TRIGGERnometry - ＂It's Not As Bad As You Think＂ - Simon Jenkins

00:00:00.000 I think there's absolutely one universal characteristic of getting older,

00:00:03.620 is you don't think things are quite as bad as younger people think they are.

00:00:13.220 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:17.380 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:18.560 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:23.940 Our brilliant guest today is an author and Guardian journalist, Simon Jenkins.

00:00:27.760 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:28.960 It's great to have you on the show.

00:00:30.980 Before we get into the conversation itself, tell everybody a little bit about who you are.

00:00:35.360 How are you where you are? What has been your journey through life?

00:00:39.760 How long have you got?

00:00:41.020 We've got an hour, so fire away.

00:00:43.580 No, I left university. I think I wanted to be an academic.

00:00:46.620 And I wanted to use academia as a way into politics because I was interested in politics.

00:00:50.800 Sort of mildly left the centre then.

00:00:53.720 I didn't like academia. I disliked universities very much.

00:00:56.760 I spent a year and a half in one after graduating and chucked that in.

00:01:02.140 I became very interested in politics because to me it's the sign of a living person.

00:01:07.700 They were interested in politics.

00:01:08.580 But I was a journalist from student days and I always loved journalism.

00:01:15.100 I still do and I've done it ever since.

00:01:17.520 In that time I've done other jobs.

00:01:19.460 I've done other sorts of...

00:01:20.780 I've been editing as well as writing in journalism.

00:01:22.920 I believe journalists should do other jobs as well because it gives them a taste of what the rest of life is like.

00:01:32.000 And written books on architecture, history and so on.

00:01:35.800 But journalism, I can't stop having an opinion.

00:01:39.500 Great. And look, you've had a distinguished career, of course.

00:01:42.260 One of the things we were talking about before we started is Francis, you know, the depressive character that he is was giving you all doom and gloom about where we are and talking about how we're in a political crisis.

00:01:53.420 And you were sort of going, well, yes, but...

00:01:56.820 So give us the but.

00:01:57.700 Give us a historical but to that perspective.

00:02:00.040 I think there's absolutely one universal characteristic of getting older is you don't think things are quite as bad as younger people think they are.

00:02:08.480 I mean, you think everything's bad because that's what old people do. 1.00

00:02:11.800 But there is a sense in which you've seen it before.

00:02:14.900 And I always remember my parents saying to me, no one could understand the interwar years in Britain who knew about the Second World War.

00:02:22.660 You just, you had to know or experience the pattern of events to judge the past.

00:02:29.460 And this business at the moment of endlessly judging the past or re-judging the past, I just find very offensive.

00:02:35.120 Because, you know, we aren't there. We're here.

00:02:37.940 We're not in a position to judge. We're in a position to record and see what's happening.

00:02:42.360 But it's easy to say every... I mean, when I was a student, we thought our politicians were rubbish, absolutely rubbish. 0.99

00:02:48.540 And looking back on them, we think they were titans. 0.99

00:02:50.840 You know, these are great men.

00:02:52.660 And I'm sure it's the same today.

00:02:55.140 I genuinely think that the present generation of politicians in Britain are the worst ever.

00:02:59.460 I couldn't disagree with that.

00:03:01.100 Certainly the worst in the 20th century.

00:03:02.880 But I then stopped and think to myself, you know, I was a student in the Heath government. 0.79

00:03:06.680 We thought they were useless.

00:03:08.740 The Labour government, the country was a terrible mess in the mid to late 70s.

00:03:13.400 A real mess.

00:03:15.000 Thatcher was hated.

00:03:17.640 I think she was actually a very interesting prime minister, but she was hated. 0.92

00:03:20.460 It's a part of the duty of Democrats to hate their government.

00:03:25.320 The sign of a good democratic democracy is it votes its government out of office regularly.

00:03:30.040 So I'm fairly sanguine about the state of the world.

00:03:34.820 And I do think that...

00:03:36.100 I've always thought democracy was never necessarily going to triumph.

00:03:40.320 I mean, dictatorship is a much more popular form of government, really.

00:03:42.880 But at the same time, things do get better.

00:03:47.560 I'm with Steven Pinker.

00:03:48.940 Fewer people get killed every year.

00:03:50.980 More people survive and don't die of starvation.

00:03:54.480 There's a genuine sense that mankind progresses.

00:03:57.960 I don't get hysterical about global warming.

00:04:00.300 I think it exists.

00:04:01.680 I'm not a denier.

00:04:03.120 But I suppose I'm a mild optimist in my general outcome of the world.

00:04:07.040 That's very interesting.

00:04:10.200 It's very rare to have a mild optimist in the chair, Simon.

00:04:14.480 And why are you a mild optimist?

00:04:17.280 What is there to be optimistic about at the moment, do you think?

00:04:20.660 Well, it does.

00:04:21.720 You read about the 14th century occasionally.

00:04:25.180 You know, people say, what year would you most like to have lived in?

00:04:29.460 I mean, I can choose a few.

00:04:31.320 And certainly 1492, I'd love to have been around then,

00:04:33.960 when they're discovering America and Christianity was triumphing in a brutal way. 0.96

00:04:39.360 I mean, everything was going on in 1492.

00:04:40.960 And then 1868, when they're building railways everywhere, a very exciting time.

00:04:45.700 There are periods like that.

00:04:47.440 But I just do think, statistically, and I believe in facts,

00:04:52.480 things do get better each year.

00:04:54.500 I mean, not everything gets better, for God's sake.

00:04:56.400 But things do get better each year.

00:04:58.060 And when something happens like Afghanistan, you think, hold on a minute.

00:05:01.880 You know, Afghanistan's had 20 years of sort of joy.

00:05:06.300 And now it's gone wrong.

00:05:09.340 Which is the normal?

00:05:11.140 I just don't know which is the normal.

00:05:13.240 I mean, much of the Muslim world is in a terrible state now. 1.00

00:05:16.920 Well, that's their business, not mine.

00:05:19.200 And at least I'm not bombing everyone still, as I was 10 years ago.

00:05:25.220 It's an interesting point.

00:05:26.500 I think I would disagree with you that things get better every year.

00:05:29.480 I mean, they get better every century.

00:05:31.540 But within that century, there's a lot of fluctuations.

00:05:33.840 And I would argue we're living through one.

00:05:35.640 But let's come back to your point about politicians.

00:05:38.660 Because I take your point.

00:05:40.540 And I'm sure as I get older, I will be the same.

00:05:43.740 But the BBC recently put out this drama, documentary, not drama,

00:05:48.360 with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

00:05:50.700 I don't know if you saw that.

00:05:52.560 I thought it was very good.

00:05:53.560 And actually what the BBC should be doing.

00:05:55.880 And I couldn't help watching that and think, look, I disagree with a lot of what Tony Blair did.

00:06:03.800 Iraq and, you know, mass immigration policy, et cetera.

00:06:06.600 But the caliber of people that were in that documentary seems to me to be completely off the charts

00:06:15.080 compared to the people that we have now, who've been media trained out of their brains,

00:06:19.100 who will never say anything that you can actually convert into actual coherent thought,

00:06:24.720 who are not people of, you know, significance or talent, in my opinion.

00:06:29.160 I don't know most of them.

00:06:30.560 And I'm interested in politics, very interested.

00:06:33.000 So is it not fair to say that the sort of caliber of politicians has declined?

00:06:38.240 I don't think so.

00:06:39.240 You don't think so?

00:06:40.180 I don't.

00:06:40.600 I mean, it is.

00:06:41.200 You don't think Keir Starmer versus Tony Blair, there's a big difference there.

00:06:45.540 It's a genuine generational fallacy that you've adumbrated, I think.

00:06:50.960 I mean, the famous parliament of 1918, when someone looked across the House of Commons,

00:06:58.040 all they could see were fat cats who'd done well out of the war,

00:07:00.900 was the famous phrase they produced, you know. 0.96

00:07:02.840 Everybody was corrupt.

00:07:04.060 Everybody was second rate.

00:07:06.220 And, yeah, they got us through the mid-war period.

00:07:09.540 They got us into the Second World War, I suppose.

00:07:11.020 But it was, you know, you've just got to try and put your perception of the present

00:07:15.840 in terms of the past, if that's the judgment you're making.

00:07:19.580 You can say, look, this lot are useless, and we've got the hell ahead of us, 0.82

00:07:23.300 and they're not up to it. 0.98

00:07:24.260 That's a different judgment.

00:07:25.280 But looking to the past and saying they're worse than the past,

00:07:29.080 I'm just reluctant to form those judgments.

00:07:32.100 But, Simon, come on.

00:07:32.880 You've got a leader of the Labour Party.

00:07:34.740 And, by the way, Boris Johnson's no better.

00:07:36.420 They don't know what a woman is anymore, right? 1.00

00:07:38.980 I mean, we didn't have those sort of people 20 years ago.

00:07:42.880 We just didn't.

00:07:44.040 You didn't know who what a woman was? 1.00

00:07:45.860 Yeah.

00:07:46.500 Keir Starmer was asked, do women have cervixes anymore?

00:07:49.440 That was his...

00:07:50.140 No, he was trapped by the present hysteria.

00:07:53.160 You're quite right.

00:07:53.920 I'm not going to argue with you there.

00:07:55.820 But, no, I think Keir Starmer is perfectly adequate

00:07:59.020 in comparison with most other politicians since the war.

00:08:01.260 I really do.

00:08:02.460 Boris Johnson's an eccentric. 0.61

00:08:03.960 He's a real oddball, let's put it that way.

00:08:07.260 Rishi Sunak is not.

00:08:08.640 Michael Gove is not.

00:08:10.020 These are people who could have served in a Thatcher government

00:08:12.700 or a Macmillan government or whatever it was.

00:08:15.260 I just don't leap to conclusions about people's character and personality

00:08:19.640 until they're put to the real test.

00:08:21.920 And let's face it, the last 18 months has been a real test.

00:08:25.380 I mean, I don't know where Blair would have been in that. 0.99

00:08:27.680 And Blair was a remarkable politician, let me say.

00:08:29.540 So, in a sense, comparing him to Starmer, he had charm.

00:08:34.100 Politicians who have charm have it all made for them,

00:08:36.440 as Boris Johnson has been showing in the past.

00:08:39.600 So, I mean, the qualities that make a great leader are very difficult to pin down.

00:08:44.560 I mean, someone like Alec Douglas Hume, he was a fantastically popular man.

00:08:48.420 He was a useless prime minister, but he was popular.

00:08:50.820 And he almost won an election. 0.97

00:08:52.100 I mean, it was extraordinary.

00:08:53.680 So, I'm just reluctant to rush to those sorts of conclusions.

00:08:56.160 I want to judge them by their outcome, by what happens.

00:08:59.080 We do tend to have a very weird relationship with the past, don't we?

00:09:03.240 Where we either romanticise it or want to tear down figures from it.

00:09:07.480 It seems to be a very binary approach to the past.

00:09:10.760 I think it's a fault of political conversation generally, the binary approach.

00:09:18.320 I don't know.

00:09:18.980 I mean, I was kind of brought up at school studying classics.

00:09:21.600 And my teacher has one obsession with Socrates.

00:09:25.440 And we spent our whole time studying bloody Socrates.

00:09:28.480 But the thing I learned from it was the dialectic method, the concept of polarisation.

00:09:33.900 What are you saying?

00:09:34.820 What are you saying?

00:09:36.180 Can we have an argument?

00:09:37.960 Don't pretend you agree.

00:09:39.160 Let's see if you disagree.

00:09:40.200 Let's fight it out.

00:09:41.560 And I passionately believe in debate.

00:09:43.020 That's why I believe that the media must be polarised in some sense,

00:09:46.960 with all the reservations you might have about that.

00:09:50.040 But, I mean, I just, I do think that the concept of there being differences,

00:09:57.140 the concept of there being different points of view,

00:09:59.040 is embedded in political conversation.

00:10:01.320 And if you smother it, even if you say, well, can't we find a compromise?

00:10:08.140 You're running a risk.

00:10:09.800 You're running a risk.

00:10:10.460 You come to the wrong conclusion in something.

00:10:12.360 But we don't seem to have debate as much anymore, do we?

00:10:15.240 Where people, and again, push back on this, it seems that we're more polarised than ever.

00:10:20.720 We're in our little silos.

00:10:22.580 And society seems to be that we don't want to talk to somebody who disagrees with us.

00:10:29.880 Is that me looking at society now and romanticising the past again?

00:10:36.220 Or is there a truth behind what I'm saying?

00:10:38.180 No, you're romanticising the past.

00:10:39.360 OK, great. Thanks.

00:10:40.180 I mean, I go back to, all right, hopeless.

00:10:44.380 People in my generation, we always, I go back to.

00:10:46.540 I go back to the 60s.

00:10:49.340 That's when I sort of had my political education.

00:10:51.720 And I go back to a time when every play in London was censored.

00:10:58.560 Gays were sent to prison. 1.00

00:11:01.540 Divorce was exceptionally difficult. 0.99

00:11:03.620 Abortion was banned.

00:11:05.600 I mean, I can't think of the list of activities that were, and the church was immensely powerful.

00:11:13.400 And no one challenged it.

00:11:15.880 I mean, you make the point, I mean, no one challenged it.

00:11:17.900 Somehow that was acceptable.

00:11:19.320 Let's not push, let's mess around the boat.

00:11:21.180 I mean, immigrants are all, I mean, it was, looking back, we sort of said, well, that's how we live.

00:11:28.220 And it's how people in Muslim countries now live.

00:11:30.740 So I'm familiar with that syndrome, but it existed in Britain.

00:11:34.680 I mean, the taboos that exist now have mostly gone, but they've mostly gone.

00:11:40.160 Taboos about...

00:11:40.580 We have new ones now.

00:11:42.180 You've got new ones.

00:11:44.460 They're to do with personal identity.

00:11:46.400 They're to do with race.

00:11:47.280 They're to do with, for some reason, drugs, which fascinate me.

00:11:50.900 But, I mean, there are taboos.

00:11:52.720 So you're absolutely right.

00:11:54.580 Paying for health is still a taboo.

00:11:57.960 In every other country, you pay and you get paid back if you do, but you pay.

00:12:01.160 So I just don't think it's that different.

00:12:04.400 I really don't.

00:12:05.660 And as you said, they're new taboos.

00:12:07.220 Well, that's what I mean.

00:12:08.460 I think what people like me feel is I admired people and watched comedians, for example,

00:12:16.360 who pushed back against that religious dogma.

00:12:18.760 And I thought that was important in order to liberate individuals from the oppressive

00:12:25.940 ideology of state-sanctioned religiosity or whatever that might be.

00:12:31.100 And having gone through that, I sort of thought, well, we've got somewhere.

00:12:34.980 We've made progress here.

00:12:36.440 But what I feel like has happened more recently is instead of stopping there, we've gone to

00:12:41.780 a new form of progress, which has now become a new religion that is imposing its own taboos 1.00

00:12:47.500 on society.

00:12:48.980 I think, I mean, I agree.

00:12:51.800 I mean, I find the whole concept of cultural wars odious and, you know, up to a point worrying.

00:12:58.400 If I thought that more than 17% of people agreed with them, I'd be more worried.

00:13:02.720 The question is, what's gone wrong with the other 87%? 1.00

00:13:06.400 And that's a different conversation.

00:13:09.000 But no, I mean, I think what I'm saying is I think we've pushed so many boundaries back

00:13:15.720 to what might call almost the liberal extreme.

00:13:18.260 It's almost inevitable there's a pushback on that.

00:13:21.300 Well, obviously, yeah.

00:13:21.940 And it's to be expected.

00:13:24.220 I mean, you know, in America now, where the education system appears to be trapped by a

00:13:29.900 sort of ethos, dogmatism, you know, they lose the election.

00:13:36.400 People won't put up with it.

00:13:37.260 No.

00:13:37.520 And I, because I just believe that most Western societies, lucky enough to be blessed with

00:13:44.420 the European liberal ethic, do have within them pushbacks.

00:13:48.740 You know, there's an American I used to see whenever I went over there to report or whatever

00:13:57.940 I was doing.

00:13:58.880 He was an elderly philosopher.

00:14:00.380 I can't even remember his name.

00:14:01.880 And he always said to me, whenever I was saying, how can you put up with this man, Nixon?

00:14:05.660 How can you tolerate Reagan? 1.00

00:14:07.840 I mean, what's going on?

00:14:09.060 He always said that the American constitution is not built the way yours is, with an ongoing

00:14:14.780 conversation within a civilized parliament.

00:14:17.240 We go right to the boundary.

00:14:19.400 We go to the edge of the cliff.

00:14:20.840 We're about to fall over the cliff.

00:14:23.080 And the elastic in the constitution pulls us back at the last minute.

00:14:26.840 And interestingly, I wish he'd been alive when Trump was around, because I'd like to say,

00:14:30.760 you almost went over the cliff.

00:14:33.560 But he would have said, but we pulled back.

00:14:36.760 Now, yeah.

00:14:38.080 Now, you pull back to Joe Biden.

00:14:39.620 I know.

00:14:39.820 There's quite some pullback in there.

00:14:41.160 Well, not just that, but I mean, if Trump comes back.

00:14:43.480 Right.

00:14:43.740 There's a very interesting article in The Statesman saying, I mean, what literally happens

00:14:47.520 if Trump comes back?

00:14:48.440 What literally happens if he wins?

00:14:50.520 I mean, this is going to be the ultimate test for the American constitution.

00:14:54.300 And I do believe I can see that as a plausible scenario.

00:14:58.300 I can't quite believe it's going to happen.

00:14:59.700 But there we are.

00:15:00.260 But is Johnson going to stay there 10 years?

00:15:05.360 Then what?

00:15:05.740 Dear God.

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00:16:07.100 See you there, guys.

00:16:08.100 Looking at Trump and looking at Johnson absolutely decimating the opposition, and being a person

00:16:16.560 of the left, as I am, do you not think, Simon, that the left needs to take responsibility for

00:16:22.020 these victories and actually say that they're not appealing to the ordinary working person?

00:16:28.100 They're not making that connection?

00:16:29.820 Well, hold on.

00:16:31.040 I mean, the left, or chunk of the left, critical chunk of the left, deserted Labour, voted for

00:16:37.340 Johnson.

00:16:38.780 Now, those same people appear from the polls to be revolting against him, because they

00:16:43.320 didn't like much in his form of government.

00:16:46.360 That's the system hitting back.

00:16:48.920 I do think the British Constitution has this ability to bite back, and I like it.

00:16:55.400 That sort of works.

00:16:58.320 By the same token, I was desperately disappointed during the Brexit argument, without getting

00:17:03.640 involved in the actual argument itself.

00:17:05.460 But it was clear that Parliament was very upset by not just Brexit, but hard Brexit, by

00:17:10.720 the approach the government was taking, intransigent hostility, all these things were bred into

00:17:16.120 it, and Parliament had an opportunity, when May was in real trouble, to seize control of

00:17:24.300 the executive from the government, and say, we want these following things to be done.

00:17:30.260 And the Labour Party then, and the Liberal Democrats, and the Scott Nats, the various opposition

00:17:35.400 parties in Parliament, could have got together and never did.

00:17:39.500 And I remember thinking, I thought that was the death of Parliament.

00:17:42.660 Parliament is now just an electoral college and nothing else.

00:17:45.120 When offered the chance to take a lead, he couldn't do it.

00:17:49.820 And quite a few senior Labour figures I know thought, do we seize control in some sense?

00:17:57.300 And just couldn't find it in them to do so, party discipline being what it was.

00:18:04.660 So, you know, we do go near the edge occasionally, and we sometimes fail.

00:18:10.120 Fail, and I think in that case it failed.

00:18:12.800 I don't think Johnson's victory was all that surprising.

00:18:15.920 I don't actually think it's a catastrophe.

00:18:17.580 I think he's a very odd man.

00:18:20.120 I know a bit, he's a very odd man.

00:18:23.540 And my wife was at university with him and knew much better.

00:18:27.700 But no, I mean, politics is fascinating.

00:18:32.480 It's always changing.

00:18:33.260 It's always different.

00:18:34.360 And I'm just not a catastrophist.

00:18:37.260 And do you think the left is going to actually capitalise now on Johnson's fallibilities,

00:18:45.060 the Sleaze scandals that are hitting the Conservative Party?

00:18:49.060 Do you think they're actually going to be able to make inroads into that,

00:18:52.360 into the Red Wall, as it were, and reclaim those heartlands?

00:18:55.000 I haven't the foggiest notion.

00:18:56.700 Okay.

00:18:57.400 I think, I think, I think, I think the answer is probably yes.

00:19:02.060 Really?

00:19:02.500 I don't think Starmer's finished.

00:19:03.900 I think he's, I think he'd be regarded as a decent man, an honest man.

00:19:08.500 He's got a long, a lot to learn.

00:19:10.800 I mean, don't try and play Johnson's game.

00:19:12.520 I was just still aloof from Johnson and just appeared to be a respectable potential leader.

00:19:17.780 He's got a big problem with talent.

00:19:20.460 The Labour Party is not getting good people into Parliament.

00:19:23.460 The Liberal Democrats, to me, are the Tory party in disguise. 1.00

00:19:29.180 I mean, they're the Tory party's useful idiots. 1.00

00:19:31.880 They're always sitting there, taking votes away from Labour just at the crucial moment 1.00

00:19:35.880 when Labour most needs leftist centre support.

00:19:39.140 And the Liberal Party are Tories in the sense that they do not want Labour to win.

00:19:46.140 Because if they wound up or did deals and seats with Labour, never to contest a potential Labour

00:19:51.140 victory, Labour Party would win, as with, as with Scotland.

00:19:56.500 Scotland, I'm doing a book about the Celts at the moment.

00:20:00.580 And it's just phenomenal to me that the Scots haven't gotten to bed with Labour or Labour

00:20:05.380 with the Scots.

00:20:06.660 Because that's, you know, that's 50 seats.

00:20:08.320 It's completely crazy.

00:20:11.680 You genuinely think the Labour Party, as it is now, obsessed with identity politics,

00:20:18.940 unable to speak to ordinary people about the things that actually matter to them,

00:20:22.460 economic inequality, housing, all of this.

00:20:25.380 They don't talk about it.

00:20:26.280 They talk about all this other sort of metropolitan, liberal stuff that we love to talk about here

00:20:31.400 in London.

00:20:32.320 You think they're going to make a comeback?

00:20:34.580 Well, yes, I do, because they always have.

00:20:38.400 I mean, in the early 1980s, in this country, the Labour Party was completely finished.

00:20:42.580 Yes.

00:20:43.420 I mean, in the late 50s, it was finished.

00:20:45.880 Mark Abrams wrote a book called Why Must Labour Always Lose?

00:20:48.660 I mean, these books have been written for 50 years.

00:20:50.940 Right.

00:20:52.140 Everybody starts new parties on the right and on the left.

00:20:55.220 And Nigel Farah is still mucking around with some party called UKIP or whatever.

00:20:59.700 The SDP is trying to re-found itself.

00:21:01.980 Liberal Democrats refuse to shut up.

00:21:05.280 And yet, the Labour Party does come back.

00:21:08.380 Now, it does need a Blair. 1.00

00:21:11.840 Well, that's my point.

00:21:12.740 It needs someone who can talk the language of not the extremes,

00:21:17.780 be those extremes, those of industrialised Labour or of identity politics.

00:21:24.040 I'm assuming that Keir Starmer at some stage or in some sense can capture that particular initiative.

00:21:32.400 You don't do it with an hour and a half speech at your party conference, that's for sure.

00:21:36.520 But the system has built into it the reaction, the reaction to superiority.

00:21:44.920 So, I'm just assuming that will happen.

00:21:47.720 I may be completely wrong, but it's always happened before.

00:21:50.360 So, your argument is not so much that you see in the current Labour Party the seeds of recovery,

00:21:55.720 but rather that, historically, this is what always happens.

00:21:58.980 Parties go through downfalls, they lose a lot, and people get fed up of losing,

00:22:03.480 and then a Blair comes along.

00:22:04.980 Francis and I had an argument about this the other day on camera,

00:22:08.040 and it's very much what I was saying, actually.

00:22:10.920 So, I'm challenging from a devil's advocate point of view, more or less.

00:22:14.780 But it strikes me that, I mean, I'm not saying this to flatter you,

00:22:19.640 but you do seem to have very sensible views about a lot of these issues,

00:22:23.840 the culture war issues particularly.

00:22:25.780 I was told I'd never be on television.

00:22:27.640 Well, that's why.

00:22:29.160 Because they can't.

00:22:30.660 So, we don't know where you're coming from.

00:22:32.220 I was like, well, I'm coming from here, you know.

00:22:34.360 Well, quite.

00:22:34.860 I'm sorry about being sensible.

00:22:35.900 Go on, anyway.

00:22:36.440 And that's what we tried to do on the show, much the same as you.

00:22:40.100 So, forgive me for this question, but I have to ask you,

00:22:43.100 you work at The Guardian.

00:22:44.720 How do you manage to do that?

00:22:47.240 Well, The Guardian publishes what I write.

00:22:50.280 They pay me to write it, and they publish it.

00:22:52.000 I've got no problem.

00:22:52.980 Yeah.

00:22:53.180 But next to that is an article about how skyscrapers are signs

00:22:56.960 of toxic masculinity spewing male whatever into the atmosphere.

00:23:01.940 Actually, I'd rather agree with that point.

00:23:03.820 I get along with that one, for sure.

00:23:07.660 I hate skyscrapers.

00:23:09.380 I like little Georgian houses.

00:23:11.880 Yeah, that's fine.

00:23:12.780 I'm not sure there's signs of toxic masculinity spewing male whatever

00:23:17.540 into the atmosphere.

00:23:18.440 I did once write an article that said exactly that,

00:23:22.060 with all their pro-epic politicians with erectile dysfunction or something. 0.67

00:23:28.300 I mean, they are a feature of male planning in some cure.

00:23:33.120 Or architects, not planning.

00:23:34.160 Architects.

00:23:34.960 Planning is a different matter.

00:23:36.420 No, I mean, be that as it may.

00:23:38.020 No, I mean, The Dear Old Guardian is fine.

00:23:39.740 I mean, The Guardian needs to be there.

00:23:41.220 I'm proud of a country that publishes The Guardian

00:23:43.880 and that that paper is now second or third most widely read quality paper on earth.

00:23:49.560 And that's thanks to online.

00:23:53.300 I've got no problem with it at all.

00:23:55.500 It's not monotheistic or monolingual.

00:24:00.080 It has many points of view reflected in its pages.

00:24:03.240 It's broadly speaking left of centre.

00:24:04.600 That's true.

00:24:05.080 I wouldn't say I'm broadly speaking left of centre because I cannot place myself anywhere on the spectrum.

00:24:10.700 On almost every issue I find I'm on the opposite position which someone else I thought I agreed with is on.

00:24:17.020 But, no, I mean, there was a time, I remember it well.

00:24:21.760 I read a book about the press ownership back in the late 70s, I think,

00:24:28.100 in which of the seven British newspapers,

00:24:30.280 The first thing about newspapers I may say is when I entered newspapers, 0.96

00:24:33.600 everyone thought, you're mad.

00:24:35.400 The future is broadcasting.

00:24:37.280 As they now say, the future is podcasting and so on.

00:24:40.100 Newspapers are dead.

00:24:41.260 They're made of dead trees, with dead ink.

00:24:44.380 They're dying people.

00:24:45.440 They're finished.

00:24:46.760 There were seven newspapers, daily newspapers in Britain then.

00:24:49.680 There was room for two or three, we were told,

00:24:52.000 by, you know, pundits in the industry.

00:24:54.260 There are eight today.

00:24:56.780 They have a longevity that defies everything.

00:24:59.100 But there was a time then when the only papers of the left

00:25:04.100 were the Daily Herald, the Guardian and the Daily Mirror.

00:25:11.320 Daily Mirror was up for sale.

00:25:13.660 Daily Herald had gone bankrupt and bought by Murdoch or became the Sun.

00:25:18.780 And the Guardian was stuck in Manchester.

00:25:21.120 If the Daily Mirror had gone to a right-wing owner,

00:25:24.540 they would not have been a liberal voice or a left-wing voice in British press.

00:25:29.420 I really thought at that point the government had to act.

00:25:32.640 Now, the system, for no reason to do with public policy at all,

00:25:37.220 the system has nonetheless delivered a diversity of opinion throughout my life.

00:25:42.260 My whole life is extraordinary.

00:25:44.400 And the Daryl BBC keeps it going against all knocks to its pride and so on. 0.92

00:25:50.100 And it behaves idiotically and yet it's still there and yet it's still diverse. 1.00

00:25:54.200 And we're terribly lucky in this country. 1.00

00:25:56.020 My son is in California.

00:25:59.020 He just, I mean, hardly bear, you know.

00:26:02.720 He gets the BBC online in all sorts of ways.

00:26:05.700 But the American press, when I go to America, I feel quite frightened.

00:26:08.860 But I guess the reason I was asking about how you feel at the Guardian is I think,

00:26:14.720 look, I don't want you to, you know, be throwing your colleagues under the bus at all.

00:26:18.200 It's not what I'm trying to do.

00:26:19.200 But it has changed.

00:26:20.860 They throw me quicker than that.

00:26:24.900 It has changed.

00:26:26.960 Hasn't it?

00:26:27.580 Oh, yes, it has.

00:26:28.640 I mean, all papers do change.

00:26:30.500 No, it has changed.

00:26:31.300 I mean...

00:26:31.500 Okay, let me rephrase.

00:26:32.460 It's changed in the direction that I personally think is wrong.

00:26:35.500 Well, you disagree with it.

00:26:37.860 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:26:39.140 I, like you, think it's very important that the Guardian exist.

00:26:42.020 I just think it ought to do sensible articles of the centre-left,

00:26:46.740 which I happily read and enjoy and sometimes agree with. 0.94

00:26:50.220 All of this moronic culture war stuff, I think, is very off-putting.

00:26:53.940 And it undermines the reputation of the paper as a whole, for me. 0.93

00:26:59.380 Well, I'm sorry you feel that.

00:27:02.880 There we are.

00:27:03.540 I mean, what I just do think is very important for there to be a public voice

00:27:08.580 for all points of view, even in a polarised political environment.

00:27:12.460 I really think that.

00:27:13.760 I mean, the Guardian used to be the Manchester Guardian.

00:27:15.740 It was a liberal paper.

00:27:16.640 It was not a Labour paper.

00:27:18.640 And I remember it as being almost intolerably compromising on every issue.

00:27:23.260 It's not that anymore.

00:27:24.320 You're quite right.

00:27:24.800 It's a champion, a banner waver for the left of the political spectrum.

00:27:31.440 It is not of one voice any more than the left of the political spectrum is of one voice,

00:27:35.240 to put it mildly.

00:27:36.920 And I think the Guardian does struggle to represent all points of view

00:27:40.500 within what might be called the broad left of the spectrum.

00:27:43.180 And a number of articles there drive me up the wall.

00:27:47.680 They drive lots of people up the wall.

00:27:48.960 I'm not surprised.

00:27:49.600 They probably drive you up the wall.

00:27:50.600 But I'm glad they're there.

00:27:52.160 And I do think that the most important thing is the guardianship of diversity in the press

00:27:58.520 and in the media.

00:27:59.660 And if the Guardian wasn't there, there would be a very severe lack of diversity.

00:28:02.940 And I feel that quite strongly.

00:28:03.820 You mean diversity of thought?

00:28:04.860 Yes.

00:28:05.080 We often use the terms diversity, but they tend to mean different things now, don't they?

00:28:12.720 We don't tend to talk as much about diversity of thought.

00:28:15.860 And I'm really glad you brought that up.

00:28:17.320 Why do you think that is, Simon?

00:28:19.080 Well, the word diversity has been hijacked by identity politics.

00:28:22.620 And that says so much at the moment.

00:28:26.060 We could discuss whether I'm equanimous about that as I am about other things,

00:28:31.580 because I think there are dangers in that.

00:28:33.080 But, I mean, I've always used the word diversity of the press

00:28:36.720 as representing diversity across the left-right spectrum.

00:28:40.480 That spectrum is now corrupted to such a degree

00:28:44.380 that it's often difficult to define what it really means.

00:28:47.680 But I just want different points of view expressed, is what I'm really saying.

00:28:51.940 We were having a conversation before the camera started rolling about Margaret Thatcher.

00:28:56.700 And in this country, even though she died a few years ago,

00:29:00.340 she still is a fantastically divisive figure.

00:29:04.560 And you are actually saying that there were certain qualities of hers

00:29:07.740 and things that she did that you found quite admirable.

00:29:10.660 And I'll be honest with you, coming from a Guardian journalist,

00:29:14.560 I found that quite shocking.

00:29:16.880 What is it about Maggie that you thought was good and necessary at the time?

00:29:22.360 Well, she made decisions and approached issues of the day

00:29:28.680 in a way that had not been confronted for the previous 10, 20 years

00:29:34.220 and needed confronting.

00:29:36.040 And no one had the guts to do it.

00:29:38.120 She did it often crudely. 0.60

00:29:41.040 She did it often haphazardly.

00:29:43.720 And she did it with a lack of sympathy and charm,

00:29:47.220 which caused her great damage.

00:29:48.660 No question about that.

00:29:50.180 But, I mean, it's a bit like the interwar years.

00:29:53.640 I mean, you've got to go back to the 1970s.

00:29:56.520 1970 to 1976, 789, you really thought Britain was finished.

00:30:02.300 You actually thought, I mean, quite apart from winters of discontent

00:30:05.480 and rubbish piling in the streets and so on,

00:30:07.400 which was quite sort of toxic to the political life of the country.

00:30:10.840 Every other country thought we were dead.

00:30:13.940 The British disease was, I mean, 0.98

00:30:16.520 the British disease must not infect Europe as an obsession.

00:30:19.760 We were members of the European community and people said,

00:30:21.520 how can we stop the British disease infecting Europe? 0.99

00:30:23.760 And that disease was over powerful trade unions, 0.66

00:30:27.360 monopolies, state monopolies.

00:30:31.120 State owned half what now is the private sector.

00:30:34.100 It was extraordinary.

00:30:35.340 And no one in the Callaghan-Wilson governments then

00:30:38.280 had the guts to confront it.

00:30:39.760 Ted Heath did for two years and then perfuncted

00:30:42.160 and did this great U-turn.

00:30:44.680 Politics in the 70s was Britain at its most desperate.

00:30:48.500 And in the 1979, the 1980 party conference season,

00:30:53.900 I remember well, everybody said Mrs. Thatcher's finished.

00:30:57.080 She'd been so unpopular.

00:30:59.220 I mean, no one's going to vote for Mrs. Thatcher.

00:31:00.880 And I remember I was in the political lobby then.

00:31:04.140 Everyone was taking bets on this.

00:31:05.480 And I just, I'm like I am now.

00:31:08.220 I said, she's fine.

00:31:09.640 She'll, you know, she'll come around.

00:31:11.580 She won't be gone by Christmas.

00:31:13.860 I remember sort of five or six senior political editors

00:31:15.900 betting me, you know, ten quid.

00:31:17.840 She'll be gone by Christmas.

00:31:19.080 I collected from half of them.

00:31:22.000 Political editors never pay up.

00:31:23.520 But the fact is, by the late 80s, Britain was on a roll.

00:31:34.400 And it was on a roll largely because of things done by Mrs. Thatcher

00:31:37.960 or her government.

00:31:38.980 And it was the star of Europe.

00:31:43.280 Now, that transformation took place under that woman.

00:31:47.680 And I, as a fact, by the 90s, you know,

00:31:52.300 we were actually creaming ahead.

00:31:54.580 But that was almost inconceivable in the 70s.

00:31:58.740 And so why is that being the case?

00:32:01.320 Why is that, why is she so divisive then?

00:32:04.720 Why does she instil such rage and anger, even now,

00:32:09.420 30 years after her government?

00:32:11.080 I think we're sitting in the east end of London saying that.

00:32:14.020 I mean, I'm not quite sure people feel quite that strongly

00:32:16.220 about it elsewhere.

00:32:18.820 They do in Scotland, where I lived for many years.

00:32:20.940 They do in some parts of the north, some people.

00:32:23.240 Okay, well, the reason is that she traumatised them.

00:32:27.800 No question about it.

00:32:28.460 She traumatised them.

00:32:30.000 I mean, mining, which is a great sort of cultural

00:32:33.700 sweep of England was mining.

00:32:36.540 She ended it.

00:32:37.840 Steel collapsed onto her. 0.98

00:32:39.380 British cars were useless. 0.99

00:32:41.020 She said so. 0.98

00:32:43.520 She privatised great swathes of industry,

00:32:46.280 which would heavily protect shipbuilding by the state.

00:32:49.700 All those interest groups suffered.

00:32:52.940 And, you know, at the same time,

00:32:56.340 she was not showing any great charm or sympathy

00:32:58.980 with the NHS or for those things.

00:33:00.760 No, she was unpopular.

00:33:01.900 No question about that.

00:33:03.700 And on top of that, God, has anyone interviewed her knew?

00:33:08.140 She had no personal sympathy with these people.

00:33:11.760 The famous stories about her going off to work in the morning

00:33:14.880 and the children would wave at her from the upstairs room

00:33:17.640 and she'd never turn back,

00:33:18.720 whereas her husband turned back and waved.

00:33:20.580 I mean, she was a difficult person.

00:33:23.780 And I just think that, you know,

00:33:25.940 one has to set these things to one side.

00:33:28.620 I mean, one's criticising Boris Johnson for being Boris Johnson.

00:33:31.960 People criticised Mrs. Thatcher for being Mrs. Thatcher. 0.99

00:33:34.940 You've got a certain point in the argument to set this to one side,

00:33:38.460 saying, are they doing the right thing?

00:33:40.280 And I think on the whole, she did the right thing.

00:33:43.140 A necessary thing, not the right thing.

00:33:44.940 And it's curious as you're talking, it makes me think.

00:33:48.420 And, you know, I said when Keir Starmer became leader of the Labour Party,

00:33:51.660 I said he needs to pick a fight with the extremists in his own party,

00:33:55.500 get them out and do the right thing.

00:33:57.620 He hasn't done that, in my opinion.

00:33:58.980 But do you think it's an inevitable part of strong and good political leadership

00:34:05.200 that you're going to do things that work for the country

00:34:10.580 but maybe really don't work for some people

00:34:13.580 and that's the price you have to pay if you're actually going to get things done?

00:34:17.440 Well, clearly the answer is yes.

00:34:20.760 And I think, I mean, Blair's most impressive period

00:34:23.980 was the two years before he became Prime Minister.

00:34:25.920 Absolutely.

00:34:26.300 And I remember interviewing him then

00:34:28.080 and I think this is, I mean, he took on the party constitution,

00:34:32.600 he took on the national executive,

00:34:34.120 he confronted all these pressure groups within his own party.

00:34:38.820 I talked to him about electoral mayors, elected mayors,

00:34:43.160 and the great sales pitch for elected mayors for Tony Blair was

00:34:46.400 they might smash local Labour parties.

00:34:49.680 That's what he saw as the opportunity.

00:34:52.260 He told me to my face.

00:34:53.960 So you're right.

00:34:55.900 He understood, and he had a group around him who understood

00:34:58.680 and could work with it,

00:35:00.000 that he had to transform the Labour Party.

00:35:02.500 Now, I think it's more difficult at the moment

00:35:03.960 because I don't think the Labour Party is institutionally

00:35:06.200 anything like Blair was handling.

00:35:10.940 Its problem is he's got a lot of rather weak leaders

00:35:13.580 who talk the wrong language at the moment

00:35:15.540 because of the nature of the groups within the Labour Party

00:35:19.080 who support them.

00:35:20.820 I do think the red wall thing is significant.

00:35:23.280 I mean, I do think that the Labour Party is going to realise

00:35:26.740 he's got to win these people back,

00:35:28.060 and it will not win them back with identity politics.

00:35:31.460 It just won't.

00:35:32.080 It's not the way to do it.

00:35:33.580 What's wrong with identity politics, Simon?

00:35:35.420 I think it's really damaging.

00:35:36.500 I think identity politics is the...

00:35:39.500 I mean, the essence of democracy to me is one man, one woman,

00:35:42.300 one vote, one person, one vote.

00:35:44.660 And the differences that arise within a well-organised democracy

00:35:52.440 are differences of opinion on policy.

00:35:55.040 How do we want our country to be run?

00:35:56.800 How do we want to live?

00:35:58.640 How do we want to treat people?

00:36:01.540 Can we bring ourselves...

00:36:03.180 Given the fact that not everyone's the same,

00:36:05.440 but we're treating them as the same for democratic purposes,

00:36:08.920 they've got one vote,

00:36:10.200 we have to pretend, in a sense, that we are all equal.

00:36:14.600 If you start saying,

00:36:16.340 I regard you as privileged and myself as underprivileged,

00:36:20.680 so I want positive discrimination in my favour,

00:36:23.020 or I want to organise my politics around my group,

00:36:26.020 not what we think,

00:36:27.900 I just think you undermine democracy.

00:36:30.320 I really do.

00:36:31.540 And I think if you move down the route

00:36:34.140 of people voting as groups,

00:36:36.800 this is what happens in Iraq,

00:36:38.780 you vote with your family or group,

00:36:41.860 whatever it might be.

00:36:42.640 You do not vote for anything other than that,

00:36:44.580 and your interest there is your interest.

00:36:46.920 You're voting for your pocketbook or your job

00:36:48.800 or whatever it is you're going to be able to grip.

00:36:51.260 And the idea of equality of opportunity,

00:36:53.520 of equality of treatment,

00:36:55.480 or equality of approach,

00:36:57.320 it goes out of the window

00:36:58.800 if you go too far down that particular route.

00:37:03.020 One of the problems has certainly been

00:37:04.920 that certain groups in British society historically,

00:37:09.320 the poor, the Celts, immigrants,

00:37:12.800 wherever it might be,

00:37:13.780 have not been treated equally.

00:37:15.660 And now they've found a way

00:37:17.780 of mobilising that sense of discrimination

00:37:20.640 or sense of failure

00:37:21.760 to their advantage.

00:37:24.400 And a large chunk of the community

00:37:26.580 feels guilty

00:37:27.540 in responding to that.

00:37:29.800 And it's that guilt that leads them

00:37:31.300 to either make wrong decisions

00:37:33.400 or not to get in the way of people

00:37:35.400 who are making wrong decisions,

00:37:36.600 which is the ultimate danger in democracy.

00:37:39.980 It's not enough for evil to triumph,

00:37:43.120 just for good people to stay silent.

00:37:45.260 I mean, if you stay silent

00:37:47.020 in the face of some of these things

00:37:49.280 that are happening,

00:37:50.040 then they will go on happening.

00:37:52.020 And it's mobilising the silent majority,

00:37:54.060 which has always been the great

00:37:54.940 sort of cliché of democracy.

00:37:57.360 It's mobilising the silent majority

00:37:59.380 that holds the way out of this.

00:38:02.280 And I think we will get out of it.

00:38:03.980 It's a sort of temporary hysteria,

00:38:07.000 but it's certainly very vivid

00:38:08.800 if you're a victim of it.

00:38:10.660 And do you think that's

00:38:12.240 a controversial opinion to have

00:38:13.720 if you're a member of the Labour Party

00:38:15.260 on the left,

00:38:15.960 this critique of identity politics?

00:38:18.560 I don't think so.

00:38:19.280 I mean, because everyone talks about it

00:38:21.440 all the time.

00:38:23.300 Would you write something like this

00:38:24.480 in The Guardian?

00:38:25.160 Oh, yeah.

00:38:26.820 I look forward to it.

00:38:28.580 Well, I mean,

00:38:29.380 I've never felt I can't

00:38:32.800 write it in The Guardian.

00:38:34.840 I mean, they write twice a week

00:38:37.020 or they put it online.

00:38:38.720 No, I mean,

00:38:40.280 it's partly the way you express it.

00:38:43.760 I mean, I do think that,

00:38:46.800 I mean, I spent a year

00:38:48.300 at Sussex University,

00:38:50.000 you know,

00:38:50.300 and I've decided to disassociate myself

00:38:52.340 completely from it

00:38:53.260 because of what they did down there.

00:38:55.260 I thought it was just outrageous.

00:38:56.020 Kathleen Stoltz,

00:38:56.840 while she was in this chair yesterday.

00:38:58.080 Oh, really?

00:38:58.640 Yeah.

00:38:59.760 I'm thinking of returning

00:39:01.340 my honorary degree.

00:39:03.660 But, I mean,

00:39:05.760 A, I don't think we can,

00:39:08.080 you can't continue like this.

00:39:10.000 I mean, you can see

00:39:10.600 what's happened in America.

00:39:11.520 America has this wonderful,

00:39:13.000 I mean, you know,

00:39:13.720 America goes right to the extreme

00:39:16.040 and then Virginia votes out.

00:39:18.600 The Democrat votes,

00:39:19.880 would rather have Trump 1.00

00:39:20.820 than this rubbish 1.00

00:39:21.520 you're teaching us. 0.99

00:39:22.460 You know, California

00:39:24.860 sane on drugs.

00:39:28.580 You know,

00:39:28.800 America is both 1.00

00:39:30.740 the most retarded country 1.00

00:39:31.960 and also the most advanced 0.55

00:39:33.020 and it's fascinating

00:39:33.840 for that reason.

00:39:35.900 I don't know

00:39:36.560 how it's going to act out.

00:39:38.080 But all I just do know

00:39:39.220 is that,

00:39:40.340 I'm sure you have them

00:39:41.260 in this chair,

00:39:42.040 I mean,

00:39:43.120 thousands of people,

00:39:43.920 if not millions of people

00:39:44.860 don't go along with it.

00:39:46.600 And,

00:39:46.880 and almost all the people

00:39:48.340 I talk to agree with me

00:39:49.660 and you on the subject.

00:39:50.740 So I just,

00:39:52.320 I just think

00:39:52.720 we'll get over it.

00:39:55.680 I wish I could.

00:39:58.140 Simon,

00:39:58.800 I wish.

00:40:00.760 Francis is having

00:40:01.700 a meltdown here

00:40:02.580 because,

00:40:03.120 because for one,

00:40:03.840 someone is being positive

00:40:04.900 about the future

00:40:05.680 and he can't handle it.

00:40:07.060 Go on, mate, go on.

00:40:07.880 Tell, 0.94

00:40:08.160 tell us about how depressed

00:40:09.100 you are, go on.

00:40:10.160 It's what the people

00:40:10.760 want to hear.

00:40:11.280 It's what they,

00:40:11.640 it's what they come for

00:40:12.540 with trigonometry

00:40:13.240 and Francis Foster.

00:40:14.140 Go on, mate.

00:40:15.620 I'm a rabid pessimist,

00:40:17.640 Simon.

00:40:18.260 And look,

00:40:18.840 there's a part of me,

00:40:19.500 I'm like all pessimists.

00:40:21.260 I enjoy my pessimism.

00:40:23.020 I enjoy it.

00:40:23.680 I revel in it.

00:40:24.840 I roll around in it

00:40:26.120 every day.

00:40:26.900 I wear it.

00:40:27.900 But,

00:40:30.780 I,

00:40:31.140 my problem,

00:40:32.320 and joking aside,

00:40:33.340 is I don't see a way out.

00:40:35.600 And when I don't see

00:40:36.920 a way out of a problem,

00:40:38.420 that's when

00:40:39.220 the panic starts to arise.

00:40:41.820 And I look

00:40:42.920 at the Labour Party

00:40:44.180 and I look at the figures.

00:40:45.640 I don't see someone

00:40:48.000 with conviction.

00:40:49.260 I don't see someone

00:40:50.320 with passion.

00:40:51.320 I don't see someone

00:40:52.200 who can galvanise.

00:40:53.320 I don't see anyone

00:40:54.080 who can challenge.

00:40:55.660 If I'm going to be blunt,

00:40:57.140 I don't think I see

00:40:58.000 many people

00:40:58.540 with a backbone.

00:40:59.400 And that's what worries me.

00:41:00.520 Even if they disagreed with me,

00:41:02.060 if they had a backbone

00:41:03.020 and go,

00:41:03.400 no,

00:41:03.920 this is what I think,

00:41:05.540 I'd be far more likely

00:41:06.760 to vote for that person.

00:41:09.020 Well,

00:41:09.480 I saw the list.

00:41:11.260 You've had plenty of people

00:41:11.900 in this chair

00:41:12.460 who say that

00:41:14.220 or who got backbone,

00:41:16.560 I think.

00:41:17.800 And I mean,

00:41:18.280 many of them are friends of mine

00:41:19.540 and, you know,

00:41:20.180 I admire their outspokenness.

00:41:23.300 But, I mean,

00:41:23.800 you're asking me

00:41:24.200 very specific questions

00:41:25.080 about the past

00:41:25.760 and the relationship

00:41:26.200 between the past

00:41:26.760 and the present.

00:41:27.620 And I try to set the present

00:41:28.980 in the context of the past

00:41:30.100 because, as the cliche goes,

00:41:31.260 you won't know the future

00:41:32.020 if you don't.

00:41:32.940 So,

00:41:33.400 we have an obligation.

00:41:35.260 People of intelligence

00:41:36.320 or whatever

00:41:36.640 have an obligation

00:41:37.520 to look to the past

00:41:38.340 to learn from it.

00:41:40.680 And,

00:41:40.720 things happen in Britain

00:41:43.680 always

00:41:44.420 which have distressed me

00:41:45.740 no end

00:41:46.180 and there are things

00:41:46.980 happening now

00:41:47.700 which distress me.

00:41:49.080 When I see

00:41:50.620 people behaving

00:41:52.640 towards other people

00:41:53.560 in a way

00:41:54.240 that used to happen

00:41:55.360 in totalitarian countries,

00:41:58.000 I mean,

00:41:59.080 some people,

00:42:00.540 some people,

00:42:00.960 not many people today,

00:42:02.040 treat other people

00:42:02.920 they disagree with

00:42:03.800 much as

00:42:04.880 the pre-Reformation church

00:42:06.980 treated heretics.

00:42:09.980 And I think to myself,

00:42:11.700 gosh,

00:42:12.040 if these people were there

00:42:12.880 then they'd be doing 0.98

00:42:13.700 the burning of the stake.

00:42:15.240 And I just think,

00:42:16.900 are they aware of that?

00:42:18.020 I mean,

00:42:18.260 I'm a member of my family,

00:42:20.100 I may say,

00:42:20.600 a young,

00:42:21.260 radical,

00:42:24.760 recently student

00:42:25.560 who says,

00:42:27.020 you'll not get there,

00:42:27.920 they're always in television,

00:42:29.080 they're always there,

00:42:29.560 you've got your way,

00:42:30.520 your voice out,

00:42:31.460 so let us have a go.

00:42:32.460 I mean,

00:42:32.700 we have this sort of

00:42:33.860 unconstructive conversation.

00:42:36.880 But I mean,

00:42:38.320 I sort of take a point.

00:42:40.600 I mean,

00:42:40.780 if I genuinely thought

00:42:42.000 that the right-wing press

00:42:43.600 is being shut down

00:42:44.440 by the cultural warriors,

00:42:45.680 then I would worry.

00:42:47.140 There's not the slightest

00:42:47.820 sign of that happening.

00:42:49.440 There's not the slightest

00:42:50.260 sign of their critics

00:42:51.680 not appearing on the BBC,

00:42:53.400 not appearing on your show

00:42:54.620 and so on.

00:42:55.400 So I just don't think

00:42:56.720 things are as catastrophic

00:42:57.700 as they're implying.

00:42:59.480 And if you're asking me,

00:43:01.560 could I please give you

00:43:02.240 the roadmap out,

00:43:03.260 then that's much more difficult,

00:43:04.280 I grant you.

00:43:04.960 Okay.

00:43:05.520 So let me help France,

00:43:07.840 it's unusual of me

00:43:08.580 because I try to be

00:43:09.280 the positive one.

00:43:10.120 But you talk about

00:43:12.020 rewriting of history,

00:43:13.020 for example.

00:43:13.740 I mean,

00:43:14.120 what happened last year to me,

00:43:15.840 and I'm from Russia,

00:43:18.100 I'm from a Jewish background, 0.90

00:43:19.840 so all this white guilt nonsense 0.76

00:43:21.380 doesn't apply to me. 0.62

00:43:22.340 I just,

00:43:22.740 it's nothing to do with me.

00:43:24.140 My ancestors didn't enslave anyone.

00:43:25.840 My ancestors were slaves,

00:43:27.040 right?

00:43:27.240 So I don't buy into 0.99

00:43:28.720 any of this crap. 0.99

00:43:29.680 To me, 0.99

00:43:30.060 what happened in this country

00:43:31.020 last year,

00:43:31.580 when you had police officers

00:43:33.340 being told don't shoot

00:43:35.020 when they don't carry firearms,

00:43:36.880 kneeling to an organisation

00:43:38.160 that wants to defund them,

00:43:39.640 and the entirety of the media class,

00:43:41.740 the entirety of the political class,

00:43:44.160 all virtually bowing their head,

00:43:46.980 bowing, bending the knee,

00:43:48.060 whatever you want to say, 1.00

00:43:49.240 to this absolute garbage 1.00

00:43:51.000 that's come over from America. 0.99

00:43:52.600 It's got nothing to do

00:43:53.400 with the history of Britain,

00:43:54.620 right? 0.90

00:43:54.760 We don't have black people 1.00

00:43:55.860 being shot by police 0.98

00:43:56.820 in this country.

00:43:57.780 This absurdity.

00:43:59.060 And yet very,

00:43:59.960 very few people

00:44:00.620 had the backbone of Francis

00:44:02.140 as to stand up against it.

00:44:03.700 And now you're seeing,

00:44:04.840 you talk about CRT in America,

00:44:06.420 it is being taught

00:44:07.160 in this country as well,

00:44:08.400 right?

00:44:08.980 And we've had people

00:44:10.060 in that chair,

00:44:11.280 Simon,

00:44:11.740 who go,

00:44:12.460 I don't agree with it.

00:44:13.540 It's completely wrong,

00:44:14.580 but my kids go to a school

00:44:16.040 where this happens

00:44:16.640 and I'm afraid to challenge it.

00:44:19.060 Tell me that is not

00:44:20.240 the path to ruin.

00:44:21.260 It's a path to ruin

00:44:24.740 if it were to be

00:44:25.940 the generality

00:44:27.400 of what's happening

00:44:27.940 in this country

00:44:28.440 as it was in Virginia.

00:44:30.480 I mean,

00:44:30.800 there are schools

00:44:32.200 in the United Kingdom,

00:44:35.220 which I came across

00:44:36.260 at least 10 years ago,

00:44:37.340 where they still teach

00:44:38.080 Croatianism.

00:44:40.560 There are places

00:44:41.420 in the United Kingdom,

00:44:42.540 and I'm talking about

00:44:43.000 Northern Ireland here,

00:44:44.180 you know,

00:44:44.440 where abortion

00:44:46.480 is passionately opposed,

00:44:47.600 where the most

00:44:49.180 rabid Conservative opinions

00:44:51.440 still rule,

00:44:52.840 and we don't do

00:44:53.680 anything about it.

00:44:54.760 It's the United,

00:44:55.340 the Liberal United Kingdom.

00:44:57.220 Peace walls

00:44:58.020 dividing our cities

00:44:59.300 in the United Kingdom.

00:45:00.960 I can't get anyone

00:45:01.760 excited about that. 0.92

00:45:02.860 Oh, the bloody 1.00

00:45:03.320 Northern Irish, 1.00

00:45:03.980 you know.

00:45:04.880 Now,

00:45:05.420 I'm not defending it,

00:45:06.420 I'm not attacking it,

00:45:07.620 but I just try to keep

00:45:09.200 these things in perspective.

00:45:11.640 The things that you were

00:45:12.760 referring to last year,

00:45:14.680 the reaction to it

00:45:15.820 was instantaneous

00:45:16.520 and fierce.

00:45:17.600 I mean,

00:45:18.340 the Home Secretary,

00:45:20.620 the police,

00:45:21.320 they all said

00:45:21.940 this is a mistake.

00:45:22.880 It's like people

00:45:23.460 who stopped the traffic

00:45:24.340 getting onto the roads.

00:45:25.880 It just enrages everybody.

00:45:27.620 Your strength of feeling,

00:45:29.220 I imagine,

00:45:29.760 is shared by 60,

00:45:30.780 70% of the population,

00:45:32.460 and I just don't think

00:45:33.940 it has any chance

00:45:35.040 of becoming

00:45:35.560 what might be called

00:45:36.180 the leitmotif

00:45:37.540 of British education policy

00:45:39.360 or social policy.

00:45:40.080 I just don't.

00:45:41.980 Yeah,

00:45:42.260 there's some craziness about it.

00:45:43.160 There have always been

00:45:43.540 some craziness about it.

00:45:44.960 When I was a student,

00:45:45.920 everything was Vietnam.

00:45:46.900 Vietnam,

00:45:47.200 Vietnam,

00:45:47.760 Vietnam,

00:45:48.140 why don't you do

00:45:48.660 more about Vietnam?

00:45:49.520 Nothing to do with me,

00:45:50.280 Vietnam.

00:45:50.740 It's playing outside

00:45:51.380 of the world.

00:45:52.560 Oh,

00:45:52.780 well,

00:45:53.000 what's wrong with you?

00:45:53.740 You know,

00:45:53.920 you've got some problem?

00:45:55.320 Come on,

00:45:56.120 come on to this march.

00:45:56.940 You're going to smash

00:45:57.440 something down.

00:45:57.940 Okay,

00:45:59.880 let me try again

00:46:00.600 on a different subject now.

00:46:02.800 You mentioned Muslim countries

00:46:04.420 and you mentioned that.

00:46:06.040 We've had a number

00:46:07.140 of terrorist attacks

00:46:07.880 in this country

00:46:08.400 in recent days,

00:46:09.280 which have been happening

00:46:11.140 for a long time

00:46:12.040 and statistically speaking,

00:46:14.000 extremely unlikely

00:46:14.900 to affect anyone

00:46:15.920 watching this,

00:46:17.060 listening to this.

00:46:17.620 The tiny,

00:46:18.680 tiny issue

00:46:19.240 in terms of

00:46:20.080 the number of people killed,

00:46:21.680 in terms of the number

00:46:22.260 of people physically affected.

00:46:24.260 But again,

00:46:25.200 the reaction,

00:46:26.380 you know,

00:46:26.800 this Liverpool bomber

00:46:28.580 that was talked about

00:46:29.780 as a Christian convert

00:46:30.780 and we all just buy,

00:46:31.780 like the Telegraph,

00:46:32.780 the Telegraph

00:46:33.420 are writing an article

00:46:34.280 going, 0.83

00:46:34.800 Christian convert bombs. 1.00

00:46:36.340 Really?

00:46:36.960 Are we buying into this idea

00:46:38.320 that this guy

00:46:38.860 was actually a Christian convert?

00:46:40.520 We're going to just

00:46:41.300 run with that?

00:46:42.560 Do you know what I mean?

00:46:43.100 So there's a cowardice

00:46:44.400 about naming the problem

00:46:45.720 on that issue,

00:46:46.280 don't you think?

00:46:48.740 I don't quite know.

00:46:49.560 It was just you

00:46:49.940 you were referring to.

00:46:50.680 I mean,

00:46:51.040 I got quite wrong

00:46:52.420 about terrorism.

00:46:53.080 Terrorism is a crime.

00:46:54.340 It should not be treated

00:46:55.240 as political at all.

00:46:56.380 Most of these people 0.97

00:46:56.980 are mad in some degree.

00:46:58.200 They've got problems.

00:46:59.840 They shouldn't be

00:47:00.860 in this country

00:47:01.340 or they should be

00:47:01.960 locked up or whatever.

00:47:03.020 I'm quite tough on that.

00:47:04.320 Yeah.

00:47:04.800 But what I refuse to do

00:47:06.820 is to recast my society

00:47:08.760 because politicians

00:47:10.680 and the media

00:47:11.860 so exaggerate the threat.

00:47:14.800 I mean,

00:47:15.020 the threat from drug gangs

00:47:16.820 is far worse than the threat.

00:47:17.840 Agreed.

00:47:18.020 We just live with it.

00:47:19.040 We just live with it now.

00:47:20.180 I mean,

00:47:20.320 we live with these

00:47:20.880 terrorist outrages.

00:47:21.660 And I...

00:47:25.620 My point is more

00:47:26.840 about the fact

00:47:27.420 that we refuse

00:47:27.980 to be honest

00:47:28.980 about the issue.

00:47:30.940 When Sir David Ames

00:47:32.960 was killed,

00:47:34.040 the politicians

00:47:34.520 started talking

00:47:35.160 about online anonymity

00:47:36.460 as if that had anything

00:47:37.580 to do with this guy

00:47:38.540 stabbing him.

00:47:39.540 Right? 0.99

00:47:40.140 The same with...

00:47:41.180 So my point is

00:47:42.260 we refuse to talk

00:47:43.860 about the issue

00:47:44.500 and I take your point

00:47:45.340 about drug gangs.

00:47:46.060 We've had Tony Solo

00:47:46.880 on the show

00:47:47.280 to talk about

00:47:47.980 the impact

00:47:49.120 in that community.

00:47:51.300 But my worry

00:47:53.100 is that

00:47:53.680 we are no longer

00:47:54.480 having an honest conversation.

00:47:56.100 Honest conversation

00:47:56.920 about so many issues.

00:47:59.200 To me,

00:47:59.600 that is a path

00:48:00.260 to ruin as well.

00:48:01.000 So I'm just trying

00:48:01.540 to help Francis out.

00:48:02.420 Well,

00:48:03.240 I...

00:48:04.420 Free speech

00:48:07.180 is an absolute.

00:48:08.920 Except,

00:48:09.560 of course,

00:48:09.760 it isn't.

00:48:10.220 So you say,

00:48:12.500 well,

00:48:12.620 I'm having an argument

00:48:13.680 with a Home Secretary

00:48:14.560 once about this concept

00:48:16.460 of causing offence

00:48:17.960 as a crime.

00:48:18.620 How do you define offence

00:48:19.460 if someone feels offended?

00:48:20.660 You mean the person

00:48:21.580 who's the victim

00:48:22.140 defines the crime?

00:48:23.360 Well,

00:48:23.620 that's where we are

00:48:24.080 at the moment,

00:48:24.560 you know.

00:48:24.860 I mean,

00:48:25.340 this is crazy.

00:48:26.560 I agree.

00:48:27.080 I mean,

00:48:27.580 this was 20 years ago.

00:48:29.820 Now,

00:48:30.560 if anything,

00:48:31.680 not quite as crazy

00:48:32.960 now as it was then.

00:48:34.520 But other forms

00:48:35.560 of craziness

00:48:36.020 have taken over

00:48:37.000 and I imagine

00:48:37.780 they always will.

00:48:39.420 If people haven't got

00:48:40.380 big things to worry about,

00:48:41.560 they'll find smaller things

00:48:42.380 to worry about

00:48:42.860 and make the smaller things big.

00:48:44.560 And that's what's happening

00:48:45.340 with free speech

00:48:46.000 at the moment.

00:48:47.820 To my mind,

00:48:48.680 it's absolutely absurd

00:48:49.920 that you try

00:48:50.940 and institutionalise

00:48:52.300 a reaction to

00:48:53.120 people who say

00:48:53.920 unfortunate words

00:48:54.820 or whatever it might be.

00:48:56.340 And this business

00:48:56.880 in cricket and so on,

00:48:57.960 it's no good.

00:48:59.000 I mean,

00:48:59.160 I'm not defending it,

00:48:59.940 I'm just simply saying

00:49:00.540 there has to be

00:49:01.980 a sense of proportion

00:49:02.700 in our response to it.

00:49:04.000 And we've lost

00:49:04.560 that sense of proportion,

00:49:06.020 partly because

00:49:06.640 enough people

00:49:07.660 have got a vested interest

00:49:08.520 in keeping this ball rolling.

00:49:11.080 To every single paper

00:49:12.260 when you open the page,

00:49:13.220 there's another story about it.

00:49:15.580 I just,

00:49:16.020 I mean,

00:49:16.280 I just don't think

00:49:16.940 it's going to,

00:49:17.400 I don't think

00:49:17.800 it's something else

00:49:19.020 to take its place.

00:49:20.100 I mean,

00:49:20.300 terrorism,

00:49:21.080 the word terrorism

00:49:22.760 was on every page

00:49:23.900 of every newspaper

00:49:24.660 every day,

00:49:25.440 more or less.

00:49:27.040 And as one of the

00:49:27.620 cover of Private Eye

00:49:28.360 said,

00:49:28.600 we mustn't,

00:49:29.080 we mustn't be terrorised

00:49:30.480 into fear.

00:49:31.560 What it was

00:49:32.120 on other pages,

00:49:33.340 panics.

00:49:35.400 It was a very good thing.

00:49:38.060 I'm coming back

00:49:39.060 to this rather relentless theme

00:49:40.720 about in political debate,

00:49:43.240 although the debater

00:49:44.620 like Socrates

00:49:45.320 has a vested interest

00:49:46.440 in bigging up

00:49:48.060 his or her side

00:49:49.960 of the argument,

00:49:51.660 the important thing

00:49:53.080 in the outcome,

00:49:53.740 which is why you have judges

00:49:54.460 who aren't decided,

00:49:55.840 so to speak,

00:49:56.540 is to put it

00:49:57.700 in proportion.

00:49:59.080 And getting it

00:49:59.660 into proportion

00:50:00.260 is the most difficult

00:50:01.360 political task

00:50:02.640 of all political tasks.

00:50:05.240 It's easy to say

00:50:05.980 what the problem is,

00:50:06.840 it's easy to say

00:50:07.320 what the solution is,

00:50:08.380 getting it into proportion,

00:50:09.600 that's much more difficult.

00:50:11.300 Simon,

00:50:12.720 Constantine's from Russia,

00:50:14.340 my family,

00:50:15.540 one half of them

00:50:16.220 are Venezuelan.

00:50:17.440 And over COVID,

00:50:19.800 alarm bells started

00:50:21.000 to ring more and more

00:50:21.880 in my head,

00:50:22.380 particularly when it came

00:50:23.260 to journalistic freedoms,

00:50:24.520 particularly after

00:50:25.260 what happened,

00:50:26.500 Matt Hancock,

00:50:27.280 he was deservedly fired

00:50:28.360 for what he did,

00:50:29.640 breaking the COVID regulations.

00:50:33.140 And then Priti Patel

00:50:34.700 trying to pass a bill,

00:50:36.020 I don't,

00:50:36.380 I lost track of it,

00:50:37.180 I don't know

00:50:37.440 if it was passed,

00:50:38.100 where if a journalist

00:50:39.500 would seem to humiliate

00:50:40.700 the government,

00:50:41.180 they could spend

00:50:41.920 14 years in jail,

00:50:43.840 maximum sentence.

00:50:44.920 Where do you see

00:50:45.580 journalistic freedoms now?

00:50:46.860 Do you think

00:50:47.140 they're as free

00:50:47.560 as they've ever been,

00:50:48.580 or do you think

00:50:49.320 there's been an effort

00:50:49.960 by the government

00:50:50.520 in order to try

00:50:51.200 and restrict them?

00:50:53.320 Well,

00:50:53.860 there's always the latter.

00:50:57.320 If you look at the spycatcher,

00:50:59.380 I can't remember

00:50:59.820 the dates of the spycatcher,

00:51:01.360 it was amazing.

00:51:02.120 The government simply said,

00:51:03.320 you aren't allowed to say

00:51:04.360 or do anything

00:51:05.260 that we don't let you.

00:51:06.200 I mean,

00:51:06.380 it was almost at that level

00:51:07.560 about areas of government.

00:51:10.940 I'm a great supporter

00:51:11.800 of Index on Censorship

00:51:12.700 and other groups like that

00:51:14.760 into news.

00:51:16.480 I mean,

00:51:16.620 they're important groups

00:51:17.780 that champion

00:51:18.440 journalistic freedom

00:51:19.460 around the world.

00:51:20.940 I went to speak

00:51:21.620 in Colombia once

00:51:22.580 under the old regime.

00:51:24.680 I mean,

00:51:25.740 a quarter at least

00:51:26.380 of the people

00:51:26.760 I was talking to

00:51:27.260 are now dead.

00:51:28.780 I mean,

00:51:29.000 to be a journalist

00:51:29.520 in these countries

00:51:30.060 is to be brave.

00:51:32.120 I don't think

00:51:32.900 you've got to be

00:51:33.140 very brave in this country.

00:51:34.200 I really don't.

00:51:35.660 And I also think

00:51:37.320 it's a rather booming profession.

00:51:39.660 People always say

00:51:40.300 it's dead.

00:51:41.280 It's not dead.

00:51:42.140 More journalists

00:51:42.780 are being employed

00:51:43.340 every year

00:51:43.780 than the year before,

00:51:44.820 I think.

00:51:45.160 most of them

00:51:46.480 in social media

00:51:47.140 and all these

00:51:47.580 sorts of activities,

00:51:48.760 but they're in employment.

00:51:50.500 And investigative journalism

00:51:51.700 has never been so vigorous.

00:51:53.460 I mean,

00:51:53.540 the Panama Papers,

00:51:54.700 I mean,

00:51:54.860 all these things

00:51:55.720 and the WikiLeaks

00:51:58.140 and things

00:51:58.360 the Guardian was doing

00:51:59.320 are major,

00:52:01.840 major disclosures

00:52:03.580 of secret areas

00:52:04.480 of the state

00:52:05.400 and of the private sector

00:52:06.580 which were completely

00:52:07.740 hidden before.

00:52:09.540 And it's worth

00:52:10.240 going back

00:52:10.900 and looking at

00:52:11.500 a newspaper.

00:52:11.920 We were having

00:52:12.460 this argument

00:52:12.880 with someone

00:52:13.180 and I said,

00:52:13.720 right,

00:52:13.920 let's get every copy

00:52:14.660 of the Daily Papers

00:52:15.560 from 1955,

00:52:18.040 1960,

00:52:18.920 1965.

00:52:19.680 You sit down

00:52:20.380 and read them.

00:52:21.540 They are beyond belief dull.

00:52:23.780 I mean,

00:52:24.060 90% of it

00:52:25.160 was just reporting

00:52:26.240 what happened

00:52:26.880 in Parliament

00:52:27.360 or the courts.

00:52:29.140 And there was

00:52:30.020 nothing

00:52:30.760 revelatory

00:52:32.680 or sensational.

00:52:35.260 Tabloids

00:52:35.700 were slightly different.

00:52:36.780 But the quality

00:52:38.080 of the journalism

00:52:38.640 was appalling

00:52:39.460 by comparison today.

00:52:40.980 And I just do think

00:52:42.440 that,

00:52:43.140 I mean,

00:52:43.300 you've just seen it

00:52:44.080 with sleaze. 0.90

00:52:45.440 These guys

00:52:46.700 weren't killing people.

00:52:47.880 I mean,

00:52:48.040 they were doing

00:52:49.320 dodgy things

00:52:50.120 which they shouldn't

00:52:50.600 be doing.

00:52:51.000 All right,

00:52:51.360 I'm not defending it.

00:52:52.660 But,

00:52:52.880 I mean,

00:52:53.860 they're killed.

00:52:55.200 I mean,

00:52:55.560 the savagery

00:52:57.320 of the press response

00:52:59.020 to them,

00:53:00.000 I just,

00:53:00.480 I think he's over the top.

00:53:01.480 I really do.

00:53:01.920 And I've got

00:53:02.200 so sympathy

00:53:02.600 with Boris Johnson

00:53:03.300 in some of his respects.

00:53:05.040 Okay,

00:53:05.480 I'll push back.

00:53:06.200 I'm afraid.

00:53:06.860 I agree with you.

00:53:08.440 I'll push back on that.

00:53:09.720 So like I said,

00:53:11.100 my mother's from Venezuela.

00:53:12.220 I saw what corruption does.

00:53:13.980 If you don't challenge corruption,

00:53:15.320 if you don't root out corruption,

00:53:16.900 corruption's like a cancer.

00:53:18.020 It will spread its tentacles 0.97

00:53:18.980 into every aspect of society.

00:53:20.800 And ultimately,

00:53:22.320 the society will crumble

00:53:23.640 as a result.

00:53:24.320 I've seen it with my own eyes.

00:53:26.880 I think you need,

00:53:28.000 when a corruption happens

00:53:28.980 or when you see it,

00:53:29.740 it needs to be ripped out 0.98

00:53:30.820 and it needs to be attacked.

00:53:33.940 Otherwise,

00:53:34.700 what will happen

00:53:35.500 is like I just said.

00:53:37.160 And that's a doomsday scenario,

00:53:38.660 but I've seen it.

00:53:40.180 Would you not agree with that?

00:53:41.260 I would.

00:53:41.740 I mean,

00:53:42.140 I would very strongly.

00:53:44.160 I mean,

00:53:44.440 it's one of the reasons

00:53:45.680 when I go to Venezuela

00:53:47.000 a few times,

00:53:47.860 it's a lovely country

00:53:48.820 and I've seen it.

00:53:49.420 It's an absolutely marvellous place.

00:53:50.820 Rich too.

00:53:51.700 Yeah.

00:53:52.720 But,

00:53:53.080 you know,

00:53:54.080 it went wrong.

00:53:56.780 And the question then is,

00:53:58.500 what do I do about it?

00:53:59.800 I mean,

00:54:00.160 I can say that.

00:54:01.360 I can commiserate.

00:54:03.240 Is it my business?

00:54:05.060 I'm not so sure.

00:54:06.520 I'm in a country,

00:54:07.360 which is probably

00:54:07.860 the only country in the world,

00:54:09.320 where you can go

00:54:10.120 into the public marketplace

00:54:11.940 and buy yourself

00:54:12.820 a seat in Parliament

00:54:13.620 as a peer.

00:54:15.460 You can actually

00:54:16.200 buy yourself

00:54:16.780 a seat in Parliament.

00:54:17.420 I find that staggering.

00:54:19.860 I find no country

00:54:20.860 that tolerates that

00:54:21.680 is entitled

00:54:22.140 to criticise

00:54:22.760 any other country

00:54:23.520 for the quality

00:54:24.220 of their democracy,

00:54:25.280 as long as that's the case

00:54:26.340 in this country.

00:54:27.600 And yet,

00:54:28.580 people shrug

00:54:29.620 and they smile

00:54:30.520 and they do the things

00:54:31.160 they do in Turkey

00:54:32.440 and they do in Brazil

00:54:33.620 and so on.

00:54:34.460 Oh,

00:54:34.800 well,

00:54:35.020 you know,

00:54:35.460 it's life.

00:54:37.480 It's not life.

00:54:39.520 As long as you're

00:54:40.220 selling seats in Parliament,

00:54:41.360 it's not life.

00:54:42.160 It's corrupt.

00:54:44.100 British politics, 0.90

00:54:45.000 I had a terrible round

00:54:45.660 on the BBC

00:54:46.020 because I said

00:54:46.720 it was corrupt

00:54:47.720 in some news programme.

00:54:50.080 They said,

00:54:50.200 you can't use that word.

00:54:52.380 You've got to be able

00:54:52.900 to prove it.

00:54:53.500 Oh,

00:54:53.980 should we have a court case?

00:54:54.840 Let's discuss it in court.

00:54:56.700 You know,

00:54:57.200 this poor presenter

00:54:58.400 has obviously been told

00:54:59.160 and never to allow

00:54:59.740 the word corrupt

00:55:00.380 to be applied

00:55:00.940 to the Conservative government.

00:55:02.160 I can't believe it.

00:55:03.580 But,

00:55:03.800 I mean,

00:55:04.160 I think,

00:55:05.100 I'm really saying

00:55:05.820 it's a complicated message.

00:55:07.560 The terms of the debate matter.

00:55:10.460 If you want other people

00:55:11.260 who disagree with you

00:55:12.000 to be persuaded by you,

00:55:13.040 you've got to go,

00:55:13.860 in a sense,

00:55:14.740 some way

00:55:15.300 into the conversation

00:55:16.480 to establish

00:55:17.060 the rules of the game.

00:55:19.540 When Kenneth Clark

00:55:21.220 was doing his great series

00:55:22.360 on civilisation,

00:55:23.300 he was asked in the very

00:55:24.100 last programme,

00:55:25.020 what are the defining qualities

00:55:26.780 of a civilised country.

00:55:29.980 And he said,

00:55:31.220 very interestingly,

00:55:31.840 he said,

00:55:32.140 I think actually

00:55:32.940 it's the courtesy

00:55:35.080 of public debate.

00:55:36.840 Interesting word,

00:55:37.720 courtesy.

00:55:38.540 And it's rather

00:55:39.480 what I'm discussing

00:55:40.080 here now.

00:55:41.020 It's the terms

00:55:41.700 in which you conduct

00:55:42.460 this debate.

00:55:43.860 Do you hold your head

00:55:45.700 in your hands

00:55:46.080 and scream 1.00

00:55:46.700 or burst into tears

00:55:48.040 or shout

00:55:48.580 or whatever?

00:55:49.960 Or do you say,

00:55:50.740 why do you think that?

00:55:52.340 I mean,

00:55:52.880 why do you,

00:55:54.000 I was trying to say

00:55:54.860 to my niece,

00:55:55.460 why do you think that?

00:55:57.800 All right,

00:55:58.360 you think it's true,

00:55:59.100 but firstly,

00:56:00.040 do you respect

00:56:00.460 my not agreeing with you?

00:56:02.120 Do you use the word

00:56:03.100 respect at all

00:56:03.880 in terms of this conversation?

00:56:05.980 But having established respect,

00:56:07.720 we then have rules

00:56:08.700 in which we conduct this

00:56:10.000 and those rules

00:56:10.880 are governed

00:56:11.140 by what I call courtesy.

00:56:13.480 I think I'm going

00:56:14.460 back to your point

00:56:14.740 about freedom of speech.

00:56:15.860 I mean,

00:56:16.060 I think these are

00:56:16.720 the essential qualities

00:56:18.460 of freedom of speech,

00:56:19.580 not just being allowed

00:56:20.360 to shout louder

00:56:21.000 than the other guy.

00:56:22.880 No,

00:56:23.560 absolutely right.

00:56:24.600 But I think France's point,

00:56:26.240 I hear what you're saying is,

00:56:27.820 and I agree,

00:56:28.540 to me,

00:56:29.240 I'll be honest with you,

00:56:30.140 maybe this is my Russian background,

00:56:31.840 but it's like 0.94

00:56:32.780 politicians being corrupt.

00:56:34.380 I saw the Blair government, 0.92

00:56:35.480 they were exactly the same,

00:56:36.720 exactly the same,

00:56:37.580 in the same way

00:56:38.200 that these guys

00:56:39.180 are doing what they're doing.

00:56:40.460 Those people were

00:56:41.220 taking cash for questions

00:56:42.920 and all of that stuff,

00:56:44.200 right?

00:56:44.380 This was all happening

00:56:45.140 and I kind of see it

00:56:46.480 as a sort of

00:56:47.140 should be condemned,

00:56:48.420 should someone somewhere

00:56:49.880 should do something

00:56:50.760 about it really.

00:56:51.900 But it's kind of

00:56:52.700 the price of doing business,

00:56:53.880 isn't it?

00:56:55.360 Well,

00:56:55.620 I mean,

00:56:55.860 you've seen,

00:56:58.100 we have not heard

00:56:59.540 the end of this yet,

00:57:00.680 but 38 billion pounds

00:57:02.060 was swilling around

00:57:04.000 Whitehall

00:57:04.700 for about six months

00:57:06.060 over test and trace

00:57:08.020 and PPE,

00:57:09.140 the beginning of the pandemic.

00:57:10.520 and it was as if

00:57:12.800 it was as if

00:57:13.320 you were suddenly

00:57:13.880 in Russia in 1990.

00:57:16.360 Yep.

00:57:16.920 I mean,

00:57:17.220 everybody's like,

00:57:18.100 Jesus Christ,

00:57:18.740 I can make a fortune.

00:57:21.160 Well,

00:57:21.680 you sure?

00:57:22.680 I can make a fortune.

00:57:23.940 Well,

00:57:24.060 it's not right.

00:57:24.540 I can make a fortune.

00:57:25.480 I mean,

00:57:25.860 people were

00:57:26.460 just into that trough

00:57:28.480 in a brace of shakes

00:57:30.180 and the system

00:57:31.860 helped them

00:57:32.320 and we don't know

00:57:34.140 where 30,

00:57:34.640 probably more like 20 now,

00:57:36.480 but we don't know

00:57:37.140 where 20 billion went.

00:57:38.340 I doubt if the National

00:57:39.600 Audit Office

00:57:40.060 will ever find out.

00:57:41.480 This was a deeply

00:57:42.460 corrupt period.

00:57:43.780 There were reasons for it.

00:57:45.260 Governments were panicking,

00:57:46.920 but nonetheless,

00:57:48.060 when you suspend

00:57:48.740 the rules of the game,

00:57:50.040 you get corruption.

00:57:51.400 And I'll push back

00:57:53.380 once more,

00:57:54.020 Simon.

00:57:54.340 So,

00:57:55.300 we have a housing crisis

00:57:57.500 in this country

00:57:58.440 which is having

00:57:59.880 a huge untold impact

00:58:02.380 on the lives

00:58:02.960 of young people,

00:58:04.200 on birth rates,

00:58:05.340 on society.

00:58:07.400 And no government,

00:58:09.040 whether Labour

00:58:09.480 or Conservative,

00:58:10.260 has done a lot

00:58:11.100 to change that.

00:58:12.480 They haven't done

00:58:13.000 a lot to solve the problem.

00:58:14.000 The problem

00:58:14.300 has continually got worse.

00:58:15.880 Johnson,

00:58:16.260 when he got elected,

00:58:17.340 one of his pledges

00:58:18.160 was that he was going

00:58:18.780 to do something about it.

00:58:20.280 Michael Gove

00:58:20.840 gets 120 grand

00:58:22.320 from housing companies.

00:58:24.280 All of a sudden,

00:58:25.620 it's been shelved

00:58:26.880 to the back.

00:58:27.380 Now,

00:58:27.560 are those two things

00:58:28.200 connected?

00:58:28.800 I'm not sure.

00:58:30.300 But once again,

00:58:31.800 we kick a huge

00:58:32.800 societal problem.

00:58:33.960 We kick the can

00:58:34.740 further down the road.

00:58:36.220 Well,

00:58:37.140 I don't agree.

00:58:38.800 We have no housing crisis.

00:58:39.960 We have a housing market.

00:58:41.800 The housing market

00:58:42.640 houses most British people

00:58:44.480 perfectly satisfactorily.

00:58:45.520 Apart from the homeless,

00:58:46.440 who I do worry about.

00:58:49.360 The place where

00:58:50.860 the housing crisis

00:58:51.460 is supposed to be

00:58:52.020 worst is London.

00:58:53.540 London has the youngest 0.98

00:58:54.880 labour force

00:58:55.580 and the youngest population

00:58:56.680 in Britain.

00:58:57.720 They live somewhere.

00:59:00.420 The tradition

00:59:01.280 that everyone

00:59:01.780 should own

00:59:03.140 their own house

00:59:03.740 at the age of 30

00:59:04.480 is absurd.

00:59:05.720 It applies

00:59:06.080 to no other country.

00:59:07.340 It was started

00:59:07.760 by Thatcher,

00:59:08.560 my friend,

00:59:09.460 not yours.

00:59:10.680 You said everyone

00:59:11.180 has a right

00:59:11.880 to own a house

00:59:13.340 and she sold off

00:59:14.740 public housing stock

00:59:15.900 to these people

00:59:16.720 who immediately

00:59:17.140 rented it out

00:59:18.100 for profit.

00:59:19.860 But I just don't

00:59:21.740 see this housing.

00:59:22.300 I mean,

00:59:22.480 every country in the world,

00:59:23.820 we meet the Economist

00:59:24.520 every week,

00:59:25.380 has house prices

00:59:26.440 going up

00:59:26.920 by faster than inflation.

00:59:29.340 The biggest problem

00:59:30.400 is we underuse houses.

00:59:32.120 That's the crisis.

00:59:33.520 In London in particular,

00:59:34.400 London has the lowest

00:59:35.140 house occupancy

00:59:36.060 of any city in Europe.

00:59:38.040 We've got two bedrooms

00:59:39.520 for every person

00:59:40.220 and the reason for that

00:59:41.640 is the taxation system

00:59:42.680 does not tax properties

00:59:43.820 it should

00:59:44.240 and we tax housing transfers

00:59:46.580 through stamp duty

00:59:47.360 which means that no one

00:59:48.100 has any interest

00:59:49.540 in selling their large house

00:59:50.760 and getting into a smaller one.

00:59:52.260 So all housing policy

00:59:53.380 is crazy

00:59:53.940 but I don't see a crisis.

00:59:57.220 The only crisis

00:59:58.120 is homelessness

00:59:58.840 and that is what

01:00:00.120 we're pouring money

01:00:01.980 into first-time buying

01:00:03.080 which mainly increases

01:00:04.060 the price.

01:00:04.740 The taxpayers

01:00:05.460 are increasing house prices.

01:00:06.780 Yes.

01:00:07.500 Agreed with you there

01:00:08.140 but Simon,

01:00:08.580 That money ought to go

01:00:09.200 on a homeless people.

01:00:09.540 But come on,

01:00:10.220 you say there's no housing crisis,

01:00:11.780 you've got young people

01:00:12.700 who are living five to a flat.

01:00:14.600 What that means

01:00:15.280 is they're not going to get,

01:00:16.440 they're not going to be

01:00:17.040 getting married,

01:00:17.660 they're not going to be

01:00:18.100 having children.

01:00:19.060 That affects their outlook

01:00:20.080 on life,

01:00:20.620 it means they act

01:00:21.240 in less mature ways,

01:00:22.660 frankly,

01:00:23.120 we see it with our generation.

01:00:25.140 The percentage

01:00:26.180 of your income

01:00:27.540 that is spent on housing

01:00:29.140 is rising rapidly

01:00:30.780 for young people

01:00:31.660 in particular.

01:00:32.600 It's what I paid.

01:00:35.560 Percentage-wise?

01:00:36.340 Yeah.

01:00:36.420 I paid 35% of my income

01:00:38.920 when I was young

01:00:39.440 on my house.

01:00:41.020 It was crazy,

01:00:41.720 I was buying a flat,

01:00:42.340 I shouldn't be,

01:00:42.640 I should have been renting,

01:00:43.880 I hadn't settled.

01:00:44.920 In Germany,

01:00:45.580 you buy a house

01:00:45.980 and you settle.

01:00:47.360 You rent otherwise.

01:00:49.160 We're now back

01:00:49.800 to the renting levels

01:00:50.560 that we had

01:00:51.020 quite some time ago

01:00:52.960 before the house

01:00:53.820 buying boom

01:00:54.960 went out of hand,

01:00:56.520 which it never did

01:00:57.140 in Germany,

01:00:57.680 incidentally.

01:00:58.600 It's quite interesting

01:00:59.720 how different places are.

01:01:00.640 this word crisis

01:01:03.200 goes with the word

01:01:04.040 housing

01:01:04.400 as if it's one phrase.

01:01:06.260 I mean,

01:01:06.440 there's not a transport crisis

01:01:07.700 or a food crisis

01:01:08.780 or anything,

01:01:09.060 there's a housing crisis

01:01:09.800 because we're so used

01:01:11.560 to using the phrase

01:01:12.600 that the housing,

01:01:13.980 the housing building lobby

01:01:14.680 always use.

01:01:16.420 No,

01:01:16.940 I just think,

01:01:19.120 I think government

01:01:19.480 ought to be in housing

01:01:20.180 except for very,

01:01:20.940 very poor people.

01:01:22.280 But the problem is

01:01:22.940 the government isn't housing

01:01:23.840 and it's messing everything up.

01:01:24.980 It's messing it up

01:01:25.920 by effectively subsidising

01:01:27.440 house prices

01:01:28.620 and the house prices

01:01:29.620 go up.

01:01:30.240 But people still buy houses

01:01:31.880 and people still live

01:01:33.340 in London.

01:01:33.860 I mean,

01:01:34.100 there's scandals.

01:01:35.560 Scandals as empty property.

01:01:37.480 Scandals as foreigners 1.00

01:01:38.260 buying houses

01:01:38.920 and not living in them.

01:01:39.820 That I deal with.

01:01:41.700 But there are,

01:01:43.580 all I can say

01:01:44.120 is you walk the streets

01:01:44.800 of London.

01:01:45.540 I mean,

01:01:46.180 you can then walk

01:01:47.120 the streets of Manchester.

01:01:48.260 It's as if there

01:01:48.700 are two age groups.

01:01:50.640 London is just so young now.

01:01:52.800 I live five to a flat once.

01:01:56.660 I mean,

01:01:56.940 come on.

01:01:58.240 But do you not think

01:01:59.740 that it's a problem

01:02:01.580 where people

01:02:02.300 can't see a way out

01:02:03.860 of a rental situation

01:02:05.260 where they have no hope

01:02:07.100 in being able

01:02:08.580 to afford to buy a place

01:02:09.700 because house prices

01:02:11.140 have increased

01:02:11.760 a huge amount

01:02:13.140 and wages

01:02:14.500 haven't kept up.

01:02:15.440 Surely that's a problem,

01:02:16.560 Simon.

01:02:18.220 It's not a problem.

01:02:19.400 It's a fact.

01:02:20.560 If it is a fact,

01:02:21.600 I mean,

01:02:21.720 all the younger people

01:02:24.080 I know

01:02:24.420 seem somehow

01:02:25.060 to find somewhere

01:02:25.600 to live

01:02:25.920 is all I can say.

01:02:27.100 It may not be

01:02:27.600 where they want to live.

01:02:28.440 People always want

01:02:28.960 a better house.

01:02:30.180 So that demand

01:02:31.180 always exceeds supply.

01:02:32.820 So the concept

01:02:33.340 of housing need

01:02:34.020 is meaningless.

01:02:34.780 It's used by the government

01:02:35.580 still.

01:02:35.880 It's an old Marxist concept.

01:02:37.080 The only survival

01:02:37.920 of Marxism

01:02:38.460 in British government

01:02:39.120 is the concept

01:02:39.760 of housing need.

01:02:42.540 As if there's

01:02:43.100 a fixed number of people

01:02:43.920 and a fixed number

01:02:44.480 of houses.

01:02:45.000 There aren't.

01:02:45.420 It's a highly fluid market.

01:02:48.340 I can get the streets

01:02:48.960 in suburban Manchester.

01:02:50.320 You can walk along

01:02:50.920 empty street

01:02:51.660 after empty street

01:02:52.400 after empty street.

01:02:53.860 You can find that

01:02:54.720 in parts of the West Midlands.

01:02:56.440 Empty street

01:02:57.080 after empty street.

01:02:57.980 There's plenty of houses.

01:02:59.580 Not only that,

01:03:00.080 but they're all carbon sinks.

01:03:01.880 I mean,

01:03:02.100 the last thing

01:03:02.600 it should be

01:03:02.940 is demolishing them 0.85

01:03:03.620 and building blocks

01:03:04.200 of flats,

01:03:04.680 which we're continuing to do.

01:03:06.700 But people want

01:03:07.760 to live in the southeast.

01:03:09.620 House prices go up

01:03:10.320 in the southeast.

01:03:11.020 As they go up in

01:03:12.100 Sydney and Melbourne,

01:03:13.600 San Francisco

01:03:14.080 and Los Angeles,

01:03:15.260 around New York.

01:03:16.000 Britain is in 0.98

01:03:17.880 the lower half

01:03:18.860 of world capitals

01:03:20.260 in terms of

01:03:20.880 house price inflation.

01:03:22.820 Just look at the facts.

01:03:24.280 It's one of my

01:03:24.980 jobs to do occasionally.

01:03:26.920 It is not a problem.

01:03:29.300 It's a need.

01:03:30.640 People want better houses.

01:03:31.920 There's no question

01:03:32.520 about that.

01:03:33.180 And they all want

01:03:33.720 to live in the countryside.

01:03:35.100 And they want

01:03:35.460 to drive to work.

01:03:36.700 They want to not have

01:03:37.660 to sweat on the

01:03:39.580 commuter trains.

01:03:41.160 It may well be

01:03:41.700 that's going to be

01:03:42.340 the new pattern

01:03:44.440 now after lockdown.

01:03:45.140 I don't think so,

01:03:46.280 but it may be.

01:03:47.620 But, I mean,

01:03:48.460 you can literally

01:03:49.480 do what everyone wants.

01:03:51.520 And you can simply

01:03:52.640 build houses

01:03:53.200 over the whole

01:03:53.740 of Kent and East Anglia.

01:03:56.020 And that's what

01:03:56.460 people will want.

01:03:57.180 That's what people

01:03:57.580 will demand.

01:03:58.280 And I'll keep on saying

01:03:58.960 there's a crisis

01:03:59.540 because I can't get

01:04:00.260 what I want.

01:04:01.860 But people starting

01:04:03.380 out on life

01:04:03.960 often have trouble

01:04:05.020 living in the space

01:04:06.260 they can afford.

01:04:07.680 It's not new about that.

01:04:10.320 Housing standards

01:04:11.200 in Britain are better 0.63

01:04:11.860 than they've ever

01:04:12.220 been in history.

01:04:13.500 So there wasn't

01:04:14.280 some golden age

01:04:15.280 when everybody

01:04:16.220 has exactly the

01:04:16.880 house they wanted

01:04:17.540 and possibly

01:04:19.140 between the wars

01:04:19.920 which is sort of

01:04:20.440 golden age.

01:04:21.840 But no,

01:04:22.620 I just don't recognise

01:04:24.140 this word crisis.

01:04:25.300 I just don't.

01:04:26.020 All right.

01:04:27.100 Simon,

01:04:28.060 it's been a...

01:04:28.500 Sorry.

01:04:29.140 No, it's fine.

01:04:30.240 It's fine.

01:04:30.620 This is the nature

01:04:31.240 of the show.

01:04:31.440 Everything is fine

01:04:32.260 and as a result

01:04:33.180 Francis is going to

01:04:33.980 get more depressed

01:04:34.640 than he usually is.

01:04:36.000 But Simon,

01:04:36.760 it's been a pleasure

01:04:37.320 chatting with you.

01:04:37.900 We've got a couple

01:04:38.420 of questions

01:04:38.840 for our local supporters.

01:04:40.060 But before we wrap

01:04:41.360 up the interview

01:04:41.940 we'll always end

01:04:42.740 with one final question

01:04:43.800 which is of course

01:04:44.560 what is the one thing

01:04:45.760 we're not talking about

01:04:46.720 as a society

01:04:47.440 that we really should be?

01:04:49.900 I think...

01:04:50.260 Well, I just...

01:04:51.040 I'm always fascinated

01:04:51.640 by taboos

01:04:52.420 given what we've

01:04:54.500 all been talking about.

01:04:55.600 As are we

01:04:55.920 as you can tell.

01:04:56.500 They're mercifully

01:04:57.420 slightly fewer

01:04:58.160 than they were

01:04:58.660 but there's always

01:04:59.540 a new taboo

01:05:00.140 bubbling along

01:05:00.920 and because of my

01:05:03.340 past interest

01:05:03.920 in the subject

01:05:04.320 I've always felt

01:05:04.980 that there's a curious

01:05:06.540 taboo about

01:05:07.480 pleasures that other

01:05:09.600 people have

01:05:10.080 but we don't have

01:05:10.920 of which

01:05:12.320 a classic one

01:05:13.540 is taking soft drugs

01:05:14.900 or taking drugs

01:05:15.640 in general.

01:05:16.580 I regard drugs

01:05:17.820 as a menace

01:05:18.480 and serious drugs

01:05:21.120 as a serious menace

01:05:22.020 but the handling

01:05:24.280 of drugs

01:05:24.960 fascinates me

01:05:26.500 because over

01:05:27.500 the whole western world

01:05:28.960 not so much

01:05:29.900 the eastern world

01:05:30.560 we simply don't know

01:05:31.780 what to do about it.

01:05:33.160 We reckon we can

01:05:34.160 handle alcohol

01:05:35.000 which is a very serious drug

01:05:36.240 we can handle obesity

01:05:38.000 we think

01:05:38.640 which is a serious drug

01:05:39.840 or the result

01:05:40.540 of a serious drug

01:05:41.260 we handle smoking

01:05:44.000 rather successfully.

01:05:45.260 We didn't handle it

01:05:46.100 by banning smoking

01:05:46.920 we handled it

01:05:48.200 by regulating smoking

01:05:49.220 but recreational drugs

01:05:51.920 as they're called

01:05:52.700 in some sense

01:05:54.080 rightly so

01:05:54.760 absolutely defeat us

01:05:56.540 and the United Nations

01:05:57.480 went along with Nixon

01:05:59.120 in declaring war on drugs

01:06:00.500 it's ruined

01:06:02.160 half a dozen

01:06:03.100 Latin American countries

01:06:04.220 including

01:06:04.640 maybe Venezuela

01:06:06.060 I mean I was in Peru

01:06:07.920 and I couldn't believe

01:06:08.760 the wreckage

01:06:10.600 the American drugs market

01:06:12.400 has caused

01:06:12.980 on these countries

01:06:13.660 in which Mexico

01:06:14.300 is the most devastating

01:06:16.040 entirely by drugs

01:06:17.960 the entire criminal class

01:06:20.220 is built on drugs

01:06:21.060 the same is true 0.98

01:06:22.340 in large parts of Europe

01:06:23.300 it's true in a number

01:06:24.520 of English cities

01:06:25.280 the county lines phenomenon

01:06:26.820 has brought an extraordinary

01:06:29.040 degree of criminal activity

01:06:30.240 and we just can't handle it

01:06:31.780 we just can't handle it

01:06:32.980 and the result is

01:06:34.340 that we

01:06:35.540 and I was on the committee

01:06:36.440 that was reviewing

01:06:37.020 the 1973 drugs act

01:06:38.640 it has been changed

01:06:41.040 it's half a century

01:06:42.440 of this problem

01:06:43.540 we haven't begun

01:06:44.240 to tackle it

01:06:44.920 and I just find it

01:06:46.360 so depressing

01:06:47.060 that the government

01:06:49.340 which now has examples

01:06:50.880 around the world

01:06:51.440 of all sorts of different

01:06:52.320 ways of tackling it

01:06:53.160 in this country

01:06:53.980 is one of the most

01:06:54.820 backward and unreconstructed

01:06:57.460 and I almost give up

01:06:59.560 well Germany is about 0.67

01:07:00.640 to decriminalize cannabis

01:07:01.820 do you think decriminalization

01:07:03.820 is the solution

01:07:04.780 for those types of drugs?

01:07:06.620 I decriminalize all drugs

01:07:09.720 I decriminalize all things

01:07:12.440 there's no point in criminalizing

01:07:13.640 a market

01:07:14.020 it's like going to the Gulf

01:07:15.600 and criminalizing oil

01:07:17.200 it's like that

01:07:19.200 everybody's in this business

01:07:20.840 all right

01:07:21.680 we'll have to do it

01:07:22.460 under the counter

01:07:23.260 I think you decriminalize it

01:07:26.620 yes

01:07:26.900 but you regulate it

01:07:28.420 you just regulate

01:07:29.620 like you regulate tobacco

01:07:30.680 you regulate drink

01:07:31.540 I mean all these things

01:07:32.440 are regulated

01:07:33.020 there's no reason

01:07:34.160 why this shouldn't be regulated

01:07:35.300 and what's so fascinating now

01:07:37.320 is that about six states

01:07:38.380 in America

01:07:38.780 are doing it

01:07:39.220 they're all doing it differently

01:07:40.300 some it's working

01:07:41.780 Colorado it's working

01:07:43.240 some it's not

01:07:44.340 California it's not working

01:07:45.320 very well

01:07:45.880 but they're all at least

01:07:48.380 taking a great chunk

01:07:49.780 of quotes criminal activity

01:07:51.660 out of the criminal sphere

01:07:54.080 and sooner or later

01:07:55.960 prison population

01:07:56.960 will come down

01:07:57.660 police will be less worried

01:07:59.620 about this one particular crime

01:08:00.940 mental health can get into operation

01:08:04.240 to tackle people with drug problems

01:08:06.100 which is a huge issue

01:08:07.420 we underestimate

01:08:09.960 how massive

01:08:11.060 the consequence is

01:08:12.920 of criminalizing drugs

01:08:14.040 couldn't agree with you more

01:08:16.060 on that one

01:08:16.520 Simon

01:08:17.220 been an absolute pleasure

01:08:18.300 thank you so much for coming on

01:08:19.780 where can people find your work

01:08:21.660 you write for the Guardian

01:08:22.460 obviously

01:08:22.840 is there anything else

01:08:23.480 people should go and see

01:08:24.560 any books they should check out

01:08:25.820 any good bookshop

01:08:27.380 fantastic

01:08:28.380 look up Simon Jenkins

01:08:29.460 thank you

01:08:30.400 for watching

01:08:31.300 and listening at home

01:08:32.360 or wherever you've been

01:08:33.300 and we'll see you very soon

01:08:34.880 with another brilliant episode

01:08:35.960 like this one

01:08:36.640 or Raw Show

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01:08:38.500 7pm UK time

01:08:39.600 and for those of you

01:08:40.420 who like your Trigonometry

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01:08:43.740 take care

01:08:44.640 and see you soon guys

01:08:45.700 we hope you've enjoyed

01:08:47.480 this incredible interview

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TRIGGERnometry - December 23, 2021

＂It's Not As Bad As You Think＂ - Simon Jenkins

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