00:00:16.520It's good to see you, mate. We'll talk about, you know, the comments that you made, the apology, we'll give our take on it and all of that.
00:00:22.600We'll talk about the bigger picture issues as well.
00:00:24.360But the one thing, first of all, I appreciate is that as we move from being a YouTube channel to more of a media organisation and covering different issues,
00:00:32.780I'm actually really pleased that you felt comfortable to come here and talk to us when a lot of other mainstream publications wanted to do an interview,
00:00:40.380but not on the terms that are actually reasonable, etc.
00:00:43.620So thank you for being here. And in that spirit, the first thing I actually think we should do.
00:00:48.320Just before, we should also mention that the people watching at home can send questions to Lawrence on YouTube Super Chats and PayPal.
00:00:57.540And we will answer, we'll do an interview, then we'll have a quick break and then we'll answer your questions.
00:01:01.020But Lawrence, what I wanted to say is, I think quite often, whenever anything like this happens, there is not enough context to whatever it is that's happened.
00:01:09.160It doesn't mean that it excuses certain comments and, you know, we'll get into all of that.
00:01:13.560But the first thing I wanted to do is actually explain what happened.
00:01:16.020So this has been a series of dominoes, the first of which was our friend Jeff Norco, a brilliant comedian.
00:01:22.620He went on a show called Politics Live and there was a conversation with Ava Evans and a couple of other people about male suicide.
00:01:31.740We're going to play that clip for you now so that you know what's going on.
00:01:34.340So then the new role would champion issues such as reducing male suicide.
00:01:39.200Would that be something you'd be in favour of?
00:01:40.960Well, what's interesting about that is the hostility it sometimes faces whenever it comes up.
00:01:44.580I saw a programme where there was like a feminist academic and a Lib Dem MP and they were so hostile to this idea.
00:01:49.740And I thought if you flipped those things, i.e. the biggest cause of death for men under 50 is suicide.
00:01:55.800Men are less likely to go to the doctors.
00:01:57.680You know, men are less likely to maintain friendships.
00:02:00.140If that was for women, we'd have to look at, well, why is society making that happen?
00:02:03.940Whereas with men, the argument is often why are they doing that to themselves?
00:02:07.500So I'm not like totally wedded to the idea, but the hostility towards the idea, I find it instructive.
00:02:40.200If we looked at it during Covid, men were literally more likely to die from Covid.
00:02:44.480And I don't really want to cast myself as a meninist or one of these guys from the manuscript, because that's not who I am.
00:02:49.320But I do find it interesting that sometimes the arguments tend to throw it back.
00:02:52.760But who was doing all the work during Covid?
00:02:54.420You know, a lot of the time, if you looked into people's households, it was the women who were taking on the laundry, the school care, all of that.
00:03:12.580And if that doesn't warrant specific attention, mental health is an umbrella issue.
00:03:15.960I have to say that it's also because women are unsuccessful.
00:03:18.540That is a lot of, that feeds into that statistic.
00:03:20.580But it feels like, it just doesn't feel like you've got any space for this idea that men might have unique challenges that face them.
00:03:26.080And the problem is, even as I'm saying this, in my mind, it's like I've got out the violin and I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be this guy.
00:03:32.660Because that's part of the problem is, because you're encouraged on one level, is men need to talk about their problems more.
00:03:36.940And then the moment you do it, you're like, all right, but not, not, not quite so often and not quite so loud.
00:03:41.220So, so, like you say, the book is not, the book is more lighthearted than that, but it certainly, you know, goes around.
00:03:47.520OK, so that was Geoff Norcott on BBC Politics Live.
00:03:51.520And that then sparked what happened afterwards, which was you going on Dan Woodson's show.
00:03:57.840And here is this clip, which is what you said.
00:04:00.840We've passed the watcher so I can say this.
00:04:02.700And show me a single self-respecting man that would like to climb into bed with that woman ever, ever, who wasn't an incel, who wasn't a cucked little incel.
00:04:14.320That little woman has been fed, spoon-fed oppression day after day after day after day, starting with the lie of the gender wage gap.
00:04:23.820And she sat there and I'm going like, if I met you in a bar and that was like sentence three, chances of me just walking away are just huge.
00:04:33.240We need powerful, strong, amazing women who make great points for themselves.
00:04:37.800We don't need these sort of feminist 4.0.
00:04:48.980I'm just going to provide a touch of balance from her because she did actually respond to this earlier today, saying that she regretted her comments, but she didn't apologise.
00:05:28.100I think I'd spoken to them earlier in the day and, you know, because you have a pre-interview interview, if you know what I mean, and they'd said, oh, we're going to do this story.
00:05:39.440And I was slightly hoping that they weren't going to do that story because I had had strong feelings about it.
00:05:45.220And certainly what I felt was the belittling of male mental health and all of that sort of stuff.
00:05:50.300And that's the context that Constantine has already added.
00:05:54.220And I thought there's probably a chance that I will go over the top here because I'm emotional, you know.
00:06:28.440You hear it all the time, stuff like that.
00:06:30.900But the point is I should have really just attacked.
00:06:34.220But I think I was fair enough to make the point that I wanted to make, which was when you've got a misandrist fourth wave feminist who wants men to be terrified and scared of women and who tweets pictures of her saying I'm socially distancing from men.
00:06:51.980And, you know, I'm wearing a mask to protect myself from the most deadly virus of all men.
00:07:17.060And, you know, I listen back to it and I think, yeah, it's crass.
00:07:21.460And crap and, you know, but I don't really, if I'm truly honest, think it's merited the, I mean, wall to wall, channel to channel, politician, everyone, media, everyone, condemnation.
00:07:38.180Especially when you see half the stuff that has been said which is infinitely worse and has passed without problem.
00:07:44.000Well, look, I agree with you on that aspect of it.
00:07:46.860I do think that the entire thing has been blown out of all proportion.
00:07:50.320And we'll get on to that later in the interview.
00:07:53.420But I would say to your point about being an actor, and I understand if you are an actor, you're an emotion, you're an emotional person, because that is the nature of the profession.
00:08:01.860I've done some acting training myself.
00:08:04.660However, Lawrence, you're now a political figure.
00:08:07.060Isn't it the role of a political figure to be measured, to be reasonable, to be analytical?
00:14:09.020I think the fact, you know what I'll tell you, just as someone who works with words quite a lot, if you'd said shag her, it would have been offensive.
00:14:17.260But I think shag that really took it to a different level.
00:17:35.720I think in the interest of, you know, actually, I'm so glad you've explained that part of it, because it doesn't justify your comments.
00:17:42.660But I think what happened in that BBC Politics Live thing, we didn't play the full clip.
00:17:47.460By the end of it, there was another woman who jumped in.
00:17:50.180And by the end of it, Jeff was, like, apologising for sexual assault against women when the entire conversation was supposed to be about male suicide.
00:17:57.660And the demonisation of men in the media, in advertising, in Hollywood, it is happening, and we all see it.
00:18:18.340And, of course, we don't want men going, I'm going to, you know, you don't want the behaviours that have taken place in the past.
00:18:23.380You want women to have just as active a role in life as men do.
00:18:26.280But this wave is, it's vengeful of us.
00:18:32.740And actually, you know, the amount of men in this world who do wonderful and amazing things and sacrifice hugely for women, what, we just throw them under the bus and put them all in with the same thing?
00:18:45.760And, you know, it is as Jeff, I mean, Jeff is a much, much more measured person than me.
00:18:51.520And even he was starting to get, like, what I'm feeling, OG, and tense about this, because the media narrative is bollocks to men.
00:19:00.340It's all about women and diversity and equity and inclusion.
00:19:04.160And it's like, well, do we get included?
00:19:08.440This kills more people than anyone under 50.
00:19:11.140You know, I've had people I've known who've come back from the Gulf War and have killed themselves.
00:19:15.360You know, so not only have they gone, along with 99% of the other men, whether you agree with the fighting or not, they've gone to represent Britain's interests overseas and had people die in tanks that have fallen off, you know, marsh banks and sunk and listened to the last words of their friends crying to the point where, you know, as they're dying and comforting each other, then to go home and to take their own lives.
00:19:49.880Do you, I wonder whether, you know, you mentioned you were trying to be funny, you were trying to be provocative, it's late at night, you've got a short amount of time to make some kind of impact.
00:19:58.560I don't think anybody's ever heard the argument that you've just made, made by you as eloquently as you've just put it.
00:20:03.100And I think, is it possible that that medium where you've got a three minute thing, it just doesn't allow the depth and the nuance that having an hour like this, sitting down with people who disagree with what you said, but still, you know, are interested in the broader conversation.
00:20:32.160They just, you know, they give you the most provocative story and they want Lawrence to come in and say something provocative, of which on this occasion, I went over the line quite substantially.
00:23:40.560For me, in my overwhelming belief that the idea that we live in a democratic country is not true anymore.
00:23:51.060We're living in a very soft communist state in the UK at the moment.
00:23:54.940So the broadcast ecology is parrot whatever the regime want you to parrot, be it over COVID, be it over GB News, be it over anything, be it over trans issues, be it anything, or cultural issues.
00:24:14.260There is a broadcast ecology that they fit in, and that's the narrative, mostly peaceful riots, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:24:21.560So GB News' attempt to disrupt that broadcast ecology was a very healthy idea, and it was its USP.
00:24:28.240But the second thing he said, which, and it just sort of comes out, she said, I don't think Lawrence Fox should just be allowed on TV.
00:24:35.020And it's like, you do realize what you're saying?
00:24:39.580You're saying, I think that this person should be banned from our broadcast ecology that we've created for you.
00:24:46.640And I think GB News would – I know Ofcom is a nightmare, but I've been into that office, which is about the most toxic place you can ever spend time in, in my view.
00:24:59.520I find the whole building just – because it's full of snakes who want to close the whole thing down from within anyway.
00:25:06.460And you go into the office, and it's just like, oh, you need a shower when you leave.
00:25:09.720And I'm only in there five, six hours a week.
00:25:12.640And I've said to them, every time I walk in, I've said, you need to start pushing back against this, because Ofcom are going to kill you, whether you like it or not.
00:25:21.880And they're currently working on a different model as well, similar to, I think, getting off.
00:25:27.080I imagine they will be booted off, probably.
00:25:28.840But they had an opportunity yesterday, the day before, to turn around and just go, look, I thought what Lawrence said was reprehensible and appalling and went far beyond what GB News did.
00:25:40.400But fundamentally, we believe in the right to free speech.
00:25:44.680So we, you know, we utterly condemn what he said, but we utterly defend his right to say it.
00:25:51.140I mean, that's – it's the free speech version of Martin Luther King saying, content to character, not colour of skin.
00:26:52.700So I think the issue you're fighting against here is that GB News is an Ofcom-regulated broadcaster and not a YouTube channel, let's say, right?
00:27:00.940So they also – but, you know, just to – again, in terms of context.
00:27:03.740Well, let's – in terms of context, I told them exactly what I was going to say, including the word shag.
00:27:22.320But I'm saying your criticism is unfair, it seems to me.
00:27:25.500Well, I don't – I think GB News are – what is the point in labelling yourself the home of free speech if you're going to cancel people for free speech?
00:27:36.420Well, therefore, if your business model is to be the home of free speech, then either campaign to have Ofcom removed or do it online, surely.
00:27:45.920Because if you can't – Ofcom have proven that free speech is not celebrated in this country.
00:27:50.980We look at – the whole point of GB News existing in the media landscape was because every single other news channel was saying exactly the same thing.
00:27:58.060So GB News came on, and the rest of the media looked at them and said, we'll get them.
00:29:42.120I think we've gone through the struggle session of it's all my fault.
00:29:45.800Look, I hope it hasn't been a struggle session.
00:29:47.700No, no, because I think – look, I'm – yeah, you know, I just – to me, in my brain, I just find the whole idea of Ofcom stunningly ridiculous.
00:29:58.460Well, this is what I'm saying to you, is you're blaming GB News for being regulated.
00:33:30.540So my point is, where I do agree with you, is there is clearly a politically motivated campaign to shut down GB News by, let's be honest, their rivals.
00:34:00.300Because it's a massive institution, the BBC and stuff like that.
00:34:04.600The broadcast ecology reaches out into the cultural ecology of what is and isn't acceptable and where the Overton window sits within society.
00:34:11.000GB News, you're right, I should separate out my criticisms.
00:34:18.920Well, to do its best to provide, let's face it, 51% of the population with something to watch that they might learn something from or agree with.
00:34:27.980And GB News often listens to its audience.
00:34:32.060It doesn't use that broadcast ecology thing.
00:34:33.760But it all expands out to fill up our entire culture.
00:34:36.540So, you know, newspapers will write the word she.
00:34:39.200I was speaking to a journalist the other day and I was like, why do you go a picture of a big scraggly bearded man with a wig on and say, woman arrested and charged with sex offences, she will be sent.
00:35:42.360You know, so I think there's a determined effort, not only to shut down GB News, but I think there's a determined effort to shut down anyone who is confident and okay to share an opinion.
00:35:55.880The thing that I find really frustrating when it comes to broadcasters like the BBC.
00:36:01.760So I actually watched that news night.
00:36:04.240All those people around that table agreed.
00:36:31.500So you go, you are not even adhering to your own rules where you talk about the fact that GB News is biased and doesn't, you know, and it only has one point of view.
00:36:48.920Yeah, and I think probably the point I was trying to make is it's not really an anger at GB News.
00:36:55.340It's more like going, guys, do you realise what is about to happen?
00:36:59.560You're going to have to become Ofcom compliant, which means you have to become part of the ecology.
00:37:07.360You know, and that means you're just going to be the same as all of the other channels.
00:37:13.060Their desperate last move to not get removed is to become exactly the same as Sky News or BBC News or ITV News, just with no budget, no advertisers.
00:37:24.520It's like you just go out there with swords and go, no, Ofcom, we're going to do this.
00:37:29.880We're going to fight you on all of it.
00:37:30.860No, but then they are going to get shut down.
00:38:21.380I think that they'll have to dumb themselves down so dramatically that they'll become indistinguishable from any other news channel.
00:38:29.660And I think their presenters will all be so, have all their authenticity taken away from them that they'll just have to sort of say this sort of same thing with a very slight right-leaning tendency, you know.
00:38:41.480And, but also they've burned a lot of bridges now with, you know, this is suspended Calvin Robinson for not going on someone's show because he's trying to, he's saying, Dan Whitton hasn't been sacked yet or may not be sacked at all.
00:38:54.780So until that investigation is complete, I'm not going to go on someone else's show because I would feel that that would personally compromise my loyalty to him as a person.
00:39:03.560It's the guilty until proven innocent thing, which is, you know, which is a much bigger problem in society as we know.
00:39:12.740Not to make this more of a struggle session, but do you feel responsible for what's happening to GB News now?
00:39:18.400Are you quite happy that you've sort of highlighted this issue?
00:39:55.820I am in a way because look, where's it come from?
00:39:59.160Um, but am I responsible for saying what I said?
00:40:01.880No, I'm responsible because they took me on the bait.
00:40:05.580I said the stupid thing and the entire social media and media descended on me.
00:40:10.840But, no, Lawrence, but I come back to this point, which I think is important for this discussion, not to try and make you look bad or anything, but they had to sack you.
00:44:02.500And you're trained at a technical college or you're trained by the BBC or whatever and you don't get a job and you move and you get GB News and whatever.
00:44:08.480Lawrence, you know what worries me about this whole situation is, irrespective of how crass and offensive your comments were, whatever,
00:44:17.080we've got to a point where I think a very significant portion of our chattering classes care more about people's words than about their actions.
00:44:32.000It's easier to care about someone's words.
00:44:34.480If someone says the right thing, it's like, you know, like critical race theory.
00:44:39.020It's so much harder to solve actual inequalities in society than just by saying, well, if you're black, you're repressed.
00:44:46.320Rather than going, well, no, actually, if you're poor and you can't afford to feed your own family, you're repressed by a system which needs to be reformed.
00:44:52.500And the difficulty is, yeah, we celebrate false virtue.
00:44:59.300That's one of the most important aspects of the modern progressive world that we live in.
00:45:05.400And we don't look at people's actions.
00:45:08.680I'm actually fairly, I'm proud of a lot of what I've done.
00:45:11.380And I'm proud of a lot of the relationships that I have with people who profoundly disagree with me.
00:45:16.400And I've built bridges where bridges cannot be built.
00:45:19.160I suppose the worrying part now is I'm going to have to leave the UK, I think.
00:45:25.720That's my main concern, is like I'm cancelled from my own country.
01:11:30.640Sean T says, and, you know, we've talked about GB News quite a bit and this is a provocative question, but he's a serious question following this.
01:11:49.320Now, whether they still maintain to be the home of free speech as regulated by Ofcom, you're not really the home of free speech if you're the home of free speech as regulated by Ofcom.
01:11:58.760I don't know why GB News ever wants to be regulated anyway.
01:12:00.980They have explained it to me several times, but I'm like, well...
01:12:03.040I imagine you can't broadcast on TV without you.
01:12:05.020Yeah, but they should have just gone online.
01:12:06.520They should just be an online channel, which I think they're going to do.
01:12:09.320I don't know what the future of GB News is.
01:12:11.280I think the way that they've behaved, certainly over Dan and Calvin, is...
01:12:18.440It's not Dan's fault if you've found something I say funny, is it?
01:12:22.620Yeah, and he did actually say, you know, just to provide balance.
01:12:25.780I mean, look, he probably should have pushed back a lot stronger.
01:13:31.820I've always said, from the day I started off doing the Reclaim Party, I said, I don't think the political party is the right answer, because I don't think there's a political solution to a cultural problem.
01:13:40.400Therefore, you need a cultural solution to the problem.
01:13:50.500Instead of teaching all of these poor little girls and young women who are coming out of school that the only way that they can ever be truly respected in life is by not having children and having more money than men.
01:14:00.160It's like, well, really, you're going to really regret that decision at 38 when your fertility falls off the cliff.
01:14:08.640MoMA says, apart from anything, were some GB News presenters naive to think it would be a paragon of free speech when they played in MSM territory, mainstream media territory, and put themselves under Ofcom?
01:14:20.160Not that GB News can't be a better MSM.
01:14:22.260Yeah, I think I'm very guilty of their, you know, they sent me their broadcasters charter and all that sort of stuff, and I'm just like, yeah, whatever, I get it.
01:14:38.800So, you know, again, I think I'm guilty of podcast-itis where you just, you know, I just thought, you know, Ofcom is just sort of some bunch of censorship drones who I don't want to ever speak to or I don't think about when I'm at work.
01:15:13.560So, and Matt Shaw says, Adam Bolton is a fool whose career should have been ended when he appeared drunk on TV with Alistair Campbell and lost his rag.
01:15:21.620And Campbell, of all people, told him, dignity, dignity, an utter gargoyle.
01:16:05.500Because, you know, there's a reason why all of these, I mean, God, I'm trying to think about some of the stuff I used to be taught at school.
01:16:12.540And, you know, this stuff would be child abuse nowadays.
01:16:16.700You know, you need good, strong men to lead and families.
01:16:20.620And, you know, anyone who said that nowadays is an alt-right fascist anti-vaxxing conspiracy theorist.
01:16:25.480It's why things like rugby and, you know, contact sports are actually so important, particularly for boys.
01:16:31.000So that when you do get a punch in the head, you know, you get a shoulder in the ribs.
01:16:35.100You realise it's not the end of the world.
01:16:36.680It's just a bit of pain and you'll be able to run it off.
01:16:38.740I know, but my little one was taught, you know, goes to one of those, you get free medals for coming last.
01:16:46.160And I was told at one football match that I wasn't allowed to clap if they scored.
01:16:50.620And then they indoctrinate the children with it.
01:16:54.220So then he comes home and he's like, it doesn't matter about winning, Dad.