TRIGGERnometry - October 27, 2022


"I Was a Violent Criminal, Now I'm Helping Stop Violent Crime"


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 21 minutes

Words per minute

205.55392

Word count

16,788

Sentence count

770

Harmful content

Misogyny

35

sentences flagged

Toxicity

333

sentences flagged

Hate speech

50

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Sakaris McGrath is a former gang member who is now working to get kids out of gangs. In this episode, he talks about his time in prison, how he got into drugs and guns, and how he went on to become a gun smuggler.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 I was manufacturing the firearms and the ammunition, but having my gun I felt safe. 0.99
00:00:05.000 Because if anyone gave me shit, obviously it'd end up coming and I'd end up shooting someone in Birkenhead, 0.99
00:00:09.000 and Lisa would think it was, would have pulled out the weapon. 1.00
00:00:12.000 He said, what are you going to do with that? So I just thought, you know what, fuck it up. 0.99
00:00:15.000 I just woke up and we're in the mood, so I shot him. 1.00
00:00:18.000 But lucky, by God's grace, he never died, because if it would have went through his shit a bit to the left, he would have been dead. 0.99
00:00:24.000 I was in my cell and I was watching a programme on Liverpool, 0.99
00:00:27.000 on a case in Liverpool where a young kid was shot, 0.99
00:00:31.000 and I think that was the turning point in my life when I thought, nah, what the fuck, you know, what the fuck's happening? 0.98
00:00:38.000 I knew about it beforehand, it never bothered me, but when you watch the programme, 1.00
00:00:41.000 and see his parents, and I know a lot of people don't believe me and say, oh no, it's bullshit, 0.96
00:00:46.000 you've got no empathy, so why don't you be bothered about that? But something clicked. 0.99
00:00:51.000 When I watched that programme that was televised, I knew about it, it never fazed me, it didn't bother me.
00:00:55.000 It was just collateral, I used to view that as collateral damage, and then when you watch the programme, 0.90
00:01:00.000 and see the shit his parents went through, and his family, I used to put hundreds and hundreds of weapons on the street. 0.95
00:01:09.000 Probably put over a thousand weapons, I didn't keep calculating how many it was, 0.99
00:01:13.000 but probably put over a thousand weapons on the streets.
00:01:16.000 And even though it weren't my weapons that don't make crime, it's still, you know, imagine what are the crimes? 0.99
00:01:24.000 And I thought, nah, that's not, it's scum, you're peddling evil. 0.97
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00:02:54.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.
00:02:58.000 I'm Constantin Kissin.
00:02:59.000 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:03:05.000 Our brilliant guest today is a former gang member who is now working to get kids out of gangs, Sakaris McGrath.
00:03:10.000 Welcome to Trigonometry.
00:03:11.000 All right, how are you? Okay.
00:03:13.000 It's good to have you on, man.
00:03:14.000 Yeah.
00:03:15.000 Before we get into various stuff we want to talk to you about, obviously crime, prison, stop and search, a bunch of other stuff.
00:03:23.000 But tell everybody what your journey through life has been, because it's unlike pretty much anyone that I've ever met, frankly.
00:03:29.000 It's a bit of a colourful past.
00:03:31.000 At the age of 15 I got involved in petty crime from the age of 21.
00:03:35.000 That escalated to gangs and firearms, weapons.
00:03:39.000 And then I got an eight year prison sentence in 2004 for firearms and a shooting.
00:03:46.000 And then I was released in 2009.
00:03:49.000 I got a gang injunction put on me in 2011 by Meerside Police.
00:03:55.000 Then 2012 I moved to Lancashire to get away from the gang injunction.
00:04:00.000 And they put an operation on me, Lancashire Police, I think in 2014.
00:04:07.000 In 2016 I was arrested by Lancashire Police and I was jailed for eight and a half years later on that year.
00:04:15.000 And then I was released in 2020.
00:04:18.000 So I've served another small few prison sentences for petty crime when I was a kid, but I've served two significant ones.
00:04:28.000 So you were in prison two years ago?
00:04:30.000 Just over, yeah.
00:04:32.000 I was released in July 2020, yeah.
00:04:34.000 Yeah.
00:04:35.000 I was released from open conditions, whereas on my first sentence I was in high security, I was in category A on that one.
00:04:42.000 And coming back to the beginning, you say you got involved in petty crime.
00:04:46.000 How does one get involved in petty crime?
00:04:48.000 How does that happen?
00:04:49.000 I think it was my upbringing, just the area I was living, my peers, the people I was around.
00:04:55.000 You know, everyone I knew back then, everyone I mixed with, every single person, bar one,
00:05:02.000 went on to lead a life of crime, went on to prisons.
00:05:06.000 There was one Jewish guy that I mixed with back then who went on to be successful.
00:05:12.000 But apart from that, everyone went down the route of crime and criminality.
00:05:16.000 Or they ended up getting addicted to drugs, drug addiction or, you know, something detrimental.
00:05:23.000 There's no person that I mixed with other than that one that's made a good life for themselves.
00:05:29.000 And do you think a large part of it is the area that you grew up in?
00:05:32.000 Is it the fact that a lot of these kids maybe don't have dads in the home?
00:05:36.000 Is there something that you could actually say, that is the one thing?
00:05:40.000 Or is it a combination of all of them?
00:05:42.000 I'd say it's a combination of factors, because everyone had a different life.
00:05:44.000 Some people had a dad, some people never.
00:05:46.000 Some people were, parents were skint and he lived in a smelly house, some people never.
00:05:50.000 So it was different, I wouldn't say there was one factor, but I think it was a combination.
00:05:55.000 But I think it was peer influence is a primary factor in leading people astray.
00:06:00.000 Like we started off on motorbikes and then we started, I think I got my first car when I was 11.
00:06:05.000 I could drive when I was 11 years of age.
00:06:07.000 I think the first one was a Chevette, a Vauxhall Chevette.
00:06:10.000 And I was on the streets at 11 years of age.
00:06:13.000 I think the first time I got arrested when I was about 12, driving a motorbike, 13 maybe.
00:06:17.000 But you know, it just goes down spirals and then that was that.
00:06:24.000 But did that not scare you, Sicarius?
00:06:26.000 The fact that you were 13 years old and suddenly there's a police officer there.
00:06:30.000 That would put the fear of God into me as a young kid.
00:06:33.000 The first time I got chased on a moped.
00:06:36.000 There was two of us on it.
00:06:38.000 It was a Vauxhall Cavalier that the police were in, in our field and he chased us.
00:06:42.000 We weren't even a chase because we weren't hardly moving.
00:06:44.000 We were probably doing about 10 miles an hour.
00:06:45.000 So they just come next to us and blocked us off.
00:06:48.000 And they arrested me and took me to the police station and rang my parents.
00:06:51.000 My parents come and got me and that was that.
00:06:54.000 I think I was too young.
00:06:55.000 I weren't like a...
00:06:56.000 The police knew I was just a kid.
00:06:58.000 Even though I was antisocial, I weren't really doing nothing too bad, do you know what I mean?
00:07:03.000 And you say by the age of 21 you'd progressed to gangs and guns at that point?
00:07:09.000 Yeah, firearms.
00:07:10.000 I went to an area down south of Liverpool and bought a load of firearms off of these agents
00:07:18.000 that we knew and then went back to Liverpool.
00:07:20.000 But that was a result of me being bullied by a load of doormen in Liverpool.
00:07:25.000 There was a load of doormen bullying me.
00:07:28.000 They had nightclubs and run doors and that so they were bullying me for money.
00:07:32.000 And in the end I couldn't take no more so I just went and bought a load of firearms,
00:07:35.000 come back and just...
00:07:37.000 That was that.
00:07:38.000 And then from there I just got...
00:07:40.000 I ended up manufacturing and distributing firearms, selling firearms.
00:07:44.000 So I think one thing leads to another but there's always like a gateway offence,
00:07:49.000 there's always a gateway into crime.
00:07:51.000 And mine was petty crime and then the bullying resulted in me getting involved in firearms
00:07:55.000 and gangs for...
00:07:56.000 I think it was primarily in the first instance for my own protection.
00:08:01.000 And then it'd become a habit then, it'd become habitual of behaviour,
00:08:04.000 like carrying a weapon all the time, a firearm all the time.
00:08:07.000 I was...
00:08:08.000 When I got arrested in 2003, there was a firearm next to me bed,
00:08:12.000 a loaded firearm next to me bed.
00:08:14.000 I was arrested in Grange Mountain, Wirral.
00:08:16.000 So it becomes habitual, it becomes normal for me to carry a gun.
00:08:20.000 Sometimes I carry two.
00:08:21.000 I'll just say for, before you ask the question Francis,
00:08:24.000 we have a big American audience and if they're watching this,
00:08:27.000 they're thinking, well guns, you know, we've got guns.
00:08:29.000 But in this country, having firearms, I mean that is a very serious offence.
00:08:33.000 It is 100%.
00:08:34.000 I think it's five year minimum sentence and it is...
00:08:38.000 It's rare. Firearms are common, but they're not as common as knives as such
00:08:45.000 because they're expensive to purchase.
00:08:47.000 They're more difficult to source.
00:08:49.000 Whereas a knife, every kitchen has a knife.
00:08:51.000 But I never used to carry knives, I used to carry guns.
00:08:54.000 And that's what I used to feel comfortable with.
00:08:56.000 I would never have felt comfortable carrying a knife, it weren't for me.
00:08:59.000 But I used to, you know, I used to feel safe carrying a firearm.
00:09:05.000 Sikouris, you use the word bullying.
00:09:08.000 Now, I don't think you mean bullying how a lot of people think about it.
00:09:13.000 Where you get, for instance, a lot of people think bullying is people
00:09:16.000 making nasty comments to them, not being very nice.
00:09:19.000 What do you mean by bullying?
00:09:21.000 Bullying consists of many things, you know what I mean?
00:09:23.000 But bullying can be in the playground.
00:09:25.000 But the bullying I'm referring to was, I think I was about 20 years of age at the time.
00:09:31.000 And these group of men, fully grown men, doormen, 0.56
00:09:35.000 they were both three cars, pulled up to me and took my car off me.
00:09:38.000 Then I went and met them that night, and they kidnapped me,
00:09:41.000 and were trying to chop my thumb off. 0.99
00:09:42.000 It was only a threat to scare me, but they put the shit up me. 0.99
00:09:45.000 I was terrified, I was petrified. 0.99
00:09:47.000 I wouldn't go out the door, I felt suicidal.
00:09:50.000 I went to the police, I remember it was a shoebrook police station, 0.99
00:09:52.000 and the police didn't give a shit. 0.99
00:09:54.000 In other words, they were saying, you deserve what you get. 0.99
00:09:56.000 They never said that, but in their own words, you understand what I'm saying?
00:09:59.000 Because I was a pest, but I was only a petty criminal, very petty criminal.
00:10:04.000 And as a result, there was no one that could help me.
00:10:07.000 So in the end, as a human being, I was at cracking point,
00:10:11.000 and I thought, am I going to defend myself against these people?
00:10:15.000 So I just went and bought a load of guns.
00:10:18.000 But I got different people to throw in the pot,
00:10:22.000 and then I purchased them cheaper, and then charged them a bit extra,
00:10:27.000 and then took my own fuel out of it, do you know what I mean?
00:10:29.000 Because I never had the money to purchase them at the time.
00:10:31.000 So I wangled it in a way that I come out with a few guns.
00:10:34.000 And then from that, we went into manufacturing them.
00:10:36.000 So we went into making them, deactivated them, and would reactivate them,
00:10:41.000 and make the ammunition, and then we'd settle on,
00:10:43.000 and got arrested for that in 2004, I think it was.
00:10:46.000 And I ended up getting eight years jail altogether.
00:10:49.000 And how easy is it to do that, to take to that process?
00:10:53.000 Because you've just made it sound like it's quite simple.
00:10:55.000 Is it simple, or is it actually, does it require quite a bit of talent, know-how, et cetera?
00:11:00.000 It's like saying, it's building a house, simple.
00:11:03.000 To a builder and a bricklayer, it's simple.
00:11:07.000 But to me and you, it's difficult.
00:11:09.000 Whereas manufacturing firearms, and building firearms, and reactivating them,
00:11:13.000 it's simple to someone that knows what they're doing.
00:11:16.000 Just like a mechanic, it's simple to repair the car,
00:11:19.000 but I can't repair the car, if you understand what I'm saying.
00:11:22.000 Back then, I had my own big unit, a big factory.
00:11:25.000 And back then, I think I'd done it for three years, two, three years.
00:11:30.000 It was easy, but I used to enjoy doing it.
00:11:33.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:11:34.000 Sometimes I'd do 10 a day, sometimes I'd do 15 in a day.
00:11:37.000 It depends who we are, they help me on what order they are.
00:11:39.000 But, you know, it become habitual, but it all stemmed from the bullying.
00:11:45.000 I wasn't a full shilling, I was gone in the head.
00:11:48.000 I think the bullying pushed me over the end.
00:11:50.000 It pushed me over the edge,
00:11:51.000 with a combination of other factors, what happened earlier on in my childhood.
00:11:54.000 The bullying was destroyed, I broke the camel.
00:11:58.000 That made me just go, and there was nothing there in my head.
00:12:01.000 I never had no rational thinking.
00:12:03.000 I was deluded, I was gone. 1.00
00:12:05.000 I was hearing voices, I was absolutely, I was fucked. 1.00
00:12:08.000 There was no part of you that was sitting there going, 0.99
00:12:10.000 I'm now manufacturing 15 firearms a day.
00:12:13.000 Sometimes it was 10, it wasn't always 15.
00:12:15.000 You know, I'm just saying on average it was quite a lot.
00:12:17.000 No, what I'm saying, the number is not what I'm getting at.
00:12:20.000 I'm getting at like, I've gone from I'm a petty criminal,
00:12:24.000 to I went and bought a load of guns, I carry a gun, I have a gun by my bed,
00:12:29.000 and I'm making guns and selling them.
00:12:31.000 Like, was that, were you ever present to the scale of like what you were doing?
00:12:35.000 No, I was mixed up in it.
00:12:37.000 My head was gone, I was deluded.
00:12:39.000 But even when I'd be on the toilet, I'd have my gun there, clean on the toilet,
00:12:44.000 and I'd be ejecting the magazine and putting the bullets back in.
00:12:48.000 I was, that's the type of, I never even used to wear gloves.
00:12:50.000 I was that irrational and that reckless.
00:12:52.000 I'd just put the bullets in with my finger.
00:12:54.000 We used to make the ammunition, I used to make the ammunition,
00:12:56.000 we had the press as well.
00:12:58.000 So we'd put the powder in, we'd put the heads on,
00:13:00.000 the primers in the bottom, do you know what I mean?
00:13:02.000 So I was manufacturing the firearms and the ammunition.
00:13:05.000 But having my gun, I felt safe.
00:13:07.000 I'd go anywhere, I'd go near anywhere.
00:13:10.000 I was dating a girl from Birkenhead, Whirl.
00:13:13.000 And back then, the Birkenheaders just want to fight me, 1.00
00:13:16.000 because I was from Liverpool.
00:13:18.000 And I weren't a fighter, so having my gun on me
00:13:21.000 used to make me comfortable to go in wherever I want to go. 0.99
00:13:25.000 Because if anyone give me shit, obviously, 0.99
00:13:27.000 it'd end up coming and I'd end up shooting someone in Birkenhead, 1.00
00:13:29.000 and Lisa, I think it was.
00:13:31.000 I ended up speaking to him afterwards and apologising.
00:13:34.000 Obviously, while I was away, I spoke to him on the phone.
00:13:36.000 I spoke to him on the phone.
00:13:37.000 A guy called Gareth.
00:13:38.000 I don't want to give a second name,
00:13:39.000 but it was a guy called Gareth who I went to jail for.
00:13:42.000 I shot him and I think I went through his shoulder
00:13:45.000 and I had his arm or somewhere in that area. 0.94
00:13:47.000 Look, he never went through his chest,
00:13:49.000 but I went to jail for shooting him.
00:13:51.000 And the girl I was with at the time
00:13:53.000 ended up dating him while I was in jail.
00:13:55.000 So it was a bit of a bizarre one.
00:13:58.000 You know, she stopped coming up on a visit and then one day I rang her
00:14:02.000 and she's in bed with him.
00:14:04.000 And I spoke to him, I said, put him on.
00:14:06.000 I said, look, you know, what's happened?
00:14:08.000 What's that?
00:14:09.000 He confronted me initially.
00:14:10.000 Him and two of his friends confronted me.
00:14:12.000 They stabbed the tyre on my car.
00:14:14.000 And then when I pulled out the weapon,
00:14:18.000 he said, what are you going to do with that? 0.99
00:14:19.000 So I just thought, you know what, fuck it up. 0.99
00:14:21.000 I just woke up and we're in the mood. 1.00
00:14:23.000 So I shot him.
00:14:24.000 But luckily, by God's grace, he never died 0.98
00:14:26.000 because if I would have went through his chest a bit to the left,
00:14:28.000 he would have been dead.
00:14:30.000 So I think it was, you know,
00:14:32.000 it was a blessing in disguise that I got that prison sentence then
00:14:34.000 because if I never went to prison when I did,
00:14:37.000 100% I would have ended up killing someone.
00:14:39.000 Yeah.
00:14:40.000 There was another time when I went to Wade Smith in town
00:14:41.000 in Lapeole City Centre and he had two handguns on me.
00:14:43.000 And, you know, I was wanting to see these doormen.
00:14:46.000 And I wouldn't have thought twice 0.79
00:14:48.000 about pulling the guns out and firing at them. 0.82
00:14:51.000 And I could have hurt, seriously hurt, 0.98
00:14:54.000 or killed innocent people.
00:14:56.000 And, you know, I think back, in retrospect,
00:14:58.000 I think back and think I was,
00:15:01.000 I'm glad that I went to prison when I did.
00:15:04.000 Otherwise, I could have killed someone or multiple people.
00:15:07.000 So, but when you're involved in that,
00:15:09.000 you don't think, you're not thinking straight.
00:15:10.000 Well, I certainly definitely wasn't thinking straight.
00:15:12.000 I weren't thinking rationally.
00:15:14.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:15:15.000 Every day I get up, it was my gun.
00:15:17.000 Where was it?
00:15:18.000 And sometimes the car I'd have,
00:15:20.000 one of the weapons I had was a Beretta.
00:15:23.000 I used to put it in a case and I put the case up the dash.
00:15:26.000 So if the police stopped me,
00:15:27.000 hopefully they wouldn't find it.
00:15:29.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:15:30.000 But it was, I don't know, looking back,
00:15:32.000 it was a bad time in my life.
00:15:34.000 I was, I know I was doing wrong,
00:15:36.000 but I weren't intending to hurt anyone innocent people.
00:15:40.000 It was just unfortunate that the guy,
00:15:43.000 this Gareth guy with his two mates, 0.86
00:15:45.000 he'd been on the piss.
00:15:46.000 He was drunk.
00:15:47.000 He seen me, obviously he didn't like me
00:15:49.000 because I was from Liverpool and saying,
00:15:50.000 get off out of state.
00:15:51.000 He was in Leesow and Will.
00:15:53.000 It was just unfortunate that he said what he said
00:15:56.000 and that was that.
00:15:57.000 And I went over to sign and speak him out of it,
00:15:59.000 just said give it a miss. 0.99
00:16:00.000 And the next thing he's confronted me.
00:16:01.000 So, you know, I responded wrongly.
00:16:03.000 It weren't right what I'd done.
00:16:04.000 I regret what I'd done,
00:16:05.000 but I'm just glad he never did.
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00:16:37.000 You sound, the way you talk about it,
00:16:40.000 as if you're incredibly paranoid.
00:16:43.000 Do you think that's a lot of a reason
00:16:44.000 why we see kids younger and younger,
00:16:46.000 particularly in places like London,
00:16:48.000 carrying knives?
00:16:49.000 It's because they're all terrified.
00:16:51.000 Yeah, but even...
00:16:53.000 I wouldn't say...
00:16:55.000 I weren't scared of death from my enemies.
00:16:58.000 I was more scared of not having nothing.
00:17:02.000 If you've got something.
00:17:03.000 Like when I had a firearm, for example,
00:17:05.000 I'd feel safe.
00:17:07.000 I wouldn't fear nothing.
00:17:08.000 I wouldn't feel death.
00:17:09.000 I wouldn't...
00:17:10.000 I'd fear the police, don't get me wrong,
00:17:11.000 but when you've got that gun,
00:17:13.000 you don't fear death.
00:17:14.000 Even though there's still a risk you can be killed,
00:17:16.000 you don't foresee the consequence.
00:17:18.000 And without that gun, 0.99
00:17:20.000 you're shitting yourself. 0.99
00:17:21.000 So I can imagine applying the same logic 0.99
00:17:24.000 to the kids who are carrying knives.
00:17:26.000 They're obviously...
00:17:27.000 I think a lot of them are scared.
00:17:28.000 If they see a rival or if they see a...
00:17:30.000 Because a lot of them can't fight,
00:17:31.000 I was the same.
00:17:32.000 So they can't fight.
00:17:33.000 So that's why a lot of them carry the weapons.
00:17:36.000 Because if they haven't got that weapon
00:17:37.000 and they come across their enemies,
00:17:38.000 then they're in trouble.
00:17:40.000 So the fear is you're going to be unprepared
00:17:42.000 and unable to defend yourself.
00:17:44.000 Yeah, something along them lines, yeah.
00:17:45.000 That's right.
00:17:46.000 And then there's different methods of protection.
00:17:48.000 Some people aren't affiliated to gangs,
00:17:50.000 but they think these kids are thinking
00:17:53.000 everyone else is carrying a knife.
00:17:55.000 So I want to carry one because they're scared.
00:17:57.000 And then there's the ones who are affiliated to gangs
00:17:59.000 and have got rival gangs.
00:18:00.000 And they think if you haven't got my knife on me
00:18:03.000 or my gun, whatever they're carrying,
00:18:04.000 then they're going to be in trouble
00:18:06.000 if they come across their rivals,
00:18:07.000 if they come across their adversaries.
00:18:09.000 You know what I mean?
00:18:10.000 So I'd say a vast majority
00:18:12.000 carry it for self-protection
00:18:14.000 for whatever reason,
00:18:15.000 because they've got gang rivals
00:18:16.000 or just because they feel scared
00:18:18.000 or vulnerable.
00:18:19.000 There's numerous factors,
00:18:20.000 but a lot of it does bolt out to protection.
00:18:23.000 And how did you get involved in gangs specifically?
00:18:26.000 Were you like a leader of a gang or...?
00:18:28.000 Not initially, no.
00:18:30.000 Initially, I clinged on to a gang
00:18:32.000 that were fighting with the doorman.
00:18:34.000 So I sort of clinged on to them.
00:18:36.000 I was getting in touch with them
00:18:37.000 and then I ended up selling a few of them guns.
00:18:39.000 So they weren't great guns that I was selling. 0.98
00:18:42.000 They were just cheap, shitty guns, 0.96
00:18:44.000 but they were still powerful. 0.99
00:18:46.000 We used to test them on containers and cars
00:18:48.000 and the metal containers on building sites,
00:18:50.000 they were putting holes in them
00:18:51.000 and they were putting holes in car doors.
00:18:53.000 So you can imagine what they're doing to the body.
00:18:55.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:18:56.000 Did you never think about
00:18:58.000 when you were selling these guns on?
00:19:01.000 Obviously, you know,
00:19:02.000 they'll be used for protection.
00:19:03.000 Most of them won't be used.
00:19:04.000 But you used one yourself.
00:19:06.000 Did you not think, hang on, 0.99
00:19:07.000 this could be used to kill someone here? 0.69
00:19:09.000 Nah, I didn't think like that. 0.98
00:19:10.000 Don't get me wrong.
00:19:11.000 There was once or twice when someone went,
00:19:12.000 they wanted a gun to go and do something
00:19:14.000 and I thought, nah, 0.99
00:19:15.000 I don't want to get them fucked up. 0.99
00:19:16.000 And there were occasions when I'd refuse 0.99
00:19:18.000 to sell a gun to someone.
00:19:20.000 If I thought, even though we weren't asked about
00:19:22.000 who was it and what was...
00:19:23.000 If I thought someone was going to be, like,
00:19:26.000 assassinated with a gun, I wouldn't...
00:19:29.000 That was a bit too much.
00:19:30.000 I didn't want to go to that level.
00:19:32.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:19:33.000 Because even though I was reckless,
00:19:34.000 I didn't ever want to kill any of my enemies
00:19:36.000 or these dormers, 0.94
00:19:37.000 I didn't want to kill them. 0.94
00:19:38.000 But I was just reckless.
00:19:39.000 I could have done it through my own recklessness.
00:19:41.000 My intention was, if I see them, 1.00
00:19:43.000 I'm just going to shoot them in the legs 1.00
00:19:44.000 or shoot them in the stomach. 1.00
00:19:45.000 Do you know what I mean? 1.00
00:19:46.000 That one on the lease, 0.85
00:19:47.000 I shot him near the chest area, 0.91
00:19:49.000 but I just woke up, 0.86
00:19:50.000 I weren't thinking straight.
00:19:51.000 So it would have been recklessness
00:19:53.000 more than malice or intent 0.75
00:19:55.000 that I would have ended up killing someone.
00:19:58.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:19:59.000 Yeah.
00:20:00.000 So looking back, it was scary.
00:20:01.000 It was massively scary.
00:20:02.000 And I think the prison,
00:20:03.000 even though my first sentence didn't rehabilitate me,
00:20:06.000 I think it was necessary 100%
00:20:08.000 because I was getting worse and worse. 0.98
00:20:10.000 And the more people you shoot,
00:20:11.000 the more confident you become as an individual, 0.77
00:20:14.000 as a shooter.
00:20:15.000 It becomes more common,
00:20:16.000 a common practice.
00:20:17.000 You know what I mean?
00:20:18.000 It's just like a fighter.
00:20:19.000 The more people you beat up with your fists,
00:20:21.000 the more confident you're going to be
00:20:22.000 and the more willing you're going to be to have a fight.
00:20:24.000 You know, the more you get self-confidence.
00:20:26.000 You know what I mean?
00:20:27.000 And that's always definitely with guns, 100%.
00:20:30.000 I want to get to prison in a second
00:20:32.000 because we really want to talk with you about that.
00:20:33.000 But before we do,
00:20:34.000 just take us there chronologically.
00:20:36.000 So you get involved with this gang
00:20:39.000 because you've been bullied by these doormen.
00:20:41.000 You've got guns.
00:20:42.000 You've sold them guns.
00:20:43.000 How do you then get more involved in the gang?
00:20:47.000 Or do you?
00:20:48.000 Initially, I clung onto the gang.
00:20:50.000 Yeah.
00:20:51.000 And then once I've established myself,
00:20:53.000 then I've ended up going my own way.
00:20:55.000 I've become like a loner.
00:20:56.000 And then I was linking with Asian gangs 1.00
00:20:59.000 and black gangs in the south of the country.
00:21:02.000 And then there was all different gangs coming to me
00:21:05.000 to purchase firearms.
00:21:07.000 So then I was affiliated from just clinging on
00:21:10.000 to one gang in Liverpool.
00:21:12.000 At the time, the biggest gang in the city,
00:21:14.000 they were a serious group of individuals
00:21:17.000 and I clung onto them.
00:21:18.000 I weren't high up in that gang.
00:21:20.000 I was just a cling on
00:21:21.000 because your enemy is my enemy.
00:21:23.000 So we have something in common.
00:21:25.000 So that's why I clung onto them.
00:21:27.000 Because I thought they're fighting against these doormen. 1.00
00:21:29.000 So I need to cling on to them
00:21:30.000 so I'm not on my own.
00:21:31.000 And then once I become more confident
00:21:32.000 and more established in myself,
00:21:34.000 I weren't really asked.
00:21:35.000 I didn't really need them as much.
00:21:37.000 Do you understand what I'm saying?
00:21:38.000 Because then it developed my confidence.
00:21:40.000 So I was confident standing on my own two feet.
00:21:44.000 And you were selling guns to all these other gangs
00:21:46.000 at the same time.
00:21:47.000 Yeah, I was selling guns.
00:21:48.000 The vast majority of people,
00:21:49.000 there was a couple of times when I refused to sell,
00:21:51.000 people fired arms because they told me
00:21:54.000 what they were going to use them for.
00:21:55.000 And I thought, no, I don't want to be involved in that.
00:21:57.000 And I don't want to take, you know,
00:21:59.000 so I said, nah, it's not for me.
00:22:01.000 But the vast majority,
00:22:02.000 if someone had just come to me and asked for a gun,
00:22:04.000 I'd sell them.
00:22:05.000 Or I'd end up getting arrested.
00:22:06.000 The police put an operation on me
00:22:08.000 and they arrested me for manufacturing
00:22:10.000 and selling guns in 2004.
00:22:12.000 Yeah.
00:22:13.000 We'll talk about that in a sec.
00:22:14.000 How much would you be selling these guns for?
00:22:17.000 Back then, the sentences for firearms were low.
00:22:21.000 It weren't five-year minimum.
00:22:22.000 It was like, I know there was people outside clubs
00:22:25.000 that were getting liquid guns and getting two years.
00:22:27.000 You know what I mean?
00:22:28.000 So it was a low sentence for guns then.
00:22:30.000 Back then, I got four-year, three months for a firearm.
00:22:34.000 And that was a big sentence for a gun.
00:22:36.000 That was big.
00:22:37.000 Yeah.
00:22:38.000 And plus it weren't a full shilling.
00:22:39.000 The judge knew it weren't a full shilling.
00:22:40.000 It was the main judge in the local crime court,
00:22:42.000 Henry Globe, who sensed me.
00:22:43.000 And he was very fair to me
00:22:44.000 because he knew I was just a deluded kid
00:22:46.000 who'd went off the rails
00:22:47.000 and he had serious mental health problems.
00:22:49.000 I was bad.
00:22:50.000 A psychiatrist done a report on me
00:22:52.000 and I weren't there.
00:22:53.000 You know what I mean?
00:22:54.000 I was absolutely gone on the edge.
00:22:55.000 So, yeah, I got a big sentence for the firearms.
00:22:59.000 But at the time, if I was doing ten,
00:23:02.000 I'd do ten for three grand.
00:23:04.000 For example, sort of wake off three hundred.
00:23:05.000 Ten firearms for three grand?
00:23:07.000 Yeah, for three thousand pounds.
00:23:09.000 So, three hundred quid?
00:23:10.000 Yeah.
00:23:11.000 For one firearm?
00:23:12.000 Yeah, but that was in bulk.
00:23:13.000 Yeah.
00:23:14.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:23:15.000 Whereas, these days, the price has gone right up.
00:23:16.000 Yeah.
00:23:17.000 Whereas back then, when it was expensive,
00:23:18.000 you could get an half decent handgun back then
00:23:20.000 for like a grand, twelve hundred quid, fifteen hundred quid max.
00:23:24.000 Whereas now, the prices are like three grand,
00:23:26.000 two and a half grand, three grand, things like that.
00:23:28.000 Even years ago, the price went right up.
00:23:31.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:23:32.000 But back then, most of the ones I was doing were reactivated ones.
00:23:36.000 The vast majority of guns I put on the street and sold were all reactivated.
00:23:40.000 So, they were pennies to buy.
00:23:42.000 We were buying them for like sixty quid, eighty quid, ninety quid.
00:23:46.000 It'd take me half an hour to reactivate one.
00:23:49.000 We'd change the barrel and make the ammunition.
00:23:52.000 That was it.
00:23:53.000 It was as simple as that.
00:23:54.000 Wow.
00:23:55.000 And so, you were rapidly turning over all that money.
00:23:57.000 So, you were making quite a lot of money at the time then.
00:23:59.000 I was making quite a lot of money, yeah.
00:24:01.000 But I was spending it.
00:24:03.000 As it was, you know, we had the rents on the units and the factories, what we had. 0.99
00:24:09.000 I had my house rent and I was buying stupid little motorbikes. 0.99
00:24:13.000 I don't know. 0.98
00:24:14.000 I used to spend a lot of money on food eating out all the time.
00:24:18.000 A man after your own car. 0.99
00:24:19.000 Yeah, exactly. 1.00
00:24:20.000 When he was talking about the price of guns, I'm like, fuck me. 1.00
00:24:22.000 Inflation is affecting everything. 1.00
00:24:24.000 But Sikaris, so you were going through that and you had these psychological problems.
00:24:30.000 So, would you mind just talking about that a little bit?
00:24:33.000 How bad were things for you?
00:24:34.000 You said you were hearing voices.
00:24:36.000 Was that...
00:24:37.000 Bad.
00:24:38.000 I was bad on a scale of one to ten.
00:24:40.000 I think I was a nine.
00:24:41.000 But the judge recognised that in censoring me.
00:24:44.000 The two guys who got nicked with me, they were older.
00:24:46.000 They were in the 50s and stuff like that.
00:24:48.000 They got nicked with about, I might be wrong on the number here, but I'm sure they got nicked
00:24:52.000 combined total.
00:24:53.000 They got nicked with about 30 firearms roughly.
00:24:55.000 Activated, deactivated, whatever.
00:24:57.000 30 firearms and paraphernalia and so on.
00:24:59.000 They got five years and five and a half years.
00:25:02.000 I was a kid and got four years, three months.
00:25:04.000 Yeah.
00:25:05.000 In comparison, I got a harsher sentence than them.
00:25:09.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:25:10.000 I think the judge who sent me on the guns was David Bolton, but he slammed me more than
00:25:14.000 them for one gun and for manufacturing.
00:25:17.000 I got four free.
00:25:18.000 And I was deemed to be low down the rank.
00:25:20.000 I was just a kid with bad mental health problems.
00:25:22.000 And they were two adult men who were ordering from America.
00:25:25.000 They were on a bigger scale.
00:25:27.000 And they only got around the same sentence as me.
00:25:30.000 So you go to prison and the vast majority of people who watch our show and listen to
00:25:35.000 our show have no idea what prison is like.
00:25:38.000 Tell us, what's it like, that journey, your first day?
00:25:42.000 Well, for me, because I upset that many people.
00:25:45.000 But this is in 2004 I went to prison.
00:25:47.000 The first prison I went to was Walton in 2004 when I got nicked on these gun charges.
00:25:52.000 When I went to prison, I had every day was a nightmare in Walton prison because I upset
00:25:58.000 that many people.
00:25:59.000 And because it was all drug dealers and criminals that I upset.
00:26:03.000 I never upset, you know, my average show public.
00:26:05.000 It was drug dealers, criminals and, you know, I upset that many people.
00:26:09.000 How do you mean when you say you upset them?
00:26:10.000 How did you upset them?
00:26:11.000 Harmed them, robbed them.
00:26:14.000 We used to extort drug dealers, took the watches.
00:26:16.000 One of the habits I used to have, well, I wouldn't say it was an habit, but we used to rob drug dealers' watches.
00:26:21.000 So I'd wait by their house with a gun.
00:26:23.000 When they pull up, I'd creep up the car with a gun to them and take the watch, like the Rolex
00:26:28.000 or whatever watch they had.
00:26:29.000 You know what I mean?
00:26:30.000 So I was robbing watches off drug dealers.
00:26:32.000 You're Omar Little from The Wire, basically.
00:26:34.000 What's that?
00:26:35.000 You haven't seen The Wire?
00:26:37.000 The Wire?
00:26:38.000 You'd enjoy it.
00:26:39.000 Yeah.
00:26:40.000 Or you might enjoy it.
00:26:41.000 OK.
00:26:42.000 So you're robbing drug dealers for their watches.
00:26:44.000 Correct.
00:26:45.000 I'm for drugs.
00:26:46.000 That's kind of what happens, slightly spoiler, to this dude I'm talking about in the TV series.
00:26:50.000 So you're robbing drug dealers, you're pissing them off, obviously, and then you go to prison
00:26:55.000 and they're all there.
00:26:57.000 No, not that they're all there.
00:26:59.000 They were still outside, but they were putting hits on me from outside.
00:27:02.000 Right.
00:27:03.000 They were ringing people in the prison.
00:27:04.000 You had mobile phones back then in 2004.
00:27:06.000 And they paid a screw.
00:27:08.000 I don't know if I can say his name on here.
00:27:10.000 A prison officer, should I say.
00:27:11.000 Yeah.
00:27:12.000 Officer Peters.
00:27:13.000 He attacked me.
00:27:14.000 And there was an investigation.
00:27:15.000 So he was paid or influenced by these gangs.
00:27:17.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:27:18.000 Because he got me in the office and was saying...
00:27:19.000 So just to be clear, drug dealers paid a prison officer to attack a criminal like you in prison.
00:27:25.000 Correct.
00:27:26.000 When you say attack, what did he do?
00:27:28.000 Well, he butted me and he was saying, there's no guns in here. 0.98
00:27:31.000 You called me a shitbag and whatever. 0.97
00:27:33.000 Right. 0.97
00:27:34.000 But there was an investigation into it.
00:27:35.000 And nothing ever come.
00:27:36.000 The investigation was never concluded.
00:27:38.000 But he made me life-held Peters.
00:27:41.000 And another time, they opened my door on the landing.
00:27:44.000 About half-six in the morning.
00:27:46.000 Someone coming home with boiling water.
00:27:49.000 But the officer turned a blind eye to it.
00:27:51.000 I don't know what officer that was.
00:27:52.000 I don't know if it was Peters or I don't know.
00:27:54.000 Or, you know, there was hits getting put on my left, right and centre.
00:27:58.000 Because I was in prison, I was vulnerable.
00:28:00.000 But I always swore when I get out, I'm confused.
00:28:02.000 And when I got out, I did go for them and I made their lives.
00:28:05.000 Well, not every one of them, but I got a lot of them back.
00:28:08.000 You know what I mean?
00:28:09.000 A lot of them were from Whittle.
00:28:11.000 And when I got out of that sentence, I got a lot of them back.
00:28:16.000 You know what I mean?
00:28:17.000 So, I made their lives difficult.
00:28:19.000 I'm not saying it was right what I'd done, but I was just full of hatred and anger.
00:28:23.000 And I thought, nah, I'm coming for you.
00:28:25.000 I never done nothing very bad.
00:28:26.000 A lot of them, I just took money off and got compensated for what they'd done.
00:28:30.000 But, you know, it is what it is.
00:28:32.000 It's water over duck's back.
00:28:33.000 It's done.
00:28:34.000 People who done me wrong, I forgive them.
00:28:35.000 And half of them are probably dead anyway.
00:28:37.000 In jail, whatever.
00:28:38.000 I don't know.
00:28:39.000 I don't know what they're up to, but that was the past.
00:28:42.000 Wow.
00:28:43.000 This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
00:28:47.000 Hey, Konstantin.
00:28:48.000 Do you want better mental health?
00:28:51.000 I'm from Russia.
00:28:52.000 We don't have mental health.
00:28:53.000 So, how do you deal with mental health?
00:28:55.000 You drink vodka, then go out and wrestle bear.
00:28:58.000 If you live, you feel better.
00:29:00.000 If you die, you're not real man.
00:29:02.000 What about the bear's feelings?
00:29:04.000 It's Russian bear.
00:29:05.000 It has no feelings.
00:29:07.000 People don't always realize that physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and
00:29:12.000 even digestive issues can be indicators of stress.
00:29:15.000 And let's not forget about doom scrolling.
00:29:17.000 Not sleeping enough.
00:29:19.000 Sleeping too much.
00:29:20.000 Undereating and overeating.
00:29:22.000 Sleeping too much.
00:29:24.000 Undereating.
00:29:25.000 This is Western disease. 0.98
00:29:26.000 Therapy has really helped me in my life to concentrate and focus.
00:29:31.000 It's really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about the tricky issues
00:29:36.000 that you're struggling to deal with.
00:29:38.000 Therapy has played a really important role in helping me to deal with my ADHD and become
00:29:44.000 better in all areas of my life.
00:29:46.000 Why is he telling them how weak he is?
00:29:49.000 Drink vodka, feel better.
00:29:51.000 BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions
00:29:58.000 with your therapist.
00:29:59.000 So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to.
00:30:03.000 Trigonometry fans get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com forward slash trigger,
00:30:09.000 especially if they're not real men.
00:30:11.000 That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash trigger.
00:30:18.000 Did you not see it as you putting yourself in real danger that you're going to not only
00:30:25.000 mugging people but mugging drug dealers?
00:30:27.000 You must have known that at some point there was going to be retribution for that.
00:30:31.000 Ah, because you know when you've got firearms you feel invincible.
00:30:33.000 That's what, like, when I didn't have nothing, I feared even getting a slap.
00:30:39.000 Do you understand what I'm saying?
00:30:41.000 But when you've got that firearm, I'm speaking like two decades ago, do you know what I mean?
00:30:46.000 So 2001, 2002, going back then, people didn't really carry firearms.
00:30:50.000 Very, very rare.
00:30:52.000 And once you had that gun, it makes you feel invisible.
00:30:57.000 It makes you feel like you've got a cloak of invincibility around you.
00:31:00.000 Like no one can harm you, no one can do nothing.
00:31:02.000 And because most of the vast, vast, 99.99% of my enemies didn't carry guns, I had the upper hand.
00:31:08.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:31:09.000 So there was, I used to go on, I was, back then I was 10 stone, 10 half stone with no teeth.
00:31:14.000 And I went to meet these, something's happened in Whittle.
00:31:18.000 I've, I've, I've sterilized some fella, this drug dealer.
00:31:22.000 And he's went to these big steadheads, these big juiceheads.
00:31:25.000 They were like 23 stone plus, two brothers, um, called Sean and Ben from, from Birkenhead.
00:31:32.000 And, uh, I've ended up going on a meet with them by this cafe off Laird Street, I think it was called, Laird Street in Whittle.
00:31:38.000 And I, I pulled up, I, I was, I was in some stolen car.
00:31:42.000 And I had a handgun down my waistband and I pulled up.
00:31:46.000 I think it, I was like 10 stone, 10 half stone.
00:31:49.000 Pair of shorts on with two pieces of noodle legs, like my legs were like noodles.
00:31:53.000 Pair of white two-striped socks on, missing teeth and a vest. 0.93
00:31:56.000 Uh, I look like a, I look like a drug addict. 0.70
00:31:58.000 Yeah. 0.98
00:31:59.000 This 10 stone little snotty-nosed kid getting out of a car to two big 23 stone men.
00:32:03.000 And I just went straight up them.
00:32:05.000 Or, and, and it's put them on the back foot. 0.99
00:32:07.000 I had a gun on me so they would have done it and I would have shot both of them. 0.97
00:32:10.000 Well, it's put them on the back foot straight away. 0.99
00:32:12.000 Imagine you being 23 stone. 0.99
00:32:14.000 You and your brother two years are absolute monsters. 0.98
00:32:17.000 Um, everyone was shit scared them over there because they can fight, they were big, they were powerful, strong. 0.99
00:32:21.000 And then some little 10 stone, 10 stone scruffy kid pulls up and just flies right over to you. 0.99
00:32:27.000 It puts them back.
00:32:28.000 It was the element of surprise. 1.00
00:32:29.000 They must have thought, who the fuck is this 10 stone crackhead coming up and putting them. 0.99
00:32:35.000 I wasn't horrible to them. 1.00
00:32:36.000 I just said, you know, what?
00:32:37.000 And that was that.
00:32:38.000 It was, it was put to bed.
00:32:39.000 But I'm glad they never said that anyway, because I would have shopped over them.
00:32:43.000 But that's the type of character I'd become.
00:32:45.000 I had no fear when he had a gun on me.
00:32:46.000 I didn't care who you was, what you was.
00:32:48.000 I didn't come and meet you with my mates.
00:32:49.000 I'd come on my own.
00:32:50.000 Just with my gun.
00:32:51.000 And that's all I needed.
00:32:52.000 So I can understand why kids carry weapons because it gives them that sense of security.
00:32:57.000 Yeah.
00:32:58.000 I'm not justifying it by any reason.
00:32:59.000 No, no, no, no, no.
00:33:00.000 I'm giving you the reasoning behind it based upon my past understanding.
00:33:04.000 Yeah.
00:33:05.000 Well, that's the reason we wanted to have you on because you're someone who's lived that life,
00:33:08.000 but you've moved on and we'll talk about the way you've moved on in a bit.
00:33:11.000 But you get locked up, right?
00:33:13.000 2004, yeah.
00:33:14.000 2004.
00:33:15.000 Is that good for you?
00:33:16.000 Does that help?
00:33:17.000 Well, in Walton, I had a life of hell.
00:33:20.000 But when I went to all cores, I was all right after then.
00:33:23.000 And then from all cores, I ended up in high security.
00:33:27.000 I went to the Long Latin.
00:33:28.000 And that sentence, it never rehabilitated me, but it done me well.
00:33:35.000 Because when I got out after that sentence in 2009, I took a backseat then.
00:33:39.000 I went front line.
00:33:40.000 I went flying around with guns all the time on me.
00:33:43.000 I took a backseat.
00:33:44.000 That sentence did knock me back a bit.
00:33:46.000 So I went more organized, more backseat type.
00:33:49.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:33:50.000 Okay.
00:33:51.000 And then what happens from there?
00:33:53.000 2009, I was still involved in gangs and criminality.
00:33:56.000 To a merge side.
00:33:58.000 And I was linking with gangs in London and across the country. 0.95
00:34:01.000 Most of them were Asian gangs and black gangs.
00:34:04.000 And then 2011, they put a gang injunction on my merge side police.
00:34:09.000 So eventually I approached them and said, look, if I move out of merge side, will you ease something?
00:34:14.000 I couldn't be with more than three people at once.
00:34:16.000 I weren't allowed with more than three people.
00:34:18.000 I'd come out of my house in Anfield and the police would be videoing me with video cameras.
00:34:22.000 Not covertly.
00:34:23.000 I mean overtly.
00:34:24.000 There was a big van there.
00:34:26.000 And they followed me with a video camera when I was walking my dogs. 1.00
00:34:29.000 They were saying, fuck off. 1.00
00:34:30.000 And then I went to the ASDA. 1.00
00:34:32.000 And then in the ASDA, they followed me everywhere.
00:34:34.000 That's how, it was a disruption tactic.
00:34:36.000 Right.
00:34:37.000 And you know, it was effective.
00:34:39.000 Did they stop me committing crime?
00:34:40.000 Probably not.
00:34:41.000 But combined with what they were doing.
00:34:43.000 And then they put the gang injunction on me.
00:34:45.000 That got rid of me out of the pool.
00:34:46.000 Even though it never rehabilitated me, it moved the problem out of the pool.
00:34:52.000 And then I went to Lancashire then.
00:34:53.000 But when I went to Lancashire, I'd become more business-minded.
00:34:58.000 I set up businesses, companies, and I was still involved in organised crime.
00:35:02.000 But it was nowhere near on the level of what I was doing.
00:35:05.000 It wasn't firearm related.
00:35:07.000 There was more protection rackets, extortion, things like that.
00:35:13.000 And who would you be targeting with the protection rackets and the extortion?
00:35:17.000 Wealthy drug dealers.
00:35:21.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:35:22.000 But they weren't necessarily from Lancashire.
00:35:24.000 But I had a security company up there.
00:35:28.000 We used to get a lot of legit work.
00:35:30.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:35:31.000 We used to do mediation as well.
00:35:32.000 So two gangs were fighting.
00:35:34.000 Two drug dealing gangs.
00:35:36.000 We had to mediate and find a middle ground.
00:35:38.000 So on one of the mediations, I think I got paid 10 grand.
00:35:43.000 Some of the others were 5 grand.
00:35:45.000 But I was always skint and never had money.
00:35:47.000 Because my outgoings were too big.
00:35:48.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:35:49.000 So after that, the Lancashire police put an operation on me.
00:35:53.000 And they ended up getting eight and a half years.
00:35:55.000 For what?
00:35:56.000 A brothel, running a brothel. 1.00
00:35:59.000 And there was a blackmail where they tried to recover 120,000 pounds.
00:36:05.000 Someone lent someone.
00:36:06.000 My co-defendant lent someone 120,000 pounds.
00:36:09.000 They were all dodgy.
00:36:10.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:36:11.000 But they come to court and make out like they're legit.
00:36:13.000 And I'm not criticising them because, you know, I don't know.
00:36:18.000 Because you were blackmailing them.
00:36:19.000 Yeah.
00:36:20.000 Right.
00:36:21.000 I used inappropriate measures to try and recover the money.
00:36:25.000 Some of the stuff I got accused of, I honestly never done.
00:36:28.000 Like, I got accused of breaking windows and I never broke a window.
00:36:31.000 That was my co-dean and all that. 0.99
00:36:33.000 But I got dragged into his crap. 0.99
00:36:35.000 And because the police wanted me that much, they were willing to use any means to get me. 0.99
00:36:39.000 But a lot of the things, the vast, vast majority of the stuff I got accused of.
00:36:43.000 And I generally never done it.
00:36:45.000 But do I regret it?
00:36:47.000 No, because I needed that sentence.
00:36:49.000 So that sentence done me good.
00:36:50.000 Again.
00:36:51.000 So the sentence in 2016, even though I went to prison for things I'd never done.
00:36:57.000 I think I got six acquittals and I got one guilty.
00:37:00.000 The brothel, yeah.
00:37:01.000 I plead the guilt of that.
00:37:02.000 But the blackmail, most of the stuff I was accused of.
00:37:05.000 It was my co-dean was doing that.
00:37:07.000 And why was the second prison sentence, the one that transformed you, the one that rehabilitated you or helped to rehabilitate you?
00:37:14.000 I was in my cell and I was watching a programme on Liverpool, on a case in Liverpool where a young kid was shot. 0.96
00:37:20.000 And I think that was the turning point in my life when I thought, nah, what the fuck's happened? 0.97
00:37:27.000 It was, I think it was, I knew about it beforehand. 0.97
00:37:31.000 It never bothered me.
00:37:32.000 But when you watch the programme and see his parents and, I know a lot of people don't believe me and say, 0.99
00:37:37.000 oh no, it's bullshit. 0.98
00:37:39.000 You've got no empty, so why would you be bothered about that? 0.99
00:37:41.000 But something clicked. 0.97
00:37:43.000 And seeing his parents and you think, nah, the shit they went through, it was, that was my turning point. 0.99
00:37:49.000 You're talking about, is it Rhys? 0.99
00:37:51.000 Yeah.
00:37:52.000 I don't remember his surname.
00:37:53.000 Rhys.
00:37:54.000 Rhys Jones.
00:37:55.000 Rhys Jones, yeah.
00:37:56.000 Rhys Jones.
00:37:57.000 He's got seven years old.
00:37:58.000 And he wasn't involved in anything.
00:37:59.000 He just got shocked.
00:38:00.000 He wasn't involved in nothing.
00:38:01.000 But when I watched that programme that was televised, I knew about it.
00:38:04.000 It never fazed me.
00:38:05.000 It didn't bother me.
00:38:06.000 It was just collateral.
00:38:07.000 I used to view that as collateral damage. 0.99
00:38:09.000 But when you watch the programme and see the shit his parents went through and his 0.98
00:38:15.000 family and you think, I used to put, even though it was years and years before, I used 0.99
00:38:20.000 to put hundreds and hundreds of weapons on the street.
00:38:25.000 Probably put over a thousand weapons.
00:38:26.620 I didn't keep calculating how many it was,
00:38:28.620 but probably put over a thousand weapons on the streets.
00:38:32.060 And even though it weren't my weapons that done that crime,
00:38:36.660 it's still, you know, imagine what are the crimes? 1.00
00:38:39.720 And I thought, no, that's not, it's scum. 1.00
00:38:41.860 You're peddling evil. 1.00
00:38:44.280 You know what I mean?
00:38:44.840 Same as when people deal heroin.
00:38:46.460 They're just peddling evil on the streets.
00:38:48.220 And that's what I've done for years,
00:38:50.560 from 2001 up until me arresting 2004. 0.99
00:38:53.080 And you're putting that much misery and shit on the streets. 0.99
00:38:56.920 You don't know who your victims are going to be. 0.99
00:38:59.240 You know what I mean?
00:38:59.560 Because whoever's buying the guns,
00:39:00.640 they don't tell you what they're using them for.
00:39:02.500 Because if they did, I wouldn't have sold them.
00:39:04.380 I wouldn't have sold them.
00:39:05.600 So they just buy them for whatever reason.
00:39:07.660 And imagine how many people have got harmed and hurt
00:39:11.360 as a result of me doing that.
00:39:14.200 And hopefully it just clicks.
00:39:15.540 And from that day, I just, I changed from that day.
00:39:19.060 Not straight away, but my change was gradual.
00:39:21.340 And it built upon that.
00:39:22.220 And it was reinforced by charities engaging with me.
00:39:25.360 Whereas when I lifted that charity,
00:39:27.080 Rhys Jones' family,
00:39:28.500 it was a charity connected to them.
00:39:30.620 They haven't replied that yet,
00:39:32.040 but they sent it to someone else.
00:39:33.820 And then they've responded.
00:39:36.020 And that gave me some motivation.
00:39:38.160 Do you know what I mean?
00:39:38.560 And then Mothers Against Guns responded to me
00:39:42.040 when I lifted them.
00:39:42.820 And that gave me motivation to continue on that path.
00:39:46.080 Because they were acknowledging me.
00:39:47.760 They weren't saying, 1.00
00:39:48.380 oh, no, you're a piece of shit. 1.00
00:39:49.940 The misery, of course, we don't want to know you. 1.00
00:39:51.520 Or we don't want to engage with you.
00:39:52.980 They were acknowledging me.
00:39:53.960 And even though I never worked with them when I got out,
00:39:55.980 I had to meet with one or two of them.
00:39:57.220 It's still, at that time,
00:39:58.680 it gave me that inspiration to push on,
00:40:02.160 on the right path, you know what I mean?
00:40:03.360 But if they never ripped back to me,
00:40:04.560 then who knows what path I would have took upon release.
00:40:07.780 But that gave me my inspiration and my path to go down.
00:40:10.320 So, what do you say to a kid?
00:40:12.440 Because, you know, I'm listening to you
00:40:14.440 and I'm remembering me at 17 or 18 or whatever.
00:40:17.400 And you're talking about, well, you get a knife or a gun
00:40:21.080 and you feel powerful.
00:40:22.420 And every boy wants to feel powerful
00:40:24.400 and able to defend themselves when they're 17, right?
00:40:28.160 You've got money. 0.99
00:40:29.780 You know, you don't have to take shit from anyone. 0.98
00:40:31.900 I wouldn't say you've got money 0.99
00:40:32.760 because I was always skint.
00:40:33.920 Right.
00:40:34.480 I was earning good money sometimes,
00:40:36.260 but I was always skint.
00:40:36.980 I never had money.
00:40:37.740 Yeah.
00:40:38.340 I couldn't pull five grand out.
00:40:39.720 I couldn't pull ten grand out.
00:40:40.760 I was skint.
00:40:40.980 But that's what some kids think, right?
00:40:42.340 You're going to have loads of money.
00:40:43.160 Yeah, obviously, that's what they think.
00:40:44.340 But I've never met a rich gang member.
00:40:46.540 Really?
00:40:47.120 Never.
00:40:47.500 Not once I've ever met a wealthy gang member.
00:40:50.380 Because whilst,
00:40:52.240 I know many wealthy drug dealers,
00:40:54.540 you know, and wealthy criminals,
00:40:56.080 but when you're gangbanging,
00:40:57.920 shooting at each other on the street,
00:40:59.120 you can't make money.
00:41:00.500 The police are all over you.
00:41:01.640 You're attracting attention.
00:41:02.640 And that's why a lot of drug dealers
00:41:03.740 who are doing well
00:41:04.400 don't like the attention.
00:41:05.820 They don't like the rigmarole
00:41:06.680 and the drama.
00:41:07.800 So they don't do all that.
00:41:09.320 All the big OCGs,
00:41:11.100 the vast majority,
00:41:12.660 don't get me wrong,
00:41:13.320 they might get someone shopper, 0.61
00:41:14.280 be on the sly,
00:41:15.000 or they pay to get it done,
00:41:16.460 for example.
00:41:17.500 They're not running around gangbanging.
00:41:19.060 They're not carrying firearms
00:41:20.040 gangbanging on the streets of Liverpool
00:41:21.320 or the streets of whatever city
00:41:24.000 because they're focused on making money.
00:41:26.440 They're more organised,
00:41:27.620 more better structured,
00:41:28.500 where the gangbangers,
00:41:30.340 they're the ones carrying the knives
00:41:31.520 and carrying the guns
00:41:32.280 and they're the ones
00:41:33.260 that never make money. 0.96
00:41:34.640 Don't get me wrong,
00:41:35.300 they might have a county line
00:41:36.320 and they're my grand a day,
00:41:38.060 but it doesn't last.
00:41:39.880 And they've got it on the show for it.
00:41:40.820 They'll go out and buy
00:41:41.360 a £1,000 coat
00:41:43.220 or £600 shoes
00:41:45.420 and they've got a girlfriend,
00:41:46.640 their own,
00:41:47.320 who doesn't work
00:41:48.080 and she's high maintenance 1.00
00:41:49.660 because she's gone for that type of boy,
00:41:51.660 that type of lad.
00:41:52.860 So he's financing her,
00:41:54.100 he's financing him.
00:41:54.960 They're eating out all the time.
00:41:56.280 They're spending money, 1.00
00:41:57.220 stupid watches 1.00
00:41:57.780 and they're going 30-grit 1.00
00:42:00.440 and going to clubs,
00:42:02.200 getting champagne.
00:42:02.980 So they're always skinned. 0.99
00:42:05.040 They're only low-key drug dealers.
00:42:06.860 You don't really get many gangbangers
00:42:08.100 that are high up
00:42:09.840 and that have got a high net worth.
00:42:12.360 That makes sense.
00:42:13.240 But what about the other stuff?
00:42:14.620 You know,
00:42:15.340 I want to be powerful,
00:42:17.080 I want to defend myself.
00:42:18.220 What do you say to kids like that?
00:42:19.940 What do you mean to talk them out of it?
00:42:21.120 Yeah.
00:42:21.600 Because that's one of the things
00:42:23.200 you work on now, right?
00:42:23.940 As I say,
00:42:25.700 professionals,
00:42:27.600 all these youth workers
00:42:30.060 they think I'm too controversial.
00:42:33.360 But my argument
00:42:34.280 to every professional
00:42:35.200 and every youth worker,
00:42:36.520 your approach isn't working.
00:42:38.380 So I'm probably
00:42:38.980 the most controversial
00:42:39.800 reformist there is.
00:42:42.980 Do you know what I mean?
00:42:43.340 Because I speak to them like,
00:42:45.440 I was at a centre once
00:42:46.500 and I called one of the kids 1.00
00:42:47.400 a little bastard. 1.00
00:42:48.820 Do you know what I mean? 1.00
00:42:49.300 And I got frowned upon
00:42:50.380 and all the youth workers were like,
00:42:51.280 oh, we don't want your back,
00:42:52.000 we don't want your back.
00:42:52.560 But their approach ain't working
00:42:54.820 and I told them that.
00:42:55.760 I said,
00:42:55.940 your approach ain't working
00:42:56.720 and that same kid
00:42:57.360 they were called 0.99
00:42:57.700 the little bastard. 0.99
00:42:59.360 He's asked me ever since, 1.00
00:43:00.460 I want to work with him,
00:43:01.160 I want to work with him,
00:43:02.320 I want to work with him
00:43:03.120 because he was attached to me,
00:43:05.600 he wanted to work with me,
00:43:06.400 he wanted to engage with me.
00:43:07.560 He doesn't want to,
00:43:08.180 he's had a PRU,
00:43:09.580 Alternative Provisions,
00:43:10.480 a pupil referral unit.
00:43:11.840 So he's been expelled from school.
00:43:13.740 No one can manage this kid,
00:43:15.000 no one can control him,
00:43:16.600 but he wants to work with me
00:43:17.580 even though I called him 0.99
00:43:18.500 a little bastard. 1.00
00:43:19.080 But these youth workers, 1.00
00:43:19.920 these two good youth workers
00:43:21.500 who haven't got a clue
00:43:22.140 they've got no practical experience.
00:43:23.780 Everything they've learnt
00:43:24.740 is from a book,
00:43:26.540 uni, college, whatever.
00:43:28.700 And they can't control these kids.
00:43:30.320 They haven't got,
00:43:30.720 they don't speak the same language.
00:43:32.140 It's just like an Arab and a Jew. 0.99
00:43:33.440 One speaks Arabic,
00:43:34.200 one speaks Hebrew.
00:43:35.460 You're not going to get
00:43:36.160 constructive dialogue
00:43:37.220 from them.
00:43:39.480 Do you know what I mean?
00:43:40.760 And so you need
00:43:41.580 a middle person
00:43:42.400 who can translate.
00:43:43.880 Do you understand
00:43:44.220 what I'm saying?
00:43:44.600 So these youth workers...
00:43:47.200 So what are you saying?
00:43:48.200 What's the approach
00:43:49.040 that these kids need
00:43:49.940 in your opinion?
00:43:51.040 It depends on the kids.
00:43:52.440 A black kid in London 0.96
00:43:54.500 would be different 0.99
00:43:55.660 to reforming a white kid 0.91
00:43:56.700 in Liverpool.
00:43:57.460 They've got different ideology.
00:43:59.480 I know the goals
00:44:00.720 and the targets
00:44:01.400 are the same,
00:44:02.000 financial and power
00:44:03.500 and guns
00:44:04.020 and what was status.
00:44:06.580 That might be similar
00:44:07.660 or the same,
00:44:08.880 but the ideology
00:44:09.660 in the way
00:44:11.280 they speak
00:44:12.240 it's different.
00:44:14.820 So the method
00:44:15.360 that will work
00:44:15.960 on a white kid
00:44:16.600 in Liverpool
00:44:17.040 won't necessarily work 0.97
00:44:18.800 on a black kid 0.95
00:44:19.760 in Peckham
00:44:20.440 or Brixton,
00:44:21.580 for example.
00:44:22.180 So it depends
00:44:23.460 who you're reforming
00:44:24.340 and it depends
00:44:24.960 on the approach
00:44:25.480 you're going to take.
00:44:26.620 But every kid
00:44:27.920 I've engaged with,
00:44:29.060 every young person
00:44:29.700 I've engaged with
00:44:30.360 has always been
00:44:31.460 100% receptive.
00:44:33.420 And my approach,
00:44:36.040 my strategy,
00:44:37.220 I've tested that
00:44:38.060 over the past,
00:44:38.700 I'd say,
00:44:39.060 the past 12 months
00:44:39.860 approximately.
00:44:41.120 It's been tested
00:44:41.660 on it over
00:44:42.060 100 kids.
00:44:43.100 When I go to youth centres
00:44:43.980 there'll be like
00:44:44.520 30 kids plus
00:44:45.600 and every single time
00:44:47.240 my approach
00:44:47.880 and the way
00:44:48.640 I come across
00:44:49.280 it's been 100% receptive.
00:44:52.660 And so what tactics
00:44:54.160 do you use
00:44:54.820 the first time
00:44:55.420 you meet them?
00:44:56.020 What do you do?
00:44:57.340 How do you speak to them?
00:44:58.440 I know it's different
00:44:59.180 depending on the kid.
00:45:00.400 Obviously it's got to be
00:45:00.980 an icebreaker
00:45:01.440 but there was one kid
00:45:03.640 at a youth centre
00:45:04.280 at a different youth centre
00:45:06.400 I went to.
00:45:07.260 He was a bar.
00:45:09.080 He was young.
00:45:10.140 He must have been
00:45:10.460 12, 13.
00:45:11.220 He was one of the worst
00:45:11.920 kids there
00:45:12.320 and he pointed him out
00:45:14.600 and said he was
00:45:14.920 the worst one
00:45:15.460 and he started 1.00
00:45:17.280 giving me shit 0.99
00:45:17.860 calling me whatever 1.00
00:45:19.680 he was saying. 1.00
00:45:21.220 And I've given him shit back 0.99
00:45:22.340 and said, 1.00
00:45:22.620 you fucking little prick 1.00
00:45:23.380 I'll put you in that 1.00
00:45:24.080 wheelie bin a minute.
00:45:24.880 So I've come across
00:45:26.660 I've used
00:45:28.040 instrumental aggression
00:45:28.980 you'll understand
00:45:30.160 what I'm saying
00:45:30.620 and the professionals
00:45:32.720 there was
00:45:33.980 some fella there
00:45:36.060 who worked at the centre
00:45:37.100 and he's looked at me
00:45:37.700 like that
00:45:38.040 and walked away
00:45:39.600 he was laughing
00:45:40.140 but shaking his head
00:45:41.720 you know what I mean
00:45:42.320 telling some kids
00:45:44.380 some 13 year olds 1.00
00:45:45.200 I'll put you in a fucking 1.00
00:45:45.860 wheelie bin if you carry on 1.00
00:45:46.760 do you understand
00:45:47.640 what I'm saying
00:45:47.980 but it broke the ice
00:45:48.680 and then I took him outside
00:45:50.520 and spoke to him
00:45:51.140 and I spoke his language
00:45:54.400 and my communication with him
00:45:58.160 he listened to me
00:45:59.380 and he apologised.
00:46:01.400 What do you mean by
00:46:02.400 you spoke his language?
00:46:04.060 I spoke his language
00:46:05.060 like youth workers 0.99
00:46:05.820 won't
00:46:06.120 you'll never see a youth worker
00:46:08.140 saying to a kid 1.00
00:46:08.780 you fucking little prick 1.00
00:46:09.940 I'll put you in a bin 1.00
00:46:10.860 he wouldn't even call a kid a prick 1.00
00:46:11.940 or a little bastard 1.00
00:46:13.240 or you fucking 1.00
00:46:13.960 you little c**t 1.00
00:46:15.060 they don't speak the language 1.00
00:46:16.200 or a youth worker
00:46:17.580 I'd never say 0.99
00:46:18.020 who the fuck he's speaking to 0.99
00:46:19.160 they don't 1.00
00:46:20.480 because the profession
00:46:21.240 they've got too much accountability
00:46:22.800 they've got to satisfy
00:46:23.740 these big wigs above them
00:46:25.680 and they don't come from
00:46:26.720 that background
00:46:27.180 these youth workers
00:46:27.760 even the ones in
00:46:28.440 who walk around
00:46:29.760 with the jeans by the knees
00:46:30.680 and pretend
00:46:31.120 they come from that background
00:46:32.720 they ain't that guy
00:46:33.440 and the kids see that
00:46:35.140 they're fake
00:46:35.520 they're counterfeit 1.00
00:46:36.320 they're full of s**t 0.98
00:46:37.440 excuse me language 0.99
00:46:38.080 but they're full of s**t 0.99
00:46:39.360 and it's just like 0.99
00:46:40.760 the youth workers 0.98
00:46:42.240 some of them are black 0.96
00:46:44.140 and they think 0.99
00:46:45.320 they can communicate
00:46:46.120 with every black kid 1.00
00:46:46.860 that's bullshit 1.00
00:46:47.400 that's bollocks 1.00
00:46:48.480 just because you're
00:46:48.940 the same colour
00:46:49.460 doesn't mean
00:46:50.600 these kids respect you
00:46:51.840 it's just like
00:46:52.920 a white youth worker
00:46:53.600 it doesn't mean
00:46:54.000 every white kid
00:46:55.600 is going to respect
00:46:56.160 a white youth worker
00:46:56.820 and I'm a massive critic
00:46:59.280 of youth workers
00:46:59.980 and professionals
00:47:00.820 because they've got
00:47:01.360 the wrong approach
00:47:02.080 and I think they're making
00:47:03.640 the problem worse than it is
00:47:05.220 how so?
00:47:06.500 because they don't speak
00:47:07.600 the same language
00:47:08.300 as the kids
00:47:08.720 they haven't got
00:47:09.080 the right approach
00:47:09.780 they're trying to
00:47:10.900 pussyfoot and tiptoe around 0.90
00:47:12.920 these kids 0.96
00:47:13.340 and they go
00:47:14.200 oh you can't speak
00:47:15.340 to them like that
00:47:15.800 you might traumatise them
00:47:16.700 traumatise them 0.97
00:47:17.320 they're f**king walking around 0.99
00:47:18.200 with an handgun 0.99
00:47:18.680 and you're saying
00:47:21.700 they're going to traumatise me 0.99
00:47:22.680 you're f**king mad 0.99
00:47:23.240 he's just stabbed 1.00
00:47:24.800 some other kid
00:47:25.360 down the road
00:47:25.960 ten minutes ago
00:47:27.520 and you're saying
00:47:28.060 I'm going to traumatise him
00:47:29.140 by calling him 1.00
00:47:29.660 a little c**t 0.99
00:47:30.180 or telling him 0.99
00:47:31.620 I'll put him 0.91
00:47:32.420 in a wheelie bin
00:47:32.940 I'm saying for example
00:47:34.160 doesn't mean the kid
00:47:34.760 they spoke to
00:47:35.140 has just stabbed
00:47:35.600 or shot someone
00:47:36.100 I'm not saying that
00:47:36.680 but these are the type
00:47:37.880 of kids that are
00:47:38.440 walking the streets
00:47:39.120 so you speak the language
00:47:40.800 and you assert your authority
00:47:42.320 that's one of them
00:47:42.880 100% yeah
00:47:43.460 okay and what else
00:47:44.700 how do you get over
00:47:45.740 the fact that you've got
00:47:46.900 a bunch of young people
00:47:48.180 in this country
00:47:48.840 who don't have
00:47:50.280 an affinity to anything
00:47:51.720 who feel like
00:47:53.120 their only way
00:47:53.760 of getting success
00:47:55.360 or status
00:47:55.980 or respect
00:47:56.580 or power
00:47:57.460 or whatever
00:47:57.860 is to get a gun
00:47:58.700 or a knife
00:47:59.080 how do you deal with that
00:48:00.040 yeah but look
00:48:00.840 if a kid says to me
00:48:03.040 I feel powerful
00:48:04.920 when I've got a gun
00:48:05.580 I'll say yeah
00:48:06.920 I agree
00:48:07.760 because I did the same
00:48:08.640 and I felt powerful
00:48:09.600 it's great
00:48:10.860 it gives you a buzz
00:48:12.220 and I can understand
00:48:13.820 the buzz you're getting
00:48:14.460 however
00:48:15.820 it ain't going to
00:48:17.140 make you money
00:48:17.580 you might rob a watch
00:48:19.500 or you might rob
00:48:20.060 a few ounce of coke
00:48:20.760 off some drug dealer
00:48:21.460 when you're putting
00:48:22.240 your gun to them
00:48:22.760 but you'll spend that
00:48:24.200 and then you're going
00:48:24.700 to go back out next week
00:48:25.640 or in a few days
00:48:26.540 and have to do the same
00:48:27.340 eventually
00:48:28.360 you're going to get jail
00:48:29.580 you're going to be sat
00:48:30.180 you're going to get a five
00:48:30.980 plus
00:48:31.740 if you use the gun
00:48:32.580 you get longer
00:48:33.020 but even if you just
00:48:33.620 get caught with your gun
00:48:34.320 you're going to get
00:48:35.240 five years plus
00:48:35.980 and you'll be sat in jail
00:48:37.900 that two grand
00:48:39.240 or two ounce of crack
00:48:40.120 what you've just robbed
00:48:40.760 off someone
00:48:41.140 if you sell it
00:48:42.440 for a grand or 15 ton
00:48:43.440 15 ton
00:48:44.200 won't last you five years
00:48:45.040 your post lauders
00:48:45.960 you can spend
00:48:46.900 25, 30 quid a week
00:48:48.120 so times that by 52
00:48:49.820 my mat isn't great
00:48:50.800 what is it
00:48:52.160 do you know what I mean
00:48:53.040 25 quid times 52
00:48:54.840 so do your sums
00:48:56.780 so you're going to be
00:48:57.780 sat in jail
00:48:58.360 skint 1.00
00:48:58.740 on your ass 1.00
00:48:59.480 on the phone 1.00
00:49:00.680 begging your mum
00:49:01.260 for a post lauder
00:49:01.860 I've been there myself
00:49:03.000 and it doesn't last
00:49:05.020 that's why you see
00:49:05.620 all these gang members
00:49:06.300 in jail
00:49:06.660 they're skint
00:49:07.080 and a lot of them
00:49:09.200 get onto these
00:49:09.900 young broke
00:49:11.940 whitebirds
00:49:12.520 in jail
00:49:14.600 like they'll meet
00:49:15.120 them in jail
00:49:15.600 the bird will be
00:49:16.500 outside
00:49:16.860 the gang member
00:49:17.440 will meet her
00:49:18.320 get onto her 0.64
00:49:18.920 through writing
00:49:19.320 to her
00:49:19.520 I don't know
00:49:19.960 or on the phone
00:49:20.580 and they'll start
00:49:21.860 bumming money off her
00:49:23.000 or get me training
00:49:24.460 babe
00:49:24.900 I love you
00:49:25.400 and this and that
00:49:26.020 so he's
00:49:27.500 being financed
00:49:28.340 by this girl
00:49:29.080 who he's met
00:49:29.940 in prison
00:49:30.380 who he doesn't
00:49:30.920 previously know
00:49:31.760 and she's got kids
00:49:33.000 to raise
00:49:33.320 but this
00:49:34.120 this gang member
00:49:35.500 in jail
00:49:35.720 I'm not saying
00:49:36.080 all gang members
00:49:36.620 are like that
00:49:36.940 but a vast
00:49:37.620 big proportion
00:49:39.200 do this
00:49:39.760 they cling on to girls 0.98
00:49:40.700 because it's
00:49:41.780 they source
00:49:42.560 an income
00:49:43.820 they source
00:49:44.200 they fund them
00:49:44.720 from this 1.00
00:49:45.120 innocent fucking 1.00
00:49:45.800 young girl 1.00
00:49:46.740 who's been
00:49:47.720 who's got
00:49:48.800 misguided loyalty
00:49:49.620 to them
00:49:49.860 who believes
00:49:50.500 that this gang
00:49:51.060 member in jail
00:49:51.660 loves them
00:49:52.260 because he's
00:49:53.460 on his Instagram
00:49:54.180 with a six pack
00:49:54.840 and his chest out
00:49:55.860 and he's got a six pack
00:49:56.500 and he's in good shape
00:49:57.200 he's preying on her
00:49:58.780 financially
00:49:59.600 for financial gain
00:50:00.800 and then he gets out
00:50:02.020 and he thinks 1.00
00:50:03.680 nah fuck 1.00
00:50:04.100 she's got six kids 1.00
00:50:05.700 or fucking 1.00
00:50:06.940 four kids 1.00
00:50:08.160 and she
00:50:09.080 you know
00:50:09.420 I'm not going to
00:50:10.200 settle down with her
00:50:10.900 it was just a
00:50:11.440 means to an end
00:50:12.280 to get through his prison
00:50:13.000 do you know what I mean
00:50:13.940 to get him trainees
00:50:14.720 to get him post-law just
00:50:15.820 and it's quite common in jail
00:50:17.640 do you know what I mean
00:50:18.300 but gang members
00:50:19.080 are skint
00:50:19.720 and going back to the story
00:50:21.380 it's about
00:50:22.000 re-educating these kids
00:50:23.800 on the consequences
00:50:25.340 and the pros and cons
00:50:26.580 the benefits
00:50:27.060 I'm not
00:50:28.060 going to tell any kid
00:50:29.160 don't carry a gun
00:50:29.860 but I'm going to give them
00:50:31.700 these are the benefits
00:50:33.600 these are the consequences
00:50:34.560 the consequences
00:50:35.520 outweigh the benefits
00:50:36.680 but when I'm communicating
00:50:38.040 with them
00:50:38.500 I'm telling them straight
00:50:40.200 look
00:50:40.640 you'll end up skint
00:50:41.500 you'll end up in jail
00:50:42.380 you know
00:50:43.920 if you use your gun 0.99
00:50:45.600 and kill someone 0.97
00:50:46.100 you'll end up in jail 1.00
00:50:47.040 wanking for your next 30 years 0.97
00:50:48.400 you'll be getting out 0.96
00:50:49.480 with an old man 0.97
00:50:49.960 lending tuner
00:50:50.760 off your neighbour
00:50:51.180 it's not the place to be
00:50:52.540 it's not the place to go 1.00
00:50:53.840 it's shit 1.00
00:50:54.240 you know 1.00
00:50:55.260 if the benefit
00:50:55.800 outweighs the risk
00:50:56.540 then
00:50:57.280 fair enough
00:50:58.520 but
00:50:58.760 in this
00:50:59.740 in violent crime
00:51:00.840 the benefit
00:51:01.480 don't outweigh the risk
00:51:03.360 and it's about
00:51:04.820 getting this message
00:51:05.660 to them
00:51:06.060 and not saying
00:51:06.760 don't do it
00:51:08.100 I'm working with the police
00:51:09.180 or I'm working with the council
00:51:10.320 don't do it
00:51:11.340 because they're going to
00:51:11.840 look at you 1.00
00:51:12.180 like you're a c*** 1.00
00:51:12.800 and think 1.00
00:51:13.600 why should they listen to you
00:51:14.460 you've got to
00:51:15.520 put them in
00:51:16.440 you've got to become
00:51:17.420 their leader
00:51:18.960 it's like a 0.95
00:51:19.720 pack of dogs
00:51:20.380 and you're becoming
00:51:21.780 part of that pack
00:51:22.560 you've got to become
00:51:23.100 part of them
00:51:23.620 and then lead from within
00:51:24.800 and be a
00:51:26.700 good example to them
00:51:27.800 and show them
00:51:28.220 look
00:51:28.440 you can hustle
00:51:29.740 on the streets
00:51:30.200 for years
00:51:30.680 and be skint
00:51:31.700 whereas if you go to uni
00:51:32.800 and hustle 0.91
00:51:33.560 for three years
00:51:34.640 you get a degree
00:51:35.260 you can go and get a job
00:51:36.820 40, 50 grand a year
00:51:37.900 you're earning more
00:51:39.020 legitimately legit money
00:51:40.180 than you're half a gram
00:51:41.640 how are you going to
00:51:42.360 buy a house
00:51:42.800 and you go
00:51:43.100 well I'll just save up
00:51:44.060 save up from robbing
00:51:46.080 a few hours of crack
00:51:46.700 every week
00:51:47.120 where are you going to
00:51:48.160 where are you going to
00:51:48.500 put your money
00:51:48.900 I'll get my nan to buy me
00:51:49.940 I'll give it to my nan
00:51:50.760 and then
00:51:52.220 you've got to educate
00:51:52.980 them on money laundering
00:51:53.720 there's a lawyer
00:51:54.940 who we've got
00:51:55.420 the programme
00:51:56.100 what I'm doing
00:51:56.480 there's a lawyer
00:51:56.960 who's going to come
00:51:58.060 and do a talk
00:51:58.760 every programme
00:51:59.520 and he's going to
00:52:00.740 educate them
00:52:01.360 on joint enterprise
00:52:02.200 conspiracy
00:52:02.760 money laundering
00:52:03.560 and he's going to
00:52:04.620 educate the reality
00:52:05.500 you can't just go
00:52:07.240 and rob people 0.52
00:52:08.300 or go and sell crack
00:52:09.300 and smack 0.97
00:52:09.800 and then go and buy
00:52:11.060 it out with the proceeds
00:52:11.960 it don't work like that
00:52:12.860 you understand what I'm saying
00:52:14.460 so it's getting
00:52:15.460 the message
00:52:15.940 through to them
00:52:17.240 by speaking
00:52:18.520 the same language
00:52:19.180 and then getting
00:52:19.900 the lawyers
00:52:20.580 to explain
00:52:21.740 the legal side
00:52:22.420 to corroborate
00:52:23.940 what I'm saying
00:52:24.460 look he's a lawyer
00:52:25.440 he represents 0.68
00:52:26.340 stone cold killers
00:52:27.900 he represents
00:52:28.420 the biggest
00:52:28.900 drug cartel
00:52:29.720 he represents
00:52:30.380 the worst 0.90
00:52:31.400 of the worst
00:52:31.900 he's their defence lawyer
00:52:33.180 it's actually
00:52:33.480 a very rational approach
00:52:34.860 what you're saying
00:52:35.560 is you're not
00:52:36.360 wagging the finger
00:52:37.260 and going
00:52:37.540 oh you naughty boy
00:52:38.500 you're going
00:52:39.100 look you can do
00:52:39.940 whatever you want
00:52:40.640 but these are
00:52:41.660 the consequences
00:52:42.320 of your actions
00:52:42.980 and they're not
00:52:43.500 what you think
00:52:43.980 they're going to be
00:52:44.440 correct
00:52:44.660 and also
00:52:45.540 at the same time
00:52:46.260 giving them
00:52:46.760 an alternative
00:52:47.600 like the ones
00:52:48.600 on the programmes
00:52:49.560 when I'm starting
00:52:50.040 the 16 to 19 year olds
00:52:51.460 we're going to be
00:52:52.600 guaranteeing
00:52:53.140 every one of them
00:52:53.680 a job at the end
00:52:54.440 the programme
00:52:54.860 the 12 to 15
00:52:56.100 there's going to be
00:52:56.540 two groups
00:52:56.980 12 to 15
00:52:57.660 16 to 19
00:52:58.580 the 12 to 15
00:52:59.420 we can't necessarily
00:53:00.720 they're still in education
00:53:02.300 alternative provisions
00:53:03.820 and PRUs
00:53:04.520 so on
00:53:05.200 so we can't necessarily
00:53:06.460 get them into work
00:53:07.200 at that moment
00:53:07.760 but we're putting them
00:53:09.800 on the right path
00:53:10.460 we might get them 1.00
00:53:11.420 a fucking 1.00
00:53:11.700 weekend job 1.00
00:53:12.480 in a garage
00:53:13.280 or helping
00:53:14.800 someone's
00:53:15.940 electrician's helper
00:53:17.480 you don't understand
00:53:18.460 what I'm saying
00:53:18.820 but the old ones
00:53:19.440 16 to 19
00:53:19.960 we're getting them
00:53:21.160 into work
00:53:21.560 and we're giving them
00:53:22.900 the alternative
00:53:23.480 to earn legitimate money
00:53:24.700 where you can put it
00:53:25.920 in the bank
00:53:26.340 you can get your good credit
00:53:27.320 we're teaching them
00:53:28.060 about building the credit
00:53:29.000 what you've got to do
00:53:30.960 to get a house
00:53:31.640 what you've got to do
00:53:32.640 to get finance
00:53:33.800 what you've got to do
00:53:34.380 to get cars
00:53:34.980 and we're educating them
00:53:36.000 look you can't just
00:53:36.780 go into a showroom
00:53:38.080 with 50 grand
00:53:38.740 of dodgy money
00:53:40.380 and buy a car
00:53:41.060 back in the day
00:53:42.000 yeah 0.96
00:53:42.160 that was fucking great 0.98
00:53:43.060 but you're in 2022 now 1.00
00:53:44.620 shit don't work like that 0.99
00:53:45.760 we're educating them 1.00
00:53:46.880 what are you going to do
00:53:48.500 with your money
00:53:48.900 how are you going to spend it
00:53:50.160 how are you going to
00:53:50.620 how are you going to clean it
00:53:51.780 it's not as easy as
00:53:53.080 you can go out
00:53:53.660 and buy a coat for you
00:53:55.120 in your bed
00:53:55.580 and go to a club
00:53:56.680 and buy champagne
00:53:57.280 but that's all your life
00:53:58.260 is going to consist of
00:53:59.000 you're never going to have
00:53:59.640 a house
00:53:59.940 you're never going to have
00:54:00.480 a decent car
00:54:01.040 because the police
00:54:02.260 are going to be questioning
00:54:02.800 where did you get your car
00:54:03.580 and you can't just go
00:54:04.860 and buy a house like that
00:54:05.600 you can't just say
00:54:06.220 oh my man give me the money 1.00
00:54:07.560 bullshit 0.99
00:54:08.140 that was something 1.00
00:54:08.840 you've done in the 60s
00:54:09.680 it's absolute bollocks 0.99
00:54:10.720 shit don't work like that 0.99
00:54:11.940 and it's getting this message 1.00
00:54:13.040 through to these kids
00:54:14.520 and there's no one in the country
00:54:15.460 that's got the solution
00:54:17.920 hey francis
00:54:19.760 do you like locals
00:54:21.000 i live in london mate
00:54:22.480 so obviously not
00:54:23.560 the only pleasure i get
00:54:25.200 from the locals
00:54:26.200 is when we share
00:54:27.140 an intimate moment
00:54:28.080 as we watch a japanese
00:54:29.540 tourist get trapped
00:54:30.920 in a tube door
00:54:31.920 that is good
00:54:33.620 but i wasn't talking
00:54:34.920 about the locals
00:54:36.000 i was talking about
00:54:37.420 our community
00:54:38.380 on locals
00:54:39.520 you mean the one
00:54:40.360 where you get phenomenal
00:54:41.660 behind the scenes content
00:54:43.100 when you
00:54:43.640 where you get to ask
00:54:48.020 incredible guests
00:54:49.660 like
00:54:50.140 jordan peterson
00:54:51.400 brett weinstein
00:54:52.760 bill burr
00:54:53.980 sam harris
00:54:55.080 adam carolla
00:54:56.360 heather highen
00:54:57.520 and others
00:54:58.520 your questions
00:54:59.420 not just that
00:55:00.540 you can get supporter
00:55:01.640 only benefits
00:55:02.580 like trigonometry mugs
00:55:03.920 monthly calls
00:55:05.060 with other top supporters
00:55:06.440 and even a regular meal
00:55:07.860 with me and francis
00:55:08.760 you also get
00:55:10.140 phenomenal
00:55:11.280 behind the scenes footage
00:55:12.900 of our trip to america
00:55:14.660 where we met
00:55:15.860 a whole host
00:55:17.060 of incredible guests
00:55:18.160 and gave ourselves
00:55:19.400 terminal indigestion
00:55:20.760 we're also starting
00:55:21.940 to do monthly giveaways
00:55:23.140 for locals only
00:55:24.120 the first one
00:55:24.880 will be signed copies
00:55:25.900 of andrew doyle's
00:55:26.940 new book
00:55:27.460 plus
00:55:28.380 you get access
00:55:29.580 to an incredible
00:55:30.800 community
00:55:31.500 of like-minded people
00:55:33.380 who share memes
00:55:34.320 have fun conversations
00:55:36.000 and most importantly
00:55:37.620 you get to make
00:55:39.060 new friends
00:55:39.760 you can support us
00:55:41.060 with as little as
00:55:41.920 seven dollars
00:55:42.580 or about five pounds
00:55:43.620 a month
00:55:43.960 or give us more
00:55:45.200 for the higher tier benefits
00:55:46.560 go to trigonometry.locals.com
00:55:49.680 go to trigonometry.locals.com
00:55:53.160 and support the show
00:55:54.700 Sikaris 1.00
00:55:56.480 do you think a lot
00:55:57.200 of these kids
00:55:57.660 are in love
00:55:58.100 with an image
00:55:58.660 they've got this image
00:56:00.020 in their heads
00:56:00.620 of what it means
00:56:01.420 to be a gangster
00:56:02.240 and 100% look
00:56:03.580 and I know
00:56:05.180 the feminists
00:56:06.220 will probably
00:56:06.540 criticize me
00:56:07.060 for this
00:56:07.360 and these
00:56:07.720 I don't know
00:56:09.620 do-gooders
00:56:10.220 but
00:56:10.500 these days
00:56:12.040 if
00:56:12.280 if you're a heterosexual man
00:56:14.880 for example
00:56:15.320 or you like women
00:56:16.300 for example
00:56:16.800 Sik 0.98
00:56:17.100 just using this
00:56:18.160 as an example
00:56:18.700 for a kid
00:56:20.800 to get a
00:56:21.380 decent
00:56:22.200 well I wouldn't even
00:56:23.580 say decent
00:56:23.980 because the girls 1.00
00:56:24.520 who go for criminals
00:56:25.200 are a bit
00:56:25.600 but
00:56:26.800 to get a decent
00:56:27.980 looking one
00:56:28.420 like a fit bed
00:56:29.420 as we describe it
00:56:31.000 you've got to have
00:56:32.280 something to buy
00:56:32.740 I know this is wrong
00:56:34.500 but these kids
00:56:35.140 are seeing it
00:56:35.560 I'm speaking
00:56:35.900 let me put myself
00:56:36.880 in their perspective
00:56:37.620 in their shoes
00:56:38.280 no girl is going 1.00
00:56:40.480 to look at me 1.00
00:56:41.400 if I'm a fucking 1.00
00:56:42.060 gimp 1.00
00:56:42.560 working in McDonald's
00:56:44.160 now I'm not
00:56:44.560 criticizing people
00:56:45.200 working in McDonald's
00:56:45.940 so I'm
00:56:46.480 looking at
00:56:46.940 I'm speaking
00:56:47.360 you're saying
00:56:47.800 this is how a kid
00:56:48.920 is thinking about this
00:56:49.840 look
00:56:50.440 just say it how it is
00:56:51.740 and we'll
00:56:52.340 we'll go with it
00:56:53.200 but just in case
00:56:53.700 you've got any followers
00:56:54.360 that work in McDonald's
00:56:55.220 I'm not putting
00:56:56.820 these people down
00:56:57.400 we try to have
00:56:58.340 honest conversation
00:56:59.320 what you're saying is
00:57:00.240 from this young man's
00:57:01.860 perspective
00:57:02.180 he's seeing
00:57:03.760 well if I want to
00:57:04.800 have an attractive
00:57:05.500 girlfriend
00:57:06.240 I can't be working
00:57:07.980 in McDonald's
00:57:08.560 I have to be something
00:57:09.780 yeah
00:57:10.040 correct
00:57:10.460 they want to create
00:57:12.580 a reputation
00:57:13.160 an image
00:57:13.780 and I know 0.99
00:57:15.580 it's bullshit 0.99
00:57:16.040 but they don't know 1.00
00:57:17.220 it's bullshit 0.99
00:57:17.680 and most of the 1.00
00:57:18.740 little young girls
00:57:19.540 not even the young girls
00:57:22.300 even the girls
00:57:22.800 in the 20s
00:57:23.720 whatever
00:57:24.360 30s even
00:57:25.640 the way some of them
00:57:27.100 are now
00:57:27.440 they want that image
00:57:28.400 they want that
00:57:28.900 when they go to a club
00:57:30.040 their fella's this
00:57:31.580 or their fella's that 0.98
00:57:32.440 but when they go out
00:57:33.700 even the young ones
00:57:34.380 who are 14
00:57:35.040 my boyfriend
00:57:36.800 or whatever they call them
00:57:38.060 in different cities
00:57:38.680 my fella
00:57:39.220 is such and such 1.00
00:57:40.700 he'll fucking kill you 1.00
00:57:41.500 he'll do this 1.00
00:57:42.100 he'll do that
00:57:43.160 that's what these girls want 1.00
00:57:44.600 because then
00:57:45.160 that image
00:57:46.140 what the lads got
00:57:46.920 then
00:57:47.240 goes off onto the girls 0.99
00:57:49.580 so no one fucks with the girl 0.99
00:57:50.740 and then she's 0.99
00:57:51.480 her credibility comes up
00:57:52.960 her status crawls up
00:57:54.220 because she's dating 0.99
00:57:55.060 Johnny fucking Tuchess 0.99
00:57:57.380 or whatever he wants 0.99
00:57:58.920 you know
00:57:59.460 Tommy Tenguns
00:58:01.120 he fella's Tommy Tenguns 1.00
00:58:02.600 so I'll do what the fuck 1.00
00:58:03.820 I want 0.99
00:58:04.060 she can speak to
00:58:04.800 whoever she wants
00:58:06.160 how she wants 0.99
00:58:06.840 because if anyone reacts
00:58:08.160 to her
00:58:08.520 any of her peers 1.00
00:58:10.160 give a shit 1.00
00:58:10.660 her fella 1.00
00:58:11.180 they don't want the shit 1.00
00:58:12.520 of her fella 1.00
00:58:12.960 so status
00:58:14.100 is a massive thing
00:58:15.660 just that
00:58:16.140 if you're a gimp 0.91
00:58:17.020 then you ain't getting 0.99
00:58:18.780 that woman 1.00
00:58:19.160 I don't want to come
00:58:21.800 across offensive
00:58:22.360 but
00:58:22.640 out there 0.96
00:58:23.720 if you're a gimp 0.99
00:58:24.860 you're going to end up 0.97
00:58:25.380 with some
00:58:25.700 little spotty gimpy girl 0.79
00:58:27.340 and who wants to be seen
00:58:28.700 with a gimpy girl 0.98
00:58:29.400 I've got a gimpy girl now 1.00
00:58:31.840 so
00:58:32.100 sorry
00:58:33.920 I shouldn't have even
00:58:34.720 called her that
00:58:35.080 but you know what I mean
00:58:35.620 she's high up in her company
00:58:38.280 she's normal
00:58:38.820 she wears glasses
00:58:39.760 she looks like
00:58:40.380 Harry Potter
00:58:41.180 but I like her
00:58:42.080 that's what you need in life
00:58:44.000 you need one legit
00:58:44.720 you know what I mean
00:58:45.060 whereas
00:58:45.320 these kids
00:58:47.060 don't want that type of stuff
00:58:48.580 they want
00:58:49.000 the Beyonce type
00:58:50.940 or
00:58:51.200 the big booty 0.52
00:58:52.220 the big legs 0.63
00:58:52.920 and the twerking
00:58:54.340 and she's got loads of followers 0.99
00:58:56.060 on fucking 0.99
00:58:56.540 what's that thing called 1.00
00:58:57.420 Instagram
00:58:57.900 TikToks
00:58:58.660 TikToks
00:58:59.300 my Instagram followers
00:59:00.340 and I've got
00:59:01.220 50,000 likes
00:59:02.500 on me
00:59:03.100 on me
00:59:03.600 semi-naked picture
00:59:04.400 that's what these kids want
00:59:06.400 status
00:59:07.060 reputation
00:59:08.000 so working in McDonald's
00:59:09.740 ain't going to get you no status
00:59:10.700 unless you go to
00:59:11.620 flipping burgers
00:59:12.220 and you can flip a burger
00:59:13.100 in six seconds
00:59:13.800 and get it out on the
00:59:15.220 but it's bollocks
00:59:16.600 and so that's why
00:59:18.660 we've got to change
00:59:19.420 the ideology
00:59:20.040 of these kids
00:59:20.760 that
00:59:22.020 okay
00:59:22.400 you've got this
00:59:23.060 lovely looking girl
00:59:24.320 now
00:59:24.620 but when you go to jail 1.00
00:59:26.260 she'll be fucking 1.00
00:59:28.400 your mate 1.00
00:59:28.740 trust me
00:59:30.300 or your adversary
00:59:32.060 your gang member
00:59:32.780 rival
00:59:33.340 will be around 1.00
00:59:34.580 fucking her in your bed 1.00
00:59:36.120 because that's the way 1.00
00:59:37.360 that's the way
00:59:38.100 if you attract
00:59:39.280 that type of energy
00:59:40.180 that type of person
00:59:41.080 then the outcome
00:59:42.520 is always going to be negative
00:59:43.440 because if you can't
00:59:44.700 sustain there
00:59:45.240 and maintain that woman
00:59:46.240 in prison
00:59:46.940 if you're a good person
00:59:48.580 working in McDonald's
00:59:49.400 you'll get a good woman
00:59:50.120 100%
00:59:51.900 you'll be loyal and faithful
00:59:52.840 where
00:59:53.720 if it's a woman
00:59:54.800 who goes for these
00:59:55.420 little gang members
00:59:56.120 and wants her status 1.00
00:59:56.900 that's all she wants
00:59:58.380 she likes the status
01:00:00.860 and the reputation
01:00:01.500 the moment you don't have that
01:00:02.900 she's going to find
01:00:03.720 someone who's got it
01:00:04.680 correct
01:00:04.920 and when you go to prison
01:00:06.140 you no longer have that
01:00:07.040 yeah
01:00:07.600 because when you go to prison
01:00:08.520 people are like
01:00:09.180 oh yeah remember him
01:00:09.980 he was mad 1.00
01:00:10.380 but fuck him 1.00
01:00:11.220 now he's doing the tent 1.00
01:00:11.960 he can't do nothing to us
01:00:13.300 so he loses his influence
01:00:14.760 he loses his credibility
01:00:15.880 and so on
01:00:17.040 and so this girl
01:00:18.320 she's thriving for that
01:00:19.820 what do I do now
01:00:20.800 he can't protect me
01:00:21.660 when he was in prison
01:00:22.180 he can't
01:00:23.340 I haven't got that status
01:00:24.220 so then she'll go on
01:00:25.020 to someone else
01:00:25.480 and that's the way
01:00:26.200 them girls are 1.00
01:00:26.720 it's like the girl
01:00:27.420 I was with at the time
01:00:28.240 when I went to prison
01:00:29.540 for shooting that lad
01:00:30.380 she ended up getting
01:00:31.860 with the lad a shot
01:00:32.520 it was a bizarre
01:00:33.720 state of affairs
01:00:34.500 but I thought
01:00:35.000 he's been selling the ranger
01:00:36.780 and he's there in the bedroom
01:00:38.160 and I thought
01:00:38.580 put him on
01:00:39.500 and I thought 0.99
01:00:40.340 what the fuck am I even doing 0.99
01:00:41.540 speaking to him 0.99
01:00:41.960 but I thought
01:00:43.020 bygones be bygones
01:00:44.260 I apologised to him
01:00:45.300 and said look
01:00:45.700 I'm sorry for what I've done
01:00:47.000 and he explained my reasons
01:00:48.520 and he apologised back to me
01:00:50.340 and it was water under the bridge
01:00:52.420 it was done and dusted
01:00:53.400 I've seen him since
01:00:54.360 when I got out
01:00:54.860 and you know
01:00:55.660 I let on to him
01:00:57.300 and that was that
01:00:57.720 I never stopped and spoken
01:00:58.480 we're never going to be mates
01:00:59.340 but he forgave me
01:01:01.160 well he said he forgave me
01:01:02.180 and I generally apologise
01:01:03.800 and it was genuine
01:01:04.480 Sikaris 1.00
01:01:05.980 there's a lot of people
01:01:07.480 who are saying
01:01:08.020 look
01:01:08.260 a large part of the problem
01:01:09.980 is you know
01:01:10.420 drill music for instance
01:01:12.040 it glamorises it
01:01:13.820 the kids listen to it
01:01:15.340 look I don't believe this
01:01:16.660 but there's a lot of people
01:01:17.720 out there
01:01:18.120 and this is an argument
01:01:18.880 that they consistently use
01:01:20.380 and in the 90s
01:01:21.560 it was you know
01:01:22.160 gangster rap
01:01:22.980 what do you say
01:01:23.700 to these people?
01:01:24.940 Prince Harry
01:01:25.700 I'm sure it was Prince Harry
01:01:26.560 or Prince
01:01:26.980 what's his brother's name?
01:01:28.020 Prince William
01:01:28.720 William or Harry
01:01:30.340 one of them listens
01:01:31.900 I remember
01:01:32.560 one of them saying
01:01:33.960 they listen to
01:01:34.480 gangster rap
01:01:35.860 or 50 Pence 1.00
01:01:37.140 whatever the fuck 1.00
01:01:37.760 his name is 1.00
01:01:38.520 50 Pence is such a shit name 1.00
01:01:41.060 for a rapper 1.00
01:01:41.760 you know
01:01:43.020 the American rapper
01:01:43.900 you know
01:01:44.160 50 Cent
01:01:44.960 yeah
01:01:45.240 women in a club
01:01:47.480 and all that 1.00
01:01:47.860 type of shit 1.00
01:01:48.600 one of them listens to him 1.00
01:01:50.100 and you don't see
01:01:51.020 Prince Harry and William
01:01:51.920 running around London
01:01:52.660 with a glove
01:01:53.820 with a mask on 1.00
01:01:54.720 it's bullshit 1.00
01:01:55.860 but 1.00
01:01:56.700 rap music
01:01:58.240 in itself
01:01:59.360 doesn't
01:02:00.460 make people
01:02:03.280 into a monster
01:02:04.000 it doesn't make them
01:02:04.620 go and get a gun
01:02:05.380 and go and rob someone 0.99
01:02:06.120 but
01:02:06.360 it just reinforces
01:02:08.220 the ideology
01:02:08.820 I'd say
01:02:09.180 it's still got to be there
01:02:10.200 it's like
01:02:11.760 chlamydia
01:02:12.880 it's got to be there
01:02:15.060 to spread it
01:02:15.580 it's got to be there
01:02:16.080 to grow
01:02:16.440 do you understand
01:02:17.480 what I'm saying?
01:02:18.040 if it's not there
01:02:18.820 rap music
01:02:20.920 may enforce
01:02:21.600 that ideology
01:02:22.260 do you know
01:02:23.220 what I mean?
01:02:24.580 and I think
01:02:25.240 the main issue
01:02:26.100 of rap music
01:02:26.820 drill music
01:02:27.280 whatever you want to call it
01:02:28.180 is that
01:02:29.480 they slate each other
01:02:31.480 so one gang will slate
01:02:32.940 another gang
01:02:33.480 like one gang will say
01:02:35.100 rapping about
01:02:36.180 whatever
01:02:36.500 he's rapping about
01:02:37.800 and they'll go
01:02:38.320 Terry Tibbs 1.00
01:02:40.960 suck your mum 1.00
01:02:41.460 or 1.00
01:02:42.360 the North
01:02:43.700 G
01:02:43.980 whatever they're called 1.00
01:02:44.980 I fucked your sister 1.00
01:02:46.820 do you see where I'm coming from? 1.00
01:02:48.520 so it's still got to be there
01:02:49.540 whereas if two kids
01:02:50.840 who work in McDonald's
01:02:51.900 do a rap
01:02:52.860 and go 1.00
01:02:53.160 oh your cheeseburger was shit 1.00
01:02:54.480 the McDonald's worker 1.00
01:02:56.880 isn't going to go and kill him
01:02:57.740 yeah
01:02:58.080 so it doesn't
01:02:58.900 it's still got to be there
01:03:00.160 it's already got to be within them
01:03:01.940 yeah
01:03:02.240 but rap music
01:03:03.340 does
01:03:03.760 it expedites
01:03:05.180 the trouble
01:03:06.300 it can expedite it
01:03:07.720 I understand
01:03:08.100 but
01:03:08.460 then people are still going to
01:03:10.280 either way
01:03:10.860 they're still going to have
01:03:12.220 beef and dramas anyway
01:03:13.580 yeah
01:03:14.020 so I don't think
01:03:14.720 it might create
01:03:15.780 rap music might create
01:03:17.480 drama between two gangs
01:03:19.640 it's just my opinion
01:03:20.340 but
01:03:21.200 they were already gangs
01:03:22.940 so even if that rap music
01:03:24.140 never made them shoot him 0.80
01:03:25.240 he would have shot someone
01:03:26.600 for a different reason
01:03:27.400 do you see what I'm saying?
01:03:28.780 so they're already
01:03:29.300 that type of character
01:03:30.780 I guess the argument is
01:03:31.800 when you talked about
01:03:32.620 people having an image
01:03:33.640 in their head of
01:03:34.520 it reinforces it
01:03:35.360 it reinforces that
01:03:36.520 with the cars
01:03:37.100 and they're putting a video
01:03:37.740 so it reinforces it
01:03:38.860 and it gets the image
01:03:40.520 out there
01:03:41.660 the spectacles
01:03:42.360 the cars
01:03:42.880 the women 0.97
01:03:43.220 the dogs
01:03:43.760 the discs
01:03:45.140 the gold chains
01:03:45.700 the watches
01:03:46.160 and the boys
01:03:47.460 you're on a video
01:03:48.420 with 10 of your mates
01:03:49.920 if they were rapping
01:03:51.280 about being skint
01:03:52.180 and going to prison
01:03:53.000 it probably would have
01:03:54.020 a different impact
01:03:54.760 look if they were rapping
01:03:55.800 about skinny jeans
01:03:57.660 and ballet dancing
01:03:58.300 then the world
01:03:59.560 would be a great place
01:04:00.360 do you understand
01:04:01.400 but they're rapping
01:04:02.020 about their lifestyles
01:04:02.840 but half of these rappers
01:04:04.200 who were doing their life
01:04:04.960 they've never lived that life 1.00
01:04:05.860 they're full of shit 1.00
01:04:06.440 and I think 1.00
01:04:08.020 half of you
01:04:08.800 there's one from the Midlands
01:04:11.100 who raps about this
01:04:12.020 and I think 0.99
01:04:12.480 what the fuck 0.99
01:04:13.700 have you ever done? 1.00
01:04:14.960 you can't rap 1.00
01:04:15.720 about that shit 1.00
01:04:16.300 because you're not 1.00
01:04:16.740 involved in that
01:04:17.960 so they're rapping
01:04:18.940 about a 50 calibre
01:04:21.580 and mate
01:04:21.900 you've never even seen
01:04:22.540 a 50 calibre
01:04:23.140 you probably can't even
01:04:24.400 spell calibre
01:04:25.140 do you know what I mean?
01:04:26.640 so half of me
01:04:27.340 were rapping 1.00
01:04:27.620 I just full of shit 1.00
01:04:28.260 anyway 1.00
01:04:28.500 but I wouldn't say
01:04:29.800 rap music
01:04:30.580 creates monsters
01:04:32.520 I think
01:04:33.200 it can expedite
01:04:34.760 the situation
01:04:35.220 yeah
01:04:35.660 that makes sense
01:04:36.720 yeah
01:04:37.020 that makes complete sense
01:04:38.260 that makes sense
01:04:38.940 so before we wrap up
01:04:41.420 should we talk about
01:04:42.480 policing a little bit
01:04:43.340 because prison
01:04:44.220 and policing
01:04:44.820 and all of that
01:04:45.520 do we have
01:04:47.000 the right approach
01:04:48.040 to dealing with people
01:04:49.200 like the person
01:04:50.040 that you used to be
01:04:50.840 in this country
01:04:51.360 because obviously
01:04:52.080 in the end
01:04:53.140 for you
01:04:53.720 going to prison
01:04:54.880 for a second time
01:04:55.820 did help you
01:04:56.560 to change your life
01:04:57.500 and turn it around
01:04:58.300 you might say
01:04:59.880 while I was in prison
01:05:00.640 yeah
01:05:00.800 watching that programme
01:05:01.540 and a few other factors
01:05:02.480 combined with that
01:05:03.180 it did change me
01:05:03.720 but I think
01:05:05.800 the public
01:05:07.280 are moaning
01:05:08.400 that they want
01:05:09.400 something done
01:05:09.760 about a violent crime
01:05:10.640 but the same public
01:05:11.920 are then moaning
01:05:12.740 about stop and search
01:05:13.640 now my opinion
01:05:15.400 I used to get stopped
01:05:17.180 more than anyone
01:05:17.740 I was stopped
01:05:18.460 by armed response
01:05:19.080 so I was stopped
01:05:19.820 ten times a week
01:05:21.280 sometimes five times a day
01:05:22.900 in the building
01:05:23.760 in Maersad
01:05:24.280 constantly by armed response
01:05:25.840 constantly by medics
01:05:26.800 so I know
01:05:28.400 more than anyone
01:05:29.500 how effective
01:05:31.120 stop and search is
01:05:32.120 do you know what I mean
01:05:33.040 in Maersad police notice
01:05:34.160 I was stopped
01:05:34.780 thousands and thousands
01:05:36.360 of times
01:05:36.820 from 2009
01:05:39.240 to 2016
01:05:41.900 it was mostly
01:05:42.780 2009
01:05:43.520 2012
01:05:44.060 mostly
01:05:44.760 but I was still
01:05:45.920 stopped after
01:05:46.400 sometimes three
01:05:47.960 four
01:05:48.240 five
01:05:48.540 six times a day
01:05:49.220 so I know
01:05:49.860 more than anyone
01:05:50.480 stop and search
01:05:52.840 do you know what I mean
01:05:53.700 and I can tell you
01:05:54.540 100%
01:05:55.340 it disrupts
01:05:56.500 it won't prevent you
01:05:57.560 being a criminal
01:05:58.680 like I was a criminal
01:05:59.940 and stopping me
01:06:00.660 didn't prevent me
01:06:01.220 being a criminal
01:06:01.720 but
01:06:02.620 it makes him
01:06:04.320 more reluctant
01:06:05.000 it makes him
01:06:05.520 more aware
01:06:06.020 and when other gangs
01:06:06.940 would come from
01:06:07.460 out of the way
01:06:08.040 to meet me
01:06:09.060 it was
01:06:10.200 I don't want to
01:06:10.980 come across the matrix
01:06:11.680 I want to avoid the matrix
01:06:12.800 I don't want to do this
01:06:13.980 I don't want to do that
01:06:14.640 so it does disrupt you
01:06:16.260 stop and search
01:06:17.020 is massively effective
01:06:19.100 and you've got all these
01:06:20.300 MPs like
01:06:21.140 you know
01:06:22.440 I like some views
01:06:24.060 David Lammy has
01:06:24.800 and Don Butler
01:06:26.480 and things like that
01:06:27.140 but they're against
01:06:28.120 stop and search
01:06:28.740 and the black community
01:06:30.600 in London
01:06:30.940 is against it
01:06:31.520 and I'm saying
01:06:32.140 it's the black community 1.00
01:06:34.060 who are being killed 1.00
01:06:34.940 and he's a moan 0.88
01:06:37.740 on what's happening
01:06:39.240 the consequence of gun crime
01:06:40.520 the consequence of knife crime
01:06:41.540 but
01:06:41.740 you need to stand up
01:06:43.720 as a community
01:06:44.440 for example
01:06:45.740 I'm using the black community
01:06:46.900 as an example
01:06:47.520 because a lot of them
01:06:48.240 moan in London
01:06:48.860 about stop and search
01:06:49.920 like Lammy
01:06:50.780 Don Butler
01:06:51.220 and so on
01:06:51.640 and the councillors
01:06:52.720 and MPs
01:06:53.180 but you need to support
01:06:54.840 stop and search
01:06:55.320 you need to support
01:06:56.100 the police
01:06:56.540 and they're saying
01:06:57.500 but it's racist
01:06:58.160 and they're stopping 0.96
01:06:58.900 black people
01:06:59.380 I'm white 0.82
01:07:00.960 and I was stopped
01:07:01.700 in Liverpool
01:07:02.100 more than anyone
01:07:02.880 I don't think
01:07:03.940 there was anyone
01:07:04.360 in the country
01:07:04.800 that was stopped
01:07:05.300 as much as me
01:07:05.960 and the mayor's side
01:07:07.200 police will know this
01:07:07.800 so I'm not exaggerating
01:07:08.620 I was constantly stopped
01:07:09.580 I was harassed by them
01:07:11.020 but it was
01:07:11.600 a proportionate measure
01:07:13.400 so the black community 0.68
01:07:14.620 for example
01:07:15.040 in London
01:07:15.440 need to get behind
01:07:17.020 the police
01:07:17.400 and support policing
01:07:20.000 support stopping
01:07:20.920 search
01:07:21.780 support disrupting
01:07:23.640 and if they stop 0.93
01:07:24.300 a black kid 0.98
01:07:24.820 ten times a day 0.96
01:07:26.380 then if he's affiliated
01:07:28.760 to gangs
01:07:29.340 then it's justified
01:07:31.100 it's proportionate
01:07:32.440 otherwise
01:07:32.820 that's deterring him
01:07:35.280 from carrying
01:07:35.880 an handgun
01:07:36.760 a firearm
01:07:38.240 or perhaps a knife
01:07:39.900 do you understand
01:07:40.840 what I'm saying
01:07:41.240 so if any of the
01:07:42.960 London black community
01:07:44.360 are watching this
01:07:45.700 they need to change
01:07:46.360 their approach
01:07:46.820 their kids are being killed 1.00
01:07:48.420 black on black 1.00
01:07:49.840 gang crime 0.93
01:07:50.420 in London
01:07:50.760 is rife
01:07:51.180 and I don't even
01:07:52.480 blame the kids
01:07:52.980 I blame the parents
01:07:53.780 and I blame the community
01:07:54.620 I blame the MPs
01:07:55.480 and I blame the councillors
01:07:56.380 because they're all
01:07:57.440 do I love the police?
01:07:59.760 probably not
01:08:00.240 there's certain police officers
01:08:01.340 that I don't trust
01:08:02.040 there's certain police forces
01:08:02.920 that I don't trust
01:08:03.640 there's some I like
01:08:04.700 better than others
01:08:05.280 do you know what I mean?
01:08:06.280 I've had quite a bit
01:08:06.960 of support of the police
01:08:07.760 since I've got out
01:08:08.300 so it doesn't mean
01:08:09.820 I'm pro-police
01:08:10.520 and I love the police
01:08:11.120 but I'm saying
01:08:11.720 from my experience
01:08:13.400 and I think I'm more experienced
01:08:15.360 than anyone
01:08:16.220 on this subject
01:08:17.400 to say
01:08:18.300 starting a search works
01:08:19.420 and there needs to be more
01:08:21.100 a lot more support
01:08:22.200 for policing
01:08:22.640 now if the police
01:08:23.960 are stopping someone
01:08:24.580 like yourself
01:08:25.120 ten times a day
01:08:25.860 whether you're white
01:08:26.900 black
01:08:27.080 whatever you may be 0.62
01:08:27.740 and you're not
01:08:28.140 affiliated to crime
01:08:28.860 then yeah
01:08:29.740 the MPs need to come on
01:08:31.420 down on the police
01:08:32.480 like a ton of bricks
01:08:33.120 and challenge them
01:08:33.920 why are you stopping
01:08:34.400 this person
01:08:34.820 he's not affiliated to crime
01:08:35.780 it's just the odd stop
01:08:37.140 because you fit the description
01:08:38.580 or because you fit that profile
01:08:39.980 profiling as well
01:08:41.000 works
01:08:41.360 it's massively effective
01:08:42.500 like if I was walking
01:08:43.940 around Liverpool
01:08:44.400 in a trackie
01:08:45.180 with a bald head
01:08:46.960 or a cap
01:08:47.420 and the police
01:08:48.180 stopped me
01:08:48.480 it's just 1.00
01:08:49.060 it's tough shit 0.99
01:08:49.840 I fit the 0.99
01:08:50.620 profile of the people
01:08:52.340 who are committing the crime
01:08:53.220 and if an area
01:08:54.560 in London for example 0.93
01:08:55.540 if it's black on black crime 0.99
01:08:57.220 black people are going 1.00
01:08:57.880 to get stopped 1.00
01:08:58.280 and you need to accept that
01:09:00.400 as one of the consequences
01:09:02.140 of gun crime
01:09:04.000 and to reduce
01:09:05.320 in order to reduce
01:09:06.240 gun and knife crime
01:09:07.120 there needs to be more
01:09:08.020 stopping search
01:09:08.580 and the community
01:09:09.080 needs to get behind it
01:09:09.880 and that's where any community
01:09:10.940 even white communities
01:09:11.660 in Liverpool
01:09:12.060 I've seen one where
01:09:13.720 someone was getting stopped
01:09:14.420 you probably weren't a gang member
01:09:15.360 by Diazda
01:09:16.360 and the woman ran over 1.00
01:09:17.860 and grabbed the policeman
01:09:18.520 I'm like go on run
01:09:19.680 and I think
01:09:20.260 Liverpool's a totally different
01:09:23.040 kettle of fish
01:09:24.240 but one of the other things
01:09:25.520 I want to mention
01:09:26.460 as well as
01:09:27.140 I support stopping search
01:09:29.360 and I believe it's effective
01:09:30.220 in saving kids lives
01:09:31.700 saving the lives of young people
01:09:32.980 and reducing violent crime
01:09:34.060 so people need to decide
01:09:35.820 what they want
01:09:36.280 they are the one
01:09:36.820 to reduce crime
01:09:38.200 and support the police
01:09:39.200 in doing so
01:09:40.300 or they can be anti-police
01:09:41.640 and anti-stop and search
01:09:42.460 and they'll continue
01:09:43.360 to get the results
01:09:44.020 what they're getting
01:09:44.460 which is numerous stabbings
01:09:46.220 numerous shootings
01:09:46.860 and more and more people
01:09:47.900 if you're a gang member
01:09:49.140 and your MPs
01:09:52.080 are going against
01:09:53.400 stopping search
01:09:53.920 that's going to give you
01:09:54.920 more confidence
01:09:55.700 to carry a gun
01:09:56.780 or to carry a knife
01:09:57.480 because you're going to think
01:09:58.660 the prospect of being stopped
01:09:59.840 is reduced
01:10:00.540 as a result of the pressure
01:10:02.280 being put on the police
01:10:03.000 not to stop you
01:10:03.560 do you see what I'm saying
01:10:04.360 so it's going to create
01:10:05.420 more people carrying weapons
01:10:06.580 whereas when I was
01:10:07.980 involved in crime
01:10:08.980 being stopped
01:10:10.680 by the police
01:10:11.120 was a massive deterrent
01:10:12.160 in carrying a weapon
01:10:12.920 do you know what I mean
01:10:13.920 so the only other thing
01:10:15.360 I want to cover as well
01:10:16.260 I don't know if there's
01:10:16.900 anything else before
01:10:17.640 no I was going to ask you
01:10:18.900 something else actually
01:10:19.720 which is
01:10:20.320 you know
01:10:21.440 we're having this
01:10:22.300 we're really grateful
01:10:23.200 to have you on
01:10:23.840 and I look forward
01:10:24.960 to seeing how the work
01:10:26.020 you're now doing
01:10:26.700 helps kids
01:10:27.420 and all of that
01:10:28.380 but I just
01:10:29.560 I can't help but think
01:10:30.920 like
01:10:31.180 we are a first world country
01:10:32.860 Britain
01:10:33.240 in the 21st century
01:10:35.020 it's 2022
01:10:35.800 and we're talking about
01:10:37.860 young people in our country
01:10:39.140 stabbing each other to death 0.80
01:10:40.520 shooting each other with guns 1.00
01:10:41.740 like 0.98
01:10:42.560 that's not normal man
01:10:43.740 it's not
01:10:44.420 it's not normal
01:10:45.480 how do we
01:10:46.320 how are we going to solve that
01:10:47.460 as a society
01:10:48.140 how are we going to
01:10:48.880 how are we going to get to a point
01:10:50.080 where we're not having
01:10:51.220 to have this conversation
01:10:52.260 look
01:10:52.880 you're never going to eradicate
01:10:54.440 violent crime
01:10:55.700 you're never going to eradicate it
01:10:58.040 but
01:10:58.300 you can reduce it
01:10:59.460 significantly
01:11:00.080 and
01:11:00.960 I
01:11:01.760 I'm not just saying this
01:11:02.980 I've shouted this
01:11:04.200 for over a year
01:11:04.800 I strongly believe
01:11:06.620 I'm confident
01:11:07.340 I've got the solution
01:11:08.560 not to eradicate it
01:11:10.440 but to reduce it
01:11:12.260 significantly
01:11:12.980 and it's aimed at the young people
01:11:14.980 who are the next generation
01:11:16.040 who are involved in this stuff
01:11:17.320 it's not aimed at the older ones
01:11:18.340 because they're more
01:11:18.960 harder to reform
01:11:20.240 the more ingrained
01:11:21.600 a behaviour becomes
01:11:22.700 the more harder it is to
01:11:24.080 de-radicalise
01:11:25.660 and divert you
01:11:26.280 but
01:11:26.480 I believe I've got the solution
01:11:28.180 but it's very controversial
01:11:29.480 it's something different
01:11:31.080 and it's something much
01:11:32.520 going to attract
01:11:33.940 a lot of criticism
01:11:34.760 what I'm asking people
01:11:37.020 is
01:11:37.440 allow it to take its course
01:11:39.720 and look at the end result
01:11:41.060 it's a means to an end
01:11:43.560 the means being used
01:11:44.860 is massively controversial
01:11:46.160 the language used
01:11:47.020 is
01:11:47.340 inappropriate
01:11:48.620 it's not
01:11:49.340 all the people I'm speaking to
01:11:50.960 all the parents
01:11:51.520 are saying
01:11:51.860 yeah
01:11:52.060 this is what we need
01:11:53.400 we need this
01:11:54.000 because this is what they listen to
01:11:55.180 do you know what I mean
01:11:55.920 the mentors that we're going to be using
01:11:57.280 and your average mentor
01:11:58.580 I don't want to give too many
01:12:01.080 tactics and strategies away
01:12:02.540 because everyone says
01:12:03.340 what's your solution
01:12:04.560 and I'm never going to tell them
01:12:05.700 because then they'll go and implement it
01:12:07.380 do you know what I mean
01:12:08.420 like there's a guy who's doing a programme
01:12:09.880 what I'm going to be doing
01:12:11.160 and he's tried to replicate it
01:12:14.200 and do it himself now
01:12:15.040 but it'll never work
01:12:16.080 because he hasn't got
01:12:16.760 what it takes
01:12:17.880 I'm not academically clever
01:12:19.120 but I know
01:12:20.080 I can resolve this issue
01:12:22.600 I don't mean resolve
01:12:23.920 in the sense of eradicate it
01:12:25.020 but I can reduce it
01:12:25.820 significantly
01:12:26.700 and I'm asking people just to
01:12:28.180 don't look at the means
01:12:29.900 or the tactics I'm using
01:12:31.020 and don't criticise that
01:12:32.320 look at the end result
01:12:33.740 if I can
01:12:34.460 get 75% of people
01:12:36.660 on the programme
01:12:37.200 if I can reform them
01:12:38.160 have them reformed
01:12:39.360 then
01:12:40.260 the means
01:12:41.340 ought to be irrelevant
01:12:42.240 do you see where I'm coming from
01:12:44.520 it sort of depends
01:12:45.960 on the means
01:12:46.460 I suppose
01:12:47.020 yeah obviously
01:12:47.460 it's not going to be unlawful
01:12:48.560 but it's going to be
01:12:49.600 a professional
01:12:50.880 look at them
01:12:51.360 and go
01:12:51.560 put their hands up
01:12:53.640 there was one investor
01:12:54.680 that was deterred
01:12:55.700 because
01:12:56.740 I called one of the kids 1.00
01:12:58.460 a little bastard 1.00
01:12:58.980 so he said 1.00
01:13:00.360 no I don't want to
01:13:01.660 put my name to that
01:13:02.300 why me
01:13:03.260 they're calling them 0.99
01:13:03.680 a little bastard 0.99
01:13:04.200 and I'm sure they've been 1.00
01:13:05.060 called worse
01:13:05.500 they're shooting 0.94
01:13:06.420 and stabbing people 0.92
01:13:07.040 they're flying around 0.99
01:13:07.860 with guns
01:13:08.220 they're taking people
01:13:09.240 out of cars
01:13:09.680 at night point
01:13:10.140 and you're
01:13:11.140 saying calling them 1.00
01:13:12.420 a little bastard 0.99
01:13:13.020 is inappropriate 1.00
01:13:14.740 people
01:13:15.940 normal people
01:13:17.240 and professionals
01:13:17.860 youth workers
01:13:18.540 psychologists
01:13:19.600 criminologists
01:13:20.360 demand their approach
01:13:22.140 if they've got the solution
01:13:23.920 go and apply it
01:13:25.140 and reduce the issue
01:13:27.000 but they haven't
01:13:27.620 they're all scratching their heads
01:13:28.700 what do we do about knife crime
01:13:29.840 well don't criticize me
01:13:31.500 until you see the outcome
01:13:32.740 the program
01:13:33.780 when I run a pilot
01:13:34.680 I'm trying to
01:13:35.260 get funding
01:13:36.300 the pilot's going to cost me
01:13:37.500 12,000 pounds
01:13:38.300 to run for three months
01:13:39.200 and
01:13:40.500 in order for me to get funding
01:13:42.200 I need to run a pilot scheme
01:13:43.860 what I'm doing
01:13:44.480 what I'm going to be implementing
01:13:45.860 and get an outcome evaluation
01:13:47.840 so what are the results
01:13:49.180 did it achieve the intended results
01:13:50.940 and how many people were reformed
01:13:52.780 and I want to reform
01:13:54.100 a minimum of 75%
01:13:55.800 of people
01:13:56.660 that complete the program
01:13:57.760 I'm saying
01:13:59.140 I'm giving them
01:13:59.640 more or less guarantee
01:14:00.480 75% of people
01:14:02.400 who come through this program
01:14:03.460 and complete it
01:14:04.420 will reform
01:14:05.520 will be reformed
01:14:06.540 now
01:14:07.280 I want to run the pilot scheme
01:14:08.780 in this city
01:14:09.640 in the north
01:14:10.140 and
01:14:11.220 it's
01:14:12.140 it's 12,000 pounds
01:14:15.780 to run
01:14:16.020 one of the things
01:14:16.960 I've done
01:14:17.220 I've set up
01:14:17.600 a GoFundMe
01:14:18.140 where people
01:14:19.060 automatically look
01:14:19.920 and think
01:14:20.220 GoFundMe
01:14:20.860 it's a scam
01:14:21.300 ex-criminal
01:14:22.380 he's this
01:14:22.940 he's that
01:14:23.260 he's using it
01:14:23.740 I don't know
01:14:24.480 what they think
01:14:24.880 I'm using it for
01:14:25.420 to set up another problem
01:14:26.300 maybe
01:14:26.560 which is not the case
01:14:27.360 but people
01:14:28.360 automatically assume
01:14:29.640 the worst
01:14:30.000 and it's not
01:14:30.720 I've got major scrutiny
01:14:31.820 on me
01:14:32.080 I've got a lot of scrutiny
01:14:32.860 there's a lot of eyes
01:14:33.540 watching me
01:14:33.940 so
01:14:34.100 if I was to fail
01:14:35.640 on this program
01:14:36.240 then it's only me
01:14:37.720 that's
01:14:39.240 going to get the backlash
01:14:40.460 you understand what I'm saying
01:14:41.320 but
01:14:41.500 I'm confident at work
01:14:42.900 I'm more than confident
01:14:43.740 and that's what I want to try
01:14:44.960 and implement
01:14:45.380 to show
01:14:46.340 I don't want to be speaking about it
01:14:48.440 I want to put it into practice
01:14:49.520 and get it done
01:14:50.800 and show and demonstrate
01:14:51.660 and the councillors
01:14:52.740 I've spoke to
01:14:53.240 the councillors
01:14:53.760 I've had a few meetings
01:14:54.660 with different councillors
01:14:55.540 and they're saying
01:14:57.160 ok yeah
01:14:57.980 if it works
01:15:00.000 we're happy to back you
01:15:01.480 do you know what I mean
01:15:02.480 and then the funding will come
01:15:03.880 then I can go for
01:15:04.700 government funding
01:15:05.600 then I can go for
01:15:06.200 private investment
01:15:07.020 even investors are saying
01:15:08.520 there's many investors
01:15:09.240 that are saying
01:15:09.600 we won't put our name to it now
01:15:10.720 because we don't know the outcome
01:15:12.340 you know
01:15:13.260 I could go and get loads of kids
01:15:14.940 and recruit them back into gangs
01:15:16.000 for all I know
01:15:16.540 or send them out in the streets
01:15:18.160 with loads of guns
01:15:18.780 who knows
01:15:19.280 people don't want to take
01:15:20.840 the risk in you
01:15:21.480 until they see the outcome
01:15:23.800 yeah you've got to prove it
01:15:25.300 100%
01:15:25.940 and that's what I'm trying to do
01:15:26.800 so that's why I'm trying to
01:15:27.640 raise the 12,000 pounds
01:15:28.700 to run it
01:15:29.080 it works out
01:15:30.100 less than 27 pounds
01:15:31.560 70 per kid
01:15:32.300 less than 28 pounds
01:15:33.220 per day per kid
01:15:34.040 and out of that money
01:15:35.300 out of that 28 pounds
01:15:36.380 they're getting a gym membership
01:15:37.260 they're getting a personal trainer
01:15:39.540 it's all that activities covered
01:15:41.400 it's the rent of the classroom
01:15:42.620 it's the work booklets
01:15:43.680 it's getting them to
01:15:45.220 and from the classroom
01:15:45.960 everything is covered
01:15:46.760 the food
01:15:47.760 so they'll be fed as well
01:15:49.400 so it's covering
01:15:50.200 28 pounds a day
01:15:51.240 is a minimum
01:15:52.560 I'm not taking a wage
01:15:53.420 out of that
01:15:53.740 no one's taking a wage
01:15:54.540 people are going to be volunteering
01:15:55.440 but 28 pounds a day
01:15:56.540 is going to be minimum
01:15:57.920 the lawyer who's volunteering
01:15:59.200 he's not getting paid
01:16:00.220 everyone's volunteering
01:16:01.520 their own time
01:16:02.860 and effort
01:16:04.640 to this programme
01:16:05.740 because some people
01:16:06.720 are confident in it
01:16:07.780 do you know what I mean
01:16:08.160 and I'm 100%
01:16:09.840 that it'll work
01:16:10.980 there's no doubt about it
01:16:12.200 I recruited kids into gangs
01:16:13.860 I've radicalised kids
01:16:14.740 and another thing
01:16:16.120 that happened to me
01:16:17.000 I was radicalised in prison
01:16:17.980 by people who were affiliated
01:16:20.000 to Al-Qaeda
01:16:20.560 and that strategy
01:16:22.760 what was used
01:16:23.960 to radicalise me
01:16:24.760 I then went on
01:16:26.160 to use that strategy
01:16:26.840 with kids on the street
01:16:27.540 and I want to still
01:16:28.280 continue to use that
01:16:29.300 but for the opposite effect
01:16:30.220 so what you've got to do
01:16:32.260 effectively
01:16:32.700 is de-radicalise kids
01:16:34.440 so they've got an ideology
01:16:36.840 which is ingrained in them
01:16:37.820 you've got to
01:16:38.660 de-radicalise
01:16:39.420 and change that ideology
01:16:40.480 change that mindset
01:16:41.240 change that way of thinking
01:16:42.200 do you know what I mean
01:16:43.220 it's the point of just
01:16:43.760 putting them on a programme
01:16:44.580 and keeping them manageable
01:16:45.220 for three months
01:16:45.820 I want to make sure
01:16:47.680 that when they finish
01:16:48.400 the programme
01:16:48.800 and complete the programme
01:16:49.640 that they're going to stay
01:16:50.480 on that right path
01:16:51.060 and it's about changing
01:16:51.820 the mindset
01:16:52.220 changing the way of thinking
01:16:53.160 and you know
01:16:54.520 that's what I want to
01:16:55.360 the tactics
01:16:56.380 and strategies
01:16:57.300 what Al-Qaeda used
01:16:58.200 to groom me
01:16:59.240 and radicalise me
01:17:00.840 well one of the bonus questions
01:17:02.360 we'll ask for our locals only
01:17:03.980 will be about that
01:17:05.180 but for now
01:17:06.280 we wish you the best
01:17:07.020 of luck with it
01:17:07.620 we'll put all the links
01:17:08.800 in the video
01:17:09.360 so that people can follow up
01:17:10.880 we want you to succeed with it
01:17:12.900 we hope that you are able
01:17:13.780 to do that of course
01:17:14.520 yes definitely
01:17:14.940 thanks for your time man
01:17:16.260 we really appreciate it
01:17:17.360 before we let you go
01:17:18.960 we've got a couple of questions
01:17:20.380 for our locals only
01:17:21.200 which we'll ask you in a second
01:17:22.260 but we always finish the interview
01:17:23.840 with the same question
01:17:24.700 which is
01:17:25.200 what's the one thing
01:17:25.940 we're not talking about
01:17:26.920 that we really should be
01:17:28.000 use yourselves
01:17:31.040 or do you mean society
01:17:31.880 society
01:17:32.300 in respect of what
01:17:33.800 crime
01:17:34.180 anything at all
01:17:34.960 anything you want to talk about
01:17:36.280 anything you want to mention
01:17:37.200 I don't know
01:17:38.000 I don't really understand
01:17:39.240 stocks and shares
01:17:39.880 so the only thing I do understand
01:17:40.860 is crime and
01:17:42.040 things like that
01:17:43.080 so what
01:17:43.580 don't people know about
01:17:45.400 crime
01:17:46.000 prison
01:17:46.540 policing
01:17:47.160 that you think they really should
01:17:48.580 what people need to know
01:17:49.560 is prison
01:17:50.080 doesn't work
01:17:51.760 prison is just a warehouse
01:17:52.980 what contains criminals
01:17:55.220 until they're released
01:17:56.220 it does not work
01:17:56.940 it does not rehabilitate
01:17:57.860 prison can work
01:17:58.800 it can be effective
01:17:59.940 if the approach is changed
01:18:01.600 we're in prison
01:18:02.080 there needs to be effective
01:18:02.940 rehabilitation
01:18:03.580 but that's another subject
01:18:05.520 for another day
01:18:06.160 secondly
01:18:07.360 prisons are needed
01:18:08.280 to support
01:18:08.820 I support more prisons
01:18:09.920 and longer prison centres
01:18:11.240 for certain offenders
01:18:12.860 but
01:18:13.120 it's not working
01:18:14.300 it's just a university
01:18:15.900 for criminals
01:18:16.480 someone can go in
01:18:17.240 a shoplifter
01:18:18.120 and come out
01:18:18.540 a drug dealer
01:18:19.020 because they acquire
01:18:19.980 more skills
01:18:20.540 and they meet
01:18:20.900 more connections
01:18:21.500 that's where I met
01:18:22.940 a lot of my connections
01:18:23.700 in prison
01:18:24.120 and the other thing
01:18:26.120 is
01:18:26.420 about policing
01:18:27.620 I think
01:18:28.240 there's a lot of police
01:18:29.920 that I don't trust
01:18:30.540 there's certain police forces
01:18:31.360 that I think are dodgy as hell
01:18:32.600 but as a whole
01:18:34.000 society needs to get behind
01:18:35.780 the police
01:18:36.140 they need to support
01:18:36.960 the police
01:18:37.320 and they need to support
01:18:39.040 and promote
01:18:40.780 stop and search 0.99
01:18:41.740 all this bullshit 1.00
01:18:43.580 that's saying 1.00
01:18:44.040 no no
01:18:44.340 we can't be stopping
01:18:45.040 these kids
01:18:45.460 it'll save lives
01:18:46.940 it'll save the kids life
01:18:47.900 because if they're carrying
01:18:48.480 a gun on a knife
01:18:49.280 they're at an increased risk
01:18:51.480 of them being harmed
01:18:53.240 themselves
01:18:53.680 do you understand
01:18:54.660 what I'm saying
01:18:55.000 so stop and search
01:18:56.240 and effective policing
01:18:58.300 does save lives
01:18:59.500 100%
01:19:00.080 and you know
01:19:01.140 these people
01:19:01.660 that are losing
01:19:02.140 kids left right and centre
01:19:03.140 and losing family members
01:19:04.120 brothers
01:19:04.480 fathers
01:19:05.240 if that individual
01:19:06.760 that perpetrator
01:19:07.420 would have got stopped
01:19:07.980 by the police
01:19:08.480 then
01:19:09.520 maybe
01:19:10.700 the chances are
01:19:11.820 he wouldn't have went on
01:19:12.400 to commit that murder
01:19:13.100 or to commit that
01:19:13.980 assault
01:19:14.820 where people are
01:19:15.660 seriously harmed
01:19:16.340 in hospitals
01:19:18.240 so
01:19:18.560 I think society
01:19:19.800 needs to be more
01:19:20.660 supportive of the police
01:19:22.100 Sikaris 1.00
01:19:24.020 it's been an
01:19:24.880 absolutely brilliant interview
01:19:26.120 if people want to
01:19:27.560 understand the work
01:19:29.260 that you do
01:19:29.740 if people want to
01:19:30.740 access the work
01:19:31.680 that you do
01:19:32.080 where's the best way
01:19:32.860 to find that online
01:19:33.800 they can follow me
01:19:35.580 on my twitter account
01:19:36.360 and once the programme
01:19:37.820 is implemented
01:19:38.660 then there'll be
01:19:39.720 all the links
01:19:40.240 I'll be putting on that
01:19:41.500 and I'll also
01:19:41.980 send you the other links
01:19:43.380 to the website
01:19:44.400 to the company
01:19:45.280 that's going to be
01:19:45.840 overseeing the programme
01:19:47.460 and implementing it
01:19:48.680 so you can add that
01:19:49.980 when you upload
01:19:51.300 all the links to it
01:19:52.100 but people can follow
01:19:53.200 my twitter account
01:19:53.900 which is
01:19:54.460 Sikaris McGrath
01:19:55.420 and I'll give you
01:19:56.060 the link to add to it
01:19:57.580 but if there's anyone
01:19:58.240 interested in
01:19:59.000 the contributing
01:19:59.980 to the programme
01:20:00.520 or investing in it
01:20:01.380 then feel free
01:20:02.640 to get in touch with me
01:20:03.360 it's been a wonderful interview
01:20:06.220 thank you so much
01:20:07.260 for coming on
01:20:07.800 and thanks to you
01:20:08.980 for watching
01:20:09.620 all our episodes
01:20:10.860 always go out
01:20:11.780 Wednesdays
01:20:12.500 and Sundays
01:20:13.480 7pm UK time
01:20:15.160 Raw shows
01:20:16.100 Thursday
01:20:16.740 Friday
01:20:17.320 and Saturday
01:20:18.120 and it's also available
01:20:19.880 as a podcast
01:20:20.860 for those of you
01:20:21.560 who like your
01:20:22.100 Trigonometry on the go
01:20:23.120 take care
01:20:24.060 and see you soon guys
01:20:25.420 I was deeply
01:20:28.280 deeply radicalised
01:20:29.200 because if I
01:20:29.660 never got out
01:20:30.860 and went back to gangs
01:20:31.760 then maybe I could have
01:20:32.900 been the next
01:20:33.460 shoe bomber
01:20:34.400 Richard Reid
01:20:34.960 who knows
01:20:35.460 I could have brought
01:20:36.000 a plane down
01:20:37.280 a train down
01:20:37.840 I don't know
01:20:38.720 what perhaps
01:20:40.160 could have happened
01:20:40.640 Broadway's smash hit
01:20:47.680 The Neil Diamond Musical
01:20:48.980 A Beautiful Noise
01:20:50.340 is coming to Toronto
01:20:51.860 the true story
01:20:52.880 of a kid from Brooklyn
01:20:53.940 destined for something more
01:20:55.480 featuring all the songs
01:20:56.620 you love
01:20:57.260 including America
01:20:58.360 Forever in Blue Jeans
01:20:59.700 and Sweet Caroline
01:21:00.880 like Jersey Boys 0.86
01:21:02.320 and Beautiful
01:21:02.960 the next musical
01:21:04.120 mega hit is here
01:21:05.260 The Neil Diamond Musical
01:21:06.760 A Beautiful Noise
01:21:08.120 April 28th
01:21:09.180 through June 7th
01:21:10.160 2026
01:21:11.120 The Princess of Wales Theatre
01:21:12.740 Get tickets at
01:21:13.880 Murbish.com
01:21:15.020 andena
01:21:15.540 on Netflix
01:21:17.380 After years
01:21:17.820 on thehigh
01:21:18.720 a2020
01:21:19.260 The Princess of Wales
01:21:21.420 will visit
01:21:22.020 the monsieur
01:21:22.880 who is the people
01:21:26.040 who cares
01:21:38.700 and have been
01:21:39.260 able