47.120 you get people on their first or second

01:04:48.720 offense very quickly and you send them to

01:04:51.400 court very quickly and they get a quick

01:04:53.420 feedback loop it doesn't even have to be a

01:04:55.120 prison time just something something to

01:04:57.880 show them we are watching you you aren't

01:05:00.080 getting away with this yeah we then see

01:05:02.180 many fewer of them become crippled as

01:05:05.320 otherwise would have been so fast action

01:05:08.380 actually good policing mixed with quick

01:05:10.680 action in the courts where you can just

01:05:12.600 like ankle tag or whatever does stop

01:05:14.840 people many of them before they get to

01:05:17.680 the point where they are now like in this

01:05:20.460 for the long term and it becomes much

01:05:22.320 much harder to rehabilitate then that is

01:05:24.440 the kind of focus that they should be

01:05:27.240 taking and asking what is the purpose of

01:05:29.340 our police well make the streets safer

01:05:31.420 purpose of our courts make the streets

01:05:33.040 safer we need to target much more sensibly

01:05:35.560 than we currently are and it will pay off

01:05:37.180 not first year give it two or three years

01:05:40.080 and you'll start to see the payoff and

01:05:41.360 people will see a massive improvement in

01:05:42.820 their lives

01:05:43.260 the one thing that i found quite

01:05:47.140 interesting about this as we talk is i go

01:05:49.240 well if the law isn't being applied it's

01:05:52.460 not being upheld at what point does the

01:05:56.720 general public start to uphold the law

01:05:58.780 you guys are British you're not going to

01:06:01.560 do anything about it

01:06:02.560 it's not your culture well it's not no

01:06:06.640 the amazing thing about Britain is

01:06:08.700 everyone kind of get is allowed to get

01:06:10.700 on with it the downside of that is

01:06:12.640 British people will literally turn away

01:06:14.400 when they see a crime being committed

01:06:15.760 there is like um i think it is like a

01:06:18.800 generally really great thing about

01:06:20.300 Britain that people really do respect

01:06:22.580 the rules and they find it very very

01:06:24.620 upsetting when people don't yes um which

01:06:26.760 is why i think also this is such an

01:06:28.080 effect on the national psyche it's like

01:06:29.520 because you can't you can't that's not a

01:06:31.820 forever thing that's a thing that took a

01:06:33.520 lot of time to build a lot of history

01:06:35.420 to build very good point and now we've

01:06:37.260 kind of mistreated it the last 20 30

01:06:39.880 years yeah and as a result of that that

01:06:42.520 will go like that's not that's very

01:06:44.620 hard fought and very easy to lose it's

01:06:46.960 like anything right you it's a long time

01:06:48.540 to build something not much time at all

01:06:49.980 to destroy it and we are now so many

01:06:53.560 areas of uh British life we are really

01:06:56.100 taking an axe to and kicking repeatedly

01:06:57.740 because we've inherited a whole bunch of

01:07:01.520 kind of background beliefs it took a long

01:07:03.420 time to build and so we've taken them for

01:07:04.740 granted that will collapse that will

01:07:07.180 change um and i i do think for example

01:07:10.920 with when my sister-in-law's phone got

01:07:12.540 stolen it's only a few weeks after i

01:07:13.920 launched as i said uh i had several dms

01:07:16.720 from people saying you say you know where

01:07:18.820 the address is tell me like that was like

01:07:22.460 a real shock for me in that moment they

01:07:24.360 didn't know me but they were thinking

01:07:26.220 screw it i have an opportunity now

01:07:29.000 finally to do something about this you

01:07:30.880 know people feel very powerless they

01:07:32.380 feel very very angry and extremely

01:07:33.900 powerless and that is because

01:07:35.860 politicians aren't listening the police

01:07:37.940 aren't doing their jobs the courts aren't

01:07:39.220 doing the jobs that makes you feel

01:07:41.020 powerless at a certain point you're right

01:07:43.200 in that Brits don't naturally want to do

01:07:45.680 this by any standard but at some point i

01:07:47.620 think it does become dangerous and i

01:07:49.700 really want things now to take that

01:07:52.200 energy and put it into constructive things

01:07:54.760 that build things make things and change

01:07:56.820 things for the better before they get

01:07:58.580 worse and before we lose something

01:07:59.780 that's incredibly hard fought and it also

01:08:02.600 makes us a laughingstock internationally

01:08:04.380 like when i'm gigging in comedy clubs in

01:08:06.040 america the the thing that americans

01:08:08.340 always ask me is when i say i'm from

01:08:10.640 london the one of the first things they

01:08:12.580 talk about is the crime yeah they talk

01:08:15.160 about crime they talk about and there's

01:08:18.140 quite a few of them go yeah you know i'm

01:08:20.220 doing a show in london but i'm a bit

01:08:21.880 nervous because of the crime how bad is

01:08:23.800 it this is really affecting our economy

01:08:26.440 we make a lot of money in this country

01:08:28.240 deservedly so because it's wonderful

01:08:29.800 from tourism people should want to come

01:08:32.240 to this country and experience the beauty

01:08:34.420 of the countryside the amazing the amazing

01:08:36.980 city that is london all the rest of it

01:08:38.880 but if people think that they're going to

01:08:41.540 come here and they're going to get robbed

01:08:43.580 mugged you know pickpocketed why would

01:08:46.900 you yeah yeah it's really really sad and

01:08:49.800 that's something which we've we have

01:08:51.640 allowed to happen and our politicians

01:08:53.540 have completely actively allowed

01:08:55.120 sometimes even sponsored by like very

01:08:56.820 bad ideas and viewpoints and still like

01:08:59.480 the path right now is that we're still

01:09:00.820 facing that same path you know um if

01:09:03.760 there's one thing that we can say like

01:09:05.120 yes they've been building these prisons

01:09:06.220 not enough nowhere near enough on time

01:09:08.420 by the time they finish it'll be the

01:09:09.460 same where we are now um but what are

01:09:13.560 the conservatives saying have they come

01:09:14.840 out and said we are we are sorry we

01:09:17.240 completely failed on prisons we actually

01:09:19.200 completely failed because the concern is

01:09:21.600 how do you start to trust any politicians

01:09:23.380 going forward until they can actually

01:09:25.060 state yes this was a failure we are going

01:09:27.740 to fix it and that's just not what i'm

01:09:30.440 seeing at all it does seem a bit of an

01:09:32.340 open goal if i'm honest even if you're a

01:09:34.600 let's be honest not all politicians are

01:09:36.760 entirely principled and honest all of the

01:09:38.580 time but

01:09:39.480 uncontroversial statement i think uh if you

01:09:45.020 were you know a let's say either a a kind

01:09:49.360 of blue labor you were trying to appeal to

01:09:52.060 the working man so to speak or if you're a

01:09:54.920 center-right politician whether it's even

01:09:56.480 more natural to talk about toughness on

01:09:58.440 crime and things like that that it's a bit

01:10:01.580 of an open goal to say you know this is

01:10:04.540 happening you are feeling less safe we are

01:10:08.200 about cracking down on crime we're gonna

01:10:10.800 make and i don't i don't even hear reform

01:10:12.960 making that argument oddly enough do you

01:10:15.060 i mean i might be not paying attention

01:10:17.220 but no there's there's very very very little

01:10:19.180 discussion on crime in general why do you

01:10:21.260 think that is that's weird yeah i think i

01:10:24.460 do think it's in part ideological i think

01:10:26.860 it's also in part british politics the

01:10:29.040 thing that i've really learned about this

01:10:30.380 over the last few years like coming in

01:10:31.700 kind of out from like the side in yeah it's

01:10:34.120 like it is highly social so it's not very

01:10:37.280 seemly to speak at dinners and so forth

01:10:40.120 about crime it comes across as like a bit

01:10:42.800 you know a bit i don't know polite

01:10:45.240 impolite i guess yeah like it's it's not

01:10:47.260 very fun conversation um and it's kind of

01:10:50.300 like working class tabloidy you know to

01:10:53.660 discuss it so it's like low status i think

01:10:56.500 that's a big thing in politics like it's

01:10:58.020 seen as like not very intellectual about

01:10:59.620 crime if they want to keep that up they're

01:11:01.260 gonna find out it gets pretty high status

01:11:03.120 pretty quickly yeah it's it's which is

01:11:05.480 exactly why i wanted to bring because

01:11:07.320 obviously like actual people do deal with

01:11:10.180 this every single day and in london now

01:11:12.100 it's happening to everyone no matter what

01:11:13.780 your social class is it's happening all

01:11:15.140 the time it's happening around you all the

01:11:16.940 time and yet politicians still view it

01:11:18.800 very much as a well that's kind of a more

01:11:21.100 tabloidy thing it's a bit you know

01:11:23.220 actually you know it's not very educated

01:11:26.080 to speak in that way they wouldn't actually

01:11:27.340 say those words right yeah but you know

01:11:29.540 you get that sense that's it yes do you

01:11:31.580 think it's also the attitude and here comes a

01:11:34.380 chip on the shoulder is that let's be

01:11:36.620 honest crime affects mainly poorer and

01:11:39.220 working class people yeah the more the

01:11:41.120 richer you are the more the higher up you

01:11:43.320 are on the social order the less likely

01:11:45.240 you are to be affected by crime

01:11:46.780 therefore it's not going to be as an

01:11:48.680 immediate and pressing concern to you

01:11:50.380 then if you live in a council estate in

01:11:52.480 Rotherham yeah i mean it's it's like i

01:11:54.180 tried to make this argument to people

01:11:55.120 several times including journalists who

01:11:57.160 were um some of which were extremely

01:12:00.120 critical about exactly you said like

01:12:01.820 saying swathes of crime is legal in this

01:12:03.320 country well uh you can very easily

01:12:06.620 point to a graph that says well you know

01:12:08.280 overall it's it's getting better for you

01:12:10.280 in multiple areas across the country it is

01:12:12.060 getting worse like knife crime in some

01:12:13.900 areas has increased like quite dramatically

01:12:15.680 what do you say to those areas well at the

01:12:19.060 moment the kind of established view is to

01:12:20.720 say to them well don't worry about it

01:12:21.760 because if you look at this graph here you

01:12:23.820 can see that actually like you your area

01:12:26.660 might be worse but overall we're doing quite

01:12:28.240 well right you know that doesn't it's not

01:12:30.660 great for those people you know um and uh

01:12:33.440 and when you start focusing on different

01:12:34.940 areas of crime you say well this is

01:12:36.140 getting this is the worst it's literally

01:12:37.860 ever been well yes but you know like zoom

01:12:41.080 out a bit be a bit more educated about it

01:12:42.760 and then you'll realize it's okay when

01:12:44.200 your phone's stolen you say thank god it's

01:12:46.180 just that you know like that's obviously

01:12:48.640 not what people how people actually

01:12:51.040 interact with their day-to-day lives and

01:12:53.260 it's obviously extremely extremely poor and

01:12:55.740 yet i think that is yeah reflective of

01:12:57.920 their views and if there are any criminals

01:12:59.860 listening we would like to request that

01:13:02.320 you target more middle-class journalists

01:13:04.000 that that way they might get the message

01:13:07.420 yeah yeah and i'm not middle class don't

01:13:09.660 target me

01:13:10.300 uh well look i think i think it's really

01:13:16.040 valuable um because i think the thing that

01:13:19.300 you're highlighting is something that lots

01:13:21.820 and lots of people are just naturally aware

01:13:24.420 of i think people increasingly feel less safe

01:13:28.800 and that can that can manifest in different

01:13:31.340 ways but particularly in in the cities in

01:13:33.440 this country and i think it's really great

01:13:35.520 that you're you're pointing the spotlight on

01:13:37.640 that i hope you keep it up and i i hope the

01:13:40.360 politicians and people in the world of

01:13:41.920 politics who are listening uh start paying

01:13:44.120 attention to this stuff because if they

01:13:46.160 don't then those forces will manifest in one

01:13:48.600 way or another um and it just seems like uh an

01:13:52.440 open goal it really does so i'm glad you're

01:13:55.680 doing it and and thanks for bringing it to

01:13:57.900 people's attention thank you very much

01:13:59.280 you know we have to push it as hard as

01:14:01.480 possible because as you say like the the

01:14:03.820 default is they are not going to listen

01:14:05.160 the politicians are not going to listen

01:14:06.780 they're not going to do things even when

01:14:08.020 it's very blatantly obvious and that you

01:14:10.040 should just imprison the 10 percent of

01:14:11.880 people who are committing the majority of

01:14:13.980 all crimes uh this is a very clear very

01:14:16.700 obvious thing uh they don't do it by

01:14:19.040 default we have to make a lot of noise and

01:14:20.720 that's what cross crime is here to do well

01:14:23.400 really appreciate coming on uh before we

01:14:25.520 head to our sub stack and ask a bunch of

01:14:27.580 questions from our supporters uh what is the

01:14:29.960 one thing that we're not talking about that

01:14:31.380 we should be um i think one thing which

01:14:35.780 really is not given really much time at all

01:14:37.920 is actually the position of the young in this

01:14:40.680 country so um i don't uh so separately to

01:14:45.080 crush crime i also run looking for growth which

01:14:47.740 is a movement uh a political movement to uh

01:14:50.600 advocate for policies uh on economic growth to

01:14:54.600 actually rescue this country from decline which

01:14:56.860 is kind of the root cause of so many of our

01:14:58.720 problems um the engagement we get there is like

01:15:02.640 18 to 35 year olds who actually really really care

01:15:04.980 about politics they could not care less about what

01:15:07.540 party does it they literally could not care less um

01:15:10.800 we've had politicians from all kinds of different

01:15:12.720 backgrounds at our events to talk to our audience

01:15:14.680 what they want to hear is you have a plan the plan is

01:15:17.460 actually credible and we are on the way out of

01:15:19.580 this thing it's going to happen fast often means

01:15:22.160 radical action in various ways but it's cheap

01:15:24.340 cheaply that's going to happen fast younger people

01:15:27.540 here uh in britain and really come across the west

01:15:31.060 but a pretty bad deal over you know the last uh really

01:15:35.120 like 10 years and continue to do so and yet there's

01:15:37.600 very very little political attention very very little

01:15:39.740 national attention on things like they are far less

01:15:42.980 optimistic they are both about the personal lives and

01:15:46.240 the country their their politics is much more diverse

01:15:50.060 than it has been any other time there's much more

01:15:52.200 there's much higher support for reform amongst 18 to 25

01:15:56.000 year olds um then uh certainly for the conservatives and

01:15:59.860 otherwise um i think like second to labor amongst that

01:16:02.440 groups we're not talking about what it means for young

01:16:06.860 people in this country to one start to be actively involved

01:16:09.380 in politics and two how much of a raw deal they actually have

01:16:13.180 got here and flesh that out what's the raw deal

01:16:15.720 so they've um i mean if you imagine kind of coming of age

01:16:19.600 during a period in which you know covid they were literally

01:16:21.940 had to lock themselves inside for a long period of like

01:16:24.300 their their youth and you know we can agree disagree about

01:16:28.140 aspects of lockdown or wherever it might be but

01:16:29.980 just factually speaking they were actually locked away for

01:16:33.520 large periods of a very key social point of their life

01:16:36.060 sometimes interrupting their university you know big experiences big social

01:16:39.520 experiences um they come out to a job market

01:16:41.920 that is extremely uncertain uh to the point where you know even stuff that you

01:16:46.360 might have gotten great advice on you want to do a law degree you want to

01:16:49.620 do there aren't as many jobs in that because already artificial intelligence

01:16:52.860 is moving in a very clear direction

01:16:54.100 that's what advice you give to those people

01:16:57.140 that anyone now 18 about what was actually going to be a good career in five

01:17:01.840 ten years coding was the career everyone was going for that is not

01:17:04.800 not the thing you want to do now for longer term

01:17:06.880 stay away from podcasting

01:17:08.700 hey focus is you know you know we'll see we'll see um but like you know the the

01:17:14.900 at the same time you have triple lock pensions you have uh a vast amount of uh

01:17:22.020 movement into this country from people outside of this country um a lot of jobs

01:17:27.540 and other countries actually attracting our own youth outside um it's very uncertain what

01:17:34.040 salaries look like it's very uncertain what the state of the country is um as a result a lot

01:17:39.340 of them are feeling like we actually ran a poll very recently asking britain has had

01:17:44.240 0.1 growth over the last year do you think this is acceptable or not every age group

01:17:48.940 basically says unacceptable apart from 18 to 25 who says acceptable right because they're used

01:17:55.380 they're just used to decline wow they're used to it we even asked someone like so we have

01:18:01.180 chapters across the country for lfg we have chapters uh in multiple cities i went to one

01:18:06.600 um or or rather um some of our co-founders went to one uh my co-founders went to one where

01:18:11.700 someone said in attendance i'm 25 years old and all i've ever known is decline what can i do

01:18:18.260 that's the feeling and they're used to it they're used to the system and as a result optimistic people

01:18:25.040 are leaving and uh we really are facing again something which takes a long time to build great

01:18:31.800 institutions great universities great places for people to live and it's very very easy to start

01:18:36.180 losing that and if you start seeing all of your talent leave the country um because what has it

01:18:42.320 got to offer them that's a question we need to really start asking very very quickly before we

01:18:47.140 lose the next generation which have been through a lot have done a lot and actually you know we're

01:18:52.480 talking about uh you know political anger and angst they've taken it all very well and now they're

01:19:01.200 leaving with their feet and those who aren't are feeling depressed dejected and otherwise completely

01:19:06.280 ignored and i think that's something which we need to start talking about well one thing people

01:19:09.780 always say when uh the old people always say when young people complain about the state well well look

01:19:15.020 at them they're spending money on lattes and they've got these iphones and now their iphones are

01:19:19.320 getting nicked as well no listen man the thing is with all of these things the hope is that by

01:19:28.040 raising awareness of them they eventually become political issues that politicians grab onto and

01:19:32.780 eventually you have you see change through that system i think growth is obviously going to be a

01:19:37.020 huge part of solving many of these problems but i also think that you know picking up some of these

01:19:41.540 issues and running with them is is the right thing to do for smart politicians yeah because it's where

01:19:46.640 the country is at yes they're not artificial issues they are where the country is at uh so we will

01:19:52.440 see how evolves over time and we'll keep out an eye out for your good work uh head on over to

01:19:56.780 sub stack where we ask lawrence your questions how do we incentivize the policing of genuine crime

01:20:02.860 rather than low-hanging fruit like meme tweets in a climate where the police have been going through

01:20:07.520 a softer rebranding and the college of policing appears to be steering in this direction

01:20:11.860 you

01:20:17.660 you

01:20:21.660 you

01:20:25.660 you

01:20:27.660 you

01:20:29.660 you

01:20:31.660 you

TRIGGERnometry - July 09, 2025

I Proved The Police Don't Investigate Crime - Dr Lawrence Newport

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