TRIGGERnometry - Israel⧸Palestine： Asking The Questions No One Else Will

00:00:00.960 In the case of Ukraine, they estimate 500 children killed in two years.

00:00:07.840 In the case of Gaza, 15,006 months.

00:00:13.280 The people in charge of Gaza could have handed over the hostages by now,

00:00:17.100 could have surrendered the terrorists who committed the atrocities on October 7th,

00:00:20.960 and this would all be over.

00:00:22.700 Let's say Hamas did do what you said.

00:00:25.400 What would happen?

00:00:27.140 The people of Gaza, half of whom are children,

00:00:30.000 will be confined in that same concentration camp.

00:00:33.920 Probably it'll be more brutal than ever.

00:00:37.240 We're missing a part of the puzzle here, which is also Iran.

00:00:41.120 Iran could say we didn't know they were going to do that.

00:00:43.760 No, they didn't know. It's factually true.

00:00:45.660 Come on.

00:00:47.440 Professor Norman Finkelstein, great to have you on the show.

00:00:50.220 We've been trying to make this happen for a little while.

00:00:52.740 Thanks for coming on.

00:00:53.720 One of the things we talked about before we started was our Bassem Yusuf interview.

00:00:59.100 We'll talk about your frustrations, about how that went.

00:01:02.080 But the first thing we wanted to do is do something that people often don't have a chance to do,

00:01:06.760 which is kind of talk about what informs their views on things.

00:01:10.940 And in your case, one of the things that you've talked about is both of your parents were in concentration camps in Nazi Germany,

00:01:18.000 or put there by Nazi Germany, at least.

00:01:20.600 And you talk about how that informs your views now in supporting the Palestinians.

00:01:27.980 But tell us a little bit about your family history.

00:01:31.360 Both of my parents were from Warsaw.

00:01:33.540 My mother, I guess her father owned a tobacco store, and she had a very good education.

00:01:40.760 She went to a Jewish private school.

00:01:43.420 She knew Latin, and she knew classical music.

00:01:46.580 She knew math.

00:01:48.540 When I say new math, not just addition, subtraction.

00:01:52.760 She studied at Warsaw University, as she put it, the mathematics faculty.

00:01:59.500 It only lasted about two years before the war broke out.

00:02:03.960 And she told me that it was impossible to study because the Jews in the lecture halls,

00:02:10.180 they had to not sit, but they had to stand in a certain place.

00:02:14.540 And at the end of the lectures, the Polish fascists would beat them up.

00:02:20.060 If you ever saw the film Julia, Julia was with Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Fonda.

00:02:27.220 And it had a real resonance for me, because if you remember the film,

00:02:32.360 and probably won't remember the details, Julia loses her leg,

00:02:38.640 the Vanessa Redgrave character, loses her leg in a melee in an Austrian college,

00:02:44.540 where the fascists attack the Jews in the lecture hall.

00:02:53.840 And it was the exact description that my mother told me growing up

00:02:57.340 about what it was like in the university.

00:03:00.160 Anyhow, she had a wonderful carefree life, as she describes it.

00:03:03.680 She was a fascist, she said, that totally supported Piłsudski in Poland.

00:03:09.420 And she was president of her class, of her class and president of her school.

00:03:15.080 And by all accounts that I heard, she was very, very smart.

00:03:19.840 My father, his father owned a lumber mill, I was told.

00:03:25.600 And he and my mother were both in the Warsaw Ghetto from 1940, I think, to 1943.

00:03:36.520 The ghetto was gradually constructed.

00:03:40.640 And then in April 1943 was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

00:03:45.320 Neither of my parents were in the uprising.

00:03:47.620 I want that to be clear.

00:03:49.500 I don't want to misrepresent their past and make it glorious, where it's not warranted.

00:03:55.680 The survivors, the estimates are between 20,000 and 40,000 Jews survived the uprising.

00:04:01.980 And they were deported to Meishtenek concentration camp.

00:04:06.220 Both of my parents were deported there.

00:04:09.040 Now, they did not, they apparently knew of each other before the war, but I don't know the exact details.

00:04:18.440 What I do remember is, after the war, pictures of my mother's family survived.

00:04:26.640 Because my mother's mother had a sister in the United States.

00:04:32.560 And before the war, she sent pictures.

00:04:34.540 So, I have still, it was on the family wall, I kept the pictures, and they are now above my piano in my living room.

00:04:42.780 Those pictures survived.

00:04:44.600 No pictures of my father's family survived.

00:04:47.300 Nothing.

00:04:48.660 And in the Warsaw Ghetto, my mother saw my father's sister in the distance.

00:04:57.780 She had thick blonde hair, and she was wearing white boots.

00:05:01.780 And periodically, during the marriage, my father would assume this very tense pose.

00:05:14.000 And he would tell, he would say to my mother, tell me what she looked like.

00:05:19.420 Tell me what she looked like.

00:05:23.720 Because it was the only visual connection with his family.

00:05:29.020 My father, as I said, there were the pictures.

00:05:33.100 But on both sides, every member was exterminated.

00:05:37.520 My father, when I wrote my first book, I wanted, of course, dedicated to my parents.

00:05:43.600 And I also wanted to say something about their past.

00:05:49.120 And I asked my mother, in what camps were my father?

00:05:54.660 I knew my father was in Auschwitz because he had a number, and only if you were in Auschwitz did you have the number.

00:05:59.760 So, I said, in what camps?

00:06:01.360 So, I said, I dedicated to my father, Warsaw Ghetto, Auschwitz.

00:06:05.400 And my mother told me, no, your father was in seven concentration camps.

00:06:10.720 I didn't know.

00:06:12.160 I know he ended up in Auschwitz, and he was in the Auschwitz death march.

00:06:16.780 My mother ended up in two slave labor camps.

00:06:20.940 And the thing that they always, what was part of their, so to speak, resume, my mother would always say, I was liberated by the Russians, and my father was liberated by the Americans.

00:06:36.320 And then they ended up in the, what were called DP, displaced people camps in Linz, Austria.

00:06:43.720 And that's where they met, that's where they married, and that's where they left.

00:06:49.600 My father was in the socialist Zionist youth group called Hashomer Hatzayer.

00:06:56.700 And my mother was, both of my parents, till the last dying days, they were fervent Stalinists.

00:07:04.320 I mean, long after the Soviet Union, the Communist Party had put that chapter behind them, beginning with the Khrushchev speech, that was, that did not happen to my parents.

00:07:16.040 Now, as I said, they were very smart.

00:07:19.920 However, they looked at the world through the lens of the Nazi Holocaust.

00:07:23.860 That was sort of the beginning and the end, you know, that was being there at the creation.

00:07:30.340 And it was the Nazi Holocaust.

00:07:32.740 And so far as they were concerned, and factually, it's correct, I'm fully prepared to go toe-to-toe with you.

00:07:40.600 And it was the Soviet Union that defeated the Nazis, and that's all they cared about.

00:07:44.980 Well, I'm from the Soviet Union, so the fact that the Soviet Union, I mean, four out of every five German soldiers who died on the battlefield died on the Eastern Front.

00:07:53.260 So the fact that the Soviet Union, together with the United States and the British Empire, worked together to destroy Nazism.

00:07:59.920 Well, I don't agree with it together, except as a cameo role in defeating the Nazis.

00:08:05.300 That's my opinion, but we're not going to get into an argument.

00:08:08.060 We'll get into that argument after the interview, because I've got a lot of beef with you on that.

00:08:12.940 But that was how my parents viewed it, and Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union.

00:08:17.760 So you could not criticize Stalin.

00:08:20.080 And if you did, even I became a Maoist, and as you know, the Soviets and the Chinese were at loggerheads, more than loggerheads.

00:08:29.680 And I would sometimes make some criticism of Russia, and my parents would become utterly livid, livid.

00:08:38.560 And, you know, for them, the worst thing to say about somebody, the worst epithet, was to call them a traitor.

00:08:46.920 And anybody who criticized the Soviet Union in their minds was a traitor.

00:08:52.420 So I had to walk on eggshells whenever we had discussions.

00:08:55.960 I had to sort of compartmentalize my Maoism at home.

00:08:59.440 Well, let's not focus on World War II debate.

00:09:03.700 We can do that another time.

00:09:05.460 The reason I asked you about your family background is you have talked about the fact that it informs your views of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

00:09:15.160 What does that mean exactly?

00:09:16.820 How are your views on that shaped by your family history?

00:09:19.980 Well, there are two aspects.

00:09:25.360 Number one, there is a distinction between having an intelligent discussion of something and intellectualizing something.

00:09:38.800 Now, that distinction might sound like hair splitting or parsing, but it's part of my total being.

00:09:46.220 Namely, when you're talking about death, when you're talking about destruction, when you're talking about war, yes, you have to make a rational argument.

00:09:59.540 You have to persuade through reason, facts, logic.

00:10:04.940 However, there is always the danger that you start to intellectualize the discussion or the conversation, as it's called nowadays.

00:10:15.860 You start to intellectualize it, and you lose sight of what's at stake.

00:10:22.700 So, to give you a concrete example, during the 1960s and 70s, there was a very famous program in New York called Firing Line, and the host was the national conservative, William Buckley.

00:10:42.640 And Buckley would have on guests, often of the radical left.

00:10:48.760 It was actually a quite open program.

00:10:51.440 So, you would have the Black Panthers on, you would have the famous radical lawyer, William Kunstler on, and you would have Noam Chomsky on.

00:10:59.320 And when he would have some liberal opponents of the war in Vietnam, liberal opponents of the war in Vietnam, say, John Kenneth Galbraith, very famous economist of our day, of my day, or Allard Lowenstein, who's less well-known.

00:11:19.320 They would argue about the war, argue about the war, argue about the war, competing facts, and then at the end, they would stand up and give each other a bear hug.

00:11:35.940 And my mother was mortified.

00:11:40.820 Where is the moral core behind what you're talking about?

00:11:48.340 We're talking about death.

00:11:50.740 We're talking about destruction.

00:11:53.800 The estimates are about 3 million Vietnamese were killed.

00:11:57.360 Forget about Laotians and Cambodians.

00:12:02.540 And, you know, the scenes were horrible daily, because they were actually televised every night in the news.

00:12:11.980 And to hug the person.

00:12:14.080 And so, yes, to facts, logic, reason, you have to persuade.

00:12:23.560 But you have to always be cognizant.

00:12:28.000 It can't just be at the back of your mind.

00:12:30.800 It has to be in the foreground of your mind.

00:12:34.640 What we're talking about, we're talking about snuffing out life.

00:12:40.040 And that, to me, was very important.

00:12:44.380 I try not to exaggerate, but many of my statements sound as if they're hyperbolic.

00:12:52.020 It was typical in my generation to watch the nightly news, either what was called ABC News, NBC News, or CBS News.

00:13:01.000 I could still tell you the anchors on each program, because they were so deeply imprinted in our minds.

00:13:07.160 CBS was, of course, Walter Cronkite.

00:13:10.020 And NBC was what was called Huntley and Brinkley.

00:13:14.800 And everyone watched the news, nightly news.

00:13:17.120 And the top story would always be the war in Vietnam, okay?

00:13:22.540 And when the scenes came out, when the scenes appeared on the screen of the war in Vietnam, my mother would go like this.

00:13:34.020 Tell me when it's over.

00:13:36.400 Tell me when it's over.

00:13:37.820 She could physically not look at it.

00:13:40.380 She was not an emotive person.

00:13:42.280 Not at all.

00:13:43.520 And she was not theatrical.

00:13:44.820 She was the real deal of what you sewers, what you got.

00:13:52.000 But she couldn't physically look at it.

00:13:55.260 And so you could say, and I'm willing to grant, there was a hysterical element to how she reacted to war.

00:14:06.220 But others might say that's a normal human reaction.

00:14:10.920 And if you don't react hysterically, there's something wrong with you.

00:14:18.240 That's, you can debate it.

00:14:20.580 And so I also remember when I was in high school, I was in debate society.

00:14:29.540 The debating team, it was called.

00:14:31.100 And the premise of the debating team is you have to learn to argue effectively on both sides.

00:14:38.140 It was just a flip of the coin where you're going to be pro-proposition or anti-proposition.

00:14:43.920 And my mother was very, very disdainful of that.

00:14:49.680 She says, that teaches you to be duplicitous and two-faced.

00:14:53.260 So the moral, the passionate side, even though they were very smart, my parents, the moral and the passionate side came from my parents and my own being.

00:15:10.660 And then later in life, you could say I came under the tutelage of Professor Chomsky.

00:15:20.340 And he became my mentor.

00:15:23.640 And I think it's fair to say, to the extent that he had friends, I was a close family friend.

00:15:30.840 I was close to him and I was close to his wife, probably closer to his wife than him because with his wife I could have.

00:15:38.660 So I could talk about the real world.

00:15:42.160 I should say the mundane world, the mundane world.

00:15:45.400 Norman, let me, sorry to interrupt.

00:15:47.000 Let me just move it closer to the Israel and Palestine thing because what I'm really asking you is, I should have said it like this when I started.

00:15:55.200 Most people would think that with two parents who are Holocaust survivors, whose entire families were wiped out in the Holocaust, you would be on the side of the Jewish state, so to speak.

00:16:06.640 And the thing that people find difficult about your position, particularly in the Jewish, Jews do, among other people, of course, is that to them inexplicable contrast.

00:16:19.440 How do you explain that?

00:16:21.020 I would say there are two aspects to it.

00:16:26.420 The first aspect to it is that I grew up in a home where there was never any particular identification with the state of Israel.

00:16:34.560 That's just, yes, it's true.

00:16:36.020 My father was in Hashemir Hatzayir.

00:16:38.120 But by the time I came into the world, that was in the past.

00:16:42.300 And my parents didn't inculcate in us any special affection for the state of Israel.

00:16:54.500 And to speak honestly, even though my parents were resolutely Jewish in their being, in their being, their gestures, their, you know, even taking pride in intellectual achievement and all those sort of impalpable ways they were resolutely Jewish.

00:17:15.900 I can't say we were raised in a consciously Jewish home, consciously Jewish, first of all, because God was an anathema.

00:17:26.100 The notion of God was an anathema in my home.

00:17:28.660 And I wasn't bar mitzvahed, which was in my neighborhood, it was, it was devastating because bar mitzvah was like a coming out party for the non-Jewish world.

00:17:45.980 And it's where you display the family wealth, the family achievement, and all of that sort of stuff.

00:17:53.120 And it wasn't even a question in my home.

00:17:56.140 It's not like I went up to my parents and said, why aren't I being bar mitzvahed?

00:17:59.280 You don't even ask the question.

00:18:01.220 It was just not part of the range of thought.

00:18:04.640 It's a funny story.

00:18:06.460 I was born in December.

00:18:08.640 So all of my friends are having their bar mitzvahs.

00:18:11.380 They're having their bar mitzvahs.

00:18:12.420 And I had to come up with an excuse why eventually it came to December, why I have a bar mitzvah.

00:18:21.620 And my excuse was, I'm having my bar mitzvah in Israel.

00:18:26.840 So Zionism came in handy.

00:18:32.140 So there was that aspect that I didn't grow up in a home that you would call conventionally Jewish.

00:18:38.960 And the second aspect is, and I know this is going to sound a little bit pious and abstract.

00:18:45.480 At the beginning, it's true.

00:18:50.380 And I try to be as candid and truthful as it can be.

00:18:55.700 Yes, the Jewish omen came into play because, remember, I was involved in this conflict at a time where very few Jews were.

00:19:03.500 I go back to the 1970s and 1982 with the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

00:19:09.860 And so being Jewish was an asset to the cause.

00:19:13.420 And so as it were, and I don't like to use the word, but it seems like it's plausible, advertising your Jewishness in this cause was helpful.

00:19:25.560 But over time, you could say a kind of, over time, a kind of moral refinement set in.

00:19:37.420 And I became pretty emphatic.

00:19:41.260 I'm not pro or anti-Israel.

00:19:44.960 I'm not pro or anti-Palestinian.

00:19:48.580 I'm not pro or anti-Arab.

00:19:51.240 And whenever I am described in those terms, in particular when I'm described as pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab, I recoil and I manifest the fact that I'm recalling by always emphasizing I'm pro-truth and I'm pro-justice.

00:20:13.820 I am anti-falsity and I am anti-injustice.

00:20:18.620 That's the only thing that concerns me.

00:20:22.260 If the facts fell on the other side, then I have to go where the truth tells me to go and where justice directs me.

00:20:31.740 And I am very confident that that is, but I acknowledge it took time for me to internalize that, that it's about truth.

00:20:46.140 It's about justice.

00:20:47.380 It's about spending the whole of your adult life, the whole of your adult life, pouring over human rights reports, pouring over legal texts, pouring over books and books and not reading them once.

00:21:10.660 I'm not boasting, I'm speaking factually, and maybe it's nothing to boast about.

00:21:17.200 I have a wonderful friend in the UK, Deborah.

00:21:21.440 Deborah, her father was a very famous Jewish historian, the most famous, Maccabee, and she's the lawyer of Professor Maccabee.

00:21:34.440 And I was reading Jane Eyre again, the first time I read it was in sophomore year in high school.

00:21:43.060 I was rereading it and the prose is just so dazzling.

00:21:48.300 Oh my God, every sentence.

00:21:51.800 Deborah knows English, the English language, she was an Oxford in English, and I was saying, oh, how I wish I had spent my life reading novels like this instead of reading these human rights reports over and over and over again and over and over and over again,

00:22:15.660 trying to find a logic or illogic in the argument, trying to find a logic in the argument, trying to find a logic or illogic in the argument.

00:22:23.600 So, Salomon, come on, Salomon, oh, okay.

00:22:25.620 I'm sorry, just complete the film.

00:22:26.680 Yeah.

00:22:27.340 So, at the end, if it weren't about truth and it weren't about justice, then I would have been, I would have had wasted my whole adult life because that's what I was searching for.

00:22:40.580 I was trying to find the facts, the truth, and follow it.

00:22:47.600 So, long ago, I don't want to deny any aspect of truth where there is.

00:22:55.040 Yes, at the beginning, my quote-unquote Jewishness came into play, but I left that behind quite a long time ago.

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00:23:35.540 So, Norman, what is the truth then?

00:23:39.040 Because you've used those words again and again.

00:23:42.920 It's obvious that truth motivates you.

00:23:45.280 It's obvious that you are motivated when you see injustice, particularly when it comes to this cause.

00:23:50.060 So, let's talk about the facts of what's happening on the ground.

00:23:53.620 What is the truth?

00:23:54.640 When you say what is the truth, or can you just be a little bit more specific, what would you like me to address?

00:24:03.720 I would like you to address what is happening to the Palestinian people on the ground, because one side says one thing, one side says another.

00:24:12.320 And also, as well, like the saying goes, the first casualty in war is the truth.

00:24:18.240 So, let's talk about what we know as far as possible.

00:24:21.520 Okay.

00:24:22.800 I would say a good place to begin, because people always ask, what would you recommend, you know?

00:24:28.780 I would say a good place to begin on the events since October 7th, I would say a good place to begin is the South African application to the International Court of Justice.

00:24:40.760 It runs to about 84 pages, and it's single-spaced with literally hundreds of footnotes, and each footnote has multiple references, sometimes 10 or 15 references.

00:24:55.740 And the references come from what I think are, by consensus, reputable, objective sources.

00:25:04.900 Most of the references, not all, but I would say the overwhelming predominance of references, are to various UN agencies.

00:25:14.580 And the picture they depict, and the picture they depict, and I've read that application several times, in fact, I just recently, a couple of days ago, re-read it for something I'm writing.

00:25:24.980 The picture they depict, first of all, let's begin with the beginning.

00:25:32.600 It's a horrifying picture.

00:25:34.760 I am absolutely astonished.

00:25:37.960 Each time I read it, I have to take a breath.

00:25:40.880 It's not only horrifying in terms of the objective numbers they present, whether it be the number of children killed, the number of children and women combined versus men killed, whether it be the number of bombs dropped in a week,

00:26:02.560 the weight of the weight of the bombs, or whether it be the number of homes that are killed, destroyed, it's not just the numbers, the objective figures.

00:26:18.580 How do you, as Oprah Winfrey would say, wrap your mind around 15,000 children killed?

00:26:26.220 How do you do that?

00:26:27.060 You know, it's not just the numbers, it's the relative numbers, not just the objective.

00:26:35.740 In the case of Ukraine, which I take you, you're familiar with, they estimate 500 children killed in two years.

00:26:44.700 In the case of Gaza, 15,006 months.

00:26:49.620 If you take the density of bombing, it's said that there was more relative destruction in Gaza than in Dresden or Hamburg during World War II.

00:27:06.220 The number of medics killed, the number of journalists killed, the number of whatever number you take,

00:27:16.100 it's in a completely different category, it's in a totally different level.

00:27:26.200 Every article, and I take it you fellows read the British press, they're constantly making the comparisons.

00:27:33.880 I read those articles.

00:27:35.160 They're constantly comparing it with other war zones.

00:27:38.260 More children killed in Gaza in six months than the number of children killed in all the other war zones,

00:27:51.020 all the other war zones in the world over three years multiplied by four.

00:28:00.620 Do you hear what I'm saying?

00:28:02.340 Yes.

00:28:02.960 You know what Gaza is?

00:28:04.620 Gaza is, sometimes people need, I think, to visualize it.

00:28:12.520 Gaza is 25 miles long.

00:28:15.820 It's less than the length of a marathon.

00:28:20.240 It's five miles wide.

00:28:23.260 You know what five miles wide is?

00:28:25.200 What that number resonates for me?

00:28:27.280 I jog every morning at the seashore, call the island seashore, five miles.

00:28:31.280 It's the length of my jog by the distance of a marathon.

00:28:39.680 Half the population, half is children.

00:28:45.880 Half.

00:28:47.780 And 80% are refugees or descendants of refugees.

00:28:54.780 Do you know what that means?

00:28:56.160 In 1948, you lost your homeland.

00:29:00.580 You were expelled from the area that became Israel.

00:29:03.880 And now, according to the last report of the World Bank,

00:29:10.540 300,000 homes have been damaged or destroyed.

00:29:15.240 72% were just destroyed.

00:29:18.460 1.3 million people have nowhere to return.

00:29:27.880 They lost their homelands.

00:29:30.520 And now they lost their homes.

00:29:31.960 You know what it means to lose a home?

00:29:34.300 I don't want to become emotive, but on the other hand,

00:29:38.160 you have to put, give life to the facts.

00:29:44.220 They not only lost their home.

00:29:49.860 They not only lost their block.

00:29:52.760 They not only lost their neighborhood.

00:29:56.400 They lost their city.

00:29:58.480 What does that mean?

00:29:59.980 It means the place has been pulverized.

00:30:07.300 They don't know where to return to.

00:30:10.160 Imagine the block you live on has been ground into dust.

00:30:18.840 That's what happened.

00:30:21.920 That's what happens when you drop these bombs

00:30:24.760 at the density and intensity that Israel has been dropping them.

00:30:31.440 That was a calculated policy.

00:30:34.840 The Israeli officials kept saying,

00:30:42.920 we're going to make Gaza unlivable, uninhabitable.

00:30:51.100 That was a calculated policy.

00:30:53.440 As one of Israel's senior advisors,

00:30:57.240 Diora Eiland, the former head of Israel's National Security Council,

00:31:03.620 he said, we are going to give them two choices,

00:31:08.200 to stay and starve or to leave,

00:31:14.000 to make Gaza uninhabitable,

00:31:18.460 to reduce it to rubble and dust.

00:31:24.460 That's Gaza.

00:31:25.820 And so, looking at the picture,

00:31:33.280 not trying to attach a broader legal label to it,

00:31:41.100 whether to call it genocide or ethnic cleansing,

00:31:45.820 we'll leave the labels aside for a moment,

00:31:49.140 because you ask me, what does Gaza look like?

00:31:51.540 I would say there's very little left in Gaza right now.

00:32:01.000 There really is.

00:32:02.180 There's very little left.

00:32:03.340 The only area which they haven't yet reduced to rubble is Rafa,

00:32:09.600 and that's their goal.

00:32:11.200 They want to turn all of Gaza.

00:32:14.900 Usually, somebody would use here a metaphor like a parking lot.

00:32:19.060 A parking lot doesn't sound right to me,

00:32:21.820 because a parking lot's too peaceful.

00:32:24.460 The image it conjures is too peaceful.

00:32:27.580 I prefer, during the U.S. war in the Philippines,

00:32:32.840 at the turn of the 20th century, 1899, around there,

00:32:37.180 there was an order given by one of the senior generals.

00:32:40.780 He said, there was one province, Luzon province, L-U-Z-O-N.

00:32:46.960 And they said, we're going to turn Luzon province

00:32:50.040 into a howling wilderness.

00:32:54.620 And when I was reading descriptions of Gaza,

00:32:59.380 that's what came to mind,

00:33:01.500 to turn it into a howling wilderness.

00:33:05.360 And that's what's been done.

00:33:06.720 Norman, this is a difficult question to ask,

00:33:10.800 but I feel that it needs to be said.

00:33:14.900 The events of October the 7th were vile, awful,

00:33:19.640 and you cannot justify that in any shape or form.

00:33:24.300 Not to say that you are,

00:33:25.200 I'm just saying that we both agree on that.

00:33:26.840 What should Israel have done afterwards?

00:33:33.620 Because it's, we look at what's happened at Gaza,

00:33:38.080 but what Hamas did was an act of war,

00:33:41.040 and it was barbaric.

00:33:42.920 And Israel had to retaliate in some shape or form.

00:33:46.800 So I guess my question to you is,

00:33:49.060 if you were Benjamin Netanyahu,

00:33:52.920 what would you have done?

00:33:54.460 Okay.

00:33:56.080 I am not going to evade questions.

00:33:58.960 Yeah.

00:34:00.300 So do not take what I'm about to say as a diversion.

00:34:05.620 And you are absolutely free to press me

00:34:09.300 and press me and press me.

00:34:11.840 But I do have to convey how I see the question.

00:34:17.540 Of course.

00:34:18.100 Your question to me has to be preceded

00:34:23.140 by what I would call an antecedent question,

00:34:27.920 which is,

00:34:29.420 what did you expect the people of Gaza to do?

00:34:34.060 What do I mean by that?

00:34:36.440 So...

00:34:37.080 Well, look, let's not get into that for this reason,

00:34:40.460 because in terms of having this discussion,

00:34:43.080 let's accept...

00:34:45.080 Let's accept...

00:34:46.320 When we had Bassamon, for example,

00:34:47.680 this was the nature of the debate we had, right?

00:34:49.500 He was saying,

00:34:50.420 well, what do you expect the Palestinians to do?

00:34:52.440 And I said,

00:34:53.140 let's accept that while they're uprising,

00:34:55.960 as Francis said,

00:34:57.000 you call that, I think, a prison outbreak?

00:35:00.360 Let's accept...

00:35:00.920 Concentration camp.

00:35:01.640 Concentration camp outbreak.

00:35:02.740 Let's say that that's what it is.

00:35:05.020 Nonetheless,

00:35:05.420 the fact is that Israel exists.

00:35:08.240 Israel was attacked in this barbaric way.

00:35:11.360 Let's say that the Palestinians have every cause

00:35:14.080 to try and free themselves in this way.

00:35:20.220 I don't know how killing lots of and raping civilians does that,

00:35:23.180 but let's set that aside.

00:35:26.100 That still leaves the question of

00:35:28.040 what should Israel do in this situation?

00:35:31.180 It still leaves that question on the table.

00:35:32.760 So let's say, without going into the detail,

00:35:35.240 just for time reasons,

00:35:36.460 that we accept everything you say

00:35:38.060 about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

00:35:40.400 Nonetheless, on top of that,

00:35:42.260 what should Israel do in this situation?

00:35:46.280 I have pondered that question.

00:35:48.600 Okay.

00:35:49.240 And I recognize that to say

00:35:53.180 that we should have done nothing

00:35:55.900 except to end the illegal

00:36:00.880 and inhuman

00:36:02.220 a blockade of Gaza,

00:36:06.360 which Richard Goldstone described as

00:36:09.060 elements of a crime against humanity

00:36:12.520 to immure two million people,

00:36:17.260 half of whom are children,

00:36:19.580 in what Israel's head

00:36:21.620 of the National Security Council,

00:36:24.200 Giora Island,

00:36:25.600 described as, quote,

00:36:27.140 a huge concentration camp.

00:36:31.500 What, uh,

00:36:33.080 your British economist,

00:36:35.480 before October 7,

00:36:37.520 he described as,

00:36:39.420 Gaza as a human rubbish heap.

00:36:44.120 The Secretary General of the...

00:36:46.300 Let's say we accept all of this,

00:36:47.980 just for the sake of argument.

00:36:49.100 Let's say we accept all of this.

00:36:51.000 I recognize that question.

00:36:53.340 Okay.

00:36:53.720 So what's the answer?

00:36:54.540 My answer is, first of all,

00:36:58.980 on a one level,

00:37:02.280 it's a little late in the day

00:37:04.780 to be asking that question.

00:37:07.760 But asking it,

00:37:11.060 you can still make the argument

00:37:14.600 that whatever Israel did,

00:37:18.680 whatever Israel did,

00:37:20.800 or excuse me,

00:37:21.340 whatever was done to Israel,

00:37:23.160 excuse me,

00:37:24.720 whatever was done to Israel.

00:37:27.600 If you, for example,

00:37:28.740 look at the South Africa application,

00:37:30.840 it begins by saying,

00:37:32.340 what happened on October 7

00:37:33.660 was horrible,

00:37:34.700 awful, terrible,

00:37:35.880 so on and so forth.

00:37:37.420 It said,

00:37:38.280 and I'm quoting it,

00:37:40.060 paraphrasing,

00:37:41.600 whatever was done to Israel

00:37:44.460 on October 7,

00:37:46.060 nothing whatsoever

00:37:49.760 could justify a genocide.

00:37:53.720 We can talk about that separately,

00:37:55.240 but what should they have done?

00:37:56.540 I don't think it's so easy.

00:37:58.220 That's not answering my question.

00:37:59.520 That's the only reason

00:37:59.980 I'm interrupting you.

00:38:01.120 As I think you've observed,

00:38:02.440 we're fair interviews.

00:38:03.500 We've given you lots of time

00:38:04.760 to answer questions.

00:38:05.500 So my question is,

00:38:08.640 what you've described

00:38:10.100 about what's happening in Gaza,

00:38:12.020 what you've described

00:38:12.880 about happening in Gaza

00:38:13.980 prior to October 7,

00:38:15.140 let's,

00:38:15.680 for the sake of argument,

00:38:16.740 let's just say

00:38:17.260 that that's all the case.

00:38:18.060 I agree with you.

00:38:18.860 I think that's a fair question.

00:38:20.240 So do I.

00:38:20.860 I've wrestled with that question.

00:38:23.040 So what should Israel have done?

00:38:24.600 I would say that,

00:38:26.260 I'm not,

00:38:26.660 again,

00:38:27.020 I'm not trying to divert.

00:38:30.040 There's two concepts

00:38:31.700 in international law,

00:38:34.000 jus ad bellum

00:38:35.000 and jus in bellum.

00:38:36.700 Jus ad bellum basically means

00:38:38.420 who's the aggressor,

00:38:39.700 who's the defender.

00:38:40.800 Okay?

00:38:41.460 That's jus ad bellum.

00:38:43.220 Jus in bellum is

00:38:44.540 how you conduct a war.

00:38:48.600 And you have to conduct a war

00:38:50.040 according to what we call IHL,

00:38:52.540 International Humanitarian Law,

00:38:54.320 the laws of war.

00:38:55.440 That's conducting.

00:38:56.820 I would say

00:38:57.900 if Israel's,

00:38:59.480 I'm not going to say

00:39:00.500 which side is right

00:39:01.460 and which side is wrong.

00:39:02.520 That's jus ad bellum.

00:39:03.560 I'm not going to discuss it.

00:39:05.160 Jus in bellum,

00:39:06.160 I would say

00:39:06.580 if you're going to carry out a war,

00:39:07.720 even if it's a war of aggression,

00:39:09.760 even if it's a war of aggression,

00:39:11.200 let's say you believe

00:39:11.960 Russia's engaged in a war

00:39:13.060 of aggression against Ukraine,

00:39:14.360 it's still bound

00:39:15.480 by the laws of war.

00:39:17.040 And even if Ukraine

00:39:18.480 is defending itself,

00:39:20.320 it too is bound

00:39:21.320 by the laws of war.

00:39:22.580 So I will say

00:39:23.660 I'm going to separate out

00:39:25.320 the question of

00:39:27.220 who's right

00:39:28.340 and who's wrong.

00:39:29.420 Yes.

00:39:29.880 And I'll simply focus

00:39:31.140 on then

00:39:31.840 the laws of war.

00:39:33.380 And I would say

00:39:33.960 whatever Israel does,

00:39:35.940 whether it's right or wrong,

00:39:37.540 it still has to obey

00:39:38.740 the laws of war.

00:39:40.340 But Israel is carrying out

00:39:41.680 what in my opinion,

00:39:43.300 not in my opinion,

00:39:44.460 what the International

00:39:45.220 Corps of Justice

00:39:46.000 described as

00:39:47.420 a plausible genocide.

00:39:49.800 So just so I'm understanding

00:39:51.160 what you're saying correctly,

00:39:52.960 are you saying

00:39:54.280 that what Israel

00:39:55.040 should have done

00:39:55.800 is retaliated

00:39:57.820 and destroyed

00:39:59.760 the organization

00:40:00.900 that attacked Israel?

00:40:02.020 No, I'm not saying that.

00:40:02.660 You're not saying that?

00:40:03.300 No.

00:40:03.480 So what should they have done?

00:40:04.580 I'm not,

00:40:05.180 I said if they choose

00:40:08.080 to engage in a war...

00:40:09.920 Then they should follow

00:40:10.640 the rules of war.

00:40:11.220 Then they have to follow

00:40:11.880 the rules of war.

00:40:12.040 But what should they,

00:40:13.040 should they have retaliated?

00:40:14.500 Should they have attempted

00:40:15.360 to take out Hamas?

00:40:16.440 Should they be trying

00:40:17.300 to kill the people

00:40:18.180 who attacked that people?

00:40:19.160 No, I would say

00:40:19.900 I cannot accept

00:40:22.220 those judgments,

00:40:24.400 the ones you just funded.

00:40:25.720 I understand them,

00:40:26.820 not necessarily your judgments,

00:40:28.220 but you're telling me.

00:40:29.160 Yeah.

00:40:29.460 Should they have...

00:40:30.440 No, I can't accept

00:40:31.640 those judgments

00:40:32.400 because it's like,

00:40:34.120 for me,

00:40:34.820 I'll just give you

00:40:37.720 the closest analogy I can.

00:40:41.700 When the events

00:40:42.600 of October 7 happened,

00:40:44.440 the first day,

00:40:45.720 it was unclear

00:40:46.640 exactly the magnitude

00:40:48.300 of what had occurred.

00:40:49.940 The numbers were being given

00:40:51.260 where 50 Israelis were killed.

00:40:53.060 It wasn't clear

00:40:53.960 if they were combatants

00:40:54.980 or civilians.

00:40:56.080 And it was only about,

00:40:57.260 you would say,

00:40:57.660 about the third or fourth day

00:40:58.920 it was clear

00:40:59.640 that a crime

00:41:01.160 of significant magnitude

00:41:02.520 had occurred.

00:41:03.240 Atrocities

00:41:03.820 of a very significant magnitude

00:41:06.100 had occurred.

00:41:08.160 By the end,

00:41:09.380 by now,

00:41:09.800 the figures,

00:41:10.340 about 850 civilians

00:41:11.700 were killed.

00:41:12.660 That's a significant,

00:41:14.080 a significant crime

00:41:15.500 by any standards.

00:41:16.400 There's no question

00:41:17.020 in my mind about that.

00:41:18.420 Even if you allow

00:41:19.240 for collateral damage

00:41:20.480 and this and that,

00:41:21.280 no.

00:41:21.720 There's something

00:41:22.260 very substantial

00:41:23.060 that occurred there.

00:41:25.000 And then I had to ask myself

00:41:26.620 exactly the question

00:41:27.660 you asked.

00:41:29.340 You know?

00:41:30.260 What should Israel have done

00:41:31.560 and how do you allocate,

00:41:33.120 so to speak,

00:41:33.740 more responsibility?

00:41:35.120 Let's leave the legal question

00:41:36.300 aside.

00:41:36.860 More responsibility.

00:41:39.120 And after thinking

00:41:40.300 about very hard,

00:41:41.620 the answer,

00:41:42.360 what resonated for me,

00:41:44.320 what seemed right for me,

00:41:45.700 was to see it in the terms

00:41:47.600 for myself as an American,

00:41:49.780 in terms of the slave rebellions.

00:41:52.200 And if you look at,

00:41:53.120 for example,

00:41:53.840 the Nat Turner Rebellion

00:41:55.040 in 1831

00:41:56.040 in the United States,

00:41:57.500 if you look at the details,

00:41:58.640 that was very ugly.

00:42:00.980 You know,

00:42:01.280 Nat Turner,

00:42:02.140 he gave the order

00:42:02.960 to his Confederates,

00:42:04.320 kill all whites.

00:42:05.220 That was the order.

00:42:06.240 Okay?

00:42:06.720 And they went from house to house.

00:42:08.440 And unlike in Gaza,

00:42:10.040 they did behead babies.

00:42:11.740 They took out an axe,

00:42:12.860 chopped off the head of babies,

00:42:14.200 cracked skulls,

00:42:15.600 killed about 61 whites.

00:42:17.360 The rebellion was repressed

00:42:18.820 very quickly.

00:42:20.760 And once I felt

00:42:22.800 that seemed like

00:42:23.980 a fairly reasonable analogy,

00:42:26.160 then the question for me

00:42:27.240 became,

00:42:27.660 how did the abolitionists,

00:42:29.960 those who opposed slavery,

00:42:32.020 how did they react

00:42:33.300 to Nat Turner's rebellion?

00:42:35.700 And it was very striking to me

00:42:37.360 when I read,

00:42:38.000 for example,

00:42:39.180 the editorial

00:42:39.960 by William Lloyd Garrison,

00:42:41.580 who was one of the famous

00:42:42.660 abolitionists in our country,

00:42:45.860 where he wrote an article

00:42:46.920 in the periodical

00:42:48.300 of the abolitionists

00:42:49.160 called The Liberator.

00:42:50.780 And he began by saying,

00:42:52.900 and this, I think,

00:42:53.720 is responsive to your question,

00:42:55.260 he began by saying,

00:42:57.660 I told you,

00:42:58.660 we told you so,

00:42:59.700 we the abolitionists.

00:43:00.880 We told you so.

00:43:02.340 We told you so.

00:43:04.200 And he said,

00:43:05.580 we told you,

00:43:07.000 if you demean these people,

00:43:09.520 degrade these people,

00:43:11.460 humiliate these people,

00:43:13.460 exploit these people,

00:43:15.520 rape these people,

00:43:17.060 if you do that,

00:43:19.560 then what happened

00:43:22.180 with Nat Turner

00:43:23.020 was inevitable.

00:43:25.800 And then...

00:43:26.520 But we've already

00:43:27.680 built that into the argument.

00:43:29.520 No, I'm sorry.

00:43:30.400 Yeah, but he never said,

00:43:31.800 he never said,

00:43:33.140 remember...

00:43:33.900 Listen, let me explain to you

00:43:35.020 where I'm coming from, okay?

00:43:36.100 So that we...

00:43:36.820 Allow me just to complete the thought.

00:43:37.980 We're just talking past each other.

00:43:39.420 No, no, we're not.

00:43:40.200 Allow me to complete the thought.

00:43:41.660 Okay.

00:43:41.940 If you read

00:43:42.900 the Liberator article

00:43:46.720 or editorial,

00:43:49.600 he never says

00:43:50.460 the U.S. government

00:43:51.920 should have retaliated

00:43:53.280 to Nat Turner.

00:43:54.380 Understood.

00:43:55.260 Okay.

00:43:55.740 So his argument is probably,

00:43:57.060 you've got to free the slaves

00:43:57.920 and none of this happens.

00:43:58.760 That's correct.

00:43:59.340 Fine.

00:44:00.380 Let's accept that.

00:44:01.500 However,

00:44:02.460 do you honestly think

00:44:03.800 that a leader of Israel

00:44:05.260 is in a position

00:44:06.160 after the biggest massacre

00:44:07.400 of Jews

00:44:07.860 since the Holocaust

00:44:08.520 to say,

00:44:09.840 you know what we should do

00:44:11.820 in reaction to this

00:44:14.800 is

00:44:15.560 free the Palestinians,

00:44:19.200 whatever that looks like.

00:44:20.220 This is never going to happen.

00:44:21.500 Right?

00:44:21.860 And I'm interested

00:44:23.160 in living in the real world

00:44:24.860 as I think you are.

00:44:26.100 If you care about

00:44:26.780 the lives of Palestinians

00:44:27.860 and Israelis

00:44:28.740 and everybody else,

00:44:30.020 that means

00:44:30.520 there has to be

00:44:31.480 some kind of way

00:44:32.360 of resolving this

00:44:33.740 that is based in reality.

00:44:35.740 And in reality,

00:44:36.960 whatever way you look at it,

00:44:37.960 you've got two tribes

00:44:38.960 that absolutely hate each other

00:44:40.460 with good reason

00:44:41.440 for both sides

00:44:42.300 to hate each other

00:44:42.940 because there's been

00:44:43.620 atrocity against both sides

00:44:45.060 throughout history.

00:44:46.280 You may argue about

00:44:47.580 who's responsible

00:44:48.480 and blah, blah, blah.

00:44:49.340 Reality on the ground is

00:44:50.740 this is where we are.

00:44:52.320 Yes.

00:44:52.720 So my question is

00:44:54.120 how should Israel

00:44:56.700 have reacted

00:44:57.400 in that situation

00:44:58.360 in the real world?

00:45:01.100 In the real world.

00:45:02.720 Right.

00:45:03.060 And I think

00:45:06.100 I have responded to you

00:45:08.060 but you can of course

00:45:09.120 quarrel with me on that.

00:45:10.580 I am quarreling with you.

00:45:11.560 As I said to

00:45:12.700 your name is?

00:45:13.660 Francis.

00:45:14.420 Francis.

00:45:15.120 You can press me

00:45:16.180 and press me

00:45:16.880 and press me.

00:45:17.480 I'm trying.

00:45:18.040 Yes.

00:45:18.460 And I will accept that.

00:45:20.900 My answer is

00:45:22.240 what I've said before.

00:45:24.440 What in the real world

00:45:26.700 should the Palestinians

00:45:29.260 have done

00:45:30.120 if they tried

00:45:32.400 negotiations

00:45:33.360 they

00:45:35.160 gestured

00:45:37.520 to supporting

00:45:38.600 either a two-state settlement

00:45:40.280 here I'm referring to Hamas

00:45:41.540 or

00:45:42.540 what they called

00:45:43.580 a hudna

00:45:44.160 a long-term ceasefire

00:45:45.600 when

00:45:46.860 in March

00:45:48.240 beginning March 30th

00:45:50.660 2018

00:45:51.860 they tried

00:45:53.900 not least

00:45:55.960 because of my

00:45:58.160 encouragement

00:45:59.120 they tried

00:46:01.620 non-violent

00:46:02.640 civil resistance

00:46:04.480 and what was

00:46:06.400 the Israeli response?

00:46:08.620 We know exactly

00:46:10.160 there's a 250-page

00:46:13.320 single-spaced

00:46:14.400 UN report

00:46:15.400 describing the response.

00:46:18.500 Israel took

00:46:19.200 its best

00:46:20.280 snipers

00:46:21.320 lined them up

00:46:23.260 along the perimeter

00:46:24.340 fence

00:46:25.040 and

00:46:26.960 while there was

00:46:29.220 this

00:46:29.500 festive

00:46:30.560 to describe

00:46:32.060 to use the word

00:46:33.320 of the UN report

00:46:34.540 atmosphere

00:46:35.800 among the Palestinians

00:46:37.320 there was music

00:46:38.880 there was dancing

00:46:39.940 there was song

00:46:40.980 the snipers

00:46:42.800 I'm quoting

00:46:43.980 the report

00:46:44.900 intentionally

00:46:46.780 targeted

00:46:48.360 children

00:46:49.040 intentionally

00:46:51.120 targeted

00:46:52.320 medics

00:46:53.880 intentionally

00:46:55.340 targeted

00:46:56.520 journalists

00:46:57.660 intentionally

00:46:59.340 targeted

00:47:00.900 disabled

00:47:02.100 people

00:47:02.740 they described

00:47:04.280 double

00:47:05.560 amputees

00:47:07.280 300 meters

00:47:09.720 from the perimeter

00:47:11.000 fence

00:47:11.680 that Israel

00:47:13.060 shot

00:47:13.640 when they

00:47:14.880 didn't

00:47:15.240 kill them

00:47:16.220 they targeted

00:47:17.820 them from the

00:47:18.780 kneecap

00:47:19.520 down

00:47:20.120 to inflict

00:47:21.580 to use the

00:47:22.360 technical term

00:47:23.400 life-changing

00:47:25.100 injuries

00:47:25.920 which for the

00:47:27.080 layperson

00:47:27.780 translates as

00:47:29.160 paralyzed them

00:47:30.820 one Israeli

00:47:32.700 sniper

00:47:33.680 boasted

00:47:34.780 to Haritz

00:47:35.800 newspaper

00:47:36.600 Israel's

00:47:37.360 most serious

00:47:38.380 newspaper

00:47:39.060 he shot

00:47:40.400 42

00:47:41.500 kneecaps

00:47:42.540 in one

00:47:43.220 day

00:47:43.640 42

00:47:45.480 children

00:47:47.120 and adults

00:47:48.160 paralyzed

00:47:49.340 for life

00:47:50.460 and so

00:47:52.040 when

00:47:53.280 all

00:47:54.360 the options

00:47:55.780 of diplomacy

00:47:57.240 non-violent

00:48:00.040 civil resistance

00:48:01.140 when they've

00:48:02.880 been exhausted

00:48:04.180 what were they

00:48:06.580 supposed to do

00:48:07.820 we've already

00:48:09.280 accepted that

00:48:10.280 for the sake

00:48:11.700 of this argument

00:48:12.340 I've said

00:48:12.760 repeatedly

00:48:13.300 let's accept

00:48:14.300 everything you're

00:48:15.160 saying about

00:48:15.760 the plight of

00:48:16.340 the Palestinian

00:48:16.920 people

00:48:17.320 none of what

00:48:19.300 you're saying

00:48:19.800 though is going

00:48:20.460 to solve

00:48:20.900 what's going

00:48:21.380 on

00:48:21.700 yeah well

00:48:22.220 to solve

00:48:22.860 it I would

00:48:23.460 say you have

00:48:24.080 to use

00:48:24.600 the convention

00:48:25.500 I'm not

00:48:25.960 by the way

00:48:26.840 just to

00:48:27.840 clarify

00:48:28.240 even though

00:48:28.940 in our

00:48:29.320 early

00:48:31.180 our conversation

00:48:32.040 before the

00:48:32.640 program began

00:48:33.360 I said I

00:48:33.980 belong to

00:48:34.480 the Marxist

00:48:35.160 Marxist

00:48:36.440 tradition

00:48:36.860 I see

00:48:37.740 myself there

00:48:38.440 I'm not

00:48:39.440 a radical

00:48:39.920 on these

00:48:40.480 subjects

00:48:41.000 if you can

00:48:42.080 hear me

00:48:42.680 through this

00:48:43.180 whole conversation

00:48:44.180 I was just

00:48:45.300 quoting

00:48:45.660 international

00:48:46.420 law

00:48:46.900 I'm not

00:48:47.460 suggesting

00:48:47.900 you're

00:48:48.160 radical

00:48:48.440 so I'm

00:48:48.900 I have

00:48:49.280 what I'm

00:48:49.680 asking

00:48:49.940 I have

00:48:50.320 a very

00:48:50.600 conventional

00:48:51.280 I have

00:48:52.020 a very

00:48:52.320 conventional

00:48:52.880 answer

00:48:53.620 to your

00:48:54.020 question

00:48:54.520 both sides

00:48:56.300 have to

00:48:56.720 sit down

00:48:57.320 they have

00:48:57.960 to accept

00:48:58.360 the terms

00:48:58.860 of

00:48:59.020 international

00:48:59.660 law

00:49:00.100 for ending

00:49:00.700 the conflict

00:49:01.380 you want

00:49:02.100 to end

00:49:02.500 it

00:49:02.740 according

00:49:03.340 to the

00:49:03.680 real world

00:49:04.260 fine

00:49:04.660 I'm not

00:49:05.560 going to

00:49:05.780 say

00:49:05.980 we have

00:49:06.560 to wait

00:49:06.860 for communism

00:49:07.440 to end

00:49:08.120 it

00:49:08.260 I'm not

00:49:08.800 going to

00:49:09.040 go through

00:49:09.340 the

00:49:09.560 we might

00:49:10.200 be waiting

00:49:10.520 a long time

00:49:11.080 right

00:49:12.180 I'm not

00:49:14.240 saying that

00:49:14.740 I'm not

00:49:15.020 saying we

00:49:15.360 have to

00:49:15.580 wait for

00:49:15.900 socialist

00:49:16.340 revolution

00:49:16.940 I'm

00:49:17.700 saying

00:49:18.080 we apply

00:49:19.580 what

00:49:19.880 everybody's

00:49:20.780 been saying

00:49:21.440 read the

00:49:22.160 South African

00:49:22.780 brief

00:49:23.180 read what

00:49:23.720 everyone says

00:49:24.440 we have to

00:49:25.340 apply the

00:49:26.140 principles of

00:49:26.880 international law

00:49:27.960 to resolve

00:49:28.820 the conflict

00:49:29.460 and that

00:49:30.260 to me

00:49:30.560 is perfectly

00:49:31.140 legitimate

00:49:31.600 now if

00:49:32.540 you want

00:49:33.020 to say

00:49:33.680 that in

00:49:35.740 the real

00:49:36.220 world

00:49:36.880 no resolution

00:49:38.660 of the

00:49:39.000 conflict

00:49:39.920 is possible

00:49:40.920 with Hamas

00:49:41.820 after October

00:49:43.420 7th

00:49:44.500 if that's

00:49:45.040 your position

00:49:45.720 and I see

00:49:46.780 you're shaking

00:49:47.260 your head

00:49:47.680 I haven't

00:49:48.600 said that

00:49:49.080 but if that's

00:49:50.560 the argument

00:49:51.200 I have to

00:49:52.580 say

00:49:52.960 then no

00:49:54.100 settlement

00:49:54.420 is possible

00:49:55.220 with a

00:49:56.300 government

00:49:57.000 that's

00:49:57.580 carrying out

00:49:58.200 a plausible

00:49:59.520 genocide

00:50:00.020 in Gaza

00:50:00.600 but I'm

00:50:01.240 not saying

00:50:01.780 that

00:50:02.080 I'm saying

00:50:03.200 those are

00:50:03.640 the parties

00:50:04.120 to the

00:50:04.440 conflict

00:50:04.860 sit down

00:50:06.100 resolve it

00:50:06.860 however I

00:50:07.620 will say

00:50:08.340 according to

00:50:09.680 current

00:50:10.280 international law

00:50:11.460 current principles

00:50:12.200 every party

00:50:13.720 has to be

00:50:14.800 held accountable

00:50:15.460 for war crimes

00:50:16.680 crimes against

00:50:17.300 humanity

00:50:17.820 and the crime

00:50:18.420 of crime

00:50:19.440 of genocide

00:50:20.000 so the fact

00:50:21.600 that they may

00:50:22.420 resolve the

00:50:23.160 conflict

00:50:23.580 in my opinion

00:50:24.520 does not

00:50:25.480 preclude

00:50:26.380 that they

00:50:27.880 should all

00:50:28.300 be held

00:50:28.680 accountable

00:50:29.220 except there

00:50:30.480 is the

00:50:30.800 alternative

00:50:31.280 you know

00:50:31.640 under the

00:50:32.480 current system

00:50:33.320 what was first

00:50:34.640 established in

00:50:35.460 South Africa

00:50:36.080 which was

00:50:36.580 called the

00:50:37.260 truth and

00:50:37.660 reconciliation

00:50:38.260 method

00:50:39.480 namely

00:50:40.020 we can't

00:50:41.200 prosecute

00:50:41.780 every person

00:50:42.860 who committed

00:50:43.400 a crime

00:50:43.820 under apartheid

00:50:44.860 it's

00:50:45.340 impossible

00:50:46.160 because there's

00:50:47.400 not going to be

00:50:47.900 many people

00:50:48.460 left

00:50:48.780 in South Africa

00:50:50.480 so we'll try

00:50:51.900 what Bishop

00:50:52.600 Tutu attempted

00:50:53.420 you know

00:50:53.880 the truth

00:50:54.360 and reconciliation

00:50:55.000 I could see

00:50:56.180 that as an

00:50:56.920 alternative

00:50:57.380 I happen not

00:50:58.480 to believe in it

00:50:59.500 I believe

00:51:00.360 never to forgive

00:51:01.180 never to forget

00:51:01.980 but that's a

00:51:02.840 personal opinion

00:51:03.580 if you can

00:51:04.520 resolve it that

00:51:05.320 way fine

00:51:06.060 and then let's

00:51:06.720 move on

00:51:07.560 I think it's a

00:51:08.320 hard thing

00:51:08.860 I have to say

00:51:09.760 but I

00:51:10.440 Norman can I

00:51:11.620 just stop you

00:51:12.180 there because

00:51:12.600 you said

00:51:13.080 never to forgive

00:51:13.820 never to forget

00:51:14.580 but look

00:51:16.520 if you look

00:51:17.340 at what happens

00:51:17.940 in Northern Ireland

00:51:18.780 what happened

00:51:19.560 in Northern Ireland

00:51:20.260 if everybody

00:51:20.940 in Northern Ireland

00:51:21.640 weren't never

00:51:22.480 to forgive

00:51:23.000 never to forget

00:51:23.840 that situation

00:51:25.400 would never

00:51:26.180 have been resolved

00:51:26.940 and where it is

00:51:27.880 now is unimaginable

00:51:29.680 to where it was

00:51:30.480 in the 1970s

00:51:31.820 and 80s

00:51:32.360 Francis

00:51:32.760 I try to be

00:51:34.980 careful in my words

00:51:36.040 of course

00:51:36.480 and I don't wish

00:51:37.220 to misrepresent

00:51:38.340 you're not

00:51:38.780 I just want

00:51:40.240 to be careful

00:51:41.020 make clear

00:51:41.860 what I said

00:51:42.540 I said

00:51:43.440 as a personal

00:51:45.020 opinion

00:51:45.980 I don't accept

00:51:48.080 it

00:51:48.340 I will tell you

00:51:49.780 why

00:51:50.100 and you'll

00:51:51.100 forgive me

00:51:51.760 the drama

00:51:52.360 but that's

00:51:52.980 my life

00:51:53.940 my being

00:51:54.820 so

00:51:56.100 after World War II

00:51:58.740 in 1979

00:52:01.060 there were

00:52:02.940 there was

00:52:03.520 a last major

00:52:04.680 trial

00:52:05.120 at that time

00:52:05.820 it was called

00:52:06.300 the last major

00:52:07.100 trial

00:52:07.500 of

00:52:08.480 Nazi war criminals

00:52:10.440 the female guards

00:52:12.440 from Meishten

00:52:13.680 their concentration camp

00:52:14.880 and my mother

00:52:16.820 was called

00:52:18.200 to be a witness

00:52:20.660 to be a witness

00:52:20.680 at the trial

00:52:21.760 and

00:52:23.660 we weren't told

00:52:29.620 I accompanied her

00:52:30.500 to the trial

00:52:31.120 we weren't told

00:52:32.680 that the guards

00:52:33.400 were released

00:52:33.980 on their own

00:52:35.000 they walked freely

00:52:36.080 in the courthouse

00:52:36.940 and they were released

00:52:38.760 on their own

00:52:39.360 recognizance

00:52:40.200 at night

00:52:40.780 and my mother

00:52:42.680 started to scream

00:52:43.800 why aren't they

00:52:44.580 in cages

00:52:45.180 they're animals

00:52:46.300 now bear in mind

00:52:48.140 it's 40 years later

00:52:50.080 it was 1979

00:52:51.180 and

00:52:53.300 at a certain point

00:52:55.540 without going into

00:52:56.340 the details

00:52:57.020 we confronted

00:52:57.860 or one of the guards

00:52:59.680 was walking

00:53:01.520 about an inch away

00:53:03.020 from me

00:53:03.540 outside the courthouse

00:53:05.000 as my mother was

00:53:06.600 on the other side

00:53:07.740 of me

00:53:08.180 it was such

00:53:10.100 a provocation

00:53:11.260 and

00:53:12.720 I confronted

00:53:14.340 that situation

00:53:15.240 I mention it

00:53:16.440 because

00:53:18.300 40 years later

00:53:20.620 that desire

00:53:23.380 for revenge

00:53:25.020 that unwillingness

00:53:27.940 to forgive

00:53:29.520 or forget

00:53:31.580 those who put

00:53:33.980 your mother

00:53:34.680 your father

00:53:36.080 your two sisters

00:53:37.900 and brother

00:53:38.980 in a gas chamber

00:53:40.980 never to forgive

00:53:43.140 never to forget

00:53:45.100 that's what I

00:53:46.860 internalize

00:53:47.860 but I

00:53:48.760 perfectly

00:53:49.740 respect

00:53:50.680 what you just said

00:53:52.220 there couldn't

00:53:53.900 have been peace

00:53:54.740 in Northern Ireland

00:53:55.740 there couldn't

00:53:57.020 have been peace

00:53:57.680 in South Africa

00:53:58.640 if that were

00:54:00.100 the attitude

00:54:01.020 taken

00:54:02.760 by the

00:54:04.700 protagonists

00:54:06.740 in that

00:54:08.300 historical drama

00:54:09.440 I said

00:54:10.540 speaking

00:54:11.600 strictly

00:54:12.280 for myself

00:54:13.240 and in

00:54:14.940 deference

00:54:16.180 to

00:54:17.360 my parents

00:54:18.840 suffering

00:54:20.200 and their

00:54:21.140 legacy

00:54:21.620 but as a

00:54:23.200 practical matter

00:54:24.240 you resolve

00:54:25.840 the conflict

00:54:26.740 according to

00:54:27.780 the principles

00:54:28.380 of international

00:54:29.300 law

00:54:29.900 and

00:54:31.380 you hold

00:54:33.100 accountable

00:54:33.720 those who

00:54:35.020 are guilty

00:54:35.540 of

00:54:36.060 crimes

00:54:37.220 under

00:54:37.800 international

00:54:39.000 law

00:54:39.400 or

00:54:40.060 you seek

00:54:41.260 some sort

00:54:41.780 of truth

00:54:42.200 and reconciliation

00:54:43.380 process

00:54:44.500 that's how I see it

00:54:46.020 and that's the only

00:54:46.820 way to be

00:54:47.480 because

00:54:47.900 so for a bit

00:54:48.980 of disclosure

00:54:49.540 half my family

00:54:50.700 is South American

00:54:51.400 but a large portion

00:54:52.980 of them particularly

00:54:53.460 my grandfather

00:54:53.980 is from the Middle East

00:54:54.940 he's from Lebanon

00:54:55.800 and

00:54:57.180 what always struck me

00:54:59.060 whenever I heard

00:54:59.880 my grandfather

00:55:00.540 talk about

00:55:01.520 Israel

00:55:02.700 was

00:55:03.840 and this is a man

00:55:05.000 who's a historian

00:55:05.700 a very learned

00:55:06.260 very educated man

00:55:07.780 there was a lack

00:55:08.880 of rationality

00:55:09.740 because of

00:55:10.820 the heightened

00:55:11.700 level of emotions

00:55:12.840 involved in this

00:55:14.540 particular conflict

00:55:15.520 and

00:55:16.720 it seems to me

00:55:18.160 and I think

00:55:18.940 we're in agreement

00:55:19.640 here

00:55:19.980 if we

00:55:21.680 always tap

00:55:23.600 into the emotion

00:55:24.500 side of it

00:55:25.180 if we always look

00:55:26.500 at the atrocities

00:55:28.120 that have been

00:55:28.420 happened on both sides

00:55:29.600 if we focus

00:55:30.380 on the anger

00:55:31.260 and the rage

00:55:32.140 and the injustice

00:55:33.060 we are never going

00:55:34.500 to be able

00:55:34.920 to move forward

00:55:35.680 and what is going

00:55:36.760 to happen

00:55:37.240 is that

00:55:37.800 future generations

00:55:39.100 will suffer

00:55:39.680 look

00:55:40.740 I told you

00:55:43.100 at the very

00:55:44.060 outset

00:55:44.580 I have

00:55:46.800 tried

00:55:47.760 to

00:55:49.260 carve

00:55:50.340 a path

00:55:51.120 whereby

00:55:52.320 I am

00:55:53.180 faithful

00:55:54.140 to facts

00:55:55.080 logic

00:55:56.080 reason

00:55:57.140 but

00:55:58.400 not

00:55:59.560 to

00:56:00.160 intellectualize

00:56:01.820 so

00:56:02.940 when you say

00:56:04.040 if we

00:56:05.300 if we

00:56:07.100 acquiesce

00:56:10.100 to passions

00:56:11.560 and emotions

00:56:13.820 I think

00:56:15.480 passions

00:56:16.920 and emotions

00:56:18.480 are integral

00:56:20.880 to justice

00:56:22.820 they are not

00:56:24.560 a

00:56:25.640 encumbrance

00:56:27.420 on justice

00:56:28.640 that's how

00:56:29.540 I see it

00:56:30.280 I can't

00:56:31.480 intellectualize

00:56:32.640 I can't

00:56:34.820 you know

00:56:35.140 the other day

00:56:35.900 I spoke

00:56:37.900 at MIT

00:56:38.560 their encampment

00:56:39.680 really impressive

00:56:41.980 you know

00:56:42.540 these are the

00:56:43.020 smartest

00:56:43.460 minds

00:56:44.960 on earth

00:56:46.380 and most

00:56:47.160 of them

00:56:47.480 in the

00:56:48.140 encampment

00:56:48.600 most

00:56:48.860 not all

00:56:49.340 were from

00:56:50.180 the Middle

00:56:50.540 East

00:56:50.900 there were

00:56:52.580 two young

00:56:53.060 men from

00:56:53.520 Gaza

00:56:53.900 two young

00:56:55.100 men from

00:56:55.500 Gaza

00:56:55.820 you know

00:56:56.680 and

00:56:58.020 after

00:57:00.320 I was at

00:57:00.840 the encampment

00:57:01.420 for about

00:57:01.780 three hours

00:57:02.400 and then I

00:57:02.920 spoke

00:57:03.340 and somebody

00:57:04.580 asked me

00:57:05.160 what is your

00:57:05.920 most

00:57:07.000 distinct

00:57:07.920 memory

00:57:08.520 of Gaza

00:57:09.280 I was only

00:57:10.120 there very

00:57:10.460 little

00:57:10.780 very

00:57:11.380 I spent

00:57:11.880 significant

00:57:12.660 time in the

00:57:13.260 West Bank

00:57:13.800 in a place

00:57:15.380 called

00:57:15.840 Hebron

00:57:16.640 Al Khalil

00:57:17.400 and in a

00:57:18.240 place called

00:57:18.680 Beit Suhor

00:57:19.180 and I said

00:57:20.620 I know it's

00:57:22.340 going to sound

00:57:22.780 strange

00:57:23.240 I said

00:57:23.760 but my

00:57:24.980 most distinct

00:57:25.760 memory

00:57:26.260 is

00:57:27.440 there was a

00:57:28.660 beautiful

00:57:29.460 library

00:57:30.060 in Gaza

00:57:31.060 a magnificent

00:57:32.960 structure

00:57:34.440 it was

00:57:35.660 donated by

00:57:36.580 Saudi Arabia

00:57:37.340 it was called

00:57:38.040 the King

00:57:38.700 Salman

00:57:39.600 Library

00:57:40.280 it was

00:57:42.000 like a

00:57:43.960 castle

00:57:44.660 you know

00:57:45.980 and when I

00:57:47.440 read in the

00:57:47.960 newspaper

00:57:48.660 it was

00:57:50.320 reduced to

00:57:51.200 rubble

00:57:51.580 it really

00:57:53.380 it left

00:57:56.880 it really

00:57:57.940 really bothered

00:57:59.240 me

00:57:59.620 you know

00:58:00.720 I saw the

00:58:01.640 kids in that

00:58:02.320 library

00:58:02.700 I saw the

00:58:03.200 librarian

00:58:03.780 the head

00:58:05.520 librarian

00:58:05.940 very dignified

00:58:06.860 woman

00:58:07.180 and

00:58:08.940 that's part

00:58:11.020 of the

00:58:11.320 picture

00:58:11.780 for me

00:58:12.440 it's not

00:58:13.520 just the

00:58:14.000 rubble

00:58:14.640 it's not

00:58:16.040 just

00:58:16.480 another

00:58:17.620 building

00:58:18.940 destroyed

00:58:20.140 it's the

00:58:22.240 children

00:58:22.700 it's the

00:58:25.460 librarian

00:58:26.260 it's human

00:58:28.680 beings

00:58:29.460 you know

00:58:30.720 I can't

00:58:32.100 and it's

00:58:32.580 passionate

00:58:33.160 and emotion

00:58:33.820 and I

00:58:35.200 I don't

00:58:35.960 think it's

00:58:37.780 sensible

00:58:38.720 if I can

00:58:40.340 use that

00:58:40.840 word

00:58:41.200 which refers

00:58:41.780 to reason

00:58:42.360 I don't

00:58:43.500 think it's

00:58:44.040 sensible

00:58:44.460 to try to

00:58:45.260 separate them

00:58:45.960 out

00:58:46.260 I don't

00:58:47.160 think we're

00:58:47.580 suggesting that

00:58:48.280 they should be

00:58:48.760 separated out

00:58:49.540 I think what

00:58:50.160 Francis is

00:58:50.760 suggesting and

00:58:51.460 I agree with

00:58:52.120 him is that

00:58:53.220 if we fail

00:58:54.220 to adequately

00:58:55.720 look at the

00:58:56.480 situation and

00:58:57.200 focus on the

00:58:57.780 future

00:58:58.160 more libraries

00:58:59.540 will be

00:58:59.880 destroyed

00:58:59.940 I totally

00:59:00.320 agree with

00:59:00.800 you

00:59:00.900 more children

00:59:03.120 will be

00:59:03.560 made

00:59:03.760 and so I

00:59:04.760 think the

00:59:05.140 conversation

00:59:05.660 that we are

00:59:06.420 trying to

00:59:06.920 have is

00:59:07.820 about how

00:59:08.800 this gets

00:59:09.260 moved forward

00:59:09.780 and you've

00:59:10.180 said that the

00:59:10.760 way it gets

00:59:11.140 moved forward

00:59:11.600 is by the

00:59:12.120 side sitting

00:59:12.680 down and

00:59:13.900 talking

00:59:14.140 and ending

00:59:14.540 the conflict

00:59:15.040 on the basis

00:59:16.380 of international

00:59:17.500 law

00:59:17.860 we'll get to

00:59:20.720 that in a

00:59:21.120 second

00:59:21.340 one of the

00:59:21.860 other things

00:59:22.300 that I

00:59:23.260 hosted a

00:59:23.820 panel at a

00:59:24.560 festival

00:59:25.200 recently which

00:59:26.140 was very

00:59:26.600 intense about

00:59:28.100 Israel and

00:59:28.600 Palestine

00:59:28.940 I was the

00:59:29.400 moderator

00:59:29.780 I was trying

00:59:30.400 to press

00:59:30.940 both sides

00:59:31.540 on their

00:59:31.840 arguments

00:59:32.260 but one

00:59:34.060 of the

00:59:34.280 interesting

00:59:34.560 things to

00:59:35.000 me was

00:59:35.300 actually

00:59:35.760 everybody

00:59:36.140 agreed

00:59:36.620 broadly

00:59:37.040 speaking

00:59:37.520 on the

00:59:38.520 ratio of

00:59:39.580 Hamas

00:59:39.940 fighters who

00:59:40.580 had been

00:59:40.840 killed to

00:59:41.880 civilians who

00:59:42.680 had been

00:59:42.900 killed

00:59:43.240 and it

00:59:44.740 was something

00:59:45.220 like total

00:59:46.140 killed 35,000

00:59:47.460 and about a

00:59:48.540 fifth of those

00:59:49.180 were Hamas

00:59:49.700 fighters

00:59:50.020 I've studied

00:59:52.300 the question

00:59:52.860 I'm not pulling

00:59:53.720 right

00:59:53.740 I don't think

00:59:55.560 there's anything

00:59:55.940 nobody knows

00:59:57.180 it's impossible

00:59:58.540 how could you

00:59:59.360 know how many

01:00:00.040 Hamas fighters

01:00:00.700 were killed

01:00:01.220 most Hamas

01:00:02.340 fighters were

01:00:02.960 killed probably

01:00:03.660 the same way

01:00:04.480 that most

01:00:05.340 Gaza civilians

01:00:07.320 were killed

01:00:07.800 in the course

01:00:08.580 of indiscriminate

01:00:09.480 carpet bombing

01:00:10.160 there's no way

01:00:11.200 to know

01:00:11.600 the Gaza

01:00:12.480 health ministry

01:00:14.140 never distinguishes

01:00:15.460 the numbers

01:00:17.400 between civilians

01:00:18.320 and combatants

01:00:19.040 killed

01:00:19.360 the number

01:00:20.260 of Hamas

01:00:21.180 people killed

01:00:22.020 in tunnels

01:00:22.540 nobody knows

01:00:23.560 because Israel

01:00:24.200 just blows up

01:00:24.980 the shafts

01:00:25.540 to the tunnels

01:00:26.040 they don't go

01:00:26.620 down for obvious

01:00:27.340 reasons

01:00:27.740 the fear of being

01:00:28.420 booby-chop

01:00:29.020 and so forth

01:00:29.640 so we don't

01:00:30.740 have any idea

01:00:31.600 what the number

01:00:32.140 of Hamas

01:00:32.620 militants killed

01:00:33.420 is

01:00:33.660 Israel just

01:00:34.540 throws out

01:00:35.160 numbers

01:00:35.580 one day

01:00:36.280 he'll say

01:00:36.640 9,000

01:00:37.440 another day

01:00:38.000 he'll say

01:00:38.320 12,000

01:00:39.160 at one news

01:00:40.140 conference

01:00:40.540 in Germany

01:00:41.260 Prime Minister

01:00:43.320 Netanyahu

01:00:43.960 said for every

01:00:44.660 civilian

01:00:45.060 for every militant

01:00:46.340 killed

01:00:46.600 one civilian

01:00:47.220 was killed

01:00:47.700 you know

01:00:48.100 a nice

01:00:48.440 one-to-one

01:00:49.020 proportion

01:00:49.500 and the person

01:00:50.660 interrogating him

01:00:51.980 said

01:00:52.500 are you saying

01:00:53.360 one civilian

01:00:54.660 one combat

01:00:55.700 and he said

01:00:56.100 yeah sure

01:00:56.660 that's what

01:00:57.040 he said

01:00:57.660 all the numbers

01:00:58.720 are just made up

01:00:59.620 well that

01:01:00.180 that wasn't

01:01:00.680 the ratio

01:01:01.620 that I was

01:01:02.080 talking about

01:01:02.620 I think

01:01:03.040 people

01:01:03.500 on the panel

01:01:04.480 that I was

01:01:04.920 hosting

01:01:05.220 it was something

01:01:05.940 like one

01:01:06.520 to five

01:01:07.060 one to six

01:01:08.100 something like that

01:01:08.800 I have no idea

01:01:09.700 I wouldn't pretend

01:01:10.400 to know

01:01:10.820 nor would I

01:01:11.820 nor would I

01:01:12.500 but let's

01:01:13.280 just for the sake

01:01:13.960 of trying to

01:01:14.920 understand this

01:01:15.640 situation

01:01:16.080 let's just say

01:01:16.820 it is something

01:01:17.520 like that

01:01:18.240 something like that

01:01:19.740 the people

01:01:21.120 who liberated

01:01:22.000 your parents

01:01:23.100 by the way

01:01:25.660 the Soviets

01:01:26.020 committed some

01:01:26.600 awful atrocities

01:01:27.500 that nobody

01:01:28.000 should defend

01:01:28.580 nobody should

01:01:29.900 defend like

01:01:30.640 the mass

01:01:31.020 rape of

01:01:31.380 German women

01:01:31.840 etc

01:01:32.180 however

01:01:32.960 the collective

01:01:34.360 allies

01:01:36.100 collectively

01:01:37.040 together

01:01:37.600 would have

01:01:38.880 killed a

01:01:39.880 hell of a lot

01:01:41.120 of civilians

01:01:41.700 in what I

01:01:42.760 think we

01:01:43.120 would agree

01:01:43.540 was the

01:01:45.080 just attempt

01:01:46.360 to end

01:01:47.040 that conflict

01:01:47.680 and the people

01:01:48.780 who had the

01:01:50.220 ability to end

01:01:50.920 that conflict

01:01:51.420 without those

01:01:52.100 civilian casualties

01:01:52.860 were the

01:01:53.460 Nazi party

01:01:54.120 who continued

01:01:54.860 to make

01:01:55.380 their last

01:01:55.960 stand

01:01:56.380 despite

01:01:57.200 being entirely

01:01:58.460 clear that

01:01:58.960 they were

01:01:59.180 going to lose

01:01:59.600 and they

01:02:00.260 exposed their

01:02:01.020 civilians to

01:02:01.640 that suffering

01:02:02.220 quite deliberately

01:02:03.020 right

01:02:03.640 I'm not sure

01:02:05.220 deliberately

01:02:05.860 you could say

01:02:06.660 recklessly

01:02:07.220 okay

01:02:08.960 they didn't

01:02:09.820 want their

01:02:10.200 civilians to be

01:02:10.980 killed but they

01:02:11.480 didn't care

01:02:11.840 if they were killed

01:02:12.480 fine

01:02:12.900 isn't that

01:02:13.940 exactly what's

01:02:14.700 happening in Gaza

01:02:15.380 meaning

01:02:17.600 meaning that

01:02:18.700 the people

01:02:19.240 in charge of Gaza

01:02:20.180 could have

01:02:20.520 handed over

01:02:20.940 the hostages

01:02:21.480 by now

01:02:21.960 could have

01:02:22.580 surrendered the

01:02:23.500 terrorists

01:02:23.840 who committed

01:02:24.260 the atrocities

01:02:24.880 on October 7th

01:02:26.080 and this would

01:02:26.920 all be over

01:02:27.420 well I would

01:02:28.600 say

01:02:28.960 if Hamas

01:02:31.060 surrendered

01:02:31.800 it would

01:02:32.820 all be over

01:02:33.780 I agree

01:02:34.640 with that

01:02:35.160 okay

01:02:35.480 if they could

01:02:36.240 declare as

01:02:37.260 Prime Minister

01:02:39.480 Netanyahu

01:02:40.200 has said

01:02:40.840 we want

01:02:41.940 an unequivocal

01:02:42.820 total victory

01:02:43.740 military victory

01:02:44.740 over Hamas

01:02:45.540 that's their goal

01:02:46.640 which is what

01:02:47.420 we wanted

01:02:47.900 in World War II

01:02:48.640 right

01:02:48.960 exactly

01:02:49.380 exactly what

01:02:50.460 we wanted

01:02:50.840 in World War II

01:02:51.300 that's why

01:02:51.720 we kept

01:02:52.060 fighting

01:02:52.400 we wanted

01:02:53.040 them to

01:02:53.480 capitulate

01:02:54.000 that's correct

01:02:54.840 right

01:02:55.140 so isn't

01:02:55.920 Israel doing

01:02:56.460 exactly the

01:02:57.020 same thing

01:02:57.460 in response

01:02:57.920 to October 7th

01:02:58.580 well there's

01:02:59.500 a slight

01:02:59.920 difference

01:03:00.540 okay

01:03:00.940 okay

01:03:01.420 if you

01:03:01.740 allow me

01:03:02.340 please

01:03:02.680 of course

01:03:03.100 the slight

01:03:03.940 difference

01:03:04.420 is

01:03:04.920 let's assume

01:03:06.600 what you

01:03:07.020 describe

01:03:07.480 happened

01:03:08.020 okay

01:03:08.940 there are

01:03:10.820 two

01:03:11.180 I should

01:03:11.860 say

01:03:12.060 there are

01:03:12.400 two

01:03:12.600 differences

01:03:13.180 number

01:03:14.460 one

01:03:15.040 after

01:03:16.360 October

01:03:18.200 7th

01:03:19.760 Israel

01:03:20.120 was

01:03:20.500 determined

01:03:21.040 that

01:03:22.040 as you

01:03:23.040 know

01:03:23.180 the

01:03:23.360 cliche

01:03:23.940 every

01:03:24.460 crisis

01:03:24.900 is an

01:03:25.420 opportunity

01:03:26.000 and

01:03:27.360 their

01:03:27.700 opportunity

01:03:28.420 came

01:03:29.100 with

01:03:29.460 the

01:03:29.900 crisis

01:03:30.320 what

01:03:30.600 happened

01:03:30.880 October 7th

01:03:32.020 and they

01:03:32.580 were determined

01:03:33.260 and they

01:03:33.700 said this

01:03:34.140 as far

01:03:34.540 back

01:03:34.780 as

01:03:34.960 2015

01:03:35.660 I

01:03:36.800 quoted

01:03:37.160 actually

01:03:37.540 at the

01:03:37.840 end

01:03:38.000 of my

01:03:38.360 book

01:03:38.900 on

01:03:39.120 Gaza

01:03:39.460 because

01:03:40.240 I

01:03:40.360 was

01:03:40.500 rereading

01:03:40.960 it

01:03:41.140 and I

01:03:41.340 noticed

01:03:41.700 it

01:03:41.940 at the

01:03:42.380 very

01:03:42.580 end

01:03:42.840 they

01:03:43.020 said

01:03:43.180 they

01:03:43.360 said

01:03:43.900 they

01:03:44.000 are

01:03:44.080 tired

01:03:44.420 of

01:03:44.580 what

01:03:44.700 they

01:03:44.840 called

01:03:45.220 these

01:03:45.880 wars

01:03:46.280 of

01:03:46.480 attrition

01:03:46.980 with

01:03:47.280 Gaza

01:03:47.620 and they

01:03:48.560 said

01:03:48.780 the

01:03:48.940 next

01:03:49.320 war

01:03:49.740 will

01:03:50.140 be

01:03:50.340 the

01:03:50.560 last

01:03:50.940 war

01:03:51.260 and

01:03:52.860 in

01:03:53.040 fact

01:03:53.260 that

01:03:53.480 seems

01:03:54.400 to be

01:03:54.980 turning

01:03:55.360 out

01:03:55.620 to be

01:03:55.860 the

01:03:56.060 case

01:03:56.320 we

01:03:56.480 don't

01:03:56.620 know

01:03:56.800 yet

01:03:57.020 know

01:03:57.240 how

01:03:57.420 it's

01:03:57.640 going

01:03:57.780 to

01:03:57.900 end

01:03:58.100 so

01:03:58.980 Israel

01:03:59.500 was

01:03:59.860 determined

01:04:00.480 after

01:04:01.440 October

01:04:01.960 7th

01:04:02.920 that

01:04:03.380 there

01:04:03.560 is

01:04:03.720 not

01:04:03.960 going

01:04:04.220 to

01:04:04.440 be

01:04:04.880 another

01:04:05.960 what

01:04:06.640 they

01:04:06.820 call

01:04:07.180 mowing

01:04:07.820 of

01:04:08.180 the

01:04:08.380 lawn

01:04:08.720 in

01:04:09.060 Gaza

01:04:09.360 this

01:04:10.760 time

01:04:11.240 they

01:04:11.540 weren't

01:04:11.840 just

01:04:12.080 going

01:04:12.340 to

01:04:12.560 cut

01:04:12.900 down

01:04:13.120 the

01:04:13.300 blades

01:04:13.780 in

01:04:14.220 Gaza

01:04:14.560 their

01:04:15.000 mowing

01:04:15.420 of

01:04:15.660 the

01:04:15.800 lawn

01:04:16.060 they

01:04:16.740 are

01:04:16.920 going

01:04:17.220 to

01:04:17.800 extirpate

01:04:18.800 pull

01:04:19.920 out

01:04:20.180 by

01:04:20.380 the

01:04:20.600 root

01:04:20.940 every

01:04:22.100 blade

01:04:23.060 of

01:04:23.500 grass

01:04:24.040 in

01:04:24.600 Gaza

01:04:24.960 so

01:04:26.180 their

01:04:27.200 goal

01:04:27.960 yes

01:04:29.440 their

01:04:30.360 goal

01:04:30.640 is

01:04:31.080 to

01:04:31.660 defeat

01:04:32.620 Hamas

01:04:33.500 to

01:04:34.320 inflict

01:04:34.760 a

01:04:35.060 massive

01:04:35.460 military

01:04:36.100 defeat

01:04:37.000 on

01:04:37.240 Gaza

01:04:37.480 but

01:04:38.060 there

01:04:38.200 is

01:04:38.320 a

01:04:38.500 second

01:04:38.840 goal

01:04:39.300 the

01:04:40.200 second

01:04:40.560 goal

01:04:41.020 is

01:04:41.660 to

01:04:42.300 once

01:04:42.940 and

01:04:43.560 for

01:04:43.860 all

01:04:44.300 resolve

01:04:45.660 this

01:04:46.560 Gaza

01:04:47.040 question

01:04:47.600 and

01:04:48.940 that

01:04:49.220 means

01:04:50.140 could

01:04:51.140 mean

01:04:51.520 three

01:04:52.400 things

01:04:53.000 it

01:04:53.760 could

01:04:53.940 mean

01:04:54.280 ethnic

01:04:54.860 cleansing

01:04:55.460 which

01:04:55.880 is

01:04:56.020 what

01:04:56.160 they

01:04:56.320 tried

01:04:56.660 during

01:04:56.940 the

01:04:57.120 first

01:04:57.380 two

01:04:57.640 weeks

01:04:57.960 as

01:04:58.300 you

01:04:58.460 will

01:04:58.600 recall

01:04:59.020 when

01:04:59.700 Secretary

01:05:00.180 of

01:05:00.540 State

01:05:00.820 Blinken

01:05:01.240 and

01:05:01.860 Ursula

01:05:02.380 van

01:05:02.720 der

01:05:02.840 Leyen

01:05:03.120 were

01:05:03.300 going

01:05:03.520 to

01:05:03.680 places

01:05:04.000 like

01:05:04.320 Egypt

01:05:04.680 and

01:05:05.360 telling

01:05:05.620 them

01:05:05.860 to

01:05:06.060 take

01:05:06.340 in

01:05:06.600 the

01:05:07.060 Gazans

01:05:07.460 Egypt

01:05:08.500 vetoed

01:05:09.440 that

01:05:09.980 so

01:05:11.220 ethnic

01:05:12.040 cleansing

01:05:12.440 at least

01:05:13.260 until

01:05:13.740 now

01:05:14.120 can't

01:05:14.560 predict

01:05:14.820 tomorrow

01:05:15.240 is not

01:05:16.220 an

01:05:16.420 option

01:05:16.820 the

01:05:17.760 second

01:05:18.120 possible

01:05:18.740 goal

01:05:19.240 is

01:05:19.920 as I

01:05:21.000 quote

01:05:21.280 Geora

01:05:21.720 Island

01:05:22.320 to

01:05:23.100 make

01:05:23.460 Gaza

01:05:23.980 uninhabitable

01:05:25.580 so

01:05:26.660 they have

01:05:27.140 only

01:05:27.400 two

01:05:27.800 choices

01:05:28.300 to

01:05:28.600 stay

01:05:28.900 and

01:05:29.140 starve

01:05:29.520 or

01:05:29.800 to

01:05:30.020 leave

01:05:30.440 and

01:05:31.360 and

01:05:31.380 the

01:05:31.560 third

01:05:31.840 goal

01:05:32.220 is

01:05:32.460 the

01:05:32.640 one

01:05:32.880 that

01:05:33.280 Prime

01:05:34.900 Minister

01:05:35.220 Netanyahu

01:05:35.900 announced

01:05:36.500 twice

01:05:37.180 to

01:05:39.140 do

01:05:40.080 to

01:05:40.420 Amalek

01:05:41.100 remember

01:05:43.340 Amalek

01:05:44.140 you

01:05:44.860 kill

01:05:45.220 every

01:05:45.800 man

01:05:46.680 woman

01:05:47.300 and

01:05:47.860 child

01:05:48.240 as

01:05:49.420 Beth

01:05:50.020 Selim

01:05:50.460 the

01:05:50.700 Israeli

01:05:51.020 Information

01:05:51.580 Center

01:05:51.980 for Human

01:05:52.520 Rights

01:05:52.860 in the

01:05:53.080 Occupied

01:05:53.580 Territories

01:05:54.260 as

01:05:55.060 Beth

01:05:55.340 Selim

01:05:55.740 put it

01:05:56.580 in

01:05:57.260 its

01:05:57.420 most

01:05:57.700 recent

01:05:58.080 report

01:05:58.580 called

01:05:59.080 Manufacturing

01:06:00.120 Famine

01:06:00.720 in

01:06:00.960 Gaza

01:06:01.320 it

01:06:02.460 said

01:06:02.800 every

01:06:04.020 Israeli

01:06:05.080 who's

01:06:05.560 gone

01:06:05.860 through

01:06:06.200 our

01:06:06.640 educational

01:06:07.480 system

01:06:08.140 every

01:06:09.320 Israeli

01:06:10.000 who's

01:06:10.760 gone

01:06:11.020 through

01:06:11.280 our

01:06:11.480 educational

01:06:12.100 system

01:06:12.700 knows

01:06:13.820 what

01:06:14.860 it

01:06:15.080 means

01:06:15.680 to

01:06:15.960 say

01:06:16.520 Amalek

01:06:17.660 everyone

01:06:19.120 understands

01:06:20.080 that

01:06:20.860 means

01:06:21.480 kill

01:06:22.380 every

01:06:23.440 man

01:06:24.360 woman

01:06:25.240 and

01:06:25.880 child

01:06:26.300 so

01:06:27.600 I

01:06:28.820 disagree

01:06:29.420 with

01:06:29.920 you

01:06:30.220 that

01:06:31.380 if

01:06:31.960 the

01:06:32.880 hostages

01:06:33.500 were

01:06:33.740 released

01:06:34.260 and

01:06:35.360 if

01:06:35.960 even

01:06:36.520 Hamas

01:06:37.120 surrendered

01:06:37.720 it

01:06:38.540 would

01:06:38.700 not

01:06:38.980 be

01:06:39.260 over

01:06:39.580 for

01:06:39.820 Israel

01:06:40.220 it

01:06:40.960 wants

01:06:41.660 to

01:06:41.940 make

01:06:42.280 this

01:06:42.820 war

01:06:43.320 the

01:06:44.060 last

01:06:44.640 war

01:06:44.980 so

01:06:45.140 just

01:06:45.340 to

01:06:45.460 be

01:06:45.540 clear

01:06:45.740 let

01:06:46.580 me

01:06:46.680 just

01:06:46.880 interject

01:06:47.540 one

01:06:47.860 thing

01:06:48.120 and

01:06:48.420 I

01:06:48.740 want

01:06:48.960 to

01:06:49.060 clarify

01:06:49.360 what

01:06:49.700 you're

01:06:49.840 saying

01:06:50.060 and

01:06:50.200 then

01:06:50.320 please

01:06:50.520 Karen

01:06:50.780 what

01:06:51.760 you're

01:06:51.960 saying

01:06:52.200 is

01:06:52.380 if

01:06:52.540 Hamas

01:06:52.880 handed

01:06:53.180 over

01:06:53.400 the

01:06:53.540 hostages

01:06:54.000 and

01:06:54.480 surrendered

01:06:54.880 the

01:06:55.140 terrorists

01:06:55.640 who

01:06:55.860 committed

01:06:56.180 October

01:06:56.580 7th

01:06:57.100 attacks

01:06:57.480 well

01:06:57.700 now

01:06:57.840 you're

01:06:57.940 adding

01:06:58.120 another

01:06:58.440 condition

01:06:59.020 well

01:07:00.360 I said

01:07:00.680 that

01:07:00.820 at the

01:07:01.020 beginning

01:07:01.240 no

01:07:01.460 you said

01:07:01.920 if

01:07:02.080 Hamas

01:07:03.620 handed over

01:07:05.080 the hostages

01:07:05.600 and the

01:07:05.980 people who

01:07:06.300 committed

01:07:06.540 I said

01:07:07.100 that right

01:07:07.420 at the

01:07:07.600 beginning

01:07:07.720 maybe you

01:07:08.100 didn't hear

01:07:08.420 Hamas

01:07:09.300 Hamas

01:07:09.320 turns

01:07:09.700 himself

01:07:10.140 in

01:07:10.480 I

01:07:11.540 thought

01:07:13.660 you were

01:07:14.120 the one

01:07:14.460 that wanted

01:07:14.800 to talk

01:07:15.240 about

01:07:15.460 the

01:07:15.620 real

01:07:15.840 world

01:07:16.320 well

01:07:17.100 that

01:07:17.460 seems

01:07:17.760 to

01:07:17.960 me

01:07:18.280 for

01:07:19.500 example

01:07:19.940 let's

01:07:21.680 take our

01:07:22.000 World War

01:07:22.320 II

01:07:22.420 example

01:07:22.780 if

01:07:23.140 Hitler

01:07:24.200 said

01:07:24.700 you know

01:07:25.280 what

01:07:25.600 we've

01:07:26.380 clearly

01:07:26.660 lost

01:07:27.080 the only

01:07:27.500 way to

01:07:27.900 save

01:07:28.120 German

01:07:28.480 civilians

01:07:28.920 from

01:07:29.140 the

01:07:29.300 suffering

01:07:29.600 that's

01:07:29.820 about

01:07:30.020 to

01:07:30.160 be

01:07:30.260 inflicted

01:07:30.700 on

01:07:31.000 them

01:07:31.520 is

01:07:32.040 to

01:07:32.200 do

01:07:32.460 what

01:07:32.860 will

01:07:33.000 eventually

01:07:33.700 happen

01:07:34.020 to me

01:07:34.320 anyway

01:07:34.580 which

01:07:34.800 is

01:07:34.920 hand

01:07:35.100 myself

01:07:35.480 over

01:07:35.740 or

01:07:35.920 kill

01:07:36.060 myself

01:07:36.460 and end

01:07:36.960 this

01:07:37.180 now

01:07:37.500 that

01:07:38.160 would

01:07:38.340 have

01:07:38.460 ended

01:07:38.640 World War

01:07:39.100 II

01:07:39.280 I'm

01:07:39.880 not

01:07:40.080 convinced

01:07:40.580 by the

01:07:40.980 way

01:07:41.200 that

01:07:41.460 will

01:07:41.640 end

01:07:42.500 the

01:07:43.060 situation

01:07:43.660 in

01:07:43.980 Gaza

01:07:44.260 I

01:07:44.700 think

01:07:45.000 Israel

01:07:45.520 has

01:07:47.480 two

01:07:47.980 goals

01:07:48.580 for

01:07:49.000 sure

01:07:49.620 to

01:07:50.420 inflict

01:07:50.980 a

01:07:51.380 military

01:07:51.860 defeat

01:07:52.480 on

01:07:52.920 Gaza

01:07:53.280 and

01:07:54.300 also

01:07:54.980 to

01:07:55.920 once

01:07:56.360 and

01:07:56.640 for

01:07:56.900 all

01:07:57.280 put

01:07:57.800 an

01:07:58.020 end

01:07:58.420 to

01:07:58.740 this

01:07:59.140 Gaza

01:08:00.100 nuisance

01:08:01.380 that's

01:08:02.060 escalated

01:08:04.300 into

01:08:04.900 a

01:08:05.260 real

01:08:05.500 problem

01:08:06.020 So this

01:08:06.300 is what

01:08:06.540 I'm

01:08:06.680 trying

01:08:06.840 to

01:08:06.960 clarify

01:08:07.400 is

01:08:08.240 it

01:08:08.420 your

01:08:08.820 view

01:08:09.300 that

01:08:10.140 if

01:08:10.360 Hamas

01:08:11.700 had

01:08:12.460 handed

01:08:12.860 over

01:08:13.080 the

01:08:13.260 hostages

01:08:13.740 or

01:08:14.100 if

01:08:14.340 today

01:08:14.840 Hamas

01:08:15.560 hands

01:08:16.020 over

01:08:16.200 the

01:08:16.340 hostages

01:08:16.800 and

01:08:17.380 hands

01:08:17.720 over

01:08:18.020 the

01:08:18.560 key

01:08:18.900 perpetrators

01:08:19.600 let's

01:08:19.960 say

01:08:20.120 for the

01:08:20.420 sake

01:08:20.600 of

01:08:20.780 argument

01:08:21.100 of

01:08:21.300 October

01:08:21.620 7th

01:08:22.300 Israel

01:08:22.860 will

01:08:23.160 carry

01:08:23.560 on

01:08:23.860 killing

01:08:24.120 people

01:08:24.480 in

01:08:24.660 Gaza

01:08:24.860 that's

01:08:25.160 your

01:08:25.260 position

01:08:25.480 I

01:08:25.920 would

01:08:26.120 say

01:08:26.600 if

01:08:31.000 they

01:08:31.560 I

01:08:32.840 would

01:08:33.020 say

01:08:33.300 in

01:08:33.520 the

01:08:33.740 real

01:08:34.080 world

01:08:34.680 those

01:08:36.160 two

01:08:36.560 goals

01:08:37.180 can't

01:08:38.040 be

01:08:38.440 disentangled

01:08:39.520 because

01:08:40.400 as you

01:08:41.800 said

01:08:42.140 Hamas

01:08:42.700 was not

01:08:43.200 going to

01:08:43.780 do

01:08:44.240 that

01:08:44.680 and

01:08:46.100 Israel

01:08:46.700 as I

01:08:47.280 said

01:08:47.680 saw

01:08:48.460 October

01:08:49.060 7th

01:08:50.020 as a

01:08:51.400 crisis

01:08:53.100 a disaster

01:08:53.940 for sure

01:08:54.640 and an

01:08:56.040 opportunity

01:08:56.800 and it

01:08:57.900 was going

01:08:58.440 to exploit

01:08:59.260 that

01:08:59.720 opportunity

01:09:00.460 to

01:09:01.500 the

01:09:01.980 hilt

01:09:02.360 now

01:09:03.440 there's

01:09:04.240 a second

01:09:04.680 point

01:09:05.120 and that's

01:09:06.140 going to be

01:09:06.440 responsive to

01:09:07.340 your

01:09:07.680 pressing me

01:09:09.080 on this

01:09:09.420 point

01:09:09.640 which I

01:09:10.080 accept

01:09:10.600 of course

01:09:12.540 I accept

01:09:13.020 it

01:09:13.260 because we

01:09:14.100 have to be

01:09:14.540 honest

01:09:14.860 and truthful

01:09:15.440 in these

01:09:15.820 matters

01:09:16.160 let's say

01:09:17.960 Hamas

01:09:18.500 did do

01:09:19.300 what you

01:09:19.900 said

01:09:20.200 okay

01:09:21.140 what would

01:09:22.680 happen

01:09:23.140 it would

01:09:24.740 be a

01:09:25.100 return

01:09:25.700 to the

01:09:27.000 status quo

01:09:27.940 anti

01:09:28.540 it would

01:09:30.060 be a

01:09:30.680 return

01:09:31.280 to

01:09:32.600 the

01:09:33.440 people

01:09:33.800 in Gaza

01:09:34.460 being

01:09:35.960 confined

01:09:36.680 I know

01:09:37.100 you don't

01:09:37.400 want to

01:09:37.660 hear about

01:09:38.100 it

01:09:38.240 because

01:09:38.460 you said

01:09:38.780 you've

01:09:38.980 already

01:09:39.200 gone

01:09:39.660 through

01:09:39.880 this

01:09:40.080 with

01:09:40.260 last

01:09:40.520 year

01:09:40.800 but

01:09:41.740 the

01:09:41.900 people

01:09:42.260 of

01:09:42.480 Gaza

01:09:42.860 it's

01:09:43.380 not that

01:09:43.680 I don't

01:09:43.900 want to

01:09:45.740 hear

01:09:45.920 about

01:09:46.200 it

01:09:46.380 it's

01:09:46.820 that

01:09:46.980 we

01:09:47.240 accept

01:09:47.660 that

01:09:47.880 for

01:09:48.020 the

01:09:48.160 sake

01:09:48.360 of

01:09:48.520 argument

01:09:48.760 and

01:09:49.300 I

01:09:49.400 don't

01:09:49.560 want

01:09:49.700 to

01:09:49.800 waste

01:09:50.000 time

01:09:50.600 the

01:09:50.620 problem

01:09:50.860 is

01:09:51.180 I

01:09:52.040 don't

01:09:52.480 want

01:09:52.660 to

01:09:52.800 fault

01:09:53.040 you

01:09:53.200 because

01:09:53.620 there's

01:09:55.340 no

01:09:55.500 reason

01:09:55.820 to

01:09:56.640 doubt

01:09:58.160 good

01:09:58.440 faith

01:09:58.860 unless

01:09:59.220 there's

01:09:59.480 evidence

01:10:00.000 of

01:10:00.540 bad

01:10:00.840 faith

01:10:01.200 so

01:10:01.460 I'm

01:10:01.600 going

01:10:01.720 to

01:10:01.820 accept

01:10:02.100 good

01:10:02.360 faith

01:10:02.620 but

01:10:03.140 you

01:10:03.300 understand

01:10:03.900 let's

01:10:04.680 say

01:10:04.880 this

01:10:05.180 particular

01:10:06.060 interview

01:10:06.540 goes

01:10:07.160 to

01:10:07.340 a

01:10:07.480 million

01:10:07.720 people

01:10:08.180 right

01:10:08.560 maybe

01:10:09.680 a

01:10:09.900 hundred

01:10:10.180 thousand

01:10:10.740 of

01:10:10.960 those

01:10:11.220 million

01:10:11.460 or

01:10:11.620 even

01:10:11.820 ten

01:10:12.100 thousand

01:10:12.480 know

01:10:13.160 about

01:10:13.640 before

01:10:14.280 October

01:10:14.760 7th

01:10:15.700 so

01:10:15.880 when

01:10:16.060 you

01:10:16.240 say

01:10:16.520 I

01:10:16.860 accepted

01:10:17.500 for

01:10:17.780 the

01:10:17.940 sake

01:10:18.200 of

01:10:18.360 argument

01:10:18.940 99%

01:10:20.580 of

01:10:20.880 the

01:10:21.060 viewers

01:10:21.640 won't

01:10:22.180 know

01:10:22.540 what

01:10:22.800 you

01:10:22.960 have

01:10:23.120 accepted

01:10:23.660 okay

01:10:23.960 in

01:10:24.220 that

01:10:24.380 case

01:10:25.820 why don't

01:10:26.040 you

01:10:26.200 tell

01:10:26.440 us

01:10:26.620 which

01:10:26.980 interview

01:10:27.400 you

01:10:27.620 have

01:10:27.800 done

01:10:28.100 that

01:10:28.320 best

01:10:28.680 describes

01:10:29.280 the

01:10:29.460 Palestinian

01:10:30.260 people

01:10:30.640 and we

01:10:31.300 will put

01:10:31.720 a pop-up

01:10:32.480 right here

01:10:33.080 on YouTube

01:10:34.260 that they can

01:10:34.820 go and watch

01:10:35.240 that what's

01:10:35.640 the best

01:10:35.960 interview

01:10:36.240 so people

01:10:38.720 can go and watch

01:10:39.380 the Candace Owens

01:10:40.020 interview to get

01:10:40.880 the detail of

01:10:41.660 what you're

01:10:41.940 talking about

01:10:42.460 okay

01:10:42.800 if

01:10:44.660 Hamas

01:10:46.640 were to

01:10:47.140 lay down

01:10:47.520 its arms

01:10:48.160 and for

01:10:48.620 argument's

01:10:49.220 sake

01:10:49.420 let's say

01:10:50.020 that would

01:10:50.900 preempt

01:10:51.560 the possibility

01:10:52.840 of Israel

01:10:53.780 executing

01:10:54.880 its other

01:10:56.320 goal

01:10:56.780 which is

01:10:57.840 to solve

01:10:59.400 the Gaza

01:11:00.300 question

01:11:00.860 what does

01:11:01.720 that mean

01:11:02.300 it means

01:11:03.500 that we

01:11:03.940 return to

01:11:04.620 the status

01:11:05.200 quo

01:11:05.560 anti

01:11:05.980 the people

01:11:07.240 of Gaza

01:11:07.900 half of

01:11:08.540 whom are

01:11:08.900 children

01:11:09.260 will be

01:11:10.260 confined

01:11:10.840 in that

01:11:11.300 same

01:11:11.640 concentration

01:11:12.460 camp

01:11:12.960 probably

01:11:13.980 it'll be

01:11:14.680 more brutal

01:11:15.440 than ever

01:11:16.140 the blockade

01:11:17.180 will be

01:11:17.980 more brutal

01:11:18.820 than ever

01:11:19.380 because of

01:11:19.920 what happened

01:11:20.500 on October 7th

01:11:21.860 and then

01:11:22.460 the people

01:11:23.000 of Gaza

01:11:23.620 will be

01:11:24.440 left

01:11:25.020 in that

01:11:26.120 concentration

01:11:26.960 camp

01:11:27.440 to languish

01:11:28.780 and die

01:11:29.560 I don't

01:11:30.780 think that's

01:11:31.280 acceptable

01:11:31.820 I don't

01:11:33.520 do you think

01:11:33.880 if they keep

01:11:34.280 fighting

01:11:34.620 they're going

01:11:34.960 to get

01:11:35.140 a better

01:11:35.380 deal

01:11:35.660 I would

01:11:37.100 say

01:11:37.560 with a

01:11:39.280 long

01:11:39.620 life

01:11:40.200 experience

01:11:41.080 politics

01:11:42.220 is wholly

01:11:43.480 unpredictable

01:11:44.980 who would

01:11:46.340 have guessed

01:11:47.000 just to give

01:11:47.840 you two

01:11:48.180 examples

01:11:48.720 who would

01:11:50.080 have guessed

01:11:50.700 that

01:11:52.020 South Africa

01:11:53.440 would rise

01:11:55.040 to the

01:11:55.400 challenge

01:11:56.020 confront

01:11:57.420 the United

01:11:57.940 States

01:11:58.540 because the

01:11:59.240 U.S.

01:11:59.500 is enabling

01:12:00.080 the whole

01:12:00.520 thing

01:12:00.820 and go

01:12:02.320 to the

01:12:02.580 International

01:12:04.280 Court of

01:12:04.960 Justice

01:12:05.300 and go

01:12:06.440 to bat

01:12:06.880 for a

01:12:07.420 poor

01:12:08.500 powerless

01:12:09.960 stateless

01:12:11.380 people

01:12:11.920 totally

01:12:12.940 unpredictable

01:12:13.680 who would

01:12:15.080 have guessed

01:12:15.560 that the

01:12:15.960 vote in

01:12:16.400 the court

01:12:17.020 was 15

01:12:19.560 to 2

01:12:20.180 I was

01:12:21.460 asked many

01:12:22.040 times before

01:12:23.160 I said

01:12:23.960 forget it

01:12:25.180 there's no

01:12:26.760 possibility

01:12:27.600 the court's

01:12:28.700 going to

01:12:29.000 find in

01:12:29.540 Gaza's

01:12:31.080 favor

01:12:31.380 or South

01:12:32.000 Africa's

01:12:32.540 favor

01:12:32.780 who would

01:12:34.000 have guessed

01:12:34.640 with young

01:12:36.620 people

01:12:37.260 facing

01:12:39.140 very

01:12:40.340 formidable

01:12:41.360 redoubtable

01:12:44.240 challenges

01:12:45.380 daunting

01:12:46.000 challenges

01:12:46.920 climate

01:12:48.000 change

01:12:48.900 mass

01:12:51.040 I call

01:12:53.540 mass

01:12:53.860 unemployment

01:12:54.360 because I

01:12:54.820 don't consider

01:12:55.280 the gig

01:12:55.680 economy

01:12:56.120 real

01:12:56.520 employment

01:12:57.020 student

01:13:00.080 debt

01:13:00.760 piled so

01:13:02.800 high

01:13:03.240 in the

01:13:04.400 midst of

01:13:04.920 all of

01:13:05.540 those

01:13:05.840 challenges

01:13:06.420 the young

01:13:08.360 people

01:13:08.980 on all

01:13:10.560 the college

01:13:11.180 campuses

01:13:11.740 seized

01:13:13.380 upon

01:13:13.880 Gaza

01:13:14.400 a poor

01:13:16.400 powerless

01:13:17.740 stateless

01:13:18.640 people

01:13:19.220 halfway

01:13:20.420 around

01:13:20.860 the world

01:13:21.460 they had

01:13:22.380 no dog

01:13:23.300 you said

01:13:24.540 most of them

01:13:25.080 are from the

01:13:25.480 Middle East

01:13:25.960 well

01:13:27.100 they clearly

01:13:27.600 have a dog

01:13:28.140 the encampments

01:13:29.420 are from

01:13:30.100 but the

01:13:30.860 campus sentiment

01:13:32.060 if you look at

01:13:33.100 for example

01:13:33.680 I was at

01:13:34.080 MIT

01:13:34.500 when they

01:13:35.860 uphold the

01:13:37.200 students

01:13:37.900 on

01:13:39.020 whether they

01:13:40.500 support

01:13:40.980 divestment

01:13:41.920 from the

01:13:43.320 university

01:13:43.740 because that's

01:13:44.140 one of the

01:13:44.500 demands

01:13:44.860 the numbers

01:13:46.280 are up to

01:13:46.820 60 and

01:13:47.480 70 percent

01:13:48.320 I was very

01:13:49.540 surprised

01:13:50.180 I was very

01:13:51.740 surprised

01:13:52.360 politics

01:13:53.320 very unpredictable

01:13:55.180 so when you

01:13:56.120 ask me

01:13:56.720 could they

01:13:57.560 have done

01:13:58.020 better

01:13:58.440 I can't

01:14:00.240 say it

01:14:01.000 I can't

01:14:02.100 answer that

01:14:02.720 I did

01:14:03.700 I'm very

01:14:05.360 interested in

01:14:05.940 talking to

01:14:06.460 people from

01:14:07.680 Gaza

01:14:07.940 young people

01:14:08.760 and I

01:14:10.220 asked them

01:14:10.740 I asked them

01:14:11.160 over and

01:14:11.640 over again

01:14:12.140 what is

01:14:12.820 the feeling

01:14:13.460 and they

01:14:14.900 said to

01:14:15.440 me

01:14:15.760 we all

01:14:17.720 knew

01:14:18.640 something

01:14:20.040 had to

01:14:21.200 happen

01:14:21.820 something

01:14:23.560 had to

01:14:24.920 give

01:14:25.340 I don't

01:14:27.060 want to

01:14:27.340 be dramatic

01:14:28.000 I'm trying

01:14:28.760 to be

01:14:29.080 faithful

01:14:29.660 to the

01:14:30.180 facts

01:14:30.660 if you're

01:14:32.280 born into

01:14:33.020 a concentration

01:14:33.820 camp

01:14:34.560 if you

01:14:36.880 live in

01:14:37.520 it

01:14:37.840 60 percent

01:14:39.140 of the

01:14:39.540 young people

01:14:40.100 in Gaza

01:14:40.720 were unemployed

01:14:42.340 because Israel

01:14:44.120 shattered

01:14:44.760 the economy

01:14:45.820 there's no

01:14:47.640 exports from

01:14:48.440 Gaza

01:14:48.720 except

01:14:49.100 occasionally

01:14:49.680 a few

01:14:50.080 strawberries

01:14:50.600 they don't

01:14:51.060 allow it

01:14:51.620 if 80

01:14:53.620 percent

01:14:54.380 of the

01:14:55.220 population

01:14:55.900 is dependent

01:14:57.460 on government

01:14:58.220 handouts

01:14:59.060 if 50

01:15:01.240 percent

01:15:01.920 are

01:15:02.880 insecure

01:15:03.960 food

01:15:06.740 insecure

01:15:07.360 as the

01:15:07.940 term goes

01:15:08.640 the head

01:15:09.900 of the

01:15:10.180 UN

01:15:10.560 Gutierrez

01:15:11.260 is no

01:15:11.680 radical

01:15:12.140 he said

01:15:13.760 in May

01:15:14.960 20th

01:15:16.020 2021

01:15:16.800 before

01:15:18.020 October 7th

01:15:19.640 he said

01:15:20.060 if you

01:15:20.400 want

01:15:21.080 a hell

01:15:22.740 on earth

01:15:23.860 those are

01:15:24.340 his words

01:15:24.960 if you

01:15:25.980 want

01:15:26.500 a hell

01:15:27.300 on earth

01:15:28.100 go look

01:15:30.020 at the

01:15:30.300 children

01:15:30.660 in Gaza

01:15:31.340 that's what

01:15:32.220 he said

01:15:32.640 that's a

01:15:33.120 quote

01:15:33.480 something

01:15:35.820 had

01:15:37.060 to give

01:15:38.180 so

01:15:39.920 in the

01:15:41.580 face of

01:15:42.320 that

01:15:42.820 and were

01:15:44.700 there

01:15:45.240 a Hamas

01:15:46.460 surrender

01:15:47.220 it would

01:15:48.980 just be

01:15:49.760 a return

01:15:51.060 to that

01:15:51.500 concentration

01:15:52.320 camp

01:15:52.780 probably

01:15:54.760 I don't

01:15:56.820 want to be

01:15:57.220 exaggerating

01:15:57.960 but let's

01:15:58.640 call it

01:15:59.000 I'll say

01:15:59.280 a thousand

01:15:59.820 times

01:16:00.360 but let's

01:16:00.760 just call

01:16:01.120 it

01:16:01.280 significantly

01:16:02.300 worse

01:16:03.760 than that

01:16:05.460 human

01:16:06.160 rubbish

01:16:07.120 sheep

01:16:07.560 so when

01:16:09.740 you say

01:16:10.180 to me

01:16:10.720 can they

01:16:11.560 do better

01:16:12.280 death

01:16:13.580 is death

01:16:14.400 nothing

01:16:15.660 can bring

01:16:16.220 back

01:16:16.720 those

01:16:17.520 35,000

01:16:19.100 who were

01:16:19.520 killed

01:16:19.960 I recognize

01:16:21.060 that

01:16:21.640 there is

01:16:22.760 no silver

01:16:23.860 lining

01:16:24.600 in a

01:16:25.360 genocide

01:16:25.920 period

01:16:27.460 full

01:16:28.320 stop

01:16:29.020 it would

01:16:29.940 be an

01:16:30.300 utter

01:16:30.660 betrayal

01:16:31.360 of my

01:16:32.500 parents

01:16:33.080 and my

01:16:33.460 family

01:16:34.020 were I

01:16:35.040 to try

01:16:35.560 to discern

01:16:36.440 or espy

01:16:37.620 a silver

01:16:38.800 lining

01:16:39.320 in what's

01:16:41.000 happened

01:16:41.560 there

01:16:42.000 and if

01:16:42.900 you want

01:16:43.240 to hold

01:16:43.960 Hamas

01:16:44.860 accountable

01:16:45.620 for it

01:16:46.260 I'm not

01:16:47.580 going to

01:16:48.200 I won't

01:16:49.620 we've had

01:16:50.200 that

01:16:50.440 discussion

01:16:51.340 what I

01:16:52.200 will say

01:16:52.900 is

01:16:53.320 if the

01:16:54.280 people

01:16:54.780 of Gaza

01:16:55.680 want to

01:16:57.320 take a

01:16:57.900 roll of

01:16:58.500 the dice

01:16:59.060 and maybe

01:17:01.100 life

01:17:02.440 for some

01:17:03.500 of them

01:17:03.920 will be

01:17:05.640 better

01:17:06.100 far be

01:17:08.180 it for

01:17:08.540 me to

01:17:09.140 tell them

01:17:09.540 not to

01:17:09.980 try

01:17:10.300 Norman

01:17:11.760 we're

01:17:12.460 missing

01:17:12.720 a part

01:17:13.060 of the

01:17:13.280 puzzle

01:17:13.540 here

01:17:13.860 which is

01:17:14.320 also

01:17:14.820 Iran

01:17:15.420 and the

01:17:17.740 fundamentalist

01:17:18.500 regime

01:17:19.060 there

01:17:19.380 which is

01:17:20.440 intent

01:17:20.960 on

01:17:21.360 obliterating

01:17:22.380 Israel

01:17:22.940 which is

01:17:23.740 intent

01:17:24.200 on funding

01:17:25.180 terrorist

01:17:26.040 organisations

01:17:27.000 around the

01:17:28.720 Middle East

01:17:29.300 if we're

01:17:31.140 talking

01:17:31.540 about

01:17:32.340 Israel's

01:17:33.600 retaliation

01:17:34.460 and your

01:17:36.100 argument that

01:17:36.860 it's what they're

01:17:37.800 committing are war crimes

01:17:38.900 Iran needs to

01:17:40.380 take some

01:17:40.860 responsibility

01:17:41.420 for this

01:17:42.080 as well

01:17:42.460 for stoking

01:17:43.220 the fires

01:17:43.880 and for

01:17:45.000 basically

01:17:46.940 helping this

01:17:48.000 situation to

01:17:48.740 come about

01:17:49.160 as well

01:17:49.540 surely

01:17:49.960 let's start

01:17:53.700 with the

01:17:54.040 factual

01:17:54.380 question

01:17:54.980 there seems

01:17:56.240 to be a

01:17:56.820 broad

01:17:57.080 consensus

01:17:57.700 among all

01:17:59.100 intelligence

01:17:59.740 agencies

01:18:00.380 including

01:18:00.860 Israeli

01:18:01.400 that

01:18:03.280 Hamas

01:18:04.120 excuse me

01:18:04.780 Hamas

01:18:05.320 did not

01:18:06.160 inform

01:18:06.820 Hezbollah

01:18:08.120 or Iran

01:18:09.280 of its

01:18:10.180 plan

01:18:10.600 on October

01:18:11.680 7th

01:18:12.600 so far as

01:18:13.380 I've read

01:18:14.180 and I've read

01:18:14.760 a lot

01:18:15.120 but I can't

01:18:15.700 say I've read

01:18:16.040 exhaustively

01:18:16.760 but I've read

01:18:17.540 a lot

01:18:17.960 nobody

01:18:19.100 so far as

01:18:20.000 I've read

01:18:20.540 makes the

01:18:21.520 claim

01:18:21.940 that

01:18:22.720 Hamas

01:18:23.260 excuse me

01:18:23.880 that Iran

01:18:24.760 was

01:18:25.780 directly

01:18:26.700 responsible

01:18:27.780 now

01:18:28.980 you might

01:18:29.700 say

01:18:30.120 what about

01:18:30.720 indirectly

01:18:31.520 responsible

01:18:32.400 so

01:18:33.480 here's how

01:18:35.200 I see

01:18:35.700 it

01:18:35.980 and we

01:18:36.520 of course

01:18:36.980 can

01:18:37.260 disagree

01:18:37.840 and you

01:18:38.240 should

01:18:38.380 press

01:18:38.700 me

01:18:38.960 it's

01:18:41.500 like

01:18:41.680 saying

01:18:42.180 the

01:18:44.460 the

01:18:45.780 Palestinians

01:18:47.220 or the

01:18:48.200 Gazans

01:18:48.760 the

01:18:49.000 Gazans

01:18:50.260 they hate

01:18:51.840 Israel

01:18:53.260 because

01:18:54.260 of

01:18:55.180 the

01:18:56.100 Hamas

01:18:56.740 propaganda

01:18:57.420 in those

01:18:58.340 UNRWA

01:18:58.880 schools

01:18:59.600 okay

01:19:00.340 now of course

01:19:01.020 the claim

01:19:01.460 about propaganda

01:19:02.480 on UNRWA schools

01:19:03.220 is nonsense

01:19:03.880 let's say

01:19:04.580 it's even

01:19:04.940 true

01:19:05.240 okay

01:19:05.820 they say

01:19:06.740 look at

01:19:07.120 these

01:19:07.360 videos

01:19:08.140 that Hamas

01:19:10.100 puts out

01:19:10.760 on its

01:19:11.240 television

01:19:11.760 network

01:19:12.700 okay

01:19:13.340 and

01:19:14.740 where

01:19:15.320 children

01:19:15.740 are taught

01:19:16.340 that Jews

01:19:16.980 are pigs

01:19:17.380 and should

01:19:18.060 be killed

01:19:18.480 and all

01:19:18.760 right

01:19:18.960 right

01:19:19.240 okay

01:19:19.800 okay

01:19:20.600 let's assume

01:19:22.080 I'm not

01:19:23.340 going to get

01:19:23.700 into the

01:19:24.080 question

01:19:24.540 about the

01:19:25.040 translations

01:19:25.640 I don't

01:19:26.440 know about

01:19:26.980 it

01:19:27.200 and references

01:19:27.880 to the

01:19:28.380 Quran

01:19:28.500 let's say

01:19:28.900 it's true

01:19:29.300 let's say

01:19:30.020 it's true

01:19:30.460 I think

01:19:31.760 to myself

01:19:32.500 do you

01:19:35.640 really need

01:19:36.240 to be

01:19:36.600 educated

01:19:37.220 about how

01:19:39.200 horrible

01:19:39.780 Israel is

01:19:40.720 by

01:19:42.120 Sesame Street

01:19:43.920 like

01:19:44.220 programs

01:19:44.940 you don't

01:19:46.820 know from

01:19:47.560 your daily

01:19:48.260 experience

01:19:49.440 do you know

01:19:50.940 what those

01:19:51.420 mowings

01:19:52.280 of the

01:19:53.040 lawn

01:19:53.480 what they

01:19:54.480 look like

01:19:55.340 I do

01:19:56.780 and here

01:19:58.260 I'm going

01:19:58.900 to claim

01:19:59.920 a certain

01:20:01.240 kind of

01:20:01.840 high ground

01:20:02.760 and expertise

01:20:03.840 I know

01:20:06.180 Operation

01:20:07.480 Cast

01:20:07.960 led

01:20:08.360 2008 to

01:20:10.220 9

01:20:10.560 I read

01:20:12.100 there were

01:20:12.460 hundreds

01:20:13.740 believe it

01:20:14.440 or not

01:20:14.960 hundreds

01:20:16.080 of human

01:20:17.120 rights

01:20:17.460 reports

01:20:18.020 on it

01:20:19.400 I read

01:20:20.320 them all

01:20:20.800 I read

01:20:22.180 them twice

01:20:22.840 I know

01:20:24.660 about

01:20:25.160 the

01:20:26.560 1400

01:20:28.500 people

01:20:29.280 killed

01:20:29.760 1200

01:20:30.300 of them

01:20:30.940 children

01:20:31.500 excuse me

01:20:33.140 1200

01:20:33.500 of them

01:20:34.040 civilians

01:20:34.820 350

01:20:36.140 of them

01:20:36.940 children

01:20:37.380 I know

01:20:38.840 about the

01:20:39.420 6300

01:20:40.640 homes

01:20:41.540 which were

01:20:42.020 damaged

01:20:42.460 or destroyed

01:20:43.300 in Gaza

01:20:44.280 I know

01:20:45.820 Pillar of

01:20:46.500 Defense

01:20:47.100 I know

01:20:48.540 Protective

01:20:49.260 Edge

01:20:49.760 which Peter

01:20:51.160 Moorer

01:20:51.780 the head

01:20:53.260 of the

01:20:53.580 International

01:20:54.180 Committee

01:20:54.740 of the

01:20:55.120 Red Cross

01:20:55.800 described

01:20:56.260 he said

01:20:57.060 after touring

01:20:57.920 Gaza

01:20:59.020 in the

01:21:00.540 aftermath

01:21:00.980 of

01:21:01.680 Protective

01:21:02.360 Edge

01:21:02.660 he said

01:21:03.580 never

01:21:04.040 in my

01:21:04.580 career

01:21:05.120 have I

01:21:06.400 seen

01:21:06.760 destruction

01:21:07.680 on the

01:21:09.100 scale

01:21:09.680 of what

01:21:10.780 I saw

01:21:11.460 in Gaza

01:21:12.660 I know

01:21:15.040 what it

01:21:15.340 was like

01:21:16.120 admittedly

01:21:17.520 intellectually

01:21:18.460 through books

01:21:19.580 but I know

01:21:20.820 and reports

01:21:21.760 but I know

01:21:22.700 the details

01:21:23.480 you don't

01:21:24.640 need

01:21:25.320 a sesame

01:21:26.920 a Hamas

01:21:27.880 sesame

01:21:28.300 streak

01:21:28.820 I don't

01:21:29.680 think that's

01:21:30.100 the point

01:21:30.440 people make

01:21:30.920 about it

01:21:31.340 sorry

01:21:32.240 could I

01:21:33.100 just interrupt

01:21:33.760 you're saying

01:21:34.760 it's Iran

01:21:36.180 sorry

01:21:36.920 can I

01:21:37.920 just interrupt

01:21:38.560 it's Iran

01:21:39.060 that's

01:21:39.680 fomenting

01:21:40.540 the problem

01:21:41.780 in Gaza

01:21:42.420 no

01:21:43.300 it's the

01:21:44.020 concentration

01:21:44.660 camp

01:21:45.440 that's

01:21:46.200 fomenting

01:21:46.940 the rage

01:21:48.080 in Gaza

01:21:48.660 also

01:21:49.200 Iran

01:21:50.000 who are

01:21:50.800 who are

01:21:52.400 also

01:21:52.900 making

01:21:53.940 this

01:21:54.260 situation

01:21:54.840 worse

01:21:55.260 Ayatollah

01:21:55.920 Khamenei

01:21:56.360 is not

01:21:56.840 interested

01:21:57.520 in peace

01:21:58.300 in the

01:21:58.960 Middle East

01:21:59.400 Ayatollah

01:22:00.400 Khamenei

01:22:00.880 is interested

01:22:01.680 in wiping

01:22:02.320 Israelis

01:22:02.900 off the

01:22:03.580 map

01:22:03.760 and every

01:22:04.380 Jew

01:22:04.700 this is

01:22:05.540 a

01:22:06.140 fundamentalist

01:22:07.280 Islamic

01:22:07.700 fundamentalist

01:22:08.600 and

01:22:09.240 rabidly

01:22:10.200 anti-Semitic

01:22:11.180 regime

01:22:11.660 so my

01:22:12.400 point is

01:22:13.080 that what

01:22:13.520 they are

01:22:13.900 doing

01:22:14.280 is creating

01:22:15.320 ever more

01:22:15.980 animosity

01:22:16.700 maybe they

01:22:17.580 are and

01:22:18.220 states have

01:22:18.920 their own

01:22:19.340 raison d'etat

01:22:20.080 I'm not

01:22:20.640 going to

01:22:20.880 deny that

01:22:21.480 I don't

01:22:22.060 live in a

01:22:22.700 never

01:22:23.900 never land

01:22:24.600 but

01:22:25.520 here's what

01:22:27.500 I would

01:22:27.820 say

01:22:28.220 number one

01:22:30.060 well I

01:22:30.600 have to

01:22:30.940 say

01:22:31.300 several

01:22:31.980 things

01:22:32.440 because I

01:22:33.600 want to

01:22:33.760 be truthful

01:22:34.200 to the

01:22:34.560 whole

01:22:34.740 record

01:22:35.080 number

01:22:36.360 one

01:22:36.900 if you

01:22:38.080 look at

01:22:38.440 the

01:22:38.620 UN

01:22:39.040 record

01:22:39.760 on

01:22:40.720 a

01:22:40.980 two

01:22:41.180 state

01:22:41.480 settlement

01:22:41.880 every

01:22:42.260 year

01:22:42.560 there's

01:22:42.820 a

01:22:42.940 UN

01:22:43.120 resolution

01:22:43.640 called

01:22:43.980 peaceful

01:22:44.300 settlement

01:22:44.720 of the

01:22:45.040 Palestine

01:22:45.380 question

01:22:45.920 okay

01:22:46.820 the entire

01:22:48.260 world

01:22:48.760 votes for

01:22:49.360 two

01:22:49.600 states

01:22:50.060 in the

01:22:50.660 general

01:22:50.880 assembly

01:22:51.240 now

01:22:51.440 not the

01:22:51.760 security

01:22:52.040 council

01:22:52.400 so we

01:22:52.740 are talking

01:22:53.000 about the

01:22:53.260 entire

01:22:53.520 world

01:22:53.780 the entire

01:22:54.740 world

01:22:55.140 votes for

01:22:55.640 two

01:22:55.880 states

01:22:56.320 on the

01:22:56.640 June

01:22:56.800 67

01:22:57.280 border

01:22:57.920 except

01:22:58.820 Israel

01:22:59.420 the United

01:22:59.920 States

01:23:00.380 and some

01:23:00.860 Pacific

01:23:01.580 Islands

01:23:02.020 Tuvalu

01:23:03.640 Tuvalu

01:23:05.880 the others

01:23:06.680 will come

01:23:07.440 to mind

01:23:07.840 Iran is

01:23:10.240 with the

01:23:10.520 majority

01:23:11.040 Iran votes

01:23:12.840 with the

01:23:13.120 majority

01:23:13.600 the

01:23:15.080 organization

01:23:15.720 of the

01:23:16.360 Islamic

01:23:16.800 Conference

01:23:17.380 the OIC

01:23:18.160 it's 57

01:23:19.240 Islamic

01:23:19.740 countries

01:23:20.300 they

01:23:21.660 supported

01:23:22.340 the two

01:23:23.180 state

01:23:23.500 settlement

01:23:23.960 Iran

01:23:25.040 voted

01:23:25.520 with the

01:23:25.900 majority

01:23:26.400 do they

01:23:27.260 dislike

01:23:27.760 Israel

01:23:28.180 no question

01:23:29.200 in my

01:23:29.480 mind

01:23:29.800 no question

01:23:30.960 in my

01:23:31.240 mind

01:23:31.460 about that

01:23:31.940 would they

01:23:32.500 like it

01:23:32.860 to disappear

01:23:33.540 yeah I

01:23:34.220 think so

01:23:34.720 and I'm

01:23:35.400 going to

01:23:35.560 return to

01:23:36.000 that question

01:23:36.680 in the

01:23:37.100 moment

01:23:37.520 so just

01:23:38.060 remind me

01:23:38.560 to get

01:23:38.820 back to

01:23:39.180 that

01:23:39.320 because I'm

01:23:40.100 not going

01:23:40.440 to deny

01:23:41.120 facts

01:23:41.580 I have a

01:23:42.440 credo in

01:23:42.940 life I

01:23:43.340 coined it

01:23:43.900 never quarrel

01:23:45.040 with facts

01:23:45.620 you know

01:23:46.540 or as

01:23:47.140 Lenin liked

01:23:47.740 to say

01:23:48.200 he liked to

01:23:48.640 quote the

01:23:49.060 British

01:23:49.340 proverb

01:23:49.800 facts are

01:23:51.280 stubborn

01:23:51.700 things

01:23:52.200 and I

01:23:53.400 turned that

01:23:53.880 into never

01:23:54.520 quarrel

01:23:54.940 with facts

01:23:55.480 so I'm

01:23:56.340 not going

01:23:56.640 to quarrel

01:23:57.460 so first

01:23:59.120 of all

01:23:59.540 that has

01:24:00.560 been the

01:24:01.760 Iranian

01:24:02.280 position

01:24:02.960 formally now

01:24:04.180 you may

01:24:04.480 tell you

01:24:04.720 when it

01:24:04.900 comes down

01:24:05.280 to brass

01:24:05.700 tax they're

01:24:06.200 not going

01:24:06.560 to sign

01:24:07.180 on

01:24:07.360 and the

01:24:07.760 funding

01:24:08.120 that they

01:24:08.600 give to

01:24:09.620 terrorist

01:24:10.120 organizations

01:24:11.020 so on the

01:24:11.760 one hand

01:24:12.180 you can be

01:24:12.960 forward facing

01:24:13.860 and say yes

01:24:14.440 we agree

01:24:14.820 with this

01:24:15.220 behind it

01:24:16.860 you're doing

01:24:17.500 something pretty

01:24:18.080 dodgy

01:24:18.480 okay

01:24:18.800 I'd like

01:24:19.660 you to

01:24:19.940 hold that

01:24:20.380 question

01:24:20.740 because I

01:24:21.000 want to

01:24:21.240 respond

01:24:21.620 to it

01:24:22.120 number

01:24:24.320 two

01:24:24.800 now I

01:24:25.680 know this

01:24:26.080 is

01:24:26.360 I'll be

01:24:27.000 accused

01:24:27.400 of what

01:24:27.840 aboutism

01:24:28.560 as that

01:24:29.200 expression

01:24:29.640 is now

01:24:30.160 used

01:24:30.520 or that

01:24:30.840 locution

01:24:31.380 what aboutism

01:24:32.120 take a

01:24:33.360 very sane

01:24:34.080 a very sane

01:24:35.100 Israeli

01:24:35.520 historian

01:24:36.200 Benny Morris

01:24:37.360 he's Israel's

01:24:38.220 chief historian

01:24:39.060 educated

01:24:39.660 at Cambridge

01:24:40.360 written

01:24:41.080 very solid

01:24:42.900 history

01:24:43.680 of the

01:24:43.940 Israel

01:24:44.240 Palestine

01:24:44.700 conflict

01:24:45.280 he's come

01:24:46.740 out for

01:24:47.140 nuking

01:24:47.520 Iran

01:24:47.960 yes

01:24:49.580 he has

01:24:50.200 said

01:24:50.520 literally

01:24:51.240 if the

01:24:52.400 United

01:24:52.740 States

01:24:53.400 does not

01:24:54.420 join

01:24:55.100 in a

01:24:56.000 conventional

01:24:56.600 war with

01:24:57.420 Israel

01:24:58.000 against

01:24:59.240 Iran

01:24:59.860 we should

01:25:01.660 use

01:25:02.500 I'm

01:25:02.840 quoting him

01:25:03.600 unconventional

01:25:05.180 weapons

01:25:06.120 against

01:25:06.900 Iran

01:25:07.380 nuclear

01:25:07.860 weapons

01:25:08.360 unconventional

01:25:09.020 is the

01:25:09.440 euphemism

01:25:09.880 for

01:25:10.240 nuclear

01:25:10.800 weapons

01:25:11.240 and he

01:25:12.660 says

01:25:13.020 and then

01:25:13.580 he asks

01:25:14.360 himself

01:25:14.720 the question

01:25:15.220 what about

01:25:16.080 all the

01:25:17.160 innocents

01:25:17.880 that are

01:25:18.620 going to

01:25:19.040 be killed

01:25:19.600 and you

01:25:20.920 know what

01:25:21.140 he says

01:25:21.720 they elected

01:25:23.760 that government

01:25:24.580 they deserve

01:25:26.260 their fate

01:25:27.080 so when you

01:25:28.760 talk about

01:25:29.640 the

01:25:31.140 Iranians

01:25:32.640 want to

01:25:33.160 wipe out

01:25:33.740 Israel

01:25:34.240 we ought

01:25:35.320 not also

01:25:36.120 to forget

01:25:36.780 that even

01:25:37.900 the sanest

01:25:39.160 most sober

01:25:40.240 of Israelis

01:25:41.340 she's not

01:25:42.820 in charge

01:25:43.260 of Israel

01:25:43.700 he's

01:25:47.860 speaking to

01:25:48.600 a broad

01:25:49.240 consensus

01:25:50.000 as are

01:25:50.680 you

01:25:50.860 you're

01:25:51.440 speaking to

01:25:52.020 a consensus

01:25:52.540 of people

01:25:52.940 it doesn't

01:25:53.240 mean you're

01:25:53.580 in charge

01:25:53.860 of the

01:25:54.100 United

01:25:54.300 States

01:25:54.540 I'm not

01:25:54.880 saying in

01:25:55.360 charge

01:25:55.760 I'm

01:25:56.000 saying in

01:25:57.060 the Israeli

01:25:57.840 mindset

01:25:59.060 especially

01:26:01.320 the leadership

01:26:02.220 they would

01:26:03.500 like to

01:26:03.920 wipe out

01:26:04.500 Iran

01:26:04.660 this is a

01:26:05.580 false

01:26:05.780 equivalence

01:26:06.300 hold on a

01:26:06.920 second

01:26:07.040 Ayatollah

01:26:07.640 Khamenei

01:26:08.160 what Francis

01:26:09.200 is saying

01:26:09.680 is funding

01:26:10.680 and giving

01:26:11.360 aid

01:26:11.720 to terrorist

01:26:12.380 organizations

01:26:12.580 that's the

01:26:12.920 third question

01:26:13.480 no no

01:26:13.920 it's the

01:26:14.220 same question

01:26:14.840 the comparison

01:26:16.620 you've made

01:26:17.100 is false

01:26:17.560 what Francis

01:26:18.380 is saying

01:26:18.880 is here's

01:26:19.880 a state

01:26:20.520 in Iran

01:26:21.200 that is

01:26:21.780 funding

01:26:22.140 and aiding

01:26:22.920 terrorism

01:26:23.500 and you've

01:26:24.320 said

01:26:24.580 well what

01:26:25.200 about the

01:26:25.640 fact that

01:26:26.060 an Israeli

01:26:26.520 historian

01:26:27.060 wants to

01:26:27.640 no no

01:26:28.140 no one

01:26:28.680 in Israel

01:26:29.100 is advocating

01:26:29.920 in government

01:26:31.140 for the

01:26:31.600 nuking of

01:26:32.200 Iran

01:26:32.560 that's

01:26:32.880 correct

01:26:33.280 at all

01:26:33.780 people

01:26:34.780 who in

01:26:35.960 the Israeli

01:26:36.360 government

01:26:36.740 is advocating

01:26:37.320 I would

01:26:37.680 actually

01:26:38.040 think

01:26:38.400 there's

01:26:38.700 a broad

01:26:39.140 consensus

01:26:39.860 I'm saying

01:26:41.620 because

01:26:42.400 they have

01:26:43.200 two options

01:26:44.560 they regard

01:26:45.880 Iran

01:26:47.160 as as they

01:26:48.000 call it

01:26:48.600 an existential

01:26:49.920 enemy

01:26:50.800 they keep

01:26:52.020 saying they

01:26:52.400 want to

01:26:52.620 wipe Israel

01:26:53.100 off the

01:26:53.400 map

01:26:53.560 I'd say

01:26:53.980 so

01:26:54.240 I wouldn't

01:26:54.880 say they

01:26:55.240 keep saying

01:26:55.920 that

01:26:56.160 I don't

01:26:56.720 agree with

01:26:57.180 it

01:26:57.320 but I'm

01:26:57.540 not going

01:26:57.840 to go

01:26:58.140 into that

01:26:58.460 I said

01:26:58.940 if you

01:26:59.160 look at

01:26:59.460 the

01:26:59.620 documentary

01:27:00.180 record

01:27:00.840 they are

01:27:02.280 on board

01:27:03.080 supporting

01:27:03.800 that two

01:27:04.340 state

01:27:04.680 settlement

01:27:05.160 that's

01:27:05.840 what the

01:27:06.100 record

01:27:06.440 shows

01:27:07.040 now

01:27:07.620 I have

01:27:08.360 to make

01:27:08.740 one

01:27:09.080 qualification

01:27:09.720 to that

01:27:10.500 because I

01:27:11.020 want to be

01:27:11.400 faithful to

01:27:12.060 the facts

01:27:12.620 but on

01:27:14.480 this question

01:27:15.080 that you

01:27:15.340 raised

01:27:15.700 and now

01:27:16.400 you repeat

01:27:17.040 it on

01:27:17.720 the funding

01:27:18.320 so you'll

01:27:19.640 forgive me

01:27:20.340 if I go

01:27:21.220 back to

01:27:21.720 international

01:27:22.320 law

01:27:22.800 international

01:27:24.080 law says

01:27:25.480 an occupying

01:27:27.300 power

01:27:27.940 there is

01:27:28.760 nothing in

01:27:29.660 international

01:27:30.300 law

01:27:30.860 that bars

01:27:32.860 an occupied

01:27:34.280 people

01:27:35.300 from

01:27:36.700 engaging

01:27:38.380 in armed

01:27:39.080 resistance

01:27:39.680 against an

01:27:40.880 occupation

01:27:41.500 there is

01:27:42.700 nothing in

01:27:43.300 international

01:27:43.820 law

01:27:44.140 to use

01:27:44.540 the technical

01:27:45.100 term

01:27:45.540 and you'll

01:27:46.040 forgive me

01:27:46.500 for it

01:27:46.860 international

01:27:47.780 law

01:27:48.580 is neutral

01:27:49.900 on

01:27:51.200 an

01:27:51.900 occupying

01:27:52.740 people

01:27:53.240 using

01:27:55.160 armed

01:27:55.740 force

01:27:56.340 to resist

01:27:57.400 an occupation

01:27:58.380 number

01:27:59.640 two

01:28:00.180 nothing

01:28:01.700 in

01:28:02.500 international

01:28:03.360 law

01:28:04.080 bars

01:28:05.840 a

01:28:06.720 country

01:28:07.680 a foreign

01:28:09.080 country

01:28:09.600 from supplying

01:28:11.000 weapons

01:28:12.220 to a

01:28:13.240 people

01:28:13.820 engaged

01:28:14.860 in armed

01:28:15.600 resistance

01:28:16.200 against an

01:28:17.600 occupation

01:28:18.280 what international

01:28:20.080 law does

01:28:21.120 prohibit

01:28:22.060 international

01:28:23.140 law it's

01:28:23.920 not neutral

01:28:24.860 it prohibits

01:28:27.000 an occupying

01:28:28.700 force

01:28:29.460 an occupying

01:28:31.220 power

01:28:31.760 from using

01:28:33.580 violent

01:28:34.360 force

01:28:35.100 to maintain

01:28:36.700 an occupation

01:28:38.540 now you might

01:28:40.180 not like

01:28:41.160 those formulas

01:28:42.400 or formulations

01:28:43.820 but

01:28:44.860 the law

01:28:46.060 is

01:28:46.560 the law

01:28:47.400 Iran

01:28:48.440 under

01:28:48.940 international

01:28:49.760 law

01:28:50.380 has the

01:28:51.460 right

01:28:52.180 to supply

01:28:53.880 weapons

01:28:54.760 to

01:28:55.840 the

01:28:56.660 resistance

01:28:57.280 in

01:28:58.000 Gaza

01:28:58.400 to

01:28:59.200 the

01:28:59.500 occupation

01:29:00.320 the

01:29:00.660 resistance

01:29:01.100 in

01:29:01.420 Gaza

01:29:01.720 to

01:29:02.140 the

01:29:02.320 occupation

01:29:02.800 may I ask

01:29:03.320 one question

01:29:03.840 just about

01:29:04.340 international

01:29:04.840 law

01:29:05.120 you're

01:29:05.520 clearly

01:29:05.840 more

01:29:06.260 knowledgeable

01:29:07.160 about

01:29:07.500 than

01:29:07.740 I am

01:29:08.260 when you

01:29:09.420 talk about

01:29:10.040 the

01:29:10.520 international

01:29:11.100 law

01:29:11.420 allowing

01:29:11.940 armed

01:29:12.440 resistance

01:29:12.880 and other

01:29:13.700 countries

01:29:14.040 supporting

01:29:14.520 that

01:29:14.840 does

01:29:15.580 that

01:29:15.820 armed

01:29:16.080 resistance

01:29:16.540 include

01:29:17.220 massacring

01:29:17.840 civilians

01:29:18.300 no of

01:29:18.960 course

01:29:19.180 not

01:29:19.460 okay

01:29:20.220 well I

01:29:20.700 think

01:29:20.840 that's

01:29:21.040 kind of

01:29:21.400 important

01:29:21.740 in this

01:29:22.080 context

01:29:22.380 because

01:29:22.720 what

01:29:22.900 Francis

01:29:23.240 is

01:29:23.460 saying

01:29:23.700 to

01:29:23.880 you

01:29:24.040 isn't

01:29:24.800 why

01:29:25.280 is

01:29:25.460 Iran

01:29:25.740 supporting

01:29:26.300 these

01:29:26.580 people

01:29:26.940 fighting

01:29:27.740 the

01:29:28.000 IDF

01:29:28.500 what

01:29:29.060 he's

01:29:29.320 saying

01:29:29.560 is

01:29:29.820 Iran

01:29:30.500 funded

01:29:31.400 and

01:29:31.740 aided

01:29:32.180 the

01:29:32.440 people

01:29:32.780 who

01:29:33.000 committed

01:29:33.400 the

01:29:33.700 largest

01:29:34.060 massacre

01:29:34.600 of

01:29:34.840 civilian

01:29:35.220 Jews

01:29:35.680 since

01:29:36.220 the

01:29:36.360 Holocaust

01:29:36.760 isn't

01:29:37.400 that

01:29:37.560 a

01:29:37.680 problem

01:29:37.980 that's

01:29:38.880 what

01:29:39.000 he's

01:29:39.200 saying

01:29:39.440 I

01:29:39.720 would

01:29:39.940 say

01:29:40.240 that

01:29:40.600 it's

01:29:41.220 we're

01:29:42.460 going to

01:29:42.700 end up

01:29:42.980 going back

01:29:43.380 to the

01:29:43.600 beginning

01:29:43.880 and I

01:29:44.180 still

01:29:44.380 have to

01:29:44.740 say

01:29:44.920 one

01:29:45.120 last

01:29:45.400 thing

01:29:45.740 answer

01:29:47.140 that

01:29:47.420 one

01:29:47.580 first

01:29:47.980 I

01:29:48.600 would

01:29:48.800 say

01:29:49.240 on

01:29:50.320 what

01:29:50.500 happened

01:29:50.900 on

01:29:51.080 October

01:29:51.540 7th

01:29:52.960 I

01:29:53.220 absolutely

01:29:54.400 acknowledge

01:29:55.660 I've

01:29:56.240 made that

01:29:56.600 very

01:29:56.880 clear

01:29:57.320 that

01:29:57.940 atrocities

01:29:58.960 occur

01:29:59.640 yes

01:30:00.160 yes

01:30:00.540 is it

01:30:02.640 wrong

01:30:02.940 that

01:30:03.140 Iran

01:30:03.420 funded

01:30:03.940 and

01:30:04.200 supported

01:30:04.640 the

01:30:04.860 people

01:30:05.140 who

01:30:05.320 committed

01:30:05.640 that

01:30:05.840 Iran

01:30:05.920 could

01:30:06.740 say

01:30:07.020 and it's

01:30:07.340 factually

01:30:07.800 true

01:30:08.160 Iran

01:30:09.020 could

01:30:09.240 say

01:30:09.480 we

01:30:09.660 didn't

01:30:09.920 know

01:30:10.100 they

01:30:10.260 were

01:30:10.360 going

01:30:10.500 to

01:30:10.600 do

01:30:10.780 that

01:30:10.960 no

01:30:11.420 they

01:30:11.580 didn't

01:30:11.860 know

01:30:12.080 it's

01:30:12.340 factually

01:30:12.780 true

01:30:13.080 now

01:30:13.360 you

01:30:14.120 could

01:30:14.320 say

01:30:14.580 they're

01:30:14.840 misrepresenting

01:30:15.900 what

01:30:16.460 happened

01:30:17.080 on

01:30:17.280 October

01:30:17.680 7th

01:30:18.280 and I

01:30:18.740 would

01:30:18.920 say

01:30:19.180 Syed

01:30:19.680 Nisrael

01:30:20.100 the

01:30:20.400 head

01:30:20.640 of

01:30:20.840 Hezbollah

01:30:21.280 because

01:30:21.520 I

01:30:21.640 listened

01:30:21.880 to

01:30:22.020 his

01:30:22.200 speeches

01:30:22.580 I

01:30:22.820 can't

01:30:23.060 speak

01:30:23.240 for

01:30:23.500 Hezbollah

01:30:24.640 itself

01:30:25.080 as an

01:30:26.020 organization

01:30:26.580 yes

01:30:27.060 I

01:30:27.280 think

01:30:27.500 he's

01:30:27.720 misrepresenting

01:30:28.680 what

01:30:29.080 happened

01:30:29.420 October

01:30:29.840 7th

01:30:30.360 I

01:30:30.800 have

01:30:31.120 no

01:30:31.300 doubt

01:30:31.580 about

01:30:31.840 that

01:30:32.140 and

01:30:33.920 the

01:30:34.160 truth

01:30:34.420 of

01:30:34.560 the

01:30:34.660 matter

01:30:34.920 I've

01:30:35.460 studied

01:30:35.700 it

01:30:35.880 pretty

01:30:36.080 closely

01:30:36.520 it's

01:30:38.940 almost

01:30:39.220 certain

01:30:39.720 in my

01:30:40.460 opinion

01:30:40.820 it's

01:30:41.180 almost

01:30:41.440 certain

01:30:41.780 Hezbollah

01:30:42.260 would not

01:30:42.640 have

01:30:42.800 done

01:30:42.980 that

01:30:43.240 well

01:30:43.920 no

01:30:44.120 it's

01:30:44.340 not

01:30:44.520 true

01:30:44.720 because

01:30:45.040 in

01:30:45.260 Syria

01:30:45.520 it's

01:30:45.740 carrying

01:30:46.020 out

01:30:46.240 massacres

01:30:46.740 so

01:30:46.920 no

01:30:47.060 I

01:30:47.300 take

01:30:47.500 that

01:30:47.660 back

01:30:47.960 I

01:30:49.600 retract

01:30:50.020 that

01:30:50.600 but

01:30:52.280 the

01:30:52.700 last

01:30:53.360 question

01:30:54.100 and

01:30:56.460 here

01:30:56.780 I'm

01:30:57.020 going

01:30:57.180 to be

01:30:57.420 very

01:30:57.740 straightforward

01:30:58.360 I

01:30:59.680 do

01:30:59.960 believe

01:31:00.740 that

01:31:01.800 what's

01:31:02.160 happened

01:31:02.560 in the

01:31:02.940 last

01:31:03.380 six

01:31:04.280 months

01:31:04.900 has

01:31:06.460 changed

01:31:07.080 the

01:31:07.320 position

01:31:07.700 of

01:31:07.960 people

01:31:08.200 like

01:31:08.520 Hezbollah

01:31:09.020 and

01:31:09.440 Iran

01:31:09.860 I

01:31:10.540 do

01:31:10.800 believe

01:31:11.360 as

01:31:12.240 a

01:31:12.900 as

01:31:15.040 a

01:31:15.440 not

01:31:15.860 just

01:31:16.160 a

01:31:16.760 metaphorical

01:31:18.100 statement

01:31:19.120 like

01:31:19.480 Israel

01:31:19.960 will

01:31:20.240 vanish

01:31:20.620 from

01:31:20.900 the

01:31:21.060 pages

01:31:21.420 of

01:31:21.700 history

01:31:22.160 I

01:31:22.960 do

01:31:23.240 believe

01:31:23.760 that

01:31:24.020 the

01:31:24.240 people

01:31:24.640 in

01:31:25.120 what's

01:31:26.440 called

01:31:26.720 the

01:31:26.900 axis

01:31:27.260 of

01:31:27.560 resistance

01:31:28.120 and

01:31:28.500 mainly

01:31:28.820 Hezbollah

01:31:29.800 and

01:31:30.280 Iran

01:31:30.700 no

01:31:31.400 longer

01:31:31.780 believe

01:31:32.220 they

01:31:32.420 can

01:31:32.600 live

01:31:32.760 with

01:31:32.920 Israel

01:31:33.240 I

01:31:33.760 do

01:31:33.940 believe

01:31:34.280 that

01:31:34.460 I

01:31:34.640 do

01:31:34.780 believe

01:31:35.140 I've

01:31:35.380 said

01:31:35.580 it

01:31:35.760 over

01:31:36.120 and

01:31:36.300 over

01:31:36.520 again

01:31:36.760 I

01:31:36.900 don't

01:31:37.900 shy

01:31:39.860 of

01:31:40.040 their

01:31:40.180 unhappy

01:31:40.660 conclusions

01:31:41.280 I

01:31:42.220 do

01:31:42.420 think

01:31:42.720 it's

01:31:42.940 become

01:31:43.280 between

01:31:43.680 Israel

01:31:44.240 and

01:31:45.160 Iran

01:31:47.060 Hezbollah

01:31:47.560 I do

01:31:47.860 think

01:31:48.100 it's

01:31:48.300 become

01:31:48.600 existential

01:31:49.320 neither

01:31:50.120 one

01:31:50.460 will

01:31:50.660 tolerate

01:31:51.080 the

01:31:51.320 existence

01:31:51.700 of

01:31:52.000 the

01:31:52.120 other

01:31:52.320 that's

01:31:53.300 why

01:31:53.540 people

01:31:54.940 despair

01:31:56.320 when

01:31:56.600 I

01:31:56.800 say

01:31:57.160 I'm

01:31:57.620 kind

01:31:58.260 of

01:31:58.440 hopeless

01:31:58.800 at

01:31:59.100 this

01:31:59.300 moment

01:31:59.640 because

01:32:00.600 I

01:32:00.820 don't

01:32:01.080 see

01:32:01.320 an

01:32:01.500 exit

01:32:01.880 I

01:32:02.320 think

01:32:02.620 after

01:32:03.360 what

01:32:03.580 Israel

01:32:03.900 did

01:32:04.200 in

01:32:04.400 Gaza

01:32:04.740 over

01:32:06.420 the

01:32:06.620 last

01:32:06.900 six

01:32:07.180 months

01:32:07.580 at

01:32:08.380 least

01:32:08.860 on

01:32:09.120 part

01:32:09.640 of

01:32:10.100 the

01:32:10.700 Hezbollah

01:32:11.260 which

01:32:12.300 has a

01:32:13.160 different

01:32:13.420 mindset

01:32:13.880 than

01:32:14.180 Iran

01:32:14.500 in my

01:32:14.780 opinion

01:32:15.160 but

01:32:15.920 at least

01:32:16.160 on the

01:32:16.360 part

01:32:16.580 of

01:32:16.720 Hezbollah

01:32:17.160 you

01:32:17.720 can't

01:32:18.080 live

01:32:18.220 with

01:32:18.380 them

01:32:18.560 the

01:32:19.260 official

01:32:19.680 position

01:32:20.260 of

01:32:20.680 Hezbollah

01:32:21.480 up until

01:32:22.300 October

01:32:22.760 7th

01:32:23.380 was

01:32:23.740 we

01:32:24.520 don't

01:32:24.800 agree

01:32:25.080 with

01:32:25.300 two

01:32:25.540 states

01:32:26.020 we

01:32:26.660 believe

01:32:26.900 Palestine

01:32:27.400 belongs

01:32:27.920 to

01:32:28.140 the

01:32:28.480 Palestinians

01:32:29.260 however

01:32:29.980 if

01:32:31.080 the

01:32:31.760 leadership

01:32:32.260 of

01:32:32.980 the

01:32:33.260 Palestinians

01:32:33.860 decides

01:32:34.660 on a

01:32:35.000 two

01:32:35.200 state

01:32:35.480 settlement

01:32:35.860 we

01:32:36.380 accept

01:32:36.860 it

01:32:37.080 that

01:32:37.460 was their

01:32:37.840 position

01:32:38.240 up until

01:32:38.960 October

01:32:39.900 7th

01:32:40.660 listening

01:32:41.320 to the

01:32:41.780 speeches

01:32:42.200 and I'm

01:32:43.620 not happy

01:32:44.080 to say

01:32:44.580 this

01:32:44.960 listening

01:32:46.100 to the

01:32:46.500 speeches

01:32:46.880 I think

01:32:47.800 their views

01:32:48.860 now change

01:32:49.600 they can't

01:32:50.020 live with

01:32:50.320 Israel

01:32:50.660 this will

01:32:52.700 for

01:32:53.820 you could say

01:32:55.120 for good or

01:32:55.640 for bad

01:32:56.080 but this

01:32:56.480 case for bad

01:32:57.420 what happened

01:32:59.000 will be a

01:32:59.600 turning point

01:33:00.240 I didn't see

01:33:01.740 that at the

01:33:02.520 beginning

01:33:02.900 at the beginning

01:33:04.240 when it happened

01:33:05.060 and friends

01:33:05.880 of mine

01:33:06.300 who are

01:33:06.500 very

01:33:06.700 knowledgeable

01:33:07.120 like

01:33:07.460 Muin

01:33:07.740 Rabbani

01:33:08.220 he said

01:33:09.620 it's a

01:33:10.320 turning point

01:33:11.040 I said

01:33:11.420 well

01:33:11.820 you know

01:33:12.220 I've seen

01:33:12.640 these

01:33:12.860 turning points

01:33:13.500 I've seen

01:33:13.880 Castlet

01:33:14.440 I've seen

01:33:14.940 pillar of

01:33:15.320 defence

01:33:15.700 I've seen

01:33:16.160 protective

01:33:16.660 edge

01:33:17.020 but now

01:33:18.040 I see

01:33:18.500 it's a

01:33:18.920 turning

01:33:19.120 point

01:33:19.480 I

01:33:20.120 reluctantly

01:33:21.900 acknowledge

01:33:23.480 that

01:33:23.860 it's a

01:33:24.760 same

01:33:24.920 is true

01:33:25.260 in Israel

01:33:25.620 no one

01:33:26.260 believes

01:33:26.540 in a

01:33:26.760 two

01:33:26.920 state

01:33:27.100 solution

01:33:27.480 in

01:33:27.640 Israel

01:33:27.800 I

01:33:28.160 don't

01:33:28.760 believe

01:33:29.840 large

01:33:30.700 no

01:33:31.560 one

01:33:32.060 the

01:33:33.100 overwhelming

01:33:33.840 consensus

01:33:34.400 is

01:33:34.820 against

01:33:35.280 it

01:33:35.460 so

01:33:36.160 neither

01:33:36.760 side

01:33:37.100 I don't

01:33:37.460 see

01:33:38.480 that's

01:33:39.540 one of

01:33:39.800 the

01:33:39.920 problems

01:33:40.460 with

01:33:41.180 this

01:33:41.400 particular

01:33:41.920 moment

01:33:42.360 most

01:33:43.140 of the

01:33:43.480 time

01:33:43.900 you

01:33:44.600 could

01:33:44.840 see

01:33:45.500 the

01:33:46.480 terms

01:33:47.020 of

01:33:47.220 a

01:33:47.400 settlement

01:33:47.760 and

01:33:48.560 then

01:33:48.680 trying

01:33:48.900 to

01:33:49.040 get

01:33:49.220 people

01:33:49.640 to

01:33:49.980 it

01:33:50.280 both

01:33:51.580 sides

01:33:51.960 to

01:33:52.280 it

01:33:52.540 now

01:33:53.380 I

01:33:53.880 don't

01:33:54.160 see

01:33:54.400 that

01:33:54.760 because

01:33:55.360 both

01:33:55.760 sides

01:33:56.240 see

01:33:56.960 that

01:33:58.100 we

01:33:58.720 cannot

01:33:59.300 co

01:34:00.260 exist

01:34:01.100 with

01:34:03.140 the

01:34:03.300 other

01:34:03.580 side

01:34:04.060 Norman

01:34:05.480 it's

01:34:06.480 been

01:34:06.620 an

01:34:06.780 absolute

01:34:07.080 pleasure

01:34:07.400 thank

01:34:07.780 you

01:34:07.960 for

01:34:08.140 coming

01:34:08.340 on

01:34:08.540 thank

01:34:08.760 you

01:34:08.860 for

01:34:09.000 taking

01:34:09.260 part

01:34:09.620 in

01:34:09.760 the

01:34:09.880 discussion

01:34:10.400 we

01:34:11.520 really

01:34:11.800 appreciate

01:34:13.860 it

01:34:14.160 the

01:34:14.280 final

01:34:14.560 question

01:34:14.940 we

01:34:15.100 always

01:34:15.480 ask

01:34:15.880 before

01:34:16.500 we

01:34:16.700 go

01:34:16.940 and

01:34:17.180 ask

01:34:17.420 your

01:34:17.660 questions

01:34:18.140 to

01:34:18.320 Norman

01:34:18.580 on

01:34:18.780 locals

01:34:19.120 is

01:34:20.040 what's

01:34:20.680 the

01:34:20.780 one

01:34:20.940 thing

01:34:21.140 we're

01:34:21.320 not

01:34:21.520 talking

01:34:21.880 about

01:34:22.140 as

01:34:22.400 a

01:34:22.540 society

01:34:22.980 that

01:34:23.200 we

01:34:23.300 really

01:34:23.520 should

01:34:23.760 be

01:34:24.000 I

01:34:26.800 would

01:34:28.940 say

01:34:29.440 speaking

01:34:30.940 as an

01:34:31.600 older

01:34:31.920 person

01:34:32.540 much

01:34:33.520 older

01:34:33.740 person

01:34:34.220 that

01:34:35.580 the

01:34:36.160 world

01:34:36.820 that

01:34:38.160 we

01:34:38.480 have

01:34:38.780 carved

01:34:39.220 out

01:34:39.680 for

01:34:40.820 the

01:34:41.300 new

01:34:41.600 generations

01:34:42.280 is

01:34:44.400 so

01:34:45.860 so

01:34:46.920 unfair

01:34:47.960 and

01:34:48.860 so

01:34:49.420 wrong

01:34:50.560 and

01:34:51.500 we

01:34:51.680 need

01:34:52.060 a

01:34:52.940 radical

01:34:53.700 transformation

01:34:55.220 to

01:34:56.540 give

01:34:56.960 the

01:34:57.860 new

01:34:58.280 generations

01:34:59.060 the

01:35:00.580 same

01:35:01.120 chances

01:35:01.880 and

01:35:03.180 opportunities

01:35:03.860 in

01:35:04.580 life

01:35:04.980 that

01:35:06.100 I

01:35:06.820 was

01:35:07.080 blessed

01:35:07.460 with

01:35:07.820 wonderful

01:35:09.380 schools

01:35:10.360 a

01:35:11.560 plentiful

01:35:12.220 society

01:35:12.960 for all

01:35:14.320 the

01:35:14.520 injustices

01:35:15.220 of the

01:35:15.680 capitalist

01:35:16.100 system

01:35:16.700 for a

01:35:17.660 large

01:35:18.180 part

01:35:18.560 not

01:35:19.180 the

01:35:19.400 whole

01:35:19.740 for a

01:35:20.720 large

01:35:21.040 part

01:35:21.440 the

01:35:21.860 system

01:35:22.240 worked

01:35:22.720 and

01:35:23.880 for

01:35:24.140 now

01:35:24.560 if

01:35:25.460 in

01:35:25.780 my

01:35:26.080 generation

01:35:26.820 the

01:35:27.880 system

01:35:28.280 worked

01:35:28.640 for

01:35:28.860 80%

01:35:29.700 of

01:35:30.040 our

01:35:30.200 country

01:35:30.620 and

01:35:31.480 it

01:35:31.620 failed

01:35:32.140 for

01:35:32.520 20%

01:35:33.560 in

01:35:34.920 the

01:35:35.160 new

01:35:35.600 world

01:35:36.140 of

01:35:36.820 the

01:35:36.980 younger

01:35:37.220 generations

01:35:37.940 it

01:35:39.180 works

01:35:39.640 for

01:35:39.860 20%

01:35:40.680 and

01:35:42.080 it's

01:35:42.300 a

01:35:42.520 catastrophic

01:35:43.280 failure

01:35:44.160 for

01:35:45.460 80%

01:35:46.260 and

01:35:47.360 that

01:35:47.640 to

01:35:47.860 me

01:35:48.120 is

01:35:49.080 what

01:35:50.200 we

01:35:50.480 should

01:35:50.680 be

01:35:50.960 thinking

01:35:51.520 about

01:35:51.840 and

01:35:52.140 I'll

01:35:52.300 just say

01:35:52.780 to round

01:35:53.580 out

01:35:53.840 the

01:35:53.980 discussion

01:35:54.500 that's

01:35:56.180 why

01:35:56.340 I

01:35:56.480 think

01:35:56.680 so

01:35:56.920 many

01:35:57.100 young

01:35:57.360 people

01:35:57.760 identify

01:35:58.400 with

01:35:58.820 Gaza

01:35:59.220 powerless

01:36:01.660 in the

01:36:03.600 face

01:36:04.200 of this

01:36:04.880 juggernaut

01:36:06.400 of power

01:36:07.520 and

01:36:09.040 obviously

01:36:09.860 it's

01:36:10.620 at a

01:36:10.920 whole

01:36:11.480 different

01:36:11.920 level

01:36:12.300 in

01:36:12.540 Gaza

01:36:12.880 but

01:36:13.980 the

01:36:14.160 young

01:36:14.400 people

01:36:14.740 have

01:36:14.960 that

01:36:15.180 same

01:36:15.600 feeling

01:36:16.220 poor

01:36:18.020 powerless

01:36:19.300 hopeless

01:36:20.740 in the

01:36:22.220 face

01:36:22.680 in the

01:36:23.260 face

01:36:25.600 heartless

01:36:26.240 juggernaut

01:36:27.640 of power

01:36:28.460 that's

01:36:29.720 Gaza

01:36:30.240 obviously

01:36:31.720 on a

01:36:32.200 vastly

01:36:33.140 smaller

01:36:34.060 level

01:36:35.160 but it's

01:36:36.100 also the

01:36:36.880 young

01:36:37.140 people

01:36:37.640 in my

01:36:38.660 own

01:36:38.980 country

01:36:39.460 and

01:36:40.720 that's

01:36:41.280 why

01:36:41.580 in my

01:36:42.040 view

01:36:42.360 they have

01:36:44.000 seized

01:36:44.640 on this

01:36:45.220 Gaza

01:36:45.580 issue

01:36:46.560 because

01:36:47.620 they see

01:36:48.220 themselves

01:36:48.860 obviously

01:36:49.800 in a

01:36:51.960 different

01:36:52.300 level

01:36:52.760 they see

01:36:53.640 themselves

01:36:54.260 in it

01:36:54.680 that's

01:36:56.460 my

01:36:56.660 impression

01:36:57.120 Norman

01:36:58.380 Finkelstein

01:36:58.860 thank you

01:36:59.240 so much

01:36:59.540 for coming

01:36:59.860 on

01:37:00.080 head on

01:37:00.540 over to

01:37:00.900 locals

01:37:01.200 where we

01:37:01.580 ask

01:37:01.940 Norman

01:37:02.360 your

01:37:02.580 questions

01:37:03.040 Hamas

01:37:05.300 follow a

01:37:05.940 radical

01:37:06.300 version

01:37:06.740 of

01:37:06.920 Islam

01:37:07.320 this

01:37:07.920 version

01:37:08.260 has a

01:37:08.640 tradition

01:37:09.040 or

01:37:09.260 hadith

01:37:09.660 which

01:37:09.920 describes

01:37:10.400 an

01:37:10.580 end

01:37:10.780 time

01:37:10.960 prophecy

01:37:11.360 in which

01:37:11.720 Muslims

01:37:12.100 kill

01:37:12.420 Jews

01:37:12.820 how do

01:37:13.720 you

01:37:13.880 expect

01:37:14.280 Jews

01:37:14.620 to

01:37:14.840 reason

01:37:15.120 with

01:37:15.320 Muslims

01:37:15.660 when

01:37:15.900 they

01:37:16.040 seem

01:37:16.240 to

01:37:16.360 be

01:37:16.520 radicalized

01:37:17.140 with

01:37:17.280 such

01:37:17.500 suspicion

01:37:17.960 and

01:37:18.140 hatred

01:37:18.500 when

01:37:19.000 it's

01:37:19.220 inbuilt

01:37:19.640 in

01:37:19.840 Islam

TRIGGERnometry - May 12, 2024

Israel⧸Palestine： Asking The Questions No One Else Will - Norman Finkelstein

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