TRIGGERnometry - Is This the Death of Harvard？ - Steven Pinker

00:00:00.760 We're talking about the decline of Enlightenment values. I mean, what's going on?

00:00:05.500 Unless they are championed, people will backslide toward authoritarianism and puritanism, perhaps, tribalism.

00:00:12.760 So it would be a mistake to think that universities are just madrasas of hard left indoctrination.

00:00:20.320 There is that, and it really is a problem, but it isn't.

00:00:23.020 Each campus has a small madrasa for work indoctrination, but it's not the entire campus.

00:00:28.360 It's not the entire campus.

00:00:30.000 What we also seem to be talking about is a lack of backbone, to put it bluntly, within university leaders.

00:00:36.500 Oh, unquestionably.

00:00:39.200 Steven Pinker, it's been a long time coming, the conversation.

00:00:42.480 We're so delighted to have you on the show.

00:00:44.600 Francis and I, I used to be a stand-up comedian.

00:00:47.880 He still is.

00:00:48.860 Before that, I was a translator.

00:00:50.100 So my entire life, to some extent, like yours, has been spent obsessing about words.

00:00:54.160 And it's an interesting time we live in where I feel like, increasingly, we don't even agree on what words mean anymore.

00:01:01.820 How did we get here?

00:01:02.900 I'm not sure that it's worse.

00:01:05.840 I think there was never a time at which everyone agreed about what every word means. 0.99

00:01:10.540 But clearly, when you have polarization, political polarization, and mutual demonization, people will warp pretty much all of their thought processes to whatever conclusion makes their side look good and the other side look stupid and evil. 0.74

00:01:25.860 I think that's a general phenomenon of human nature, but it has increased with the negative polarization of the past few years.

00:01:35.600 I guess what I'm getting at is, I think, certainly in my lifetime, I don't remember a time when we disagreed about the meaning of the word violence, for example.

00:01:43.580 I don't remember people saying the words of violence 20 years ago.

00:01:48.040 And that seems like a pretty big leap to make.

00:01:53.840 Maybe.

00:01:54.320 I guess I'm always reluctant to compare now with 20 years ago, unless I actually see quantitative or textual evidence, just because I'm so sensitive, having written books on trends in history documented by data, which often differ from people's impressions.

00:02:14.360 But since there is a presentist bias, we tend to see the worst in what's happening now.

00:02:23.340 I think the kids are today are no good, but it was better when I was young.

00:02:27.900 We are wired for nostalgia.

00:02:30.300 So I guess I'd have to be more confident that there really was a change before trying to explain the change.

00:02:35.720 Stephen, that's such an interesting thing you said.

00:02:38.620 We are wired for nostalgia.

00:02:40.600 What does that mean?

00:02:41.820 And what's the psychological basis for that state?

00:02:46.120 Well, there's in general a negativity bias in all of human cognition and emotion.

00:02:52.200 There are many more words for negative emotions than positive emotions.

00:02:55.200 Criticism tends to sting more than praise elevates.

00:03:01.680 When it comes to memory of the past, it's not that we forget bad things that happen, but we tend to forget how bad they were at the time.

00:03:10.760 We remember the events, but we don't remember the negative affect, whereas the current negative affect is highly salient and we can't get it out of our minds.

00:03:18.900 And there are other cognitive allusions that give rise to a kind of nostalgia.

00:03:26.360 One of them is that we confuse changes in ourselves with changes in the times.

00:03:30.840 So as our powers fade, our memory fades, we perhaps become more committed to the skills that we have and therefore distrustful of skills in a changing world.

00:03:42.500 We tend to think that things have gotten worse as opposed to we're less adapted to a changing world.

00:03:51.340 I think part of it is as well, it's to do with youth and optimism, that when people were younger, they're naturally more optimistic, whereas people, when they get older, are slightly more, shall we say, jaded as it was.

00:04:06.180 I'm not sure that that's a general phenomenon, and if anything, what we're seeing now is in a wave of almost fatalism among your IDECA cohorts.

00:04:15.240 They say they're not having children because they don't want to bring kids into a world where humans are going to go extinct by 2050 because of climate change.

00:04:24.080 You have younger journalists saying that we're living in a hellscape of inequality and pollution and inflation.

00:04:36.440 I sense a great deal of pessimism in the English cohorts today.

00:04:41.680 You might be right that there's, in general, a generation effect, on top of which there may be a cohort effect, mainly the current generation of young people as more pessimistic.

00:04:55.440 And there could also be a period effect, namely everyone is glum nowadays.

00:05:00.600 And what do you put that down to, the pessimism of the young?

00:05:03.220 Some people have argued, I think, quite persuasively, that their actual material circumstances of their life are not as good as one would have expected if we believe in this idea that our children must always do better than us.

00:05:17.060 Yeah. Well, it is debatable because, in many ways, the life of a young person is far richer than, say, 40 or 50 years ago when I could cling to being young.

00:05:29.180 Such as access to art and entertainment, such as the cost of travel, such as the cost of food, such as conveniences like the internet, like streaming music, streaming cinema on demand.

00:05:52.520 More people will get on planes than they used to.

00:05:56.720 There are some things that have gotten more expensive over this period, mainly housing, medical care, and education.

00:06:06.200 And, you know, admittedly, those are big things.

00:06:09.380 But it's not, and it's certainly not the case that the economic growth from, say, the silent generation to the boomer generation has been replicated in boomer and Gen X and Gen X to millennial.

00:06:22.600 So, on the other hand, that doesn't mean that standards have gotten worse.

00:06:26.660 It just means they haven't as increased as steeply.

00:06:30.700 And again, just to throw out some other examples, most people nowadays have air conditioning.

00:06:35.340 When I was a kid, when I was a young adult, I didn't have air conditioning.

00:06:39.100 When I was a kid, I used to run through the sprinkler to cool off during the summer.

00:06:42.360 But, Stephen, you did live in Canada.

00:06:44.380 I don't know what it is.

00:06:44.880 So, we didn't need it.

00:06:46.740 We still don't have AC in the UK.

00:06:49.000 Okay, no.

00:06:49.380 Not in private.

00:06:50.280 We see it as the work of the devil, you know.

00:06:52.060 Yes.

00:06:52.360 Well, in the United States, it's pretty much equitous at all socioeconomic levels.

00:06:57.620 Another example is long-distance telephone calls.

00:07:01.660 That was an exorbitant dispense.

00:07:06.520 If a relative called, you'd yell,

00:07:09.140 One to the phone, it's long-distance.

00:07:11.520 Or if you want to call your girlfriend, then your rent money would evaporate as the pleasant minutes.

00:07:16.220 Oh, I know.

00:07:16.820 I was in a long-distance relationship with my wife for years before the internet, basically.

00:07:21.620 The internet barely existed.

00:07:23.380 So, I know what you're talking about.

00:07:25.120 What you're listing, though, is a series of material factors.

00:07:29.360 Well, talking to your girlfriend isn't a material factor.

00:07:32.380 That's essential than happiness and fulfillment.

00:07:35.460 Well, this is where I was going.

00:07:36.880 Because people talk about there being a crisis of meaning and a crisis of purpose.

00:07:41.780 Do you recognize that as a thing that exists?

00:07:44.460 We recognize that people say that.

00:07:46.080 Yes.

00:07:46.880 But, you know, I have argued, admittedly not terribly successfully,

00:07:51.980 that there are enormous opportunities for a medium and purpose,

00:07:55.940 namely improving human well-being on a global scale.

00:07:59.360 That if we made people richer and healthier and longer-lived and with better experiences

00:08:07.680 and more knowledgeable, safer, less likely to get killed in wars and genocides and street crime,

00:08:18.380 what's so meaningless about that?

00:08:20.280 What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

00:08:22.780 Oh, as an empiricist, just one thing on this.

00:08:25.340 From an empirical perspective, if people are getting richer and safer and yet they feel

00:08:32.000 like they're drifting more and they're more alienated and less connected to others, etc.,

00:08:38.060 which is the flip side of some of the technological progress that we're going through,

00:08:42.560 wouldn't that be evidence for the fact that perhaps the human condition is incapable of

00:08:47.820 simply enjoying constant improvement and needs some kind of struggle and fight or whatever that might be?

00:08:54.200 Well, it is true that we tend to pocket our gains and forget and fail to appreciate them.

00:09:00.940 Even if we do, it's still better than if a child doesn't die before the age of five,

00:09:06.700 as compared to dying, and maybe when we recount our fortunes, assess our station,

00:09:16.540 we may not credit the fact that our kids live instead of dying, but it's still better.

00:09:22.280 That is, life is better than death, even if people sometimes fail to appreciate it.

00:09:26.360 It's not clear that, likewise, if people struggle for a worthy cause, a noble crusade, a holy war,

00:09:35.660 and they die in the millions, well, so much the worse for feeling that you're part of a holy crusade.

00:09:43.380 We're better off with a little bit of enemy and alienation, but not disemboweled or beheaded or were to death.

00:09:53.360 I mean, I agree with you on that statement. I'm going to be honest with you.

00:09:58.420 I don't think there's much to push back on there.

00:10:00.600 But wouldn't you say as well that people need purpose in life?

00:10:04.720 People need a purpose. They need something that they're driving towards.

00:10:09.900 Yeah.

00:10:10.120 And it seems with, and again, these are sweeping generalizations,

00:10:13.580 but it seems that young people nowadays, they seem to lack this purpose.

00:10:18.700 They seem to lack a drive, which is where a sense of nihilism almost comes in.

00:10:26.220 Do you detect that amongst the young, or is my language hyperbolic?

00:10:30.160 Yes. I think that there's some of that, and I think many of them find meaning in what is,

00:10:35.760 I think, misleadingly called anti-racism, social justice warfare,

00:10:40.680 critical social injustice theory, wokeism, and so on, that does provide a life meaning and purpose.

00:10:48.060 As John McWhorter put it, anti-racism is our flawed new religion.

00:10:54.760 I think that there is a better source of meaning and purpose,

00:11:02.000 and that is to improve the state of the country and improve the state of the world,

00:11:06.140 figure out how to mitigate climate change, figure out how to educate poor kids more effectively,

00:11:12.900 figure out how to reduce the number of poor kids compared to the number of middle-class kids,

00:11:18.720 both in the country and worldwide,

00:11:21.540 to create new forms of CART,

00:11:24.280 to deepen the search for knowledge,

00:11:26.960 to know more about the past,

00:11:28.120 to have more exciting scientific discoveries.

00:11:32.380 There's no shortage of ways of making our lives more meaningful,

00:11:36.580 and I think part of the reason that people miss these opportunities

00:11:39.060 is the narrative of decline and doom

00:11:42.800 that is all too easy to promote,

00:11:45.880 partly because we've lost in our common education

00:11:49.840 an appreciation of progress,

00:11:52.720 of the fact that, yeah, there's probably some racism now,

00:11:55.880 but you just can't compare it to the era in which three African Americans were lynched

00:12:00.140 for week, week after week, year after year,

00:12:03.080 where the era of the Jim Crow's out to say nothing of slavery.

00:12:06.820 But yes, there are awful wars going on now,

00:12:09.500 but they don't compare to the war in Vietnam

00:12:12.600 or the Korean War, the Chinese Civil War,

00:12:15.640 that there's street crime now and police shootings,

00:12:19.100 but they were way worse in the 60s and the 70s,

00:12:22.080 if you actually count them.

00:12:23.140 Likewise, domestic terrorism and violent strife.

00:12:29.680 The institutions that I think younger people tend to take for granted,

00:12:34.760 which were enormous achievements in human history,

00:12:38.360 like liberal democracy, like the rule of law,

00:12:41.280 like science, like responsible journalism,

00:12:45.760 and it used to be that those were valorized in an education,

00:12:50.300 that those were achievements that we could collectively feel proud of.

00:12:54.680 Now, their flaws, and of course, they have flaws,

00:12:58.260 as does anything human,

00:13:01.180 are so emphasized compared to their gifts

00:13:06.720 that we don't appreciate the very mechanisms

00:13:09.940 that could allow us to learn still further.

00:13:13.140 And so you have people without not realizing

00:13:15.820 that the project of human improvement,

00:13:20.140 human progress,

00:13:21.840 the enlightened ideals of knowledge and human well-being

00:13:25.700 are just not a thing.

00:13:28.460 It doesn't include people,

00:13:29.240 oh, maybe that's a good thing to live for.

00:13:31.000 Maybe I don't have to root out ever more subtle forms of racism,

00:13:34.580 but maybe I can figure out a way to teach reading more effectively

00:13:38.880 or to mitigate climate change

00:13:40.740 without reversing economic growth.

00:13:43.580 Because one of the most worrying aspects of all of this

00:13:46.980 is people who see, let's see, the West as, you know,

00:13:51.180 racist, blah, blah, blah.

00:13:52.820 We know what the tropes are.

00:13:54.580 And it seems to me,

00:13:55.700 it's like looking at a beautiful house

00:13:57.220 and just going,

00:13:58.620 well, there's a crack here in this wall,

00:14:01.080 and this wall needs redecorating.

00:14:03.060 There's a bit of mold there.

00:14:04.360 And you go,

00:14:05.240 well, that's just life number one.

00:14:07.180 But if number two,

00:14:08.080 all you look at in your life

00:14:09.640 are the things that you don't have,

00:14:12.220 the things that you want,

00:14:14.400 the things that you are lacking.

00:14:15.880 I mean, that is a basic recipe 0.92

00:14:17.780 to make yourself incredibly miserable, isn't it? 0.91

00:14:20.400 Oh, absolutely. 0.97

00:14:21.480 No, I couldn't agree more.

00:14:23.220 And that we,

00:14:24.160 partly because journalism by its very nature

00:14:28.920 is a, by reporting on events,

00:14:31.680 gives you a non-random sample

00:14:33.540 of what's happening in the world.

00:14:34.960 It's easy to destroy something very quickly

00:14:37.560 for something bad to happen all of a sudden.

00:14:40.560 Good things aren't built in a day,

00:14:42.380 and they tend to consist either

00:14:43.900 in bad things that don't happen,

00:14:45.680 the planes that don't crash,

00:14:47.080 the wars that don't happen,

00:14:48.560 the famines that don't happen,

00:14:50.500 or things that creep up,

00:14:52.420 that improve by a few percentage points a year,

00:14:54.640 which then compounds,

00:14:55.880 which can transform the world,

00:14:57.760 but no one notices it

00:14:59.120 if their picture of the world

00:15:01.060 comes from journalism,

00:15:03.000 which has to be driven by something

00:15:04.620 that happened at 8 a.m. on Thursday morning.

00:15:08.500 So the reduction in,

00:15:10.200 massive reduction of global poverty

00:15:11.860 didn't happen on 8 a.m. on a Thursday morning.

00:15:14.440 It happened by a few percentage points a year,

00:15:16.980 and as well as a billion people

00:15:18.900 escaped extreme poverty,

00:15:20.380 and no one knows about it.

00:15:22.220 Likewise, government is conspicuous

00:15:25.000 when there are failures,

00:15:27.060 but we don't tend to celebrate

00:15:28.380 the peaceful transfer of power.

00:15:31.080 It hasn't been happening for a while.

00:15:34.420 Oh, it has.

00:15:36.440 You have to be sure if I'm joking.

00:15:38.820 I appreciate the jokes,

00:15:40.800 but the thing is,

00:15:41.200 if those jokes come too quickly,

00:15:43.120 then people mistake the jokes

00:15:48.100 for the reality.

00:15:49.300 The thing is,

00:15:49.640 we did have a peaceful transfer of power,

00:15:52.180 ultimately,

00:15:52.520 even in this country,

00:15:53.300 even with that threat,

00:15:54.540 and that is something

00:15:55.220 to keep in mind and to savor.

00:15:57.560 And, you know,

00:15:57.920 I appreciate the wise practice

00:15:59.120 by just anyone.

00:15:59.920 I think we should have a sense of humor

00:16:01.100 about everything,

00:16:02.220 but if we're too hooked with them,

00:16:03.520 if we don't realize,

00:16:05.000 we should appreciate the fact

00:16:06.780 that under a pretty severe stress test,

00:16:09.500 the system did work.

00:16:11.800 And likewise,

00:16:12.860 in criminal trials,

00:16:14.560 probably most guilty people

00:16:18.500 are found guilty

00:16:19.160 and most innocent people

00:16:20.400 are acquitted.

00:16:21.600 There are probably too many errors

00:16:22.700 of each kind,

00:16:23.700 but it's still better

00:16:24.360 than mob justice

00:16:25.560 and lynch mobs

00:16:26.440 and lynching judges. 0.97

00:16:28.860 All of the accomplishments

00:16:30.240 of liberal democracy

00:16:31.920 are just unmentioned.

00:16:34.640 They're backgrounded.

00:16:35.780 And so I couldn't agree with you more

00:16:38.500 that if you focus only

00:16:40.380 on the instances of corruption

00:16:43.200 and breakdown and failures,

00:16:45.300 then the attitude can be,

00:16:46.900 well, let's just burn 0.60

00:16:47.600 the whole system down 0.99

00:16:48.520 because anything that rises

00:16:49.560 out of the ashes

00:16:50.180 is about to be better

00:16:51.080 than what we have now.

00:16:52.020 And we know from some of those

00:16:53.960 destructive, violent revolutions

00:16:56.140 that that can lead

00:16:58.600 to major atrocities.

00:17:00.640 Well, let me try again

00:17:02.600 with the Doomerism narrative

00:17:03.980 from a different perspective

00:17:05.160 because I really want to stress test

00:17:06.480 what you were saying.

00:17:07.860 Do you think that part of the reason

00:17:09.440 that people in the West

00:17:12.160 in particular

00:17:12.900 are persuaded

00:17:14.620 by some of these arguments

00:17:15.620 is that comparatively speaking,

00:17:18.540 the West is clearly 0.68

00:17:20.100 losing power

00:17:22.500 comparative to other

00:17:24.120 rising nations

00:17:24.900 around the world,

00:17:25.660 other blocks of nations.

00:17:27.820 We see Western geopolitical

00:17:29.680 dominance being challenged,

00:17:31.040 whether that's in Ukraine,

00:17:32.260 whether that's in Israel,

00:17:33.340 whether that's in Taiwan,

00:17:34.760 wherever.

00:17:35.580 And so maybe

00:17:36.580 the reason people are

00:17:38.340 fearful of the future,

00:17:40.180 some people who are fearful

00:17:41.300 of the future,

00:17:41.840 is not that they think

00:17:43.940 the iPhones aren't fast enough

00:17:45.560 and the entertainment

00:17:46.860 isn't good enough,

00:17:47.720 but rather they feel

00:17:48.680 that we are losing

00:17:50.920 our top-dog status

00:17:52.400 or in the process of it.

00:17:53.860 I don't think

00:17:55.100 that top-dog status

00:17:56.320 of the West

00:17:57.300 is something

00:17:57.900 to particularly value,

00:17:59.520 particularly economically.

00:18:01.020 So China has, 0.77

00:18:02.560 what do they say,

00:18:03.480 four times the population

00:18:05.120 of the United States.

00:18:06.660 Their GDP

00:18:07.600 has to exceed ours

00:18:09.440 if their GDP per capita

00:18:11.240 is more than a quarter of ours.

00:18:13.240 So I don't think

00:18:13.800 that it's a moral imperative

00:18:15.460 that China be a quarter 0.64

00:18:16.920 as prosperous

00:18:19.140 as the United States.

00:18:20.300 I think that it's good

00:18:21.580 if they're as prosperous,

00:18:22.640 which means

00:18:22.920 they'll have four times

00:18:23.780 the GDP.

00:18:25.780 I think what's important

00:18:27.020 is values

00:18:28.420 such as peace

00:18:30.060 and cooperation

00:18:31.340 and knowledge

00:18:32.680 and health

00:18:33.580 and life.

00:18:35.300 The West

00:18:36.040 has promoted

00:18:37.060 some of the time,

00:18:38.940 but the West

00:18:39.400 has also been the source

00:18:40.360 of a number

00:18:40.880 of atrocities.

00:18:42.800 I think it has defied

00:18:43.780 the West,

00:18:44.220 but we did have

00:18:45.140 Nazism 0.87

00:18:46.000 and Fascism

00:18:47.840 and Communism

00:18:49.660 didn't come out

00:18:50.740 of the East,

00:18:51.220 it only came out

00:18:52.100 of the West.

00:18:53.100 So the thing

00:18:53.800 to value is...

00:18:55.080 The East really

00:18:55.920 took it around.

00:18:57.180 They did take it too.

00:19:00.740 I come from

00:19:01.280 the Soviet Union,

00:19:02.000 so I don't...

00:19:02.540 Does that count as...

00:19:03.280 Do we not count

00:19:04.360 that as the West?

00:19:05.460 I certainly would.

00:19:06.680 You don't?

00:19:07.080 I would, no.

00:19:08.520 I guess what...

00:19:09.260 But the thing is,

00:19:10.500 the economic argument,

00:19:11.900 if you isolated

00:19:13.820 like that,

00:19:14.420 yes,

00:19:14.720 but the argument

00:19:15.460 that I think

00:19:15.980 I would at least

00:19:17.060 put to you is

00:19:17.820 Russia and China 0.56

00:19:19.960 are not advocating

00:19:21.320 or promoting

00:19:22.040 the values

00:19:22.820 that you...

00:19:24.460 And that is the point.

00:19:26.340 Yeah.

00:19:26.620 And if they are

00:19:27.480 economically more powerful,

00:19:28.640 that means they're going

00:19:29.280 to be militarily

00:19:29.960 more powerful,

00:19:30.600 which means that

00:19:31.380 the values that Russia

00:19:32.580 and China promotes 0.81

00:19:33.520 are going to be the ones

00:19:34.680 that get spread

00:19:35.300 around the world.

00:19:36.020 And isn't that

00:19:38.480 something to be

00:19:39.520 doomer-ish about?

00:19:40.760 Well...

00:19:41.440 Or fears for love

00:19:42.260 or to resist?

00:19:43.660 Concerned and doomer-ish 0.79

00:19:46.020 out.

00:19:46.820 So I think that's

00:19:47.600 a vital distinction

00:19:48.280 because problems

00:19:49.480 are inevitable

00:19:50.140 and problems

00:19:51.300 don't mean that

00:19:51.980 we're doomed.

00:19:53.040 It means that

00:19:53.740 we can try to

00:19:54.780 mitigate them,

00:19:56.340 realizing that

00:19:57.000 any solution

00:19:57.580 will create

00:19:58.140 new problems.

00:19:59.540 But I think

00:19:59.880 the mindset

00:20:00.520 that if there's

00:20:01.280 a problem,

00:20:01.920 then we're doomed

00:20:02.580 is itself...

00:20:04.860 Well, let's take

00:20:05.520 that back

00:20:05.920 and talk about

00:20:06.680 something about

00:20:07.660 the decline of the West.

00:20:08.320 So there is a...

00:20:09.760 So it's not

00:20:10.540 the decline of the West,

00:20:11.640 but it is the decline

00:20:12.460 of enlightenment values

00:20:14.040 that's discerning.

00:20:16.620 And the question is

00:20:17.340 when...

00:20:19.120 I think a few years ago

00:20:20.100 it might have been plausible,

00:20:21.040 it seems less plausible now,

00:20:22.280 but it still can come back

00:20:23.400 that as China

00:20:23.980 gets richer

00:20:24.960 and concerned

00:20:26.240 about getting richer still,

00:20:27.980 it will not get involved 1.00

00:20:30.080 in stupid, 1.00

00:20:31.200 wasteful wars, 1.00

00:20:31.920 but just try to make

00:20:32.700 its populace

00:20:33.400 as rich as possible.

00:20:34.500 To the extent

00:20:35.580 that that's

00:20:36.200 their aspiration,

00:20:37.300 I think that would

00:20:37.840 be a good thing.

00:20:38.980 The fear is that

00:20:41.080 values such as

00:20:43.900 national glory

00:20:45.080 and hegemony

00:20:46.140 and dominance

00:20:47.160 just to stoke

00:20:48.120 the ego

00:20:48.720 of an autocratic leader,

00:20:51.420 if those become

00:20:52.180 preeminent,

00:20:52.940 then I think

00:20:53.260 that is a threat.

00:20:55.080 I wouldn't couch it

00:20:55.880 as West versus

00:20:57.000 the rest

00:20:57.560 because the West

00:20:58.720 has done some

00:20:59.180 nasty things too.

00:21:00.960 I think the West

00:21:01.740 has been the source

00:21:02.760 of many

00:21:04.240 humanistic

00:21:04.880 and enlightenment values,

00:21:06.160 but some have come

00:21:07.040 out of the east as well

00:21:08.240 and it's the values

00:21:09.100 themselves that matter

00:21:10.240 rather than being

00:21:11.540 the pajamas or West.

00:21:13.640 It does a connect,

00:21:14.820 it seems, surely.

00:21:16.520 Statistically, yeah,

00:21:17.600 but they're not

00:21:18.020 the same thing.

00:21:19.000 What I'm saying is

00:21:20.080 if the West

00:21:20.680 is not top dog

00:21:21.480 in the world,

00:21:22.120 the values you care

00:21:23.140 about so much

00:21:23.900 will not be

00:21:24.820 the predominant values

00:21:26.300 of the world.

00:21:27.020 Depends on which

00:21:27.660 Western values too.

00:21:28.780 I mean,

00:21:29.320 Donald Trump

00:21:30.060 is up here.

00:21:31.560 I propose Donald Trump

00:21:33.080 to Vladimir Putin.

00:21:34.580 Well, I do,

00:21:35.160 but they love each other.

00:21:37.240 So they're part of,

00:21:39.300 there's a sense

00:21:39.980 in which they are

00:21:40.700 part of a promotion

00:21:44.560 of nationalism,

00:21:45.720 of populism,

00:21:46.840 of investing power

00:21:47.780 in a strong,

00:21:49.080 charismatic leader

00:21:49.980 as opposed to

00:21:50.560 the democratic process.

00:21:52.240 So it's that idea

00:21:53.460 that concerns me

00:21:54.840 rather than

00:21:55.740 let's make sure

00:21:56.440 that the West

00:21:57.200 predominates.

00:21:57.840 Now, to the extent

00:21:58.400 that the West

00:21:59.000 is aligned

00:21:59.940 with those values,

00:22:01.680 then as a side effect,

00:22:05.620 there would be better

00:22:06.400 if the West

00:22:09.820 were dominated.

00:22:11.140 But the dominance itself,

00:22:14.640 and you know,

00:22:15.760 the West hasn't

00:22:16.360 always dominated.

00:22:17.120 We didn't do so well

00:22:17.960 in Vietnam,

00:22:19.960 didn't do so well

00:22:20.900 in Iraq

00:22:21.500 and Afghanistan.

00:22:23.060 So even the,

00:22:23.820 again,

00:22:24.200 going back to

00:22:25.440 the dangers

00:22:26.560 of nostalgia,

00:22:27.840 the idea

00:22:28.400 that there was

00:22:29.040 an American-led

00:22:30.460 liberal international

00:22:32.520 quarter

00:22:33.040 is a little bit

00:22:34.720 Rose-Glasses-ish.

00:22:37.700 That the,

00:22:38.820 I think there is,

00:22:40.260 there was more

00:22:41.000 of a rules-based

00:22:41.820 international quarter,

00:22:43.440 but attributing it

00:22:45.040 to the hegemony

00:22:45.760 of the United States

00:22:46.800 may be a misattribution.

00:22:48.900 Let me just ask

00:22:49.540 one question

00:22:50.040 before you take over,

00:22:50.820 Francis,

00:22:51.020 Broadway's smash hit,

00:22:54.060 the Neil Diamond

00:22:54.700 musical,

00:22:55.480 A Beautiful Noise,

00:22:56.900 is coming to Toronto.

00:22:58.340 The true story

00:22:59.100 of a kid from Brooklyn

00:23:00.180 destined for something more,

00:23:01.860 featuring all the songs

00:23:02.860 you love,

00:23:03.600 including America,

00:23:04.900 Forever in Blue Jeans,

00:23:06.080 and Sweet Caroline.

00:23:07.600 Like Jersey Boys 0.99

00:23:08.560 and Beautiful,

00:23:09.400 the next musical

00:23:10.360 mega hit is here,

00:23:11.700 the Neil Diamond

00:23:12.440 musical,

00:23:13.260 A Beautiful Noise.

00:23:14.440 Now through June 7,

00:23:15.680 2026,

00:23:16.800 at the Princess

00:23:17.420 of Wales Theatre.

00:23:18.340 Get tickets

00:23:19.100 at Mervish.com.

00:23:22.780 I'm stress testing

00:23:24.120 what you're saying

00:23:24.720 in a devil's advocate

00:23:25.840 kind of way.

00:23:26.740 It does sound to me

00:23:27.640 a little bit like

00:23:28.800 every time you bring up

00:23:30.680 the fact that the West

00:23:31.480 isn't perfect,

00:23:32.980 you're sort of doing

00:23:34.020 what the woke college

00:23:35.100 students are doing

00:23:35.920 in that they're saying,

00:23:37.260 well, you know,

00:23:37.900 why should we be

00:23:40.300 happy to live

00:23:41.940 in this country

00:23:42.580 when we've done this

00:23:43.540 and this and Iraq

00:23:44.620 and Afghanistan,

00:23:45.440 which were both wars

00:23:46.340 I was against,

00:23:47.000 by the way,

00:23:47.560 just so I'm

00:23:48.320 I'm just saying

00:23:48.820 I don't think

00:23:49.560 our imperfection

00:23:50.420 are reason enough

00:23:51.380 to not want

00:23:52.720 to maintain

00:23:53.740 the values

00:23:54.820 that the West

00:23:55.900 at its best

00:23:58.340 holds.

00:23:59.460 Yeah, well,

00:23:59.860 I would completely agree

00:24:00.640 on that.

00:24:01.300 Because it's the values

00:24:02.720 that count

00:24:04.260 and indeed,

00:24:05.840 it would be

00:24:06.680 obtuse to deny

00:24:07.900 that those values

00:24:08.820 are way stronger

00:24:09.600 than the West,

00:24:10.280 however you define

00:24:10.940 the West,

00:24:11.480 including

00:24:12.040 gender equality

00:24:13.860 and gay rights

00:24:15.640 and democracy

00:24:16.500 and, you know,

00:24:17.360 just anything

00:24:18.840 that we want

00:24:20.460 to venerate

00:24:22.660 as a value,

00:24:23.660 you know,

00:24:23.820 there's more of it

00:24:24.480 in the United States

00:24:25.080 than in Iran

00:24:26.040 or in Russia

00:24:27.220 or in China.

00:24:29.200 And so,

00:24:30.040 you know,

00:24:30.540 hooray for us

00:24:31.200 for championing

00:24:32.020 those values,

00:24:33.900 but it's the values

00:24:35.440 rather than

00:24:36.260 the kind of

00:24:37.680 Western chauvinism.

00:24:38.780 Us versus

00:24:39.420 everybody else.

00:24:40.300 Got it, exactly.

00:24:40.720 Stephen,

00:24:42.080 we're talking

00:24:42.580 about the decline

00:24:43.280 of enlightenment values

00:24:44.620 and we can see

00:24:45.940 in a lot of

00:24:46.560 academic institutions,

00:24:47.980 particularly Ivy League,

00:24:49.680 that there does seem

00:24:50.560 to be a decline

00:24:51.320 in those values.

00:24:52.780 Why is that?

00:24:54.100 And,

00:24:54.480 I mean,

00:24:55.620 what's going on?

00:24:56.940 Yeah,

00:24:57.560 there's,

00:24:58.620 you know,

00:24:58.760 I think the values

00:24:59.460 are very

00:25:00.280 unintuitive

00:25:02.980 and that

00:25:03.920 there's a

00:25:04.480 natural

00:25:05.540 ax-living

00:25:06.480 unless there's

00:25:07.080 a constant effort

00:25:08.140 to keep

00:25:08.860 pushing the rock

00:25:09.800 up the hill.

00:25:11.100 But what the

00:25:11.620 enlightenment ideals

00:25:13.480 of objective

00:25:14.640 knowledge about

00:25:15.820 all intellectual

00:25:16.960 questions,

00:25:17.920 historical,

00:25:18.940 scientific,

00:25:20.120 existential,

00:25:21.000 and so on,

00:25:22.160 of the

00:25:23.400 promoting

00:25:25.860 institutions

00:25:27.160 and values,

00:25:28.080 even if they

00:25:28.900 sometimes go

00:25:29.660 against your

00:25:30.300 interests,

00:25:31.040 it's the rules

00:25:31.700 that count,

00:25:32.400 not top-dogging.

00:25:35.980 Values like

00:25:36.940 free speech

00:25:38.700 ought to be

00:25:39.500 preserved

00:25:41.500 even for

00:25:42.200 people you

00:25:42.780 disagree with.

00:25:44.200 These are all

00:25:45.060 historically

00:25:46.720 deeply weird

00:25:47.580 ideas.

00:25:48.280 I think they're

00:25:48.660 excellent ideas.

00:25:50.100 I think we should

00:25:50.620 expect that

00:25:51.380 unless they are

00:25:52.200 championed,

00:25:53.200 people will

00:25:53.640 backslide toward

00:25:54.560 authoritarianism

00:25:55.680 and puritanism

00:25:56.920 and tribalism.

00:25:58.340 And so we see

00:25:59.060 that backsliding

00:25:59.900 in the university,

00:26:01.620 partly abetted

00:26:02.380 by ideas that

00:26:04.100 became entrenched

00:26:04.880 in the university

00:26:05.520 that are all

00:26:06.140 too consistent

00:26:07.300 for these values,

00:26:08.000 such as

00:26:08.380 post-modernism,

00:26:09.400 which says that

00:26:10.100 when it comes to

00:26:11.000 large questions,

00:26:12.380 there's no objective

00:26:13.180 truth,

00:26:13.640 there's only

00:26:13.940 claims to power.

00:26:15.320 You know,

00:26:15.600 that's a very easy

00:26:16.420 thought to entertain.

00:26:18.100 that it also,

00:26:22.820 I think there are

00:26:24.260 a number of

00:26:24.660 reasons why

00:26:25.240 the universities

00:26:26.160 were all

00:26:29.440 too fertile

00:26:29.940 ground for

00:26:30.720 some of

00:26:31.120 these illiberal

00:26:31.840 ideas,

00:26:33.580 like I like

00:26:35.800 demonizing

00:26:36.840 people for

00:26:38.120 racism,

00:26:39.620 sexism,

00:26:40.240 based on

00:26:40.980 almost

00:26:41.900 hallucinatory

00:26:42.980 infractions.

00:26:44.100 fractions.

00:26:45.080 One of them

00:26:45.440 is that

00:26:45.840 a lot of

00:26:46.620 people in

00:26:46.960 academia,

00:26:47.400 I don't think

00:26:47.960 really have

00:26:48.500 thought deeply

00:26:49.380 about the

00:26:50.540 mission of

00:26:51.420 the university

00:26:52.000 and the

00:26:53.520 conditions that

00:26:55.160 are necessary

00:26:55.800 for it to

00:26:56.320 fulfill those

00:26:57.500 missions,

00:26:57.960 such as

00:26:58.620 maybe acquiring

00:26:59.440 and transmitting

00:27:00.100 knowledge.

00:27:01.160 You've got a

00:27:01.980 department chair

00:27:02.940 who's a

00:27:03.240 biochemist

00:27:03.920 or an expert

00:27:05.000 on the

00:27:06.600 19th century

00:27:07.820 Spanish novel

00:27:08.680 and what

00:27:10.360 we're all

00:27:10.960 doing this

00:27:11.380 for,

00:27:11.900 why we have

00:27:12.620 universities,

00:27:13.160 why we

00:27:13.780 should have

00:27:14.080 academic

00:27:14.440 freedom.

00:27:14.900 I don't

00:27:15.080 think they

00:27:15.580 give in a

00:27:15.840 lot of

00:27:16.040 thought to

00:27:16.320 that.

00:27:17.240 I think

00:27:18.100 professors do

00:27:18.860 have a

00:27:19.160 conception

00:27:19.600 that there

00:27:20.520 are united

00:27:23.060 racists out

00:27:24.480 there, 0.55

00:27:25.180 we're superior

00:27:25.780 to them,

00:27:27.280 our goal

00:27:27.800 should be

00:27:28.440 to promote

00:27:30.740 the values

00:27:32.620 of our

00:27:33.000 kind of

00:27:33.660 people.

00:27:34.460 Then you've

00:27:34.860 got a

00:27:35.860 younger

00:27:36.060 generation

00:27:36.620 coming and

00:27:37.100 saying,

00:27:37.400 well,

00:27:37.540 we're even

00:27:37.980 more against

00:27:38.640 racism than

00:27:39.500 you are,

00:27:40.120 and the

00:27:40.420 first reaction

00:27:40.920 is,

00:27:41.240 great,

00:27:41.680 just like

00:27:43.380 us,

00:27:43.860 only more

00:27:45.440 fervent and

00:27:46.660 more committed.

00:27:48.600 A big

00:27:48.920 mistake,

00:27:50.080 a big

00:27:50.620 misunderstanding

00:27:51.280 because these

00:27:52.320 new ideologies

00:27:53.360 are not

00:27:54.300 liberal,

00:27:54.720 they're highly

00:27:55.180 illiberal,

00:27:56.280 but because

00:27:56.820 their commonality

00:27:58.180 is a common

00:27:59.660 entity.

00:28:00.400 They read

00:28:00.840 the right,

00:28:03.040 the less

00:28:03.680 educated,

00:28:04.940 the non-coastal,

00:28:06.800 guardians of

00:28:09.780 academia

00:28:10.520 gave away

00:28:11.420 the keys,

00:28:12.080 and not

00:28:12.340 just academia,

00:28:13.360 but also

00:28:13.960 non-profits

00:28:14.740 and many

00:28:15.260 journalistic

00:28:15.740 institutions.

00:28:17.720 Combined

00:28:18.360 with the

00:28:18.640 fact that

00:28:19.140 part of

00:28:19.800 the playbook

00:28:20.580 of the

00:28:21.500 kind of

00:28:23.060 woke

00:28:23.260 insurgents

00:28:23.860 was to

00:28:24.400 take over

00:28:24.880 institutions

00:28:25.660 under the

00:28:30.720 playbook

00:28:31.880 of intellectuals

00:28:33.080 like Marcuse,

00:28:34.160 who said

00:28:35.300 that, unlike

00:28:36.640 the violent

00:28:38.160 revolution of

00:28:38.900 the proletariat

00:28:39.660 that classical

00:28:40.460 Marxism

00:28:41.260 endorsed,

00:28:42.960 if you have

00:28:43.600 educated people

00:28:45.020 worming their

00:28:45.960 way into

00:28:46.640 universities

00:28:47.420 and non-profits

00:28:49.000 and scientific

00:28:50.200 societies and

00:28:51.380 newspapers and

00:28:52.200 magazines,

00:28:52.820 that would be

00:28:53.400 the later

00:28:53.680 revolutionized

00:28:54.460 society,

00:28:56.580 and they

00:28:57.160 have followed

00:28:57.740 that playbook

00:28:58.520 very successfully.

00:29:01.440 I think

00:29:02.260 there is a

00:29:02.760 kind of

00:29:03.940 generational

00:29:04.400 warfare,

00:29:04.960 I remember

00:29:05.880 when I was

00:29:07.560 the young

00:29:07.740 person,

00:29:08.120 we hadn't

00:29:09.080 accomplished

00:29:09.480 anything,

00:29:10.240 we didn't

00:29:10.540 have any

00:29:11.060 status or

00:29:12.640 achievements,

00:29:14.480 but one

00:29:14.740 thing we

00:29:15.040 could claim

00:29:15.900 is that we

00:29:16.380 were more

00:29:17.080 morally

00:29:18.080 pure to

00:29:18.980 our elders,

00:29:19.880 we were

00:29:20.540 against the

00:29:21.080 Vietnam War

00:29:21.740 even more

00:29:22.320 than they

00:29:22.660 were,

00:29:23.260 and so

00:29:23.820 there is a

00:29:24.300 natural

00:29:24.800 tendency,

00:29:25.740 especially

00:29:26.000 where there is

00:29:26.320 a perception

00:29:26.920 of generational

00:29:27.880 honor,

00:29:28.740 and to some

00:29:29.140 extent the

00:29:29.560 perception is

00:29:30.240 accurate,

00:29:30.820 I think a

00:29:31.120 lot of

00:29:31.380 policies favor

00:29:32.740 incumbent

00:29:33.340 boomers over 0.77

00:29:35.180 younger

00:29:35.620 cohorts,

00:29:36.400 such as

00:29:36.720 restrictions

00:29:37.200 on building

00:29:37.980 housing,

00:29:39.420 the United

00:29:40.080 States,

00:29:41.460 the tax

00:29:41.940 detectability

00:29:42.540 of mortgage

00:29:43.200 payments that

00:29:44.180 make incumbent

00:29:46.320 owners

00:29:47.020 privileged compared

00:29:48.740 to younger

00:29:49.700 renters,

00:29:50.280 so there

00:29:51.020 really is

00:29:51.480 an attempt

00:29:51.880 to guard

00:29:53.460 the wealth

00:29:54.240 for the

00:29:54.660 older

00:29:54.960 generations,

00:29:55.780 and so

00:29:56.020 there's

00:29:56.280 some

00:29:56.420 justifiable

00:29:57.660 resentment

00:29:58.160 in younger

00:29:58.640 generations,

00:29:59.760 but instead

00:30:00.520 of being

00:30:00.880 directed at

00:30:02.140 appropriate

00:30:02.620 targets,

00:30:03.540 like policies

00:30:04.480 that restrict

00:30:05.100 the building

00:30:05.540 and housing,

00:30:06.760 or universities

00:30:07.820 being able to

00:30:08.860 raise tuition

00:30:09.820 at will

00:30:11.680 by hiring

00:30:12.380 layers and

00:30:13.220 layers of

00:30:13.660 administrators

00:30:14.300 and resisting

00:30:16.100 technologies that

00:30:17.100 might make

00:30:17.440 the delivery

00:30:17.920 of education

00:30:18.640 more efficient,

00:30:19.340 it's easier

00:30:20.840 to wage

00:30:22.100 generational

00:30:22.840 warfare by

00:30:24.080 claiming that

00:30:24.960 your elders

00:30:26.200 are racists 1.00

00:30:27.760 and trans 0.86

00:30:28.320 folks,

00:30:28.900 all the

00:30:29.280 better if

00:30:29.860 that deposes

00:30:31.020 them from

00:30:31.660 their positions,

00:30:32.900 opening up

00:30:34.020 coveted

00:30:34.840 and professional

00:30:35.320 slots.

00:30:36.420 Stephen,

00:30:37.240 you said

00:30:38.000 that these

00:30:39.140 people who

00:30:39.660 are in

00:30:39.880 charge of

00:30:40.260 the institutions,

00:30:41.600 they may

00:30:42.180 be, for

00:30:42.580 instance,

00:30:43.080 experts in

00:30:43.640 the 19th

00:30:44.280 century Spanish

00:30:45.100 novel,

00:30:45.940 but they

00:30:46.280 haven't thought

00:30:47.100 that deeply

00:30:47.940 about the

00:30:48.560 role and

00:30:48.980 the purpose

00:30:49.320 of universities.

00:30:51.060 Now, to

00:30:51.380 me, I'm

00:30:51.720 listening to

00:30:52.220 that, number

00:30:52.620 one, I

00:30:53.920 feel quite,

00:30:54.540 that angers

00:30:55.300 me a little

00:30:55.680 bit because

00:30:56.040 I'm going,

00:30:57.480 well, you

00:30:57.700 don't understand

00:30:58.340 your job.

00:30:59.700 Well, yes,

00:31:00.400 you think,

00:31:01.620 but especially

00:31:03.480 if it's not

00:31:04.200 just any job,

00:31:05.040 but a job

00:31:05.540 that would

00:31:06.080 seem to

00:31:07.020 pay you for

00:31:08.080 intellectualization

00:31:09.740 and analysis

00:31:10.660 and understanding

00:31:13.340 of explicit

00:31:14.100 principles that

00:31:14.920 justify what

00:31:15.760 you do,

00:31:16.540 but you'll

00:31:18.480 find enough

00:31:18.920 of that in

00:31:19.320 academia,

00:31:19.800 I think,

00:31:20.200 in part

00:31:20.660 because it's

00:31:21.440 so easily

00:31:22.260 confused with

00:31:23.400 a sense of

00:31:25.220 moral and

00:31:26.120 intellectual and

00:31:26.860 cultural superiority

00:31:28.120 over, well,

00:31:29.920 certainly over the

00:31:31.680 unwashed masses,

00:31:33.100 but also over

00:31:34.020 rival elites,

00:31:35.560 over business

00:31:36.740 people and

00:31:37.660 people in tech

00:31:38.520 and people in

00:31:39.300 finance and

00:31:40.620 people in

00:31:41.340 government.

00:31:42.440 There is,

00:31:43.100 not to be too

00:31:44.100 cynical,

00:31:44.920 but academic

00:31:45.680 and cultural

00:31:46.400 elites do

00:31:47.380 engage in

00:31:48.040 status composition

00:31:48.940 with rival

00:31:49.700 elites,

00:31:50.740 and so to

00:31:51.840 denounce a

00:31:55.840 lot of the

00:31:56.340 world built

00:31:57.040 by rival

00:31:58.320 elites can

00:32:01.420 justify

00:32:02.200 denigrating

00:32:04.480 the present

00:32:05.060 and being

00:32:06.060 even more

00:32:06.680 merited

00:32:06.920 nostalgic for

00:32:08.000 the past.

00:32:08.660 This has been

00:32:09.040 noted for

00:32:09.540 centuries.

00:32:10.760 There is a

00:32:11.920 quote from

00:32:13.580 Thomas Favs

00:32:14.560 that competition

00:32:15.580 of praise

00:32:16.360 and fineness

00:32:17.260 toward a

00:32:17.900 reverence of

00:32:18.580 antiquity,

00:32:19.640 for men

00:32:20.220 contend with

00:32:21.020 the living,

00:32:21.700 not with

00:32:22.060 the dead.

00:32:23.880 And so

00:32:24.260 that's a

00:32:25.120 somewhat

00:32:26.800 cynical

00:32:30.000 explanation

00:32:31.840 of why

00:32:32.440 people tend

00:32:33.180 to be

00:32:33.980 nostalgic,

00:32:34.980 meaning to

00:32:35.780 romanticize

00:32:36.980 the past

00:32:37.780 is a way

00:32:38.820 of criticizing

00:32:39.740 your current

00:32:40.520 rivals.

00:32:41.000 So that

00:32:42.520 being the

00:32:42.960 case,

00:32:43.620 you've used

00:32:45.540 the words,

00:32:46.040 you know,

00:32:46.280 these ideas

00:32:46.920 have become

00:32:47.400 entrenched,

00:32:50.240 and these

00:32:51.140 are not your

00:32:51.600 words,

00:32:51.960 but other

00:32:52.520 people have

00:32:52.920 used them,

00:32:53.300 that the

00:32:53.680 academy is

00:32:54.280 in crisis.

00:32:55.820 Where do

00:32:56.520 you see it?

00:32:57.220 Is the

00:32:57.580 academy in

00:32:58.180 crisis?

00:32:59.240 And I guess

00:32:59.640 the second

00:33:00.080 question is,

00:33:01.080 if it is in

00:33:01.760 crisis,

00:33:02.460 can it be

00:33:03.060 safe?

00:33:03.660 Yes,

00:33:03.980 right.

00:33:04.760 Well,

00:33:05.220 along...

00:33:05.700 Yes,

00:33:05.920 to which

00:33:06.240 of those

00:33:06.520 degrees.

00:33:09.440 I mean,

00:33:09.760 there are

00:33:10.500 crises which

00:33:12.880 can be

00:33:13.680 exaggerated in

00:33:14.560 the sense

00:33:14.880 that probably

00:33:15.480 the majority

00:33:16.040 of what goes

00:33:16.580 on in a

00:33:17.160 university is

00:33:17.880 highly

00:33:18.240 constructive.

00:33:19.480 That is,

00:33:20.140 there are

00:33:20.840 molecular biologists

00:33:22.160 in their

00:33:22.600 labs,

00:33:23.280 and there

00:33:23.700 are scholars

00:33:24.260 in libraries,

00:33:25.280 and there

00:33:25.420 are students

00:33:25.960 writing papers

00:33:27.460 on the concept

00:33:28.200 of free will

00:33:28.960 and sliding 0.96

00:33:30.780 people into

00:33:31.740 brain scanners

00:33:32.460 to figure out

00:33:33.220 how emotion

00:33:34.120 is processed

00:33:34.700 in the brain,

00:33:35.400 and professors

00:33:37.780 teaching kids

00:33:38.980 about Bayes

00:33:39.600 theorem and

00:33:40.240 statistical

00:33:40.740 decision theory.

00:33:42.400 So,

00:33:42.780 none of that

00:33:43.740 generates

00:33:44.160 headlines.

00:33:46.380 So,

00:33:47.020 it would be

00:33:47.240 a mistake

00:33:47.840 to think

00:33:48.520 that universities

00:33:49.700 are just

00:33:50.780 madrasas

00:33:51.620 of hard

00:33:53.780 left

00:33:54.100 indoctrination.

00:33:55.520 There is

00:33:56.200 that,

00:33:56.580 and it

00:33:56.820 really is

00:33:57.240 a problem.

00:33:58.840 Each campus

00:33:59.700 has a small

00:34:00.520 madrasa

00:34:01.420 for work

00:34:01.840 indoctrination,

00:34:02.780 but it's not

00:34:03.740 the entire

00:34:04.260 county.

00:34:04.540 It's not

00:34:04.840 the entire

00:34:05.180 county.

00:34:05.680 There are

00:34:06.140 schools of

00:34:06.560 dentistry,

00:34:07.180 and I don't

00:34:07.380 know how

00:34:07.600 much social

00:34:10.240 justice warfare

00:34:10.920 there is,

00:34:11.780 although maybe

00:34:12.640 it's my own

00:34:13.140 ignorance,

00:34:13.600 because we 0.73

00:34:13.960 do know

00:34:14.220 that medical

00:34:14.640 faculties have

00:34:15.540 been subject

00:34:16.720 to a lot

00:34:17.700 of political

00:34:18.700 indoctrination.

00:34:20.820 But anyway,

00:34:21.700 so it's

00:34:22.940 important to

00:34:23.580 recognize the

00:34:24.780 crisis,

00:34:25.360 not to

00:34:25.800 exaggerate

00:34:26.380 the crisis.

00:34:28.020 Universities

00:34:28.540 ought to

00:34:29.880 be reformed.

00:34:30.560 There is

00:34:30.900 an idea

00:34:32.580 that's

00:34:32.840 sometimes

00:34:33.140 floated that

00:34:33.720 we've just

00:34:34.100 got to

00:34:34.820 write them

00:34:35.780 off and

00:34:36.680 create

00:34:37.840 startups,

00:34:38.940 startup

00:34:39.380 universities,

00:34:40.120 the University

00:34:40.480 of Austin,

00:34:41.200 Rolst of

00:34:41.600 College,

00:34:43.160 Hillsdale

00:34:43.620 College.

00:34:44.620 I think

00:34:44.940 it's good

00:34:45.700 for there

00:34:46.100 to be

00:34:46.380 competition

00:34:47.020 that the

00:34:47.440 legacy

00:34:47.740 universities

00:34:48.340 not have

00:34:48.900 a monopoly.

00:34:50.200 A problem

00:34:50.920 that I have

00:34:51.380 with a lot

00:34:51.680 of these

00:34:51.920 startups is

00:34:52.780 that they

00:34:53.180 forget that

00:34:53.840 to be an

00:34:54.300 educated person

00:34:54.980 in the

00:34:55.220 21st century,

00:34:56.060 you really

00:34:56.380 do need

00:34:56.760 to understand

00:34:57.240 some science.

00:34:58.640 That it

00:34:59.020 just won't

00:34:59.480 do the

00:35:00.360 study.

00:35:01.680 Milton and

00:35:02.440 Keats

00:35:02.840 have

00:35:03.700 Tocqueville

00:35:04.220 and call

00:35:04.700 yourself

00:35:05.040 an educated

00:35:05.520 person.

00:35:06.720 Science

00:35:07.460 education

00:35:08.040 is done

00:35:09.540 by

00:35:09.820 scientists

00:35:10.380 who need

00:35:10.940 labs.

00:35:11.620 Labs are 0.99

00:35:12.160 expensive.

00:35:13.060 They need

00:35:13.440 equipment and

00:35:14.400 space and

00:35:15.000 buildings and

00:35:15.940 administrative

00:35:16.480 structure of

00:35:17.560 human subjects

00:35:18.660 bureaucrats and

00:35:20.220 grant

00:35:20.980 administration

00:35:21.680 bureaucrats.

00:35:22.440 it's unlikely

00:35:24.560 that we're

00:35:24.940 going to

00:35:25.160 replicate all

00:35:26.000 of that

00:35:26.280 infrastructure

00:35:26.980 currently

00:35:27.700 existing at

00:35:28.760 hundreds of

00:35:30.200 universities in

00:35:31.820 small startups.

00:35:33.260 Having a bunch

00:35:33.800 of bright

00:35:34.100 students and

00:35:34.640 having them

00:35:35.020 read 100

00:35:35.920 great books,

00:35:37.320 there's some

00:35:37.760 value in that,

00:35:38.540 but that is,

00:35:39.180 in my view,

00:35:39.700 that doesn't

00:35:40.020 lead to an

00:35:40.440 educated person,

00:35:41.680 even if the

00:35:42.400 origin of

00:35:42.780 species is

00:35:43.340 one of those

00:35:43.720 hundred books.

00:35:44.240 Okay, so

00:35:46.060 universities need

00:35:47.000 to be reformed,

00:35:48.300 but you haven't

00:35:48.820 said whether

00:35:49.200 they can be.

00:35:49.860 I like the

00:35:53.360 idea of

00:35:53.600 I'm doing my

00:35:58.060 part by

00:35:58.720 having co-founded

00:36:01.320 and being a

00:36:02.040 co-president of

00:36:02.720 the Council on

00:36:03.200 Academic Freedom

00:36:03.920 at Harvard.

00:36:05.020 We do

00:36:05.500 certainly have

00:36:06.260 the ear of

00:36:06.880 our top

00:36:07.560 administrators.

00:36:08.880 We have

00:36:09.820 been pushing

00:36:10.420 back against

00:36:11.340 accesses like

00:36:13.360 requiring

00:36:15.440 diversity

00:36:16.140 statements of

00:36:17.300 job applicants,

00:36:18.980 like

00:36:19.260 universities

00:36:20.340 taking

00:36:21.200 positions on

00:36:21.960 the

00:36:22.100 controversies

00:36:22.940 of their

00:36:23.340 day,

00:36:23.840 therefore

00:36:24.120 prejudicing

00:36:24.820 the debates

00:36:25.380 that take

00:36:25.760 place on

00:36:26.480 university

00:36:26.860 campuses,

00:36:28.160 like enforcing

00:36:29.600 policies of

00:36:30.520 nonviolence,

00:36:31.520 not letting

00:36:31.920 campuses be

00:36:32.760 taken over

00:36:33.620 by factions

00:36:34.520 of militant

00:36:35.860 students,

00:36:37.820 and trying

00:36:38.180 to push

00:36:38.500 back against

00:36:39.160 the diversity

00:36:40.300 bureaucracy

00:36:41.140 when their

00:36:42.960 policies are

00:36:44.740 implemented by

00:36:45.900 stealth and

00:36:46.440 never exposed

00:36:47.500 to the light

00:36:47.940 of day,

00:36:48.260 and advocating

00:36:49.180 viewpoint

00:36:49.640 diversity.

00:36:50.200 That is,

00:36:51.340 even though I

00:36:51.860 probably couldn't

00:36:53.460 have affirmative

00:36:54.100 action for

00:36:54.720 conservatives or

00:36:55.660 quotas, but

00:36:57.000 having there be

00:36:57.860 some awareness

00:36:59.460 with some soft

00:37:01.340 pressure from

00:37:02.260 visitive

00:37:03.140 committees,

00:37:03.820 from principal

00:37:04.760 and deans,

00:37:05.620 that, you

00:37:05.960 know, the

00:37:06.360 department should

00:37:07.040 mix it up,

00:37:08.320 promoting these

00:37:09.520 as ideals and

00:37:11.100 looking at

00:37:11.600 mechanisms that

00:37:12.540 might actually

00:37:14.560 change things.

00:37:15.200 I'm not

00:37:16.640 getting a clear

00:37:17.560 sense of

00:37:18.060 confidence from

00:37:18.780 you that it's

00:37:19.280 going to be

00:37:19.660 successful,

00:37:20.360 Am I

00:37:21.040 misreading you

00:37:21.660 yet?

00:37:22.000 It may not.

00:37:23.120 I mean, we've

00:37:23.620 just started,

00:37:24.860 and I think

00:37:25.340 there's been,

00:37:26.180 maybe because

00:37:26.720 there is a

00:37:27.180 sense of

00:37:27.540 crisis, the

00:37:28.240 pushback has

00:37:29.040 just started.

00:37:30.960 I think the,

00:37:31.860 when people ask,

00:37:32.760 what do I think

00:37:33.220 will happen?

00:37:33.840 Have we

00:37:34.080 passed in

00:37:34.720 peak woke,

00:37:35.660 as some people

00:37:37.200 put it, the

00:37:38.560 reason it's hard

00:37:39.060 to tell is that

00:37:39.620 there are two

00:37:40.180 opposing forces,

00:37:42.040 and it's very

00:37:42.640 hard to know

00:37:43.040 which is

00:37:43.320 stronger.

00:37:44.220 On the one

00:37:44.660 hand, once

00:37:45.980 you call

00:37:46.980 attention to

00:37:47.660 the absurdities

00:37:48.580 of the

00:37:49.440 vulnerable forces

00:37:50.440 on campus,

00:37:51.620 the lecturer

00:37:52.940 pushed out

00:37:53.540 because you

00:37:53.960 said that

00:37:54.340 they're biologically

00:37:55.320 there are two

00:37:55.820 sexes.

00:37:56.480 Transfog. 1.00

00:37:58.240 Exactly.

00:37:59.480 The kind of

00:38:00.260 self-evident

00:38:01.160 silliness of a

00:38:02.820 lot of the

00:38:03.520 social justice

00:38:06.460 warfare, and

00:38:09.440 it's called out

00:38:10.340 their academic

00:38:11.360 freedom is on

00:38:12.940 the agenda

00:38:13.420 as something

00:38:14.080 that you can

00:38:14.640 point to.

00:38:15.420 Universities

00:38:15.900 change some

00:38:16.560 of their

00:38:16.800 policies.

00:38:17.860 Presidents

00:38:18.180 are put on

00:38:18.880 notice that

00:38:20.040 they can't

00:38:22.060 just do the

00:38:22.720 easy thing by

00:38:23.920 acquiescing to

00:38:25.360 noisy protesters

00:38:27.300 because now

00:38:28.840 there'll be

00:38:29.320 other voices

00:38:30.740 yelling into

00:38:31.680 the other ear

00:38:32.340 and not letting

00:38:33.040 them take the

00:38:33.560 easy way out.

00:38:35.960 All of these

00:38:36.840 will push back

00:38:37.960 against these

00:38:39.040 forces.

00:38:40.260 On the other

00:38:40.580 hand, pushing

00:38:41.520 for them is

00:38:42.640 the generational

00:38:44.080 gradient.

00:38:45.240 The younger

00:38:45.940 the cohort, the

00:38:47.060 less committed

00:38:47.700 they are to

00:38:48.440 academic freedom,

00:38:50.000 free speech,

00:38:50.900 open inquiry,

00:38:52.000 viewpoint diversity,

00:38:52.880 and so on.

00:38:54.280 Now, will

00:38:55.220 younger, that is

00:38:56.540 in pause of

00:38:58.580 students, and

00:39:00.060 for that matter,

00:39:01.620 lecturers,

00:39:02.460 assistant professors,

00:39:03.360 associate professors,

00:39:04.260 and so on, the

00:39:05.600 younger the

00:39:06.480 cohort, the less

00:39:08.140 likely they are to

00:39:09.080 protect the speech

00:39:10.300 of controversial

00:39:11.160 professors, to

00:39:13.640 endure

00:39:15.620 in use of

00:39:16.420 violence, to

00:39:17.180 shut down a

00:39:18.500 supposedly racist

00:39:19.860 speaker, and so

00:39:21.160 on.

00:39:21.540 The question is,

00:39:21.980 will they take

00:39:23.200 those illiberal

00:39:24.700 attitudes with

00:39:25.520 them as they

00:39:26.260 age, or will

00:39:28.480 they kind of see

00:39:29.540 the light as they

00:39:30.060 get older?

00:39:30.980 Because people

00:39:31.360 don't change

00:39:32.620 their mind as

00:39:33.200 much as people

00:39:33.720 like to pretend.

00:39:34.920 I think that is,

00:39:35.820 unfortunately, I

00:39:36.620 think that is

00:39:37.020 true, that

00:39:37.820 certain political

00:39:38.700 attitudes tend

00:39:39.520 to move with

00:39:40.640 the cohorts rather

00:39:41.580 than be outgrowing.

00:39:43.380 So, on the other

00:39:44.440 hand, it's not

00:39:45.180 a complete

00:39:46.520 utter dominance.

00:39:49.500 There are a lot

00:39:50.160 of students who

00:39:52.220 are sick of being

00:39:53.500 told what they

00:39:54.180 can and can't

00:39:54.780 say, recognize

00:39:56.020 that there is

00:39:56.880 an orthodox

00:39:57.680 seat that

00:39:58.060 sometimes puts

00:39:58.600 an academic

00:39:59.660 to disbandish,

00:40:00.900 including when

00:40:01.940 professors claim

00:40:03.700 to exercise

00:40:04.620 their academic

00:40:05.480 freedom in the

00:40:06.180 classroom, by

00:40:07.180 telling students

00:40:08.240 what they can

00:40:08.840 and can't say.

00:40:10.180 That's a source

00:40:11.100 of rebellion

00:40:11.700 that we hope

00:40:12.720 to tap.

00:40:14.640 And I've

00:40:15.240 encouraged students

00:40:17.300 at Harvard to

00:40:18.460 form their own

00:40:19.700 Association for

00:40:21.040 Academic Freedom,

00:40:22.220 which they have

00:40:22.920 done, Students

00:40:23.540 for Academic

00:40:24.020 Freedom at

00:40:24.560 Harvard, a

00:40:25.020 parallel organization

00:40:26.620 to our Council

00:40:27.480 on Academic

00:40:28.020 Freedom at

00:40:28.600 Harvard.

00:40:29.500 And I hope

00:40:30.720 they'll probably

00:40:31.920 just make it

00:40:32.560 cool to be in

00:40:34.080 favor of free

00:40:34.740 speech, the

00:40:35.320 way it was

00:40:35.820 cool for the

00:40:36.600 boomers in 0.75

00:40:37.280 the 60s and

00:40:38.060 70s.

00:40:39.960 And to, since

00:40:41.560 in any cohort

00:40:42.960 there are the

00:40:43.960 fanatical true

00:40:45.340 believers that

00:40:46.220 probably cannot be

00:40:47.780 convinced, they're

00:40:48.960 the people who

00:40:49.400 go with whatever

00:40:49.980 is cool, they're

00:40:51.040 the people who

00:40:51.640 are, for

00:40:52.080 principal reasons,

00:40:53.060 are in favor of

00:40:53.960 liberal open

00:40:54.980 inquiry, and

00:40:56.680 they're the people

00:40:57.140 who just haven't

00:40:57.880 really thought

00:40:58.540 about one way

00:40:59.120 or another.

00:41:01.440 Explicit

00:41:02.000 efforts to

00:41:02.860 promote free

00:41:04.540 thought, liberal

00:41:05.400 values, could

00:41:06.440 kind of nibble

00:41:07.060 away at the

00:41:07.680 persuadables, at

00:41:08.920 the ones who

00:41:09.380 just never

00:41:09.860 thought about

00:41:10.420 it, even if

00:41:11.000 they can't

00:41:12.160 change the

00:41:13.380 minds of the

00:41:14.280 true believers,

00:41:15.680 that might be

00:41:16.280 unrealistic, but

00:41:17.520 it isn't only

00:41:18.200 true believers.

00:41:19.420 And, you know,

00:41:19.740 new babies are

00:41:20.380 being born all

00:41:21.040 the time and

00:41:21.660 eventually turn

00:41:22.520 18 and their

00:41:24.080 minds are,

00:41:25.400 hopefully, are

00:41:26.140 open.

00:41:26.800 And it's also

00:41:27.340 as well, I

00:41:28.160 mean, one of my

00:41:29.020 cousins who's

00:41:29.620 actually a

00:41:30.000 scientist, he's

00:41:30.560 a geneticist,

00:41:31.860 he, no, he's

00:41:32.640 not, sorry,

00:41:33.060 a virologist, he

00:41:34.280 was at the

00:41:34.880 University of

00:41:35.520 Sussex and he

00:41:36.120 was very

00:41:36.460 progressive, he

00:41:37.160 was very

00:41:37.540 well, pronouns

00:41:38.280 in the bio,

00:41:39.020 pronouns tattooed

00:41:39.800 on your chest, 0.71

00:41:40.300 all that nonsense.

00:41:41.620 And he was

00:41:42.940 walking through

00:41:43.760 the square at

00:41:44.720 Sussex University

00:41:45.740 and he came

00:41:47.300 upon a group

00:41:48.520 of people

00:41:49.220 wearing

00:41:49.980 balaclavas,

00:41:51.560 chanting

00:41:51.920 stock out,

00:41:53.300 and saying all

00:41:54.140 the other types

00:41:55.380 of horrendous

00:41:56.140 things, and he

00:41:57.600 looked at them

00:41:58.480 and he just

00:41:59.540 went, oh,

00:42:00.880 you're not the

00:42:01.580 good guys.

00:42:02.920 And that was

00:42:03.520 just a complete

00:42:06.360 volte-a-farce,

00:42:07.360 as it were,

00:42:08.240 because he was

00:42:09.160 just like,

00:42:10.440 you know,

00:42:10.880 people who are

00:42:11.480 nice and good

00:42:12.260 and caring rarely

00:42:13.160 turn up for a

00:42:14.380 demonstration against

00:42:16.060 a woman in a 0.98

00:42:16.960 balaclava, you

00:42:18.020 know.

00:42:18.420 So I think there's

00:42:19.420 also, there's

00:42:20.460 also had seismic

00:42:22.360 events which

00:42:23.000 change people's

00:42:23.700 minds.

00:42:23.980 Yes, and that

00:42:24.960 is another front

00:42:28.100 in which this

00:42:28.840 effort has to

00:42:30.040 be fought is

00:42:31.020 just the

00:42:31.480 chain of

00:42:32.120 responsibility

00:42:32.820 in a

00:42:33.240 university.

00:42:34.540 If there are

00:42:36.820 autonomous

00:42:37.820 bureaucrats who

00:42:39.880 can implement

00:42:40.820 policies that

00:42:41.780 no one ever

00:42:42.220 gets to

00:42:42.800 debate or

00:42:43.620 evaluate, that

00:42:44.460 no one's

00:42:44.820 responsible for,

00:42:45.700 no one

00:42:45.980 defends, that's

00:42:47.180 a way in

00:42:47.640 which oppression

00:42:48.360 can creep in,

00:42:50.300 the so-called

00:42:50.840 diversity, equity,

00:42:52.040 and inclusion

00:42:52.740 bureaucracy, which

00:42:55.780 I noticed a

00:42:57.380 little bit like

00:42:58.000 Voltaire's

00:42:58.760 comment on the

00:42:59.440 holy Roman

00:43:00.020 empire, which

00:43:00.760 is neither

00:43:01.120 holy nor

00:43:01.680 Roman nor 0.98

00:43:02.200 an empire.

00:43:03.420 This is a

00:43:04.240 bureaucracy that

00:43:05.180 enforces

00:43:05.980 uniformity of

00:43:06.900 opinion,

00:43:08.200 differential

00:43:08.580 treatment on

00:43:09.420 designating

00:43:09.960 victim groups

00:43:10.880 and exclusion

00:43:11.860 of anyone

00:43:12.500 who disagrees.

00:43:13.900 But a lot

00:43:14.580 of their

00:43:15.680 policies just

00:43:16.480 get implemented

00:43:17.180 by default or

00:43:18.140 by stealth.

00:43:19.140 No dean ever

00:43:21.140 announced that

00:43:21.720 that was the

00:43:22.100 policy of the

00:43:22.620 university.

00:43:23.260 It just

00:43:23.740 happens

00:43:24.300 overnight.

00:43:26.380 So, university

00:43:27.160 leaders, the

00:43:28.980 vice-channors,

00:43:29.640 the presidents

00:43:30.840 who are called

00:43:32.340 on to justify

00:43:33.240 policies, who

00:43:34.720 may be held to

00:43:35.440 account by the

00:43:36.800 trustees, the

00:43:37.960 supervisors, the

00:43:38.880 corporations, the

00:43:39.800 fellers, whoever

00:43:40.520 is their boss, and

00:43:42.800 has their back when

00:43:44.060 they stand up for

00:43:45.300 defensible principles

00:43:46.960 of academic freedom,

00:43:48.480 fires them when

00:43:49.520 they don't.

00:43:51.460 And that could

00:43:52.000 only happen if

00:43:53.040 there's more

00:43:53.720 transparency for

00:43:54.840 how they

00:43:55.480 operate.

00:43:57.420 Those are all

00:43:58.620 fronts on which

00:44:00.140 this fight has to

00:44:01.560 be waged as

00:44:02.220 well.

00:44:02.580 Because it seems

00:44:03.280 to me what we're

00:44:03.880 talking about here

00:44:04.920 is, look,

00:44:06.520 there's lots of

00:44:07.880 different factors,

00:44:08.720 don't get me

00:44:09.260 wrong.

00:44:10.620 But what we

00:44:11.740 also seem to be

00:44:12.620 talking about is

00:44:13.960 a lack of

00:44:14.540 backbone, to put it

00:44:15.760 bluntly, within

00:44:16.840 university leaders.

00:44:17.920 Oh, unquestionably.

00:44:20.040 And that's why

00:44:21.040 one of the roles of

00:44:23.080 our council and

00:44:23.660 academic freedom is

00:44:24.980 that we speak into,

00:44:26.700 when activists are

00:44:28.420 yammering into one

00:44:29.760 ear of a

00:44:30.420 under-president,

00:44:31.160 we'll yammer into

00:44:32.020 the other ear.

00:44:33.560 And so they can't

00:44:34.640 just take the easy

00:44:35.340 way out of breaking

00:44:36.440 the noisy

00:44:38.520 protesters call away.

00:44:40.080 You know, we'll be 1.00

00:44:40.760 a pain of the ass 1.00

00:44:41.380 too. 1.00

00:44:41.620 So that's it, yes.

00:44:44.680 And I think you

00:44:45.580 have exposed it.

00:44:46.460 I think there is a

00:44:47.440 problem, although

00:44:48.940 it raises a question

00:44:51.040 being, does the

00:44:53.440 hiring of university

00:44:54.360 presidents and

00:44:55.480 vice-chancellors and

00:44:56.440 so on just select

00:44:57.340 for equal people,

00:44:58.800 or is that just the

00:44:59.480 incentive structure

00:45:00.260 that they face as

00:45:01.140 soon as they occupy

00:45:02.060 that chair?

00:45:03.840 I think it's

00:45:04.960 probably a lot of

00:45:05.940 the latter.

00:45:06.720 And so we've got

00:45:07.220 to change what

00:45:08.960 allows them to

00:45:11.360 get ahead so

00:45:12.700 that it's more

00:45:13.380 closely aligned with

00:45:14.740 the actual

00:45:15.620 principles of the

00:45:16.340 university, like to

00:45:17.560 acquire and

00:45:19.520 transmit knowledge.

00:45:20.960 Stephen, you're

00:45:21.680 one of the most

00:45:22.820 prominent supporters

00:45:24.800 and promoters of

00:45:25.660 enlightenment values.

00:45:27.040 We've talked about

00:45:27.900 that a little bit

00:45:28.480 already.

00:45:28.960 I just spent a few

00:45:29.740 weeks on tour with

00:45:30.480 Jordan Peterson, and

00:45:31.340 he asked me to

00:45:32.080 join him as an

00:45:33.580 agnostic to disagree

00:45:34.740 as much as I could

00:45:35.720 with the things that

00:45:36.520 he's saying on

00:45:37.200 stage.

00:45:37.840 And I want to

00:45:38.380 try and see if we

00:45:39.260 can have a

00:45:40.180 conversation about

00:45:40.780 some of the

00:45:41.140 things that I

00:45:41.340 think he's

00:45:41.740 saying, because

00:45:42.660 I think for

00:45:43.560 whatever reason

00:45:44.180 that conversation

00:45:45.140 has become

00:45:45.580 relevant, and I

00:45:46.260 think it's not

00:45:46.660 accidental.

00:45:47.880 So his argument

00:45:49.020 is, and I

00:45:50.160 think I'm

00:45:50.660 quoting him

00:45:51.240 directly on

00:45:51.820 stage actually

00:45:52.300 at the first

00:45:52.740 show that we

00:45:53.440 did, the

00:45:54.640 enlightenment was

00:45:55.320 wrong, and

00:45:57.560 there's a bunch

00:45:58.900 of things that he

00:45:59.440 would say about

00:45:59.960 that, but one

00:46:00.440 of them would

00:46:00.800 be that Nietzsche

00:46:01.420 correctly predicted

00:46:02.340 what would

00:46:02.740 happen in the

00:46:03.300 20th century with

00:46:04.220 the death of

00:46:04.680 God, who I

00:46:06.520 think it's fair

00:46:07.060 to say was killed

00:46:08.560 by the objective

00:46:09.420 pursuit of truth

00:46:10.440 things that you

00:46:11.680 so admire and

00:46:13.180 practice, and

00:46:16.160 then the things

00:46:16.760 that are happening

00:46:17.200 in the 21st

00:46:18.220 century are a

00:46:19.300 further consequence

00:46:19.980 of the same

00:46:20.600 thing, and we've

00:46:23.220 talked about

00:46:23.700 Doomerism already,

00:46:24.540 but we could also

00:46:25.120 talk about the

00:46:25.820 fact that all

00:46:28.020 over the world,

00:46:28.980 but mostly in the

00:46:30.920 West, we're not

00:46:33.240 reproducing at a

00:46:34.220 sufficient rate to

00:46:34.940 replenish the

00:46:35.440 population, and so on

00:46:37.600 and so forth.

00:46:38.280 Do you, why is

00:46:40.440 she wrong?

00:46:41.280 Oh, well, let's

00:46:42.340 begin at the

00:46:43.980 beginning.

00:46:45.440 Was light better

00:46:46.300 before the

00:46:46.780 enlightenment, and

00:46:47.620 there were worse

00:46:48.600 religions that

00:46:49.400 killed people by

00:46:50.060 the tens of

00:46:50.520 millions, life

00:46:51.340 expectancy was

00:46:52.320 30, land

00:46:53.400 heretics were 1.00

00:46:54.060 burned to

00:46:54.420 the stake, when

00:46:55.640 a third of

00:46:58.300 children in

00:46:59.040 did not live to

00:46:59.600 see their

00:46:59.980 fifth birthday,

00:47:02.020 when there were

00:47:03.540 routine forms of

00:47:06.100 sadistic corporal

00:47:07.420 and capital

00:47:07.920 punishment, like

00:47:08.960 disemboweling and

00:47:10.420 the braking of

00:47:11.500 the wheel, I

00:47:13.420 think that wasn't

00:47:14.220 so great.

00:47:15.440 I think he'd

00:47:15.920 agree with that.

00:47:16.980 I don't think he's

00:47:18.520 saying technological

00:47:19.660 progress and

00:47:20.980 science are wrong.

00:47:21.920 It's not just

00:47:22.280 technological

00:47:22.760 progress.

00:47:24.900 We could still

00:47:26.000 break people on

00:47:27.900 the wheel, we

00:47:28.740 could still keep

00:47:30.480 women in 0.62

00:47:33.040 positions requiring

00:47:35.220 brainpower and

00:47:37.000 autonomy, we

00:47:39.720 could still

00:47:40.280 rescue 0.88

00:47:40.860 homosexuals, we 0.95

00:47:43.680 could still 0.99

00:47:44.180 fight wars of

00:47:44.980 religion.

00:47:46.480 To blame the

00:47:47.260 20th century on,

00:47:49.080 first of all, the

00:47:49.620 death of God

00:47:50.260 assumes that there

00:47:51.660 was a God to 0.70

00:47:52.260 kill in the first 0.97

00:47:52.860 place, so the

00:47:54.240 death of God is

00:47:54.680 highly misleading,

00:47:55.780 it's a very

00:47:56.080 Nietzsche way of

00:47:56.840 putting it, but a

00:47:58.540 secular understanding

00:47:59.920 of morality, that it

00:48:01.280 doesn't come from

00:48:02.300 scripture commandments

00:48:03.760 that tell you to

00:48:04.600 stone adulterers and 0.98

00:48:06.120 commit genocide 1.00

00:48:07.600 against your

00:48:08.200 enemies, but

00:48:09.300 rather from

00:48:10.020 universal human

00:48:11.000 well-being, is a

00:48:12.920 moral advance, and

00:48:14.140 in fact it has

00:48:14.740 led empirically to

00:48:16.860 enter ways of

00:48:19.140 living.

00:48:20.100 Today, it is the

00:48:21.640 most secular

00:48:22.300 countries that are

00:48:23.460 the most pleasant

00:48:24.220 places to live.

00:48:27.120 What question

00:48:28.080 Europe?

00:48:29.440 We have

00:48:29.900 Commonwealth

00:48:30.260 countries of

00:48:31.000 New Zealand and

00:48:31.720 Australia and

00:48:32.620 Canada, and the

00:48:33.580 most religious

00:48:34.200 countries are 0.97

00:48:35.420 hell of us.

00:48:36.900 God hasn't died in

00:48:38.180 Afghanistan, so I'd 0.95

00:48:39.860 rather not live

00:48:40.360 there.

00:48:40.780 No, I accept

00:48:41.820 that.

00:48:42.280 So, that moral

00:48:45.800 framework, where

00:48:47.480 does it come from?

00:48:48.780 Which moral

00:48:49.240 framework?

00:48:49.760 The secular moral

00:48:51.440 framework that you

00:48:52.620 press.

00:48:53.500 How do we know

00:48:54.260 what's good and

00:48:54.820 what's wrong?

00:48:55.840 Oh, by...

00:48:57.080 What's evil, maybe?

00:48:57.980 By finding common

00:48:59.920 ground and applying

00:49:00.660 reason.

00:49:01.200 Namely, I don't

00:49:03.180 want to be burned

00:49:05.080 to death or 0.99

00:49:05.600 tortured or 0.99

00:49:06.220 stormed to death

00:49:06.900 or kept

00:49:07.380 figurines or

00:49:08.560 enslaved.

00:49:10.880 I want to...

00:49:12.840 I'm not the only

00:49:15.600 person on the

00:49:16.940 planet.

00:49:17.400 I have to live

00:49:17.860 with other people.

00:49:18.680 We have to have

00:49:19.240 clothes that we

00:49:20.000 live by.

00:49:21.000 Given that these

00:49:21.900 are my interests,

00:49:24.440 I can't deny them

00:49:26.080 to you if I want

00:49:27.260 you to take me

00:49:27.840 seriously enough.

00:49:28.640 I want to come to

00:49:29.140 an agreement with

00:49:30.000 you on how we

00:49:30.820 ought to live our

00:49:31.400 lives.

00:49:32.360 Namely, if you

00:49:33.800 don't privilege

00:49:34.960 your own interests,

00:49:36.560 as soon as you

00:49:37.120 acknowledge that

00:49:38.160 our perspectives

00:49:39.380 are interchangeable,

00:49:40.840 then you have a

00:49:41.580 basis for morality.

00:49:43.220 You've got the

00:49:43.620 golden rule.

00:49:44.680 You've got the 0.99

00:49:45.420 fail of ignorance. 0.99

00:49:46.760 You've got the

00:49:47.100 greatest pledge for

00:49:47.780 the greatest number.

00:49:48.700 You've got universal

00:49:49.580 making...

00:49:50.540 Universalizing the

00:49:51.720 maximum of your

00:49:52.340 actions.

00:49:53.080 There are different

00:49:53.360 ways of formulating

00:49:54.360 it that will all

00:49:55.040 come down to not

00:49:56.600 privileging your

00:49:57.820 interests over

00:49:58.880 everyone else's.

00:50:00.560 That's the basis

00:50:01.120 of democracy.

00:50:02.500 All men are 1.00

00:50:03.380 created equaled,

00:50:04.500 and that was

00:50:07.120 self-evident

00:50:07.780 right to life,

00:50:09.680 liberty,

00:50:10.100 with astute

00:50:10.740 happiness in

00:50:11.500 order to achieve

00:50:12.420 those goals.

00:50:14.300 Institutions are

00:50:15.020 formed by the

00:50:16.360 consent of the

00:50:16.920 governed, so you

00:50:17.980 can reason your

00:50:18.820 way to a

00:50:19.980 meaningful and

00:50:21.880 a beneficial

00:50:22.540 society.

00:50:23.760 everything can't

00:50:24.980 if you are

00:50:25.880 imposing your

00:50:26.920 Old Testament

00:50:27.600 morality, if you

00:50:29.880 vest absolute

00:50:31.340 power in a

00:50:32.960 divider.

00:50:33.940 Let's pause.

00:50:35.400 So we've had a

00:50:36.380 small technical

00:50:37.220 issue, which is

00:50:38.320 that woke

00:50:38.820 students have

00:50:39.620 come in and

00:50:40.120 turned all the

00:50:40.680 lights off, as

00:50:41.180 you can see.

00:50:41.700 I mean, that

00:50:41.940 isn't really what

00:50:42.460 happened, if

00:50:42.880 you're watching.

00:50:43.740 We just had some

00:50:44.460 technical issues

00:50:45.340 here.

00:50:45.740 We were in the

00:50:46.300 middle of debating

00:50:47.340 the Enlightenment.

00:50:49.820 I don't know

00:50:51.140 exactly where we

00:50:52.140 were.

00:50:52.380 Do you remember?

00:50:53.040 I don't remember

00:50:54.120 the sentence in

00:50:55.020 which we were

00:50:55.660 cut off, but I

00:50:57.040 do remember

00:50:58.380 saying that we

00:51:00.560 should not miss

00:51:01.260 the era before

00:51:01.920 the Enlightenment.

00:51:02.680 That's when

00:51:03.100 life expectancy

00:51:03.800 was 30, and a

00:51:04.800 third of babies

00:51:05.340 died before

00:51:05.920 childbirth, and 0.64

00:51:07.500 heretics were 1.00

00:51:08.920 burned alive, and 0.93

00:51:10.840 criminal punishment

00:51:11.800 consists of

00:51:12.440 disembowelment.

00:51:13.480 So we should not

00:51:14.940 miss it.

00:51:15.640 Moreover, the

00:51:16.740 best places to be

00:51:17.760 alive today are

00:51:18.680 the least religious,

00:51:19.820 such as northern

00:51:20.880 and western Europe

00:51:21.760 and the former

00:51:22.760 commonwealth

00:51:23.240 countries, and

00:51:24.360 the worst places

00:51:25.220 are where 0.97

00:51:26.140 religion is 0.76

00:51:27.060 dominant.

00:51:27.340 That's exactly

00:51:27.920 right.

00:51:28.240 You were

00:51:28.460 slagging off

00:51:28.980 Afghanistan.

00:51:30.920 Basically, what

00:51:31.640 was God.

00:51:32.440 I want six

00:51:33.020 Taliban viewers

00:51:33.740 now, so let's

00:51:34.480 go.

00:51:34.840 How do you know

00:51:37.280 it's only six?

00:51:37.980 Do it.

00:51:39.140 But I guess the

00:51:39.960 question is, and

00:51:41.460 maybe it's an

00:51:42.120 unrelated question,

00:51:42.920 I don't know.

00:51:43.480 how do you

00:51:44.860 explain the

00:51:46.240 fact that much

00:51:47.000 of the world is

00:51:47.900 failing to

00:51:48.740 reproduce? 0.95

00:51:50.360 Oh, women 1.00

00:51:53.620 have more

00:51:54.320 options, and

00:51:55.880 so when they

00:51:57.500 weigh the

00:51:58.020 choice between

00:51:58.680 staying home and

00:51:59.780 pumping out and

00:52:01.480 nursing babies as

00:52:03.580 opposed to being

00:52:04.680 out in the world

00:52:05.240 and having a

00:52:06.340 career and doing

00:52:07.060 stuff, they'll

00:52:08.220 delay childbirth.

00:52:09.540 There's a strong

00:52:10.300 negative correlation

00:52:11.320 between fertility and 0.81

00:52:12.720 women's empowerment.

00:52:14.260 Probably, there's

00:52:15.100 also more

00:52:15.800 distractions in

00:52:16.620 life.

00:52:17.560 People are

00:52:18.360 scrolling their

00:52:20.020 social media feeds

00:52:20.820 instead of having

00:52:21.440 sex.

00:52:22.700 It's more 0.98

00:52:23.100 expensive to

00:52:24.100 bring up and

00:52:26.140 raise a child.

00:52:27.440 Contraception is

00:52:28.180 more available.

00:52:30.100 So probably a

00:52:30.520 lot of things are

00:52:31.340 converging, but

00:52:31.920 there's a strong

00:52:33.140 demographic shift

00:52:37.760 that as

00:52:38.600 countries become

00:52:40.460 more affluent,

00:52:41.760 more educated,

00:52:42.420 and more

00:52:42.920 gender egalitarian,

00:52:44.300 their birth rates

00:52:45.440 go down.

00:52:46.680 And I suppose

00:52:47.720 this brings us all

00:52:48.960 the way back to the

00:52:49.540 very beginning of our

00:52:50.280 conversation about what

00:52:51.460 people talk about when

00:52:52.420 they talk about the

00:52:53.020 crisis of meaning,

00:52:53.700 because you're a

00:52:54.440 parent?

00:52:55.200 I'm not a parent, so

00:52:56.380 I'm part of the

00:52:57.140 culprits.

00:52:57.600 I'm a culprits, yes.

00:52:59.020 I'm the problem.

00:53:00.340 As a parent, this is a

00:53:02.380 very annoying thing that

00:53:03.480 parents always say, but

00:53:04.600 as someone who recently

00:53:05.480 became a parent, I can

00:53:06.460 tell you...

00:53:07.000 Muzzletop. 0.99

00:53:07.680 Thank you very much.

00:53:08.580 It is something that

00:53:10.820 changes the way you

00:53:11.540 see the world, and it

00:53:12.520 is something that gives

00:53:13.440 meaning and purpose.

00:53:14.540 Do you think that it's

00:53:15.200 possible that the

00:53:16.340 technological progress

00:53:17.640 that we are so excited

00:53:18.760 about, including the

00:53:20.520 contraceptive pill and

00:53:21.780 all sorts of other

00:53:22.740 things, in Louis Perry's

00:53:23.840 book, The Case

00:53:24.400 Against the Sexual

00:53:25.020 Revolution, details much

00:53:27.160 of this, the crisis of

00:53:29.580 meaning and purpose that

00:53:30.320 people at least talk

00:53:31.120 about, whether you

00:53:31.640 accept it or not, is

00:53:32.440 partly because we know

00:53:34.040 that the reproduction

00:53:35.300 issue is caused not by

00:53:37.400 women having fewer 1.00

00:53:38.480 children, but by fewer

00:53:39.980 women becoming mothers.

00:53:41.900 So we have a society in

00:53:44.060 which fewer men and fewer

00:53:45.580 women are becoming 1.00

00:53:46.420 parents, and therefore

00:53:47.880 that source of meaning

00:53:49.240 and purpose that was

00:53:50.440 readily available to all

00:53:51.600 our ancestors is no

00:53:52.640 longer there.

00:53:53.820 Yeah, I think that is

00:53:54.620 part of the, certainly

00:53:55.780 part of the lowliness

00:53:57.120 epidemic, why, when

00:53:59.320 there are more means of

00:54:00.820 connecting with people

00:54:01.540 than ever, are more

00:54:02.640 people lowly, and it's

00:54:03.480 because they have

00:54:03.860 fewer relatives, they

00:54:04.800 have fewer siblings,

00:54:05.620 they have fewer aunts and

00:54:06.400 uncles, they have fewer

00:54:07.140 nieces and nephews.

00:54:09.500 I think in past

00:54:11.040 generations, lowliness

00:54:12.140 wasn't the problem, it

00:54:13.080 was busybody relatives

00:54:14.340 talking all too much

00:54:15.540 about your life, and

00:54:16.240 they're not leaving you

00:54:17.420 alone.

00:54:19.200 But yeah, I think

00:54:19.660 there's also, in Gen

00:54:23.040 Z, there is a certain

00:54:24.500 little dread about bringing

00:54:25.780 children into the world

00:54:26.860 under the fear that we'll

00:54:28.780 all go extinct by 2050

00:54:30.360 because of runaway

00:54:31.400 climate change.

00:54:32.140 not unlike the fear

00:54:34.640 that the boomers had 0.91

00:54:35.840 that we shouldn't bring

00:54:36.920 children into the world

00:54:37.680 because it's inevitable

00:54:38.400 there'll be a nuclear

00:54:39.580 arm again, where the

00:54:41.020 Soviets and the 0.97

00:54:42.100 Americans fight it out 0.99

00:54:44.020 with ICBMs.

00:54:46.080 And I think that is

00:54:47.120 unfortunate because I

00:54:48.320 agree that even not

00:54:50.220 having children of my

00:54:50.960 own, but having

00:54:51.640 grandchildren, having

00:54:52.680 nieces and nephews,

00:54:53.700 that perpetuating life is

00:54:55.540 one of the things that

00:54:56.320 gives life meaning, and it

00:54:57.760 is a tragedy if people

00:54:59.020 are deprived of that.

00:55:01.280 Although, you can still

00:55:03.880 find meaning and purpose

00:55:05.120 with one or two children

00:55:06.720 as opposed to five or

00:55:07.860 six.

00:55:08.800 So, it needn't be that

00:55:11.020 everyone have the

00:55:12.880 broods that characterize

00:55:14.900 the baby boomers' 0.99

00:55:17.980 generation or the 19th

00:55:19.280 century.

00:55:19.680 Oh, but this is what I'm

00:55:20.240 saying.

00:55:20.560 Women aren't having 1.00

00:55:21.400 fewer kids.

00:55:22.880 Well, they must be having

00:55:23.660 fewer children, too.

00:55:24.380 You don't have, there are

00:55:25.540 far fewer broods of three

00:55:27.940 or four kids than there

00:55:28.840 were in the past.

00:55:30.120 No.

00:55:30.940 On average, from what I

00:55:32.160 understand, and maybe I'm

00:55:33.640 wrong, is the decline in

00:55:37.000 reproduction is driven

00:55:38.200 almost exclusively by fewer

00:55:40.080 women becoming mothers.

00:55:42.100 I mean, that would imply

00:55:43.040 that the ones who are

00:55:44.240 having three, are having

00:55:47.120 the 2.3 children of the

00:55:50.140 50s, and that seems

00:55:52.420 unlikely.

00:55:52.700 But nonetheless, I'm not

00:55:54.260 disputing the fact that

00:55:55.320 there are more women not 0.84

00:55:57.200 having any children, which

00:55:58.820 can lead to even deeper

00:56:01.380 tragedies down the line as

00:56:03.100 they age and don't have

00:56:05.360 the children who will take

00:56:07.380 care of them or pick them 0.91

00:56:08.280 up when they fall or make

00:56:09.500 arrangements for them to go

00:56:10.520 into assisted living or all

00:56:11.720 the things that people do

00:56:12.640 for their parents, or even

00:56:14.080 call them up every day to

00:56:15.260 see how they're doing.

00:56:16.380 I actually do worry about

00:56:17.520 that among my peers, the

00:56:19.640 women who do not have 0.99

00:56:20.620 children, who could be

00:56:22.560 facing a very lowly

00:56:23.920 admissible old age.

00:56:26.480 Stephen, it's been an

00:56:27.940 absolute pleasure.

00:56:28.920 Thank you so much for

00:56:30.180 coming on the show.

00:56:31.160 Thank you for having me.

00:56:32.160 Yes, and for putting up

00:56:34.400 with the technical

00:56:34.960 difficulties.

00:56:36.120 The final question that we

00:56:38.140 end all of our interviews

00:56:39.040 is always the same.

00:56:39.980 It's, what's the one thing

00:56:41.120 we're not talking about as a

00:56:42.720 society that we really

00:56:44.120 should be?

00:56:44.600 one thing.

00:56:47.200 It's the kind of question

00:56:48.320 that if I had it in advance,

00:56:50.220 I probably could have come

00:56:51.100 up with something clever,

00:56:52.140 but on the spot.

00:56:52.980 What is the one thing?

00:56:54.520 In fairness, we did tell him

00:56:55.600 about it two hours ago.

00:56:56.500 Yeah, exactly.

00:56:58.340 Exactly.

00:56:59.460 So you're, you're taking

00:57:00.320 away my excuse as, uh,

00:57:02.460 all right, one thing.

00:57:04.200 We've got to go off piste

00:57:05.420 and just say something.

00:57:07.080 Um, that we're not even

00:57:10.540 talking about.

00:57:11.600 I'm talking about enough.

00:57:12.800 Yeah, nothing like, I,

00:57:14.300 I would say a new generation

00:57:16.300 of nuclear power as a

00:57:18.940 solution to the climate

00:57:19.860 crisis.

00:57:20.800 The reason being that,

00:57:22.380 and there is some talk

00:57:24.140 about that.

00:57:24.700 Oliver Stone had a feature

00:57:26.360 film called Nuclear Now,

00:57:27.660 which as far as I know,

00:57:28.500 no one has seen, even

00:57:29.300 though it was an Oliver

00:57:29.900 Stone film.

00:57:30.680 He's one of the few.

00:57:32.180 But if you do the math,

00:57:33.720 there is no way that we're

00:57:34.740 willing to get out of the,

00:57:35.880 um, climate crisis.

00:57:37.080 Without a massive expansion

00:57:38.920 of carbon-free energy of

00:57:41.200 which, reliable 24-7

00:57:43.360 carbon-free energy of

00:57:45.040 which, uh, nuclear is

00:57:46.560 the only, um, conceivable

00:57:49.400 source.

00:57:50.140 But there isn't enough talk

00:57:51.780 in any of the, um, circles

00:57:54.380 of people concerned about

00:57:55.240 flag of change about how

00:57:56.420 to provide, uh, the, the

00:57:58.300 needs not only of our

00:58:00.060 society if we try to reduce

00:58:01.840 the amount of combustion

00:58:03.060 of, of, uh, fossil fuels,

00:58:04.620 but the growth in Indonesia

00:58:06.760 and China and India

00:58:07.980 and Bangladesh

00:58:08.660 and, and, and Africa.

00:58:10.720 The increased demand

00:58:12.280 here for nothing else

00:58:13.520 for mining Bitcoin

00:58:15.780 and trading the AI models.

00:58:18.040 But human appetite for

00:58:20.140 energy is insatiable.

00:58:22.100 It ought to be because

00:58:23.220 energy is the only one

00:58:24.400 we can push back

00:58:25.680 against entropy, the,

00:58:26.880 the, the force that

00:58:27.840 makes everything run

00:58:28.940 downhill and can fall

00:58:30.440 apart.

00:58:30.740 So it's part of human

00:58:32.200 betterment that we have

00:58:33.160 a lot of energy to

00:58:34.060 capture.

00:58:34.840 We're going to need more,

00:58:35.920 uh, if we have to do

00:58:37.800 with less from burning

00:58:39.440 fossil fuels, we'll have

00:58:40.520 to discover new sources

00:58:41.860 of which nuclear is the

00:58:43.560 only plausible.

00:58:45.080 Steven Pinkett, thank you

00:58:46.600 very much.

00:58:47.220 Head on over to Locals

00:58:48.160 right now, uh, where we

00:58:49.560 will ask Steven your

00:58:50.720 questions.

00:58:51.260 As someone who values the

00:58:54.620 importance of data and

00:58:55.860 rational argument, and

00:58:57.720 Steven been convinced to

00:58:59.460 change his mind on any

00:59:01.980 hotly debated issues.

TRIGGERnometry - July 24, 2024

Is This the Death of Harvard？ - Steven Pinker

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