TRIGGERnometry - ＂I Was a Violent Criminal, Now I'm Helping Stop Violent Crime＂

00:00:00.000 I was manufacturing the firearms and the ammunition, but having my gun I felt safe.

00:00:05.000 Because if anyone gave me shit, obviously it'd end up coming and I'd end up shooting someone in Birkenhead,

00:00:09.000 and Lisa would think it was, would have pulled out the weapon.

00:00:12.000 He said, what are you going to do with that? So I just thought, you know what, fuck it up.

00:00:15.000 I just woke up and we're in the mood, so I shot him.

00:00:18.000 But lucky, by God's grace, he never died, because if it would have went through his shit a bit to the left, he would have been dead.

00:00:24.000 I was in my cell and I was watching a programme on Liverpool,

00:00:27.000 on a case in Liverpool where a young kid was shot,

00:00:31.000 and I think that was the turning point in my life when I thought, nah, what the fuck, you know, what the fuck's happening?

00:00:38.000 I knew about it beforehand, it never bothered me, but when you watch the programme,

00:00:41.000 and see his parents, and I know a lot of people don't believe me and say, oh no, it's bullshit,

00:00:46.000 you've got no empathy, so why don't you be bothered about that? But something clicked.

00:00:51.000 When I watched that programme that was televised, I knew about it, it never fazed me, it didn't bother me.

00:00:55.000 It was just collateral, I used to view that as collateral damage, and then when you watch the programme,

00:01:00.000 and see the shit his parents went through, and his family, I used to put hundreds and hundreds of weapons on the street.

00:01:09.000 Probably put over a thousand weapons, I didn't keep calculating how many it was,

00:01:13.000 but probably put over a thousand weapons on the streets.

00:01:16.000 And even though it weren't my weapons that don't make crime, it's still, you know, imagine what are the crimes?

00:01:24.000 And I thought, nah, that's not, it's scum, you're peddling evil.

00:01:28.000 Are you tired of using bulky old wallets, giving you a bulge where you don't want it to be?

00:01:43.000 My old wallet was massive, so it brought all the ladies to the yard,

00:01:48.000 which was a huge distraction and got in the way of my esteemed work on trigonometry.

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00:02:54.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:02:58.000 I'm Constantin Kissin.

00:02:59.000 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:03:05.000 Our brilliant guest today is a former gang member who is now working to get kids out of gangs, Sakaris McGrath.

00:03:10.000 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:03:11.000 All right, how are you? Okay.

00:03:13.000 It's good to have you on, man.

00:03:14.000 Yeah.

00:03:15.000 Before we get into various stuff we want to talk to you about, obviously crime, prison, stop and search, a bunch of other stuff.

00:03:23.000 But tell everybody what your journey through life has been, because it's unlike pretty much anyone that I've ever met, frankly.

00:03:29.000 It's a bit of a colourful past.

00:03:31.000 At the age of 15 I got involved in petty crime from the age of 21.

00:03:35.000 That escalated to gangs and firearms, weapons.

00:03:39.000 And then I got an eight year prison sentence in 2004 for firearms and a shooting.

00:03:46.000 And then I was released in 2009.

00:03:49.000 I got a gang injunction put on me in 2011 by Meerside Police.

00:03:55.000 Then 2012 I moved to Lancashire to get away from the gang injunction.

00:04:00.000 And they put an operation on me, Lancashire Police, I think in 2014.

00:04:07.000 In 2016 I was arrested by Lancashire Police and I was jailed for eight and a half years later on that year.

00:04:15.000 And then I was released in 2020.

00:04:18.000 So I've served another small few prison sentences for petty crime when I was a kid, but I've served two significant ones.

00:04:28.000 So you were in prison two years ago?

00:04:30.000 Just over, yeah.

00:04:32.000 I was released in July 2020, yeah.

00:04:34.000 Yeah.

00:04:35.000 I was released from open conditions, whereas on my first sentence I was in high security, I was in category A on that one.

00:04:42.000 And coming back to the beginning, you say you got involved in petty crime.

00:04:46.000 How does one get involved in petty crime?

00:04:48.000 How does that happen?

00:04:49.000 I think it was my upbringing, just the area I was living, my peers, the people I was around.

00:04:55.000 You know, everyone I knew back then, everyone I mixed with, every single person, bar one,

00:05:02.000 went on to lead a life of crime, went on to prisons.

00:05:06.000 There was one Jewish guy that I mixed with back then who went on to be successful.

00:05:12.000 But apart from that, everyone went down the route of crime and criminality.

00:05:16.000 Or they ended up getting addicted to drugs, drug addiction or, you know, something detrimental.

00:05:23.000 There's no person that I mixed with other than that one that's made a good life for themselves.

00:05:29.000 And do you think a large part of it is the area that you grew up in?

00:05:32.000 Is it the fact that a lot of these kids maybe don't have dads in the home?

00:05:36.000 Is there something that you could actually say, that is the one thing?

00:05:40.000 Or is it a combination of all of them?

00:05:42.000 I'd say it's a combination of factors, because everyone had a different life.

00:05:44.000 Some people had a dad, some people never.

00:05:46.000 Some people were, parents were skint and he lived in a smelly house, some people never.

00:05:50.000 So it was different, I wouldn't say there was one factor, but I think it was a combination.

00:05:55.000 But I think it was peer influence is a primary factor in leading people astray.

00:06:00.000 Like we started off on motorbikes and then we started, I think I got my first car when I was 11.

00:06:05.000 I could drive when I was 11 years of age.

00:06:07.000 I think the first one was a Chevette, a Vauxhall Chevette.

00:06:10.000 And I was on the streets at 11 years of age.

00:06:13.000 I think the first time I got arrested when I was about 12, driving a motorbike, 13 maybe.

00:06:17.000 But you know, it just goes down spirals and then that was that.

00:06:24.000 But did that not scare you, Sicarius?

00:06:26.000 The fact that you were 13 years old and suddenly there's a police officer there.

00:06:30.000 That would put the fear of God into me as a young kid.

00:06:33.000 The first time I got chased on a moped.

00:06:36.000 There was two of us on it.

00:06:38.000 It was a Vauxhall Cavalier that the police were in, in our field and he chased us.

00:06:42.000 We weren't even a chase because we weren't hardly moving.

00:06:44.000 We were probably doing about 10 miles an hour.

00:06:45.000 So they just come next to us and blocked us off.

00:06:48.000 And they arrested me and took me to the police station and rang my parents.

00:06:51.000 My parents come and got me and that was that.

00:06:54.000 I think I was too young.

00:06:55.000 I weren't like a...

00:06:56.000 The police knew I was just a kid.

00:06:58.000 Even though I was antisocial, I weren't really doing nothing too bad, do you know what I mean?

00:07:03.000 And you say by the age of 21 you'd progressed to gangs and guns at that point?

00:07:09.000 Yeah, firearms.

00:07:10.000 I went to an area down south of Liverpool and bought a load of firearms off of these agents

00:07:18.000 that we knew and then went back to Liverpool.

00:07:20.000 But that was a result of me being bullied by a load of doormen in Liverpool.

00:07:25.000 There was a load of doormen bullying me.

00:07:28.000 They had nightclubs and run doors and that so they were bullying me for money.

00:07:32.000 And in the end I couldn't take no more so I just went and bought a load of firearms,

00:07:35.000 come back and just...

00:07:37.000 That was that.

00:07:38.000 And then from there I just got...

00:07:40.000 I ended up manufacturing and distributing firearms, selling firearms.

00:07:44.000 So I think one thing leads to another but there's always like a gateway offence,

00:07:49.000 there's always a gateway into crime.

00:07:51.000 And mine was petty crime and then the bullying resulted in me getting involved in firearms

00:07:55.000 and gangs for...

00:07:56.000 I think it was primarily in the first instance for my own protection.

00:08:01.000 And then it'd become a habit then, it'd become habitual of behaviour,

00:08:04.000 like carrying a weapon all the time, a firearm all the time.

00:08:07.000 I was...

00:08:08.000 When I got arrested in 2003, there was a firearm next to me bed,

00:08:12.000 a loaded firearm next to me bed.

00:08:14.000 I was arrested in Grange Mountain, Wirral.

00:08:16.000 So it becomes habitual, it becomes normal for me to carry a gun.

00:08:20.000 Sometimes I carry two.

00:08:21.000 I'll just say for, before you ask the question Francis,

00:08:24.000 we have a big American audience and if they're watching this,

00:08:27.000 they're thinking, well guns, you know, we've got guns.

00:08:29.000 But in this country, having firearms, I mean that is a very serious offence.

00:08:33.000 It is 100%.

00:08:34.000 I think it's five year minimum sentence and it is...

00:08:38.000 It's rare. Firearms are common, but they're not as common as knives as such

00:08:45.000 because they're expensive to purchase.

00:08:47.000 They're more difficult to source.

00:08:49.000 Whereas a knife, every kitchen has a knife.

00:08:51.000 But I never used to carry knives, I used to carry guns.

00:08:54.000 And that's what I used to feel comfortable with.

00:08:56.000 I would never have felt comfortable carrying a knife, it weren't for me.

00:08:59.000 But I used to, you know, I used to feel safe carrying a firearm.

00:09:05.000 Sikouris, you use the word bullying.

00:09:08.000 Now, I don't think you mean bullying how a lot of people think about it.

00:09:13.000 Where you get, for instance, a lot of people think bullying is people

00:09:16.000 making nasty comments to them, not being very nice.

00:09:19.000 What do you mean by bullying?

00:09:21.000 Bullying consists of many things, you know what I mean?

00:09:23.000 But bullying can be in the playground.

00:09:25.000 But the bullying I'm referring to was, I think I was about 20 years of age at the time.

00:09:31.000 And these group of men, fully grown men, doormen,

00:09:35.000 they were both three cars, pulled up to me and took my car off me.

00:09:38.000 Then I went and met them that night, and they kidnapped me,

00:09:41.000 and were trying to chop my thumb off.

00:09:42.000 It was only a threat to scare me, but they put the shit up me.

00:09:45.000 I was terrified, I was petrified.

00:09:47.000 I wouldn't go out the door, I felt suicidal.

00:09:50.000 I went to the police, I remember it was a shoebrook police station,

00:09:52.000 and the police didn't give a shit.

00:09:54.000 In other words, they were saying, you deserve what you get.

00:09:56.000 They never said that, but in their own words, you understand what I'm saying?

00:09:59.000 Because I was a pest, but I was only a petty criminal, very petty criminal.

00:10:04.000 And as a result, there was no one that could help me.

00:10:07.000 So in the end, as a human being, I was at cracking point,

00:10:11.000 and I thought, am I going to defend myself against these people?

00:10:15.000 So I just went and bought a load of guns.

00:10:18.000 But I got different people to throw in the pot,

00:10:22.000 and then I purchased them cheaper, and then charged them a bit extra,

00:10:27.000 and then took my own fuel out of it, do you know what I mean?

00:10:29.000 Because I never had the money to purchase them at the time.

00:10:31.000 So I wangled it in a way that I come out with a few guns.

00:10:34.000 And then from that, we went into manufacturing them.

00:10:36.000 So we went into making them, deactivated them, and would reactivate them,

00:10:41.000 and make the ammunition, and then we'd settle on,

00:10:43.000 and got arrested for that in 2004, I think it was.

00:10:46.000 And I ended up getting eight years jail altogether.

00:10:49.000 And how easy is it to do that, to take to that process?

00:10:53.000 Because you've just made it sound like it's quite simple.

00:10:55.000 Is it simple, or is it actually, does it require quite a bit of talent, know-how, et cetera?

00:11:00.000 It's like saying, it's building a house, simple.

00:11:03.000 To a builder and a bricklayer, it's simple.

00:11:07.000 But to me and you, it's difficult.

00:11:09.000 Whereas manufacturing firearms, and building firearms, and reactivating them,

00:11:13.000 it's simple to someone that knows what they're doing.

00:11:16.000 Just like a mechanic, it's simple to repair the car,

00:11:19.000 but I can't repair the car, if you understand what I'm saying.

00:11:22.000 Back then, I had my own big unit, a big factory.

00:11:25.000 And back then, I think I'd done it for three years, two, three years.

00:11:30.000 It was easy, but I used to enjoy doing it.

00:11:33.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:11:34.000 Sometimes I'd do 10 a day, sometimes I'd do 15 in a day.

00:11:37.000 It depends who we are, they help me on what order they are.

00:11:39.000 But, you know, it become habitual, but it all stemmed from the bullying.

00:11:45.000 I wasn't a full shilling, I was gone in the head.

00:11:48.000 I think the bullying pushed me over the end.

00:11:50.000 It pushed me over the edge,

00:11:51.000 with a combination of other factors, what happened earlier on in my childhood.

00:11:54.000 The bullying was destroyed, I broke the camel.

00:11:58.000 That made me just go, and there was nothing there in my head.

00:12:01.000 I never had no rational thinking.

00:12:03.000 I was deluded, I was gone.

00:12:05.000 I was hearing voices, I was absolutely, I was fucked.

00:12:08.000 There was no part of you that was sitting there going,

00:12:10.000 I'm now manufacturing 15 firearms a day.

00:12:13.000 Sometimes it was 10, it wasn't always 15.

00:12:15.000 You know, I'm just saying on average it was quite a lot.

00:12:17.000 No, what I'm saying, the number is not what I'm getting at.

00:12:20.000 I'm getting at like, I've gone from I'm a petty criminal,

00:12:24.000 to I went and bought a load of guns, I carry a gun, I have a gun by my bed,

00:12:29.000 and I'm making guns and selling them.

00:12:31.000 Like, was that, were you ever present to the scale of like what you were doing?

00:12:35.000 No, I was mixed up in it.

00:12:37.000 My head was gone, I was deluded.

00:12:39.000 But even when I'd be on the toilet, I'd have my gun there, clean on the toilet,

00:12:44.000 and I'd be ejecting the magazine and putting the bullets back in.

00:12:48.000 I was, that's the type of, I never even used to wear gloves.

00:12:50.000 I was that irrational and that reckless.

00:12:52.000 I'd just put the bullets in with my finger.

00:12:54.000 We used to make the ammunition, I used to make the ammunition,

00:12:56.000 we had the press as well.

00:12:58.000 So we'd put the powder in, we'd put the heads on,

00:13:00.000 the primers in the bottom, do you know what I mean?

00:13:02.000 So I was manufacturing the firearms and the ammunition.

00:13:05.000 But having my gun, I felt safe.

00:13:07.000 I'd go anywhere, I'd go near anywhere.

00:13:10.000 I was dating a girl from Birkenhead, Whirl.

00:13:13.000 And back then, the Birkenheaders just want to fight me,

00:13:16.000 because I was from Liverpool.

00:13:18.000 And I weren't a fighter, so having my gun on me

00:13:21.000 used to make me comfortable to go in wherever I want to go.

00:13:25.000 Because if anyone give me shit, obviously,

00:13:27.000 it'd end up coming and I'd end up shooting someone in Birkenhead,

00:13:29.000 and Lisa, I think it was.

00:13:31.000 I ended up speaking to him afterwards and apologising.

00:13:34.000 Obviously, while I was away, I spoke to him on the phone.

00:13:36.000 I spoke to him on the phone.

00:13:37.000 A guy called Gareth.

00:13:38.000 I don't want to give a second name,

00:13:39.000 but it was a guy called Gareth who I went to jail for.

00:13:42.000 I shot him and I think I went through his shoulder

00:13:45.000 and I had his arm or somewhere in that area.

00:13:47.000 Look, he never went through his chest,

00:13:49.000 but I went to jail for shooting him.

00:13:51.000 And the girl I was with at the time

00:13:53.000 ended up dating him while I was in jail.

00:13:55.000 So it was a bit of a bizarre one.

00:13:58.000 You know, she stopped coming up on a visit and then one day I rang her

00:14:02.000 and she's in bed with him.

00:14:04.000 And I spoke to him, I said, put him on.

00:14:06.000 I said, look, you know, what's happened?

00:14:08.000 What's that?

00:14:09.000 He confronted me initially.

00:14:10.000 Him and two of his friends confronted me.

00:14:12.000 They stabbed the tyre on my car.

00:14:14.000 And then when I pulled out the weapon,

00:14:18.000 he said, what are you going to do with that?

00:14:19.000 So I just thought, you know what, fuck it up.

00:14:21.000 I just woke up and we're in the mood.

00:14:23.000 So I shot him.

00:14:24.000 But luckily, by God's grace, he never died

00:14:26.000 because if I would have went through his chest a bit to the left,

00:14:28.000 he would have been dead.

00:14:30.000 So I think it was, you know,

00:14:32.000 it was a blessing in disguise that I got that prison sentence then

00:14:34.000 because if I never went to prison when I did,

00:14:37.000 100% I would have ended up killing someone.

00:14:39.000 Yeah.

00:14:40.000 There was another time when I went to Wade Smith in town

00:14:41.000 in Lapeole City Centre and he had two handguns on me.

00:14:43.000 And, you know, I was wanting to see these doormen.

00:14:46.000 And I wouldn't have thought twice

00:14:48.000 about pulling the guns out and firing at them.

00:14:51.000 And I could have hurt, seriously hurt,

00:14:54.000 or killed innocent people.

00:14:56.000 And, you know, I think back, in retrospect,

00:14:58.000 I think back and think I was,

00:15:01.000 I'm glad that I went to prison when I did.

00:15:04.000 Otherwise, I could have killed someone or multiple people.

00:15:07.000 So, but when you're involved in that,

00:15:09.000 you don't think, you're not thinking straight.

00:15:10.000 Well, I certainly definitely wasn't thinking straight.

00:15:12.000 I weren't thinking rationally.

00:15:14.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:15:15.000 Every day I get up, it was my gun.

00:15:17.000 Where was it?

00:15:18.000 And sometimes the car I'd have,

00:15:20.000 one of the weapons I had was a Beretta.

00:15:23.000 I used to put it in a case and I put the case up the dash.

00:15:26.000 So if the police stopped me,

00:15:27.000 hopefully they wouldn't find it.

00:15:29.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:15:30.000 But it was, I don't know, looking back,

00:15:32.000 it was a bad time in my life.

00:15:34.000 I was, I know I was doing wrong,

00:15:36.000 but I weren't intending to hurt anyone innocent people.

00:15:40.000 It was just unfortunate that the guy,

00:15:43.000 this Gareth guy with his two mates,

00:15:45.000 he'd been on the piss.

00:15:46.000 He was drunk.

00:15:47.000 He seen me, obviously he didn't like me

00:15:49.000 because I was from Liverpool and saying,

00:15:50.000 get off out of state.

00:15:51.000 He was in Leesow and Will.

00:15:53.000 It was just unfortunate that he said what he said

00:15:56.000 and that was that.

00:15:57.000 And I went over to sign and speak him out of it,

00:15:59.000 just said give it a miss.

00:16:00.000 And the next thing he's confronted me.

00:16:01.000 So, you know, I responded wrongly.

00:16:03.000 It weren't right what I'd done.

00:16:04.000 I regret what I'd done,

00:16:05.000 but I'm just glad he never did.

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00:16:37.000 You sound, the way you talk about it,

00:16:40.000 as if you're incredibly paranoid.

00:16:43.000 Do you think that's a lot of a reason

00:16:44.000 why we see kids younger and younger,

00:16:46.000 particularly in places like London,

00:16:48.000 carrying knives?

00:16:49.000 It's because they're all terrified.

00:16:51.000 Yeah, but even...

00:16:53.000 I wouldn't say...

00:16:55.000 I weren't scared of death from my enemies.

00:16:58.000 I was more scared of not having nothing.

00:17:02.000 If you've got something.

00:17:03.000 Like when I had a firearm, for example,

00:17:05.000 I'd feel safe.

00:17:07.000 I wouldn't fear nothing.

00:17:08.000 I wouldn't feel death.

00:17:09.000 I wouldn't...

00:17:10.000 I'd fear the police, don't get me wrong,

00:17:11.000 but when you've got that gun,

00:17:13.000 you don't fear death.

00:17:14.000 Even though there's still a risk you can be killed,

00:17:16.000 you don't foresee the consequence.

00:17:18.000 And without that gun,

00:17:20.000 you're shitting yourself.

00:17:21.000 So I can imagine applying the same logic

00:17:24.000 to the kids who are carrying knives.

00:17:26.000 They're obviously...

00:17:27.000 I think a lot of them are scared.

00:17:28.000 If they see a rival or if they see a...

00:17:30.000 Because a lot of them can't fight,

00:17:31.000 I was the same.

00:17:32.000 So they can't fight.

00:17:33.000 So that's why a lot of them carry the weapons.

00:17:36.000 Because if they haven't got that weapon

00:17:37.000 and they come across their enemies,

00:17:38.000 then they're in trouble.

00:17:40.000 So the fear is you're going to be unprepared

00:17:42.000 and unable to defend yourself.

00:17:44.000 Yeah, something along them lines, yeah.

00:17:45.000 That's right.

00:17:46.000 And then there's different methods of protection.

00:17:48.000 Some people aren't affiliated to gangs,

00:17:50.000 but they think these kids are thinking

00:17:53.000 everyone else is carrying a knife.

00:17:55.000 So I want to carry one because they're scared.

00:17:57.000 And then there's the ones who are affiliated to gangs

00:17:59.000 and have got rival gangs.

00:18:00.000 And they think if you haven't got my knife on me

00:18:03.000 or my gun, whatever they're carrying,

00:18:04.000 then they're going to be in trouble

00:18:06.000 if they come across their rivals,

00:18:07.000 if they come across their adversaries.

00:18:09.000 You know what I mean?

00:18:10.000 So I'd say a vast majority

00:18:12.000 carry it for self-protection

00:18:14.000 for whatever reason,

00:18:15.000 because they've got gang rivals

00:18:16.000 or just because they feel scared

00:18:18.000 or vulnerable.

00:18:19.000 There's numerous factors,

00:18:20.000 but a lot of it does bolt out to protection.

00:18:23.000 And how did you get involved in gangs specifically?

00:18:26.000 Were you like a leader of a gang or...?

00:18:28.000 Not initially, no.

00:18:30.000 Initially, I clinged on to a gang

00:18:32.000 that were fighting with the doorman.

00:18:34.000 So I sort of clinged on to them.

00:18:36.000 I was getting in touch with them

00:18:37.000 and then I ended up selling a few of them guns.

00:18:39.000 So they weren't great guns that I was selling.

00:18:42.000 They were just cheap, shitty guns,

00:18:44.000 but they were still powerful.

00:18:46.000 We used to test them on containers and cars

00:18:48.000 and the metal containers on building sites,

00:18:50.000 they were putting holes in them

00:18:51.000 and they were putting holes in car doors.

00:18:53.000 So you can imagine what they're doing to the body.

00:18:55.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:18:56.000 Did you never think about

00:18:58.000 when you were selling these guns on?

00:19:01.000 Obviously, you know,

00:19:02.000 they'll be used for protection.

00:19:03.000 Most of them won't be used.

00:19:04.000 But you used one yourself.

00:19:06.000 Did you not think, hang on,

00:19:07.000 this could be used to kill someone here?

00:19:09.000 Nah, I didn't think like that.

00:19:10.000 Don't get me wrong.

00:19:11.000 There was once or twice when someone went,

00:19:12.000 they wanted a gun to go and do something

00:19:14.000 and I thought, nah,

00:19:15.000 I don't want to get them fucked up.

00:19:16.000 And there were occasions when I'd refuse

00:19:18.000 to sell a gun to someone.

00:19:20.000 If I thought, even though we weren't asked about

00:19:22.000 who was it and what was...

00:19:23.000 If I thought someone was going to be, like,

00:19:26.000 assassinated with a gun, I wouldn't...

00:19:29.000 That was a bit too much.

00:19:30.000 I didn't want to go to that level.

00:19:32.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:19:33.000 Because even though I was reckless,

00:19:34.000 I didn't ever want to kill any of my enemies

00:19:36.000 or these dormers,

00:19:37.000 I didn't want to kill them.

00:19:38.000 But I was just reckless.

00:19:39.000 I could have done it through my own recklessness.

00:19:41.000 My intention was, if I see them,

00:19:43.000 I'm just going to shoot them in the legs

00:19:44.000 or shoot them in the stomach.

00:19:45.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:19:46.000 That one on the lease,

00:19:47.000 I shot him near the chest area,

00:19:49.000 but I just woke up,

00:19:50.000 I weren't thinking straight.

00:19:51.000 So it would have been recklessness

00:19:53.000 more than malice or intent

00:19:55.000 that I would have ended up killing someone.

00:19:58.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:19:59.000 Yeah.

00:20:00.000 So looking back, it was scary.

00:20:01.000 It was massively scary.

00:20:02.000 And I think the prison,

00:20:03.000 even though my first sentence didn't rehabilitate me,

00:20:06.000 I think it was necessary 100%

00:20:08.000 because I was getting worse and worse.

00:20:10.000 And the more people you shoot,

00:20:11.000 the more confident you become as an individual,

00:20:14.000 as a shooter.

00:20:15.000 It becomes more common,

00:20:16.000 a common practice.

00:20:17.000 You know what I mean?

00:20:18.000 It's just like a fighter.

00:20:19.000 The more people you beat up with your fists,

00:20:21.000 the more confident you're going to be

00:20:22.000 and the more willing you're going to be to have a fight.

00:20:24.000 You know, the more you get self-confidence.

00:20:26.000 You know what I mean?

00:20:27.000 And that's always definitely with guns, 100%.

00:20:30.000 I want to get to prison in a second

00:20:32.000 because we really want to talk with you about that.

00:20:33.000 But before we do,

00:20:34.000 just take us there chronologically.

00:20:36.000 So you get involved with this gang

00:20:39.000 because you've been bullied by these doormen.

00:20:41.000 You've got guns.

00:20:42.000 You've sold them guns.

00:20:43.000 How do you then get more involved in the gang?

00:20:47.000 Or do you?

00:20:48.000 Initially, I clung onto the gang.

00:20:50.000 Yeah.

00:20:51.000 And then once I've established myself,

00:20:53.000 then I've ended up going my own way.

00:20:55.000 I've become like a loner.

00:20:56.000 And then I was linking with Asian gangs

00:20:59.000 and black gangs in the south of the country.

00:21:02.000 And then there was all different gangs coming to me

00:21:05.000 to purchase firearms.

00:21:07.000 So then I was affiliated from just clinging on

00:21:10.000 to one gang in Liverpool.

00:21:12.000 At the time, the biggest gang in the city,

00:21:14.000 they were a serious group of individuals

00:21:17.000 and I clung onto them.

00:21:18.000 I weren't high up in that gang.

00:21:20.000 I was just a cling on

00:21:21.000 because your enemy is my enemy.

00:21:23.000 So we have something in common.

00:21:25.000 So that's why I clung onto them.

00:21:27.000 Because I thought they're fighting against these doormen.

00:21:29.000 So I need to cling on to them

00:21:30.000 so I'm not on my own.

00:21:31.000 And then once I become more confident

00:21:32.000 and more established in myself,

00:21:34.000 I weren't really asked.

00:21:35.000 I didn't really need them as much.

00:21:37.000 Do you understand what I'm saying?

00:21:38.000 Because then it developed my confidence.

00:21:40.000 So I was confident standing on my own two feet.

00:21:44.000 And you were selling guns to all these other gangs

00:21:46.000 at the same time.

00:21:47.000 Yeah, I was selling guns.

00:21:48.000 The vast majority of people,

00:21:49.000 there was a couple of times when I refused to sell,

00:21:51.000 people fired arms because they told me

00:21:54.000 what they were going to use them for.

00:21:55.000 And I thought, no, I don't want to be involved in that.

00:21:57.000 And I don't want to take, you know,

00:21:59.000 so I said, nah, it's not for me.

00:22:01.000 But the vast majority,

00:22:02.000 if someone had just come to me and asked for a gun,

00:22:04.000 I'd sell them.

00:22:05.000 Or I'd end up getting arrested.

00:22:06.000 The police put an operation on me

00:22:08.000 and they arrested me for manufacturing

00:22:10.000 and selling guns in 2004.

00:22:12.000 Yeah.

00:22:13.000 We'll talk about that in a sec.

00:22:14.000 How much would you be selling these guns for?

00:22:17.000 Back then, the sentences for firearms were low.

00:22:21.000 It weren't five-year minimum.

00:22:22.000 It was like, I know there was people outside clubs

00:22:25.000 that were getting liquid guns and getting two years.

00:22:27.000 You know what I mean?

00:22:28.000 So it was a low sentence for guns then.

00:22:30.000 Back then, I got four-year, three months for a firearm.

00:22:34.000 And that was a big sentence for a gun.

00:22:36.000 That was big.

00:22:37.000 Yeah.

00:22:38.000 And plus it weren't a full shilling.

00:22:39.000 The judge knew it weren't a full shilling.

00:22:40.000 It was the main judge in the local crime court,

00:22:42.000 Henry Globe, who sensed me.

00:22:43.000 And he was very fair to me

00:22:44.000 because he knew I was just a deluded kid

00:22:46.000 who'd went off the rails

00:22:47.000 and he had serious mental health problems.

00:22:49.000 I was bad.

00:22:50.000 A psychiatrist done a report on me

00:22:52.000 and I weren't there.

00:22:53.000 You know what I mean?

00:22:54.000 I was absolutely gone on the edge.

00:22:55.000 So, yeah, I got a big sentence for the firearms.

00:22:59.000 But at the time, if I was doing ten,

00:23:02.000 I'd do ten for three grand.

00:23:04.000 For example, sort of wake off three hundred.

00:23:05.000 Ten firearms for three grand?

00:23:07.000 Yeah, for three thousand pounds.

00:23:09.000 So, three hundred quid?

00:23:10.000 Yeah.

00:23:11.000 For one firearm?

00:23:12.000 Yeah, but that was in bulk.

00:23:13.000 Yeah.

00:23:14.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:23:15.000 Whereas, these days, the price has gone right up.

00:23:16.000 Yeah.

00:23:17.000 Whereas back then, when it was expensive,

00:23:18.000 you could get an half decent handgun back then

00:23:20.000 for like a grand, twelve hundred quid, fifteen hundred quid max.

00:23:24.000 Whereas now, the prices are like three grand,

00:23:26.000 two and a half grand, three grand, things like that.

00:23:28.000 Even years ago, the price went right up.

00:23:31.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:23:32.000 But back then, most of the ones I was doing were reactivated ones.

00:23:36.000 The vast majority of guns I put on the street and sold were all reactivated.

00:23:40.000 So, they were pennies to buy.

00:23:42.000 We were buying them for like sixty quid, eighty quid, ninety quid.

00:23:46.000 It'd take me half an hour to reactivate one.

00:23:49.000 We'd change the barrel and make the ammunition.

00:23:52.000 That was it.

00:23:53.000 It was as simple as that.

00:23:54.000 Wow.

00:23:55.000 And so, you were rapidly turning over all that money.

00:23:57.000 So, you were making quite a lot of money at the time then.

00:23:59.000 I was making quite a lot of money, yeah.

00:24:01.000 But I was spending it.

00:24:03.000 As it was, you know, we had the rents on the units and the factories, what we had.

00:24:09.000 I had my house rent and I was buying stupid little motorbikes.

00:24:13.000 I don't know.

00:24:14.000 I used to spend a lot of money on food eating out all the time.

00:24:18.000 A man after your own car.

00:24:19.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:24:20.000 When he was talking about the price of guns, I'm like, fuck me.

00:24:22.000 Inflation is affecting everything.

00:24:24.000 But Sikaris, so you were going through that and you had these psychological problems.

00:24:30.000 So, would you mind just talking about that a little bit?

00:24:33.000 How bad were things for you?

00:24:34.000 You said you were hearing voices.

00:24:36.000 Was that...

00:24:37.000 Bad.

00:24:38.000 I was bad on a scale of one to ten.

00:24:40.000 I think I was a nine.

00:24:41.000 But the judge recognised that in censoring me.

00:24:44.000 The two guys who got nicked with me, they were older.

00:24:46.000 They were in the 50s and stuff like that.

00:24:48.000 They got nicked with about, I might be wrong on the number here, but I'm sure they got nicked

00:24:52.000 combined total.

00:24:53.000 They got nicked with about 30 firearms roughly.

00:24:55.000 Activated, deactivated, whatever.

00:24:57.000 30 firearms and paraphernalia and so on.

00:24:59.000 They got five years and five and a half years.

00:25:02.000 I was a kid and got four years, three months.

00:25:04.000 Yeah.

00:25:05.000 In comparison, I got a harsher sentence than them.

00:25:09.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:25:10.000 I think the judge who sent me on the guns was David Bolton, but he slammed me more than

00:25:14.000 them for one gun and for manufacturing.

00:25:17.000 I got four free.

00:25:18.000 And I was deemed to be low down the rank.

00:25:20.000 I was just a kid with bad mental health problems.

00:25:22.000 And they were two adult men who were ordering from America.

00:25:25.000 They were on a bigger scale.

00:25:27.000 And they only got around the same sentence as me.

00:25:30.000 So you go to prison and the vast majority of people who watch our show and listen to

00:25:35.000 our show have no idea what prison is like.

00:25:38.000 Tell us, what's it like, that journey, your first day?

00:25:42.000 Well, for me, because I upset that many people.

00:25:45.000 But this is in 2004 I went to prison.

00:25:47.000 The first prison I went to was Walton in 2004 when I got nicked on these gun charges.

00:25:52.000 When I went to prison, I had every day was a nightmare in Walton prison because I upset

00:25:58.000 that many people.

00:25:59.000 And because it was all drug dealers and criminals that I upset.

00:26:03.000 I never upset, you know, my average show public.

00:26:05.000 It was drug dealers, criminals and, you know, I upset that many people.

00:26:09.000 How do you mean when you say you upset them?

00:26:10.000 How did you upset them?

00:26:11.000 Harmed them, robbed them.

00:26:14.000 We used to extort drug dealers, took the watches.

00:26:16.000 One of the habits I used to have, well, I wouldn't say it was an habit, but we used to rob drug dealers' watches.

00:26:21.000 So I'd wait by their house with a gun.

00:26:23.000 When they pull up, I'd creep up the car with a gun to them and take the watch, like the Rolex

00:26:28.000 or whatever watch they had.

00:26:29.000 You know what I mean?

00:26:30.000 So I was robbing watches off drug dealers.

00:26:32.000 You're Omar Little from The Wire, basically.

00:26:34.000 What's that?

00:26:35.000 You haven't seen The Wire?

00:26:37.000 The Wire?

00:26:38.000 You'd enjoy it.

00:26:39.000 Yeah.

00:26:40.000 Or you might enjoy it.

00:26:41.000 OK.

00:26:42.000 So you're robbing drug dealers for their watches.

00:26:44.000 Correct.

00:26:45.000 I'm for drugs.

00:26:46.000 That's kind of what happens, slightly spoiler, to this dude I'm talking about in the TV series.

00:26:50.000 So you're robbing drug dealers, you're pissing them off, obviously, and then you go to prison

00:26:55.000 and they're all there.

00:26:57.000 No, not that they're all there.

00:26:59.000 They were still outside, but they were putting hits on me from outside.

00:27:02.000 Right.

00:27:03.000 They were ringing people in the prison.

00:27:04.000 You had mobile phones back then in 2004.

00:27:06.000 And they paid a screw.

00:27:08.000 I don't know if I can say his name on here.

00:27:10.000 A prison officer, should I say.

00:27:11.000 Yeah.

00:27:12.000 Officer Peters.

00:27:13.000 He attacked me.

00:27:14.000 And there was an investigation.

00:27:15.000 So he was paid or influenced by these gangs.

00:27:17.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:27:18.000 Because he got me in the office and was saying...

00:27:19.000 So just to be clear, drug dealers paid a prison officer to attack a criminal like you in prison.

00:27:25.000 Correct.

00:27:26.000 When you say attack, what did he do?

00:27:28.000 Well, he butted me and he was saying, there's no guns in here.

00:27:31.000 You called me a shitbag and whatever.

00:27:33.000 Right.

00:27:34.000 But there was an investigation into it.

00:27:35.000 And nothing ever come.

00:27:36.000 The investigation was never concluded.

00:27:38.000 But he made me life-held Peters.

00:27:41.000 And another time, they opened my door on the landing.

00:27:44.000 About half-six in the morning.

00:27:46.000 Someone coming home with boiling water.

00:27:49.000 But the officer turned a blind eye to it.

00:27:51.000 I don't know what officer that was.

00:27:52.000 I don't know if it was Peters or I don't know.

00:27:54.000 Or, you know, there was hits getting put on my left, right and centre.

00:27:58.000 Because I was in prison, I was vulnerable.

00:28:00.000 But I always swore when I get out, I'm confused.

00:28:02.000 And when I got out, I did go for them and I made their lives.

00:28:05.000 Well, not every one of them, but I got a lot of them back.

00:28:08.000 You know what I mean?

00:28:09.000 A lot of them were from Whittle.

00:28:11.000 And when I got out of that sentence, I got a lot of them back.

00:28:16.000 You know what I mean?

00:28:17.000 So, I made their lives difficult.

00:28:19.000 I'm not saying it was right what I'd done, but I was just full of hatred and anger.

00:28:23.000 And I thought, nah, I'm coming for you.

00:28:25.000 I never done nothing very bad.

00:28:26.000 A lot of them, I just took money off and got compensated for what they'd done.

00:28:30.000 But, you know, it is what it is.

00:28:32.000 It's water over duck's back.

00:28:33.000 It's done.

00:28:34.000 People who done me wrong, I forgive them.

00:28:35.000 And half of them are probably dead anyway.

00:28:37.000 In jail, whatever.

00:28:38.000 I don't know.

00:28:39.000 I don't know what they're up to, but that was the past.

00:28:42.000 Wow.

00:28:43.000 This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

00:28:47.000 Hey, Konstantin.

00:28:48.000 Do you want better mental health?

00:28:51.000 I'm from Russia.

00:28:52.000 We don't have mental health.

00:28:53.000 So, how do you deal with mental health?

00:28:55.000 You drink vodka, then go out and wrestle bear.

00:28:58.000 If you live, you feel better.

00:29:00.000 If you die, you're not real man.

00:29:02.000 What about the bear's feelings?

00:29:04.000 It's Russian bear.

00:29:05.000 It has no feelings.

00:29:07.000 People don't always realize that physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and

00:29:12.000 even digestive issues can be indicators of stress.

00:29:15.000 And let's not forget about doom scrolling.

00:29:17.000 Not sleeping enough.

00:29:19.000 Sleeping too much.

00:29:20.000 Undereating and overeating.

00:29:22.000 Sleeping too much.

00:29:24.000 Undereating.

00:29:25.000 This is Western disease.

00:29:26.000 Therapy has really helped me in my life to concentrate and focus.

00:29:31.000 It's really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about the tricky issues

00:29:36.000 that you're struggling to deal with.

00:29:38.000 Therapy has played a really important role in helping me to deal with my ADHD and become

00:29:44.000 better in all areas of my life.

00:29:46.000 Why is he telling them how weak he is?

00:29:49.000 Drink vodka, feel better.

00:29:51.000 BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions

00:29:58.000 with your therapist.

00:29:59.000 So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to.

00:30:03.000 Trigonometry fans get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com forward slash trigger,

00:30:09.000 especially if they're not real men.

00:30:11.000 That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash trigger.

00:30:18.000 Did you not see it as you putting yourself in real danger that you're going to not only

00:30:25.000 mugging people but mugging drug dealers?

00:30:27.000 You must have known that at some point there was going to be retribution for that.

00:30:31.000 Ah, because you know when you've got firearms you feel invincible.

00:30:33.000 That's what, like, when I didn't have nothing, I feared even getting a slap.

00:30:39.000 Do you understand what I'm saying?

00:30:41.000 But when you've got that firearm, I'm speaking like two decades ago, do you know what I mean?

00:30:46.000 So 2001, 2002, going back then, people didn't really carry firearms.

00:30:50.000 Very, very rare.

00:30:52.000 And once you had that gun, it makes you feel invisible.

00:30:57.000 It makes you feel like you've got a cloak of invincibility around you.

00:31:00.000 Like no one can harm you, no one can do nothing.

00:31:02.000 And because most of the vast, vast, 99.99% of my enemies didn't carry guns, I had the upper hand.

00:31:08.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:31:09.000 So there was, I used to go on, I was, back then I was 10 stone, 10 half stone with no teeth.

00:31:14.000 And I went to meet these, something's happened in Whittle.

00:31:18.000 I've, I've, I've sterilized some fella, this drug dealer.

00:31:22.000 And he's went to these big steadheads, these big juiceheads.

00:31:25.000 They were like 23 stone plus, two brothers, um, called Sean and Ben from, from Birkenhead.

00:31:32.000 And, uh, I've ended up going on a meet with them by this cafe off Laird Street, I think it was called, Laird Street in Whittle.

00:31:38.000 And I, I pulled up, I, I was, I was in some stolen car.

00:31:42.000 And I had a handgun down my waistband and I pulled up.

00:31:46.000 I think it, I was like 10 stone, 10 half stone.

00:31:49.000 Pair of shorts on with two pieces of noodle legs, like my legs were like noodles.

00:31:53.000 Pair of white two-striped socks on, missing teeth and a vest.

00:31:56.000 Uh, I look like a, I look like a drug addict.

00:31:58.000 Yeah.

00:31:59.000 This 10 stone little snotty-nosed kid getting out of a car to two big 23 stone men.

00:32:03.000 And I just went straight up them.

00:32:05.000 Or, and, and it's put them on the back foot.

00:32:07.000 I had a gun on me so they would have done it and I would have shot both of them.

00:32:10.000 Well, it's put them on the back foot straight away.

00:32:12.000 Imagine you being 23 stone.

00:32:14.000 You and your brother two years are absolute monsters.

00:32:17.000 Um, everyone was shit scared them over there because they can fight, they were big, they were powerful, strong.

00:32:21.000 And then some little 10 stone, 10 stone scruffy kid pulls up and just flies right over to you.

00:32:27.000 It puts them back.

00:32:28.000 It was the element of surprise.

00:32:29.000 They must have thought, who the fuck is this 10 stone crackhead coming up and putting them.

00:32:35.000 I wasn't horrible to them.

00:32:36.000 I just said, you know, what?

00:32:37.000 And that was that.

00:32:38.000 It was, it was put to bed.

00:32:39.000 But I'm glad they never said that anyway, because I would have shopped over them.

00:32:43.000 But that's the type of character I'd become.

00:32:45.000 I had no fear when he had a gun on me.

00:32:46.000 I didn't care who you was, what you was.

00:32:48.000 I didn't come and meet you with my mates.

00:32:49.000 I'd come on my own.

00:32:50.000 Just with my gun.

00:32:51.000 And that's all I needed.

00:32:52.000 So I can understand why kids carry weapons because it gives them that sense of security.

00:32:57.000 Yeah.

00:32:58.000 I'm not justifying it by any reason.

00:32:59.000 No, no, no, no, no.

00:33:00.000 I'm giving you the reasoning behind it based upon my past understanding.

00:33:04.000 Yeah.

00:33:05.000 Well, that's the reason we wanted to have you on because you're someone who's lived that life,

00:33:08.000 but you've moved on and we'll talk about the way you've moved on in a bit.

00:33:11.000 But you get locked up, right?

00:33:13.000 2004, yeah.

00:33:14.000 2004.

00:33:15.000 Is that good for you?

00:33:16.000 Does that help?

00:33:17.000 Well, in Walton, I had a life of hell.

00:33:20.000 But when I went to all cores, I was all right after then.

00:33:23.000 And then from all cores, I ended up in high security.

00:33:27.000 I went to the Long Latin.

00:33:28.000 And that sentence, it never rehabilitated me, but it done me well.

00:33:35.000 Because when I got out after that sentence in 2009, I took a backseat then.

00:33:39.000 I went front line.

00:33:40.000 I went flying around with guns all the time on me.

00:33:43.000 I took a backseat.

00:33:44.000 That sentence did knock me back a bit.

00:33:46.000 So I went more organized, more backseat type.

00:33:49.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:33:50.000 Okay.

00:33:51.000 And then what happens from there?

00:33:53.000 2009, I was still involved in gangs and criminality.

00:33:56.000 To a merge side.

00:33:58.000 And I was linking with gangs in London and across the country.

00:34:01.000 Most of them were Asian gangs and black gangs.

00:34:04.000 And then 2011, they put a gang injunction on my merge side police.

00:34:09.000 So eventually I approached them and said, look, if I move out of merge side, will you ease something?

00:34:14.000 I couldn't be with more than three people at once.

00:34:16.000 I weren't allowed with more than three people.

00:34:18.000 I'd come out of my house in Anfield and the police would be videoing me with video cameras.

00:34:22.000 Not covertly.

00:34:23.000 I mean overtly.

00:34:24.000 There was a big van there.

00:34:26.000 And they followed me with a video camera when I was walking my dogs.

00:34:29.000 They were saying, fuck off.

00:34:30.000 And then I went to the ASDA.

00:34:32.000 And then in the ASDA, they followed me everywhere.

00:34:34.000 That's how, it was a disruption tactic.

00:34:36.000 Right.

00:34:37.000 And you know, it was effective.

00:34:39.000 Did they stop me committing crime?

00:34:40.000 Probably not.

00:34:41.000 But combined with what they were doing.

00:34:43.000 And then they put the gang injunction on me.

00:34:45.000 That got rid of me out of the pool.

00:34:46.000 Even though it never rehabilitated me, it moved the problem out of the pool.

00:34:52.000 And then I went to Lancashire then.

00:34:53.000 But when I went to Lancashire, I'd become more business-minded.

00:34:58.000 I set up businesses, companies, and I was still involved in organised crime.

00:35:02.000 But it was nowhere near on the level of what I was doing.

00:35:05.000 It wasn't firearm related.

00:35:07.000 There was more protection rackets, extortion, things like that.

00:35:13.000 And who would you be targeting with the protection rackets and the extortion?

00:35:17.000 Wealthy drug dealers.

00:35:21.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:35:22.000 But they weren't necessarily from Lancashire.

00:35:24.000 But I had a security company up there.

00:35:28.000 We used to get a lot of legit work.

00:35:30.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:35:31.000 We used to do mediation as well.

00:35:32.000 So two gangs were fighting.

00:35:34.000 Two drug dealing gangs.

00:35:36.000 We had to mediate and find a middle ground.

00:35:38.000 So on one of the mediations, I think I got paid 10 grand.

00:35:43.000 Some of the others were 5 grand.

00:35:45.000 But I was always skint and never had money.

00:35:47.000 Because my outgoings were too big.

00:35:48.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:35:49.000 So after that, the Lancashire police put an operation on me.

00:35:53.000 And they ended up getting eight and a half years.

00:35:55.000 For what?

00:35:56.000 A brothel, running a brothel.

00:35:59.000 And there was a blackmail where they tried to recover 120,000 pounds.

00:36:05.000 Someone lent someone.

00:36:06.000 My co-defendant lent someone 120,000 pounds.

00:36:09.000 They were all dodgy.

00:36:10.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:36:11.000 But they come to court and make out like they're legit.

00:36:13.000 And I'm not criticising them because, you know, I don't know.

00:36:18.000 Because you were blackmailing them.

00:36:19.000 Yeah.

00:36:20.000 Right.

00:36:21.000 I used inappropriate measures to try and recover the money.

00:36:25.000 Some of the stuff I got accused of, I honestly never done.

00:36:28.000 Like, I got accused of breaking windows and I never broke a window.

00:36:31.000 That was my co-dean and all that.

00:36:33.000 But I got dragged into his crap.

00:36:35.000 And because the police wanted me that much, they were willing to use any means to get me.

00:36:39.000 But a lot of the things, the vast, vast majority of the stuff I got accused of.

00:36:43.000 And I generally never done it.

00:36:45.000 But do I regret it?

00:36:47.000 No, because I needed that sentence.

00:36:49.000 So that sentence done me good.

00:36:50.000 Again.

00:36:51.000 So the sentence in 2016, even though I went to prison for things I'd never done.

00:36:57.000 I think I got six acquittals and I got one guilty.

00:37:00.000 The brothel, yeah.

00:37:01.000 I plead the guilt of that.

00:37:02.000 But the blackmail, most of the stuff I was accused of.

00:37:05.000 It was my co-dean was doing that.

00:37:07.000 And why was the second prison sentence, the one that transformed you, the one that rehabilitated you or helped to rehabilitate you?

00:37:14.000 I was in my cell and I was watching a programme on Liverpool, on a case in Liverpool where a young kid was shot.

00:37:20.000 And I think that was the turning point in my life when I thought, nah, what the fuck's happened?

00:37:27.000 It was, I think it was, I knew about it beforehand.

00:37:31.000 It never bothered me.

00:37:32.000 But when you watch the programme and see his parents and, I know a lot of people don't believe me and say,

00:37:37.000 oh no, it's bullshit.

00:37:39.000 You've got no empty, so why would you be bothered about that?

00:37:41.000 But something clicked.

00:37:43.000 And seeing his parents and you think, nah, the shit they went through, it was, that was my turning point.

00:37:49.000 You're talking about, is it Rhys?

00:37:51.000 Yeah.

00:37:52.000 I don't remember his surname.

00:37:53.000 Rhys.

00:37:54.000 Rhys Jones.

00:37:55.000 Rhys Jones, yeah.

00:37:56.000 Rhys Jones.

00:37:57.000 He's got seven years old.

00:37:58.000 And he wasn't involved in anything.

00:37:59.000 He just got shocked.

00:38:00.000 He wasn't involved in nothing.

00:38:01.000 But when I watched that programme that was televised, I knew about it.

00:38:04.000 It never fazed me.

00:38:05.000 It didn't bother me.

00:38:06.000 It was just collateral.

00:38:07.000 I used to view that as collateral damage.

00:38:09.000 But when you watch the programme and see the shit his parents went through and his

00:38:15.000 family and you think, I used to put, even though it was years and years before, I used

00:38:20.000 to put hundreds and hundreds of weapons on the street.

00:38:25.000 Probably put over a thousand weapons.

00:38:26.620 I didn't keep calculating how many it was,

00:38:28.620 but probably put over a thousand weapons on the streets.

00:38:32.060 And even though it weren't my weapons that done that crime,

00:38:36.660 it's still, you know, imagine what are the crimes?

00:38:39.720 And I thought, no, that's not, it's scum.

00:38:41.860 You're peddling evil.

00:38:44.280 You know what I mean?

00:38:44.840 Same as when people deal heroin.

00:38:46.460 They're just peddling evil on the streets.

00:38:48.220 And that's what I've done for years,

00:38:50.560 from 2001 up until me arresting 2004.

00:38:53.080 And you're putting that much misery and shit on the streets.

00:38:56.920 You don't know who your victims are going to be.

00:38:59.240 You know what I mean?

00:38:59.560 Because whoever's buying the guns,

00:39:00.640 they don't tell you what they're using them for.

00:39:02.500 Because if they did, I wouldn't have sold them.

00:39:04.380 I wouldn't have sold them.

00:39:05.600 So they just buy them for whatever reason.

00:39:07.660 And imagine how many people have got harmed and hurt

00:39:11.360 as a result of me doing that.

00:39:14.200 And hopefully it just clicks.

00:39:15.540 And from that day, I just, I changed from that day.

00:39:19.060 Not straight away, but my change was gradual.

00:39:21.340 And it built upon that.

00:39:22.220 And it was reinforced by charities engaging with me.

00:39:25.360 Whereas when I lifted that charity,

00:39:27.080 Rhys Jones' family,

00:39:28.500 it was a charity connected to them.

00:39:30.620 They haven't replied that yet,

00:39:32.040 but they sent it to someone else.

00:39:33.820 And then they've responded.

00:39:36.020 And that gave me some motivation.

00:39:38.160 Do you know what I mean?

00:39:38.560 And then Mothers Against Guns responded to me

00:39:42.040 when I lifted them.

00:39:42.820 And that gave me motivation to continue on that path.

00:39:46.080 Because they were acknowledging me.

00:39:47.760 They weren't saying,

00:39:48.380 oh, no, you're a piece of shit.

00:39:49.940 The misery, of course, we don't want to know you.

00:39:51.520 Or we don't want to engage with you.

00:39:52.980 They were acknowledging me.

00:39:53.960 And even though I never worked with them when I got out,

00:39:55.980 I had to meet with one or two of them.

00:39:57.220 It's still, at that time,

00:39:58.680 it gave me that inspiration to push on,

00:40:02.160 on the right path, you know what I mean?

00:40:03.360 But if they never ripped back to me,

00:40:04.560 then who knows what path I would have took upon release.

00:40:07.780 But that gave me my inspiration and my path to go down.

00:40:10.320 So, what do you say to a kid?

00:40:12.440 Because, you know, I'm listening to you

00:40:14.440 and I'm remembering me at 17 or 18 or whatever.

00:40:17.400 And you're talking about, well, you get a knife or a gun

00:40:21.080 and you feel powerful.

00:40:22.420 And every boy wants to feel powerful

00:40:24.400 and able to defend themselves when they're 17, right?

00:40:28.160 You've got money.

00:40:29.780 You know, you don't have to take shit from anyone.

00:40:31.900 I wouldn't say you've got money

00:40:32.760 because I was always skint.

00:40:33.920 Right.

00:40:34.480 I was earning good money sometimes,

00:40:36.260 but I was always skint.

00:40:36.980 I never had money.

00:40:37.740 Yeah.

00:40:38.340 I couldn't pull five grand out.

00:40:39.720 I couldn't pull ten grand out.

00:40:40.760 I was skint.

00:40:40.980 But that's what some kids think, right?

00:40:42.340 You're going to have loads of money.

00:40:43.160 Yeah, obviously, that's what they think.

00:40:44.340 But I've never met a rich gang member.

00:40:46.540 Really?

00:40:47.120 Never.

00:40:47.500 Not once I've ever met a wealthy gang member.

00:40:50.380 Because whilst,

00:40:52.240 I know many wealthy drug dealers,

00:40:54.540 you know, and wealthy criminals,

00:40:56.080 but when you're gangbanging,

00:40:57.920 shooting at each other on the street,

00:40:59.120 you can't make money.

00:41:00.500 The police are all over you.

00:41:01.640 You're attracting attention.

00:41:02.640 And that's why a lot of drug dealers

00:41:03.740 who are doing well

00:41:04.400 don't like the attention.

00:41:05.820 They don't like the rigmarole

00:41:06.680 and the drama.

00:41:07.800 So they don't do all that.

00:41:09.320 All the big OCGs,

00:41:11.100 the vast majority,

00:41:12.660 don't get me wrong,

00:41:13.320 they might get someone shopper,

00:41:14.280 be on the sly,

00:41:15.000 or they pay to get it done,

00:41:16.460 for example.

00:41:17.500 They're not running around gangbanging.

00:41:19.060 They're not carrying firearms

00:41:20.040 gangbanging on the streets of Liverpool

00:41:21.320 or the streets of whatever city

00:41:24.000 because they're focused on making money.

00:41:26.440 They're more organised,

00:41:27.620 more better structured,

00:41:28.500 where the gangbangers,

00:41:30.340 they're the ones carrying the knives

00:41:31.520 and carrying the guns

00:41:32.280 and they're the ones

00:41:33.260 that never make money.

00:41:34.640 Don't get me wrong,

00:41:35.300 they might have a county line

00:41:36.320 and they're my grand a day,

00:41:38.060 but it doesn't last.

00:41:39.880 And they've got it on the show for it.

00:41:40.820 They'll go out and buy

00:41:41.360 a £1,000 coat

00:41:43.220 or £600 shoes

00:41:45.420 and they've got a girlfriend,

00:41:46.640 their own,

00:41:47.320 who doesn't work

00:41:48.080 and she's high maintenance

00:41:49.660 because she's gone for that type of boy,

00:41:51.660 that type of lad.

00:41:52.860 So he's financing her,

00:41:54.100 he's financing him.

00:41:54.960 They're eating out all the time.

00:41:56.280 They're spending money,

00:41:57.220 stupid watches

00:41:57.780 and they're going 30-grit

00:42:00.440 and going to clubs,

00:42:02.200 getting champagne.

00:42:02.980 So they're always skinned.

00:42:05.040 They're only low-key drug dealers.

00:42:06.860 You don't really get many gangbangers

00:42:08.100 that are high up

00:42:09.840 and that have got a high net worth.

00:42:12.360 That makes sense.

00:42:13.240 But what about the other stuff?

00:42:14.620 You know,

00:42:15.340 I want to be powerful,

00:42:17.080 I want to defend myself.

00:42:18.220 What do you say to kids like that?

00:42:19.940 What do you mean to talk them out of it?

00:42:21.120 Yeah.

00:42:21.600 Because that's one of the things

00:42:23.200 you work on now, right?

00:42:23.940 As I say,

00:42:25.700 professionals,

00:42:27.600 all these youth workers

00:42:30.060 they think I'm too controversial.

00:42:33.360 But my argument

00:42:34.280 to every professional

00:42:35.200 and every youth worker,

00:42:36.520 your approach isn't working.

00:42:38.380 So I'm probably

00:42:38.980 the most controversial

00:42:39.800 reformist there is.

00:42:42.980 Do you know what I mean?

00:42:43.340 Because I speak to them like,

00:42:45.440 I was at a centre once

00:42:46.500 and I called one of the kids

00:42:47.400 a little bastard.

00:42:48.820 Do you know what I mean?

00:42:49.300 And I got frowned upon

00:42:50.380 and all the youth workers were like,

00:42:51.280 oh, we don't want your back,

00:42:52.000 we don't want your back.

00:42:52.560 But their approach ain't working

00:42:54.820 and I told them that.

00:42:55.760 I said,

00:42:55.940 your approach ain't working

00:42:56.720 and that same kid

00:42:57.360 they were called

00:42:57.700 the little bastard.

00:42:59.360 He's asked me ever since,

00:43:00.460 I want to work with him,

00:43:01.160 I want to work with him,

00:43:02.320 I want to work with him

00:43:03.120 because he was attached to me,

00:43:05.600 he wanted to work with me,

00:43:06.400 he wanted to engage with me.

00:43:07.560 He doesn't want to,

00:43:08.180 he's had a PRU,

00:43:09.580 Alternative Provisions,

00:43:10.480 a pupil referral unit.

00:43:11.840 So he's been expelled from school.

00:43:13.740 No one can manage this kid,

00:43:15.000 no one can control him,

00:43:16.600 but he wants to work with me

00:43:17.580 even though I called him

00:43:18.500 a little bastard.

00:43:19.080 But these youth workers,

00:43:19.920 these two good youth workers

00:43:21.500 who haven't got a clue

00:43:22.140 they've got no practical experience.

00:43:23.780 Everything they've learnt

00:43:24.740 is from a book,

00:43:26.540 uni, college, whatever.

00:43:28.700 And they can't control these kids.

00:43:30.320 They haven't got,

00:43:30.720 they don't speak the same language.

00:43:32.140 It's just like an Arab and a Jew.

00:43:33.440 One speaks Arabic,

00:43:34.200 one speaks Hebrew.

00:43:35.460 You're not going to get

00:43:36.160 constructive dialogue

00:43:37.220 from them.

00:43:39.480 Do you know what I mean?

00:43:40.760 And so you need

00:43:41.580 a middle person

00:43:42.400 who can translate.

00:43:43.880 Do you understand

00:43:44.220 what I'm saying?

00:43:44.600 So these youth workers...

00:43:47.200 So what are you saying?

00:43:48.200 What's the approach

00:43:49.040 that these kids need

00:43:49.940 in your opinion?

00:43:51.040 It depends on the kids.

00:43:52.440 A black kid in London

00:43:54.500 would be different

00:43:55.660 to reforming a white kid

00:43:56.700 in Liverpool.

00:43:57.460 They've got different ideology.

00:43:59.480 I know the goals

00:44:00.720 and the targets

00:44:01.400 are the same,

00:44:02.000 financial and power

00:44:03.500 and guns

00:44:04.020 and what was status.

00:44:06.580 That might be similar

00:44:07.660 or the same,

00:44:08.880 but the ideology

00:44:09.660 in the way

00:44:11.280 they speak

00:44:12.240 it's different.

00:44:14.820 So the method

00:44:15.360 that will work

00:44:15.960 on a white kid

00:44:16.600 in Liverpool

00:44:17.040 won't necessarily work

00:44:18.800 on a black kid

00:44:19.760 in Peckham

00:44:20.440 or Brixton,

00:44:21.580 for example.

00:44:22.180 So it depends

00:44:23.460 who you're reforming

00:44:24.340 and it depends

00:44:24.960 on the approach

00:44:25.480 you're going to take.

00:44:26.620 But every kid

00:44:27.920 I've engaged with,

00:44:29.060 every young person

00:44:29.700 I've engaged with

00:44:30.360 has always been

00:44:31.460 100% receptive.

00:44:33.420 And my approach,

00:44:36.040 my strategy,

00:44:37.220 I've tested that

00:44:38.060 over the past,

00:44:38.700 I'd say,

00:44:39.060 the past 12 months

00:44:39.860 approximately.

00:44:41.120 It's been tested

00:44:41.660 on it over

00:44:42.060 100 kids.

00:44:43.100 When I go to youth centres

00:44:43.980 there'll be like

00:44:44.520 30 kids plus

00:44:45.600 and every single time

00:44:47.240 my approach

00:44:47.880 and the way

00:44:48.640 I come across

00:44:49.280 it's been 100% receptive.

00:44:52.660 And so what tactics

00:44:54.160 do you use

00:44:54.820 the first time

00:44:55.420 you meet them?

00:44:56.020 What do you do?

00:44:57.340 How do you speak to them?

00:44:58.440 I know it's different

00:44:59.180 depending on the kid.

00:45:00.400 Obviously it's got to be

00:45:00.980 an icebreaker

00:45:01.440 but there was one kid

00:45:03.640 at a youth centre

00:45:04.280 at a different youth centre

00:45:06.400 I went to.

00:45:07.260 He was a bar.

00:45:09.080 He was young.

00:45:10.140 He must have been

00:45:10.460 12, 13.

00:45:11.220 He was one of the worst

00:45:11.920 kids there

00:45:12.320 and he pointed him out

00:45:14.600 and said he was

00:45:14.920 the worst one

00:45:15.460 and he started

00:45:17.280 giving me shit

00:45:17.860 calling me whatever

00:45:19.680 he was saying.

00:45:21.220 And I've given him shit back

00:45:22.340 and said,

00:45:22.620 you fucking little prick

00:45:23.380 I'll put you in that

00:45:24.080 wheelie bin a minute.

00:45:24.880 So I've come across

00:45:26.660 I've used

00:45:28.040 instrumental aggression

00:45:28.980 you'll understand

00:45:30.160 what I'm saying

00:45:30.620 and the professionals

00:45:32.720 there was

00:45:33.980 some fella there

00:45:36.060 who worked at the centre

00:45:37.100 and he's looked at me

00:45:37.700 like that

00:45:38.040 and walked away

00:45:39.600 he was laughing

00:45:40.140 but shaking his head

00:45:41.720 you know what I mean

00:45:42.320 telling some kids

00:45:44.380 some 13 year olds

00:45:45.200 I'll put you in a fucking

00:45:45.860 wheelie bin if you carry on

00:45:46.760 do you understand

00:45:47.640 what I'm saying

00:45:47.980 but it broke the ice

00:45:48.680 and then I took him outside

00:45:50.520 and spoke to him

00:45:51.140 and I spoke his language

00:45:54.400 and my communication with him

00:45:58.160 he listened to me

00:45:59.380 and he apologised.

00:46:01.400 What do you mean by

00:46:02.400 you spoke his language?

00:46:04.060 I spoke his language

00:46:05.060 like youth workers

00:46:05.820 won't

00:46:06.120 you'll never see a youth worker

00:46:08.140 saying to a kid

00:46:08.780 you fucking little prick

00:46:09.940 I'll put you in a bin

00:46:10.860 he wouldn't even call a kid a prick

00:46:11.940 or a little bastard

00:46:13.240 or you fucking

00:46:13.960 you little c**t

00:46:15.060 they don't speak the language

00:46:16.200 or a youth worker

00:46:17.580 I'd never say

00:46:18.020 who the fuck he's speaking to

00:46:19.160 they don't

00:46:20.480 because the profession

00:46:21.240 they've got too much accountability

00:46:22.800 they've got to satisfy

00:46:23.740 these big wigs above them

00:46:25.680 and they don't come from

00:46:26.720 that background

00:46:27.180 these youth workers

00:46:27.760 even the ones in

00:46:28.440 who walk around

00:46:29.760 with the jeans by the knees

00:46:30.680 and pretend

00:46:31.120 they come from that background

00:46:32.720 they ain't that guy

00:46:33.440 and the kids see that

00:46:35.140 they're fake

00:46:35.520 they're counterfeit

00:46:36.320 they're full of s**t

00:46:37.440 excuse me language

00:46:38.080 but they're full of s**t

00:46:39.360 and it's just like

00:46:40.760 the youth workers

00:46:42.240 some of them are black

00:46:44.140 and they think

00:46:45.320 they can communicate

00:46:46.120 with every black kid

00:46:46.860 that's bullshit

00:46:47.400 that's bollocks

00:46:48.480 just because you're

00:46:48.940 the same colour

00:46:49.460 doesn't mean

00:46:50.600 these kids respect you

00:46:51.840 it's just like

00:46:52.920 a white youth worker

00:46:53.600 it doesn't mean

00:46:54.000 every white kid

00:46:55.600 is going to respect

00:46:56.160 a white youth worker

00:46:56.820 and I'm a massive critic

00:46:59.280 of youth workers

00:46:59.980 and professionals

00:47:00.820 because they've got

00:47:01.360 the wrong approach

00:47:02.080 and I think they're making

00:47:03.640 the problem worse than it is

00:47:05.220 how so?

00:47:06.500 because they don't speak

00:47:07.600 the same language

00:47:08.300 as the kids

00:47:08.720 they haven't got

00:47:09.080 the right approach

00:47:09.780 they're trying to

00:47:10.900 pussyfoot and tiptoe around

00:47:12.920 these kids

00:47:13.340 and they go

00:47:14.200 oh you can't speak

00:47:15.340 to them like that

00:47:15.800 you might traumatise them

00:47:16.700 traumatise them

00:47:17.320 they're f**king walking around

00:47:18.200 with an handgun

00:47:18.680 and you're saying

00:47:21.700 they're going to traumatise me

00:47:22.680 you're f**king mad

00:47:23.240 he's just stabbed

00:47:24.800 some other kid

00:47:25.360 down the road

00:47:25.960 ten minutes ago

00:47:27.520 and you're saying

00:47:28.060 I'm going to traumatise him

00:47:29.140 by calling him

00:47:29.660 a little c**t

00:47:30.180 or telling him

00:47:31.620 I'll put him

00:47:32.420 in a wheelie bin

00:47:32.940 I'm saying for example

00:47:34.160 doesn't mean the kid

00:47:34.760 they spoke to

00:47:35.140 has just stabbed

00:47:35.600 or shot someone

00:47:36.100 I'm not saying that

00:47:36.680 but these are the type

00:47:37.880 of kids that are

00:47:38.440 walking the streets

00:47:39.120 so you speak the language

00:47:40.800 and you assert your authority

00:47:42.320 that's one of them

00:47:42.880 100% yeah

00:47:43.460 okay and what else

00:47:44.700 how do you get over

00:47:45.740 the fact that you've got

00:47:46.900 a bunch of young people

00:47:48.180 in this country

00:47:48.840 who don't have

00:47:50.280 an affinity to anything

00:47:51.720 who feel like

00:47:53.120 their only way

00:47:53.760 of getting success

00:47:55.360 or status

00:47:55.980 or respect

00:47:56.580 or power

00:47:57.460 or whatever

00:47:57.860 is to get a gun

00:47:58.700 or a knife

00:47:59.080 how do you deal with that

00:48:00.040 yeah but look

00:48:00.840 if a kid says to me

00:48:03.040 I feel powerful

00:48:04.920 when I've got a gun

00:48:05.580 I'll say yeah

00:48:06.920 I agree

00:48:07.760 because I did the same

00:48:08.640 and I felt powerful

00:48:09.600 it's great

00:48:10.860 it gives you a buzz

00:48:12.220 and I can understand

00:48:13.820 the buzz you're getting

00:48:14.460 however

00:48:15.820 it ain't going to

00:48:17.140 make you money

00:48:17.580 you might rob a watch

00:48:19.500 or you might rob

00:48:20.060 a few ounce of coke

00:48:20.760 off some drug dealer

00:48:21.460 when you're putting

00:48:22.240 your gun to them

00:48:22.760 but you'll spend that

00:48:24.200 and then you're going

00:48:24.700 to go back out next week

00:48:25.640 or in a few days

00:48:26.540 and have to do the same

00:48:27.340 eventually

00:48:28.360 you're going to get jail

00:48:29.580 you're going to be sat

00:48:30.180 you're going to get a five

00:48:30.980 plus

00:48:31.740 if you use the gun

00:48:32.580 you get longer

00:48:33.020 but even if you just

00:48:33.620 get caught with your gun

00:48:34.320 you're going to get

00:48:35.240 five years plus

00:48:35.980 and you'll be sat in jail

00:48:37.900 that two grand

00:48:39.240 or two ounce of crack

00:48:40.120 what you've just robbed

00:48:40.760 off someone

00:48:41.140 if you sell it

00:48:42.440 for a grand or 15 ton

00:48:43.440 15 ton

00:48:44.200 won't last you five years

00:48:45.040 your post lauders

00:48:45.960 you can spend

00:48:46.900 25, 30 quid a week

00:48:48.120 so times that by 52

00:48:49.820 my mat isn't great

00:48:50.800 what is it

00:48:52.160 do you know what I mean

00:48:53.040 25 quid times 52

00:48:54.840 so do your sums

00:48:56.780 so you're going to be

00:48:57.780 sat in jail

00:48:58.360 skint

00:48:58.740 on your ass

00:48:59.480 on the phone

00:49:00.680 begging your mum

00:49:01.260 for a post lauder

00:49:01.860 I've been there myself

00:49:03.000 and it doesn't last

00:49:05.020 that's why you see

00:49:05.620 all these gang members

00:49:06.300 in jail

00:49:06.660 they're skint

00:49:07.080 and a lot of them

00:49:09.200 get onto these

00:49:09.900 young broke

00:49:11.940 whitebirds

00:49:12.520 in jail

00:49:14.600 like they'll meet

00:49:15.120 them in jail

00:49:15.600 the bird will be

00:49:16.500 outside

00:49:16.860 the gang member

00:49:17.440 will meet her

00:49:18.320 get onto her

00:49:18.920 through writing

00:49:19.320 to her

00:49:19.520 I don't know

00:49:19.960 or on the phone

00:49:20.580 and they'll start

00:49:21.860 bumming money off her

00:49:23.000 or get me training

00:49:24.460 babe

00:49:24.900 I love you

00:49:25.400 and this and that

00:49:26.020 so he's

00:49:27.500 being financed

00:49:28.340 by this girl

00:49:29.080 who he's met

00:49:29.940 in prison

00:49:30.380 who he doesn't

00:49:30.920 previously know

00:49:31.760 and she's got kids

00:49:33.000 to raise

00:49:33.320 but this

00:49:34.120 this gang member

00:49:35.500 in jail

00:49:35.720 I'm not saying

00:49:36.080 all gang members

00:49:36.620 are like that

00:49:36.940 but a vast

00:49:37.620 big proportion

00:49:39.200 do this

00:49:39.760 they cling on to girls

00:49:40.700 because it's

00:49:41.780 they source

00:49:42.560 an income

00:49:43.820 they source

00:49:44.200 they fund them

00:49:44.720 from this

00:49:45.120 innocent fucking

00:49:45.800 young girl

00:49:46.740 who's been

00:49:47.720 who's got

00:49:48.800 misguided loyalty

00:49:49.620 to them

00:49:49.860 who believes

00:49:50.500 that this gang

00:49:51.060 member in jail

00:49:51.660 loves them

00:49:52.260 because he's

00:49:53.460 on his Instagram

00:49:54.180 with a six pack

00:49:54.840 and his chest out

00:49:55.860 and he's got a six pack

00:49:56.500 and he's in good shape

00:49:57.200 he's preying on her

00:49:58.780 financially

00:49:59.600 for financial gain

00:50:00.800 and then he gets out

00:50:02.020 and he thinks

00:50:03.680 nah fuck

00:50:04.100 she's got six kids

00:50:05.700 or fucking

00:50:06.940 four kids

00:50:08.160 and she

00:50:09.080 you know

00:50:09.420 I'm not going to

00:50:10.200 settle down with her

00:50:10.900 it was just a

00:50:11.440 means to an end

00:50:12.280 to get through his prison

00:50:13.000 do you know what I mean

00:50:13.940 to get him trainees

00:50:14.720 to get him post-law just

00:50:15.820 and it's quite common in jail

00:50:17.640 do you know what I mean

00:50:18.300 but gang members

00:50:19.080 are skint

00:50:19.720 and going back to the story

00:50:21.380 it's about

00:50:22.000 re-educating these kids

00:50:23.800 on the consequences

00:50:25.340 and the pros and cons

00:50:26.580 the benefits

00:50:27.060 I'm not

00:50:28.060 going to tell any kid

00:50:29.160 don't carry a gun

00:50:29.860 but I'm going to give them

00:50:31.700 these are the benefits

00:50:33.600 these are the consequences

00:50:34.560 the consequences

00:50:35.520 outweigh the benefits

00:50:36.680 but when I'm communicating

00:50:38.040 with them

00:50:38.500 I'm telling them straight

00:50:40.200 look

00:50:40.640 you'll end up skint

00:50:41.500 you'll end up in jail

00:50:42.380 you know

00:50:43.920 if you use your gun

00:50:45.600 and kill someone

00:50:46.100 you'll end up in jail

00:50:47.040 wanking for your next 30 years

00:50:48.400 you'll be getting out

00:50:49.480 with an old man

00:50:49.960 lending tuner

00:50:50.760 off your neighbour

00:50:51.180 it's not the place to be

00:50:52.540 it's not the place to go

00:50:53.840 it's shit

00:50:54.240 you know

00:50:55.260 if the benefit

00:50:55.800 outweighs the risk

00:50:56.540 then

00:50:57.280 fair enough

00:50:58.520 but

00:50:58.760 in this

00:50:59.740 in violent crime

00:51:00.840 the benefit

00:51:01.480 don't outweigh the risk

00:51:03.360 and it's about

00:51:04.820 getting this message

00:51:05.660 to them

00:51:06.060 and not saying

00:51:06.760 don't do it

00:51:08.100 I'm working with the police

00:51:09.180 or I'm working with the council

00:51:10.320 don't do it

00:51:11.340 because they're going to

00:51:11.840 look at you

00:51:12.180 like you're a c***

00:51:12.800 and think

00:51:13.600 why should they listen to you

00:51:14.460 you've got to

00:51:15.520 put them in

00:51:16.440 you've got to become

00:51:17.420 their leader

00:51:18.960 it's like a

00:51:19.720 pack of dogs

00:51:20.380 and you're becoming

00:51:21.780 part of that pack

00:51:22.560 you've got to become

00:51:23.100 part of them

00:51:23.620 and then lead from within

00:51:24.800 and be a

00:51:26.700 good example to them

00:51:27.800 and show them

00:51:28.220 look

00:51:28.440 you can hustle

00:51:29.740 on the streets

00:51:30.200 for years

00:51:30.680 and be skint

00:51:31.700 whereas if you go to uni

00:51:32.800 and hustle

00:51:33.560 for three years

00:51:34.640 you get a degree

00:51:35.260 you can go and get a job

00:51:36.820 40, 50 grand a year

00:51:37.900 you're earning more

00:51:39.020 legitimately legit money

00:51:40.180 than you're half a gram

00:51:41.640 how are you going to

00:51:42.360 buy a house

00:51:42.800 and you go

00:51:43.100 well I'll just save up

00:51:44.060 save up from robbing

00:51:46.080 a few hours of crack

00:51:46.700 every week

00:51:47.120 where are you going to

00:51:48.160 where are you going to

00:51:48.500 put your money

00:51:48.900 I'll get my nan to buy me

00:51:49.940 I'll give it to my nan

00:51:50.760 and then

00:51:52.220 you've got to educate

00:51:52.980 them on money laundering

00:51:53.720 there's a lawyer

00:51:54.940 who we've got

00:51:55.420 the programme

00:51:56.100 what I'm doing

00:51:56.480 there's a lawyer

00:51:56.960 who's going to come

00:51:58.060 and do a talk

00:51:58.760 every programme

00:51:59.520 and he's going to

00:52:00.740 educate them

00:52:01.360 on joint enterprise

00:52:02.200 conspiracy

00:52:02.760 money laundering

00:52:03.560 and he's going to

00:52:04.620 educate the reality

00:52:05.500 you can't just go

00:52:07.240 and rob people

00:52:08.300 or go and sell crack

00:52:09.300 and smack

00:52:09.800 and then go and buy

00:52:11.060 it out with the proceeds

00:52:11.960 it don't work like that

00:52:12.860 you understand what I'm saying

00:52:14.460 so it's getting

00:52:15.460 the message

00:52:15.940 through to them

00:52:17.240 by speaking

00:52:18.520 the same language

00:52:19.180 and then getting

00:52:19.900 the lawyers

00:52:20.580 to explain

00:52:21.740 the legal side

00:52:22.420 to corroborate

00:52:23.940 what I'm saying

00:52:24.460 look he's a lawyer

00:52:25.440 he represents

00:52:26.340 stone cold killers

00:52:27.900 he represents

00:52:28.420 the biggest

00:52:28.900 drug cartel

00:52:29.720 he represents

00:52:30.380 the worst

00:52:31.400 of the worst

00:52:31.900 he's their defence lawyer

00:52:33.180 it's actually

00:52:33.480 a very rational approach

00:52:34.860 what you're saying

00:52:35.560 is you're not

00:52:36.360 wagging the finger

00:52:37.260 and going

00:52:37.540 oh you naughty boy

00:52:38.500 you're going

00:52:39.100 look you can do

00:52:39.940 whatever you want

00:52:40.640 but these are

00:52:41.660 the consequences

00:52:42.320 of your actions

00:52:42.980 and they're not

00:52:43.500 what you think

00:52:43.980 they're going to be

00:52:44.440 correct

00:52:44.660 and also

00:52:45.540 at the same time

00:52:46.260 giving them

00:52:46.760 an alternative

00:52:47.600 like the ones

00:52:48.600 on the programmes

00:52:49.560 when I'm starting

00:52:50.040 the 16 to 19 year olds

00:52:51.460 we're going to be

00:52:52.600 guaranteeing

00:52:53.140 every one of them

00:52:53.680 a job at the end

00:52:54.440 the programme

00:52:54.860 the 12 to 15

00:52:56.100 there's going to be

00:52:56.540 two groups

00:52:56.980 12 to 15

00:52:57.660 16 to 19

00:52:58.580 the 12 to 15

00:52:59.420 we can't necessarily

00:53:00.720 they're still in education

00:53:02.300 alternative provisions

00:53:03.820 and PRUs

00:53:04.520 so on

00:53:05.200 so we can't necessarily

00:53:06.460 get them into work

00:53:07.200 at that moment

00:53:07.760 but we're putting them

00:53:09.800 on the right path

00:53:10.460 we might get them

00:53:11.420 a fucking

00:53:11.700 weekend job

00:53:12.480 in a garage

00:53:13.280 or helping

00:53:14.800 someone's

00:53:15.940 electrician's helper

00:53:17.480 you don't understand

00:53:18.460 what I'm saying

00:53:18.820 but the old ones

00:53:19.440 16 to 19

00:53:19.960 we're getting them

00:53:21.160 into work

00:53:21.560 and we're giving them

00:53:22.900 the alternative

00:53:23.480 to earn legitimate money

00:53:24.700 where you can put it

00:53:25.920 in the bank

00:53:26.340 you can get your good credit

00:53:27.320 we're teaching them

00:53:28.060 about building the credit

00:53:29.000 what you've got to do

00:53:30.960 to get a house

00:53:31.640 what you've got to do

00:53:32.640 to get finance

00:53:33.800 what you've got to do

00:53:34.380 to get cars

00:53:34.980 and we're educating them

00:53:36.000 look you can't just

00:53:36.780 go into a showroom

00:53:38.080 with 50 grand

00:53:38.740 of dodgy money

00:53:40.380 and buy a car

00:53:41.060 back in the day

00:53:42.000 yeah

00:53:42.160 that was fucking great

00:53:43.060 but you're in 2022 now

00:53:44.620 shit don't work like that

00:53:45.760 we're educating them

00:53:46.880 what are you going to do

00:53:48.500 with your money

00:53:48.900 how are you going to spend it

00:53:50.160 how are you going to

00:53:50.620 how are you going to clean it

00:53:51.780 it's not as easy as

00:53:53.080 you can go out

00:53:53.660 and buy a coat for you

00:53:55.120 in your bed

00:53:55.580 and go to a club

00:53:56.680 and buy champagne

00:53:57.280 but that's all your life

00:53:58.260 is going to consist of

00:53:59.000 you're never going to have

00:53:59.640 a house

00:53:59.940 you're never going to have

00:54:00.480 a decent car

00:54:01.040 because the police

00:54:02.260 are going to be questioning

00:54:02.800 where did you get your car

00:54:03.580 and you can't just go

00:54:04.860 and buy a house like that

00:54:05.600 you can't just say

00:54:06.220 oh my man give me the money

00:54:07.560 bullshit

00:54:08.140 that was something

00:54:08.840 you've done in the 60s

00:54:09.680 it's absolute bollocks

00:54:10.720 shit don't work like that

00:54:11.940 and it's getting this message

00:54:13.040 through to these kids

00:54:14.520 and there's no one in the country

00:54:15.460 that's got the solution

00:54:17.920 hey francis

00:54:19.760 do you like locals

00:54:21.000 i live in london mate

00:54:22.480 so obviously not

00:54:23.560 the only pleasure i get

00:54:25.200 from the locals

00:54:26.200 is when we share

00:54:27.140 an intimate moment

00:54:28.080 as we watch a japanese

00:54:29.540 tourist get trapped

00:54:30.920 in a tube door

00:54:31.920 that is good

00:54:33.620 but i wasn't talking

00:54:34.920 about the locals

00:54:36.000 i was talking about

00:54:37.420 our community

00:54:38.380 on locals

00:54:39.520 you mean the one

00:54:40.360 where you get phenomenal

00:54:41.660 behind the scenes content

00:54:43.100 when you

00:54:43.640 where you get to ask

00:54:48.020 incredible guests

00:54:49.660 like

00:54:50.140 jordan peterson

00:54:51.400 brett weinstein

00:54:52.760 bill burr

00:54:53.980 sam harris

00:54:55.080 adam carolla

00:54:56.360 heather highen

00:54:57.520 and others

00:54:58.520 your questions

00:54:59.420 not just that

00:55:00.540 you can get supporter

00:55:01.640 only benefits

00:55:02.580 like trigonometry mugs

00:55:03.920 monthly calls

00:55:05.060 with other top supporters

00:55:06.440 and even a regular meal

00:55:07.860 with me and francis

00:55:08.760 you also get

00:55:10.140 phenomenal

00:55:11.280 behind the scenes footage

00:55:12.900 of our trip to america

00:55:14.660 where we met

00:55:15.860 a whole host

00:55:17.060 of incredible guests

00:55:18.160 and gave ourselves

00:55:19.400 terminal indigestion

00:55:20.760 we're also starting

00:55:21.940 to do monthly giveaways

00:55:23.140 for locals only

00:55:24.120 the first one

00:55:24.880 will be signed copies

00:55:25.900 of andrew doyle's

00:55:26.940 new book

00:55:27.460 plus

00:55:28.380 you get access

00:55:29.580 to an incredible

00:55:30.800 community

00:55:31.500 of like-minded people

00:55:33.380 who share memes

00:55:34.320 have fun conversations

00:55:36.000 and most importantly

00:55:37.620 you get to make

00:55:39.060 new friends

00:55:39.760 you can support us

00:55:41.060 with as little as

00:55:41.920 seven dollars

00:55:42.580 or about five pounds

00:55:43.620 a month

00:55:43.960 or give us more

00:55:45.200 for the higher tier benefits

00:55:46.560 go to trigonometry.locals.com

00:55:49.680 go to trigonometry.locals.com

00:55:53.160 and support the show

00:55:54.700 Sikaris

00:55:56.480 do you think a lot

00:55:57.200 of these kids

00:55:57.660 are in love

00:55:58.100 with an image

00:55:58.660 they've got this image

00:56:00.020 in their heads

00:56:00.620 of what it means

00:56:01.420 to be a gangster

00:56:02.240 and 100% look

00:56:03.580 and I know

00:56:05.180 the feminists

00:56:06.220 will probably

00:56:06.540 criticize me

00:56:07.060 for this

00:56:07.360 and these

00:56:07.720 I don't know

00:56:09.620 do-gooders

00:56:10.220 but

00:56:10.500 these days

00:56:12.040 if

00:56:12.280 if you're a heterosexual man

00:56:14.880 for example

00:56:15.320 or you like women

00:56:16.300 for example

00:56:16.800 Sik

00:56:17.100 just using this

00:56:18.160 as an example

00:56:18.700 for a kid

00:56:20.800 to get a

00:56:21.380 decent

00:56:22.200 well I wouldn't even

00:56:23.580 say decent

00:56:23.980 because the girls

00:56:24.520 who go for criminals

00:56:25.200 are a bit

00:56:25.600 but

00:56:26.800 to get a decent

00:56:27.980 looking one

00:56:28.420 like a fit bed

00:56:29.420 as we describe it

00:56:31.000 you've got to have

00:56:32.280 something to buy

00:56:32.740 I know this is wrong

00:56:34.500 but these kids

00:56:35.140 are seeing it

00:56:35.560 I'm speaking

00:56:35.900 let me put myself

00:56:36.880 in their perspective

00:56:37.620 in their shoes

00:56:38.280 no girl is going

00:56:40.480 to look at me

00:56:41.400 if I'm a fucking

00:56:42.060 gimp

00:56:42.560 working in McDonald's

00:56:44.160 now I'm not

00:56:44.560 criticizing people

00:56:45.200 working in McDonald's

00:56:45.940 so I'm

00:56:46.480 looking at

00:56:46.940 I'm speaking

00:56:47.360 you're saying

00:56:47.800 this is how a kid

00:56:48.920 is thinking about this

00:56:49.840 look

00:56:50.440 just say it how it is

00:56:51.740 and we'll

00:56:52.340 we'll go with it

00:56:53.200 but just in case

00:56:53.700 you've got any followers

00:56:54.360 that work in McDonald's

00:56:55.220 I'm not putting

00:56:56.820 these people down

00:56:57.400 we try to have

00:56:58.340 honest conversation

00:56:59.320 what you're saying is

00:57:00.240 from this young man's

00:57:01.860 perspective

00:57:02.180 he's seeing

00:57:03.760 well if I want to

00:57:04.800 have an attractive

00:57:05.500 girlfriend

00:57:06.240 I can't be working

00:57:07.980 in McDonald's

00:57:08.560 I have to be something

00:57:09.780 yeah

00:57:10.040 correct

00:57:10.460 they want to create

00:57:12.580 a reputation

00:57:13.160 an image

00:57:13.780 and I know

00:57:15.580 it's bullshit

00:57:16.040 but they don't know

00:57:17.220 it's bullshit

00:57:17.680 and most of the

00:57:18.740 little young girls

00:57:19.540 not even the young girls

00:57:22.300 even the girls

00:57:22.800 in the 20s

00:57:23.720 whatever

00:57:24.360 30s even

00:57:25.640 the way some of them

00:57:27.100 are now

00:57:27.440 they want that image

00:57:28.400 they want that

00:57:28.900 when they go to a club

00:57:30.040 their fella's this

00:57:31.580 or their fella's that

00:57:32.440 but when they go out

00:57:33.700 even the young ones

00:57:34.380 who are 14

00:57:35.040 my boyfriend

00:57:36.800 or whatever they call them

00:57:38.060 in different cities

00:57:38.680 my fella

00:57:39.220 is such and such

00:57:40.700 he'll fucking kill you

00:57:41.500 he'll do this

00:57:42.100 he'll do that

00:57:43.160 that's what these girls want

00:57:44.600 because then

00:57:45.160 that image

00:57:46.140 what the lads got

00:57:46.920 then

00:57:47.240 goes off onto the girls

00:57:49.580 so no one fucks with the girl

00:57:50.740 and then she's

00:57:51.480 her credibility comes up

00:57:52.960 her status crawls up

00:57:54.220 because she's dating

00:57:55.060 Johnny fucking Tuchess

00:57:57.380 or whatever he wants

00:57:58.920 you know

00:57:59.460 Tommy Tenguns

00:58:01.120 he fella's Tommy Tenguns

00:58:02.600 so I'll do what the fuck

00:58:03.820 I want

00:58:04.060 she can speak to

00:58:04.800 whoever she wants

00:58:06.160 how she wants

00:58:06.840 because if anyone reacts

00:58:08.160 to her

00:58:08.520 any of her peers

00:58:10.160 give a shit

00:58:10.660 her fella

00:58:11.180 they don't want the shit

00:58:12.520 of her fella

00:58:12.960 so status

00:58:14.100 is a massive thing

00:58:15.660 just that

00:58:16.140 if you're a gimp

00:58:17.020 then you ain't getting

00:58:18.780 that woman

00:58:19.160 I don't want to come

00:58:21.800 across offensive

00:58:22.360 but

00:58:22.640 out there

00:58:23.720 if you're a gimp

00:58:24.860 you're going to end up

00:58:25.380 with some

00:58:25.700 little spotty gimpy girl

00:58:27.340 and who wants to be seen

00:58:28.700 with a gimpy girl

00:58:29.400 I've got a gimpy girl now

00:58:31.840 so

00:58:32.100 sorry

00:58:33.920 I shouldn't have even

00:58:34.720 called her that

00:58:35.080 but you know what I mean

00:58:35.620 she's high up in her company

00:58:38.280 she's normal

00:58:38.820 she wears glasses

00:58:39.760 she looks like

00:58:40.380 Harry Potter

00:58:41.180 but I like her

00:58:42.080 that's what you need in life

00:58:44.000 you need one legit

00:58:44.720 you know what I mean

00:58:45.060 whereas

00:58:45.320 these kids

00:58:47.060 don't want that type of stuff

00:58:48.580 they want

00:58:49.000 the Beyonce type

00:58:50.940 or

00:58:51.200 the big booty

00:58:52.220 the big legs

00:58:52.920 and the twerking

00:58:54.340 and she's got loads of followers

00:58:56.060 on fucking

00:58:56.540 what's that thing called

00:58:57.420 Instagram

00:58:57.900 TikToks

00:58:58.660 TikToks

00:58:59.300 my Instagram followers

00:59:00.340 and I've got

00:59:01.220 50,000 likes

00:59:02.500 on me

00:59:03.100 on me

00:59:03.600 semi-naked picture

00:59:04.400 that's what these kids want

00:59:06.400 status

00:59:07.060 reputation

00:59:08.000 so working in McDonald's

00:59:09.740 ain't going to get you no status

00:59:10.700 unless you go to

00:59:11.620 flipping burgers

00:59:12.220 and you can flip a burger

00:59:13.100 in six seconds

00:59:13.800 and get it out on the

00:59:15.220 but it's bollocks

00:59:16.600 and so that's why

00:59:18.660 we've got to change

00:59:19.420 the ideology

00:59:20.040 of these kids

00:59:20.760 that

00:59:22.020 okay

00:59:22.400 you've got this

00:59:23.060 lovely looking girl

00:59:24.320 now

00:59:24.620 but when you go to jail

00:59:26.260 she'll be fucking

00:59:28.400 your mate

00:59:28.740 trust me

00:59:30.300 or your adversary

00:59:32.060 your gang member

00:59:32.780 rival

00:59:33.340 will be around

00:59:34.580 fucking her in your bed

00:59:36.120 because that's the way

00:59:37.360 that's the way

00:59:38.100 if you attract

00:59:39.280 that type of energy

00:59:40.180 that type of person

00:59:41.080 then the outcome

00:59:42.520 is always going to be negative

00:59:43.440 because if you can't

00:59:44.700 sustain there

00:59:45.240 and maintain that woman

00:59:46.240 in prison

00:59:46.940 if you're a good person

00:59:48.580 working in McDonald's

00:59:49.400 you'll get a good woman

00:59:50.120 100%

00:59:51.900 you'll be loyal and faithful

00:59:52.840 where

00:59:53.720 if it's a woman

00:59:54.800 who goes for these

00:59:55.420 little gang members

00:59:56.120 and wants her status

00:59:56.900 that's all she wants

00:59:58.380 she likes the status

01:00:00.860 and the reputation

01:00:01.500 the moment you don't have that

01:00:02.900 she's going to find

01:00:03.720 someone who's got it

01:00:04.680 correct

01:00:04.920 and when you go to prison

01:00:06.140 you no longer have that

01:00:07.040 yeah

01:00:07.600 because when you go to prison

01:00:08.520 people are like

01:00:09.180 oh yeah remember him

01:00:09.980 he was mad

01:00:10.380 but fuck him

01:00:11.220 now he's doing the tent

01:00:11.960 he can't do nothing to us

01:00:13.300 so he loses his influence

01:00:14.760 he loses his credibility

01:00:15.880 and so on

01:00:17.040 and so this girl

01:00:18.320 she's thriving for that

01:00:19.820 what do I do now

01:00:20.800 he can't protect me

01:00:21.660 when he was in prison

01:00:22.180 he can't

01:00:23.340 I haven't got that status

01:00:24.220 so then she'll go on

01:00:25.020 to someone else

01:00:25.480 and that's the way

01:00:26.200 them girls are

01:00:26.720 it's like the girl

01:00:27.420 I was with at the time

01:00:28.240 when I went to prison

01:00:29.540 for shooting that lad

01:00:30.380 she ended up getting

01:00:31.860 with the lad a shot

01:00:32.520 it was a bizarre

01:00:33.720 state of affairs

01:00:34.500 but I thought

01:00:35.000 he's been selling the ranger

01:00:36.780 and he's there in the bedroom

01:00:38.160 and I thought

01:00:38.580 put him on

01:00:39.500 and I thought

01:00:40.340 what the fuck am I even doing

01:00:41.540 speaking to him

01:00:41.960 but I thought

01:00:43.020 bygones be bygones

01:00:44.260 I apologised to him

01:00:45.300 and said look

01:00:45.700 I'm sorry for what I've done

01:00:47.000 and he explained my reasons

01:00:48.520 and he apologised back to me

01:00:50.340 and it was water under the bridge

01:00:52.420 it was done and dusted

01:00:53.400 I've seen him since

01:00:54.360 when I got out

01:00:54.860 and you know

01:00:55.660 I let on to him

01:00:57.300 and that was that

01:00:57.720 I never stopped and spoken

01:00:58.480 we're never going to be mates

01:00:59.340 but he forgave me

01:01:01.160 well he said he forgave me

01:01:02.180 and I generally apologise

01:01:03.800 and it was genuine

01:01:04.480 Sikaris

01:01:05.980 there's a lot of people

01:01:07.480 who are saying

01:01:08.020 look

01:01:08.260 a large part of the problem

01:01:09.980 is you know

01:01:10.420 drill music for instance

01:01:12.040 it glamorises it

01:01:13.820 the kids listen to it

01:01:15.340 look I don't believe this

01:01:16.660 but there's a lot of people

01:01:17.720 out there

01:01:18.120 and this is an argument

01:01:18.880 that they consistently use

01:01:20.380 and in the 90s

01:01:21.560 it was you know

01:01:22.160 gangster rap

01:01:22.980 what do you say

01:01:23.700 to these people?

01:01:24.940 Prince Harry

01:01:25.700 I'm sure it was Prince Harry

01:01:26.560 or Prince

01:01:26.980 what's his brother's name?

01:01:28.020 Prince William

01:01:28.720 William or Harry

01:01:30.340 one of them listens

01:01:31.900 I remember

01:01:32.560 one of them saying

01:01:33.960 they listen to

01:01:34.480 gangster rap

01:01:35.860 or 50 Pence

01:01:37.140 whatever the fuck

01:01:37.760 his name is

01:01:38.520 50 Pence is such a shit name

01:01:41.060 for a rapper

01:01:41.760 you know

01:01:43.020 the American rapper

01:01:43.900 you know

01:01:44.160 50 Cent

01:01:44.960 yeah

01:01:45.240 women in a club

01:01:47.480 and all that

01:01:47.860 type of shit

01:01:48.600 one of them listens to him

01:01:50.100 and you don't see

01:01:51.020 Prince Harry and William

01:01:51.920 running around London

01:01:52.660 with a glove

01:01:53.820 with a mask on

01:01:54.720 it's bullshit

01:01:55.860 but

01:01:56.700 rap music

01:01:58.240 in itself

01:01:59.360 doesn't

01:02:00.460 make people

01:02:03.280 into a monster

01:02:04.000 it doesn't make them

01:02:04.620 go and get a gun

01:02:05.380 and go and rob someone

01:02:06.120 but

01:02:06.360 it just reinforces

01:02:08.220 the ideology

01:02:08.820 I'd say

01:02:09.180 it's still got to be there

01:02:10.200 it's like

01:02:11.760 chlamydia

01:02:12.880 it's got to be there

01:02:15.060 to spread it

01:02:15.580 it's got to be there

01:02:16.080 to grow

01:02:16.440 do you understand

01:02:17.480 what I'm saying?

01:02:18.040 if it's not there

01:02:18.820 rap music

01:02:20.920 may enforce

01:02:21.600 that ideology

01:02:22.260 do you know

01:02:23.220 what I mean?

01:02:24.580 and I think

01:02:25.240 the main issue

01:02:26.100 of rap music

01:02:26.820 drill music

01:02:27.280 whatever you want to call it

01:02:28.180 is that

01:02:29.480 they slate each other

01:02:31.480 so one gang will slate

01:02:32.940 another gang

01:02:33.480 like one gang will say

01:02:35.100 rapping about

01:02:36.180 whatever

01:02:36.500 he's rapping about

01:02:37.800 and they'll go

01:02:38.320 Terry Tibbs

01:02:40.960 suck your mum

01:02:41.460 or

01:02:42.360 the North

01:02:43.700 G

01:02:43.980 whatever they're called

01:02:44.980 I fucked your sister

01:02:46.820 do you see where I'm coming from?

01:02:48.520 so it's still got to be there

01:02:49.540 whereas if two kids

01:02:50.840 who work in McDonald's

01:02:51.900 do a rap

01:02:52.860 and go

01:02:53.160 oh your cheeseburger was shit

01:02:54.480 the McDonald's worker

01:02:56.880 isn't going to go and kill him

01:02:57.740 yeah

01:02:58.080 so it doesn't

01:02:58.900 it's still got to be there

01:03:00.160 it's already got to be within them

01:03:01.940 yeah

01:03:02.240 but rap music

01:03:03.340 does

01:03:03.760 it expedites

01:03:05.180 the trouble

01:03:06.300 it can expedite it

01:03:07.720 I understand

01:03:08.100 but

01:03:08.460 then people are still going to

01:03:10.280 either way

01:03:10.860 they're still going to have

01:03:12.220 beef and dramas anyway

01:03:13.580 yeah

01:03:14.020 so I don't think

01:03:14.720 it might create

01:03:15.780 rap music might create

01:03:17.480 drama between two gangs

01:03:19.640 it's just my opinion

01:03:20.340 but

01:03:21.200 they were already gangs

01:03:22.940 so even if that rap music

01:03:24.140 never made them shoot him

01:03:25.240 he would have shot someone

01:03:26.600 for a different reason

01:03:27.400 do you see what I'm saying?

01:03:28.780 so they're already

01:03:29.300 that type of character

01:03:30.780 I guess the argument is

01:03:31.800 when you talked about

01:03:32.620 people having an image

01:03:33.640 in their head of

01:03:34.520 it reinforces it

01:03:35.360 it reinforces that

01:03:36.520 with the cars

01:03:37.100 and they're putting a video

01:03:37.740 so it reinforces it

01:03:38.860 and it gets the image

01:03:40.520 out there

01:03:41.660 the spectacles

01:03:42.360 the cars

01:03:42.880 the women

01:03:43.220 the dogs

01:03:43.760 the discs

01:03:45.140 the gold chains

01:03:45.700 the watches

01:03:46.160 and the boys

01:03:47.460 you're on a video

01:03:48.420 with 10 of your mates

01:03:49.920 if they were rapping

01:03:51.280 about being skint

01:03:52.180 and going to prison

01:03:53.000 it probably would have

01:03:54.020 a different impact

01:03:54.760 look if they were rapping

01:03:55.800 about skinny jeans

01:03:57.660 and ballet dancing

01:03:58.300 then the world

01:03:59.560 would be a great place

01:04:00.360 do you understand

01:04:01.400 but they're rapping

01:04:02.020 about their lifestyles

01:04:02.840 but half of these rappers

01:04:04.200 who were doing their life

01:04:04.960 they've never lived that life

01:04:05.860 they're full of shit

01:04:06.440 and I think

01:04:08.020 half of you

01:04:08.800 there's one from the Midlands

01:04:11.100 who raps about this

01:04:12.020 and I think

01:04:12.480 what the fuck

01:04:13.700 have you ever done?

01:04:14.960 you can't rap

01:04:15.720 about that shit

01:04:16.300 because you're not

01:04:16.740 involved in that

01:04:17.960 so they're rapping

01:04:18.940 about a 50 calibre

01:04:21.580 and mate

01:04:21.900 you've never even seen

01:04:22.540 a 50 calibre

01:04:23.140 you probably can't even

01:04:24.400 spell calibre

01:04:25.140 do you know what I mean?

01:04:26.640 so half of me

01:04:27.340 were rapping

01:04:27.620 I just full of shit

01:04:28.260 anyway

01:04:28.500 but I wouldn't say

01:04:29.800 rap music

01:04:30.580 creates monsters

01:04:32.520 I think

01:04:33.200 it can expedite

01:04:34.760 the situation

01:04:35.220 yeah

01:04:35.660 that makes sense

01:04:36.720 yeah

01:04:37.020 that makes complete sense

01:04:38.260 that makes sense

01:04:38.940 so before we wrap up

01:04:41.420 should we talk about

01:04:42.480 policing a little bit

01:04:43.340 because prison

01:04:44.220 and policing

01:04:44.820 and all of that

01:04:45.520 do we have

01:04:47.000 the right approach

01:04:48.040 to dealing with people

01:04:49.200 like the person

01:04:50.040 that you used to be

01:04:50.840 in this country

01:04:51.360 because obviously

01:04:52.080 in the end

01:04:53.140 for you

01:04:53.720 going to prison

01:04:54.880 for a second time

01:04:55.820 did help you

01:04:56.560 to change your life

01:04:57.500 and turn it around

01:04:58.300 you might say

01:04:59.880 while I was in prison

01:05:00.640 yeah

01:05:00.800 watching that programme

01:05:01.540 and a few other factors

01:05:02.480 combined with that

01:05:03.180 it did change me

01:05:03.720 but I think

01:05:05.800 the public

01:05:07.280 are moaning

01:05:08.400 that they want

01:05:09.400 something done

01:05:09.760 about a violent crime

01:05:10.640 but the same public

01:05:11.920 are then moaning

01:05:12.740 about stop and search

01:05:13.640 now my opinion

01:05:15.400 I used to get stopped

01:05:17.180 more than anyone

01:05:17.740 I was stopped

01:05:18.460 by armed response

01:05:19.080 so I was stopped

01:05:19.820 ten times a week

01:05:21.280 sometimes five times a day

01:05:22.900 in the building

01:05:23.760 in Maersad

01:05:24.280 constantly by armed response

01:05:25.840 constantly by medics

01:05:26.800 so I know

01:05:28.400 more than anyone

01:05:29.500 how effective

01:05:31.120 stop and search is

01:05:32.120 do you know what I mean

01:05:33.040 in Maersad police notice

01:05:34.160 I was stopped

01:05:34.780 thousands and thousands

01:05:36.360 of times

01:05:36.820 from 2009

01:05:39.240 to 2016

01:05:41.900 it was mostly

01:05:42.780 2009

01:05:43.520 2012

01:05:44.060 mostly

01:05:44.760 but I was still

01:05:45.920 stopped after

01:05:46.400 sometimes three

01:05:47.960 four

01:05:48.240 five

01:05:48.540 six times a day

01:05:49.220 so I know

01:05:49.860 more than anyone

01:05:50.480 stop and search

01:05:52.840 do you know what I mean

01:05:53.700 and I can tell you

01:05:54.540 100%

01:05:55.340 it disrupts

01:05:56.500 it won't prevent you

01:05:57.560 being a criminal

01:05:58.680 like I was a criminal

01:05:59.940 and stopping me

01:06:00.660 didn't prevent me

01:06:01.220 being a criminal

01:06:01.720 but

01:06:02.620 it makes him

01:06:04.320 more reluctant

01:06:05.000 it makes him

01:06:05.520 more aware

01:06:06.020 and when other gangs

01:06:06.940 would come from

01:06:07.460 out of the way

01:06:08.040 to meet me

01:06:09.060 it was

01:06:10.200 I don't want to

01:06:10.980 come across the matrix

01:06:11.680 I want to avoid the matrix

01:06:12.800 I don't want to do this

01:06:13.980 I don't want to do that

01:06:14.640 so it does disrupt you

01:06:16.260 stop and search

01:06:17.020 is massively effective

01:06:19.100 and you've got all these

01:06:20.300 MPs like

01:06:21.140 you know

01:06:22.440 I like some views

01:06:24.060 David Lammy has

01:06:24.800 and Don Butler

01:06:26.480 and things like that

01:06:27.140 but they're against

01:06:28.120 stop and search

01:06:28.740 and the black community

01:06:30.600 in London

01:06:30.940 is against it

01:06:31.520 and I'm saying

01:06:32.140 it's the black community

01:06:34.060 who are being killed

01:06:34.940 and he's a moan

01:06:37.740 on what's happening

01:06:39.240 the consequence of gun crime

01:06:40.520 the consequence of knife crime

01:06:41.540 but

01:06:41.740 you need to stand up

01:06:43.720 as a community

01:06:44.440 for example

01:06:45.740 I'm using the black community

01:06:46.900 as an example

01:06:47.520 because a lot of them

01:06:48.240 moan in London

01:06:48.860 about stop and search

01:06:49.920 like Lammy

01:06:50.780 Don Butler

01:06:51.220 and so on

01:06:51.640 and the councillors

01:06:52.720 and MPs

01:06:53.180 but you need to support

01:06:54.840 stop and search

01:06:55.320 you need to support

01:06:56.100 the police

01:06:56.540 and they're saying

01:06:57.500 but it's racist

01:06:58.160 and they're stopping

01:06:58.900 black people

01:06:59.380 I'm white

01:07:00.960 and I was stopped

01:07:01.700 in Liverpool

01:07:02.100 more than anyone

01:07:02.880 I don't think

01:07:03.940 there was anyone

01:07:04.360 in the country

01:07:04.800 that was stopped

01:07:05.300 as much as me

01:07:05.960 and the mayor's side

01:07:07.200 police will know this

01:07:07.800 so I'm not exaggerating

01:07:08.620 I was constantly stopped

01:07:09.580 I was harassed by them

01:07:11.020 but it was

01:07:11.600 a proportionate measure

01:07:13.400 so the black community

01:07:14.620 for example

01:07:15.040 in London

01:07:15.440 need to get behind

01:07:17.020 the police

01:07:17.400 and support policing

01:07:20.000 support stopping

01:07:20.920 search

01:07:21.780 support disrupting

01:07:23.640 and if they stop

01:07:24.300 a black kid

01:07:24.820 ten times a day

01:07:26.380 then if he's affiliated

01:07:28.760 to gangs

01:07:29.340 then it's justified

01:07:31.100 it's proportionate

01:07:32.440 otherwise

01:07:32.820 that's deterring him

01:07:35.280 from carrying

01:07:35.880 an handgun

01:07:36.760 a firearm

01:07:38.240 or perhaps a knife

01:07:39.900 do you understand

01:07:40.840 what I'm saying

01:07:41.240 so if any of the

01:07:42.960 London black community

01:07:44.360 are watching this

01:07:45.700 they need to change

01:07:46.360 their approach

01:07:46.820 their kids are being killed

01:07:48.420 black on black

01:07:49.840 gang crime

01:07:50.420 in London

01:07:50.760 is rife

01:07:51.180 and I don't even

01:07:52.480 blame the kids

01:07:52.980 I blame the parents

01:07:53.780 and I blame the community

01:07:54.620 I blame the MPs

01:07:55.480 and I blame the councillors

01:07:56.380 because they're all

01:07:57.440 do I love the police?

01:07:59.760 probably not

01:08:00.240 there's certain police officers

01:08:01.340 that I don't trust

01:08:02.040 there's certain police forces

01:08:02.920 that I don't trust

01:08:03.640 there's some I like

01:08:04.700 better than others

01:08:05.280 do you know what I mean?

01:08:06.280 I've had quite a bit

01:08:06.960 of support of the police

01:08:07.760 since I've got out

01:08:08.300 so it doesn't mean

01:08:09.820 I'm pro-police

01:08:10.520 and I love the police

01:08:11.120 but I'm saying

01:08:11.720 from my experience

01:08:13.400 and I think I'm more experienced

01:08:15.360 than anyone

01:08:16.220 on this subject

01:08:17.400 to say

01:08:18.300 starting a search works

01:08:19.420 and there needs to be more

01:08:21.100 a lot more support

01:08:22.200 for policing

01:08:22.640 now if the police

01:08:23.960 are stopping someone

01:08:24.580 like yourself

01:08:25.120 ten times a day

01:08:25.860 whether you're white

01:08:26.900 black

01:08:27.080 whatever you may be

01:08:27.740 and you're not

01:08:28.140 affiliated to crime

01:08:28.860 then yeah

01:08:29.740 the MPs need to come on

01:08:31.420 down on the police

01:08:32.480 like a ton of bricks

01:08:33.120 and challenge them

01:08:33.920 why are you stopping

01:08:34.400 this person

01:08:34.820 he's not affiliated to crime

01:08:35.780 it's just the odd stop

01:08:37.140 because you fit the description

01:08:38.580 or because you fit that profile

01:08:39.980 profiling as well

01:08:41.000 works

01:08:41.360 it's massively effective

01:08:42.500 like if I was walking

01:08:43.940 around Liverpool

01:08:44.400 in a trackie

01:08:45.180 with a bald head

01:08:46.960 or a cap

01:08:47.420 and the police

01:08:48.180 stopped me

01:08:48.480 it's just

01:08:49.060 it's tough shit

01:08:49.840 I fit the

01:08:50.620 profile of the people

01:08:52.340 who are committing the crime

01:08:53.220 and if an area

01:08:54.560 in London for example

01:08:55.540 if it's black on black crime

01:08:57.220 black people are going

01:08:57.880 to get stopped

01:08:58.280 and you need to accept that

01:09:00.400 as one of the consequences

01:09:02.140 of gun crime

01:09:04.000 and to reduce

01:09:05.320 in order to reduce

01:09:06.240 gun and knife crime

01:09:07.120 there needs to be more

01:09:08.020 stopping search

01:09:08.580 and the community

01:09:09.080 needs to get behind it

01:09:09.880 and that's where any community

01:09:10.940 even white communities

01:09:11.660 in Liverpool

01:09:12.060 I've seen one where

01:09:13.720 someone was getting stopped

01:09:14.420 you probably weren't a gang member

01:09:15.360 by Diazda

01:09:16.360 and the woman ran over

01:09:17.860 and grabbed the policeman

01:09:18.520 I'm like go on run

01:09:19.680 and I think

01:09:20.260 Liverpool's a totally different

01:09:23.040 kettle of fish

01:09:24.240 but one of the other things

01:09:25.520 I want to mention

01:09:26.460 as well as

01:09:27.140 I support stopping search

01:09:29.360 and I believe it's effective

01:09:30.220 in saving kids lives

01:09:31.700 saving the lives of young people

01:09:32.980 and reducing violent crime

01:09:34.060 so people need to decide

01:09:35.820 what they want

01:09:36.280 they are the one

01:09:36.820 to reduce crime

01:09:38.200 and support the police

01:09:39.200 in doing so

01:09:40.300 or they can be anti-police

01:09:41.640 and anti-stop and search

01:09:42.460 and they'll continue

01:09:43.360 to get the results

01:09:44.020 what they're getting

01:09:44.460 which is numerous stabbings

01:09:46.220 numerous shootings

01:09:46.860 and more and more people

01:09:47.900 if you're a gang member

01:09:49.140 and your MPs

01:09:52.080 are going against

01:09:53.400 stopping search

01:09:53.920 that's going to give you

01:09:54.920 more confidence

01:09:55.700 to carry a gun

01:09:56.780 or to carry a knife

01:09:57.480 because you're going to think

01:09:58.660 the prospect of being stopped

01:09:59.840 is reduced

01:10:00.540 as a result of the pressure

01:10:02.280 being put on the police

01:10:03.000 not to stop you

01:10:03.560 do you see what I'm saying

01:10:04.360 so it's going to create

01:10:05.420 more people carrying weapons

01:10:06.580 whereas when I was

01:10:07.980 involved in crime

01:10:08.980 being stopped

01:10:10.680 by the police

01:10:11.120 was a massive deterrent

01:10:12.160 in carrying a weapon

01:10:12.920 do you know what I mean

01:10:13.920 so the only other thing

01:10:15.360 I want to cover as well

01:10:16.260 I don't know if there's

01:10:16.900 anything else before

01:10:17.640 no I was going to ask you

01:10:18.900 something else actually

01:10:19.720 which is

01:10:20.320 you know

01:10:21.440 we're having this

01:10:22.300 we're really grateful

01:10:23.200 to have you on

01:10:23.840 and I look forward

01:10:24.960 to seeing how the work

01:10:26.020 you're now doing

01:10:26.700 helps kids

01:10:27.420 and all of that

01:10:28.380 but I just

01:10:29.560 I can't help but think

01:10:30.920 like

01:10:31.180 we are a first world country

01:10:32.860 Britain

01:10:33.240 in the 21st century

01:10:35.020 it's 2022

01:10:35.800 and we're talking about

01:10:37.860 young people in our country

01:10:39.140 stabbing each other to death

01:10:40.520 shooting each other with guns

01:10:41.740 like

01:10:42.560 that's not normal man

01:10:43.740 it's not

01:10:44.420 it's not normal

01:10:45.480 how do we

01:10:46.320 how are we going to solve that

01:10:47.460 as a society

01:10:48.140 how are we going to

01:10:48.880 how are we going to get to a point

01:10:50.080 where we're not having

01:10:51.220 to have this conversation

01:10:52.260 look

01:10:52.880 you're never going to eradicate

01:10:54.440 violent crime

01:10:55.700 you're never going to eradicate it

01:10:58.040 but

01:10:58.300 you can reduce it

01:10:59.460 significantly

01:11:00.080 and

01:11:00.960 I

01:11:01.760 I'm not just saying this

01:11:02.980 I've shouted this

01:11:04.200 for over a year

01:11:04.800 I strongly believe

01:11:06.620 I'm confident

01:11:07.340 I've got the solution

01:11:08.560 not to eradicate it

01:11:10.440 but to reduce it

01:11:12.260 significantly

01:11:12.980 and it's aimed at the young people

01:11:14.980 who are the next generation

01:11:16.040 who are involved in this stuff

01:11:17.320 it's not aimed at the older ones

01:11:18.340 because they're more

01:11:18.960 harder to reform

01:11:20.240 the more ingrained

01:11:21.600 a behaviour becomes

01:11:22.700 the more harder it is to

01:11:24.080 de-radicalise

01:11:25.660 and divert you

01:11:26.280 but

01:11:26.480 I believe I've got the solution

01:11:28.180 but it's very controversial

01:11:29.480 it's something different

01:11:31.080 and it's something much

01:11:32.520 going to attract

01:11:33.940 a lot of criticism

01:11:34.760 what I'm asking people

01:11:37.020 is

01:11:37.440 allow it to take its course

01:11:39.720 and look at the end result

01:11:41.060 it's a means to an end

01:11:43.560 the means being used

01:11:44.860 is massively controversial

01:11:46.160 the language used

01:11:47.020 is

01:11:47.340 inappropriate

01:11:48.620 it's not

01:11:49.340 all the people I'm speaking to

01:11:50.960 all the parents

01:11:51.520 are saying

01:11:51.860 yeah

01:11:52.060 this is what we need

01:11:53.400 we need this

01:11:54.000 because this is what they listen to

01:11:55.180 do you know what I mean

01:11:55.920 the mentors that we're going to be using

01:11:57.280 and your average mentor

01:11:58.580 I don't want to give too many

01:12:01.080 tactics and strategies away

01:12:02.540 because everyone says

01:12:03.340 what's your solution

01:12:04.560 and I'm never going to tell them

01:12:05.700 because then they'll go and implement it

01:12:07.380 do you know what I mean

01:12:08.420 like there's a guy who's doing a programme

01:12:09.880 what I'm going to be doing

01:12:11.160 and he's tried to replicate it

01:12:14.200 and do it himself now

01:12:15.040 but it'll never work

01:12:16.080 because he hasn't got

01:12:16.760 what it takes

01:12:17.880 I'm not academically clever

01:12:19.120 but I know

01:12:20.080 I can resolve this issue

01:12:22.600 I don't mean resolve

01:12:23.920 in the sense of eradicate it

01:12:25.020 but I can reduce it

01:12:25.820 significantly

01:12:26.700 and I'm asking people just to

01:12:28.180 don't look at the means

01:12:29.900 or the tactics I'm using

01:12:31.020 and don't criticise that

01:12:32.320 look at the end result

01:12:33.740 if I can

01:12:34.460 get 75% of people

01:12:36.660 on the programme

01:12:37.200 if I can reform them

01:12:38.160 have them reformed

01:12:39.360 then

01:12:40.260 the means

01:12:41.340 ought to be irrelevant

01:12:42.240 do you see where I'm coming from

01:12:44.520 it sort of depends

01:12:45.960 on the means

01:12:46.460 I suppose

01:12:47.020 yeah obviously

01:12:47.460 it's not going to be unlawful

01:12:48.560 but it's going to be

01:12:49.600 a professional

01:12:50.880 look at them

01:12:51.360 and go

01:12:51.560 put their hands up

01:12:53.640 there was one investor

01:12:54.680 that was deterred

01:12:55.700 because

01:12:56.740 I called one of the kids

01:12:58.460 a little bastard

01:12:58.980 so he said

01:13:00.360 no I don't want to

01:13:01.660 put my name to that

01:13:02.300 why me

01:13:03.260 they're calling them

01:13:03.680 a little bastard

01:13:04.200 and I'm sure they've been

01:13:05.060 called worse

01:13:05.500 they're shooting

01:13:06.420 and stabbing people

01:13:07.040 they're flying around

01:13:07.860 with guns

01:13:08.220 they're taking people

01:13:09.240 out of cars

01:13:09.680 at night point

01:13:10.140 and you're

01:13:11.140 saying calling them

01:13:12.420 a little bastard

01:13:13.020 is inappropriate

01:13:14.740 people

01:13:15.940 normal people

01:13:17.240 and professionals

01:13:17.860 youth workers

01:13:18.540 psychologists

01:13:19.600 criminologists

01:13:20.360 demand their approach

01:13:22.140 if they've got the solution

01:13:23.920 go and apply it

01:13:25.140 and reduce the issue

01:13:27.000 but they haven't

01:13:27.620 they're all scratching their heads

01:13:28.700 what do we do about knife crime

01:13:29.840 well don't criticize me

01:13:31.500 until you see the outcome

01:13:32.740 the program

01:13:33.780 when I run a pilot

01:13:34.680 I'm trying to

01:13:35.260 get funding

01:13:36.300 the pilot's going to cost me

01:13:37.500 12,000 pounds

01:13:38.300 to run for three months

01:13:39.200 and

01:13:40.500 in order for me to get funding

01:13:42.200 I need to run a pilot scheme

01:13:43.860 what I'm doing

01:13:44.480 what I'm going to be implementing

01:13:45.860 and get an outcome evaluation

01:13:47.840 so what are the results

01:13:49.180 did it achieve the intended results

01:13:50.940 and how many people were reformed

01:13:52.780 and I want to reform

01:13:54.100 a minimum of 75%

01:13:55.800 of people

01:13:56.660 that complete the program

01:13:57.760 I'm saying

01:13:59.140 I'm giving them

01:13:59.640 more or less guarantee

01:14:00.480 75% of people

01:14:02.400 who come through this program

01:14:03.460 and complete it

01:14:04.420 will reform

01:14:05.520 will be reformed

01:14:06.540 now

01:14:07.280 I want to run the pilot scheme

01:14:08.780 in this city

01:14:09.640 in the north

01:14:10.140 and

01:14:11.220 it's

01:14:12.140 it's 12,000 pounds

01:14:15.780 to run

01:14:16.020 one of the things

01:14:16.960 I've done

01:14:17.220 I've set up

01:14:17.600 a GoFundMe

01:14:18.140 where people

01:14:19.060 automatically look

01:14:19.920 and think

01:14:20.220 GoFundMe

01:14:20.860 it's a scam

01:14:21.300 ex-criminal

01:14:22.380 he's this

01:14:22.940 he's that

01:14:23.260 he's using it

01:14:23.740 I don't know

01:14:24.480 what they think

01:14:24.880 I'm using it for

01:14:25.420 to set up another problem

01:14:26.300 maybe

01:14:26.560 which is not the case

01:14:27.360 but people

01:14:28.360 automatically assume

01:14:29.640 the worst

01:14:30.000 and it's not

01:14:30.720 I've got major scrutiny

01:14:31.820 on me

01:14:32.080 I've got a lot of scrutiny

01:14:32.860 there's a lot of eyes

01:14:33.540 watching me

01:14:33.940 so

01:14:34.100 if I was to fail

01:14:35.640 on this program

01:14:36.240 then it's only me

01:14:37.720 that's

01:14:39.240 going to get the backlash

01:14:40.460 you understand what I'm saying

01:14:41.320 but

01:14:41.500 I'm confident at work

01:14:42.900 I'm more than confident

01:14:43.740 and that's what I want to try

01:14:44.960 and implement

01:14:45.380 to show

01:14:46.340 I don't want to be speaking about it

01:14:48.440 I want to put it into practice

01:14:49.520 and get it done

01:14:50.800 and show and demonstrate

01:14:51.660 and the councillors

01:14:52.740 I've spoke to

01:14:53.240 the councillors

01:14:53.760 I've had a few meetings

01:14:54.660 with different councillors

01:14:55.540 and they're saying

01:14:57.160 ok yeah

01:14:57.980 if it works

01:15:00.000 we're happy to back you

01:15:01.480 do you know what I mean

01:15:02.480 and then the funding will come

01:15:03.880 then I can go for

01:15:04.700 government funding

01:15:05.600 then I can go for

01:15:06.200 private investment

01:15:07.020 even investors are saying

01:15:08.520 there's many investors

01:15:09.240 that are saying

01:15:09.600 we won't put our name to it now

01:15:10.720 because we don't know the outcome

01:15:12.340 you know

01:15:13.260 I could go and get loads of kids

01:15:14.940 and recruit them back into gangs

01:15:16.000 for all I know

01:15:16.540 or send them out in the streets

01:15:18.160 with loads of guns

01:15:18.780 who knows

01:15:19.280 people don't want to take

01:15:20.840 the risk in you

01:15:21.480 until they see the outcome

01:15:23.800 yeah you've got to prove it

01:15:25.300 100%

01:15:25.940 and that's what I'm trying to do

01:15:26.800 so that's why I'm trying to

01:15:27.640 raise the 12,000 pounds

01:15:28.700 to run it

01:15:29.080 it works out

01:15:30.100 less than 27 pounds

01:15:31.560 70 per kid

01:15:32.300 less than 28 pounds

01:15:33.220 per day per kid

01:15:34.040 and out of that money

01:15:35.300 out of that 28 pounds

01:15:36.380 they're getting a gym membership

01:15:37.260 they're getting a personal trainer

01:15:39.540 it's all that activities covered

01:15:41.400 it's the rent of the classroom

01:15:42.620 it's the work booklets

01:15:43.680 it's getting them to

01:15:45.220 and from the classroom

01:15:45.960 everything is covered

01:15:46.760 the food

01:15:47.760 so they'll be fed as well

01:15:49.400 so it's covering

01:15:50.200 28 pounds a day

01:15:51.240 is a minimum

01:15:52.560 I'm not taking a wage

01:15:53.420 out of that

01:15:53.740 no one's taking a wage

01:15:54.540 people are going to be volunteering

01:15:55.440 but 28 pounds a day

01:15:56.540 is going to be minimum

01:15:57.920 the lawyer who's volunteering

01:15:59.200 he's not getting paid

01:16:00.220 everyone's volunteering

01:16:01.520 their own time

01:16:02.860 and effort

01:16:04.640 to this programme

01:16:05.740 because some people

01:16:06.720 are confident in it

01:16:07.780 do you know what I mean

01:16:08.160 and I'm 100%

01:16:09.840 that it'll work

01:16:10.980 there's no doubt about it

01:16:12.200 I recruited kids into gangs

01:16:13.860 I've radicalised kids

01:16:14.740 and another thing

01:16:16.120 that happened to me

01:16:17.000 I was radicalised in prison

01:16:17.980 by people who were affiliated

01:16:20.000 to Al-Qaeda

01:16:20.560 and that strategy

01:16:22.760 what was used

01:16:23.960 to radicalise me

01:16:24.760 I then went on

01:16:26.160 to use that strategy

01:16:26.840 with kids on the street

01:16:27.540 and I want to still

01:16:28.280 continue to use that

01:16:29.300 but for the opposite effect

01:16:30.220 so what you've got to do

01:16:32.260 effectively

01:16:32.700 is de-radicalise kids

01:16:34.440 so they've got an ideology

01:16:36.840 which is ingrained in them

01:16:37.820 you've got to

01:16:38.660 de-radicalise

01:16:39.420 and change that ideology

01:16:40.480 change that mindset

01:16:41.240 change that way of thinking

01:16:42.200 do you know what I mean

01:16:43.220 it's the point of just

01:16:43.760 putting them on a programme

01:16:44.580 and keeping them manageable

01:16:45.220 for three months

01:16:45.820 I want to make sure

01:16:47.680 that when they finish

01:16:48.400 the programme

01:16:48.800 and complete the programme

01:16:49.640 that they're going to stay

01:16:50.480 on that right path

01:16:51.060 and it's about changing

01:16:51.820 the mindset

01:16:52.220 changing the way of thinking

01:16:53.160 and you know

01:16:54.520 that's what I want to

01:16:55.360 the tactics

01:16:56.380 and strategies

01:16:57.300 what Al-Qaeda used

01:16:58.200 to groom me

01:16:59.240 and radicalise me

01:17:00.840 well one of the bonus questions

01:17:02.360 we'll ask for our locals only

01:17:03.980 will be about that

01:17:05.180 but for now

01:17:06.280 we wish you the best

01:17:07.020 of luck with it

01:17:07.620 we'll put all the links

01:17:08.800 in the video

01:17:09.360 so that people can follow up

01:17:10.880 we want you to succeed with it

01:17:12.900 we hope that you are able

01:17:13.780 to do that of course

01:17:14.520 yes definitely

01:17:14.940 thanks for your time man

01:17:16.260 we really appreciate it

01:17:17.360 before we let you go

01:17:18.960 we've got a couple of questions

01:17:20.380 for our locals only

01:17:21.200 which we'll ask you in a second

01:17:22.260 but we always finish the interview

01:17:23.840 with the same question

01:17:24.700 which is

01:17:25.200 what's the one thing

01:17:25.940 we're not talking about

01:17:26.920 that we really should be

01:17:28.000 use yourselves

01:17:31.040 or do you mean society

01:17:31.880 society

01:17:32.300 in respect of what

01:17:33.800 crime

01:17:34.180 anything at all

01:17:34.960 anything you want to talk about

01:17:36.280 anything you want to mention

01:17:37.200 I don't know

01:17:38.000 I don't really understand

01:17:39.240 stocks and shares

01:17:39.880 so the only thing I do understand

01:17:40.860 is crime and

01:17:42.040 things like that

01:17:43.080 so what

01:17:43.580 don't people know about

01:17:45.400 crime

01:17:46.000 prison

01:17:46.540 policing

01:17:47.160 that you think they really should

01:17:48.580 what people need to know

01:17:49.560 is prison

01:17:50.080 doesn't work

01:17:51.760 prison is just a warehouse

01:17:52.980 what contains criminals

01:17:55.220 until they're released

01:17:56.220 it does not work

01:17:56.940 it does not rehabilitate

01:17:57.860 prison can work

01:17:58.800 it can be effective

01:17:59.940 if the approach is changed

01:18:01.600 we're in prison

01:18:02.080 there needs to be effective

01:18:02.940 rehabilitation

01:18:03.580 but that's another subject

01:18:05.520 for another day

01:18:06.160 secondly

01:18:07.360 prisons are needed

01:18:08.280 to support

01:18:08.820 I support more prisons

01:18:09.920 and longer prison centres

01:18:11.240 for certain offenders

01:18:12.860 but

01:18:13.120 it's not working

01:18:14.300 it's just a university

01:18:15.900 for criminals

01:18:16.480 someone can go in

01:18:17.240 a shoplifter

01:18:18.120 and come out

01:18:18.540 a drug dealer

01:18:19.020 because they acquire

01:18:19.980 more skills

01:18:20.540 and they meet

01:18:20.900 more connections

01:18:21.500 that's where I met

01:18:22.940 a lot of my connections

01:18:23.700 in prison

01:18:24.120 and the other thing

01:18:26.120 is

01:18:26.420 about policing

01:18:27.620 I think

01:18:28.240 there's a lot of police

01:18:29.920 that I don't trust

01:18:30.540 there's certain police forces

01:18:31.360 that I think are dodgy as hell

01:18:32.600 but as a whole

01:18:34.000 society needs to get behind

01:18:35.780 the police

01:18:36.140 they need to support

01:18:36.960 the police

01:18:37.320 and they need to support

01:18:39.040 and promote

01:18:40.780 stop and search

01:18:41.740 all this bullshit

01:18:43.580 that's saying

01:18:44.040 no no

01:18:44.340 we can't be stopping

01:18:45.040 these kids

01:18:45.460 it'll save lives

01:18:46.940 it'll save the kids life

01:18:47.900 because if they're carrying

01:18:48.480 a gun on a knife

01:18:49.280 they're at an increased risk

01:18:51.480 of them being harmed

01:18:53.240 themselves

01:18:53.680 do you understand

01:18:54.660 what I'm saying

01:18:55.000 so stop and search

01:18:56.240 and effective policing

01:18:58.300 does save lives

01:18:59.500 100%

01:19:00.080 and you know

01:19:01.140 these people

01:19:01.660 that are losing

01:19:02.140 kids left right and centre

01:19:03.140 and losing family members

01:19:04.120 brothers

01:19:04.480 fathers

01:19:05.240 if that individual

01:19:06.760 that perpetrator

01:19:07.420 would have got stopped

01:19:07.980 by the police

01:19:08.480 then

01:19:09.520 maybe

01:19:10.700 the chances are

01:19:11.820 he wouldn't have went on

01:19:12.400 to commit that murder

01:19:13.100 or to commit that

01:19:13.980 assault

01:19:14.820 where people are

01:19:15.660 seriously harmed

01:19:16.340 in hospitals

01:19:18.240 so

01:19:18.560 I think society

01:19:19.800 needs to be more

01:19:20.660 supportive of the police

01:19:22.100 Sikaris

01:19:24.020 it's been an

01:19:24.880 absolutely brilliant interview

01:19:26.120 if people want to

01:19:27.560 understand the work

01:19:29.260 that you do

01:19:29.740 if people want to

01:19:30.740 access the work

01:19:31.680 that you do

01:19:32.080 where's the best way

01:19:32.860 to find that online

01:19:33.800 they can follow me

01:19:35.580 on my twitter account

01:19:36.360 and once the programme

01:19:37.820 is implemented

01:19:38.660 then there'll be

01:19:39.720 all the links

01:19:40.240 I'll be putting on that

01:19:41.500 and I'll also

01:19:41.980 send you the other links

01:19:43.380 to the website

01:19:44.400 to the company

01:19:45.280 that's going to be

01:19:45.840 overseeing the programme

01:19:47.460 and implementing it

01:19:48.680 so you can add that

01:19:49.980 when you upload

01:19:51.300 all the links to it

01:19:52.100 but people can follow

01:19:53.200 my twitter account

01:19:53.900 which is

01:19:54.460 Sikaris McGrath

01:19:55.420 and I'll give you

01:19:56.060 the link to add to it

01:19:57.580 but if there's anyone

01:19:58.240 interested in

01:19:59.000 the contributing

01:19:59.980 to the programme

01:20:00.520 or investing in it

01:20:01.380 then feel free

01:20:02.640 to get in touch with me

01:20:03.360 it's been a wonderful interview

01:20:06.220 thank you so much

01:20:07.260 for coming on

01:20:07.800 and thanks to you

01:20:08.980 for watching

01:20:09.620 all our episodes

01:20:10.860 always go out

01:20:11.780 Wednesdays

01:20:12.500 and Sundays

01:20:13.480 7pm UK time

01:20:15.160 Raw shows

01:20:16.100 Thursday

01:20:16.740 Friday

01:20:17.320 and Saturday

01:20:18.120 and it's also available

01:20:19.880 as a podcast

01:20:20.860 for those of you

01:20:21.560 who like your

01:20:22.100 Trigonometry on the go

01:20:23.120 take care

01:20:24.060 and see you soon guys

01:20:25.420 I was deeply

01:20:28.280 deeply radicalised

01:20:29.200 because if I

01:20:29.660 never got out

01:20:30.860 and went back to gangs

01:20:31.760 then maybe I could have

01:20:32.900 been the next

01:20:33.460 shoe bomber

01:20:34.400 Richard Reid

01:20:34.960 who knows

01:20:35.460 I could have brought

01:20:36.000 a plane down

01:20:37.280 a train down

01:20:37.840 I don't know

01:20:38.720 what perhaps

01:20:40.160 could have happened

01:20:40.640 Broadway's smash hit

01:20:47.680 The Neil Diamond Musical

01:20:48.980 A Beautiful Noise

01:20:50.340 is coming to Toronto

01:20:51.860 the true story

01:20:52.880 of a kid from Brooklyn

01:20:53.940 destined for something more

01:20:55.480 featuring all the songs

01:20:56.620 you love

01:20:57.260 including America

01:20:58.360 Forever in Blue Jeans

01:20:59.700 and Sweet Caroline

01:21:00.880 like Jersey Boys

01:21:02.320 and Beautiful

01:21:02.960 the next musical

01:21:04.120 mega hit is here

01:21:05.260 The Neil Diamond Musical

01:21:06.760 A Beautiful Noise

01:21:08.120 April 28th

01:21:09.180 through June 7th

01:21:10.160 2026

01:21:11.120 The Princess of Wales Theatre

01:21:12.740 Get tickets at

01:21:13.880 Murbish.com

01:21:15.020 andena

01:21:15.540 on Netflix

01:21:17.380 After years

01:21:17.820 on thehigh

01:21:18.720 a2020

01:21:19.260 The Princess of Wales

01:21:21.420 will visit

01:21:22.020 the monsieur

01:21:22.880 who is the people

01:21:26.040 who cares

01:21:38.700 and have been

01:21:39.260 able

TRIGGERnometry - October 27, 2022

＂I Was a Violent Criminal, Now I'm Helping Stop Violent Crime＂

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