TRIGGERnometry - May 12, 2024


Israel⧸Palestine: Asking The Questions No One Else Will - Norman Finkelstein


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 37 minutes

Words per Minute

131.50189

Word Count

12,800

Sentence Count

443

Misogynist Sentences

8

Hate Speech Sentences

84


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Norma Finkelstein joins us to talk about her family history and how it informs her support for the Palestinian cause. She talks about her own experience growing up in a Nazi concentration camp and how that informs her views on the conflict with Iran.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.960 In the case of Ukraine, they estimate 500 children killed in two years.
00:00:07.840 In the case of Gaza, 15,006 months.
00:00:13.280 The people in charge of Gaza could have handed over the hostages by now,
00:00:17.100 could have surrendered the terrorists who committed the atrocities on October 7th,
00:00:20.960 and this would all be over.
00:00:22.700 Let's say Hamas did do what you said.
00:00:25.400 What would happen?
00:00:27.140 The people of Gaza, half of whom are children,
00:00:30.000 will be confined in that same concentration camp.
00:00:33.920 Probably it'll be more brutal than ever.
00:00:37.240 We're missing a part of the puzzle here, which is also Iran.
00:00:41.120 Iran could say we didn't know they were going to do that.
00:00:43.760 No, they didn't know. It's factually true.
00:00:45.660 Come on.
00:00:47.440 Professor Norman Finkelstein, great to have you on the show.
00:00:50.220 We've been trying to make this happen for a little while.
00:00:52.740 Thanks for coming on.
00:00:53.720 One of the things we talked about before we started was our Bassem Yusuf interview.
00:00:59.100 We'll talk about your frustrations, about how that went.
00:01:02.080 But the first thing we wanted to do is do something that people often don't have a chance to do,
00:01:06.760 which is kind of talk about what informs their views on things.
00:01:10.940 And in your case, one of the things that you've talked about is both of your parents were in concentration camps in Nazi Germany,
00:01:18.000 or put there by Nazi Germany, at least.
00:01:20.600 And you talk about how that informs your views now in supporting the Palestinians.
00:01:27.980 But tell us a little bit about your family history.
00:01:31.360 Both of my parents were from Warsaw.
00:01:33.540 My mother, I guess her father owned a tobacco store, and she had a very good education.
00:01:40.760 She went to a Jewish private school.
00:01:43.420 She knew Latin, and she knew classical music.
00:01:46.580 She knew math.
00:01:48.540 When I say new math, not just addition, subtraction.
00:01:52.760 She studied at Warsaw University, as she put it, the mathematics faculty.
00:01:59.500 It only lasted about two years before the war broke out.
00:02:03.960 And she told me that it was impossible to study because the Jews in the lecture halls,
00:02:10.180 they had to not sit, but they had to stand in a certain place.
00:02:14.540 And at the end of the lectures, the Polish fascists would beat them up.
00:02:20.060 If you ever saw the film Julia, Julia was with Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Fonda.
00:02:27.220 And it had a real resonance for me, because if you remember the film,
00:02:32.360 and probably won't remember the details, Julia loses her leg,
00:02:38.640 the Vanessa Redgrave character, loses her leg in a melee in an Austrian college,
00:02:44.540 where the fascists attack the Jews in the lecture hall.
00:02:53.840 And it was the exact description that my mother told me growing up
00:02:57.340 about what it was like in the university.
00:03:00.160 Anyhow, she had a wonderful carefree life, as she describes it.
00:03:03.680 She was a fascist, she said, that totally supported Piłsudski in Poland.
00:03:09.420 And she was president of her class, of her class and president of her school.
00:03:15.080 And by all accounts that I heard, she was very, very smart.
00:03:19.840 My father, his father owned a lumber mill, I was told.
00:03:25.600 And he and my mother were both in the Warsaw Ghetto from 1940, I think, to 1943.
00:03:36.520 The ghetto was gradually constructed.
00:03:40.640 And then in April 1943 was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
00:03:45.320 Neither of my parents were in the uprising.
00:03:47.620 I want that to be clear.
00:03:49.500 I don't want to misrepresent their past and make it glorious, where it's not warranted.
00:03:55.680 The survivors, the estimates are between 20,000 and 40,000 Jews survived the uprising.
00:04:01.980 And they were deported to Meishtenek concentration camp.
00:04:06.220 Both of my parents were deported there.
00:04:09.040 Now, they did not, they apparently knew of each other before the war, but I don't know the exact details.
00:04:18.440 What I do remember is, after the war, pictures of my mother's family survived.
00:04:26.640 Because my mother's mother had a sister in the United States.
00:04:32.560 And before the war, she sent pictures.
00:04:34.540 So, I have still, it was on the family wall, I kept the pictures, and they are now above my piano in my living room.
00:04:42.780 Those pictures survived.
00:04:44.600 No pictures of my father's family survived.
00:04:47.300 Nothing.
00:04:48.660 And in the Warsaw Ghetto, my mother saw my father's sister in the distance.
00:04:57.780 She had thick blonde hair, and she was wearing white boots.
00:05:01.780 And periodically, during the marriage, my father would assume this very tense pose.
00:05:14.000 And he would tell, he would say to my mother, tell me what she looked like.
00:05:19.420 Tell me what she looked like.
00:05:23.720 Because it was the only visual connection with his family.
00:05:29.020 My father, as I said, there were the pictures.
00:05:33.100 But on both sides, every member was exterminated.
00:05:37.520 My father, when I wrote my first book, I wanted, of course, dedicated to my parents.
00:05:43.600 And I also wanted to say something about their past.
00:05:49.120 And I asked my mother, in what camps were my father?
00:05:54.660 I knew my father was in Auschwitz because he had a number, and only if you were in Auschwitz did you have the number.
00:05:59.760 So, I said, in what camps?
00:06:01.360 So, I said, I dedicated to my father, Warsaw Ghetto, Auschwitz.
00:06:05.400 And my mother told me, no, your father was in seven concentration camps.
00:06:10.720 I didn't know.
00:06:12.160 I know he ended up in Auschwitz, and he was in the Auschwitz death march.
00:06:16.780 My mother ended up in two slave labor camps.
00:06:20.940 And the thing that they always, what was part of their, so to speak, resume, my mother would always say, I was liberated by the Russians, and my father was liberated by the Americans.
00:06:36.320 And then they ended up in the, what were called DP, displaced people camps in Linz, Austria.
00:06:43.720 And that's where they met, that's where they married, and that's where they left.
00:06:49.600 My father was in the socialist Zionist youth group called Hashomer Hatzayer.
00:06:56.700 And my mother was, both of my parents, till the last dying days, they were fervent Stalinists.
00:07:04.320 I mean, long after the Soviet Union, the Communist Party had put that chapter behind them, beginning with the Khrushchev speech, that was, that did not happen to my parents.
00:07:16.040 Now, as I said, they were very smart.
00:07:19.920 However, they looked at the world through the lens of the Nazi Holocaust.
00:07:23.860 That was sort of the beginning and the end, you know, that was being there at the creation.
00:07:30.340 And it was the Nazi Holocaust.
00:07:32.740 And so far as they were concerned, and factually, it's correct, I'm fully prepared to go toe-to-toe with you.
00:07:40.600 And it was the Soviet Union that defeated the Nazis, and that's all they cared about.
00:07:44.980 Well, I'm from the Soviet Union, so the fact that the Soviet Union, I mean, four out of every five German soldiers who died on the battlefield died on the Eastern Front.
00:07:53.260 So the fact that the Soviet Union, together with the United States and the British Empire, worked together to destroy Nazism.
00:07:59.920 Well, I don't agree with it together, except as a cameo role in defeating the Nazis.
00:08:05.300 That's my opinion, but we're not going to get into an argument.
00:08:08.060 We'll get into that argument after the interview, because I've got a lot of beef with you on that.
00:08:12.940 But that was how my parents viewed it, and Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union.
00:08:17.760 So you could not criticize Stalin.
00:08:20.080 And if you did, even I became a Maoist, and as you know, the Soviets and the Chinese were at loggerheads, more than loggerheads.
00:08:29.680 And I would sometimes make some criticism of Russia, and my parents would become utterly livid, livid.
00:08:38.560 And, you know, for them, the worst thing to say about somebody, the worst epithet, was to call them a traitor.
00:08:46.920 And anybody who criticized the Soviet Union in their minds was a traitor.
00:08:52.420 So I had to walk on eggshells whenever we had discussions.
00:08:55.960 I had to sort of compartmentalize my Maoism at home.
00:08:59.440 Well, let's not focus on World War II debate.
00:09:03.700 We can do that another time.
00:09:05.460 The reason I asked you about your family background is you have talked about the fact that it informs your views of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
00:09:15.160 What does that mean exactly?
00:09:16.820 How are your views on that shaped by your family history?
00:09:19.980 Well, there are two aspects.
00:09:25.360 Number one, there is a distinction between having an intelligent discussion of something and intellectualizing something.
00:09:38.800 Now, that distinction might sound like hair splitting or parsing, but it's part of my total being.
00:09:46.220 Namely, when you're talking about death, when you're talking about destruction, when you're talking about war, yes, you have to make a rational argument.
00:09:59.540 You have to persuade through reason, facts, logic.
00:10:04.940 However, there is always the danger that you start to intellectualize the discussion or the conversation, as it's called nowadays.
00:10:15.860 You start to intellectualize it, and you lose sight of what's at stake.
00:10:22.700 So, to give you a concrete example, during the 1960s and 70s, there was a very famous program in New York called Firing Line, and the host was the national conservative, William Buckley.
00:10:42.640 And Buckley would have on guests, often of the radical left.
00:10:48.760 It was actually a quite open program.
00:10:51.440 So, you would have the Black Panthers on, you would have the famous radical lawyer, William Kunstler on, and you would have Noam Chomsky on.
00:10:59.320 And when he would have some liberal opponents of the war in Vietnam, liberal opponents of the war in Vietnam, say, John Kenneth Galbraith, very famous economist of our day, of my day, or Allard Lowenstein, who's less well-known.
00:11:19.320 They would argue about the war, argue about the war, argue about the war, competing facts, and then at the end, they would stand up and give each other a bear hug.
00:11:35.940 And my mother was mortified.
00:11:40.820 Where is the moral core behind what you're talking about?
00:11:48.340 We're talking about death.
00:11:50.740 We're talking about destruction.
00:11:53.800 The estimates are about 3 million Vietnamese were killed.
00:11:57.360 Forget about Laotians and Cambodians.
00:12:02.540 And, you know, the scenes were horrible daily, because they were actually televised every night in the news.
00:12:11.980 And to hug the person.
00:12:14.080 And so, yes, to facts, logic, reason, you have to persuade.
00:12:23.560 But you have to always be cognizant.
00:12:28.000 It can't just be at the back of your mind.
00:12:30.800 It has to be in the foreground of your mind.
00:12:34.640 What we're talking about, we're talking about snuffing out life.
00:12:40.040 And that, to me, was very important.
00:12:44.380 I try not to exaggerate, but many of my statements sound as if they're hyperbolic.
00:12:52.020 It was typical in my generation to watch the nightly news, either what was called ABC News, NBC News, or CBS News.
00:13:01.000 I could still tell you the anchors on each program, because they were so deeply imprinted in our minds.
00:13:07.160 CBS was, of course, Walter Cronkite.
00:13:10.020 And NBC was what was called Huntley and Brinkley.
00:13:14.800 And everyone watched the news, nightly news.
00:13:17.120 And the top story would always be the war in Vietnam, okay?
00:13:22.540 And when the scenes came out, when the scenes appeared on the screen of the war in Vietnam, my mother would go like this.
00:13:34.020 Tell me when it's over.
00:13:36.400 Tell me when it's over.
00:13:37.820 She could physically not look at it.
00:13:40.380 She was not an emotive person.
00:13:42.280 Not at all.
00:13:43.520 And she was not theatrical.
00:13:44.820 She was the real deal of what you sewers, what you got.
00:13:52.000 But she couldn't physically look at it.
00:13:55.260 And so you could say, and I'm willing to grant, there was a hysterical element to how she reacted to war.
00:14:06.220 But others might say that's a normal human reaction.
00:14:10.920 And if you don't react hysterically, there's something wrong with you.
00:14:18.240 That's, you can debate it.
00:14:20.580 And so I also remember when I was in high school, I was in debate society.
00:14:29.540 The debating team, it was called.
00:14:31.100 And the premise of the debating team is you have to learn to argue effectively on both sides.
00:14:38.140 It was just a flip of the coin where you're going to be pro-proposition or anti-proposition.
00:14:43.920 And my mother was very, very disdainful of that.
00:14:49.680 She says, that teaches you to be duplicitous and two-faced.
00:14:53.260 So the moral, the passionate side, even though they were very smart, my parents, the moral and the passionate side came from my parents and my own being.
00:15:10.660 And then later in life, you could say I came under the tutelage of Professor Chomsky.
00:15:20.340 And he became my mentor.
00:15:23.640 And I think it's fair to say, to the extent that he had friends, I was a close family friend.
00:15:30.840 I was close to him and I was close to his wife, probably closer to his wife than him because with his wife I could have.
00:15:38.660 So I could talk about the real world.
00:15:42.160 I should say the mundane world, the mundane world.
00:15:45.400 Norman, let me, sorry to interrupt.
00:15:47.000 Let me just move it closer to the Israel and Palestine thing because what I'm really asking you is, I should have said it like this when I started.
00:15:55.200 Most people would think that with two parents who are Holocaust survivors, whose entire families were wiped out in the Holocaust, you would be on the side of the Jewish state, so to speak.
00:16:06.640 And the thing that people find difficult about your position, particularly in the Jewish, Jews do, among other people, of course, is that to them inexplicable contrast.
00:16:19.440 How do you explain that?
00:16:21.020 I would say there are two aspects to it.
00:16:26.420 The first aspect to it is that I grew up in a home where there was never any particular identification with the state of Israel.
00:16:34.560 That's just, yes, it's true.
00:16:36.020 My father was in Hashemir Hatzayir.
00:16:38.120 But by the time I came into the world, that was in the past.
00:16:42.300 And my parents didn't inculcate in us any special affection for the state of Israel.
00:16:54.500 And to speak honestly, even though my parents were resolutely Jewish in their being, in their being, their gestures, their, you know, even taking pride in intellectual achievement and all those sort of impalpable ways they were resolutely Jewish.
00:17:15.900 I can't say we were raised in a consciously Jewish home, consciously Jewish, first of all, because God was an anathema.
00:17:26.100 The notion of God was an anathema in my home.
00:17:28.660 And I wasn't bar mitzvahed, which was in my neighborhood, it was, it was devastating because bar mitzvah was like a coming out party for the non-Jewish world.
00:17:45.980 And it's where you display the family wealth, the family achievement, and all of that sort of stuff.
00:17:53.120 And it wasn't even a question in my home.
00:17:56.140 It's not like I went up to my parents and said, why aren't I being bar mitzvahed?
00:17:59.280 You don't even ask the question.
00:18:01.220 It was just not part of the range of thought.
00:18:04.640 It's a funny story.
00:18:06.460 I was born in December.
00:18:08.640 So all of my friends are having their bar mitzvahs.
00:18:11.380 They're having their bar mitzvahs.
00:18:12.420 And I had to come up with an excuse why eventually it came to December, why I have a bar mitzvah.
00:18:21.620 And my excuse was, I'm having my bar mitzvah in Israel.
00:18:26.840 So Zionism came in handy.
00:18:32.140 So there was that aspect that I didn't grow up in a home that you would call conventionally Jewish.
00:18:38.960 And the second aspect is, and I know this is going to sound a little bit pious and abstract.
00:18:45.480 At the beginning, it's true.
00:18:50.380 And I try to be as candid and truthful as it can be.
00:18:55.700 Yes, the Jewish omen came into play because, remember, I was involved in this conflict at a time where very few Jews were.
00:19:03.500 I go back to the 1970s and 1982 with the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
00:19:09.860 And so being Jewish was an asset to the cause.
00:19:13.420 And so as it were, and I don't like to use the word, but it seems like it's plausible, advertising your Jewishness in this cause was helpful.
00:19:25.560 But over time, you could say a kind of, over time, a kind of moral refinement set in.
00:19:37.420 And I became pretty emphatic.
00:19:41.260 I'm not pro or anti-Israel.
00:19:44.960 I'm not pro or anti-Palestinian.
00:19:48.580 I'm not pro or anti-Arab.
00:19:51.240 And whenever I am described in those terms, in particular when I'm described as pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab, I recoil and I manifest the fact that I'm recalling by always emphasizing I'm pro-truth and I'm pro-justice.
00:20:13.820 I am anti-falsity and I am anti-injustice.
00:20:18.620 That's the only thing that concerns me.
00:20:22.260 If the facts fell on the other side, then I have to go where the truth tells me to go and where justice directs me.
00:20:31.740 And I am very confident that that is, but I acknowledge it took time for me to internalize that, that it's about truth.
00:20:46.140 It's about justice.
00:20:47.380 It's about spending the whole of your adult life, the whole of your adult life, pouring over human rights reports, pouring over legal texts, pouring over books and books and not reading them once.
00:21:10.660 I'm not boasting, I'm speaking factually, and maybe it's nothing to boast about.
00:21:17.200 I have a wonderful friend in the UK, Deborah.
00:21:21.440 Deborah, her father was a very famous Jewish historian, the most famous, Maccabee, and she's the lawyer of Professor Maccabee.
00:21:34.440 And I was reading Jane Eyre again, the first time I read it was in sophomore year in high school.
00:21:43.060 I was rereading it and the prose is just so dazzling.
00:21:48.300 Oh my God, every sentence.
00:21:51.800 Deborah knows English, the English language, she was an Oxford in English, and I was saying, oh, how I wish I had spent my life reading novels like this instead of reading these human rights reports over and over and over again and over and over and over again,
00:22:15.660 trying to find a logic or illogic in the argument, trying to find a logic in the argument, trying to find a logic or illogic in the argument.
00:22:23.600 So, Salomon, come on, Salomon, oh, okay.
00:22:25.620 I'm sorry, just complete the film.
00:22:26.680 Yeah.
00:22:27.340 So, at the end, if it weren't about truth and it weren't about justice, then I would have been, I would have had wasted my whole adult life because that's what I was searching for.
00:22:40.580 I was trying to find the facts, the truth, and follow it.
00:22:47.600 So, long ago, I don't want to deny any aspect of truth where there is.
00:22:55.040 Yes, at the beginning, my quote-unquote Jewishness came into play, but I left that behind quite a long time ago.
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00:23:35.540 So, Norman, what is the truth then?
00:23:39.040 Because you've used those words again and again.
00:23:42.920 It's obvious that truth motivates you.
00:23:45.280 It's obvious that you are motivated when you see injustice, particularly when it comes to this cause.
00:23:50.060 So, let's talk about the facts of what's happening on the ground.
00:23:53.620 What is the truth?
00:23:54.640 When you say what is the truth, or can you just be a little bit more specific, what would you like me to address?
00:24:03.720 I would like you to address what is happening to the Palestinian people on the ground, because one side says one thing, one side says another.
00:24:12.320 And also, as well, like the saying goes, the first casualty in war is the truth.
00:24:18.240 So, let's talk about what we know as far as possible.
00:24:21.520 Okay.
00:24:22.800 I would say a good place to begin, because people always ask, what would you recommend, you know?
00:24:28.780 I would say a good place to begin on the events since October 7th, I would say a good place to begin is the South African application to the International Court of Justice.
00:24:40.760 It runs to about 84 pages, and it's single-spaced with literally hundreds of footnotes, and each footnote has multiple references, sometimes 10 or 15 references.
00:24:55.740 And the references come from what I think are, by consensus, reputable, objective sources.
00:25:04.900 Most of the references, not all, but I would say the overwhelming predominance of references, are to various UN agencies.
00:25:14.580 And the picture they depict, and the picture they depict, and I've read that application several times, in fact, I just recently, a couple of days ago, re-read it for something I'm writing.
00:25:24.980 The picture they depict, first of all, let's begin with the beginning.
00:25:32.600 It's a horrifying picture.
00:25:34.760 I am absolutely astonished.
00:25:37.960 Each time I read it, I have to take a breath.
00:25:40.880 It's not only horrifying in terms of the objective numbers they present, whether it be the number of children killed, the number of children and women combined versus men killed, whether it be the number of bombs dropped in a week,
00:26:02.560 the weight of the weight of the bombs, or whether it be the number of homes that are killed, destroyed, it's not just the numbers, the objective figures.
00:26:18.580 How do you, as Oprah Winfrey would say, wrap your mind around 15,000 children killed?
00:26:26.220 How do you do that?
00:26:27.060 You know, it's not just the numbers, it's the relative numbers, not just the objective.
00:26:35.740 In the case of Ukraine, which I take you, you're familiar with, they estimate 500 children killed in two years.
00:26:44.700 In the case of Gaza, 15,006 months.
00:26:49.620 If you take the density of bombing, it's said that there was more relative destruction in Gaza than in Dresden or Hamburg during World War II.
00:27:06.220 The number of medics killed, the number of journalists killed, the number of whatever number you take,
00:27:16.100 it's in a completely different category, it's in a totally different level.
00:27:26.200 Every article, and I take it you fellows read the British press, they're constantly making the comparisons.
00:27:33.880 I read those articles.
00:27:35.160 They're constantly comparing it with other war zones.
00:27:38.260 More children killed in Gaza in six months than the number of children killed in all the other war zones,
00:27:51.020 all the other war zones in the world over three years multiplied by four.
00:28:00.620 Do you hear what I'm saying?
00:28:02.340 Yes.
00:28:02.960 You know what Gaza is?
00:28:04.620 Gaza is, sometimes people need, I think, to visualize it.
00:28:12.520 Gaza is 25 miles long.
00:28:15.820 It's less than the length of a marathon.
00:28:20.240 It's five miles wide.
00:28:23.260 You know what five miles wide is?
00:28:25.200 What that number resonates for me?
00:28:27.280 I jog every morning at the seashore, call the island seashore, five miles.
00:28:31.280 It's the length of my jog by the distance of a marathon.
00:28:39.680 Half the population, half is children.
00:28:45.880 Half.
00:28:47.780 And 80% are refugees or descendants of refugees.
00:28:54.780 Do you know what that means?
00:28:56.160 In 1948, you lost your homeland.
00:29:00.580 You were expelled from the area that became Israel.
00:29:03.880 And now, according to the last report of the World Bank,
00:29:10.540 300,000 homes have been damaged or destroyed.
00:29:15.240 72% were just destroyed.
00:29:18.460 1.3 million people have nowhere to return.
00:29:27.880 They lost their homelands.
00:29:30.520 And now they lost their homes.
00:29:31.960 You know what it means to lose a home?
00:29:34.300 I don't want to become emotive, but on the other hand,
00:29:38.160 you have to put, give life to the facts.
00:29:44.220 They not only lost their home.
00:29:49.860 They not only lost their block.
00:29:52.760 They not only lost their neighborhood.
00:29:56.400 They lost their city.
00:29:58.480 What does that mean?
00:29:59.980 It means the place has been pulverized.
00:30:07.300 They don't know where to return to.
00:30:10.160 Imagine the block you live on has been ground into dust.
00:30:18.840 That's what happened.
00:30:21.920 That's what happens when you drop these bombs
00:30:24.760 at the density and intensity that Israel has been dropping them.
00:30:31.440 That was a calculated policy.
00:30:34.840 The Israeli officials kept saying,
00:30:42.920 we're going to make Gaza unlivable, uninhabitable.
00:30:51.100 That was a calculated policy.
00:30:53.440 As one of Israel's senior advisors,
00:30:57.240 Diora Eiland, the former head of Israel's National Security Council,
00:31:03.620 he said, we are going to give them two choices,
00:31:08.200 to stay and starve or to leave,
00:31:14.000 to make Gaza uninhabitable,
00:31:18.460 to reduce it to rubble and dust.
00:31:24.460 That's Gaza.
00:31:25.820 And so, looking at the picture,
00:31:33.280 not trying to attach a broader legal label to it,
00:31:41.100 whether to call it genocide or ethnic cleansing,
00:31:45.820 we'll leave the labels aside for a moment,
00:31:49.140 because you ask me, what does Gaza look like?
00:31:51.540 I would say there's very little left in Gaza right now.
00:32:01.000 There really is.
00:32:02.180 There's very little left.
00:32:03.340 The only area which they haven't yet reduced to rubble is Rafa,
00:32:09.600 and that's their goal.
00:32:11.200 They want to turn all of Gaza.
00:32:14.900 Usually, somebody would use here a metaphor like a parking lot.
00:32:19.060 A parking lot doesn't sound right to me,
00:32:21.820 because a parking lot's too peaceful.
00:32:24.460 The image it conjures is too peaceful.
00:32:27.580 I prefer, during the U.S. war in the Philippines,
00:32:32.840 at the turn of the 20th century, 1899, around there,
00:32:37.180 there was an order given by one of the senior generals.
00:32:40.780 He said, there was one province, Luzon province, L-U-Z-O-N.
00:32:46.960 And they said, we're going to turn Luzon province
00:32:50.040 into a howling wilderness.
00:32:54.620 And when I was reading descriptions of Gaza,
00:32:59.380 that's what came to mind,
00:33:01.500 to turn it into a howling wilderness.
00:33:05.360 And that's what's been done.
00:33:06.720 Norman, this is a difficult question to ask,
00:33:10.800 but I feel that it needs to be said.
00:33:14.900 The events of October the 7th were vile, awful,
00:33:19.640 and you cannot justify that in any shape or form.
00:33:24.300 Not to say that you are,
00:33:25.200 I'm just saying that we both agree on that.
00:33:26.840 What should Israel have done afterwards?
00:33:33.620 Because it's, we look at what's happened at Gaza,
00:33:38.080 but what Hamas did was an act of war,
00:33:41.040 and it was barbaric.
00:33:42.920 And Israel had to retaliate in some shape or form.
00:33:46.800 So I guess my question to you is,
00:33:49.060 if you were Benjamin Netanyahu,
00:33:52.920 what would you have done?
00:33:54.460 Okay.
00:33:56.080 I am not going to evade questions.
00:33:58.960 Yeah.
00:34:00.300 So do not take what I'm about to say as a diversion.
00:34:05.620 And you are absolutely free to press me
00:34:09.300 and press me and press me.
00:34:11.840 But I do have to convey how I see the question.
00:34:17.540 Of course.
00:34:18.100 Your question to me has to be preceded
00:34:23.140 by what I would call an antecedent question,
00:34:27.920 which is,
00:34:29.420 what did you expect the people of Gaza to do?
00:34:34.060 What do I mean by that?
00:34:36.440 So...
00:34:37.080 Well, look, let's not get into that for this reason,
00:34:40.460 because in terms of having this discussion,
00:34:43.080 let's accept...
00:34:45.080 Let's accept...
00:34:46.320 When we had Bassamon, for example,
00:34:47.680 this was the nature of the debate we had, right?
00:34:49.500 He was saying,
00:34:50.420 well, what do you expect the Palestinians to do?
00:34:52.440 And I said,
00:34:53.140 let's accept that while they're uprising,
00:34:55.960 as Francis said,
00:34:57.000 you call that, I think, a prison outbreak?
00:35:00.360 Let's accept...
00:35:00.920 Concentration camp.
00:35:01.640 Concentration camp outbreak.
00:35:02.740 Let's say that that's what it is.
00:35:05.020 Nonetheless,
00:35:05.420 the fact is that Israel exists.
00:35:08.240 Israel was attacked in this barbaric way.
00:35:11.360 Let's say that the Palestinians have every cause
00:35:14.080 to try and free themselves in this way.
00:35:20.220 I don't know how killing lots of and raping civilians does that,
00:35:23.180 but let's set that aside.
00:35:26.100 That still leaves the question of
00:35:28.040 what should Israel do in this situation?
00:35:31.180 It still leaves that question on the table.
00:35:32.760 So let's say, without going into the detail,
00:35:35.240 just for time reasons,
00:35:36.460 that we accept everything you say
00:35:38.060 about the suffering of the Palestinian people.
00:35:40.400 Nonetheless, on top of that,
00:35:42.260 what should Israel do in this situation?
00:35:46.280 I have pondered that question.
00:35:48.600 Okay.
00:35:49.240 And I recognize that to say
00:35:53.180 that we should have done nothing
00:35:55.900 except to end the illegal
00:36:00.880 and inhuman
00:36:02.220 a blockade of Gaza,
00:36:06.360 which Richard Goldstone described as
00:36:09.060 elements of a crime against humanity
00:36:12.520 to immure two million people,
00:36:17.260 half of whom are children,
00:36:19.580 in what Israel's head
00:36:21.620 of the National Security Council,
00:36:24.200 Giora Island,
00:36:25.600 described as, quote,
00:36:27.140 a huge concentration camp.
00:36:31.500 What, uh,
00:36:33.080 your British economist,
00:36:35.480 before October 7,
00:36:37.520 he described as,
00:36:39.420 Gaza as a human rubbish heap.
00:36:44.120 The Secretary General of the...
00:36:46.300 Let's say we accept all of this,
00:36:47.980 just for the sake of argument.
00:36:49.100 Let's say we accept all of this.
00:36:51.000 I recognize that question.
00:36:53.340 Okay.
00:36:53.720 So what's the answer?
00:36:54.540 My answer is, first of all,
00:36:58.980 on a one level,
00:37:02.280 it's a little late in the day
00:37:04.780 to be asking that question.
00:37:07.760 But asking it,
00:37:11.060 you can still make the argument
00:37:14.600 that whatever Israel did,
00:37:18.680 whatever Israel did,
00:37:20.800 or excuse me,
00:37:21.340 whatever was done to Israel,
00:37:23.160 excuse me,
00:37:24.720 whatever was done to Israel.
00:37:27.600 If you, for example,
00:37:28.740 look at the South Africa application,
00:37:30.840 it begins by saying,
00:37:32.340 what happened on October 7
00:37:33.660 was horrible,
00:37:34.700 awful, terrible,
00:37:35.880 so on and so forth.
00:37:37.420 It said,
00:37:38.280 and I'm quoting it,
00:37:40.060 paraphrasing,
00:37:41.600 whatever was done to Israel
00:37:44.460 on October 7,
00:37:46.060 nothing whatsoever
00:37:49.760 could justify a genocide.
00:37:53.720 We can talk about that separately,
00:37:55.240 but what should they have done?
00:37:56.540 I don't think it's so easy.
00:37:58.220 That's not answering my question.
00:37:59.520 That's the only reason
00:37:59.980 I'm interrupting you.
00:38:01.120 As I think you've observed,
00:38:02.440 we're fair interviews.
00:38:03.500 We've given you lots of time
00:38:04.760 to answer questions.
00:38:05.500 So my question is,
00:38:08.640 what you've described
00:38:10.100 about what's happening in Gaza,
00:38:12.020 what you've described
00:38:12.880 about happening in Gaza
00:38:13.980 prior to October 7,
00:38:15.140 let's,
00:38:15.680 for the sake of argument,
00:38:16.740 let's just say
00:38:17.260 that that's all the case.
00:38:18.060 I agree with you.
00:38:18.860 I think that's a fair question.
00:38:20.240 So do I.
00:38:20.860 I've wrestled with that question.
00:38:23.040 So what should Israel have done?
00:38:24.600 I would say that,
00:38:26.260 I'm not,
00:38:26.660 again,
00:38:27.020 I'm not trying to divert.
00:38:30.040 There's two concepts
00:38:31.700 in international law,
00:38:34.000 jus ad bellum
00:38:35.000 and jus in bellum.
00:38:36.700 Jus ad bellum basically means
00:38:38.420 who's the aggressor,
00:38:39.700 who's the defender.
00:38:40.800 Okay?
00:38:41.460 That's jus ad bellum.
00:38:43.220 Jus in bellum is
00:38:44.540 how you conduct a war.
00:38:48.600 And you have to conduct a war
00:38:50.040 according to what we call IHL,
00:38:52.540 International Humanitarian Law,
00:38:54.320 the laws of war.
00:38:55.440 That's conducting.
00:38:56.820 I would say
00:38:57.900 if Israel's,
00:38:59.480 I'm not going to say
00:39:00.500 which side is right
00:39:01.460 and which side is wrong.
00:39:02.520 That's jus ad bellum.
00:39:03.560 I'm not going to discuss it.
00:39:05.160 Jus in bellum,
00:39:06.160 I would say
00:39:06.580 if you're going to carry out a war,
00:39:07.720 even if it's a war of aggression,
00:39:09.760 even if it's a war of aggression,
00:39:11.200 let's say you believe
00:39:11.960 Russia's engaged in a war
00:39:13.060 of aggression against Ukraine,
00:39:14.360 it's still bound
00:39:15.480 by the laws of war.
00:39:17.040 And even if Ukraine
00:39:18.480 is defending itself,
00:39:20.320 it too is bound
00:39:21.320 by the laws of war.
00:39:22.580 So I will say
00:39:23.660 I'm going to separate out
00:39:25.320 the question of
00:39:27.220 who's right
00:39:28.340 and who's wrong.
00:39:29.420 Yes.
00:39:29.880 And I'll simply focus
00:39:31.140 on then
00:39:31.840 the laws of war.
00:39:33.380 And I would say
00:39:33.960 whatever Israel does,
00:39:35.940 whether it's right or wrong,
00:39:37.540 it still has to obey
00:39:38.740 the laws of war.
00:39:40.340 But Israel is carrying out
00:39:41.680 what in my opinion,
00:39:43.300 not in my opinion,
00:39:44.460 what the International
00:39:45.220 Corps of Justice
00:39:46.000 described as
00:39:47.420 a plausible genocide.
00:39:49.800 So just so I'm understanding
00:39:51.160 what you're saying correctly,
00:39:52.960 are you saying
00:39:54.280 that what Israel
00:39:55.040 should have done
00:39:55.800 is retaliated
00:39:57.820 and destroyed
00:39:59.760 the organization
00:40:00.900 that attacked Israel?
00:40:02.020 No, I'm not saying that.
00:40:02.660 You're not saying that?
00:40:03.300 No.
00:40:03.480 So what should they have done?
00:40:04.580 I'm not,
00:40:05.180 I said if they choose
00:40:08.080 to engage in a war...
00:40:09.920 Then they should follow
00:40:10.640 the rules of war.
00:40:11.220 Then they have to follow
00:40:11.880 the rules of war.
00:40:12.040 But what should they,
00:40:13.040 should they have retaliated?
00:40:14.500 Should they have attempted
00:40:15.360 to take out Hamas?
00:40:16.440 Should they be trying
00:40:17.300 to kill the people
00:40:18.180 who attacked that people?
00:40:19.160 No, I would say
00:40:19.900 I cannot accept
00:40:22.220 those judgments,
00:40:24.400 the ones you just funded.
00:40:25.720 I understand them,
00:40:26.820 not necessarily your judgments,
00:40:28.220 but you're telling me.
00:40:29.160 Yeah.
00:40:29.460 Should they have...
00:40:30.440 No, I can't accept
00:40:31.640 those judgments
00:40:32.400 because it's like,
00:40:34.120 for me,
00:40:34.820 I'll just give you
00:40:37.720 the closest analogy I can.
00:40:41.700 When the events
00:40:42.600 of October 7 happened,
00:40:44.440 the first day,
00:40:45.720 it was unclear
00:40:46.640 exactly the magnitude
00:40:48.300 of what had occurred.
00:40:49.940 The numbers were being given
00:40:51.260 where 50 Israelis were killed.
00:40:53.060 It wasn't clear
00:40:53.960 if they were combatants
00:40:54.980 or civilians.
00:40:56.080 And it was only about,
00:40:57.260 you would say,
00:40:57.660 about the third or fourth day
00:40:58.920 it was clear
00:40:59.640 that a crime
00:41:01.160 of significant magnitude
00:41:02.520 had occurred.
00:41:03.240 Atrocities
00:41:03.820 of a very significant magnitude
00:41:06.100 had occurred.
00:41:08.160 By the end,
00:41:09.380 by now,
00:41:09.800 the figures,
00:41:10.340 about 850 civilians
00:41:11.700 were killed.
00:41:12.660 That's a significant,
00:41:14.080 a significant crime
00:41:15.500 by any standards.
00:41:16.400 There's no question
00:41:17.020 in my mind about that.
00:41:18.420 Even if you allow
00:41:19.240 for collateral damage
00:41:20.480 and this and that,
00:41:21.280 no.
00:41:21.720 There's something
00:41:22.260 very substantial
00:41:23.060 that occurred there.
00:41:25.000 And then I had to ask myself
00:41:26.620 exactly the question
00:41:27.660 you asked.
00:41:29.340 You know?
00:41:30.260 What should Israel have done
00:41:31.560 and how do you allocate,
00:41:33.120 so to speak,
00:41:33.740 more responsibility?
00:41:35.120 Let's leave the legal question
00:41:36.300 aside.
00:41:36.860 More responsibility.
00:41:39.120 And after thinking
00:41:40.300 about very hard,
00:41:41.620 the answer,
00:41:42.360 what resonated for me,
00:41:44.320 what seemed right for me,
00:41:45.700 was to see it in the terms
00:41:47.600 for myself as an American,
00:41:49.780 in terms of the slave rebellions.
00:41:52.200 And if you look at,
00:41:53.120 for example,
00:41:53.840 the Nat Turner Rebellion
00:41:55.040 in 1831
00:41:56.040 in the United States,
00:41:57.500 if you look at the details,
00:41:58.640 that was very ugly.
00:42:00.980 You know,
00:42:01.280 Nat Turner,
00:42:02.140 he gave the order
00:42:02.960 to his Confederates,
00:42:04.320 kill all whites.
00:42:05.220 That was the order.
00:42:06.240 Okay?
00:42:06.720 And they went from house to house.
00:42:08.440 And unlike in Gaza,
00:42:10.040 they did behead babies.
00:42:11.740 They took out an axe,
00:42:12.860 chopped off the head of babies,
00:42:14.200 cracked skulls,
00:42:15.600 killed about 61 whites.
00:42:17.360 The rebellion was repressed
00:42:18.820 very quickly.
00:42:20.760 And once I felt
00:42:22.800 that seemed like
00:42:23.980 a fairly reasonable analogy,
00:42:26.160 then the question for me
00:42:27.240 became,
00:42:27.660 how did the abolitionists,
00:42:29.960 those who opposed slavery,
00:42:32.020 how did they react
00:42:33.300 to Nat Turner's rebellion?
00:42:35.700 And it was very striking to me
00:42:37.360 when I read,
00:42:38.000 for example,
00:42:39.180 the editorial
00:42:39.960 by William Lloyd Garrison,
00:42:41.580 who was one of the famous
00:42:42.660 abolitionists in our country,
00:42:45.860 where he wrote an article
00:42:46.920 in the periodical
00:42:48.300 of the abolitionists
00:42:49.160 called The Liberator.
00:42:50.780 And he began by saying,
00:42:52.900 and this, I think,
00:42:53.720 is responsive to your question,
00:42:55.260 he began by saying,
00:42:57.660 I told you,
00:42:58.660 we told you so,
00:42:59.700 we the abolitionists.
00:43:00.880 We told you so.
00:43:02.340 We told you so.
00:43:04.200 And he said,
00:43:05.580 we told you,
00:43:07.000 if you demean these people,
00:43:09.520 degrade these people,
00:43:11.460 humiliate these people,
00:43:13.460 exploit these people,
00:43:15.520 rape these people,
00:43:17.060 if you do that,
00:43:19.560 then what happened
00:43:22.180 with Nat Turner
00:43:23.020 was inevitable.
00:43:25.800 And then...
00:43:26.520 But we've already
00:43:27.680 built that into the argument.
00:43:29.520 No, I'm sorry.
00:43:30.400 Yeah, but he never said,
00:43:31.800 he never said,
00:43:33.140 remember...
00:43:33.900 Listen, let me explain to you
00:43:35.020 where I'm coming from, okay?
00:43:36.100 So that we...
00:43:36.820 Allow me just to complete the thought.
00:43:37.980 We're just talking past each other.
00:43:39.420 No, no, we're not.
00:43:40.200 Allow me to complete the thought.
00:43:41.660 Okay.
00:43:41.940 If you read
00:43:42.900 the Liberator article
00:43:46.720 or editorial,
00:43:49.600 he never says
00:43:50.460 the U.S. government
00:43:51.920 should have retaliated
00:43:53.280 to Nat Turner.
00:43:54.380 Understood.
00:43:55.260 Okay.
00:43:55.740 So his argument is probably,
00:43:57.060 you've got to free the slaves
00:43:57.920 and none of this happens.
00:43:58.760 That's correct.
00:43:59.340 Fine.
00:44:00.380 Let's accept that.
00:44:01.500 However,
00:44:02.460 do you honestly think
00:44:03.800 that a leader of Israel
00:44:05.260 is in a position
00:44:06.160 after the biggest massacre
00:44:07.400 of Jews
00:44:07.860 since the Holocaust
00:44:08.520 to say,
00:44:09.840 you know what we should do
00:44:11.820 in reaction to this
00:44:14.800 is
00:44:15.560 free the Palestinians,
00:44:19.200 whatever that looks like.
00:44:20.220 This is never going to happen.
00:44:21.500 Right?
00:44:21.860 And I'm interested
00:44:23.160 in living in the real world
00:44:24.860 as I think you are.
00:44:26.100 If you care about
00:44:26.780 the lives of Palestinians
00:44:27.860 and Israelis
00:44:28.740 and everybody else,
00:44:30.020 that means
00:44:30.520 there has to be
00:44:31.480 some kind of way
00:44:32.360 of resolving this
00:44:33.740 that is based in reality.
00:44:35.740 And in reality,
00:44:36.960 whatever way you look at it,
00:44:37.960 you've got two tribes
00:44:38.960 that absolutely hate each other
00:44:40.460 with good reason
00:44:41.440 for both sides
00:44:42.300 to hate each other
00:44:42.940 because there's been
00:44:43.620 atrocity against both sides
00:44:45.060 throughout history.
00:44:46.280 You may argue about
00:44:47.580 who's responsible
00:44:48.480 and blah, blah, blah.
00:44:49.340 Reality on the ground is
00:44:50.740 this is where we are.
00:44:52.320 Yes.
00:44:52.720 So my question is
00:44:54.120 how should Israel
00:44:56.700 have reacted
00:44:57.400 in that situation
00:44:58.360 in the real world?
00:45:01.100 In the real world.
00:45:02.720 Right.
00:45:03.060 And I think
00:45:06.100 I have responded to you
00:45:08.060 but you can of course
00:45:09.120 quarrel with me on that.
00:45:10.580 I am quarreling with you.
00:45:11.560 As I said to
00:45:12.700 your name is?
00:45:13.660 Francis.
00:45:14.420 Francis.
00:45:15.120 You can press me
00:45:16.180 and press me
00:45:16.880 and press me.
00:45:17.480 I'm trying.
00:45:18.040 Yes.
00:45:18.460 And I will accept that.
00:45:20.900 My answer is
00:45:22.240 what I've said before.
00:45:24.440 What in the real world
00:45:26.700 should the Palestinians
00:45:29.260 have done
00:45:30.120 if they tried
00:45:32.400 negotiations
00:45:33.360 they
00:45:35.160 gestured
00:45:37.520 to supporting
00:45:38.600 either a two-state settlement
00:45:40.280 here I'm referring to Hamas
00:45:41.540 or
00:45:42.540 what they called
00:45:43.580 a hudna
00:45:44.160 a long-term ceasefire
00:45:45.600 when
00:45:46.860 in March
00:45:48.240 beginning March 30th
00:45:50.660 2018
00:45:51.860 they tried
00:45:53.900 not least
00:45:55.960 because of my
00:45:58.160 encouragement
00:45:59.120 they tried
00:46:01.620 non-violent
00:46:02.640 civil resistance
00:46:04.480 and what was
00:46:06.400 the Israeli response?
00:46:08.620 We know exactly
00:46:10.160 there's a 250-page
00:46:13.320 single-spaced
00:46:14.400 UN report
00:46:15.400 describing the response.
00:46:18.500 Israel took
00:46:19.200 its best
00:46:20.280 snipers
00:46:21.320 lined them up
00:46:23.260 along the perimeter
00:46:24.340 fence
00:46:25.040 and
00:46:26.960 while there was
00:46:29.220 this
00:46:29.500 festive
00:46:30.560 to describe
00:46:32.060 to use the word
00:46:33.320 of the UN report
00:46:34.540 atmosphere
00:46:35.800 among the Palestinians
00:46:37.320 there was music
00:46:38.880 there was dancing
00:46:39.940 there was song
00:46:40.980 the snipers
00:46:42.800 I'm quoting
00:46:43.980 the report
00:46:44.900 intentionally
00:46:46.780 targeted
00:46:48.360 children
00:46:49.040 intentionally
00:46:51.120 targeted
00:46:52.320 medics
00:46:53.880 intentionally
00:46:55.340 targeted
00:46:56.520 journalists
00:46:57.660 intentionally
00:46:59.340 targeted
00:47:00.900 disabled
00:47:02.100 people
00:47:02.740 they described
00:47:04.280 double
00:47:05.560 amputees
00:47:07.280 300 meters
00:47:09.720 from the perimeter
00:47:11.000 fence
00:47:11.680 that Israel
00:47:13.060 shot
00:47:13.640 when they
00:47:14.880 didn't
00:47:15.240 kill them
00:47:16.220 they targeted
00:47:17.820 them from the
00:47:18.780 kneecap
00:47:19.520 down
00:47:20.120 to inflict
00:47:21.580 to use the
00:47:22.360 technical term
00:47:23.400 life-changing
00:47:25.100 injuries
00:47:25.920 which for the
00:47:27.080 layperson
00:47:27.780 translates as
00:47:29.160 paralyzed them
00:47:30.820 one Israeli
00:47:32.700 sniper
00:47:33.680 boasted
00:47:34.780 to Haritz
00:47:35.800 newspaper
00:47:36.600 Israel's
00:47:37.360 most serious
00:47:38.380 newspaper
00:47:39.060 he shot
00:47:40.400 42
00:47:41.500 kneecaps
00:47:42.540 in one
00:47:43.220 day
00:47:43.640 42
00:47:45.480 children
00:47:47.120 and adults
00:47:48.160 paralyzed
00:47:49.340 for life
00:47:50.460 and so
00:47:52.040 when
00:47:53.280 all
00:47:54.360 the options
00:47:55.780 of diplomacy
00:47:57.240 non-violent
00:48:00.040 civil resistance
00:48:01.140 when they've
00:48:02.880 been exhausted
00:48:04.180 what were they
00:48:06.580 supposed to do
00:48:07.820 we've already
00:48:09.280 accepted that
00:48:10.280 for the sake
00:48:11.700 of this argument
00:48:12.340 I've said
00:48:12.760 repeatedly
00:48:13.300 let's accept
00:48:14.300 everything you're
00:48:15.160 saying about
00:48:15.760 the plight of
00:48:16.340 the Palestinian
00:48:16.920 people
00:48:17.320 none of what
00:48:19.300 you're saying
00:48:19.800 though is going
00:48:20.460 to solve
00:48:20.900 what's going
00:48:21.380 on
00:48:21.700 yeah well
00:48:22.220 to solve
00:48:22.860 it I would
00:48:23.460 say you have
00:48:24.080 to use
00:48:24.600 the convention
00:48:25.500 I'm not
00:48:25.960 by the way
00:48:26.840 just to
00:48:27.840 clarify
00:48:28.240 even though
00:48:28.940 in our
00:48:29.320 early
00:48:31.180 our conversation
00:48:32.040 before the
00:48:32.640 program began
00:48:33.360 I said I
00:48:33.980 belong to
00:48:34.480 the Marxist
00:48:35.160 Marxist
00:48:36.440 tradition
00:48:36.860 I see
00:48:37.740 myself there
00:48:38.440 I'm not
00:48:39.440 a radical
00:48:39.920 on these
00:48:40.480 subjects
00:48:41.000 if you can
00:48:42.080 hear me
00:48:42.680 through this
00:48:43.180 whole conversation
00:48:44.180 I was just
00:48:45.300 quoting
00:48:45.660 international
00:48:46.420 law
00:48:46.900 I'm not
00:48:47.460 suggesting
00:48:47.900 you're
00:48:48.160 radical
00:48:48.440 so I'm
00:48:48.900 I have
00:48:49.280 what I'm
00:48:49.680 asking
00:48:49.940 I have
00:48:50.320 a very
00:48:50.600 conventional
00:48:51.280 I have
00:48:52.020 a very
00:48:52.320 conventional
00:48:52.880 answer
00:48:53.620 to your
00:48:54.020 question
00:48:54.520 both sides
00:48:56.300 have to
00:48:56.720 sit down
00:48:57.320 they have
00:48:57.960 to accept
00:48:58.360 the terms
00:48:58.860 of
00:48:59.020 international
00:48:59.660 law
00:49:00.100 for ending
00:49:00.700 the conflict
00:49:01.380 you want
00:49:02.100 to end
00:49:02.500 it
00:49:02.740 according
00:49:03.340 to the
00:49:03.680 real world
00:49:04.260 fine
00:49:04.660 I'm not
00:49:05.560 going to
00:49:05.780 say
00:49:05.980 we have
00:49:06.560 to wait
00:49:06.860 for communism
00:49:07.440 to end
00:49:08.120 it
00:49:08.260 I'm not
00:49:08.800 going to
00:49:09.040 go through
00:49:09.340 the
00:49:09.560 we might
00:49:10.200 be waiting
00:49:10.520 a long time
00:49:11.080 right
00:49:12.180 I'm not
00:49:14.240 saying that
00:49:14.740 I'm not
00:49:15.020 saying we
00:49:15.360 have to
00:49:15.580 wait for
00:49:15.900 socialist
00:49:16.340 revolution
00:49:16.940 I'm
00:49:17.700 saying
00:49:18.080 we apply
00:49:19.580 what
00:49:19.880 everybody's
00:49:20.780 been saying
00:49:21.440 read the
00:49:22.160 South African
00:49:22.780 brief
00:49:23.180 read what
00:49:23.720 everyone says
00:49:24.440 we have to
00:49:25.340 apply the
00:49:26.140 principles of
00:49:26.880 international law
00:49:27.960 to resolve
00:49:28.820 the conflict
00:49:29.460 and that
00:49:30.260 to me
00:49:30.560 is perfectly
00:49:31.140 legitimate
00:49:31.600 now if
00:49:32.540 you want
00:49:33.020 to say
00:49:33.680 that in
00:49:35.740 the real
00:49:36.220 world
00:49:36.880 no resolution
00:49:38.660 of the
00:49:39.000 conflict
00:49:39.920 is possible
00:49:40.920 with Hamas
00:49:41.820 after October
00:49:43.420 7th
00:49:44.500 if that's
00:49:45.040 your position
00:49:45.720 and I see
00:49:46.780 you're shaking
00:49:47.260 your head
00:49:47.680 I haven't
00:49:48.600 said that
00:49:49.080 but if that's
00:49:50.560 the argument
00:49:51.200 I have to
00:49:52.580 say
00:49:52.960 then no
00:49:54.100 settlement
00:49:54.420 is possible
00:49:55.220 with a
00:49:56.300 government
00:49:57.000 that's
00:49:57.580 carrying out
00:49:58.200 a plausible
00:49:59.520 genocide
00:50:00.020 in Gaza
00:50:00.600 but I'm
00:50:01.240 not saying
00:50:01.780 that
00:50:02.080 I'm saying
00:50:03.200 those are
00:50:03.640 the parties
00:50:04.120 to the
00:50:04.440 conflict
00:50:04.860 sit down
00:50:06.100 resolve it
00:50:06.860 however I
00:50:07.620 will say
00:50:08.340 according to
00:50:09.680 current
00:50:10.280 international law
00:50:11.460 current principles
00:50:12.200 every party
00:50:13.720 has to be
00:50:14.800 held accountable
00:50:15.460 for war crimes
00:50:16.680 crimes against
00:50:17.300 humanity
00:50:17.820 and the crime
00:50:18.420 of crime
00:50:19.440 of genocide
00:50:20.000 so the fact
00:50:21.600 that they may
00:50:22.420 resolve the
00:50:23.160 conflict
00:50:23.580 in my opinion
00:50:24.520 does not
00:50:25.480 preclude
00:50:26.380 that they
00:50:27.880 should all
00:50:28.300 be held
00:50:28.680 accountable
00:50:29.220 except there
00:50:30.480 is the
00:50:30.800 alternative
00:50:31.280 you know
00:50:31.640 under the
00:50:32.480 current system
00:50:33.320 what was first
00:50:34.640 established in
00:50:35.460 South Africa
00:50:36.080 which was
00:50:36.580 called the
00:50:37.260 truth and
00:50:37.660 reconciliation
00:50:38.260 method
00:50:39.480 namely
00:50:40.020 we can't
00:50:41.200 prosecute
00:50:41.780 every person
00:50:42.860 who committed
00:50:43.400 a crime
00:50:43.820 under apartheid
00:50:44.860 it's
00:50:45.340 impossible
00:50:46.160 because there's
00:50:47.400 not going to be
00:50:47.900 many people
00:50:48.460 left
00:50:48.780 in South Africa
00:50:50.480 so we'll try
00:50:51.900 what Bishop
00:50:52.600 Tutu attempted
00:50:53.420 you know
00:50:53.880 the truth
00:50:54.360 and reconciliation
00:50:55.000 I could see
00:50:56.180 that as an
00:50:56.920 alternative
00:50:57.380 I happen not
00:50:58.480 to believe in it
00:50:59.500 I believe
00:51:00.360 never to forgive
00:51:01.180 never to forget
00:51:01.980 but that's a
00:51:02.840 personal opinion
00:51:03.580 if you can
00:51:04.520 resolve it that
00:51:05.320 way fine
00:51:06.060 and then let's
00:51:06.720 move on
00:51:07.560 I think it's a
00:51:08.320 hard thing
00:51:08.860 I have to say
00:51:09.760 but I
00:51:10.440 Norman can I
00:51:11.620 just stop you
00:51:12.180 there because
00:51:12.600 you said
00:51:13.080 never to forgive
00:51:13.820 never to forget
00:51:14.580 but look
00:51:16.520 if you look
00:51:17.340 at what happens
00:51:17.940 in Northern Ireland
00:51:18.780 what happened
00:51:19.560 in Northern Ireland
00:51:20.260 if everybody
00:51:20.940 in Northern Ireland
00:51:21.640 weren't never
00:51:22.480 to forgive
00:51:23.000 never to forget
00:51:23.840 that situation
00:51:25.400 would never
00:51:26.180 have been resolved
00:51:26.940 and where it is
00:51:27.880 now is unimaginable
00:51:29.680 to where it was
00:51:30.480 in the 1970s
00:51:31.820 and 80s
00:51:32.360 Francis
00:51:32.760 I try to be
00:51:34.980 careful in my words
00:51:36.040 of course
00:51:36.480 and I don't wish
00:51:37.220 to misrepresent
00:51:38.340 you're not
00:51:38.780 I just want
00:51:40.240 to be careful
00:51:41.020 make clear
00:51:41.860 what I said
00:51:42.540 I said
00:51:43.440 as a personal
00:51:45.020 opinion
00:51:45.980 I don't accept
00:51:48.080 it
00:51:48.340 I will tell you
00:51:49.780 why
00:51:50.100 and you'll
00:51:51.100 forgive me
00:51:51.760 the drama
00:51:52.360 but that's
00:51:52.980 my life
00:51:53.940 my being
00:51:54.820 so
00:51:56.100 after World War II
00:51:58.740 in 1979
00:52:01.060 there were
00:52:02.940 there was
00:52:03.520 a last major
00:52:04.680 trial
00:52:05.120 at that time
00:52:05.820 it was called
00:52:06.300 the last major
00:52:07.100 trial
00:52:07.500 of
00:52:08.480 Nazi war criminals
00:52:10.440 the female guards
00:52:12.440 from Meishten
00:52:13.680 their concentration camp
00:52:14.880 and my mother
00:52:16.820 was called
00:52:18.200 to be a witness
00:52:20.660 to be a witness
00:52:20.680 at the trial
00:52:21.760 and
00:52:23.660 we weren't told
00:52:29.620 I accompanied her
00:52:30.500 to the trial
00:52:31.120 we weren't told
00:52:32.680 that the guards
00:52:33.400 were released
00:52:33.980 on their own
00:52:35.000 they walked freely
00:52:36.080 in the courthouse
00:52:36.940 and they were released
00:52:38.760 on their own
00:52:39.360 recognizance
00:52:40.200 at night
00:52:40.780 and my mother
00:52:42.680 started to scream
00:52:43.800 why aren't they
00:52:44.580 in cages
00:52:45.180 they're animals
00:52:46.300 now bear in mind
00:52:48.140 it's 40 years later
00:52:50.080 it was 1979
00:52:51.180 and
00:52:53.300 at a certain point
00:52:55.540 without going into
00:52:56.340 the details
00:52:57.020 we confronted
00:52:57.860 or one of the guards
00:52:59.680 was walking
00:53:01.520 about an inch away
00:53:03.020 from me
00:53:03.540 outside the courthouse
00:53:05.000 as my mother was
00:53:06.600 on the other side
00:53:07.740 of me
00:53:08.180 it was such
00:53:10.100 a provocation
00:53:11.260 and
00:53:12.720 I confronted
00:53:14.340 that situation
00:53:15.240 I mention it
00:53:16.440 because
00:53:18.300 40 years later
00:53:20.620 that desire
00:53:23.380 for revenge
00:53:25.020 that unwillingness
00:53:27.940 to forgive
00:53:29.520 or forget
00:53:31.580 those who put
00:53:33.980 your mother
00:53:34.680 your father
00:53:36.080 your two sisters
00:53:37.900 and brother
00:53:38.980 in a gas chamber
00:53:40.980 never to forgive
00:53:43.140 never to forget
00:53:45.100 that's what I
00:53:46.860 internalize
00:53:47.860 but I
00:53:48.760 perfectly
00:53:49.740 respect
00:53:50.680 what you just said
00:53:52.220 there couldn't
00:53:53.900 have been peace
00:53:54.740 in Northern Ireland
00:53:55.740 there couldn't
00:53:57.020 have been peace
00:53:57.680 in South Africa
00:53:58.640 if that were
00:54:00.100 the attitude
00:54:01.020 taken
00:54:02.760 by the
00:54:04.700 protagonists
00:54:06.740 in that
00:54:08.300 historical drama
00:54:09.440 I said
00:54:10.540 speaking
00:54:11.600 strictly
00:54:12.280 for myself
00:54:13.240 and in
00:54:14.940 deference
00:54:16.180 to
00:54:17.360 my parents
00:54:18.840 suffering
00:54:20.200 and their
00:54:21.140 legacy
00:54:21.620 but as a
00:54:23.200 practical matter
00:54:24.240 you resolve
00:54:25.840 the conflict
00:54:26.740 according to
00:54:27.780 the principles
00:54:28.380 of international
00:54:29.300 law
00:54:29.900 and
00:54:31.380 you hold
00:54:33.100 accountable
00:54:33.720 those who
00:54:35.020 are guilty
00:54:35.540 of
00:54:36.060 crimes
00:54:37.220 under
00:54:37.800 international
00:54:39.000 law
00:54:39.400 or
00:54:40.060 you seek
00:54:41.260 some sort
00:54:41.780 of truth
00:54:42.200 and reconciliation
00:54:43.380 process
00:54:44.500 that's how I see it
00:54:46.020 and that's the only
00:54:46.820 way to be
00:54:47.480 because
00:54:47.900 so for a bit
00:54:48.980 of disclosure
00:54:49.540 half my family
00:54:50.700 is South American
00:54:51.400 but a large portion
00:54:52.980 of them particularly
00:54:53.460 my grandfather
00:54:53.980 is from the Middle East
00:54:54.940 he's from Lebanon
00:54:55.800 and
00:54:57.180 what always struck me
00:54:59.060 whenever I heard
00:54:59.880 my grandfather
00:55:00.540 talk about
00:55:01.520 Israel
00:55:02.700 was
00:55:03.840 and this is a man
00:55:05.000 who's a historian
00:55:05.700 a very learned
00:55:06.260 very educated man
00:55:07.780 there was a lack
00:55:08.880 of rationality
00:55:09.740 because of
00:55:10.820 the heightened
00:55:11.700 level of emotions
00:55:12.840 involved in this
00:55:14.540 particular conflict
00:55:15.520 and
00:55:16.720 it seems to me
00:55:18.160 and I think
00:55:18.940 we're in agreement
00:55:19.640 here
00:55:19.980 if we
00:55:21.680 always tap
00:55:23.600 into the emotion
00:55:24.500 side of it
00:55:25.180 if we always look
00:55:26.500 at the atrocities
00:55:28.120 that have been
00:55:28.420 happened on both sides
00:55:29.600 if we focus
00:55:30.380 on the anger
00:55:31.260 and the rage
00:55:32.140 and the injustice
00:55:33.060 we are never going
00:55:34.500 to be able
00:55:34.920 to move forward
00:55:35.680 and what is going
00:55:36.760 to happen
00:55:37.240 is that
00:55:37.800 future generations
00:55:39.100 will suffer
00:55:39.680 look
00:55:40.740 I told you
00:55:43.100 at the very
00:55:44.060 outset
00:55:44.580 I have
00:55:46.800 tried
00:55:47.760 to
00:55:49.260 carve
00:55:50.340 a path
00:55:51.120 whereby
00:55:52.320 I am
00:55:53.180 faithful
00:55:54.140 to facts
00:55:55.080 logic
00:55:56.080 reason
00:55:57.140 but
00:55:58.400 not
00:55:59.560 to
00:56:00.160 intellectualize
00:56:01.820 so
00:56:02.940 when you say
00:56:04.040 if we
00:56:05.300 if we
00:56:07.100 acquiesce
00:56:10.100 to passions
00:56:11.560 and emotions
00:56:13.820 I think
00:56:15.480 passions
00:56:16.920 and emotions
00:56:18.480 are integral
00:56:20.880 to justice
00:56:22.820 they are not
00:56:24.560 a
00:56:25.640 encumbrance
00:56:27.420 on justice
00:56:28.640 that's how
00:56:29.540 I see it
00:56:30.280 I can't
00:56:31.480 intellectualize
00:56:32.640 I can't
00:56:34.820 you know
00:56:35.140 the other day
00:56:35.900 I spoke
00:56:37.900 at MIT
00:56:38.560 their encampment
00:56:39.680 really impressive
00:56:41.980 you know
00:56:42.540 these are the
00:56:43.020 smartest
00:56:43.460 minds
00:56:44.960 on earth
00:56:46.380 and most
00:56:47.160 of them
00:56:47.480 in the
00:56:48.140 encampment
00:56:48.600 most
00:56:48.860 not all
00:56:49.340 were from
00:56:50.180 the Middle
00:56:50.540 East
00:56:50.900 there were
00:56:52.580 two young
00:56:53.060 men from
00:56:53.520 Gaza
00:56:53.900 two young
00:56:55.100 men from
00:56:55.500 Gaza
00:56:55.820 you know
00:56:56.680 and
00:56:58.020 after
00:57:00.320 I was at
00:57:00.840 the encampment
00:57:01.420 for about
00:57:01.780 three hours
00:57:02.400 and then I
00:57:02.920 spoke
00:57:03.340 and somebody
00:57:04.580 asked me
00:57:05.160 what is your
00:57:05.920 most
00:57:07.000 distinct
00:57:07.920 memory
00:57:08.520 of Gaza
00:57:09.280 I was only
00:57:10.120 there very
00:57:10.460 little
00:57:10.780 very
00:57:11.380 I spent
00:57:11.880 significant
00:57:12.660 time in the
00:57:13.260 West Bank
00:57:13.800 in a place
00:57:15.380 called
00:57:15.840 Hebron
00:57:16.640 Al Khalil
00:57:17.400 and in a
00:57:18.240 place called
00:57:18.680 Beit Suhor
00:57:19.180 and I said
00:57:20.620 I know it's
00:57:22.340 going to sound
00:57:22.780 strange
00:57:23.240 I said
00:57:23.760 but my
00:57:24.980 most distinct
00:57:25.760 memory
00:57:26.260 is
00:57:27.440 there was a
00:57:28.660 beautiful
00:57:29.460 library
00:57:30.060 in Gaza
00:57:31.060 a magnificent
00:57:32.960 structure
00:57:34.440 it was
00:57:35.660 donated by
00:57:36.580 Saudi Arabia
00:57:37.340 it was called
00:57:38.040 the King
00:57:38.700 Salman
00:57:39.600 Library
00:57:40.280 it was
00:57:42.000 like a
00:57:43.960 castle
00:57:44.660 you know
00:57:45.980 and when I
00:57:47.440 read in the
00:57:47.960 newspaper
00:57:48.660 it was
00:57:50.320 reduced to
00:57:51.200 rubble
00:57:51.580 it really
00:57:53.380 it left
00:57:56.880 it really
00:57:57.940 really bothered
00:57:59.240 me
00:57:59.620 you know
00:58:00.720 I saw the
00:58:01.640 kids in that
00:58:02.320 library
00:58:02.700 I saw the
00:58:03.200 librarian
00:58:03.780 the head
00:58:05.520 librarian
00:58:05.940 very dignified
00:58:06.860 woman
00:58:07.180 and
00:58:08.940 that's part
00:58:11.020 of the
00:58:11.320 picture
00:58:11.780 for me
00:58:12.440 it's not
00:58:13.520 just the
00:58:14.000 rubble
00:58:14.640 it's not
00:58:16.040 just
00:58:16.480 another
00:58:17.620 building
00:58:18.940 destroyed
00:58:20.140 it's the
00:58:22.240 children
00:58:22.700 it's the
00:58:25.460 librarian
00:58:26.260 it's human
00:58:28.680 beings
00:58:29.460 you know
00:58:30.720 I can't
00:58:32.100 and it's
00:58:32.580 passionate
00:58:33.160 and emotion
00:58:33.820 and I
00:58:35.200 I don't
00:58:35.960 think it's
00:58:37.780 sensible
00:58:38.720 if I can
00:58:40.340 use that
00:58:40.840 word
00:58:41.200 which refers
00:58:41.780 to reason
00:58:42.360 I don't
00:58:43.500 think it's
00:58:44.040 sensible
00:58:44.460 to try to
00:58:45.260 separate them
00:58:45.960 out
00:58:46.260 I don't
00:58:47.160 think we're
00:58:47.580 suggesting that
00:58:48.280 they should be
00:58:48.760 separated out
00:58:49.540 I think what
00:58:50.160 Francis is
00:58:50.760 suggesting and
00:58:51.460 I agree with
00:58:52.120 him is that
00:58:53.220 if we fail
00:58:54.220 to adequately
00:58:55.720 look at the
00:58:56.480 situation and
00:58:57.200 focus on the
00:58:57.780 future
00:58:58.160 more libraries
00:58:59.540 will be
00:58:59.880 destroyed
00:58:59.940 I totally
00:59:00.320 agree with
00:59:00.800 you
00:59:00.900 more children
00:59:03.120 will be
00:59:03.560 made
00:59:03.760 and so I
00:59:04.760 think the
00:59:05.140 conversation
00:59:05.660 that we are
00:59:06.420 trying to
00:59:06.920 have is
00:59:07.820 about how
00:59:08.800 this gets
00:59:09.260 moved forward
00:59:09.780 and you've
00:59:10.180 said that the
00:59:10.760 way it gets
00:59:11.140 moved forward
00:59:11.600 is by the
00:59:12.120 side sitting
00:59:12.680 down and
00:59:13.900 talking
00:59:14.140 and ending
00:59:14.540 the conflict
00:59:15.040 on the basis
00:59:16.380 of international
00:59:17.500 law
00:59:17.860 we'll get to
00:59:20.720 that in a
00:59:21.120 second
00:59:21.340 one of the
00:59:21.860 other things
00:59:22.300 that I
00:59:23.260 hosted a
00:59:23.820 panel at a
00:59:24.560 festival
00:59:25.200 recently which
00:59:26.140 was very
00:59:26.600 intense about
00:59:28.100 Israel and
00:59:28.600 Palestine
00:59:28.940 I was the
00:59:29.400 moderator
00:59:29.780 I was trying
00:59:30.400 to press
00:59:30.940 both sides
00:59:31.540 on their
00:59:31.840 arguments
00:59:32.260 but one
00:59:34.060 of the
00:59:34.280 interesting
00:59:34.560 things to
00:59:35.000 me was
00:59:35.300 actually
00:59:35.760 everybody
00:59:36.140 agreed
00:59:36.620 broadly
00:59:37.040 speaking
00:59:37.520 on the
00:59:38.520 ratio of
00:59:39.580 Hamas
00:59:39.940 fighters who
00:59:40.580 had been
00:59:40.840 killed to
00:59:41.880 civilians who
00:59:42.680 had been
00:59:42.900 killed
00:59:43.240 and it
00:59:44.740 was something
00:59:45.220 like total
00:59:46.140 killed 35,000
00:59:47.460 and about a
00:59:48.540 fifth of those
00:59:49.180 were Hamas
00:59:49.700 fighters
00:59:50.020 I've studied
00:59:52.300 the question
00:59:52.860 I'm not pulling
00:59:53.720 right
00:59:53.740 I don't think
00:59:55.560 there's anything
00:59:55.940 nobody knows
00:59:57.180 it's impossible
00:59:58.540 how could you
00:59:59.360 know how many
01:00:00.040 Hamas fighters
01:00:00.700 were killed
01:00:01.220 most Hamas
01:00:02.340 fighters were
01:00:02.960 killed probably
01:00:03.660 the same way
01:00:04.480 that most
01:00:05.340 Gaza civilians
01:00:07.320 were killed
01:00:07.800 in the course
01:00:08.580 of indiscriminate
01:00:09.480 carpet bombing
01:00:10.160 there's no way
01:00:11.200 to know
01:00:11.600 the Gaza
01:00:12.480 health ministry
01:00:14.140 never distinguishes
01:00:15.460 the numbers
01:00:17.400 between civilians
01:00:18.320 and combatants
01:00:19.040 killed
01:00:19.360 the number
01:00:20.260 of Hamas
01:00:21.180 people killed
01:00:22.020 in tunnels
01:00:22.540 nobody knows
01:00:23.560 because Israel
01:00:24.200 just blows up
01:00:24.980 the shafts
01:00:25.540 to the tunnels
01:00:26.040 they don't go
01:00:26.620 down for obvious
01:00:27.340 reasons
01:00:27.740 the fear of being
01:00:28.420 booby-chop
01:00:29.020 and so forth
01:00:29.640 so we don't
01:00:30.740 have any idea
01:00:31.600 what the number
01:00:32.140 of Hamas
01:00:32.620 militants killed
01:00:33.420 is
01:00:33.660 Israel just
01:00:34.540 throws out
01:00:35.160 numbers
01:00:35.580 one day
01:00:36.280 he'll say
01:00:36.640 9,000
01:00:37.440 another day
01:00:38.000 he'll say
01:00:38.320 12,000
01:00:39.160 at one news
01:00:40.140 conference
01:00:40.540 in Germany
01:00:41.260 Prime Minister
01:00:43.320 Netanyahu
01:00:43.960 said for every
01:00:44.660 civilian
01:00:45.060 for every militant
01:00:46.340 killed
01:00:46.600 one civilian
01:00:47.220 was killed
01:00:47.700 you know
01:00:48.100 a nice
01:00:48.440 one-to-one
01:00:49.020 proportion
01:00:49.500 and the person
01:00:50.660 interrogating him
01:00:51.980 said
01:00:52.500 are you saying
01:00:53.360 one civilian
01:00:54.660 one combat
01:00:55.700 and he said
01:00:56.100 yeah sure
01:00:56.660 that's what
01:00:57.040 he said
01:00:57.660 all the numbers
01:00:58.720 are just made up
01:00:59.620 well that
01:01:00.180 that wasn't
01:01:00.680 the ratio
01:01:01.620 that I was
01:01:02.080 talking about
01:01:02.620 I think
01:01:03.040 people
01:01:03.500 on the panel
01:01:04.480 that I was
01:01:04.920 hosting
01:01:05.220 it was something
01:01:05.940 like one
01:01:06.520 to five
01:01:07.060 one to six
01:01:08.100 something like that
01:01:08.800 I have no idea
01:01:09.700 I wouldn't pretend
01:01:10.400 to know
01:01:10.820 nor would I
01:01:11.820 nor would I
01:01:12.500 but let's
01:01:13.280 just for the sake
01:01:13.960 of trying to
01:01:14.920 understand this
01:01:15.640 situation
01:01:16.080 let's just say
01:01:16.820 it is something
01:01:17.520 like that
01:01:18.240 something like that
01:01:19.740 the people
01:01:21.120 who liberated
01:01:22.000 your parents
01:01:23.100 by the way
01:01:25.660 the Soviets
01:01:26.020 committed some
01:01:26.600 awful atrocities
01:01:27.500 that nobody
01:01:28.000 should defend
01:01:28.580 nobody should
01:01:29.900 defend like
01:01:30.640 the mass
01:01:31.020 rape of
01:01:31.380 German women
01:01:31.840 etc
01:01:32.180 however
01:01:32.960 the collective
01:01:34.360 allies
01:01:36.100 collectively
01:01:37.040 together
01:01:37.600 would have
01:01:38.880 killed a
01:01:39.880 hell of a lot
01:01:41.120 of civilians
01:01:41.700 in what I
01:01:42.760 think we
01:01:43.120 would agree
01:01:43.540 was the
01:01:45.080 just attempt
01:01:46.360 to end
01:01:47.040 that conflict
01:01:47.680 and the people
01:01:48.780 who had the
01:01:50.220 ability to end
01:01:50.920 that conflict
01:01:51.420 without those
01:01:52.100 civilian casualties
01:01:52.860 were the
01:01:53.460 Nazi party
01:01:54.120 who continued
01:01:54.860 to make
01:01:55.380 their last
01:01:55.960 stand
01:01:56.380 despite
01:01:57.200 being entirely
01:01:58.460 clear that
01:01:58.960 they were
01:01:59.180 going to lose
01:01:59.600 and they
01:02:00.260 exposed their
01:02:01.020 civilians to
01:02:01.640 that suffering
01:02:02.220 quite deliberately
01:02:03.020 right
01:02:03.640 I'm not sure
01:02:05.220 deliberately
01:02:05.860 you could say
01:02:06.660 recklessly
01:02:07.220 okay
01:02:08.960 they didn't
01:02:09.820 want their
01:02:10.200 civilians to be
01:02:10.980 killed but they
01:02:11.480 didn't care
01:02:11.840 if they were killed
01:02:12.480 fine
01:02:12.900 isn't that
01:02:13.940 exactly what's
01:02:14.700 happening in Gaza
01:02:15.380 meaning
01:02:17.600 meaning that
01:02:18.700 the people
01:02:19.240 in charge of Gaza
01:02:20.180 could have
01:02:20.520 handed over
01:02:20.940 the hostages
01:02:21.480 by now
01:02:21.960 could have
01:02:22.580 surrendered the
01:02:23.500 terrorists
01:02:23.840 who committed
01:02:24.260 the atrocities
01:02:24.880 on October 7th
01:02:26.080 and this would
01:02:26.920 all be over
01:02:27.420 well I would
01:02:28.600 say
01:02:28.960 if Hamas
01:02:31.060 surrendered
01:02:31.800 it would
01:02:32.820 all be over
01:02:33.780 I agree
01:02:34.640 with that
01:02:35.160 okay
01:02:35.480 if they could
01:02:36.240 declare as
01:02:37.260 Prime Minister
01:02:39.480 Netanyahu
01:02:40.200 has said
01:02:40.840 we want
01:02:41.940 an unequivocal
01:02:42.820 total victory
01:02:43.740 military victory
01:02:44.740 over Hamas
01:02:45.540 that's their goal
01:02:46.640 which is what
01:02:47.420 we wanted
01:02:47.900 in World War II
01:02:48.640 right
01:02:48.960 exactly
01:02:49.380 exactly what
01:02:50.460 we wanted
01:02:50.840 in World War II
01:02:51.300 that's why
01:02:51.720 we kept
01:02:52.060 fighting
01:02:52.400 we wanted
01:02:53.040 them to
01:02:53.480 capitulate
01:02:54.000 that's correct
01:02:54.840 right
01:02:55.140 so isn't
01:02:55.920 Israel doing
01:02:56.460 exactly the
01:02:57.020 same thing
01:02:57.460 in response
01:02:57.920 to October 7th
01:02:58.580 well there's
01:02:59.500 a slight
01:02:59.920 difference
01:03:00.540 okay
01:03:00.940 okay
01:03:01.420 if you
01:03:01.740 allow me
01:03:02.340 please
01:03:02.680 of course
01:03:03.100 the slight
01:03:03.940 difference
01:03:04.420 is
01:03:04.920 let's assume
01:03:06.600 what you
01:03:07.020 describe
01:03:07.480 happened
01:03:08.020 okay
01:03:08.940 there are
01:03:10.820 two
01:03:11.180 I should
01:03:11.860 say
01:03:12.060 there are
01:03:12.400 two
01:03:12.600 differences
01:03:13.180 number
01:03:14.460 one
01:03:15.040 after
01:03:16.360 October
01:03:18.200 7th
01:03:19.760 Israel
01:03:20.120 was
01:03:20.500 determined
01:03:21.040 that
01:03:22.040 as you
01:03:23.040 know
01:03:23.180 the
01:03:23.360 cliche
01:03:23.940 every
01:03:24.460 crisis
01:03:24.900 is an
01:03:25.420 opportunity
01:03:26.000 and
01:03:27.360 their
01:03:27.700 opportunity
01:03:28.420 came
01:03:29.100 with
01:03:29.460 the
01:03:29.900 crisis
01:03:30.320 what
01:03:30.600 happened
01:03:30.880 October 7th
01:03:32.020 and they
01:03:32.580 were determined
01:03:33.260 and they
01:03:33.700 said this
01:03:34.140 as far
01:03:34.540 back
01:03:34.780 as
01:03:34.960 2015
01:03:35.660 I
01:03:36.800 quoted
01:03:37.160 actually
01:03:37.540 at the
01:03:37.840 end
01:03:38.000 of my
01:03:38.360 book
01:03:38.900 on
01:03:39.120 Gaza
01:03:39.460 because
01:03:40.240 I
01:03:40.360 was
01:03:40.500 rereading
01:03:40.960 it
01:03:41.140 and I
01:03:41.340 noticed
01:03:41.700 it
01:03:41.940 at the
01:03:42.380 very
01:03:42.580 end
01:03:42.840 they
01:03:43.020 said
01:03:43.180 they
01:03:43.360 said
01:03:43.900 they
01:03:44.000 are
01:03:44.080 tired
01:03:44.420 of
01:03:44.580 what
01:03:44.700 they
01:03:44.840 called
01:03:45.220 these
01:03:45.880 wars
01:03:46.280 of
01:03:46.480 attrition
01:03:46.980 with
01:03:47.280 Gaza
01:03:47.620 and they
01:03:48.560 said
01:03:48.780 the
01:03:48.940 next
01:03:49.320 war
01:03:49.740 will
01:03:50.140 be
01:03:50.340 the
01:03:50.560 last
01:03:50.940 war
01:03:51.260 and
01:03:52.860 in
01:03:53.040 fact
01:03:53.260 that
01:03:53.480 seems
01:03:54.400 to be
01:03:54.980 turning
01:03:55.360 out
01:03:55.620 to be
01:03:55.860 the
01:03:56.060 case
01:03:56.320 we
01:03:56.480 don't
01:03:56.620 know
01:03:56.800 yet
01:03:57.020 know
01:03:57.240 how
01:03:57.420 it's
01:03:57.640 going
01:03:57.780 to
01:03:57.900 end
01:03:58.100 so
01:03:58.980 Israel
01:03:59.500 was
01:03:59.860 determined
01:04:00.480 after
01:04:01.440 October
01:04:01.960 7th
01:04:02.920 that
01:04:03.380 there
01:04:03.560 is
01:04:03.720 not
01:04:03.960 going
01:04:04.220 to
01:04:04.440 be
01:04:04.880 another
01:04:05.960 what
01:04:06.640 they
01:04:06.820 call
01:04:07.180 mowing
01:04:07.820 of
01:04:08.180 the
01:04:08.380 lawn
01:04:08.720 in
01:04:09.060 Gaza
01:04:09.360 this
01:04:10.760 time
01:04:11.240 they
01:04:11.540 weren't
01:04:11.840 just
01:04:12.080 going
01:04:12.340 to
01:04:12.560 cut
01:04:12.900 down
01:04:13.120 the
01:04:13.300 blades
01:04:13.780 in
01:04:14.220 Gaza
01:04:14.560 their
01:04:15.000 mowing
01:04:15.420 of
01:04:15.660 the
01:04:15.800 lawn
01:04:16.060 they
01:04:16.740 are
01:04:16.920 going
01:04:17.220 to
01:04:17.800 extirpate
01:04:18.800 pull
01:04:19.920 out
01:04:20.180 by
01:04:20.380 the
01:04:20.600 root
01:04:20.940 every
01:04:22.100 blade
01:04:23.060 of
01:04:23.500 grass
01:04:24.040 in
01:04:24.600 Gaza
01:04:24.960 so
01:04:26.180 their
01:04:27.200 goal
01:04:27.960 yes
01:04:29.440 their
01:04:30.360 goal
01:04:30.640 is
01:04:31.080 to
01:04:31.660 defeat
01:04:32.620 Hamas
01:04:33.500 to
01:04:34.320 inflict
01:04:34.760 a
01:04:35.060 massive
01:04:35.460 military
01:04:36.100 defeat
01:04:37.000 on
01:04:37.240 Gaza
01:04:37.480 but
01:04:38.060 there
01:04:38.200 is
01:04:38.320 a
01:04:38.500 second
01:04:38.840 goal
01:04:39.300 the
01:04:40.200 second
01:04:40.560 goal
01:04:41.020 is
01:04:41.660 to
01:04:42.300 once
01:04:42.940 and
01:04:43.560 for
01:04:43.860 all
01:04:44.300 resolve
01:04:45.660 this
01:04:46.560 Gaza
01:04:47.040 question
01:04:47.600 and
01:04:48.940 that
01:04:49.220 means
01:04:50.140 could
01:04:51.140 mean
01:04:51.520 three
01:04:52.400 things
01:04:53.000 it
01:04:53.760 could
01:04:53.940 mean
01:04:54.280 ethnic
01:04:54.860 cleansing
01:04:55.460 which
01:04:55.880 is
01:04:56.020 what
01:04:56.160 they
01:04:56.320 tried
01:04:56.660 during
01:04:56.940 the
01:04:57.120 first
01:04:57.380 two
01:04:57.640 weeks
01:04:57.960 as
01:04:58.300 you
01:04:58.460 will
01:04:58.600 recall
01:04:59.020 when
01:04:59.700 Secretary
01:05:00.180 of
01:05:00.540 State
01:05:00.820 Blinken
01:05:01.240 and
01:05:01.860 Ursula
01:05:02.380 van
01:05:02.720 der
01:05:02.840 Leyen
01:05:03.120 were
01:05:03.300 going
01:05:03.520 to
01:05:03.680 places
01:05:04.000 like
01:05:04.320 Egypt
01:05:04.680 and
01:05:05.360 telling
01:05:05.620 them
01:05:05.860 to
01:05:06.060 take
01:05:06.340 in
01:05:06.600 the
01:05:07.060 Gazans
01:05:07.460 Egypt
01:05:08.500 vetoed
01:05:09.440 that
01:05:09.980 so
01:05:11.220 ethnic
01:05:12.040 cleansing
01:05:12.440 at least
01:05:13.260 until
01:05:13.740 now
01:05:14.120 can't
01:05:14.560 predict
01:05:14.820 tomorrow
01:05:15.240 is not
01:05:16.220 an
01:05:16.420 option
01:05:16.820 the
01:05:17.760 second
01:05:18.120 possible
01:05:18.740 goal
01:05:19.240 is
01:05:19.920 as I
01:05:21.000 quote
01:05:21.280 Geora
01:05:21.720 Island
01:05:22.320 to
01:05:23.100 make
01:05:23.460 Gaza
01:05:23.980 uninhabitable
01:05:25.580 so
01:05:26.660 they have
01:05:27.140 only
01:05:27.400 two
01:05:27.800 choices
01:05:28.300 to
01:05:28.600 stay
01:05:28.900 and
01:05:29.140 starve
01:05:29.520 or
01:05:29.800 to
01:05:30.020 leave
01:05:30.440 and
01:05:31.360 and
01:05:31.380 the
01:05:31.560 third
01:05:31.840 goal
01:05:32.220 is
01:05:32.460 the
01:05:32.640 one
01:05:32.880 that
01:05:33.280 Prime
01:05:34.900 Minister
01:05:35.220 Netanyahu
01:05:35.900 announced
01:05:36.500 twice
01:05:37.180 to
01:05:39.140 do
01:05:40.080 to
01:05:40.420 Amalek
01:05:41.100 remember
01:05:43.340 Amalek
01:05:44.140 you
01:05:44.860 kill
01:05:45.220 every
01:05:45.800 man
01:05:46.680 woman
01:05:47.300 and
01:05:47.860 child
01:05:48.240 as
01:05:49.420 Beth
01:05:50.020 Selim
01:05:50.460 the
01:05:50.700 Israeli
01:05:51.020 Information
01:05:51.580 Center
01:05:51.980 for Human
01:05:52.520 Rights
01:05:52.860 in the
01:05:53.080 Occupied
01:05:53.580 Territories
01:05:54.260 as
01:05:55.060 Beth
01:05:55.340 Selim
01:05:55.740 put it
01:05:56.580 in
01:05:57.260 its
01:05:57.420 most
01:05:57.700 recent
01:05:58.080 report
01:05:58.580 called
01:05:59.080 Manufacturing
01:06:00.120 Famine
01:06:00.720 in
01:06:00.960 Gaza
01:06:01.320 it
01:06:02.460 said
01:06:02.800 every
01:06:04.020 Israeli
01:06:05.080 who's
01:06:05.560 gone
01:06:05.860 through
01:06:06.200 our
01:06:06.640 educational
01:06:07.480 system
01:06:08.140 every
01:06:09.320 Israeli
01:06:10.000 who's
01:06:10.760 gone
01:06:11.020 through
01:06:11.280 our
01:06:11.480 educational
01:06:12.100 system
01:06:12.700 knows
01:06:13.820 what
01:06:14.860 it
01:06:15.080 means
01:06:15.680 to
01:06:15.960 say
01:06:16.520 Amalek
01:06:17.660 everyone
01:06:19.120 understands
01:06:20.080 that
01:06:20.860 means
01:06:21.480 kill
01:06:22.380 every
01:06:23.440 man
01:06:24.360 woman
01:06:25.240 and
01:06:25.880 child
01:06:26.300 so
01:06:27.600 I
01:06:28.820 disagree
01:06:29.420 with
01:06:29.920 you
01:06:30.220 that
01:06:31.380 if
01:06:31.960 the
01:06:32.880 hostages
01:06:33.500 were
01:06:33.740 released
01:06:34.260 and
01:06:35.360 if
01:06:35.960 even
01:06:36.520 Hamas
01:06:37.120 surrendered
01:06:37.720 it
01:06:38.540 would
01:06:38.700 not
01:06:38.980 be
01:06:39.260 over
01:06:39.580 for
01:06:39.820 Israel
01:06:40.220 it
01:06:40.960 wants
01:06:41.660 to
01:06:41.940 make
01:06:42.280 this
01:06:42.820 war
01:06:43.320 the
01:06:44.060 last
01:06:44.640 war
01:06:44.980 so
01:06:45.140 just
01:06:45.340 to
01:06:45.460 be
01:06:45.540 clear
01:06:45.740 let
01:06:46.580 me
01:06:46.680 just
01:06:46.880 interject
01:06:47.540 one
01:06:47.860 thing
01:06:48.120 and
01:06:48.420 I
01:06:48.740 want
01:06:48.960 to
01:06:49.060 clarify
01:06:49.360 what
01:06:49.700 you're
01:06:49.840 saying
01:06:50.060 and
01:06:50.200 then
01:06:50.320 please
01:06:50.520 Karen
01:06:50.780 what
01:06:51.760 you're
01:06:51.960 saying
01:06:52.200 is
01:06:52.380 if
01:06:52.540 Hamas
01:06:52.880 handed
01:06:53.180 over
01:06:53.400 the
01:06:53.540 hostages
01:06:54.000 and
01:06:54.480 surrendered
01:06:54.880 the
01:06:55.140 terrorists
01:06:55.640 who
01:06:55.860 committed
01:06:56.180 October
01:06:56.580 7th
01:06:57.100 attacks
01:06:57.480 well
01:06:57.700 now
01:06:57.840 you're
01:06:57.940 adding
01:06:58.120 another
01:06:58.440 condition
01:06:59.020 well
01:07:00.360 I said
01:07:00.680 that
01:07:00.820 at the
01:07:01.020 beginning
01:07:01.240 no
01:07:01.460 you said
01:07:01.920 if
01:07:02.080 Hamas
01:07:03.620 handed over
01:07:05.080 the hostages
01:07:05.600 and the
01:07:05.980 people who
01:07:06.300 committed
01:07:06.540 I said
01:07:07.100 that right
01:07:07.420 at the
01:07:07.600 beginning
01:07:07.720 maybe you
01:07:08.100 didn't hear
01:07:08.420 Hamas
01:07:09.300 Hamas
01:07:09.320 turns
01:07:09.700 himself
01:07:10.140 in
01:07:10.480 I
01:07:11.540 thought
01:07:13.660 you were
01:07:14.120 the one
01:07:14.460 that wanted
01:07:14.800 to talk
01:07:15.240 about
01:07:15.460 the
01:07:15.620 real
01:07:15.840 world
01:07:16.320 well
01:07:17.100 that
01:07:17.460 seems
01:07:17.760 to
01:07:17.960 me
01:07:18.280 for
01:07:19.500 example
01:07:19.940 let's
01:07:21.680 take our
01:07:22.000 World War
01:07:22.320 II
01:07:22.420 example
01:07:22.780 if
01:07:23.140 Hitler
01:07:24.200 said
01:07:24.700 you know
01:07:25.280 what
01:07:25.600 we've
01:07:26.380 clearly
01:07:26.660 lost
01:07:27.080 the only
01:07:27.500 way to
01:07:27.900 save
01:07:28.120 German
01:07:28.480 civilians
01:07:28.920 from
01:07:29.140 the
01:07:29.300 suffering
01:07:29.600 that's
01:07:29.820 about
01:07:30.020 to
01:07:30.160 be
01:07:30.260 inflicted
01:07:30.700 on
01:07:31.000 them
01:07:31.520 is
01:07:32.040 to
01:07:32.200 do
01:07:32.460 what
01:07:32.860 will
01:07:33.000 eventually
01:07:33.700 happen
01:07:34.020 to me
01:07:34.320 anyway
01:07:34.580 which
01:07:34.800 is
01:07:34.920 hand
01:07:35.100 myself
01:07:35.480 over
01:07:35.740 or
01:07:35.920 kill
01:07:36.060 myself
01:07:36.460 and end
01:07:36.960 this
01:07:37.180 now
01:07:37.500 that
01:07:38.160 would
01:07:38.340 have
01:07:38.460 ended
01:07:38.640 World War
01:07:39.100 II
01:07:39.280 I'm
01:07:39.880 not
01:07:40.080 convinced
01:07:40.580 by the
01:07:40.980 way
01:07:41.200 that
01:07:41.460 will
01:07:41.640 end
01:07:42.500 the
01:07:43.060 situation
01:07:43.660 in
01:07:43.980 Gaza
01:07:44.260 I
01:07:44.700 think
01:07:45.000 Israel
01:07:45.520 has
01:07:47.480 two
01:07:47.980 goals
01:07:48.580 for
01:07:49.000 sure
01:07:49.620 to
01:07:50.420 inflict
01:07:50.980 a
01:07:51.380 military
01:07:51.860 defeat
01:07:52.480 on
01:07:52.920 Gaza
01:07:53.280 and
01:07:54.300 also
01:07:54.980 to
01:07:55.920 once
01:07:56.360 and
01:07:56.640 for
01:07:56.900 all
01:07:57.280 put
01:07:57.800 an
01:07:58.020 end
01:07:58.420 to
01:07:58.740 this
01:07:59.140 Gaza
01:08:00.100 nuisance
01:08:01.380 that's
01:08:02.060 escalated
01:08:04.300 into
01:08:04.900 a
01:08:05.260 real
01:08:05.500 problem
01:08:06.020 So this
01:08:06.300 is what
01:08:06.540 I'm
01:08:06.680 trying
01:08:06.840 to
01:08:06.960 clarify
01:08:07.400 is
01:08:08.240 it
01:08:08.420 your
01:08:08.820 view
01:08:09.300 that
01:08:10.140 if
01:08:10.360 Hamas
01:08:11.700 had
01:08:12.460 handed
01:08:12.860 over
01:08:13.080 the
01:08:13.260 hostages
01:08:13.740 or
01:08:14.100 if
01:08:14.340 today
01:08:14.840 Hamas
01:08:15.560 hands
01:08:16.020 over
01:08:16.200 the
01:08:16.340 hostages
01:08:16.800 and
01:08:17.380 hands
01:08:17.720 over
01:08:18.020 the
01:08:18.560 key
01:08:18.900 perpetrators
01:08:19.600 let's
01:08:19.960 say
01:08:20.120 for the
01:08:20.420 sake
01:08:20.600 of
01:08:20.780 argument
01:08:21.100 of
01:08:21.300 October
01:08:21.620 7th
01:08:22.300 Israel
01:08:22.860 will
01:08:23.160 carry
01:08:23.560 on
01:08:23.860 killing
01:08:24.120 people
01:08:24.480 in
01:08:24.660 Gaza
01:08:24.860 that's
01:08:25.160 your
01:08:25.260 position
01:08:25.480 I
01:08:25.920 would
01:08:26.120 say
01:08:26.600 if
01:08:31.000 they
01:08:31.560 I
01:08:32.840 would
01:08:33.020 say
01:08:33.300 in
01:08:33.520 the
01:08:33.740 real
01:08:34.080 world
01:08:34.680 those
01:08:36.160 two
01:08:36.560 goals
01:08:37.180 can't
01:08:38.040 be
01:08:38.440 disentangled
01:08:39.520 because
01:08:40.400 as you
01:08:41.800 said
01:08:42.140 Hamas
01:08:42.700 was not
01:08:43.200 going to
01:08:43.780 do
01:08:44.240 that
01:08:44.680 and
01:08:46.100 Israel
01:08:46.700 as I
01:08:47.280 said
01:08:47.680 saw
01:08:48.460 October
01:08:49.060 7th
01:08:50.020 as a
01:08:51.400 crisis
01:08:53.100 a disaster
01:08:53.940 for sure
01:08:54.640 and an
01:08:56.040 opportunity
01:08:56.800 and it
01:08:57.900 was going
01:08:58.440 to exploit
01:08:59.260 that
01:08:59.720 opportunity
01:09:00.460 to
01:09:01.500 the
01:09:01.980 hilt
01:09:02.360 now
01:09:03.440 there's
01:09:04.240 a second
01:09:04.680 point
01:09:05.120 and that's
01:09:06.140 going to be
01:09:06.440 responsive to
01:09:07.340 your
01:09:07.680 pressing me
01:09:09.080 on this
01:09:09.420 point
01:09:09.640 which I
01:09:10.080 accept
01:09:10.600 of course
01:09:12.540 I accept
01:09:13.020 it
01:09:13.260 because we
01:09:14.100 have to be
01:09:14.540 honest
01:09:14.860 and truthful
01:09:15.440 in these
01:09:15.820 matters
01:09:16.160 let's say
01:09:17.960 Hamas
01:09:18.500 did do
01:09:19.300 what you
01:09:19.900 said
01:09:20.200 okay
01:09:21.140 what would
01:09:22.680 happen
01:09:23.140 it would
01:09:24.740 be a
01:09:25.100 return
01:09:25.700 to the
01:09:27.000 status quo
01:09:27.940 anti
01:09:28.540 it would
01:09:30.060 be a
01:09:30.680 return
01:09:31.280 to
01:09:32.600 the
01:09:33.440 people
01:09:33.800 in Gaza
01:09:34.460 being
01:09:35.960 confined
01:09:36.680 I know
01:09:37.100 you don't
01:09:37.400 want to
01:09:37.660 hear about
01:09:38.100 it
01:09:38.240 because
01:09:38.460 you said
01:09:38.780 you've
01:09:38.980 already
01:09:39.200 gone
01:09:39.660 through
01:09:39.880 this
01:09:40.080 with
01:09:40.260 last
01:09:40.520 year
01:09:40.800 but
01:09:41.740 the
01:09:41.900 people
01:09:42.260 of
01:09:42.480 Gaza
01:09:42.860 it's
01:09:43.380 not that
01:09:43.680 I don't
01:09:43.900 want to
01:09:45.740 hear
01:09:45.920 about
01:09:46.200 it
01:09:46.380 it's
01:09:46.820 that
01:09:46.980 we
01:09:47.240 accept
01:09:47.660 that
01:09:47.880 for
01:09:48.020 the
01:09:48.160 sake
01:09:48.360 of
01:09:48.520 argument
01:09:48.760 and
01:09:49.300 I
01:09:49.400 don't
01:09:49.560 want
01:09:49.700 to
01:09:49.800 waste
01:09:50.000 time
01:09:50.600 the
01:09:50.620 problem
01:09:50.860 is
01:09:51.180 I
01:09:52.040 don't
01:09:52.480 want
01:09:52.660 to
01:09:52.800 fault
01:09:53.040 you
01:09:53.200 because
01:09:53.620 there's
01:09:55.340 no
01:09:55.500 reason
01:09:55.820 to
01:09:56.640 doubt
01:09:58.160 good
01:09:58.440 faith
01:09:58.860 unless
01:09:59.220 there's
01:09:59.480 evidence
01:10:00.000 of
01:10:00.540 bad
01:10:00.840 faith
01:10:01.200 so
01:10:01.460 I'm
01:10:01.600 going
01:10:01.720 to
01:10:01.820 accept
01:10:02.100 good
01:10:02.360 faith
01:10:02.620 but
01:10:03.140 you
01:10:03.300 understand
01:10:03.900 let's
01:10:04.680 say
01:10:04.880 this
01:10:05.180 particular
01:10:06.060 interview
01:10:06.540 goes
01:10:07.160 to
01:10:07.340 a
01:10:07.480 million
01:10:07.720 people
01:10:08.180 right
01:10:08.560 maybe
01:10:09.680 a
01:10:09.900 hundred
01:10:10.180 thousand
01:10:10.740 of
01:10:10.960 those
01:10:11.220 million
01:10:11.460 or
01:10:11.620 even
01:10:11.820 ten
01:10:12.100 thousand
01:10:12.480 know
01:10:13.160 about
01:10:13.640 before
01:10:14.280 October
01:10:14.760 7th
01:10:15.700 so
01:10:15.880 when
01:10:16.060 you
01:10:16.240 say
01:10:16.520 I
01:10:16.860 accepted
01:10:17.500 for
01:10:17.780 the
01:10:17.940 sake
01:10:18.200 of
01:10:18.360 argument
01:10:18.940 99%
01:10:20.580 of
01:10:20.880 the
01:10:21.060 viewers
01:10:21.640 won't
01:10:22.180 know
01:10:22.540 what
01:10:22.800 you
01:10:22.960 have
01:10:23.120 accepted
01:10:23.660 okay
01:10:23.960 in
01:10:24.220 that
01:10:24.380 case
01:10:25.820 why don't
01:10:26.040 you
01:10:26.200 tell
01:10:26.440 us
01:10:26.620 which
01:10:26.980 interview
01:10:27.400 you
01:10:27.620 have
01:10:27.800 done
01:10:28.100 that
01:10:28.320 best
01:10:28.680 describes
01:10:29.280 the
01:10:29.460 Palestinian
01:10:30.260 people
01:10:30.640 and we
01:10:31.300 will put
01:10:31.720 a pop-up
01:10:32.480 right here
01:10:33.080 on YouTube
01:10:34.260 that they can
01:10:34.820 go and watch
01:10:35.240 that what's
01:10:35.640 the best
01:10:35.960 interview
01:10:36.240 so people
01:10:38.720 can go and watch
01:10:39.380 the Candace Owens
01:10:40.020 interview to get
01:10:40.880 the detail of
01:10:41.660 what you're
01:10:41.940 talking about
01:10:42.460 okay
01:10:42.800 if
01:10:44.660 Hamas
01:10:46.640 were to
01:10:47.140 lay down
01:10:47.520 its arms
01:10:48.160 and for
01:10:48.620 argument's
01:10:49.220 sake
01:10:49.420 let's say
01:10:50.020 that would
01:10:50.900 preempt
01:10:51.560 the possibility
01:10:52.840 of Israel
01:10:53.780 executing
01:10:54.880 its other
01:10:56.320 goal
01:10:56.780 which is
01:10:57.840 to solve
01:10:59.400 the Gaza
01:11:00.300 question
01:11:00.860 what does
01:11:01.720 that mean
01:11:02.300 it means
01:11:03.500 that we
01:11:03.940 return to
01:11:04.620 the status
01:11:05.200 quo
01:11:05.560 anti
01:11:05.980 the people
01:11:07.240 of Gaza
01:11:07.900 half of
01:11:08.540 whom are
01:11:08.900 children
01:11:09.260 will be
01:11:10.260 confined
01:11:10.840 in that
01:11:11.300 same
01:11:11.640 concentration
01:11:12.460 camp
01:11:12.960 probably
01:11:13.980 it'll be
01:11:14.680 more brutal
01:11:15.440 than ever
01:11:16.140 the blockade
01:11:17.180 will be
01:11:17.980 more brutal
01:11:18.820 than ever
01:11:19.380 because of
01:11:19.920 what happened
01:11:20.500 on October 7th
01:11:21.860 and then
01:11:22.460 the people
01:11:23.000 of Gaza
01:11:23.620 will be
01:11:24.440 left
01:11:25.020 in that
01:11:26.120 concentration
01:11:26.960 camp
01:11:27.440 to languish
01:11:28.780 and die
01:11:29.560 I don't
01:11:30.780 think that's
01:11:31.280 acceptable
01:11:31.820 I don't
01:11:33.520 do you think
01:11:33.880 if they keep
01:11:34.280 fighting
01:11:34.620 they're going
01:11:34.960 to get
01:11:35.140 a better
01:11:35.380 deal
01:11:35.660 I would
01:11:37.100 say
01:11:37.560 with a
01:11:39.280 long
01:11:39.620 life
01:11:40.200 experience
01:11:41.080 politics
01:11:42.220 is wholly
01:11:43.480 unpredictable
01:11:44.980 who would
01:11:46.340 have guessed
01:11:47.000 just to give
01:11:47.840 you two
01:11:48.180 examples
01:11:48.720 who would
01:11:50.080 have guessed
01:11:50.700 that
01:11:52.020 South Africa
01:11:53.440 would rise
01:11:55.040 to the
01:11:55.400 challenge
01:11:56.020 confront
01:11:57.420 the United
01:11:57.940 States
01:11:58.540 because the
01:11:59.240 U.S.
01:11:59.500 is enabling
01:12:00.080 the whole
01:12:00.520 thing
01:12:00.820 and go
01:12:02.320 to the
01:12:02.580 International
01:12:04.280 Court of
01:12:04.960 Justice
01:12:05.300 and go
01:12:06.440 to bat
01:12:06.880 for a
01:12:07.420 poor
01:12:08.500 powerless
01:12:09.960 stateless
01:12:11.380 people
01:12:11.920 totally
01:12:12.940 unpredictable
01:12:13.680 who would
01:12:15.080 have guessed
01:12:15.560 that the
01:12:15.960 vote in
01:12:16.400 the court
01:12:17.020 was 15
01:12:19.560 to 2
01:12:20.180 I was
01:12:21.460 asked many
01:12:22.040 times before
01:12:23.160 I said
01:12:23.960 forget it
01:12:25.180 there's no
01:12:26.760 possibility
01:12:27.600 the court's
01:12:28.700 going to
01:12:29.000 find in
01:12:29.540 Gaza's
01:12:31.080 favor
01:12:31.380 or South
01:12:32.000 Africa's
01:12:32.540 favor
01:12:32.780 who would
01:12:34.000 have guessed
01:12:34.640 with young
01:12:36.620 people
01:12:37.260 facing
01:12:39.140 very
01:12:40.340 formidable
01:12:41.360 redoubtable
01:12:44.240 challenges
01:12:45.380 daunting
01:12:46.000 challenges
01:12:46.920 climate
01:12:48.000 change
01:12:48.900 mass
01:12:51.040 I call
01:12:53.540 mass
01:12:53.860 unemployment
01:12:54.360 because I
01:12:54.820 don't consider
01:12:55.280 the gig
01:12:55.680 economy
01:12:56.120 real
01:12:56.520 employment
01:12:57.020 student
01:13:00.080 debt
01:13:00.760 piled so
01:13:02.800 high
01:13:03.240 in the
01:13:04.400 midst of
01:13:04.920 all of
01:13:05.540 those
01:13:05.840 challenges
01:13:06.420 the young
01:13:08.360 people
01:13:08.980 on all
01:13:10.560 the college
01:13:11.180 campuses
01:13:11.740 seized
01:13:13.380 upon
01:13:13.880 Gaza
01:13:14.400 a poor
01:13:16.400 powerless
01:13:17.740 stateless
01:13:18.640 people
01:13:19.220 halfway
01:13:20.420 around
01:13:20.860 the world
01:13:21.460 they had
01:13:22.380 no dog
01:13:23.300 you said
01:13:24.540 most of them
01:13:25.080 are from the
01:13:25.480 Middle East
01:13:25.960 well
01:13:27.100 they clearly
01:13:27.600 have a dog
01:13:28.140 the encampments
01:13:29.420 are from
01:13:30.100 but the
01:13:30.860 campus sentiment
01:13:32.060 if you look at
01:13:33.100 for example
01:13:33.680 I was at
01:13:34.080 MIT
01:13:34.500 when they
01:13:35.860 uphold the
01:13:37.200 students
01:13:37.900 on
01:13:39.020 whether they
01:13:40.500 support
01:13:40.980 divestment
01:13:41.920 from the
01:13:43.320 university
01:13:43.740 because that's
01:13:44.140 one of the
01:13:44.500 demands
01:13:44.860 the numbers
01:13:46.280 are up to
01:13:46.820 60 and
01:13:47.480 70 percent
01:13:48.320 I was very
01:13:49.540 surprised
01:13:50.180 I was very
01:13:51.740 surprised
01:13:52.360 politics
01:13:53.320 very unpredictable
01:13:55.180 so when you
01:13:56.120 ask me
01:13:56.720 could they
01:13:57.560 have done
01:13:58.020 better
01:13:58.440 I can't
01:14:00.240 say it
01:14:01.000 I can't
01:14:02.100 answer that
01:14:02.720 I did
01:14:03.700 I'm very
01:14:05.360 interested in
01:14:05.940 talking to
01:14:06.460 people from
01:14:07.680 Gaza
01:14:07.940 young people
01:14:08.760 and I
01:14:10.220 asked them
01:14:10.740 I asked them
01:14:11.160 over and
01:14:11.640 over again
01:14:12.140 what is
01:14:12.820 the feeling
01:14:13.460 and they
01:14:14.900 said to
01:14:15.440 me
01:14:15.760 we all
01:14:17.720 knew
01:14:18.640 something
01:14:20.040 had to
01:14:21.200 happen
01:14:21.820 something
01:14:23.560 had to
01:14:24.920 give
01:14:25.340 I don't
01:14:27.060 want to
01:14:27.340 be dramatic
01:14:28.000 I'm trying
01:14:28.760 to be
01:14:29.080 faithful
01:14:29.660 to the
01:14:30.180 facts
01:14:30.660 if you're
01:14:32.280 born into
01:14:33.020 a concentration
01:14:33.820 camp
01:14:34.560 if you
01:14:36.880 live in
01:14:37.520 it
01:14:37.840 60 percent
01:14:39.140 of the
01:14:39.540 young people
01:14:40.100 in Gaza
01:14:40.720 were unemployed
01:14:42.340 because Israel
01:14:44.120 shattered
01:14:44.760 the economy
01:14:45.820 there's no
01:14:47.640 exports from
01:14:48.440 Gaza
01:14:48.720 except
01:14:49.100 occasionally
01:14:49.680 a few
01:14:50.080 strawberries
01:14:50.600 they don't
01:14:51.060 allow it
01:14:51.620 if 80
01:14:53.620 percent
01:14:54.380 of the
01:14:55.220 population
01:14:55.900 is dependent
01:14:57.460 on government
01:14:58.220 handouts
01:14:59.060 if 50
01:15:01.240 percent
01:15:01.920 are
01:15:02.880 insecure
01:15:03.960 food
01:15:06.740 insecure
01:15:07.360 as the
01:15:07.940 term goes
01:15:08.640 the head
01:15:09.900 of the
01:15:10.180 UN
01:15:10.560 Gutierrez
01:15:11.260 is no
01:15:11.680 radical
01:15:12.140 he said
01:15:13.760 in May
01:15:14.960 20th
01:15:16.020 2021
01:15:16.800 before
01:15:18.020 October 7th
01:15:19.640 he said
01:15:20.060 if you
01:15:20.400 want
01:15:21.080 a hell
01:15:22.740 on earth
01:15:23.860 those are
01:15:24.340 his words
01:15:24.960 if you
01:15:25.980 want
01:15:26.500 a hell
01:15:27.300 on earth
01:15:28.100 go look
01:15:30.020 at the
01:15:30.300 children
01:15:30.660 in Gaza
01:15:31.340 that's what
01:15:32.220 he said
01:15:32.640 that's a
01:15:33.120 quote
01:15:33.480 something
01:15:35.820 had
01:15:37.060 to give
01:15:38.180 so
01:15:39.920 in the
01:15:41.580 face of
01:15:42.320 that
01:15:42.820 and were
01:15:44.700 there
01:15:45.240 a Hamas
01:15:46.460 surrender
01:15:47.220 it would
01:15:48.980 just be
01:15:49.760 a return
01:15:51.060 to that
01:15:51.500 concentration
01:15:52.320 camp
01:15:52.780 probably
01:15:54.760 I don't
01:15:56.820 want to be
01:15:57.220 exaggerating
01:15:57.960 but let's
01:15:58.640 call it
01:15:59.000 I'll say
01:15:59.280 a thousand
01:15:59.820 times
01:16:00.360 but let's
01:16:00.760 just call
01:16:01.120 it
01:16:01.280 significantly
01:16:02.300 worse
01:16:03.760 than that
01:16:05.460 human
01:16:06.160 rubbish
01:16:07.120 sheep
01:16:07.560 so when
01:16:09.740 you say
01:16:10.180 to me
01:16:10.720 can they
01:16:11.560 do better
01:16:12.280 death
01:16:13.580 is death
01:16:14.400 nothing
01:16:15.660 can bring
01:16:16.220 back
01:16:16.720 those
01:16:17.520 35,000
01:16:19.100 who were
01:16:19.520 killed
01:16:19.960 I recognize
01:16:21.060 that
01:16:21.640 there is
01:16:22.760 no silver
01:16:23.860 lining
01:16:24.600 in a
01:16:25.360 genocide
01:16:25.920 period
01:16:27.460 full
01:16:28.320 stop
01:16:29.020 it would
01:16:29.940 be an
01:16:30.300 utter
01:16:30.660 betrayal
01:16:31.360 of my
01:16:32.500 parents
01:16:33.080 and my
01:16:33.460 family
01:16:34.020 were I
01:16:35.040 to try
01:16:35.560 to discern
01:16:36.440 or espy
01:16:37.620 a silver
01:16:38.800 lining
01:16:39.320 in what's
01:16:41.000 happened
01:16:41.560 there
01:16:42.000 and if
01:16:42.900 you want
01:16:43.240 to hold
01:16:43.960 Hamas
01:16:44.860 accountable
01:16:45.620 for it
01:16:46.260 I'm not
01:16:47.580 going to
01:16:48.200 I won't
01:16:49.620 we've had
01:16:50.200 that
01:16:50.440 discussion
01:16:51.340 what I
01:16:52.200 will say
01:16:52.900 is
01:16:53.320 if the
01:16:54.280 people
01:16:54.780 of Gaza
01:16:55.680 want to
01:16:57.320 take a
01:16:57.900 roll of
01:16:58.500 the dice
01:16:59.060 and maybe
01:17:01.100 life
01:17:02.440 for some
01:17:03.500 of them
01:17:03.920 will be
01:17:05.640 better
01:17:06.100 far be
01:17:08.180 it for
01:17:08.540 me to
01:17:09.140 tell them
01:17:09.540 not to
01:17:09.980 try
01:17:10.300 Norman
01:17:11.760 we're
01:17:12.460 missing
01:17:12.720 a part
01:17:13.060 of the
01:17:13.280 puzzle
01:17:13.540 here
01:17:13.860 which is
01:17:14.320 also
01:17:14.820 Iran
01:17:15.420 and the
01:17:17.740 fundamentalist
01:17:18.500 regime
01:17:19.060 there
01:17:19.380 which is
01:17:20.440 intent
01:17:20.960 on
01:17:21.360 obliterating
01:17:22.380 Israel
01:17:22.940 which is
01:17:23.740 intent
01:17:24.200 on funding
01:17:25.180 terrorist
01:17:26.040 organisations
01:17:27.000 around the
01:17:28.720 Middle East
01:17:29.300 if we're
01:17:31.140 talking
01:17:31.540 about
01:17:32.340 Israel's
01:17:33.600 retaliation
01:17:34.460 and your
01:17:36.100 argument that
01:17:36.860 it's what they're
01:17:37.800 committing are war crimes
01:17:38.900 Iran needs to
01:17:40.380 take some
01:17:40.860 responsibility
01:17:41.420 for this
01:17:42.080 as well
01:17:42.460 for stoking
01:17:43.220 the fires
01:17:43.880 and for
01:17:45.000 basically
01:17:46.940 helping this
01:17:48.000 situation to
01:17:48.740 come about
01:17:49.160 as well
01:17:49.540 surely
01:17:49.960 let's start
01:17:53.700 with the
01:17:54.040 factual
01:17:54.380 question
01:17:54.980 there seems
01:17:56.240 to be a
01:17:56.820 broad
01:17:57.080 consensus
01:17:57.700 among all
01:17:59.100 intelligence
01:17:59.740 agencies
01:18:00.380 including
01:18:00.860 Israeli
01:18:01.400 that
01:18:03.280 Hamas
01:18:04.120 excuse me
01:18:04.780 Hamas
01:18:05.320 did not
01:18:06.160 inform
01:18:06.820 Hezbollah
01:18:08.120 or Iran
01:18:09.280 of its
01:18:10.180 plan
01:18:10.600 on October
01:18:11.680 7th
01:18:12.600 so far as
01:18:13.380 I've read
01:18:14.180 and I've read
01:18:14.760 a lot
01:18:15.120 but I can't
01:18:15.700 say I've read
01:18:16.040 exhaustively
01:18:16.760 but I've read
01:18:17.540 a lot
01:18:17.960 nobody
01:18:19.100 so far as
01:18:20.000 I've read
01:18:20.540 makes the
01:18:21.520 claim
01:18:21.940 that
01:18:22.720 Hamas
01:18:23.260 excuse me
01:18:23.880 that Iran
01:18:24.760 was
01:18:25.780 directly
01:18:26.700 responsible
01:18:27.780 now
01:18:28.980 you might
01:18:29.700 say
01:18:30.120 what about
01:18:30.720 indirectly
01:18:31.520 responsible
01:18:32.400 so
01:18:33.480 here's how
01:18:35.200 I see
01:18:35.700 it
01:18:35.980 and we
01:18:36.520 of course
01:18:36.980 can
01:18:37.260 disagree
01:18:37.840 and you
01:18:38.240 should
01:18:38.380 press
01:18:38.700 me
01:18:38.960 it's
01:18:41.500 like
01:18:41.680 saying
01:18:42.180 the
01:18:44.460 the
01:18:45.780 Palestinians
01:18:47.220 or the
01:18:48.200 Gazans
01:18:48.760 the
01:18:49.000 Gazans
01:18:50.260 they hate
01:18:51.840 Israel
01:18:53.260 because
01:18:54.260 of
01:18:55.180 the
01:18:56.100 Hamas
01:18:56.740 propaganda
01:18:57.420 in those
01:18:58.340 UNRWA
01:18:58.880 schools
01:18:59.600 okay
01:19:00.340 now of course
01:19:01.020 the claim
01:19:01.460 about propaganda
01:19:02.480 on UNRWA schools
01:19:03.220 is nonsense
01:19:03.880 let's say
01:19:04.580 it's even
01:19:04.940 true
01:19:05.240 okay
01:19:05.820 they say
01:19:06.740 look at
01:19:07.120 these
01:19:07.360 videos
01:19:08.140 that Hamas
01:19:10.100 puts out
01:19:10.760 on its
01:19:11.240 television
01:19:11.760 network
01:19:12.700 okay
01:19:13.340 and
01:19:14.740 where
01:19:15.320 children
01:19:15.740 are taught
01:19:16.340 that Jews
01:19:16.980 are pigs
01:19:17.380 and should
01:19:18.060 be killed
01:19:18.480 and all
01:19:18.760 right
01:19:18.960 right
01:19:19.240 okay
01:19:19.800 okay
01:19:20.600 let's assume
01:19:22.080 I'm not
01:19:23.340 going to get
01:19:23.700 into the
01:19:24.080 question
01:19:24.540 about the
01:19:25.040 translations
01:19:25.640 I don't
01:19:26.440 know about
01:19:26.980 it
01:19:27.200 and references
01:19:27.880 to the
01:19:28.380 Quran
01:19:28.500 let's say
01:19:28.900 it's true
01:19:29.300 let's say
01:19:30.020 it's true
01:19:30.460 I think
01:19:31.760 to myself
01:19:32.500 do you
01:19:35.640 really need
01:19:36.240 to be
01:19:36.600 educated
01:19:37.220 about how
01:19:39.200 horrible
01:19:39.780 Israel is
01:19:40.720 by
01:19:42.120 Sesame Street
01:19:43.920 like
01:19:44.220 programs
01:19:44.940 you don't
01:19:46.820 know from
01:19:47.560 your daily
01:19:48.260 experience
01:19:49.440 do you know
01:19:50.940 what those
01:19:51.420 mowings
01:19:52.280 of the
01:19:53.040 lawn
01:19:53.480 what they
01:19:54.480 look like
01:19:55.340 I do
01:19:56.780 and here
01:19:58.260 I'm going
01:19:58.900 to claim
01:19:59.920 a certain
01:20:01.240 kind of
01:20:01.840 high ground
01:20:02.760 and expertise
01:20:03.840 I know
01:20:06.180 Operation
01:20:07.480 Cast
01:20:07.960 led
01:20:08.360 2008 to
01:20:10.220 9
01:20:10.560 I read
01:20:12.100 there were
01:20:12.460 hundreds
01:20:13.740 believe it
01:20:14.440 or not
01:20:14.960 hundreds
01:20:16.080 of human
01:20:17.120 rights
01:20:17.460 reports
01:20:18.020 on it
01:20:19.400 I read
01:20:20.320 them all
01:20:20.800 I read
01:20:22.180 them twice
01:20:22.840 I know
01:20:24.660 about
01:20:25.160 the
01:20:26.560 1400
01:20:28.500 people
01:20:29.280 killed
01:20:29.760 1200
01:20:30.300 of them
01:20:30.940 children
01:20:31.500 excuse me
01:20:33.140 1200
01:20:33.500 of them
01:20:34.040 civilians
01:20:34.820 350
01:20:36.140 of them
01:20:36.940 children
01:20:37.380 I know
01:20:38.840 about the
01:20:39.420 6300
01:20:40.640 homes
01:20:41.540 which were
01:20:42.020 damaged
01:20:42.460 or destroyed
01:20:43.300 in Gaza
01:20:44.280 I know
01:20:45.820 Pillar of
01:20:46.500 Defense
01:20:47.100 I know
01:20:48.540 Protective
01:20:49.260 Edge
01:20:49.760 which Peter
01:20:51.160 Moorer
01:20:51.780 the head
01:20:53.260 of the
01:20:53.580 International
01:20:54.180 Committee
01:20:54.740 of the
01:20:55.120 Red Cross
01:20:55.800 described
01:20:56.260 he said
01:20:57.060 after touring
01:20:57.920 Gaza
01:20:59.020 in the
01:21:00.540 aftermath
01:21:00.980 of
01:21:01.680 Protective
01:21:02.360 Edge
01:21:02.660 he said
01:21:03.580 never
01:21:04.040 in my
01:21:04.580 career
01:21:05.120 have I
01:21:06.400 seen
01:21:06.760 destruction
01:21:07.680 on the
01:21:09.100 scale
01:21:09.680 of what
01:21:10.780 I saw
01:21:11.460 in Gaza
01:21:12.660 I know
01:21:15.040 what it
01:21:15.340 was like
01:21:16.120 admittedly
01:21:17.520 intellectually
01:21:18.460 through books
01:21:19.580 but I know
01:21:20.820 and reports
01:21:21.760 but I know
01:21:22.700 the details
01:21:23.480 you don't
01:21:24.640 need
01:21:25.320 a sesame
01:21:26.920 a Hamas
01:21:27.880 sesame
01:21:28.300 streak
01:21:28.820 I don't
01:21:29.680 think that's
01:21:30.100 the point
01:21:30.440 people make
01:21:30.920 about it
01:21:31.340 sorry
01:21:32.240 could I
01:21:33.100 just interrupt
01:21:33.760 you're saying
01:21:34.760 it's Iran
01:21:36.180 sorry
01:21:36.920 can I
01:21:37.920 just interrupt
01:21:38.560 it's Iran
01:21:39.060 that's
01:21:39.680 fomenting
01:21:40.540 the problem
01:21:41.780 in Gaza
01:21:42.420 no
01:21:43.300 it's the
01:21:44.020 concentration
01:21:44.660 camp
01:21:45.440 that's
01:21:46.200 fomenting
01:21:46.940 the rage
01:21:48.080 in Gaza
01:21:48.660 also
01:21:49.200 Iran
01:21:50.000 who are
01:21:50.800 who are
01:21:52.400 also
01:21:52.900 making
01:21:53.940 this
01:21:54.260 situation
01:21:54.840 worse
01:21:55.260 Ayatollah
01:21:55.920 Khamenei
01:21:56.360 is not
01:21:56.840 interested
01:21:57.520 in peace
01:21:58.300 in the
01:21:58.960 Middle East
01:21:59.400 Ayatollah
01:22:00.400 Khamenei
01:22:00.880 is interested
01:22:01.680 in wiping
01:22:02.320 Israelis
01:22:02.900 off the
01:22:03.580 map
01:22:03.760 and every
01:22:04.380 Jew
01:22:04.700 this is
01:22:05.540 a
01:22:06.140 fundamentalist
01:22:07.280 Islamic
01:22:07.700 fundamentalist
01:22:08.600 and
01:22:09.240 rabidly
01:22:10.200 anti-Semitic
01:22:11.180 regime
01:22:11.660 so my
01:22:12.400 point is
01:22:13.080 that what
01:22:13.520 they are
01:22:13.900 doing
01:22:14.280 is creating
01:22:15.320 ever more
01:22:15.980 animosity
01:22:16.700 maybe they
01:22:17.580 are and
01:22:18.220 states have
01:22:18.920 their own
01:22:19.340 raison d'etat
01:22:20.080 I'm not
01:22:20.640 going to
01:22:20.880 deny that
01:22:21.480 I don't
01:22:22.060 live in a
01:22:22.700 never
01:22:23.900 never land
01:22:24.600 but
01:22:25.520 here's what
01:22:27.500 I would
01:22:27.820 say
01:22:28.220 number one
01:22:30.060 well I
01:22:30.600 have to
01:22:30.940 say
01:22:31.300 several
01:22:31.980 things
01:22:32.440 because I
01:22:33.600 want to
01:22:33.760 be truthful
01:22:34.200 to the
01:22:34.560 whole
01:22:34.740 record
01:22:35.080 number
01:22:36.360 one
01:22:36.900 if you
01:22:38.080 look at
01:22:38.440 the
01:22:38.620 UN
01:22:39.040 record
01:22:39.760 on
01:22:40.720 a
01:22:40.980 two
01:22:41.180 state
01:22:41.480 settlement
01:22:41.880 every
01:22:42.260 year
01:22:42.560 there's
01:22:42.820 a
01:22:42.940 UN
01:22:43.120 resolution
01:22:43.640 called
01:22:43.980 peaceful
01:22:44.300 settlement
01:22:44.720 of the
01:22:45.040 Palestine
01:22:45.380 question
01:22:45.920 okay
01:22:46.820 the entire
01:22:48.260 world
01:22:48.760 votes for
01:22:49.360 two
01:22:49.600 states
01:22:50.060 in the
01:22:50.660 general
01:22:50.880 assembly
01:22:51.240 now
01:22:51.440 not the
01:22:51.760 security
01:22:52.040 council
01:22:52.400 so we
01:22:52.740 are talking
01:22:53.000 about the
01:22:53.260 entire
01:22:53.520 world
01:22:53.780 the entire
01:22:54.740 world
01:22:55.140 votes for
01:22:55.640 two
01:22:55.880 states
01:22:56.320 on the
01:22:56.640 June
01:22:56.800 67
01:22:57.280 border
01:22:57.920 except
01:22:58.820 Israel
01:22:59.420 the United
01:22:59.920 States
01:23:00.380 and some
01:23:00.860 Pacific
01:23:01.580 Islands
01:23:02.020 Tuvalu
01:23:03.640 Tuvalu
01:23:05.880 the others
01:23:06.680 will come
01:23:07.440 to mind
01:23:07.840 Iran is
01:23:10.240 with the
01:23:10.520 majority
01:23:11.040 Iran votes
01:23:12.840 with the
01:23:13.120 majority
01:23:13.600 the
01:23:15.080 organization
01:23:15.720 of the
01:23:16.360 Islamic
01:23:16.800 Conference
01:23:17.380 the OIC
01:23:18.160 it's 57
01:23:19.240 Islamic
01:23:19.740 countries
01:23:20.300 they
01:23:21.660 supported
01:23:22.340 the two
01:23:23.180 state
01:23:23.500 settlement
01:23:23.960 Iran
01:23:25.040 voted
01:23:25.520 with the
01:23:25.900 majority
01:23:26.400 do they
01:23:27.260 dislike
01:23:27.760 Israel
01:23:28.180 no question
01:23:29.200 in my
01:23:29.480 mind
01:23:29.800 no question
01:23:30.960 in my
01:23:31.240 mind
01:23:31.460 about that
01:23:31.940 would they
01:23:32.500 like it
01:23:32.860 to disappear
01:23:33.540 yeah I
01:23:34.220 think so
01:23:34.720 and I'm
01:23:35.400 going to
01:23:35.560 return to
01:23:36.000 that question
01:23:36.680 in the
01:23:37.100 moment
01:23:37.520 so just
01:23:38.060 remind me
01:23:38.560 to get
01:23:38.820 back to
01:23:39.180 that
01:23:39.320 because I'm
01:23:40.100 not going
01:23:40.440 to deny
01:23:41.120 facts
01:23:41.580 I have a
01:23:42.440 credo in
01:23:42.940 life I
01:23:43.340 coined it
01:23:43.900 never quarrel
01:23:45.040 with facts
01:23:45.620 you know
01:23:46.540 or as
01:23:47.140 Lenin liked
01:23:47.740 to say
01:23:48.200 he liked to
01:23:48.640 quote the
01:23:49.060 British
01:23:49.340 proverb
01:23:49.800 facts are
01:23:51.280 stubborn
01:23:51.700 things
01:23:52.200 and I
01:23:53.400 turned that
01:23:53.880 into never
01:23:54.520 quarrel
01:23:54.940 with facts
01:23:55.480 so I'm
01:23:56.340 not going
01:23:56.640 to quarrel
01:23:57.460 so first
01:23:59.120 of all
01:23:59.540 that has
01:24:00.560 been the
01:24:01.760 Iranian
01:24:02.280 position
01:24:02.960 formally now
01:24:04.180 you may
01:24:04.480 tell you
01:24:04.720 when it
01:24:04.900 comes down
01:24:05.280 to brass
01:24:05.700 tax they're
01:24:06.200 not going
01:24:06.560 to sign
01:24:07.180 on
01:24:07.360 and the
01:24:07.760 funding
01:24:08.120 that they
01:24:08.600 give to
01:24:09.620 terrorist
01:24:10.120 organizations
01:24:11.020 so on the
01:24:11.760 one hand
01:24:12.180 you can be
01:24:12.960 forward facing
01:24:13.860 and say yes
01:24:14.440 we agree
01:24:14.820 with this
01:24:15.220 behind it
01:24:16.860 you're doing
01:24:17.500 something pretty
01:24:18.080 dodgy
01:24:18.480 okay
01:24:18.800 I'd like
01:24:19.660 you to
01:24:19.940 hold that
01:24:20.380 question
01:24:20.740 because I
01:24:21.000 want to
01:24:21.240 respond
01:24:21.620 to it
01:24:22.120 number
01:24:24.320 two
01:24:24.800 now I
01:24:25.680 know this
01:24:26.080 is
01:24:26.360 I'll be
01:24:27.000 accused
01:24:27.400 of what
01:24:27.840 aboutism
01:24:28.560 as that
01:24:29.200 expression
01:24:29.640 is now
01:24:30.160 used
01:24:30.520 or that
01:24:30.840 locution
01:24:31.380 what aboutism
01:24:32.120 take a
01:24:33.360 very sane
01:24:34.080 a very sane
01:24:35.100 Israeli
01:24:35.520 historian
01:24:36.200 Benny Morris
01:24:37.360 he's Israel's
01:24:38.220 chief historian
01:24:39.060 educated
01:24:39.660 at Cambridge
01:24:40.360 written
01:24:41.080 very solid
01:24:42.900 history
01:24:43.680 of the
01:24:43.940 Israel
01:24:44.240 Palestine
01:24:44.700 conflict
01:24:45.280 he's come
01:24:46.740 out for
01:24:47.140 nuking
01:24:47.520 Iran
01:24:47.960 yes
01:24:49.580 he has
01:24:50.200 said
01:24:50.520 literally
01:24:51.240 if the
01:24:52.400 United
01:24:52.740 States
01:24:53.400 does not
01:24:54.420 join
01:24:55.100 in a
01:24:56.000 conventional
01:24:56.600 war with
01:24:57.420 Israel
01:24:58.000 against
01:24:59.240 Iran
01:24:59.860 we should
01:25:01.660 use
01:25:02.500 I'm
01:25:02.840 quoting him
01:25:03.600 unconventional
01:25:05.180 weapons
01:25:06.120 against
01:25:06.900 Iran
01:25:07.380 nuclear
01:25:07.860 weapons
01:25:08.360 unconventional
01:25:09.020 is the
01:25:09.440 euphemism
01:25:09.880 for
01:25:10.240 nuclear
01:25:10.800 weapons
01:25:11.240 and he
01:25:12.660 says
01:25:13.020 and then
01:25:13.580 he asks
01:25:14.360 himself
01:25:14.720 the question
01:25:15.220 what about
01:25:16.080 all the
01:25:17.160 innocents
01:25:17.880 that are
01:25:18.620 going to
01:25:19.040 be killed
01:25:19.600 and you
01:25:20.920 know what
01:25:21.140 he says
01:25:21.720 they elected
01:25:23.760 that government
01:25:24.580 they deserve
01:25:26.260 their fate
01:25:27.080 so when you
01:25:28.760 talk about
01:25:29.640 the
01:25:31.140 Iranians
01:25:32.640 want to
01:25:33.160 wipe out
01:25:33.740 Israel
01:25:34.240 we ought
01:25:35.320 not also
01:25:36.120 to forget
01:25:36.780 that even
01:25:37.900 the sanest
01:25:39.160 most sober
01:25:40.240 of Israelis
01:25:41.340 she's not
01:25:42.820 in charge
01:25:43.260 of Israel
01:25:43.700 he's
01:25:47.860 speaking to
01:25:48.600 a broad
01:25:49.240 consensus
01:25:50.000 as are
01:25:50.680 you
01:25:50.860 you're
01:25:51.440 speaking to
01:25:52.020 a consensus
01:25:52.540 of people
01:25:52.940 it doesn't
01:25:53.240 mean you're
01:25:53.580 in charge
01:25:53.860 of the
01:25:54.100 United
01:25:54.300 States
01:25:54.540 I'm not
01:25:54.880 saying in
01:25:55.360 charge
01:25:55.760 I'm
01:25:56.000 saying in
01:25:57.060 the Israeli
01:25:57.840 mindset
01:25:59.060 especially
01:26:01.320 the leadership
01:26:02.220 they would
01:26:03.500 like to
01:26:03.920 wipe out
01:26:04.500 Iran
01:26:04.660 this is a
01:26:05.580 false
01:26:05.780 equivalence
01:26:06.300 hold on a
01:26:06.920 second
01:26:07.040 Ayatollah
01:26:07.640 Khamenei
01:26:08.160 what Francis
01:26:09.200 is saying
01:26:09.680 is funding
01:26:10.680 and giving
01:26:11.360 aid
01:26:11.720 to terrorist
01:26:12.380 organizations
01:26:12.580 that's the
01:26:12.920 third question
01:26:13.480 no no
01:26:13.920 it's the
01:26:14.220 same question
01:26:14.840 the comparison
01:26:16.620 you've made
01:26:17.100 is false
01:26:17.560 what Francis
01:26:18.380 is saying
01:26:18.880 is here's
01:26:19.880 a state
01:26:20.520 in Iran
01:26:21.200 that is
01:26:21.780 funding
01:26:22.140 and aiding
01:26:22.920 terrorism
01:26:23.500 and you've
01:26:24.320 said
01:26:24.580 well what
01:26:25.200 about the
01:26:25.640 fact that
01:26:26.060 an Israeli
01:26:26.520 historian
01:26:27.060 wants to
01:26:27.640 no no
01:26:28.140 no one
01:26:28.680 in Israel
01:26:29.100 is advocating
01:26:29.920 in government
01:26:31.140 for the
01:26:31.600 nuking of
01:26:32.200 Iran
01:26:32.560 that's
01:26:32.880 correct
01:26:33.280 at all
01:26:33.780 people
01:26:34.780 who in
01:26:35.960 the Israeli
01:26:36.360 government
01:26:36.740 is advocating
01:26:37.320 I would
01:26:37.680 actually
01:26:38.040 think
01:26:38.400 there's
01:26:38.700 a broad
01:26:39.140 consensus
01:26:39.860 I'm saying
01:26:41.620 because
01:26:42.400 they have
01:26:43.200 two options
01:26:44.560 they regard
01:26:45.880 Iran
01:26:47.160 as as they
01:26:48.000 call it
01:26:48.600 an existential
01:26:49.920 enemy
01:26:50.800 they keep
01:26:52.020 saying they
01:26:52.400 want to
01:26:52.620 wipe Israel
01:26:53.100 off the
01:26:53.400 map
01:26:53.560 I'd say
01:26:53.980 so
01:26:54.240 I wouldn't
01:26:54.880 say they
01:26:55.240 keep saying
01:26:55.920 that
01:26:56.160 I don't
01:26:56.720 agree with
01:26:57.180 it
01:26:57.320 but I'm
01:26:57.540 not going
01:26:57.840 to go
01:26:58.140 into that
01:26:58.460 I said
01:26:58.940 if you
01:26:59.160 look at
01:26:59.460 the
01:26:59.620 documentary
01:27:00.180 record
01:27:00.840 they are
01:27:02.280 on board
01:27:03.080 supporting
01:27:03.800 that two
01:27:04.340 state
01:27:04.680 settlement
01:27:05.160 that's
01:27:05.840 what the
01:27:06.100 record
01:27:06.440 shows
01:27:07.040 now
01:27:07.620 I have
01:27:08.360 to make
01:27:08.740 one
01:27:09.080 qualification
01:27:09.720 to that
01:27:10.500 because I
01:27:11.020 want to be
01:27:11.400 faithful to
01:27:12.060 the facts
01:27:12.620 but on
01:27:14.480 this question
01:27:15.080 that you
01:27:15.340 raised
01:27:15.700 and now
01:27:16.400 you repeat
01:27:17.040 it on
01:27:17.720 the funding
01:27:18.320 so you'll
01:27:19.640 forgive me
01:27:20.340 if I go
01:27:21.220 back to
01:27:21.720 international
01:27:22.320 law
01:27:22.800 international
01:27:24.080 law says
01:27:25.480 an occupying
01:27:27.300 power
01:27:27.940 there is
01:27:28.760 nothing in
01:27:29.660 international
01:27:30.300 law
01:27:30.860 that bars
01:27:32.860 an occupied
01:27:34.280 people
01:27:35.300 from
01:27:36.700 engaging
01:27:38.380 in armed
01:27:39.080 resistance
01:27:39.680 against an
01:27:40.880 occupation
01:27:41.500 there is
01:27:42.700 nothing in
01:27:43.300 international
01:27:43.820 law
01:27:44.140 to use
01:27:44.540 the technical
01:27:45.100 term
01:27:45.540 and you'll
01:27:46.040 forgive me
01:27:46.500 for it
01:27:46.860 international
01:27:47.780 law
01:27:48.580 is neutral
01:27:49.900 on
01:27:51.200 an
01:27:51.900 occupying
01:27:52.740 people
01:27:53.240 using
01:27:55.160 armed
01:27:55.740 force
01:27:56.340 to resist
01:27:57.400 an occupation
01:27:58.380 number
01:27:59.640 two
01:28:00.180 nothing
01:28:01.700 in
01:28:02.500 international
01:28:03.360 law
01:28:04.080 bars
01:28:05.840 a
01:28:06.720 country
01:28:07.680 a foreign
01:28:09.080 country
01:28:09.600 from supplying
01:28:11.000 weapons
01:28:12.220 to a
01:28:13.240 people
01:28:13.820 engaged
01:28:14.860 in armed
01:28:15.600 resistance
01:28:16.200 against an
01:28:17.600 occupation
01:28:18.280 what international
01:28:20.080 law does
01:28:21.120 prohibit
01:28:22.060 international
01:28:23.140 law it's
01:28:23.920 not neutral
01:28:24.860 it prohibits
01:28:27.000 an occupying
01:28:28.700 force
01:28:29.460 an occupying
01:28:31.220 power
01:28:31.760 from using
01:28:33.580 violent
01:28:34.360 force
01:28:35.100 to maintain
01:28:36.700 an occupation
01:28:38.540 now you might
01:28:40.180 not like
01:28:41.160 those formulas
01:28:42.400 or formulations
01:28:43.820 but
01:28:44.860 the law
01:28:46.060 is
01:28:46.560 the law
01:28:47.400 Iran
01:28:48.440 under
01:28:48.940 international
01:28:49.760 law
01:28:50.380 has the
01:28:51.460 right
01:28:52.180 to supply
01:28:53.880 weapons
01:28:54.760 to
01:28:55.840 the
01:28:56.660 resistance
01:28:57.280 in
01:28:58.000 Gaza
01:28:58.400 to
01:28:59.200 the
01:28:59.500 occupation
01:29:00.320 the
01:29:00.660 resistance
01:29:01.100 in
01:29:01.420 Gaza
01:29:01.720 to
01:29:02.140 the
01:29:02.320 occupation
01:29:02.800 may I ask
01:29:03.320 one question
01:29:03.840 just about
01:29:04.340 international
01:29:04.840 law
01:29:05.120 you're
01:29:05.520 clearly
01:29:05.840 more
01:29:06.260 knowledgeable
01:29:07.160 about
01:29:07.500 than
01:29:07.740 I am
01:29:08.260 when you
01:29:09.420 talk about
01:29:10.040 the
01:29:10.520 international
01:29:11.100 law
01:29:11.420 allowing
01:29:11.940 armed
01:29:12.440 resistance
01:29:12.880 and other
01:29:13.700 countries
01:29:14.040 supporting
01:29:14.520 that
01:29:14.840 does
01:29:15.580 that
01:29:15.820 armed
01:29:16.080 resistance
01:29:16.540 include
01:29:17.220 massacring
01:29:17.840 civilians
01:29:18.300 no of
01:29:18.960 course
01:29:19.180 not
01:29:19.460 okay
01:29:20.220 well I
01:29:20.700 think
01:29:20.840 that's
01:29:21.040 kind of
01:29:21.400 important
01:29:21.740 in this
01:29:22.080 context
01:29:22.380 because
01:29:22.720 what
01:29:22.900 Francis
01:29:23.240 is
01:29:23.460 saying
01:29:23.700 to
01:29:23.880 you
01:29:24.040 isn't
01:29:24.800 why
01:29:25.280 is
01:29:25.460 Iran
01:29:25.740 supporting
01:29:26.300 these
01:29:26.580 people
01:29:26.940 fighting
01:29:27.740 the
01:29:28.000 IDF
01:29:28.500 what
01:29:29.060 he's
01:29:29.320 saying
01:29:29.560 is
01:29:29.820 Iran
01:29:30.500 funded
01:29:31.400 and
01:29:31.740 aided
01:29:32.180 the
01:29:32.440 people
01:29:32.780 who
01:29:33.000 committed
01:29:33.400 the
01:29:33.700 largest
01:29:34.060 massacre
01:29:34.600 of
01:29:34.840 civilian
01:29:35.220 Jews
01:29:35.680 since
01:29:36.220 the
01:29:36.360 Holocaust
01:29:36.760 isn't
01:29:37.400 that
01:29:37.560 a
01:29:37.680 problem
01:29:37.980 that's
01:29:38.880 what
01:29:39.000 he's
01:29:39.200 saying
01:29:39.440 I
01:29:39.720 would
01:29:39.940 say
01:29:40.240 that
01:29:40.600 it's
01:29:41.220 we're
01:29:42.460 going to
01:29:42.700 end up
01:29:42.980 going back
01:29:43.380 to the
01:29:43.600 beginning
01:29:43.880 and I
01:29:44.180 still
01:29:44.380 have to
01:29:44.740 say
01:29:44.920 one
01:29:45.120 last
01:29:45.400 thing
01:29:45.740 answer
01:29:47.140 that
01:29:47.420 one
01:29:47.580 first
01:29:47.980 I
01:29:48.600 would
01:29:48.800 say
01:29:49.240 on
01:29:50.320 what
01:29:50.500 happened
01:29:50.900 on
01:29:51.080 October
01:29:51.540 7th
01:29:52.960 I
01:29:53.220 absolutely
01:29:54.400 acknowledge
01:29:55.660 I've
01:29:56.240 made that
01:29:56.600 very
01:29:56.880 clear
01:29:57.320 that
01:29:57.940 atrocities
01:29:58.960 occur
01:29:59.640 yes
01:30:00.160 yes
01:30:00.540 is it
01:30:02.640 wrong
01:30:02.940 that
01:30:03.140 Iran
01:30:03.420 funded
01:30:03.940 and
01:30:04.200 supported
01:30:04.640 the
01:30:04.860 people
01:30:05.140 who
01:30:05.320 committed
01:30:05.640 that
01:30:05.840 Iran
01:30:05.920 could
01:30:06.740 say
01:30:07.020 and it's
01:30:07.340 factually
01:30:07.800 true
01:30:08.160 Iran
01:30:09.020 could
01:30:09.240 say
01:30:09.480 we
01:30:09.660 didn't
01:30:09.920 know
01:30:10.100 they
01:30:10.260 were
01:30:10.360 going
01:30:10.500 to
01:30:10.600 do
01:30:10.780 that
01:30:10.960 no
01:30:11.420 they
01:30:11.580 didn't
01:30:11.860 know
01:30:12.080 it's
01:30:12.340 factually
01:30:12.780 true
01:30:13.080 now
01:30:13.360 you
01:30:14.120 could
01:30:14.320 say
01:30:14.580 they're
01:30:14.840 misrepresenting
01:30:15.900 what
01:30:16.460 happened
01:30:17.080 on
01:30:17.280 October
01:30:17.680 7th
01:30:18.280 and I
01:30:18.740 would
01:30:18.920 say
01:30:19.180 Syed
01:30:19.680 Nisrael
01:30:20.100 the
01:30:20.400 head
01:30:20.640 of
01:30:20.840 Hezbollah
01:30:21.280 because
01:30:21.520 I
01:30:21.640 listened
01:30:21.880 to
01:30:22.020 his
01:30:22.200 speeches
01:30:22.580 I
01:30:22.820 can't
01:30:23.060 speak
01:30:23.240 for
01:30:23.500 Hezbollah
01:30:24.640 itself
01:30:25.080 as an
01:30:26.020 organization
01:30:26.580 yes
01:30:27.060 I
01:30:27.280 think
01:30:27.500 he's
01:30:27.720 misrepresenting
01:30:28.680 what
01:30:29.080 happened
01:30:29.420 October
01:30:29.840 7th
01:30:30.360 I
01:30:30.800 have
01:30:31.120 no
01:30:31.300 doubt
01:30:31.580 about
01:30:31.840 that
01:30:32.140 and
01:30:33.920 the
01:30:34.160 truth
01:30:34.420 of
01:30:34.560 the
01:30:34.660 matter
01:30:34.920 I've
01:30:35.460 studied
01:30:35.700 it
01:30:35.880 pretty
01:30:36.080 closely
01:30:36.520 it's
01:30:38.940 almost
01:30:39.220 certain
01:30:39.720 in my
01:30:40.460 opinion
01:30:40.820 it's
01:30:41.180 almost
01:30:41.440 certain
01:30:41.780 Hezbollah
01:30:42.260 would not
01:30:42.640 have
01:30:42.800 done
01:30:42.980 that
01:30:43.240 well
01:30:43.920 no
01:30:44.120 it's
01:30:44.340 not
01:30:44.520 true
01:30:44.720 because
01:30:45.040 in
01:30:45.260 Syria
01:30:45.520 it's
01:30:45.740 carrying
01:30:46.020 out
01:30:46.240 massacres
01:30:46.740 so
01:30:46.920 no
01:30:47.060 I
01:30:47.300 take
01:30:47.500 that
01:30:47.660 back
01:30:47.960 I
01:30:49.600 retract
01:30:50.020 that
01:30:50.600 but
01:30:52.280 the
01:30:52.700 last
01:30:53.360 question
01:30:54.100 and
01:30:56.460 here
01:30:56.780 I'm
01:30:57.020 going
01:30:57.180 to be
01:30:57.420 very
01:30:57.740 straightforward
01:30:58.360 I
01:30:59.680 do
01:30:59.960 believe
01:31:00.740 that
01:31:01.800 what's
01:31:02.160 happened
01:31:02.560 in the
01:31:02.940 last
01:31:03.380 six
01:31:04.280 months
01:31:04.900 has
01:31:06.460 changed
01:31:07.080 the
01:31:07.320 position
01:31:07.700 of
01:31:07.960 people
01:31:08.200 like
01:31:08.520 Hezbollah
01:31:09.020 and
01:31:09.440 Iran
01:31:09.860 I
01:31:10.540 do
01:31:10.800 believe
01:31:11.360 as
01:31:12.240 a
01:31:12.900 as
01:31:15.040 a
01:31:15.440 not
01:31:15.860 just
01:31:16.160 a
01:31:16.760 metaphorical
01:31:18.100 statement
01:31:19.120 like
01:31:19.480 Israel
01:31:19.960 will
01:31:20.240 vanish
01:31:20.620 from
01:31:20.900 the
01:31:21.060 pages
01:31:21.420 of
01:31:21.700 history
01:31:22.160 I
01:31:22.960 do
01:31:23.240 believe
01:31:23.760 that
01:31:24.020 the
01:31:24.240 people
01:31:24.640 in
01:31:25.120 what's
01:31:26.440 called
01:31:26.720 the
01:31:26.900 axis
01:31:27.260 of
01:31:27.560 resistance
01:31:28.120 and
01:31:28.500 mainly
01:31:28.820 Hezbollah
01:31:29.800 and
01:31:30.280 Iran
01:31:30.700 no
01:31:31.400 longer
01:31:31.780 believe
01:31:32.220 they
01:31:32.420 can
01:31:32.600 live
01:31:32.760 with
01:31:32.920 Israel
01:31:33.240 I
01:31:33.760 do
01:31:33.940 believe
01:31:34.280 that
01:31:34.460 I
01:31:34.640 do
01:31:34.780 believe
01:31:35.140 I've
01:31:35.380 said
01:31:35.580 it
01:31:35.760 over
01:31:36.120 and
01:31:36.300 over
01:31:36.520 again
01:31:36.760 I
01:31:36.900 don't
01:31:37.900 shy
01:31:39.860 of
01:31:40.040 their
01:31:40.180 unhappy
01:31:40.660 conclusions
01:31:41.280 I
01:31:42.220 do
01:31:42.420 think
01:31:42.720 it's
01:31:42.940 become
01:31:43.280 between
01:31:43.680 Israel
01:31:44.240 and
01:31:45.160 Iran
01:31:47.060 Hezbollah
01:31:47.560 I do
01:31:47.860 think
01:31:48.100 it's
01:31:48.300 become
01:31:48.600 existential
01:31:49.320 neither
01:31:50.120 one
01:31:50.460 will
01:31:50.660 tolerate
01:31:51.080 the
01:31:51.320 existence
01:31:51.700 of
01:31:52.000 the
01:31:52.120 other
01:31:52.320 that's
01:31:53.300 why
01:31:53.540 people
01:31:54.940 despair
01:31:56.320 when
01:31:56.600 I
01:31:56.800 say
01:31:57.160 I'm
01:31:57.620 kind
01:31:58.260 of
01:31:58.440 hopeless
01:31:58.800 at
01:31:59.100 this
01:31:59.300 moment
01:31:59.640 because
01:32:00.600 I
01:32:00.820 don't
01:32:01.080 see
01:32:01.320 an
01:32:01.500 exit
01:32:01.880 I
01:32:02.320 think
01:32:02.620 after
01:32:03.360 what
01:32:03.580 Israel
01:32:03.900 did
01:32:04.200 in
01:32:04.400 Gaza
01:32:04.740 over
01:32:06.420 the
01:32:06.620 last
01:32:06.900 six
01:32:07.180 months
01:32:07.580 at
01:32:08.380 least
01:32:08.860 on
01:32:09.120 part
01:32:09.640 of
01:32:10.100 the
01:32:10.700 Hezbollah
01:32:11.260 which
01:32:12.300 has a
01:32:13.160 different
01:32:13.420 mindset
01:32:13.880 than
01:32:14.180 Iran
01:32:14.500 in my
01:32:14.780 opinion
01:32:15.160 but
01:32:15.920 at least
01:32:16.160 on the
01:32:16.360 part
01:32:16.580 of
01:32:16.720 Hezbollah
01:32:17.160 you
01:32:17.720 can't
01:32:18.080 live
01:32:18.220 with
01:32:18.380 them
01:32:18.560 the
01:32:19.260 official
01:32:19.680 position
01:32:20.260 of
01:32:20.680 Hezbollah
01:32:21.480 up until
01:32:22.300 October
01:32:22.760 7th
01:32:23.380 was
01:32:23.740 we
01:32:24.520 don't
01:32:24.800 agree
01:32:25.080 with
01:32:25.300 two
01:32:25.540 states
01:32:26.020 we
01:32:26.660 believe
01:32:26.900 Palestine
01:32:27.400 belongs
01:32:27.920 to
01:32:28.140 the
01:32:28.480 Palestinians
01:32:29.260 however
01:32:29.980 if
01:32:31.080 the
01:32:31.760 leadership
01:32:32.260 of
01:32:32.980 the
01:32:33.260 Palestinians
01:32:33.860 decides
01:32:34.660 on a
01:32:35.000 two
01:32:35.200 state
01:32:35.480 settlement
01:32:35.860 we
01:32:36.380 accept
01:32:36.860 it
01:32:37.080 that
01:32:37.460 was their
01:32:37.840 position
01:32:38.240 up until
01:32:38.960 October
01:32:39.900 7th
01:32:40.660 listening
01:32:41.320 to the
01:32:41.780 speeches
01:32:42.200 and I'm
01:32:43.620 not happy
01:32:44.080 to say
01:32:44.580 this
01:32:44.960 listening
01:32:46.100 to the
01:32:46.500 speeches
01:32:46.880 I think
01:32:47.800 their views
01:32:48.860 now change
01:32:49.600 they can't
01:32:50.020 live with
01:32:50.320 Israel
01:32:50.660 this will
01:32:52.700 for
01:32:53.820 you could say
01:32:55.120 for good or
01:32:55.640 for bad
01:32:56.080 but this
01:32:56.480 case for bad
01:32:57.420 what happened
01:32:59.000 will be a
01:32:59.600 turning point
01:33:00.240 I didn't see
01:33:01.740 that at the
01:33:02.520 beginning
01:33:02.900 at the beginning
01:33:04.240 when it happened
01:33:05.060 and friends
01:33:05.880 of mine
01:33:06.300 who are
01:33:06.500 very
01:33:06.700 knowledgeable
01:33:07.120 like
01:33:07.460 Muin
01:33:07.740 Rabbani
01:33:08.220 he said
01:33:09.620 it's a
01:33:10.320 turning point
01:33:11.040 I said
01:33:11.420 well
01:33:11.820 you know
01:33:12.220 I've seen
01:33:12.640 these
01:33:12.860 turning points
01:33:13.500 I've seen
01:33:13.880 Castlet
01:33:14.440 I've seen
01:33:14.940 pillar of
01:33:15.320 defence
01:33:15.700 I've seen
01:33:16.160 protective
01:33:16.660 edge
01:33:17.020 but now
01:33:18.040 I see
01:33:18.500 it's a
01:33:18.920 turning
01:33:19.120 point
01:33:19.480 I
01:33:20.120 reluctantly
01:33:21.900 acknowledge
01:33:23.480 that
01:33:23.860 it's a
01:33:24.760 same
01:33:24.920 is true
01:33:25.260 in Israel
01:33:25.620 no one
01:33:26.260 believes
01:33:26.540 in a
01:33:26.760 two
01:33:26.920 state
01:33:27.100 solution
01:33:27.480 in
01:33:27.640 Israel
01:33:27.800 I
01:33:28.160 don't
01:33:28.760 believe
01:33:29.840 large
01:33:30.700 no
01:33:31.560 one
01:33:32.060 the
01:33:33.100 overwhelming
01:33:33.840 consensus
01:33:34.400 is
01:33:34.820 against
01:33:35.280 it
01:33:35.460 so
01:33:36.160 neither
01:33:36.760 side
01:33:37.100 I don't
01:33:37.460 see
01:33:38.480 that's
01:33:39.540 one of
01:33:39.800 the
01:33:39.920 problems
01:33:40.460 with
01:33:41.180 this
01:33:41.400 particular
01:33:41.920 moment
01:33:42.360 most
01:33:43.140 of the
01:33:43.480 time
01:33:43.900 you
01:33:44.600 could
01:33:44.840 see
01:33:45.500 the
01:33:46.480 terms
01:33:47.020 of
01:33:47.220 a
01:33:47.400 settlement
01:33:47.760 and
01:33:48.560 then
01:33:48.680 trying
01:33:48.900 to
01:33:49.040 get
01:33:49.220 people
01:33:49.640 to
01:33:49.980 it
01:33:50.280 both
01:33:51.580 sides
01:33:51.960 to
01:33:52.280 it
01:33:52.540 now
01:33:53.380 I
01:33:53.880 don't
01:33:54.160 see
01:33:54.400 that
01:33:54.760 because
01:33:55.360 both
01:33:55.760 sides
01:33:56.240 see
01:33:56.960 that
01:33:58.100 we
01:33:58.720 cannot
01:33:59.300 co
01:34:00.260 exist
01:34:01.100 with
01:34:03.140 the
01:34:03.300 other
01:34:03.580 side
01:34:04.060 Norman
01:34:05.480 it's
01:34:06.480 been
01:34:06.620 an
01:34:06.780 absolute
01:34:07.080 pleasure
01:34:07.400 thank
01:34:07.780 you
01:34:07.960 for
01:34:08.140 coming
01:34:08.340 on
01:34:08.540 thank
01:34:08.760 you
01:34:08.860 for
01:34:09.000 taking
01:34:09.260 part
01:34:09.620 in
01:34:09.760 the
01:34:09.880 discussion
01:34:10.400 we
01:34:11.520 really
01:34:11.800 appreciate
01:34:13.860 it
01:34:14.160 the
01:34:14.280 final
01:34:14.560 question
01:34:14.940 we
01:34:15.100 always
01:34:15.480 ask
01:34:15.880 before
01:34:16.500 we
01:34:16.700 go
01:34:16.940 and
01:34:17.180 ask
01:34:17.420 your
01:34:17.660 questions
01:34:18.140 to
01:34:18.320 Norman
01:34:18.580 on
01:34:18.780 locals
01:34:19.120 is
01:34:20.040 what's
01:34:20.680 the
01:34:20.780 one
01:34:20.940 thing
01:34:21.140 we're
01:34:21.320 not
01:34:21.520 talking
01:34:21.880 about
01:34:22.140 as
01:34:22.400 a
01:34:22.540 society
01:34:22.980 that
01:34:23.200 we
01:34:23.300 really
01:34:23.520 should
01:34:23.760 be
01:34:24.000 I
01:34:26.800 would
01:34:28.940 say
01:34:29.440 speaking
01:34:30.940 as an
01:34:31.600 older
01:34:31.920 person
01:34:32.540 much
01:34:33.520 older
01:34:33.740 person
01:34:34.220 that
01:34:35.580 the
01:34:36.160 world
01:34:36.820 that
01:34:38.160 we
01:34:38.480 have
01:34:38.780 carved
01:34:39.220 out
01:34:39.680 for
01:34:40.820 the
01:34:41.300 new
01:34:41.600 generations
01:34:42.280 is
01:34:44.400 so
01:34:45.860 so
01:34:46.920 unfair
01:34:47.960 and
01:34:48.860 so
01:34:49.420 wrong
01:34:50.560 and
01:34:51.500 we
01:34:51.680 need
01:34:52.060 a
01:34:52.940 radical
01:34:53.700 transformation
01:34:55.220 to
01:34:56.540 give
01:34:56.960 the
01:34:57.860 new
01:34:58.280 generations
01:34:59.060 the
01:35:00.580 same
01:35:01.120 chances
01:35:01.880 and
01:35:03.180 opportunities
01:35:03.860 in
01:35:04.580 life
01:35:04.980 that
01:35:06.100 I
01:35:06.820 was
01:35:07.080 blessed
01:35:07.460 with
01:35:07.820 wonderful
01:35:09.380 schools
01:35:10.360 a
01:35:11.560 plentiful
01:35:12.220 society
01:35:12.960 for all
01:35:14.320 the
01:35:14.520 injustices
01:35:15.220 of the
01:35:15.680 capitalist
01:35:16.100 system
01:35:16.700 for a
01:35:17.660 large
01:35:18.180 part
01:35:18.560 not
01:35:19.180 the
01:35:19.400 whole
01:35:19.740 for a
01:35:20.720 large
01:35:21.040 part
01:35:21.440 the
01:35:21.860 system
01:35:22.240 worked
01:35:22.720 and
01:35:23.880 for
01:35:24.140 now
01:35:24.560 if
01:35:25.460 in
01:35:25.780 my
01:35:26.080 generation
01:35:26.820 the
01:35:27.880 system
01:35:28.280 worked
01:35:28.640 for
01:35:28.860 80%
01:35:29.700 of
01:35:30.040 our
01:35:30.200 country
01:35:30.620 and
01:35:31.480 it
01:35:31.620 failed
01:35:32.140 for
01:35:32.520 20%
01:35:33.560 in
01:35:34.920 the
01:35:35.160 new
01:35:35.600 world
01:35:36.140 of
01:35:36.820 the
01:35:36.980 younger
01:35:37.220 generations
01:35:37.940 it
01:35:39.180 works
01:35:39.640 for
01:35:39.860 20%
01:35:40.680 and
01:35:42.080 it's
01:35:42.300 a
01:35:42.520 catastrophic
01:35:43.280 failure
01:35:44.160 for
01:35:45.460 80%
01:35:46.260 and
01:35:47.360 that
01:35:47.640 to
01:35:47.860 me
01:35:48.120 is
01:35:49.080 what
01:35:50.200 we
01:35:50.480 should
01:35:50.680 be
01:35:50.960 thinking
01:35:51.520 about
01:35:51.840 and
01:35:52.140 I'll
01:35:52.300 just say
01:35:52.780 to round
01:35:53.580 out
01:35:53.840 the
01:35:53.980 discussion
01:35:54.500 that's
01:35:56.180 why
01:35:56.340 I
01:35:56.480 think
01:35:56.680 so
01:35:56.920 many
01:35:57.100 young
01:35:57.360 people
01:35:57.760 identify
01:35:58.400 with
01:35:58.820 Gaza
01:35:59.220 powerless
01:36:01.660 in the
01:36:03.600 face
01:36:04.200 of this
01:36:04.880 juggernaut
01:36:06.400 of power
01:36:07.520 and
01:36:09.040 obviously
01:36:09.860 it's
01:36:10.620 at a
01:36:10.920 whole
01:36:11.480 different
01:36:11.920 level
01:36:12.300 in
01:36:12.540 Gaza
01:36:12.880 but
01:36:13.980 the
01:36:14.160 young
01:36:14.400 people
01:36:14.740 have
01:36:14.960 that
01:36:15.180 same
01:36:15.600 feeling
01:36:16.220 poor
01:36:18.020 powerless
01:36:19.300 hopeless
01:36:20.740 in the
01:36:22.220 face
01:36:22.680 in the
01:36:23.260 face
01:36:25.600 heartless
01:36:26.240 juggernaut
01:36:27.640 of power
01:36:28.460 that's
01:36:29.720 Gaza
01:36:30.240 obviously
01:36:31.720 on a
01:36:32.200 vastly
01:36:33.140 smaller
01:36:34.060 level
01:36:35.160 but it's
01:36:36.100 also the
01:36:36.880 young
01:36:37.140 people
01:36:37.640 in my
01:36:38.660 own
01:36:38.980 country
01:36:39.460 and
01:36:40.720 that's
01:36:41.280 why
01:36:41.580 in my
01:36:42.040 view
01:36:42.360 they have
01:36:44.000 seized
01:36:44.640 on this
01:36:45.220 Gaza
01:36:45.580 issue
01:36:46.560 because
01:36:47.620 they see
01:36:48.220 themselves
01:36:48.860 obviously
01:36:49.800 in a
01:36:51.960 different
01:36:52.300 level
01:36:52.760 they see
01:36:53.640 themselves
01:36:54.260 in it
01:36:54.680 that's
01:36:56.460 my
01:36:56.660 impression
01:36:57.120 Norman
01:36:58.380 Finkelstein
01:36:58.860 thank you
01:36:59.240 so much
01:36:59.540 for coming
01:36:59.860 on
01:37:00.080 head on
01:37:00.540 over to
01:37:00.900 locals
01:37:01.200 where we
01:37:01.580 ask
01:37:01.940 Norman
01:37:02.360 your
01:37:02.580 questions
01:37:03.040 Hamas
01:37:05.300 follow a
01:37:05.940 radical
01:37:06.300 version
01:37:06.740 of
01:37:06.920 Islam
01:37:07.320 this
01:37:07.920 version
01:37:08.260 has a
01:37:08.640 tradition
01:37:09.040 or
01:37:09.260 hadith
01:37:09.660 which
01:37:09.920 describes
01:37:10.400 an
01:37:10.580 end
01:37:10.780 time
01:37:10.960 prophecy
01:37:11.360 in which
01:37:11.720 Muslims
01:37:12.100 kill
01:37:12.420 Jews
01:37:12.820 how do
01:37:13.720 you
01:37:13.880 expect
01:37:14.280 Jews
01:37:14.620 to
01:37:14.840 reason
01:37:15.120 with
01:37:15.320 Muslims
01:37:15.660 when
01:37:15.900 they
01:37:16.040 seem
01:37:16.240 to
01:37:16.360 be
01:37:16.520 radicalized
01:37:17.140 with
01:37:17.280 such
01:37:17.500 suspicion
01:37:17.960 and
01:37:18.140 hatred
01:37:18.500 when
01:37:19.000 it's
01:37:19.220 inbuilt
01:37:19.640 in
01:37:19.840 Islam