TRIGGERnometry - November 24, 2024


Israel Killed My Family But I Want Peace - Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 37 minutes

Words per Minute

159.78214

Word Count

15,519

Sentence Count

736

Misogynist Sentences

11

Hate Speech Sentences

110


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On this episode of the show, we have a guest who is a pro-Palestine voice on the pro-Palestinian side of the debate. He is a Palestinian refugee from the Gaza Strip who has lived in the United States for the past ten years. He has a fascinating story of how he became a US citizen.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.640 I have 31 dead family members from three separate airstrikes, and I have no idea why they're dead.
00:00:06.900 Literally half of my f***ing family is dead.
00:00:09.380 Over time, and especially now, Hamas' support is absolutely in the toilet.
00:00:15.180 They're seeing how Hamas behaves.
00:00:17.000 They're seeing that there's no strategy.
00:00:18.820 They're seeing that this is merely a nihilistic exercise of suicidal adventurism, that we are pawns.
00:00:25.820 They most nefariously served the aims of Prime Minister Netanyahu and the messianic right-wing in Israel,
00:00:33.620 who used Hamas and allowed Hamas' political rise to fester because they could weaken the Palestinian authority.
00:00:42.460 This is an opportunity to shape the next generation of Palestinian governors in Gaza.
00:00:49.480 Ahmed, great to have you on the show.
00:00:51.380 Thanks so much for having me.
00:00:52.300 No, it's a pleasure.
00:00:52.900 You're one of the voices on the pro-Palestine side, if you might frame it like that.
00:00:59.140 One of the very few, actually, that certainly we've seen.
00:01:02.560 We've had many guests on the show, several guests on the show, I should say, who are pro-Palestinian.
00:01:07.540 And with all respect, we can never get a straight answer to quite simple questions.
00:01:13.120 And you are somebody that I see who's actually attempting to do that and present a coherent and rational case for what you believe.
00:01:19.600 So it's a great pleasure to have you on.
00:01:20.900 We're going to talk about your opinions and suggestions and proposals in a second.
00:01:25.520 But you've also had a very, you know, to put it very mildly, interesting personal story and situation.
00:01:32.060 So tell us about who you are before we get into what you think.
00:01:34.880 Certainly.
00:01:35.320 Well, thanks again for having me.
00:01:36.520 I've really been a long, long time fan.
00:01:38.900 And I came to the United States in 2005 as part of a post-9-11 cultural exchange program.
00:01:45.620 So I was 15 at the time.
00:01:46.900 It brought me here to be in high school for a year, live with a host family, experience the United States, and hopefully take that back to my native land and native country and build cultural bridges.
00:01:57.880 It brought young Middle Eastern and Muslim students to the United States.
00:02:01.800 And I was lucky to be in the San Francisco Bay Area.
00:02:04.700 I left one month before the withdrawal.
00:02:07.340 I'm from the Gaza Strip.
00:02:09.000 I was born in Saudi Arabia, went back and forth, as is very common for a lot of people in Gaza, doctors, teachers, nurses.
00:02:15.740 You go abroad, mainly to the Gulf.
00:02:17.680 You work.
00:02:18.380 You build up a little nest.
00:02:19.880 And then you bring that back to the Gaza Strip.
00:02:22.100 Our family went back and forth, lived in Gaza, and then Saudi in the 90s, back and forth.
00:02:27.780 And then we moved back permanently right before the second Intifada.
00:02:31.500 And so I grew up in the Gaza Strip, mainly, some in Saudi Arabia, and then came here for a year.
00:02:38.500 When I finished that year of high school exchange, I tried to go back to the Gaza Strip.
00:02:43.200 I was stuck in Egypt trying to go into the Gaza through the Rafah border crossing.
00:02:47.780 And Gaza doesn't have its own entry and exit points, so you have to go through Egypt.
00:02:54.320 And upon attempting to do that, unfortunately, Hamas abducted Gilad Shalit, a young Israeli soldier, in June of 2006 in Gaza.
00:03:04.600 And this was soon followed up by the 33-day war in Lebanon with Hezbollah.
00:03:11.260 So it was a very miniaturized October 7, if you will.
00:03:14.200 And so I was stuck in Egypt for months, unable to go back.
00:03:16.540 Thanks to the support of human rights and peace activists in the United States, including even a Holocaust survivor who really helped make this happen.
00:03:26.680 I came back to the United States, applied for political asylum status.
00:03:31.240 This was after Hamas had won the infamous parliamentary elections in 2006.
00:03:36.680 And there was a sobering civil war in the Gaza Strip.
00:03:40.700 I applied for political asylum.
00:03:42.220 On the very day of my asylum interview was June 14, 2007, which is the very day that Hamas violently took over the Gaza Strip and forcefully ejected the Palestinian Authority.
00:03:53.860 It was a huge boost to my case.
00:03:55.500 And I ultimately got asylum.
00:03:57.320 I was basically the first of a wave of Palestinians from Gaza who received asylum in the United States because of Hamas' control of Gaza.
00:04:06.780 And so I became a citizen in 2014.
00:04:10.600 So that was 10 years ago.
00:04:12.540 And I'll tell you a funny story.
00:04:14.700 When I became a citizen, when I had the asylum interview, the United States government formally classified me as stateless, as a former country of nationality, because Gaza had just that day been taken over.
00:04:28.200 It wasn't sure if the U.S. government—first of all, the U.S. government doesn't acknowledge the state of Palestine.
00:04:32.260 And even in the confines of, you know, Palestinian territories, or occupied Palestinian territories, they were like, what is Gaza right now?
00:04:40.600 So they just put me down a stateless.
00:04:42.340 When I became a citizen, we had to basically shop around for a former country to put on the certificate.
00:04:50.820 And I was like, okay, fine.
00:04:52.400 I want, like, a fancy—I want to be a former, like, Luxembourg citizen or whatever.
00:04:57.400 But my choices came down to Saudi Arabia or Israel.
00:04:59.620 So I went with Saudi Arabia.
00:05:02.520 But so, yeah.
00:05:03.760 You're like a hard life, dude.
00:05:05.100 It was just like, you know.
00:05:07.000 And I was never a Saudi citizen, obviously.
00:05:09.620 But anyway, so that's who I am.
00:05:12.180 I worked in right before October 7th for the last eight years, up until two months ago.
00:05:16.820 My day job was working in international development, mainly in the Global South in Africa, with a philanthropic organization that does global health on poverty alleviation initiatives.
00:05:28.080 I also, in 2015, put myself out there on the map by building a nonprofit organization in the United States to build an internationally run Israeli-approved airport in the Gaza Strip.
00:05:43.400 And it was not just an infrastructure project, but it was meant to stabilize Gaza through a non-Egyptian and non-Israeli entry and exit point to facilitate freedom of movement for people and goods.
00:05:55.600 And it was meant to slowly pull the rug from underneath Hamas by internationalizing big-ticket items in the Gaza Strip and forcing their hand to avoid engaging in future confrontations.
00:06:08.640 So the reason why I bring that up is that it very much so played a role.
00:06:13.920 And we can talk about this later in where I am today.
00:06:17.140 What about your family?
00:06:17.880 Are they still in Gaza?
00:06:18.640 So many of them remained, and most of them, in fact, remained in Gaza.
00:06:23.220 None of them came with me to the United States.
00:06:25.260 And so over the years, a few of them managed to get out just in pursuit.
00:06:30.780 My brother's in Germany right now.
00:06:32.260 He was an UNRWA doctor.
00:06:34.520 He ran the beach clinic in there.
00:06:36.820 My father stayed, and he passed away four years ago.
00:06:40.260 But he ran the UNRWA, the UN Refugee and Works Agency Clinic, in Jabalia, which is now site to fierce fighting in northern Gaza.
00:06:50.360 My middle, my oldest brother is currently in Gaza.
00:06:53.600 He runs a major medical NGO.
00:06:56.520 He's a major director in there.
00:06:59.100 It's a British NGO.
00:07:01.700 And many, and my mom and other siblings stayed in there.
00:07:06.440 So did my immediate and extended family.
00:07:08.380 And what do you hear from them?
00:07:11.820 Well, unfortunately, it's been tragedy after tragedy since October 7.
00:07:17.600 I have lost a combined 31 now, 32 of my immediate and extended family.
00:07:25.700 The house that I grew up in, in Gaza City in the north, was destroyed by an Israeli airstrike on October 13.
00:07:34.360 Tomorrow, there were three separate airstrikes that got us to that number.
00:07:41.320 There was a, tomorrow actually is also the first anniversary of the second airstrike that also killed my cousin, my dad's youngest brother, Uncle Riyadh.
00:07:50.960 But the first two strikes on October 13 and October 25, they killed a 12-year-old niece, Farah, and wounded her identical twin very badly, destroyed my family home.
00:08:03.440 My brother and his wife and four children were inside the home when it was hit.
00:08:08.100 But he managed, they managed to push their way out of the rubble.
00:08:12.960 I got his wife and four children out of the Gaza Strip one day before the invasion of Rafa, through the Rafa border crossing.
00:08:20.760 I got a little bit of help from the U.S. government for the children, and then I had to do, everybody else had to do for my sister-in-law.
00:08:31.120 And then, yeah, unfortunately, we've lost contact.
00:08:33.960 And then we've lost contact with many of the surviving, my dad's two surviving brothers, Uncle Ibrahim and Uncle Imad, who are in northern Gaza.
00:08:45.760 I don't know, I mean, my immediate cousins, and these are people that I've been in contact with.
00:08:51.960 I mean, I've kept in contact with Gaza throughout my time.
00:08:54.920 I didn't just get a life in the United States and say, like, I love it here.
00:08:58.480 Like, you know, forget about Gaza.
00:08:59.960 Gaza was very much so a parallel universe for me.
00:09:03.860 And so I...
00:09:05.040 What does your brother tell you?
00:09:06.700 Because it sounds like he's on the ground dealing with, you know, what is going on there.
00:09:11.040 What do you hear from him?
00:09:11.960 It's difficult, painful, stressful.
00:09:16.400 He sends me daily updates.
00:09:18.260 We have daily check-ins multiple times a day because he's in the field.
00:09:23.120 He's working with a humanitarian.
00:09:25.220 He's bringing in the trucks, and he's bringing in supplies with his team, obviously,
00:09:29.940 and in cooperation with other NGOs and humanitarian organizations.
00:09:35.360 There's the internal problems with the breakdown of law and order.
00:09:42.320 There's Hamas and looters, and there's instability.
00:09:46.400 There's poverty, desperation, crowded, displaced zones, people fleeing multiple times.
00:09:54.860 Then there's Israeli airstrikes with drones, with quadcopters that have become particularly menacing.
00:10:01.060 These are, they deploy much smaller munitions, but they also do, they're very precise,
00:10:08.120 and they're very, like, you know, menacing because you can hear them whizzing around.
00:10:12.820 His home, he had another apartment.
00:10:15.520 He had to basically flee probably seven or eight different times throughout this war.
00:10:20.960 He's had to, they have safe houses for his organization where they work,
00:10:27.680 and they coordinate with the IDF and give the Israeli military their coordinates.
00:10:32.740 If they're bringing in shipments, like, they coordinate closely with the IDF,
00:10:37.020 but that still didn't prevent their safe house, unfortunately, from being hit a couple of times.
00:10:43.580 And they share resources with Doctors Without Borders and the International Rescue Committees
00:10:48.900 with Medical Aid for Palestinians, that's his organization.
00:10:52.200 So they've pulled resources.
00:10:54.020 And so it's a horrendous situation from Israeli bombardment, internal, just a society in turmoil
00:11:01.220 that's, like, completely broken down in terms of the cohesion, the prices of everything.
00:11:07.180 My goodness, the prices, he tells me, and I, they use shekels there and U.S. dollars,
00:11:11.840 shekels the Israeli currency, it is, I mean, horrendous.
00:11:16.440 Like, now a pack of cigarette costs $1,000.
00:11:20.580 Like, the war economy, yes, like, soap can cost $100.
00:11:27.100 Basically, like, Kleenex, I mean, the price of goods has, I've gone 10, 20, 30, 100x.
00:11:34.460 He once had, like, he once had a, he's a smoker, he had, like, a box of cigarettes.
00:11:44.160 And he got an offer for, like, $10,000 for that box of cigarettes.
00:11:49.100 I mean, it is that insane.
00:11:51.100 There's no cash coming in.
00:11:53.060 So there's a circular economy with just the dollars and the shekels.
00:11:57.420 There's only a single, a single, there was only a single ATM that was functioning.
00:12:03.380 That was the Bank of Palestine and Rafa.
00:12:05.260 I believe there's another single ATM in Kanyunis, or no, I think it's in Derbalah now.
00:12:11.460 And there's looters everywhere.
00:12:14.520 He described to me, for example, how 100, for example, of 100 trucks that recently came in, humanitarian aid trucks,
00:12:23.680 73 of them were looted and stolen by organized criminals.
00:12:28.280 He did say...
00:12:29.040 Do you mean Hamas or someone else?
00:12:30.340 So that's the interesting thing.
00:12:32.200 Some of them are Hamas or remnants of Hamas.
00:12:35.160 But he actually said that it's become more and more clear.
00:12:39.560 These are simply organized criminals.
00:12:41.880 I mean, remember Gaza had, like any society has, you know, a class of criminals who were released from jails.
00:12:50.520 And also when a lot of the clans and the families fled northern Gaza to the south, they fled with their guns and weaponry with them.
00:12:58.420 We're talking like AKs and small firearms.
00:13:03.080 But that enables them to engage in thuggery, engage in organized crime.
00:13:08.820 And there are, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to be made off a war economy.
00:13:15.100 So Hamas did, in fact, intercept many of the trucks that are coming in.
00:13:22.320 But we've got to also remember, we're not talking about a cohesive Hamas that's like this pyramid structure with, you know, Hamas from the top, issues orders to steal.
00:13:31.220 We're talking about disparate cells that are operating that, I mean, we're basically talking about a hundred different Hamases in the sense of even the guys that are holding the Israeli hostages.
00:13:41.780 They're not this cohesive, unified structure.
00:13:44.400 There's some communication left in between the Hamas in north, Hamas in Rafah, where Senwar was killed, Hamas in Khan Yunus or in Deir al-Balah in the central part of the Gaza Strip.
00:13:55.040 But they're not, like, coordinating their activities.
00:13:58.780 So remnants of Hamas, for example, from my brother and also a whole host of other contacts.
00:14:04.680 I don't just talk to my brother.
00:14:06.460 When I did the Gaza airport, I developed a large network of people in Gaza who, I mean, that's how, I don't know if you saw my piece in Newsweek.
00:14:14.120 I talked to Senwar in 2017 and I described that.
00:14:17.860 I didn't call him directly.
00:14:19.280 I used intermediaries to work with the sanctions.
00:14:22.600 But basically, let's pretend we have 20, let's use the number 20 of remnants of Hamas, whether it be Hamas's police, Hamas's internal security mechanism, Hamas's authoritative guys with guns, or even the Qassam guys, the Hamas, the militant wing people.
00:14:42.320 We haven't been paid.
00:14:43.780 We have no direct instructions on what to do.
00:14:47.380 We listen to Al Jazeera.
00:14:49.880 We listen to statements made on Facebook and social media and Twitter to understand what Hamas writ large is saying.
00:14:56.900 We'll get together and we have access to AKs.
00:15:00.780 We have access to rounds.
00:15:02.520 We have access to supplies that can enable us to exercise force and authority.
00:15:08.980 Some of these people will, the good ones on the police, for example, they'll take over a little area and they'll be like, we're going to make sure there's law and order.
00:15:20.860 We're going to, if we catch a thief, we'll shoot them and beat them up and deter people or whatever.
00:15:26.940 Others, they're like, screw this.
00:15:29.500 Like, let's basically be thugs and go ahead and take over trucks.
00:15:34.580 Or even better, let's now create this informal set of security companies that are, like, on the fly.
00:15:43.960 They're not, like, real companies.
00:15:45.540 But, like, let's offer our security services to humanitarian organizations, to UN organizations, to international organizations to say, okay, so you're bringing in a truck through the Karam Shalom or before it through the Rafah border crossing.
00:16:00.180 You're going to bring in 10 trucks?
00:16:02.360 We'd like to have two trucks, please.
00:16:05.180 Or you're bringing in one truck?
00:16:06.920 Like, what are you going to give me out of this truck for me to, so, and then they either, they barter things with, you know, whatever they gain from these trucks, or they'll go ahead and actually sell it and make money that way.
00:16:20.480 Then they'll, so that now there's actually this whole informal economy where any organization that wants to bring in supplies in the Gaza Strip humanitarian NGOs and nonprofits,
00:16:31.820 you pretty much have to coordinate with thugs, with clans, or with remnants of Hamas.
00:16:39.740 And I'm not, to be clear, I'm not saying, like, organizations are sitting there and talking to Hamas and saying, like, I'm just saying it's, like, a lot more loose than that.
00:16:48.860 But otherwise, your supplies are going to get looted and stolen.
00:16:52.740 So you have guys with AKs that take care of securing your supplies.
00:16:58.500 You have clans now, the powerful clans that, unfortunately, Prime Minister Netanyahu thought somehow are going to replace Hamas.
00:17:07.440 They are running the routes.
00:17:09.680 They have hundreds of their guys in full view, by the way, of Israeli intelligence and surveillance assets with guns, with the sole purpose of commandeering incoming humanitarian aid.
00:17:22.300 This is why I've been a proponent of the airdrops idea, and I've worked really hard.
00:17:26.520 It's inefficient, it's dangerous, it's got problems, but at least you're spreading the supplies as best as you can to minimize the chance of looters or Hamas.
00:17:37.200 So going back to just your question, it is convenient for some in the pro-Israel camp to say, oh, well, Hamas is just stealing everything.
00:17:47.280 Hamas has and does steal some of the aid indeed, but it is actually far more complicated than simply Hamas,
00:17:54.160 because you have a lot of organized criminals and people haven't worked for a year.
00:17:58.420 There's nothing to earn money.
00:18:00.200 So this is this is the only source of income for many people.
00:18:05.300 And it's not just the desperate.
00:18:06.840 I'm not talking about the desperate people, which form probably, according to some estimate, maybe like 15 percent of the looters.
00:18:14.600 The other, you know, 85 percent of the looters are mainly organized criminals and to a certain, perhaps lesser extent, remnants of Hamas.
00:18:25.040 The picture you're painting, Ahmed, is obviously awful.
00:18:28.700 Do Hamas still have widespread support within Gaza or have they lost the average Palestinian?
00:18:35.580 Absolutely. And this is something that is essentially my raison d'etre and putting myself out there since October 7th,
00:18:43.980 is that despite what we saw initially of the few thousand people who either went into Israel when the wall went down or celebrated it,
00:18:54.280 we're talking still about, what, 5,000, 10,000 people that may have celebrated this overtly endorsed Hamas out of a population of 2.3 million people,
00:19:06.940 half of whom weren't born when Hamas was elected in 2006.
00:19:10.940 Over time, and especially now, Hamas's support is absolutely in the toilet.
00:19:16.680 And I'll tell you why.
00:19:17.500 Imagine yourself, I mean, forget the, like, big picture conflict, forget all the, like, let's just bring it down to, like, your day-to-day life.
00:19:27.020 If you're standing in a dirty, disgusting line to use a bathroom with 500 other people,
00:19:32.580 if your kid has a cold and you can't get him a Tylenol or you can't get him a painkiller,
00:19:38.340 if you're having to pay $1,000 for a pack of cigarettes that you don't have,
00:19:42.880 if and if and if and if and if you've been displaced, you're really not going to sit there and say,
00:19:48.680 wow, October 7th was, there's a solid, like, Hamas is great, like, Senwar really had a strategy.
00:19:55.380 When you're seeing Hamas and taking care of their people, because there are Hamas members,
00:20:02.140 and we'll talk about, you know, the tiers of support for Hamas as well as the tiers of opposition for Hamas.
00:20:08.860 But Hamas does the aid that they siphon, for example.
00:20:13.060 They ensure that they get their members and their families supplies before everybody else does.
00:20:20.220 There are tents, for example, in a tent city, and people will infer who are affiliated with Hamas
00:20:27.420 by the tents that get more aid than others.
00:20:30.900 So it's a very unequal and unjust distribution system.
00:20:34.240 We've seen video after video after video after post, in Arabic mainly, of Palestinians,
00:20:43.920 of women and children and elderly people, decrying Hamas' behavior,
00:20:51.360 saying, why is Hamas hiding amongst us?
00:20:54.060 Why is Hamas keeping this war?
00:20:57.000 Turn over the hostages.
00:20:58.100 We've seen protests, we've seen small efforts of the people of Gaza crying out loud and saying,
00:21:04.820 we don't want Hamas, we don't want this war, we don't want Senwar, we don't want this.
00:21:10.020 But they're helpless to stop Hamas, because at the end of the day, they're the guys with the guns.
00:21:14.020 They're stuck, on the one hand, between a ruthless terror organization that cares nothing for their well-being.
00:21:21.760 And by the way, one of the things that really began the demise of Hamas' popularity in Gaza
00:21:29.480 is that for the first, I would say, six months of the war,
00:21:34.180 Hamas' mouthpieces and leaders would brag about how we built these tunnels to enable us to fight on forever.
00:21:42.920 However, we've amassed enough supplies to keep us going for multiple years to fight the Israelis.
00:21:50.280 Even if we lose control, administrative control,
00:21:53.540 our, you know, our preparations over the years have gotten us to a place where we can carry out an insurgency.
00:22:00.620 And they would say this as if to get people in Gaza to say, like, yeah, Hamas.
00:22:05.140 And it had the opposite effect.
00:22:07.100 People in Gaza were like, oh, yeah, so you stacked all these supplies,
00:22:10.080 and you didn't think to build one bomb shelter for us.
00:22:12.920 You didn't think to put one strategic reserve of critical materials and items and food
00:22:19.860 to prevent the famine-like conditions.
00:22:21.740 So the degradation of Hamas, the levels of support for Hamas,
00:22:27.900 has been not only steady, but it has been worsened by Hamas' own statements and behavior
00:22:35.620 to try to stop that degradation.
00:22:38.420 The other thing, there's the issue of the infamous polls,
00:22:40.960 which the IDF alleges to have found documents showing that Hamas doctored
00:22:47.900 and significantly manipulated and skewed the results of these polls to show support in Gaza.
00:22:54.900 I'm talking about Gaza.
00:22:56.020 The West Bank is a whole different other story, and we can talk about it separately and later.
00:22:59.780 I didn't need the IDF to allege to have found these documents to tell me that people in Gaza have been turning in mass
00:23:08.860 against the terror group for destroying their lives, for squandering opportunity after opportunity
00:23:14.620 to bring this war to an end, for squandering billions of dollars into this tunnel resistance enterprise.
00:23:21.720 And also, I will say, unfortunately, there are people who may have supported Hamas in the past
00:23:28.820 or soon after October 7th, but it's all coming full picture, not just because of the consequences
00:23:36.520 of Hamas' actions, not just because they lost their homes, they lost their families,
00:23:40.580 but they're seeing how Hamas behaves.
00:23:42.940 They're seeing that there's no strategy.
00:23:44.760 They're seeing that this is merely a nihilistic exercise of suicidal adventurism.
00:23:50.240 They're seeing how Hamas is basically as part of this axis of resistance
00:23:54.620 on behalf of the Islamic Republic of Iran and working with the Houthis and Hezbollah,
00:23:59.280 that we are pawns.
00:24:00.840 And this is, you know, it's coming together to where I actually think, unlike anything
00:24:07.640 I've ever seen, there is actually delegitimization of the idea of resistance.
00:24:13.940 So you have people that supported Hamas who hated Islamism.
00:24:18.840 They hated Hamas itself, but they liked the idea, broad idea of resistance.
00:24:24.000 That idea has been propagated since 1948, essentially.
00:24:28.040 And, you know, the PLO engaged in resistance.
00:24:31.160 The PFLP engaged in resistance.
00:24:33.620 The pan-Arabism of Nasser was a form of resistance to the Zionist entity.
00:24:39.440 And Hamas, then now the Islamism.
00:24:41.400 So, like, different ideologies, but essentially carrying the same narrative of resistance.
00:24:48.340 I actually think now, and this is my own personal assessment,
00:24:53.020 there's a gradual delegitimization.
00:24:55.740 In a Gaza context, again, not the West Bank.
00:24:58.860 Gaza and the West Bank are so different culturally, politically, in a variety of ways.
00:25:03.540 Like, this idea that you're going to have a centralized Palestinian government
00:25:06.620 that runs both is nonsense at this point.
00:25:09.780 I do believe Gaza and the West Bank should be a part of a unified Palestinian structure.
00:25:14.340 We'll talk about that later.
00:25:16.120 The idea of resistance itself, people are asking questions about it.
00:25:21.440 And I'm seeing people saying, so, resistance for the sake of resistance?
00:25:26.500 What does that, like, what does that get us other than death and destruction?
00:25:29.880 Or resistance for the sake of simply keeping this conflict alive,
00:25:35.360 which is what Hamas thinks is basically, now is their strategies.
00:25:39.600 Maximize Palestinian casualties to delegitimize Israel.
00:25:43.400 Keep the conflict alive as long as you can.
00:25:45.940 Because, oh, we have protesters in the West, which is ironic.
00:25:49.980 At a time when people in Gaza are turning against Hamas en masse,
00:25:54.000 you have imbeciles in Western capitals and here in New York and in B.C.
00:25:58.520 flying Hamas and Hezbollah flags, cheering on the armed resistance narrative.
00:26:03.780 Out in the open, legitimizing, celebrating, and supporting a terror organization.
00:26:11.260 And I'm not just talking about a terror organization just principally.
00:26:14.240 I'm not talking about an organization that has literally triggered
00:26:17.560 the most deadly, destructive chapter in Palestinian contemporary history.
00:26:21.620 Worse than the Nakba of 1948.
00:26:25.480 And so, the people of Gaza, unfortunately, there's a disconnect.
00:26:29.900 And that goes back to what I said earlier.
00:26:32.620 Like, my raison d'etre for putting myself out there
00:26:35.280 is to actually demonstrate the folly of the Israel and Palestine discourse
00:26:40.720 in a diaspora context versus how the people who are impacted by it the most
00:26:45.400 on the ground who are paying the ultimate price.
00:26:49.680 There's a complete disconnect and breakdown.
00:26:52.100 All of this is also not to excuse or to say the people in Gaza aren't furious at Israel
00:26:58.960 and aren't furious at the conduct of the war.
00:27:02.980 And they're not exactly thinking of Israel as a liberator.
00:27:06.420 Even though I will tell you, and I will put the entirety of my reputation on the line here,
00:27:11.960 and I will say confidently, there were numerous people in Gaza early on,
00:27:16.660 in the very early stages of the war, who were privately like,
00:27:21.380 maybe Israel will do us a favor and kind of get rid of Hamas.
00:27:25.440 And that very quickly, unfortunately, when the scale of the death and destruction
00:27:29.900 and this, like, clear and leave strategy, and then Hamas would respawn or come back,
00:27:37.480 and then Israel would come back in, and then Hamas would leave.
00:27:40.660 Like, when it became this vicious cycle of death and destruction, people were like,
00:27:46.260 we thought Israel, like, actually had a strategy.
00:27:48.900 And it seems like they're the, the Israeli strategy, in a sense, is the other equivalent.
00:27:55.800 Hamas wants to prolong this war for as long as possible to keep the protests going
00:27:59.960 and delegitimize Israel and turn this, like, the whole region on fire.
00:28:04.260 They feel that Israel now is, the Israeli government in particular,
00:28:09.220 and the government of Prime Minister Netanyahu are prolonging the war
00:28:12.740 so that he can have his coalition of far-right extremists sticking around until the next election
00:28:19.680 so that he can stay out of jail.
00:28:21.700 Like, so they genuinely feel stuck between those two powers.
00:28:26.080 But what gives me hope is that they, I don't think,
00:28:30.040 the reason why I think this is going to be Gaza's last war is that I don't think Hamas will ever again
00:28:36.880 be able to manipulate people in Gaza into accepting a scenario in which Hamas runs them,
00:28:43.640 in which Hamas basically oppresses the Palestinian people there in the name of resistance to Israel.
00:28:49.120 I think there is a fundamental once-in-a-generation shift as a result of not just the consequences of October 7th,
00:28:58.240 that's a really important distinction, because a lot of the pro-Israel people, they're like,
00:29:02.720 well, the people that are turning on Hamas, they're only doing so because now there's a deadly, you know, war,
00:29:08.860 and only because of the consequences.
00:29:11.380 It's not just that.
00:29:12.760 It's how Hamas has behaved on the ground, in the field, how the leadership has behaved,
00:29:18.380 the hotel leadership, how Hamas is so clearly uninterested in the suffering of the Palestinian people.
00:29:24.920 Khaled Mishal, the group's leader in Qatar, a senior group leader.
00:29:31.540 There have been memes about him over the last three weeks because he gave, on the October 7th anniversary,
00:29:38.680 he said that, he infamously said,
00:29:41.600 our losses are tactical, Israel's losses are strategic.
00:29:46.160 And that literally inflamed the Palestinian people in Gaza, the diaspora.
00:29:53.420 How dare you call my niece and nephew and uncle and tactical losses?
00:29:59.660 How dare you say that the annihilation of Gaza is always just a tactical thing and it's no big deal.
00:30:06.320 But Israel, which has the Iron Dome, which has billions more in dollars in funding,
00:30:11.940 which still has the economy is still functioning, is fighting a multi-front war.
00:30:17.820 It seems to me that Israel is kind of doing just fine in the sense that like their society
00:30:23.400 has not had the death and destruction that we've had.
00:30:26.360 So that, I think, just the totality of those threads that I just shared, and much more,
00:30:33.260 confirmed to me that the people in Gaza, en masse, have turned against Hamas.
00:30:37.740 It doesn't mean they're loving Israel and saying we love Israel,
00:30:41.640 but this is an opportunity to shape the next generation of Palestinian governors in Gaza.
00:30:47.980 Well, I'm very glad that you say that, Akramanda.
00:30:50.060 We have a lot of pro-Israeli guests on, and they say that Israel's war against Hamas has been proportionate.
00:30:58.760 The IDF have done everything that they possibly can to limit civilian casualties.
00:31:03.960 Where do you stand on that?
00:31:05.980 So, on the one hand, I mean, multiple things are true at once.
00:31:11.580 Do I think there's a breakdown between what orders are given up top versus how field commanders exercise them?
00:31:21.240 A hundred percent.
00:31:22.100 The Israelis themselves have said that.
00:31:24.180 And there have been Times of Israel pieces, Yad'ot Ahranot,
00:31:27.660 and all these other mainline headlines that say how field commanders are sloppy,
00:31:33.240 they're lax, they're indifferent, they're exhausted,
00:31:36.160 and they just give their sergeants and their officers permission to get sloppy in how they apply firepower.
00:31:45.320 Obviously, a lot of Israeli soldiers are afraid and scared,
00:31:48.120 and I think they're going to lean more towards being overly cautious
00:31:51.520 by applying excessive suppressive fire to a certain area.
00:31:56.760 There's two types of targeting that result in the casualties.
00:32:02.400 So, there's, like, the airstrikes or the artillery strikes,
00:32:05.720 and that's where you do have this, like, cycle of intel, target selection, target approval,
00:32:14.180 selection of the munitions and the firepower, and then the actual execution of the strike.
00:32:19.980 And then there is the targeting that happens in the field, the tactical,
00:32:24.700 that, like, we have a squad, and we're going through from house to house
00:32:28.940 with tanks here and with the drones overhead and whatever,
00:32:33.180 and then we get a couple of bullets fired our way.
00:32:37.520 There's an entirely different structure to how you respond to this incoming fire,
00:32:43.020 and it's not the cycle that is precise and uses intelligence and uses mitigation strategies.
00:32:49.720 It's like, we have fire from here, like, let's,
00:32:53.500 the tank starts firing and the quadcopters start firing,
00:32:56.220 and the soldiers start spraying, and sometimes that happens when civilians are in the area.
00:33:01.500 Sometimes you apply a ring of fire beyond just the immediate area where you're in.
00:33:06.120 So, I think there have been absolutely careless cases on mass scale.
00:33:13.760 I mean...
00:33:14.220 But that thing you're talking about, I'm sorry to interrupt,
00:33:16.480 but that thing you're talking about is true of all war and always has been, right?
00:33:20.360 If you're walking through a neighborhood and people start shooting at you,
00:33:23.260 you're going to do everything you possibly can to neutralize that threat,
00:33:28.280 and if civilians are there, they shouldn't have been there in the first place,
00:33:32.520 as you mentioned, right?
00:33:33.940 But if they're there, they're going to be collateral damage in that situation.
00:33:37.080 That was true of World War II.
00:33:39.020 It's true of the war in Iraq.
00:33:40.280 It's true of the one...
00:33:40.820 It's true of every war in human history, really.
00:33:42.940 But then why go out of your way to say that the IDF
00:33:47.360 and have people like John Spencer acting as effective mouthpieces for the IDF
00:33:53.020 and say that there's never been a war this clean and this moral and this amazing,
00:33:58.540 like, then say that and accept that as an inevitability.
00:34:02.640 But those two things aren't in contradiction, surely.
00:34:05.260 You could say that this is...
00:34:07.880 And I don't know.
00:34:08.820 I've heard a lot of people make that argument that you're making
00:34:11.380 or that you're claiming other people make.
00:34:13.920 But something could be the most humane way to wage a war
00:34:18.580 in which civilians still inevitably and tragically get killed.
00:34:21.800 Those two things could happen at once, right?
00:34:24.100 They could, potentially.
00:34:25.640 But when we see time after time after time,
00:34:28.640 civilians and children in Times of Israel
00:34:31.040 and the Washington Post just corroborated this video from Jabalya
00:34:35.480 in which a 13-year-old child was hit and they got their name.
00:34:38.800 Israeli press, a quadcopter, hit this child.
00:34:42.480 He's killed.
00:34:43.160 People come to try to rescue him.
00:34:45.260 They're bombed and attacked.
00:34:46.840 I saw that.
00:34:48.000 But what I'm saying is something different.
00:34:49.820 This is not to negate the significance of that
00:34:52.400 or the tragedy of civilians being killed.
00:34:54.480 I'm just saying it's an empirical question, right?
00:34:57.860 I believe, by the way...
00:34:59.520 So I guess what I'm...
00:35:01.340 I don't know much about it.
00:35:03.020 That's why you're here, because you know and I don't.
00:35:05.340 But if you're uncomfortable with the framing of this being a war
00:35:10.380 that is fought as cleanly as possible,
00:35:12.400 I guess the question is what conflict in recent history
00:35:15.820 would you put forward as a more humane one?
00:35:19.260 Certainly.
00:35:19.840 But I think there's...
00:35:22.000 First of all, those civilians that are there.
00:35:24.040 Sometimes civilians are there because they have no choice.
00:35:27.500 Sometimes Hamas has gotten in the way
00:35:29.900 and they basically want civilians to stick around
00:35:32.900 so that to cause casualty.
00:35:34.940 I have sent proposal after proposal
00:35:38.560 to several Israeli officials
00:35:40.000 for what do we do now that Egypt closed its border
00:35:43.980 and Egypt is never going to open its border
00:35:45.960 to allowing civilians to be in Sinai.
00:35:48.560 We have these safe zones that also get struck and get attacked.
00:35:52.320 We have the lack of security,
00:35:53.840 the lack of places for the civilians to go.
00:35:57.440 I've called for...
00:35:59.300 And some Israelis supported me in this
00:36:01.140 for camps for women and children
00:36:03.420 on the Israeli side of the border of Gaza
00:36:05.560 temporarily until the war is over.
00:36:08.860 Unfortunately, you can't...
00:36:11.240 I don't believe that the official Israeli policy
00:36:15.280 is to cause maximum civilian casualties.
00:36:18.120 I personally don't believe that.
00:36:19.360 However, there are numerous Israeli commanders
00:36:23.400 and individual soldiers
00:36:25.160 who are vengeful,
00:36:27.880 who are traumatized by what happened on October 7th,
00:36:31.120 and who, quite honestly, like, that's what I mean.
00:36:33.780 Like, they will take potshots at Palestinian kids.
00:36:36.720 We saw that story in the New York Times
00:36:38.900 and I shared the x-rays
00:36:40.800 and people were losing their minds.
00:36:42.420 That has been debunked, you know,
00:36:43.820 by firearms experts.
00:36:45.440 And the New York Times stood by those x-rays
00:36:49.300 and I've seen...
00:36:50.900 I don't...
00:36:51.380 Again, even if this particular x-ray,
00:36:54.700 which was, by the way, a 2D x-ray,
00:36:56.780 like, there's...
00:36:57.780 If this particular x-ray doesn't stand,
00:37:00.740 I still know personally of people
00:37:03.600 in the medical field who saw firsthand.
00:37:05.980 Well, no one would deny
00:37:06.980 that innocent civilians have been shot,
00:37:09.300 but that particular story
00:37:10.800 has been pretty thoroughly debunked
00:37:12.580 by people who say that's not what a gunshot looks like
00:37:16.200 and that's not what a bullet looks like
00:37:17.440 after it's entered the human head.
00:37:19.000 I don't want to focus on these details.
00:37:20.440 I guess I'm...
00:37:21.080 And I'm not even challenging what you're saying
00:37:23.720 because I'm not knowledgeable enough to challenge it.
00:37:26.060 I'm just asking the question.
00:37:28.280 Your point seems to be
00:37:29.560 that there are civilian casualties,
00:37:31.180 which no one denies.
00:37:32.520 And I think it's tragic that there are.
00:37:36.120 But if you're disputing the claim
00:37:38.700 that some people make,
00:37:39.480 which is what Francis asked you about originally,
00:37:41.020 that's why...
00:37:41.440 That's all I'm trying to get to.
00:37:42.820 If you're disputing the idea
00:37:44.460 that Israel is prosecuting this war
00:37:46.420 more humanely than other conflicts,
00:37:49.920 I guess it's then on you to say,
00:37:51.740 well, you know, the war in Vietnam
00:37:53.260 or the war in Afghanistan
00:37:54.360 or the war in there
00:37:55.300 or the war in here
00:37:56.000 has been prosecuted more humanely.
00:37:58.480 But is that so?
00:37:59.600 Yes.
00:37:59.780 Like, is that...
00:38:00.520 I don't...
00:38:02.520 Because everything is a matter of comparison, right?
00:38:04.960 Like, we can only be the most humane.
00:38:07.960 We can't have a war
00:38:08.840 in which no civilians get killed
00:38:10.240 because the practical reality
00:38:12.160 of fighting urban warfare
00:38:14.220 is, particularly as you say yourself,
00:38:16.540 when Hamas wants to maximize
00:38:17.920 civilian casualties,
00:38:19.320 is very tragically,
00:38:20.800 people are going to be killed.
00:38:22.340 So then we have to compare, right?
00:38:25.120 What I'm mainly pushing for,
00:38:26.980 and I...
00:38:27.220 is I want those Israeli claims
00:38:30.360 that we're doing everything we can
00:38:33.560 to minimize civilian casualties,
00:38:35.040 to be backed up by actual realities
00:38:37.760 on the ground and actual actions.
00:38:39.580 When you're targeting a 13-year-old boy
00:38:42.540 and people come in to save him
00:38:45.340 and you target those people,
00:38:46.560 and we've seen that time and again,
00:38:48.720 the child hen that was killed
00:38:51.540 and the ambulances,
00:38:52.400 we've seen hundreds of examples
00:38:54.580 that are well-documented
00:38:55.720 that show otherwise.
00:38:57.080 So that's what I'm asking for.
00:38:58.880 It's good.
00:38:59.580 Israel, like, let's match your...
00:39:01.000 Well, hold on.
00:39:01.400 I'm not disagreeing with that.
00:39:02.980 I mean, look, genuinely,
00:39:04.180 you mentioned before you came on the show
00:39:05.980 that you love our show
00:39:07.680 because of the intellectual curiosity,
00:39:09.300 and that's all I'm doing here, genuinely.
00:39:11.380 I'm just...
00:39:11.540 For sure, for sure.
00:39:12.340 And I don't have that answer
00:39:13.740 on what war is fought cleanly.
00:39:15.680 I don't have that answer.
00:39:16.540 Well, right.
00:39:17.360 And that's kind of the issue here
00:39:18.860 because what...
00:39:21.060 Forgive me for laying it out like this,
00:39:22.460 but what often happens
00:39:23.660 when you pose that question to people
00:39:25.520 is they go to the example,
00:39:30.200 the single example,
00:39:31.260 and they say,
00:39:31.640 well, did you see that video?
00:39:32.860 Yes, I did see that video.
00:39:34.420 I also have never seen a war
00:39:35.920 in which that sort of thing hasn't happened.
00:39:38.000 It's happening right now
00:39:39.240 to my family in Ukraine,
00:39:40.740 and it's just as tragic
00:39:42.080 as when it happens to your family in Gaza.
00:39:44.520 These are the same terrible things.
00:39:47.780 But that's what war is.
00:39:49.720 That's why war is terrible, right?
00:39:51.340 So when Francis asked you
00:39:54.320 about the fact
00:39:55.780 that some pro-Israel guests
00:39:57.520 have claimed on our show
00:39:59.140 that Israel is doing everything it can,
00:40:02.820 that's not the same as them saying
00:40:04.540 Israel is behaving impeccably.
00:40:07.300 It's saying that within the context
00:40:09.920 of violent military conflict
00:40:11.760 in which complex explosive weapons
00:40:14.580 and all sorts of other firearms
00:40:15.840 and weapons are used,
00:40:18.080 they are doing the most
00:40:20.020 of any army in history
00:40:21.580 to limit civilian casualties.
00:40:23.680 And that could be true
00:40:24.860 at the same time
00:40:26.520 as innocent children
00:40:27.720 being blown up by bombs.
00:40:29.140 Those two things
00:40:29.820 are not incompatible tragically.
00:40:31.680 Do you hear what I'm saying?
00:40:32.480 Certainly, certainly.
00:40:33.480 But I've,
00:40:34.880 basically,
00:40:35.340 I've already agreed with you
00:40:36.720 by saying that
00:40:37.600 I don't believe
00:40:38.520 it is official Israeli policy
00:40:40.400 to deliberately cause
00:40:42.360 maximum civilian casualties.
00:40:43.640 But at the end of the day,
00:40:45.640 I have 31 dead family members
00:40:48.140 from three separate airstrikes
00:40:49.580 and I have no idea
00:40:51.080 why they're dead.
00:40:52.180 I have no idea.
00:40:53.700 Like,
00:40:53.980 and I can't sit here
00:40:55.340 and this is maybe
00:40:56.520 where I do lose my objectivity
00:40:58.560 and I'm fine with that.
00:41:00.100 Yeah.
00:41:00.940 If you,
00:41:01.460 if,
00:41:02.100 I mean,
00:41:02.580 the New York Times
00:41:03.460 when the really deadly airstrike
00:41:05.540 that killed 29 people
00:41:06.760 happened on December 14th
00:41:08.220 in Rafah,
00:41:08.920 when it was a safe zone
00:41:10.280 and Amnesty International
00:41:11.720 did a whole report on it
00:41:14.040 and the New York Times
00:41:15.000 did a whole report
00:41:16.000 on what happened to my family.
00:41:17.460 They reached out to the IDF
00:41:18.660 and they said,
00:41:20.060 why are there 14 children dead?
00:41:24.160 Children,
00:41:24.700 three and four months old,
00:41:25.880 babies shredded to bits and pieces.
00:41:27.700 Like,
00:41:28.020 at least the IDF can tell us
00:41:30.100 what did you target in there?
00:41:31.960 What was in that strike
00:41:33.280 that you felt
00:41:34.380 outweighs
00:41:36.220 the death
00:41:37.440 of all of these civilians?
00:41:39.180 And I know them
00:41:40.000 all by name
00:41:41.120 and from my aunts
00:41:42.700 and uncles,
00:41:43.320 all of my aunts
00:41:44.280 and uncles
00:41:44.640 on my mom's side
00:41:45.520 perished in that strike
00:41:46.880 that were in the house.
00:41:49.000 The least the IDF could do
00:41:51.260 is be like,
00:41:52.640 well,
00:41:53.020 there was a particular target
00:41:54.720 because it was
00:41:55.320 a designated safe zone
00:41:56.400 and people in northern Gaza,
00:41:58.680 family members
00:41:59.180 from the north,
00:42:00.000 they fled from the north.
00:42:01.180 They hated the IDF warnings
00:42:02.560 and they headed south
00:42:03.980 to a safe zone
00:42:04.780 only to be killed
00:42:05.780 in the safe zone.
00:42:07.020 So,
00:42:07.960 that is a lot more nefarious
00:42:09.640 than just all bad.
00:42:11.480 Like,
00:42:11.820 that is deliberate.
00:42:12.840 That was a deliberate airstrike
00:42:14.440 and I think
00:42:15.240 the only way
00:42:16.220 in which you can make it
00:42:17.460 fit in this broader context
00:42:19.720 of
00:42:20.080 we're minimizing
00:42:21.200 civilian casualties
00:42:22.180 but it's deadly
00:42:23.040 is
00:42:23.440 show me,
00:42:24.420 show me that,
00:42:25.140 like,
00:42:25.420 what did you,
00:42:25.860 what did you kill?
00:42:26.640 Like,
00:42:26.960 who was the,
00:42:28.580 who was important enough
00:42:30.440 for you to kill
00:42:31.200 14 children
00:42:32.160 and all these family members,
00:42:34.680 the elderly people?
00:42:35.600 It's like,
00:42:36.580 but that's,
00:42:37.580 you take that
00:42:38.260 and you multiply it
00:42:39.140 by hundreds
00:42:39.760 if not thousands
00:42:40.480 of cases.
00:42:41.420 So,
00:42:41.560 that's where
00:42:42.180 I can,
00:42:43.820 I don't even think
00:42:44.560 we're disagreeing.
00:42:45.400 I think we agree actually.
00:42:46.800 I just think,
00:42:47.780 understandably,
00:42:48.580 you feel very strongly
00:42:49.340 about those things
00:42:49.960 as I do too.
00:42:51.700 So,
00:42:52.460 with a little bit
00:42:53.040 more distance,
00:42:54.000 I can sort of go,
00:42:55.740 that's awful
00:42:56.500 and terrible
00:42:57.620 and yet,
00:42:59.040 when you have war,
00:43:00.640 that is what happened.
00:43:01.480 I mean,
00:43:01.780 look at what happened
00:43:02.480 in Mosul,
00:43:03.440 in Iraq,
00:43:04.060 look at how
00:43:04.540 these Egyptian military
00:43:05.900 fought in northern Sinai.
00:43:08.060 I mean,
00:43:08.220 they wiped out
00:43:08.900 Egyptian Rafah.
00:43:09.920 They moved,
00:43:10.680 literally the whole town
00:43:11.540 of Egyptian Rafah
00:43:12.360 was eliminated.
00:43:13.720 And,
00:43:13.960 so can I tell you
00:43:15.460 a little something?
00:43:16.060 Yes,
00:43:16.240 for sure.
00:43:16.800 I was talking to
00:43:18.140 a pro-Palestine individual
00:43:19.980 yesterday
00:43:20.500 who's very prominent
00:43:22.220 in the Arab
00:43:23.820 and Muslim community
00:43:24.720 to try to build bridges
00:43:26.780 and build partnerships.
00:43:28.560 And,
00:43:29.040 they subjected me
00:43:30.300 to a seat,
00:43:30.900 just to even
00:43:31.660 have the conversation,
00:43:32.980 they subjected me
00:43:34.040 to a series
00:43:34.600 of litmus tests.
00:43:36.420 And,
00:43:36.880 it was really bizarre.
00:43:38.120 And,
00:43:38.240 I was like,
00:43:38.480 okay,
00:43:38.700 fine,
00:43:38.940 I'll play along.
00:43:39.660 The first one was like,
00:43:40.760 do you believe
00:43:41.360 that what Israel's doing
00:43:42.360 in Gaza is genocide?
00:43:44.500 And,
00:43:44.860 I said,
00:43:45.480 no,
00:43:45.760 I do not believe
00:43:46.440 it is genocide.
00:43:47.280 I think there are
00:43:48.200 numerous war crimes
00:43:49.720 that have been committed.
00:43:51.520 I think there have been
00:43:52.460 horrendous events
00:43:53.820 that Israeli leaders
00:43:55.020 should be held
00:43:55.680 accountable for.
00:43:56.460 But,
00:43:56.780 I do not believe
00:43:57.720 that Israel's
00:43:58.720 official policy
00:44:00.360 in Gaza
00:44:01.000 is genocide.
00:44:02.640 I think there are
00:44:03.620 genocidal members
00:44:04.980 of the Israeli government.
00:44:06.320 Absolutely.
00:44:07.080 But,
00:44:07.340 they don't have the power,
00:44:08.800 nor are they
00:44:09.620 directly,
00:44:11.120 at least,
00:44:12.180 and explicitly,
00:44:13.500 and from a legal
00:44:14.440 point of view,
00:44:16.160 setting the policy
00:44:17.180 of genocide
00:44:17.700 in Israel.
00:44:18.880 In Gaza,
00:44:19.740 rather.
00:44:20.220 A policy of genocide.
00:44:22.540 So,
00:44:22.960 multiple,
00:44:23.860 so they,
00:44:24.460 and they were just
00:44:25.360 shell-shocked.
00:44:26.060 They just looked at me,
00:44:26.920 they were like,
00:44:27.240 wait,
00:44:27.980 but you lost,
00:44:28.840 like,
00:44:29.020 Israel killed
00:44:29.660 all of these
00:44:30.240 family members,
00:44:30.880 and you've written
00:44:31.520 passionately about this,
00:44:32.940 and you've spoken so,
00:44:34.360 and I said,
00:44:34.920 it is precisely
00:44:35.860 that point.
00:44:36.580 I think the whole
00:44:37.420 genocide this,
00:44:38.700 or genocide that,
00:44:39.340 has become a distraction,
00:44:41.080 and it's become
00:44:41.900 this obsession with,
00:44:43.660 like,
00:44:43.900 when I learned English,
00:44:44.860 and I was in Gaza,
00:44:45.920 I had a great
00:44:47.600 British teacher
00:44:48.280 who said to me,
00:44:50.040 show,
00:44:50.700 don't tell.
00:44:52.220 Like,
00:44:52.460 show the facts,
00:44:53.380 describe them,
00:44:54.600 kind of paint the picture,
00:44:55.880 and then let people,
00:44:57.440 kind of,
00:44:57.940 don't prescriptively say,
00:45:00.500 I think it's genocide,
00:45:01.780 I think it's this,
00:45:02.520 I think it's that.
00:45:03.160 For me,
00:45:03.840 it's like,
00:45:04.320 no,
00:45:04.620 there's the suffering,
00:45:05.960 here's the facts,
00:45:07.160 here's how Hamas fights,
00:45:08.380 here's what the Israelis do,
00:45:09.840 here's the horror
00:45:10.760 that happened to my family members.
00:45:12.400 It's like,
00:45:13.380 it's really difficult
00:45:14.400 to exercise
00:45:15.160 when people are so emotional
00:45:16.860 about this issue,
00:45:17.660 but what I'm trying to model
00:45:18.980 is,
00:45:19.680 I have the most skin
00:45:20.720 in the game in this,
00:45:21.640 and that literally
00:45:22.320 half of my fucking family
00:45:23.400 is dead,
00:45:24.160 and yet,
00:45:24.680 I am saying,
00:45:26.300 this shuts down doors
00:45:28.360 that don't need to be shut,
00:45:30.080 this raises the temperature,
00:45:32.600 this becomes a distraction
00:45:34.420 into,
00:45:35.160 like,
00:45:35.260 a separate,
00:45:35.840 if somebody wants to adjudicate
00:45:37.500 genocide or not,
00:45:38.560 like,
00:45:38.760 that's fine,
00:45:39.680 that's separately,
00:45:40.700 but,
00:45:40.980 like,
00:45:41.160 let's not have the conversation
00:45:42.720 dictated by the need
00:45:44.000 to say that Israel
00:45:45.460 is intentionally killing
00:45:46.880 every single child
00:45:48.000 in Gaza,
00:45:49.240 when I don't believe
00:45:50.120 that that is the policy,
00:45:52.020 even though they have killed
00:45:53.560 a lot of children
00:45:54.340 in Gaza.
00:45:55.160 Look,
00:45:55.720 I'm completely in agreement
00:45:56.940 with you,
00:45:57.560 and as somebody
00:45:59.000 who has family in Lebanon,
00:46:00.880 I get very angry
00:46:02.420 and very frustrated
00:46:03.680 with the way
00:46:04.780 I see certain activists
00:46:06.360 on the left
00:46:07.180 who,
00:46:08.000 like you said,
00:46:08.560 don't really have skin
00:46:09.520 in the game
00:46:10.140 talking about this war.
00:46:14.000 What do you think
00:46:14.840 about those types,
00:46:16.300 those commentators,
00:46:18.720 the Ta-Nehisi Coates,
00:46:19.760 the Batamusifs,
00:46:21.200 et cetera?
00:46:22.740 And,
00:46:23.260 you know,
00:46:24.620 basically,
00:46:25.340 this is my second
00:46:26.500 raison d'etre
00:46:27.880 for why I've put myself
00:46:29.420 out there
00:46:29.860 since October 7,
00:46:31.140 is that I'm tired
00:46:32.220 of other people
00:46:33.000 telling our story.
00:46:34.040 I'm tired of our allies.
00:46:35.920 Like,
00:46:36.300 I think,
00:46:36.860 unfortunately,
00:46:37.900 I liken it to
00:46:39.480 if you're really drunk
00:46:41.140 and you're about
00:46:42.260 to get in your car,
00:46:43.260 a good friend
00:46:44.180 and an ally
00:46:44.840 would take your keys away.
00:46:46.080 I liken what
00:46:47.920 a lot of the folks
00:46:49.880 on the left
00:46:51.000 and within the
00:46:52.160 pro-Palestine community
00:46:53.500 are doing
00:46:54.060 is they're pouring
00:46:54.900 more alcohol
00:46:55.620 as you're about
00:46:56.320 to turn on your car.
00:46:58.560 Instead of helping
00:46:59.800 the Palestinian people
00:47:00.940 understand
00:47:01.540 the folly
00:47:03.180 of supporting Hamas
00:47:04.260 and the armed resistance,
00:47:05.700 explain to them
00:47:06.600 how in the broader context
00:47:08.440 this is not serving us,
00:47:10.420 this is deadly,
00:47:11.320 this is harmful,
00:47:12.760 show us,
00:47:13.560 help us understand,
00:47:14.740 do an assessment.
00:47:15.420 We've been victims
00:47:17.660 in the sense
00:47:18.420 that we've not
00:47:19.500 had a chance
00:47:20.620 to look back
00:47:21.400 at our history
00:47:22.000 and learn from our mistakes.
00:47:24.120 When people are living
00:47:25.280 in Gaza
00:47:25.820 or in the West Bank
00:47:26.720 under the realities
00:47:27.820 of either the war
00:47:29.060 or life under Hamas
00:47:30.060 or under the realities
00:47:31.740 of the military occupation
00:47:33.040 and the settlements
00:47:33.720 and the settler violence
00:47:34.840 in the West Bank,
00:47:35.880 they can't,
00:47:37.100 maybe,
00:47:37.620 they're too viscerally
00:47:38.740 connected to this issue
00:47:40.000 and they can't
00:47:41.700 think clearly
00:47:42.360 about Hamas
00:47:43.100 or next steps
00:47:43.740 or this or that.
00:47:44.380 that's where
00:47:45.660 the role
00:47:46.280 of the elites
00:47:48.380 or the diaspora community
00:47:49.760 or the political class
00:47:51.040 or the allies
00:47:53.140 like those
00:47:54.600 on the left
00:47:55.240 comes in
00:47:55.980 to help us
00:47:56.900 understand,
00:47:57.800 empower our people
00:47:58.920 with information
00:48:00.080 to save
00:48:00.680 and protect lives
00:48:01.500 with ideas
00:48:03.500 and recommendations
00:48:04.560 and partnerships
00:48:05.400 and joint action
00:48:06.500 to get things done
00:48:07.960 to achieve
00:48:08.480 Palestinian statehood.
00:48:09.480 and instead
00:48:10.780 what we have
00:48:11.880 is basically saying
00:48:13.200 yes,
00:48:13.660 the Palestinians
00:48:14.180 are perpetual victims,
00:48:15.780 they have no agency,
00:48:17.520 the October 7th
00:48:18.580 weather and inevitability,
00:48:19.860 it's a form
00:48:20.380 of resistance,
00:48:21.380 the complete opposite
00:48:23.100 which is undermining
00:48:24.640 the Palestinian people,
00:48:25.800 normalizing a terror
00:48:26.960 organization like Hamas
00:48:28.400 that is so inherently
00:48:30.420 anti-Palestinian
00:48:31.600 by virtue of,
00:48:32.760 like what has Hamas done?
00:48:34.660 They've Islamized
00:48:35.580 the society,
00:48:36.540 they sabotaged
00:48:37.340 the fragile
00:48:38.360 yet viable
00:48:39.440 Oslo peace process
00:48:40.720 that could have led
00:48:42.220 to a Palestinian state
00:48:43.760 but Rabin and Barak
00:48:45.960 could have absolutely
00:48:47.440 allowed for the establishment
00:48:49.240 of a Palestinian state
00:48:50.540 through a meaningful compromise.
00:48:52.120 They militarized
00:48:53.240 the Second Intifada
00:48:54.400 with all of their
00:48:55.140 crazy suicide bombings
00:48:56.360 that killed hundreds
00:48:57.180 of Israeli civilians.
00:48:59.020 They squandered
00:48:59.780 an opportunity
00:49:00.460 to turn the 2005 withdrawal.
00:49:02.680 We can talk about
00:49:04.340 the intentions
00:49:04.860 of Ariel Sharon,
00:49:06.100 how imperfect it was,
00:49:07.560 the real intentions behind it.
00:49:09.240 Nevertheless,
00:49:09.920 it was an opportunity
00:49:10.980 to demonstrate
00:49:12.160 what effective
00:49:12.880 Palestinian self-governance
00:49:14.260 looks like.
00:49:15.120 It was an opportunity
00:49:15.900 to show what
00:49:16.780 an occupation-free
00:49:18.120 West Bank
00:49:18.700 would look like
00:49:19.360 and that we
00:49:20.680 as a Palestinian people
00:49:21.920 and nation
00:49:22.420 are just as capable
00:49:23.780 of self-governance,
00:49:25.320 of building institutions,
00:49:26.640 of nation building.
00:49:27.760 They abused
00:49:28.720 the 2006 electoral process
00:49:30.920 that could have been
00:49:33.840 the beginning
00:49:34.680 of Palestinian political life
00:49:36.920 through elections,
00:49:37.860 through democratic governance,
00:49:38.960 and basically entered
00:49:40.720 a political process
00:49:41.780 that was based upon
00:49:43.580 nonviolence.
00:49:44.360 It was that political process
00:49:45.780 was based upon
00:49:46.980 renunciation of violence
00:49:48.880 and accepting
00:49:50.020 that Israel's existence
00:49:52.200 and right to exist.
00:49:53.560 And they sabotaged that.
00:49:54.920 And in so doing,
00:49:56.620 they've killed
00:49:57.380 Palestinian political life.
00:49:58.800 They took over
00:49:59.880 the Gaza Strip
00:50:01.240 violently in 2007
00:50:03.240 and began
00:50:04.660 a vicious cycle
00:50:06.480 of wars,
00:50:07.320 reconstruction,
00:50:08.160 squandering resources,
00:50:09.140 and wasted
00:50:10.300 basically two decades
00:50:11.540 of the Palestinian people's
00:50:13.000 time in the Gaza Strip.
00:50:15.480 They most nefariously
00:50:17.400 served the aims
00:50:18.460 of Prime Minister Netanyahu
00:50:20.040 and the Messianic
00:50:21.640 right wing in Israel
00:50:22.540 who used Hamas
00:50:24.580 and allowed Hamas's
00:50:26.100 political rise
00:50:26.940 to fester
00:50:27.560 because they could
00:50:29.140 weaken the Palestinian authority.
00:50:30.960 They could expand settlements
00:50:31.960 in the West Bank.
00:50:33.320 So you look at
00:50:34.000 the totality of that.
00:50:36.340 How could you
00:50:37.240 as a leftist
00:50:38.020 who's pro-LGBT,
00:50:39.700 who's pro-women's rights,
00:50:40.960 who's pro-immigration,
00:50:42.240 who's pro-all of these
00:50:43.560 supposed progressive policies
00:50:45.220 not see Hamas
00:50:47.140 as the enemy
00:50:48.080 of the Palestinian people,
00:50:49.420 not see Hamas
00:50:50.360 as a nefarious,
00:50:52.000 narrow-minded,
00:50:52.940 Islamist organization
00:50:54.160 that in 2020
00:50:55.100 started saying
00:50:56.640 women can't leave Gaza
00:50:57.940 without their male guardians
00:50:59.280 to sign off.
00:51:00.360 Before that,
00:51:01.280 they started saying,
00:51:02.560 oh, well,
00:51:02.920 women can't have shisha
00:51:04.380 or hookah
00:51:05.020 on the beach
00:51:06.240 because that's not,
00:51:08.620 you know,
00:51:08.920 who would use,
00:51:11.220 they had their version
00:51:12.060 of morality police
00:51:13.100 that would go to coffee shops
00:51:14.460 in Gaza
00:51:15.020 and if women,
00:51:16.480 like young couples
00:51:18.480 or people were together,
00:51:19.940 they would go and ask them,
00:51:21.140 are you married?
00:51:21.860 Are you engaged?
00:51:22.980 Are you this and that?
00:51:24.940 Hamas is such a deadly menace
00:51:27.140 to the Palestinian people
00:51:28.280 that it turned me off.
00:51:30.820 It upset me to no end
00:51:32.380 that after October 7,
00:51:34.620 there was celebration
00:51:35.360 of the taking of women
00:51:36.620 and children as hostages.
00:51:38.480 There was,
00:51:39.100 we saw the upside down triangles
00:51:41.100 and the paragliders
00:51:42.300 and all that symbolism.
00:51:43.620 Look, I agree with all of you on this.
00:51:45.020 We're also missing
00:51:45.900 a major part
00:51:47.060 of this entire situation
00:51:49.560 in that,
00:51:50.880 and let's be brutally honest
00:51:52.180 about this.
00:51:52.960 My family in Lebanon,
00:51:54.340 your family in Palestine,
00:51:56.320 they are pawns
00:51:57.520 for what Iran wants.
00:52:00.500 This is all Iran.
00:52:01.740 These are proxy wars
00:52:03.460 that are being funded by Iran
00:52:05.320 and not enough people
00:52:06.840 are saying this.
00:52:07.880 So I guess my question
00:52:08.740 to you, Ahmed,
00:52:09.560 is what do we do about this?
00:52:11.440 Because until we sort
00:52:12.420 this problem out of Iran,
00:52:14.060 until this will continue
00:52:15.600 to happen
00:52:16.140 because they're the ones
00:52:17.420 funding it,
00:52:18.240 they're the ones
00:52:18.920 manipulating it,
00:52:19.860 and they're the ones
00:52:20.940 who are putting
00:52:21.980 all our families in danger.
00:52:24.000 Well, I certainly agree.
00:52:25.020 Like, and we delegitimize,
00:52:26.960 we have to win the narrative.
00:52:29.540 We have to change the narrative.
00:52:30.900 We have to engage.
00:52:31.880 There's an element of this,
00:52:33.100 you know,
00:52:33.300 the three modalities
00:52:34.300 that I usually oscillate
00:52:35.700 in between
00:52:36.300 is engage,
00:52:38.860 convince,
00:52:39.600 or confront.
00:52:40.620 And I do a lot of confronting
00:52:42.160 because unfortunately,
00:52:43.780 this resistance narrative,
00:52:45.240 and this is what terrifies me,
00:52:46.720 genuinely.
00:52:47.140 Before October 7,
00:52:49.720 it was the norm
00:52:50.600 for people to be like,
00:52:51.540 well,
00:52:52.260 I don't like Hamas,
00:52:53.980 but the occupation.
00:52:55.800 Or, well,
00:52:56.480 I'm really not a fan of Hamas,
00:52:58.660 but Israel's imposing
00:53:00.180 a blockade,
00:53:00.960 and et cetera, et cetera.
00:53:01.980 Never mind the fact
00:53:02.760 that the blockade
00:53:03.460 is the direct result
00:53:04.900 of Hamas's stated policies
00:53:06.740 and intentions.
00:53:09.800 After October 7,
00:53:11.260 something fundamentally shifted
00:53:13.180 and changed
00:53:14.000 like never before.
00:53:15.400 this overt,
00:53:17.260 like,
00:53:17.660 wow,
00:53:18.080 Hamas is amazing.
00:53:19.180 Wow,
00:53:19.680 like the armed resistance.
00:53:20.860 And I don't,
00:53:21.440 like,
00:53:21.660 I attribute that
00:53:22.360 to multiple components.
00:53:23.960 I think there is
00:53:25.140 foreign manipulation
00:53:26.600 into Western societies,
00:53:28.920 whether it be
00:53:29.700 by Russian
00:53:30.320 mis- and disinformation
00:53:31.960 or by agents
00:53:33.960 of the Islamic Republic
00:53:35.080 of Iran.
00:53:36.300 I don't want to
00:53:37.240 overstate that
00:53:38.040 because I just don't have
00:53:39.160 the intel
00:53:39.660 or the information,
00:53:40.480 and I'm not suggesting
00:53:42.180 that every single person
00:53:43.660 who's engaged
00:53:44.520 in pro-Palestine
00:53:45.860 or pro-resistant
00:53:46.760 is,
00:53:47.760 there's just a lot
00:53:48.400 of ill-informed
00:53:49.760 and, quite frankly,
00:53:50.740 unintelligent people
00:53:51.600 who are just engaged
00:53:52.820 in this discourse.
00:53:54.000 But I think
00:53:55.080 something fundamentally
00:53:56.340 changed
00:53:57.020 to where people
00:53:57.940 were genuinely,
00:53:59.440 maybe it's that
00:54:00.260 they saw that Hamas
00:54:01.560 won a tactical victory
00:54:03.760 on October 7
00:54:04.720 with a success,
00:54:06.220 and somehow
00:54:07.020 to some people
00:54:07.780 that beyond
00:54:09.100 just like all
00:54:09.820 the oppressors,
00:54:11.300 the oppressed
00:54:11.800 are fighting
00:54:12.320 their oppressors
00:54:13.300 and they're winning
00:54:14.020 and Che Guevara
00:54:15.140 and the romanticizing
00:54:18.340 of revolution,
00:54:20.300 maybe they saw
00:54:21.300 that Hamas'
00:54:22.480 armed resistance
00:54:23.420 temporarily won
00:54:24.620 and therefore
00:54:25.360 there's a potential
00:54:26.740 for undermining Israel
00:54:28.400 militarily
00:54:30.200 in the same way
00:54:31.260 that others
00:54:32.240 have propagated
00:54:33.220 the narrative
00:54:33.740 of,
00:54:34.400 well,
00:54:34.460 we hate the Taliban,
00:54:35.500 but they've emerged
00:54:37.320 victorious
00:54:37.860 after 20 years
00:54:38.760 of U.S. occupation,
00:54:39.900 the U.S. empire
00:54:40.940 or in Iraq.
00:54:43.040 So it could,
00:54:44.200 like,
00:54:44.440 I've tried to explain
00:54:46.100 to myself
00:54:47.240 just to understand
00:54:48.020 what is it
00:54:49.060 that got these
00:54:49.940 masses of people
00:54:51.060 to go along
00:54:52.160 with the Iranian propaganda,
00:54:54.140 to go along with,
00:54:55.300 and it went from Gaza
00:54:56.940 and now you have
00:54:58.380 people cheering on
00:54:59.360 the slave-owning
00:55:00.340 Houthis
00:55:00.900 in Yemen
00:55:02.180 or Hezbollah
00:55:03.260 in the north
00:55:04.380 or Iran
00:55:04.820 and that's
00:55:06.740 where I absolutely
00:55:07.540 agree
00:55:07.960 that it is
00:55:09.220 about the Islamic
00:55:09.980 Republic of Iran.
00:55:11.000 However,
00:55:11.780 I don't necessarily,
00:55:13.300 I've heard this,
00:55:14.000 like,
00:55:14.740 until Iran
00:55:15.640 is dealt with,
00:55:16.480 this won't go away.
00:55:18.700 I don't know
00:55:19.800 that that's necessarily
00:55:20.860 the case
00:55:21.380 and that I think
00:55:22.320 I don't see
00:55:23.720 Iran
00:55:25.000 fundamentally changing
00:55:26.900 any time soon.
00:55:27.640 I see signs
00:55:29.060 of them crumbling
00:55:29.760 from within
00:55:30.380 and who knows
00:55:31.560 what the Israeli
00:55:32.380 airstrikes
00:55:33.060 can potentially
00:55:34.940 trigger
00:55:35.420 in terms of
00:55:36.040 degrading
00:55:36.540 the Islamic
00:55:37.000 Republic's
00:55:37.720 capabilities.
00:55:39.640 I think we start
00:55:41.060 by educating
00:55:42.160 young college students
00:55:43.580 in the western world.
00:55:45.100 We start by exposing
00:55:46.520 the folly
00:55:47.340 of the armed resistance
00:55:48.600 and the access
00:55:49.700 of resistance narrative.
00:55:51.420 There are tactical,
00:55:53.860 operational,
00:55:55.020 and even somewhat
00:55:56.120 strategic components
00:55:57.400 of confronting this
00:55:58.920 that should begin
00:56:00.000 immediately,
00:56:01.100 that should initiate.
00:56:02.060 And I think
00:56:02.420 that's anchored
00:56:03.100 in them showcasing
00:56:06.080 the death
00:56:06.480 and destruction.
00:56:07.640 What kind of resistance
00:56:08.880 causes this?
00:56:11.120 Resistance is supposed
00:56:12.320 to protect people.
00:56:14.060 In this case,
00:56:15.100 in Gaza
00:56:15.480 and in Lebanon,
00:56:16.300 resistance is killing
00:56:17.460 people and is
00:56:18.480 destroying them.
00:56:19.440 And we're seeing
00:56:20.120 the Lebanese people,
00:56:21.500 like some neighborhoods
00:56:22.640 in Lebanon,
00:56:23.440 I've seen it in Arabic
00:56:24.460 social media,
00:56:25.420 where they're telling
00:56:26.200 Hezbollah guys,
00:56:27.000 get out of our neighborhood.
00:56:28.440 Don't come here.
00:56:29.640 Don't put your rocket
00:56:30.600 launchers near us.
00:56:31.840 So the whole
00:56:33.100 resistance concept
00:56:35.060 as formulated
00:56:36.060 by the Islamic Republic
00:56:37.420 and its proxies
00:56:38.620 is based upon
00:56:40.820 using the civilian
00:56:41.780 populations as pawns.
00:56:43.660 So we need
00:56:44.720 to delegitimize that
00:56:46.360 because that is evil.
00:56:48.480 That is deadly.
00:56:49.720 That is my mom
00:56:50.600 and siblings
00:56:51.640 losing their life
00:56:53.280 so that the mullahs
00:56:54.820 can basically
00:56:56.320 have their geopolitical
00:56:57.700 chess game
00:56:58.260 with Israel.
00:56:58.760 And we shouldn't
00:57:00.080 as Arab,
00:57:01.080 Muslim,
00:57:01.920 Palestinian people
00:57:02.760 have any part
00:57:04.360 in that.
00:57:05.040 We shouldn't
00:57:05.740 as allies
00:57:06.940 in the western world,
00:57:08.600 academia,
00:57:09.500 in media,
00:57:11.020 comedians,
00:57:12.080 all of these characters,
00:57:13.260 we shouldn't
00:57:14.260 inadvertently
00:57:15.140 enable
00:57:16.060 that narrative
00:57:17.380 and enable
00:57:18.340 that,
00:57:19.380 the nefarious use
00:57:21.040 of our people
00:57:22.100 as tools
00:57:22.840 and pawns.
00:57:24.160 But my worry is,
00:57:25.600 and if we come back
00:57:26.580 to the question,
00:57:27.240 Ahmed,
00:57:27.500 and I agree with
00:57:28.500 what you're saying,
00:57:29.680 the problem is
00:57:30.600 Iran is funding
00:57:31.660 a lot of these people.
00:57:32.940 They're training them.
00:57:34.180 They're helping
00:57:34.600 to organize them.
00:57:36.220 Hezbollah would not
00:57:37.120 exist without Iran.
00:57:38.660 Hamas would not
00:57:39.580 exist without Iran.
00:57:41.120 My concern is
00:57:42.360 that it doesn't matter
00:57:43.960 how many of these
00:57:45.280 psychopaths
00:57:47.180 you wipe out,
00:57:48.200 if you don't
00:57:49.600 deal with the flow
00:57:50.320 of money,
00:57:50.880 if you don't
00:57:51.640 deal with the
00:57:52.320 extremist training,
00:57:54.060 you're only going
00:57:54.900 to solve the problem
00:57:55.920 for a short amount
00:57:56.940 of time
00:57:57.460 before they regenerate,
00:57:59.400 before they regroup.
00:58:01.200 And as somebody
00:58:02.700 who has talked
00:58:03.620 to a lot of people
00:58:04.500 from both sides,
00:58:06.860 I really do think
00:58:08.140 that the only way
00:58:09.080 you're going to deal
00:58:09.900 with this,
00:58:10.240 if you want to solve
00:58:11.440 this problem
00:58:11.940 once and forever,
00:58:13.100 is to deal
00:58:14.300 with Iran.
00:58:15.380 Certainly.
00:58:16.100 Otherwise,
00:58:16.680 you're never,
00:58:17.240 it's always,
00:58:18.580 it's going to come
00:58:19.340 back again and again.
00:58:20.820 It's like dealing
00:58:21.520 with cancer,
00:58:22.180 but not cutting
00:58:22.860 out the tumor.
00:58:23.780 Certainly.
00:58:24.700 I fundamentally agree.
00:58:27.280 The concern
00:58:28.060 that I have
00:58:28.760 is I would very
00:58:29.920 much so hate
00:58:30.840 for this
00:58:31.720 to escalate
00:58:33.600 into a full-on,
00:58:35.260 I mean,
00:58:35.560 we already have
00:58:36.780 a low-intensity
00:58:37.800 regional war.
00:58:38.760 My biggest concern,
00:58:40.240 though,
00:58:40.820 and I talked to
00:58:41.680 friends and Arab
00:58:43.440 officials in the Gulf,
00:58:44.880 I mean,
00:58:45.680 our allies,
00:58:46.580 our troops,
00:58:48.240 our partners,
00:58:49.360 everybody's vulnerable
00:58:51.260 to the consequences
00:58:52.940 of dealing with Iran.
00:58:54.740 What does dealing
00:58:55.480 with Iran,
00:58:56.120 there's the,
00:58:57.680 is it,
00:58:58.460 do we go after
00:58:59.620 Iran militarily
00:59:00.640 and risk
00:59:01.420 a really apocalyptic
00:59:02.880 situation?
00:59:03.860 Do we starve Iran?
00:59:06.140 Do we undermine
00:59:07.080 the break
00:59:08.800 that Iran gets
00:59:09.720 from Russia
00:59:10.440 and China,
00:59:11.260 for example?
00:59:11.920 Like,
00:59:12.160 what that looks like
00:59:13.400 remains to be seen.
00:59:14.940 We also,
00:59:15.760 I will say,
00:59:16.360 unfortunately,
00:59:17.160 after Iraq
00:59:18.160 and Afghanistan
00:59:18.880 and those experiences
00:59:19.960 there,
00:59:21.300 I think in U.S.
00:59:22.120 foreign policy
00:59:22.860 circles,
00:59:23.820 there's a serious
00:59:25.540 reluctance
00:59:26.440 to take on,
00:59:27.980 to confront Iran
00:59:29.000 head on
00:59:29.600 out of concern
00:59:31.640 for the consequences.
00:59:32.740 And U.S.
00:59:33.380 foreign policy
00:59:34.060 in the Middle East
00:59:34.860 has failed
00:59:35.700 to radically,
00:59:38.620 I mean,
00:59:38.800 including Libya,
00:59:40.100 for example,
00:59:40.620 Libya,
00:59:41.000 Iraq,
00:59:41.280 and Afghanistan.
00:59:41.900 So what happens
00:59:43.140 in Iran,
00:59:43.820 a big country
00:59:44.680 that has
00:59:46.120 a deeply seated
00:59:47.700 sense of nationalism?
00:59:49.460 Do you inadvertently
00:59:51.260 empower the regime
00:59:53.120 by attacking it
00:59:54.240 head on
00:59:54.620 because Iranians
00:59:55.540 are going to
00:59:55.880 rally around it?
00:59:56.880 I don't have
00:59:58.240 enough information
00:59:59.120 as to what
00:59:59.920 does it look like
01:00:00.880 to go after Iran.
01:00:02.240 However,
01:00:03.040 I think from
01:00:04.560 a tactical point
01:00:06.120 of view
01:00:06.440 in Lebanon
01:00:07.140 and in Gaza,
01:00:08.820 I think there are
01:00:10.100 steps that can
01:00:11.120 be taken
01:00:11.540 to make sure
01:00:12.160 that Iran
01:00:12.700 can't come back
01:00:13.940 in there
01:00:14.320 financially,
01:00:15.480 politically,
01:00:15.900 and militarily.
01:00:16.700 It may not
01:00:17.500 permanently solve this.
01:00:18.980 It may take a while
01:00:20.260 to really cut off
01:00:22.100 Iran's access to it.
01:00:23.540 And I think
01:00:23.880 there are enough
01:00:24.540 people in Lebanon.
01:00:25.440 I mean,
01:00:25.780 Lebanon is such
01:00:26.540 a diverse nation
01:00:27.640 that there are,
01:00:29.000 and that's what
01:00:29.560 it actually makes
01:00:30.460 it easier
01:00:31.040 in a way
01:00:31.520 to collect intel
01:00:32.440 on Hezbollah
01:00:33.080 and to go after them
01:00:33.980 because there are
01:00:34.580 so many adversaries
01:00:35.760 and Lebanon is
01:00:37.000 a lot more open
01:00:37.820 than Gaza.
01:00:38.360 Gaza is smaller.
01:00:39.540 There's just a,
01:00:40.520 it's a very
01:00:41.240 homogenous population
01:00:43.040 religiously
01:00:44.280 and culturally.
01:00:45.240 But I think
01:00:47.000 the people of Gaza
01:00:48.140 now,
01:00:48.600 going back to
01:00:49.300 what we said
01:00:50.020 about Hamas
01:00:50.820 and about that
01:00:51.420 conversation,
01:00:53.040 I genuinely think
01:00:54.100 that there's
01:00:56.580 an opportunity,
01:00:57.520 a unique opportunity,
01:00:58.840 when and if
01:00:59.580 this war stops,
01:01:01.180 to fundamentally
01:01:02.820 shift things around
01:01:04.220 where the people
01:01:04.780 of Gaza
01:01:05.180 don't want to be
01:01:05.960 pawns for Hamas
01:01:06.860 or Iran.
01:01:07.420 They don't believe
01:01:08.640 in the armed
01:01:09.160 resistance anymore
01:01:10.100 because they see
01:01:11.020 what it does.
01:01:12.000 They also know
01:01:12.880 that Gaza's borders
01:01:13.820 are static.
01:01:14.660 They're,
01:01:15.080 like,
01:01:15.380 no amount of
01:01:16.120 armed resistance
01:01:17.000 is going to
01:01:17.800 change Gaza's borders.
01:01:19.360 No amount of
01:01:19.900 armed resistance
01:01:20.780 in Gaza
01:01:21.560 is going to
01:01:23.260 liberate the West Bank
01:01:24.720 or reverse
01:01:25.620 settlement activities
01:01:26.580 or open up
01:01:27.580 East Jerusalem
01:01:28.420 to the Palestinian people.
01:01:30.320 So,
01:01:30.700 in a sense,
01:01:32.600 what I predict
01:01:33.420 will happen
01:01:33.940 after the war
01:01:34.800 is that there
01:01:35.840 will be
01:01:36.520 a separation,
01:01:39.300 if you will,
01:01:39.800 of Gaza
01:01:40.400 from the broader
01:01:41.520 Israel and Palestine
01:01:43.680 conflict
01:01:44.340 and that there
01:01:45.320 will be an interest
01:01:46.640 in turning Gaza
01:01:47.560 into a successful
01:01:48.860 self-sustaining entity.
01:01:50.500 That's what I'm also
01:01:51.340 interested in,
01:01:52.200 honestly.
01:01:52.680 I don't,
01:01:53.940 I can't solve
01:01:55.080 the West Bank
01:01:56.180 and East Jerusalem.
01:01:56.860 I've never set foot
01:01:57.580 in the West Bank.
01:01:58.300 I can tell you
01:01:58.920 all about Gaza,
01:02:00.220 but I don't,
01:02:00.780 the West Bank
01:02:01.920 is fundamentally
01:02:02.740 more complicated.
01:02:04.260 I strongly believe
01:02:05.140 that solving Gaza
01:02:06.020 is actually
01:02:06.540 relatively easy
01:02:07.660 and especially
01:02:08.920 because of the
01:02:10.080 way in which
01:02:10.900 people are
01:02:11.480 rejecting Hamas,
01:02:12.500 ironically,
01:02:13.360 as morons in the West
01:02:14.860 are supporting Hamas.
01:02:16.720 I think
01:02:17.240 the reconstruction,
01:02:20.040 what is needed
01:02:21.000 in Gaza
01:02:21.360 isn't just reconstruction.
01:02:23.020 The reconstruction
01:02:23.860 has to be a part
01:02:25.620 of a broader
01:02:26.200 renaissance
01:02:26.980 and a transformation
01:02:28.300 of Gaza.
01:02:29.640 And that transformation
01:02:30.740 begins from within.
01:02:32.440 That transformation
01:02:33.200 is,
01:02:33.780 we are no longer
01:02:35.100 pawns.
01:02:35.960 We are not a threat
01:02:37.220 to Egypt or Israel
01:02:38.440 militarily.
01:02:39.600 We will only have
01:02:41.200 the type of arms
01:02:42.900 that we need
01:02:43.680 to run civil affairs
01:02:45.460 and local police,
01:02:46.560 but this will be
01:02:47.780 a demilitarized
01:02:49.100 territory.
01:02:51.560 Gaza is not just
01:02:52.460 going to be
01:02:52.880 reconstructed.
01:02:54.120 It's going to become
01:02:54.760 the crown jewel
01:02:55.800 of a Palestinian
01:02:56.880 people and nation.
01:02:58.100 It's going to be
01:02:58.400 the pride and joy
01:02:59.480 of Palestinians
01:03:00.220 in Gaza,
01:03:01.400 in the diaspora.
01:03:02.640 That's why I'm
01:03:03.600 through the Atlantic
01:03:04.320 Council and others
01:03:05.320 coming up with
01:03:06.180 different proposals.
01:03:07.100 For example,
01:03:07.640 one of the things
01:03:08.180 that I want to do
01:03:08.860 is I want to take
01:03:09.720 all the rubble
01:03:10.480 from Gaza,
01:03:11.080 and I have not
01:03:11.660 shared this publicly,
01:03:13.640 so I'm going to
01:03:14.300 share it here.
01:03:15.260 I want to put together
01:03:16.740 a proposal
01:03:17.280 to take all the rubble
01:03:18.640 from Gaza
01:03:19.300 and build an
01:03:20.280 artificial peninsula
01:03:21.500 in the middle
01:03:22.660 off of Gaza's coast
01:03:23.860 in the central
01:03:24.520 Gaza Strip
01:03:25.140 and have that
01:03:26.580 peninsula
01:03:27.120 house an airfield
01:03:28.600 and a seaport
01:03:29.620 humanitarian zones
01:03:31.320 and have it
01:03:32.180 basically be
01:03:32.900 a peninsula
01:03:34.920 of stability
01:03:35.960 amidst a sea
01:03:37.740 of instability
01:03:38.680 and horror
01:03:39.300 and war.
01:03:39.900 Because I think
01:03:40.640 unfortunately the war
01:03:41.720 is not going to
01:03:42.200 stop anytime soon,
01:03:43.760 we need to start
01:03:45.220 localizing solutions.
01:03:47.160 I want to open
01:03:47.860 Gaza up to the rest
01:03:48.840 of the world.
01:03:49.500 This is not going to
01:03:50.040 be the Dubai
01:03:50.600 International Airport.
01:03:52.380 It's going to be
01:03:52.820 a small airfield
01:03:54.020 that allows for
01:03:55.140 a non-Egyptian
01:03:55.900 and a non-Israeli
01:03:56.680 with full coordination
01:03:58.280 with the IDF
01:03:59.480 and the Israeli
01:04:00.100 military
01:04:00.620 to prevent
01:04:01.500 the facility
01:04:02.120 from smuggling
01:04:03.560 but also
01:04:04.620 to actually
01:04:05.680 prevent Hamas
01:04:07.500 from coming
01:04:08.020 into the facility.
01:04:09.360 Those who come
01:04:10.000 into the peninsula
01:04:12.080 will be vetted,
01:04:13.280 will bring in
01:04:13.840 the Arabs,
01:04:14.500 will bring in
01:04:14.920 private security,
01:04:15.840 will bring in
01:04:16.260 the European Union.
01:04:17.760 I want this
01:04:18.980 to be the nucleus
01:04:20.020 for Gaza's
01:04:20.960 future prosperity
01:04:22.060 and progress.
01:04:23.040 And again,
01:04:23.640 an airport
01:04:24.200 and a seaport
01:04:24.940 strategic infrastructure
01:04:26.240 that stabilizes Gaza
01:04:28.020 and most importantly
01:04:28.960 opens it up
01:04:29.860 so that it's not
01:04:30.580 a North Korea-like
01:04:31.720 entity.
01:04:33.020 I think solving Gaza
01:04:34.460 is pretty straightforward
01:04:35.500 once the war ends.
01:04:36.940 Well,
01:04:37.900 I think,
01:04:38.840 first of all,
01:04:39.400 it sounds incredible
01:04:40.100 and I hope that is
01:04:40.860 what happens
01:04:41.340 because it sounds
01:04:42.260 like the way out.
01:04:44.120 The problem is,
01:04:45.440 and you've alluded
01:04:46.060 to several times
01:04:46.840 and I think you're
01:04:47.320 absolutely right,
01:04:47.980 the issue is
01:04:48.740 the narrative of
01:04:49.780 the people you describe
01:04:51.780 as morons
01:04:52.420 chant repeatedly,
01:04:53.560 which is oppressed
01:04:55.420 people have a right
01:04:56.300 to resist,
01:04:57.420 right?
01:04:58.940 Armed resistance,
01:04:59.980 armed resistance,
01:05:00.660 armed resistance.
01:05:01.220 And what they really mean
01:05:02.320 when they say
01:05:02.800 armed resistance
01:05:03.360 is Israel shouldn't exist
01:05:05.300 because that's what
01:05:05.960 they mean.
01:05:06.300 Certainly.
01:05:06.820 Right?
01:05:07.180 Am I wrong about that?
01:05:07.960 No, I agree.
01:05:09.400 Unfortunately,
01:05:10.440 I mean...
01:05:11.320 So if you have a neighbor
01:05:12.960 who thinks your house
01:05:14.280 shouldn't exist,
01:05:15.400 no matter what
01:05:16.240 your intentions are,
01:05:17.280 no matter how you want
01:05:18.100 to build them
01:05:18.520 a special garden
01:05:19.260 where they can grow
01:05:19.920 their own fruit
01:05:20.560 and all the rest of it,
01:05:21.780 that is going to be
01:05:24.480 the perennial obstacle
01:05:25.820 in the way.
01:05:26.800 So I guess the question
01:05:27.800 I have for you is
01:05:29.200 how do we get to a point
01:05:32.220 where the people of Gaza
01:05:35.180 in particular,
01:05:35.960 but also perhaps
01:05:36.640 more broadly,
01:05:37.640 you know,
01:05:37.840 there are countries
01:05:38.520 in the Middle East
01:05:39.260 that support this,
01:05:40.140 Iran obviously being
01:05:41.100 one of them,
01:05:41.540 but in other places too.
01:05:42.760 How do you get to a point
01:05:44.120 where, you know,
01:05:45.980 everybody kind of accepts
01:05:47.360 that, you know,
01:05:48.360 I don't even know,
01:05:49.300 just I'm not maybe
01:05:50.300 that educated,
01:05:50.920 I don't even know
01:05:51.760 if the creation
01:05:52.400 of the state of Israel
01:05:53.320 was perfect in every way.
01:05:54.820 I also don't think
01:05:55.480 the creation
01:05:55.960 of the United States
01:05:56.920 was perfect in every way
01:05:58.060 as I think people
01:05:58.800 would concede, right?
01:06:00.160 So at some point
01:06:01.240 in history,
01:06:02.920 people have to kind of go,
01:06:04.540 we care more
01:06:05.240 about our children
01:06:06.240 precisely than about history.
01:06:08.620 Right?
01:06:08.920 How do you get
01:06:09.820 that region to that point?
01:06:12.200 And I'm going to share
01:06:13.700 something with you
01:06:14.400 that may surprise you
01:06:16.040 in some ways,
01:06:16.920 because unfortunately
01:06:17.500 we do have a few soundbites
01:06:20.160 and clips
01:06:20.900 and these content creators
01:06:22.320 that go to the territories
01:06:23.780 or go to the West Bank
01:06:25.220 and show extreme Palestinians
01:06:28.400 saying extreme things
01:06:29.680 about Israel,
01:06:30.200 doesn't exist, etc.
01:06:31.580 Believe it or not,
01:06:32.640 Palestinians in Gaza
01:06:33.900 and in the West Bank
01:06:34.720 are far more pragmatic
01:06:36.520 than Palestinians
01:06:37.620 in the diaspora
01:06:38.480 or the pro-Palestine community
01:06:39.920 in the diaspora.
01:06:41.280 When you were in Gaza
01:06:42.360 before October 7,
01:06:44.040 half of the population,
01:06:46.420 their biggest aspiration
01:06:47.440 was to get a work permit
01:06:48.620 to go work in Israel
01:06:49.580 or to get a medical permit
01:06:51.220 to go receive treatment
01:06:52.700 in Israel.
01:06:53.460 My friend who worked
01:06:54.600 in the international
01:06:55.300 humanitarian world,
01:06:57.340 in 2019,
01:06:58.900 he quit working
01:07:00.380 and he was a major director
01:07:02.140 in the humanitarian community.
01:07:03.740 He quit that
01:07:04.540 and went and became
01:07:05.440 a day laborer in Israel.
01:07:07.380 And he built a house,
01:07:09.640 he paid off his debts,
01:07:11.040 he got married,
01:07:12.080 he helped his brother
01:07:12.860 get married,
01:07:13.460 and established
01:07:14.800 a successful
01:07:15.460 mini tiny little business.
01:07:19.380 Palestinians understand
01:07:20.420 that Israel is here
01:07:21.400 to stay.
01:07:23.000 Palestinians after
01:07:23.880 October 7
01:07:24.720 really understand
01:07:25.880 that Israel is here
01:07:26.660 to stay.
01:07:27.620 Palestinians in the West Bank
01:07:28.880 will tell you
01:07:29.700 that our official
01:07:32.060 representative,
01:07:33.920 despite the
01:07:34.700 delegitimization
01:07:35.840 of Abbas,
01:07:36.760 who's not popular
01:07:37.620 and he's not liked,
01:07:38.920 but the Palestinian
01:07:40.200 authority runs
01:07:41.280 Area A
01:07:42.420 and parts
01:07:42.960 of Area B,
01:07:44.040 they've accepted
01:07:45.780 Israel's existence
01:07:46.740 and right to exist.
01:07:48.200 They've prevented
01:07:49.600 hundreds of terror
01:07:51.080 attacks against Israel,
01:07:52.720 even in the settlements,
01:07:54.180 by coordinating
01:07:54.980 with the IDF.
01:07:56.620 The Palestinians
01:07:57.340 will tell you
01:07:58.020 that unfortunately
01:07:58.760 they have accepted,
01:08:00.580 I mean,
01:08:00.920 this is part
01:08:01.420 of the narrative,
01:08:02.280 they've accepted
01:08:03.000 Israel's existence
01:08:04.080 and right to exist
01:08:05.140 and agreed
01:08:05.700 to the two-state solution
01:08:06.860 and instead
01:08:07.760 they got
01:08:08.240 sprawling settlements.
01:08:09.640 Now,
01:08:09.920 I have regularly
01:08:12.000 said that Hamas
01:08:13.060 and the right wing
01:08:13.920 within Israel,
01:08:14.800 the far right,
01:08:16.020 have had a symbiotic,
01:08:18.940 albeit an indirect,
01:08:19.980 relationship
01:08:20.480 and that they
01:08:21.060 needed each other.
01:08:23.040 Benkvir and Smotrich
01:08:24.260 wouldn't be
01:08:24.860 where they're at now
01:08:25.780 without Hamas'
01:08:26.700 suicide bombings
01:08:27.600 and the second intifada
01:08:28.900 that shrank
01:08:29.760 the peace camp
01:08:30.540 in Israel.
01:08:31.620 So,
01:08:32.500 though the Palestinians
01:08:33.580 have grievances
01:08:34.640 with the state
01:08:36.140 of Israel's
01:08:36.960 historic establishment,
01:08:38.620 with the policies
01:08:39.760 of settlements
01:08:40.440 in the West Bank
01:08:41.320 or the current
01:08:42.260 conduct of the war
01:08:43.240 in Gaza,
01:08:44.660 I think,
01:08:45.540 honestly,
01:08:46.060 if you really
01:08:46.860 take away the noise
01:08:47.760 and especially
01:08:48.620 if you meet people
01:08:49.500 in private,
01:08:50.320 not in public
01:08:51.360 because it's not
01:08:52.180 a democratic society,
01:08:53.640 there's safety concerns,
01:08:55.380 there's social pressure,
01:08:57.540 but if you meet people
01:08:58.900 at an individual level
01:09:00.620 the vast majority,
01:09:02.500 and I stand by this claim,
01:09:03.920 the vast majority
01:09:04.980 of Palestinians
01:09:05.760 acknowledge that
01:09:07.200 Israel is here
01:09:07.840 to stay.
01:09:09.060 And I think
01:09:10.860 what is needed
01:09:11.580 now more than ever
01:09:12.760 is to enable
01:09:14.540 this narrative shift
01:09:15.680 that you discussed
01:09:16.500 to show pragmatists
01:09:18.940 and moderates,
01:09:19.980 I hate the term
01:09:20.600 moderates,
01:09:21.080 but it's in the absence
01:09:22.640 of anything,
01:09:23.180 let's call it
01:09:23.840 moderates and pragmatists
01:09:25.160 like myself
01:09:25.800 or like elements
01:09:26.680 of the Palestinian Authority
01:09:27.720 that moderation
01:09:29.180 and acknowledging
01:09:30.420 Israel's right
01:09:31.160 to exist
01:09:31.680 pays off,
01:09:33.320 that it actually
01:09:34.240 to empower
01:09:35.900 the moderates
01:09:36.600 with wins.
01:09:38.800 I'm going to be honest
01:09:39.660 with you,
01:09:39.840 I'm an American,
01:09:40.480 I love being
01:09:40.980 in the United States,
01:09:42.400 I view myself
01:09:43.840 as an American
01:09:44.460 even though
01:09:45.080 obviously being
01:09:45.700 a Palestinian
01:09:46.360 from Gaza
01:09:47.060 is a foundational
01:09:48.280 component
01:09:48.920 of my identity,
01:09:50.320 but I feel
01:09:52.260 that the entirety
01:09:53.380 of my lived experience
01:09:54.740 and life
01:09:55.260 have been leading
01:09:56.060 me to a place
01:09:57.100 where I think
01:09:59.500 it's inevitable
01:10:00.080 that I play a role
01:10:01.160 in Gaza's future,
01:10:02.940 in Palestine's future,
01:10:04.340 what that exactly
01:10:05.500 looks like
01:10:06.080 remains to be seen,
01:10:07.220 but that's where
01:10:08.720 by this proposal,
01:10:10.540 it's not just
01:10:11.100 a humanitarian
01:10:11.700 endeavor to help
01:10:13.180 the people
01:10:14.020 with the airport
01:10:14.660 and seaport,
01:10:15.820 but I want
01:10:17.280 to do things
01:10:18.120 on the ground
01:10:18.800 for the people
01:10:19.480 in Gaza
01:10:19.940 to say,
01:10:20.400 look,
01:10:20.600 I did this
01:10:21.180 because I acknowledge
01:10:22.180 Israel's,
01:10:23.000 I was successful
01:10:24.020 because I acknowledge
01:10:25.000 Israel's existence
01:10:25.980 and right to safety
01:10:26.940 and security,
01:10:28.060 I coordinated
01:10:28.780 with the Israelis,
01:10:29.880 we're done with wars,
01:10:31.360 we're done with being pawns,
01:10:33.080 we are going to engage
01:10:33.960 in nation building
01:10:35.200 to build our nation
01:10:36.920 to be the best,
01:10:38.320 to make the best
01:10:39.260 state of Palestine.
01:10:40.540 What kind,
01:10:41.320 like one of the things
01:10:42.380 that I think
01:10:42.880 is lacking
01:10:44.000 is an internal
01:10:44.960 Palestinian dialogue,
01:10:46.460 not between Hamas
01:10:47.460 and Feteh,
01:10:48.880 but us as a people,
01:10:50.260 there's been no space
01:10:51.640 for us to talk about
01:10:52.420 what does it mean
01:10:53.520 to be Palestinian?
01:10:54.840 Who are we
01:10:55.460 as a people?
01:10:56.520 What kind of a nation
01:10:57.320 do we want?
01:10:58.040 Do we want,
01:10:58.680 okay, fine,
01:10:59.220 like of course we want
01:11:00.020 the military occupation
01:11:00.920 to end,
01:11:01.680 but what replaces
01:11:02.720 the occupation?
01:11:03.960 Is it Islamist theocracy?
01:11:06.300 Is it a democratic state?
01:11:08.680 Are we eventually
01:11:09.820 going to have
01:11:10.400 like truly,
01:11:11.760 you know,
01:11:12.420 a law-based society
01:11:15.540 where women
01:11:16.280 and men are equal,
01:11:17.560 where we don't have
01:11:19.040 elements of the tribal
01:11:20.980 kind of thinking,
01:11:22.920 governor,
01:11:23.140 like are we
01:11:23.920 going to be
01:11:24.200 a progressive society?
01:11:25.320 Are we going to be,
01:11:26.300 are we going to make
01:11:27.080 it possible
01:11:27.800 for women
01:11:28.420 to wear short skirts
01:11:30.240 and not be harassed?
01:11:31.200 Like all of those things,
01:11:32.880 like as an identity,
01:11:33.860 we lack that
01:11:34.720 as Palestinians
01:11:35.400 and I want,
01:11:36.860 I see that,
01:11:38.480 the moderate narrative,
01:11:40.380 the pragmatic narrative
01:11:41.460 as being an enabler
01:11:43.400 in that transformation
01:11:44.600 and that renaissance.
01:11:45.400 Well,
01:11:45.580 that sounds incredible.
01:11:47.180 The only thing
01:11:48.160 I would say is,
01:11:49.140 I hope in the doing that
01:11:50.540 you're very careful
01:11:51.240 because my fear
01:11:52.560 is understanding
01:11:53.320 the history of the region
01:11:54.260 as little as I do
01:11:55.140 is anyone who's tried
01:11:57.060 to pursue that path
01:11:58.060 gets blown up
01:11:59.060 or thrown off a building.
01:12:00.500 I was talking
01:12:02.120 to a friend last night
01:12:03.200 and...
01:12:03.700 I mean,
01:12:03.980 again,
01:12:04.240 am I wrong about this?
01:12:05.140 No,
01:12:05.540 no,
01:12:05.920 you're absolutely right.
01:12:06.760 So this is the problem
01:12:07.740 is it's not a battle
01:12:08.940 of narratives,
01:12:09.640 it's a battle
01:12:10.760 of people who've got guns
01:12:12.000 and the people
01:12:13.180 who are prepared
01:12:13.720 to be more extreme,
01:12:15.060 who are better armed,
01:12:15.980 who are prepared
01:12:16.420 to kill
01:12:16.900 their political opponents.
01:12:18.840 They're the ones
01:12:19.520 that repeatedly
01:12:20.340 end up in charge
01:12:21.400 of portions of land
01:12:22.580 around Israel
01:12:23.280 and they want
01:12:25.380 armed resistance
01:12:26.180 because it keeps
01:12:27.300 them important,
01:12:28.120 it keeps them rich,
01:12:29.000 it keeps them in charge.
01:12:30.560 Can I take a little detour
01:12:32.520 and just,
01:12:33.140 I can't not say this
01:12:34.520 because this is also
01:12:35.420 something that
01:12:36.060 both the Palestinian people
01:12:38.260 and the Israeli people
01:12:39.400 are paying the price of,
01:12:41.540 but can we acknowledge
01:12:42.940 that as much as
01:12:44.900 I agree completely,
01:12:46.140 that Hamas wouldn't be
01:12:47.360 where it's at
01:12:48.220 without Iran and Qatar.
01:12:50.720 Hamas in part
01:12:52.220 and directly
01:12:53.380 and indirectly
01:12:54.200 would also not be here
01:12:55.740 without Netanyahu
01:12:56.680 and his deliberate policy
01:12:58.500 since 2009
01:12:59.740 when he was deliberately
01:13:02.300 seeking to empower
01:13:03.680 the group
01:13:04.220 in pursuit
01:13:05.860 of the delegitimization
01:13:07.220 of the Palestinian Authority,
01:13:08.580 in pursuit of keeping
01:13:09.840 the Palestinians divided.
01:13:11.340 I'm saying very sadly
01:13:12.620 and I'm a proponent
01:13:14.160 of Palestinian agency,
01:13:15.460 I'm a proponent of
01:13:17.040 there's an imbalance
01:13:18.120 of power clearly
01:13:19.400 with Israel having
01:13:20.380 overwhelming power
01:13:21.400 on numerous levels.
01:13:22.500 That said,
01:13:23.480 I am a believer
01:13:25.280 that we have
01:13:26.240 responsibilities
01:13:27.100 and agency
01:13:28.080 and we have to have
01:13:29.560 accountability.
01:13:30.720 October 7 was a choice,
01:13:32.240 not an inevitability.
01:13:33.140 So even with all
01:13:34.940 of that said,
01:13:36.280 it is absolutely
01:13:37.340 an indisputable fact
01:13:38.880 mainline headlines
01:13:40.360 in Israel
01:13:40.980 will tell you
01:13:41.820 that Hamas
01:13:43.020 would not be
01:13:43.720 Ehud Barak,
01:13:45.060 former leader,
01:13:46.300 Olmert,
01:13:46.780 whom I met personally
01:13:47.760 and talked to several times,
01:13:49.620 will tell you
01:13:50.220 Hamas would not be
01:13:51.480 where it's at
01:13:52.280 right now,
01:13:53.300 not just in terms
01:13:54.540 of their ability
01:13:55.340 to carry out
01:13:56.920 October 7th
01:13:58.140 more disturbingly
01:14:01.780 in that they've had
01:14:03.540 this long runway
01:14:04.880 to spread
01:14:05.860 the armed resistance
01:14:06.680 narrative,
01:14:07.460 to radicalize
01:14:08.660 the education
01:14:09.680 and the narrative,
01:14:10.600 to radicalize
01:14:11.580 Palestinian society,
01:14:13.120 to chop off
01:14:14.040 the legs
01:14:14.600 and the heads
01:14:15.320 of the Palestinians
01:14:16.300 who want to
01:14:17.360 promote
01:14:18.000 a different narrative.
01:14:19.980 That was,
01:14:21.300 like,
01:14:21.700 where we're at
01:14:22.580 in terms of
01:14:23.160 the radicalization
01:14:24.080 is inseparable
01:14:25.100 from Israeli
01:14:26.200 political choices.
01:14:27.420 Well,
01:14:27.660 cycles of violence
01:14:28.460 always work like this,
01:14:29.440 right?
01:14:29.780 It's never
01:14:30.420 one side's fault only.
01:14:32.660 I guess what I'm
01:14:33.420 just saying is
01:14:34.160 in your efforts,
01:14:35.400 I wish you all
01:14:35.980 the luck in the world.
01:14:36.740 I just hope
01:14:37.160 you're very careful.
01:14:38.140 Oh,
01:14:38.400 believe me,
01:14:38.880 I don't have,
01:14:40.920 I mean,
01:14:41.220 and I'm,
01:14:42.040 to be clear,
01:14:43.360 I survived,
01:14:44.180 you know,
01:14:44.880 a bombing.
01:14:46.020 I'm largely,
01:14:46.580 part of why I'm loud
01:14:47.360 is I'm largely,
01:14:48.480 mainly deaf in my left ear
01:14:49.600 from an IDF bombing
01:14:50.720 that killed two of my friends
01:14:51.940 and almost killed me.
01:14:53.340 I've been in
01:14:55.060 direct war in Gaza
01:14:56.820 and the Ghosh Katif
01:14:58.000 settlement checkpoint
01:14:59.360 where we've been shot at.
01:15:01.260 Like,
01:15:01.420 I've experienced war
01:15:02.440 and I'm actually grateful
01:15:03.440 to be alive.
01:15:04.300 Like,
01:15:04.440 I don't believe in martyrdom.
01:15:05.960 I want to undermine
01:15:07.060 the martyrdom narrative.
01:15:08.940 So I care about living,
01:15:10.240 believe it or not.
01:15:11.440 And I don't want
01:15:12.020 to be a martyr,
01:15:12.700 but I very much so
01:15:13.880 accept and embrace
01:15:15.980 that what I'm doing
01:15:17.340 right now,
01:15:18.300 even here in the United States,
01:15:19.660 the amount of threats
01:15:20.660 that I receive
01:15:21.460 is unreal.
01:15:22.700 I mean,
01:15:22.920 I've had to get body armor
01:15:24.660 and firearms
01:15:25.560 and protect myself.
01:15:27.340 And these are not
01:15:28.420 just like online trolls.
01:15:29.780 These are highly specialized
01:15:31.080 people who go out
01:15:33.040 of their way
01:15:33.540 to be extremely descriptive
01:15:36.060 in the type of threats
01:15:37.880 and we're going to
01:15:39.020 rape your children
01:15:39.960 and behead your wife.
01:15:41.080 I don't have children
01:15:41.700 or a wife,
01:15:42.500 but like people
01:15:43.320 that just like
01:15:43.980 go in sadistic terms
01:15:45.380 and trying to terrify me.
01:15:47.540 And I was talking
01:15:48.040 to a friend of mine
01:15:48.680 last night
01:15:49.120 and I said,
01:15:49.520 I embrace that
01:15:51.020 my life expectancy
01:15:52.680 may not be the highest
01:15:53.920 as a result of this work
01:15:54.960 that I'm doing,
01:15:55.620 but I also genuinely think
01:15:57.980 the number of Arabs
01:15:59.880 and Muslims
01:16:00.340 and Palestinians
01:16:00.980 who regularly
01:16:01.940 cheer me on
01:16:03.020 often in private,
01:16:04.280 they tell me,
01:16:05.080 you're saying
01:16:05.540 what we know is true,
01:16:06.780 but we can't say so publicly.
01:16:08.500 Thank God
01:16:09.180 someone else is saying it.
01:16:10.620 The way that I've structured
01:16:11.880 my life is
01:16:12.920 I'm not like
01:16:14.140 I have a lot of Palestinian
01:16:15.140 and Arab
01:16:15.520 and Muslim friends,
01:16:16.560 but like
01:16:16.840 everybody's my community.
01:16:18.760 I'm not,
01:16:19.500 I don't live my day-to-day life
01:16:20.960 as part of that community
01:16:22.300 here in the United States
01:16:23.440 or anywhere else.
01:16:24.840 So it doesn't matter
01:16:25.980 if I get attacked.
01:16:27.000 It doesn't matter
01:16:27.640 if I get maligned
01:16:28.660 by,
01:16:29.060 if I get excommunicated
01:16:30.680 from my community.
01:16:33.380 Other people,
01:16:34.400 unfortunately,
01:16:35.020 they're at the mosque
01:16:35.820 and they're at the hookah bar
01:16:36.980 and they're at the family gatherings
01:16:38.420 and so many people
01:16:40.900 tell me
01:16:41.460 in Palestine,
01:16:42.700 in Gaza,
01:16:43.580 in the United States,
01:16:45.540 dude,
01:16:45.720 I start to like
01:16:47.100 say things about Hamas,
01:16:48.360 but my family have gone crazy.
01:16:49.920 I start to challenge
01:16:51.300 what's happening
01:16:52.100 or like October 7
01:16:53.460 or to humanize
01:16:54.320 Israeli hostages,
01:16:55.360 but my family
01:16:56.800 immediately jumped to like,
01:16:57.680 well,
01:16:57.780 what about our prisoners?
01:16:58.780 What about this?
01:16:59.280 What about that?
01:16:59.780 So like,
01:17:00.280 I genuinely believe
01:17:02.420 there are enough
01:17:03.320 Ahmads,
01:17:04.540 like I speak
01:17:05.440 for myself.
01:17:06.400 I don't speak
01:17:06.740 for anyone else.
01:17:07.780 There are enough Ahmads
01:17:08.780 out there
01:17:09.340 whom if given the space,
01:17:11.800 the protection,
01:17:13.400 the pathway,
01:17:14.320 the runway
01:17:15.620 would absolutely
01:17:17.240 come forward
01:17:18.140 in significant enough numbers
01:17:19.880 to change the narrative,
01:17:21.140 but most importantly,
01:17:22.460 the narrative shift
01:17:23.440 cannot stand on its own.
01:17:25.000 There have to be
01:17:25.660 changes on the ground
01:17:27.080 to improve
01:17:27.740 the lives of people.
01:17:29.540 And that's where,
01:17:30.300 again,
01:17:30.540 I want to do
01:17:31.320 humanitarian projects
01:17:32.560 in Gaza
01:17:33.060 to be able to
01:17:34.360 show my people
01:17:36.040 that my positions,
01:17:38.260 my shift in narrative
01:17:39.760 is backed up
01:17:41.340 by progress
01:17:42.040 on the ground,
01:17:42.700 meaning this is
01:17:44.600 the way forward.
01:17:45.500 This is how
01:17:45.940 we de-radicalize.
01:17:46.920 The other thing too
01:17:47.600 is I want to
01:17:48.080 do de-radicalization
01:17:50.160 without,
01:17:51.640 but I've been struggling
01:17:52.700 until I come up
01:17:54.040 with an alternative
01:17:54.800 word to de-radicalization.
01:17:56.340 I studied
01:17:56.980 counterterrorism
01:17:57.900 and security.
01:17:59.800 De-radicalization
01:18:00.600 in a counterterrorism
01:18:01.940 context alone
01:18:02.900 is not going to
01:18:04.060 cut it
01:18:04.420 for the Palestinian story,
01:18:05.940 particularly because
01:18:06.680 of how,
01:18:08.120 you know,
01:18:08.400 like,
01:18:09.000 this is a long conflict.
01:18:10.140 This is not just a,
01:18:11.880 you know,
01:18:12.060 we're,
01:18:12.520 we're,
01:18:12.800 you know,
01:18:13.220 so,
01:18:14.360 and also de-radicalization
01:18:15.660 inherently starts
01:18:17.020 from an imbalance
01:18:18.500 of,
01:18:18.980 like,
01:18:20.000 you're here,
01:18:20.820 you're down here,
01:18:21.620 oh,
01:18:21.820 you dirty radical ones,
01:18:23.620 let me clean you up
01:18:24.520 and let me de-radicalize you.
01:18:26.440 I want to do de-radicalization
01:18:28.080 as a form of empowerment,
01:18:30.240 that de-radicalization
01:18:31.580 pays off.
01:18:32.460 De-radicalization
01:18:33.260 is progress
01:18:33.840 for your life,
01:18:34.940 for your family.
01:18:35.780 De-radicalization
01:18:36.660 is part of that renaissance
01:18:37.980 and that transformation.
01:18:39.180 And I genuinely think
01:18:41.240 there's hunger
01:18:41.820 for that in the,
01:18:42.700 because did you know
01:18:43.920 that the Palestinian people
01:18:45.600 have the lowest
01:18:46.540 illiteracy rates
01:18:48.000 in the entirety
01:18:48.840 of the Middle East?
01:18:49.740 We don't lack
01:18:51.160 an education.
01:18:52.480 By the way,
01:18:52.940 the other thing
01:18:53.440 about the,
01:18:53.980 the,
01:18:54.140 the,
01:18:54.220 Can I just stop you,
01:18:55.080 can I just stop you there?
01:18:56.160 And again,
01:18:57.380 I'm,
01:18:57.640 I'm loving the passion
01:18:58.820 and what you're saying,
01:19:00.440 but I look at the,
01:19:02.120 the individuals
01:19:03.280 that get radicalized
01:19:04.360 in the UK.
01:19:05.260 A lot of them
01:19:05.820 are very educated.
01:19:07.180 A lot of them
01:19:07.920 are very intelligent.
01:19:08.720 A lot of them
01:19:09.320 went to university.
01:19:10.380 This isn't necessarily
01:19:11.480 about education.
01:19:12.720 We're talking about
01:19:13.620 something very different,
01:19:14.860 different,
01:19:15.440 differently,
01:19:16.020 Ahmed,
01:19:16.500 which is the power
01:19:17.460 of ideology.
01:19:18.860 Precisely.
01:19:19.380 And it's,
01:19:20.340 to me,
01:19:21.240 education,
01:19:21.980 okay,
01:19:22.240 it may be part of it,
01:19:23.020 but it's not the whole of it.
01:19:24.000 Like I said,
01:19:24.780 there's lots of people,
01:19:26.200 unfortunately,
01:19:27.200 highly educated,
01:19:28.260 highly intelligent,
01:19:29.200 who fall for this
01:19:30.420 toxic death cult.
01:19:32.180 I couldn't agree more,
01:19:33.240 brother.
01:19:33.560 I mean,
01:19:34.340 unfortunately,
01:19:34.920 a lot of Hamas's guys,
01:19:36.480 they have PhDs.
01:19:38.580 The issue,
01:19:39.740 however,
01:19:40.700 is that
01:19:41.180 there hasn't been
01:19:43.500 the moderate equivalent
01:19:45.800 of ideology.
01:19:47.460 Like,
01:19:47.620 there isn't a moderate
01:19:48.640 ideology.
01:19:50.800 Moderation
01:19:51.360 and pragmatism
01:19:52.920 are a set of
01:19:54.220 ideas
01:19:55.620 and tactical beliefs
01:19:56.900 that we have
01:19:57.740 to work with
01:19:58.540 what the cards
01:19:59.500 were dealt.
01:20:00.620 A,
01:20:00.980 B,
01:20:01.300 C,
01:20:01.640 D.
01:20:02.000 It's very,
01:20:02.740 like,
01:20:03.000 matter of fact.
01:20:03.940 This is how to get
01:20:04.640 results done.
01:20:06.100 Moderation
01:20:06.700 is not as sexy
01:20:08.780 as radical ideas.
01:20:10.480 It's not as appealing
01:20:11.660 as connecting
01:20:13.200 Palestine
01:20:13.780 to the struggle
01:20:14.700 against the Jews
01:20:15.660 and the Zionist entity
01:20:17.060 or connecting it
01:20:18.520 to the broader,
01:20:19.160 if you're a leftist
01:20:19.960 or a non-rightist,
01:20:20.800 the broader decolonization
01:20:22.720 and,
01:20:23.200 you know,
01:20:23.820 intersectionality.
01:20:25.100 That's why you have
01:20:25.700 the, you know,
01:20:26.300 queers for Palestine
01:20:27.120 and somehow
01:20:28.180 queers rights
01:20:29.060 and,
01:20:29.600 you know,
01:20:30.060 BLM
01:20:30.960 and Black Lives Matter
01:20:32.100 issues
01:20:32.940 are connected
01:20:33.560 to the struggle
01:20:34.620 of Palestinians
01:20:35.280 in Gaza.
01:20:36.520 There's an attempt
01:20:37.480 to map out
01:20:38.380 a lot of leftist
01:20:39.420 and social justice
01:20:40.840 discourse
01:20:41.440 to the Israel
01:20:42.380 and Palestine issue
01:20:43.220 and it's simply
01:20:44.880 not that.
01:20:45.620 Palestine,
01:20:46.280 Israel is not
01:20:46.860 going to disappear
01:20:47.540 per the South Africa
01:20:48.600 model.
01:20:49.080 There is this
01:20:49.620 unfortunate belief
01:20:51.140 among many
01:20:51.860 that Israel
01:20:53.240 is a temporary
01:20:54.640 project
01:20:55.460 that is passing
01:20:56.480 and this is not
01:20:57.660 just an Islamist idea.
01:20:58.900 This is part
01:20:59.460 of the whole
01:21:00.100 decolonizing left
01:21:02.040 and so that's
01:21:03.540 the part
01:21:03.980 that I struggle
01:21:05.620 with
01:21:06.020 because I'm,
01:21:07.380 what I'm inspiring,
01:21:08.480 when I go to
01:21:09.100 Palestinians in Gaza
01:21:10.120 and I talk to them,
01:21:11.300 what inspires them
01:21:12.360 is,
01:21:13.180 I like the thought
01:21:13.980 of having an airport
01:21:15.100 that I can use
01:21:16.420 to get in and out.
01:21:17.620 I love the idea
01:21:19.160 of a seaport.
01:21:19.920 I love the idea
01:21:20.520 of like my home
01:21:21.360 being rebuilt.
01:21:22.460 Like,
01:21:23.460 I want,
01:21:24.000 I don't want
01:21:24.440 any more war.
01:21:25.100 I don't want
01:21:25.520 any violence.
01:21:26.340 I don't want
01:21:26.600 to,
01:21:26.900 but I haven't
01:21:27.880 gone a step
01:21:28.540 further.
01:21:29.300 I haven't yet
01:21:30.180 gone a step
01:21:30.860 further
01:21:31.260 in providing
01:21:32.580 this counter
01:21:33.540 ideology.
01:21:34.420 But I struggle
01:21:35.500 with that
01:21:35.700 because I also
01:21:36.140 think all
01:21:36.720 ideologies,
01:21:37.540 in a sense,
01:21:38.320 are a form
01:21:38.800 of fascism
01:21:39.380 because you're
01:21:39.840 just like
01:21:40.240 with your team
01:21:41.480 all the way
01:21:42.480 and you can't
01:21:43.140 have any nuance.
01:21:44.000 So I struggle
01:21:44.820 with,
01:21:45.260 and I'd love
01:21:45.740 to hear it
01:21:46.160 like from you,
01:21:46.840 like what
01:21:47.680 could moderate
01:21:49.820 ideology look
01:21:50.860 like?
01:21:51.080 Because people
01:21:51.820 in today's
01:21:53.100 fragmented world,
01:21:54.220 in today's
01:21:54.800 polarized world,
01:21:56.060 they need
01:21:57.440 something more
01:21:58.180 than the Maslow
01:21:59.240 hierarchy of needs
01:22:00.100 and ideology
01:22:00.780 kind of sits
01:22:01.460 at the top.
01:22:02.260 And I don't
01:22:03.160 know what
01:22:03.640 replaces that
01:22:04.280 beyond what
01:22:05.620 I've been
01:22:06.220 dabbling with
01:22:06.860 and I've been
01:22:07.240 talking to other
01:22:07.760 Palestinians is,
01:22:08.720 is to actually
01:22:09.700 think about this.
01:22:11.240 Like,
01:22:12.120 I said to a friend
01:22:12.860 of mine,
01:22:13.120 I want to be
01:22:13.520 like the Theodor
01:22:14.280 Herzl of the
01:22:15.240 Palestinian people.
01:22:16.160 I want to
01:22:16.660 create the
01:22:17.200 Palestinian equivalent
01:22:18.500 of the Zionist
01:22:20.020 movement in
01:22:20.800 the sense
01:22:21.140 of what
01:22:21.960 is our
01:22:22.400 like idea,
01:22:23.540 who are we
01:22:24.140 as a people?
01:22:24.960 What does it
01:22:25.620 mean to be
01:22:26.100 Palestinian?
01:22:27.100 How do you
01:22:27.600 express
01:22:28.100 Palestinianism
01:22:30.120 and Palestinian
01:22:31.120 identity?
01:22:31.980 Is it a set
01:22:32.640 of beliefs?
01:22:33.320 Is it tied
01:22:33.840 to the land?
01:22:34.980 Is it our
01:22:35.840 connection to
01:22:36.440 the Arab
01:22:36.820 and Muslim
01:22:37.240 world?
01:22:37.820 And then once
01:22:38.780 we figure out
01:22:39.340 this identity,
01:22:41.040 like how do
01:22:41.540 we inspire,
01:22:42.520 like in the
01:22:43.280 same way that
01:22:43.900 Birthright brings
01:22:45.120 all these young
01:22:46.100 Jewish kids who
01:22:47.240 know nothing
01:22:48.120 about Israel,
01:22:48.920 are not really
01:22:49.840 in touch with
01:22:50.540 Israel or
01:22:52.720 with their
01:22:53.100 Jewish heritage
01:22:54.000 and identity.
01:22:55.100 They go to
01:22:55.720 Israel and
01:22:56.680 they get
01:22:57.020 inspired and
01:22:58.100 it's maybe
01:22:59.380 not exactly
01:23:00.660 an ideology but
01:23:01.600 there's this
01:23:02.460 inspirational
01:23:03.280 connection to
01:23:04.360 Israel.
01:23:05.860 So similarly,
01:23:07.000 I want to do
01:23:07.760 an inspirational
01:23:09.480 connection to
01:23:10.980 peace and
01:23:11.660 coexistence as a
01:23:12.960 courageous evolution
01:23:14.160 that is necessary
01:23:15.840 to preserve the
01:23:16.800 Palestinian people
01:23:17.660 and to allow
01:23:18.440 for the
01:23:18.980 prosperity and
01:23:20.220 the renaissance
01:23:20.880 of the
01:23:21.400 Palestinian people.
01:23:22.220 Because again,
01:23:22.920 we've been
01:23:23.480 victims, yes,
01:23:24.480 of Israeli
01:23:25.040 policies and
01:23:25.980 occupation,
01:23:27.140 but we've also
01:23:27.680 been victims of
01:23:28.520 horrendous leadership.
01:23:29.520 I said earlier,
01:23:30.220 we had the
01:23:31.120 pan-Arabism of
01:23:32.560 Nasser in the
01:23:33.340 50s and 60s,
01:23:34.220 we have the
01:23:34.800 PLO's secularism
01:23:36.060 and the
01:23:36.380 PFLP's
01:23:37.160 Marxism and
01:23:38.240 Hamas's
01:23:38.960 Islamism now.
01:23:40.240 Different
01:23:40.680 ideologies,
01:23:41.920 but unfortunately
01:23:43.120 the same
01:23:43.780 destructive outcome.
01:23:44.660 So to me,
01:23:45.960 it's about
01:23:46.840 working with
01:23:47.500 religious leaders.
01:23:48.600 It's about
01:23:49.340 working with
01:23:49.860 religious leaders
01:23:50.600 having a
01:23:51.700 better,
01:23:52.280 more tolerant
01:23:52.800 version of
01:23:53.420 Islam and
01:23:54.020 not this
01:23:54.520 extremist
01:23:55.500 strand which
01:23:57.060 is radicalising
01:23:57.920 because until
01:23:58.400 you deal with
01:23:59.560 the extreme
01:24:00.100 mullahs,
01:24:00.900 to me,
01:24:01.860 looking at
01:24:02.640 Lebanon,
01:24:03.060 I don't know
01:24:04.020 what I'm really
01:24:04.560 talking about here,
01:24:05.720 but you look
01:24:07.100 at what's
01:24:07.460 happening in
01:24:07.900 the UK,
01:24:08.840 a lot of
01:24:09.460 these kids
01:24:09.900 get radicalised
01:24:10.760 in mosques.
01:24:11.780 They get
01:24:12.120 radicalised by
01:24:13.000 extremist
01:24:13.560 mullahs.
01:24:13.920 You need
01:24:14.520 to deal
01:24:14.960 with that
01:24:15.700 in the
01:24:16.560 same way
01:24:17.040 that the
01:24:17.300 UAE have
01:24:17.980 come down
01:24:18.520 and really
01:24:19.160 cracked down
01:24:19.920 because until
01:24:21.220 you deal
01:24:21.760 with those
01:24:22.280 types of
01:24:22.740 individuals,
01:24:23.680 those groups,
01:24:24.360 that rhetoric,
01:24:26.800 nothing is
01:24:27.940 going to be
01:24:28.240 allowed to
01:24:28.660 flourish.
01:24:29.080 Nothing can
01:24:29.540 flourish in
01:24:30.020 extremism apart
01:24:31.080 from more
01:24:31.540 extremism,
01:24:32.440 death,
01:24:32.880 destruction,
01:24:33.560 misery.
01:24:34.160 And that's
01:24:34.460 why I think
01:24:34.820 your big
01:24:35.160 hope comes
01:24:35.660 in because
01:24:36.240 you would
01:24:38.240 hope that
01:24:38.740 after everything
01:24:39.540 that has
01:24:39.900 happened,
01:24:40.340 there's a
01:24:40.680 hunger for
01:24:41.380 stability and
01:24:42.240 peace in
01:24:43.460 Gaza.
01:24:43.920 I'm sure
01:24:45.720 there are a
01:24:46.100 lot of
01:24:46.320 very angry
01:24:46.780 people there
01:24:47.340 too.
01:24:47.920 Absolutely.
01:24:48.880 But ultimately
01:24:50.560 as we talked
01:24:51.280 about,
01:24:51.580 the way this
01:24:52.060 ends is
01:24:52.760 people have
01:24:54.780 to accept
01:24:55.400 on both
01:24:56.120 sides the
01:24:56.660 reality that's
01:24:57.780 on the
01:24:58.040 ground.
01:24:59.600 Israel has
01:25:01.420 nuclear weapons
01:25:02.040 for God's
01:25:02.460 sake.
01:25:02.700 I mean,
01:25:03.060 you can keep
01:25:03.980 attacking it,
01:25:04.840 but ultimately
01:25:05.600 this isn't
01:25:06.220 going to work.
01:25:07.420 And more and
01:25:08.020 more children
01:25:08.620 are going to
01:25:09.020 die.
01:25:09.660 However,
01:25:10.080 this is where
01:25:10.560 the religious
01:25:11.080 dimension comes
01:25:11.800 in.
01:25:11.960 Because if
01:25:12.200 you think
01:25:12.560 your children
01:25:13.260 are going
01:25:13.580 to heaven
01:25:14.000 because they
01:25:14.720 blew themselves
01:25:15.620 up on a
01:25:16.100 bus somewhere,
01:25:17.120 then you've
01:25:18.320 got a
01:25:18.520 problem.
01:25:19.780 But may
01:25:20.040 I also
01:25:20.520 bring in
01:25:21.380 another
01:25:21.780 critical
01:25:22.400 component?
01:25:23.020 I talk
01:25:23.440 to Israelis
01:25:24.220 across the
01:25:24.980 political
01:25:25.340 spectrum.
01:25:26.400 In the
01:25:27.000 same way,
01:25:27.740 and I
01:25:27.940 understand
01:25:28.360 someone would
01:25:28.960 say that
01:25:30.300 there might
01:25:31.820 be more of
01:25:32.420 an issue on
01:25:32.960 one side
01:25:33.520 over the
01:25:33.920 other,
01:25:35.100 we're also
01:25:35.640 going to need
01:25:36.000 to do
01:25:36.300 de-radicalization
01:25:37.140 in Israel,
01:25:37.880 unfortunately.
01:25:38.560 Because Israel
01:25:39.320 has been
01:25:40.000 so significantly
01:25:42.120 radicalized from
01:25:43.020 a religious
01:25:43.480 point of view
01:25:44.020 and politically,
01:25:45.100 they're not
01:25:45.680 just fringe
01:25:46.400 parties.
01:25:47.160 They are the
01:25:48.300 government.
01:25:48.920 They are the
01:25:49.480 main representative.
01:25:50.800 And there are
01:25:51.220 Israelis,
01:25:51.900 including die-hard
01:25:53.540 Zionists that I
01:25:54.400 talked to,
01:25:55.400 who are
01:25:55.800 internally,
01:25:56.840 genuinely terrified
01:25:57.840 of the direction
01:25:59.520 in which the
01:26:00.160 country,
01:26:00.680 and the smart,
01:26:02.100 you know,
01:26:02.540 secular,
01:26:03.360 big business
01:26:03.900 people,
01:26:04.180 a lot of them
01:26:04.600 are leaving
01:26:05.020 and they're
01:26:05.340 going to Europe
01:26:05.840 or they're
01:26:06.100 going to the
01:26:06.440 United States.
01:26:08.060 Here's the
01:26:08.620 difference,
01:26:09.200 Ahmed,
01:26:10.080 I think.
01:26:10.920 Again,
01:26:11.340 correct me if
01:26:11.800 I'm wrong.
01:26:12.500 Israel is a
01:26:13.020 democracy.
01:26:14.220 If the people
01:26:14.880 of Israel
01:26:15.380 felt secure,
01:26:16.900 felt that they
01:26:17.440 were not
01:26:17.800 vulnerable to
01:26:18.440 more attacks,
01:26:19.220 that they
01:26:20.160 have a
01:26:20.580 peaceful
01:26:20.920 neighbor about
01:26:22.280 which they
01:26:22.760 don't need
01:26:23.040 to worry,
01:26:23.960 they wouldn't
01:26:24.480 vote in people
01:26:25.100 like Benjamin
01:26:25.700 Netanyahu.
01:26:26.700 That's the
01:26:27.220 difference.
01:26:27.940 So in a
01:26:28.300 democracy,
01:26:29.160 as people
01:26:29.820 feel more
01:26:30.360 comfortable,
01:26:30.920 they will not
01:26:31.420 vote in people
01:26:32.100 who are that
01:26:33.200 aggressive or who
01:26:35.040 they feel
01:26:35.960 they need
01:26:36.620 on a
01:26:37.220 wartime
01:26:37.760 basis,
01:26:38.460 right?
01:26:39.080 Now,
01:26:39.740 I agree to
01:26:41.040 a large extent
01:26:41.940 in that the
01:26:42.960 right wing in
01:26:43.520 Israel would
01:26:44.100 not be where
01:26:44.840 they're at
01:26:45.400 had it not
01:26:46.080 been for
01:26:46.560 Hamas and
01:26:47.100 other forms
01:26:47.720 of Palestinian
01:26:48.620 extremism.
01:26:49.780 Nevertheless,
01:26:50.820 again,
01:26:51.260 looking back at
01:26:52.660 the West Bank,
01:26:54.020 even though there
01:26:54.660 are instances of
01:26:55.600 violence here and
01:26:56.800 there,
01:26:57.700 for most of the
01:26:59.160 last 15 years,
01:27:00.920 if you will,
01:27:02.020 you have the
01:27:02.360 Palestinian authority
01:27:03.300 with U.S.
01:27:04.180 funding and
01:27:04.740 support and
01:27:06.060 training,
01:27:07.660 coordinating with
01:27:08.280 Israel,
01:27:09.560 keeping Hamas
01:27:10.420 out.
01:27:11.520 Yes,
01:27:12.020 some armed
01:27:13.460 guys in
01:27:14.180 Janine and
01:27:14.820 Nablus and
01:27:15.760 in the northern
01:27:16.300 parts of the
01:27:16.800 West Bank,
01:27:17.240 they're there
01:27:17.620 every now and
01:27:18.180 then.
01:27:18.620 Every now and
01:27:19.440 then you'll
01:27:19.840 get a shooting
01:27:20.500 here and
01:27:20.860 there.
01:27:21.780 But what I'm
01:27:23.080 saying is there
01:27:24.540 was no particular
01:27:25.820 threat from the
01:27:27.360 West Bank and
01:27:27.960 you had the
01:27:28.360 wall in there,
01:27:29.640 the separation
01:27:30.240 wall, the
01:27:31.280 barrier, the
01:27:31.980 security wall.
01:27:32.680 And yet there
01:27:34.920 was further
01:27:35.840 radicalization within
01:27:37.580 Israeli society that
01:27:39.400 resulted in the
01:27:40.380 worsening of the
01:27:41.280 settlements.
01:27:41.940 I'm not dismissing
01:27:43.140 what you're saying.
01:27:43.860 I'm saying that
01:27:44.660 there's a strain of
01:27:46.060 radicalism within
01:27:47.000 Israel that,
01:27:48.580 quite frankly,
01:27:49.180 no longer believes
01:27:50.180 it's necessary to
01:27:51.440 have peace with the
01:27:52.200 Palestinians.
01:27:52.940 They view the
01:27:53.780 conflict in purely
01:27:54.940 security mindset
01:27:56.880 that you can manage
01:27:58.300 the occupation.
01:27:59.360 Yeah, totally.
01:28:00.300 I think that's
01:28:01.100 true.
01:28:01.360 I think after
01:28:03.280 October 7th, it's
01:28:04.500 hard to see why
01:28:05.200 they wouldn't feel
01:28:06.020 that way, right?
01:28:07.220 And so that's
01:28:08.140 why I think what
01:28:09.040 you're saying is
01:28:09.480 very important,
01:28:10.260 that as there
01:28:13.360 is less violence,
01:28:14.540 the hope is that
01:28:15.640 both sides can
01:28:17.000 move towards an
01:28:18.940 appreciation of the
01:28:19.980 fact that that's
01:28:20.640 actually better than
01:28:21.440 what they have now.
01:28:22.440 And going back to
01:28:22.960 what you said
01:28:23.440 earlier about the
01:28:24.320 religious component,
01:28:25.480 I mean, I'm
01:28:26.020 fascinated by some
01:28:27.180 of the
01:28:27.460 de-radicalization
01:28:28.360 attempts that
01:28:29.720 are efforts that
01:28:30.500 are more top
01:28:31.840 down and that
01:28:32.620 they are quickly
01:28:33.380 implemented.
01:28:34.340 They tend to
01:28:35.680 work in the
01:28:36.680 short term.
01:28:37.780 There are
01:28:38.580 questions about
01:28:39.480 when the
01:28:40.740 person up top
01:28:41.960 is gone,
01:28:42.660 when the
01:28:42.980 policy is no
01:28:43.760 longer top
01:28:45.360 down, will
01:28:46.800 it actually
01:28:48.020 last in a
01:28:48.980 grassroots sense?
01:28:50.200 That's one.
01:28:51.000 And then I
01:28:51.400 talked to an
01:28:51.960 Indonesian
01:28:52.500 major religious
01:28:54.000 figure, and
01:28:56.040 he said that
01:28:56.900 we have
01:28:58.260 aspirations as
01:28:59.560 a government,
01:29:00.220 as Muslim
01:29:01.200 organizations in
01:29:02.320 Indonesia, to
01:29:03.580 engage in
01:29:04.160 de-radicalization
01:29:05.060 and to
01:29:06.280 normalize
01:29:06.900 relations with
01:29:07.600 Israel.
01:29:08.640 But because
01:29:09.600 we're a
01:29:09.920 democracy, unlike
01:29:11.000 parts of the
01:29:12.100 Arab world and
01:29:13.020 the Gulf, we
01:29:13.940 can't do the
01:29:14.660 top-down
01:29:15.100 approach.
01:29:16.300 We're elected
01:29:16.980 and our
01:29:18.220 constituencies are
01:29:21.260 susceptible to
01:29:22.120 this radicalization
01:29:23.160 when it comes to
01:29:23.880 the Israel issue
01:29:24.780 and when it
01:29:25.200 comes to
01:29:25.820 normalizing
01:29:26.720 Indonesian
01:29:27.260 relations with
01:29:29.160 Israel.
01:29:29.960 So the
01:29:31.180 other thing is
01:29:31.800 that I
01:29:32.480 talked to
01:29:33.140 just three
01:29:35.060 days ago a
01:29:35.680 very senior
01:29:36.460 Egyptian
01:29:36.900 official who
01:29:37.980 described to
01:29:39.080 me the
01:29:40.520 de-radicalization
01:29:42.120 of Egypt after
01:29:43.400 the 2013
01:29:44.900 overthrow of the
01:29:45.840 Muslim
01:29:46.060 Brotherhood and
01:29:47.860 how people in
01:29:49.280 Egypt,
01:29:49.760 unfortunately,
01:29:50.980 fortunately,
01:29:51.840 rather,
01:29:52.060 turned against
01:29:53.840 the Islamism
01:29:54.780 of the
01:29:55.220 Muslim
01:29:55.460 Brotherhood.
01:29:56.040 They turned
01:29:56.520 against the
01:29:57.300 instability that
01:29:58.240 came with it.
01:29:59.500 And part of
01:30:00.880 the de-radicalization
01:30:01.860 in Egypt wasn't
01:30:02.820 just prosperity
01:30:03.800 and progress,
01:30:04.740 but it was
01:30:05.300 about the
01:30:05.700 Egyptian nation
01:30:06.640 and nationalism
01:30:07.460 and progress
01:30:08.480 and protecting
01:30:09.140 the Egyptian
01:30:10.080 state.
01:30:11.600 He said,
01:30:12.280 unfortunately,
01:30:12.920 a lot of that
01:30:13.540 has been reversed
01:30:14.600 since October 7.
01:30:15.780 He said the
01:30:16.480 death and
01:30:16.900 destruction in
01:30:17.620 Gaza and the
01:30:18.900 Egyptian state
01:30:19.780 and its security
01:30:20.720 apparatus and
01:30:21.480 its political
01:30:22.120 and diplomatic
01:30:22.780 apparatuses are
01:30:23.900 struggling to
01:30:24.900 contain the
01:30:25.720 boiling within
01:30:27.340 Egyptian society
01:30:28.500 whereby years
01:30:30.920 worth of using
01:30:32.180 al-Azhar and
01:30:33.380 the religious
01:30:33.960 institutions,
01:30:35.580 in part organically,
01:30:37.360 in part top
01:30:38.140 down, you make
01:30:40.020 progress, but it
01:30:41.740 gets undone by
01:30:43.920 political events
01:30:45.000 or by the
01:30:45.620 horrors that are
01:30:46.200 happening in Gaza.
01:30:46.880 I've talked to
01:30:47.960 Jewish partners
01:30:48.660 and friends here
01:30:49.680 in New York
01:30:50.560 who engaged in
01:30:51.920 a whole host of
01:30:52.980 interfaith communication
01:30:55.020 and dialogue with
01:30:56.040 the Muslim community
01:30:57.000 and they felt
01:30:58.740 utterly betrayed
01:31:00.040 and disillusioned
01:31:01.360 when October 7
01:31:02.220 happened and
01:31:03.520 not one of the
01:31:04.980 Muslim leaders
01:31:06.080 within New York
01:31:07.060 City came out
01:31:07.980 and said anything
01:31:08.940 to acknowledge the
01:31:10.600 humanity of
01:31:11.300 Israeli hostages
01:31:12.200 or Israeli victims
01:31:13.500 of October 7
01:31:14.600 and they were
01:31:16.540 questioning, like
01:31:17.440 I've spent years
01:31:18.580 of my life
01:31:19.300 working on this
01:31:20.120 interfaith work
01:31:21.720 and October 7
01:31:23.180 in a sense
01:31:23.840 shattered it.
01:31:25.100 And so that's
01:31:26.060 like this
01:31:26.860 conflict, the
01:31:28.640 massacre on
01:31:29.440 October 7
01:31:30.000 and the horrendous
01:31:31.240 war that followed
01:31:32.140 afterwards
01:31:32.800 is presenting
01:31:34.460 never seen
01:31:35.320 before trends
01:31:36.280 of radicalization
01:31:37.880 of the
01:31:39.680 tensions rising
01:31:40.900 and the
01:31:41.340 temperatures rising
01:31:42.320 in between
01:31:42.960 different communities
01:31:44.060 of nation-states
01:31:46.260 having a hard
01:31:46.940 time quelling
01:31:48.200 internal dissent.
01:31:49.580 The Jordanians
01:31:50.320 are struggling
01:31:50.880 just like the
01:31:51.560 Egyptians
01:31:51.920 with containing
01:31:53.820 their populations
01:31:54.760 right on the
01:31:55.320 borders.
01:31:56.440 And I don't
01:31:57.520 know what
01:31:58.200 the long-term
01:31:58.860 answer is to
01:31:59.660 that beyond
01:32:00.540 of course
01:32:01.240 agreeing that
01:32:02.040 there needs
01:32:02.580 to be
01:32:03.000 de-radicalization
01:32:04.440 but that will
01:32:05.600 only work
01:32:06.920 if it is
01:32:07.880 coupled with
01:32:08.660 progress on
01:32:09.680 the ground
01:32:10.140 to show that
01:32:11.300 basically
01:32:12.100 de-radicalization
01:32:13.160 gives you
01:32:14.100 better life.
01:32:15.200 It's a
01:32:15.440 positive
01:32:15.880 transformation
01:32:16.440 and more
01:32:17.580 importantly
01:32:18.100 it has to
01:32:18.920 be matched
01:32:19.480 with a
01:32:19.980 broader
01:32:20.540 renaissance
01:32:22.200 that transforms
01:32:23.720 the mindset
01:32:24.560 of the
01:32:25.280 Palestinian people
01:32:26.260 in Gaza
01:32:26.900 to think
01:32:27.520 we're going
01:32:28.700 to invest
01:32:29.460 all of our
01:32:30.700 time and
01:32:31.140 resources
01:32:31.580 into turning
01:32:32.420 this into
01:32:33.040 the pride
01:32:33.600 and joy
01:32:34.120 of the
01:32:34.820 Palestinian
01:32:35.240 people
01:32:35.660 and I
01:32:36.200 want to be
01:32:36.680 a part of
01:32:37.080 that.
01:32:37.300 There are
01:32:37.600 numerous
01:32:37.980 people that
01:32:38.500 are 50
01:32:38.960 times smarter
01:32:39.640 than me
01:32:40.140 who want
01:32:40.960 to be a
01:32:41.360 part of
01:32:41.620 that.
01:32:42.880 Unfortunately
01:32:43.320 in the
01:32:43.880 short term
01:32:44.440 it is
01:32:44.860 hopeless
01:32:45.300 in the
01:32:45.760 sense
01:32:45.980 that I
01:32:46.380 don't know
01:32:46.640 how long
01:32:47.000 this war
01:32:47.360 is going
01:32:47.580 to go
01:32:47.800 on.
01:32:48.420 Hamas
01:32:48.840 is a
01:32:50.520 deadly
01:32:50.820 menace
01:32:51.200 and it's
01:32:51.500 going to
01:32:51.720 fight on
01:32:52.180 to the
01:32:52.480 last
01:32:52.800 Gazan
01:32:53.280 and that's
01:32:54.960 where I
01:32:55.280 don't think
01:32:55.920 some of
01:32:56.280 those
01:32:56.440 improvements
01:32:56.980 I think
01:32:58.220 we need
01:32:58.500 to start
01:32:58.880 acting now
01:32:59.700 and not
01:33:00.220 wait for
01:33:00.880 this end
01:33:01.900 of the
01:33:02.220 war
01:33:02.580 which might
01:33:03.460 go on
01:33:04.760 for another
01:33:05.140 year
01:33:05.500 particularly
01:33:06.240 if the
01:33:07.620 results of
01:33:08.360 the US
01:33:08.720 election
01:33:09.180 sway one
01:33:09.940 direction
01:33:10.620 or another
01:33:11.160 that could
01:33:12.120 very much
01:33:12.880 have a
01:33:13.400 serious
01:33:13.840 impact
01:33:14.380 on the
01:33:15.000 war in
01:33:15.420 Gaza
01:33:15.680 could also
01:33:16.800 open up
01:33:17.520 opportunities
01:33:18.220 for some
01:33:18.800 to do
01:33:19.200 more of
01:33:19.720 the direct
01:33:20.260 confrontation
01:33:21.380 with Iran
01:33:22.080 and that
01:33:22.920 may prove
01:33:23.480 advantageous
01:33:24.280 it may be
01:33:25.020 a disaster
01:33:25.640 but I
01:33:26.460 don't think
01:33:27.180 we should
01:33:28.460 wait until
01:33:29.180 the end
01:33:29.520 of the
01:33:29.780 war
01:33:30.080 to start
01:33:31.000 improving
01:33:31.580 the realities
01:33:32.320 on the
01:33:32.720 ground
01:33:32.940 for people
01:33:33.360 in Gaza
01:33:33.800 to have
01:33:34.520 these safe
01:33:35.060 zones
01:33:35.440 to have
01:33:36.020 these
01:33:36.260 clusters
01:33:36.680 because
01:33:37.360 then
01:33:37.880 the
01:33:38.440 community
01:33:38.860 can
01:33:39.220 formally
01:33:40.100 feel
01:33:40.460 safe
01:33:40.820 and
01:33:40.980 protected
01:33:41.340 from
01:33:41.980 Hamas
01:33:42.380 then
01:33:42.940 they
01:33:43.160 can
01:33:43.380 potentially
01:33:43.940 give
01:33:44.240 intelligence
01:33:44.780 and
01:33:45.040 information
01:33:45.500 if they
01:33:45.820 know
01:33:45.940 anything
01:33:46.320 about
01:33:46.840 the
01:33:46.980 remaining
01:33:47.260 hostages
01:33:47.800 then we
01:33:48.680 can see
01:33:49.180 the emergence
01:33:49.840 of organic
01:33:50.680 leadership
01:33:51.220 in these
01:33:51.800 clusters
01:33:52.280 that could
01:33:53.300 prevent
01:33:53.760 Hamas
01:33:54.140 from coming
01:33:54.560 into their
01:33:55.000 neighborhoods
01:33:55.360 that could
01:33:56.080 prevent
01:33:56.540 Hamas
01:33:57.080 from
01:33:57.320 reconstituting
01:33:58.120 as a
01:33:58.440 government
01:33:58.780 and that
01:33:59.500 could
01:33:59.700 protect
01:34:00.240 guys
01:34:00.760 like me
01:34:01.340 I mean
01:34:01.800 you think
01:34:02.400 I think
01:34:02.920 I don't
01:34:03.500 think
01:34:03.680 I
01:34:03.940 some people
01:34:04.820 are like
01:34:05.100 oh you're
01:34:05.560 so courageous
01:34:06.160 you're so
01:34:06.580 this and that
01:34:07.360 it's like dude
01:34:07.820 I'm in the
01:34:08.480 United States
01:34:09.100 okay like
01:34:09.700 I have the
01:34:10.140 ability to
01:34:10.700 speak my
01:34:11.080 mind
01:34:11.260 imagine being
01:34:12.420 an Ahmad
01:34:12.960 in Gaza
01:34:13.560 right now
01:34:14.100 and there
01:34:14.800 are many
01:34:15.420 many many
01:34:16.360 Ahmads
01:34:16.840 that message
01:34:17.420 me on a
01:34:17.940 regular
01:34:18.200 basis
01:34:18.620 so
01:34:19.220 while it's
01:34:20.560 depressing
01:34:21.020 on one hand
01:34:21.740 that my
01:34:22.200 life expectancy
01:34:23.040 might not be
01:34:23.940 that high
01:34:24.400 because of
01:34:24.860 the work
01:34:25.160 that I'm
01:34:25.420 doing
01:34:25.680 it is also
01:34:26.920 inspiring
01:34:27.520 that
01:34:27.980 there are
01:34:29.880 enough of
01:34:30.500 me
01:34:30.760 and with
01:34:31.320 enough of
01:34:31.860 a critical
01:34:32.320 mass
01:34:32.920 they'll
01:34:33.980 take me
01:34:34.440 out
01:34:34.620 they'll
01:34:34.840 take
01:34:35.080 10 other
01:34:35.800 guys out
01:34:36.260 but there'll
01:34:36.660 still be
01:34:37.240 enough of
01:34:37.800 a base
01:34:38.200 there
01:34:38.520 that moves
01:34:39.420 the needle
01:34:39.800 on this
01:34:40.240 issue
01:34:40.500 in favor
01:34:41.120 of a
01:34:41.640 prosperous
01:34:42.360 Gaza
01:34:42.760 Ahmed
01:34:43.900 it's been
01:34:44.320 an absolute
01:34:44.980 pleasure
01:34:45.320 thank you
01:34:45.700 so much
01:34:46.100 for coming
01:34:46.400 on the
01:34:46.620 show
01:34:46.760 we wish
01:34:47.080 you
01:34:47.280 all the
01:34:47.760 very best
01:34:48.280 with your
01:34:48.660 endeavors
01:34:49.040 and fight
01:34:49.600 the good
01:34:49.900 fight
01:34:50.160 before we
01:34:51.180 move on
01:34:51.580 to
01:34:51.720 Substack
01:34:52.260 where
01:34:52.600 our
01:34:53.360 supporters
01:34:53.720 get to
01:34:54.240 ask
01:34:54.580 their
01:34:54.880 questions
01:34:55.360 to you
01:34:55.720 we always
01:34:56.440 end on
01:34:56.740 the final
01:34:57.100 question
01:34:57.500 which is
01:34:58.020 what's
01:34:58.600 the one
01:34:58.820 thing
01:34:58.980 we're not
01:34:59.300 talking
01:34:59.660 about
01:34:59.880 as a
01:35:00.280 society
01:35:00.680 that we
01:35:00.980 really
01:35:01.200 should
01:35:01.400 be
01:35:01.620 I think
01:35:02.680 we're not
01:35:03.120 talking
01:35:03.540 enough
01:35:03.960 about
01:35:04.400 the
01:35:05.340 moderate
01:35:06.000 Palestinians
01:35:06.780 and Arabs
01:35:07.500 and Muslims
01:35:08.100 that exist
01:35:08.680 we see
01:35:09.180 so much
01:35:10.100 of the
01:35:10.880 radical
01:35:11.260 elements
01:35:11.860 we see
01:35:12.280 so many
01:35:12.740 of the
01:35:13.000 loud
01:35:13.240 voices
01:35:13.660 we're
01:35:14.520 not
01:35:14.940 talking
01:35:15.460 about
01:35:15.960 the fact
01:35:16.540 that
01:35:16.840 just
01:35:17.140 statistically
01:35:17.820 it's
01:35:18.940 impossible
01:35:19.380 that all
01:35:19.920 Arabs
01:35:20.180 or all
01:35:20.460 Palestinians
01:35:20.800 or all
01:35:21.220 Muslims
01:35:21.440 or all
01:35:21.840 pro-Palestine
01:35:22.400 people
01:35:22.680 are radical
01:35:23.180 there are
01:35:24.100 others
01:35:24.640 out there
01:35:25.300 like me
01:35:26.040 who
01:35:27.280 unfortunately
01:35:27.960 like when I
01:35:28.640 talk to
01:35:29.080 big
01:35:29.660 major
01:35:30.100 media
01:35:30.460 outlets
01:35:30.960 I mean
01:35:32.700 I've been
01:35:33.540 published
01:35:33.920 in a lot
01:35:34.300 of them
01:35:34.480 but I'm
01:35:35.380 not very
01:35:36.120 sexy
01:35:36.520 like if
01:35:36.900 I said
01:35:37.460 I'm like
01:35:38.340 healing
01:35:38.840 and reconciliation
01:35:39.700 and I lost
01:35:40.660 my family
01:35:41.200 members
01:35:41.600 I'm pissed
01:35:42.120 at Israel
01:35:42.660 but I don't
01:35:43.300 want to
01:35:43.580 annihilate
01:35:44.700 Israel
01:35:44.960 I believe
01:35:45.480 in Israel's
01:35:46.000 right to
01:35:46.320 exist
01:35:46.560 I want to
01:35:46.920 make peace
01:35:47.400 with the
01:35:47.660 Israelis
01:35:48.020 for some
01:35:49.840 people
01:35:50.140 that's
01:35:50.460 inspiring
01:35:50.880 but if
01:35:51.300 I were
01:35:51.620 like
01:35:51.940 Israel
01:35:52.800 killed
01:35:53.160 my family
01:35:53.700 and I
01:35:54.000 will seek
01:35:54.460 revenge
01:35:54.900 and they
01:35:55.240 will never
01:35:55.640 know
01:35:55.860 peace
01:35:56.140 in my
01:35:56.360 life
01:35:56.460 like
01:35:56.860 I'm
01:35:57.460 willing
01:35:57.680 to bet
01:35:58.060 you
01:35:58.220 that the
01:35:58.560 New York
01:35:58.780 Times
01:35:59.060 would run
01:35:59.480 that op-ed
01:36:00.020 of mine
01:36:00.580 but when
01:36:01.180 I submit
01:36:01.820 an op-ed
01:36:02.580 saying
01:36:03.080 Israel
01:36:03.760 killed
01:36:04.120 my family
01:36:04.720 and I
01:36:05.200 want peace
01:36:05.700 and coexistence
01:36:06.600 that's not
01:36:08.920 going to
01:36:09.140 click
01:36:09.380 you know
01:36:09.700 there are
01:36:10.380 many like
01:36:10.920 me
01:36:11.200 here in
01:36:11.960 America
01:36:12.400 and our
01:36:13.540 Jewish
01:36:13.900 allies
01:36:14.300 and brothers
01:36:14.760 and sisters
01:36:15.340 our
01:36:15.820 non-Jewish
01:36:17.020 friends
01:36:17.460 policymakers
01:36:18.640 media outlets
01:36:20.040 like we
01:36:20.400 should seek
01:36:20.960 them out
01:36:21.300 we should
01:36:21.640 empower
01:36:22.200 them
01:36:22.440 we should
01:36:22.740 we're not
01:36:23.380 talking enough
01:36:24.280 about them
01:36:24.760 because we're
01:36:25.320 so like
01:36:26.000 oh they're
01:36:26.740 flying Hamas
01:36:27.380 flag
01:36:27.700 oh this
01:36:28.240 is so
01:36:28.540 repulsive
01:36:28.960 we're
01:36:29.440 focused
01:36:29.980 on talking
01:36:30.440 about the
01:36:30.880 radicals
01:36:31.600 but forgetting
01:36:32.240 that just
01:36:32.960 statistically
01:36:33.760 they might
01:36:34.620 not be
01:36:34.980 outspoken
01:36:35.460 but there
01:36:35.800 are plenty
01:36:36.400 of moderate
01:36:37.020 voices
01:36:37.380 and those
01:36:38.160 are the ones
01:36:38.580 that we
01:36:38.840 need to
01:36:39.180 elevate
01:36:39.520 make it
01:36:40.560 sexy
01:36:40.960 to be
01:36:41.360 moderate
01:36:41.800 make it
01:36:42.500 appealing
01:36:44.480 and attractive
01:36:45.120 to be a
01:36:45.700 moderate
01:36:45.960 make moderates
01:36:46.700 great again
01:36:47.200 exactly
01:36:47.940 well that's
01:36:48.660 why we wanted
01:36:49.160 to have you
01:36:49.620 on it's been
01:36:50.020 a real pleasure
01:36:50.560 head on over
01:36:51.300 to Substack
01:36:51.920 to hear
01:36:52.260 Ahmed answer
01:36:52.960 your questions
01:36:53.720 how dangerous
01:36:56.560 is it to exist
01:36:57.320 as a Palestinian
01:36:58.060 in Gaza
01:36:58.660 while harboring
01:36:59.840 anti-Hamas
01:37:00.440 views
01:37:00.880 and
01:37:01.880 and this is
01:37:02.580 the important
01:37:03.000 bit
01:37:03.220 what is your
01:37:03.700 best guess
01:37:04.300 as to the
01:37:04.820 percentage
01:37:05.240 of the
01:37:05.620 population
01:37:06.200 that is
01:37:06.840 in that
01:37:07.260 camp