TRIGGERnometry - Islam and the West - Ed Husain

00:00:00.240 Hey Francis, do you like books?

00:00:02.600 Only when they have pictures.

00:00:04.200 All the waterproof ones I can take in the bath with me.

00:00:07.080 Alright, well, for those of you who can read

00:00:09.220 and enjoy reading satire in particular,

00:00:11.600 we have just the book for you.

00:00:13.660 What satire? 1.00

00:00:14.500 Shut up. 0.99

00:00:15.200 The book is called Woke Fragility. 0.99

00:00:17.020 It's a brilliantly funny takedown of Robin DiAngelo's

00:00:19.800 white fragility and woke culture more generally.

00:00:23.080 It will keep you amused through the small wee hours

00:00:25.600 as civilization collapses all around you.

00:00:27.940 It's satire as it's meant to be, allowing you to laugh at things the powers that be have now deemed off-limits.

00:00:34.880 We all know that comedy now is more toothless than Joe Biden after he's removed his dentures.

00:00:40.360 This is what you need to hit the funny bone in these demented times, and it's received an average of 4.4 stars on Amazon.

00:00:48.100 If you've already read Woke Fragility, then Tired Moderator also has two other books out,

00:00:52.620 The Little Book of Woke Jokes and Scary Stories to Tell the Woke in the Dark.

00:00:56.720 a woke parody of scary stories to tell in the dark.

00:01:00.120 I'll read that book.

00:01:01.200 Which one?

00:01:01.940 The little one.

00:01:03.400 Find his books on Amazon and enjoy a satirical book that's funny and playful.

00:01:08.360 You must know, as someone who used to work in politics,

00:01:11.660 how toxic what you've just said is.

00:01:13.920 Yeah, but someone's got to say it.

00:01:22.700 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:25.180 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:26.720 I'm Konstantin Kissin.

00:01:28.060 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:33.620 Our brilliant guest today is the author of Among the Mosques, Professor Ed Hussein.

00:01:37.500 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:38.500 Thank you for having me.

00:01:39.340 It's a great pleasure to have you.

00:01:40.660 We've had a bit of a chat before the interview started, and I can already feel this is going

00:01:44.020 to be a really interesting and important conversation.

00:01:46.800 Before we get into it, though, tell everybody a little bit about who you are, how are you

00:01:51.900 where you are?

00:01:52.520 I've messed up that question twice now.

00:01:54.140 and what has been your journey through life

00:01:56.420 that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:01:58.420 My journey started here in London.

00:02:00.300 I was born here to parents

00:02:02.940 who came from two different countries,

00:02:04.960 one from Arabia, another that was then British India.

00:02:08.460 They came here in the 1950s.

00:02:10.100 So family's been here for decades,

00:02:12.200 but I migrated to the United States of America

00:02:15.060 where I teach at Georgetown University.

00:02:17.380 But I'm British, I'm proud of my country,

00:02:19.260 I love my country and therefore I come back often

00:02:21.240 and I keep a close eye on all things here.

00:02:23.660 I went to school in East London.

00:02:26.680 I then went and studied history and Middle Eastern studies

00:02:32.160 at the School of Oriental and African Studies.

00:02:34.960 During my early years, I got caught up in what's today described as extremism.

00:02:40.680 I think an older generation came to political maturity through communism.

00:02:44.960 My generation of young Muslims growing up in this country

00:02:48.000 came to political maturity through what we call Islamism, 0.80

00:02:50.820 You know, the politicization, I think, the bastardization of a faith, you know, making it all politicized and making it all confrontational.

00:03:01.600 So I was involved with a range of organizations, you know, Hamas, which is now banned, which was then allowed. 0.99

00:03:07.540 I was involved with those guys as well as Hizb al-Tahriya, the Muslim Brotherhood and others.

00:03:12.120 I saw the light very quickly. I saw how shallow they were.

00:03:14.820 I left them and I then went and studied Arabic and Sharia in the Middle East, in Syria and Saudi Arabia.

00:03:20.820 The 7th of July, 2005, bombings happened.

00:03:23.120 My sister missed one of the bombs by about four minutes

00:03:25.560 and it was too close to home.

00:03:26.880 I came back to Britain and I wrote a book called Islamist.

00:03:31.100 That did very well.

00:03:32.960 And then I helped set up a think tank

00:03:35.040 and then I moved to America, the Council on Foreign Relations

00:03:37.820 at the height of the Arab Spring,

00:03:39.060 got involved in some of the governments there

00:03:42.300 and advising on how best to govern

00:03:45.260 but also some of the mistakes that the Islamist organisations were making,

00:03:48.640 particularly the Muslim Brotherhood.

00:03:49.680 and then I came back to Britain because Tony Blair and I had a certain rapport in approaching

00:03:56.480 counter-terrorism and approaching the way in which the Middle East ought to be governed

00:04:00.240 and then I started reading more of Roger Scruton's works and I did a PhD under Sir Roger Scruton

00:04:08.140 God rest his soul and I benefited immensely from his knowledge and the way in which he saw the

00:04:12.780 world and then I returned to America and I'm there now but I come here too so that's the

00:04:19.320 long and short of it and we're delighted to have you and what what an interesting intellectual

00:04:23.020 journey that that that is you know being radicalized somewhat and then not and then

00:04:28.940 Tony Blair and Roger Scruton very different people and to be influenced by both I suppose

00:04:33.860 look before we get into the book let's just we've talked about this before and I think most of our

00:04:39.500 audience understand the difference between Muslims and Islamist and all of that but

00:04:43.100 since we're having this conversation with you fresh can you just explain to people because I

00:04:48.260 think a lot of ordinary people who don't have the time or the inclination, frankly, to get into all

00:04:53.100 of this deeply, sometimes there can be conflation or misunderstanding. So can you just separate this

00:04:58.960 out for us so that we start from a good place? I think the best analogy, Constantine, is to look

00:05:05.460 at China. The average Chinese person is not evil. They're culturally Chinese. They have

00:05:12.580 cultural traits and they're good human beings, as most human beings are. But then you have the

00:05:18.240 Chinese Communist Party that is evil, that has a worldview, that's confrontational, that wants to 1.00

00:05:23.540 dominate the rest of the world. Similarly with most Muslims, they're like every other human being. 0.98

00:05:29.500 Their faith is cultural, they turn to God, they have a certain worldview. But among the ordinary

00:05:35.420 Muslims, you have this politicized beast called Islamism that is set up to derail the West, 1.00

00:05:43.060 that believes in destroying the state of Israel, 1.00

00:05:45.800 that undermines women's equality, 1.00

00:05:48.560 that hates gay people 1.00

00:05:49.700 and wants to destroy every nation state 1.00

00:05:52.240 in order to create a great super-Islamist caliphate. 0.96

00:05:57.140 And that's Islamism, distinct from Islam, the faith. 0.98

00:06:00.200 Now, Islam as a faith has many manifestations.

00:06:02.300 I mean, the way I see it is a continuation

00:06:04.160 of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

00:06:07.680 You know, most Muslims believe,

00:06:09.160 in fact, all Muslims believe in the Jewish prophets,

00:06:12.100 the Hebrew prophets and they believe in Jesus the Messiah which distinguishes us from our 1.00

00:06:16.980 Jewish friends but they also don't think that Jesus was crucified and they think the prophet

00:06:22.560 and that we believe the prophet Muhammad was also divinely inspired and the Quran is a

00:06:26.440 is a poetic testament to that so that's the ordinary Muslim and I think anyone's who's

00:06:32.260 met most Muslims or been to a Muslim country will know that Muslims are like anyone else and

00:06:37.420 hospitable and kind and all those traits but islamism much like chinese communism is the 1.00

00:06:43.440 threat that produces terrorism and that i think is a simple distinction ed the one thing that

00:06:50.660 leaves me baffled is uh i i i kind of understand why if you grew up in certain countries in the

00:06:57.480 middle east like my grandfather was originally from lebanon why you might be radicalized right

00:07:02.440 particularly you know when you see the history of that area what i don't understand are young

00:07:08.460 lads growing up in london or manchester growing up in the west and then buying into this philosophy

00:07:15.700 yeah great question francis i don't blame the young lad i blame the rest of us for not having

00:07:20.840 the confidence to say to the young lad come on board this is britain this is how we live here

00:07:26.780 these are our rules you sign up to them and you are now a roman citizen that's how it used to be 0.97

00:07:31.960 for the ancient romans you signed up to roman values spqr the senate and the people of rome

00:07:35.960 and you became a roman citizen and the whole world was your oyster and you had the protection of rome 0.89

00:07:40.140 and we don't have that confidence we're busy self-flagellating ourselves for historical

00:07:46.200 mistakes or otherwise rather than saying britain's one of the greatest countries in the world that i

00:07:50.780 mean i could go and live in china by the way for 50 years i've never become chinese but you can

00:07:55.600 come here and sign up to british and broader western values of reason individualism gender

00:08:00.560 equality and open society and this is unique here and it's racial equality and you're British

00:08:05.260 welcome on board but if you then want to support terrorism or organizations that want to undo

00:08:10.800 the thousand-year-old settlement we have here from you know 1066 to Magna Carta to where we

00:08:17.220 are today then you don't belong here you know you belong somewhere else we don't have the confidence

00:08:21.520 to say that so we've left people alone and I think the focus on just oh if you if you speak

00:08:26.120 english you're fine well no that's not good enough uh you know that's just uh the bar is too low

00:08:31.360 so the the battle of ideas is what's got to be won in other words if you come here

00:08:36.140 these are the ideas you sign up for you then get citizenship in exchange for that and you love and

00:08:42.440 you're a patriotic person belonging to this country or this part of the world the americans

00:08:46.460 do that generally better than we do um but but for as long as we don't do that it's easy i think for

00:08:52.600 teenagers and others to get sucked in by whether it's communists, Islamists or others. So if there

00:09:00.600 has to be a rethinking and not blame shifting, but recalibrating, it's on the rest of us who

00:09:06.560 don't share that extreme ideology to be proud of who we are as a people and as a nation and as an

00:09:11.720 island and what we've done for the rest of the world. Which brings us neatly onto your book

00:09:15.700 Among the Mosques, in which you went out and you went into mosques around the country and you spoke

00:09:21.420 to people and you ask questions. What did you find? I found lots of good things that surprised

00:09:28.300 me. And I think those things ought to be mentioned, you know, in a mosque in Edinburgh to see a gay 1.00

00:09:33.700 couple sat in a mosque kitchen. You know, that really shocked me. To go into Birmingham and see 1.00

00:09:39.440 a lady working in a clinic for gay people, that surprised me. To meet young kids in a madrasa in

00:09:46.360 Dewsbury who are playing with Jewish kids. I mention that because we judge a society and its 1.00

00:09:50.180 strength by how it treats its minorities and i think the ultimate test is how we treat our 0.60

00:09:54.560 jewish cousins and forebears and how we treat people who have a different lifestyle to us in

00:09:59.300 the private sphere i.e homosexuality by those two tests you know i was surprised and i was it was

00:10:06.220 genuinely heartwarming i didn't expect that why not because i thought the perception of people

00:10:12.600 who are religiously pious was conservative right as in they would not be open to the other but they

00:10:19.160 were and that's positive and that's cause for hope that we can continue to maintain a pluralist

00:10:24.000 free open Britain and open society um by open society I don't mean George Soros

00:10:32.600 I mean I mean Karl Popper I mean you're hardly a Jewish shill here I mean I mean Karl Popper who

00:10:39.920 went to New Zealand who loved England for his openness for standing up against the Nazis yeah

00:10:44.680 I don't mean George Soros, sorry, I should clarify.

00:10:47.920 The language has become very difficult on every issue, hasn't it?

00:10:50.820 I know, you say something, people think you mean something else.

00:10:52.720 So you were pleasantly surprised by some of these things.

00:10:55.340 Are we going to talk about the Great Reset or not?

00:10:58.740 No.

00:11:00.960 So to Constantine's question,

00:11:04.420 but what surprised me was the following things.

00:11:07.260 I often go to synagogues, I also go to churches,

00:11:10.420 in the spirit of the Abrahamic faiths that we've all inherited,

00:11:14.420 that have produced these great civilizations.

00:11:16.740 And I hear prayers for Her Majesty the Queen

00:11:19.640 or in the US, for the country, for the president.

00:11:22.620 But I don't hear those prayers in mosques in Britain.

00:11:25.580 And that worries me.

00:11:26.420 There's a disconnect that the monarchy

00:11:29.160 and everything else is somewhere out there.

00:11:31.260 We are an insular, different setting.

00:11:35.420 So the lack of patriotism,

00:11:38.480 public open patriotism worries me.

00:11:40.440 The second thing that worried me

00:11:41.640 was a focus on a different legal system.

00:11:43.920 So in some mosques, there's an attempt to impose sharia law

00:11:47.780 in personal elements of people's lives.

00:11:50.780 My fear is it always starts like that.

00:11:52.680 You have a different legal system for divorce, for inheritance,

00:11:57.480 and for matters of how you raise children.

00:12:02.240 Ed, I'm going to stop you there. How does that work?

00:12:04.380 So if somebody's getting divorced or if there's some kind of altercation

00:12:09.160 or a perceived injustice has taken place, how does that work?

00:12:13.020 with the sharia law well if i was if i was a woman a muslim woman let's say in you know loughborough

00:12:19.460 keithley dewsbury bradford i wouldn't be able to just readily get a divorce i would need my husband

00:12:25.980 to issue a divorce for me and in the absence of doing that i would need to go to an imam in the

00:12:30.920 court who would then arbitrate on the behalf on behalf of both couples and then the imam would

00:12:35.860 issue a divorce on behalf of the man or say to me that i'm not deserving of a divorce for example

00:12:42.020 if my grounds were that I've been beaten up and I don't want to sustain a relationship in which

00:12:47.300 there's physical violence, that the imam would rule that it's prescribed in scripture that the

00:12:52.580 man has the right to beat a Muslim woman and therefore the divorce won't be granted. My point 1.00

00:12:57.740 is why should British women be subject to any imam, foreign or otherwise, telling them their

00:13:05.160 legal rights that are theirs by birth? In other words, it's their decision when they get divorced. 0.99

00:13:09.980 it's a british court that decides whether they get divorced or not and those decisions are not

00:13:14.460 made in a mosque or any other place so there are there's a parallel legal system in operation here

00:13:19.840 and it's growing and it's a real threat because it plays on the identity of a muslim woman is

00:13:25.760 she muslim or is she british she's british her being muslim is is her faith and her relationship

00:13:32.580 with God, if we break that contract of having one law for one nation, we are opening up

00:13:39.440 conflicts for the future in which, and this is how it started in India and Pakistan,

00:13:46.260 this is how it started in parts of Lebanon, this is how it started in parts of Bosnia,

00:13:50.600 that you can't maintain one rule for one nation, so then nations start to break away.

00:13:56.480 I'm not saying this happens today or tomorrow, we've got to take a long-range view on these

00:14:00.440 things and not make the mistake of so the sharia law was one um a third was gender segregation you

00:14:07.160 know we talk about apartheid but the gender apartheid is a real factor in many of the mosques

00:14:11.460 women were not allowed to enter in many of the mosques these are mosques you know in Dewsbury

00:14:16.000 Bradford and many of the mosques in which women were put in these tiny little cupboards at the 1.00

00:14:21.700 top to pray so the gender segregation factor is real um and I think the fourth factor and perhaps

00:14:27.080 the most worrying factor is many of the imams, with all respect to them, are not trained to 1.00

00:14:32.300 understand a post-enlightenment, post-industrial, modern Britain. You know, they're still rehashing

00:14:39.500 scripture from the 1840s in India, the Dilbandi movement. It's the same movement that spurned 0.91

00:14:44.660 the Taliban on one side, but to be fair, they also have a secular movement in India. So we've

00:14:49.420 got the more extreme version. So those three indicators are real problems for, so right now

00:14:55.440 we have 2 000 mosques we have about 4 million muslims now amplify that in the coming years

00:15:01.380 let's assume the number of muslims increase in and of in and of itself is that's not a problem

00:15:05.880 but if we have this kind of politicized separatist form of religious identity then i think it's a

00:15:11.320 real problem because you will see the political map changing you will see constituencies and

00:15:16.920 and politicians you know trying to garner votes with a certain type of messaging that leads to

00:15:24.520 a more separatist, more Islamist, worrying Britain.

00:15:29.120 Now, people may say, well, I'm being alarmist.

00:15:31.320 Well, I say to you, just two weeks ago,

00:15:33.460 you had a guy from Blackburn getting on a plane

00:15:35.220 and going all the way down to Texas,

00:15:37.740 holding a synagogue hostage.

00:15:39.360 That's from Blackburn.

00:15:40.640 I say to you, when the Israelis responded 0.79

00:15:42.420 to the terrorism out of Gaza,

00:15:43.600 we had men from Bradford come down

00:15:45.340 into the Finchley Road and other parts

00:15:49.180 on a Saturday morning

00:15:49.940 when there were fellow Jewish friends of ours

00:15:52.480 and fellow citizens going to the synagogue,

00:15:55.080 addressing them with, you know,

00:15:56.140 we're using expletives against them and their mothers.

00:16:00.120 I could go on and on and on.

00:16:01.560 So we're already seeing separatism.

00:16:03.220 Or driving through North London 0.99

00:16:04.960 with convoys saying rape Jewish women, etc. 1.00

00:16:07.800 Yes, yes. 0.99

00:16:08.540 You put it politely, they used other words.

00:16:10.380 Yeah.

00:16:11.840 So I think you've worked out by now

00:16:16.080 that I'm not a scholar of the Quran.

00:16:18.740 That's fine.

00:16:19.140 Or of the faith in general.

00:16:20.520 But the question I would ask,

00:16:22.480 is it has been said by some people

00:16:25.900 that the political, the merger of politics with religion

00:16:30.200 is inseparable within Islam.

00:16:34.160 That it is a political and theological ideology.

00:16:39.300 And absent a reformation like the Christian faith had, 0.96

00:16:43.060 it will always be that way.

00:16:44.860 What do you say to those people?

00:16:46.020 Yeah, that's an interesting argument.

00:16:47.800 And I would say that it's a historic argument.

00:16:50.700 It belongs in the history books.

00:16:52.180 It belongs in our past because you can't live 30 million Muslims who live in the West. 1.00

00:16:59.740 The West is built on secularism, it's built on secular laws, and it's built on nation states.

00:17:06.180 You can't live as a citizen in those countries and believe that you're now going to undo secular laws, undo nation states, and bring in some kind of sharia arrangement.

00:17:16.240 If that's what you want, then please live in Afghanistan because that's what they're trying to do over there. 1.00

00:17:20.880 because they want to go back to a different world the world has moved on now can islam modernize 0.83

00:17:27.000 can muslims modernize absolutely they can and the best evidence for that is what we're now seeing 0.96

00:17:31.340 in several of the arab gulf countries and the best evidence for that is that we now have 52

00:17:37.720 muslim nation states then they're not forming a caliphate they want to be secular nation states

00:17:43.860 the best evidence for that is those countries want secular laws other than afghanistan not not a single

00:17:50.340 51 of the other Muslim countries, you know, want to lash women or want to stone adulterers or want 1.00

00:17:56.860 to bring any of those hard lines. What about Saudi Arabia? I don't think women are lashed 1.00

00:18:01.500 anymore or stoned to death. But the point is, even in Saudi Arabia, they're trying to reform

00:18:07.100 and modernize and change. No, I see exactly what you're saying. The only question I would put to

00:18:10.560 you, I have a friend who actually trained as an imam before moving on with his life. And one of

00:18:15.600 the things she always said to me is people like you who are saying we need to move on you are

00:18:22.640 blaspheming according to the scripture you are trying to reform a religion that has very precise

00:18:28.600 definitions of how you ought to behave and the idea of reforming is blasphemous now i don't agree

00:18:35.760 i don't think the the the muslim record over the last 1400 years agrees i mean 1857 the ottoman

00:18:42.200 empire the caliphate decriminalized homosexuality you know this is before oscar wilde by 140 years 0.94

00:18:49.500 you know so it's just worth bearing in mind that there is a long tradition of reform and change

00:18:56.640 and modernization within islam um i mean the prophet muhammad was supposed to be a reformer

00:19:01.640 that's the whole point he had a problem with the doctrine of the trinity and he was trying to

00:19:06.640 reform islam began as a reformation it began as change it began as a renaissance we can't now 0.87

00:19:12.100 become the people who suddenly are becoming frozen in time. That's not who we are. It's

00:19:17.660 not blasphemous to seek for change. Across the Muslim world has changed. My fear is that 1.00

00:19:24.140 Muslims in this country are stuck in the 1970s imagination of what it means to be Muslim. 0.91

00:19:30.060 The Middle East is changing. For example, the Abraham Accords. Who would have thought 1.00

00:19:33.600 that you would have peace in the open, a warm, lively peace with Israel between multiple

00:19:40.580 arab nations so my point is this that reform and change is normal you know you can either change

00:19:46.400 edmund burke famously famously said that you know in order to conserve you've got to change

00:19:51.820 conservation depends on change if you don't change you die so muslims have got to change and adapt 1.00

00:19:56.940 we saw in the life of the prophet muhammad he changed from being in mecca to medina you know

00:20:01.320 we saw his companions changing when they went from place to place you know we saw islam in indonesia

00:20:06.300 is different from Islam in Bosnia

00:20:08.320 is different from Islam in Nigeria

00:20:10.180 is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia

00:20:11.960 we can't now say that in the year

00:20:14.460 2022 here in England

00:20:15.980 we are not going to change and adapt

00:20:18.420 well then don't

00:20:20.400 come to England because there's a certain way of doing

00:20:22.420 things here when you're here you do

00:20:24.420 them as they're supposed to be done rather than

00:20:26.480 trying to recreate Afghanistan here 0.97

00:20:28.520 your full great outdoors comedy

00:20:30.380 festival lineup is here

00:20:32.120 on September 11th through 13th at

00:20:34.440 One of my mates is a Muslim lad, and I was talking to him about this,

00:20:48.360 and he said to me, part of the issue with what we're seeing in this country, Francis,

00:20:53.000 is that a lot of poorer people came from India and Pakistan and Bangladesh to this country,

00:20:59.320 and they have a far more conservative version of Islam

00:21:03.100 than the upper and the middle classes in places like India.

00:21:06.960 Is that true? Would you agree with that?

00:21:08.740 That's partly true, but it's not the whole story

00:21:10.780 because we have people who came from India who were Sikhs and Hindus

00:21:14.880 from similar parts of the subcontinent.

00:21:17.840 Sikhs came from the Punjab, Muslims also came from the Punjab.

00:21:22.300 Hindus similarly came from parts of India from which Muslims also came.

00:21:25.760 Then it begs the question, why is it that we have Hindus and Sikhs who are very patriotic

00:21:31.640 and generally much more integrated than parts of Bradford and Keithley and East London and so on?

00:21:41.120 There's something else going on.

00:21:42.540 It's the question that we discussed at the outset, Constantine.

00:21:45.780 Islamism, the desire to have a political ideology.

00:21:49.500 Make Islam your personal faith and love God as much as you want. 0.54

00:21:52.500 But when you make that your political ideology, which you must impose on others, you must hate Israel, you must dislike and see women as second-class citizens, that non-Muslims are somehow filthy and that public politicization is the problem.

00:22:08.800 If we had to identify one thing, it would be that.

00:22:11.080 And then I would also ask the question, why is it that Muslims in America are so generally much more integrated?

00:22:16.720 you know i i and i don't want to name names but someone who i know from here went to live in

00:22:21.920 america a prominent british journalist uh is a british muslim journalist went to washington dc

00:22:26.960 went into a mosque to pray and he was shocked to see that many of the members of that congregation

00:22:32.240 were muslims who worked for the cia the state department the pentagon the u.s army and he he

00:22:37.540 just could his whole thing was i thought we were against all of those institutions but american

00:22:42.540 Muslims are American and they proudly serve in the US armed forces. And when we see more and more

00:22:48.680 and more British Muslims serving in the British armed forces, there are a good 600 or so at the

00:22:53.400 moment, but we need to see that reflected as per, you know, 4 million Muslims, then you know that

00:22:59.000 you were making real progress. When Muslims start to pray for Her Majesty the Queen of the Royal 1.00

00:23:02.280 Family, you know we're making real progress. When Muslims in Britain start to behave like the United 1.00

00:23:06.760 Arab Emirates and other countries and make peace with Israel and love their fellow Jewish forebears,

00:23:11.740 you know we've made progress. Until those things happen, we have a genuine concern for

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00:24:24.800 Ed, how much of this is a problem from rogue imams preaching this kind of hatred, this intolerance? 1.00

00:24:32.260 I'll give you an example.

00:24:33.420 So for about three, four months

00:24:35.800 when I was doing supply teaching,

00:24:37.340 I was working in an Islamic primary school

00:24:39.540 and I had a brilliant time, actually.

00:24:41.940 I really enjoyed it.

00:24:43.100 They were lovely people, warm, kind.

00:24:46.280 One of the best schools I've worked in.

00:24:47.980 Really, really was.

00:24:48.840 It was lovely.

00:24:49.800 You mentioned there was a lot of discipline there.

00:24:51.580 Yeah, which I agree with.

00:24:54.500 No bad thing at school.

00:24:55.740 Yeah, exactly.

00:24:57.400 He always complains about the lack of discipline.

00:24:59.480 Yeah, they were.

00:25:00.020 They were better behaved, actually.

00:25:01.240 But there was only one incident that caused me real calls for alarm

00:25:06.940 in that at three o'clock or half two,

00:25:10.760 they had an imam come in to give Islamic studies.

00:25:14.320 And he sat these kids down,

00:25:15.720 and I was teaching a year two class at the time.

00:25:17.980 I was covering maternity.

00:25:19.080 So how old is that?

00:25:19.860 So year two, this is about six and seven years old, right?

00:25:23.260 And he sat them down, these little kids, sweet little kids.

00:25:26.540 And he was telling them stories from the Quran, all good.

00:25:28.980 And then he told the story about Jesus and the story of Jesus.

00:25:35.460 And he said to them, Jesus was killed because the Jews were jealous of him.

00:25:40.440 And then he repeated it several times more than was necessary.

00:25:45.220 And I remember watching it and going, what's going on here?

00:25:49.100 Is this indoctrination?

00:25:51.780 Do you see what I mean?

00:25:52.980 I felt really uncomfortable.

00:25:55.120 And I didn't quite know what I was seeing.

00:25:57.160 And then when you see about these other rogue imams, 1.00

00:26:00.180 you think, is this what's happening up and down the country?

00:26:05.480 So I'm sorry you had to encounter that.

00:26:07.740 Most Muslims don't believe Jesus was killed,

00:26:10.140 much less killed by Jewish people.

00:26:11.980 So it's strange that this imam would be putting out 1.00

00:26:15.900 basically Nazi propaganda.

00:26:19.100 We all know that Jesus was Jewish.

00:26:21.040 We all know that the New Testament was...

00:26:23.720 Most of his followers were Jewish.

00:26:25.040 so it's wrong to just blame Jewish people

00:26:27.140 because his movement was Jewish

00:26:29.260 so that aside

00:26:33.040 rogue imams yes 0.99

00:26:35.000 but I don't

00:26:36.580 I've got to be honest Francis

00:26:38.280 I don't think the problem is with imams

00:26:39.860 yes we have imams that could be better trained 1.00

00:26:42.300 and yes we could have imams that are much more patriotic

00:26:45.220 but the imams are responding to the congregation

00:26:46.980 because their salaries are raised

00:26:51.280 among the congregants

00:26:54.140 if I had to identify one source where things need to be addressed and you're near there which is

00:27:01.880 the education space you know on our university campuses we're afraid to assert you know what

00:27:08.300 would be right values versus wrong values we're afraid to say that certain values are yes superior

00:27:15.040 to other values if you believe you know in female genital mutilation I'm sorry that belief is not

00:27:21.020 just inferior but it's invalid in the eyes of someone who believes in gender equality there's 0.59

00:27:26.420 a superior and a right value and there's an inferior incorrect value if we're not prepared

00:27:31.480 to make that argument then on university campuses we have this moral relativism everything's right

00:27:35.940 all values are the same they're not and what that then produces is a media class and a political

00:27:40.240 class that won't challenge the imams when the imams are saying that a woman who is beaten up

00:27:46.220 in her marriage seeking a divorce can't get divorced because somehow it's scripturally valid

00:27:51.020 so it's all connected but the the root of it even for the rogue imams is to do with what we're 0.95

00:27:56.860 teaching our elites if you like those who are going to be forming you know the new cohort of

00:28:02.380 political and media leaders and i think so much of that is to do with with with uh with the

00:28:07.560 university space that needs to you know needs to again you know remember that the university is is

00:28:13.920 an outcome of the academy that Plato started, Socrates' student, that it was about seeking

00:28:21.280 the truth. It was about philosophy and reflecting on the world and not indoctrination. So once that,

00:28:27.080 I think, is addressed, then we'll see the wider education system and the rogue imams and others 1.00

00:28:32.620 are minimized, because it's all connected. It's all interconnected. And for as long as we, the rest

00:28:38.040 of us, don't have confidence in who we are and asserting that, I don't think we can hold migrant 1.00

00:28:43.020 communities hostage and say oh how dare you how dare you believe x y and said well no one told

00:28:47.700 them to think otherwise and no one explained that in britain you know women are equal in the eyes 0.98

00:28:52.900 of the law they have legal status that's equal to that of a man they think they're second-class

00:28:58.880 citizens because no one sat down and said to them no it's different here so i i blame ourselves for

00:29:03.980 not getting all this right before i ask you about how we try to remedy some of this which i think is

00:29:09.080 very important, obviously. The one thing that strikes me is I watch, I used to, not anymore,

00:29:15.140 but I used to watch a lot of TV, news night, question time, all of that stuff. And I fear

00:29:21.680 that I, like many people listening to this and watching this, have never heard a Muslim

00:29:27.600 on television or on the radio or on YouTube, frankly, talk the way you're talking.

00:29:34.360 So when we think about Muslim,

00:29:38.160 we think of someone who Newsnight would have on

00:29:41.120 as a sort of let's trigger everyone,

00:29:43.200 Anjum Chowdhury or some rogue preacher or whatever, right?

00:29:46.600 I don't think many people have heard someone who is Muslim

00:29:49.740 come in and talk about gender equality,

00:29:51.720 come in and talk about,

00:29:53.020 well, look, if you don't like it in this country

00:29:54.580 and you want to live in a caliphate, 0.58

00:29:56.140 well, there's some people trying to make one over there.

00:29:58.120 You go back there and do that, right?

00:30:00.620 We're not having that conversation, honestly.

00:30:02.620 So I'm really grateful that you're here and we're having this discussion genuinely.

00:30:07.020 But it does seem to me like what you're describing is a very serious problem.

00:30:11.120 Very serious problem.

00:30:12.360 And when you look at, you talked in one of your previous interviews

00:30:15.240 about the population dimension of this.

00:30:18.000 The native population, or not the native, whatever you want to call it,

00:30:22.280 the white British population or the non-Muslim population, let's say, 0.89

00:30:26.460 is declining as a percentage because we're not having enough kids.

00:30:29.860 the Muslim population is doing great.

00:30:33.600 Big families.

00:30:35.160 And if you expand that over time...

00:30:37.420 Which isn't a problem in and of itself.

00:30:38.980 Agreed.

00:30:39.540 In and of itself, fine.

00:30:40.620 Agreed.

00:30:41.220 But what kind of Islam is emerging?

00:30:42.700 Well, right.

00:30:43.560 I don't know what the percentages are,

00:30:45.340 but let's say 0.1% of all British Muslims are Islamists.

00:30:49.460 Let's say for the...

00:30:50.180 It might be more, it might be less.

00:30:51.440 I don't...

00:30:51.760 Do you know?

00:30:53.000 Do you have an estimate?

00:30:53.620 We don't have a percentage,

00:30:54.280 but what I can tell you is currently 43,000 people

00:30:56.260 are being monitored by the intelligence agencies.

00:30:58.160 That's a problem enough.

00:30:59.200 Right.

00:30:59.400 So let's say the Muslim population grows to, I think it's like 15 million by 2050, something like that, some of the estimates from the ONS, versus for now.

00:31:10.140 So then we might expect, absent a significant political change in that area, that it's not going to be 43,000, it's going to be 150,000, right?

00:31:22.900 So if this continues, the scale of the problem is going to get bigger.

00:31:28.000 Yes. And the political repercussions of that you've alluded to are going to get bigger.

00:31:33.480 And the violence will get worse. Yes. Right. So what the hell do we do about it?

00:31:39.080 Well, that's I mean, you know, you've you've made my case perfectly.

00:31:43.820 I think, you know, this is this is the real issue. But thank you for your kind words.

00:31:46.760 This is a real issue. It's not going away.

00:31:49.200 We're afraid to talk about it for fear of allegations of, you know, quote unquote, Islamophobia.

00:31:54.040 you know, the Chinese accuse us of 1.00

00:31:56.760 Sinophobia when we talk about communism

00:31:58.640 you know, it's the same thing. Yeah, Russians now got 1.00

00:32:00.780 on the racket as well

00:32:01.980 it shuts down conversation

00:32:06.560 you know, yes there's genuine fear

00:32:08.680 and yes there's, you know

00:32:10.380 attacks on Muslims and they should be 1.00

00:32:12.700 condemned and they shouldn't happen and every

00:32:14.540 individual is sacred, there's no doubt about

00:32:16.620 that

00:32:17.000 but it goes back to us having the

00:32:20.540 confidence to be able to say what you just said

00:32:22.380 you know if britain is so despised by you please leave you're not forced to stay here you can always

00:32:29.900 go to afghanistan or you can go to the remnants of isis you know wherever they're still operating

00:32:34.520 in parts of syria or you know go wherever you want but may i interrupt you very briefly i'd

00:32:39.140 love you to expand on this but you must know as someone who used to work in politics how toxic

00:32:44.580 what you've just said is but someone's got to say it someone has got to say it in order to give our

00:32:49.780 politicians and our media class confidence over time i'm not seeking votes i'm not seeking

00:32:54.360 popularity i seek the truth i love this country i have two daughters and i want them to grow up in

00:33:00.780 a country in which they're not discriminated against i want them to grow up as proud muslim

00:33:04.680 women who have the rights as any other woman as british citizens i don't want them to marry a man 1.00

00:33:09.960 who says to them that oh i can beat you because it's say so in scripture nor do i want them not

00:33:14.380 to be able to get a divorce because they're dependent on some imam nor do i want them to 0.93

00:33:18.520 inherit any less than a than a son would so for me this is very personal and i want my children

00:33:24.060 and i want their generation and others to grow up as proud westerners and there must be no conflict

00:33:29.360 between being muslim and being western and if there is a conflict and being westerner comes first

00:33:33.660 because the west is equally islamic in my eyes and i can make that argument based on history and

00:33:38.040 scripture there is no contradiction there is no clash of civilizations we've got to have the

00:33:41.900 confidence to say that that this this part of the world i mean you don't get the saint thomas

00:33:45.800 Aquinas without Avaroes or Maimonides, you know, and then without that, you don't have the

00:33:50.300 reformation and where we ended up now with the Enlightenment. So we've got to stop saying that

00:33:56.340 we're somehow at clash. Once that's done, and we agree that Muslims belong here as Westerners 1.00

00:34:02.060 with equal rights, but sign up to the Western values, you know, stop trying to subvert them,

00:34:07.040 then what we're in a position to do is to tell, give our politicians that confidence,

00:34:12.580 and which is what they don't have we haven't won the argument yet and i think once we've won

00:34:16.880 the this argument that we're having now because ultimately we will and we must for the for the

00:34:22.760 safety security prosperity of this country in this part of the world we must every other option is a

00:34:28.220 non-option for us you know there isn't going to be a harmonious coexistence in parts of blackburn

00:34:32.800 there just isn't you've got to win this argument and people who want to live a separate life have

00:34:36.420 got to decide whether they want to be in this country or somewhere else otherwise it causes

00:34:40.500 genuine long-term clashes and conflicts that are not in the interest of any quote-unquote

00:34:46.880 community you know I hate that term by the way because we're in we're individuals we're citizens

00:34:53.100 and we're we're in this country you know subjects in the another country citizens so that's the

00:34:57.700 first point the second point is the education issue you know whether it's at school level or

00:35:02.380 whether it's at university level this has got to be addressed that what Britain is as a as its own

00:35:08.960 history, what it is in terms of, I mean, I call it rigor, reason, individualism, gender equality,

00:35:15.020 the openness of this country for free speech and free press. It's uniqueness and racial equality.

00:35:21.720 Every one of those facets are opposed by Islamists and communists, by the way. And that's why those 0.90

00:35:28.280 six letters or ideas that form the acronym rigor inform us. And come hell or high water,

00:35:37.160 but we mustn't compromise on a single one of those.

00:35:39.720 And now there's Hegelian dialectic

00:35:41.120 where you just compromise and find a third way.

00:35:43.420 We've come to this point through a lot of blood

00:35:45.640 and through a lot of treasure being sacrificed

00:35:47.580 in two world wars.

00:35:48.880 Yeah, no, I agree with you.

00:35:50.180 I agree with you completely.

00:35:51.500 And by the way, your point about the fact

00:35:53.340 that there is no clash of civilizations,

00:35:54.900 it's been echoed by many of our previous guests

00:35:56.920 who we've taught, Ayman Deen,

00:35:58.060 former Al-Qaeda informer,

00:36:00.640 started working for Amai Phi, and many others,

00:36:03.920 to explain to us what you said,

00:36:05.500 which is the conflict isn't between Islam and the West.

00:36:08.280 The conflict is between Islamists who hate the nation state

00:36:11.280 and want a caliphate and everybody else.

00:36:13.280 Yes.

00:36:13.600 Which is why they're not only blowing up people in this country,

00:36:16.020 they're blowing people all over the Middle East. 0.99

00:36:18.120 More Muslims have died in their homes. 1.00

00:36:19.240 Of course.

00:36:19.700 Because they want those nation states not to exist either, right?

00:36:23.380 Exactly.

00:36:23.660 So I get all that.

00:36:24.760 My question to you, and trust me,

00:36:28.440 I fear what you fear as much as you fear it.

00:36:31.700 And I see it coming as much as you see it coming.

00:36:34.080 Because it's obvious.

00:36:34.760 Once you start playing identity politics in this way, the end is obvious, inter-tribal conflict.

00:36:40.220 It's inevitable. 0.93

00:36:42.180 But you can say this because you're a Muslim and because you're brown. 1.00

00:36:46.080 I can say it because I'm an immigrant and because I have dark skin and I can go, well, as an immigrant, I actually, you know, if Russians in this country said we need to make this the greater Russia and live by Russian standards and adopt the Orthodox Christian religion, I'd be like, why don't you fuck off back to Russia? 1.00

00:37:01.360 That's what I would say. 0.99

00:37:02.640 And I'd be okay to say that.

00:37:04.580 But Francis wouldn't, right?

00:37:07.100 And I'm not saying people should say that.

00:37:08.540 Political correctness got mad at me.

00:37:09.640 Why not, Francis?

00:37:13.220 I'm exaggerating the point.

00:37:14.780 That's what bothers me, because we should be able to, as individuals,

00:37:18.100 as patriots, as citizens, take a position that's of relevance

00:37:22.320 to our individuality, our citizenship, and our country.

00:37:24.740 Regardless, Martin Luther King's content of your character,

00:37:28.240 that was his dream, not to be judged by the colour of your skin.

00:37:32.100 And that's who we are.

00:37:33.120 We can't, we had two black Roman emperors. 1.00

00:37:37.100 You know, the Romans, they were a hodgepodge of, you know, that's who we are. 1.00

00:37:41.360 That's what makes us unique and different and open and special.

00:37:44.200 So how do we get there? This is what I'm asking.

00:37:45.580 But continue to defend the Enlightenment heritage that we have.

00:37:49.640 You know, those of us who want to conserve liberalism or the Enlightenment tradition,

00:37:53.360 and that's what it is.

00:37:54.120 We can't, I think we're doing it now that we're defending our inheritance.

00:37:58.500 And we refuse to give up.

00:37:59.600 I refuse to be seen just as someone who has a certain skin tone

00:38:02.860 or just as my gender.

00:38:04.280 Judge me by the content of what I'm saying

00:38:06.300 and my character and my behaviour.

00:38:08.120 Don't judge me by...

00:38:09.740 Because otherwise we're undoing Martin Luther King.

00:38:11.800 We're undoing all those people who died.

00:38:13.640 And it's got to be done by us doing what we're doing,

00:38:15.500 by defending it, by not kowtowing,

00:38:17.260 by not doing the tribalism.

00:38:20.680 And ultimately, in the long term,

00:38:23.080 it's got to be winning the political argument,

00:38:25.280 the reform on our university campuses,

00:38:27.060 and by winning the battle of ideas

00:38:30.640 among Muslim communities and others.

00:38:32.500 And I think, forgive me for being an optimist,

00:38:34.780 I think we are.

00:38:35.840 I don't think we're losing this.

00:38:37.400 What's your evidence?

00:38:37.880 I think we're winning.

00:38:38.820 Well, the evidence is...

00:38:40.380 For us winning.

00:38:42.000 Well, I think, you know, you're seeing,

00:38:43.820 even from David Cameron to Angela Merkel

00:38:48.040 to Boris Johnson to Macron,

00:38:51.560 these are all centrist political figures

00:38:53.820 who have thrown out the baby of multiculturalism. 0.52

00:38:59.200 They realize that you can't just say we're all the same.

00:39:04.100 So that's now a positive sign.

00:39:08.240 The second positive sign is that there are many more Muslims 1.00

00:39:11.460 who are making the kind of arguments that I am

00:39:13.320 and people from other faith backgrounds.

00:39:16.460 And the third argument is I think I always judge something

00:39:18.940 historically and now by the way in which we're treating Jewish people

00:39:21.940 because they're an ancient people

00:39:25.840 who've been with us for 6,000 years

00:39:27.140 and everyone who's mistreated them

00:39:28.900 has got it wrong over the years.

00:39:31.540 So how Muslims interact with the Jewish state

00:39:34.200 is absolutely vital.

00:39:35.500 Israel was so isolated just five years ago

00:39:37.680 and now we're seeing a greater acceptance of Israel

00:39:40.940 which bodes well for the future of the Middle East

00:39:43.120 but we haven't seen that here yet

00:39:45.200 and I think that's another positive sign.

00:39:46.740 A fourth sign, if I have to,

00:39:47.600 is the defeat of Jeremy Corbyn.

00:39:49.620 That's got to be a good sign

00:39:51.080 We were on the cusp of an anti-Semite taking power and the Labour Party, one of our great political parties, taken hostage by the ugly alignment of the far left and Islamists, defeated roundly. 0.81

00:40:05.840 So I think those are signs that we must, and my teacher Roger Scruton used to say that we must always be optimistic, otherwise we run the risk of talking ourselves down and embracing a negative future, and we mustn't and we can't.

00:40:21.080 Ed, it's such a brilliant conversation. I'm really enjoying it.

00:40:25.540 We had Ed West on, the journalist, and he made the point,

00:40:29.720 and it's something that struck me, and I always think about it, actually,

00:40:32.980 that if you don't talk about taboo subjects honestly,

00:40:36.500 then what happens is you're never going to find the solution to the problem

00:40:39.300 because you're not discussing the problem in an honest and frank fashion

00:40:42.840 and you're not dealing with all the facets of the problem.

00:40:45.160 my worry is is that we continue along this route where we have taboos and what always happens in

00:40:52.620 this situation is you get nefarious figures from the far right who will come along and go look

00:40:57.340 they're not talking about it but i'm going to and that can start a movement and what happens at that

00:41:04.420 point is that you're in a really dangerous situation yes because what you're doing is just

00:41:11.260 collecting tinder by not talking about it and eventually something's going to happen there's

00:41:15.800 going to be a spark whether it be a terrorist incident or something else and we're going to

00:41:20.740 we're going to be in a very dangerous place absolutely right and that's not to exaggerate

00:41:26.020 it whatsoever you know it it takes just one or two incidents to create I mean I could you know

00:41:35.060 in my mind you know Serbia comes to mind no one thought that Serbian nationalism would trigger

00:41:39.500 the first world war but it did you know in france now you've got someone from the far right who's a

00:41:45.300 serious political contender again this is the fourth french general election in which there

00:41:49.520 is someone from the far right that's a popular contender and britain's been very blessed over

00:41:54.020 the last millennium that we don't have extremist political forces you know but we shouldn't take

00:41:58.160 that for granted the english-speaking world is genuinely at risk with this issue so we should

00:42:02.600 speak about taboo subjects i mean since when did we stop pursuing truth since when did we stop

00:42:08.740 having a battle of ideas and we got to where we got to by discussing taboo subjects the

00:42:13.600 enlightenment was exactly that you know having a reasoned conversation with religious clerics

00:42:18.360 and others in order to get beyond dogma now we can't having got here after 500 years of people

00:42:24.160 dying and witches being burnt and heretics being killed uh you know civil wars and world wars we

00:42:32.160 can now we can't now say we've got a new set of dogmas and please we're not going there no we

00:42:37.040 We're going everywhere. There's going to be free conversation based on respect,

00:42:40.480 by pursuit of truth, by the use of free reason, without which we're lost.

00:42:44.100 We're going back in time. It's a regression.

00:42:46.740 And our forefathers, you know, many Muslims and others died in both world wars, you know,

00:42:51.780 didn't fight two world wars for a free world in order for their grandchildren us

00:42:55.880 now to be captured again for a new set of dogmas where, as you say,

00:42:59.840 taboo subjects are off the table. They mustn't be. 1.00

00:43:02.040 But you work in a university, Ed. You must have seen with your own eyes

00:43:06.220 It's how freedom of speech has been degraded.

00:43:09.580 You know, students complaining that they need to feel safe, etc., etc.

00:43:13.720 People being deplatformed.

00:43:15.900 I work at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C.,

00:43:19.420 and I've got to say, in all honesty, I haven't faced any of those difficulties.

00:43:23.280 I honestly haven't.

00:43:26.520 I teach a course on Western Civilization and Islam and Judaism

00:43:30.420 and how the three forces over time gave us the modern world.

00:43:33.980 and, you know, I defend the West, I explain the West.

00:43:37.600 My students are there, part of the security studies programme

00:43:40.740 to then go out.

00:43:41.540 Many of them have done active duty in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

00:43:44.840 So, I mean, it's the real world stuff.

00:43:47.120 And I've got to say, I haven't...

00:43:48.660 Yeah, but you're not dealing with pink-haired 18-year-olds though, are you?

00:43:51.340 They're post-graduates.

00:43:53.000 And you're not talking about the trans issue.

00:43:56.040 They're all welcome, they're all welcome.

00:43:57.820 They are all welcome because they too deserve to be in these classes

00:44:00.860 in order to have those conversations, you know.

00:44:02.540 And I also cut some slack to the younger generation.

00:44:05.280 I think you're allowed to be blue-headed or pink-headed,

00:44:08.800 whatever it is, for a period of time.

00:44:11.360 And then you grow up, right?

00:44:12.520 You grow up, you realise the real world,

00:44:14.200 and then you start to appreciate the inheritance that we have.

00:44:18.000 I mean, Stephen Pinker's completely right on, by every measure,

00:44:21.800 where we were just 200 years to where we are now.

00:44:23.940 We can only give gratitude to the past, to where we've arrived.

00:44:28.160 And how much of a problem do you think is the narrative?

00:44:31.720 and look the narrative has got a certain merit to it you know that America are the oppressors

00:44:38.680 what they've done in places like Iraq Syria has caused untold suffering they had no business 1.00

00:44:45.900 being there how much of a part has that played in radicalizing young men it's had some I mean

00:44:53.580 they that those are grievances that are used right but 9-11 happened before Syria and before Iraq

00:45:00.060 You know, in 1993, Omar Abdurrahman, the blind shag from Egypt, 1.00

00:45:05.180 was involved in the World Trade Center.

00:45:06.900 This is 1993, after the West had got involved in Bosnia

00:45:10.480 against the Serbs and other Christian nations.

00:45:13.960 So these are all ideological kind of issues that they use to mobilise people.

00:45:19.240 The real issue at the crux of it is that there is a movement out there,

00:45:23.640 just like the Chinese communist people hide among ordinary Chinese people,

00:45:26.880 Islamists hide among ordinary Muslims and it is that force that's active in 52 Muslim countries

00:45:33.660 that seeks to destabilize as you rightly said Constantine those countries first and foremost

00:45:38.040 you know over 45,000 Pakistanis have been killed by the Pakistani Taliban and to do away with

00:45:44.440 those nation states and that secular settlement and before it comes here so it's that ideology

00:45:50.000 which we've got to defeat and the good news is this we have defeated other ideologies and we

00:45:54.960 have won but the way we've done that yes you know the the radio free europe and so on those are all

00:46:00.340 tactics but we have got to assert and retain and defend and be proud of who we are if we're if we're

00:46:08.120 not going to defend who we are i mean hilal the elder used to say this the great jewish rabbi that

00:46:12.480 you know if a nation doesn't know who it is and defend itself it doesn't it doesn't deserve

00:46:17.740 survival that's a strong warning to who we are if we want to continue to be the world's top dog

00:46:23.560 we've got to know and defend and pass on this heritage to our children.

00:46:27.200 Again, you know, Edmund Burke was brilliant at this, you know,

00:46:30.100 that society is a contract between the past, the present and the yet unborn.

00:46:35.500 I mean, this is our heritage.

00:46:37.620 We have got to defend it, for if we don't, nobody else will.

00:46:40.760 But the problem is, so you've got this very small sliver of society.

00:46:45.780 Now, you can say to them, look, if you're not happy here, go.

00:46:49.680 But what do you do with them?

00:46:51.440 I mean, really, because if you put them into prison, they not only become even more radicalised, they radicalise other people.

00:46:58.820 You know, what was interesting, Francis, is the strongest reaction that we've seen from that camp,

00:47:02.800 that small camp you've identified, was when Priti Patel threatened to remove their citizenship.

00:47:07.500 That's the thing that gets to them most, because they realise they're operating under the banner of British protection.

00:47:15.440 The moment you remove that protection, you start seeing them getting edgy.

00:47:18.460 It's the only time I've seen them in the last 15 years

00:47:20.660 mount a serious challenge to that way of thinking,

00:47:24.720 which tells us it hurts them, which tells us that it worries them.

00:47:28.980 So in the meantime, I think that's exactly the way to go.

00:47:31.260 That if you are...

00:47:36.260 We have a word for it, it's called treason.

00:47:38.660 We've had it on the books for more than 600 years.

00:47:43.060 If you commit acts of treason, there will be repercussions.

00:47:45.960 In a free and fair society, of course you can question our direction of travel

00:47:51.540 and of course you can question certain social practices.

00:47:55.020 I think we're all aghast that we have a culture of people getting drunk

00:47:58.760 and vomiting on the streets.

00:48:00.160 We all want to see a better country.

00:48:01.960 But let's work on this together rather than saying the entire West is at fault

00:48:05.800 and therefore we're going to blow you up. 0.98

00:48:08.980 If people are of that persuasion, then we've got to make being in Britain 1.00

00:48:13.880 for that type of person unwelcome.

00:48:17.380 And do you think,

00:48:18.480 are you in favour of stripping citizenship?

00:48:20.820 So, for instance, in the case of Shamima Begum, 0.84

00:48:23.180 are you in favour of...

00:48:25.100 Shamima Begum, I'm afraid I am,

00:48:27.480 because she made a conscious decision and she went...

00:48:30.120 Even though she made it as somebody 15, underage,

00:48:33.820 under legal age, etc.

00:48:34.940 But I don't think we've seen genuine contrition from her.

00:48:39.340 I still have a problem with the kind of people

00:48:41.880 that are representing her.

00:48:42.840 I don't want to sound libelous here

00:48:45.060 but there are genuine issues

00:48:47.600 as to the kind of people that are representing

00:48:49.300 and the kind of arguments that they're making

00:48:50.760 and the lack of contrition

00:48:52.600 wearing western clothes isn't contrition

00:48:55.700 there's an ongoing legal process

00:48:59.220 let's not get into that

00:49:00.620 but the point is

00:49:02.000 Shamima is a reminder to millions of Muslims 0.91

00:49:05.020 as to how great this country is

00:49:06.440 that she wants to come back

00:49:08.120 she's not saying that she wants to go

00:49:11.320 to Afghanistan

00:49:13.280 but here's the problem

00:49:16.500 and you as an educator

00:49:18.100 I'm sure you've grappled with this question

00:49:20.240 I doubt I'm the first person to have asked you this

00:49:22.540 but this is the problem of a tolerant

00:49:24.380 society is if you become too tolerant

00:49:26.280 then the intolerant people within the society

00:49:28.440 will triumph

00:49:29.100 but to a British

00:49:32.540 listener

00:49:33.940 hearing the idea that we might take

00:49:36.540 someone who's here in the third generation

00:49:38.800 who's never been to

00:49:40.540 any other country other than Britain. Who hates this country? Who's maybe committed violence here

00:49:47.220 to strip them of their citizens? Isn't that un-British? No, it's very British. Very British

00:49:53.920 in the sense that your citizenship is something that's dependent on you having a contract with

00:50:00.140 the rest of society where you don't go around killing them, destroying them, undermining what

00:50:04.380 this country is all about. That's why we have something called the treason laws. Every year

00:50:10.440 we celebrate Guy Fawkes night because he was a catholic terrorist trying to blow up parliament 1.00

00:50:15.820 Guy Fawkes remembering that moment is among the most British things to think to do you know so I

00:50:20.900 don't think it's un-British to say if you want to blow up parliament and we've had four attacks in

00:50:25.020 the last 10 years on parliament from Islamist extremists if you want to remove the British 0.99

00:50:30.240 freedom of women to wear whatever they want whenever they want however they want wherever

00:50:34.020 they want if you want to kill our Jewish citizens who contributed to this country from 1070 with 0.98

00:50:40.340 william the conqueror all the way to disraelia and onwards you're not part of us and the way

00:50:46.240 you're not part of us is that you no longer enjoy the privileges of a british passport and british

00:50:51.040 citizenship now it's it's obviously got to be violent and it's got to be active i mean someone

00:50:55.880 who's questioning all of that it's they're fully within their rights as was jeremy corbyn to want

00:51:00.760 to make friends with the ira and want to make friends with hamas and hezbollah you're fully

00:51:04.140 within your rights you need to be a dissenter but when you take up arms and when you undermine

00:51:09.340 us, our people, our institutions, and then you join forces with our enemies to destroy

00:51:14.780 our soldiers, British soldiers, who are putting their lives at risk so that all of us can

00:51:19.580 sleep at home peacefully at night, that's not British. 1.00

00:51:23.360 And the way you punish that is by removing the very documents and the very privileges

00:51:27.820 that allows you to commit treason against us.

00:51:31.380 Guy Fawkes is the best example that comes to my mind.

00:51:33.480 So I guess what you're saying, we should deal with acts of political terrorism differently

00:51:38.280 as we would with common criminals.

00:51:40.480 So if someone, you know,

00:51:42.100 if there's a stabbing incident on the street,

00:51:43.880 we don't deport people for engaging in that.

00:51:46.440 But if you are engaging in that for political purposes

00:51:50.400 as an act of intimidation, of terrorism, et cetera,

00:51:53.820 you consider that a different issue.

00:51:55.740 There have been several Islamist terrorist plots

00:51:59.040 against the monarchy, against the prime minister,

00:52:03.240 against the foreign secretary, against parliament.

00:52:05.700 three parliamentarians have been attacked i mean this is in the last 15 years what more do we need

00:52:13.500 before we say when you act against the country its institutions its history its symbols and you

00:52:20.240 attack our most treasured minority communities i.e jewish communities and you know we've had 1.00

00:52:26.740 suicide bombers from here going going and attack israel what at what point do we say enough and i

00:52:34.240 think that point is here and i think this point is now and i think priti patel is right to want

00:52:39.200 to remove citizenship from people who don't want that citizenship who hate that citizenship who

00:52:43.720 speak out against the hate of citizenship and commit acts of violence against our greatest

00:52:47.980 people our armed forces and we've got to be able to make that argument with complete confidence

00:52:53.420 broadway's smash hit the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise is coming to toronto the true

00:53:00.540 story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more featuring all the songs you love

00:53:05.300 including America, Forever in Blue Jeans and Sweet Caroline. Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful

00:53:11.000 the next musical mega hit is here. The Neil Diamond Musical. A Beautiful Noise. April 28th

00:53:17.240 through June 7th, 2026. The Princess of Wales Theatre. Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:53:24.940 You know a lot of mainstream people watch our show and I hope they're listening because

00:53:30.220 i don't know i haven't thought as deeply as you have about this and instinctively i am quite

00:53:35.300 uncomfortable with the idea of stripping people of national even from my own perspective you know

00:53:39.660 i've made my home here my life here i kind of like to think that even if i make a mistake now

00:53:44.800 this is more than making a mistake to be fair i i can i can stay here and serve my punishment what 0.99

00:53:50.060 if you took up arms and decided to want to you know i should fuck off back to russia there's 0.99

00:53:53.920 no question about that so so that i i think most common sense oriented people would agree with this 0.99

00:53:59.140 line of reasoning right so what i'm saying otherwise we don't have a country left as those

00:54:03.120 numbers agree and institutions are attacked you know i agree so i hope that the mainstream people

00:54:07.260 who watch our show and politicians who watch our show take note of what you're saying and give you

00:54:12.120 a biggest platform i also think you're ahead of the curve i think you know as a year i think we're

00:54:18.060 at least 10 15 years ahead people will come to this argument in time look what's happening in

00:54:22.860 france in belgium in holland across the continent and you know we've always been outlining the

00:54:28.640 continent in more ways than one and we've got to win this issue on our terms rather than be

00:54:32.680 this is my big concern ed is that i hope that the people who hear this and listen to this and who

00:54:41.060 come in the future to addressing this issue because it needs addressing there's no question

00:54:45.020 about it address it from your position because for me the fear of having these conversations

00:54:51.460 has always been the same which is you are emboldening people that you don't want to embolden

00:54:56.840 sometimes you're giving a voice to people who who want conflict this is the problem right there's a

00:55:04.660 lot of people you see it with COVID now and I know that you've tried to stay the hell away from it

00:55:08.740 and actually you've made the right decision but there are people now who are pro-restrictions

00:55:12.960 and anti-restrictions who really want COVID to carry on because it gives them meaning it gives

00:55:18.580 them purpose it gives them validity it gives them a platform it gives them all of that an identity

00:55:23.600 an identity as well and that's my fear and that's why again i'm so grateful that you're here and

00:55:28.800 we're having this conversation because there's ways to have this conversation that are very

00:55:32.380 destructive i think i agree and it's it's a difficult conversation to have because it is

00:55:37.980 about identity heritage faith emotions and that's why we've got to be reasonable about it and i you

00:55:44.340 know the thing i think most people won't understand is the people who stand to gain

00:55:49.920 most out of us getting this right is Muslims and especially Muslim women you know who are currently

00:55:56.560 you know who get married at a mosque and want to go for a divorce and suddenly realize they don't

00:56:02.100 have any rights because they didn't register their marriage you know over a hundred thousand

00:56:05.920 of those marriages are going on now so a Muslim woman coming in say from Pakistan or any other

00:56:10.860 country has rights because under our laws we recognize those marriages but if a Muslim woman 1.00

00:56:16.460 born and raised in this country a british national gets married here at a mosque she doesn't have any

00:56:20.580 rights as a as a married woman because the law doesn't currently recognize uh you know sharia 1.00

00:56:26.520 marriages because we don't recognize sharia law so if we get this right it's muslims who win 1.00

00:56:32.080 it's the very country that our forefathers came to is protected it's a win-win situation

00:56:36.420 we get this wrong it's muslims who suffer most the so-called islamophobia is harmful most to

00:56:41.480 muslims but overall we all benefit because this this you know we all love this country and we

00:56:46.080 We cherish the air and the soil in which we walk

00:56:49.720 and the countryside and its beauty.

00:56:50.960 We want to maintain that.

00:56:52.960 Ed, do you not worry that with the stripping of the citizenship 0.94

00:56:56.560 and the British passport,

00:56:58.080 that it potentially creates a two-tier society?

00:57:00.360 Because there's some people who will engage in acts of terrorism,

00:57:03.900 et cetera, et cetera,

00:57:04.680 but because they're English for five generations

00:57:09.440 or whatever it may be, they won't face the same punishment.

00:57:13.600 I don't think it only becomes a two-tier society

00:57:16.480 when it's a widespread problem,

00:57:19.540 when you've got tens of thousands of people.

00:57:21.700 I don't think that's what we're looking at.

00:57:23.020 If we get this right, if we get it now,

00:57:25.940 worst case scenario, I think we're looking at a couple of hundred,

00:57:28.520 three hundred people.

00:57:30.500 But if we let this fester,

00:57:32.480 that's when we end up in a two-tiered society.

00:57:36.780 And that's why we shouldn't get there.

00:57:38.160 We should address this now before it gets out of control.

00:57:42.000 And I think it's imminently doable.

00:57:45.440 Now, we may feel squeamy about this,

00:57:48.040 but I put it to you that every other alternative is far worse.

00:57:52.000 Agreed.

00:57:53.100 The only problem is the way our politics works

00:57:55.460 is people don't deal with problems until they become far worse.

00:57:59.520 In which case, far worse looks ugly.

00:58:02.440 It does.

00:58:02.940 It looks bloody.

00:58:03.920 It looks, I mean, it looks in parts of the North in particular,

00:58:08.120 horrendous when you look at it.

00:58:09.640 I'd encourage people in the South to go up to Blackburn,

00:58:12.640 go up to Dewsbury, and come and tell me that's England.

00:58:16.780 And what will they see?

00:58:17.700 I think parts of Dewsbury, not Didsbury,

00:58:20.420 because I got into trouble with the Daily Mail

00:58:21.900 who got Dewsbury and Didsbury.

00:58:24.340 Didsbury's fine other than a mosque that produced the guys who, 1.00

00:58:28.400 the guys who prayed there went and,

00:58:31.580 one guy in particular who used to pray at Didsbury mosque

00:58:34.240 was involved with the Ariana Grande concert.

00:58:36.520 Think about that.

00:58:37.320 in the Ariana Grande concert, attacked by a guy who prayed at a particular mosque.

00:58:40.820 I go to that mosque and I still see some of the extremist literature

00:58:43.120 that was used then, used now, and it has a Sharia court too.

00:58:48.420 So that's what the future looks like if we don't get it right.

00:58:52.440 But I think in parts of Dewsbury what people will see is areas

00:58:56.820 that look more like Afghanistan, and they should be rightly worried about that. 0.98

00:59:01.220 you know uh why should i why should i go to a mosque in blackburn or keithley and see

00:59:09.240 um the palestinian slogans and support for hamas how does that work you know you've got peter

00:59:16.100 by with much bigger issues why why are you focused on a conflict about which you have

00:59:20.320 zero involvement why should i go into a uh a bookshop in um walsall and read literature

00:59:31.060 that's being sold that denigrates gay people and women and Jewish people.

00:59:37.240 I mean, I could go on and on.

00:59:38.280 I'd encourage people to read the book.

00:59:39.580 I haven't plugged the book in the way that Americans plug books all the time,

00:59:42.060 saying, read my book, read my book, read my book.

00:59:43.440 But I mean, I've documented it all, and it's in the book.

00:59:46.440 And I think, you know, those who care about the future of this country

00:59:50.720 should read it and defend it with every fiber of their being.

00:59:55.000 Muslims and others are welcome to this country.

00:59:57.020 You know, it's not putting up the barriers.

00:59:58.760 Come on board.

00:59:59.640 but as the ancient romans did you know become roman don't try and undermine and subvert a

01:00:05.900 beautiful country and a civilization that's welcoming you giving you shelter comfort

01:00:09.980 and and your children prosperity that's a beautiful note to finish on and i really

01:00:15.400 admire your spirit of optimism as well and i agree with you temperamentally if not intellectually

01:00:20.980 anyway i share your optimism but we'll see whether either of us is right and it's been a pleasure

01:00:26.920 the book is called Among the Mosques and I do genuinely of course recommend that people get it

01:00:30.760 and read it because I think they'll get a deeper insight into many of the things you're talking

01:00:34.020 about but as ever we've got one more question for you which is always what's the one thing we're not

01:00:38.440 talking about but we really should be Christianity Christianity it's it's the heritage that has made

01:00:46.060 this part of the world different from other countries and other parts of the world because

01:00:49.780 it's with Christianity you get individualism because it breaks from you know inherited 0.98

01:00:54.940 religiosity and there's I mean one of the things that Roger said when I last met him Roger Scruton

01:01:01.440 I remember seeing sitting beside him in his country farm and he said that you know the teaching that

01:01:09.020 Jesus gave in terms of render unto unto God what is God and unto Caesar what is Caesar's made this

01:01:15.540 part of the world different the bedrock of secularism now love each other as I've loved you

01:01:19.980 you know the bedrock of forgiveness and inclusivity and um you know the

01:01:25.500 those two teachings in particular but i mean i could go on but i don't want to kind of upset

01:01:31.560 people uh with with the whole kind of crucifixion and people get upset because there's and the

01:01:38.200 trinity but but the point is we don't have to talk about jesus constantly in those terms he was

01:01:43.040 and remains probably the greatest teacher that humanity has ever had and i think here in the

01:01:48.660 west our distance from christianity is creating some of the dissonance that we're seeing now

01:01:55.060 because we've forgotten notions of forgiveness so part of the identity politics and cancel

01:01:59.400 culture is that you know when someone's committed a blunder well what's their way back

01:02:02.760 we don't have redemption left anymore um hence i think that the talk and remembrance of the

01:02:09.080 heritage that this country and other countries indeed have from christianity is important because

01:02:14.380 without that spiritual energy giving force we will continue to stray away from the the great

01:02:22.860 heritage that has been passed on to us by christians and others of the past ed thank you so

01:02:29.420 much if people want to find you online where's the best place to do that twitter i think it's

01:02:33.040 probably where i'm most active from time to time okay thank you guys for having ed and uh at what

01:02:38.600 what is it, underscore Hussain with one S.

01:02:43.480 We'll make sure to put that in the description

01:02:45.360 and the link to the book as well, of course.

01:02:47.220 Thank you.

01:02:47.540 You've both been fantastic, by the way,

01:02:48.940 and keep up the excellent work that you do.

01:02:50.940 We've been brilliant seeing you.

01:02:51.560 Really appreciate that.

01:02:52.380 We're going to ask you a couple of exclusive questions

01:02:54.200 for our supporters only.

01:02:56.080 But for now, thank you so much.

01:02:57.920 And thank you guys for watching and listening.

01:03:00.180 We will be back very soon with another brilliant episode

01:03:03.020 like this one or our show.

01:03:05.040 All of them go out at 7 p.m. UK time.

01:03:07.020 And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast.

01:03:12.160 Take care and see you soon, guys.

01:03:15.760 How much do Muslim community leaders, in inverted commas, 1.00

01:03:19.420 actually reflect the opinions and values of British Muslims?

01:03:37.020 The story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

01:03:45.700 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

01:03:52.580 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, the Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:03:57.500 Get tickets at Mirvish.com.

TRIGGERnometry - February 21, 2022

Islam and the West - Ed Husain

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