＂I Transitioned My Child - I Regret It＂
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Summary
In this episode, Rose talks about her experience with gender ideology and how it shaped the way she raised her two sons, who are now adults and in the process of transitioning from male to female. She also shares her own personal story of how gender ideology shaped her parenting of her sons.
Transcript
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And so after a period of years, we came to this, neither of our sons is innately transgender.
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I want to say this clearly, at that, when we came to that decision, I still didn't see it as a belief system.
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I was still in it. I was still in it, but I had come painstakingly, both of us had, to the conclusion that our sons weren't actually trans,
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that it was something else for both of them, and we were clear in that.
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This belief system, the heart of it, says that children should lead.
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And it's contradictory, because once children say they are the opposite sex, then adults lead them to gender affirmation, okay?
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To cross-sex, concretizing that cross-sex identity and medicalizing it.
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But what I realized in those two-plus years of anguish was that I had led my child into it.
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And therefore, I must lead him out of it. It is my responsibility.
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And like a second later, I'm on my phone, I'm texting a friend, I'm like,
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we've realized that our older son is not actually transgender, and we're going to be rolling back the social transition.
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And I feel like I am leaving a cult, because that's what it felt like to me.
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So imagine had we not, you know, had we not realized our mistake, and you go 10, 20 years into the future.
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And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
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Well, I don't know how to convey to you how fascinating the guest we have for you today.
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She's a mother, which will become relevant very quickly.
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Now, I'll explain for our audience that we've had to anonymize your face and voice
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because of the nature of the conversation we're going to be having.
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Before we get into all of that, just tell everybody a little bit about who are you, what is your background?
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but just a big picture of what has been your journey through life that leads you to be talking to us.
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And I would say the big picture of my life is that, you know, I, like everybody else,
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just trying to figure out how to live a good life and my own path that kind of really led me into
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being very involved with social justice as a young person and then coming into motherhood
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and how those beliefs and those views kind of shaped some of the approaches that I took to raising my sons.
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And that's what I wrote my piece about in the context of this phenomenon that we call gender ideology.
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Yeah, well, you wrote a piece on Substack, which we'll put in the link for people to read.
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I remember reading it last year and it had a very profound impact on me, I must say,
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because this is kind of where ideology meets reality.
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In the words of our recent guest, Helen Joyce, who you also quote,
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and you are this progressive person who's involved in the movement, who's very active.
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You get together with your partner, you have a child, then you have another child.
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Well, you know, maybe backing up just a little bit.
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And, you know, what happens when I have a child is that I'm coming into it with a belief system.
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And that belief system is something that that your guests and that I would refer to as gender ideology.
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Um, where this belief system came from, I think when I think back to it is really, um, as a young
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person, you know, being very, uh, idealistic, uh, being involved with a lot of, uh, social justice
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activism, but also struggling to understand like how the world works and how I can make a positive
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And, um, along comes in my early twenties, uh, uh, answer a really simple, you know, Francis,
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You, you know, you talk about be cautious of simple solutions to complex problems.
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Because, um, I was offered a very simple thing and that was a formula for understanding,
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uh, the root of our problems and social ills that could really be boiled down to these
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systems of white supremacy, of capitalism, of patriarchy.
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That's what I was given, you know, since a couple of decades ago, there were other ones
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that were added sense, but that's where it was then.
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Um, and that, uh, simple formula for, for understanding them and analyzing our world could be broken
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down to these categories of oppressed and oppressor.
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Um, and what needed to happen to make the world a better place was to really uproot all
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of this so we could like, you all have spoken to, you know, create somewhat of a utopia.
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I didn't use that word, but you know, now I can see it as that was really what, what I was
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And, um, uh, I'm going to come back to this later in the story, but I think, um, that was
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really the formula and the belief system that for me led me to believe as a mother and as a parent
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that, um, my child or my children could have, um, an innate transgender identity.
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So when you have that formula of, you know, people of color, white people, um, men, women,
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you know, as the years went by and I was very involved in the social justice movement,
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you know, um, transgender, cisgender, you know, it, it slotted right into that formula.
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And so I don't, um, I know after I wrote the piece, a lot of people like, where did this
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And, and that I think played a significant role in where it came from, for me that I didn't
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It just kind of slotted right in to that bigger ideology.
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And, um, and so my partner and I from the best intentions imaginable thought, you know,
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if we're having children, we want to acknowledge and we want to be very proactive that they could
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possibly be born male, but have this gender identity that was different, that was a girl.
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And no matter what, we wanted to make sure that our parenting was, um, going to support
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So I think this is a key point that I want to speak to throughout the interview is that when
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you are in this belief system, you truly believe in this existence of an innate transgender
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And so, um, that's going to make the difference in these debates and these conversations around
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what you do with children who have gender dysphoria.
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Um, so for us, it was almost like if we can be gender neutral, if we can, um, be more open
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and flexible, um, we could maybe avoid a transgender child ever having gender dysphoria.
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It might sound kind of crazy, but, but that's kind of where we were coming from or, and I
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was coming from was really wanting to not do harm to my child is kind of the opposite of
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what many of us now see as something that does do harm.
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So the thing that I've always found very interesting about your story, Rose, I mean, the story is
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fascinating as a whole, but you say that 20 years ago, you were, you got into this ideology
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20 years ago, because to me, this is something fairly new.
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I first came across these ways of thinking in 2016.
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You know, I was in college, you know, I was idealistic.
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I was an activist and it was really, um, it was, uh, within that world that what you all
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would call woke ideology was starting to take root.
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So anti-globalization protests, Iraq war protests, all of those things, this, um, this whole, um,
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it was really through anti-racism and that framework, um, coming in what, what some people
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That sort of really came in and took hold, um, of progressive movements and, uh, organizations,
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And of course, now we see that, you know, across all of our institutions, but I, I was kind of,
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I would say at the fledgling, um, some fledgling beginnings of that.
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Um, and Rose, what was it about this way of looking at the world that particularly appealed
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You know, similar to what I already said, it, it made things quite simple.
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Um, and it also gave, uh, a solution, which was, you know, you see injustice, you know,
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Um, you know, I had been involved with some very large protests and mobilizations.
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And as a young person, you're like, we are going to change the world.
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And, but the next day you wake up and like, nothing has changed.
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So there's a sense of despair and confusion and you're looking for an answer.
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And so, um, so I think that this gave me that answer and kind of gave me a meaning and purpose
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Um, and when did the gender ideology part come into it?
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Because that to me is something very, very, very new.
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So, um, so I would say once I got into that, um, the, the anti-racism world and, you know,
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it was kind of like what I talk about when I think about it and me, it's like, almost
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And so a lot of my work was working with progressive organizations to bring, um, this
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framework in and help, um, orient them towards it.
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And so, um, in that work, you know, I started to meet people, meet people who either knew
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transgender people and, or who, um, you know, we were building in that inner intersectional
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We had to, you know, introduce people to the concept of pronouns.
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And this was really within that greater framework of, we're going to bring this collective sense
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of justice right to the world and all the, that formula, all of these identities need
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And so, um, so it was introduced to me through that for sure.
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Um, but also as a person who was coming out, um, you know, as same sex attracted as a, as
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a lesbian, my first girlfriend, um, was younger than me and, uh, and she, when I said, you
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know, I'm interested in dating women, she said, I'm well, I'm not a woman.
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So when you're like falling in love, um, and you want to, you get, you're going to get on
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board, um, and you're going to do what you need to do to support that person's, um, expression
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And so for me, the gender ideology, it came out of social justice, but it also, um, was
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really coming up within, um, let's say the female, uh, what would be called now the queer
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community, but, you know, um, within, um, within those networks as well, just socially
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And so coming back to the story of your family, Rose, um, the, I mean, the short and the short
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version, the cliff notes version is you had, uh, two kids, two boys, uh, the first one
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You might say he, he'd probably on the autistic spectrum, a bit different.
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And you raised him in this gender neutral way because you believe this is in his best
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And at some point he says he's a girl and you know, you have some reservations, but everyone
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around you is delighted for you of how brilliant you are.
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You're these brilliant, progressive parents, uh, everyone's supporting you with this.
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And then your second boy who is not gender non-conforming in any way, who's just a normal
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And at this point, the light bulb goes off, right?
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So things were going well, um, but we were never 100% like this was the right thing to
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And I think you try to be succinct writing a piece.
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I try to be succinct in this interview, but I want people to know at no juncture were
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Um, part of what the ideology did for me that I came out of was when you have questions and
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doubts, you tell yourself that that's transphobia.
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So there's a self-reinforcing kind of circle loop of keeping you in something even, and
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maybe especially when you're uncomfortable with it.
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And so, um, that was a piece of it for me throughout, but, um, you know, what we had
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We didn't know we, and we still have not, I just want to be very clear.
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Cause I did get some comments on this from the written piece.
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We've not pursued a diagnosis, but what we saw was difference.
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And the lens that we saw that difference through was informed by gender ideology.
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And so when some of those differences, we couldn't put our finger on them, but at the
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same time, he was kind of more had this affinity to, um, females and female things.
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And so because of the lens, we saw that difference through, that's what led us to question whether
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So yes, we went with the program when he finally said, you know, I'm a girl.
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Yes, you can be a girl, but we were never totally comfortable with it.
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Um, well, I just want to say my partner would come to me and say things like, what the fuck
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is gender, like literally, um, because she had, you know, she's a masculine female and
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she had experienced, you know, different desires to be a boy in her childhood, but she never
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Um, and then I was at the same time, really learning more about, um, attachment and childhood
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development, and that was starting to give me some of the answers as to why my older son
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And I, it was also starting to raise questions of, is this actually potentially doing some,
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Um, because I could see some of these things more clearly, uh, this identification.
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And so that's when our younger son, you know, at three years of age starts saying,
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I'm a girl and, you know, when you're, when you're an affirming parent, cause that's what
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I would say we were in, that's why some of our, this story is so unique is that we were
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what you would call affirming parents, what parents are being told to do in this gender
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You know, um, we had started to go to these support groups, um, for, uh, you know, parents
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And, you know, we were in other kind of networks where our kids are being asked their pronouns.
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And so our younger son starts to say, she, her, and we're just like, hold on a second.
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Um, so a few different things happened, um, you know, at that juncture, first and foremost,
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So those questions that we had already had, we started to listen to them much more.
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And, um, for my partner, you know, I was still like, but no, we know our older son is because
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of all of these things that she was like, no, you know, we know our younger son isn't our
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And I think that's one of the most shocking parts of the story.
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When I look back is the fact that we walked into that therapy appointment said our, you
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know, our, our four, I think I can't remember if he was three or four by the time we went to
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Um, and you know, we said, we started saying he's a girl too, but we think it's because
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And, um, and she said, well, she, you know, immediately she switched to saying she for our
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younger son, just within sec, literally seconds, you know, you hear these stories of my child
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Assessment doesn't exist when you believe that someone is innately trans.
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So when you're three, assessment is transphobia.
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So, because you're doubting that person and you're saying there's something wrong with
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And so, so bam, she, her, you need to change, you know, you need to change her pronouns at
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And, uh, miraculously enough, when we, we, we doubted this, we questioned it.
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Um, when I did that and I tried to connect with my younger son that night, oh, you know,
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And so it was just one of those, um, things that another thing where I was like, this isn't
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And so we did a very deep dive, you know, in, um, deeper into these questions of attachment
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and where we actually saw those differences then from my, my older son as, as both being,
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um, you know, what might've given him that affinity.
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So when you talk about kids who are on the spectrum, for example, um, you know, they,
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uh, have difficulties with personal attachment.
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And so, whereas my younger son wanted to be the same as his older brother by saying he was
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a girl, what we came to see from my older son in part was that he had that same drive for
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sameness, but it was towards things because it was too vulnerable for him to attach to
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And so that feminine, you know, I like the barrettes or I like the flowers, you know, that we saw
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through that lens of he could, that could mean he's trans.
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Um, was that a function of that, uh, psychologically?
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And, um, and we also saw that those special interests changed over time.
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So we started to see like, this is actually not about this gender essence.
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It's really about him, um, and a deeper emotional process.
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And so after a period of years, we came to this, neither of our sons is innately transgender.
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I want to say this clearly at that, when we came to that decision, I still didn't see it
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I was still in it, but I had come painstakingly.
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Both of us had to the conclusion that, um, that our sons weren't actually trans, that it
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And we were clear in that one last thing of, this is really important that I want to say
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is that this belief system, the heart of it says that children should lead.
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This is so critical and it's contradictory because once children say they are the opposite
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sex, then adults lead them to gender affirmation.
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To cross-sex, concretizing that cross-sex identity and medicalizing it.
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But the, if you're going to call it a religion, if you're going to call it a belief system,
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whatever you call it, the sacred core is children must lead.
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But what I realized in those two plus years of anguish was that I had led my child into
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I saw it as a highway where drive, I drove him on the on-ramp.
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And what you have to understand is that in that process for us to actually say that to
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some people who are in this belief system, that is so deeply wrong.
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It is absolutely counter to the core of, of what, um, what people are relying on, uh, that
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your children is the one who must lead you, um, even though they're then going to be led.
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We came to the decision that, um, that this was in his best interest, that this was in
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Um, and so just to tell that story a little bit, um, you know, we were trying to figure
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out like, how do we, um, how do we get them out?
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And so one of his special interests at that time was chickens.
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And, um, this is funny in the sense that we go back to the Matt Walsh film, you know, that
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Uh, so chickens played a role here too, but, um, but you know, what we decided to say to
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him in a way he could understand emotionally was, um, you're a rooster, you know, honey,
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And so I came up with some bullet points, you know, for this conversation, I sat him
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down and, um, I said, you know, I, you know, I'm so sorry that I told you something different.
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Uh, now I know more, I was wrong and you are a rooster.
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I know that means that males cannot be female.
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It also means that a male can't be a girl because he always knew he was male, but we had
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this, I like, like kids are going to understand the difference between gender and
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sex, but anyways, you, you cannot be female.
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And, um, I know you, it feels like you can't live without it because once it was in, it
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And this is part of that psychology that we don't get to when the ideology is keeping
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I know that you can't live, you feel like you can't live without it, but you can.
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And you're actually going to be much happier because I did truly, at that point, I saw the
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ways that it was impacting him psychologically that were not in his best interest.
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And, um, he said to me, mama, this is your fault.
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Um, so imagine had we not, you know, had we not realized our mistake and you go 10, 20
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years into the future, imagine that mama, this was your fault then.
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And this is another part of the story that just, you know, I want to share.
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I was trying to get to the sad because that was going to tell me that he had understood
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Gordon Neufeld, who I just want to plug here, the book, his book, hold onto your kids, this
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concept of futility, which is an essential part of us adapting to life, maturing in life.
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It's when we come against something we cannot change.
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And our, our heart is soft enough to feel that vulnerability and cry about it.
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And so I knew my son had to some point get to those tears, um, where he was accepting
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And, um, so, but the mad came first and we, I decided we're going to go on a bike ride.
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You know, we're going to go, I'm going to let him lead.
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And, um, as we're walking out the door, getting on the bikes, he turns around to me and
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he had this a lot with a lot of these highly sensitive kids and autistic, you know, spectrum
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It's like, there's this maturate, you know, they're less mature in some way.
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He, you know, had this farm he was going to create in his future, uh, called wildwood
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And, um, he turns to me and he just gives me these dagger eyes and he says, mama, you are
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And it just hit me again, this incredible validation.
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For this decision that we were making to lead him off that highway.
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Um, he has no ability to understand the consequences of changing his sex.
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Um, so in the days after that, you know, he did get to those tears.
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And what I write about in the piece and what I want to share with you is that I imagined
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that he would be mad at me for a very long time.
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I was not expecting that the very next day, what I would experience in my son was a great
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And literally when we talk about being in the lead and how this put him into the lead,
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They might, they might express it through being bossy or being, you know, in all these
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ways we might interpret as willfulness or confidence or tightly holding onto something,
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but ultimately they need to rest knowing that we've got them, you know, that we're taking
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And so when I, when I took that back, he was able to set this adult burden down and he literally
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And, and even his whole, you know, just, you could just feel palpably that he was laying
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The thing, the thing that I've noticed, Rose, with, you know, when people talk about this
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and obviously, you know, I was a teacher and I, I was very lucky in my teaching career.
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I taught everything from the age of four, kindergarten, right the way through to 18.
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And if you were told our grandparents' generation or our mother's generation, what we were doing,
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they would be saying, well, but that's against everything that we know to be true.
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That is against every type of instinct a mother has.
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How have we reached this point where we're so willing to subvert our instincts for an ideology?
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I wish I had the answer, but I, I do think that that it's a subversion of instincts, but
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Like I, I keep on coming back to that because parents who are in this are absolutely believing
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So all of those instincts to protect at all costs are there, but it's based on something
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No, that's, I mean, and so I don't know how to answer that question because I think that
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is the power of having this locked in belief system.
00:28:27.060
Yeah, it's a power of ideology and this is, I mean, one of the things I wanted to say is
00:28:32.680
the internet is a mean place and people will, you know, have their own views about your
00:28:41.140
But I think it's really important that you, you wrote the piece that you wrote and that
00:28:45.220
you are here speaking with us now, because I think it's important that, as you say, people
0.99
00:28:49.580
recognize that, you know, it's easy to think, or, you know, a bunch of stupid evil people
0.98
00:28:55.300
over there are doing this thing, whereas actually, you know, you're clearly very intelligent.
0.99
00:29:00.200
You're clearly extremely well-intentioned for your kids.
00:29:03.400
But this is why Francis and I have spent so much time talking about this issue, because
00:29:11.240
And if you find people who are looking for meaning and purpose and want to feel good about
00:29:17.880
themselves and want to, quote unquote, change the world, then you give them a system of
00:29:21.720
beliefs that preys on those desires and offers them these oversimplified solutions, you can
00:29:29.160
get a lot of harm done without anybody ever wanting to do anything bad.
00:29:35.480
And so let me, yeah, let me speak to that a little bit.
00:29:39.620
And maybe, I don't know if this will get to your question, Francis, or not, but I'm going
00:29:45.480
to go back again, putting the child in the lead.
00:29:50.620
So I want to explain how that then plays out for parents.
00:29:56.560
When you put your child in the lead, I, you know, you say you're, you, I know you're born
00:30:02.140
a male, but you say you're a girl, then you're a girl, you know, or asking a lot of parents
00:30:07.240
in this, in this belief system, young parents, you know, progressive, like they're asking their
00:30:14.080
So they're kind of, um, subverting that natural hierarchical relationship and putting kids
00:30:22.660
Um, so you have that going on, but then when, and that's really impacts the entire relationship
00:30:32.240
Um, then you have, um, an ideology that says if your child then expresses that they're the
00:30:41.760
opposite sex, um, they are transgender and they, that's now say that's a sacred category.
00:30:53.840
And it's one, when you plug it into the formula, oppressor, oppressed, oppressed, privileged.
00:31:00.480
If you're a cisgender or you don't identify as trans, you can't know your child.
00:31:07.480
I mean, that's what this belief system does to parents.
00:31:10.420
You no longer know this core part of your child because you are privileged.
00:31:17.520
So you have the severing of the, you know, you have this inverting of the, the relationship
00:31:24.660
And then you have the severing of that intuitive knowledge, that instinct, because you now can't
00:31:37.940
Um, who can you go to then to be the arbiter of your relationship?
00:31:48.220
You have to trust experts and you have to, um, ask other trans adults.
0.76
00:32:00.940
So, so, so I wanted to share that piece, you know, it, and then you, if you're in that belief
00:32:06.540
system, you then are saying, if I am uncomfortable, I have to stuff it down.
00:32:12.840
They actually have like some of that, that doctor in the Matt Welsh film.
00:32:17.280
When I was in the midst of my anguish and trying to reach out, like, where can I find
00:32:22.940
And the only things I would find were the people who don't want to transition their kids
00:32:29.300
And if you're good, you are going to do the gender affirming route.
00:32:33.600
So I actually found a slideshow where that same doctor, um, uh, said, this is said all
00:32:44.540
You have to grieve the son and you have to accept the daughter.
00:32:47.100
And, and so when parents have these emotions come up, there's a bit, there's already the
00:32:52.020
talking points from both experts and peers to say, of course, you're going to have a hard
00:32:58.820
Of course, you're going to have a hard time with this, but this is what's best for your
00:33:04.040
And Rose, that is a really shocking thing for me.
00:33:07.260
It's the experts, the people who have been trained, the people who are experts, the people
00:33:13.980
who should know how to support children and diagnose them and put in structures and treatments
00:33:22.040
in place to help children who have, who are having some kind of mental suffering, whatever
00:33:27.940
They just seem to have abandoned their responsibility in science in favor of an ideology.
00:33:33.280
Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, to speak at least to like the gender therapist that we
00:33:39.160
saw, I mean, my perspective is that she was in therapy because she was an activist.
00:33:45.020
You know, I think a lot of, of people at this point are, um, entering these professions as
00:33:54.340
Uh, and this is one of the things that I found incredibly worrying about what you wrote, because
00:34:02.980
based on what you're saying, it's like the moment, uh, you, you know, your child says,
00:34:09.360
you know, you know, I'm the opposite to, to, to the sex that I was born and you go to all
0.99
00:34:24.720
Now keep it, you know, it wasn't everyone in our community, but, um, but certainly most,
00:34:30.820
you know, the, the general tone was, you know, you're doing the right thing.
00:34:35.100
We went to a couple, you know, a few different support groups and, and one of them, we were
00:34:39.000
just like told our story, we're like, did we do the right thing?
00:34:46.200
Your child just told you one day and you changed his entire life.
00:34:57.640
And, and did, what, did it have initially positive things at the start?
00:35:02.500
Did you initially start to see with the older child initially that he actually had some more
00:35:13.040
Did that sort of assuage your fears at that point?
00:35:18.640
but he, but he had some, he had some challenges.
00:35:23.000
He was different in these ways, but, but he certainly was happy, um, with this idea of
00:35:33.540
Um, so, so yeah, so there were some things that were like, that said, yes, this, this, this
00:35:41.200
Um, but a lot of them went along with what people would speak to as sex-based stereotypes,
00:35:46.920
wearing a dress, growing his hair long, um, you know, being into Elsa, you know, um, so
00:35:53.820
things that boys can absolutely do while being boys.
00:35:59.280
So, so yeah, there was definitely enough there.
00:36:04.140
And, and what we did see is that it did lock in, right?
00:36:07.500
So when we started to question and, and, and kind of bring it up to him, he didn't want
00:36:15.540
So, you know, part of what, like for people listening, you know, gender wider lens is an
00:36:21.500
And, uh, I want to speak to my story of how I found that a little bit as well.
00:36:26.120
Um, but what I will say is that what I read when I first found that podcast was that they
00:36:35.620
And I would say that's similar to what I found over time with, oh, my son actually had these
00:36:40.880
different special interests and that they changed, um, that it wasn't about gender at its core.
00:36:46.880
Um, that the locking in of his holding onto this identity was some sort of defense.
00:36:55.800
He, I think he needed it to exist as a boy without a skin, like a highly sensitive boy
00:37:03.380
in this world whose parents hadn't told him that he was a boy.
00:37:08.100
He, but he needed to know what he was, you know?
00:37:10.860
And so when he locked in, there were some defenses around that.
00:37:14.160
And that took us time to, you know, to understand that again, it wasn't, uh, about being innately
00:37:22.800
And he had that defensive reaction to other things in his life as well.
00:37:27.080
So that was part of us really putting the, you know, whether you call it like unraveling
00:37:31.180
it or, or putting the pieces together, it helped our insight to really see, um, what was
00:37:38.220
And that's what the ideology stops you from doing.
00:37:49.680
Like, I think an interesting part of my story is like how I'm here today talking to you about
00:37:54.400
Um, because when I, uh, when I made that decision, when my partner and I said, we're going to hold
00:38:00.900
our son in this futility that he can't be a girl.
00:38:03.460
You know, we came to that from, um, from the process that I'm describing to you, you
00:38:10.040
know, really looking at these different layers of attachment development, maturation, what
00:38:14.860
pieces of it were about being highly sensitive, how we had led him on was a core of that for
00:38:20.780
Like I've spoken to and taking responsibility for that.
00:38:24.440
Um, we came to that decision without, for me, without seeing outside the belief system.
00:38:30.380
I still believe that kids could be innately trans.
00:38:34.020
And, um, it was just that my kids weren't, um, we made the decision to have that conversation
00:38:42.920
And literally that night after the kids went to bed, I was up and I did another internet
00:38:48.500
And for years I had done internet searches and I had not found anything that, you know,
00:38:53.780
that, that was coming from like a liberal or progressive kind of aspect, which at that
00:39:00.840
I don't need that anymore, but at that time I didn't need that.
00:39:03.920
Um, and somehow I found this blog fourth wave now, which is out of the United States.
00:39:09.080
And on that blog, they were saying, you know, we support lesbian and gay people, but we do
00:39:14.480
not support the medicalization of children, um, around gender identity.
00:39:18.960
And they were also questioning social transition.
00:39:21.680
So it was literally that night that I was like, and then they said, we're progressive, you know?
00:39:28.520
Um, and I just, up until that point, I didn't even know people like this existed, you know?
00:39:34.600
And I needed that to bring me to a point of being like, it's okay for me to question this
00:39:41.820
And, um, and that led me to finding the gender a wider lens podcast.
00:39:45.120
And I listened to the first episode, which was really about really outlining this whole
00:39:51.260
thing as, you know, there's generally two camps.
00:39:53.900
There's people who believe in this thing called gender identity.
00:39:57.040
And they broke down what goes into that belief and how that looks.
00:40:00.120
And they said, then there's people who believe that gender dysphoria exists and, and what goes
00:40:07.320
And it, for whatever reason, it was like, for the first time, I, it helped me see outside
00:40:19.340
And you hear detransitioners speaking to these moments too, where they, they're in it.
00:40:24.580
They can't see outside of it till something happens that like breaks through.
00:40:28.200
And, um, for whatever reason that did this for me.
00:40:31.560
And so the next morning I was just sitting in the kitchen.
00:40:35.140
I can visualize the wall of my kitchen, um, where I was standing and I'm thinking about
00:40:39.980
this belief and literally I feel this is going to sound nuts, but I feel like a pin comes
00:40:46.560
out of my head and the whole thing just crashes.
00:40:50.040
And like a second later, I'm on my phone, I'm texting a friend.
00:40:53.600
I'm like, you know, this big thing is happening.
00:40:56.080
Um, we've realized that our older son is not actually transgender and we're going to be
00:41:03.200
And I feel like I am leaving a cult because that's what it felt like to me.
00:41:07.140
It's just, you know, we don't have to say whether it is or isn't like, that's just what
00:41:10.760
I experienced with that and realizing that I had had a belief system.
00:41:16.500
I didn't know I had a belief system till that moment.
00:41:19.080
And, um, and then a second later I hit send and then I'm free freeze.
00:41:25.720
And I think, what if she's like, she's in the cult, like she's still in that belief.
00:41:32.280
And here I have just shared this thing and what, you know, what is her response going
00:41:37.880
And so, um, and, and ultimately she believed us and trust us and supported us.
00:41:44.260
But, um, but there was this moment for me and, and this is going to be different for
00:41:48.980
everybody, but for me, um, you know, it's like, that was the feeling that I had.
00:41:57.040
What was the reaction from other people when you, you made this decision?
00:42:02.120
And, uh, I can't imagine the gender therapist was happy.
00:42:15.760
And when I came back from the first one, having had that experience with my younger son and,
00:42:20.720
and we had found some other support that was coming more from this, you know, the attachment
00:42:25.520
based perspective, we had reached out to some other people who were more working with parents
00:42:31.360
And, and, um, you know, I had kind of, you know, I, she threatened me in the second one.
00:42:40.060
So, um, when I was like, no, he said he didn't want to, you know, no, I'm not going to do this.
00:42:47.460
She was like, well, if you don't, he's going to develop an attachment disorder.
00:42:52.380
And, and I was like, um, you don't know anything about attachment.
00:43:01.200
And if my son is going to have these issues, I know how to see them.
0.98
00:43:05.320
You know, there was just, it was just such utter bullshit at that point that I, that I,
0.96
00:43:12.940
And so I would say that for parents who are very enmeshed with the experts and in peer
00:43:24.220
We, I had the strength and we had the confidence in us that we hadn't, we had left the experts
00:43:30.020
long before and we had never gone full in with them.
00:43:34.040
And so, um, that helped a lot, but I would say, you know, what we had in terms of like
00:43:39.080
taking that off ramp, what I, what I told some people in my life, like my, some of my brothers,
00:43:50.820
And, um, and, uh, we had some conversations with different individuals in our lives that,
00:43:57.840
And we had to really pick and choose who we could trust with the full information of how
00:44:05.360
we came to this decision and what we did with it and who we had to really, um, give just
00:44:11.340
And, um, and we had to kind of navigate through that.
00:44:14.400
And we did have one person in our life, um, a couple of different people who were like,
00:44:19.660
you know, trying to get us to go to counselors.
00:44:21.320
Um, we had, uh, uh, we're like, no, we're clear, we're good, you know, um, and we did
00:44:28.680
have, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, kind of a teacher of our children's past who we had
00:44:35.720
shared some of this with and who really, you know, was, is deeply in that belief system
00:44:40.080
enough that she, you know, was like, I, I can't believe you're not letting your kids
00:44:44.440
choose their pronouns, you know, um, really unsettled by that aspect of it.
00:44:54.420
And, and I think that anchoring for me, and I led my child into this, it was my responsibility
00:45:02.020
to take him off was just what held me solid through, through all of that.
00:45:07.320
And that's what those instincts that I had shut down and those feelings and those emotions,
00:45:12.820
because what I, I had experiencing that thing I taught you about that severing of that relationship,
00:45:18.100
that inversion, I felt that just, um, physically, I felt that emotionally.
00:45:24.380
And so when it came back in to, to place for me, that's when I realized how much it had been
00:45:31.360
And so nothing was going to stop me from defending it at that point.
00:45:36.600
And Rose, what are your, how are your sons now?
00:45:45.820
It, you know, it's, there was a time period where it was much harder.
00:45:48.860
I will say for my younger son, as soon as his older brother was his older brother, he
00:46:03.980
Um, we did never social transitioned our younger son, like I spoke to, but he showed so much
00:46:12.220
You know, it was so ironic that our older son had no distress.
00:46:16.520
Our younger son had a ton of distress and we had to, at that point, hold our ground and
00:46:21.180
not do it because we understood what was underneath.
00:46:23.780
And, um, but there were some, I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:46:29.960
Um, well, I, this drive to be the same as his older sibling.
00:46:36.860
Conflicting with the fact that he also knew that he was a boy.
00:46:40.320
No, the fact that we wouldn't let him use she, her pronouns.
00:46:44.640
So even after that moment in the, in, you know, in the, you know, Hey, you're my girl
00:46:54.440
He continued to want to be she, her in all ways.
0.97
00:46:58.540
Keep in mind, this was always, and practically only in the context of when they would go
00:47:04.520
out and his older brother, was she, her in like a camp setting or a, you know, the after
00:47:12.880
Um, that's when it was most distressing to him.
00:47:15.400
He was away from us and he needed to be close to his brother and he needed that closeness through
00:47:24.260
Um, and, um, so just as an example of that, um, they went to camp, he was four, his older
00:47:30.660
brother was six and, um, his older brother was with the girls.
00:47:40.520
And he, and I kept on going back to, you know, we're not changing this.
00:47:44.780
You know, he looked at me, he's four years old and he said, mama, when I hear he, it means
1.00
00:48:00.520
And this is another thing we could do a whole nother, like five podcasts on what we are doing
1.00
00:48:06.100
Rose, there are a lot of people, unfortunately, who are in a very similar situation to you
00:48:16.740
They might well be listening to this and I hope they are watching it.
00:48:20.320
What advice would you give to those parents who are going through a similar situation to
00:48:27.960
Um, the biggest piece of advice that I would give is that it is not transphobic to question.
00:48:36.100
It is not, uh, transphobic to question whether or not essentially telling your child that
00:48:46.120
they can change sex is in their best interest.
0.84
00:48:50.060
Um, it's not transphobic to, uh, not feel good about this, what, you know, what you're
00:48:58.240
doing or what you're being told to do to feel uncomfortable with it.
00:49:02.000
And it's a place where I just really encourage people.
00:49:05.120
If you have doubts to listen to them and what was important to me to hold my ground through
00:49:13.120
this whole thing and what we had to navigate with other people who wanted us to keep our
00:49:17.780
child in that sacred status, people, some people did not want to hear that it wasn't
00:49:22.600
working, um, and that we're, that it was going to change.
00:49:25.960
Um, you have to picture your child at 20 years old, 30 years old, 40 year old, 50 year old.
00:49:39.260
And those experts, those friends, those neighbors, whoever they are, who are like, you know, telling
00:49:45.840
you what to do are not going to be there for your child.
00:49:53.000
Um, and I think some people have, I've talked about this, seen it as a highway.
00:49:59.860
You know, if you are affirming your child currently, you have put your child on that train.
00:50:04.500
Your child is on a train and it has one destination.
00:50:11.420
And, um, what you, you know, I just say, I did it.
00:50:17.440
You need to have the courage to grab your child's hand and jump off.
00:50:25.080
There may be tears at the impact, but just be patient, stay calm.
00:50:34.500
And Rose, what are your thoughts on, as a consequence of your experiences on the idea
00:50:41.800
Like the, obviously I think you've probably shifted somewhat in your opinions, but, um,
00:50:47.860
how, you know, how far did you go the other way?
00:50:54.280
Do you think some people are like, what is your, what are your overall thoughts on that
00:51:00.120
I would say, you know, I, um, it's an ongoing process of, um, I'm going to be a
00:51:05.780
I, I, I absolutely, I have people who are identified as trans in my life, you know,
00:51:13.720
And, um, I think, I think just like I'm speaking to, uh, for my own process that, that, that there's
00:51:22.180
going to be a complex set of factors that go into that identification for adults.
00:51:28.360
Um, I, I, I no longer believe that, that this is something that is innate, that is born in
00:51:35.540
Um, and so that whole piece, you know, was important for me to come to, but I do believe
00:51:42.200
that, that for many people, this identification feels like an, a core part of themselves.
00:51:48.560
And, um, I, I do think that a lot of that is likely coming from this belief system, you
00:51:57.780
know, and it's not that, um, I, I, you know, that there, you know, there are adults in my
00:52:03.360
life who feel good with having taken on, gone the medical route or who feel good about being
00:52:13.360
Um, but I, what I no longer believe is that this is something that should be evangelized
00:52:19.520
and, and, and institutional and pushed on children, uh, this concept of gender identity.
00:52:24.980
I, I no longer believe in that, um, as something, and I do find it to be quite dangerous and, and,
00:52:34.760
And does it, does it worry you that particularly in the States, this is being used more and more
00:52:45.740
Um, yeah, I have two, you know, another story here, you know, my, I, my younger son is in
00:52:50.980
second grade and in their small school, um, they have two non-binary staff assistants and
00:52:57.800
one of them is in my, my son's second grade class.
00:53:00.220
And, um, and his teacher, again, best intention, she wants to make sure that this adult is included,
00:53:10.580
And, um, with, because of that, she started off the school year saying, if you change your name,
00:53:16.440
the rule for this class is that you have to respect the new name.
00:53:20.700
And so some kids, the first day change their names, it wasn't a long gender.
00:53:25.300
It was just kind of random, but, um, but there is this, yes, I am, I'll say I'm deeply concerned,
00:53:32.600
um, that the children are being told that it's a matter of respect, uh, to do these things.
00:53:40.280
I think the, the core point as well, out of everything you've said today is the fundamental
00:53:47.360
idea that children should lead is the most insane thing that anyone has ever come up with
00:53:55.800
I mean, they literally, I, I, you know, uh, I had, uh, my son is eight months old and, you
00:54:06.440
He's not going to know what gender or sex is or what identity is at three years old.
00:54:13.940
It's just, it's, it's, I've got no idea about his lived experience.
00:54:17.560
Well, I don't, but we'll find out what his lived experience is mainly pooing in his pants
00:54:25.980
My point is, you know, the very notion that children should lead, uh, is insane.
00:54:34.980
And how we've got to this place that so many people believe it, uh, it is terrifying, which
00:54:43.740
I'm so grateful you wrote the piece that you wrote and you came on the show to talk about
00:54:47.160
it because I say again, I think your voice is very necessary.
00:54:53.020
Um, people need to understand that there are consequences to ideology and their consequences
00:54:57.940
to idealism of the type that you thank God your, your kids in the long run avoided.
00:55:02.800
I'm so pleased to hear that they're, they're doing well now.
00:55:06.000
And can I circle back just really quickly to the question you asked me, Francis, around
00:55:13.840
I want to just say my, my core belief at this point, when you say how I've changed, it just
00:55:19.000
really rests on the fact that it is impossible to change sex.
00:55:21.960
That if, if I could just sum up, you know, what do I believe about this now?
00:55:30.760
Based on that, should, why are we telling children that they can?
00:55:40.480
We're going to do a couple of questions from our local supporters that only they will get
00:55:44.580
But before we wrap up, as always, we have one final question for you, which is what's the
00:55:49.220
one thing we're not talking about as a society that you think we really should be?
00:55:53.580
Uh, this is, I was thinking about this ahead of time.
00:55:58.040
Um, but what I really came to, I guess, um, you know, and maybe this is more for like,
00:56:06.560
let just put it out there to the parents, put it out there to the parents.
00:56:09.340
So, um, there is so much when you are aware of these issues like gender ideology in the
00:56:15.580
schools, capture of institutions, all of these things, you know, they, and, and maybe parents
00:56:28.940
Um, and I think what I keep, I worry for my son's future, you know, and I worry for their
00:56:35.520
And what I keep on coming back to is the, this core concept of attachment.
00:56:40.520
And so number one, we should be talking more about attachment.
00:56:43.340
People should all go out and read, hold on to your kids, Dr. Gordon Neufeld's book.
00:56:47.640
Um, but what, what, what we really need to come back to is understanding that the power
00:56:53.060
that we have, we can't maybe change the whole dynamic at the big picture.
00:56:59.320
Um, but as parents, what we do have the power over is how we can show love and delight and
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And that, that cultivation of that relationship, um, is what is going to be their greatest shield
00:57:13.860
in navigating society and these different perils that they're going to have to go through.
00:57:19.920
Um, so the question that I have that I want to put out there to everybody is when is the
00:57:24.300
last time that your child entered the room and you showed delight at their presence?
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It's a really, really powerful note to end on and something for all of us to think about.
00:57:39.080
If people want to find you on Substack, where, what is the best way to do that?
00:57:43.920
Um, so, uh, you can go to the Parents with Inconvenient Truths around Trans, Substack.
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00:57:51.800
I don't yet, but, um, also please support and find out more about, uh, Genspect.
00:57:57.460
Genspect is an amazing organization, um, that supports the PIT, uh, the Parents with Inconvenient
0.95
00:58:02.840
Truths around Trans, Substack and efforts.
1.00
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Um, they're doing work at the international level to just really ground us, um, in reality
00:58:15.660
Uh, Rose, thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:58:17.980
We'll go to our locals in a second, but for now, thank you for being here.
00:58:23.380
We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or our show.
00:58:29.840
And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast.
00:58:38.400
Is there anything that a healthcare professional could have said to you that would have stopped
00:58:50.860
Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.
00:59:07.000
The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs
00:59:11.780
you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.
00:59:15.940
Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.
00:59:23.400
April 28th through June 7th, 2026, the Princess of Wales Theatre.
00:59:42.580
The North is a huge 신기傍an on a booze honor for me to take in.
00:59:49.980
The West is a huge copper trophy in будущ.
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00:59:54.420
The talk has been really Или through the North.