TRIGGERnometry - Julia Hartley-Brewer：＂This Lockdown is Insane＂

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishan.

00:00:09.260 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:15.000 A fascinating guest we have for you today. She's a broadcaster, journalist and radio talk show host.

00:00:21.160 Julia Hartley-Brew, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:23.420 Thank you very much indeed. I hope I am fascinating. I'll do my best.

00:00:26.580 Well, we'll find out very quickly. But there are many fascinating things to talk about. Just for disclosure for our viewers and listeners, we're recording this on the Thursday after the Tuesday on which the election happened in the US and the first day of lockdown here in England as well.

00:00:42.320 obviously things are going to change by the hour so we won't get into the nitty gritty of it but

00:00:47.520 let's talk about the u.s election first it was a very unexpected result no matter who wins the

00:00:53.300 election just in terms of how the vote broke down and it seems to me that you know the pollsters got

00:00:58.420 it wrong again didn't they well you say unexpected i have to say every single guest i've had on my

00:01:02.880 show for the last few months talking about the upcoming election i said what about the shy trump

00:01:07.820 voter and they all poo-pooed it and everyone said oh no no no uh that the pollsters have dealt with

00:01:12.880 that they're not going to get it wrong like they did in 2016 with trump versus hillary clinton

00:01:17.700 and i just kept thinking i've just got a funny feeling about this i was watching everything

00:01:23.540 that was going on with black lives matters and there's running street battles and and all of the 0.98

00:01:28.440 ongoing insanity of diversity politics and trans this and trans that and i just thought i mean i

00:01:33.980 spent a couple of years of my childhood in living in America in the Midwest and I've always had an

00:01:39.820 interest in American politics and I just thought I'm not sure this is going to be going down very

00:01:45.460 well with the ordinary American voter in the same way that telling a load of British people you're 0.94

00:01:50.860 all nasty horrible racists and the country's terrible and everyone's having a terrible time 0.91

00:01:55.680 and we're all going to die I just don't think that's how most people think about their country 0.94

00:02:01.380 certainly not Brits and Americans, who are very proud of their countries, like most people of

00:02:07.120 their country. So I always thought that there was a very strong possibility that Trump could do it.

00:02:13.240 I didn't want him to do it. I'm not a Trump fan at all. If I was an American, I'd vote Democrat,

00:02:18.280 no question at all. I'd struggle with Joe Biden, but I'd hold my nose and do it anyway.

00:02:24.300 So I wasn't that surprised. If we had to put our money on it right now on Thursday afternoon,

00:02:29.960 it's Joe Biden isn't it and if I'd had to put money on it before election day I'd have said

00:02:35.660 Joe Biden but I would have been terrified out of my life that I was going to lose that money and

00:02:41.260 when it looked like at one point in the early hours of Wednesday morning that Donald Trump was

00:02:45.520 going to win I have to say I was the least surprised person on the planet. And Julia why

00:02:50.440 is it that in particular the liberals they don't seem to be learning their lessons it's time and

00:02:56.720 time again. It's the election of Donald Trump, or it's Brexit, or it's Jeremy Corbyn losing to

00:03:02.320 Theresa May, the loss of the Red Wall. Why are they not learning the lessons?

00:03:07.380 They're not learning the lessons because their view is, and we know this all the way along from 1.00

00:03:12.540 Brexit in 2016 onwards, is that they fundamentally think that the voters are stupid. Everyone other 1.00

00:03:18.800 than them, you know, God forbid, people who don't even have a university degree. We've had that 1.00

00:03:24.100 snotty attitude uh since the 23rd of june 2016 haven't we um and and their view is that you know

00:03:30.760 it's like hillary clinton and the deplorables who voted for donald trump they despise ordinary 1.00

00:03:36.260 people they think they're not as good as they are they think they're uneducated idiot racist 1.00

00:03:43.240 nasty people who who need to be told what to do and who need to be educated in what the right 1.00

00:03:49.820 thing is to think and when you start from that attitude you're going to find it impossible to 0.96

00:03:55.520 understand people's point of view now I grew up on the liberal left I'm constantly told I'm a

00:04:01.060 right winger I don't think I'm right wing I think I'm right I mean these liberals I mean these are

00:04:07.580 the people that think someone is far right I've had that people use that term about me they think

00:04:12.700 these people are far right because they think maybe it's not a good idea to have hundreds of

00:04:18.020 thousands of of migrants uh coming to the country and and even illegal immigrants coming on boats

00:04:23.420 across you know from france or or from mexico into america um they think these are terribly

00:04:29.040 terribly extremist views when they're not as we know these are incredibly mainstream views and i

00:04:35.280 think the reason why you know the liberal liberals sort of wokeocracy in america and in britain have

00:04:40.760 so many similarities they have the same attitude towards voters in that way but they also they

00:04:45.900 don't get it it's not how they think they don't understand that people think that way they don't

00:04:49.920 know why they think that way they they think it's impossible to comprehend why anyone would vote for

00:04:55.720 Donald Trump or or would vote for Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson and and that's because always they

00:05:01.720 don't want to listen to what those people are saying and what those people are saying is we

00:05:07.140 don't want to be patronized by you lot anymore we'd like to be free to live our own lives and

00:05:11.740 make our own choices and run our own businesses and do what we want to do without you interfering

00:05:17.360 nanny state in our lives. And that's just a message that the liberal left are just

00:05:23.380 unprepared to hear. They've just put their fingers in their ears for four odd years

00:05:27.860 and they're going to keep doing it. I don't think there's going to be a single Democrat

00:05:32.120 who, even when Joe Biden is being inaugurated and Donald Trump is still shouting from the

00:05:39.200 sidelines on Twitter about how he's been, you know, defrauded of a second term. The fact that

00:05:46.700 Donald Trump got three million more votes than he got in 2016, despite everything he has said and

00:05:53.940 done and tweeted since 2016, not a single Democrat is going to learn that lesson and think,

00:06:00.500 maybe we are not actually putting out a message that can reach middle America. And I think the

00:06:06.800 Labour Party, exactly the same in the UK. They are going to lose election after election after

00:06:12.100 election. And at no point are they going to say, maybe it's not them that's the problem. Maybe it's

00:06:17.660 us. Julie, you know, one of the interesting points you bring up there is that there's been a sort of

00:06:23.200 narrative that essentially the future is left in the sense that the demographics of the United

00:06:28.120 States and the UK are changing in such a way that essentially will become harder and harder for

00:06:33.200 right-wing parties to win. One of the things we saw with this election is actually Donald Trump

00:06:37.960 increased his vote share with everyone except white men, which seems to shatter that whole

00:06:43.280 narrative. It's something we've been talking about on the show for quite some time. On the

00:06:47.120 wall behind us, we've got pictures of our former guests, several people of color there who are

00:06:51.460 very critical of woke politics, the way that the left has shifted over the years. Do you think

00:06:57.380 this election signifies a shift in that sort of narrative as well well i mean one would hope so

00:07:03.240 again i find it very i think i think very sinister uh and unpleasant that people will talk about you

00:07:09.720 know the latino vote the african-american vote the even the women's vote i the idea that you 0.91

00:07:15.940 should be voting because of i don't know having fallopian tubes or testicles a particular shade

00:07:22.560 of your skin i think is really quite a bizarre idea um obviously it wasn't a surprise to me 0.91

00:07:27.980 again that you know really african-americans evangelical christians um very much more on

00:07:33.260 the conservative right in terms of a lot of their values um we're talking about latinos again 0.67

00:07:38.840 the catholic very much on the conservative right this notion that the democrats have got the you

00:07:44.580 know the black and the ethnic minority votes they're theirs they're theirs they're theirs not 0.83

00:07:49.220 because they're the right representatives for them but they're theirs by right they own those

00:07:53.840 votes and the criticism they give of the of those who don't conform the attacks on on women

00:08:01.300 republicans uh and a you know latino or black republicans or gay republicans it is are off the 0.98

00:08:09.500 scale compared with those on say white male republicans and we see the same in the in the 0.75

00:08:14.560 UK as well I mean the this Margaret Thatcher not included and I remember a guardian list of

00:08:20.360 the 100 most influential women we didn't include Margaret bloody Thatcher the first female prime

00:08:28.100 minister and regarded widely I mean I didn't you know I would I wouldn't have voted for I was she

00:08:33.460 was far too right-wing for me when am I in my teens and 20s but I mean the idea that she shouldn't be

00:08:39.100 on that list in i don't know top three is absurd but she's just discounted because she's not a

00:08:44.660 proper woman because she's on the right and we've had the same with theresa may we've had the same 0.91

00:08:48.740 with um ethnic minorities in the cabinet rishi sunak as chancellor priti patel uh and the

00:08:54.200 before him and priti patel as home secretary well they don't count i mean they're i mean they've got

00:08:59.980 darker skin but they're not really ethnic minorities because they've got the wrong 0.99

00:09:04.040 political views. And again, it's the liberal left not getting it. You don't bloody own a vote because

00:09:10.440 of the colour of someone's skin. And they're going to have to get used to that. But Julia,

00:09:14.420 I don't think they're going to get used to that. And do you think there's going to be this attitude

00:09:17.980 amongst the liberal left? Let's say Biden does win. We've solved the problem. We're never going

00:09:23.460 to face it again. And we're all going to go back on as we used to be. Yeah, see, we got it right.

00:09:28.680 yeah exactly um i think yes they're an awful lot who who uh who are not going to as i say they're

00:09:34.080 not going to get the real message there um i mean yes again the democrats have won the popular vote

00:09:40.780 in the united states whatever happens in the final few states the battleground states that

00:09:44.920 are going to declare they will have won the popular vote is it seven times out of the last

00:09:48.920 eight elections and and not very often actually getting the white house as a result but they are

00:09:53.780 going to have to understand that you need to have a sort of coalition you can't just win with you

00:09:57.440 know the east coast and the west coast and and certain ethnic minorities or the young who largely

00:10:02.940 don't go out and vote you are going to need to bring along you know all those middle states

00:10:08.120 as well and it's the it's the attitude it's not that sort of oh look they're never going to vote

00:10:14.280 for us it's we don't care almost whether they vote for us or not and that I think is a very

00:10:19.600 strange attitude because that you know there are many millions more of these people as we've seen

00:10:26.060 in the the rust belt you know that they are now the deciders of the elections we know how new

00:10:30.660 york's going to vote and how california is going to vote it's those uh swing states where it really

00:10:35.120 matters um again i just don't see the democrats once they're in office realizing what's gone wrong

00:10:41.860 and bearing in mind that even biden wins and then you know maybe after a year or two he stands down

00:10:48.500 through ill health kamala harris is president you still got a lame duck presidency the republicans

00:10:54.080 going to keep control of the senate um they've got they've got huge control for decades ahead

00:10:59.400 of the supreme court a six to three conservative majority um it doesn't matter who's in the white

00:11:06.340 house to a certain extent for quite a long time the agenda's been set for decades ahead and

00:11:10.820 the democrats it's their fault they did that they they created donald trump in the same way

00:11:19.140 The left, Tony Blair and Blairism, they created Nigel Farage and ultimately Boris Johnson's premiership.

00:11:29.000 If they don't like it, well, they should look at themselves in the mirror first.

00:11:34.200 Yeah, they're very good at that, aren't they?

00:11:38.060 But were you keen to carry on with the election?

00:11:40.320 Yeah, there was one thing that I really wanted to touch on.

00:11:42.960 And for me, we always seem to, you know, never get into what this attitude actually is.

00:11:49.220 And for me, it's contempt of white working class people.

00:11:52.540 That's what it is.

00:11:54.300 That is, it is.

00:11:55.260 It's exactly, it's exactly what it is.

00:11:57.460 And it's funny because it seems to have wavered from the sort of the, the sort of, oh, the worker.

00:12:04.380 Oh, these fine, the miners, the, you know, how wonderful the factory workers and being raised with gung ho to now these ghastly, ghastly,

00:12:12.960 people who who are you know they're neanderthals they they just drink beer and and mutter about

00:12:18.880 immigrants in their working men's clubs i mean this is actually the most the only sort of

00:12:24.400 working class people that that most of these sort of islingtonite labour people come across

00:12:28.420 is their cab driver you know these people always go oh my cab driver today said is that literally

00:12:32.720 the only person who hasn't got a law degree that you've spoken to this month it's really really

00:12:37.860 strange a lot of them are just totally it's just totally out of touch but if you're going around

00:12:43.140 despising a large amount of your electorate you've got a problem and i mean and again and i think it's

00:12:49.600 on both sides of the atlantic this idea that you know that white working class men in particular

00:12:55.460 have got this incredible this magical privilege that they're born with you know even on a housing

00:13:01.920 estate you know in in in in you know the east end of london or or in the or in in middlesbrough or

00:13:09.580 stoke-on-trait and the idea that you are born with this innate privilege because you're a white man

00:13:14.600 well you know what tell that to them when they're down the job center tell that to them then when

00:13:19.260 they've got two you know grade dgcses uh from the rubbish schools that they've gone to i mean it's 0.90

00:13:24.460 an absolute load of nonsense and if you don't understand your voters and you don't like your 0.97

00:13:29.560 voters and you don't respect your voters, you can't really be surprised when they feel the same way

00:13:35.280 back. It's such a good point, because I think a lot of people respect someone who disagrees with

00:13:40.600 them, honestly, on an issue of policy. But it's the contempt that we've seen over the last four

00:13:46.440 years that I think is the driving factor behind it. But let's move on a little bit, Julia. You

00:13:51.340 mentioned that a lot of people you feel are not fans of the nanny state, are not fans of being

00:13:57.480 told how to run their business are not fans of being told how to live where to go what to do

00:14:03.360 well what i put it to you that we're now in a position where the government has gone quite

00:14:07.620 beyond that and they're now telling us not to run a business not to go out not to do this

00:14:11.680 it's an issue you've been hammering quite for some time now so for people who haven't been

00:14:16.340 watching your brilliant shows every morning what is your view of lockdown broadway's smash hit the

00:14:22.360 neil diamond musical a beautiful noise is coming to toronto the true story of a kid from brooklyn

00:14:28.420 destined for something more featuring all the songs you love including america forever in blue

00:14:33.760 jeans and sweet caroline like jersey boys and beautiful the next musical mega hit is here

00:14:39.660 the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise april 28th through june 7th 2026 the princess of wales

00:14:46.740 Theatre. Get tickets at murvish.com. I think it's insane. I think it's morally corrupt, insane

00:14:54.920 madness. And I think that the Conservative Party are going to rue the day that they did this. And

00:15:01.900 again, that's another big lesson for the American election. On the day, on the exit polls, when

00:15:07.280 voters were asked, what is it that most concerned them? Number one, wasn't coronavirus. It wasn't

00:15:12.160 the handling of the pandemic. It was the economy. It comes back to that Clinton life. It's the

00:15:16.380 economy stupid um there is no need to have a lockdown for health reasons infection rates are 1.00

00:15:22.580 are not exponentially rising i'm not saying it's not my opinion i'm not an epidemiologist or a 0.99

00:15:27.720 statistician but i don't i'll follow quite a few who are actually doing that and looking at the

00:15:32.360 official data that's in the public domain and it tells us quite clearly across loads of different

00:15:37.600 formats that uh the there is no big rise in infection rates in the elderly or the young

00:15:43.440 anymore and sort of two percent increase in the last week just two percent i mean got nothing like

00:15:49.320 the sort of exponential rising doubling every four days that we were seeing back in march that

00:15:53.700 justified the first lockdown which i absolutely did support we had a new disease didn't know what

00:15:58.200 on earth was going on didn't know what the death rate was absolutely terrifying you know let's just

00:16:01.920 build up capacity you know flatten the curve and then we'll know where we are months and months

00:16:07.700 later of course we know that actually infection rate went down two weeks before we went into

00:16:12.440 lockdown the death rate was going down before we went into lockdown it wasn't really necessary

00:16:16.120 voluntary measures would have been sufficient and as we've seen from sweden as well so going

00:16:22.640 into a second lockdown when we are looking at normal seasonal increases in respiratory illnesses

00:16:29.220 10 percent less than 10 percent of beds in the nhs are currently being occupied by covid patients

00:16:34.400 and most of those are not people who have got covid and they're ill there in in hospital because

00:16:40.100 they have covid they have simply tested positive for covid covid is now endemic in our hospitals

00:16:44.620 most of the infections now are happening in our hospitals which is exactly what happened back in

00:16:50.400 march as well um so um i think it's an insane policy i think the cost to the economy uh is

00:16:56.580 going to be just off the scale the numbers are just silly silly they're not telephone number

00:17:02.360 numbers they're international including the dialing code telephone number um but but also

00:17:07.920 crucially people have made this a battle about healthy wealth or lives versus livelihoods as if

00:17:15.040 someone losing a business that they've spent 20 years building up doesn't really matter as if

00:17:20.660 someone losing their job that they've done for 20 30 years or even a year doesn't really matter as

00:17:26.500 if kids not getting a proper education well it's only a few months doesn't really matter

00:17:30.820 this stuff matters it matters to those individuals to their families to their children people losing

00:17:36.980 jobs often end up losing their homes they end up losing their marriages the children have to leave

00:17:42.200 their schools because they have to move we end up with higher rates of suicide higher rates of ill

00:17:46.380 health the children's outcomes over their entire lives are hugely affected by this we know people

00:17:52.540 aren't getting treated for cancer not getting treated for heart disease uh we know that we've

00:17:56.400 got tens and tens of thousands of patients in hospital elderly people in their 70s 80s and 90s

00:18:01.860 dementia who have no contact with their loved ones with their families in person or unable to

00:18:07.660 understand you know how to converse with them uh on an ipad as the government seems to suggest they

00:18:13.000 can i think this is an absolute disaster uh economically health-wise physically and mentally

00:18:20.720 and i think when history judges this and when the public inquiry uh it judges this um i i think

00:18:30.060 heads will roll i i think i think this is borderline criminal what we are doing to our

00:18:34.920 country what we're doing so julia let me ask you then because you're intelligent sorry is that

00:18:40.340 no no that's great it's something uh francis and i've been talking about on this show for some time

00:18:45.620 but uh you know you're an intelligent woman between the two of us we're probably about as

00:18:50.080 intelligent as you so the three of us can see it uh why is it that the government who i assume i

00:18:56.860 know some of the people who work in government i imagine some of them are intelligent people

00:19:00.660 why are they doing this god if i knew and you know i'm lucky enough to sort of have you know

00:19:07.060 the the mobile numbers for for most of the cabinet and can text them i don't think they

00:19:11.100 haven't been getting texts from me there are some the likes of you know the chancellor rishi

00:19:15.720 sinak that they absolutely do get it he can read a spreadsheet he knows what he's doing

00:19:19.940 he's looked at the numbers he's looked at the data and he can see that this isn't the right

00:19:25.020 thing to be doing not just for the economy but but for the health of the the nation as well in

00:19:28.600 terms of how many lives will be saved in the long run and which lives are going to be saved

00:19:32.480 um i think that boris johnson i know we say he doesn't do detail um i think he's clever enough

00:19:38.460 he's an old enough and ugly enough to know that what he's doing isn't right and certainly sir 1.00

00:19:43.800 patrick valance and chris witty the chief uh scientific advisor and chief medical officer

00:19:48.540 of this country of england certainly they absolutely know they absolutely 100 know what

00:19:54.320 they're doing now I watched that press conference on the Saturday night when we just had the last

00:19:58.580 minute press conference hours and hours uh after it was supposed to have happened telling us that

00:20:02.800 we were going to go into lockdown I mean I have to say I watched it on the Sunday because I decided

00:20:05.960 to drink through it on the Saturday night I was bugging if I was going to have my Saturday night

00:20:11.860 room by them as well as the rest of the next month but um watched it the next morning it was really

00:20:16.620 obvious to me that those two men felt very uncomfortable in what they were saying and that

00:20:21.860 4,000 deaths a day, again, they never say it's a prediction, do they? They always say, you know,

00:20:28.120 it's a scenario. Well, if that's the one scenario you choose to use, then you're choosing that

00:20:34.560 deliberately and knowingly. Now, when Boris Johnson used that scenario, I mean, he's got

00:20:39.780 Patrick Vallance and Ritty standing next to him, and the three of them together, the three sort of

00:20:45.400 horsemen of the apocalypse, you know, you're assuming that, you know, if they don't go,

00:20:49.340 oh actually that's wrong prime minister that they are they are validating what he's got to say

00:20:54.180 now we knew on sunday that that four thousand a day deaths which which would have been by the way

00:21:00.200 you know four times the work we saw on our worst days in april would have been a higher death toll

00:21:05.560 per day than brazil india or any other country that had a terrible death and didn't even have

00:21:11.220 a lockdown i mean off the scale ridiculous nonsense nonsense scenario we knew that that

00:21:17.860 had been debunked on Sunday no question at all on the maths it's not a question of opinion on the

00:21:23.200 maths that was a three-week-old bit of data and it was looking at the scenarios with certain

00:21:28.140 ridiculous assumptions in and it had predicted that by that weekend last weekend we would have

00:21:32.760 had a thousand deaths a day by then when we were having roughly 200 so we already knew it was wrong

00:21:37.740 and they had since that had been published a few days earlier they had actually already published

00:21:42.720 a subsequent piece of data with a far far lower more realistic desktop and yet Boris Johnson

00:21:48.640 Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance chose to use that information and the Prime Minister used it

00:21:54.420 again in the House of Commons on Monday. Now I don't think it's possible that they didn't know

00:21:59.980 it was untrue. I don't think it is possible that they thought that was a valid number and that

00:22:04.680 number was used to scare us. Why do they want to scare us? I think because they know that the actual

00:22:11.640 numbers that are available publicly available on public health england nhs england government

00:22:16.500 websites aren't scary at all they are showing infection rates in around the country are going

00:22:21.620 down where they're not going down they are they are going up at a much much slower rate i mean

00:22:26.700 really really slowing down many parts of the country that have been hardest hit they are

00:22:30.220 leveling off even in liverpool with the hardest one of those hardest hit areas no question at all

00:22:35.760 the um the hospitalization icu infection rates are all going down so they must know this because

00:22:45.400 i'm not an expert and i know this and it's not because someone who works in a you in a hospital

00:22:50.520 unit is telling me the official national figures collated by the estate tells us this so something

00:22:59.180 is going on and and and i for the life of me i've never been a conspiracy theorist in my life but

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00:24:18.000 But the problem, isn't it as well, Julia,

00:24:20.020 is that we've effectively got a one-party state

00:24:23.020 because the Conservatives are putting forward this

00:24:25.280 and Labour are backing them.

00:24:27.400 Well, no, Labour aren't backing them.

00:24:29.200 Labour want it to be sooner, harder, longer, deeper.

00:24:33.140 There is no lockdown.

00:24:35.980 They don't want to pornogrify by this nation.

00:24:41.180 Right.

00:24:41.940 But that's a real problem for democracy, isn't it?

00:24:44.660 Because when you've got a lockdown about, well, it's just been unleashed,

00:24:49.740 and what's happened to a lot of people,

00:24:52.660 and they're going to lose their jobs,

00:24:54.600 their health is going to be affected, mental health,

00:24:56.940 it seems nobody's standing up for them.

00:24:59.200 No, well, I'm going to have to say, we at Talk Radio are trying very hard to do so.

00:25:03.380 And what's interesting is all of the presenters have sort of come to this conclusion completely separately.

00:25:09.000 We've never had a meeting. We've never been told to say it.

00:25:11.520 On the contrary, I think quite a lot of people are in charge of that.

00:25:14.360 Guys, can you run it in a bit? But we are all so passionate about this because we're clever enough and sensible enough to look at the actual numbers.

00:25:21.620 I'm a political editor for 10 years of a national newspaper.

00:25:24.540 I know what I'm being lied to, but I know what I'm being lied to by a government minister or advisor.

00:25:30.320 I really do. I mean, we've got Nigel Farage, the Brexit party.

00:25:35.460 They've said they're going to relaunch as reform UK, which is all very well,

00:25:39.860 except, of course, we don't have a general election until 2024.

00:25:44.520 Got local elections. We assume they're not going to be cancelled again in 2021 in May.

00:25:49.800 And they say they're going to stand in those.

00:25:51.380 Now, that may focus a few minds when it comes to particularly the Conservatives who voted for this, but certainly not the Labour Party.

00:25:59.260 They love it. They think that that will just take Tory votes. 0.98

00:26:04.980 This is the issue. Even the MPs I've spoken to on and off air who are saying, why are you voting for this lockdown?

00:26:11.900 Why do you think there should be one? And they'll say, you hear it again and again, I do it with a heavy heart.

00:26:17.320 um i wouldn't be willing to vote for another one if on december the second you know they want to go

00:26:22.400 into another one another lockdown i would not be willing to vote for that but you know we're going

00:26:26.020 to come out on december the second to into tier three which is pretty much a lockdown to intents

00:26:30.900 and purposes um and and and they they keep saying that well you know i'm just not sure about things

00:26:38.140 now well i keep saying well let me send you let me send you the information that you can then be

00:26:43.280 sure about and it's not some it's not some random on twitter who's sending this stuff i'm talking

00:26:48.660 about you know uh conversations with professor carl hennigan the professor of evidence-based

00:26:54.000 medicine of oxford university he's not a crank he's one of the most eminent in his field and he

00:27:00.620 is tearing his hair out um not wanting to get involved in the politics but sort of can we just

00:27:06.480 he doesn't i don't care what the policy is but can it be based on the facts as opposed to spin

00:27:12.300 that's all he wants. And that's all I think we all want. It is what we want, Julia. But you

00:27:16.640 mentioned December the 2nd, which is formally when this lockdown is supposed to end. Do you

00:27:22.640 think there's any chance of it ending on December the 2nd at all? Well, the legislation that was

00:27:28.720 voted for by MPs, although not by 38 MPs who voted against it and 60 who abstained, heroes all,

00:27:34.780 by the way, history will judge them very kindly. The legislation automatically falls on that day.

00:27:41.300 um that was the only way i think getting that through it depends what's happening doesn't it

00:27:45.800 with the r rate and with infection rates we know there's a time lag in terms of death

00:27:49.300 if you are testing every single person who comes into hospital and if you've got a a pcr test for

00:27:55.680 covid which is is so um it's just i'm trying to think of the correct word here but it so useless

00:28:03.540 frankly that it will pick up um the remains of a viral infection from six months ago um when you're

00:28:10.360 not even infectious at all and it's certainly not causing you any illness then i'm afraid you know

00:28:14.200 we're probably not going to see those death rates going down because right now i mean if i get i i

00:28:19.620 had the i had the virus back in march who knows maybe i would test positive uh in in a pcr test

00:28:25.120 for covid right now if i get hit by a bus uh tomorrow i go into hospital and while i'm being

00:28:30.600 treated they test me and i come up positive for covid and i then die i will be in those daily

00:28:35.260 statistics a couple of days later as a covid death i mean that is how insane our our statistics

00:28:42.340 are right now um so i'm i'm not confident that the numbers are going to look sufficiently low

00:28:49.480 by december the 2nd the the government's going to feel they can they can you know release us

00:28:54.700 back into the wild but julia sorry to interrupt i mean it's a problem of the public because i

00:29:00.640 have people tweeting me all the time saying one death is too many no it isn't is it one death

00:29:06.480 isn't too many the death of a 95 year old who's been in a care room for two years and has been

00:29:11.460 bedridden with dementia who has had on off respiratory diseases and got six other underlying

00:29:17.020 conditions dying of covid a couple of months earlier than they would it's tragic for their

00:29:21.880 family but the idea that we should shut down the country because of that is absurd 1700 people die

00:29:29.080 every single day in this country. COVID ain't even in the top 10 killers, right? Even right now,

00:29:35.400 while we've got apparently a COVID crisis and a second wave, we have got to get this in perspective.

00:29:40.340 And I think the British public need a little bit of education about, you know, how many people

00:29:45.560 die every single day when we don't have a pandemic. Julia, just very quickly on that point

00:29:50.820 about the extension of the lockdown. I mean, I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth if I

00:29:55.780 say that you believe the government have already been lying to us about the figures right so what's

00:30:01.780 to stop them doing it again i what's the incentive for them not to lie to us again i just don't see

00:30:06.320 it this this is the thing i i'm i'm question what their incentive is right now as i say i'm not a

00:30:11.620 conspiracy theorist at all i'm a cock-up theorist the thing is a very accurate representation

00:30:18.080 and yes prime minister very accurate representations of how things do work in

00:30:22.160 government rather than big conspiracies behind the scenes that russians or or whatever um i i think a

00:30:28.900 lot of this is about frankly arse covering um we are talking about we've you know a higher per capita

00:30:33.620 death rate than a lot of other countries that's actually got very little to do with government

00:30:38.000 policy and dates and kinds of lockdown it's more to do with our demographics uh the you know the

00:30:42.740 obesity the ethnic minority population big cities having a major you know big hub airport like

00:30:48.460 Heathrow all of those other reasons and why that's probably happened but I think there is a real

00:30:53.220 feeling that the public inquiry is going to be very very harsh in a couple of years time and

00:30:57.200 people are starting to cover their backs and when you've got the likes of Keir Starmer and others

00:31:00.680 saying oh all these people are dying isn't this terrible isn't this terrible there is a rush to

00:31:04.940 be seen to be doing something doesn't matter what it is do something and I think the idea has been

00:31:13.220 all along we'll do a lockdown we'll do another new set of measures and then at the time when

00:31:19.440 infection rates will be going down anyway we will we'll come out and it'll look better and then

00:31:24.960 we'll have Christmas because the Prime Minister knows well there's not a chance in hell that he's

00:31:30.680 going to be able to keep to lockdown even the rule of six for most families on Christmas Day

00:31:36.120 I haven't met a single person who has the tiniest ink of a plan to keep to that rule.

00:31:43.480 So we're going to have to be out of lockdown by Christmas Day.

00:31:45.860 We're going to have to be out of rule of six, at least for a few days over Christmas,

00:31:49.100 because you cannot have a law which, you know, 60 odd million people break on one day, 0.98

00:31:54.900 because that makes the law look like the ass it really is. 0.87

00:31:58.600 That's my only hope that we will come out of it.

00:32:01.480 But the fact that Rishi Sunak, the Chancellor, this morning has announced an extension of the furlough,

00:32:05.980 scheme to march. I mean, what do you need a furlough scheme to march for? If we're coming

00:32:14.160 back out on December the 2nd would be my first question. Do you have a business? Do you want to

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00:32:28.780 Well, how about you advertise with Trigonometry? We have over 200,000 subscribers across the

00:32:35.260 different platforms we sometimes get up to three million views a month for our videos and it's a

00:32:40.040 great opportunity to showcase your product so if you want your product or business to stand out

00:32:45.320 amidst all the nonsense that is happening drop us a line at marketing at triggerpod.co.uk

00:32:53.540 that's marketing at triggerpod.co.uk and we will do our very best to help your product stand out

00:33:01.060 and when we say stand out what we really mean is get cancelled

00:33:04.060 and julia don't you think in a way that the this entire coronavirus crisis is a sort of the new

00:33:13.460 brexit isn't it it's divided people we've even got epithets being held covidiots i think is is

00:33:19.500 is the term being used for people who are skeptical about lockdown i thought the virus

00:33:24.360 was meant to bring us together and i have to say i mean i say i was ill with the virus i caught the

00:33:30.140 virus on the 14th i know i know which which event i caught it at and i was ill by the by the 16th

00:33:35.800 of march so a week before we went into formal lockdown and i'm sick as a dog for three weeks

00:33:40.160 and um i know it's not a hoax i know it's real um one of the things i kind of did hope though

00:33:45.580 after all the divisions over brexit and 2019 i mean that was i was worse than 2016 in terms of

00:33:51.880 those divisions um in terms of getting that through in the election and jeremy corbyn and

00:33:56.200 the anti-Semitism I mean there was so much horrible stuff around and I did think in March you know

00:34:00.820 what there's one good thing that's going to come out of this it's going to bring the country

00:34:04.720 together first we've got a real problem and we can all unite about what the real problem is

00:34:08.940 and second you know we you know we're all in this together you know I love the announcements

00:34:13.420 Rishi Sunak made about you know the help the business the furlough scheme and yet taxes are

00:34:17.660 going to go sky high but you know what we are all in it together and and since then it really doesn't

00:34:22.680 it's really really has changed and it doesn't feel like that at all and it's fascinating because you

00:34:27.540 say how much the dividing line actually an awful lot of it has come down uh on very similar lines

00:34:34.340 to the remain leave debate and i think a lot of that is down to two things one um private sector

00:34:40.620 v public sector um and two middle class uh v working class because if your experience of

00:34:46.440 lockdown is uh you get to keep your job or you're an 80 percent pay and furlough and you've got a

00:34:51.820 nice home and a garden and your kids are at a half decent school where they provided lessons

00:34:55.660 and you got to spend some lovely afternoons in the park over the summer probably not that worried

00:35:01.340 about lockdowns if however you're in the private sector or you're living you know three kids and

00:35:06.100 you in a in a block of flats uh in in the city with no outdoor space you're going to feel rather

00:35:11.180 differently about it and i think the public sector private sector divide very much and working class

00:35:16.600 middle class divide very much in evidence on brexit as well and i think we are yeah we're

00:35:21.660 back into that territory yet again and and do you think as well i thought i just find myself so

00:35:29.120 worried about the economy and the long-term implications of it we don't seem to be discussing

00:35:34.760 it all that much and how we're my show we discuss it every but but why is it why is it that your

00:35:42.940 show is one of the few places that it's being discussed and it's not a bigger issue because a

00:35:47.400 lot of people are going to come back after furlough and their jobs or even certain industries dare I

00:35:52.260 say might not even exist anymore I mean leisure industry travel industry tourism industry

00:35:57.400 pubs restaurants film theatre I was doing a BBC show this morning politics live after my radio

00:36:06.860 show and and they were talking everyone was talking about the furlough scheme and oh 80%

00:36:10.760 and wasn't that better than 67% for tier three

00:36:13.500 in terms of helping people on their wages? 0.99

00:36:15.900 And I was sitting there thinking, you're all insane.

00:36:19.020 And I said, you know, most people can't live on 80% of their pay.

00:36:22.020 They struggled through in the first lockdown.

00:36:25.380 And by the way, they didn't have to have the heating on

00:36:26.860 during that lockdown, did they?

00:36:28.020 Because it was all lovely and sunny, wasn't it?

00:36:29.860 And also, you know what, it's only for three weeks

00:36:31.680 and then it's only for like another three

00:36:33.520 and then another three and it's only for a bit.

00:36:35.200 But we'll all cope, we're all in it together, all of that.

00:36:38.580 but people people you know they've used up their savings they've you know the middle classes are 1.00

00:36:43.900 like well we've all done very nicely out of it because we haven't spent so much on foreign

00:36:47.180 holidays and we've barely gone out to restaurants so frankly we've got more money than we normally

00:36:51.740 have well bloody bully for you but millions of people haven't and there are millions of 0.54

00:36:56.680 small business people they they have worked for 20 30 years to build up their businesses

00:37:01.760 and they're just gone now and offering people um you know 80 percent of their pay and this is by

00:37:07.360 they're only up to 30 grand. Well, OK, that's average earnings in this country. But if your

00:37:11.800 mortgage and your outgoings are based on more than that, you're going to be in very, very tight

00:37:16.560 financial circumstances very quickly. So the idea you can pay these people's wages and everything

00:37:22.260 will be fine. And somehow at some point in December or January or March, they'll just go

00:37:27.640 back to their full time job. Well, we already know that's not what happens because it wasn't what

00:37:31.960 happened after the the first lockdown people didn't go out come out of lockdown and then just

00:37:37.020 go straight back to the shops and straight back to the restaurants and the bars and back to work

00:37:41.400 the government was virtually begging people to get back to work and that was in the summer what are

00:37:47.060 the chances of getting them to go back to work in the middle of winter in the rain and the sleet and

00:37:51.160 the cold um you can put these jobs on furlough schemes as much as you want the question is

00:37:57.280 is there a job at the end of it and and i i spoke to the uh paul johnson the director of the

00:38:02.800 institute for fiscal studies today the very eminent independent respected economic think

00:38:06.880 tag and um and i asked him how bad would it be how bad would the second lockdown be would it

00:38:12.700 be better or worse and he said well it won't be the worst thing that's happened ever

00:38:18.020 it won't be the worst thing that happened ever since the black death which is what the first 1.00

00:38:27.180 lockdown was but it may well be the second and that was the cheeriest thing he could say so all 0.99

00:38:34.900 these frankly idiots mps and others who think that it's just for a month it's a circuit breaker like 1.00

00:38:43.060 a there isn't such a thing as a circuit breaker for a virus all you do is push the deaths later 1.00

00:38:47.340 world health organization has been telling everyone that for months but people only listen

00:38:51.080 when they're saying something they want to hear um so we won't have any lives saved more than we

00:38:55.900 would otherwise we'll just push those deaths a little bit further on um but we will see millions

00:39:01.040 of jobs and tens of thousands of businesses go under i mean if people like marks and spencers 0.98

00:39:06.320 can't make a profit john lewis start laying off people even sainsbury's they laid the supermarkets

00:39:12.080 the one set of shops that have been open throughout all this they've laid off three and a half thousand

00:39:17.660 staff this morning now if supermarkets are laying off staff how on earth do we think other businesses

00:39:24.440 are going to be able to keep going when they can't even open their doors this is the thing that really

00:39:28.900 bothers me about it julia because i fit very squarely into your middle class identify i had

00:39:34.800 the lockdown was very good for me i spent more time with my wife lovely walks all the rest of

00:39:39.820 it the government helping everybody but i don't understand the lack of critical thinking on on

00:39:45.180 the part of our politicians and media because as i look at it it's good for me but there's no

00:39:50.540 question that paying people not to work for the best part of a year is not a good long-term

00:39:56.060 strategy it's just not going to work economically why aren't more people talking about this in that

00:40:01.920 way i just don't get it i don't get it i mean if i'm gonna think you know bad thoughts about

00:40:07.580 ascribe bad motives i think that well i think the tory party don't get it and again they're

00:40:11.980 going to learn their lesson because i'm telling you in 2024 there are going to be very few people

00:40:16.840 who are going to be thinking about and worrying about the fact that way back in 2020 someone they

00:40:22.980 knew dentists um nieces grandmother who'd been in a care home for two years died a couple of months

00:40:29.820 earlier than she otherwise would have of covid that that's that's going to be the level most

00:40:34.280 people i mean i i have i've had a friend who died of covid or with covid uh rather than of um and

00:40:40.260 and uh i don't know other people who have so but but i'm i'm very much in a minority most people

00:40:45.020 won't know anyone who's died of covid or know anyone who knows anyone who's died of covid we

00:40:49.440 may actually put you know going on four years time but they will know people who've lost their jobs

00:40:53.960 it may be them it may be a family member they'll have um you know children uh who are in their

00:40:58.880 20s you still can't get a job since university uh there'll be people who've lost their businesses

00:41:03.220 there will still be boarded up shops on the high street they you know they'll be in far less choice

00:41:07.940 of say for instance even just things like foreign holidays the local pub will have closed and not

00:41:11.800 reopened they are going to see that and remember that and feel that now Tories should probably know

00:41:17.080 that right now because they're going to be the people who get blamed none of the Labour MPs who

00:41:21.420 voted for lockdown are going to get blamed because the Tories are the ones in power

00:41:24.400 for the Labour MPs of course it's not necessarily a bad thing they don't get blamed by for any of

00:41:31.060 the Covid deaths they don't get blamed for any of the other deaths people who don't get treated to

00:41:35.020 cancer Tories are responsible for the failures of the health service not them and they don't get

00:41:40.140 held responsible for any of the unemployment and any of the businesses that have gone under or

00:41:44.380 indeed any of the taxes which are inevitably going to go up and not just for the top five percent

00:41:50.900 there ain't enough of them they're going to go up for everybody across the board for decades and the

00:41:57.900 Labour Party can happily vote for these measures and say it should have been sooner it should have

00:42:01.540 been longer should have been harder should have been whatever they can do that as much as they

00:42:05.100 want. And they don't have to have any, there's no cost for them at all. And they will be reaping

00:42:10.980 the benefits of all the damage that is done. So I do wonder sometimes that Keir Starmer,

00:42:15.600 who's a very intelligent man, let's remember, that actually he knows exactly what he's doing

00:42:20.220 in calling for these measures. And it may not all be about a concern for life. And it may be

00:42:25.480 more about a concern for the next general election. And it seems what we're talking about

00:42:29.600 when we're talking about both the Conservative attitude to lockdown, but also the Labour attitude

00:42:33.960 to lockdown is that we're in a political crisis do you think we are i think we've been in a

00:42:39.300 political crisis for for a number of years don't you um with all this um i my i suppose we're not

00:42:47.700 in a political crisis in one way simply because right now the majority of the public according

00:42:52.120 to the polls um say that they support these measures but but if you say to someone everyone's

00:42:59.240 dying and you're going to die and your grand's gonna die and it's all awful but don't worry 0.82

00:43:03.460 will pay people 80% of their wages to not work and it'll be fine in a few months will you vote

00:43:07.760 for lockdown well of course they will why wouldn't you it sounds it sounds like a terrible situation

00:43:14.000 could be averted and there's not much cost um I think if people were given more of a nuanced

00:43:19.820 argument about what you know what the reality is of of the decisions that are currently being made

00:43:25.580 or what the costs are rather than just the benefits that we might save a few 85 year olds

00:43:30.620 next week from from dying of covid and i'm not being harsh i'm just being realistic there

00:43:34.600 i think they would feel very very differently well on the government's own estimates i mean

00:43:39.740 the government's own numbers project that the first lockdown may end up killing up to 200 000

00:43:44.960 people which many thousand excess deaths that are definitely non-covid related yeah right but but

00:43:51.000 over the next few years in terms of because cancer doesn't kill people immediately their estimates

00:43:55.880 are, the government's own figures are 200,000. Now, if this lockdown lasts as long as I think

00:44:00.860 it's going to last, which is until the end of March, quite possibly, maybe there'll be a break

00:44:04.600 for Christmas, you end up probably killing way more people than you've saved. And the difference

00:44:09.000 is, as you say, COVID is killing older people who may already have lots of other health issues,

00:44:14.680 but you're trading saving their lives for a few months for a father of three in his 40s that

00:44:19.620 doesn't get a cancer diagnosis. How does that make any sense? It's insane. Well, but I've had

00:44:23.960 people say to me and again not only every life matters well yes but you know we do make choices

00:44:28.380 i mean given a choice between saving my own life or saving my daughters i know which life i'm going

00:44:32.660 to save i'm going to make sure she's safe and it's what it's what we all do it's what human

00:44:37.780 beings do it's what the health service is what the government does every single day they choose

00:44:42.200 between lives people say you can't put a cost on a life oh that's exactly what nice the national

00:44:48.100 institute of clinical excellence does there i think it's about 230 000 pounds is the max they'll

00:44:52.300 pay for any life-saving drug um each one of those covid deaths has cost us all right probably about

00:44:57.520 a billion as far as i can tell doing the math um but this is this is the thing is it we are not for

00:45:04.120 the next five years going to have um newsreaders on the bbc and sky and itv every night at six

00:45:11.800 o'clock saying and now the latest deaths from heart disease and cancer as a result of the

00:45:18.160 lockdown in 2020. We're not going to see those figures. They're going to be hidden. They're

00:45:22.220 going to be wrapped up in all the other 1,600, 1,700 deaths every single day. It's not the same

00:45:29.060 as another 34 people have died of COVID. It's just not going to be noticed. It's going to be

00:45:34.940 written off. And it's only silly wonks like me who are going to look at those graphs that looks 0.99

00:45:39.400 at five-year averages and say, hold on a minute, we didn't actually see excess deaths in 2020, 0.90

00:45:45.580 but my god we're going to see them for the next few years and they're just not going to be on the

00:45:49.760 front page i mean it's very very upsetting what what we're talking about but we've been focusing

00:45:55.820 a lot on physical health we haven't really discussed mental health i remember reading

00:46:00.100 in a report from the office of national statistics it said that the rates of depression

00:46:03.560 literally doubled over lockdown yeah and it's and that is you know i think that's the very tip of

00:46:10.820 the iceberg yeah and i genuinely am of the view that we i think we've gone from a point where

00:46:15.820 people didn't talk about mental health at all to whilst also saying we should talk about mental

00:46:21.740 health i think you can't get it off my tv screen or my radio um i'm i'm largely of the view that

00:46:28.400 an awful lot of the normal human emotions um sadness grief um um you know anxiety that these

00:46:38.560 should not be classed as mental health problems if they are appropriate to the scenario if you've

00:46:44.280 been locked in your home on your own without a job without being able to see your family members

00:46:47.540 for a couple of months um the appropriate emotion i think would be sadness and anxiety and fear and

00:46:53.660 depression i don't think that's necessarily a mental health problem i think that's you being

00:46:57.060 sane frankly but no doubt at all london ambulance service i think they were saying something in the

00:47:01.900 region of 60 extra call-outs to either suicides or attempted suicides over the lockdown period

00:47:07.040 i think it's been absolutely devastating and i think particularly for younger people

00:47:10.680 i think the interesting thing is that we were all worried about older people not just for keeping

00:47:14.560 them physically alive because the risk to them from covid early on but also the idea we knew

00:47:18.800 you know we knew there were all these elderly people living alone um and i'm sure you like i

00:47:24.460 did you know i've got neighbors um who i just you know i knocked on the door i sent emails and

00:47:29.520 foot calls and i just want to check you're okay anything you need from the supermarket give me a

00:47:33.780 call if there's anything you need you know my husband's you know you can come and you know

00:47:37.280 lift things for you anything you need let us know and I've got elderly aunt in a care home and other

00:47:43.640 friends in their 70s regular calls to just check they're okay you know and um and like but I think

00:47:49.940 everyone did forget about young people I think I think people forgot how many young people live in

00:47:55.840 bedsits or flat shares with complete strangers um for you know for years and years on end a lot of

00:48:02.100 them in low-paid jobs which suddenly disappeared uh you know no money no outdoor space no family

00:48:10.000 support unit and and i think that has taken a terrible toll on people's mental health

00:48:14.980 julia you listed your uh you had your list of appropriate emotions there was one of them which

00:48:20.440 was missing which is anger oh and i wonder whether you feel that you know if we look at what happened

00:48:27.800 during the first lockdown obviously the killing of George Floyd and the explosion of protests as a

00:48:33.020 result of that and all of the stuff you know I've talked about it when you had me on your show but

00:48:37.200 but do you think we are going to see as a result of this particularly if it lasts beyond the 2nd

00:48:42.880 of December people stuck in their homes for months on end in winter it's dark it's raining

00:48:49.080 it's depressing and people increasingly frustrated about the future we may see do you feel we will

00:48:55.200 see social unrest of some kind i'd like to see people getting angry i don't want to see

00:49:00.320 but i think again as you say anger would be an appropriate response to that and again i you know

00:49:06.220 it's not just that it's not you know it's not uh it's not sunny and nice and relaxing well people

00:49:11.340 are now beginning to feel the sort of hold on a minute have i have i got a job to go back to

00:49:15.480 am i going to be able to get a job in the next few years i think the real concerns have come in

00:49:19.740 more doubts about whether all this this lockdown actually would work and save lives so you know

00:49:25.820 there may be a sacrifice as we had in March and April but we thought you know that's a sacrifice

00:49:29.540 to save hundreds of thousands of lives that that makes sense if it's not going to save lives and

00:49:34.980 may cost lives then you're sacrificing for nothing and that's a different issue also I mean

00:49:40.120 on a purely clear note you know I think there's not that much more to watch on Netflix I've seen

00:49:45.720 there's not a cupboard or a drawer a bit of paperwork in my home that has not been sorted

00:49:51.120 out I don't need to do any more but I think people are going to start saying hold on a minute

00:49:54.820 now what do we do um yeah I think people are going to start getting angry and I think those

00:49:59.700 polls are really going to turn very very quickly when people realize that um that this lockdown

00:50:06.940 you know is not is not what they thought it would be and phrases like circuit breaker there's no

00:50:13.360 circuit to break the virus is going to be sitting there this is like i'm just like going inside and

00:50:18.060 locking your door just sitting there and then coming out a month later going ta-da well the

00:50:23.140 monsters are still out there folks they haven't gone away um so if you are scared of the virus um

00:50:28.520 and then then you know you that that fear shouldn't shouldn't abate while you're on lockdown

00:50:33.440 um i i i would i would like there to be more um public protest but the important thing is it does

00:50:41.760 need to be it needs to be within the law um and and what you don't want is and i've not attended

00:50:47.560 any protest marches because i i can't trust that they're not going to turn violent i i don't want

00:50:53.080 to be at the same protest march as someone like david ike or people shouting oh it's russia or

00:50:58.440 it's a hoax it's not a hoax it's a real virus it kills real people um and we do need to be worried

00:51:04.900 and concerned about it i i wash my hands i do the social distancing i get it all i do get it um

00:51:10.400 But I would like it if just a load of other just ordinary thinking people would just look at the evidence, look at the actual evidence.

00:51:19.720 It's all available online. Don't trust the Russian bots on Twitter or anything like that. 0.98

00:51:24.800 But the actual evidence from the official data and can see that this is a travesty, this lockdown, it's a travesty.

00:51:35.080 And we talk a lot about the polls, about people being in favour of lockdown.

00:51:39.540 But I'll put this question to you.

00:51:41.280 The polls, they weren't particularly accurate with Brexit.

00:51:44.320 They weren't particularly accurate with the last two general elections.

00:51:47.320 And they certainly weren't accurate with the American election.

00:51:51.300 Are these ones accurate?

00:51:53.600 Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

00:51:54.880 I do ask around, everyone I know, I would say,

00:51:57.760 who do you know who supports the second lockdown?

00:52:00.360 Because so many people apparently do.

00:52:01.780 um i know i know one couple who do but there are a couple who frankly even the ruler six

00:52:07.200 wouldn't bother them they don't go out um i've got to be honest with you i mean i don't go to

00:52:13.060 the pub after 10 o'clock very often because i get up for work at 4 40 um but i'd like the pub to be

00:52:17.980 open for other people um i i think it's strange how many people are quite happy to take away other

00:52:22.840 people's freedoms ones that they don't use and say well this doesn't matter and again it's this

00:52:26.860 idea isn't it that oh well you know what your right to have a pint of 10 15 at night it doesn't

00:52:32.500 override the right of granny to live which is a nonsense thing to say utterly meaningless um but

00:52:38.320 but also it's not it's about the right of the person pulling the pint to still have a job and

00:52:42.260 pay their rent the next day i mean it's more more significant than that um yeah i i i think as we

00:52:48.460 know with polling you can get a 70 majority for anything if you ask it the right way um and and

00:52:54.800 And if the four questions you ask before the do you support lockdown are about losing your job,

00:53:02.340 are you willing to have a lockdown if it meant that you and your friends and family are highly likely to lose your job?

00:53:10.320 And even if you don't, that you will be paying much higher taxes for years to come to pay for all those who have lost their jobs and the furlough schemes and everything.

00:53:19.880 And it may not save a single life. Do you now support lockdown?

00:53:23.300 I don't think you get to 70% very quickly.

00:53:26.480 And also the other thing there is that there seems to be quite a significant inconsistency

00:53:30.140 between the number of people who apparently support lockdown

00:53:33.300 and then equally the number of people who say that they don't comply with lockdown themselves.

00:53:38.980 So there's a big gap.

00:53:40.800 Oh, no, that is perfectly consistent because everyone else is irresponsible.

00:53:45.440 But what you're doing is very sensible.

00:53:47.980 I couldn't agree with you more, Julia.

00:53:49.760 I am indeed very sensible.

00:53:51.060 It's no risk for me to see my brother or my best friend,

00:53:55.740 almost because we're being sensible. 0.97

00:53:57.380 Those other people over there, they're granny killers. 1.00

00:54:00.500 And people ascribe, you know, negative emotions 0.92

00:54:03.980 about other people breaking exactly the same rules they're breaking.

00:54:06.900 I can honestly tell you, other than this couple I'm thinking of,

00:54:10.660 I don't know anybody, anybody at all who is sticking

00:54:14.060 to the letter of the rules currently.

00:54:15.440 And I mean that from tier one to tier two, three, and the lockdown.

00:54:19.920 Not a single person.

00:54:21.060 Well, there you go, Julie.

00:54:21.980 The police now know who to arrest.

00:54:24.280 All of my friends, yeah.

00:54:25.380 All of you and your friends.

00:54:26.620 That's exactly it.

00:54:27.540 I didn't say I was on the break.

00:54:31.180 I have the misfortune of being enough above the parapet

00:54:34.960 that I've got to stick to the letter.

00:54:37.820 That's fair enough.

00:54:38.720 Julie, listen, we know you've been broadcasting

00:54:40.820 for about six hours straight today.

00:54:43.640 Thank you.

00:54:44.120 You still can't shut me up.

00:54:46.340 Thank you so much for coming on.

00:54:47.900 We'd love to have you back when all this craziness is over in studio.

00:54:51.060 and we can chat about some other more interesting things.

00:54:54.020 But in the meantime, thank you so much for coming on.

00:54:56.320 And we've got one more question for you.

00:54:57.820 Which is, what is the one thing that we're not talking about,

00:55:00.580 but we really should be?

00:55:02.740 Oh, God.

00:55:05.940 I was thinking it's all the things that we've been talking about.

00:55:09.960 It's about the jobs that are going to be lost in the reality.

00:55:13.620 The one thing people should be talking about more is,

00:55:15.820 is mass testing the answer?

00:55:18.760 Everyone thinks that test and trace is the answer.

00:55:21.060 is mass testing the answer if you've got a test that's not actually very accurate is actually

00:55:25.800 mass testing going to create more of a problem than a solution that i think is the next thing

00:55:30.060 we should be talking about fantastic well before you go julia tell people where they can follow you

00:55:34.760 and watch the show that you host yeah well i'm hosting the breakfast show on talk radio we're

00:55:39.880 on dab plus on our app and online we live stream actually um uh through uh on video most of my

00:55:47.380 interviews or on uh or on video so it's almost like watching a tv show it's all rather it's all

00:55:52.200 rather glitzy and glamorous they make me put lipstick on and everything 6 30 a.m to 10 a.m

00:55:57.720 every weekday and i mean every weekday um and also you can follow me on twitter at julia hb1

00:56:03.980 i think i'm on instagram as well but frankly i never get around to posting on there except when

00:56:08.500 i'm on holiday uh so uh but yeah twitter is where you'll mostly find me fantastic julia thank you

00:56:14.860 so much once again for coming on and thank you for watching and listening we will see you very

00:56:18.780 soon with another episode or a live stream all of them go out 7 p.m uk time take care and see you soon

00:56:25.220 guys.

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TRIGGERnometry - November 08, 2020

Julia Hartley-Brewer：＂This Lockdown is Insane＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

TRIGGERnometry - November 08, 2020

Julia Hartley-Brewer： ＂This Lockdown is Insane＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Julia Hartley-Brewer：＂This Lockdown is Insane＂