TRIGGERnometry - ＂I Transitioned My Child

00:00:00.160 And so after a period of years, we came to this, neither of our sons is innately transgender.

00:00:07.800 I want to say this clearly, at that, when we came to that decision, I still didn't see it as a belief system.

00:00:13.060 I was still in it. I was still in it, but I had come painstakingly, both of us had, to the conclusion that our sons weren't actually trans,

00:00:24.220 that it was something else for both of them, and we were clear in that.

00:00:27.040 This belief system, the heart of it, says that children should lead.

00:00:34.160 And it's contradictory, because once children say they are the opposite sex, then adults lead them to gender affirmation, okay?

00:00:44.640 To cross-sex, concretizing that cross-sex identity and medicalizing it.

00:00:50.020 But what I realized in those two-plus years of anguish was that I had led my child into it.

00:00:59.080 And therefore, I must lead him out of it. It is my responsibility.

00:01:03.320 And like a second later, I'm on my phone, I'm texting a friend, I'm like,

00:01:07.520 we've realized that our older son is not actually transgender, and we're going to be rolling back the social transition.

00:01:12.560 And I feel like I am leaving a cult, because that's what it felt like to me.

00:01:18.120 He said to me, Mama, this is your fault.

00:01:22.660 You changed my name.

00:01:25.520 So imagine had we not, you know, had we not realized our mistake, and you go 10, 20 years into the future.

00:01:33.460 Imagine that, Mama, this was your fault then.

00:01:47.220 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:50.700 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:52.060 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:53.400 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:59.040 Well, I don't know how to convey to you how fascinating the guest we have for you today.

00:02:03.240 She's a mother, which will become relevant very quickly.

00:02:05.640 Rose, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:07.600 Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:09.200 Now, I'll explain for our audience that we've had to anonymize your face and voice

00:02:13.140 because of the nature of the conversation we're going to be having.

00:02:16.480 Before we get into all of that, just tell everybody a little bit about who are you, what is your background?

00:02:22.100 You don't have to give specifics, obviously,

00:02:23.620 but just a big picture of what has been your journey through life that leads you to be talking to us.

00:02:30.000 Yeah, so like you said, my name is Rose.

00:02:31.920 I live in the United States.

00:02:33.700 And I would say the big picture of my life is that, you know, I, like everybody else,

00:02:39.860 just trying to figure out how to live a good life and my own path that kind of really led me into

00:02:45.940 being very involved with social justice as a young person and then coming into motherhood

00:02:51.320 and how those beliefs and those views kind of shaped some of the approaches that I took to raising my sons.

00:02:59.400 And that's what I wrote my piece about in the context of this phenomenon that we call gender ideology.

00:03:06.100 And that's what I'm here to talk about today.

00:03:08.060 Yeah, well, you wrote a piece on Substack, which we'll put in the link for people to read.

00:03:14.100 I remember reading it last year and it had a very profound impact on me, I must say,

00:03:20.060 because this is kind of where ideology meets reality.

00:03:24.400 In the words of our recent guest, Helen Joyce, who you also quote,

00:03:27.500 and you are this progressive person who's involved in the movement, who's very active.

00:03:34.580 You get together with your partner, you have a child, then you have another child.

00:03:38.340 And then what happens?

00:03:41.380 Well, you know, maybe backing up just a little bit.

00:03:46.820 You know, I'm a progressive person.

00:03:49.420 And, you know, what happens when I have a child is that I'm coming into it with a belief system.

00:03:56.700 Right.

00:03:57.580 And that belief system is something that that your guests and that I would refer to as gender ideology.

00:04:04.320 Um, where this belief system came from, I think when I think back to it is really, um, as a young

00:04:10.660 person, you know, being very, uh, idealistic, uh, being involved with a lot of, uh, social justice

00:04:15.720 activism, but also struggling to understand like how the world works and how I can make a positive

00:04:22.740 impact in it.

00:04:24.180 And, um, along comes in my early twenties, uh, uh, answer a really simple, you know, Francis,

00:04:30.700 I watched your Joe Rogan interview.

00:04:32.920 You, you know, you talk about be cautious of simple solutions to complex problems.

00:04:37.860 Well, wow.

00:04:38.780 Does that resonate with me?

00:04:40.160 Because, um, I was offered a very simple thing and that was a formula for understanding,

00:04:47.220 uh, the root of our problems and social ills that could really be boiled down to these

00:04:53.580 systems of white supremacy, of capitalism, of patriarchy.

00:04:57.300 That's what I was given, you know, since a couple of decades ago, there were other ones

00:05:00.440 that were added sense, but that's where it was then.

00:05:03.420 Um, and that, uh, simple formula for, for understanding them and analyzing our world could be broken

00:05:09.820 down to these categories of oppressed and oppressor.

00:05:13.780 Um, and what needed to happen to make the world a better place was to really uproot all

00:05:19.260 of this so we could like, you all have spoken to, you know, create somewhat of a utopia.

00:05:24.480 I didn't call it then a few years ago.

00:05:26.520 I didn't use that word, but you know, now I can see it as that was really what, what I was

00:05:30.820 striving to be a part of.

00:05:32.540 And, um, uh, I'm going to come back to this later in the story, but I think, um, that was

00:05:38.420 really the formula and the belief system that for me led me to believe as a mother and as a parent

00:05:45.200 that, um, my child or my children could have, um, an innate transgender identity.

00:05:52.260 So when you have that formula of, you know, people of color, white people, um, men, women,

00:05:59.340 you know, as the years went by and I was very involved in the social justice movement,

00:06:04.940 you know, um, transgender, cisgender, you know, it, it slotted right into that formula.

00:06:10.860 And so I don't, um, I know after I wrote the piece, a lot of people like, where did this

00:06:15.560 come from?

00:06:16.280 You know, where does this come from?

00:06:17.480 And, and that I think played a significant role in where it came from, for me that I didn't

00:06:21.880 do a lot of questioning of it.

00:06:23.280 It just kind of slotted right in to that bigger ideology.

00:06:27.300 And, um, and so my partner and I from the best intentions imaginable thought, you know,

00:06:34.600 if we're having children, we want to acknowledge and we want to be very proactive that they could

00:06:40.160 possibly be born male, but have this gender identity that was different, that was a girl.

00:06:47.960 And no matter what, we wanted to make sure that our parenting was, um, going to support

00:06:53.860 that.

00:06:54.540 So I think this is a key point that I want to speak to throughout the interview is that when

00:06:59.500 you are in this belief system, you truly believe in this existence of an innate transgender

00:07:04.440 identity.

00:07:04.940 You believe in that and, or many of us do.

00:07:08.680 And so, um, that's going to make the difference in these debates and these conversations around

00:07:14.480 what you do with children who have gender dysphoria.

00:07:17.960 Um, so for us, it was almost like if we can be gender neutral, if we can, um, be more open

00:07:24.860 and flexible, um, we could maybe avoid a transgender child ever having gender dysphoria.

00:07:31.320 I don't know if that makes sense or not.

00:07:33.180 It might sound kind of crazy, but, but that's kind of where we were coming from or, and I

00:07:38.100 was coming from was really wanting to not do harm to my child is kind of the opposite of

00:07:43.280 what many of us now see as something that does do harm.

00:07:46.200 So the thing that I've always found very interesting about your story, Rose, I mean, the story is

00:07:50.920 fascinating as a whole, but you say that 20 years ago, you were, you got into this ideology

00:07:59.100 20 years ago, because to me, this is something fairly new.

00:08:02.840 I first came across these ways of thinking in 2016.

00:08:05.660 So how did you encounter it 20 years ago?

00:08:09.940 I was just speaking to what I did already.

00:08:12.320 You know, I was in college, you know, I was idealistic.

00:08:15.060 I was an activist and it was really, um, it was, uh, within that world that what you all

00:08:21.740 would call woke ideology was starting to take root.

00:08:24.660 So anti-globalization protests, Iraq war protests, all of those things, this, um, this whole, um,

00:08:32.560 it was really through anti-racism and that framework, um, coming in what, what some people

00:08:38.580 refer to as neo-Marxism right now, right.

00:08:41.180 That sort of really came in and took hold, um, of progressive movements and, uh, organizations,

00:08:48.700 activism.

00:08:49.460 And of course, now we see that, you know, across all of our institutions, but I, I was kind of,

00:08:54.460 I would say at the fledgling, um, some fledgling beginnings of that.

00:08:59.180 Um, and Rose, what was it about this way of looking at the world that particularly appealed

00:09:04.180 to you and you found so compelling?

00:09:06.820 You know, similar to what I already said, it, it made things quite simple.

00:09:11.200 Um, and it also gave, uh, a solution, which was, you know, you see injustice, you know,

00:09:18.960 a war is happening.

00:09:19.980 Why is that war happening?

00:09:21.220 How can we make it stop?

00:09:23.120 Um, you know, I had been involved with some very large protests and mobilizations.

00:09:27.340 And as a young person, you're like, we are going to change the world.

00:09:31.580 Right.

00:09:32.120 And, but the next day you wake up and like, nothing has changed.

00:09:36.060 So there's a sense of despair and confusion and you're looking for an answer.

00:09:42.140 And so, um, so I think that this gave me that answer and kind of gave me a meaning and purpose

00:09:48.780 for my life.

00:09:50.300 Um, and when did the gender ideology part come into it?

00:09:54.320 Because that to me is something very, very, very new.

00:09:58.160 So, um, so I would say once I got into that, um, the, the anti-racism world and, you know,

00:10:05.700 it was kind of like what I talk about when I think about it and me, it's like, almost

00:10:08.580 like I was evangelized.

00:10:09.700 I became an evangelist.

00:10:10.920 Right.

00:10:11.260 And so a lot of my work was working with progressive organizations to bring, um, this

00:10:16.600 framework in and help, um, orient them towards it.

00:10:19.920 And so, um, in that work, you know, I started to meet people, meet people who either knew

00:10:25.740 transgender people and, or who, um, you know, we were building in that inner intersectional

00:10:31.140 lens.

00:10:31.440 So we had to address the gender binary.

00:10:33.280 We had to, you know, introduce people to the concept of pronouns.

00:10:36.960 And this was really within that greater framework of, we're going to bring this collective sense

00:10:42.400 of justice right to the world and all the, that formula, all of these identities need

00:10:48.180 to be part of creating, um, more justice.

00:10:51.820 And so, um, so it was introduced to me through that for sure.

00:10:56.540 Um, but also as a person who was coming out, um, you know, as same sex attracted as a, as

00:11:01.580 a lesbian, my first girlfriend, um, was younger than me and, uh, and she, when I said, you

00:11:09.200 know, I'm interested in dating women, she said, I'm well, I'm not a woman.

00:11:14.600 So when you're like falling in love, um, and you want to, you get, you're going to get on

00:11:21.100 board, um, and you're going to do what you need to do to support that person's, um, expression

00:11:27.640 of who they are.

00:11:29.160 And so for me, the gender ideology, it came out of social justice, but it also, um, was

00:11:34.900 really coming up within, um, let's say the female, uh, what would be called now the queer

00:11:40.840 community, but, you know, um, within, um, within those networks as well, just socially

00:11:46.760 and, and, and the dating scene.

00:11:49.460 And so coming back to the story of your family, Rose, um, the, I mean, the short and the short

00:11:57.000 version, the cliff notes version is you had, uh, two kids, two boys, uh, the first one

00:12:04.740 was quite gender non-conforming.

00:12:07.040 You might say he, he'd probably on the autistic spectrum, a bit different.

00:12:11.260 And you raised him in this gender neutral way because you believe this is in his best

00:12:16.500 interests and everything was going fine.

00:12:19.100 And at some point he says he's a girl and you know, you have some reservations, but everyone

00:12:24.180 around you is delighted for you of how brilliant you are.

00:12:27.180 You're these brilliant, progressive parents, uh, everyone's supporting you with this.

00:12:31.680 And then your second boy who is not gender non-conforming in any way, who's just a normal

00:12:37.140 boy.

00:12:38.140 He says he is a girl.

00:12:40.380 And at this point, the light bulb goes off, right?

00:12:43.960 Tell, tell us the story.

00:12:45.580 Yeah.

00:12:45.840 So, um, a couple of things here.

00:12:49.200 So things were going well, um, but we were never 100% like this was the right thing to

00:12:57.280 do.

00:12:57.520 And I think you try to be succinct writing a piece.

00:12:59.880 I try to be succinct in this interview, but I want people to know at no juncture were

00:13:04.060 we not questioning, was this right or not?

00:13:08.140 Um, part of what the ideology did for me that I came out of was when you have questions and

00:13:14.020 doubts, you tell yourself that that's transphobia.

00:13:17.680 Okay.

00:13:18.240 So there's a self-reinforcing kind of circle loop of keeping you in something even, and

00:13:24.700 maybe especially when you're uncomfortable with it.

00:13:27.620 And so, um, that was a piece of it for me throughout, but, um, you know, what we had

00:13:33.300 seen in our older son was difference, right?

00:13:36.140 We didn't know we, and we still have not, I just want to be very clear.

00:13:39.020 Cause I did get some comments on this from the written piece.

00:13:41.620 We see autistic traits in him.

00:13:43.300 We've not pursued a diagnosis, but what we saw was difference.

00:13:47.320 And the lens that we saw that difference through was informed by gender ideology.

00:13:53.860 It was informed by, could my child be trans?

00:13:56.920 And so when some of those differences, we couldn't put our finger on them, but at the

00:14:02.420 same time, he was kind of more had this affinity to, um, females and female things.

00:14:07.540 And so because of the lens, we saw that difference through, that's what led us to question whether

00:14:12.580 he was trans.

00:14:13.460 So yes, we went with the program when he finally said, you know, I'm a girl.

00:14:17.380 Yes, you can be a girl, but we were never totally comfortable with it.

00:14:20.680 So, so you're right.

00:14:22.240 Something started to happen.

00:14:24.320 Um, well, I just want to say my partner would come to me and say things like, what the fuck

00:14:29.220 is gender, like literally, um, because she had, you know, she's a masculine female and

00:14:35.320 she had experienced, you know, different desires to be a boy in her childhood, but she never

00:14:40.460 transitioned.

00:14:41.080 It was very grateful for that.

00:14:42.400 So she started bringing this to me.

00:14:44.260 Like, what are we talking about?

00:14:45.780 We're talking, what does it really mean?

00:14:47.640 Um, and then I was at the same time, really learning more about, um, attachment and childhood

00:14:53.280 development, and that was starting to give me some of the answers as to why my older son

00:14:59.840 was a little bit different.

00:15:01.440 And I, it was also starting to raise questions of, is this actually potentially doing some,

00:15:09.540 something harmful to him?

00:15:11.000 Um, because I could see some of these things more clearly, uh, this identification.

00:15:15.960 And so that's when our younger son, you know, at three years of age starts saying,

00:15:22.160 I'm a girl and, you know, when you're, when you're an affirming parent, cause that's what

00:15:27.160 I would say we were in, that's why some of our, this story is so unique is that we were

00:15:30.360 what you would call affirming parents, what parents are being told to do in this gender

00:15:36.040 affirming approach.

00:15:37.180 You know, um, we had started to go to these support groups, um, for, uh, you know, parents

00:15:44.020 of transgender children.

00:15:45.600 And, you know, we were in other kind of networks where our kids are being asked their pronouns.

00:15:50.080 And so our younger son starts to say, she, her, and we're just like, hold on a second.

00:15:55.320 No.

00:15:56.420 Um, so a few different things happened, um, you know, at that juncture, first and foremost,

00:16:02.060 it caused us to question everything.

00:16:03.560 So those questions that we had already had, we started to listen to them much more.

00:16:08.720 We started to allow them.

00:16:10.680 And, um, for my partner, you know, I was still like, but no, we know our older son is because

00:16:15.100 of all of these things that she was like, no, you know, we know our younger son isn't our

00:16:20.360 older son is likely not either.

00:16:23.580 Um, but we, we took this to the group.

00:16:26.620 We took this to the group.

00:16:28.140 We took it to the gender therapist.

00:16:30.040 And I think that's one of the most shocking parts of the story.

00:16:32.760 When I look back is the fact that we walked into that therapy appointment said our, you

00:16:39.060 know, our, our four, I think I can't remember if he was three or four by the time we went to

00:16:42.180 the therapist.

00:16:43.380 Um, and you know, we said, we started saying he's a girl too, but we think it's because

00:16:47.680 he wants to be close to his older sibling.

00:16:50.660 And, um, and she said, well, she, you know, immediately she switched to saying she for our

00:16:57.580 younger son, just within sec, literally seconds, you know, you hear these stories of my child

00:17:02.760 wasn't assessed.

00:17:05.160 Assessment doesn't exist when you believe that someone is innately trans.

00:17:09.420 Assessment is actually in violation of that.

00:17:14.480 So when you're three, assessment is transphobia.

00:17:17.600 Correct.

00:17:20.160 So, because you're doubting that person and you're saying there's something wrong with

00:17:24.380 that innate identity, right?

00:17:27.540 That innate, uh, self.

00:17:29.420 And so, so bam, she, her, you need to change, you know, you need to change her pronouns at

00:17:38.040 home.

00:17:39.000 And, uh, miraculously enough, when we, we, we doubted this, we questioned it.

00:17:43.600 We're like, okay, we'll give it a try.

00:17:45.560 Um, when I did that and I tried to connect with my younger son that night, oh, you know,

00:17:51.640 you're my girl.

00:17:52.380 Um, I love you so much.

00:17:54.400 He said, no mama, don't call me that.

00:17:58.340 And so it was just one of those, um, things that another thing where I was like, this isn't

00:18:03.660 right, you know, something's not right here.

00:18:06.740 And so we did a very deep dive, you know, in, um, deeper into these questions of attachment

00:18:13.540 and where we actually saw those differences then from my, my older son as, as both being,

00:18:20.880 um, you know, what might've given him that affinity.

00:18:23.260 So when you talk about kids who are on the spectrum, for example, um, you know, they,

00:18:28.600 uh, have difficulties with personal attachment.

00:18:31.520 And so, whereas my younger son wanted to be the same as his older brother by saying he was

00:18:37.540 a girl, what we came to see from my older son in part was that he had that same drive for

00:18:42.300 sameness, but it was towards things because it was too vulnerable for him to attach to

00:18:47.540 people.

00:18:48.760 And so that feminine, you know, I like the barrettes or I like the flowers, you know, that we saw

00:18:55.340 through that lens of he could, that could mean he's trans.

00:18:58.380 Um, was that a function of that, uh, psychologically?

00:19:02.720 And, um, and we also saw that those special interests changed over time.

00:19:07.380 So we started to see like, this is actually not about this gender essence.

00:19:11.880 It's really about him, um, and a deeper emotional process.

00:19:17.280 And so after a period of years, we came to this, neither of our sons is innately transgender.

00:19:24.660 I want to say this clearly at that, when we came to that decision, I still didn't see it

00:19:29.160 as a belief system.

00:19:30.040 I was still in it.

00:19:31.280 I was still in it, but I had come painstakingly.

00:19:35.800 Both of us had to the conclusion that, um, that our sons weren't actually trans, that it

00:19:41.560 was something else for both of them.

00:19:43.120 And we were clear in that one last thing of, this is really important that I want to say

00:19:48.040 is that this belief system, the heart of it says that children should lead.

00:19:54.140 I just want people to hear this.

00:19:57.780 This is so critical and it's contradictory because once children say they are the opposite

00:20:05.700 sex, then adults lead them to gender affirmation.

00:20:10.980 Okay.

00:20:11.780 To cross-sex, concretizing that cross-sex identity and medicalizing it.

00:20:17.560 Okay.

00:20:17.880 But the, if you're going to call it a religion, if you're going to call it a belief system,

00:20:21.820 whatever you call it, the sacred core is children must lead.

00:20:30.180 But what I realized in those two plus years of anguish was that I had led my child into

00:20:37.180 it and therefore I must lead him out of it.

00:20:41.300 It is my responsibility.

00:20:43.960 I am the one who's taking him off.

00:20:45.840 I saw it as a highway where drive, I drove him on the on-ramp.

00:20:50.280 I'm driving him off.

00:20:52.660 And what you have to understand is that in that process for us to actually say that to

00:20:57.260 some people who are in this belief system, that is so deeply wrong.

00:21:03.900 It is absolutely counter to the core of, of what, um, what people are relying on, uh, that

00:21:12.760 your children is the one who must lead you, um, even though they're then going to be led.

00:21:20.060 So we did that.

00:21:21.260 We came to the decision that, um, that this was in his best interest, that this was in

00:21:26.320 his best interest.

00:21:27.200 Um, and so just to tell that story a little bit, um, you know, we were trying to figure

00:21:34.740 out like, how do we, um, how do we get them out?

00:21:39.820 Cause this is not rational.

00:21:41.340 It's emotional.

00:21:42.460 How do we get them out?

00:21:43.500 And so one of his special interests at that time was chickens.

00:21:47.380 He loved chickens.

00:21:48.580 And, um, this is funny in the sense that we go back to the Matt Walsh film, you know, that

00:21:53.460 scene.

00:21:54.580 Uh, so chickens played a role here too, but, um, but you know, what we decided to say to

00:21:59.880 him in a way he could understand emotionally was, um, you're a rooster, you know, honey,

00:22:05.480 you're a rooster.

00:22:06.180 And so I came up with some bullet points, you know, for this conversation, I sat him

00:22:11.180 down and, um, I said, you know, I, you know, I'm so sorry that I told you something different.

00:22:18.680 Uh, now I know more, I was wrong and you are a rooster.

00:22:23.680 I know that means that males cannot be female.

00:22:28.160 It also means that a male can't be a girl because he always knew he was male, but we had

00:22:32.280 this, I like, like kids are going to understand the difference between gender and

00:22:36.160 sex, but anyways, you, you cannot be female.

00:22:39.660 That means you cannot be a girl.

00:22:41.680 And, um, I know you, it feels like you can't live without it because once it was in, it

00:22:48.840 was locked real tight.

00:22:51.900 Okay.

00:22:52.360 And this is part of that psychology that we don't get to when the ideology is keeping

00:22:57.020 us on the surface.

00:22:57.880 We don't get to that deeper piece.

00:23:00.260 I know that you can't live, you feel like you can't live without it, but you can.

00:23:06.160 And you're actually going to be much happier because I did truly, at that point, I saw the

00:23:10.360 ways that it was impacting him psychologically that were not in his best interest.

00:23:14.900 And so, um, you know, he was mad.

00:23:18.140 I knew he would be mad.

00:23:19.880 And, um, he said to me, mama, this is your fault.

00:23:26.680 You changed my name.

00:23:28.440 Um, so imagine had we not, you know, had we not realized our mistake and you go 10, 20

00:23:38.480 years into the future, imagine that mama, this was your fault then.

00:23:43.060 Um, so I said, yeah, you're right.

00:23:49.020 You're right.

00:23:50.500 And this is another part of the story that just, you know, I want to share.

00:23:54.260 Um, I knew he was going to be mad.

00:23:56.860 I knew what I was trying to get to the sad.

00:23:59.140 I was trying to get to the sad because that was going to tell me that he had understood

00:24:04.680 what, what Dr.

00:24:06.340 Gordon Neufeld, who I just want to plug here, the book, his book, hold onto your kids, this

00:24:10.720 concept of futility, which is an essential part of us adapting to life, maturing in life.

00:24:18.220 It's when we come against something we cannot change.

00:24:20.760 And our, our heart is soft enough to feel that vulnerability and cry about it.

00:24:27.000 And so I knew my son had to some point get to those tears, um, where he was accepting

00:24:33.540 something that he couldn't change.

00:24:36.240 And, um, so, but the mad came first and we, I decided we're going to go on a bike ride.

00:24:41.800 You know, we're going to go, I'm going to let him lead.

00:24:43.280 I'm going to get, put him in the front.

00:24:44.200 Cause I knew these dynamics were at play.

00:24:46.340 And, um, as we're walking out the door, getting on the bikes, he turns around to me and

00:24:50.640 he had this a lot with a lot of these highly sensitive kids and autistic, you know, spectrum

00:24:55.300 kids.

00:24:55.580 It's like, there's this maturate, you know, they're less mature in some way.

00:24:58.460 So he lives in this imaginary world.

00:24:59.860 He, you know, had this farm he was going to create in his future, uh, called wildwood

00:25:05.640 farm.

00:25:06.000 And, um, he turns to me and he just gives me these dagger eyes and he says, mama, you are

00:25:11.920 not invited to wildwood farm.

00:25:15.160 And it just hit me again, this incredible validation.

00:25:20.640 For this decision that we were making to lead him off that highway.

00:25:25.080 This is a child.

00:25:28.120 This is a child.

00:25:29.500 He is uninviting me from an imaginary farm.

00:25:33.140 Um, he has no ability to understand the consequences of changing his sex.

00:25:39.160 Um, so in the days after that, you know, he did get to those tears.

00:25:47.220 He did get to those tears.

00:25:48.900 And what I write about in the piece and what I want to share with you is that I imagined

00:25:52.820 that he would be mad at me for a very long time.

00:25:56.200 And I was expecting it was going to be hard.

00:26:00.140 I was not expecting that the very next day, what I would experience in my son was a great

00:26:07.040 sense of relief, a great sense of rest.

00:26:11.020 And literally when we talk about being in the lead and how this put him into the lead,

00:26:16.060 that's deeply unsettling for a child.

00:26:18.680 They might, they might express it through being bossy or being, you know, in all these

00:26:25.200 ways we might interpret as willfulness or confidence or tightly holding onto something,

00:26:29.660 but ultimately they need to rest knowing that we've got them, you know, that we're taking

00:26:35.020 care of them.

00:26:36.340 And so when I, when I took that back, he was able to set this adult burden down and he literally

00:26:43.340 spent the next 24 hours leaning into me.

00:26:47.240 And, and even his whole, you know, just, you could just feel palpably that he was laying

00:26:53.660 the burden down.

00:26:56.960 Yeah.

00:26:57.400 The thing, the thing that I've noticed, Rose, with, you know, when people talk about this

00:27:01.860 and obviously, you know, I was a teacher and I, I was very lucky in my teaching career.

00:27:05.780 I taught everything from the age of four, kindergarten, right the way through to 18.

00:27:09.940 And you listen to people's stories.

00:27:14.100 And if you were told our grandparents' generation or our mother's generation, what we were doing,

00:27:20.600 they would be saying, well, but that's against everything that we know to be true.

00:27:25.800 That is against every type of instinct a mother has.

00:27:30.820 How have we reached this point where we're so willing to subvert our instincts for an ideology?

00:27:36.380 Oh, it's such a good question.

00:27:41.420 It's such a good question.

00:27:43.000 I wish I had the answer.

00:27:44.680 I wish I had the answer, but I, I do think that that it's a subversion of instincts, but

00:27:50.920 it's also an inversion of reality.

00:27:53.120 Like I, I keep on coming back to that because parents who are in this are absolutely believing

00:28:01.940 they're doing the right thing for their child.

00:28:03.500 So all of those instincts to protect at all costs are there, but it's based on something

00:28:11.960 that is not real.

00:28:16.540 And I think that is the power.

00:28:18.100 That's the power of the belief system.

00:28:19.600 No, that's, I mean, and so I don't know how to answer that question because I think that

00:28:22.800 is the power of having this locked in belief system.

00:28:27.060 Yeah, it's a power of ideology and this is, I mean, one of the things I wanted to say is

00:28:32.680 the internet is a mean place and people will, you know, have their own views about your

00:28:38.720 story and what your family went through.

00:28:41.140 But I think it's really important that you, you wrote the piece that you wrote and that

00:28:45.220 you are here speaking with us now, because I think it's important that, as you say, people

00:28:49.580 recognize that, you know, it's easy to think, or, you know, a bunch of stupid evil people

00:28:55.300 over there are doing this thing, whereas actually, you know, you're clearly very intelligent.

00:29:00.200 You're clearly extremely well-intentioned for your kids.

00:29:03.400 But this is why Francis and I have spent so much time talking about this issue, because

00:29:08.080 ideology is incredibly powerful.

00:29:11.240 And if you find people who are looking for meaning and purpose and want to feel good about

00:29:17.880 themselves and want to, quote unquote, change the world, then you give them a system of

00:29:21.720 beliefs that preys on those desires and offers them these oversimplified solutions, you can

00:29:29.160 get a lot of harm done without anybody ever wanting to do anything bad.

00:29:34.220 Yeah.

00:29:34.940 Yeah.

00:29:35.480 And so let me, yeah, let me speak to that a little bit.

00:29:39.620 And maybe, I don't know if this will get to your question, Francis, or not, but I'm going

00:29:45.480 to go back again, putting the child in the lead.

00:29:48.600 So this core of this ideology.

00:29:50.620 So I want to explain how that then plays out for parents.

00:29:54.700 Okay.

00:29:56.560 When you put your child in the lead, I, you know, you say you're, you, I know you're born

00:30:02.140 a male, but you say you're a girl, then you're a girl, you know, or asking a lot of parents

00:30:07.240 in this, in this belief system, young parents, you know, progressive, like they're asking their

00:30:12.520 kids what their gender is.

00:30:13.720 Right.

00:30:14.080 So they're kind of, um, subverting that natural hierarchical relationship and putting kids

00:30:20.220 here, right.

00:30:21.300 Leading this.

00:30:22.660 Um, so you have that going on, but then when, and that's really impacts the entire relationship

00:30:29.340 and as well as the kid's emotional stability.

00:30:32.240 Um, then you have, um, an ideology that says if your child then expresses that they're the

00:30:41.760 opposite sex, um, they are transgender and they, that's now say that's a sacred category.

00:30:49.400 I'm going to use those words.

00:30:51.240 That is a sacred category.

00:30:53.840 And it's one, when you plug it into the formula, oppressor, oppressed, oppressed, privileged.

00:31:00.480 If you're a cisgender or you don't identify as trans, you can't know your child.

00:31:07.480 I mean, that's what this belief system does to parents.

00:31:10.420 You no longer know this core part of your child because you are privileged.

00:31:14.640 You're not in that sacred category.

00:31:17.520 So you have the severing of the, you know, you have this inverting of the, the relationship

00:31:23.440 with putting the child in the lead.

00:31:24.660 And then you have the severing of that intuitive knowledge, that instinct, because you now can't

00:31:32.080 know this part of your child.

00:31:34.180 Okay.

00:31:34.740 And they're sacred.

00:31:36.420 Okay.

00:31:37.940 Um, who can you go to then to be the arbiter of your relationship?

00:31:44.080 Well, you have to trust experts.

00:31:48.220 You have to trust experts and you have to, um, ask other trans adults.

00:31:55.300 If you are not trans.

00:31:57.780 And sorry, Rose, carry on.

00:32:00.460 Yeah, no.

00:32:00.940 So, so, so I wanted to share that piece, you know, it, and then you, if you're in that belief

00:32:06.540 system, you then are saying, if I am uncomfortable, I have to stuff it down.

00:32:12.840 They actually have like some of that, that doctor in the Matt Welsh film.

00:32:17.280 When I was in the midst of my anguish and trying to reach out, like, where can I find

00:32:21.500 more information?

00:32:22.000 I do Google searches.

00:32:22.940 And the only things I would find were the people who don't want to transition their kids

00:32:28.360 are bad conservatives.

00:32:29.300 And if you're good, you are going to do the gender affirming route.

00:32:33.600 So I actually found a slideshow where that same doctor, um, uh, said, this is said all

00:32:41.380 the time to parents.

00:32:42.000 You have to grieve.

00:32:42.960 You have to go through a grieving process.

00:32:44.540 You have to grieve the son and you have to accept the daughter.

00:32:47.100 And, and so when parents have these emotions come up, there's a bit, there's already the

00:32:52.020 talking points from both experts and peers to say, of course, you're going to have a hard

00:32:57.740 time with this.

00:32:58.820 Of course, you're going to have a hard time with this, but this is what's best for your

00:33:02.580 child.

00:33:04.040 And Rose, that is a really shocking thing for me.

00:33:07.260 It's the experts, the people who have been trained, the people who are experts, the people

00:33:13.980 who should know how to support children and diagnose them and put in structures and treatments

00:33:22.040 in place to help children who have, who are having some kind of mental suffering, whatever

00:33:26.740 it may be.

00:33:27.940 They just seem to have abandoned their responsibility in science in favor of an ideology.

00:33:33.280 Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, to speak at least to like the gender therapist that we

00:33:39.160 saw, I mean, my perspective is that she was in therapy because she was an activist.

00:33:44.160 Right.

00:33:45.020 You know, I think a lot of, of people at this point are, um, entering these professions as

00:33:51.440 activists.

00:33:53.940 Yeah.

00:33:54.340 Uh, and this is one of the things that I found incredibly worrying about what you wrote, because

00:34:02.980 based on what you're saying, it's like the moment, uh, you, you know, your child says,

00:34:09.360 you know, you know, I'm the opposite to, to, to the sex that I was born and you go to all

00:34:15.540 of these different people.

00:34:16.660 It wasn't just therapists.

00:34:17.760 It was also the entire community, right?

00:34:20.000 It was people clapping along the transition.

00:34:24.280 Right.

00:34:24.720 Now keep it, you know, it wasn't everyone in our community, but, um, but certainly most,

00:34:30.820 you know, the, the general tone was, you know, you're doing the right thing.

00:34:34.520 So yes, definitely.

00:34:35.100 We went to a couple, you know, a few different support groups and, and one of them, we were

00:34:39.000 just like told our story, we're like, did we do the right thing?

00:34:41.580 Did we do the right thing?

00:34:42.380 And they're like, you guys are amazing.

00:34:44.720 You know, you guys are amazing.

00:34:46.200 Your child just told you one day and you changed his entire life.

00:34:50.080 That's, that's just incredible.

00:34:53.080 And her entire life.

00:34:57.640 And, and did, what, did it have initially positive things at the start?

00:35:02.500 Did you initially start to see with the older child initially that he actually had some more

00:35:10.400 positive moments?

00:35:11.660 Maybe he became happier.

00:35:13.040 Did that sort of assuage your fears at that point?

00:35:17.340 He was never unhappy,

00:35:18.640 but he, but he had some, he had some challenges.

00:35:23.000 He was different in these ways, but, but he certainly was happy, um, with this idea of

00:35:31.600 being a girl.

00:35:33.540 Um, so, so yeah, so there were some things that were like, that said, yes, this, this, this

00:35:39.540 was right, you know?

00:35:41.200 Um, but a lot of them went along with what people would speak to as sex-based stereotypes,

00:35:46.920 wearing a dress, growing his hair long, um, you know, being into Elsa, you know, um, so

00:35:53.820 things that boys can absolutely do while being boys.

00:35:59.280 So, so yeah, there was definitely enough there.

00:36:04.140 And, and what we did see is that it did lock in, right?

00:36:07.500 So when we started to question and, and, and kind of bring it up to him, he didn't want

00:36:12.580 to talk about it.

00:36:13.540 You know, he didn't want to talk about it.

00:36:15.540 So, you know, part of what, like for people listening, you know, gender wider lens is an

00:36:20.680 amazing podcast.

00:36:21.500 And, uh, I want to speak to my story of how I found that a little bit as well.

00:36:26.120 Um, but what I will say is that what I read when I first found that podcast was that they

00:36:30.540 were in this exploratory approach.

00:36:32.540 Like, is this a defense?

00:36:34.000 Is this some sort of a defense?

00:36:35.620 And I would say that's similar to what I found over time with, oh, my son actually had these

00:36:40.880 different special interests and that they changed, um, that it wasn't about gender at its core.

00:36:46.880 Um, that the locking in of his holding onto this identity was some sort of defense.

00:36:55.800 He, I think he needed it to exist as a boy without a skin, like a highly sensitive boy

00:37:03.380 in this world whose parents hadn't told him that he was a boy.

00:37:08.100 He, but he needed to know what he was, you know?

00:37:10.860 And so when he locked in, there were some defenses around that.

00:37:14.160 And that took us time to, you know, to understand that again, it wasn't, uh, about being innately

00:37:20.880 trans, but rather a defense.

00:37:22.800 And he had that defensive reaction to other things in his life as well.

00:37:27.080 So that was part of us really putting the, you know, whether you call it like unraveling

00:37:31.180 it or, or putting the pieces together, it helped our insight to really see, um, what was

00:37:37.120 going on at a deeper level.

00:37:38.220 And that's what the ideology stops you from doing.

00:37:40.280 You just say, this is this period.

00:37:43.420 There's no understanding of what's underneath.

00:37:46.640 Um, so I want to speak to the idea.

00:37:49.680 Like, I think an interesting part of my story is like how I'm here today talking to you about

00:37:53.520 this.

00:37:54.400 Um, because when I, uh, when I made that decision, when my partner and I said, we're going to hold

00:38:00.900 our son in this futility that he can't be a girl.

00:38:03.460 You know, we came to that from, um, from the process that I'm describing to you, you

00:38:10.040 know, really looking at these different layers of attachment development, maturation, what

00:38:14.860 pieces of it were about being highly sensitive, how we had led him on was a core of that for

00:38:20.600 me.

00:38:20.780 Like I've spoken to and taking responsibility for that.

00:38:24.440 Um, we came to that decision without, for me, without seeing outside the belief system.

00:38:30.380 I still believe that kids could be innately trans.

00:38:34.020 And, um, it was just that my kids weren't, um, we made the decision to have that conversation

00:38:41.580 with him.

00:38:42.920 And literally that night after the kids went to bed, I was up and I did another internet

00:38:47.640 search.

00:38:48.500 And for years I had done internet searches and I had not found anything that, you know,

00:38:53.780 that, that was coming from like a liberal or progressive kind of aspect, which at that

00:38:58.400 time I needed.

00:38:59.060 Um, I'll be honest with you.

00:39:00.840 I don't need that anymore, but at that time I didn't need that.

00:39:03.920 Um, and somehow I found this blog fourth wave now, which is out of the United States.

00:39:09.080 And on that blog, they were saying, you know, we support lesbian and gay people, but we do

00:39:14.480 not support the medicalization of children, um, around gender identity.

00:39:18.960 And they were also questioning social transition.

00:39:21.680 So it was literally that night that I was like, and then they said, we're progressive, you know?

00:39:28.520 Um, and I just, up until that point, I didn't even know people like this existed, you know?

00:39:34.600 And I needed that to bring me to a point of being like, it's okay for me to question this

00:39:40.580 stuff.

00:39:41.820 And, um, and that led me to finding the gender a wider lens podcast.

00:39:45.120 And I listened to the first episode, which was really about really outlining this whole

00:39:51.260 thing as, you know, there's generally two camps.

00:39:53.900 There's people who believe in this thing called gender identity.

00:39:57.040 And they broke down what goes into that belief and how that looks.

00:40:00.120 And they said, then there's people who believe that gender dysphoria exists and, and what goes

00:40:04.620 into that perspective and how that looks.

00:40:07.320 And it, for whatever reason, it was like, for the first time, I, it helped me see outside

00:40:15.060 of my own belief.

00:40:17.560 I was just in it.

00:40:19.340 And you hear detransitioners speaking to these moments too, where they, they're in it.

00:40:24.580 They can't see outside of it till something happens that like breaks through.

00:40:28.200 And, um, for whatever reason that did this for me.

00:40:31.560 And so the next morning I was just sitting in the kitchen.

00:40:35.140 I can visualize the wall of my kitchen, um, where I was standing and I'm thinking about

00:40:39.980 this belief and literally I feel this is going to sound nuts, but I feel like a pin comes

00:40:46.560 out of my head and the whole thing just crashes.

00:40:50.040 And like a second later, I'm on my phone, I'm texting a friend.

00:40:53.600 I'm like, you know, this big thing is happening.

00:40:56.080 Um, we've realized that our older son is not actually transgender and we're going to be

00:41:01.280 rolling back the social transition.

00:41:03.200 And I feel like I am leaving a cult because that's what it felt like to me.

00:41:07.140 It's just, you know, we don't have to say whether it is or isn't like, that's just what

00:41:10.760 I experienced with that and realizing that I had had a belief system.

00:41:16.500 I didn't know I had a belief system till that moment.

00:41:19.080 And, um, and then a second later I hit send and then I'm free freeze.

00:41:25.720 And I think, what if she's like, she's in the cult, like she's still in that belief.

00:41:32.280 And here I have just shared this thing and what, you know, what is her response going

00:41:37.520 to be?

00:41:37.880 And so, um, and, and ultimately she believed us and trust us and supported us.

00:41:43.000 So that's a, that was great.

00:41:44.260 But, um, but there was this moment for me and, and this is going to be different for

00:41:48.980 everybody, but for me, um, you know, it's like, that was the feeling that I had.

00:41:57.040 What was the reaction from other people when you, you made this decision?

00:42:02.120 And, uh, I can't imagine the gender therapist was happy.

00:42:05.520 Oh, well, we had fired her long before.

00:42:10.220 We were like, see you later.

00:42:13.300 I think we had two sessions with her.

00:42:15.760 And when I came back from the first one, having had that experience with my younger son and,

00:42:20.720 and we had found some other support that was coming more from this, you know, the attachment

00:42:25.520 based perspective, we had reached out to some other people who were more working with parents

00:42:30.600 rather than children.

00:42:31.360 And, and, um, you know, I had kind of, you know, I, she threatened me in the second one.

00:42:37.280 So this was big.

00:42:38.560 I have to laugh at this.

00:42:40.060 So, um, when I was like, no, he said he didn't want to, you know, no, I'm not going to do this.

00:42:47.460 She was like, well, if you don't, he's going to develop an attachment disorder.

00:42:52.380 And, and I was like, um, you don't know anything about attachment.

00:42:57.020 Like that's clear.

00:42:58.140 I know so much more than you do.

00:43:01.200 And if my son is going to have these issues, I know how to see them.

00:43:05.320 You know, there was just, it was just such utter bullshit at that point that I, that I,

00:43:10.720 you know, could walk away pretty easily.

00:43:12.940 And so I would say that for parents who are very enmeshed with the experts and in peer

00:43:19.540 groups, this is going to be hard.

00:43:22.480 You know, we were so fortunate.

00:43:24.220 We, I had the strength and we had the confidence in us that we hadn't, we had left the experts

00:43:30.020 long before and we had never gone full in with them.

00:43:34.040 And so, um, that helped a lot, but I would say, you know, what we had in terms of like

00:43:39.080 taking that off ramp, what I, what I told some people in my life, like my, some of my brothers,

00:43:43.860 I said, it's much easier to get on than off.

00:43:48.560 And, um, so getting off was hard.

00:43:50.820 And, um, and, uh, we had some conversations with different individuals in our lives that,

00:43:56.980 um, were difficult.

00:43:57.840 And we had to really pick and choose who we could trust with the full information of how

00:44:05.360 we came to this decision and what we did with it and who we had to really, um, give just

00:44:09.940 the basics.

00:44:11.340 And, um, and we had to kind of navigate through that.

00:44:14.400 And we did have one person in our life, um, a couple of different people who were like,

00:44:19.660 you know, trying to get us to go to counselors.

00:44:21.320 Um, we had, uh, uh, we're like, no, we're clear, we're good, you know, um, and we did

00:44:28.680 have, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, kind of a teacher of our children's past who we had

00:44:35.720 shared some of this with and who really, you know, was, is deeply in that belief system

00:44:40.080 enough that she, you know, was like, I, I can't believe you're not letting your kids

00:44:44.440 choose their pronouns, you know, um, really unsettled by that aspect of it.

00:44:50.100 And so we just had to navigate it.

00:44:53.260 There was nothing else to do.

00:44:54.420 And, and I think that anchoring for me, and I led my child into this, it was my responsibility

00:45:02.020 to take him off was just what held me solid through, through all of that.

00:45:07.320 And that's what those instincts that I had shut down and those feelings and those emotions,

00:45:12.820 because what I, I had experiencing that thing I taught you about that severing of that relationship,

00:45:18.100 that inversion, I felt that just, um, physically, I felt that emotionally.

00:45:24.380 And so when it came back in to, to place for me, that's when I realized how much it had been

00:45:30.600 severed.

00:45:31.360 And so nothing was going to stop me from defending it at that point.

00:45:36.600 And Rose, what are your, how are your sons now?

00:45:39.960 Um, I'm, I think they're both doing great.

00:45:43.900 Um, yeah, yeah.

00:45:45.820 It, you know, it's, there was a time period where it was much harder.

00:45:48.860 I will say for my younger son, as soon as his older brother was his older brother, he

00:45:52.600 was like, great, you know, I'm good.

00:45:58.780 He had more distress.

00:46:00.580 He was very distressed.

00:46:02.180 And I want to tell this story really quickly.

00:46:03.980 Um, we did never social transitioned our younger son, like I spoke to, but he showed so much

00:46:10.240 distress over it.

00:46:12.220 You know, it was so ironic that our older son had no distress.

00:46:15.760 We transitioned him.

00:46:16.520 Our younger son had a ton of distress and we had to, at that point, hold our ground and

00:46:21.180 not do it because we understood what was underneath.

00:46:23.780 And, um, but there were some, I'm sorry to interrupt.

00:46:26.960 What was the distress caused by?

00:46:29.960 Um, well, I, this drive to be the same as his older sibling.

00:46:35.420 Yeah.

00:46:36.860 Conflicting with the fact that he also knew that he was a boy.

00:46:40.320 No, the fact that we wouldn't let him use she, her pronouns.

00:46:44.640 So even after that moment in the, in, you know, in the, you know, Hey, you're my girl

00:46:50.200 and you know, I love you.

00:46:52.140 And he said, don't call me that.

00:46:54.000 Right.

00:46:54.440 He continued to want to be she, her in all ways.

00:46:58.540 Keep in mind, this was always, and practically only in the context of when they would go

00:47:04.520 out and his older brother, was she, her in like a camp setting or a, you know, the after

00:47:10.800 school program, whatever it was.

00:47:12.880 Um, that's when it was most distressing to him.

00:47:15.400 He was away from us and he needed to be close to his brother and he needed that closeness through

00:47:21.480 being the same.

00:47:22.480 And we weren't letting him do it.

00:47:24.260 Um, and, um, so just as an example of that, um, they went to camp, he was four, his older

00:47:30.660 brother was six and, um, his older brother was with the girls.

00:47:35.100 He was with the boys.

00:47:36.260 He came home so upset, just so distraught.

00:47:40.520 And he, and I kept on going back to, you know, we're not changing this.

00:47:44.780 You know, he looked at me, he's four years old and he said, mama, when I hear he, it means

00:47:54.380 shit.

00:48:00.520 And this is another thing we could do a whole nother, like five podcasts on what we are doing

00:48:05.280 to these little boys.

00:48:06.100 Rose, there are a lot of people, unfortunately, who are in a very similar situation to you

00:48:14.060 all around the world.

00:48:16.740 They might well be listening to this and I hope they are watching it.

00:48:20.320 What advice would you give to those parents who are going through a similar situation to

00:48:26.260 you?

00:48:27.960 Um, the biggest piece of advice that I would give is that it is not transphobic to question.

00:48:36.100 It is not, uh, transphobic to question whether or not essentially telling your child that

00:48:46.120 they can change sex is in their best interest.

00:48:50.060 Um, it's not transphobic to, uh, not feel good about this, what, you know, what you're

00:48:58.240 doing or what you're being told to do to feel uncomfortable with it.

00:49:02.000 And it's a place where I just really encourage people.

00:49:05.120 If you have doubts to listen to them and what was important to me to hold my ground through

00:49:13.120 this whole thing and what we had to navigate with other people who wanted us to keep our

00:49:17.780 child in that sacred status, people, some people did not want to hear that it wasn't

00:49:22.600 working, um, and that we're, that it was going to change.

00:49:25.960 Um, you have to picture your child at 20 years old, 30 years old, 40 year old, 50 year old.

00:49:37.060 What is their life going to look like then?

00:49:39.260 And those experts, those friends, those neighbors, whoever they are, who are like, you know, telling

00:49:45.840 you what to do are not going to be there for your child.

00:49:50.800 You are.

00:49:53.000 Um, and I think some people have, I've talked about this, seen it as a highway.

00:49:57.240 Some people have talked about this as a train.

00:49:59.860 You know, if you are affirming your child currently, you have put your child on that train.

00:50:04.500 Your child is on a train and it has one destination.

00:50:09.780 Okay.

00:50:11.420 And, um, what you, you know, I just say, I did it.

00:50:15.400 You can do it.

00:50:17.440 You need to have the courage to grab your child's hand and jump off.

00:50:22.760 And there may be distress.

00:50:24.240 There may be anger.

00:50:25.080 There may be tears at the impact, but just be patient, stay calm.

00:50:29.420 And over time, healing, healing will come.

00:50:34.500 And Rose, what are your thoughts on, as a consequence of your experiences on the idea

00:50:39.860 and the ideology itself?

00:50:41.800 Like the, obviously I think you've probably shifted somewhat in your opinions, but, um,

00:50:47.860 how, you know, how far did you go the other way?

00:50:50.900 I guess is what I'm asking.

00:50:52.060 Do you think no one's trans?

00:50:54.280 Do you think some people are like, what is your, what are your overall thoughts on that

00:50:58.960 whole thing?

00:51:00.120 I would say, you know, I, um, it's an ongoing process of, um, I'm going to be a

00:51:04.480 reflection for me.

00:51:05.780 I, I, I absolutely, I have people who are identified as trans in my life, you know,

00:51:11.160 and who I love, um, who are adults.

00:51:13.720 And, um, I think, I think just like I'm speaking to, uh, for my own process that, that, that there's

00:51:22.180 going to be a complex set of factors that go into that identification for adults.

00:51:28.360 Um, I, I, I no longer believe that, that this is something that is innate, that is born in

00:51:34.820 people.

00:51:35.540 Um, and so that whole piece, you know, was important for me to come to, but I do believe

00:51:42.200 that, that for many people, this identification feels like an, a core part of themselves.

00:51:48.560 And, um, I, I do think that a lot of that is likely coming from this belief system, you

00:51:57.780 know, and it's not that, um, I, I, you know, that there, you know, there are adults in my

00:52:03.360 life who feel good with having taken on, gone the medical route or who feel good about being

00:52:10.360 in the non-binary, you know, space.

00:52:13.360 Um, but I, what I no longer believe is that this is something that should be evangelized

00:52:19.520 and, and, and institutional and pushed on children, uh, this concept of gender identity.

00:52:24.980 I, I no longer believe in that, um, as something, and I do find it to be quite dangerous and, and,

00:52:32.740 and, and so many ways.

00:52:34.760 And does it, does it worry you that particularly in the States, this is being used more and more

00:52:39.500 in schools, particularly in primary schools?

00:52:42.000 For sure.

00:52:43.340 Yes.

00:52:44.440 Yes, absolutely.

00:52:45.740 Um, yeah, I have two, you know, another story here, you know, my, I, my younger son is in

00:52:50.980 second grade and in their small school, um, they have two non-binary staff assistants and

00:52:57.800 one of them is in my, my son's second grade class.

00:53:00.220 And, um, and his teacher, again, best intention, she wants to make sure that this adult is included,

00:53:07.440 um, and, and respected by the children.

00:53:10.580 And, um, with, because of that, she started off the school year saying, if you change your name,

00:53:16.440 the rule for this class is that you have to respect the new name.

00:53:20.700 And so some kids, the first day change their names, it wasn't a long gender.

00:53:25.300 It was just kind of random, but, um, but there is this, yes, I am, I'll say I'm deeply concerned,

00:53:32.600 um, that the children are being told that it's a matter of respect, uh, to do these things.

00:53:40.280 I think the, the core point as well, out of everything you've said today is the fundamental

00:53:47.360 idea that children should lead is the most insane thing that anyone has ever come up with

00:53:53.900 in relation to parenting.

00:53:55.020 Is it not?

00:53:55.800 I mean, they literally, I, I, you know, uh, I had, uh, my son is eight months old and, you

00:54:03.320 know, I, I think I see him growing.

00:54:05.640 He's getting smarter.

00:54:06.440 He's not going to know what gender or sex is or what identity is at three years old.

00:54:11.540 He's not qualified to make that decision.

00:54:13.940 It's just, it's, it's, I've got no idea about his lived experience.

00:54:17.560 Well, I don't, but we'll find out what his lived experience is mainly pooing in his pants

00:54:22.980 and, and, uh, drinking milk.

00:54:24.600 That's, that's all he does.

00:54:25.580 Right.

00:54:25.980 My point is, you know, the very notion that children should lead, uh, is insane.

00:54:34.060 It's insane.

00:54:34.980 And how we've got to this place that so many people believe it, uh, it is terrifying, which

00:54:41.260 is why I'm so grateful for your time, Rose.

00:54:43.740 I'm so grateful you wrote the piece that you wrote and you came on the show to talk about

00:54:47.160 it because I say again, I think your voice is very necessary.

00:54:51.300 People need to hear this.

00:54:53.020 Um, people need to understand that there are consequences to ideology and their consequences

00:54:57.940 to idealism of the type that you thank God your, your kids in the long run avoided.

00:55:02.800 I'm so pleased to hear that they're, they're doing well now.

00:55:05.660 Yeah.

00:55:06.000 And can I circle back just really quickly to the question you asked me, Francis, around

00:55:09.900 what do I believe now?

00:55:11.060 I feel like I'm kind of like, what?

00:55:12.600 Uh, I got a little lost there.

00:55:13.840 I want to just say my, my core belief at this point, when you say how I've changed, it just

00:55:19.000 really rests on the fact that it is impossible to change sex.

00:55:21.960 That if, if I could just sum up, you know, what do I believe about this now?

00:55:27.600 It is impossible to change sex.

00:55:30.760 Based on that, should, why are we telling children that they can?

00:55:35.920 Yeah.

00:55:36.320 That's what it's like to sum it up.

00:55:38.720 Thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:55:40.480 We're going to do a couple of questions from our local supporters that only they will get

00:55:44.140 to see.

00:55:44.580 But before we wrap up, as always, we have one final question for you, which is what's the

00:55:49.220 one thing we're not talking about as a society that you think we really should be?

00:55:53.580 Uh, this is, I was thinking about this ahead of time.

00:55:55.840 I'm like, I don't know how to answer that.

00:55:58.040 Um, but what I really came to, I guess, um, you know, and maybe this is more for like,

00:56:06.560 let just put it out there to the parents, put it out there to the parents.

00:56:09.340 So, um, there is so much when you are aware of these issues like gender ideology in the

00:56:15.580 schools, capture of institutions, all of these things, you know, they, and, and maybe parents

00:56:20.680 out there whose children are in this deep.

00:56:23.420 Um, and, uh, it is so scary.

00:56:26.600 It's just so deeply alarming.

00:56:28.940 Um, and I think what I keep, I worry for my son's future, you know, and I worry for their

00:56:35.000 kids.

00:56:35.520 And what I keep on coming back to is the, this core concept of attachment.

00:56:40.520 And so number one, we should be talking more about attachment.

00:56:43.340 People should all go out and read, hold on to your kids, Dr. Gordon Neufeld's book.

00:56:47.640 Um, but what, what, what we really need to come back to is understanding that the power

00:56:53.060 that we have, we can't maybe change the whole dynamic at the big picture.

00:56:59.320 Um, but as parents, what we do have the power over is how we can show love and delight and

00:57:04.840 warmth towards our children.

00:57:06.140 And that, that cultivation of that relationship, um, is what is going to be their greatest shield

00:57:13.860 in navigating society and these different perils that they're going to have to go through.

00:57:19.920 Um, so the question that I have that I want to put out there to everybody is when is the

00:57:24.300 last time that your child entered the room and you showed delight at their presence?

00:57:29.660 It's a really, really powerful note to end on and something for all of us to think about.

00:57:37.300 Rose, it's been an absolute joy.

00:57:39.080 If people want to find you on Substack, where, what is the best way to do that?

00:57:43.920 Um, so, uh, you can go to the Parents with Inconvenient Truths around Trans, Substack.

00:57:48.820 I, um, hope to have my own Substack someday.

00:57:51.800 I don't yet, but, um, also please support and find out more about, uh, Genspect.

00:57:57.460 Genspect is an amazing organization, um, that supports the PIT, uh, the Parents with Inconvenient

00:58:02.840 Truths around Trans, Substack and efforts.

00:58:05.400 Um, they're doing work at the international level to just really ground us, um, in reality

00:58:11.820 and exploration around these issues of gender.

00:58:15.660 Uh, Rose, thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:58:17.980 We'll go to our locals in a second, but for now, thank you for being here.

00:58:20.860 And thank you guys for watching and listening.

00:58:23.380 We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or our show.

00:58:27.720 All of them go out at 7pm UK time.

00:58:29.840 And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast.

00:58:34.600 Take care and see you soon, guys.

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TRIGGERnometry - February 06, 2023

＂I Transitioned My Child - I Regret It＂

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