00:01:44.220even though I hadn't spoken on behalf of the Fire Brigade Union,
00:01:47.320there was no mention of the Fire Brigade Union,
00:01:49.040I was speaking on behalf of Trade Unionists against the EU,
00:01:51.580which is a group I've been involved with for a long time.
00:01:54.180I had acted in a way prejudicial to the interests of the union and I was kicked out of office and banned from holding office again for two years.
00:02:04.660So despite the fact that there has historically been a really rich tradition within the Fire Brigades Union of open debate and people being allowed to express their view,
00:02:12.580particularly when they're doing it in a personal capacity, this was pretty much an unprecedented move.
00:02:19.580And it's disappointing because I've been an FPU official for 20 years.
00:03:03.760I mean, obviously, if you are an official for a trade union, particularly when you're in a senior capacity,
00:03:08.420then when you're acting in your capacity as a union official, you have to represent the union's position,
00:03:13.980or at least to explain what the union's position is.
00:03:20.060But as I say, it's a rich tradition, not just within the FPU,
00:03:23.300but in the trade union movement generally,
00:03:25.380that if you're not acting in your union capacity,
00:03:27.740you're free to express your own view in your own personal time.
00:03:31.400So, for example, when there are trade union meetings,
00:03:34.180it's not uncommon to see flyers for that meeting
00:03:37.120where trade union officials are speaking,
00:03:40.220but they're not necessarily putting the union views.
00:03:43.000So you'll have in brackets after their name, personal capacity, interpersonal capacity.
00:03:47.460That's very, very common in the trade union movement.
00:03:51.080And as I say, you know, it's always been very much a feature of my trade union previously that we had the freedom to do that.
00:03:57.460But on this occasion, they decided that no criticising leaders of the labour movement for their position on Brexit was wrong and worthy of being kicked out of office.
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00:13:38.740at the princess of wells theater get tickets at mirvish.com
00:13:42.740and how much responsibility does momentum need to type for all this
00:13:47.840Well, I mean, I'm not somebody who says that we should be sectarian about it. We should seek to drum these people out of the party. You know, in some respects, I wasn't particularly anti-Corbyn, to be honest. I mean, I think on the question of austerity, he was absolutely right that austerity was a political choice and not an economic necessity.
00:14:10.920I think previous Labour leadership had shied away from making that case.
00:14:16.720And in fact, in terms of the economics of it, which was sort of demonised as a sort of hard left Marxist sort of Soviet style economics, actually, it was just broadly a Keynesian sort of philosophy, which you see really in some of the social democratic countries in Scandinavia, for example.
00:14:35.880So on that side of things, I don't think necessarily he was wrong at all.
00:14:41.820Momentum, I think, in some respects, brought a lot of energy to the party, brought a lot of campaigning ideas to the party, brought a lot of enthusiasm to the party.
00:14:52.920I don't think we need a civil war, a sectarian war.
00:14:56.520I just ask politely that these people realize that they got it fundamentally wrong and that their prescriptions for leading us to power have been proven to be disastrous.
00:15:09.200the strategies they employed, have absolutely crashed and burned.
00:15:14.360And actually to show a little bit of respect to those of us on the other side of the argument
00:15:18.200who have called it riot and said this was going to happen when everyone was telling us in the party,
00:15:23.580no, you're exaggerating, you've got an outdated view of the working class,
00:15:26.920you're just peddling a sort of nativist reactionary line.
00:15:31.340And I remember standing up at Labour Party fringe meetings, for example,
00:15:34.740and in trade union meetings within the Labour movement and saying to people,
00:15:38.680I'm telling you that we are creating a huge schism with our heartlands and it's going to cause a calamity and a massive rupture at a future general election sometime soon.
00:15:48.840And people looking bewildered that anyone could even argue that because they mistook the sort of internal enthusiasm in the party and the fact that we were now a mass membership party with half a million members and there was this vibrancy and energy within the party as, you know, almost like a microcosm of what was going on in the country.
00:16:07.860And it really wasn't. And that's the danger of all political parties. You end up speaking to your own membership and looking at your own membership as a reflection of broader society. And the failure on that has been absolutely huge. And people have got to start recognizing it in the party.
00:16:23.580And where does the Labour Party go from here? I mean, we've talked about kind of how we are, where we are with Matt Goodwin, with Eric Kaufman, and you've just spent a good chunk of time laying it out. Where does the Labour Party go from here? Because it seems to me that one of the difficulties is creating a coalition between this kind of metropolitan, degree-educated elite and the traditional working-class heartlands.
00:16:50.580is very difficult because culturally the value systems are so different.
00:16:55.180So does the Labour Party now have to make a choice?
00:16:57.760Does it become a party of the liberal metropolitan elite
00:17:00.380or a party of the traditional working class?
00:17:02.840Is there a way to bring those two groups together?
00:17:04.840How does the Labour Party survive, I mean, frankly, at this point?
00:17:09.100I think there is a way to bring them together.
00:17:11.900And in fact, whenever Labour has won power in the past,
00:17:17.800So my view is, for any political party, you have to start with your base, your core vote, and then build outwards.
00:17:24.960And for Labour, if you look at the history of the Labour Party, its core vote is working class people.
00:17:31.240You know, that's who it was set up to represent in those, you know, some of those constituencies we listed that have now gone Tory.
00:17:39.700That's where you start as a Labour Party.
00:17:41.480Now, Labour will only succeed electorally, in my view, and has historically only succeeded electorally when it's been able to maintain the trust of its core vote at the same time as appealing to a sufficient layer of, if you like, more middle class, more liberal, less tribal voters.
00:18:03.940And I'm certainly not somebody who says that the path to victory in the future for the Labour Party is just to appeal exclusively to the old industrial working class.
00:18:16.620That, you know, what we've got to do is appeal to the people in the Don Valleys and the Bolsovers and that's it.
00:18:23.720Actually, you know, I think it's good that we can win other places like Canterbury and Kensington and places like that.
00:18:30.240I think the problem has been, certainly more recently, is that we have won some of those other places at the expense, if you like, of the traditional working class areas.
00:18:41.060And that's because as a party, we have become so obsessed with one part of that equation, which is the sort of middle class liberal part of the equation, whilst almost ignoring the sort of more traditional working class part of the equation.
00:18:57.180And I think that that a big reason for that is because the party itself, the composition of the party, the demographic of the party has changed so significantly over recent years.
00:19:06.720I've been in the party for 25 years. And actually, in my time, the party's changed hugely.
00:19:12.540I mean, there was a time where, you know, you go to Labour Party conferences, for example, and there would be, you know, strong working class voices there, people who had come up through the trade union movement, manual workers, blue collar workers who are now trade unionists and ordinary grassroots members of constituency Labour parties.
00:19:32.400going to Labour Party conference. Over the years, those voices have become fewer and fewer,
00:19:39.540and the more dominant voices have become those sort of middle class, like woke, sort of liberal,
00:19:45.440cosmopolitan voices, to the degree now where you go to Labour Party conferences and you just
00:19:50.920realise that it really isn't a reflection of the country at large. 77% of the party
00:19:58.280come from the sort of ABC1 middle-class social grade.
00:20:04.360The party has got hardly any roots now in many of those constituencies,
00:20:09.520those sort of working-class constituencies.
00:20:11.260So unless the party can find a way of shifting the emphasis, if you like,
00:20:19.620from the sort of middle-class, liberal, globalist, cosmopolitan, city-based element of it,
00:20:27.620back to, you know, the traditional working class areas
00:20:32.640and trying to build a coalition, you know, as I say,
00:20:35.540build from your base and work out rather than, you know,
00:20:53.660I think there's a danger it becomes a permanent protest movement.
00:20:56.100And the signs since the election are not good.
00:21:01.120You know, if you look at some of the front runners for the Labour leadership, I think they've got nothing against them personally, but I think they're everything that's wrong with the Labour Party to a certain degree.
00:21:10.740You know, I've pitched it as we've become all Hampstead and not enough Hartlepool over recent years.
00:21:15.960And I think if you look at people like Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry and Clive Lewis, those people are not going to win back some of those constituencies that we need to win back.
00:21:26.040What about Rebecca Long-Bailey? Because she thought that Corbyn's leadership was 10 out of 10.
00:21:30.520Yeah, she's the one more heave candidate. That's the truth of it. And again, nothing personal.
00:21:36.220I'm sure she's a very decent, principled woman. But the idea that we just didn't try hard enough and we didn't push hard enough.
00:21:50.860And these people really are on board with what we're arguing.
00:21:54.960We just need, you know, one more heave.
00:21:56.600We just need to redouble our efforts, I think, is delusional.
00:21:59.920There needs to be a fundamental rethinking of what the party is about and what it stands for.
00:22:06.360There needs to be a change in emphasis.
00:22:08.140There needs to be a change in language.
00:22:09.740We've got to stop going to places and speaking about issues that are not what I would call sort of solar plexus issues.
00:22:17.520and they're not issues that hit voters in the gut when you talk about them
00:22:20.860because they really resonate with them.
00:22:23.020So, for example, Labour activists will obsess and talk incessantly
00:22:26.900about things like climate change and human rights and gender fluidity
00:22:33.140and LGBT issues and migrant rights and stuff like that.
00:22:37.320I'm not saying those things don't have their place.
00:22:39.400Of course, those things need to be discussed.
00:22:41.320But for many Labour activists, it seems to be all they want to talk about.
00:22:44.400Because if you go to some of those communities where we lost, the things that people want to talk about are the things that actually really matter to them.
00:22:54.020They want to talk about law and order.
00:22:56.700They want to talk about immigration and the impacts of immigration.
00:22:59.920They want to talk about having a welfare system that is based more around the principle of reciprocity, you know, something for something rather than universal entitlement.
00:23:07.420which issues actually that once upon a time were the labour movement broadly
00:23:13.120was entirely comfortable speaking about because these were working class issues
00:23:16.980and the Labour Party represented working class people.
00:23:19.960But when you speak to labour activists about those issues now,
00:23:23.780they'll either sort of look down and shuffle their shoes in embarrassment
00:23:26.440or they just dismiss you as some sort of bigger, and it's a huge problem in the past.
00:23:31.640I'm sorry to interrupt, but I would love to, please record that,
00:23:35.720A Labour activist talking about gender fluidity in Hartlepool.
00:24:01.960And that's why they presumably they won those seats and they won those people because they're actually speaking the language of of that group of people.
00:24:10.900They got it. They got it. Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson got it totally.
00:24:15.360And it pains me to say I am a bitter opponent of Boris Johnson.
00:24:19.740Boris, I'm a firefighter and Boris Johnson closed 10 of our fire stations in London a few years ago when he was mayor of London.
00:24:25.260And we fought and campaigned against him. And Boris Johnson has got no time for trade unions.
00:24:31.960Boris Johnson is somebody who sits on the complete opposite side of the political spectrum to me.
00:24:38.240But he understood, and I think more pertinently, Dominic Cummings behind the scenes understood that actually there was Matthew Goodwin,
00:24:47.660one of your former guests, has described it as a sweet spot in British politics.
00:24:50.940And I think he's right, which is a place where millions of people are.
00:24:56.080And until now, most mainstream parties just weren't getting it, which is where people, yes, sit on the left economically.
00:25:05.440So they're very happy to have a party that says, actually, the gap between rich and poor is too wide.
00:25:10.300We need to close it. Actually, there's a lack of investment in some of our regions.
00:25:14.320And we need to have a government that intervenes and invests in infrastructure, you know, government that sort of raises the minimum wage, for example, government that addresses those regional inequalities.
00:25:25.420a government that is tough on some of the ballroom scandals
00:25:40.740What the Tories got this time around and what Labour hasn't got for years
00:25:43.940is that those people are also, if you like, cultural traditionalists
00:25:49.260and want not just economic security and fairness,
00:25:52.020but cultural security, cultural stability as well,
00:25:54.600Not in a, which some people would describe as some sort of xenophobic, nativist, white supremacist sort of way.
00:26:03.280That's the level of debate with some people.
00:26:06.420But actually just the type of politics where their sense of place is respected, their sense of belonging is respected.
00:26:12.380They don't like the negative effects of globalization in the way that, you know, it can uproot communities.
00:26:18.860It can deracinate communities and families and it just leaves them, you know, leaves them scattered to the four winds.
00:26:26.380And, you know, they like stability and tradition and custom.
00:26:32.320So if you like, you know, people are left when it comes to economics and a bit right when it comes to culture and social policy.
00:26:40.760And the Tories, I think, exploited that perfectly.
00:26:43.800And that's why, you know, after after 10 years of Tory austerity, they were still able to go into those communities and win and win Labour votes.
00:26:52.560Now, I think the problem for the Labour Party is that there are so few people, first, who understand that analysis and second, are actually prepared to do something about it.
00:27:05.620So, you know, I talked about the I talked about the leadership election.
00:27:08.680I mean, so far as some of the candidates are talking about, at least Anandi is one, for example, who's articulating some of these ideas, you get the feeling that it doesn't really come from the gut, that actually it's just really a hard-headed assessment of where we need to be to get Labour back to power.
00:27:26.220Now, OK, at least she's talking about it, but we need people in the party at the top level of the party and at the grassroots of the party who get this from the gut, if you like.
00:27:38.400And the only way to do that is to have a much greater sort of influence within the party from those working class communities.
00:27:44.340But the truth is people, traditional Labour voters, tribal Labour voters or once upon a time tribal Labour voters in these communities now look at the party more and more and say, actually, the leadership of the party, the membership of the party doesn't look like me, doesn't speak like me, doesn't work in jobs like me, doesn't understand, you know, my priorities.
00:28:04.000Why should I vote for them? And that chasm is going to be very, very difficult to close.
00:28:37.380Well, presumably then it's a big problem
00:28:38.960that Labour seems like it's moving towards that direction
00:28:41.920where they're increasingly talking to a smaller and smaller sliver of society.
00:28:46.140Yeah, I think there are people in the Labour Party
00:28:47.560who would be comfortable with just being a protest movement, to be honest.
00:28:53.720It's a very unappealing mix now, the Labour Party,
00:28:56.840of what I would sort of describe as, on the one hand,
00:29:01.320a sort of very middle-class, woke, liberal contingent,
00:29:07.420liberal cosmopolitan contingent on the one hand and on the other through momentum and other sort
00:29:16.080of organizations a more sort of far left I would call a bit of a toy town revolutionary group of
00:29:24.320people and I've sort of described it as a party of Lenin and Lenin John Lenin which really you know
00:29:34.180It doesn't resonate with ordinary working class people at all in many respects.
00:29:40.200And there are people, particularly from the sort of second part of that equation,
00:29:45.840the sort of far left revolutionary type of that equation,
00:29:50.180you know, lots of students, for example, who are in their early years of political activity
00:29:55.840and are quite enthused by going out and shouting at Tory MPs and protesting on the streets.
00:30:02.680And, you know, we've all been there and done it. But actually, if you if you're serious about it, you have to recognize that if you're serious about winning power, it's about compromise.
00:30:12.100It's about recognizing that sometimes you might be wrong on stuff and being prepared to reflect on stuff, not just trying to dismiss the fact that working class people don't agree with you as false consciousness.
00:30:22.120and being prepared to sort of take the hard decisions
00:30:27.120and make the tough ideological leaps sometimes
00:30:31.280to realise what it needs to take power.
00:30:33.780But, you know, that element of the party,
00:31:19.680But I'm just going to get drunk and have a laugh about it.
00:31:22.540You know, you're not a serious, you're not a serious political player.
00:31:25.420And you're actually letting down the people you claim to be speaking for.
00:31:28.220Isn't the problem here, Paul, that we've had a busy day.
00:31:31.400As you know, we interviewed Eric Kaufman earlier today and Luke Kittes as well.
00:31:35.480I mean, one of the things that Eric was talking about is essentially it's very difficult for
00:31:39.000someone like yourself or the views that you represent to get to a high prominent position
00:31:45.320now in the Labour Party, because the woke fringe and also that momentum fringe essentially would
00:31:51.380immediately destroy anyone who moves to the right on culture and talks about immigration and family
00:31:57.420and all that kind of stuff as racist, nativist, etc. So if the solution, which the consensus
00:32:04.340seemed to be the solution to Labour's problems, is a center-left person who's maybe culturally on
00:32:11.020the socially conservative side of things, economically, could be quite far left, actually,
00:32:14.520depending on how you look at it, that person cannot succeed in the Labour Party as it's constituted
00:32:20.260because they would never get anywhere with those views. I think that's a fair assessment. I mean,
00:32:26.120and that's why I've said that I think the Labour Party could be out of power for at least 10 years
00:32:31.040and may not actually ever be a party of government again, because I'm not convinced that within the
00:32:37.180party, you know, lie enough people who understand this and are willing to do something about it.
00:32:45.540Now, in truth, there's no real alternative at the moment. I mean, I certainly would never
00:32:52.500recommend that working class people vote Tory. And I certainly would never recommend that we
00:32:56.280all go off and join the Tory party because that's not, in my view, the answer to the problems of
00:33:00.220working class people and the economic inequalities and social injustices in society. But no, we need
00:33:06.680to find ways within the party, A, to develop the argument and to win the argument and to
00:33:11.420bring people into the party or back into the party who have abandoned the party to support
00:33:17.540that argument. I mean, my view is that for the moment, the movement is still supporting
00:33:23.320the Labour Party. So the trade union movement, which is ostensibly at least the voice of
00:33:28.200workers in this country, still supports the Labour Party. And for as long as the movement
00:33:34.000is there, and for as long as the workers see the Labour Party as, or at least the trade unions see
00:33:41.440the Labour Party as their party, rather than any other party, that's where the argument is going to
00:33:46.180be. Political parties that have been set up with the idea of storming to power have not traditionally
00:33:54.260had much success in this country. It's been tried with the SDP and other organisations over the
00:34:01.420years, but we're still pretty much a two-party state in that way. So out of the two, I much
00:34:10.220prefer a Labour government than a Tory government. I think part of the problem as well around what
00:34:14.980you talked about is the lack of MPs who come from that working class background now. I mean,
00:34:20.920if you went back 20 or 30 years ago, you would see on the Labour side of the house a significant
00:34:26.500number of people who can genuinely claim to come from working class backgrounds would have done
00:34:32.340ordinary jobs. You know, some of the older working class MPs would have, you know, worked in the
00:34:38.220shipyards or down the mines or in the steelworks and things like that. Now, obviously, we've gone
00:34:43.720through de-industrialization, so a lot of those jobs don't exist anymore. But even so, the proportion
00:34:50.560of MPs who come through on what I've called that conveyor belt, if you like, where they go to
00:34:55.800university and then they get a job in a think tank or a charity and then as a research assistant
00:35:01.100to an MP and then they're parachuted into into a safe seat themselves and consequently have no real
00:35:07.400understanding of the lives of ordinary of ordinary working class people that has become a problem
00:35:12.220because as I said working class people look at those those people say we just don't share the
00:35:17.040same background we don't share the same priorities I mean there are still people in the party who do
00:35:23.260get it. You know, I'm involved with the Blue Labour group within the party. It's small,
00:35:28.640but it punches above its weight. And it's been completely vindicated by recent events.
00:35:34.600You know, within Blue Labour, we've been arguing for some time now that this was going to happen.
00:35:39.540And, you know, Blue Labour has been talking the language of family, the language of patriotism,
00:35:45.880the language of community, isn't afraid to discuss issues around immigration.
00:35:49.920um so you know hopefully some of that stuff can break through but even even with that you see the
00:35:55.480response to you know since the election blue labor's taken off to a certain degree i mean
00:36:00.680thousands more followers on on social media and people are starting to take an interest in its
00:36:04.480ideas um but even around that you see some people in the party saying you know we don't hand the
00:36:09.480over to these racists and you know and and you realize you know what you know what distance there
00:36:15.560is to there is to travel but but what else can you do but have a go but so you're saying blue
00:36:20.640labour now that is a term that i've heard used and explain what blue labour is what your modus
00:36:26.480operandi is essentially and how you differ from the modern day labour party so i heard someone
00:36:32.080say once it was a very good description that blue labour is socialism with a small c and i think
00:36:38.700it's a pretty good way of describing it so so it's some people call it blairism and absolutely not
00:36:44.940Blue Labour were amongst Blair's strongest critics because of his infatuation with the market.
00:36:53.740So it's certainly not Blairite in that respect, but it's not particularly Corbynite either,
00:37:00.400although it's expressed a lot of sympathy, quite rightly, in my view, with some of the
00:37:05.140sort of economics around Corbynism and the need to tackle austerity and stuff.
00:37:10.640But it's a group of people who actually understand that we are social and parochial beings with an attachment to community and to country and to family.
00:37:24.660And that if you violate that, whether it's through having an unfettered market where vast movements of capital which can leave destruction in its wake, where money can just fly abroad and you see de-industrialization, etc.
00:37:44.340on the one hand or you know vast movements of people on the other which are brought about
00:37:51.300through you know an unregulated market and through the philosophy of open borders and
00:37:56.180liberal cosmopolitanism that can also violate people's sense of community and sense of stability
00:38:01.960and that if you're going to do these things if you're going to if you're going to bring on
00:38:06.220changing communities and change will always happen in communities no community is ever going to stay
00:38:10.020the same and if that's what anyone's arguing for then they're in for a nasty surprise change will
00:38:14.080happen. People will move on. Capitalism is a system where you're not going to stop that
00:38:18.900change to a certain degree. But what you can do is have measures to ameliorate it. And
00:38:23.540what you can do is make sure it's done in such a way where people's sense of place and
00:38:29.120belonging is not violated. And that's something that people within the Labour Party and beyond
00:38:34.760just have not understood. So Blue Labour is trying to articulate some of those arguments
00:38:39.440that we don't want an unregulated, all-dominant market on the one hand. We don't particularly
00:38:45.540want an overbearing state on the other hand. We want politics to be much more about community,
00:38:50.720much more democratic, rooted in our local democratic institutions. And also, you've got
00:38:56.040to respect people's place and belonging and community. I'm going to ask you quite a grim
00:39:01.420question now, Paul. I listened to that. And as a voter, if you put that forward to me,
00:44:22.760But A, there was such a desire to get rid of the Tories in 97 that a donkey could have stood as a Labour Party leader and become prime minister, frankly.
00:44:31.080And I think for a number of years after that, the Tories were such a shambles that it was pretty easy for Labour to carry on winning victories.
00:44:41.000But even if you look at that period, that sort of 10 years of Blairism and three years of Gordon Brown, you saw the stats prove that actually there was a drip, drip away of votes from Labour.
00:44:55.340I mean, fair enough, it started from a high watermark in 1997 when it had a huge landslide.
00:44:59.540But nonetheless, it shed millions of voters, including working class voters, up until 2010 when Cameron came to power with the coalition.
00:45:08.980And that was, I think, because some of this stuff around their philosophy of being pro-EU, being sort of uber-liberal, becoming a party of the cities and the middle class metropolitan elite, the Hampstead rather than Hartlepool, had started to kick in during that period.
00:45:27.840And I think what happened in 2016 didn't come out of a clear blue sky.
00:45:32.720It had been brewing for years and some of that stuff can be traced back to Blair.
00:45:36.140So the idea that, you know, you just set up a new Change UK or you try and push the Labour Party back in that direction, I think is a non-starter.
00:46:50.160Yeah. Well, Paul, it's been a great chatting to you again.
00:46:55.580The last question we normally ask is what's the one thing no one's talking about that we should be talking about?
00:46:59.840But actually, the question I want to ask you is, I mean, I have to say the most common comment on our previous interview with you, other than all our female viewers saying how much they like you, was the fact that a lot of people were saying, well, if this guy represented the Labour Party, I'd vote for him.
00:47:17.980And frankly, I don't agree with you on economics on probably most of things, but I'd vote for you.
00:47:24.340So are you planning to stand at any point for Parliament?
00:47:28.240That's Constantine flirting with you, by the way.
00:47:30.760I'm just doing the same thing as the ladies, that's all.
00:47:53.660And I don't think that large parts of the party want people like me, whether it's me or someone else, putting these ideas at the higher levels of the party or in Parliament, because I think they are just so uncomfortable with them.
00:48:07.840And it just, you know, it just runs completely up against their own philosophy that they would that they would hate the idea of Paul Embry being in Parliament speaking on behalf of the Labour Party.
00:48:22.440So I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
00:48:24.600To me, that's a huge problem to me, Paul.
00:48:27.480The fact that that is the case is a huge problem for the Labour Party.
00:48:30.860I mean, as you say, until someone like you can stand for the Labour Party and be elected as an MP or even prime minister, frankly, I don't see how they're ever going to win back the country.
00:48:42.020I just don't see that as possible because what you represent is the views of millions of people up and down the country.
00:48:47.880and if they can't have someone like you even present
00:49:40.500No, I don't think he would be Blue Labour.
00:49:42.160I think certainly on some of the economic stuff,
00:49:44.580You know, he would have, Blue Labour and Corbyn would have a lot of sympathy with each other.
00:49:48.880I don't think Corbyn gets the sort of cultural side of it at all.
00:49:53.740I think partly because he's embedded in his Linton constituency and he's got very much that North London world view where he, you know, what's been called citizens of nowhere.
00:50:05.620that view of that the world should be open borders
00:50:11.280and that there should be this constant churn in society
00:50:14.860and we should all be sort of very liberal,
00:50:17.060that sort of John Lennon approach to society.