TRIGGERnometry - ICE, Immigration and Cultural Suicide - Lionel Shriver

00:00:00.000 this is all the result of individual political decisions the Biden administration opened that

00:00:09.000 border on purpose there is design behind it we are not acting out of self-interest the gender

00:00:15.960 dynamics in the book between who it is that actually is inviting these people and who it

00:00:21.500 is that's resisting this movement has brought out the worst in women I'm a big fan with mess 1.00

00:00:29.960 and I mean that on an individual level but also on a cultural one we have poo-pooed them for a long

00:00:37.600 time our countries are being overrun by strangers because nobody is stopping them 1.00

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00:01:16.160 required term supply getting ready for a game means being ready for anything like packing a spare stick

00:01:26.300 i like to be prepared that's why i remember 988 canada's suicide crisis helpline it's good to know

00:01:32.980 just in case anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder

00:01:38.220 anytime 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in canada

00:01:43.220 driver welcome back to trigonometry third time lucky third time great to have you uh you are the reason we have

00:01:52.020 you on regularly you're a prolific writer as i was saying before we started you've just written the

00:01:55.860 new book called a better life and as always you stay away from the controversy don't you lionel

00:02:00.280 oh yeah i tried to go for the safe subject well this book of course is a novel but it is about

00:02:06.360 immigration and i think you actually go very deep and very hard at an issue that has become

00:02:13.460 completely toxified impossible to talk about and also impossible to be honest about uh is that why you

00:02:19.960 wanted to to talk about this issue well i i am always looking for a gap in the cultural library

00:02:27.780 there's no point in writing a book that has been written multiple times um i i'm trying to look for

00:02:37.220 something that people are not writing about and there's usually a reason people are not writing

00:02:43.540 about something because it's dangerous it's too polarizing um and there have certainly been plenty

00:02:53.700 of novels about immigration but they're always implicitly pro-immigration because they are reliably

00:03:02.740 told from the perspective of the immigrant and um and they're not necessarily all bad novels and in fact

00:03:10.580 uh i think the the format of the immigrant story is um a narratively appealing in in intrinsically you know

00:03:24.580 someone who's seeking a better life right is on a journey is literally going from a to b and therefore

00:03:32.900 perhaps making another kind of spiritual political social journey um and has has to face obstacles to

00:03:43.940 overcome is usually at a disadvantage often often that's an economic disadvantage uh all of these things

00:03:54.020 are a formula for a sympathetic character and when you have a sympathetic immigrant

00:03:58.900 you are you are implicitly writing a pro-immigration book i mean that's just the way it works um insofar as

00:04:07.540 as is you have any political content uh i i i know of only one other novel that portrays the experience of the

00:04:19.540 host community and that would be tc boils uh the tortilla curtain that goes back to 1999

00:04:27.380 and i really can't name another one one one of the interesting things that i think you explore in

00:04:33.700 the book is why this is all happening in the west why there's been these gigantic waves of mass

00:04:40.660 immigration in the last 20 years in particular and it was interesting i was listening to you uh on another

00:04:46.420 podcast with our friend winston and he asked you about the comments that jim rackliff made when he said

00:04:51.940 england's been colonized by immigrants and he said do you think that's true and you said 0.99

00:04:57.780 of course which i thought was surprising actually because i think that the reason i don't agree with what

00:05:03.860 he said even though i understand why he said it is that i think to say something is colonization

00:05:09.380 is to imply that the people who are coming are responsible for it was what your book actually explores

00:05:14.420 is the people who are responsible for the ways of mass immigration the people who are encouraging and

00:05:20.820 making it possible um i i agree with you uh i'm not sure that uh being willing to use the word

00:05:28.340 colonization uh means that that the cause of that colonization is just the force of people's desire

00:05:40.340 certainly that's part of the explanation but it is being permitted right without without doubt

00:05:46.900 encouraged and in fact invited i would yes yes and and you know i was doing an event last night and

00:05:53.700 and somebody said well you know isn't it inevitable it is not inevitable uh and politicians

00:06:02.100 uh of certain stripes have encouraged us to believe that it is is an inevitable and you know this book is set

00:06:11.540 in the united states the u.s has been taught to believe that uh that the transformation the demographic

00:06:20.980 and ethnic racial transformation of the country which has been drastic since 1965 is almost like a natural 1.00

00:06:30.420 process like photosynthesis it's like um the sun shines and the immigrants come you know or you water the 1.00

00:06:38.820 garden and you get flowers and it's it's it's as if nobody's making any decisions that makes such rapid

00:06:49.540 demographic change possible but these are all there are the these are this is all the result of individual

00:06:57.860 political decisions and um and it's the same in the uk you know and they're being let in or as you say

00:07:06.420 actually invited in and the plot of the book deals with an ordinary middle-class family american

00:07:14.020 family who invite this immigrant into their house and then as it progresses it has awfully tragic 0.99

00:07:21.060 consequences as i was reading the book two words kept coming up into my mind which is an idea which

00:07:29.780 started with gad sad former guest of the show which are the two words are suicidal empathy i knew that's

00:07:34.740 what you were going to say and it really struck me is that something that you'd agree with

00:07:40.420 oh sure i mean it's my only problem with that expression is that i think often what you're

00:07:47.220 dealing with is not genuinely empathy it's it's suicidal vanity right it's a it's a conceit about yourself

00:07:59.060 being a good person and you're going to inflict your your goodness on everybody else you know it's

00:08:08.980 sticking it's sticking it's it's sticking up for people who are uh vulnerable um but

00:08:19.060 i often feel with these people that the the the groups of people they are defending

00:08:25.380 they're almost irrelevant because it's an exercise in in moral display absolutely and one of the things

00:08:36.260 that you see when we talk about moral display is how the people should we just say the characters

00:08:41.940 let's call them progressives or hyper liberals whatever whatever term you want to use to describe

00:08:47.060 them is not only do they have this suicidal vanity but they're also quite patronizing as well to these

00:08:55.220 immigrants they treat them as lesser than and they can't really see that yeah i know it's it is conspicuous

00:09:01.860 at any distance that um that the progressive view of minorities is terribly condescending and one of 1.00

00:09:11.940 one of the things that's condescending is the assumption that all these illegal immigrants are

00:09:22.180 are innocent you know and and in the united states uh there's also this conceit that

00:09:29.380 that they're just you know not only are they just seeking a better life which is itself a you know

00:09:38.260 portrayed as a faultless process um but they they admire the united states you know they love america they

00:09:48.660 want to become a part of it they want to make contribution um they just they they they are patriots in

00:09:57.220 waiting and waiting and that's really what's motivating them um this admiration of the country

00:10:03.700 and of the culture and wanting to be part of it and of course at the same time progressives think

00:10:09.860 the country is evil but you know inconsistency never bothers these people um

00:10:16.820 um and and and so there's no there's no giving of credit that this is in many instances in the era of the

00:10:26.900 welfare state a transactional process right the immigrants for the most part knew know your immigration 0.88

00:10:35.060 law better than you do way better so they've done their homework in advance they have the stories prepared

00:10:43.060 for their asylum claims even though that they're overwhelmingly economic migrants um and they they

00:10:51.620 know what benefits they can get and that's that's a lot of it that's part that's a big part of the

00:10:58.100 motivation they're smart right this is smart this is acting out of self-interest what's odd about our

00:11:07.300 immigration policy again i talk in terms of both countries uh is that we are not acting out of

00:11:13.460 self-interest the laws are not in our self-interest and that's a really profound point because there's

00:11:20.020 moments where the police get involved and the what the main characters realize is there's no way of

00:11:26.580 getting these people out of their house and then you suddenly make it very clear in the book that the

00:11:31.540 system is biased against the people that it's meant to in inverted commas protect yes and the british will

00:11:38.340 recognize that right away quite and why you mentioned that you agree with me that this is being invited

00:11:45.940 what do you think is the motivation for all of this or the motivations i'm sure there's more than one

00:11:51.860 i think it's especially mysterious in the uk um though there there may be an intersection there i resisted

00:12:00.020 for a long time this notion that democrats were deliberately inviting masses of uh foreigners into

00:12:07.780 the country uh because they wanted to to grow little democrats and create a one-party state um i've i've

00:12:18.420 started to come around to that view i also i before trump uh effectively closed the southern border

00:12:27.860 i imagined a lot of it was incompetence and fecklessness now there may be an element of that

00:12:34.340 but i think it was more intentional the biden administration opened that border on purpose

00:12:40.740 and shipped people all over the country wherever they wanted to go

00:12:44.580 in fact they put illegal migrants with no id onto commercial airplanes

00:12:53.380 with regular passengers who all have to have you know an impeccable national id i mean it's just it's it

00:13:02.180 there is design behind it and i i don't have any other theory aside from this pathological passion for

00:13:12.660 minorities and a weird uh notion that uh people who are non-white are superior um

00:13:22.820 i i i don't see any other reason for inviting so many people in especially because you know on the

00:13:29.060 one hand the left talks about oh we need these people economically you know we have this aging um age

00:13:34.980 structure and you know social security's um imperiled and and uh medicare costs too much and

00:13:42.420 we need young people to fill out the workforce but then you know they support family reunification 0.99

00:13:51.460 which means these these people can bring in their parents right i mean so much for improving the age

00:13:58.580 structure and furthermore the people that that came in um illegally during the biden administration were

00:14:06.180 largely um unskilled or underskilled poorly educated these people i mean they've done the research these

00:14:16.820 people are going to be uh net usurpers of social resources over the course of their lifetimes so that

00:14:25.460 is definitely not going to fix the public finances so you know you use the economic argument to open the

00:14:33.220 border but then you don't do the economically rational thing which would be to let in high 1.00

00:14:39.540 skilled immigrants who are going to walk into um jobs with uh substantial salaries they'll pay taxes 0.99

00:14:48.820 etc that makes sense but that's not what that's not what we're doing in either country i'm about to

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00:17:11.860 well in britain there is another motivation which is um and we've talked about this a lot which is

00:17:18.900 if you measure economic growth in terms of the total gdp of the country and you're not capable of

00:17:25.460 delivering actual growth as in improvements and productivity the creation of new jobs new businesses

00:17:30.900 then the one thing you can do to avoid if you're the prime minister going out and having to say well

00:17:35.300 actually the economy shrank by 0.3 percent is just to bring more bodies in yeah but that's assuming

00:17:42.420 that if you have an intelligent opposition they're not going to point out the gdp per capita has gone

00:17:49.780 down well i've been pointing this out for a long time but it's only until it's only now that the

00:17:54.820 supposedly intelligent opposition is starting to catch on to this idea but i i think there's another

00:17:59.700 thing that you touch on and this is a very very difficult and controversial thing but i think the gender

00:18:04.260 dynamics in the book you that you explore between who it is that actually is inviting these people

00:18:10.740 and who it is that's resisting is interesting because it's men and women or women and men i i think

00:18:18.180 that's very accurate you know that's it's it's um i mean the women in the book i i tried not to make

00:18:27.380 uh caricatures uh and i honestly in comparison to the the lunatics i see uh trying to interfere with

00:18:38.420 ice operations in the likes of minneapolis uh the mother in my book is really quite sedate and reasonable 0.98

00:18:46.420 and rational and and calm right she's she's not screaming at the top of her lungs or something so

00:18:53.460 um and so i i think i'm fair to her i think she it's a it's a realistic portrait and she believes in

00:19:03.620 her own stick you know uh we can step outside her and see that moral vanity but i i don't think most of 1.00

00:19:17.140 these people are aware of it it feels like passionate concern for others that's that's the experience

00:19:26.100 and so i give her credit and the two other women um to slightly lesser extent but they they all 0.98

00:19:35.860 they all they all buy themselves the ui they all um they all sincerely embrace their their beliefs

00:19:51.220 and can't see can't see their own vanity and can't see for example their own condescension

00:20:00.020 and it's quite interesting because as well as talking about the women you don't spare the men

00:20:05.700 particularly the protagonist the main character nico the young man i mean it's a pretty devastating

00:20:11.860 analysis of young men that you do in the book uh the entire book is seen through the eyes of nico who is

00:20:21.700 26 when the book starts he has earned a degree in engineering from a decent university

00:20:29.700 but had an epiphany uh shortly before he graduated that he doesn't want to be an engineer and he

00:20:39.380 doesn't want to be anything else either he just doesn't want to be a grown-up there's nothing in it

00:20:48.660 that attracts him uh this is very different from how i felt at that age uh there's always something

00:20:57.060 intimidating about your 20s you're supposed to be an adult and you don't really feel like one

00:21:04.500 um and you're making decisions that are probably going to influence the rest of your life and you

00:21:09.380 don't know which they are and i can see just deciding not for me right um the idea of just not having any

00:21:25.060 ambition at all is weirdly attractive it's restful you can't fail right no pressure no pressure whatsoever

00:21:37.060 it's you know your life is calm um nico is uh has so little to do with other people that he has

00:21:46.500 deleted the calendar app on his phone and um i when i was writing this character i came to see his point

00:21:56.820 of view that uh being an adult is hard assuming responsibility especially for your own life can feel

00:22:06.820 onerous um and as long as you can get away with it uh i can see just resigning from adulthood right

00:22:20.180 and this is typical of a certain kind of young person now and i think we've gone through a couple

00:22:28.260 of generations where a percentage and i think it's especially been a problem with men a percentage of

00:22:36.660 that their generation has um tried to hide under the bed but one of the things that your book explores

00:22:46.340 very intelligently is incentives yes the women of the family behave the way they do because of 1.00

00:22:53.460 incentives social incentives you know being seen to be a good person the migrants behave in their

00:23:00.180 own way because of incentives because they know that if they come to the us they're going to have

00:23:03.940 a better quality of life far better than when they came from before and there will be opportunities 1.00

00:23:09.380 for them to have a much better quality of life but nico is also responding to incentives

00:23:15.700 being an adult is hard it's tough you have responsibility you have unpleasant days at work

00:23:20.980 you're getting involved in a relationship it might not work you get involved in a career

00:23:24.980 you might get fired you get knocked back you get rejected so in a way isn't every character

00:23:32.500 just responding to the perverse incentives of our society um yes there's a an exchange in the book

00:23:41.460 between nico and an old friend of his that he hasn't seen in a long time and his friend is that is

00:23:49.780 he's the he's the grown-up he's the the alternative he he has a job he has a career he's going to get

00:23:58.020 married he wants children wow where'd you come from um and his friends says you know nico

00:24:08.900 i don't know you were um you were really popular in high school

00:24:16.420 how have you why have you stalled why are you what happened is it basically he stalled because i can

00:24:29.060 because i can as you were saying been enabled his mother's not going to kick him out of the house

00:24:36.020 he has a little inheritance from his grandfather and there's a way in which that's that is all the

00:24:43.620 the book is full of metaphors but that even that little inheritance from his his grandfather

00:24:50.020 is metaphorical like the too many young people are spending their inheritance and not contributing to 0.98

00:25:01.700 what would they would pass on even this refusal to have children is a is a spending of your inheritance

00:25:09.140 without amassing another fortune to pass on a kind of a genetic fortune a social fortune an economic

00:25:16.420 fortune even um there is a widespread i don't want to i know these are generalizations i don't want to

00:25:24.740 trash young people everyone's not like this but there there is a proportion of of young people who 1.00

00:25:35.220 who just who are doing what nico is doing writ large not not embracing a future and there's the whole 0.91

00:25:45.140 way of thinking behind that i'm very convenient i mean i think this whole thing of um climate change

00:25:51.780 is a big fat excuse right oh there is no future we're all going to die well yeah that's right we

00:25:59.300 are all going to die um and if you keep thinking that like that uh there will be no future that's a

00:26:06.900 very self-fulfilling you know if you don't have if nobody has kids that's that's it and most of all

00:26:13.860 there is a the rejection of the western heritage um that's convenient too if you reject it you don't 0.85

00:26:21.300 have to learn it you don't have to appreciate it you don't have to read any of those long books um

00:26:27.940 uh you you just say it's all evil you don't have to learn anything about history if you decide

00:26:34.500 all history is bad you make it very simple you know you you reduce it to americans reduce it to

00:26:40.100 slavery and the slaughter of the indians that's all you need to know about history oh and you need to 1.00

00:26:45.620 know a little bit of world war ii so you can call the enemy nazis and fascists that's about it and

00:26:53.460 it's it seems as if the the the left in in both our countries is is utopian but they're not utopian

00:27:03.460 they are dystopian in fact they are nihilistic i don't think there is any positive vision for the future

00:27:10.660 that's just a complete blank no future that's nihilistic and it's easy you know it's staying

00:27:20.900 home it's not building anything it's not making anything and it's not appreciating anything it's not

00:27:28.420 it's not humbly accepting that many people have come before you that make your smartphone possible and

00:27:35.380 your your your sewage and your supermarket full of infinite array of food i mean it's it it's an

00:27:45.460 ungrateful position and that's all that's that's easy too because great gratitude requires humility

00:27:55.300 it's it's not something that that makes you vain right it is it is and gratitude requires some

00:28:06.100 some energy uh uh generosity and and i think this whole the whole progressive left which i talked

00:28:16.180 to a little bit um with winston um is just incredibly narcissistic and i find that ironic because they

00:28:26.180 this is in the guise of caring so much for others i was going to say as well because

00:28:31.060 focusing on the men in the book particularly nico his constant search for comfort has meant that he

00:28:40.020 has become demasculinized when you compare him to the immigrants coming in who've had a much harder

00:28:45.540 tougher way of life they're far more masculine than he is yes they're far more assertive they're far more

00:28:52.100 not only are they mentally they're mentally dominant they're far more physically dominant

00:28:56.580 so what you show is this comparison between somebody who's been raised in the west and you look at

00:29:02.580 him you go this isn't a man this is a glorified pet i thought you're going to say girl no i like pet

00:29:09.700 better yeah it's a glorified pet no because it's an insult to women to say that because that's 1.00

00:29:14.740 it's it's not it's not feminine it's something deeply pathetic that can only be maintained 0.94

00:29:20.180 if someone looks after them that's not a woman that's a pet yeah well 1.00

00:29:23.300 for the first long part of the book nico seems to be very uh contented with this uh demasculi demasculinized

00:29:38.580 version of himself and many of his peers but there is a crucial point at which

00:29:46.740 he realizes that he needs access to the masculine virtues

00:29:53.300 uh even physically he needs strength he needs to be able to express aggression

00:30:00.340 um and he needs to most of all he needs to be able to protect his mother who is in

00:30:07.220 profound danger and he doesn't know how he feels he has no no tools uh in a literal sense and also

00:30:18.100 in a characterological sense uh he can't he can't rise to the occasion i of course don't want to give

00:30:29.780 away the ending but in his own small struggling way he does start to embrace being a man toward the end of

00:30:41.860 the book doesn't come naturally he doesn't really want to but you know it's it you can see that

00:30:52.660 somewhere out there waits his salvation and

00:30:58.100 you know i'm i'm a big fan with masculine virtues and i and i mean that on an individual level but also

00:31:04.900 on a cultural one and especially on a cultural one uh we have we have poo-pooed them for a long time and

00:31:18.980 and and so i think in my own small way i'm defending a more um a more traditional manhood

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00:33:56.100 on that subject i mean the reason i brought up the men and women dynamic in all this i think that that

00:34:01.220 comes across quite clearly and it reminded me of a conversation we had with a lady called helen

00:34:06.980 andrews when we were last in america i don't know if you caught that episode but her thesis essentially

00:34:12.740 is that a lot of people say that the woke moment is a product of ideology and her argument is not so

00:34:18.900 much ideology it's what happens when you have women becoming dominant in institutions and imposing 1.00

00:34:28.340 their values and their mindset onto those institutions so for example the idea that you

00:34:34.340 talked about at length already in this interview about well the immigrants or the minorities they

00:34:39.300 can't put it for wrong because they're they just need protection and looking after her argument is well

00:34:44.580 if you kind of see vulnerable people effectively as babies then that is how you're likely to add

00:34:50.500 towards them is that is there any truth on this do you do does that make any sense to you

00:34:55.460 yeah definitely i mean i'm afraid that in discussing the male female uh dynamic in in relation to to woke

00:35:03.220 world um i i don't speak very warmly about my own sex um this movement has brought out the worst in women 1.00

00:35:13.860 and you know women women are capable of the masculine virtues also and we have allowed them to run riot 1.00

00:35:26.580 uh feeding their worst impulses some of the some of their those impulses are masculine they're just

00:35:34.500 disguised because that that crowd can be extremely aggressive and violent and vicious right and um

00:35:48.980 it's true that it's a the traditional cancel culture uh has has has had a caddy female side you know that 0.70

00:35:59.300 um assassination of of character and assassination of career uh that's that's pretty female um 1.00

00:36:11.700 but you know even physically a lot of these people in um in protests and stuff

00:36:16.980 they're frightening right um and and i i i feel that a lot of the emotions that that dominate the

00:36:31.220 the progressive left are not just girly emotions you know fury um

00:36:39.860 uh and a a a a malign intent you know an intent toward destruction and harm it's very very negative

00:36:54.420 well i think there's also another thing that maybe you could say does code more masculine which is a lot

00:36:59.620 of it from what i see is um you know you talk about the character the male character in your book who's

00:37:06.900 sort of pacified and contented and also for the women as well but ultimately within every human being

00:37:14.580 there is the desire for a cause to to to be contributing something of value to to stand up for

00:37:21.700 what is right all of these things still exist and also the desire to have status that corresponds with

00:37:27.060 that i know i think a lot of progressives look to the previous generation of people who fought for

00:37:32.660 certain rights and absent any other meaning in their life that is what they're trying to emulate so when

00:37:38.100 you go and get shot by an ice agent while quote unquote defending immigrants not quite in my opinion 0.99

00:37:45.220 what they're doing there is an attempt at some to seek greatness as part of that is what i see as well

00:37:51.380 there is a a huge sense there that you are doing something important and willing through your own 0.99

00:37:57.060 stupidity to put your life on the line and frankly also objectively speaking to go down in history 1.00

00:38:04.340 right because you know millions of billions of people around the world are going to know your name 1.00

00:38:08.740 i think it's a little tricky uh to to unravel when you're when you're um you're pursuing your own

00:38:23.300 causes leaving the left aside um and i'm talking about us not not the others humans um i mean i have

00:38:32.260 lots of beliefs also they're not the same beliefs uh but and you know i i wrote this novel partly out of

00:38:41.060 my own beliefs about immigration that it's been excessive and often damaging to the to western culture 0.99

00:38:50.340 in particular uh you know we'd like to see it slow so i i have strong feelings about this issue

00:38:58.340 and maybe you know maybe there is also a vanity in my thinking you know the the vast majority out there

00:39:07.380 needs somebody to speak for them that's what i'm trying to do and maybe you could step outside of me

00:39:14.100 and say well you're just actually self this is just an act of self-promotion right this is this is

00:39:21.060 narcissistic this is your books are narcissistic this is just this is a kind of moral display in other

00:39:27.300 words it's possible to turn all that stuff on yourself you know and and i and and therefore

00:39:33.700 i think it's important even when disagreeing with the progressive left to at least give them credit

00:39:40.660 that i think they do they do believe that they believe what they say but there is a huge difference

00:39:47.220 between these two things lionel and i think this is comes down to uh creativity versus destruction

00:39:53.300 right what you've done is you've written a great book now people might read that book and say i

00:39:58.020 disagree with the views that are implied by the plot and the storylines here but they won't deny

00:40:03.860 that it's a well-written book if they've got any sense to them creating a good book is a hard thing

00:40:08.980 to do it takes skill it takes practice it takes the willingness to have people write negative things

00:40:14.500 about you and deal with that emotionally that none of those things are easy

00:40:17.300 going to a protest and putting yourself in harm's way it may in some ways you could argue is courageous

00:40:24.820 but it's not hard it takes no skill it takes no intelligence it takes no creativity and i think

00:40:30.500 that's the difference i think the the difference and you talked about nihilism the difference is that

00:40:36.020 this is an easy way to access status it's an easy way it's a way of getting the things that take work

00:40:42.660 without putting any work in because if you really care about immigrants there's ways to contribute 1.00

00:40:47.620 you could go and start some kind of uh non-profit organization that teaches them english or that

00:40:52.660 teaches them job skills or that allows them to do this xyz all of that is creative and i think most

00:40:59.060 people would respect that right if people already hear they don't speak english you'd want to teach

00:41:02.900 them english you could do that but if you go to a protest you don't have to do any work you just

00:41:07.540 turn up and start screaming in someone's face i also think there was an element of um assumed imperviousness

00:41:16.180 in these anti-ice protests uh i do not think that either of the people who got shot in minneapolis

00:41:25.300 believed that they were genuinely putting their lives in danger their middle class and imagined that

00:41:32.900 um no harm would befall them it's a kind of entitlement that you know um so in that all of this is the

00:41:46.260 performance it feels like theater and they didn't actually believe that uh trying to stop armed law

00:41:55.780 enforcement from doing their job was was potentially putting themselves in harm's way i i i just don't

00:42:07.060 think that was the world in which they were mentally living um i mean i didn't i i was not convinced that

00:42:16.900 either of those shootings was righteous uh i think it showed poor judgment on isis part um

00:42:26.580 but at this at the same time they did make it it it was a joint effort right there there were um

00:42:36.980 misjudgments on both sides how much of this and the ideology people's behaviors

00:42:45.940 everything really is down to the fact we're simply not having enough kids i don't think it was an accident

00:42:50.980 in your book not an accident the three of the characters they didn't have any kids the mom was

00:42:57.940 in a house a big house on her own that maternal in those maternal instincts have to go somewhere 0.96

00:43:04.420 arguably this wouldn't have happened if the two daughters had all had kids and nico had a kid

00:43:09.700 because mom would be so busy with grandkids and babies and ferrying them to hockey practice or 1.00

00:43:15.940 whatever it may be i don't know wouldn't have time for any of this stuff um yes i mean the martin the

00:43:22.660 the immigrant who's invited into the house the first one um she she makes that point very uh specifically

00:43:31.860 that it looks as if this whole family is going to disappear right none of them have had kids

00:43:40.580 and and therefore there will be no one left in the house nico's nico who doesn't take any of this stuff

00:43:49.140 very seriously um said yeah okay well let me have the house for 70 years and i'll leave you the keys

00:43:57.780 and it's but but you know that's that's also that's the country the house is the country

00:44:03.140 and if we don't have children then we're handing the keys to somebody else if you watch or listen to

00:44:09.860 trigonometry regularly this won't surprise you the cost of everyday life has crept up to the point

00:44:15.060 where even sensible people are feeling the squeeze you do the right things you work you budget and

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00:44:25.380 everything costs more and more people than you think are quietly filling the gap with credit cards

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00:45:23.860 and i think not enough people realize that because again our civilization at this moment seems to be

00:45:32.260 built around comfort i don't want anything that will make me uncomfortable i don't want to test

00:45:38.020 myself because then i might feel anxious i might feel stressed so what i'm going to do again using

00:45:44.500 the analogy of a pet i want to be looked after but the reality is that has very real trade-offs

00:45:50.500 particularly when it comes to kids and families if you don't have kids then what happens is

00:45:57.540 you don't have a legacy that's right and by the way i i need to clarify i have not had children 0.90

00:46:05.380 so i'm a i'm a hypocrite um i i had my um in fact i'm the only non-hypocrite at the table

00:46:14.820 good for you good for me i um i came around to my um pro natalism late in my life and it in all

00:46:27.460 honesty i still don't feel specifically regretful on my own account my life worked out pretty much

00:46:34.660 the way i wanted um there is some parallel universe in my mind in which i had children

00:46:43.460 and and i think in in a lot of ways the latter part of my life would be much more interesting

00:46:50.020 if i'd had children and that's where it really gets me um because there'd be so much more plot

00:46:56.980 and i like plot unlike most literary like writers i like plot and um i i follow what happens to my

00:47:05.780 nieces and nephews my um my younger brother has four kids and uh with with real eagerness you know

00:47:14.260 as if i'm i'm getting back to a novel that i'm in the middle of not and but one that someone else is

00:47:20.260 writing and uh it's just more story and some some of this not all the story is good but it's uh it's

00:47:30.020 this stuff you know it's more life and um and i'm that aspect of my brother's life i'm actually you know

00:47:39.860 envious of so my life is now too simple and people keep dying and if my husband dies i will be very by

00:47:54.020 myself you know if there's i have some friends uh and i still have my brother but the family's getting

00:48:02.900 littler on my side and and it's it's kind of shocking

00:48:09.860 you know when when you realize your friends start dying i've lost any number of friends already

00:48:16.740 uh i did not grow a crop of

00:48:23.700 social connections deep social connections meaning familial connections and uh and there's a price to

00:48:32.420 to pay for that and that's something that i don't think we acknowledge in our society

00:48:37.780 by seeking comfort by avoiding what's important by things like career becoming an adult testing

00:48:45.140 yourself what you are not doing is you're not investing in your future that's right and you're

00:48:51.620 not investing in everyone else's future you're not investing in a future that you will not experience

00:48:56.900 that having children is an act of generosity in every sense and i i one of the things that's changed

00:49:03.140 i i never you know was disapproving of people who had children but i it's i'm now actively approving

00:49:12.100 of people have children i admire people who have children those who say oh climate change i'm not

00:49:18.500 going to have any i i think it's uh i think it's a lie i think it's a cop-out and i it's just it's getting

00:49:26.820 out of it because it's too much trouble it is trouble but it's trouble that's worthwhile and if

00:49:36.340 you don't if we don't have kids as shown in the book you invite a different sort of trouble yes you're

00:49:42.340 never going to escape from trouble life is trouble so wouldn't it be better to have trouble that has

00:49:50.900 meaning instead of doing what the characters do in this book and look for meaning in places where

00:49:56.100 there really is no meaning yeah it's really like returning to basics um it's what people have always

00:50:04.820 found meaning in always is having children having a family that's where your your deepest bonds are

00:50:13.940 and your biggest problems um and and we need to we have we need to become a more old-fashioned well

00:50:25.540 i i think it francis is totally right to hone in on the idea of comfort because i think what having

00:50:30.900 children does it it's i think maybe i spend too much time in my in my youth playing computer games but

00:50:35.860 i think of a lot of things as a video game and having kids is is is literally going to the next level

00:50:42.980 you up the difficulty level you up the reward level and if what you want is to be comfortable

00:50:49.140 as nico in the book does or if you want to just stay you know you kind of got you know you you're

00:50:54.020 content like content is the right word you put it very well why increase your difficulty level

00:51:00.100 why do it if you're not aspiring to a bigger reward for example of any kind whether that's

00:51:05.380 meaningfulness or anything else why push yourself and i think that's just seeped so much into the

00:51:12.500 culture now um but it's interesting because i think the question i was going to ask you is

00:51:18.180 do you think you know your book is one aspect of this but there's a bigger thing going on where

00:51:23.380 actually a lot of people are starting to realize that this just isn't sustainable

00:51:27.540 the immigration thing isn't sustainable the birth rates aren't sustainable i mean i saw mark 0.99

00:51:32.580 a ruby in munich and he was talking about security global security but he talked about mass

00:51:38.100 immigration as part of that and you just go people are starting to get it now the tide is starting to

00:51:43.380 turn obviously the example of what's happened in the us where you've actually closed the border i mean

00:51:48.660 you have right um do you think this is about to turn around the immigration situation yeah

00:51:56.500 uh i think on the ground it turned around a long time ago uh and that's why there is so much popular

00:52:06.740 rage on this point um in the uk the electorate has opted to uh elect uh government after government

00:52:19.700 which has promised them beforehand that they're going to bring down uh immigration to the tens of

00:52:26.340 thousands um and people are furious indeed furious they've been ignored and lied to lie to totally

00:52:41.620 now even you know i think brexit wasn't was a a vote of desperation i supported it for sovereignty

00:52:52.340 reasons as well as you know to get a handle on on immigration but it was like

00:53:01.460 there was so much anger on the immigration front that they would that the country the country voted

00:53:10.260 to do something drastic right and were willing to take a kind of risk that i thought was very un-british

00:53:17.460 um you know the british have have always been uh uh a slow to anger uh population and um very orderly

00:53:27.540 oriented towards the status quo and not into radical change so that's one reason that vote really is

00:53:34.340 astonished me because it was it was outside the popular character but it was it it was it was it was

00:53:43.780 very specifically to do with immigration and none of the other votes had helped so let's try this

00:53:50.820 and it's one of the fascinating things when you talk about immigration or you talk about different

00:53:56.660 cultures and as people my mother's from a different culture constance from russia what people in the

00:54:03.300 west don't seem to realize and we talk about this a lot and we talk about it between ourselves is

00:54:07.460 they think everyone thinks like them the reality is they don't people in afghanistan do not think 1.00

00:54:14.180 the same way as people living in a flat in mayfair and by the way there's another thing you and i've

00:54:20.260 talked about this a lot on the show there's another thing i just realized that we should add on top of

00:54:23.460 that western people if they lived in the circumstances that people live in afghanistan in

00:54:29.540 also wouldn't act like western people act today living in a flat in mayfair that's that's another

00:54:35.780 aspect of it which is when you're confronted by real hardship for example your mentality has to

00:54:41.140 change and either changes because you want to survive or it changes because you die right so all

00:54:45.860 the people that are refused to adapt they die off and then what you're left with is the people who

00:54:49.860 actually know how to survive in a difficult environment and therefore they're much more connected to the

00:54:54.100 reality of the world you know completely and that's what the characters in the book they think

00:55:00.580 everybody thinks this to put it bluntly they've got every the whole world thinks in these demented

00:55:06.180 progressive values yeah they don't nice neutral statement there's one character in the book i

00:55:14.580 especially like it's he's a side character his name is alonzo you remember him and uh alonzo uh

00:55:24.660 thinks that the most americans are incredibly gullible and and don't give immigrants credit for

00:55:35.780 for being conniving right for knowing how to game the system both the immigration system and the benefit

00:55:42.580 system and he's very good at it he's he's a an excellent and very clever shyster and proud of it um and 0.96

00:55:53.060 and he thinks that that americans are fools and he says you know you think that we we admire you and 0.99

00:56:01.940 and we're grateful that that you let us into your country but no i'm we think you're fools we have 0.99

00:56:07.860 contempt for you and uh he says if uh if i had a country if it's my country right i have a country 0.99

00:56:17.620 and and someone crosses my border without my permission i'd shoot him 0.96

00:56:22.980 and then his friends will think twice about crossing my border without permission

00:56:32.580 end of migration crisis no and i and that's and that is how people in the rest of the world think

00:56:40.980 by the way yes that is how they think yes and and and in fact the kind of uh numbers that we've been

00:56:48.260 confronting like during the biden administration and even um like a thousand people in a day rocking

00:56:56.180 up on the on the southern coast of england at any other time you know that would be a military incursion

00:57:07.060 and that would be met with a military force that would be regarded flat out as an invasion but that

00:57:14.100 of course is one of the words that we cannot use anymore or so we're told let's be honest when your

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00:58:27.700 may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride you know it's so funny

00:58:35.060 the the entire conversation we're having i just had a flashback when i was in my early 20s i was

00:58:41.620 living in a flat share with a girl uh and one day her dad came around and i remember him talking to

00:58:49.700 me and he was telling me the story about the fact that there was a we were talking about immigration i i

00:58:55.620 you know and he told me the story about how he used to work with this afghan guy i think he was from

00:59:02.020 afghanistan somewhere like that uh who used to say to him directly he used to say you brit you know you

00:59:07.620 british you're gullible you're easy to take advantage of and he said the the father of the

00:59:14.500 girl i was living with he said and i said to him well if you feel that way then you know if you if you

00:59:18.500 don't if you if that's how you treat us you should leave and his daughter said dad dad let's not talk

00:59:24.900 like that here and i think that's the entire thing in that one conversation this is how i think the dad and

00:59:32.660 i i remember saying to her i agree with your dad i'm an immigrant i agree with your dad because he's

00:59:37.220 right because a lot of people if you let them they will take advantage of you and you have to not let

00:59:41.460 them take advantage of you and if people are here who are taking advantage of you they should go home

00:59:46.660 and she was horrified by what her dad said and by the fact that i agreed with her dad and this that's

00:59:52.900 the entire conversation isn't it well i mean if you think about it imagine how all those uh boat people 1.00

01:00:04.100 in being put up in hotels all over britain what what do they really think what do they really think

01:00:12.100 about this about this country um

01:00:14.740 um why on earth are british taxpayers putting these people up and giving them three meals a day

01:00:25.220 actually in in most circumstances they have snacks and food on offer 24 7. um they've done nothing to

01:00:34.500 deserve this it's actually a kind of theft right it's a theft from the taxpayer they've they have not

01:00:43.140 contributed anything to the system there is no reason that britain has responsibility for these people 0.98

01:00:49.780 so if you're one of those people don't you feel that these that you're surrounded by fools 0.74

01:00:57.780 i mean what why why are these people rewarding your having broken the law and arrived and you just 0.87

01:01:07.540 arrive and and they're taking care of you indefinitely why would why would you not hold these people in 0.69

01:01:15.540 contempt what is wrong with them it would never happen where you're from you know if if the the if british

01:01:24.260 show up on in in in in afghanistan or albania or so you think that they they're going to be taken

01:01:30.820 care of and put in hotels no so why wouldn't that engender contempt rather than kind of gormless gratitude

01:01:42.260 you know i watch quite a lot of sports and sometimes you see a really great team or with

01:01:49.380 really talented players lose against another team with less talented players and in a moment of honesty

01:01:55.140 they'll ask one of the players and they'll go why did you lose and they'll go you know what

01:02:00.100 they just wanted it more and i look at the characters in your book i look at what's happening

01:02:07.700 in society writ large i look at these people coming over i see the way that they behave and i think

01:02:14.820 maybe they just want it more than us yeah there there's an element of that and and i think that's

01:02:21.620 pretty clear in in the novel that the the people who are taking action for the most part in in the book

01:02:32.180 are the immigrants they're going out and getting what they want and and

01:02:37.700 and and and the and the the locals are passive and you know nobody's

01:02:48.820 our our countries are being overrun by strangers because nobody is stopping them 1.00

01:02:54.820 so one of the things we don't want enough is to stop them

01:03:02.100 so it's just happening and you know when you were talking about the illegal boat

01:03:09.780 immigrants in a hotel um and the way you were talking about it i felt this pang of like

01:03:15.940 but what and and i real and i think what was the pang you know what it was i think it was almost like

01:03:24.100 isn't that exactly what the people who didn't let those fleeing the holocaust and world war ii

01:03:29.060 would have said and that is what they said and they didn't let lots of people into their countries

01:03:32.900 and lots of people died as a result and i think the guilt that we feel about that

01:03:39.300 still even now is so profound that it has deranged the way we think about this issue completely

01:03:44.500 yeah well that's where the uh european convention on human rights comes from that's why the we have

01:03:50.340 the whole asylum system but it's been long enough that maybe we should get over it and update well

01:03:57.460 what i think is is actually i not not even update i just think we have to be honest and recognize that

01:04:05.620 if people are fleeing the holocaust we actually do want to let them in and look after them but if 0.97

01:04:11.780 people are economic migrants who've worked out that if you claim that you are gay or whatever

01:04:17.540 and you're fleeing afghanistan we're going to let you in all of a sudden it's all like that thing with

01:04:23.700 you know we had i mean what was happening in syria during the civil war meant that there were

01:04:28.660 hundreds of thousands of people actually fleeing for their genuine refugees but but if you come to our

01:04:35.700 country and claim you're 12 years old and go to school when you're 24 and we don't even bother to

01:04:41.380 check so the point is that the guilt and shame we felt i actually think was somewhat appropriate

01:04:49.140 it's just it's now been misallocated you know if i you know if i uh if i was driving in in a careless

01:04:57.620 way and i hurt somebody i should feel guilt about that but if that the result of that is i now decide to

01:05:04.180 burn down all the cars in the country maybe that's another reaction and it sort of feels like that's

01:05:08.980 what's happened here well i think the big mistake uh in the asylum system is making it legally uh

01:05:17.540 required so that all is all that it is necessary is that uh someone from wherever sets a single foot

01:05:26.180 on your territory and suddenly you're responsible for them right and they and they can make claims on

01:05:31.140 your benefit system and they can also make claims on your judicial system which is not free either

01:05:36.740 uh and that whole system has got to go i would can all of asylum but as you know that doesn't mean

01:05:44.020 that voluntarily countries couldn't say you know here's this conflict over the over there let's say

01:05:50.340 ukraine right um russia's invaded new ukraine there are a lot of people in danger especially in the east of

01:05:59.060 the country we will take our share we will invite them voluntarily that's what we do right uh but not

01:06:08.420 because we have to because we've inverted it so it's it's required charity and and therefore it's it's

01:06:19.220 it's an open invitation to game the system and it's now a farce isn't now it's now an embarrassment

01:06:26.500 but also as well there's another part to this argument is look we've spent the last however

01:06:32.420 many years in universities in the media in conversations denigrating the rest we're racist

01:06:41.700 we're evil we're not we all know the tribes and if that's the case if we are genuinely those things

01:06:48.980 and our civilization is that then why would you defend it why would you defend your uncle if your

01:06:56.100 uncle is a is a nazi or he's a sex offender you wouldn't you'd go enough about the raw family

01:07:02.740 but yeah but why would you you wouldn't you would just go this person doesn't deserve to be defended

01:07:08.980 well and our culture is the same yes and and this uh this incursion this mass incursion on western

01:07:17.220 territory uh is a is evidence of a lack of cultural self-confidence because why would you want to to

01:07:29.220 protect your culture from from and from people incursion by others you don't if you don't if you

01:07:38.180 don't care about it you're not going to try to protect it and and we're raising we're raising people

01:07:45.940 to not care about it i mean it it's not it's it's you don't even have to go so far as to 0.96

01:07:51.620 to hate your own country but if you just you can passively not give a shit about it 0.81

01:07:58.660 that'll do it yeah that'll do it lionel fantastic to have you back on uh congratulations on a better 0.86

01:08:04.820 life i hope it does very well which i'm sure it will do um thanks for coming back on we're going to

01:08:08.820 ask you a bunch of questions from our supporters uh on substack in a second but before we do what is the

01:08:14.340 one thing that we're still not talking about that we should be

01:08:26.740 water

01:08:29.380 we don't talk enough about water tell me more well it's this is especially in the u.s

01:08:36.900 right now uh the u.s always acts as if we can increase our pop this is it's related to immigration

01:08:43.540 because it's demography we don't uh we think that we can absorb an infinite number of people

01:08:49.540 and keep growing the population indefinitely there was even a a book published not that long ago about

01:08:56.180 one billion americans and it was a it was it was that was supposed to be a positive vision the biggest

01:09:03.460 limitation on whole sections of of the united states is is is groundwater is fresh water

01:09:12.740 water it's um and uh we're sucking out the aquifers and that's uh and nobody talks about it

01:09:23.620 lionel so well i look forward to reading your next book which no doubt will be about water

01:09:28.580 nope

01:09:32.820 thanks for coming on head on over to triggerpod.co.uk where lionel can answer your questions

01:09:40.020 if you were a young person currently seeing what you're seeing and you had the opportunity to move

01:09:44.500 and settle down in some other country what would be your top picks of the same countries in the world

01:09:57.060 broadway's smash hit the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise is coming to toronto the true

01:10:10.500 story of a kid from brooklyn destined for something more featuring all the songs you love including

01:10:15.780 america forever in blue jeans and sweet caroline like jersey boys and beautiful the next musical mega hit is

01:10:22.900 here the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise now through june 7th 2026 at the princess of wells

01:10:29.700 this theater get tickets at murbush.com

TRIGGERnometry - March 01, 2026

ICE, Immigration and Cultural Suicide - Lionel Shriver

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