TRIGGERnometry - Kathleen Stock - Hounded Out for Trans Views

00:00:00.000 Hey Francis, do you like books?

00:00:02.340 Only when they have pictures.

00:00:03.940 All the waterproof ones I can take in the bath with me.

00:00:06.800 Alright, well for those of you who can read

00:00:08.960 and enjoy reading satire in particular,

00:00:11.340 we have just the book for you.

00:00:13.380 What satire?

00:00:14.220 Shut up.

00:00:14.920 The book is called Woke Fragility.

00:00:16.720 It's a brilliantly funny takedown of Robin DiAngelo's

00:00:19.520 white fragility and woke culture more generally.

00:00:22.800 It will keep you amused through the small wee hours

00:00:25.320 as civilization collapses all around you.

00:00:27.660 It's satire as it's meant to be.

00:00:30.160 Allowing you to laugh at things the powers that be

00:00:32.600 have now deemed off limits.

00:00:34.620 We all know that comedy now is more toothless than Joe Biden

00:00:37.780 after he's removed his dentures.

00:00:40.100 This is what you need to hit the funny bone

00:00:42.340 in these demented times.

00:00:44.280 And it's received an average of 4.4 stars on Amazon.

00:00:47.840 If you've already read Woke Fragility,

00:00:49.640 then Tired Moderate also has two other books out.

00:00:52.360 The Little Book of Woke Jokes

00:00:53.580 and Scary Stories to Tell the Woke in the Dark.

00:00:56.440 A woke parody of Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.

00:00:59.680 I'll read that book.

00:01:00.900 Which one?

00:01:01.680 The Little One.

00:01:03.160 Find his books on Amazon

00:01:04.560 and enjoy a satirical book that's funny and playful.

00:01:08.660 What are these terrible views that you hold

00:01:11.080 and that you express that caused, you know,

00:01:13.640 students to be protesting about you on campus and so on?

00:01:16.620 Well, it's mainly about categories.

00:01:19.140 So I don't believe that trans women are literally women.

00:01:22.260 I don't believe that trans men are literally men.

00:01:31.220 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:33.920 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:35.220 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:36.420 And this is a show for you

00:01:38.080 if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:42.160 Our brilliant guest today has been in the news quite a bit recently.

00:01:45.280 She is a British philosopher and writer

00:01:47.160 who has recently left the University of Sussex

00:01:49.580 where she was a professor, Kathleen Stock.

00:01:51.700 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:52.720 Hi.

00:01:53.520 Thanks for having me.

00:01:54.280 It's good to have you.

00:01:55.420 I imagine it's been quite a time for you

00:01:57.660 and we'll talk about that.

00:01:59.340 Before we get into that,

00:02:00.600 just tell everybody a little bit of who you are,

00:02:02.940 how are you, where you are,

00:02:04.000 what has been the journey through life

00:02:05.220 that leads you to be sitting here?

00:02:06.680 Okay.

00:02:06.980 Well, I'm originally from Scotland.

00:02:10.160 I am or was a philosophy lecturer

00:02:13.660 at the University of Sussex,

00:02:15.200 which is in Brighton in the south coast of England.

00:02:19.260 And for most of my career,

00:02:21.280 I was pretty uncontroversial

00:02:23.440 unless you specialised in very abstract theories of fiction.

00:02:28.420 And then I got very controversial very quickly

00:02:32.060 because I started speaking out about gender identity

00:02:35.740 and proposed legal and policy reforms

00:02:38.480 and the costs as I saw them for women and girls in particular

00:02:41.820 and lesbians.

00:02:44.180 I'm also a lesbian,

00:02:45.680 so it was relevant to me.

00:02:48.260 And then things went on from there

00:02:52.440 and I have been hounded out of my job.

00:02:55.260 You have.

00:02:56.680 And as I say,

00:02:57.900 I'm sure it's been a difficult time.

00:03:00.580 But before we get into what's happened to you,

00:03:04.020 can we start by some of these controversial opinions?

00:03:07.760 The trans issue we've explored quite a bit on the show.

00:03:11.600 What are these terrible views that you hold

00:03:14.040 and that you express

00:03:15.160 that caused students to be protesting

00:03:17.820 about you on campus and so on?

00:03:19.580 Well, it's mainly about categories.

00:03:22.100 So I don't believe that trans women are literally women.

00:03:25.260 I don't believe that trans men are literally men.

00:03:28.340 I think the categories of women and men

00:03:30.560 are useful conceptual categories

00:03:32.680 to pick out adult human females and males, respectively.

00:03:39.120 I also think that that has consequences for policies

00:03:43.220 because biological sex is really important

00:03:46.200 in a number of ranges of human...

00:03:48.260 Sorry, across a range of human domains.

00:03:51.380 And medicine is one.

00:03:54.040 Sport is another.

00:03:55.800 Single sex spaces are really important

00:03:57.820 because of the relationships between men and women

00:04:00.620 in terms of susceptibility to sexual assault.

00:04:05.180 So that's it, really.

00:04:07.800 I think you can't change sex.

00:04:10.000 Trans women aren't women.

00:04:11.200 Trans men aren't men.

00:04:13.360 Gender identity is not more important than sex.

00:04:15.160 And gender identity certainly shouldn't determine

00:04:18.160 things like access to sporting teams,

00:04:22.540 same-sex spaces, resources, and so on.

00:04:29.080 You're talking a little bit sort of academic language.

00:04:31.960 Am I?

00:04:33.140 You're not.

00:04:34.120 In the sense, the conversations that we have on the show

00:04:36.440 are kind of like that.

00:04:37.880 But I think for just a normal person who's tuning in

00:04:39.860 and going, who is this professor who's got whatever,

00:04:41.960 basically what you're saying is people with male bodies

00:04:45.660 shouldn't be in female sports.

00:04:47.800 People with male bodies shouldn't be in female prisons.

00:04:50.240 People with male bodies shouldn't have access

00:04:52.000 to other women's spaces.

00:04:54.800 And you can't change your sex just by saying words.

00:04:58.800 Yeah.

00:04:59.260 I mean, those things,

00:05:00.880 whether you've got a male or a female body

00:05:03.080 makes a difference to all sorts of other things.

00:05:06.380 Females are, on average, smaller, weaker,

00:05:11.380 slower than males.

00:05:14.380 In a world in which most people are heterosexual,

00:05:17.540 males have a sexual interest in females.

00:05:20.220 As we know, sexual assault statistics tell us

00:05:22.600 that females are much more likely to be sexually assaulted

00:05:26.360 than males.

00:05:27.400 And they're much more likely to be assaulted by males

00:05:30.400 than by females.

00:05:31.540 So a progressive society puts in, at a minimum,

00:05:36.920 places where women and girls get undressed or sleep,

00:05:41.860 gives them their own spaces or tries to.

00:05:44.440 And the current orthodoxy that's coming out

00:05:47.980 of LGBT organisations is that that is somehow prejudicial

00:05:51.820 to trans women.

00:05:53.560 And not just trans women,

00:05:55.420 but any male who says they feel like a female

00:05:59.260 should have access to those spaces.

00:06:01.000 So, yeah.

00:06:02.400 Now, to me, Kathleen,

00:06:03.560 what you've just said just smacks of common sense.

00:06:06.860 Why has that become so controversial?

00:06:10.680 Well, I mean, that's a good question.

00:06:12.720 I think there's multiple causal background factors here.

00:06:18.960 But in universities,

00:06:21.120 it's controversial to say the things I'm saying.

00:06:25.060 That's partly, I think,

00:06:27.280 because of the disproportionate influence

00:06:29.160 of certain academics in the humanities

00:06:31.360 coming out of philosophy, gender studies,

00:06:35.020 who have quite radical, utopian-style views

00:06:39.520 about what gender is

00:06:41.420 and the idea is that we need to just queer everything,

00:06:44.220 break down all these boundaries.

00:06:46.180 Even the biological boundaries between men and women

00:06:50.100 are really social, not natural.

00:06:51.580 So that means they can be changed and they're malleable.

00:06:55.840 So really, progressive societies should be enacting policies

00:06:59.400 that disrupt those boundaries rather than entrench them.

00:07:03.420 So, you know, that is never going to fly outside universities,

00:07:07.360 but you'd be surprised or not surprised to know

00:07:09.800 that in universities quite extreme ideas can flourish.

00:07:14.860 There's also the influence of lobbying groups in the UK

00:07:19.040 like Stonewall is historically famous

00:07:22.840 and rightly so for defending gay rights,

00:07:25.740 but it's now got a new agenda in the last five or six years,

00:07:29.480 which is about gender identity,

00:07:32.180 affirmation of gender identity.

00:07:34.640 And Stonewall is in nearly every British university

00:07:38.140 and also a lot of other UK institutions as well.

00:07:41.220 So with Stonewall pumping out propaganda that says

00:07:45.340 you should get rid of any reference to sex biologically

00:07:49.380 in your policies, in your resources, in your spaces,

00:07:53.260 and also having all this stuff about bullying and harassment

00:07:56.500 and how talking about sex is automatically suspect.

00:08:03.000 And if you get it wrong, you know, if you misgender somebody,

00:08:05.840 then that's bullying, stuff like that.

00:08:08.540 It's not really surprising then that universities

00:08:10.780 young, impressionable people in universities

00:08:14.300 have come to start believing all this stuff.

00:08:16.400 So I think that's the kind of story of how they got there.

00:08:19.420 And it's also in schools, you know,

00:08:21.520 and the teachers are agreeing.

00:08:24.700 So it's a bit like a kind of religious indoctrination program

00:08:29.480 and it's worked really well.

00:08:31.360 And Kathleen, what was the moment for you?

00:08:33.340 Because we all have a breaking point with this stuff.

00:08:35.720 With me, it was when after Brexit,

00:08:40.180 people were demonising old white men as being racist,

00:08:43.020 stupid, thick, etc.

00:08:44.800 And my father is an old white man who married a woman of colour

00:08:47.540 back in the 70s.

00:08:48.640 That upset me.

00:08:49.720 That was a moment where I thought,

00:08:51.060 no, enough's enough now.

00:08:52.620 When was that moment for you?

00:08:53.920 I mean, it was in 2018.

00:08:58.540 And it was, I mean, I can't say it was one moment,

00:09:04.520 but there was just a series of things in 2018,

00:09:07.260 which I just noticed.

00:09:09.440 One was that the government,

00:09:11.160 the British government were consulting

00:09:13.040 on whether we should change

00:09:15.300 getting a gender recognition certificate,

00:09:17.700 which gives changes your legal sex.

00:09:19.960 They were consulting on whether that should just become

00:09:22.560 purely a matter of self-ID,

00:09:24.440 just saying, I feel like I'm a female,

00:09:27.620 signing a form, basically paying a small amount of money.

00:09:30.540 At the moment, it's a kind of gate-kept,

00:09:32.660 medicalised process,

00:09:33.860 and it has certain conditions built in.

00:09:36.380 But Stonewall and other organisations

00:09:38.200 were heavily pushing to go to self-ID.

00:09:40.660 And I was looking around for the academics

00:09:44.840 who would be saying, hang on a minute,

00:09:47.220 there's a lot of problems here.

00:09:48.340 If you're just going to open up this sort of privilege,

00:09:51.680 really, to anyone who says they feel like a woman,

00:09:55.840 and that will give them all sorts of access

00:09:57.420 to spaces and resources and so on, potentially.

00:10:02.380 So we need to think about this.

00:10:04.380 And yet, it was a wasteland.

00:10:06.420 There was just nobody really talking about that.

00:10:08.640 And anyone outside of universities

00:10:10.620 were trying to talk about that,

00:10:12.640 then they were being shouted down

00:10:16.400 and said they were transphobic.

00:10:18.320 I mean, I'm actually exaggerating

00:10:19.640 because there were a few people in universities

00:10:21.380 trying to talk about it,

00:10:22.260 but they were having an obviously terrible time.

00:10:24.800 So that started to really annoy me

00:10:27.440 because I'm a philosopher.

00:10:30.340 And my training tells me

00:10:32.780 that I'm supposed to be able to talk about things,

00:10:35.660 argue, use reasons, evidence,

00:10:37.760 and that I'm allowed to disagree with people

00:10:39.500 without it being a personal flaw.

00:10:43.320 So that annoyed me.

00:10:44.820 And then the other aspect, I suppose,

00:10:46.260 is that I am gay.

00:10:47.680 And part of this new orthodoxy

00:10:49.960 is that you can identify your way into lesbianism as well.

00:10:52.300 So, you know, males with male bodies and penises

00:10:56.200 calling themselves lesbians

00:10:57.640 and being accepted by LGBT organisations as lesbians,

00:11:02.200 when the whole point of being a lesbian

00:11:03.520 is you're not interested in male-bodied people with penises.

00:11:07.100 So it just seemed like upside-down world

00:11:10.240 that this was being pushed by, you know,

00:11:13.200 traditionally gay rights organisations

00:11:16.240 is just absolutely bonkers.

00:11:17.660 Still, I think, it's bonkers.

00:11:19.860 And we'll touch on the lesbian thing

00:11:24.140 because one of my best mates is a gay woman

00:11:26.860 and she was talking about this stuff

00:11:29.220 right before it became a mainstream issue.

00:11:33.460 And I was saying to her, Simi,

00:11:34.640 why is it that you're so upset?

00:11:36.140 And she was saying that there are lesbian spaces

00:11:39.300 which men would then come into,

00:11:42.180 say, I identify as a woman,

00:11:44.180 and then they would just have to be accepted.

00:11:47.280 Yeah.

00:11:48.060 I mean, one thing I think,

00:11:50.620 certainly back then,

00:11:51.720 that a lot of people didn't grasp,

00:11:54.140 because the stereotype of a trans woman,

00:11:56.180 I think for many people,

00:11:57.320 is somebody who's had surgery,

00:11:59.240 taken hormones,

00:12:00.280 and is probably attracted to men.

00:12:03.940 So probably gay originally,

00:12:06.320 like a gay man who then has surgery and hormones.

00:12:10.040 But actually,

00:12:10.940 quite a large percentage of trans women

00:12:15.440 are heterosexual or bisexual,

00:12:17.660 but they're attracted to women.

00:12:18.880 They're sexually attracted to women.

00:12:20.040 Now, if you are a trans woman

00:12:23.040 and you identify as a woman

00:12:24.880 and you're attracted to women,

00:12:28.080 then, you know,

00:12:31.240 it would be,

00:12:32.060 presumably it would be quite challenging

00:12:33.200 to your own identity

00:12:34.160 if you went after straight women,

00:12:36.120 because they're straight

00:12:37.080 and they're supposed to be interested in men.

00:12:38.880 So lesbians are the group

00:12:40.360 that get the attention

00:12:42.160 because it's supposed to sort of

00:12:44.000 somehow follow from the logic

00:12:45.340 of who they are.

00:12:46.340 They're attracted to women,

00:12:47.420 so they must be attracted to trans women

00:12:49.080 because trans women are women.

00:12:50.360 It's this kind of weird calculus

00:12:52.480 that goes on.

00:12:54.080 And I think that's why

00:12:55.100 lesbians early on

00:12:57.060 were aware of this pressure

00:12:59.260 and sort of the weird consequences

00:13:02.140 of this logic

00:13:03.560 earlier than most people,

00:13:05.600 because it doesn't really affect

00:13:06.500 straight women the same way

00:13:07.540 and it doesn't affect straight men

00:13:08.760 or gay men that way.

00:13:11.820 Although sometimes now,

00:13:13.340 apparently, trans men

00:13:14.320 will try and convince gay men

00:13:16.260 that they should be sexually interested in them

00:13:17.980 because they're men.

00:13:20.580 So, yeah, I think lesbians

00:13:22.200 were sort of onto the issues earlier.

00:13:25.200 Can I ask you something?

00:13:26.560 I mean, it's going to sound

00:13:27.400 a bit primitive, this question,

00:13:29.160 but Francis and I sometimes,

00:13:31.420 you know, we've talked about this issue a lot

00:13:33.920 and every now and again

00:13:35.400 we just look at each other and go,

00:13:36.700 do you not think this is just fucking mental?

00:13:39.860 Like what you've just had to explain.

00:13:42.680 Do you not sometimes just like pinch yourself

00:13:44.140 and go, really?

00:13:44.920 Yeah, of course I do.

00:13:45.460 This is the conversation we're having?

00:13:46.720 I have to write a book about it.

00:13:47.620 I know.

00:13:48.300 Material Girls and a very good book it is.

00:13:50.460 Right?

00:13:51.720 Yeah, well, yes.

00:13:53.380 I mean, I did not,

00:13:54.680 I've made the joke before,

00:13:55.500 but I did not see my lifetime

00:13:56.920 sort of contribution to philosophy

00:13:58.520 to be writing a book

00:13:59.900 that explains there are two sexes

00:14:01.280 and that gay people exist.

00:14:02.440 You know, but here we are.

00:14:06.920 I just think it shows

00:14:08.240 how susceptible to flashy sounding,

00:14:12.720 ultimately mad ideas

00:14:14.860 human beings can be

00:14:16.060 in the right circumstances.

00:14:17.080 So I think it's sociologically interesting

00:14:20.120 how so many of us

00:14:22.180 seem to have gone along with this

00:14:23.400 despite the obvious

00:14:24.900 terrible consequences

00:14:28.000 for children,

00:14:29.240 for gay women,

00:14:30.820 for women in sport

00:14:33.860 and so on.

00:14:34.400 And we seem to,

00:14:35.080 unable to put all these

00:14:36.480 pieces of the puzzle together.

00:14:38.980 So it does show,

00:14:41.020 it takes away a bit of the hubris

00:14:42.060 of supposedly rational people

00:14:45.060 that we are where we are.

00:14:46.600 But yes,

00:14:47.140 it is as I met a woman

00:14:48.620 not that long ago

00:14:49.560 and she said,

00:14:50.520 I'm from the East End,

00:14:51.460 we call this fucking nuts.

00:14:54.300 I mean,

00:14:55.140 it's hard to disagree at this point,

00:14:57.140 which brings us very much onto,

00:14:58.560 look,

00:14:58.720 we've charted what three,

00:15:00.660 the three of us,

00:15:01.220 how bigoted we are

00:15:02.200 with our evil opinions.

00:15:03.340 So let's talk now

00:15:04.960 about your situation.

00:15:06.200 You were talking about

00:15:06.840 how in 2018

00:15:07.700 very few people in academia

00:15:09.160 particularly felt able

00:15:10.080 to speak out against this.

00:15:12.260 What is it that you did

00:15:13.480 that caused all of this?

00:15:15.400 Assuming that you did anything.

00:15:16.940 Well,

00:15:17.260 I didn't do anything

00:15:18.120 other than say

00:15:18.740 the sorts of things

00:15:19.400 I've just been saying

00:15:20.260 alongside other things

00:15:22.880 which I also believe are true,

00:15:25.120 which is that trans people

00:15:26.240 should be protected in law

00:15:27.720 and policy

00:15:28.900 and if possible,

00:15:31.200 and I think it is possible,

00:15:32.120 we should find creative ways

00:15:33.220 to meet their needs too

00:15:34.360 but what we can't do

00:15:36.220 is just collapse

00:15:37.080 the categories of women

00:15:38.260 and men legally

00:15:40.100 because they're there

00:15:42.700 for a good reason

00:15:43.240 because women and men

00:15:44.720 are different in reality

00:15:46.420 and nothing we say

00:15:47.760 in language

00:15:48.240 or in policy

00:15:48.980 will change

00:15:49.660 the fundamental differences

00:15:51.160 between men and women

00:15:52.180 and then the impacts

00:15:53.840 that that has.

00:15:55.200 So all I said

00:15:56.080 was things like that

00:15:57.140 but there's this,

00:15:59.820 I suppose it goes along

00:16:00.740 with the sort of

00:16:02.640 fucking nuts element of it

00:16:04.340 that if somebody is saying

00:16:05.360 something that's fucking nuts

00:16:06.400 then they've got a really

00:16:07.260 strong interest

00:16:08.780 in stopping any

00:16:10.180 rational scrutiny of that.

00:16:12.240 So alongside

00:16:12.820 extreme trans activism

00:16:14.660 goes this kind of

00:16:16.140 cult-like structure

00:16:17.880 which says

00:16:18.620 anyone who disagrees with us

00:16:20.220 is a hater.

00:16:21.460 They could only be coming

00:16:22.640 from a position of bigotry

00:16:24.560 and dislike of trans people

00:16:26.060 which is absolutely

00:16:26.740 not the case

00:16:27.680 in my case

00:16:28.880 or really hardly

00:16:30.400 anyone I know

00:16:31.380 across the gender

00:16:32.500 critical movement

00:16:33.140 and of course

00:16:34.040 the gender critical movement

00:16:35.020 includes trans people

00:16:35.900 who also say

00:16:36.880 this is fucking nuts

00:16:37.900 and you know

00:16:39.180 hang on a minute

00:16:39.740 not in my name.

00:16:41.540 So yeah,

00:16:43.880 I don't know.

00:16:45.160 So you started saying

00:16:45.920 all of this?

00:16:47.220 I started saying that

00:16:48.240 yeah,

00:16:48.560 I wrote some blog pieces

00:16:49.640 and then I kind of graduated

00:16:50.940 I started being asked

00:16:52.160 to write things

00:16:52.760 for publications

00:16:53.500 I mean originally

00:16:54.940 it was just on Medium

00:16:55.800 then I did a talk

00:16:59.000 public talk

00:17:00.260 an organisation

00:17:01.720 called Women's Place

00:17:02.720 which is a grassroots

00:17:04.100 feminist organisation

00:17:05.240 raising these issues

00:17:06.220 on the left

00:17:07.300 and you know

00:17:12.040 colleagues at Sussex

00:17:13.300 students

00:17:14.340 colleagues in philosophy

00:17:16.180 across the world

00:17:17.520 members of the public

00:17:19.660 a lot of them

00:17:20.840 just kind of

00:17:21.680 went into action

00:17:23.500 to try and start

00:17:24.780 getting me

00:17:25.340 either fired

00:17:26.300 or get me to shut up

00:17:27.380 basically

00:17:27.920 because

00:17:28.860 obviously what I was saying

00:17:30.780 was threatening

00:17:31.620 to their position.

00:17:34.320 And by saying

00:17:34.920 trying to get you fired

00:17:35.820 or trying to get you

00:17:36.500 shut up

00:17:36.940 what do you mean

00:17:37.680 by that specifically?

00:17:38.940 Well I mean in 2018

00:17:40.140 the Times ran an article

00:17:42.760 where

00:17:43.940 I mean I didn't know

00:17:45.200 anything about this

00:17:45.700 until I read it in the Times

00:17:46.520 but they had been

00:17:47.320 in Facebook groups

00:17:49.160 of trans activists

00:17:51.220 who had

00:17:52.380 been

00:17:53.660 working out

00:17:54.940 how to use

00:17:55.740 I think they were

00:17:56.500 like saying

00:17:56.960 let's use the Equality Act

00:17:58.640 to get her

00:17:59.460 accused of a hate crime

00:18:01.600 and you know

00:18:02.520 let's

00:18:03.260 lobby the Vice Chancellor

00:18:04.680 so

00:18:05.480 from right from the start

00:18:07.440 there was kind of

00:18:08.120 organised moves

00:18:09.500 to

00:18:09.960 get me either censored

00:18:12.600 or fired

00:18:14.100 I suppose.

00:18:16.540 Students have done

00:18:17.520 various things

00:18:18.020 at various times

00:18:18.500 you know

00:18:18.720 there's internal

00:18:19.520 complaint systems

00:18:20.380 in universities

00:18:21.000 for good reason

00:18:21.720 but

00:18:22.120 they can be used

00:18:23.440 vexatiously

00:18:24.020 and they were used

00:18:24.900 vexatiously against me

00:18:25.940 so I was put through

00:18:26.800 quite long

00:18:28.080 prolonged

00:18:28.580 internal investigations

00:18:30.020 for things I'd

00:18:32.200 said

00:18:32.920 online

00:18:33.800 that were perfectly fine

00:18:34.780 as it turned out

00:18:35.440 and I was

00:18:35.960 exonerated of all charges

00:18:37.540 but you know

00:18:38.280 the process

00:18:39.840 is the punishment

00:18:40.500 to some extent

00:18:41.180 protests at my talks

00:18:44.600 I've been

00:18:45.380 deplatformed

00:18:47.040 a couple of times

00:18:49.420 big petitions

00:18:50.920 against me

00:18:52.180 using the internal

00:18:54.660 mail of Sussex

00:18:55.580 to

00:18:55.980 put out various

00:18:57.280 communications

00:18:57.900 that are

00:18:58.980 highly prejudicial

00:19:01.020 and

00:19:01.880 misstate my position

00:19:03.240 I mean

00:19:04.160 that's the thing

00:19:04.700 my position

00:19:05.720 is never

00:19:06.140 accurately

00:19:06.740 conveyed

00:19:07.660 by these people

00:19:08.580 it's always

00:19:09.340 conveyed

00:19:09.960 in the sort

00:19:10.480 of most lurid

00:19:11.500 uncharitable way

00:19:13.680 and they'll seize

00:19:14.420 on tiny little

00:19:15.580 aspects

00:19:16.420 and blow them

00:19:17.040 up to

00:19:17.460 big massive

00:19:18.580 meaningful

00:19:19.160 things

00:19:20.600 so it's been

00:19:22.540 a bit of a

00:19:23.100 battle really

00:19:24.460 just to kind of

00:19:25.420 deal with all that

00:19:26.840 because it just

00:19:27.240 comes at you

00:19:27.980 kind of relentlessly

00:19:29.500 and why

00:19:30.740 you Kathleen

00:19:31.380 well I mean

00:19:32.960 it's coming

00:19:33.240 not just coming

00:19:33.880 at me

00:19:34.080 it's coming

00:19:34.400 out

00:19:34.660 anyone who

00:19:35.600 says the

00:19:36.040 sorts of

00:19:36.400 things that

00:19:36.840 I say

00:19:37.360 I don't

00:19:37.700 think I'm

00:19:38.060 special in

00:19:38.480 that respect

00:19:39.000 I think

00:19:40.800 the only

00:19:41.520 thing that

00:19:42.220 perhaps makes

00:19:42.940 it more

00:19:43.240 intense in

00:19:43.740 my case

00:19:44.220 is that

00:19:44.520 I was at

00:19:44.880 Sussex

00:19:45.160 University

00:19:45.760 which is

00:19:46.800 in Brighton

00:19:47.520 and Brighton

00:19:48.380 is the

00:19:48.900 heart

00:19:49.780 of

00:19:50.240 the

00:19:50.400 Portland

00:19:50.720 of the

00:19:51.100 UK

00:19:51.380 yeah

00:19:51.880 I mean

00:19:53.400 I like

00:19:53.740 Brighton

00:19:54.100 or did

00:19:54.540 like

00:19:54.720 Brighton

00:19:55.100 I used

00:19:57.220 to live

00:19:57.480 there

00:19:57.680 even

00:19:57.900 but

00:19:58.160 it's

00:19:59.880 you know

00:20:00.820 it's got

00:20:01.080 a long

00:20:01.500 history

00:20:01.880 going back

00:20:02.360 to the

00:20:02.620 17th

00:20:03.000 century

00:20:03.280 of gay

00:20:03.620 people

00:20:03.980 being

00:20:04.980 there

00:20:05.340 and

00:20:05.880 in

00:20:07.260 recent

00:20:07.540 times

00:20:07.860 it's

00:20:08.200 you know

00:20:08.580 queer

00:20:09.420 culture

00:20:09.880 central

00:20:10.380 in Brighton

00:20:11.020 and there's

00:20:11.200 lots of

00:20:11.480 young kids

00:20:11.960 there

00:20:12.300 who came

00:20:13.480 there

00:20:13.700 for that

00:20:14.020 reason

00:20:14.300 and they

00:20:14.660 went to

00:20:15.000 Sussex

00:20:15.260 for that

00:20:15.580 reason

00:20:15.820 so I

00:20:16.260 think

00:20:16.540 it was

00:20:16.880 probably

00:20:17.180 important

00:20:17.800 to shut

00:20:19.320 me

00:20:19.480 down

00:20:19.880 even

00:20:20.200 more

00:20:20.460 important

00:20:20.760 to shut

00:20:21.060 me

00:20:21.380 because

00:20:21.660 it was

00:20:22.020 quite

00:20:22.180 symbolic

00:20:22.580 that I

00:20:23.720 was saying

00:20:24.100 all this

00:20:24.340 stuff

00:20:24.640 whilst

00:20:25.200 at

00:20:25.560 Sussex

00:20:25.820 University

00:20:26.400 I mean

00:20:28.640 I'll be

00:20:29.580 honest

00:20:29.800 to you

00:20:30.020 Kathleen

00:20:30.320 when I

00:20:30.980 first

00:20:31.500 came across

00:20:32.160 your story

00:20:32.600 and I

00:20:32.760 was reading

00:20:33.220 about it

00:20:33.800 I was

00:20:34.620 like

00:20:34.840 good on

00:20:35.520 you

00:20:35.680 good on

00:20:36.340 you

00:20:36.460 for speaking

00:20:36.880 up

00:20:37.040 good on

00:20:37.340 for saying

00:20:37.680 your truth

00:20:38.140 and then

00:20:39.140 or what

00:20:39.920 is the

00:20:40.220 truth

00:20:40.400 I should

00:20:40.700 say

00:20:40.900 and then

00:20:41.140 I sort

00:20:41.460 of saw

00:20:41.640 that you

00:20:41.840 did it

00:20:42.080 in

00:20:42.240 Brighton

00:20:42.640 and my

00:20:43.020 first thought

00:20:43.520 was

00:20:43.760 she's

00:20:44.220 fucking

00:20:44.540 mental

00:20:45.020 yeah

00:20:47.440 I know

00:20:47.860 well

00:20:49.300 yeah

00:20:49.640 yeah

00:20:50.320 but I

00:20:50.960 mean

00:20:51.120 I wasn't

00:20:51.920 going to

00:20:52.140 not say

00:20:52.600 it

00:20:52.740 because I

00:20:52.960 lived in

00:20:53.260 Brighton

00:20:53.620 yeah

00:20:54.120 it's just

00:20:56.040 an accident

00:20:56.460 I got a job

00:20:56.880 at Sussex

00:20:57.260 I could have

00:20:57.580 got a job

00:20:57.900 at like

00:20:58.220 Hull or

00:20:58.740 somewhere

00:20:59.000 maybe this

00:20:59.620 wouldn't be

00:21:00.220 gone the way

00:21:01.440 it did

00:21:01.860 but

00:21:02.160 I mean

00:21:03.400 that talk

00:21:04.620 that talk

00:21:04.640 I referred

00:21:05.020 to

00:21:05.360 was

00:21:05.700 for

00:21:05.980 a

00:21:06.080 woman's

00:21:06.300 place

00:21:06.580 and

00:21:06.800 that

00:21:07.340 was

00:21:07.520 in

00:21:07.680 Brighton

00:21:08.100 and that

00:21:08.460 was

00:21:08.600 in

00:21:08.740 2018

00:21:09.240 and I

00:21:10.600 did

00:21:10.800 I did

00:21:11.280 think

00:21:11.520 this is

00:21:11.960 a bit

00:21:12.200 mental

00:21:12.580 why

00:21:12.920 you know

00:21:13.480 that

00:21:14.500 was

00:21:14.740 because

00:21:15.800 the

00:21:16.060 previous

00:21:17.120 woman's

00:21:17.480 place

00:21:17.660 meetings

00:21:18.040 the one

00:21:18.340 before

00:21:18.600 that

00:21:18.760 had

00:21:18.940 a

00:21:19.080 bomb

00:21:19.240 threat

00:21:19.680 and

00:21:20.320 the one

00:21:20.580 at Oxford

00:21:21.000 had been

00:21:21.420 really

00:21:22.000 aggressively

00:21:22.920 protested

00:21:24.340 and

00:21:24.480 you know

00:21:25.060 at that

00:21:25.680 point

00:21:25.960 there wasn't

00:21:26.940 the public

00:21:27.420 understanding

00:21:28.080 of our

00:21:28.800 position

00:21:29.100 at all

00:21:29.560 so

00:21:31.300 I think

00:21:31.920 it was

00:21:32.160 just

00:21:32.300 really

00:21:32.600 easy

00:21:32.900 for

00:21:33.080 members

00:21:33.800 of the

00:21:34.080 general

00:21:34.300 public

00:21:34.680 to think

00:21:35.280 they must

00:21:36.100 be

00:21:36.220 transphobic

00:21:36.680 why else

00:21:37.080 would they

00:21:37.300 be going

00:21:37.600 on about

00:21:37.960 this

00:21:38.240 like

00:21:38.520 so

00:21:38.820 it really

00:21:39.940 felt like

00:21:40.280 a hostile

00:21:40.640 environment

00:21:41.060 and we

00:21:41.640 were giving

00:21:42.120 doing this

00:21:43.300 event

00:21:43.540 in Brighton

00:21:44.320 and it

00:21:46.040 was quite

00:21:46.860 intense

00:21:48.220 you know

00:21:49.380 what I find

00:21:49.800 odd about

00:21:50.200 all of this

00:21:50.740 Kathleen

00:21:51.100 is that

00:21:51.580 at the

00:21:52.560 same

00:21:52.820 time

00:21:53.280 as

00:21:53.560 government

00:21:53.940 organisations

00:21:54.700 are

00:21:55.320 ceasing

00:21:56.060 to take

00:21:56.560 advice

00:21:57.120 from some

00:21:57.880 of these

00:21:58.220 activists

00:21:58.880 that are

00:22:00.020 lobbying

00:22:00.420 for easier

00:22:01.360 transition

00:22:02.000 and all

00:22:02.380 of this

00:22:02.620 other

00:22:02.820 stuff

00:22:03.120 at the

00:22:03.740 same

00:22:03.940 time

00:22:04.260 that

00:22:04.460 clearly

00:22:05.040 people

00:22:05.440 are

00:22:05.600 starting

00:22:05.860 to realise

00:22:06.540 that

00:22:07.200 they'd

00:22:07.760 gone

00:22:07.960 too far

00:22:08.600 we're

00:22:09.200 still

00:22:09.400 having

00:22:09.720 conversations

00:22:10.300 like in

00:22:10.840 your

00:22:11.080 case

00:22:11.420 where

00:22:11.780 people

00:22:13.080 you know

00:22:13.480 when you

00:22:13.780 go on

00:22:14.080 the

00:22:14.180 mainstream

00:22:14.500 media

00:22:14.840 there was

00:22:15.100 an article

00:22:15.500 in the

00:22:15.800 Guardian

00:22:16.040 this

00:22:16.260 morning

00:22:16.560 misrepresenting

00:22:17.440 what

00:22:17.640 happened

00:22:18.020 to

00:22:18.220 you

00:22:18.420 right

00:22:18.940 like

00:22:19.540 I don't

00:22:20.060 understand

00:22:20.380 how we

00:22:20.940 have

00:22:21.120 these two

00:22:21.560 simultaneous

00:22:22.060 things

00:22:22.380 happening

00:22:22.660 on the

00:22:22.940 one hand

00:22:23.440 people

00:22:23.940 are realising

00:22:24.740 that maybe

00:22:25.460 in the

00:22:25.900 name of

00:22:26.440 diversity

00:22:27.580 and inclusion

00:22:28.180 and whatever

00:22:28.880 else

00:22:29.180 and being

00:22:29.580 compassionate

00:22:30.160 which I

00:22:30.860 think is

00:22:31.380 what motivates

00:22:32.000 a lot of

00:22:32.380 people

00:22:32.640 to support

00:22:33.440 this position

00:22:33.960 we just

00:22:34.980 lost sight

00:22:35.620 of the

00:22:35.980 truth

00:22:36.220 and what's

00:22:36.680 important

00:22:37.080 while at

00:22:38.260 the same

00:22:38.660 time

00:22:38.900 people like

00:22:39.340 you are

00:22:39.540 being

00:22:39.760 demonised

00:22:40.300 right

00:22:41.060 alongside

00:22:41.500 that

00:22:41.800 that doesn't

00:22:42.600 make any

00:22:42.920 sense to me

00:22:43.420 well it's

00:22:44.060 not the

00:22:44.320 same people

00:22:45.000 in every

00:22:45.660 case

00:22:46.040 obviously

00:22:46.460 but I

00:22:47.260 think what

00:22:47.660 it shows

00:22:48.100 is how

00:22:48.620 embedded

00:22:49.060 this

00:22:49.800 ideology

00:22:50.440 is in

00:22:51.500 our

00:22:51.780 institutions

00:22:52.380 that people

00:22:54.260 are still

00:22:54.500 finding out

00:22:54.900 about it

00:22:55.560 or they're

00:22:56.620 finding out

00:22:57.100 that what

00:22:57.400 they thought

00:22:57.860 was a

00:22:58.200 kind of

00:22:58.500 harmless

00:22:59.040 inclusive

00:23:00.280 kind

00:23:01.520 stance

00:23:02.120 has repercussions

00:23:03.240 for other

00:23:04.080 protected

00:23:04.560 groups

00:23:05.060 or for

00:23:06.100 free speech

00:23:06.760 or for

00:23:07.500 children

00:23:07.840 so it

00:23:10.000 is really

00:23:10.440 well embedded

00:23:10.940 and so it's

00:23:11.920 going to take

00:23:12.360 quite a lot

00:23:13.080 of sustained

00:23:15.840 action to

00:23:17.880 get it out

00:23:18.480 basically

00:23:19.200 and I

00:23:20.380 don't think

00:23:20.700 we're even

00:23:21.160 halfway there

00:23:22.360 yet because

00:23:22.900 there's been

00:23:23.340 some focus

00:23:23.800 on Stonewall

00:23:24.280 recently but

00:23:24.800 there are

00:23:25.020 other organisations

00:23:25.760 in Britain

00:23:26.220 that we need

00:23:26.600 to focus

00:23:26.920 on like

00:23:27.220 Mermaids

00:23:27.780 which is

00:23:28.480 the child

00:23:29.140 centred

00:23:30.160 gender

00:23:31.060 identity

00:23:31.740 affirming

00:23:33.820 organisation

00:23:34.800 who regularly

00:23:36.520 misuse

00:23:37.220 suicide

00:23:37.700 statistics

00:23:38.380 to scare

00:23:39.320 parents into

00:23:40.520 going along

00:23:41.880 with

00:23:42.200 medicalisation

00:23:42.980 of their

00:23:43.960 children

00:23:44.360 and

00:23:45.800 there's

00:23:46.840 a whole

00:23:47.100 set of

00:23:47.400 issues

00:23:47.620 we could

00:23:47.860 go into

00:23:48.160 there

00:23:48.360 but

00:23:48.500 we need

00:23:49.280 to think

00:23:49.580 about that

00:23:49.940 we need

00:23:50.180 to look

00:23:50.440 at it

00:23:50.820 the public

00:23:51.760 needs to

00:23:52.120 know about

00:23:52.620 it

00:23:52.960 and just

00:23:55.280 keep getting

00:23:55.760 the message

00:23:56.040 out

00:23:56.260 and partly

00:23:56.800 the problem

00:23:57.840 is or has

00:23:58.740 been

00:23:59.120 that there

00:24:00.160 are media

00:24:00.620 organisations

00:24:01.240 that just

00:24:01.740 won't talk

00:24:02.460 about it

00:24:03.040 or won't

00:24:03.940 talk about

00:24:04.240 it fairly

00:24:04.740 or objectively

00:24:05.720 now that's

00:24:06.200 starting to

00:24:06.760 change

00:24:07.100 hopefully

00:24:07.500 because the

00:24:07.860 BBC have

00:24:08.320 left Stonewall

00:24:08.980 Diversity

00:24:09.400 Champion

00:24:09.780 Scheme

00:24:10.240 but other

00:24:11.820 media organisations

00:24:12.620 are still

00:24:13.040 in there

00:24:13.380 and the

00:24:14.500 Guardian

00:24:14.800 has a

00:24:15.340 long way

00:24:15.660 to go

00:24:16.120 what a

00:24:18.580 surprise

00:24:19.080 but one

00:24:20.960 thing I'm

00:24:21.280 always fascinated

00:24:22.000 with your

00:24:22.700 story is

00:24:23.380 you're getting

00:24:23.980 all this

00:24:24.360 flack

00:24:24.720 you're turning

00:24:26.200 up at work

00:24:26.820 every day

00:24:27.300 you're getting

00:24:27.800 complaints made

00:24:29.020 about you

00:24:29.520 which are

00:24:30.780 not based

00:24:31.260 in any type

00:24:31.840 of fact

00:24:32.240 whatsoever

00:24:32.820 they're just

00:24:33.940 done as a

00:24:34.700 way to

00:24:35.160 essentially

00:24:35.900 wear you

00:24:37.120 down

00:24:37.420 drag you

00:24:38.180 down

00:24:38.440 why didn't

00:24:40.380 you give

00:24:41.180 up

00:24:41.360 why did

00:24:41.900 you not

00:24:42.220 think

00:24:42.440 you know

00:24:42.660 what

00:24:42.880 life's

00:24:43.280 too short

00:24:43.900 I've got

00:24:44.660 this wonderful

00:24:45.360 career at

00:24:45.940 a great

00:24:46.300 university

00:24:46.860 I could

00:24:47.900 just shut

00:24:48.340 my mouth

00:24:48.820 and I could

00:24:49.300 just carry

00:24:49.760 on with

00:24:50.060 my work

00:24:50.560 why didn't

00:24:51.220 you do

00:24:51.520 that

00:24:51.780 I mean

00:24:54.020 I don't

00:24:54.300 really know

00:24:54.880 obviously

00:24:55.340 except that

00:24:56.120 there's just

00:24:56.480 something

00:24:57.060 that is

00:24:58.640 I've never

00:25:00.180 yet reached

00:25:00.900 the stage

00:25:01.540 where I

00:25:02.000 think the

00:25:02.920 cost to

00:25:03.320 me is too

00:25:03.780 great

00:25:04.280 I think

00:25:07.400 the issues

00:25:07.740 are really

00:25:08.180 important

00:25:08.640 I think

00:25:09.100 they're

00:25:09.300 really

00:25:09.700 really

00:25:10.200 really

00:25:10.560 important

00:25:11.040 like

00:25:11.380 sex

00:25:12.080 non-conforming

00:25:12.540 children

00:25:13.040 their bodies

00:25:15.140 are being

00:25:15.440 irrevocably

00:25:16.040 changed

00:25:16.620 their fertility

00:25:17.220 is being

00:25:17.580 irrevocably

00:25:18.180 compromised

00:25:18.700 you know

00:25:19.200 because of

00:25:19.740 this idea

00:25:20.380 that there's

00:25:20.800 something

00:25:21.060 inside you

00:25:21.960 that is

00:25:22.800 much more

00:25:23.320 important

00:25:23.740 than the

00:25:24.800 material facts

00:25:25.520 about you

00:25:26.060 and that

00:25:26.380 somehow it's

00:25:26.820 innate

00:25:27.140 as opposed

00:25:27.640 to changeable

00:25:28.620 so yeah

00:25:29.740 those things

00:25:30.340 keep me

00:25:31.180 that issue

00:25:32.300 and the

00:25:32.820 women's

00:25:33.840 space issue

00:25:34.560 keep me

00:25:35.860 hooked in

00:25:36.460 and I just

00:25:36.980 think partly

00:25:37.400 it's my

00:25:37.880 philosophical

00:25:38.360 brain that

00:25:39.280 will not

00:25:40.740 accept

00:25:41.320 inconsistency

00:25:42.300 you know

00:25:43.460 even to my

00:25:44.640 own detriment

00:25:45.080 to some

00:25:45.420 extent

00:25:45.720 I just

00:25:46.400 can't

00:25:47.040 have it

00:25:47.580 so but of

00:25:48.660 course I go

00:25:49.020 through periods

00:25:49.560 where I'm like

00:25:49.980 oh this is

00:25:50.580 just too

00:25:51.180 much

00:25:51.620 and then I

00:25:53.100 kind of

00:25:53.600 you know

00:25:55.040 make a mental

00:25:55.700 resolution to

00:25:56.540 kind of step

00:25:57.060 back

00:25:57.500 but then I

00:25:58.640 read something

00:25:59.500 that annoys me

00:26:00.280 I get back

00:26:02.960 right in again

00:26:03.520 yeah and then

00:26:04.280 you get back

00:26:04.840 so let's go

00:26:06.760 back to the

00:26:07.260 story

00:26:07.600 you're working

00:26:08.540 in Sussex

00:26:09.240 it's 2020

00:26:11.300 2021

00:26:11.960 what was a

00:26:12.960 moment for you

00:26:13.620 where you

00:26:13.940 thought I

00:26:14.740 can't do this

00:26:15.420 anymore

00:26:15.740 oh right

00:26:16.900 well so

00:26:18.440 term started

00:26:20.300 this academic

00:26:21.800 year in

00:26:22.280 end of

00:26:23.740 September

00:26:24.180 and there'd

00:26:27.840 been a few

00:26:28.220 things you

00:26:29.360 know this

00:26:29.720 year

00:26:30.080 that happened

00:26:31.020 already that

00:26:31.660 had really

00:26:32.480 upset me at

00:26:33.580 the time

00:26:34.140 but you

00:26:35.340 know I

00:26:35.560 came back

00:26:36.080 to campus

00:26:37.220 everyone was

00:26:37.680 back on

00:26:37.980 campus because

00:26:38.660 the COVID

00:26:39.160 sort of

00:26:40.880 distancing had

00:26:41.560 stopped at

00:26:42.200 Sussex so

00:26:42.680 it was all

00:26:42.980 face-to-face

00:26:43.440 teaching and

00:26:45.020 the first two

00:26:47.100 weeks didn't

00:26:48.180 feel great I

00:26:49.060 knew that I

00:26:50.440 was you know

00:26:51.620 a bit of a

00:26:52.660 pariah on

00:26:53.760 campus I

00:26:54.180 could tell

00:26:54.780 that I was

00:26:56.540 but then

00:26:58.180 this campaign

00:26:58.900 started the

00:27:01.580 first thing I

00:27:02.080 knew was I

00:27:03.120 went to the

00:27:03.520 loo and

00:27:04.000 there were

00:27:04.220 stickers on

00:27:04.620 the back of

00:27:05.040 the toilet

00:27:05.580 door talking

00:27:07.540 about the

00:27:08.040 transphobic

00:27:08.540 shit that

00:27:08.920 comes out of

00:27:09.460 Kathleen Stock's

00:27:10.080 mouth and

00:27:11.560 obviously that's

00:27:12.320 not very

00:27:12.600 pleasant so

00:27:13.440 I had no

00:27:15.000 idea as part

00:27:15.960 of a campaign

00:27:16.560 I actually

00:27:16.960 thought that

00:27:17.240 was just a

00:27:17.540 one-off I

00:27:18.440 thought it was

00:27:18.740 sort of

00:27:19.220 relatively

00:27:19.600 emboldened

00:27:20.300 student and

00:27:22.480 and then the

00:27:23.660 next day as

00:27:24.600 I walked into

00:27:25.440 work there

00:27:27.880 were posters

00:27:28.420 all the way

00:27:28.840 over the

00:27:29.140 main entrance

00:27:29.880 with my

00:27:30.680 name on

00:27:31.000 them saying

00:27:32.760 Kathleen Stock's

00:27:34.280 a transphobe we

00:27:35.500 don't pay

00:27:36.040 nine thousand

00:27:37.600 pounds in

00:27:38.420 fees for

00:27:39.200 transphobia via

00:27:41.120 Kathleen Stock

00:27:41.860 so that was

00:27:44.860 quite difficult

00:27:47.980 to say the

00:27:48.900 least for me

00:27:49.660 I felt very

00:27:50.620 very exposed

00:27:51.540 and frightened

00:27:53.100 I suppose

00:27:53.860 definitely

00:27:54.940 distressed but

00:27:55.820 anyway I went

00:27:57.040 home and

00:27:57.640 realized that

00:27:58.400 there was this

00:27:58.940 now this

00:27:59.360 manifesto up

00:28:00.160 online full

00:28:02.420 of you know

00:28:03.380 quite intimidating

00:28:04.020 language telling

00:28:05.080 readers to get

00:28:06.140 really angry

00:28:06.620 to get angry

00:28:07.380 stay angry or

00:28:08.360 to you know

00:28:10.040 angry enough to

00:28:10.700 do something

00:28:11.120 about it we

00:28:12.000 fucking had

00:28:12.560 enough she's

00:28:14.720 a spiteful

00:28:15.200 bootlicker

00:28:15.760 transphobic

00:28:18.260 etc etc and

00:28:19.400 saying until

00:28:20.160 until she's

00:28:20.880 fired you'll

00:28:21.260 be seeing

00:28:21.540 us around

00:28:21.960 and then

00:28:23.200 they'd taken

00:28:25.200 pictures of

00:28:25.840 this guy all

00:28:27.300 in black with

00:28:28.060 a sort of

00:28:28.600 dress like

00:28:28.940 Antifa kind

00:28:30.200 of stuff holding

00:28:31.380 a big sign

00:28:32.360 saying stock

00:28:34.020 out is flares

00:28:35.020 going off

00:28:35.580 standing on the

00:28:36.200 University of

00:28:36.640 Sussex sign and

00:28:37.840 that was on the

00:28:38.300 website as well

00:28:39.020 and from then on

00:28:40.580 it just you know

00:28:41.220 every day there

00:28:42.380 was a new action

00:28:43.580 so they took all

00:28:45.360 the posters down

00:28:46.060 they all went up

00:28:46.560 again the next

00:28:47.500 day graffiti

00:28:49.060 started going

00:28:50.000 up there was

00:28:51.340 a about 10

00:28:52.860 of them arrived

00:28:53.380 on campus

00:28:53.960 unannounced one

00:28:54.760 day all with

00:28:56.520 signs saying

00:28:57.140 stock out

00:28:57.800 fire stock

00:28:58.840 and then leading

00:29:02.060 up to this

00:29:02.660 open day

00:29:03.240 protest where

00:29:03.840 about 100

00:29:04.380 people were

00:29:07.100 across the

00:29:09.120 campus the

00:29:09.700 main sort of

00:29:10.540 square of the

00:29:11.180 campus whilst

00:29:11.960 parents and

00:29:12.780 potential applicants

00:29:13.700 were coming in

00:29:15.220 they were all

00:29:15.620 standing there

00:29:16.080 with their masks

00:29:16.600 on and their

00:29:17.660 banners actually

00:29:18.540 some of the

00:29:18.920 banners apparently

00:29:19.420 said quit

00:29:20.100 stock so

00:29:21.580 clearly you know

00:29:22.600 it's like either

00:29:23.480 saying I should be

00:29:25.500 fired or

00:29:26.020 basically trying to

00:29:27.920 get me to quit

00:29:28.580 which obviously

00:29:29.220 they did

00:29:30.200 eventually so

00:29:31.600 so all of that

00:29:33.580 was shit

00:29:35.100 obviously

00:29:35.880 and I was

00:29:37.380 teaching from

00:29:37.920 home at this

00:29:38.460 point on

00:29:39.920 Zoom because

00:29:41.260 the police had

00:29:42.440 told me not to

00:29:43.240 go onto campus

00:29:43.980 campus and

00:29:45.160 had opened an

00:29:46.180 investigation into

00:29:47.000 it

00:29:47.340 why did they do

00:29:49.360 that why did

00:29:50.260 they why did

00:29:50.880 they say you

00:29:51.320 shouldn't go onto

00:29:51.740 campus

00:29:52.160 well because I

00:29:54.500 would say I

00:29:55.260 mean it's a

00:29:56.560 clearly intimidating

00:29:57.600 harassing atmosphere

00:29:59.280 and Sussex is a

00:30:00.400 campus university set

00:30:01.860 in the Sussex

00:30:02.600 Downs it's not

00:30:04.180 like you can just

00:30:04.640 sort of slip in

00:30:05.600 and slip out again

00:30:06.500 once you're there

00:30:07.760 you're you know

00:30:09.620 every 10 to 10

00:30:11.360 to the hour

00:30:11.960 everyone moves

00:30:12.840 lecture theatre

00:30:13.520 there's just

00:30:14.480 hundreds of people

00:30:15.380 streaming across

00:30:15.980 campus including

00:30:16.700 me had I been

00:30:17.520 there it would

00:30:19.660 have exposed me

00:30:20.300 to potential risk

00:30:21.240 so they were

00:30:21.800 concerned about

00:30:22.240 your safety is

00:30:22.880 what I'm getting

00:30:23.300 at yeah I

00:30:24.520 mean the language

00:30:25.320 of the manifesto

00:30:26.360 is clearly

00:30:27.560 aggressive I

00:30:29.820 don't say that

00:30:30.340 everyone involved

00:30:30.980 in this was

00:30:32.460 aggressive I

00:30:33.100 actually think

00:30:33.580 lots of people

00:30:34.120 that got involved

00:30:34.800 especially in the

00:30:35.520 big protest

00:30:36.120 probably had no

00:30:37.780 idea what they

00:30:38.200 were doing except

00:30:38.740 that it seemed

00:30:39.040 like a quite a

00:30:39.560 fun day out but

00:30:40.940 I think that the

00:30:41.520 ringleaders of

00:30:42.160 this are very

00:30:44.320 focused on me

00:30:45.300 quite obsessively

00:30:46.880 focused on me

00:30:47.740 and calling me

00:30:49.020 you know spiteful

00:30:49.840 bootlicker or

00:30:50.580 whatever the

00:30:52.980 language they were

00:30:53.600 using and the

00:30:54.380 imagery they were

00:30:55.040 using and the

00:30:55.980 idea that their

00:30:57.020 sort of their

00:30:58.080 website was called

00:30:58.820 anti-turf Sussex

00:31:00.140 so it's like

00:31:01.040 Antifa so I'm the

00:31:02.560 fascist and they're

00:31:03.920 the Antifa and

00:31:05.360 that's the dynamic

00:31:06.120 they're trying to

00:31:07.020 set up right so

00:31:08.980 yeah I was

00:31:10.680 definitely not

00:31:11.180 going to wander

00:31:11.580 around on campus

00:31:12.360 and I'm not a

00:31:13.300 martyr

00:31:13.560 the reason that I

00:31:15.520 hone in on this

00:31:16.200 point because what

00:31:16.980 you what you

00:31:17.640 mostly described

00:31:18.680 sounds like a

00:31:19.880 football manager at

00:31:20.740 the end of their

00:31:21.400 tenure you know

00:31:22.740 stock out quit all

00:31:24.760 of that stuff and

00:31:25.560 the argument that

00:31:26.280 people have made

00:31:27.640 this is going to

00:31:28.160 sound cruel and

00:31:28.860 uncaring but I'm

00:31:29.740 Russian so it's part

00:31:30.480 of my culture is

00:31:32.020 you believe in free

00:31:33.140 speech these people

00:31:34.120 were expressing an

00:31:35.080 opinion about you

00:31:35.960 they didn't like your

00:31:37.200 views they didn't

00:31:38.060 want you to be

00:31:39.100 around they

00:31:39.600 expressed that you

00:31:40.780 weren't physically

00:31:41.740 assaulted no as

00:31:43.440 far as I know

00:31:44.380 right so isn't

00:31:46.840 that their free

00:31:47.440 speech to say

00:31:48.360 stock out

00:31:48.940 well I mean if

00:31:52.660 they were just

00:31:53.260 saying stock out

00:31:54.580 then obviously that

00:31:55.440 would be their free

00:31:56.200 speech but they

00:31:56.860 weren't just doing

00:31:57.480 that were they

00:31:58.120 I mean it's not

00:32:00.020 I'm not it's not

00:32:03.040 up to me to decide

00:32:03.900 where the borderline

00:32:04.820 of legal definitions

00:32:06.760 of harassment

00:32:07.420 fall but as far

00:32:09.820 as I can see the

00:32:10.520 police think it's

00:32:11.240 conceivably within

00:32:12.340 that I think

00:32:15.220 universities are

00:32:15.880 interesting places

00:32:16.520 because yes there

00:32:18.260 is such a thing as

00:32:18.920 academic freedom and

00:32:19.680 in fact I think it's

00:32:21.500 very important and

00:32:22.220 I'm on record as

00:32:23.000 saying that but it's

00:32:24.460 also a workplace

00:32:25.280 and it was my

00:32:27.600 workplace right so

00:32:28.940 I think that the

00:32:30.780 people that at this

00:32:32.560 point strategically

00:32:33.780 moved to the free

00:32:35.120 speech defense I

00:32:36.480 always think it's

00:32:36.820 quite interesting

00:32:37.220 because these are

00:32:37.880 not traditionally

00:32:38.580 people that give a

00:32:39.400 shit about free

00:32:40.100 speech but all of

00:32:43.860 a sudden they do

00:32:44.840 and yet they're also

00:32:47.360 the people that quite

00:32:48.780 often will complain

00:32:50.080 about things like

00:32:50.760 Twitter pylons or in

00:32:53.260 fact were actively

00:32:54.580 complaining about me

00:32:56.340 saying things like

00:32:57.560 trans women are male

00:32:59.380 generally speaking not

00:33:01.140 you know now this is

00:33:02.380 posters with my name on

00:33:04.680 it you know every

00:33:05.740 single communication is

00:33:07.780 a direct reference to

00:33:09.200 me I'm not an elected

00:33:10.340 politician I don't

00:33:12.280 represent a large

00:33:13.100 corporation my speech

00:33:14.960 is within the law and

00:33:16.280 demonstrably within the

00:33:17.440 law and moreover I'm a

00:33:18.620 moderate so I don't

00:33:21.320 think that's acceptable

00:33:22.560 and I also think it

00:33:25.920 sends a terrible

00:33:26.660 message to anyone else

00:33:27.860 who thinks like me

00:33:28.740 within the university so

00:33:30.120 it's chilling of free

00:33:31.260 speech so we've got

00:33:32.660 these clashes or

00:33:34.140 alleged clashes when

00:33:37.120 free speech gets shut

00:33:38.060 down it's usually by

00:33:39.260 other speech right you

00:33:41.100 know it's not because

00:33:41.980 that's how human beings

00:33:42.900 communicate through

00:33:43.760 speech so we need to

00:33:46.160 be able to work out

00:33:46.900 what the difference is

00:33:47.720 between the kind of

00:33:49.120 speech that ultimately

00:33:50.460 shuts speech down and

00:33:52.400 the kind of speech that

00:33:53.360 doesn't and as far as

00:33:54.580 I'm concerned posters

00:33:55.500 flares saying I should

00:33:57.400 die alone etc that

00:33:59.940 falls on the side of

00:34:01.300 that's chilling

00:34:02.100 and how were the

00:34:04.180 University of Sussex

00:34:05.040 were they supportive

00:34:05.760 to you I think once

00:34:07.820 the once the student

00:34:11.000 harassment campaign

00:34:12.480 started they became

00:34:14.020 supportive of me yes

00:34:16.380 so you ended up leaving

00:34:19.260 in spite of their

00:34:20.360 support rather than due

00:34:21.740 to a lack of

00:34:22.160 well yeah I mean the

00:34:23.040 final straw as documented

00:34:24.960 is that the Union my the

00:34:27.540 Sussex UCU branch which

00:34:29.840 is the University and

00:34:30.580 College Union at Sussex

00:34:34.380 then put out a statement

00:34:35.780 which is basically in

00:34:37.100 support of the students

00:34:38.480 and condemned the

00:34:41.620 institutional transphobia

00:34:43.220 of Sussex allegedly

00:34:44.660 which by which they could

00:34:45.980 only mean supporting me

00:34:47.800 so at that point I mean

00:34:50.600 that's the problem if it

00:34:51.760 had just been a bunch of

00:34:53.300 students going rogue I

00:34:56.580 could probably have handled

00:34:58.020 it if I'd felt that there

00:35:00.420 was some sort of clear

00:35:01.360 understanding this was

00:35:02.400 unacceptable behavior but

00:35:04.220 there wasn't there's no

00:35:04.960 clear understanding amongst

00:35:06.100 my colleagues that this is

00:35:06.960 unacceptable behavior a

00:35:08.500 certain group of colleagues

00:35:09.420 think it's absolutely

00:35:10.180 brilliant behavior and went

00:35:12.240 online immediately to say

00:35:13.540 how they applauded it so

00:35:15.640 once you've got the

00:35:16.840 grown-ups cheering the

00:35:18.780 children on as it were I

00:35:22.040 just you know I was just

00:35:23.240 not an environment I want

00:35:24.340 to be in anymore hey

00:35:27.520 Konstantin do you like

00:35:29.280 Christmas no in USSR we

00:35:31.720 canceled Christmas and we

00:35:33.020 had Lenin fest instead

00:35:34.420 what's that we celebrated

00:35:36.020 glorious leader and

00:35:37.280 rewrote story of Jesus to

00:35:38.920 make it better really yes

00:35:40.900 in our story three wise men

00:35:42.600 were killed and gifts meant

00:35:44.000 for Jesus redistributed to

00:35:45.660 glorious workers of the

00:35:47.100 Soviet Union Jesus was put on

00:35:48.900 Gulag for having wrong

00:35:50.260 opinion as we call it in

00:35:51.640 Russia happy ending right

00:35:53.920 well if you do want to

00:35:55.580 celebrate the festive season

00:35:57.000 then there's only one way

00:35:58.300 to do it grab yourself a

00:36:00.120 ticket to our final live

00:36:01.640 show of the year at the

00:36:03.440 Leicester Square Theatre on

00:36:05.120 Saturday December the 11th

00:36:07.320 yes it is discussion with

00:36:08.940 one of our favorite guests

00:36:10.340 Aisha Akanbi she's almost as

00:36:12.960 good philosopher as

00:36:14.040 Vladimir Lenin yeah exactly

00:36:16.920 our two previous shows sold

00:36:19.320 out completely and this one

00:36:21.320 will as well grab your ticket

00:36:23.300 now before it's too late

00:36:25.140 click on link below during

00:36:27.200 interval there will be special

00:36:28.640 entertainment I will ride

00:36:30.380 bare with my shirt off I

00:36:32.380 didn't realize we were going

00:36:33.300 for that demographic mate oh

00:36:35.260 yes we are X was there any

00:36:38.900 communication between you and

00:36:40.640 some of the people who were

00:36:41.760 coming after you because you

00:36:43.360 know we've had Jordan

00:36:44.020 Peterson on the show we've

00:36:44.980 had our friends Brett Weinstein

00:36:46.320 and had the hanging on the

00:36:48.000 show and I know that they

00:36:49.800 they when they were

00:36:51.660 essentially forced out of

00:36:53.080 their campuses they made

00:36:55.620 attempts to communicate with

00:36:57.000 the students in Jordan's

00:36:58.380 case I think he went outside

00:36:59.980 and tried to talk to them and

00:37:01.140 they shouted him down in

00:37:02.580 Brett and Heather's case they

00:37:03.940 ended up with students roaming

00:37:05.080 the campus with baseball bats

00:37:06.500 looking for them were you ever

00:37:09.460 in any dialogue with people who

00:37:12.100 were trying to when you put it

00:37:13.180 like that I can't think why

00:37:14.300 yeah yeah um no uh well way

00:37:18.660 back in 2018 I um wrote an

00:37:21.980 email kind of as a standing

00:37:24.000 invitation to all philosophy

00:37:25.160 students which I then put on

00:37:26.860 my website saying if anyone

00:37:28.100 wants to discuss with me at

00:37:29.280 any time come to my office

00:37:30.620 hour you know here's my

00:37:31.980 position and I've always made

00:37:33.820 it clear that I would not

00:37:34.980 expect students to agree with

00:37:36.240 me um you know I will put

00:37:38.980 stuff on the reading list

00:37:39.840 that disagrees with me I do

00:37:41.540 that anyway for anything I'm

00:37:42.760 teaching and most philosophers

00:37:43.680 do so um I've kind of

00:37:46.740 communicated that way through

00:37:48.560 the standard pedagogical

00:37:50.560 methods and I've gone out of

00:37:53.500 my way to make it clear that

00:37:56.100 I'm open to dialogue and

00:37:57.640 occasionally people have taken

00:37:58.680 me up on that but no once

00:38:00.640 this started I'm not I'm not

00:38:03.380 you know I'm not a mug I'm

00:38:05.980 not like what am I supposed to

00:38:07.440 do I'm not like I don't think

00:38:08.840 I'm some sort of messiah figure

00:38:10.080 to go out there and like

00:38:11.740 overcome this these are the

00:38:15.140 people running this are

00:38:16.800 wankers and have no desire to

00:38:19.780 talk to them yeah well look

00:38:21.700 people are gonna accuse me of

00:38:23.140 victim blame and all sorts of

00:38:24.280 things but it's my job as an

00:38:25.300 interviewer to to have the

00:38:26.800 conversation to prod at the

00:38:28.860 seams of what we're talking

00:38:29.840 about because I guess the real

00:38:31.380 question underpinning this line

00:38:33.060 of discussion for me is where is

00:38:37.060 the line between their free

00:38:39.360 speech and harassment

00:38:41.940 intimidation things that are

00:38:43.940 actually against you know the

00:38:46.020 law or against what a

00:38:47.520 workplace should tolerate do you

00:38:48.820 see what I'm yeah I

00:38:49.740 understand I mean that's a big

00:38:50.620 that's a standard philosophical

00:38:52.420 question yeah and where do you

00:38:54.720 think that is when did they

00:38:55.920 cross the line with you do you

00:38:57.260 think

00:38:57.520 well I mean I don't I'm not I

00:39:04.140 don't I'm not necessarily that

00:39:05.400 clear in my own head about the

00:39:07.280 where exactly the line is in my

00:39:09.140 experience in philosophical

00:39:10.700 thinking generally lines are

00:39:12.140 blurry and there is no line and

00:39:14.460 there's a I'm an sort of

00:39:15.460 aristotelian I think context is

00:39:17.480 always relevant but um that's

00:39:19.700 quite a controversial position

00:39:20.960 well not for some philosophers

00:39:27.600 it really isn't that important

00:39:29.200 so I don't think he was talking

00:39:31.140 about philosophers but it doesn't

00:39:32.360 matter carry on but um I think

00:39:35.000 from the minute they put the man

00:39:36.260 well the posters I've personally

00:39:39.640 that crossed my line you know I

00:39:41.420 think again there's a sort of

00:39:43.060 failure of empathy um defensively

00:39:45.660 from my critics who just can't I

00:39:49.060 think they would not put up with

00:39:50.220 that in their own workplace was

00:39:52.260 it directed at them but they

00:39:53.460 expect me to but I also think

00:39:55.580 the manifesto the language of

00:39:56.780 the manifesto is threatening and

00:40:00.020 it's not you know rational debate

00:40:02.780 or even sort of vociferous

00:40:05.080 disagreement it's actually they

00:40:07.260 I don't think they even know what

00:40:08.620 I think on half these issues it's

00:40:10.540 just get her out it's more like

00:40:12.760 get the witch out right so we're

00:40:15.520 not I don't think people should be

00:40:16.980 in any doubt that this is some sort

00:40:18.440 of like you know academic dispute

00:40:21.340 gone a little bit wrong there's

00:40:23.400 nothing academic about this there's

00:40:25.180 something pretty primitive about

00:40:27.040 this it's like get that heretical

00:40:29.680 figure out of our environment you

00:40:32.080 know people are holding up signs

00:40:33.400 saying we were meant to be safe here

00:40:35.100 and yet nobody can explain why I made

00:40:37.680 them unsafe and I've been teaching

00:40:39.840 trans students reason you know with

00:40:42.180 that as far as I know perfectly

00:40:43.580 appropriately and professionally

00:40:44.580 throughout this whole thing so I'm

00:40:46.300 not making anyone unsafe and the

00:40:48.000 whole thing is based on a massive

00:40:49.560 misrepresentation of me my character

00:40:52.720 my views there's no evidence ever

00:40:55.220 really provided that's going to you

00:40:57.580 know convince anyone who isn't

00:40:59.440 already ideologically up to their

00:41:00.700 neck in it so yeah I don't know what

00:41:04.600 to say I mean it's not up to me

00:41:06.200 either to convince people that this

00:41:08.200 was you know take it if you don't

00:41:10.300 think if you look at this stuff and

00:41:11.780 you think this isn't a problem all

00:41:13.800 right I can't I can't change your mind

00:41:15.900 on that for me my line was crossed

00:41:18.240 and I was going part of the reason

00:41:20.480 that this story is so powerful is

00:41:22.820 because when I look at it it's for me

00:41:25.000 the story of a person who stands up and

00:41:28.020 says something which is rooted in fact

00:41:32.220 rooted in science common sense something

00:41:35.180 that we all know a tiny minority of

00:41:38.220 people then felt emboldened to go and

00:41:41.320 destroy them and we are where we are

00:41:44.620 and that's what we all fear we all

00:41:46.420 fear it everybody feels this fear now in

00:41:48.340 society whether they're going to get

00:41:49.900 dogpiled on Twitter whether they're

00:41:51.920 going to have their careers their

00:41:53.020 reputations tarnished etc etc it's very

00:41:56.400 much a story of our time isn't it I

00:41:58.180 think so yeah and you're right about the

00:41:59.640 tiny minority I mean it's not

00:42:01.540 representative of the majority at Sussex I

00:42:03.840 know that and I know most students don't

00:42:06.340 think like this even if this even

00:42:08.860 amongst those students who disagree

00:42:10.380 with me on the specifics they wouldn't

00:42:12.240 think this was the right way to go about

00:42:13.840 it and I think most colleagues are

00:42:15.300 horrified and yet in every institution

00:42:18.840 partly because of social media a small

00:42:23.020 number of people can have a very loud

00:42:25.540 and powerful chilling effect and you do

00:42:29.500 become frightened social ostracism is a

00:42:32.880 very powerful weapon like I think it's

00:42:35.020 probably hardwired into us to fear it

00:42:36.940 right because being a part of a tribe

00:42:39.240 strengthens you and being out on your

00:42:43.560 own clearly weakens you so yeah people

00:42:46.240 fear it well in the primitive condition

00:42:48.460 being ostracized from the tribe would

00:42:50.020 mean you would die yeah exactly and so

00:42:52.260 of course we fear it and by the way I

00:42:54.340 have a lot of empathy for your

00:42:55.440 situation again I was asking the

00:42:57.160 questions to get to the bottom of the

00:42:58.680 argument no but I feel it needs to be

00:43:01.760 said because even people who watch this

00:43:04.340 show which is people who are intelligent

00:43:06.920 and are approaching this conversation

00:43:08.480 from a sort of more enlightened place

00:43:10.560 even they sometimes oh you said this

00:43:12.540 that we've become very black and white in

00:43:14.300 society which I think speaks to your

00:43:15.760 case as well and I think Francis is

00:43:19.820 right and you're right when you say that

00:43:22.120 this is really you're the head on the

00:43:24.440 spike to tell everybody else not to do

00:43:29.140 this don't speak yeah and to some

00:43:31.240 extent I have you know I did leave so I

00:43:36.040 do worry that I've effectively made it

00:43:40.520 easier for similarly motivated people to

00:43:44.280 act this way in other universities I mean

00:43:47.680 academics are in this quite strange

00:43:50.000 position which they always were in but I

00:43:53.760 think it's supercharged by social media

00:43:55.340 and the ability of students now to small

00:43:57.440 numbers of students to organize really

00:43:58.840 quickly so we are there to basically say

00:44:03.340 what we think that's built into our job

00:44:05.100 description academic freedom is a value

00:44:08.160 it's written into the mission statement of

00:44:10.340 every British university but at the same

00:44:14.540 time universities are now in competition

00:44:17.360 with each other for students so they're

00:44:18.980 trying to like massage their images and

00:44:21.120 make themselves look as attractive to

00:44:23.600 students as possible and the students are

00:44:26.720 right there you know in your face so it's

00:44:30.180 a bit like a school although it's not a

00:44:31.820 school and of course they're adults but

00:44:33.300 they're young adults and they're still

00:44:35.600 finding their way in life a lot of them

00:44:36.860 so it can be quite a volatile mix if you're

00:44:41.040 saying something that some numbers of

00:44:43.820 students really object to so I think

00:44:47.040 that's a that's an interesting aspect of

00:44:49.980 this it's not you know now in it in a way

00:44:53.140 through leaving I've become freer to say

00:44:56.920 like I just said that I thought the ring

00:44:59.420 leaders were wankers and I do but I couldn't

00:45:03.760 really have said that I don't think and my

00:45:05.640 pedagogical role but I'm not a teacher

00:45:08.980 anymore so I can say that but I think so I

00:45:11.420 think we've got people left in universities

00:45:13.680 to get to my point who are increasingly

00:45:16.960 exposed to this and this has set an example

00:45:19.480 which so I hope basically universities have to

00:45:22.660 help these people they have to support them in

00:45:25.980 expressing controversial views but didn't

00:45:30.800 they do that with you they supported you and

00:45:33.180 still you were forced out

00:45:34.360 they supported me quite late on right I mean

00:45:39.880 I think if you're going to I think for a

00:45:44.220 university to support someone in my position

00:45:46.200 ideally you would identify quite early on

00:45:50.760 that they're a risk and that they are being

00:45:52.780 isolated and you would move various

00:45:55.060 structures in to psychologically support them

00:45:57.440 you would also look at your social media

00:45:59.600 policies now this is where you might say

00:46:01.320 are like this is an incursion to free speech

00:46:03.520 again but you know when you've got academics

00:46:05.940 sometimes more senior to you

00:46:08.040 on social media saying this person is a

00:46:12.460 bigot for saying this like no evidence no

00:46:15.600 argument just transphobe bigot they're like

00:46:19.440 a racist they're like an anti-semite etc

00:46:22.820 churning that out to students then I think

00:46:26.040 universities should look at that and say

00:46:28.360 okay our social media policies should not

00:46:30.420 allow people to just defame others in the

00:46:34.300 institution so and that's not just for the

00:46:37.940 sake of it it's because it has this effect on

00:46:39.980 the whole institution becomes paralyzed

00:46:41.720 because they're frightened that it's going

00:46:43.620 to happen to them it's a complicated

00:46:45.780 interactions between the speech of this lot

00:46:49.120 and the speech of that lot I do I'm not

00:46:50.780 underplaying that at all it's really a mess

00:46:53.000 to sort out but it is a problem we have to

00:46:55.120 address the thing that I I just can't get my

00:46:59.620 head around it this entire hashtag be kind

00:47:02.700 while screaming epithets at the opposite

00:47:05.520 side wishing to shut them down effectively

00:47:08.100 effectively destroying their lives let's

00:47:10.240 just call it what it is it's just trying to

00:47:12.520 destroy trying to destroy their lives yeah

00:47:14.220 it's trying to destroy their lives yeah yeah

00:47:16.840 but but how does that work well it works

00:47:19.940 partly because um kindness is not a

00:47:25.560 transparent value is it like there's a saying

00:47:28.800 you've got to be cruel to be kind you know so

00:47:30.460 like how exactly you are kind should be an

00:47:33.680 open question but kindness as a value tends

00:47:37.580 to be adopted by really narrow-minded people

00:47:41.140 who interpret it in ways that sort of are

00:47:44.600 self-serving basically so it's like a figly

00:47:46.440 for their own will to power basically so I

00:47:49.320 found it quite amusing at various times to

00:47:51.100 see that the my biggest most vociferous aggressive

00:47:54.460 sneering critics usually have like hashtag

00:47:57.160 empathy in their bios um but the whole um I

00:48:03.440 mean again a complicated story but activism

00:48:06.200 social justice activism is now being uh

00:48:09.000 rewarded professionally in universities like

00:48:12.480 you can say oh I'm on the equality diversity and

00:48:15.540 inclusion group in your promotion application and

00:48:17.700 that will be a good thing and you know there's

00:48:19.600 all these little power structures being folded

00:48:22.540 into the bureaucracy that allow individuals who

00:48:25.500 are not empathic or kind to use that language to

00:48:29.740 cloak their own ambition or envy or desire to get

00:48:35.720 ahead or whatever it is so yeah be kind be

00:48:39.480 inclusive these are very nebulous um vague vaguely

00:48:45.320 defined terms that can be interpreted in lots of

00:48:48.440 different ways can't they well once you've decided

00:48:50.700 that your opponents are nazis then the kind

00:48:53.240 thing to do for society is to destroy them

00:48:55.340 exactly now here's a question which is quite

00:48:59.380 controversial and I'd love to get your opinion

00:49:01.100 on it which is how much responsibility because

00:49:04.800 I'm all about responsibility should the gay rights

00:49:06.920 movement take for this when it comes to things like

00:49:09.620 stonewall they did a lot of great work in the 70s 80s

00:49:12.820 90s when gay people as you know better better than me

00:49:17.660 discriminated against we've now come to this point where

00:49:21.600 gay marriage widely celebrated and now we've come

00:49:25.740 to where we are now how much responsibility do you think that

00:49:30.160 people like stonewall etc should take for this

00:49:32.680 well I don't think that the original founders of stonewall should

00:49:36.300 take any responsibility for what's happened now because

00:49:38.420 they're not involved anymore I mean these organizations have a

00:49:42.240 rolling um kind of uh membership as it were in the trustees and

00:49:47.360 the management but the president and I actually you know

00:49:51.540 one at least one of the original founders simon fanshaw

00:49:55.300 has been very very critical of the direction that stonewall has taken

00:49:58.500 but the current incumbents and the recent ones like ruth hunt

00:50:02.720 I mean they've just set a bomb under lgbt solidarity because they have tried

00:50:08.940 to redefine what being lesbian and gay is in terms of gender identity not

00:50:14.200 attracts attraction to the same sex as you

00:50:17.440 and they did that and then wrote hashtag no debate

00:50:21.740 so lesbians like I just said were being are being told

00:50:27.040 you you know if you don't consider trans women as potential dating

00:50:32.420 partners you are prejudiced you need to think about that you know you

00:50:37.100 you need to examine your prejudices like no the whole point of being a lesbian

00:50:41.700 is that you don't fancy men males that's the point so um

00:50:47.460 now that's the the ordinary person's understanding of what gay is but that's

00:50:51.940 not the understanding that stonewall has anymore

00:50:53.980 um so they're in these multiple contradictions

00:50:57.620 and yeah they're like I say because of their

00:51:00.460 influence in British institutions they are

00:51:04.060 very responsible for a lot of this they they really

00:51:07.420 you know the t-shirts trans women are women get over it

00:51:10.600 from uh I don't know what 2015 onwards

00:51:13.680 uh trying to change the law around sex by deception

00:51:17.320 that's what one thing they've been trying to do so that

00:51:19.700 it's not a um

00:51:22.140 a crime or in any way wrong not to divulge your own sex

00:51:30.180 in sexual relations with a partner

00:51:32.360 that's in one of their manifestos

00:51:35.040 so you know that raises all sorts of questions

00:51:38.360 people want to know who they're going to put it

00:51:40.440 sorry to interrupt just to put it into

00:51:41.960 the ways that people can just see what you're talking about

00:51:44.260 if you go out on a night out and you meet another

00:51:46.960 woman and she happens I fucking hate this

00:51:51.000 you meet another person who claims that they're a woman

00:51:53.840 and has a penis

00:51:54.800 and you go home with it and doesn't tell you

00:51:57.840 like that's that's what you're talking about

00:52:00.340 that situation that would so if that proceeded in certain directions

00:52:03.920 that would count as um sex by deception

00:52:07.300 I mean there are laws that prohibit that

00:52:09.540 and that you are supposed to disclose um your sex

00:52:13.760 and that it's um there are there's precedent cases where

00:52:17.700 people have not disclosed their sex they pretended to be

00:52:20.600 of the opposite sex in a sexual encounter

00:52:23.020 and when the victim found out um that they were very traumatized

00:52:28.460 because that's not reflective of their own sexual orientation

00:52:31.200 and um what I'm saying is just one example of Stonewall's

00:52:37.620 sort of massive radical ambitions that in the 2015 document

00:52:42.620 a vision for change which has sort of set the agenda

00:52:45.060 for the next um so many years

00:52:48.140 changing the sex by deception laws was one of the things that they said

00:52:52.260 they wanted to do because they want to protect

00:52:54.580 the privacy of trans people is how they put it

00:52:57.300 so they're putting the privacy of trans people

00:52:59.660 construed as not having to explain who you are

00:53:03.580 uh and biologically above how the partners might feel

00:53:09.980 about that interaction that's just one example of the sorts of things

00:53:13.620 they were trying to do so yes

00:53:14.820 I do hold Stonewall responsible and then they said hashtag no debate

00:53:18.800 so it's just really really uh

00:53:21.200 I don't even know if they knew how radical

00:53:23.320 the things that they were saying were

00:53:26.040 let me ask you another possibly even more provocative question

00:53:29.680 because I was struck how at the very beginning of our interview

00:53:32.300 you were talking about biology

00:53:34.740 you were talking about how men and women are different

00:53:37.040 you were talking about the consequences of that

00:53:39.340 and those are things I agree with entirely

00:53:42.660 and I've always agreed with

00:53:44.200 but those are the things that

00:53:45.760 there was a period of time at least

00:53:47.420 until the trans issue started become coming to the fore

00:53:50.240 where there was a portion of feminists

00:53:53.540 who were very much attempting to undermine those very things

00:53:56.940 you you sort of I'm you're I'm happy for you to challenge me on that

00:54:01.520 no no I think you're right

00:54:02.460 what do you make of all of that

00:54:04.560 so I think um I mean I do talk about this a bit in in my book

00:54:10.700 but there was a time in feminism in the um

00:54:14.320 in the late 20th century

00:54:16.820 where um some feminists academic feminists in particular

00:54:22.060 would try and argue that womanhood was not the same thing as being female

00:54:27.040 and they weren't doing that with any kind of trans inclusivity in mind

00:54:31.760 they were doing that because they were trying to avoid fruitlessly I think

00:54:36.080 um the threat the political threat of what they what was called biological determinism

00:54:42.280 which is this view that your biology sort of determines what your aptitudes in life are

00:54:47.640 and your like whether you're good at housework education

00:54:50.960 whether you should stay home and look after children

00:54:52.880 and that was you know that's a conservative position that still exists in lots of places

00:54:58.080 but they thought they could get sort of avoid that threat by saying aha

00:55:01.860 but women aren't female

00:55:03.500 or they're only contingently female but you know it's an accident

00:55:08.320 womanhood is a social role that isn't necessarily attached to being female though quite often

00:55:13.820 the patriarchy forces us to do this because that's what men want

00:55:17.600 and so that that was one part of it

00:55:20.060 there were radical feminists who said that um

00:55:22.300 that exactly that that sort of the the femaleness itself was a construct

00:55:28.320 and maleness were constructions of patriarchy

00:55:31.000 and then there was the sort of um post-structurist version through Judith Butler

00:55:35.700 that said that heterosexuality was the construct was a social construction of patriarchy

00:55:41.760 or of um heteronormativity and you know I mean

00:55:45.040 I've now moved definitely moved into academic language

00:55:47.920 but the idea that is that you know the things that evolution basically hardwired into our species

00:55:52.540 are not in fact hardwired there they're socially produced

00:55:56.060 and because they're socially produced we could change them if we wanted

00:55:59.360 so there's nothing natural about males and females

00:56:02.360 and there's nothing natural about heterosexuality being the dominant sexual orientation for humans

00:56:07.480 um they would say

00:56:10.080 so insofar as feminists um went along with all that

00:56:15.780 then yes they did uh they maybe they didn't foresee that it would go this way

00:56:22.060 but they laid down some of the groundwork for this now

00:56:25.220 because it is the idea that everything's inherently fluid and flexible

00:56:28.260 except when it's innate you know I mean it never makes any sense really but

00:56:33.160 the reason I bring it up Kathleen sorry to interrupt is I think to me that's a textbook example

00:56:37.420 of why you should never pursue political advantage through lying

00:56:41.680 that why it's important to look at the facts even if they are uncomfortable or unpleasant to you

00:56:47.760 in that moment because it will end up being used against you at some point

00:56:50.420 well I mean I'm sure it's true you shouldn't but I don't think they thought they were lying

00:56:53.980 um I mean they they thought they did believe that everything was socially constructed

00:56:58.440 they had arguments that led them to those conclusions the arguments were terrible

00:57:02.340 and ignored the data but they believed them

00:57:04.540 well they ignored the data but it also had they did have a story about how the data was not the

00:57:09.120 thing they should be paying attention to because science itself was a construction you know on

00:57:13.760 this view so everything's a construction so they can become very skeptical about when people say oh

00:57:18.640 um evidence has shown us because they think that that's political as well and politically constructed

00:57:26.300 so I mean I I know what you're saying and I agree with you but I do also don't like the collapse

00:57:32.880 um it's a part of the polarization in this area to to you know people could be wrong without lying

00:57:38.160 it's true it's true I look and by the way I'm not actually trying to make it like

00:57:43.380 the feminist got at all I just to me truth is a sacred value it really is

00:57:49.820 we're right they think they're they think they're saying something true too

00:57:52.560 I know but you've got the problem is that yes they thought they were saying it but the system

00:57:58.640 they created presupposes the non-existence of truth by default if everything is if everything

00:58:03.740 is the patriarchy then nothing is the patriarchy and nothing is true okay well you're going a bit

00:58:09.740 fast but yeah I will concede that they they would think the notion of truth itself was suspect mind

00:58:13.960 you if you say it's sacred it makes it sound like you're adopting kind of quasi-religious attitude

00:58:18.540 towards it and that's not necessarily great either oh it's an interesting philosophical argument I'm

00:58:23.240 not uh do you mind if I carry on with this no no no you crack on mate no I'm so so what I mean when

00:58:29.680 I say it's sacred is I mean that it should never be sacrificed for other things in political discourse

00:58:35.600 at least we should never say that something is true but because it's unpleasant uncomfortable

00:58:40.140 difficult it leads us down paths we don't want to go down we should therefore pretend it isn't true

00:58:45.220 do you see what I'm saying that's what I mean yeah I see what you're saying absolutely I mean I do

00:58:48.520 think I'm not sure I agree with you I just don't know exactly where I stand on that but I know

00:58:52.360 there are plenty of truths that are sort of uninteresting boring and then there are some

00:58:56.900 truths so this is where I probably differ from you but there are some truths that I can see why

00:59:01.760 if we focused on them exclusively um and particularly with certain sort of interpretive slants

00:59:07.820 they would cause a lot of harm so given the con given the the wider context like I said everything's

00:59:14.500 in a context so you can't just take one particular truth you have to look about how it's going to be

00:59:19.740 disseminated who's going to hear about it how they're going to interpret it what else is going on

00:59:23.920 and and they you know truths can be co-opted into politically detrimental strategies and that's why

00:59:29.820 people are worried about the things that I say but it's um I don't think you're going to find an all

00:59:35.860 or nothing position on this I think it's quite obvious that we need to talk about biology

00:59:39.320 quite obvious because it's just so important across a range of domains

00:59:43.140 but that's why I'm making a point of this Kathleen because I think

00:59:47.780 that is where the trans issue comes from as you just said it's the desire to achieve

00:59:55.860 particular political objectives or social objectives by okay maybe they the people who

01:00:03.860 went after you thought that they were on the side of truth and right and whatever right

01:00:07.000 but you've got to you've got to get to a point where you you're not willing to sacrifice what

01:00:14.640 is objectively true for the sake of your political ideology it's less the case when I'm you know I

01:00:20.260 agree with you about focusing on on a particular truth that paints the picture that you want to

01:00:24.120 paint what I mean in this case is sacrificing truth deliberately in order to achieve your political

01:00:29.900 aim I mean I I don't disagree with you I talk in my book about fiction because I think it's a

01:00:35.720 fiction that you can change sex um and I say well look there's a role for fiction in people's lives

01:00:40.780 at an individual level we pick up books we go to the movies we imagine ourselves we daydream you know

01:00:47.140 people fiction is a totally normal natural part of human life and for some people who have

01:00:53.460 profound gender dysphoria it's helpful to engage in the fiction that they are of the opposite sex

01:01:01.000 but what where the problems come in I mean problems come in at the range of children

01:01:05.960 um which we can talk about separately but where problems come in is where we're compelled

01:01:10.680 institutionally to to basically go along with that fiction and at that point truth has been

01:01:16.880 sacrificed and and then we have all the problems that we are now seeing and we are where we are where

01:01:22.380 truth is being sacrificed what do you think is going to be the future for universities and academic

01:01:27.640 institutions that's a big question that I don't know I mean I think um it's an interesting time

01:01:36.760 and I want to see how they respond to this sort of problem um my worry is that they just don't see

01:01:45.340 that they've got a problem because they're in a kind of crouch position and um a lot of the values in

01:01:52.240 in the name of which this is being all being prosecuted as we've said are things like kindness

01:01:56.680 inclusion equality and they all sound great um so the danger is that university managers who are not

01:02:04.000 deep thinkers quite often at the best of times think well how could this be wrong and and and basically

01:02:10.660 the whole hr section with sector within universities is becoming moralized in very narrow directions

01:02:17.540 through lobbying groups through benchmarks through kite marking schemes through you know all these kind of

01:02:24.280 um boxes that they hl want to take in order to establish that they are a good place to work and a good

01:02:31.600 place to study so um i think academic managers really have to get a handle on how that might be having an

01:02:40.220 effect on what could be permissibly said within those institutions what ideas may permissibly be had and explored

01:02:46.500 and ideally just get any kind of overt moralization out of management and out of the bureaucracy

01:02:53.060 because it would just free up a lot of space because we've got like vice chancellors participating in

01:02:58.560 stonewall um activities you know that just sends a message right across the whole university that

01:03:06.700 gender identity is to be affirmed because that is stonewall's position

01:03:10.120 kathleen it's been an absolutely brilliant interview before before before you ask the last

01:03:16.020 question okay i've got a couple more a couple more quick ones not the philosophical ones actually

01:03:20.540 but more uh sort of societal and also personal what have you learned from this experience

01:03:27.500 and what should we learn as a society from this experience that you've had

01:03:32.680 what have i learned i've learned so much about human nature that's for sure um i've learned well i've

01:03:43.160 learned that um i've learned what solidarity is in the sense that um women in particular across the uk

01:03:55.800 um and grassroots organizations have supported me and kept me going and if it wasn't for them i could

01:04:02.160 never have done any of this but i've also learned what solidarity isn't uh within institutions

01:04:08.560 and i've learned that it's really solidarity is really important if if if basically other academics

01:04:15.580 had come out much earlier and stood beside me and either said we agree with her because lots of them do

01:04:20.740 or at least she should have a perfect right to say all this we wouldn't be where we are but basically

01:04:25.960 ostracism the mechanisms for ostracism destroy solidarity and those two things

01:04:30.400 you know are antithetical to each other so with more demonstrated solidarity amongst people there would

01:04:37.420 be less ostracism but ostracism will thrive where there's no solidarity if that makes sense so

01:04:44.840 i've just learned the importance of basically standing up and saying

01:04:48.620 yeah i'm with her or him at crucial times because it sends this message and if people don't do that

01:04:56.000 then you really are on your own well i've said this a lot a lot of the time you know the cancel culture

01:05:01.760 thing only really works because they go after people who are vulnerable i say many of the same things that

01:05:08.840 you say and no one goes after me because they can't do anything to me well exactly and now i'm out of

01:05:12.780 universities i feel like i said i i am aware of that that i mean i'm not saying that i'm not still

01:05:18.800 really annoying but what can they do now because they've done it so they've shot their bolt but while

01:05:24.280 i was there and you know it's not a coincidence they go after women far more than they go after

01:05:28.360 men because there's plenty of men within universities even that say um some of the things i say anyway and

01:05:34.320 don't get half as much flack so yeah the whole we're all set up to work out i'm sure that's hard

01:05:39.260 why too who's the most vulnerable person who's the weakest who can we pick off and we know um we can

01:05:45.860 judge so yeah that's why it's crucial for men to get involved actually and i think a lot of men think

01:05:52.240 that they shouldn't that it's not their business that somehow they haven't got any skin in the game

01:05:56.180 and they don't want to be accused of mansplaining i say come in we love mansplaining away for god's sake

01:06:04.740 well what a great note to end the interview on kathleen thank you so much for coming on it's been a

01:06:10.600 pleasure obviously you know i've been through a sort of public thing much smaller level than you and i

01:06:17.400 know how painful and difficult that is so all credit to you for conducting yourself with the calm

01:06:22.020 and this the sort of gentleness as well that is needed not to inflame things and just to get your

01:06:28.500 message across and to be reasonable and to be calm and to be rational really really commend you for

01:06:34.080 that thank you and thanks for coming on the show we've got just one more question for you before we

01:06:37.700 go to our locals questions which is what is the one thing we're not talking about but we really should

01:06:42.380 be i don't know i'm afraid i i think i've said it all okay all right fantastic fantastic kathleen if

01:06:50.160 people want to find you online where is the best place to do that uh well i've got a website

01:06:54.340 kathleenstock.com which basically just lots of links to lots of interviews and stuff i've written

01:06:59.860 and i'm on twitter docstock with the two k's at the end excellent and people should get your book

01:07:07.840 which is material girls yes i have a book material girls and it's been out stock but it's been reprinted

01:07:12.960 so it's now back on back in the show back in stock yeah uh good uh i'm sure you've heard that before

01:07:18.400 look uh thank you so much for coming on and thank you guys for watching and listening at home we'll

01:07:23.140 see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or raw show all of them go out 7pm

01:07:28.300 uk time and if you want your trigonometry on the go it's also available as a podcast take care and see

01:07:33.240 you soon guys we hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview remember to subscribe and hit the bell

01:07:40.600 button so that you never miss another fantastic episode and if you believe that the work we do here

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TRIGGERnometry - November 22, 2021

Kathleen Stock - Hounded Out for Trans Views

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