TRIGGERnometry - India Willoughby on Being Trans, Trans Athletes and Women's Spaces

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00:00:19.900 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:22.580 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:23.800 I'm Constantine Kissinger.

00:00:25.060 And this is a show for you.

00:00:26.520 If you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects,

00:00:29.840 they know nothing about.

00:00:31.640 At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts.

00:00:34.520 We ask the experts.

00:00:36.160 Our fantastic guest this week is a broadcaster

00:00:38.720 and stealth-styled goddess, India Willoughby.

00:00:41.520 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:42.440 Hello, guys.

00:00:43.720 Thank you so much for inviting me.

00:00:46.440 Oh, thank you very much for being here.

00:00:47.980 It's an absolute pleasure.

00:00:49.540 We're stoked, to be honest with you.

00:00:50.700 Thank you, Francis.

00:00:51.640 Thank you, Constantine.

00:00:52.580 Thanks for being here.

00:00:53.880 Listen, for anyone who doesn't know you,

00:00:55.400 we obviously know everything about you.

00:00:56.760 That's why we're grateful that you're here.

00:00:59.160 Tell people, who are you?

00:01:00.620 What's been your journey through life?

00:01:02.180 How have you come to be sitting in the chair that you're sitting in today?

00:01:05.380 Well, I'm a newsreader, but my claim to fame is that I transitioned.

00:01:09.880 So I ended up becoming the world's first transgender newsreader.

00:01:15.820 That was for Channel 5 News, which I did for a year.

00:01:19.060 I did Celebrate Your Big Brother.

00:01:21.480 And now I go on all of the talk shows, such as Loose Women,

00:01:26.280 Good Morning Britain with Piers and Susanna and any other show that will have me, really.

00:01:32.660 And I talk about anything, though it seems to be predominantly trans stuff.

00:01:36.620 That's the topic that keeps coming up because that's the box that I live in.

00:01:41.700 Yeah.

00:01:42.040 Well, we've put you right in that box because that's what we want to talk about.

00:01:45.580 But, you know, honestly speaking, it's obviously a big issue right now.

00:01:49.340 It's an issue everyone's talking about.

00:01:50.680 It's such a hot topic.

00:01:51.880 Yeah.

00:01:52.200 Forget about Brexit.

00:01:53.240 it it's all about sex it this is the big topic well the country is transitioning if you think

00:02:01.520 about it it's going through a transitional period exactly exactly but it has become a big a big

00:02:07.760 issue and and a lot of people will say it's something that affects a small small group of

00:02:11.800 people but there are some repercussions for you know people talk about women's spaces and all

00:02:16.840 that stuff we'll get into the reason that you're our first guest to talk about this and we've been

00:02:21.080 going for a year or almost a year now and we've tried to stay away from it because it's it's

00:02:26.420 complicated it's because you're scared yeah yeah that's that's what the youtube comments are gonna

00:02:30.860 be you're scared yeah but no it's russian upbringing yeah can i just say say ask me

00:02:36.940 absolutely that's what we're gonna yeah that's what we're gonna do don't tip me to a round

00:02:40.640 language either just ask me whatever you but but it's it's a point that you're making about being

00:02:45.240 scared because i'm scared in the way that i'm terrified i'm gonna say the wrong thing

00:02:50.520 you probably are

00:02:51.920 yeah yeah

00:02:52.400 with your voice

00:02:53.180 yeah yeah

00:02:53.700 and then this accent

00:02:54.720 everything sounds prejudiced

00:02:56.220 but

00:02:56.500 it is

00:02:57.860 you just feared that

00:02:59.240 you know

00:02:59.560 because you know

00:03:00.240 when you were brought up

00:03:01.340 you were told

00:03:02.080 there were two genders

00:03:02.940 there were male

00:03:03.480 and there were female

00:03:04.180 and that's how it was

00:03:05.200 boys had this

00:03:06.240 women had this

00:03:07.140 and then you know

00:03:08.340 a few years ago

00:03:09.000 people were like

00:03:09.420 well there's more than one gender

00:03:10.420 and you're like

00:03:10.960 okay right

00:03:11.800 is there

00:03:12.240 and then you know

00:03:13.260 apparently there's 60 genders

00:03:14.760 and I'm like

00:03:15.340 and then it all makes you

00:03:16.820 it's confusing

00:03:17.200 it's confusing

00:03:18.260 mate it's more than 60

00:03:19.160 stop being a bigot

00:03:19.900 it's growing all the time but listen here's why we wanted to speak to you because we never wanted

00:03:26.120 to discuss the trans issue with any of these screaming loons on either extreme you know and

00:03:31.500 there are plenty on both sides and i remember seeing you on good morning britain talking about

00:03:36.800 it in a way that actually okay well first of all this person clearly knows what they're talking

00:03:40.380 about and also they're coming at it from a sane angle right so obviously one of the the crucial

00:03:46.660 points in this conversation now is the fact that you have trans women competing in sports, right,

00:03:53.820 against cisgender women. For anyone who doesn't know cisgender is someone who was born female

00:03:57.500 and is female, right? And what is your view on that for anyone who hasn't seen it?

00:04:03.760 Well, my view, controversially as far as trans people are concerned, is that I don't think you

00:04:10.020 can actually get away from the fact that if you've been through a male puberty the chances are not

00:04:18.000 guaranteed but the chances are that you are going to be taller bigger have a longer reach uh a greater

00:04:26.120 stride all of these elements that will come in a play if you're playing a sport and i would divide

00:04:34.800 it into two areas of the sport. I think obviously in terms of keeping fit and having fun and

00:04:40.320 recreational, then I don't think there's a problem. If everyone's happy to accommodate

00:04:45.180 people into that environment, then great. But I think there is a distinction when it's

00:04:50.860 professional sport at the highest level, because to reach the Olympic Games or a national

00:04:59.160 championships in a particular sport, the chances are you're going to have to have devoted your whole

00:05:04.320 life to achieving that standard building up the strength the agility the skill etc and what we

00:05:12.380 have now we have transgender athletes on the female side um who have gone through male puberty

00:05:23.140 who have been athletes as guys and they've been sort of middling mediocre you know they've been

00:05:31.140 okay and they've maybe finished sort of fifth or sixth but now that they've moved into the the

00:05:37.260 women's area you know they're winning they're coming top not consistently and this is the

00:05:44.240 important thing to say it doesn't always happen i think there was one year actually uh when paula

00:05:51.220 radcliffe was in a pomp she was actually the fastest long distance runner in britain bar none

00:05:58.420 You know, irrelevant of being female compared to the men.

00:06:02.800 So it doesn't always work that way.

00:06:05.600 But I think there is a difference.

00:06:08.120 And to say as some trans people such as Rachel McKinnon, who's probably the best known person pushing this argument at the moment.

00:06:16.220 For those who don't know, she's a cyclist who did compete before her transition and, you know, finished fifth or sixth, I would say.

00:06:26.420 But she's won a couple of high profile races since moving into the women's side of sports.

00:06:33.220 Now, Rachel's view is that testosterone has zero effect on performance.

00:06:42.320 And it's the same with skeletal structure.

00:06:45.700 She would argue that some women can be six foot four, which is true.

00:06:50.340 You know, I've seen Chinese basketball players, for instance, who tower over everybody else.

00:06:59.840 But they are anomalies.

00:07:02.360 And, yeah, you do get anomalies just across humankind.

00:07:06.160 But I think if you're going to have sport, and Rachel does want to keep the distinction between men and women in sport.

00:07:15.280 So she does want those two separations going off.

00:07:19.880 If you actually argue that testosterone makes no difference to how you perform as an athlete or going through a particular puberty, then aren't you really saying that there's no need to have a male and female division?

00:07:37.300 You're just saying that we are all the same.

00:07:40.600 So why doesn't Rachel just say, instead of saying, I need to compete in the women's division,

00:07:45.980 why doesn't she just argue, if that's how she feels, for open sports?

00:07:50.960 You know that men should be competing against women.

00:07:53.400 And I think that's where the little bit of hypocrisy creeps in with her argument.

00:07:58.500 If she felt that it did make no difference whatsoever, she'd be quite happy to compete against the guys.

00:08:06.180 Yeah. And it's also as well, if testosterone made no difference, and why is it on the banned list of substances?

00:08:12.620 Yeah. Well, there is one difference in terms of testosterone.

00:08:18.680 So you have your natural testosterone that your body creates, and you do get instances between the two genders where they're different.

00:08:28.300 I mean, we're sitting here now, and if we had, you know, some lab technicians in, there's a chance that you could actually have a higher particular hormone than I could have.

00:08:42.400 We're not necessarily, everybody thinks it's really simple and that men are full of testosterone and women are full of estrogen.

00:08:50.640 Actually, there is an overlapping area, like a Venn diagram, where you have the male circle and the female circle.

00:08:57.560 But there is a crossover in the middle and you can get just regular guys, regular women who are totally unaware that their body chemistry is actually on a scale.

00:09:09.580 It could be closer to the opposite sex.

00:09:12.180 It doesn't affect them in any way or they don't feel they're trans.

00:09:16.200 That's just how they are.

00:09:17.880 And probably the best known case of natural occurring testosterone in a woman is castesomenia.

00:09:25.560 But she's got a disorder, hasn't she?

00:09:28.220 She's got a disorder, and it's really important to say

00:09:30.660 that she's not transgender in any way.

00:09:34.280 This is her natural body that generates testosterone.

00:09:39.360 So Caster is an anomaly in that sense in her sport,

00:09:44.540 but the difference is she's not actually doing anything to her body.

00:09:48.360 And I just think that if you follow down the open the door

00:09:52.960 to anyone who is trans and we'll get into the, you know, the self-identification side of trans

00:09:57.960 later on because there are so many different shades of trans now. You're basically saying

00:10:03.480 that is the end of sport completely because you're going to end up in a situation where

00:10:08.840 Caster Semenya has to take drugs to lower her natural testosterone in order to compete

00:10:16.360 against transgender women

00:10:18.240 who are having to take medication

00:10:20.580 to actually raise their estrogen

00:10:24.460 and lower their thing.

00:10:26.780 It just becomes a drug circus.

00:10:28.720 But also the thing with testosterone

00:10:30.000 is not just about testosterone, right?

00:10:31.960 Because testosterone makes a difference.

00:10:33.720 But as you say,

00:10:34.360 if you go through puberty,

00:10:35.240 you're going to have a bigger heart.

00:10:36.800 You're going to have higher bone density,

00:10:38.920 bigger, all kinds of stuff.

00:10:40.200 It's more to do with,

00:10:41.960 the element is it's going through the male puberty.

00:10:44.540 That is the crucial thing. I actually think that in the future, because more kids are talking about being trans now and, you know, we're all more aware and more parents listen and they get looked after.

00:10:57.880 In the future, a lot of kids, you know, will be identified as trans earlier on, which some people might find controversial in itself.

00:11:06.400 But they won't actually go through. In my case, it would have been I wouldn't have gone through a male puberty.

00:11:14.540 And so in that instance, in that generation, when they grow up, they will be just like a genetic woman.

00:11:21.780 You know, they won't have that growth spurt.

00:11:23.320 They won't have all those changes that tend to happen, not exclusively, but tend to happen.

00:11:30.260 So in the future, I don't think it's so much of a problem.

00:11:32.760 But at the moment when you're getting people who have grown up that way and then moving into the women's division, it's a problem.

00:11:42.580 It would be just the same, actually, just off the top of my head.

00:11:46.380 If you identified somebody who was really good, let's say, at women's rugby at the age of 14 or 15, they had a real aptitude for it.

00:12:00.320 A woman, that is.

00:12:01.500 Yes.

00:12:01.880 A natural born woman who had an aptitude for rugby at the age of 14 or 15.

00:12:06.360 Now, if you said, right, for five years, we're going to douse you in testosterone, we're going to bulk you up, we're going to make you even bigger, stronger, etc.

00:12:17.240 And then you plonked that woman back into competing against women on the rugby pitch.

00:12:25.520 Right, yeah.

00:12:26.920 Would the sports allow that?

00:12:28.820 Or would they say, well, hold on a sec, you've actually been doping for five years?

00:12:34.360 Well, it depends if they play for the Russian rugby team.

00:12:37.700 I'm Russian, by the way.

00:12:38.980 And that's a really good point, actually,

00:12:40.660 because in the 70s, you used to get young whippersnappers.

00:12:44.520 You won't remember those days before the internet.

00:12:47.280 But in those days, certainly a lot of the East European states,

00:12:51.460 and it would stay organized.

00:12:53.780 It was a program.

00:12:54.400 I remember seeing shot putters on the telly introduced as Helga,

00:13:00.280 who would come on, and they were enormous.

00:13:02.600 They were literally like, you know, very pale-skinned, incredible hulks.

00:13:07.260 They were incredible.

00:13:08.960 So it does happen.

00:13:10.220 And it does, you know, we can all say, oh, well, you wouldn't get that now.

00:13:14.860 You know, we're better than that.

00:13:16.160 But are we really in sport every year?

00:13:19.620 Somebody in whatever discipline and whatever sex is exposed as having used whatever is the currency of the day to improve their performance.

00:13:29.820 The one question that I wanted to ask, I mean, sport is obviously incredibly important,

00:13:35.360 but somebody's not going to lose their life if they lose a 100 meters race

00:13:40.100 or, you know, they don't come first in the swimming.

00:13:42.720 What about combat sport where you have somebody who was once a man is now a woman

00:13:47.820 and then they fight, for instance, in the female MMA?

00:13:51.760 Somebody's life could genuinely be in danger

00:13:53.800 because that person is going to be stronger and more powerful.

00:13:56.400 Well, just before you answer, we had one of the leading evolutionary psychologists in the world on the show a few weeks ago, Jeffrey Miller.

00:14:03.360 And one of the things he was talking about is actually there's a difference in how human skulls evolved.

00:14:08.180 So the male skull is designed to take impact in a way that the female skull isn't.

00:14:13.860 So you're talking about life and death here, right?

00:14:16.760 Well, I think that potentially you could be talking about life and death, absolutely.

00:14:21.380 And you are correct, you know, about the bone structure and the thickness.

00:14:26.400 um etc if you've gone through the male puberty um the strength issue i just want to clear that

00:14:32.700 up first of all because if you this is why trans is so complicated and it causes so many

00:14:37.840 arguments i'm going to re i'm going to give you the simplest explanation of modern trans

00:14:44.680 as it is now so you basically have two strands of trans people you have people who do not want

00:14:54.100 to go down the medical route, which is valid. You're not hurting everybody. If you identify

00:15:01.960 as a particular sex and you're happy in your body, you don't have any distress and you

00:15:07.540 want to live that way, then great. You're not hurting anyone. I have no objections to

00:15:11.120 that whatsoever. But then on the other strand, you have people who have something called

00:15:16.320 gender dysphoria, which is like a recognized medical condition. And the only way, and it's

00:15:23.140 been recognized as such for the last 50 years. And the only way that the medical community have

00:15:27.880 come to terms with treating it and alleviating it is for people to transition medically,

00:15:33.580 which is the hormones, the surgery, et cetera. So you basically change yourself as much as you

00:15:41.740 possibly can to be that particular sex. Now, when people talk about trans,

00:15:47.140 those two things are mixed up right yeah so when we're talking about athletes and strength

00:15:56.140 some trans athletes the ones who have gone down the medical route such as myself when you're on

00:16:04.120 hormones actually your male physiology in terms of muscles and strength completely goes i actually

00:16:11.260 have less um testosterone in me than a natural woman yeah i have nothing yeah nothing whatsoever

00:16:23.320 whereas women naturally have a trace i i now struggle you know big doors all these things

00:16:32.060 which people say oh well you know it's you're just playing a gender stereotype believe me

00:16:36.800 It's absolutely honest.

00:16:38.660 I get bottles of pop, and sometimes I can't open them.

00:16:42.020 It's just ridiculous, crazy.

00:16:44.060 Whereas before, it just wasn't an issue.

00:16:46.640 So the strength in sport, when we're talking about trans, applies to some trans people, but not others.

00:16:55.820 But some people would say you still have a higher bone density.

00:16:59.560 That's the important thing.

00:17:00.580 So the advantage which across the board would apply to both those cohorts of trans people is the fact that if you've been through, and we're talking about the male puberty here, because I'm not dissing any female to male trans people out there, because there is no controversy around that.

00:17:22.360 No, because they don't have a disadvantage.

00:17:23.980 Guys are more chilled.

00:17:25.180 They're more relaxed about it.

00:17:26.800 They're not picking up a stink.

00:17:28.000 so that's the only reason

00:17:31.440 it's the only reason

00:17:32.620 I'm not talking about trans men

00:17:34.660 so

00:17:35.320 on that side of things

00:17:39.440 what were we talking about there?

00:17:42.080 so we're talking about bone density

00:17:43.660 oh yeah the bone density

00:17:44.760 so if you've gone through the male

00:17:47.900 puberty

00:17:48.940 you are going to have

00:17:51.680 skeletal wise

00:17:53.860 a difference

00:17:55.680 you know in terms of thickness

00:17:57.260 length of bones

00:17:59.320 etc

00:18:01.060 which in a sporting context

00:18:03.540 at the highest level

00:18:05.720 I think comes into play

00:18:07.380 I feel really sorry for

00:18:09.260 Martina Navratilova

00:18:11.680 who got a lot of shit

00:18:13.820 last month for saying

00:18:15.820 something. That was unbelievable. It was terrible

00:18:18.040 and do you know what, I'm really conscious

00:18:19.640 I have my differences with

00:18:21.820 certain elements

00:18:23.320 within the trans world of what is

00:18:25.840 trans and what isn't. But regardless of that, I can't abide anything that's driven by hate

00:18:32.320 or bigotry. I'm fine with discussing or debating actual points and having an argument, but

00:18:39.780 we can still be friends at the end of it. But I think there's a tendency, not just within

00:18:45.520 the trans world, but in life in general, for some people just to take it so personal, they

00:18:50.660 can't differentiate between an argument or a point being made and it being a personal grudge

00:18:56.300 grudge and i think with martina all martina said it wasn't driven by hate i mean my god you know

00:19:02.700 she's like an lgbt icon she had a trans coach in the 1970s rennie richards she's been a supporter

00:19:11.520 of trans people um and all her argument was which is the same as mine that at elite level

00:19:19.240 there is a difference and it's not fair and this is it's such a challenging thing to talk about

00:19:28.440 because like i said i've only become aware of it in the last couple of years so would you explain

00:19:34.660 what is a what is a trans person yeah so just breaking it right down what does that term

00:19:41.620 actually mean well i would have to go back to the start like the olden days yeah so it used to be

00:19:50.080 in old money you would have um it would be split into transvestites yeah and then transsexuals on

00:19:57.740 that side so transvestite was essentially somebody who felt more comfortable um expressing themselves

00:20:06.880 for generally a shorter period of time

00:20:10.480 as the sex opposite to who they are.

00:20:15.980 So a man who dressed as a woman on the weekend.

00:20:17.720 Yeah, but they had no intention

00:20:19.780 and they would be quite open about that.

00:20:22.700 They didn't actually want to be the opposite sex

00:20:25.900 or they didn't feel any compulsion

00:20:27.540 to be the opposite sex in that way.

00:20:30.460 Whereas transsexuals, which is,

00:20:33.380 that's what I am.

00:20:35.180 And, you know, I have no problem with the word actually still.

00:20:40.220 Transsexual is when you're born with something called gender dysphoria, which is it's almost like a disconnect, you know, from my earliest memory is just knowing that my body didn't match up here.

00:20:55.240 I wasn't aware of gender or anything, but I just knew it didn't match.

00:20:59.740 You know, something wasn't quite right.

00:21:02.340 and that goes into this whole complicated thing of all of us used to have had a sex change did

00:21:09.280 you know that because all babies for the first six weeks in the womb are female that is that is

00:21:15.800 the template well we've also had a species change of course yeah so what happens the the thinking

00:21:22.300 is that with transsexual people gender people with gender dysphoria that there's something that

00:21:28.440 goes awry so because you start off as female and obviously you're getting washed with hormones all

00:21:34.320 the time um while you're in the womb that there's some sort of disconnect and sometimes the brain

00:21:40.960 area doesn't isn't receptive to certain hormones that it's getting washed in and which is why you

00:21:48.260 end up with that the old cliche of the the expression you know my brain doesn't match

00:21:54.280 my body so it's a disconnect and it's a bit like also have you heard of phantom limb syndrome yes

00:21:59.400 yes absolutely so you know there'll be cases where which are well documented where people will

00:22:03.920 lose an arm or a leg in an accident but they can still feel it and gender dysphoria is a bit like

00:22:10.120 that your internal body map sometimes you think this it's just not right and it makes you feel

00:22:19.020 uncomfortable and then at times it can really get you down and just like be very distressing

00:22:24.740 so for people in that situation such as myself i tried to ignore it and managed to for for a long

00:22:30.900 time although it bothered me because i just didn't want to admit it um but for people like that the

00:22:36.560 only recourse is to go down the medical yeah and and how long were you did it bother you for are

00:22:44.080 we talking about 20 years 30 years all my life to differing degrees I can't remember a single day of

00:22:50.660 my life prior to transition when I didn't wake up and literally the first thought in my head

00:22:59.020 was I'm in the wrong body you know I'm a woman I'm a girl but I'm in this but eventually and I

00:23:08.460 can remember um i can i can remember being in primary school and finding this book we had a

00:23:15.420 little library and it's full of uh penguin story you know the little yeah absolutely books and

00:23:20.220 kiddie stories and what have you and um used to get taken into the library and you could go in

00:23:25.400 and you would pick a book and that would be your book for the week to read and i went in and i

00:23:29.720 picked this book up and it was um it was it was about fables it was like grim stories of the grim

00:23:37.020 brothers etc i thought well that's like a bright book that would be great and i took it home and

00:23:42.140 when i was reading this book i read this story um and it's i think it's an old norse fable that if

00:23:49.800 you can kiss your elbow you will turn into a girl and i can remember at the age of six already having

00:23:57.400 constantly constantly had that conflict i thought this is how i do it this is how i do it and i

00:24:03.180 spent ages you know trying to do this days weeks i mean oh it used to break my heart on my neck as

00:24:10.560 well you know and i just couldn't do it whatsoever and i can remember during that period as well

00:24:16.740 when i went to bed i actually saying a prayer please let me wake up you know in the right thing

00:24:24.000 and then waking up in the morning and having a look and it didn't happen i get quite upset

00:24:29.980 actually thinking about it but but that's that's what it's like when you grow up but then you reach

00:24:35.680 a stage or at least i did um you realize it's not going to happen magically you know tinkerbell

00:24:43.340 isn't going to come down do all that and everything's going to be great so when i was

00:24:48.860 growing up in the 70s it was even more taboo than it is now um and i knew my only reference points

00:24:58.900 for people anything close to mucking around with a gender that i would see would be either a drag

00:25:06.320 queen on the tv which wasn't like a drag queen now they weren't glamorous yeah they were like

00:25:11.480 proper blokey blokes but just like with a stupid wig and they were inviting people to laugh at them

00:25:16.860 and mock them and that terrified me because i thought my god is that is that what i am is that

00:25:24.060 i'm going to grow it so it was really scary so i thought right i'm just going to buckle down

00:25:28.620 and this is who I am maybe life won't be so bad so I'll I'm just going to try and switch it off

00:25:34.760 and and try and be me so then you learn the sort of social etiquettes and the routines

00:25:40.400 of being a guy and you know you try and blend in and nobody notices that you're

00:25:46.520 trying so much because to them on the outside you know you look normal they can't see inside

00:25:54.080 how you're feeling so you go along with that and you try and fit in and that's that's what I did

00:26:00.380 but it was always there until I reached I hit about 40 and I thought I had it under control

00:26:11.160 in the sense that I knew it was part of me but I'd never done anything about it I'd never acted

00:26:17.400 on it but then slowly in my 40s i just started to seize up you know i lost all interest in like

00:26:26.240 talking to people or doing things and i had like a group of guy friends um you know who we'd go out

00:26:34.260 you know to have a drink with and exit but it was all you know like whoa you know like glokey sort

00:26:41.520 a chat and i couldn't do the act anymore yeah and i i just i couldn't do it i just wanted to be me

00:26:49.220 i just sort of became really withdrawn um and that's when i decided to transition so you

00:26:56.160 getting back to the you know the definition of trans so i am now just one type of trans

00:27:04.660 yeah really when in actual fact you touched on the thorny subject which is causing all the

00:27:11.340 confusion at the moment in the last few years there's been a real explosion of different types

00:27:18.300 of i'll call it gender identity i think is the best way um to describe it which is all great

00:27:26.180 and good you know i am honestly having been through something that's caused me to stress

00:27:30.480 myself i think all of us we all know ourselves better and it's not for other people to tell us

00:27:36.620 what we are my only issue and why i fall out with a lot of you know the trans

00:27:43.120 organizations the big groups like stonewall and what have you that are preaching the narrative

00:27:49.720 and claim to speak for all trans people is the fact that you can't put 50 different types of

00:27:58.920 people under one word. And the most crystal clear way I can give as to why that is a bad idea

00:28:09.820 is that for somebody like me, having grown up as I did there, having that need in me,

00:28:16.560 and I've only found any peace or contentment since I transitioned. And by the way, since I

00:28:21.720 transitioned after 50 years i never think about my gender completely unless somebody asks me about

00:28:29.320 it which i'm happy to talk about it it's not on my brain whereas before it was every single day

00:28:35.240 um but you can't have somebody like me with gender dysphoria transsexual who needs medical help

00:28:44.020 you know they need doctors they need to go through the psychology thing they need the hormones and

00:28:51.420 you can't group us alongside the gender non-binary who say we need to demedicalize trans. Because

00:29:01.080 if you demedicalize trans or tell a government, this is what we want, we're Stonewall, and

00:29:08.540 we speak on behalf of all transgender people, and they want us to demedicalize trans, then

00:29:16.760 where does that leave the current version of me who's six or seven and has no escape route?

00:29:24.740 You're going to end up with a situation. If you say to a government, look, you don't need to

00:29:28.660 spend millions on clinics or providing this particular health care anymore because now

00:29:33.620 all trans people want is a form that you fill in and that is all they want, then the government's

00:29:39.240 going to go, yes, fantastic. The NHS is under pressure. We're going to save a fortune.

00:29:45.740 this is really easy to do

00:29:48.240 it's no hassle whatsoever

00:29:50.460 but it leaves

00:29:52.220 transsexual people high and dry

00:29:54.020 you're going to end up then in a situation

00:29:56.080 where transsexual people

00:29:58.360 who like everyone else if we have an

00:30:00.300 NHS and everyone's chipping in the same

00:30:02.260 amount and they all have different needs

00:30:03.840 and everyone says their needs are important

00:30:05.860 you're going to leave transsexual people

00:30:08.180 unable to access

00:30:10.740 the type

00:30:12.400 of care that they need

00:30:14.540 well you know when you're talking about uh though your experience of it i think there isn't a human

00:30:19.600 being listening to that that wouldn't go i i get it i understand yeah i understand i well i can't

00:30:25.860 understand but i i think i understand how terrible that must be yeah when you don't feel like you're

00:30:32.560 in your own body and and then when you do transition how much of a relief that is because

00:30:37.120 you know listen talking with you you clearly are someone who's very comfortable in their own skin

00:30:41.240 and he's very content with life, right?

00:30:43.880 But let me ask you this.

00:30:45.740 I really don't want to have to ask this question

00:30:47.320 because it's offensive to some people.

00:30:50.020 It's okay. I understand.

00:30:51.280 The way you're talking about it, right?

00:30:52.640 There are people who would say,

00:30:54.120 isn't gender dysphoria just a mental health problem?

00:30:58.340 You know, if your daughter came to you and said,

00:31:00.560 you know, Daddy, I self-identify as a girl with no arms.

00:31:04.500 Let's cut my arms off, right?

00:31:06.820 Most parents wouldn't go with that.

00:31:09.800 They wouldn't do that.

00:31:10.200 So how do we try and understand that and how do you maybe counter that?

00:31:14.720 What are your thoughts on that argument, let's say?

00:31:17.320 Well, my thoughts on that are because, you know, it's not a new thing.

00:31:20.980 That's the other thing that seems to be very much from critics of trans at the moment.

00:31:24.820 Certainly if you read all the tabloids and watch certain programs,

00:31:29.780 you might get the impression that they're a secret NHS conveyor belt somewhere whipping in five-year-olds

00:31:36.660 and rushing them through and they're going in as Bob

00:31:39.460 and they're coming out as Barbara.

00:31:41.200 Well, first of all, we all know that nobody on the NHS

00:31:44.180 gets any treatment like that.

00:31:46.820 Secondly, doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists,

00:31:50.120 can you imagine that if they gave somebody, a child,

00:31:53.820 a quick sex change at a young age and it went wrong?

00:31:56.840 No, they're going to be terrified.

00:31:58.920 So it's not like it's portrayed to the general public.

00:32:03.060 It is a long, drawn-out process.

00:32:05.320 and what the criteria actually is to be diagnosed this is on the medical side again i've got i'm

00:32:12.000 sorry i have to keep going over this distinction no no there are two different types of trends

00:32:16.660 so this is for children yeah who in your analogy there who consistently say you know daddy i think

00:32:25.040 i'm a boy i think i think i'm a girl whatever uh the criteria for the medical profession

00:32:31.460 is consistent

00:32:33.780 and persistent

00:32:35.480 which isn't the same as a fad

00:32:37.940 now if you go through a stage of being

00:32:40.220 say a tomboy

00:32:41.340 for instance

00:32:42.840 that might last, I don't know

00:32:46.040 a few months

00:32:47.420 six months or so, but you would still

00:32:50.420 be doing other things

00:32:51.400 it's like how we all have questions about our sexuality

00:32:54.080 of course, yeah, things come along

00:32:55.940 and ebb and flow

00:32:56.840 but all of that is completely normal

00:33:00.620 For all children, to question who they are, that's a natural, healthy thing.

00:33:06.800 But with transsexual people who have gender dysphoria, we do know right from the start,

00:33:13.940 just as much as you, I'm guessing, probably have never questioned.

00:33:18.780 I don't know the way you're looking at me.

00:33:21.760 I'm guessing that's what I love about trigonometry.

00:33:25.500 I'm guessing you've probably never questioned your sex.

00:33:28.560 No.

00:33:29.100 Ever, ever, ever.

00:33:30.620 So just as much as you're sure that that is the case, in my situation, then we have that every day, you know, until it's resolved.

00:33:42.200 It's as if you've broken your, you know when you've broken your arm.

00:33:46.180 You know, you can feel it.

00:33:47.440 You know it's not right.

00:33:49.700 The thing that I found actually really quite moving is the fact that you're talking about your experience and essentially you are having to live a lie for the majority of your life.

00:34:01.860 And that must be so painful.

00:34:04.440 The knowledge that you can never actually be yourself at any point and you are always having to have this mask on.

00:34:12.460 I'm sorry.

00:34:12.900 No, no, it was.

00:34:15.440 The first five, six years were actually horrible.

00:34:19.700 because I knew I couldn't talk about it to anyone in the 70s

00:34:25.940 because of that era, and it used to really upset me.

00:34:32.920 But then when I – people say, you know,

00:34:36.220 how did you learn to be a woman?

00:34:38.480 And they've actually got it the wrong way around.

00:34:40.900 Because I can remember as a kid, it was actually learning to be a guy.

00:34:45.660 Wow.

00:34:46.000 And a boy.

00:34:47.300 And I can remember a really young age just, you know, not having that comfortableness.

00:34:53.720 And so I thought, right, I'm going to consciously watch guys, you know, see how they interact because all the social etiquettes are different.

00:35:03.380 And again, you know, radical feminists would say, oh, well, that's just learned behavior.

00:35:07.940 You know, there is no such thing as gender.

00:35:10.440 The entire gender thing is made up, whereas I disagree.

00:35:12.920 Maybe parts of it are made up.

00:35:14.680 But if you look at lots of animal species, you know, gender is very, very distinct.

00:35:21.020 The one I always give is the lion.

00:35:23.080 And in the lion world, it's Mrs. Lion who actually goes out and does the hunting.

00:35:27.400 And dad stays at home.

00:35:28.900 Now, that's not because they've been to some PC class about bringing up a family.

00:35:32.660 To be fair, the lion does fuck all work, let's be honest.

00:35:35.840 It just sits there.

00:35:38.520 So, you know, there is a difference between the genders.

00:35:41.620 and i remember as a kid looking at boys and thought that's how i've got to act and that

00:35:49.280 was the learning bit that was the hard bit for me once i even when i you know i'd spent half my life

00:35:55.780 playing that character and actually losing myself in it so much but when it came to the point you

00:36:03.880 know when i transitioned and i thought right this i can't do this anymore this is the last day i

00:36:09.440 pretend to be a guy i'm not dressing as a guy anymore i'm just going to be me as soon as i did

00:36:14.720 that it just everything came you know as i am now it wasn't like a learned thing at all

00:36:23.340 there and but there are cases and what the your case is really you know inspirational um there

00:36:30.620 are cases of people who when they transition they almost they they think that it's going to solve

00:36:36.540 their problems but it doesn't that's a good point and you know and then sometimes they wish to

00:36:40.500 transition back or there's quite a few cases of people then going on and realizing this hasn't

00:36:45.060 solved my problems and then committing suicide could you explain a little bit about that yeah

00:36:51.240 well there's a few issues there I'll just clarify them up and the actual detransitioning

00:36:57.640 rates for transgender people despite what the papers say are really low I mean you're talking

00:37:04.140 single percent figures so for 90 i think it's 95 or 96 percent of people who actually transition

00:37:13.260 in a physical sense yeah there is no regret they're cured if you like you know they go on to

00:37:19.520 lead happy fulfilling normal lives within society having jobs raising their families

00:37:25.400 all those sorts of things and the reason excuse me i've had a gassy drink

00:37:30.380 the reason why i'm actually in favor of keeping trans medicalized to some degree is that in order

00:37:42.220 to transition at the moment down the medical route it's a big decision it is a one way ticket

00:37:50.160 so nobody wants to get it wrong you know the patient wants to be absolutely sure that this

00:37:54.660 is right for them and all the professionals doing the surgery and the work that's involved

00:38:00.300 with a medical transition they want to be 100 sure that there's no kickback now at the moment

00:38:06.680 because the rates of detransitioning are so small they're doing a pretty good job you know during

00:38:13.420 that long drawn out vetting period of saying actually this isn't suitable for you so we're

00:38:20.960 knocking you out of the line you're not going to be able to transition the odd one will get through

00:38:27.340 because everybody can put on a front as well you know a lot of people um can feel genuinely that

00:38:36.700 they need to transition but then after going through the evaluations with the psychologist

00:38:41.640 they might come to an understanding that actually this isn't going to make me happy this isn't the

00:38:47.840 route for me. So at the moment, the current system we have at the moment tends to weed out

00:38:55.620 or identify. Weed out's wrong because it sounds as if they're doing it for bad reasons. I think

00:39:02.400 the current system works in a good way for all parties concerned to make sure it's the right

00:39:08.640 decision. But if you go down the self-identity route, which is what is being proposed at the

00:39:15.820 moment, and I do like parts of it, but I really don't like other parts of it. You're going to do

00:39:22.100 away with all of those evaluations potentially, because it's a slippy slope. If self-ID becomes

00:39:29.820 a system where you can fill in a form and you can go to your GP and say, I filled in this form.

00:39:38.180 This is my human right to transition. Give me the drugs and do the surgery. And I don't want

00:39:44.160 any nosy parker asking any questions this is what i was your trans your detransitioning route and

00:39:52.360 the level of mistakes is going to increase and the the backlash from that is that all the critics

00:40:00.520 who i despise you know the people who you shout bigotry and hate at all types of trans people

00:40:05.800 whether they're self-identified or not i have no time for them whatsoever but it's just going to

00:40:10.420 put fuel on their fire, they're going to say, well, here's the stats. We now have 25% of people

00:40:18.220 saying it's the wrong things to do. Stop all transitioning. It's dangerous and it's putting

00:40:24.620 people at risk. I was going to ask you about that because listening to your story, I imagine,

00:40:30.080 and correct me if I'm wrong, that if you could have transitioned when you were five, you would

00:40:33.340 have done. Oh, definitely. 100%. And a lot of people would say, I hear your story. I understand

00:40:39.240 that and yet if my let's say my son or my daughter came to me and said you you know we don't let

00:40:46.860 five-year-olds that's right or drive or drink or smoke or do any of these things and yet this is

00:40:52.280 such a fundamental decision about that person's life you'd be worried though constantine if you're

00:40:57.480 if you're i don't have kids no i just have imaginary kids for the purposes of the podcast

00:41:03.020 your imaginary child if your kid said that to you quite naturally you would be worried you would

00:41:10.420 have lots of questions i'm sure yeah um but if again if i can just explain what happens when a

00:41:16.880 child does open up to their parents how they feel if the if they're good parents and obviously they

00:41:26.840 don't sort of lock them in a room or put them in a straitjacket or stick them in the attic

00:41:31.520 and they go and see a doctor and the process is something like this nobody rushes in

00:41:37.800 to any decisions so the first thing that would happen would be that the professional the gp

00:41:45.100 and maybe a psychologist would spend time with the child it wouldn't be like a heavy chat it

00:41:51.800 would be as far as the child was concerned it would just be like a normal conversation

00:41:55.660 but obviously the psychologist will be picking up um certain things then you might get to a stage

00:42:03.540 where the gp or the psychologist if they thought it was gender dysphoria which again is a medical

00:42:11.180 recognized condition if they thought it was gd they would say right well what we're going to do

00:42:16.080 we're going to tread carefully um let's try some time with keep the life as normal at school so if

00:42:23.180 it's if it was my situation for instance you know i would still go to school as a boy nobody would

00:42:28.760 know about it whatsoever but then when you come home you know spend time as a girl for three hours

00:42:37.400 or whatever this is with the parental consent everyone just acting normal and when you do that

00:42:43.740 over a period of time they probably keep a diary for about a year or so of how you fit how you feel

00:42:48.980 What's your mood? All of all of these symptoms. And then they would come to a decision

00:42:56.560 around the time of puberty. So, you know, 11, 12, just before it kicks in. And they would look at

00:43:06.460 the evidence that they have at that stage. And if you have a child who from the age of, say,

00:43:12.680 five to twelve you know just imagine that for a minute that's seven years seven years and every

00:43:21.980 day when they looked at that diary had been happier as a girl but when they were a boy they

00:43:30.960 were unhappy then to me i think that's enough evidence you know seven it's not being a tomboy

00:43:37.260 it's not a phase that you go through or a fad i think that seven years imagine spending seven

00:43:44.340 years in a jail and that's where it is effectively it's a prison it's like being in locked in

00:43:50.240 syndrome you're trapped inside um and i think personally some people might disagree i think

00:43:57.880 that sort of length of time where you have all of these professionals involved who are treading

00:44:04.040 very carefully, I think it's the right thing to do. Because the professionals, in a very good way,

00:44:11.880 they don't want people to transition. And I don't want people to transition either. It is a last

00:44:18.260 resort. It's a really hard life because of all the stigma. Anyone who would want to transition

00:44:25.960 thinking it's going to be a bed of roses is wrong it really isn't when you transition medically

00:44:35.060 it's something that you have to do it's not a choice i try to fight it all my life as i've

00:44:41.540 said earlier on i tried to switch it off and ignore it but just will not go away because

00:44:47.000 none of us can run us run away from ourselves and what advice would you give somebody who

00:44:54.680 as feels that they have been having this

00:44:57.440 and they've been closeted

00:44:59.920 is probably the best way of describing it.

00:45:01.520 Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:45:02.220 How would you,

00:45:03.100 what advice would you give them

00:45:04.280 if somebody is going through

00:45:05.340 and feels that they have had this

00:45:07.380 and they're carrying this burden?

00:45:09.040 Yeah, well, thankfully,

00:45:10.240 it's a lot better now than the 70s.

00:45:12.180 And, you know, there are resources

00:45:13.340 that you can go to.

00:45:16.000 If you go to the right places online,

00:45:19.180 Mermaids is probably the best charity

00:45:21.860 for children.

00:45:23.180 They give some great advice and just generally, you know, find somebody you can talk to about it.

00:45:32.040 Don't bottle it up like I did because it's just horrible, you know, and it and it will ultimately affect you.

00:45:41.400 The downside at the moment is while the Internet is a good thing in having all the resources,

00:45:47.960 if you go to the right sites and you're careful where you go.

00:45:53.180 Just be a little bit careful still, sadly, about using Twitter, online forums, et cetera.

00:46:02.760 It depends on the individual how strong you feel as a person.

00:46:08.660 I think just being brutally honest, I mean, I'm a confident person and I consider myself quite strong in that sense.

00:46:16.980 um but i get so much shit on twitter just for being trans basically and sometimes it doesn't

00:46:27.080 bother me but then other times like any other person you know if you've had a shitty week

00:46:32.620 and then you come home and switch on your phone and you've got all this abuse and you

00:46:37.480 you haven't actually done anything you're just being you but you get some idiot ranting at you

00:46:44.120 for being you then it can make you depressed you know it can get you really really down

00:46:49.700 so if you're if you're at a fragile stage and feeling gender dysphoric uncertain I think the

00:46:58.520 first protocol is I would have no hesitation go and see your GP start the wheels rolling in terms

00:47:05.820 of being evaluated and the initial stage of the whole process is talk you will sit with

00:47:14.060 professionals who will have big discussions about you um with you um and just find out who you are

00:47:23.460 how you how are you going to feel and and come to a conclusion whether that is the right thing for

00:47:29.740 you to do i was gonna if you don't mind i was gonna ask uh one of the issues you discussed on

00:47:35.660 on TV recently was misgendering, right?

00:47:38.780 And that may be an area of where I'm someone

00:47:42.240 who really believes in free speech to the point

00:47:45.020 where unless someone's inciting violence,

00:47:47.240 they shouldn't be able to say what they want, right?

00:47:49.100 And that's a sensitive area.

00:47:51.040 But before we get to that, there are these TERF feminists,

00:47:55.360 these trans...

00:47:56.500 So TERF is T-E-R-F,

00:47:59.260 so that's Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists.

00:48:02.540 And they're essentially, if you think in racial terms, for instance, they're like the BNP of gender in that they don't believe trans people are a real thing whatsoever.

00:48:17.100 So what they say, to put it crudely and literally, is trans women aren't women.

00:48:21.880 Absolutely right. And again, we're not talking about the trans men side.

00:48:25.760 I don't think they care.

00:48:26.400 Because that's not an issue. It's just the radical feminists.

00:48:30.340 But the root, if you like, of the reason that they don't like trans people is radical feminists.

00:48:39.200 And it's important to distinguish radical feminists from everyday feminists because most everyday feminists are actually on trans women's side.

00:48:45.380 They're really welcoming. They've embraced us. They're absolutely cool with it.

00:48:49.900 It's the radical wing that have an issue.

00:48:52.820 And the problem that they have is their thinking on the subject is that all gender, in a human sense, is completely made up.

00:49:03.780 So if you're a transgender person saying, there's something wrong, I've got this internal feeling that I'm the other person, that is a complete conflict with what they believe.

00:49:19.880 So the existence of trans people in a legitimate sense more or less destroys their argument that all gender is socially made up.

00:49:30.500 Because if you follow their line, all transgender people ever in the world have just been acting.

00:49:37.880 You know, I've been putting on this act so I can go home, get loads of abuse on Twitter.

00:49:44.420 And I'm having such a good time.

00:49:47.720 This is great.

00:49:48.340 You know, I've never enjoyed myself.

00:49:49.880 ever before um so that that is the the cutting edge if you like of the conflict between turfs

00:49:58.160 and trans people but the other thing they they will say is you know we've created this female

00:50:04.640 only spaces and now these people are coming in there and you know someone just needs to say

00:50:09.380 abracadabra i'm a woman now and they've still got a penis and suddenly they're in a woman's bathroom

00:50:14.380 or in a woman's prison, right?

00:50:16.860 A rapist with a penis in a woman's prison, right?

00:50:20.540 So those issues, I think the gender construction, I get it,

00:50:24.760 but on those issues, they're more practical.

00:50:27.280 I'm going to try and explain those because, again,

00:50:31.100 as with a lot of these things, I agree with some aspects of it

00:50:34.000 and some I don't.

00:50:36.440 First of all, the actual official stats for the argument

00:50:42.020 that terse will put forward in that if you allow transgender women

00:50:47.400 into the women's bathroom, we're all going to get beat up,

00:50:51.760 we're going to get murdered, we're going to get raped.

00:50:53.680 Well, actually, do you know, transgender women have been peeing

00:50:57.040 since time began.

00:50:59.560 Guess where they've been going, right?

00:51:01.540 It just hasn't been a public thing whatsoever, a discussion as such.

00:51:07.440 There are no stats whatsoever to say there's been a spike in the last few years of attacks on women from transgender people.

00:51:15.960 What you will find is the odd highlighted case from Ontario or Los Angeles or Calcutta or wherever they find one in the world.

00:51:26.340 But that's just bad people.

00:51:27.700 You know, bad people do bad things.

00:51:30.580 and the actual idea if you sit down and consciously think about it even with self-ID

00:51:36.340 the rules of self-ID that are being proposed are that you get the form you fill it in but you then

00:51:43.100 still have to go to a solicitor who will rubber stamp it and you need a witness and you have to

00:51:48.140 hand in the documents you know for your old identity etc now let's just have a hypothetical

00:51:54.040 scenario here. So I'm a sex pest. Okay. And I have one name as the old me. And I think,

00:52:02.800 do you know what? This self ID is going to help me reach women. I'm going to pop along to blogs

00:52:07.900 and blogs, the local solicitor. Here's my driving license. Here's my passport. My name from now on

00:52:14.100 is going to be Mildred. And this is my address. Great. Fine. There's your certificate. You're a

00:52:19.480 woman, trot off to the local bogs, right? You go in, you wait on a woman come in, you attack her.

00:52:27.020 The cops get called. They come in and you're there attacking and you're waving a bit of paper and

00:52:32.320 saying, oh, I'm a woman. I'm entitled to be here. Well, first of all, that piece of paper is not

00:52:38.220 going to stop the cops arresting you. But secondly, what license have you got? The solicitor has your

00:52:44.160 name and address. They know who you are. You have no protection whatsoever. So on a safety level,

00:52:53.660 using toilets and changing rooms, it's not an issue. So on that respect, I don't agree with

00:53:00.480 the TERF's argument. I think where there is a distinction and a valid one, and I think people,

00:53:07.560 you know, 99% of the population would agree with me on this. I think in areas such as

00:53:13.460 prisons. And there's a horrendous case, which you've probably heard of, somebody called Karen

00:53:20.000 White. And I'm just going to call them a somebody because I don't even believe the actual reasons

00:53:26.400 behind that person being Karen White were necessarily legitimate. And I think in a prison

00:53:34.040 scenario, if you have someone, and I can't believe the prison authorities allowed this to happen,

00:53:39.440 If you have someone in a prison for sexual offences with a male anatomy who decides to identify as female and adopts a female name and just for those three things is then put into the female estate with women, then you're asking for trouble.

00:54:03.320 You know, I think it was absolutely outrageous that that happened.

00:54:06.780 So for me, if I was prime minister, which is a possibility.

00:54:12.820 Are you announcing your campaign?

00:54:14.380 Yeah, I think so.

00:54:15.000 Well, the way the country's going, let's be honest.

00:54:17.440 The three of us, we could do it.

00:54:20.160 And I think if I was in charge, I think my red line in terms of prisons would be that if you had a male anatomy and you were in for those type of offences,

00:54:35.700 then you i'm sorry you just don't get to go in the women's area yeah it just seems ludicrous to me

00:54:44.420 i think that makes so much sense and i i this is one of the most illuminating interviews that

00:54:49.760 we've done we've spoken to over 50 people by now probably and i think one of the things that

00:54:54.680 happens online and i think we're all guilty of it is when we don't know something or we don't

00:54:59.620 know somebody we we dehumanize them and it just becomes a theory yeah oh trans people are like

00:55:04.600 this or these people are like that and when when you come and talk about it and you explain what

00:55:08.960 it's like what where you're coming from and also you have a very rational balanced approach to it

00:55:14.420 i think that makes such a difference too i think people on both sides can actually listen to that

00:55:18.640 and go well you know what yeah you know let women trans women pee where they want yeah let's protect

00:55:24.860 women in prison because it just occurred to me as you were thinking if you were a sex pest and a guy

00:55:28.760 there's nothing really stopping you from going into a woman's bathroom in the first place yeah

00:55:32.840 A sex pest is a sex pest, whether it's a woman or a man.

00:55:37.720 And again, certain groups will bridle at this,

00:55:41.140 but there are violent lesbians out there who will attack women.

00:55:47.960 Another common argument that's put forward recently

00:55:51.920 was about the fact that the Girl Guides had agreed

00:55:55.740 to take trans girls within their cohorts.

00:56:01.780 that's not a risk

00:56:03.640 you know the argument was that

00:56:05.580 oh well you can't have boys

00:56:07.240 sleeping with girls

00:56:09.200 well first of all they're not boys

00:56:10.980 because if you've got gender dysphoria

00:56:12.300 you're not feeling like a boy

00:56:13.880 how many boys would actually dress

00:56:16.900 can you imagine the stick

00:56:18.540 think back to your 6 or 7 year old age

00:56:21.920 and when you tell your mum

00:56:23.480 you're joining the brownies

00:56:24.620 you wouldn't do it

00:56:26.100 it just wouldn't happen would it

00:56:27.440 no I wouldn't

00:56:28.020 you would have to be really committed

00:56:29.240 oh absolutely you would

00:56:30.580 I remember I used to get in growing toenails

00:56:32.140 and one day I turned up to school in a pair of sandals

00:56:35.420 and I just got destroyed.

00:56:39.120 My nickname was Nikeer Jerusalem.

00:56:41.560 I love that.

00:56:42.260 That sounds like a rap name.

00:56:44.360 Yeah, but I just remember the entire existence

00:56:48.200 just got eviscerated and the thought

00:56:50.160 that somebody would actually willingly do that

00:56:53.120 and boys are ruthless at that age.

00:56:56.680 Your life would be miserable as a boy, wouldn't it? It would be absolutely terrible. So you're not going to get a regular boy doing that. And then the other argument that sort of, in my terms, destroys this argument that trans girls shouldn't be allowed in the guides.

00:57:16.440 there will be girls in there and again i'm not saying that it's wrong it's absolutely natural

00:57:22.680 and perfectly okay but obviously there will be girls in that room that are actually attracted

00:57:28.820 yeah of course to girls that trans girl probably isn't attracted so which one if you're going to

00:57:38.280 use that argument is potentially more risky and the interesting point on that girl guides

00:57:45.840 story as well is that the scouts had been accepting girls since the 1970s so it was

00:57:56.220 all right for girls to go into the scouts and go on camping trips and spend time away with the boys

00:58:02.200 but it's not okay in 2013 for trans girls to go with the girls I think it's crazy I think what

00:58:10.240 we can all learn from this conversation is that men are far more relaxed than women

00:58:13.580 do you know what

00:58:14.480 it's the best thing

00:58:15.440 sexist

00:58:16.700 no no

00:58:17.540 it's true

00:58:18.280 it is absolutely true

00:58:20.740 so many of my girlfriends

00:58:22.440 and I understand why

00:58:24.160 in my old life

00:58:25.620 I never really got

00:58:26.460 what they were talking about

00:58:27.460 but I totally get it now

00:58:28.800 and a lot of my

00:58:29.740 girlfriends now

00:58:31.220 they all say

00:58:32.460 oh we much prefer

00:58:33.100 the company of guys

00:58:34.200 it's much better

00:58:35.180 because it's not this

00:58:36.420 I do think

00:58:37.760 that

00:58:38.400 I love being a woman

00:58:39.480 and obviously

00:58:39.960 I am on

00:58:40.600 team woman

00:58:41.600 100%

00:58:42.900 um but i think there's this feeling that one side has it so much better than the other when again

00:58:49.740 the truth is believe me there are bits of shit on both sides yeah no team has it easy they're

00:58:58.700 just different yeah crap bits that's all um and the crap bit about being a woman is it's a different

00:59:07.180 I think with guys

00:59:08.600 if guys don't like you

00:59:10.320 or have an issue

00:59:11.740 you do a podcast together

00:59:13.260 you do a podcast

00:59:14.180 but you probably speak

00:59:17.820 you know

00:59:18.300 you'll sort of have it out

00:59:20.340 sort of thing

00:59:21.300 and then that will be

00:59:23.140 the end of it

00:59:23.700 and it's like really simple

00:59:24.980 to understand

00:59:25.680 whereas on the woman's side

00:59:27.760 it's so much more

00:59:29.300 complicated

00:59:30.180 the layers

00:59:31.140 you can be speaking

00:59:32.420 to someone

00:59:32.900 who's got the sweetest smile

00:59:34.600 on their face

00:59:36.160 and you have no idea what is going in.

00:59:40.300 So that is difficult.

00:59:41.600 Yeah, we like to end every episode

00:59:42.820 of Chuganomichon and Icecoed Old Fashioned,

00:59:44.680 but it's sexism that's going to get everybody in trouble.

00:59:47.440 Yeah, to appeal to our Russian viewers.

00:59:49.960 Thanks, mate.

00:59:53.500 You see what I mean?

00:59:56.560 Now you see what I was saying before we started the show.

01:00:00.120 India, it's been absolutely,

01:00:02.760 you know, it's been one of the most eye-opening interviews

01:00:05.460 we've done and i think just to humanize everybody on all these sides and to bring people together

01:00:10.000 that is one of the reasons that we started the show is we wanted to detoxify the whole conversation

01:00:16.280 about every issue that we talk about yeah well i think that's a really good thing and just the

01:00:19.860 last thing that i would say is that i think trans people generally across the media at the moment

01:00:24.520 that they're seen as caricatures almost like cartoon figures they have one role and in a tv

01:00:30.600 sense you know for me for instance you know even though i've been a journalist for like 30 40 years

01:00:36.040 talking about every topic under the sun um there is only one box in a media frame even now for

01:00:43.560 trans people and that is to go on and argue for your existence or if you're an actor invariably

01:00:51.220 you know you'll end up playing a prostitute or a dead body on a mortuary slab because we've

01:00:56.180 cornered the market in those roles and that is all that exists and i think when we get to a stage

01:01:02.180 that just normal life and normal visible things on the tv radio and newspapers they just show

01:01:10.520 trans people doing stuff but they don't refer to the trans aspect that's when we get past it i did

01:01:16.400 something yesterday this interview with the paper and the intro was and it was uh it was transgender

01:01:22.660 journalist

01:01:23.620 Indy Willoughby

01:01:24.240 and I was thinking

01:01:24.780 why is it

01:01:26.820 I just don't get it

01:01:27.900 you know

01:01:28.420 why do you have to

01:01:29.740 put the transgender

01:01:30.760 bit in

01:01:32.740 yeah

01:01:33.960 I can talk about it

01:01:35.080 but

01:01:35.440 I agree with you

01:01:36.560 it's not my be all

01:01:37.220 and end all

01:01:37.720 of course not

01:01:38.260 of course not

01:01:38.820 but in our defence

01:01:39.680 because we've just

01:01:40.420 oh no no

01:01:40.860 that was very easy

01:01:42.720 I've loved it

01:01:43.620 yeah

01:01:43.940 it's been lovely

01:01:44.740 what I was going to say

01:01:45.880 is in our defence

01:01:46.680 I think it's an issue

01:01:47.820 that is not understood well

01:01:49.300 yes

01:01:49.580 I get that as well

01:01:50.740 so when we have

01:01:51.480 someone who's interesting, articulate, you know, they know how to talk about these issues that we

01:01:56.620 can speak to. It's a rarity, which is why when we talk to you, it's about that issue. That's not to

01:02:02.480 say that there isn't other great work that you do, of course. But listen, before we let you go,

01:02:07.520 and thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure. What is the one thing that we're not

01:02:11.540 talking about that we as a society ought to be talking about? It can be related to the trans thing

01:02:15.420 or this is your one chance to break out of the box if you want to. I think for me, it's pavement

01:02:20.040 etiquette i think it's a real problem you know people particularly in london because obviously

01:02:26.160 i'm from up north and coming down here and i can't believe cockneys how do y'all do it

01:02:32.460 people walk around in london and if you're walking head on to someone they will not budge

01:02:37.680 yeah you you will always get nose to nose and it's like the chicken run they're not getting

01:02:42.880 out of the way but and then you end up moving away and then you get this ridiculous thing

01:02:47.320 where people have, like, their earphones on,

01:02:50.100 their heads down, they're texting.

01:02:52.980 They've, like, absolved all responsibility

01:02:55.140 for having a crash, a pavement accident,

01:02:57.780 and they're walking, and that responsibility goes on you.

01:03:00.620 So you have to keep your wits around

01:03:02.700 to avoid all these lemons.

01:03:05.480 I'm quite, I'm South London,

01:03:07.180 so when I see that, I just tense the left shoulder.

01:03:09.880 I know, do you watch that?

01:03:10.420 Yeah, yeah, no, I just tense it,

01:03:12.220 and then when they hit, they bounce off.

01:03:13.760 That's what I do.

01:03:14.720 Fuck them.

01:03:15.160 I love it.

01:03:15.300 This is how you know India is a very special person

01:03:19.320 because she's managed to find a Cockney left in London.

01:03:22.220 True.

01:03:23.220 There's not many.

01:03:24.380 Bloody immigrants like me coming up here.

01:03:27.340 They're all in Essex, aren't they?

01:03:29.200 Yeah, they're absolutely.

01:03:30.560 All they self-identify is Cockneys.

01:03:34.320 All in Essex where they belong.

01:03:36.080 Okay, we've lost all our Cockney viewers.

01:03:38.620 Who else have we offended so far?

01:03:40.040 Essex.

01:03:41.300 Essex?

01:03:41.920 Yeah.

01:03:42.060 Russians?

01:03:42.820 Yeah, Russians.

01:03:43.860 Yeah.

01:03:44.520 I've never liked you because you're half Venezuelan,

01:03:46.480 so let's offend the Venezuelans as well.

01:03:48.780 Listen, thank you so much for coming on.

01:03:50.780 You're on Twitter.

01:03:52.000 You're quite active on there.

01:03:53.120 Tell everybody your Twitter handle.

01:03:54.680 Yeah, it's, I think it's, do you know what?

01:03:56.980 I'm not sure.

01:03:57.460 I think it's India Willoughby.

01:03:58.660 Well, we'll put it in the video.

01:04:00.280 That's it.

01:04:00.560 Yeah, you'll find me.

01:04:01.760 And where else can people find your broadcasting,

01:04:06.140 your work, other things?

01:04:07.220 Where can they find stuff that you do?

01:04:08.580 Well, I crop up all over the place, to be honest.

01:04:11.160 You know, I often crop up probably like once or twice a month on Good Morning Britain with Piers and Susanna.

01:04:17.920 I do a lot of stuff on talk radio as well with the Matthew Wright show, with Kevin O'Sullivan, the TV critic.

01:04:27.020 And just about any daytime program, there's a chance that I'll be cropping up at some stage.

01:04:32.280 Fantastic. Well, follow India on Twitter.

01:04:34.420 As always, follow us at TriggerPod on all the social media.

01:04:37.640 subscribe to the YouTube channel if you're not already

01:04:39.940 a fanboy or fangirl

01:04:41.660 click the bell button

01:04:43.200 or gender non-binary

01:04:44.000 stop being

01:04:47.640 Russian

01:04:50.280 this is the bigotry

01:04:56.300 that I have to deal with in this country

01:04:57.840 on a daily basis

01:04:58.940 this is why Brexit needs to happen

01:05:01.200 so Francis can be deported back to Venezuela

01:05:03.200 this is what it's about

01:05:04.520 follow us on all the social media

01:05:06.960 click the bell button

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01:05:11.500 you can listen to the podcast

01:05:12.740 as many of you know

01:05:13.780 as well as watching it

01:05:14.680 here on YouTube

01:05:15.280 and we will see you

01:05:16.920 in the week from now

01:05:17.620 with another brilliant episode

01:05:18.740 absolutely

01:05:19.380 and also guys

01:05:20.400 please check to see

01:05:21.480 if you've been unsubscribed

01:05:22.620 if you have

01:05:23.240 please subscribe again

01:05:24.560 let us know

01:05:25.680 and we'll try and do

01:05:26.940 something about it

01:05:27.660 but once again

01:05:28.780 thanks for listening

01:05:29.520 we really appreciate it

01:05:30.440 and see you next week

01:05:31.180 well no Francis

01:05:31.960 won't see you next week

01:05:32.600 because he's been

01:05:33.080 taken away and shot

01:05:33.920 by Constantine's uncle

01:05:36.080 by me personally

01:05:36.840 No, no, by me personally.

01:05:38.360 Okay.

01:05:39.180 See you later, guys.

01:05:40.180 Bye.

01:05:40.420 Bye, bye.

TRIGGERnometry - April 14, 2019

India Willoughby on Being Trans, Trans Athletes and Women's Spaces

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