TRIGGERnometry - Israel Killed My Family But I Want Peace

00:00:00.640 I have 31 dead family members from three separate airstrikes, and I have no idea why they're dead.

00:00:06.900 Literally half of my f***ing family is dead.

00:00:09.380 Over time, and especially now, Hamas' support is absolutely in the toilet.

00:00:15.180 They're seeing how Hamas behaves.

00:00:17.000 They're seeing that there's no strategy.

00:00:18.820 They're seeing that this is merely a nihilistic exercise of suicidal adventurism, that we are pawns.

00:00:25.820 They most nefariously served the aims of Prime Minister Netanyahu and the messianic right-wing in Israel,

00:00:33.620 who used Hamas and allowed Hamas' political rise to fester because they could weaken the Palestinian authority.

00:00:42.460 This is an opportunity to shape the next generation of Palestinian governors in Gaza.

00:00:49.480 Ahmed, great to have you on the show.

00:00:51.380 Thanks so much for having me.

00:00:52.300 No, it's a pleasure.

00:00:52.900 You're one of the voices on the pro-Palestine side, if you might frame it like that.

00:00:59.140 One of the very few, actually, that certainly we've seen.

00:01:02.560 We've had many guests on the show, several guests on the show, I should say, who are pro-Palestinian.

00:01:07.540 And with all respect, we can never get a straight answer to quite simple questions.

00:01:13.120 And you are somebody that I see who's actually attempting to do that and present a coherent and rational case for what you believe.

00:01:19.600 So it's a great pleasure to have you on.

00:01:20.900 We're going to talk about your opinions and suggestions and proposals in a second.

00:01:25.520 But you've also had a very, you know, to put it very mildly, interesting personal story and situation.

00:01:32.060 So tell us about who you are before we get into what you think.

00:01:34.880 Certainly.

00:01:35.320 Well, thanks again for having me.

00:01:36.520 I've really been a long, long time fan.

00:01:38.900 And I came to the United States in 2005 as part of a post-9-11 cultural exchange program.

00:01:45.620 So I was 15 at the time.

00:01:46.900 It brought me here to be in high school for a year, live with a host family, experience the United States, and hopefully take that back to my native land and native country and build cultural bridges.

00:01:57.880 It brought young Middle Eastern and Muslim students to the United States.

00:02:01.800 And I was lucky to be in the San Francisco Bay Area.

00:02:04.700 I left one month before the withdrawal.

00:02:07.340 I'm from the Gaza Strip.

00:02:09.000 I was born in Saudi Arabia, went back and forth, as is very common for a lot of people in Gaza, doctors, teachers, nurses.

00:02:15.740 You go abroad, mainly to the Gulf.

00:02:17.680 You work.

00:02:18.380 You build up a little nest.

00:02:19.880 And then you bring that back to the Gaza Strip.

00:02:22.100 Our family went back and forth, lived in Gaza, and then Saudi in the 90s, back and forth.

00:02:27.780 And then we moved back permanently right before the second Intifada.

00:02:31.500 And so I grew up in the Gaza Strip, mainly, some in Saudi Arabia, and then came here for a year.

00:02:38.500 When I finished that year of high school exchange, I tried to go back to the Gaza Strip.

00:02:43.200 I was stuck in Egypt trying to go into the Gaza through the Rafah border crossing.

00:02:47.780 And Gaza doesn't have its own entry and exit points, so you have to go through Egypt.

00:02:54.320 And upon attempting to do that, unfortunately, Hamas abducted Gilad Shalit, a young Israeli soldier, in June of 2006 in Gaza.

00:03:04.600 And this was soon followed up by the 33-day war in Lebanon with Hezbollah.

00:03:11.260 So it was a very miniaturized October 7, if you will.

00:03:14.200 And so I was stuck in Egypt for months, unable to go back.

00:03:16.540 Thanks to the support of human rights and peace activists in the United States, including even a Holocaust survivor who really helped make this happen.

00:03:26.680 I came back to the United States, applied for political asylum status.

00:03:31.240 This was after Hamas had won the infamous parliamentary elections in 2006.

00:03:36.680 And there was a sobering civil war in the Gaza Strip.

00:03:40.700 I applied for political asylum.

00:03:42.220 On the very day of my asylum interview was June 14, 2007, which is the very day that Hamas violently took over the Gaza Strip and forcefully ejected the Palestinian Authority.

00:03:53.860 It was a huge boost to my case.

00:03:55.500 And I ultimately got asylum.

00:03:57.320 I was basically the first of a wave of Palestinians from Gaza who received asylum in the United States because of Hamas' control of Gaza.

00:04:06.780 And so I became a citizen in 2014.

00:04:10.600 So that was 10 years ago.

00:04:12.540 And I'll tell you a funny story.

00:04:14.700 When I became a citizen, when I had the asylum interview, the United States government formally classified me as stateless, as a former country of nationality, because Gaza had just that day been taken over.

00:04:28.200 It wasn't sure if the U.S. government—first of all, the U.S. government doesn't acknowledge the state of Palestine.

00:04:32.260 And even in the confines of, you know, Palestinian territories, or occupied Palestinian territories, they were like, what is Gaza right now?

00:04:40.600 So they just put me down a stateless.

00:04:42.340 When I became a citizen, we had to basically shop around for a former country to put on the certificate.

00:04:50.820 And I was like, okay, fine.

00:04:52.400 I want, like, a fancy—I want to be a former, like, Luxembourg citizen or whatever.

00:04:57.400 But my choices came down to Saudi Arabia or Israel.

00:04:59.620 So I went with Saudi Arabia.

00:05:02.520 But so, yeah.

00:05:03.760 You're like a hard life, dude.

00:05:05.100 It was just like, you know.

00:05:07.000 And I was never a Saudi citizen, obviously.

00:05:09.620 But anyway, so that's who I am.

00:05:12.180 I worked in right before October 7th for the last eight years, up until two months ago.

00:05:16.820 My day job was working in international development, mainly in the Global South in Africa, with a philanthropic organization that does global health on poverty alleviation initiatives.

00:05:28.080 I also, in 2015, put myself out there on the map by building a nonprofit organization in the United States to build an internationally run Israeli-approved airport in the Gaza Strip.

00:05:43.400 And it was not just an infrastructure project, but it was meant to stabilize Gaza through a non-Egyptian and non-Israeli entry and exit point to facilitate freedom of movement for people and goods.

00:05:55.600 And it was meant to slowly pull the rug from underneath Hamas by internationalizing big-ticket items in the Gaza Strip and forcing their hand to avoid engaging in future confrontations.

00:06:08.640 So the reason why I bring that up is that it very much so played a role.

00:06:13.920 And we can talk about this later in where I am today.

00:06:17.140 What about your family?

00:06:17.880 Are they still in Gaza?

00:06:18.640 So many of them remained, and most of them, in fact, remained in Gaza.

00:06:23.220 None of them came with me to the United States.

00:06:25.260 And so over the years, a few of them managed to get out just in pursuit.

00:06:30.780 My brother's in Germany right now.

00:06:32.260 He was an UNRWA doctor.

00:06:34.520 He ran the beach clinic in there.

00:06:36.820 My father stayed, and he passed away four years ago.

00:06:40.260 But he ran the UNRWA, the UN Refugee and Works Agency Clinic, in Jabalia, which is now site to fierce fighting in northern Gaza.

00:06:50.360 My middle, my oldest brother is currently in Gaza.

00:06:53.600 He runs a major medical NGO.

00:06:56.520 He's a major director in there.

00:06:59.100 It's a British NGO.

00:07:01.700 And many, and my mom and other siblings stayed in there.

00:07:06.440 So did my immediate and extended family.

00:07:08.380 And what do you hear from them?

00:07:11.820 Well, unfortunately, it's been tragedy after tragedy since October 7.

00:07:17.600 I have lost a combined 31 now, 32 of my immediate and extended family.

00:07:25.700 The house that I grew up in, in Gaza City in the north, was destroyed by an Israeli airstrike on October 13.

00:07:34.360 Tomorrow, there were three separate airstrikes that got us to that number.

00:07:41.320 There was a, tomorrow actually is also the first anniversary of the second airstrike that also killed my cousin, my dad's youngest brother, Uncle Riyadh.

00:07:50.960 But the first two strikes on October 13 and October 25, they killed a 12-year-old niece, Farah, and wounded her identical twin very badly, destroyed my family home.

00:08:03.440 My brother and his wife and four children were inside the home when it was hit.

00:08:08.100 But he managed, they managed to push their way out of the rubble.

00:08:12.960 I got his wife and four children out of the Gaza Strip one day before the invasion of Rafa, through the Rafa border crossing.

00:08:20.760 I got a little bit of help from the U.S. government for the children, and then I had to do, everybody else had to do for my sister-in-law.

00:08:31.120 And then, yeah, unfortunately, we've lost contact.

00:08:33.960 And then we've lost contact with many of the surviving, my dad's two surviving brothers, Uncle Ibrahim and Uncle Imad, who are in northern Gaza.

00:08:45.760 I don't know, I mean, my immediate cousins, and these are people that I've been in contact with.

00:08:51.960 I mean, I've kept in contact with Gaza throughout my time.

00:08:54.920 I didn't just get a life in the United States and say, like, I love it here.

00:08:58.480 Like, you know, forget about Gaza.

00:08:59.960 Gaza was very much so a parallel universe for me.

00:09:03.860 And so I...

00:09:05.040 What does your brother tell you?

00:09:06.700 Because it sounds like he's on the ground dealing with, you know, what is going on there.

00:09:11.040 What do you hear from him?

00:09:11.960 It's difficult, painful, stressful.

00:09:16.400 He sends me daily updates.

00:09:18.260 We have daily check-ins multiple times a day because he's in the field.

00:09:23.120 He's working with a humanitarian.

00:09:25.220 He's bringing in the trucks, and he's bringing in supplies with his team, obviously,

00:09:29.940 and in cooperation with other NGOs and humanitarian organizations.

00:09:35.360 There's the internal problems with the breakdown of law and order.

00:09:42.320 There's Hamas and looters, and there's instability.

00:09:46.400 There's poverty, desperation, crowded, displaced zones, people fleeing multiple times.

00:09:54.860 Then there's Israeli airstrikes with drones, with quadcopters that have become particularly menacing.

00:10:01.060 These are, they deploy much smaller munitions, but they also do, they're very precise,

00:10:08.120 and they're very, like, you know, menacing because you can hear them whizzing around.

00:10:12.820 His home, he had another apartment.

00:10:15.520 He had to basically flee probably seven or eight different times throughout this war.

00:10:20.960 He's had to, they have safe houses for his organization where they work,

00:10:27.680 and they coordinate with the IDF and give the Israeli military their coordinates.

00:10:32.740 If they're bringing in shipments, like, they coordinate closely with the IDF,

00:10:37.020 but that still didn't prevent their safe house, unfortunately, from being hit a couple of times.

00:10:43.580 And they share resources with Doctors Without Borders and the International Rescue Committees

00:10:48.900 with Medical Aid for Palestinians, that's his organization.

00:10:52.200 So they've pulled resources.

00:10:54.020 And so it's a horrendous situation from Israeli bombardment, internal, just a society in turmoil

00:11:01.220 that's, like, completely broken down in terms of the cohesion, the prices of everything.

00:11:07.180 My goodness, the prices, he tells me, and I, they use shekels there and U.S. dollars,

00:11:11.840 shekels the Israeli currency, it is, I mean, horrendous.

00:11:16.440 Like, now a pack of cigarette costs $1,000.

00:11:20.580 Like, the war economy, yes, like, soap can cost $100.

00:11:27.100 Basically, like, Kleenex, I mean, the price of goods has, I've gone 10, 20, 30, 100x.

00:11:34.460 He once had, like, he once had a, he's a smoker, he had, like, a box of cigarettes.

00:11:44.160 And he got an offer for, like, $10,000 for that box of cigarettes.

00:11:49.100 I mean, it is that insane.

00:11:51.100 There's no cash coming in.

00:11:53.060 So there's a circular economy with just the dollars and the shekels.

00:11:57.420 There's only a single, a single, there was only a single ATM that was functioning.

00:12:03.380 That was the Bank of Palestine and Rafa.

00:12:05.260 I believe there's another single ATM in Kanyunis, or no, I think it's in Derbalah now.

00:12:11.460 And there's looters everywhere.

00:12:14.520 He described to me, for example, how 100, for example, of 100 trucks that recently came in, humanitarian aid trucks,

00:12:23.680 73 of them were looted and stolen by organized criminals.

00:12:28.280 He did say...

00:12:29.040 Do you mean Hamas or someone else?

00:12:30.340 So that's the interesting thing.

00:12:32.200 Some of them are Hamas or remnants of Hamas.

00:12:35.160 But he actually said that it's become more and more clear.

00:12:39.560 These are simply organized criminals.

00:12:41.880 I mean, remember Gaza had, like any society has, you know, a class of criminals who were released from jails.

00:12:50.520 And also when a lot of the clans and the families fled northern Gaza to the south, they fled with their guns and weaponry with them.

00:12:58.420 We're talking like AKs and small firearms.

00:13:03.080 But that enables them to engage in thuggery, engage in organized crime.

00:13:08.820 And there are, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to be made off a war economy.

00:13:15.100 So Hamas did, in fact, intercept many of the trucks that are coming in.

00:13:22.320 But we've got to also remember, we're not talking about a cohesive Hamas that's like this pyramid structure with, you know, Hamas from the top, issues orders to steal.

00:13:31.220 We're talking about disparate cells that are operating that, I mean, we're basically talking about a hundred different Hamases in the sense of even the guys that are holding the Israeli hostages.

00:13:41.780 They're not this cohesive, unified structure.

00:13:44.400 There's some communication left in between the Hamas in north, Hamas in Rafah, where Senwar was killed, Hamas in Khan Yunus or in Deir al-Balah in the central part of the Gaza Strip.

00:13:55.040 But they're not, like, coordinating their activities.

00:13:58.780 So remnants of Hamas, for example, from my brother and also a whole host of other contacts.

00:14:04.680 I don't just talk to my brother.

00:14:06.460 When I did the Gaza airport, I developed a large network of people in Gaza who, I mean, that's how, I don't know if you saw my piece in Newsweek.

00:14:14.120 I talked to Senwar in 2017 and I described that.

00:14:17.860 I didn't call him directly.

00:14:19.280 I used intermediaries to work with the sanctions.

00:14:22.600 But basically, let's pretend we have 20, let's use the number 20 of remnants of Hamas, whether it be Hamas's police, Hamas's internal security mechanism, Hamas's authoritative guys with guns, or even the Qassam guys, the Hamas, the militant wing people.

00:14:42.320 We haven't been paid.

00:14:43.780 We have no direct instructions on what to do.

00:14:47.380 We listen to Al Jazeera.

00:14:49.880 We listen to statements made on Facebook and social media and Twitter to understand what Hamas writ large is saying.

00:14:56.900 We'll get together and we have access to AKs.

00:15:00.780 We have access to rounds.

00:15:02.520 We have access to supplies that can enable us to exercise force and authority.

00:15:08.980 Some of these people will, the good ones on the police, for example, they'll take over a little area and they'll be like, we're going to make sure there's law and order.

00:15:20.860 We're going to, if we catch a thief, we'll shoot them and beat them up and deter people or whatever.

00:15:26.940 Others, they're like, screw this.

00:15:29.500 Like, let's basically be thugs and go ahead and take over trucks.

00:15:34.580 Or even better, let's now create this informal set of security companies that are, like, on the fly.

00:15:43.960 They're not, like, real companies.

00:15:45.540 But, like, let's offer our security services to humanitarian organizations, to UN organizations, to international organizations to say, okay, so you're bringing in a truck through the Karam Shalom or before it through the Rafah border crossing.

00:16:00.180 You're going to bring in 10 trucks?

00:16:02.360 We'd like to have two trucks, please.

00:16:05.180 Or you're bringing in one truck?

00:16:06.920 Like, what are you going to give me out of this truck for me to, so, and then they either, they barter things with, you know, whatever they gain from these trucks, or they'll go ahead and actually sell it and make money that way.

00:16:20.480 Then they'll, so that now there's actually this whole informal economy where any organization that wants to bring in supplies in the Gaza Strip humanitarian NGOs and nonprofits,

00:16:31.820 you pretty much have to coordinate with thugs, with clans, or with remnants of Hamas.

00:16:39.740 And I'm not, to be clear, I'm not saying, like, organizations are sitting there and talking to Hamas and saying, like, I'm just saying it's, like, a lot more loose than that.

00:16:48.860 But otherwise, your supplies are going to get looted and stolen.

00:16:52.740 So you have guys with AKs that take care of securing your supplies.

00:16:58.500 You have clans now, the powerful clans that, unfortunately, Prime Minister Netanyahu thought somehow are going to replace Hamas.

00:17:07.440 They are running the routes.

00:17:09.680 They have hundreds of their guys in full view, by the way, of Israeli intelligence and surveillance assets with guns, with the sole purpose of commandeering incoming humanitarian aid.

00:17:22.300 This is why I've been a proponent of the airdrops idea, and I've worked really hard.

00:17:26.520 It's inefficient, it's dangerous, it's got problems, but at least you're spreading the supplies as best as you can to minimize the chance of looters or Hamas.

00:17:37.200 So going back to just your question, it is convenient for some in the pro-Israel camp to say, oh, well, Hamas is just stealing everything.

00:17:47.280 Hamas has and does steal some of the aid indeed, but it is actually far more complicated than simply Hamas,

00:17:54.160 because you have a lot of organized criminals and people haven't worked for a year.

00:17:58.420 There's nothing to earn money.

00:18:00.200 So this is this is the only source of income for many people.

00:18:05.300 And it's not just the desperate.

00:18:06.840 I'm not talking about the desperate people, which form probably, according to some estimate, maybe like 15 percent of the looters.

00:18:14.600 The other, you know, 85 percent of the looters are mainly organized criminals and to a certain, perhaps lesser extent, remnants of Hamas.

00:18:25.040 The picture you're painting, Ahmed, is obviously awful.

00:18:28.700 Do Hamas still have widespread support within Gaza or have they lost the average Palestinian?

00:18:35.580 Absolutely. And this is something that is essentially my raison d'etre and putting myself out there since October 7th,

00:18:43.980 is that despite what we saw initially of the few thousand people who either went into Israel when the wall went down or celebrated it,

00:18:54.280 we're talking still about, what, 5,000, 10,000 people that may have celebrated this overtly endorsed Hamas out of a population of 2.3 million people,

00:19:06.940 half of whom weren't born when Hamas was elected in 2006.

00:19:10.940 Over time, and especially now, Hamas's support is absolutely in the toilet.

00:19:16.680 And I'll tell you why.

00:19:17.500 Imagine yourself, I mean, forget the, like, big picture conflict, forget all the, like, let's just bring it down to, like, your day-to-day life.

00:19:27.020 If you're standing in a dirty, disgusting line to use a bathroom with 500 other people,

00:19:32.580 if your kid has a cold and you can't get him a Tylenol or you can't get him a painkiller,

00:19:38.340 if you're having to pay $1,000 for a pack of cigarettes that you don't have,

00:19:42.880 if and if and if and if and if you've been displaced, you're really not going to sit there and say,

00:19:48.680 wow, October 7th was, there's a solid, like, Hamas is great, like, Senwar really had a strategy.

00:19:55.380 When you're seeing Hamas and taking care of their people, because there are Hamas members,

00:20:02.140 and we'll talk about, you know, the tiers of support for Hamas as well as the tiers of opposition for Hamas.

00:20:08.860 But Hamas does the aid that they siphon, for example.

00:20:13.060 They ensure that they get their members and their families supplies before everybody else does.

00:20:20.220 There are tents, for example, in a tent city, and people will infer who are affiliated with Hamas

00:20:27.420 by the tents that get more aid than others.

00:20:30.900 So it's a very unequal and unjust distribution system.

00:20:34.240 We've seen video after video after video after post, in Arabic mainly, of Palestinians,

00:20:43.920 of women and children and elderly people, decrying Hamas' behavior,

00:20:51.360 saying, why is Hamas hiding amongst us?

00:20:54.060 Why is Hamas keeping this war?

00:20:57.000 Turn over the hostages.

00:20:58.100 We've seen protests, we've seen small efforts of the people of Gaza crying out loud and saying,

00:21:04.820 we don't want Hamas, we don't want this war, we don't want Senwar, we don't want this.

00:21:10.020 But they're helpless to stop Hamas, because at the end of the day, they're the guys with the guns.

00:21:14.020 They're stuck, on the one hand, between a ruthless terror organization that cares nothing for their well-being.

00:21:21.760 And by the way, one of the things that really began the demise of Hamas' popularity in Gaza

00:21:29.480 is that for the first, I would say, six months of the war,

00:21:34.180 Hamas' mouthpieces and leaders would brag about how we built these tunnels to enable us to fight on forever.

00:21:42.920 However, we've amassed enough supplies to keep us going for multiple years to fight the Israelis.

00:21:50.280 Even if we lose control, administrative control,

00:21:53.540 our, you know, our preparations over the years have gotten us to a place where we can carry out an insurgency.

00:22:00.620 And they would say this as if to get people in Gaza to say, like, yeah, Hamas.

00:22:05.140 And it had the opposite effect.

00:22:07.100 People in Gaza were like, oh, yeah, so you stacked all these supplies,

00:22:10.080 and you didn't think to build one bomb shelter for us.

00:22:12.920 You didn't think to put one strategic reserve of critical materials and items and food

00:22:19.860 to prevent the famine-like conditions.

00:22:21.740 So the degradation of Hamas, the levels of support for Hamas,

00:22:27.900 has been not only steady, but it has been worsened by Hamas' own statements and behavior

00:22:35.620 to try to stop that degradation.

00:22:38.420 The other thing, there's the issue of the infamous polls,

00:22:40.960 which the IDF alleges to have found documents showing that Hamas doctored

00:22:47.900 and significantly manipulated and skewed the results of these polls to show support in Gaza.

00:22:54.900 I'm talking about Gaza.

00:22:56.020 The West Bank is a whole different other story, and we can talk about it separately and later.

00:22:59.780 I didn't need the IDF to allege to have found these documents to tell me that people in Gaza have been turning in mass

00:23:08.860 against the terror group for destroying their lives, for squandering opportunity after opportunity

00:23:14.620 to bring this war to an end, for squandering billions of dollars into this tunnel resistance enterprise.

00:23:21.720 And also, I will say, unfortunately, there are people who may have supported Hamas in the past

00:23:28.820 or soon after October 7th, but it's all coming full picture, not just because of the consequences

00:23:36.520 of Hamas' actions, not just because they lost their homes, they lost their families,

00:23:40.580 but they're seeing how Hamas behaves.

00:23:42.940 They're seeing that there's no strategy.

00:23:44.760 They're seeing that this is merely a nihilistic exercise of suicidal adventurism.

00:23:50.240 They're seeing how Hamas is basically as part of this axis of resistance

00:23:54.620 on behalf of the Islamic Republic of Iran and working with the Houthis and Hezbollah,

00:23:59.280 that we are pawns.

00:24:00.840 And this is, you know, it's coming together to where I actually think, unlike anything

00:24:07.640 I've ever seen, there is actually delegitimization of the idea of resistance.

00:24:13.940 So you have people that supported Hamas who hated Islamism.

00:24:18.840 They hated Hamas itself, but they liked the idea, broad idea of resistance.

00:24:24.000 That idea has been propagated since 1948, essentially.

00:24:28.040 And, you know, the PLO engaged in resistance.

00:24:31.160 The PFLP engaged in resistance.

00:24:33.620 The pan-Arabism of Nasser was a form of resistance to the Zionist entity.

00:24:39.440 And Hamas, then now the Islamism.

00:24:41.400 So, like, different ideologies, but essentially carrying the same narrative of resistance.

00:24:48.340 I actually think now, and this is my own personal assessment,

00:24:53.020 there's a gradual delegitimization.

00:24:55.740 In a Gaza context, again, not the West Bank.

00:24:58.860 Gaza and the West Bank are so different culturally, politically, in a variety of ways.

00:25:03.540 Like, this idea that you're going to have a centralized Palestinian government

00:25:06.620 that runs both is nonsense at this point.

00:25:09.780 I do believe Gaza and the West Bank should be a part of a unified Palestinian structure.

00:25:14.340 We'll talk about that later.

00:25:16.120 The idea of resistance itself, people are asking questions about it.

00:25:21.440 And I'm seeing people saying, so, resistance for the sake of resistance?

00:25:26.500 What does that, like, what does that get us other than death and destruction?

00:25:29.880 Or resistance for the sake of simply keeping this conflict alive,

00:25:35.360 which is what Hamas thinks is basically, now is their strategies.

00:25:39.600 Maximize Palestinian casualties to delegitimize Israel.

00:25:43.400 Keep the conflict alive as long as you can.

00:25:45.940 Because, oh, we have protesters in the West, which is ironic.

00:25:49.980 At a time when people in Gaza are turning against Hamas en masse,

00:25:54.000 you have imbeciles in Western capitals and here in New York and in B.C.

00:25:58.520 flying Hamas and Hezbollah flags, cheering on the armed resistance narrative.

00:26:03.780 Out in the open, legitimizing, celebrating, and supporting a terror organization.

00:26:11.260 And I'm not just talking about a terror organization just principally.

00:26:14.240 I'm not talking about an organization that has literally triggered

00:26:17.560 the most deadly, destructive chapter in Palestinian contemporary history.

00:26:21.620 Worse than the Nakba of 1948.

00:26:25.480 And so, the people of Gaza, unfortunately, there's a disconnect.

00:26:29.900 And that goes back to what I said earlier.

00:26:32.620 Like, my raison d'etre for putting myself out there

00:26:35.280 is to actually demonstrate the folly of the Israel and Palestine discourse

00:26:40.720 in a diaspora context versus how the people who are impacted by it the most

00:26:45.400 on the ground who are paying the ultimate price.

00:26:49.680 There's a complete disconnect and breakdown.

00:26:52.100 All of this is also not to excuse or to say the people in Gaza aren't furious at Israel

00:26:58.960 and aren't furious at the conduct of the war.

00:27:02.980 And they're not exactly thinking of Israel as a liberator.

00:27:06.420 Even though I will tell you, and I will put the entirety of my reputation on the line here,

00:27:11.960 and I will say confidently, there were numerous people in Gaza early on,

00:27:16.660 in the very early stages of the war, who were privately like,

00:27:21.380 maybe Israel will do us a favor and kind of get rid of Hamas.

00:27:25.440 And that very quickly, unfortunately, when the scale of the death and destruction

00:27:29.900 and this, like, clear and leave strategy, and then Hamas would respawn or come back,

00:27:37.480 and then Israel would come back in, and then Hamas would leave.

00:27:40.660 Like, when it became this vicious cycle of death and destruction, people were like,

00:27:46.260 we thought Israel, like, actually had a strategy.

00:27:48.900 And it seems like they're the, the Israeli strategy, in a sense, is the other equivalent.

00:27:55.800 Hamas wants to prolong this war for as long as possible to keep the protests going

00:27:59.960 and delegitimize Israel and turn this, like, the whole region on fire.

00:28:04.260 They feel that Israel now is, the Israeli government in particular,

00:28:09.220 and the government of Prime Minister Netanyahu are prolonging the war

00:28:12.740 so that he can have his coalition of far-right extremists sticking around until the next election

00:28:19.680 so that he can stay out of jail.

00:28:21.700 Like, so they genuinely feel stuck between those two powers.

00:28:26.080 But what gives me hope is that they, I don't think,

00:28:30.040 the reason why I think this is going to be Gaza's last war is that I don't think Hamas will ever again

00:28:36.880 be able to manipulate people in Gaza into accepting a scenario in which Hamas runs them,

00:28:43.640 in which Hamas basically oppresses the Palestinian people there in the name of resistance to Israel.

00:28:49.120 I think there is a fundamental once-in-a-generation shift as a result of not just the consequences of October 7th,

00:28:58.240 that's a really important distinction, because a lot of the pro-Israel people, they're like,

00:29:02.720 well, the people that are turning on Hamas, they're only doing so because now there's a deadly, you know, war,

00:29:08.860 and only because of the consequences.

00:29:11.380 It's not just that.

00:29:12.760 It's how Hamas has behaved on the ground, in the field, how the leadership has behaved,

00:29:18.380 the hotel leadership, how Hamas is so clearly uninterested in the suffering of the Palestinian people.

00:29:24.920 Khaled Mishal, the group's leader in Qatar, a senior group leader.

00:29:31.540 There have been memes about him over the last three weeks because he gave, on the October 7th anniversary,

00:29:38.680 he said that, he infamously said,

00:29:41.600 our losses are tactical, Israel's losses are strategic.

00:29:46.160 And that literally inflamed the Palestinian people in Gaza, the diaspora.

00:29:53.420 How dare you call my niece and nephew and uncle and tactical losses?

00:29:59.660 How dare you say that the annihilation of Gaza is always just a tactical thing and it's no big deal.

00:30:06.320 But Israel, which has the Iron Dome, which has billions more in dollars in funding,

00:30:11.940 which still has the economy is still functioning, is fighting a multi-front war.

00:30:17.820 It seems to me that Israel is kind of doing just fine in the sense that like their society

00:30:23.400 has not had the death and destruction that we've had.

00:30:26.360 So that, I think, just the totality of those threads that I just shared, and much more,

00:30:33.260 confirmed to me that the people in Gaza, en masse, have turned against Hamas.

00:30:37.740 It doesn't mean they're loving Israel and saying we love Israel,

00:30:41.640 but this is an opportunity to shape the next generation of Palestinian governors in Gaza.

00:30:47.980 Well, I'm very glad that you say that, Akramanda.

00:30:50.060 We have a lot of pro-Israeli guests on, and they say that Israel's war against Hamas has been proportionate.

00:30:58.760 The IDF have done everything that they possibly can to limit civilian casualties.

00:31:03.960 Where do you stand on that?

00:31:05.980 So, on the one hand, I mean, multiple things are true at once.

00:31:11.580 Do I think there's a breakdown between what orders are given up top versus how field commanders exercise them?

00:31:21.240 A hundred percent.

00:31:22.100 The Israelis themselves have said that.

00:31:24.180 And there have been Times of Israel pieces, Yad'ot Ahranot,

00:31:27.660 and all these other mainline headlines that say how field commanders are sloppy,

00:31:33.240 they're lax, they're indifferent, they're exhausted,

00:31:36.160 and they just give their sergeants and their officers permission to get sloppy in how they apply firepower.

00:31:45.320 Obviously, a lot of Israeli soldiers are afraid and scared,

00:31:48.120 and I think they're going to lean more towards being overly cautious

00:31:51.520 by applying excessive suppressive fire to a certain area.

00:31:56.760 There's two types of targeting that result in the casualties.

00:32:02.400 So, there's, like, the airstrikes or the artillery strikes,

00:32:05.720 and that's where you do have this, like, cycle of intel, target selection, target approval,

00:32:14.180 selection of the munitions and the firepower, and then the actual execution of the strike.

00:32:19.980 And then there is the targeting that happens in the field, the tactical,

00:32:24.700 that, like, we have a squad, and we're going through from house to house

00:32:28.940 with tanks here and with the drones overhead and whatever,

00:32:33.180 and then we get a couple of bullets fired our way.

00:32:37.520 There's an entirely different structure to how you respond to this incoming fire,

00:32:43.020 and it's not the cycle that is precise and uses intelligence and uses mitigation strategies.

00:32:49.720 It's like, we have fire from here, like, let's,

00:32:53.500 the tank starts firing and the quadcopters start firing,

00:32:56.220 and the soldiers start spraying, and sometimes that happens when civilians are in the area.

00:33:01.500 Sometimes you apply a ring of fire beyond just the immediate area where you're in.

00:33:06.120 So, I think there have been absolutely careless cases on mass scale.

00:33:13.760 I mean...

00:33:14.220 But that thing you're talking about, I'm sorry to interrupt,

00:33:16.480 but that thing you're talking about is true of all war and always has been, right?

00:33:20.360 If you're walking through a neighborhood and people start shooting at you,

00:33:23.260 you're going to do everything you possibly can to neutralize that threat,

00:33:28.280 and if civilians are there, they shouldn't have been there in the first place,

00:33:32.520 as you mentioned, right?

00:33:33.940 But if they're there, they're going to be collateral damage in that situation.

00:33:37.080 That was true of World War II.

00:33:39.020 It's true of the war in Iraq.

00:33:40.280 It's true of the one...

00:33:40.820 It's true of every war in human history, really.

00:33:42.940 But then why go out of your way to say that the IDF

00:33:47.360 and have people like John Spencer acting as effective mouthpieces for the IDF

00:33:53.020 and say that there's never been a war this clean and this moral and this amazing,

00:33:58.540 like, then say that and accept that as an inevitability.

00:34:02.640 But those two things aren't in contradiction, surely.

00:34:05.260 You could say that this is...

00:34:07.880 And I don't know.

00:34:08.820 I've heard a lot of people make that argument that you're making

00:34:11.380 or that you're claiming other people make.

00:34:13.920 But something could be the most humane way to wage a war

00:34:18.580 in which civilians still inevitably and tragically get killed.

00:34:21.800 Those two things could happen at once, right?

00:34:24.100 They could, potentially.

00:34:25.640 But when we see time after time after time,

00:34:28.640 civilians and children in Times of Israel

00:34:31.040 and the Washington Post just corroborated this video from Jabalya

00:34:35.480 in which a 13-year-old child was hit and they got their name.

00:34:38.800 Israeli press, a quadcopter, hit this child.

00:34:42.480 He's killed.

00:34:43.160 People come to try to rescue him.

00:34:45.260 They're bombed and attacked.

00:34:46.840 I saw that.

00:34:48.000 But what I'm saying is something different.

00:34:49.820 This is not to negate the significance of that

00:34:52.400 or the tragedy of civilians being killed.

00:34:54.480 I'm just saying it's an empirical question, right?

00:34:57.860 I believe, by the way...

00:34:59.520 So I guess what I'm...

00:35:01.340 I don't know much about it.

00:35:03.020 That's why you're here, because you know and I don't.

00:35:05.340 But if you're uncomfortable with the framing of this being a war

00:35:10.380 that is fought as cleanly as possible,

00:35:12.400 I guess the question is what conflict in recent history

00:35:15.820 would you put forward as a more humane one?

00:35:19.260 Certainly.

00:35:19.840 But I think there's...

00:35:22.000 First of all, those civilians that are there.

00:35:24.040 Sometimes civilians are there because they have no choice.

00:35:27.500 Sometimes Hamas has gotten in the way

00:35:29.900 and they basically want civilians to stick around

00:35:32.900 so that to cause casualty.

00:35:34.940 I have sent proposal after proposal

00:35:38.560 to several Israeli officials

00:35:40.000 for what do we do now that Egypt closed its border

00:35:43.980 and Egypt is never going to open its border

00:35:45.960 to allowing civilians to be in Sinai.

00:35:48.560 We have these safe zones that also get struck and get attacked.

00:35:52.320 We have the lack of security,

00:35:53.840 the lack of places for the civilians to go.

00:35:57.440 I've called for...

00:35:59.300 And some Israelis supported me in this

00:36:01.140 for camps for women and children

00:36:03.420 on the Israeli side of the border of Gaza

00:36:05.560 temporarily until the war is over.

00:36:08.860 Unfortunately, you can't...

00:36:11.240 I don't believe that the official Israeli policy

00:36:15.280 is to cause maximum civilian casualties.

00:36:18.120 I personally don't believe that.

00:36:19.360 However, there are numerous Israeli commanders

00:36:23.400 and individual soldiers

00:36:25.160 who are vengeful,

00:36:27.880 who are traumatized by what happened on October 7th,

00:36:31.120 and who, quite honestly, like, that's what I mean.

00:36:33.780 Like, they will take potshots at Palestinian kids.

00:36:36.720 We saw that story in the New York Times

00:36:38.900 and I shared the x-rays

00:36:40.800 and people were losing their minds.

00:36:42.420 That has been debunked, you know,

00:36:43.820 by firearms experts.

00:36:45.440 And the New York Times stood by those x-rays

00:36:49.300 and I've seen...

00:36:50.900 I don't...

00:36:51.380 Again, even if this particular x-ray,

00:36:54.700 which was, by the way, a 2D x-ray,

00:36:56.780 like, there's...

00:36:57.780 If this particular x-ray doesn't stand,

00:37:00.740 I still know personally of people

00:37:03.600 in the medical field who saw firsthand.

00:37:05.980 Well, no one would deny

00:37:06.980 that innocent civilians have been shot,

00:37:09.300 but that particular story

00:37:10.800 has been pretty thoroughly debunked

00:37:12.580 by people who say that's not what a gunshot looks like

00:37:16.200 and that's not what a bullet looks like

00:37:17.440 after it's entered the human head.

00:37:19.000 I don't want to focus on these details.

00:37:20.440 I guess I'm...

00:37:21.080 And I'm not even challenging what you're saying

00:37:23.720 because I'm not knowledgeable enough to challenge it.

00:37:26.060 I'm just asking the question.

00:37:28.280 Your point seems to be

00:37:29.560 that there are civilian casualties,

00:37:31.180 which no one denies.

00:37:32.520 And I think it's tragic that there are.

00:37:36.120 But if you're disputing the claim

00:37:38.700 that some people make,

00:37:39.480 which is what Francis asked you about originally,

00:37:41.020 that's why...

00:37:41.440 That's all I'm trying to get to.

00:37:42.820 If you're disputing the idea

00:37:44.460 that Israel is prosecuting this war

00:37:46.420 more humanely than other conflicts,

00:37:49.920 I guess it's then on you to say,

00:37:51.740 well, you know, the war in Vietnam

00:37:53.260 or the war in Afghanistan

00:37:54.360 or the war in there

00:37:55.300 or the war in here

00:37:56.000 has been prosecuted more humanely.

00:37:58.480 But is that so?

00:37:59.600 Yes.

00:37:59.780 Like, is that...

00:38:00.520 I don't...

00:38:02.520 Because everything is a matter of comparison, right?

00:38:04.960 Like, we can only be the most humane.

00:38:07.960 We can't have a war

00:38:08.840 in which no civilians get killed

00:38:10.240 because the practical reality

00:38:12.160 of fighting urban warfare

00:38:14.220 is, particularly as you say yourself,

00:38:16.540 when Hamas wants to maximize

00:38:17.920 civilian casualties,

00:38:19.320 is very tragically,

00:38:20.800 people are going to be killed.

00:38:22.340 So then we have to compare, right?

00:38:25.120 What I'm mainly pushing for,

00:38:26.980 and I...

00:38:27.220 is I want those Israeli claims

00:38:30.360 that we're doing everything we can

00:38:33.560 to minimize civilian casualties,

00:38:35.040 to be backed up by actual realities

00:38:37.760 on the ground and actual actions.

00:38:39.580 When you're targeting a 13-year-old boy

00:38:42.540 and people come in to save him

00:38:45.340 and you target those people,

00:38:46.560 and we've seen that time and again,

00:38:48.720 the child hen that was killed

00:38:51.540 and the ambulances,

00:38:52.400 we've seen hundreds of examples

00:38:54.580 that are well-documented

00:38:55.720 that show otherwise.

00:38:57.080 So that's what I'm asking for.

00:38:58.880 It's good.

00:38:59.580 Israel, like, let's match your...

00:39:01.000 Well, hold on.

00:39:01.400 I'm not disagreeing with that.

00:39:02.980 I mean, look, genuinely,

00:39:04.180 you mentioned before you came on the show

00:39:05.980 that you love our show

00:39:07.680 because of the intellectual curiosity,

00:39:09.300 and that's all I'm doing here, genuinely.

00:39:11.380 I'm just...

00:39:11.540 For sure, for sure.

00:39:12.340 And I don't have that answer

00:39:13.740 on what war is fought cleanly.

00:39:15.680 I don't have that answer.

00:39:16.540 Well, right.

00:39:17.360 And that's kind of the issue here

00:39:18.860 because what...

00:39:21.060 Forgive me for laying it out like this,

00:39:22.460 but what often happens

00:39:23.660 when you pose that question to people

00:39:25.520 is they go to the example,

00:39:30.200 the single example,

00:39:31.260 and they say,

00:39:31.640 well, did you see that video?

00:39:32.860 Yes, I did see that video.

00:39:34.420 I also have never seen a war

00:39:35.920 in which that sort of thing hasn't happened.

00:39:38.000 It's happening right now

00:39:39.240 to my family in Ukraine,

00:39:40.740 and it's just as tragic

00:39:42.080 as when it happens to your family in Gaza.

00:39:44.520 These are the same terrible things.

00:39:47.780 But that's what war is.

00:39:49.720 That's why war is terrible, right?

00:39:51.340 So when Francis asked you

00:39:54.320 about the fact

00:39:55.780 that some pro-Israel guests

00:39:57.520 have claimed on our show

00:39:59.140 that Israel is doing everything it can,

00:40:02.820 that's not the same as them saying

00:40:04.540 Israel is behaving impeccably.

00:40:07.300 It's saying that within the context

00:40:09.920 of violent military conflict

00:40:11.760 in which complex explosive weapons

00:40:14.580 and all sorts of other firearms

00:40:15.840 and weapons are used,

00:40:18.080 they are doing the most

00:40:20.020 of any army in history

00:40:21.580 to limit civilian casualties.

00:40:23.680 And that could be true

00:40:24.860 at the same time

00:40:26.520 as innocent children

00:40:27.720 being blown up by bombs.

00:40:29.140 Those two things

00:40:29.820 are not incompatible tragically.

00:40:31.680 Do you hear what I'm saying?

00:40:32.480 Certainly, certainly.

00:40:33.480 But I've,

00:40:34.880 basically,

00:40:35.340 I've already agreed with you

00:40:36.720 by saying that

00:40:37.600 I don't believe

00:40:38.520 it is official Israeli policy

00:40:40.400 to deliberately cause

00:40:42.360 maximum civilian casualties.

00:40:43.640 But at the end of the day,

00:40:45.640 I have 31 dead family members

00:40:48.140 from three separate airstrikes

00:40:49.580 and I have no idea

00:40:51.080 why they're dead.

00:40:52.180 I have no idea.

00:40:53.700 Like,

00:40:53.980 and I can't sit here

00:40:55.340 and this is maybe

00:40:56.520 where I do lose my objectivity

00:40:58.560 and I'm fine with that.

00:41:00.100 Yeah.

00:41:00.940 If you,

00:41:01.460 if,

00:41:02.100 I mean,

00:41:02.580 the New York Times

00:41:03.460 when the really deadly airstrike

00:41:05.540 that killed 29 people

00:41:06.760 happened on December 14th

00:41:08.220 in Rafah,

00:41:08.920 when it was a safe zone

00:41:10.280 and Amnesty International

00:41:11.720 did a whole report on it

00:41:14.040 and the New York Times

00:41:15.000 did a whole report

00:41:16.000 on what happened to my family.

00:41:17.460 They reached out to the IDF

00:41:18.660 and they said,

00:41:20.060 why are there 14 children dead?

00:41:24.160 Children,

00:41:24.700 three and four months old,

00:41:25.880 babies shredded to bits and pieces.

00:41:27.700 Like,

00:41:28.020 at least the IDF can tell us

00:41:30.100 what did you target in there?

00:41:31.960 What was in that strike

00:41:33.280 that you felt

00:41:34.380 outweighs

00:41:36.220 the death

00:41:37.440 of all of these civilians?

00:41:39.180 And I know them

00:41:40.000 all by name

00:41:41.120 and from my aunts

00:41:42.700 and uncles,

00:41:43.320 all of my aunts

00:41:44.280 and uncles

00:41:44.640 on my mom's side

00:41:45.520 perished in that strike

00:41:46.880 that were in the house.

00:41:49.000 The least the IDF could do

00:41:51.260 is be like,

00:41:52.640 well,

00:41:53.020 there was a particular target

00:41:54.720 because it was

00:41:55.320 a designated safe zone

00:41:56.400 and people in northern Gaza,

00:41:58.680 family members

00:41:59.180 from the north,

00:42:00.000 they fled from the north.

00:42:01.180 They hated the IDF warnings

00:42:02.560 and they headed south

00:42:03.980 to a safe zone

00:42:04.780 only to be killed

00:42:05.780 in the safe zone.

00:42:07.020 So,

00:42:07.960 that is a lot more nefarious

00:42:09.640 than just all bad.

00:42:11.480 Like,

00:42:11.820 that is deliberate.

00:42:12.840 That was a deliberate airstrike

00:42:14.440 and I think

00:42:15.240 the only way

00:42:16.220 in which you can make it

00:42:17.460 fit in this broader context

00:42:19.720 of

00:42:20.080 we're minimizing

00:42:21.200 civilian casualties

00:42:22.180 but it's deadly

00:42:23.040 is

00:42:23.440 show me,

00:42:24.420 show me that,

00:42:25.140 like,

00:42:25.420 what did you,

00:42:25.860 what did you kill?

00:42:26.640 Like,

00:42:26.960 who was the,

00:42:28.580 who was important enough

00:42:30.440 for you to kill

00:42:31.200 14 children

00:42:32.160 and all these family members,

00:42:34.680 the elderly people?

00:42:35.600 It's like,

00:42:36.580 but that's,

00:42:37.580 you take that

00:42:38.260 and you multiply it

00:42:39.140 by hundreds

00:42:39.760 if not thousands

00:42:40.480 of cases.

00:42:41.420 So,

00:42:41.560 that's where

00:42:42.180 I can,

00:42:43.820 I don't even think

00:42:44.560 we're disagreeing.

00:42:45.400 I think we agree actually.

00:42:46.800 I just think,

00:42:47.780 understandably,

00:42:48.580 you feel very strongly

00:42:49.340 about those things

00:42:49.960 as I do too.

00:42:51.700 So,

00:42:52.460 with a little bit

00:42:53.040 more distance,

00:42:54.000 I can sort of go,

00:42:55.740 that's awful

00:42:56.500 and terrible

00:42:57.620 and yet,

00:42:59.040 when you have war,

00:43:00.640 that is what happened.

00:43:01.480 I mean,

00:43:01.780 look at what happened

00:43:02.480 in Mosul,

00:43:03.440 in Iraq,

00:43:04.060 look at how

00:43:04.540 these Egyptian military

00:43:05.900 fought in northern Sinai.

00:43:08.060 I mean,

00:43:08.220 they wiped out

00:43:08.900 Egyptian Rafah.

00:43:09.920 They moved,

00:43:10.680 literally the whole town

00:43:11.540 of Egyptian Rafah

00:43:12.360 was eliminated.

00:43:13.720 And,

00:43:13.960 so can I tell you

00:43:15.460 a little something?

00:43:16.060 Yes,

00:43:16.240 for sure.

00:43:16.800 I was talking to

00:43:18.140 a pro-Palestine individual

00:43:19.980 yesterday

00:43:20.500 who's very prominent

00:43:22.220 in the Arab

00:43:23.820 and Muslim community

00:43:24.720 to try to build bridges

00:43:26.780 and build partnerships.

00:43:28.560 And,

00:43:29.040 they subjected me

00:43:30.300 to a seat,

00:43:30.900 just to even

00:43:31.660 have the conversation,

00:43:32.980 they subjected me

00:43:34.040 to a series

00:43:34.600 of litmus tests.

00:43:36.420 And,

00:43:36.880 it was really bizarre.

00:43:38.120 And,

00:43:38.240 I was like,

00:43:38.480 okay,

00:43:38.700 fine,

00:43:38.940 I'll play along.

00:43:39.660 The first one was like,

00:43:40.760 do you believe

00:43:41.360 that what Israel's doing

00:43:42.360 in Gaza is genocide?

00:43:44.500 And,

00:43:44.860 I said,

00:43:45.480 no,

00:43:45.760 I do not believe

00:43:46.440 it is genocide.

00:43:47.280 I think there are

00:43:48.200 numerous war crimes

00:43:49.720 that have been committed.

00:43:51.520 I think there have been

00:43:52.460 horrendous events

00:43:53.820 that Israeli leaders

00:43:55.020 should be held

00:43:55.680 accountable for.

00:43:56.460 But,

00:43:56.780 I do not believe

00:43:57.720 that Israel's

00:43:58.720 official policy

00:44:00.360 in Gaza

00:44:01.000 is genocide.

00:44:02.640 I think there are

00:44:03.620 genocidal members

00:44:04.980 of the Israeli government.

00:44:06.320 Absolutely.

00:44:07.080 But,

00:44:07.340 they don't have the power,

00:44:08.800 nor are they

00:44:09.620 directly,

00:44:11.120 at least,

00:44:12.180 and explicitly,

00:44:13.500 and from a legal

00:44:14.440 point of view,

00:44:16.160 setting the policy

00:44:17.180 of genocide

00:44:17.700 in Israel.

00:44:18.880 In Gaza,

00:44:19.740 rather.

00:44:20.220 A policy of genocide.

00:44:22.540 So,

00:44:22.960 multiple,

00:44:23.860 so they,

00:44:24.460 and they were just

00:44:25.360 shell-shocked.

00:44:26.060 They just looked at me,

00:44:26.920 they were like,

00:44:27.240 wait,

00:44:27.980 but you lost,

00:44:28.840 like,

00:44:29.020 Israel killed

00:44:29.660 all of these

00:44:30.240 family members,

00:44:30.880 and you've written

00:44:31.520 passionately about this,

00:44:32.940 and you've spoken so,

00:44:34.360 and I said,

00:44:34.920 it is precisely

00:44:35.860 that point.

00:44:36.580 I think the whole

00:44:37.420 genocide this,

00:44:38.700 or genocide that,

00:44:39.340 has become a distraction,

00:44:41.080 and it's become

00:44:41.900 this obsession with,

00:44:43.660 like,

00:44:43.900 when I learned English,

00:44:44.860 and I was in Gaza,

00:44:45.920 I had a great

00:44:47.600 British teacher

00:44:48.280 who said to me,

00:44:50.040 show,

00:44:50.700 don't tell.

00:44:52.220 Like,

00:44:52.460 show the facts,

00:44:53.380 describe them,

00:44:54.600 kind of paint the picture,

00:44:55.880 and then let people,

00:44:57.440 kind of,

00:44:57.940 don't prescriptively say,

00:45:00.500 I think it's genocide,

00:45:01.780 I think it's this,

00:45:02.520 I think it's that.

00:45:03.160 For me,

00:45:03.840 it's like,

00:45:04.320 no,

00:45:04.620 there's the suffering,

00:45:05.960 here's the facts,

00:45:07.160 here's how Hamas fights,

00:45:08.380 here's what the Israelis do,

00:45:09.840 here's the horror

00:45:10.760 that happened to my family members.

00:45:12.400 It's like,

00:45:13.380 it's really difficult

00:45:14.400 to exercise

00:45:15.160 when people are so emotional

00:45:16.860 about this issue,

00:45:17.660 but what I'm trying to model

00:45:18.980 is,

00:45:19.680 I have the most skin

00:45:20.720 in the game in this,

00:45:21.640 and that literally

00:45:22.320 half of my fucking family

00:45:23.400 is dead,

00:45:24.160 and yet,

00:45:24.680 I am saying,

00:45:26.300 this shuts down doors

00:45:28.360 that don't need to be shut,

00:45:30.080 this raises the temperature,

00:45:32.600 this becomes a distraction

00:45:34.420 into,

00:45:35.160 like,

00:45:35.260 a separate,

00:45:35.840 if somebody wants to adjudicate

00:45:37.500 genocide or not,

00:45:38.560 like,

00:45:38.760 that's fine,

00:45:39.680 that's separately,

00:45:40.700 but,

00:45:40.980 like,

00:45:41.160 let's not have the conversation

00:45:42.720 dictated by the need

00:45:44.000 to say that Israel

00:45:45.460 is intentionally killing

00:45:46.880 every single child

00:45:48.000 in Gaza,

00:45:49.240 when I don't believe

00:45:50.120 that that is the policy,

00:45:52.020 even though they have killed

00:45:53.560 a lot of children

00:45:54.340 in Gaza.

00:45:55.160 Look,

00:45:55.720 I'm completely in agreement

00:45:56.940 with you,

00:45:57.560 and as somebody

00:45:59.000 who has family in Lebanon,

00:46:00.880 I get very angry

00:46:02.420 and very frustrated

00:46:03.680 with the way

00:46:04.780 I see certain activists

00:46:06.360 on the left

00:46:07.180 who,

00:46:08.000 like you said,

00:46:08.560 don't really have skin

00:46:09.520 in the game

00:46:10.140 talking about this war.

00:46:14.000 What do you think

00:46:14.840 about those types,

00:46:16.300 those commentators,

00:46:18.720 the Ta-Nehisi Coates,

00:46:19.760 the Batamusifs,

00:46:21.200 et cetera?

00:46:22.740 And,

00:46:23.260 you know,

00:46:24.620 basically,

00:46:25.340 this is my second

00:46:26.500 raison d'etre

00:46:27.880 for why I've put myself

00:46:29.420 out there

00:46:29.860 since October 7,

00:46:31.140 is that I'm tired

00:46:32.220 of other people

00:46:33.000 telling our story.

00:46:34.040 I'm tired of our allies.

00:46:35.920 Like,

00:46:36.300 I think,

00:46:36.860 unfortunately,

00:46:37.900 I liken it to

00:46:39.480 if you're really drunk

00:46:41.140 and you're about

00:46:42.260 to get in your car,

00:46:43.260 a good friend

00:46:44.180 and an ally

00:46:44.840 would take your keys away.

00:46:46.080 I liken what

00:46:47.920 a lot of the folks

00:46:49.880 on the left

00:46:51.000 and within the

00:46:52.160 pro-Palestine community

00:46:53.500 are doing

00:46:54.060 is they're pouring

00:46:54.900 more alcohol

00:46:55.620 as you're about

00:46:56.320 to turn on your car.

00:46:58.560 Instead of helping

00:46:59.800 the Palestinian people

00:47:00.940 understand

00:47:01.540 the folly

00:47:03.180 of supporting Hamas

00:47:04.260 and the armed resistance,

00:47:05.700 explain to them

00:47:06.600 how in the broader context

00:47:08.440 this is not serving us,

00:47:10.420 this is deadly,

00:47:11.320 this is harmful,

00:47:12.760 show us,

00:47:13.560 help us understand,

00:47:14.740 do an assessment.

00:47:15.420 We've been victims

00:47:17.660 in the sense

00:47:18.420 that we've not

00:47:19.500 had a chance

00:47:20.620 to look back

00:47:21.400 at our history

00:47:22.000 and learn from our mistakes.

00:47:24.120 When people are living

00:47:25.280 in Gaza

00:47:25.820 or in the West Bank

00:47:26.720 under the realities

00:47:27.820 of either the war

00:47:29.060 or life under Hamas

00:47:30.060 or under the realities

00:47:31.740 of the military occupation

00:47:33.040 and the settlements

00:47:33.720 and the settler violence

00:47:34.840 in the West Bank,

00:47:35.880 they can't,

00:47:37.100 maybe,

00:47:37.620 they're too viscerally

00:47:38.740 connected to this issue

00:47:40.000 and they can't

00:47:41.700 think clearly

00:47:42.360 about Hamas

00:47:43.100 or next steps

00:47:43.740 or this or that.

00:47:44.380 that's where

00:47:45.660 the role

00:47:46.280 of the elites

00:47:48.380 or the diaspora community

00:47:49.760 or the political class

00:47:51.040 or the allies

00:47:53.140 like those

00:47:54.600 on the left

00:47:55.240 comes in

00:47:55.980 to help us

00:47:56.900 understand,

00:47:57.800 empower our people

00:47:58.920 with information

00:48:00.080 to save

00:48:00.680 and protect lives

00:48:01.500 with ideas

00:48:03.500 and recommendations

00:48:04.560 and partnerships

00:48:05.400 and joint action

00:48:06.500 to get things done

00:48:07.960 to achieve

00:48:08.480 Palestinian statehood.

00:48:09.480 and instead

00:48:10.780 what we have

00:48:11.880 is basically saying

00:48:13.200 yes,

00:48:13.660 the Palestinians

00:48:14.180 are perpetual victims,

00:48:15.780 they have no agency,

00:48:17.520 the October 7th

00:48:18.580 weather and inevitability,

00:48:19.860 it's a form

00:48:20.380 of resistance,

00:48:21.380 the complete opposite

00:48:23.100 which is undermining

00:48:24.640 the Palestinian people,

00:48:25.800 normalizing a terror

00:48:26.960 organization like Hamas

00:48:28.400 that is so inherently

00:48:30.420 anti-Palestinian

00:48:31.600 by virtue of,

00:48:32.760 like what has Hamas done?

00:48:34.660 They've Islamized

00:48:35.580 the society,

00:48:36.540 they sabotaged

00:48:37.340 the fragile

00:48:38.360 yet viable

00:48:39.440 Oslo peace process

00:48:40.720 that could have led

00:48:42.220 to a Palestinian state

00:48:43.760 but Rabin and Barak

00:48:45.960 could have absolutely

00:48:47.440 allowed for the establishment

00:48:49.240 of a Palestinian state

00:48:50.540 through a meaningful compromise.

00:48:52.120 They militarized

00:48:53.240 the Second Intifada

00:48:54.400 with all of their

00:48:55.140 crazy suicide bombings

00:48:56.360 that killed hundreds

00:48:57.180 of Israeli civilians.

00:48:59.020 They squandered

00:48:59.780 an opportunity

00:49:00.460 to turn the 2005 withdrawal.

00:49:02.680 We can talk about

00:49:04.340 the intentions

00:49:04.860 of Ariel Sharon,

00:49:06.100 how imperfect it was,

00:49:07.560 the real intentions behind it.

00:49:09.240 Nevertheless,

00:49:09.920 it was an opportunity

00:49:10.980 to demonstrate

00:49:12.160 what effective

00:49:12.880 Palestinian self-governance

00:49:14.260 looks like.

00:49:15.120 It was an opportunity

00:49:15.900 to show what

00:49:16.780 an occupation-free

00:49:18.120 West Bank

00:49:18.700 would look like

00:49:19.360 and that we

00:49:20.680 as a Palestinian people

00:49:21.920 and nation

00:49:22.420 are just as capable

00:49:23.780 of self-governance,

00:49:25.320 of building institutions,

00:49:26.640 of nation building.

00:49:27.760 They abused

00:49:28.720 the 2006 electoral process

00:49:30.920 that could have been

00:49:33.840 the beginning

00:49:34.680 of Palestinian political life

00:49:36.920 through elections,

00:49:37.860 through democratic governance,

00:49:38.960 and basically entered

00:49:40.720 a political process

00:49:41.780 that was based upon

00:49:43.580 nonviolence.

00:49:44.360 It was that political process

00:49:45.780 was based upon

00:49:46.980 renunciation of violence

00:49:48.880 and accepting

00:49:50.020 that Israel's existence

00:49:52.200 and right to exist.

00:49:53.560 And they sabotaged that.

00:49:54.920 And in so doing,

00:49:56.620 they've killed

00:49:57.380 Palestinian political life.

00:49:58.800 They took over

00:49:59.880 the Gaza Strip

00:50:01.240 violently in 2007

00:50:03.240 and began

00:50:04.660 a vicious cycle

00:50:06.480 of wars,

00:50:07.320 reconstruction,

00:50:08.160 squandering resources,

00:50:09.140 and wasted

00:50:10.300 basically two decades

00:50:11.540 of the Palestinian people's

00:50:13.000 time in the Gaza Strip.

00:50:15.480 They most nefariously

00:50:17.400 served the aims

00:50:18.460 of Prime Minister Netanyahu

00:50:20.040 and the Messianic

00:50:21.640 right wing in Israel

00:50:22.540 who used Hamas

00:50:24.580 and allowed Hamas's

00:50:26.100 political rise

00:50:26.940 to fester

00:50:27.560 because they could

00:50:29.140 weaken the Palestinian authority.

00:50:30.960 They could expand settlements

00:50:31.960 in the West Bank.

00:50:33.320 So you look at

00:50:34.000 the totality of that.

00:50:36.340 How could you

00:50:37.240 as a leftist

00:50:38.020 who's pro-LGBT,

00:50:39.700 who's pro-women's rights,

00:50:40.960 who's pro-immigration,

00:50:42.240 who's pro-all of these

00:50:43.560 supposed progressive policies

00:50:45.220 not see Hamas

00:50:47.140 as the enemy

00:50:48.080 of the Palestinian people,

00:50:49.420 not see Hamas

00:50:50.360 as a nefarious,

00:50:52.000 narrow-minded,

00:50:52.940 Islamist organization

00:50:54.160 that in 2020

00:50:55.100 started saying

00:50:56.640 women can't leave Gaza

00:50:57.940 without their male guardians

00:50:59.280 to sign off.

00:51:00.360 Before that,

00:51:01.280 they started saying,

00:51:02.560 oh, well,

00:51:02.920 women can't have shisha

00:51:04.380 or hookah

00:51:05.020 on the beach

00:51:06.240 because that's not,

00:51:08.620 you know,

00:51:08.920 who would use,

00:51:11.220 they had their version

00:51:12.060 of morality police

00:51:13.100 that would go to coffee shops

00:51:14.460 in Gaza

00:51:15.020 and if women,

00:51:16.480 like young couples

00:51:18.480 or people were together,

00:51:19.940 they would go and ask them,

00:51:21.140 are you married?

00:51:21.860 Are you engaged?

00:51:22.980 Are you this and that?

00:51:24.940 Hamas is such a deadly menace

00:51:27.140 to the Palestinian people

00:51:28.280 that it turned me off.

00:51:30.820 It upset me to no end

00:51:32.380 that after October 7,

00:51:34.620 there was celebration

00:51:35.360 of the taking of women

00:51:36.620 and children as hostages.

00:51:38.480 There was,

00:51:39.100 we saw the upside down triangles

00:51:41.100 and the paragliders

00:51:42.300 and all that symbolism.

00:51:43.620 Look, I agree with all of you on this.

00:51:45.020 We're also missing

00:51:45.900 a major part

00:51:47.060 of this entire situation

00:51:49.560 in that,

00:51:50.880 and let's be brutally honest

00:51:52.180 about this.

00:51:52.960 My family in Lebanon,

00:51:54.340 your family in Palestine,

00:51:56.320 they are pawns

00:51:57.520 for what Iran wants.

00:52:00.500 This is all Iran.

00:52:01.740 These are proxy wars

00:52:03.460 that are being funded by Iran

00:52:05.320 and not enough people

00:52:06.840 are saying this.

00:52:07.880 So I guess my question

00:52:08.740 to you, Ahmed,

00:52:09.560 is what do we do about this?

00:52:11.440 Because until we sort

00:52:12.420 this problem out of Iran,

00:52:14.060 until this will continue

00:52:15.600 to happen

00:52:16.140 because they're the ones

00:52:17.420 funding it,

00:52:18.240 they're the ones

00:52:18.920 manipulating it,

00:52:19.860 and they're the ones

00:52:20.940 who are putting

00:52:21.980 all our families in danger.

00:52:24.000 Well, I certainly agree.

00:52:25.020 Like, and we delegitimize,

00:52:26.960 we have to win the narrative.

00:52:29.540 We have to change the narrative.

00:52:30.900 We have to engage.

00:52:31.880 There's an element of this,

00:52:33.100 you know,

00:52:33.300 the three modalities

00:52:34.300 that I usually oscillate

00:52:35.700 in between

00:52:36.300 is engage,

00:52:38.860 convince,

00:52:39.600 or confront.

00:52:40.620 And I do a lot of confronting

00:52:42.160 because unfortunately,

00:52:43.780 this resistance narrative,

00:52:45.240 and this is what terrifies me,

00:52:46.720 genuinely.

00:52:47.140 Before October 7,

00:52:49.720 it was the norm

00:52:50.600 for people to be like,

00:52:51.540 well,

00:52:52.260 I don't like Hamas,

00:52:53.980 but the occupation.

00:52:55.800 Or, well,

00:52:56.480 I'm really not a fan of Hamas,

00:52:58.660 but Israel's imposing

00:53:00.180 a blockade,

00:53:00.960 and et cetera, et cetera.

00:53:01.980 Never mind the fact

00:53:02.760 that the blockade

00:53:03.460 is the direct result

00:53:04.900 of Hamas's stated policies

00:53:06.740 and intentions.

00:53:09.800 After October 7,

00:53:11.260 something fundamentally shifted

00:53:13.180 and changed

00:53:14.000 like never before.

00:53:15.400 this overt,

00:53:17.260 like,

00:53:17.660 wow,

00:53:18.080 Hamas is amazing.

00:53:19.180 Wow,

00:53:19.680 like the armed resistance.

00:53:20.860 And I don't,

00:53:21.440 like,

00:53:21.660 I attribute that

00:53:22.360 to multiple components.

00:53:23.960 I think there is

00:53:25.140 foreign manipulation

00:53:26.600 into Western societies,

00:53:28.920 whether it be

00:53:29.700 by Russian

00:53:30.320 mis- and disinformation

00:53:31.960 or by agents

00:53:33.960 of the Islamic Republic

00:53:35.080 of Iran.

00:53:36.300 I don't want to

00:53:37.240 overstate that

00:53:38.040 because I just don't have

00:53:39.160 the intel

00:53:39.660 or the information,

00:53:40.480 and I'm not suggesting

00:53:42.180 that every single person

00:53:43.660 who's engaged

00:53:44.520 in pro-Palestine

00:53:45.860 or pro-resistant

00:53:46.760 is,

00:53:47.760 there's just a lot

00:53:48.400 of ill-informed

00:53:49.760 and, quite frankly,

00:53:50.740 unintelligent people

00:53:51.600 who are just engaged

00:53:52.820 in this discourse.

00:53:54.000 But I think

00:53:55.080 something fundamentally

00:53:56.340 changed

00:53:57.020 to where people

00:53:57.940 were genuinely,

00:53:59.440 maybe it's that

00:54:00.260 they saw that Hamas

00:54:01.560 won a tactical victory

00:54:03.760 on October 7

00:54:04.720 with a success,

00:54:06.220 and somehow

00:54:07.020 to some people

00:54:07.780 that beyond

00:54:09.100 just like all

00:54:09.820 the oppressors,

00:54:11.300 the oppressed

00:54:11.800 are fighting

00:54:12.320 their oppressors

00:54:13.300 and they're winning

00:54:14.020 and Che Guevara

00:54:15.140 and the romanticizing

00:54:18.340 of revolution,

00:54:20.300 maybe they saw

00:54:21.300 that Hamas'

00:54:22.480 armed resistance

00:54:23.420 temporarily won

00:54:24.620 and therefore

00:54:25.360 there's a potential

00:54:26.740 for undermining Israel

00:54:28.400 militarily

00:54:30.200 in the same way

00:54:31.260 that others

00:54:32.240 have propagated

00:54:33.220 the narrative

00:54:33.740 of,

00:54:34.400 well,

00:54:34.460 we hate the Taliban,

00:54:35.500 but they've emerged

00:54:37.320 victorious

00:54:37.860 after 20 years

00:54:38.760 of U.S. occupation,

00:54:39.900 the U.S. empire

00:54:40.940 or in Iraq.

00:54:43.040 So it could,

00:54:44.200 like,

00:54:44.440 I've tried to explain

00:54:46.100 to myself

00:54:47.240 just to understand

00:54:48.020 what is it

00:54:49.060 that got these

00:54:49.940 masses of people

00:54:51.060 to go along

00:54:52.160 with the Iranian propaganda,

00:54:54.140 to go along with,

00:54:55.300 and it went from Gaza

00:54:56.940 and now you have

00:54:58.380 people cheering on

00:54:59.360 the slave-owning

00:55:00.340 Houthis

00:55:00.900 in Yemen

00:55:02.180 or Hezbollah

00:55:03.260 in the north

00:55:04.380 or Iran

00:55:04.820 and that's

00:55:06.740 where I absolutely

00:55:07.540 agree

00:55:07.960 that it is

00:55:09.220 about the Islamic

00:55:09.980 Republic of Iran.

00:55:11.000 However,

00:55:11.780 I don't necessarily,

00:55:13.300 I've heard this,

00:55:14.000 like,

00:55:14.740 until Iran

00:55:15.640 is dealt with,

00:55:16.480 this won't go away.

00:55:18.700 I don't know

00:55:19.800 that that's necessarily

00:55:20.860 the case

00:55:21.380 and that I think

00:55:22.320 I don't see

00:55:23.720 Iran

00:55:25.000 fundamentally changing

00:55:26.900 any time soon.

00:55:27.640 I see signs

00:55:29.060 of them crumbling

00:55:29.760 from within

00:55:30.380 and who knows

00:55:31.560 what the Israeli

00:55:32.380 airstrikes

00:55:33.060 can potentially

00:55:34.940 trigger

00:55:35.420 in terms of

00:55:36.040 degrading

00:55:36.540 the Islamic

00:55:37.000 Republic's

00:55:37.720 capabilities.

00:55:39.640 I think we start

00:55:41.060 by educating

00:55:42.160 young college students

00:55:43.580 in the western world.

00:55:45.100 We start by exposing

00:55:46.520 the folly

00:55:47.340 of the armed resistance

00:55:48.600 and the access

00:55:49.700 of resistance narrative.

00:55:51.420 There are tactical,

00:55:53.860 operational,

00:55:55.020 and even somewhat

00:55:56.120 strategic components

00:55:57.400 of confronting this

00:55:58.920 that should begin

00:56:00.000 immediately,

00:56:01.100 that should initiate.

00:56:02.060 And I think

00:56:02.420 that's anchored

00:56:03.100 in them showcasing

00:56:06.080 the death

00:56:06.480 and destruction.

00:56:07.640 What kind of resistance

00:56:08.880 causes this?

00:56:11.120 Resistance is supposed

00:56:12.320 to protect people.

00:56:14.060 In this case,

00:56:15.100 in Gaza

00:56:15.480 and in Lebanon,

00:56:16.300 resistance is killing

00:56:17.460 people and is

00:56:18.480 destroying them.

00:56:19.440 And we're seeing

00:56:20.120 the Lebanese people,

00:56:21.500 like some neighborhoods

00:56:22.640 in Lebanon,

00:56:23.440 I've seen it in Arabic

00:56:24.460 social media,

00:56:25.420 where they're telling

00:56:26.200 Hezbollah guys,

00:56:27.000 get out of our neighborhood.

00:56:28.440 Don't come here.

00:56:29.640 Don't put your rocket

00:56:30.600 launchers near us.

00:56:31.840 So the whole

00:56:33.100 resistance concept

00:56:35.060 as formulated

00:56:36.060 by the Islamic Republic

00:56:37.420 and its proxies

00:56:38.620 is based upon

00:56:40.820 using the civilian

00:56:41.780 populations as pawns.

00:56:43.660 So we need

00:56:44.720 to delegitimize that

00:56:46.360 because that is evil.

00:56:48.480 That is deadly.

00:56:49.720 That is my mom

00:56:50.600 and siblings

00:56:51.640 losing their life

00:56:53.280 so that the mullahs

00:56:54.820 can basically

00:56:56.320 have their geopolitical

00:56:57.700 chess game

00:56:58.260 with Israel.

00:56:58.760 And we shouldn't

00:57:00.080 as Arab,

00:57:01.080 Muslim,

00:57:01.920 Palestinian people

00:57:02.760 have any part

00:57:04.360 in that.

00:57:05.040 We shouldn't

00:57:05.740 as allies

00:57:06.940 in the western world,

00:57:08.600 academia,

00:57:09.500 in media,

00:57:11.020 comedians,

00:57:12.080 all of these characters,

00:57:13.260 we shouldn't

00:57:14.260 inadvertently

00:57:15.140 enable

00:57:16.060 that narrative

00:57:17.380 and enable

00:57:18.340 that,

00:57:19.380 the nefarious use

00:57:21.040 of our people

00:57:22.100 as tools

00:57:22.840 and pawns.

00:57:24.160 But my worry is,

00:57:25.600 and if we come back

00:57:26.580 to the question,

00:57:27.240 Ahmed,

00:57:27.500 and I agree with

00:57:28.500 what you're saying,

00:57:29.680 the problem is

00:57:30.600 Iran is funding

00:57:31.660 a lot of these people.

00:57:32.940 They're training them.

00:57:34.180 They're helping

00:57:34.600 to organize them.

00:57:36.220 Hezbollah would not

00:57:37.120 exist without Iran.

00:57:38.660 Hamas would not

00:57:39.580 exist without Iran.

00:57:41.120 My concern is

00:57:42.360 that it doesn't matter

00:57:43.960 how many of these

00:57:45.280 psychopaths

00:57:47.180 you wipe out,

00:57:48.200 if you don't

00:57:49.600 deal with the flow

00:57:50.320 of money,

00:57:50.880 if you don't

00:57:51.640 deal with the

00:57:52.320 extremist training,

00:57:54.060 you're only going

00:57:54.900 to solve the problem

00:57:55.920 for a short amount

00:57:56.940 of time

00:57:57.460 before they regenerate,

00:57:59.400 before they regroup.

00:58:01.200 And as somebody

00:58:02.700 who has talked

00:58:03.620 to a lot of people

00:58:04.500 from both sides,

00:58:06.860 I really do think

00:58:08.140 that the only way

00:58:09.080 you're going to deal

00:58:09.900 with this,

00:58:10.240 if you want to solve

00:58:11.440 this problem

00:58:11.940 once and forever,

00:58:13.100 is to deal

00:58:14.300 with Iran.

00:58:15.380 Certainly.

00:58:16.100 Otherwise,

00:58:16.680 you're never,

00:58:17.240 it's always,

00:58:18.580 it's going to come

00:58:19.340 back again and again.

00:58:20.820 It's like dealing

00:58:21.520 with cancer,

00:58:22.180 but not cutting

00:58:22.860 out the tumor.

00:58:23.780 Certainly.

00:58:24.700 I fundamentally agree.

00:58:27.280 The concern

00:58:28.060 that I have

00:58:28.760 is I would very

00:58:29.920 much so hate

00:58:30.840 for this

00:58:31.720 to escalate

00:58:33.600 into a full-on,

00:58:35.260 I mean,

00:58:35.560 we already have

00:58:36.780 a low-intensity

00:58:37.800 regional war.

00:58:38.760 My biggest concern,

00:58:40.240 though,

00:58:40.820 and I talked to

00:58:41.680 friends and Arab

00:58:43.440 officials in the Gulf,

00:58:44.880 I mean,

00:58:45.680 our allies,

00:58:46.580 our troops,

00:58:48.240 our partners,

00:58:49.360 everybody's vulnerable

00:58:51.260 to the consequences

00:58:52.940 of dealing with Iran.

00:58:54.740 What does dealing

00:58:55.480 with Iran,

00:58:56.120 there's the,

00:58:57.680 is it,

00:58:58.460 do we go after

00:58:59.620 Iran militarily

00:59:00.640 and risk

00:59:01.420 a really apocalyptic

00:59:02.880 situation?

00:59:03.860 Do we starve Iran?

00:59:06.140 Do we undermine

00:59:07.080 the break

00:59:08.800 that Iran gets

00:59:09.720 from Russia

00:59:10.440 and China,

00:59:11.260 for example?

00:59:11.920 Like,

00:59:12.160 what that looks like

00:59:13.400 remains to be seen.

00:59:14.940 We also,

00:59:15.760 I will say,

00:59:16.360 unfortunately,

00:59:17.160 after Iraq

00:59:18.160 and Afghanistan

00:59:18.880 and those experiences

00:59:19.960 there,

00:59:21.300 I think in U.S.

00:59:22.120 foreign policy

00:59:22.860 circles,

00:59:23.820 there's a serious

00:59:25.540 reluctance

00:59:26.440 to take on,

00:59:27.980 to confront Iran

00:59:29.000 head on

00:59:29.600 out of concern

00:59:31.640 for the consequences.

00:59:32.740 And U.S.

00:59:33.380 foreign policy

00:59:34.060 in the Middle East

00:59:34.860 has failed

00:59:35.700 to radically,

00:59:38.620 I mean,

00:59:38.800 including Libya,

00:59:40.100 for example,

00:59:40.620 Libya,

00:59:41.000 Iraq,

00:59:41.280 and Afghanistan.

00:59:41.900 So what happens

00:59:43.140 in Iran,

00:59:43.820 a big country

00:59:44.680 that has

00:59:46.120 a deeply seated

00:59:47.700 sense of nationalism?

00:59:49.460 Do you inadvertently

00:59:51.260 empower the regime

00:59:53.120 by attacking it

00:59:54.240 head on

00:59:54.620 because Iranians

00:59:55.540 are going to

00:59:55.880 rally around it?

00:59:56.880 I don't have

00:59:58.240 enough information

00:59:59.120 as to what

00:59:59.920 does it look like

01:00:00.880 to go after Iran.

01:00:02.240 However,

01:00:03.040 I think from

01:00:04.560 a tactical point

01:00:06.120 of view

01:00:06.440 in Lebanon

01:00:07.140 and in Gaza,

01:00:08.820 I think there are

01:00:10.100 steps that can

01:00:11.120 be taken

01:00:11.540 to make sure

01:00:12.160 that Iran

01:00:12.700 can't come back

01:00:13.940 in there

01:00:14.320 financially,

01:00:15.480 politically,

01:00:15.900 and militarily.

01:00:16.700 It may not

01:00:17.500 permanently solve this.

01:00:18.980 It may take a while

01:00:20.260 to really cut off

01:00:22.100 Iran's access to it.

01:00:23.540 And I think

01:00:23.880 there are enough

01:00:24.540 people in Lebanon.

01:00:25.440 I mean,

01:00:25.780 Lebanon is such

01:00:26.540 a diverse nation

01:00:27.640 that there are,

01:00:29.000 and that's what

01:00:29.560 it actually makes

01:00:30.460 it easier

01:00:31.040 in a way

01:00:31.520 to collect intel

01:00:32.440 on Hezbollah

01:00:33.080 and to go after them

01:00:33.980 because there are

01:00:34.580 so many adversaries

01:00:35.760 and Lebanon is

01:00:37.000 a lot more open

01:00:37.820 than Gaza.

01:00:38.360 Gaza is smaller.

01:00:39.540 There's just a,

01:00:40.520 it's a very

01:00:41.240 homogenous population

01:00:43.040 religiously

01:00:44.280 and culturally.

01:00:45.240 But I think

01:00:47.000 the people of Gaza

01:00:48.140 now,

01:00:48.600 going back to

01:00:49.300 what we said

01:00:50.020 about Hamas

01:00:50.820 and about that

01:00:51.420 conversation,

01:00:53.040 I genuinely think

01:00:54.100 that there's

01:00:56.580 an opportunity,

01:00:57.520 a unique opportunity,

01:00:58.840 when and if

01:00:59.580 this war stops,

01:01:01.180 to fundamentally

01:01:02.820 shift things around

01:01:04.220 where the people

01:01:04.780 of Gaza

01:01:05.180 don't want to be

01:01:05.960 pawns for Hamas

01:01:06.860 or Iran.

01:01:07.420 They don't believe

01:01:08.640 in the armed

01:01:09.160 resistance anymore

01:01:10.100 because they see

01:01:11.020 what it does.

01:01:12.000 They also know

01:01:12.880 that Gaza's borders

01:01:13.820 are static.

01:01:14.660 They're,

01:01:15.080 like,

01:01:15.380 no amount of

01:01:16.120 armed resistance

01:01:17.000 is going to

01:01:17.800 change Gaza's borders.

01:01:19.360 No amount of

01:01:19.900 armed resistance

01:01:20.780 in Gaza

01:01:21.560 is going to

01:01:23.260 liberate the West Bank

01:01:24.720 or reverse

01:01:25.620 settlement activities

01:01:26.580 or open up

01:01:27.580 East Jerusalem

01:01:28.420 to the Palestinian people.

01:01:30.320 So,

01:01:30.700 in a sense,

01:01:32.600 what I predict

01:01:33.420 will happen

01:01:33.940 after the war

01:01:34.800 is that there

01:01:35.840 will be

01:01:36.520 a separation,

01:01:39.300 if you will,

01:01:39.800 of Gaza

01:01:40.400 from the broader

01:01:41.520 Israel and Palestine

01:01:43.680 conflict

01:01:44.340 and that there

01:01:45.320 will be an interest

01:01:46.640 in turning Gaza

01:01:47.560 into a successful

01:01:48.860 self-sustaining entity.

01:01:50.500 That's what I'm also

01:01:51.340 interested in,

01:01:52.200 honestly.

01:01:52.680 I don't,

01:01:53.940 I can't solve

01:01:55.080 the West Bank

01:01:56.180 and East Jerusalem.

01:01:56.860 I've never set foot

01:01:57.580 in the West Bank.

01:01:58.300 I can tell you

01:01:58.920 all about Gaza,

01:02:00.220 but I don't,

01:02:00.780 the West Bank

01:02:01.920 is fundamentally

01:02:02.740 more complicated.

01:02:04.260 I strongly believe

01:02:05.140 that solving Gaza

01:02:06.020 is actually

01:02:06.540 relatively easy

01:02:07.660 and especially

01:02:08.920 because of the

01:02:10.080 way in which

01:02:10.900 people are

01:02:11.480 rejecting Hamas,

01:02:12.500 ironically,

01:02:13.360 as morons in the West

01:02:14.860 are supporting Hamas.

01:02:16.720 I think

01:02:17.240 the reconstruction,

01:02:20.040 what is needed

01:02:21.000 in Gaza

01:02:21.360 isn't just reconstruction.

01:02:23.020 The reconstruction

01:02:23.860 has to be a part

01:02:25.620 of a broader

01:02:26.200 renaissance

01:02:26.980 and a transformation

01:02:28.300 of Gaza.

01:02:29.640 And that transformation

01:02:30.740 begins from within.

01:02:32.440 That transformation

01:02:33.200 is,

01:02:33.780 we are no longer

01:02:35.100 pawns.

01:02:35.960 We are not a threat

01:02:37.220 to Egypt or Israel

01:02:38.440 militarily.

01:02:39.600 We will only have

01:02:41.200 the type of arms

01:02:42.900 that we need

01:02:43.680 to run civil affairs

01:02:45.460 and local police,

01:02:46.560 but this will be

01:02:47.780 a demilitarized

01:02:49.100 territory.

01:02:51.560 Gaza is not just

01:02:52.460 going to be

01:02:52.880 reconstructed.

01:02:54.120 It's going to become

01:02:54.760 the crown jewel

01:02:55.800 of a Palestinian

01:02:56.880 people and nation.

01:02:58.100 It's going to be

01:02:58.400 the pride and joy

01:02:59.480 of Palestinians

01:03:00.220 in Gaza,

01:03:01.400 in the diaspora.

01:03:02.640 That's why I'm

01:03:03.600 through the Atlantic

01:03:04.320 Council and others

01:03:05.320 coming up with

01:03:06.180 different proposals.

01:03:07.100 For example,

01:03:07.640 one of the things

01:03:08.180 that I want to do

01:03:08.860 is I want to take

01:03:09.720 all the rubble

01:03:10.480 from Gaza,

01:03:11.080 and I have not

01:03:11.660 shared this publicly,

01:03:13.640 so I'm going to

01:03:14.300 share it here.

01:03:15.260 I want to put together

01:03:16.740 a proposal

01:03:17.280 to take all the rubble

01:03:18.640 from Gaza

01:03:19.300 and build an

01:03:20.280 artificial peninsula

01:03:21.500 in the middle

01:03:22.660 off of Gaza's coast

01:03:23.860 in the central

01:03:24.520 Gaza Strip

01:03:25.140 and have that

01:03:26.580 peninsula

01:03:27.120 house an airfield

01:03:28.600 and a seaport

01:03:29.620 humanitarian zones

01:03:31.320 and have it

01:03:32.180 basically be

01:03:32.900 a peninsula

01:03:34.920 of stability

01:03:35.960 amidst a sea

01:03:37.740 of instability

01:03:38.680 and horror

01:03:39.300 and war.

01:03:39.900 Because I think

01:03:40.640 unfortunately the war

01:03:41.720 is not going to

01:03:42.200 stop anytime soon,

01:03:43.760 we need to start

01:03:45.220 localizing solutions.

01:03:47.160 I want to open

01:03:47.860 Gaza up to the rest

01:03:48.840 of the world.

01:03:49.500 This is not going to

01:03:50.040 be the Dubai

01:03:50.600 International Airport.

01:03:52.380 It's going to be

01:03:52.820 a small airfield

01:03:54.020 that allows for

01:03:55.140 a non-Egyptian

01:03:55.900 and a non-Israeli

01:03:56.680 with full coordination

01:03:58.280 with the IDF

01:03:59.480 and the Israeli

01:04:00.100 military

01:04:00.620 to prevent

01:04:01.500 the facility

01:04:02.120 from smuggling

01:04:03.560 but also

01:04:04.620 to actually

01:04:05.680 prevent Hamas

01:04:07.500 from coming

01:04:08.020 into the facility.

01:04:09.360 Those who come

01:04:10.000 into the peninsula

01:04:12.080 will be vetted,

01:04:13.280 will bring in

01:04:13.840 the Arabs,

01:04:14.500 will bring in

01:04:14.920 private security,

01:04:15.840 will bring in

01:04:16.260 the European Union.

01:04:17.760 I want this

01:04:18.980 to be the nucleus

01:04:20.020 for Gaza's

01:04:20.960 future prosperity

01:04:22.060 and progress.

01:04:23.040 And again,

01:04:23.640 an airport

01:04:24.200 and a seaport

01:04:24.940 strategic infrastructure

01:04:26.240 that stabilizes Gaza

01:04:28.020 and most importantly

01:04:28.960 opens it up

01:04:29.860 so that it's not

01:04:30.580 a North Korea-like

01:04:31.720 entity.

01:04:33.020 I think solving Gaza

01:04:34.460 is pretty straightforward

01:04:35.500 once the war ends.

01:04:36.940 Well,

01:04:37.900 I think,

01:04:38.840 first of all,

01:04:39.400 it sounds incredible

01:04:40.100 and I hope that is

01:04:40.860 what happens

01:04:41.340 because it sounds

01:04:42.260 like the way out.

01:04:44.120 The problem is,

01:04:45.440 and you've alluded

01:04:46.060 to several times

01:04:46.840 and I think you're

01:04:47.320 absolutely right,

01:04:47.980 the issue is

01:04:48.740 the narrative of

01:04:49.780 the people you describe

01:04:51.780 as morons

01:04:52.420 chant repeatedly,

01:04:53.560 which is oppressed

01:04:55.420 people have a right

01:04:56.300 to resist,

01:04:57.420 right?

01:04:58.940 Armed resistance,

01:04:59.980 armed resistance,

01:05:00.660 armed resistance.

01:05:01.220 And what they really mean

01:05:02.320 when they say

01:05:02.800 armed resistance

01:05:03.360 is Israel shouldn't exist

01:05:05.300 because that's what

01:05:05.960 they mean.

01:05:06.300 Certainly.

01:05:06.820 Right?

01:05:07.180 Am I wrong about that?

01:05:07.960 No, I agree.

01:05:09.400 Unfortunately,

01:05:10.440 I mean...

01:05:11.320 So if you have a neighbor

01:05:12.960 who thinks your house

01:05:14.280 shouldn't exist,

01:05:15.400 no matter what

01:05:16.240 your intentions are,

01:05:17.280 no matter how you want

01:05:18.100 to build them

01:05:18.520 a special garden

01:05:19.260 where they can grow

01:05:19.920 their own fruit

01:05:20.560 and all the rest of it,

01:05:21.780 that is going to be

01:05:24.480 the perennial obstacle

01:05:25.820 in the way.

01:05:26.800 So I guess the question

01:05:27.800 I have for you is

01:05:29.200 how do we get to a point

01:05:32.220 where the people of Gaza

01:05:35.180 in particular,

01:05:35.960 but also perhaps

01:05:36.640 more broadly,

01:05:37.640 you know,

01:05:37.840 there are countries

01:05:38.520 in the Middle East

01:05:39.260 that support this,

01:05:40.140 Iran obviously being

01:05:41.100 one of them,

01:05:41.540 but in other places too.

01:05:42.760 How do you get to a point

01:05:44.120 where, you know,

01:05:45.980 everybody kind of accepts

01:05:47.360 that, you know,

01:05:48.360 I don't even know,

01:05:49.300 just I'm not maybe

01:05:50.300 that educated,

01:05:50.920 I don't even know

01:05:51.760 if the creation

01:05:52.400 of the state of Israel

01:05:53.320 was perfect in every way.

01:05:54.820 I also don't think

01:05:55.480 the creation

01:05:55.960 of the United States

01:05:56.920 was perfect in every way

01:05:58.060 as I think people

01:05:58.800 would concede, right?

01:06:00.160 So at some point

01:06:01.240 in history,

01:06:02.920 people have to kind of go,

01:06:04.540 we care more

01:06:05.240 about our children

01:06:06.240 precisely than about history.

01:06:08.620 Right?

01:06:08.920 How do you get

01:06:09.820 that region to that point?

01:06:12.200 And I'm going to share

01:06:13.700 something with you

01:06:14.400 that may surprise you

01:06:16.040 in some ways,

01:06:16.920 because unfortunately

01:06:17.500 we do have a few soundbites

01:06:20.160 and clips

01:06:20.900 and these content creators

01:06:22.320 that go to the territories

01:06:23.780 or go to the West Bank

01:06:25.220 and show extreme Palestinians

01:06:28.400 saying extreme things

01:06:29.680 about Israel,

01:06:30.200 doesn't exist, etc.

01:06:31.580 Believe it or not,

01:06:32.640 Palestinians in Gaza

01:06:33.900 and in the West Bank

01:06:34.720 are far more pragmatic

01:06:36.520 than Palestinians

01:06:37.620 in the diaspora

01:06:38.480 or the pro-Palestine community

01:06:39.920 in the diaspora.

01:06:41.280 When you were in Gaza

01:06:42.360 before October 7,

01:06:44.040 half of the population,

01:06:46.420 their biggest aspiration

01:06:47.440 was to get a work permit

01:06:48.620 to go work in Israel

01:06:49.580 or to get a medical permit

01:06:51.220 to go receive treatment

01:06:52.700 in Israel.

01:06:53.460 My friend who worked

01:06:54.600 in the international

01:06:55.300 humanitarian world,

01:06:57.340 in 2019,

01:06:58.900 he quit working

01:07:00.380 and he was a major director

01:07:02.140 in the humanitarian community.

01:07:03.740 He quit that

01:07:04.540 and went and became

01:07:05.440 a day laborer in Israel.

01:07:07.380 And he built a house,

01:07:09.640 he paid off his debts,

01:07:11.040 he got married,

01:07:12.080 he helped his brother

01:07:12.860 get married,

01:07:13.460 and established

01:07:14.800 a successful

01:07:15.460 mini tiny little business.

01:07:19.380 Palestinians understand

01:07:20.420 that Israel is here

01:07:21.400 to stay.

01:07:23.000 Palestinians after

01:07:23.880 October 7

01:07:24.720 really understand

01:07:25.880 that Israel is here

01:07:26.660 to stay.

01:07:27.620 Palestinians in the West Bank

01:07:28.880 will tell you

01:07:29.700 that our official

01:07:32.060 representative,

01:07:33.920 despite the

01:07:34.700 delegitimization

01:07:35.840 of Abbas,

01:07:36.760 who's not popular

01:07:37.620 and he's not liked,

01:07:38.920 but the Palestinian

01:07:40.200 authority runs

01:07:41.280 Area A

01:07:42.420 and parts

01:07:42.960 of Area B,

01:07:44.040 they've accepted

01:07:45.780 Israel's existence

01:07:46.740 and right to exist.

01:07:48.200 They've prevented

01:07:49.600 hundreds of terror

01:07:51.080 attacks against Israel,

01:07:52.720 even in the settlements,

01:07:54.180 by coordinating

01:07:54.980 with the IDF.

01:07:56.620 The Palestinians

01:07:57.340 will tell you

01:07:58.020 that unfortunately

01:07:58.760 they have accepted,

01:08:00.580 I mean,

01:08:00.920 this is part

01:08:01.420 of the narrative,

01:08:02.280 they've accepted

01:08:03.000 Israel's existence

01:08:04.080 and right to exist

01:08:05.140 and agreed

01:08:05.700 to the two-state solution

01:08:06.860 and instead

01:08:07.760 they got

01:08:08.240 sprawling settlements.

01:08:09.640 Now,

01:08:09.920 I have regularly

01:08:12.000 said that Hamas

01:08:13.060 and the right wing

01:08:13.920 within Israel,

01:08:14.800 the far right,

01:08:16.020 have had a symbiotic,

01:08:18.940 albeit an indirect,

01:08:19.980 relationship

01:08:20.480 and that they

01:08:21.060 needed each other.

01:08:23.040 Benkvir and Smotrich

01:08:24.260 wouldn't be

01:08:24.860 where they're at now

01:08:25.780 without Hamas'

01:08:26.700 suicide bombings

01:08:27.600 and the second intifada

01:08:28.900 that shrank

01:08:29.760 the peace camp

01:08:30.540 in Israel.

01:08:31.620 So,

01:08:32.500 though the Palestinians

01:08:33.580 have grievances

01:08:34.640 with the state

01:08:36.140 of Israel's

01:08:36.960 historic establishment,

01:08:38.620 with the policies

01:08:39.760 of settlements

01:08:40.440 in the West Bank

01:08:41.320 or the current

01:08:42.260 conduct of the war

01:08:43.240 in Gaza,

01:08:44.660 I think,

01:08:45.540 honestly,

01:08:46.060 if you really

01:08:46.860 take away the noise

01:08:47.760 and especially

01:08:48.620 if you meet people

01:08:49.500 in private,

01:08:50.320 not in public

01:08:51.360 because it's not

01:08:52.180 a democratic society,

01:08:53.640 there's safety concerns,

01:08:55.380 there's social pressure,

01:08:57.540 but if you meet people

01:08:58.900 at an individual level

01:09:00.620 the vast majority,

01:09:02.500 and I stand by this claim,

01:09:03.920 the vast majority

01:09:04.980 of Palestinians

01:09:05.760 acknowledge that

01:09:07.200 Israel is here

01:09:07.840 to stay.

01:09:09.060 And I think

01:09:10.860 what is needed

01:09:11.580 now more than ever

01:09:12.760 is to enable

01:09:14.540 this narrative shift

01:09:15.680 that you discussed

01:09:16.500 to show pragmatists

01:09:18.940 and moderates,

01:09:19.980 I hate the term

01:09:20.600 moderates,

01:09:21.080 but it's in the absence

01:09:22.640 of anything,

01:09:23.180 let's call it

01:09:23.840 moderates and pragmatists

01:09:25.160 like myself

01:09:25.800 or like elements

01:09:26.680 of the Palestinian Authority

01:09:27.720 that moderation

01:09:29.180 and acknowledging

01:09:30.420 Israel's right

01:09:31.160 to exist

01:09:31.680 pays off,

01:09:33.320 that it actually

01:09:34.240 to empower

01:09:35.900 the moderates

01:09:36.600 with wins.

01:09:38.800 I'm going to be honest

01:09:39.660 with you,

01:09:39.840 I'm an American,

01:09:40.480 I love being

01:09:40.980 in the United States,

01:09:42.400 I view myself

01:09:43.840 as an American

01:09:44.460 even though

01:09:45.080 obviously being

01:09:45.700 a Palestinian

01:09:46.360 from Gaza

01:09:47.060 is a foundational

01:09:48.280 component

01:09:48.920 of my identity,

01:09:50.320 but I feel

01:09:52.260 that the entirety

01:09:53.380 of my lived experience

01:09:54.740 and life

01:09:55.260 have been leading

01:09:56.060 me to a place

01:09:57.100 where I think

01:09:59.500 it's inevitable

01:10:00.080 that I play a role

01:10:01.160 in Gaza's future,

01:10:02.940 in Palestine's future,

01:10:04.340 what that exactly

01:10:05.500 looks like

01:10:06.080 remains to be seen,

01:10:07.220 but that's where

01:10:08.720 by this proposal,

01:10:10.540 it's not just

01:10:11.100 a humanitarian

01:10:11.700 endeavor to help

01:10:13.180 the people

01:10:14.020 with the airport

01:10:14.660 and seaport,

01:10:15.820 but I want

01:10:17.280 to do things

01:10:18.120 on the ground

01:10:18.800 for the people

01:10:19.480 in Gaza

01:10:19.940 to say,

01:10:20.400 look,

01:10:20.600 I did this

01:10:21.180 because I acknowledge

01:10:22.180 Israel's,

01:10:23.000 I was successful

01:10:24.020 because I acknowledge

01:10:25.000 Israel's existence

01:10:25.980 and right to safety

01:10:26.940 and security,

01:10:28.060 I coordinated

01:10:28.780 with the Israelis,

01:10:29.880 we're done with wars,

01:10:31.360 we're done with being pawns,

01:10:33.080 we are going to engage

01:10:33.960 in nation building

01:10:35.200 to build our nation

01:10:36.920 to be the best,

01:10:38.320 to make the best

01:10:39.260 state of Palestine.

01:10:40.540 What kind,

01:10:41.320 like one of the things

01:10:42.380 that I think

01:10:42.880 is lacking

01:10:44.000 is an internal

01:10:44.960 Palestinian dialogue,

01:10:46.460 not between Hamas

01:10:47.460 and Feteh,

01:10:48.880 but us as a people,

01:10:50.260 there's been no space

01:10:51.640 for us to talk about

01:10:52.420 what does it mean

01:10:53.520 to be Palestinian?

01:10:54.840 Who are we

01:10:55.460 as a people?

01:10:56.520 What kind of a nation

01:10:57.320 do we want?

01:10:58.040 Do we want,

01:10:58.680 okay, fine,

01:10:59.220 like of course we want

01:11:00.020 the military occupation

01:11:00.920 to end,

01:11:01.680 but what replaces

01:11:02.720 the occupation?

01:11:03.960 Is it Islamist theocracy?

01:11:06.300 Is it a democratic state?

01:11:08.680 Are we eventually

01:11:09.820 going to have

01:11:10.400 like truly,

01:11:11.760 you know,

01:11:12.420 a law-based society

01:11:15.540 where women

01:11:16.280 and men are equal,

01:11:17.560 where we don't have

01:11:19.040 elements of the tribal

01:11:20.980 kind of thinking,

01:11:22.920 governor,

01:11:23.140 like are we

01:11:23.920 going to be

01:11:24.200 a progressive society?

01:11:25.320 Are we going to be,

01:11:26.300 are we going to make

01:11:27.080 it possible

01:11:27.800 for women

01:11:28.420 to wear short skirts

01:11:30.240 and not be harassed?

01:11:31.200 Like all of those things,

01:11:32.880 like as an identity,

01:11:33.860 we lack that

01:11:34.720 as Palestinians

01:11:35.400 and I want,

01:11:36.860 I see that,

01:11:38.480 the moderate narrative,

01:11:40.380 the pragmatic narrative

01:11:41.460 as being an enabler

01:11:43.400 in that transformation

01:11:44.600 and that renaissance.

01:11:45.400 Well,

01:11:45.580 that sounds incredible.

01:11:47.180 The only thing

01:11:48.160 I would say is,

01:11:49.140 I hope in the doing that

01:11:50.540 you're very careful

01:11:51.240 because my fear

01:11:52.560 is understanding

01:11:53.320 the history of the region

01:11:54.260 as little as I do

01:11:55.140 is anyone who's tried

01:11:57.060 to pursue that path

01:11:58.060 gets blown up

01:11:59.060 or thrown off a building.

01:12:00.500 I was talking

01:12:02.120 to a friend last night

01:12:03.200 and...

01:12:03.700 I mean,

01:12:03.980 again,

01:12:04.240 am I wrong about this?

01:12:05.140 No,

01:12:05.540 no,

01:12:05.920 you're absolutely right.

01:12:06.760 So this is the problem

01:12:07.740 is it's not a battle

01:12:08.940 of narratives,

01:12:09.640 it's a battle

01:12:10.760 of people who've got guns

01:12:12.000 and the people

01:12:13.180 who are prepared

01:12:13.720 to be more extreme,

01:12:15.060 who are better armed,

01:12:15.980 who are prepared

01:12:16.420 to kill

01:12:16.900 their political opponents.

01:12:18.840 They're the ones

01:12:19.520 that repeatedly

01:12:20.340 end up in charge

01:12:21.400 of portions of land

01:12:22.580 around Israel

01:12:23.280 and they want

01:12:25.380 armed resistance

01:12:26.180 because it keeps

01:12:27.300 them important,

01:12:28.120 it keeps them rich,

01:12:29.000 it keeps them in charge.

01:12:30.560 Can I take a little detour

01:12:32.520 and just,

01:12:33.140 I can't not say this

01:12:34.520 because this is also

01:12:35.420 something that

01:12:36.060 both the Palestinian people

01:12:38.260 and the Israeli people

01:12:39.400 are paying the price of,

01:12:41.540 but can we acknowledge

01:12:42.940 that as much as

01:12:44.900 I agree completely,

01:12:46.140 that Hamas wouldn't be

01:12:47.360 where it's at

01:12:48.220 without Iran and Qatar.

01:12:50.720 Hamas in part

01:12:52.220 and directly

01:12:53.380 and indirectly

01:12:54.200 would also not be here

01:12:55.740 without Netanyahu

01:12:56.680 and his deliberate policy

01:12:58.500 since 2009

01:12:59.740 when he was deliberately

01:13:02.300 seeking to empower

01:13:03.680 the group

01:13:04.220 in pursuit

01:13:05.860 of the delegitimization

01:13:07.220 of the Palestinian Authority,

01:13:08.580 in pursuit of keeping

01:13:09.840 the Palestinians divided.

01:13:11.340 I'm saying very sadly

01:13:12.620 and I'm a proponent

01:13:14.160 of Palestinian agency,

01:13:15.460 I'm a proponent of

01:13:17.040 there's an imbalance

01:13:18.120 of power clearly

01:13:19.400 with Israel having

01:13:20.380 overwhelming power

01:13:21.400 on numerous levels.

01:13:22.500 That said,

01:13:23.480 I am a believer

01:13:25.280 that we have

01:13:26.240 responsibilities

01:13:27.100 and agency

01:13:28.080 and we have to have

01:13:29.560 accountability.

01:13:30.720 October 7 was a choice,

01:13:32.240 not an inevitability.

01:13:33.140 So even with all

01:13:34.940 of that said,

01:13:36.280 it is absolutely

01:13:37.340 an indisputable fact

01:13:38.880 mainline headlines

01:13:40.360 in Israel

01:13:40.980 will tell you

01:13:41.820 that Hamas

01:13:43.020 would not be

01:13:43.720 Ehud Barak,

01:13:45.060 former leader,

01:13:46.300 Olmert,

01:13:46.780 whom I met personally

01:13:47.760 and talked to several times,

01:13:49.620 will tell you

01:13:50.220 Hamas would not be

01:13:51.480 where it's at

01:13:52.280 right now,

01:13:53.300 not just in terms

01:13:54.540 of their ability

01:13:55.340 to carry out

01:13:56.920 October 7th

01:13:58.140 more disturbingly

01:14:01.780 in that they've had

01:14:03.540 this long runway

01:14:04.880 to spread

01:14:05.860 the armed resistance

01:14:06.680 narrative,

01:14:07.460 to radicalize

01:14:08.660 the education

01:14:09.680 and the narrative,

01:14:10.600 to radicalize

01:14:11.580 Palestinian society,

01:14:13.120 to chop off

01:14:14.040 the legs

01:14:14.600 and the heads

01:14:15.320 of the Palestinians

01:14:16.300 who want to

01:14:17.360 promote

01:14:18.000 a different narrative.

01:14:19.980 That was,

01:14:21.300 like,

01:14:21.700 where we're at

01:14:22.580 in terms of

01:14:23.160 the radicalization

01:14:24.080 is inseparable

01:14:25.100 from Israeli

01:14:26.200 political choices.

01:14:27.420 Well,

01:14:27.660 cycles of violence

01:14:28.460 always work like this,

01:14:29.440 right?

01:14:29.780 It's never

01:14:30.420 one side's fault only.

01:14:32.660 I guess what I'm

01:14:33.420 just saying is

01:14:34.160 in your efforts,

01:14:35.400 I wish you all

01:14:35.980 the luck in the world.

01:14:36.740 I just hope

01:14:37.160 you're very careful.

01:14:38.140 Oh,

01:14:38.400 believe me,

01:14:38.880 I don't have,

01:14:40.920 I mean,

01:14:41.220 and I'm,

01:14:42.040 to be clear,

01:14:43.360 I survived,

01:14:44.180 you know,

01:14:44.880 a bombing.

01:14:46.020 I'm largely,

01:14:46.580 part of why I'm loud

01:14:47.360 is I'm largely,

01:14:48.480 mainly deaf in my left ear

01:14:49.600 from an IDF bombing

01:14:50.720 that killed two of my friends

01:14:51.940 and almost killed me.

01:14:53.340 I've been in

01:14:55.060 direct war in Gaza

01:14:56.820 and the Ghosh Katif

01:14:58.000 settlement checkpoint

01:14:59.360 where we've been shot at.

01:15:01.260 Like,

01:15:01.420 I've experienced war

01:15:02.440 and I'm actually grateful

01:15:03.440 to be alive.

01:15:04.300 Like,

01:15:04.440 I don't believe in martyrdom.

01:15:05.960 I want to undermine

01:15:07.060 the martyrdom narrative.

01:15:08.940 So I care about living,

01:15:10.240 believe it or not.

01:15:11.440 And I don't want

01:15:12.020 to be a martyr,

01:15:12.700 but I very much so

01:15:13.880 accept and embrace

01:15:15.980 that what I'm doing

01:15:17.340 right now,

01:15:18.300 even here in the United States,

01:15:19.660 the amount of threats

01:15:20.660 that I receive

01:15:21.460 is unreal.

01:15:22.700 I mean,

01:15:22.920 I've had to get body armor

01:15:24.660 and firearms

01:15:25.560 and protect myself.

01:15:27.340 And these are not

01:15:28.420 just like online trolls.

01:15:29.780 These are highly specialized

01:15:31.080 people who go out

01:15:33.040 of their way

01:15:33.540 to be extremely descriptive

01:15:36.060 in the type of threats

01:15:37.880 and we're going to

01:15:39.020 rape your children

01:15:39.960 and behead your wife.

01:15:41.080 I don't have children

01:15:41.700 or a wife,

01:15:42.500 but like people

01:15:43.320 that just like

01:15:43.980 go in sadistic terms

01:15:45.380 and trying to terrify me.

01:15:47.540 And I was talking

01:15:48.040 to a friend of mine

01:15:48.680 last night

01:15:49.120 and I said,

01:15:49.520 I embrace that

01:15:51.020 my life expectancy

01:15:52.680 may not be the highest

01:15:53.920 as a result of this work

01:15:54.960 that I'm doing,

01:15:55.620 but I also genuinely think

01:15:57.980 the number of Arabs

01:15:59.880 and Muslims

01:16:00.340 and Palestinians

01:16:00.980 who regularly

01:16:01.940 cheer me on

01:16:03.020 often in private,

01:16:04.280 they tell me,

01:16:05.080 you're saying

01:16:05.540 what we know is true,

01:16:06.780 but we can't say so publicly.

01:16:08.500 Thank God

01:16:09.180 someone else is saying it.

01:16:10.620 The way that I've structured

01:16:11.880 my life is

01:16:12.920 I'm not like

01:16:14.140 I have a lot of Palestinian

01:16:15.140 and Arab

01:16:15.520 and Muslim friends,

01:16:16.560 but like

01:16:16.840 everybody's my community.

01:16:18.760 I'm not,

01:16:19.500 I don't live my day-to-day life

01:16:20.960 as part of that community

01:16:22.300 here in the United States

01:16:23.440 or anywhere else.

01:16:24.840 So it doesn't matter

01:16:25.980 if I get attacked.

01:16:27.000 It doesn't matter

01:16:27.640 if I get maligned

01:16:28.660 by,

01:16:29.060 if I get excommunicated

01:16:30.680 from my community.

01:16:33.380 Other people,

01:16:34.400 unfortunately,

01:16:35.020 they're at the mosque

01:16:35.820 and they're at the hookah bar

01:16:36.980 and they're at the family gatherings

01:16:38.420 and so many people

01:16:40.900 tell me

01:16:41.460 in Palestine,

01:16:42.700 in Gaza,

01:16:43.580 in the United States,

01:16:45.540 dude,

01:16:45.720 I start to like

01:16:47.100 say things about Hamas,

01:16:48.360 but my family have gone crazy.

01:16:49.920 I start to challenge

01:16:51.300 what's happening

01:16:52.100 or like October 7

01:16:53.460 or to humanize

01:16:54.320 Israeli hostages,

01:16:55.360 but my family

01:16:56.800 immediately jumped to like,

01:16:57.680 well,

01:16:57.780 what about our prisoners?

01:16:58.780 What about this?

01:16:59.280 What about that?

01:16:59.780 So like,

01:17:00.280 I genuinely believe

01:17:02.420 there are enough

01:17:03.320 Ahmads,

01:17:04.540 like I speak

01:17:05.440 for myself.

01:17:06.400 I don't speak

01:17:06.740 for anyone else.

01:17:07.780 There are enough Ahmads

01:17:08.780 out there

01:17:09.340 whom if given the space,

01:17:11.800 the protection,

01:17:13.400 the pathway,

01:17:14.320 the runway

01:17:15.620 would absolutely

01:17:17.240 come forward

01:17:18.140 in significant enough numbers

01:17:19.880 to change the narrative,

01:17:21.140 but most importantly,

01:17:22.460 the narrative shift

01:17:23.440 cannot stand on its own.

01:17:25.000 There have to be

01:17:25.660 changes on the ground

01:17:27.080 to improve

01:17:27.740 the lives of people.

01:17:29.540 And that's where,

01:17:30.300 again,

01:17:30.540 I want to do

01:17:31.320 humanitarian projects

01:17:32.560 in Gaza

01:17:33.060 to be able to

01:17:34.360 show my people

01:17:36.040 that my positions,

01:17:38.260 my shift in narrative

01:17:39.760 is backed up

01:17:41.340 by progress

01:17:42.040 on the ground,

01:17:42.700 meaning this is

01:17:44.600 the way forward.

01:17:45.500 This is how

01:17:45.940 we de-radicalize.

01:17:46.920 The other thing too

01:17:47.600 is I want to

01:17:48.080 do de-radicalization

01:17:50.160 without,

01:17:51.640 but I've been struggling

01:17:52.700 until I come up

01:17:54.040 with an alternative

01:17:54.800 word to de-radicalization.

01:17:56.340 I studied

01:17:56.980 counterterrorism

01:17:57.900 and security.

01:17:59.800 De-radicalization

01:18:00.600 in a counterterrorism

01:18:01.940 context alone

01:18:02.900 is not going to

01:18:04.060 cut it

01:18:04.420 for the Palestinian story,

01:18:05.940 particularly because

01:18:06.680 of how,

01:18:08.120 you know,

01:18:08.400 like,

01:18:09.000 this is a long conflict.

01:18:10.140 This is not just a,

01:18:11.880 you know,

01:18:12.060 we're,

01:18:12.520 we're,

01:18:12.800 you know,

01:18:13.220 so,

01:18:14.360 and also de-radicalization

01:18:15.660 inherently starts

01:18:17.020 from an imbalance

01:18:18.500 of,

01:18:18.980 like,

01:18:20.000 you're here,

01:18:20.820 you're down here,

01:18:21.620 oh,

01:18:21.820 you dirty radical ones,

01:18:23.620 let me clean you up

01:18:24.520 and let me de-radicalize you.

01:18:26.440 I want to do de-radicalization

01:18:28.080 as a form of empowerment,

01:18:30.240 that de-radicalization

01:18:31.580 pays off.

01:18:32.460 De-radicalization

01:18:33.260 is progress

01:18:33.840 for your life,

01:18:34.940 for your family.

01:18:35.780 De-radicalization

01:18:36.660 is part of that renaissance

01:18:37.980 and that transformation.

01:18:39.180 And I genuinely think

01:18:41.240 there's hunger

01:18:41.820 for that in the,

01:18:42.700 because did you know

01:18:43.920 that the Palestinian people

01:18:45.600 have the lowest

01:18:46.540 illiteracy rates

01:18:48.000 in the entirety

01:18:48.840 of the Middle East?

01:18:49.740 We don't lack

01:18:51.160 an education.

01:18:52.480 By the way,

01:18:52.940 the other thing

01:18:53.440 about the,

01:18:53.980 the,

01:18:54.140 the,

01:18:54.220 Can I just stop you,

01:18:55.080 can I just stop you there?

01:18:56.160 And again,

01:18:57.380 I'm,

01:18:57.640 I'm loving the passion

01:18:58.820 and what you're saying,

01:19:00.440 but I look at the,

01:19:02.120 the individuals

01:19:03.280 that get radicalized

01:19:04.360 in the UK.

01:19:05.260 A lot of them

01:19:05.820 are very educated.

01:19:07.180 A lot of them

01:19:07.920 are very intelligent.

01:19:08.720 A lot of them

01:19:09.320 went to university.

01:19:10.380 This isn't necessarily

01:19:11.480 about education.

01:19:12.720 We're talking about

01:19:13.620 something very different,

01:19:14.860 different,

01:19:15.440 differently,

01:19:16.020 Ahmed,

01:19:16.500 which is the power

01:19:17.460 of ideology.

01:19:18.860 Precisely.

01:19:19.380 And it's,

01:19:20.340 to me,

01:19:21.240 education,

01:19:21.980 okay,

01:19:22.240 it may be part of it,

01:19:23.020 but it's not the whole of it.

01:19:24.000 Like I said,

01:19:24.780 there's lots of people,

01:19:26.200 unfortunately,

01:19:27.200 highly educated,

01:19:28.260 highly intelligent,

01:19:29.200 who fall for this

01:19:30.420 toxic death cult.

01:19:32.180 I couldn't agree more,

01:19:33.240 brother.

01:19:33.560 I mean,

01:19:34.340 unfortunately,

01:19:34.920 a lot of Hamas's guys,

01:19:36.480 they have PhDs.

01:19:38.580 The issue,

01:19:39.740 however,

01:19:40.700 is that

01:19:41.180 there hasn't been

01:19:43.500 the moderate equivalent

01:19:45.800 of ideology.

01:19:47.460 Like,

01:19:47.620 there isn't a moderate

01:19:48.640 ideology.

01:19:50.800 Moderation

01:19:51.360 and pragmatism

01:19:52.920 are a set of

01:19:54.220 ideas

01:19:55.620 and tactical beliefs

01:19:56.900 that we have

01:19:57.740 to work with

01:19:58.540 what the cards

01:19:59.500 were dealt.

01:20:00.620 A,

01:20:00.980 B,

01:20:01.300 C,

01:20:01.640 D.

01:20:02.000 It's very,

01:20:02.740 like,

01:20:03.000 matter of fact.

01:20:03.940 This is how to get

01:20:04.640 results done.

01:20:06.100 Moderation

01:20:06.700 is not as sexy

01:20:08.780 as radical ideas.

01:20:10.480 It's not as appealing

01:20:11.660 as connecting

01:20:13.200 Palestine

01:20:13.780 to the struggle

01:20:14.700 against the Jews

01:20:15.660 and the Zionist entity

01:20:17.060 or connecting it

01:20:18.520 to the broader,

01:20:19.160 if you're a leftist

01:20:19.960 or a non-rightist,

01:20:20.800 the broader decolonization

01:20:22.720 and,

01:20:23.200 you know,

01:20:23.820 intersectionality.

01:20:25.100 That's why you have

01:20:25.700 the, you know,

01:20:26.300 queers for Palestine

01:20:27.120 and somehow

01:20:28.180 queers rights

01:20:29.060 and,

01:20:29.600 you know,

01:20:30.060 BLM

01:20:30.960 and Black Lives Matter

01:20:32.100 issues

01:20:32.940 are connected

01:20:33.560 to the struggle

01:20:34.620 of Palestinians

01:20:35.280 in Gaza.

01:20:36.520 There's an attempt

01:20:37.480 to map out

01:20:38.380 a lot of leftist

01:20:39.420 and social justice

01:20:40.840 discourse

01:20:41.440 to the Israel

01:20:42.380 and Palestine issue

01:20:43.220 and it's simply

01:20:44.880 not that.

01:20:45.620 Palestine,

01:20:46.280 Israel is not

01:20:46.860 going to disappear

01:20:47.540 per the South Africa

01:20:48.600 model.

01:20:49.080 There is this

01:20:49.620 unfortunate belief

01:20:51.140 among many

01:20:51.860 that Israel

01:20:53.240 is a temporary

01:20:54.640 project

01:20:55.460 that is passing

01:20:56.480 and this is not

01:20:57.660 just an Islamist idea.

01:20:58.900 This is part

01:20:59.460 of the whole

01:21:00.100 decolonizing left

01:21:02.040 and so that's

01:21:03.540 the part

01:21:03.980 that I struggle

01:21:05.620 with

01:21:06.020 because I'm,

01:21:07.380 what I'm inspiring,

01:21:08.480 when I go to

01:21:09.100 Palestinians in Gaza

01:21:10.120 and I talk to them,

01:21:11.300 what inspires them

01:21:12.360 is,

01:21:13.180 I like the thought

01:21:13.980 of having an airport

01:21:15.100 that I can use

01:21:16.420 to get in and out.

01:21:17.620 I love the idea

01:21:19.160 of a seaport.

01:21:19.920 I love the idea

01:21:20.520 of like my home

01:21:21.360 being rebuilt.

01:21:22.460 Like,

01:21:23.460 I want,

01:21:24.000 I don't want

01:21:24.440 any more war.

01:21:25.100 I don't want

01:21:25.520 any violence.

01:21:26.340 I don't want

01:21:26.600 to,

01:21:26.900 but I haven't

01:21:27.880 gone a step

01:21:28.540 further.

01:21:29.300 I haven't yet

01:21:30.180 gone a step

01:21:30.860 further

01:21:31.260 in providing

01:21:32.580 this counter

01:21:33.540 ideology.

01:21:34.420 But I struggle

01:21:35.500 with that

01:21:35.700 because I also

01:21:36.140 think all

01:21:36.720 ideologies,

01:21:37.540 in a sense,

01:21:38.320 are a form

01:21:38.800 of fascism

01:21:39.380 because you're

01:21:39.840 just like

01:21:40.240 with your team

01:21:41.480 all the way

01:21:42.480 and you can't

01:21:43.140 have any nuance.

01:21:44.000 So I struggle

01:21:44.820 with,

01:21:45.260 and I'd love

01:21:45.740 to hear it

01:21:46.160 like from you,

01:21:46.840 like what

01:21:47.680 could moderate

01:21:49.820 ideology look

01:21:50.860 like?

01:21:51.080 Because people

01:21:51.820 in today's

01:21:53.100 fragmented world,

01:21:54.220 in today's

01:21:54.800 polarized world,

01:21:56.060 they need

01:21:57.440 something more

01:21:58.180 than the Maslow

01:21:59.240 hierarchy of needs

01:22:00.100 and ideology

01:22:00.780 kind of sits

01:22:01.460 at the top.

01:22:02.260 And I don't

01:22:03.160 know what

01:22:03.640 replaces that

01:22:04.280 beyond what

01:22:05.620 I've been

01:22:06.220 dabbling with

01:22:06.860 and I've been

01:22:07.240 talking to other

01:22:07.760 Palestinians is,

01:22:08.720 is to actually

01:22:09.700 think about this.

01:22:11.240 Like,

01:22:12.120 I said to a friend

01:22:12.860 of mine,

01:22:13.120 I want to be

01:22:13.520 like the Theodor

01:22:14.280 Herzl of the

01:22:15.240 Palestinian people.

01:22:16.160 I want to

01:22:16.660 create the

01:22:17.200 Palestinian equivalent

01:22:18.500 of the Zionist

01:22:20.020 movement in

01:22:20.800 the sense

01:22:21.140 of what

01:22:21.960 is our

01:22:22.400 like idea,

01:22:23.540 who are we

01:22:24.140 as a people?

01:22:24.960 What does it

01:22:25.620 mean to be

01:22:26.100 Palestinian?

01:22:27.100 How do you

01:22:27.600 express

01:22:28.100 Palestinianism

01:22:30.120 and Palestinian

01:22:31.120 identity?

01:22:31.980 Is it a set

01:22:32.640 of beliefs?

01:22:33.320 Is it tied

01:22:33.840 to the land?

01:22:34.980 Is it our

01:22:35.840 connection to

01:22:36.440 the Arab

01:22:36.820 and Muslim

01:22:37.240 world?

01:22:37.820 And then once

01:22:38.780 we figure out

01:22:39.340 this identity,

01:22:41.040 like how do

01:22:41.540 we inspire,

01:22:42.520 like in the

01:22:43.280 same way that

01:22:43.900 Birthright brings

01:22:45.120 all these young

01:22:46.100 Jewish kids who

01:22:47.240 know nothing

01:22:48.120 about Israel,

01:22:48.920 are not really

01:22:49.840 in touch with

01:22:50.540 Israel or

01:22:52.720 with their

01:22:53.100 Jewish heritage

01:22:54.000 and identity.

01:22:55.100 They go to

01:22:55.720 Israel and

01:22:56.680 they get

01:22:57.020 inspired and

01:22:58.100 it's maybe

01:22:59.380 not exactly

01:23:00.660 an ideology but

01:23:01.600 there's this

01:23:02.460 inspirational

01:23:03.280 connection to

01:23:04.360 Israel.

01:23:05.860 So similarly,

01:23:07.000 I want to do

01:23:07.760 an inspirational

01:23:09.480 connection to

01:23:10.980 peace and

01:23:11.660 coexistence as a

01:23:12.960 courageous evolution

01:23:14.160 that is necessary

01:23:15.840 to preserve the

01:23:16.800 Palestinian people

01:23:17.660 and to allow

01:23:18.440 for the

01:23:18.980 prosperity and

01:23:20.220 the renaissance

01:23:20.880 of the

01:23:21.400 Palestinian people.

01:23:22.220 Because again,

01:23:22.920 we've been

01:23:23.480 victims, yes,

01:23:24.480 of Israeli

01:23:25.040 policies and

01:23:25.980 occupation,

01:23:27.140 but we've also

01:23:27.680 been victims of

01:23:28.520 horrendous leadership.

01:23:29.520 I said earlier,

01:23:30.220 we had the

01:23:31.120 pan-Arabism of

01:23:32.560 Nasser in the

01:23:33.340 50s and 60s,

01:23:34.220 we have the

01:23:34.800 PLO's secularism

01:23:36.060 and the

01:23:36.380 PFLP's

01:23:37.160 Marxism and

01:23:38.240 Hamas's

01:23:38.960 Islamism now.

01:23:40.240 Different

01:23:40.680 ideologies,

01:23:41.920 but unfortunately

01:23:43.120 the same

01:23:43.780 destructive outcome.

01:23:44.660 So to me,

01:23:45.960 it's about

01:23:46.840 working with

01:23:47.500 religious leaders.

01:23:48.600 It's about

01:23:49.340 working with

01:23:49.860 religious leaders

01:23:50.600 having a

01:23:51.700 better,

01:23:52.280 more tolerant

01:23:52.800 version of

01:23:53.420 Islam and

01:23:54.020 not this

01:23:54.520 extremist

01:23:55.500 strand which

01:23:57.060 is radicalising

01:23:57.920 because until

01:23:58.400 you deal with

01:23:59.560 the extreme

01:24:00.100 mullahs,

01:24:00.900 to me,

01:24:01.860 looking at

01:24:02.640 Lebanon,

01:24:03.060 I don't know

01:24:04.020 what I'm really

01:24:04.560 talking about here,

01:24:05.720 but you look

01:24:07.100 at what's

01:24:07.460 happening in

01:24:07.900 the UK,

01:24:08.840 a lot of

01:24:09.460 these kids

01:24:09.900 get radicalised

01:24:10.760 in mosques.

01:24:11.780 They get

01:24:12.120 radicalised by

01:24:13.000 extremist

01:24:13.560 mullahs.

01:24:13.920 You need

01:24:14.520 to deal

01:24:14.960 with that

01:24:15.700 in the

01:24:16.560 same way

01:24:17.040 that the

01:24:17.300 UAE have

01:24:17.980 come down

01:24:18.520 and really

01:24:19.160 cracked down

01:24:19.920 because until

01:24:21.220 you deal

01:24:21.760 with those

01:24:22.280 types of

01:24:22.740 individuals,

01:24:23.680 those groups,

01:24:24.360 that rhetoric,

01:24:26.800 nothing is

01:24:27.940 going to be

01:24:28.240 allowed to

01:24:28.660 flourish.

01:24:29.080 Nothing can

01:24:29.540 flourish in

01:24:30.020 extremism apart

01:24:31.080 from more

01:24:31.540 extremism,

01:24:32.440 death,

01:24:32.880 destruction,

01:24:33.560 misery.

01:24:34.160 And that's

01:24:34.460 why I think

01:24:34.820 your big

01:24:35.160 hope comes

01:24:35.660 in because

01:24:36.240 you would

01:24:38.240 hope that

01:24:38.740 after everything

01:24:39.540 that has

01:24:39.900 happened,

01:24:40.340 there's a

01:24:40.680 hunger for

01:24:41.380 stability and

01:24:42.240 peace in

01:24:43.460 Gaza.

01:24:43.920 I'm sure

01:24:45.720 there are a

01:24:46.100 lot of

01:24:46.320 very angry

01:24:46.780 people there

01:24:47.340 too.

01:24:47.920 Absolutely.

01:24:48.880 But ultimately

01:24:50.560 as we talked

01:24:51.280 about,

01:24:51.580 the way this

01:24:52.060 ends is

01:24:52.760 people have

01:24:54.780 to accept

01:24:55.400 on both

01:24:56.120 sides the

01:24:56.660 reality that's

01:24:57.780 on the

01:24:58.040 ground.

01:24:59.600 Israel has

01:25:01.420 nuclear weapons

01:25:02.040 for God's

01:25:02.460 sake.

01:25:02.700 I mean,

01:25:03.060 you can keep

01:25:03.980 attacking it,

01:25:04.840 but ultimately

01:25:05.600 this isn't

01:25:06.220 going to work.

01:25:07.420 And more and

01:25:08.020 more children

01:25:08.620 are going to

01:25:09.020 die.

01:25:09.660 However,

01:25:10.080 this is where

01:25:10.560 the religious

01:25:11.080 dimension comes

01:25:11.800 in.

01:25:11.960 Because if

01:25:12.200 you think

01:25:12.560 your children

01:25:13.260 are going

01:25:13.580 to heaven

01:25:14.000 because they

01:25:14.720 blew themselves

01:25:15.620 up on a

01:25:16.100 bus somewhere,

01:25:17.120 then you've

01:25:18.320 got a

01:25:18.520 problem.

01:25:19.780 But may

01:25:20.040 I also

01:25:20.520 bring in

01:25:21.380 another

01:25:21.780 critical

01:25:22.400 component?

01:25:23.020 I talk

01:25:23.440 to Israelis

01:25:24.220 across the

01:25:24.980 political

01:25:25.340 spectrum.

01:25:26.400 In the

01:25:27.000 same way,

01:25:27.740 and I

01:25:27.940 understand

01:25:28.360 someone would

01:25:28.960 say that

01:25:30.300 there might

01:25:31.820 be more of

01:25:32.420 an issue on

01:25:32.960 one side

01:25:33.520 over the

01:25:33.920 other,

01:25:35.100 we're also

01:25:35.640 going to need

01:25:36.000 to do

01:25:36.300 de-radicalization

01:25:37.140 in Israel,

01:25:37.880 unfortunately.

01:25:38.560 Because Israel

01:25:39.320 has been

01:25:40.000 so significantly

01:25:42.120 radicalized from

01:25:43.020 a religious

01:25:43.480 point of view

01:25:44.020 and politically,

01:25:45.100 they're not

01:25:45.680 just fringe

01:25:46.400 parties.

01:25:47.160 They are the

01:25:48.300 government.

01:25:48.920 They are the

01:25:49.480 main representative.

01:25:50.800 And there are

01:25:51.220 Israelis,

01:25:51.900 including die-hard

01:25:53.540 Zionists that I

01:25:54.400 talked to,

01:25:55.400 who are

01:25:55.800 internally,

01:25:56.840 genuinely terrified

01:25:57.840 of the direction

01:25:59.520 in which the

01:26:00.160 country,

01:26:00.680 and the smart,

01:26:02.100 you know,

01:26:02.540 secular,

01:26:03.360 big business

01:26:03.900 people,

01:26:04.180 a lot of them

01:26:04.600 are leaving

01:26:05.020 and they're

01:26:05.340 going to Europe

01:26:05.840 or they're

01:26:06.100 going to the

01:26:06.440 United States.

01:26:08.060 Here's the

01:26:08.620 difference,

01:26:09.200 Ahmed,

01:26:10.080 I think.

01:26:10.920 Again,

01:26:11.340 correct me if

01:26:11.800 I'm wrong.

01:26:12.500 Israel is a

01:26:13.020 democracy.

01:26:14.220 If the people

01:26:14.880 of Israel

01:26:15.380 felt secure,

01:26:16.900 felt that they

01:26:17.440 were not

01:26:17.800 vulnerable to

01:26:18.440 more attacks,

01:26:19.220 that they

01:26:20.160 have a

01:26:20.580 peaceful

01:26:20.920 neighbor about

01:26:22.280 which they

01:26:22.760 don't need

01:26:23.040 to worry,

01:26:23.960 they wouldn't

01:26:24.480 vote in people

01:26:25.100 like Benjamin

01:26:25.700 Netanyahu.

01:26:26.700 That's the

01:26:27.220 difference.

01:26:27.940 So in a

01:26:28.300 democracy,

01:26:29.160 as people

01:26:29.820 feel more

01:26:30.360 comfortable,

01:26:30.920 they will not

01:26:31.420 vote in people

01:26:32.100 who are that

01:26:33.200 aggressive or who

01:26:35.040 they feel

01:26:35.960 they need

01:26:36.620 on a

01:26:37.220 wartime

01:26:37.760 basis,

01:26:38.460 right?

01:26:39.080 Now,

01:26:39.740 I agree to

01:26:41.040 a large extent

01:26:41.940 in that the

01:26:42.960 right wing in

01:26:43.520 Israel would

01:26:44.100 not be where

01:26:44.840 they're at

01:26:45.400 had it not

01:26:46.080 been for

01:26:46.560 Hamas and

01:26:47.100 other forms

01:26:47.720 of Palestinian

01:26:48.620 extremism.

01:26:49.780 Nevertheless,

01:26:50.820 again,

01:26:51.260 looking back at

01:26:52.660 the West Bank,

01:26:54.020 even though there

01:26:54.660 are instances of

01:26:55.600 violence here and

01:26:56.800 there,

01:26:57.700 for most of the

01:26:59.160 last 15 years,

01:27:00.920 if you will,

01:27:02.020 you have the

01:27:02.360 Palestinian authority

01:27:03.300 with U.S.

01:27:04.180 funding and

01:27:04.740 support and

01:27:06.060 training,

01:27:07.660 coordinating with

01:27:08.280 Israel,

01:27:09.560 keeping Hamas

01:27:10.420 out.

01:27:11.520 Yes,

01:27:12.020 some armed

01:27:13.460 guys in

01:27:14.180 Janine and

01:27:14.820 Nablus and

01:27:15.760 in the northern

01:27:16.300 parts of the

01:27:16.800 West Bank,

01:27:17.240 they're there

01:27:17.620 every now and

01:27:18.180 then.

01:27:18.620 Every now and

01:27:19.440 then you'll

01:27:19.840 get a shooting

01:27:20.500 here and

01:27:20.860 there.

01:27:21.780 But what I'm

01:27:23.080 saying is there

01:27:24.540 was no particular

01:27:25.820 threat from the

01:27:27.360 West Bank and

01:27:27.960 you had the

01:27:28.360 wall in there,

01:27:29.640 the separation

01:27:30.240 wall, the

01:27:31.280 barrier, the

01:27:31.980 security wall.

01:27:32.680 And yet there

01:27:34.920 was further

01:27:35.840 radicalization within

01:27:37.580 Israeli society that

01:27:39.400 resulted in the

01:27:40.380 worsening of the

01:27:41.280 settlements.

01:27:41.940 I'm not dismissing

01:27:43.140 what you're saying.

01:27:43.860 I'm saying that

01:27:44.660 there's a strain of

01:27:46.060 radicalism within

01:27:47.000 Israel that,

01:27:48.580 quite frankly,

01:27:49.180 no longer believes

01:27:50.180 it's necessary to

01:27:51.440 have peace with the

01:27:52.200 Palestinians.

01:27:52.940 They view the

01:27:53.780 conflict in purely

01:27:54.940 security mindset

01:27:56.880 that you can manage

01:27:58.300 the occupation.

01:27:59.360 Yeah, totally.

01:28:00.300 I think that's

01:28:01.100 true.

01:28:01.360 I think after

01:28:03.280 October 7th, it's

01:28:04.500 hard to see why

01:28:05.200 they wouldn't feel

01:28:06.020 that way, right?

01:28:07.220 And so that's

01:28:08.140 why I think what

01:28:09.040 you're saying is

01:28:09.480 very important,

01:28:10.260 that as there

01:28:13.360 is less violence,

01:28:14.540 the hope is that

01:28:15.640 both sides can

01:28:17.000 move towards an

01:28:18.940 appreciation of the

01:28:19.980 fact that that's

01:28:20.640 actually better than

01:28:21.440 what they have now.

01:28:22.440 And going back to

01:28:22.960 what you said

01:28:23.440 earlier about the

01:28:24.320 religious component,

01:28:25.480 I mean, I'm

01:28:26.020 fascinated by some

01:28:27.180 of the

01:28:27.460 de-radicalization

01:28:28.360 attempts that

01:28:29.720 are efforts that

01:28:30.500 are more top

01:28:31.840 down and that

01:28:32.620 they are quickly

01:28:33.380 implemented.

01:28:34.340 They tend to

01:28:35.680 work in the

01:28:36.680 short term.

01:28:37.780 There are

01:28:38.580 questions about

01:28:39.480 when the

01:28:40.740 person up top

01:28:41.960 is gone,

01:28:42.660 when the

01:28:42.980 policy is no

01:28:43.760 longer top

01:28:45.360 down, will

01:28:46.800 it actually

01:28:48.020 last in a

01:28:48.980 grassroots sense?

01:28:50.200 That's one.

01:28:51.000 And then I

01:28:51.400 talked to an

01:28:51.960 Indonesian

01:28:52.500 major religious

01:28:54.000 figure, and

01:28:56.040 he said that

01:28:56.900 we have

01:28:58.260 aspirations as

01:28:59.560 a government,

01:29:00.220 as Muslim

01:29:01.200 organizations in

01:29:02.320 Indonesia, to

01:29:03.580 engage in

01:29:04.160 de-radicalization

01:29:05.060 and to

01:29:06.280 normalize

01:29:06.900 relations with

01:29:07.600 Israel.

01:29:08.640 But because

01:29:09.600 we're a

01:29:09.920 democracy, unlike

01:29:11.000 parts of the

01:29:12.100 Arab world and

01:29:13.020 the Gulf, we

01:29:13.940 can't do the

01:29:14.660 top-down

01:29:15.100 approach.

01:29:16.300 We're elected

01:29:16.980 and our

01:29:18.220 constituencies are

01:29:21.260 susceptible to

01:29:22.120 this radicalization

01:29:23.160 when it comes to

01:29:23.880 the Israel issue

01:29:24.780 and when it

01:29:25.200 comes to

01:29:25.820 normalizing

01:29:26.720 Indonesian

01:29:27.260 relations with

01:29:29.160 Israel.

01:29:29.960 So the

01:29:31.180 other thing is

01:29:31.800 that I

01:29:32.480 talked to

01:29:33.140 just three

01:29:35.060 days ago a

01:29:35.680 very senior

01:29:36.460 Egyptian

01:29:36.900 official who

01:29:37.980 described to

01:29:39.080 me the

01:29:40.520 de-radicalization

01:29:42.120 of Egypt after

01:29:43.400 the 2013

01:29:44.900 overthrow of the

01:29:45.840 Muslim

01:29:46.060 Brotherhood and

01:29:47.860 how people in

01:29:49.280 Egypt,

01:29:49.760 unfortunately,

01:29:50.980 fortunately,

01:29:51.840 rather,

01:29:52.060 turned against

01:29:53.840 the Islamism

01:29:54.780 of the

01:29:55.220 Muslim

01:29:55.460 Brotherhood.

01:29:56.040 They turned

01:29:56.520 against the

01:29:57.300 instability that

01:29:58.240 came with it.

01:29:59.500 And part of

01:30:00.880 the de-radicalization

01:30:01.860 in Egypt wasn't

01:30:02.820 just prosperity

01:30:03.800 and progress,

01:30:04.740 but it was

01:30:05.300 about the

01:30:05.700 Egyptian nation

01:30:06.640 and nationalism

01:30:07.460 and progress

01:30:08.480 and protecting

01:30:09.140 the Egyptian

01:30:10.080 state.

01:30:11.600 He said,

01:30:12.280 unfortunately,

01:30:12.920 a lot of that

01:30:13.540 has been reversed

01:30:14.600 since October 7.

01:30:15.780 He said the

01:30:16.480 death and

01:30:16.900 destruction in

01:30:17.620 Gaza and the

01:30:18.900 Egyptian state

01:30:19.780 and its security

01:30:20.720 apparatus and

01:30:21.480 its political

01:30:22.120 and diplomatic

01:30:22.780 apparatuses are

01:30:23.900 struggling to

01:30:24.900 contain the

01:30:25.720 boiling within

01:30:27.340 Egyptian society

01:30:28.500 whereby years

01:30:30.920 worth of using

01:30:32.180 al-Azhar and

01:30:33.380 the religious

01:30:33.960 institutions,

01:30:35.580 in part organically,

01:30:37.360 in part top

01:30:38.140 down, you make

01:30:40.020 progress, but it

01:30:41.740 gets undone by

01:30:43.920 political events

01:30:45.000 or by the

01:30:45.620 horrors that are

01:30:46.200 happening in Gaza.

01:30:46.880 I've talked to

01:30:47.960 Jewish partners

01:30:48.660 and friends here

01:30:49.680 in New York

01:30:50.560 who engaged in

01:30:51.920 a whole host of

01:30:52.980 interfaith communication

01:30:55.020 and dialogue with

01:30:56.040 the Muslim community

01:30:57.000 and they felt

01:30:58.740 utterly betrayed

01:31:00.040 and disillusioned

01:31:01.360 when October 7

01:31:02.220 happened and

01:31:03.520 not one of the

01:31:04.980 Muslim leaders

01:31:06.080 within New York

01:31:07.060 City came out

01:31:07.980 and said anything

01:31:08.940 to acknowledge the

01:31:10.600 humanity of

01:31:11.300 Israeli hostages

01:31:12.200 or Israeli victims

01:31:13.500 of October 7

01:31:14.600 and they were

01:31:16.540 questioning, like

01:31:17.440 I've spent years

01:31:18.580 of my life

01:31:19.300 working on this

01:31:20.120 interfaith work

01:31:21.720 and October 7

01:31:23.180 in a sense

01:31:23.840 shattered it.

01:31:25.100 And so that's

01:31:26.060 like this

01:31:26.860 conflict, the

01:31:28.640 massacre on

01:31:29.440 October 7

01:31:30.000 and the horrendous

01:31:31.240 war that followed

01:31:32.140 afterwards

01:31:32.800 is presenting

01:31:34.460 never seen

01:31:35.320 before trends

01:31:36.280 of radicalization

01:31:37.880 of the

01:31:39.680 tensions rising

01:31:40.900 and the

01:31:41.340 temperatures rising

01:31:42.320 in between

01:31:42.960 different communities

01:31:44.060 of nation-states

01:31:46.260 having a hard

01:31:46.940 time quelling

01:31:48.200 internal dissent.

01:31:49.580 The Jordanians

01:31:50.320 are struggling

01:31:50.880 just like the

01:31:51.560 Egyptians

01:31:51.920 with containing

01:31:53.820 their populations

01:31:54.760 right on the

01:31:55.320 borders.

01:31:56.440 And I don't

01:31:57.520 know what

01:31:58.200 the long-term

01:31:58.860 answer is to

01:31:59.660 that beyond

01:32:00.540 of course

01:32:01.240 agreeing that

01:32:02.040 there needs

01:32:02.580 to be

01:32:03.000 de-radicalization

01:32:04.440 but that will

01:32:05.600 only work

01:32:06.920 if it is

01:32:07.880 coupled with

01:32:08.660 progress on

01:32:09.680 the ground

01:32:10.140 to show that

01:32:11.300 basically

01:32:12.100 de-radicalization

01:32:13.160 gives you

01:32:14.100 better life.

01:32:15.200 It's a

01:32:15.440 positive

01:32:15.880 transformation

01:32:16.440 and more

01:32:17.580 importantly

01:32:18.100 it has to

01:32:18.920 be matched

01:32:19.480 with a

01:32:19.980 broader

01:32:20.540 renaissance

01:32:22.200 that transforms

01:32:23.720 the mindset

01:32:24.560 of the

01:32:25.280 Palestinian people

01:32:26.260 in Gaza

01:32:26.900 to think

01:32:27.520 we're going

01:32:28.700 to invest

01:32:29.460 all of our

01:32:30.700 time and

01:32:31.140 resources

01:32:31.580 into turning

01:32:32.420 this into

01:32:33.040 the pride

01:32:33.600 and joy

01:32:34.120 of the

01:32:34.820 Palestinian

01:32:35.240 people

01:32:35.660 and I

01:32:36.200 want to be

01:32:36.680 a part of

01:32:37.080 that.

01:32:37.300 There are

01:32:37.600 numerous

01:32:37.980 people that

01:32:38.500 are 50

01:32:38.960 times smarter

01:32:39.640 than me

01:32:40.140 who want

01:32:40.960 to be a

01:32:41.360 part of

01:32:41.620 that.

01:32:42.880 Unfortunately

01:32:43.320 in the

01:32:43.880 short term

01:32:44.440 it is

01:32:44.860 hopeless

01:32:45.300 in the

01:32:45.760 sense

01:32:45.980 that I

01:32:46.380 don't know

01:32:46.640 how long

01:32:47.000 this war

01:32:47.360 is going

01:32:47.580 to go

01:32:47.800 on.

01:32:48.420 Hamas

01:32:48.840 is a

01:32:50.520 deadly

01:32:50.820 menace

01:32:51.200 and it's

01:32:51.500 going to

01:32:51.720 fight on

01:32:52.180 to the

01:32:52.480 last

01:32:52.800 Gazan

01:32:53.280 and that's

01:32:54.960 where I

01:32:55.280 don't think

01:32:55.920 some of

01:32:56.280 those

01:32:56.440 improvements

01:32:56.980 I think

01:32:58.220 we need

01:32:58.500 to start

01:32:58.880 acting now

01:32:59.700 and not

01:33:00.220 wait for

01:33:00.880 this end

01:33:01.900 of the

01:33:02.220 war

01:33:02.580 which might

01:33:03.460 go on

01:33:04.760 for another

01:33:05.140 year

01:33:05.500 particularly

01:33:06.240 if the

01:33:07.620 results of

01:33:08.360 the US

01:33:08.720 election

01:33:09.180 sway one

01:33:09.940 direction

01:33:10.620 or another

01:33:11.160 that could

01:33:12.120 very much

01:33:12.880 have a

01:33:13.400 serious

01:33:13.840 impact

01:33:14.380 on the

01:33:15.000 war in

01:33:15.420 Gaza

01:33:15.680 could also

01:33:16.800 open up

01:33:17.520 opportunities

01:33:18.220 for some

01:33:18.800 to do

01:33:19.200 more of

01:33:19.720 the direct

01:33:20.260 confrontation

01:33:21.380 with Iran

01:33:22.080 and that

01:33:22.920 may prove

01:33:23.480 advantageous

01:33:24.280 it may be

01:33:25.020 a disaster

01:33:25.640 but I

01:33:26.460 don't think

01:33:27.180 we should

01:33:28.460 wait until

01:33:29.180 the end

01:33:29.520 of the

01:33:29.780 war

01:33:30.080 to start

01:33:31.000 improving

01:33:31.580 the realities

01:33:32.320 on the

01:33:32.720 ground

01:33:32.940 for people

01:33:33.360 in Gaza

01:33:33.800 to have

01:33:34.520 these safe

01:33:35.060 zones

01:33:35.440 to have

01:33:36.020 these

01:33:36.260 clusters

01:33:36.680 because

01:33:37.360 then

01:33:37.880 the

01:33:38.440 community

01:33:38.860 can

01:33:39.220 formally

01:33:40.100 feel

01:33:40.460 safe

01:33:40.820 and

01:33:40.980 protected

01:33:41.340 from

01:33:41.980 Hamas

01:33:42.380 then

01:33:42.940 they

01:33:43.160 can

01:33:43.380 potentially

01:33:43.940 give

01:33:44.240 intelligence

01:33:44.780 and

01:33:45.040 information

01:33:45.500 if they

01:33:45.820 know

01:33:45.940 anything

01:33:46.320 about

01:33:46.840 the

01:33:46.980 remaining

01:33:47.260 hostages

01:33:47.800 then we

01:33:48.680 can see

01:33:49.180 the emergence

01:33:49.840 of organic

01:33:50.680 leadership

01:33:51.220 in these

01:33:51.800 clusters

01:33:52.280 that could

01:33:53.300 prevent

01:33:53.760 Hamas

01:33:54.140 from coming

01:33:54.560 into their

01:33:55.000 neighborhoods

01:33:55.360 that could

01:33:56.080 prevent

01:33:56.540 Hamas

01:33:57.080 from

01:33:57.320 reconstituting

01:33:58.120 as a

01:33:58.440 government

01:33:58.780 and that

01:33:59.500 could

01:33:59.700 protect

01:34:00.240 guys

01:34:00.760 like me

01:34:01.340 I mean

01:34:01.800 you think

01:34:02.400 I think

01:34:02.920 I don't

01:34:03.500 think

01:34:03.680 I

01:34:03.940 some people

01:34:04.820 are like

01:34:05.100 oh you're

01:34:05.560 so courageous

01:34:06.160 you're so

01:34:06.580 this and that

01:34:07.360 it's like dude

01:34:07.820 I'm in the

01:34:08.480 United States

01:34:09.100 okay like

01:34:09.700 I have the

01:34:10.140 ability to

01:34:10.700 speak my

01:34:11.080 mind

01:34:11.260 imagine being

01:34:12.420 an Ahmad

01:34:12.960 in Gaza

01:34:13.560 right now

01:34:14.100 and there

01:34:14.800 are many

01:34:15.420 many many

01:34:16.360 Ahmads

01:34:16.840 that message

01:34:17.420 me on a

01:34:17.940 regular

01:34:18.200 basis

01:34:18.620 so

01:34:19.220 while it's

01:34:20.560 depressing

01:34:21.020 on one hand

01:34:21.740 that my

01:34:22.200 life expectancy

01:34:23.040 might not be

01:34:23.940 that high

01:34:24.400 because of

01:34:24.860 the work

01:34:25.160 that I'm

01:34:25.420 doing

01:34:25.680 it is also

01:34:26.920 inspiring

01:34:27.520 that

01:34:27.980 there are

01:34:29.880 enough of

01:34:30.500 me

01:34:30.760 and with

01:34:31.320 enough of

01:34:31.860 a critical

01:34:32.320 mass

01:34:32.920 they'll

01:34:33.980 take me

01:34:34.440 out

01:34:34.620 they'll

01:34:34.840 take

01:34:35.080 10 other

01:34:35.800 guys out

01:34:36.260 but there'll

01:34:36.660 still be

01:34:37.240 enough of

01:34:37.800 a base

01:34:38.200 there

01:34:38.520 that moves

01:34:39.420 the needle

01:34:39.800 on this

01:34:40.240 issue

01:34:40.500 in favor

01:34:41.120 of a

01:34:41.640 prosperous

01:34:42.360 Gaza

01:34:42.760 Ahmed

01:34:43.900 it's been

01:34:44.320 an absolute

01:34:44.980 pleasure

01:34:45.320 thank you

01:34:45.700 so much

01:34:46.100 for coming

01:34:46.400 on the

01:34:46.620 show

01:34:46.760 we wish

01:34:47.080 you

01:34:47.280 all the

01:34:47.760 very best

01:34:48.280 with your

01:34:48.660 endeavors

01:34:49.040 and fight

01:34:49.600 the good

01:34:49.900 fight

01:34:50.160 before we

01:34:51.180 move on

01:34:51.580 to

01:34:51.720 Substack

01:34:52.260 where

01:34:52.600 our

01:34:53.360 supporters

01:34:53.720 get to

01:34:54.240 ask

01:34:54.580 their

01:34:54.880 questions

01:34:55.360 to you

01:34:55.720 we always

01:34:56.440 end on

01:34:56.740 the final

01:34:57.100 question

01:34:57.500 which is

01:34:58.020 what's

01:34:58.600 the one

01:34:58.820 thing

01:34:58.980 we're not

01:34:59.300 talking

01:34:59.660 about

01:34:59.880 as a

01:35:00.280 society

01:35:00.680 that we

01:35:00.980 really

01:35:01.200 should

01:35:01.400 be

01:35:01.620 I think

01:35:02.680 we're not

01:35:03.120 talking

01:35:03.540 enough

01:35:03.960 about

01:35:04.400 the

01:35:05.340 moderate

01:35:06.000 Palestinians

01:35:06.780 and Arabs

01:35:07.500 and Muslims

01:35:08.100 that exist

01:35:08.680 we see

01:35:09.180 so much

01:35:10.100 of the

01:35:10.880 radical

01:35:11.260 elements

01:35:11.860 we see

01:35:12.280 so many

01:35:12.740 of the

01:35:13.000 loud

01:35:13.240 voices

01:35:13.660 we're

01:35:14.520 not

01:35:14.940 talking

01:35:15.460 about

01:35:15.960 the fact

01:35:16.540 that

01:35:16.840 just

01:35:17.140 statistically

01:35:17.820 it's

01:35:18.940 impossible

01:35:19.380 that all

01:35:19.920 Arabs

01:35:20.180 or all

01:35:20.460 Palestinians

01:35:20.800 or all

01:35:21.220 Muslims

01:35:21.440 or all

01:35:21.840 pro-Palestine

01:35:22.400 people

01:35:22.680 are radical

01:35:23.180 there are

01:35:24.100 others

01:35:24.640 out there

01:35:25.300 like me

01:35:26.040 who

01:35:27.280 unfortunately

01:35:27.960 like when I

01:35:28.640 talk to

01:35:29.080 big

01:35:29.660 major

01:35:30.100 media

01:35:30.460 outlets

01:35:30.960 I mean

01:35:32.700 I've been

01:35:33.540 published

01:35:33.920 in a lot

01:35:34.300 of them

01:35:34.480 but I'm

01:35:35.380 not very

01:35:36.120 sexy

01:35:36.520 like if

01:35:36.900 I said

01:35:37.460 I'm like

01:35:38.340 healing

01:35:38.840 and reconciliation

01:35:39.700 and I lost

01:35:40.660 my family

01:35:41.200 members

01:35:41.600 I'm pissed

01:35:42.120 at Israel

01:35:42.660 but I don't

01:35:43.300 want to

01:35:43.580 annihilate

01:35:44.700 Israel

01:35:44.960 I believe

01:35:45.480 in Israel's

01:35:46.000 right to

01:35:46.320 exist

01:35:46.560 I want to

01:35:46.920 make peace

01:35:47.400 with the

01:35:47.660 Israelis

01:35:48.020 for some

01:35:49.840 people

01:35:50.140 that's

01:35:50.460 inspiring

01:35:50.880 but if

01:35:51.300 I were

01:35:51.620 like

01:35:51.940 Israel

01:35:52.800 killed

01:35:53.160 my family

01:35:53.700 and I

01:35:54.000 will seek

01:35:54.460 revenge

01:35:54.900 and they

01:35:55.240 will never

01:35:55.640 know

01:35:55.860 peace

01:35:56.140 in my

01:35:56.360 life

01:35:56.460 like

01:35:56.860 I'm

01:35:57.460 willing

01:35:57.680 to bet

01:35:58.060 you

01:35:58.220 that the

01:35:58.560 New York

01:35:58.780 Times

01:35:59.060 would run

01:35:59.480 that op-ed

01:36:00.020 of mine

01:36:00.580 but when

01:36:01.180 I submit

01:36:01.820 an op-ed

01:36:02.580 saying

01:36:03.080 Israel

01:36:03.760 killed

01:36:04.120 my family

01:36:04.720 and I

01:36:05.200 want peace

01:36:05.700 and coexistence

01:36:06.600 that's not

01:36:08.920 going to

01:36:09.140 click

01:36:09.380 you know

01:36:09.700 there are

01:36:10.380 many like

01:36:10.920 me

01:36:11.200 here in

01:36:11.960 America

01:36:12.400 and our

01:36:13.540 Jewish

01:36:13.900 allies

01:36:14.300 and brothers

01:36:14.760 and sisters

01:36:15.340 our

01:36:15.820 non-Jewish

01:36:17.020 friends

01:36:17.460 policymakers

01:36:18.640 media outlets

01:36:20.040 like we

01:36:20.400 should seek

01:36:20.960 them out

01:36:21.300 we should

01:36:21.640 empower

01:36:22.200 them

01:36:22.440 we should

01:36:22.740 we're not

01:36:23.380 talking enough

01:36:24.280 about them

01:36:24.760 because we're

01:36:25.320 so like

01:36:26.000 oh they're

01:36:26.740 flying Hamas

01:36:27.380 flag

01:36:27.700 oh this

01:36:28.240 is so

01:36:28.540 repulsive

01:36:28.960 we're

01:36:29.440 focused

01:36:29.980 on talking

01:36:30.440 about the

01:36:30.880 radicals

01:36:31.600 but forgetting

01:36:32.240 that just

01:36:32.960 statistically

01:36:33.760 they might

01:36:34.620 not be

01:36:34.980 outspoken

01:36:35.460 but there

01:36:35.800 are plenty

01:36:36.400 of moderate

01:36:37.020 voices

01:36:37.380 and those

01:36:38.160 are the ones

01:36:38.580 that we

01:36:38.840 need to

01:36:39.180 elevate

01:36:39.520 make it

01:36:40.560 sexy

01:36:40.960 to be

01:36:41.360 moderate

01:36:41.800 make it

01:36:42.500 appealing

01:36:44.480 and attractive

01:36:45.120 to be a

01:36:45.700 moderate

01:36:45.960 make moderates

01:36:46.700 great again

01:36:47.200 exactly

01:36:47.940 well that's

01:36:48.660 why we wanted

01:36:49.160 to have you

01:36:49.620 on it's been

01:36:50.020 a real pleasure

01:36:50.560 head on over

01:36:51.300 to Substack

01:36:51.920 to hear

01:36:52.260 Ahmed answer

01:36:52.960 your questions

01:36:53.720 how dangerous

01:36:56.560 is it to exist

01:36:57.320 as a Palestinian

01:36:58.060 in Gaza

01:36:58.660 while harboring

01:36:59.840 anti-Hamas

01:37:00.440 views

01:37:00.880 and

01:37:01.880 and this is

01:37:02.580 the important

01:37:03.000 bit

01:37:03.220 what is your

01:37:03.700 best guess

01:37:04.300 as to the

01:37:04.820 percentage

01:37:05.240 of the

01:37:05.620 population

01:37:06.200 that is

01:37:06.840 in that

01:37:07.260 camp

TRIGGERnometry - November 24, 2024

Israel Killed My Family But I Want Peace - Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib

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