TRIGGERnometry - Laurence Fox：＂I'm Thinking Of Leaving The Country＂

00:00:00.960 Hello and welcome to a very special live episode of Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.100 I'm Constantine Kissin and our guest today has been making the news for the last couple of days.

00:00:13.180 Lawrence Fox, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:15.020 Hi guys, nice to see you again.

00:00:16.520 It's good to see you, mate. We'll talk about, you know, the comments that you made, the apology, we'll give our take on it and all of that.

00:00:22.600 We'll talk about the bigger picture issues as well.

00:00:24.360 But the one thing, first of all, I appreciate is that as we move from being a YouTube channel to more of a media organisation and covering different issues,

00:00:32.780 I'm actually really pleased that you felt comfortable to come here and talk to us when a lot of other mainstream publications wanted to do an interview,

00:00:40.380 but not on the terms that are actually reasonable, etc.

00:00:43.620 So thank you for being here. And in that spirit, the first thing I actually think we should do.

00:00:48.320 Just before, we should also mention that the people watching at home can send questions to Lawrence on YouTube Super Chats and PayPal.

00:00:57.540 And we will answer, we'll do an interview, then we'll have a quick break and then we'll answer your questions.

00:01:01.020 But Lawrence, what I wanted to say is, I think quite often, whenever anything like this happens, there is not enough context to whatever it is that's happened.

00:01:09.160 It doesn't mean that it excuses certain comments and, you know, we'll get into all of that.

00:01:13.560 But the first thing I wanted to do is actually explain what happened.

00:01:16.020 So this has been a series of dominoes, the first of which was our friend Jeff Norco, a brilliant comedian.

00:01:22.620 He went on a show called Politics Live and there was a conversation with Ava Evans and a couple of other people about male suicide.

00:01:31.740 We're going to play that clip for you now so that you know what's going on.

00:01:34.340 So then the new role would champion issues such as reducing male suicide.

00:01:39.200 Would that be something you'd be in favour of?

00:01:40.960 Well, what's interesting about that is the hostility it sometimes faces whenever it comes up.

00:01:44.580 I saw a programme where there was like a feminist academic and a Lib Dem MP and they were so hostile to this idea.

00:01:49.740 And I thought if you flipped those things, i.e. the biggest cause of death for men under 50 is suicide.

00:01:55.800 Men are less likely to go to the doctors.

00:01:57.680 You know, men are less likely to maintain friendships.

00:02:00.140 If that was for women, we'd have to look at, well, why is society making that happen? 1.00

00:02:03.940 Whereas with men, the argument is often why are they doing that to themselves?

00:02:07.500 So I'm not like totally wedded to the idea, but the hostility towards the idea, I find it instructive.

00:02:13.560 Ava?

00:02:14.440 I think that it feeds into the culture a little bit, this Minister for Men argument.

00:02:18.560 In my mind, I think there should be a Minister for Mental Health, which would be all-encompassing.

00:02:22.420 I mean, you've got something like 7 million children waiting for prescriptions for mental health at the moment.

00:02:25.880 It's a crisis that's endemic throughout the country, not specific to men.

00:02:29.280 And I think, you know, a lot of ministers kind of bandy this about to sort of, I'm sorry, but make an enemy out of women, I think. 1.00

00:02:35.400 Not you, and I don't think your book is.

00:02:36.820 I don't accept that.

00:02:38.540 I don't think it is to make an enemy.

00:02:40.200 If we looked at it during Covid, men were literally more likely to die from Covid.

00:02:44.480 And I don't really want to cast myself as a meninist or one of these guys from the manuscript, because that's not who I am.

00:02:49.320 But I do find it interesting that sometimes the arguments tend to throw it back.

00:02:52.760 But who was doing all the work during Covid?

00:02:54.420 You know, a lot of the time, if you looked into people's households, it was the women who were taking on the laundry, the school care, all of that.

00:03:00.300 But I'm not disputing any of that.

00:03:02.300 What I'm saying is that there are specific issues that men face that might warrant specific attention.

00:03:07.100 I mean, literally, the biggest killer of men under 50 is suicide.

00:03:11.220 That is an arresting statistic.

00:03:12.580 And if that doesn't warrant specific attention, mental health is an umbrella issue.

00:03:15.960 I have to say that it's also because women are unsuccessful. 1.00

00:03:18.540 That is a lot of, that feeds into that statistic.

00:03:20.580 But it feels like, it just doesn't feel like you've got any space for this idea that men might have unique challenges that face them.

00:03:26.080 And the problem is, even as I'm saying this, in my mind, it's like I've got out the violin and I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be this guy.

00:03:32.660 Because that's part of the problem is, because you're encouraged on one level, is men need to talk about their problems more.

00:03:36.940 And then the moment you do it, you're like, all right, but not, not, not quite so often and not quite so loud.

00:03:41.220 So, so, like you say, the book is not, the book is more lighthearted than that, but it certainly, you know, goes around.

00:03:47.520 OK, so that was Geoff Norcott on BBC Politics Live.

00:03:51.520 And that then sparked what happened afterwards, which was you going on Dan Woodson's show.

00:03:57.840 And here is this clip, which is what you said.

00:04:00.840 We've passed the watcher so I can say this. 0.95

00:04:02.700 And show me a single self-respecting man that would like to climb into bed with that woman ever, ever, who wasn't an incel, who wasn't a cucked little incel. 0.93

00:04:14.320 That little woman has been fed, spoon-fed oppression day after day after day after day, starting with the lie of the gender wage gap. 1.00

00:04:23.820 And she sat there and I'm going like, if I met you in a bar and that was like sentence three, chances of me just walking away are just huge.

00:04:33.240 We need powerful, strong, amazing women who make great points for themselves. 1.00

00:04:37.800 We don't need these sort of feminist 4.0. 1.00

00:04:40.940 They're pathetic and embarrassing. 1.00

00:04:43.100 Who'd want to shag that? 1.00

00:04:44.820 Oh, Lawrence.

00:04:46.060 Well, look, she... 1.00

00:04:48.620 Sorry.

00:04:48.980 I'm just going to provide a touch of balance from her because she did actually respond to this earlier today, saying that she regretted her comments, but she didn't apologise.

00:05:06.060 Yes.

00:05:06.800 So there you go.

00:05:10.340 And she's a very beautiful woman, Lawrence.

00:05:11.960 Very beautiful woman.

00:05:13.020 There you go.

00:05:13.460 Well, I'm probably not.

00:05:14.160 I'm probably not.

00:05:17.360 Okay, Lawrence.

00:05:18.380 So looking at that clip in the cold, brutal light of day, it doesn't look good, mate, does it?

00:05:24.960 No.

00:05:26.460 No, no.

00:05:28.100 I think I'd spoken to them earlier in the day and, you know, because you have a pre-interview interview, if you know what I mean, and they'd said, oh, we're going to do this story.

00:05:39.440 And I was slightly hoping that they weren't going to do that story because I had had strong feelings about it.

00:05:45.220 And certainly what I felt was the belittling of male mental health and all of that sort of stuff.

00:05:50.300 And that's the context that Constantine has already added.

00:05:54.220 And I thought there's probably a chance that I will go over the top here because I'm emotional, you know.

00:05:59.100 And I spent 22 years acting.

00:06:01.940 So when you're an actor, you're trained on instinct.

00:06:04.960 You're trained to feel instinct and jump on it because that's how you keep stories going and people suspend their disbelief.

00:06:13.360 So that is the way my brain works.

00:06:16.360 And also I'm highly emotional as a person.

00:06:17.820 So when I listen back to it now, I just go, it's just kind of crass.

00:06:25.140 It's the kind of thing you say in a pub.

00:06:27.220 People do say in pubs.

00:06:28.440 You hear it all the time, stuff like that.

00:06:30.900 But the point is I should have really just attacked.

00:06:34.220 But I think I was fair enough to make the point that I wanted to make, which was when you've got a misandrist fourth wave feminist who wants men to be terrified and scared of women and who tweets pictures of her saying I'm socially distancing from men.

00:06:51.980 And, you know, I'm wearing a mask to protect myself from the most deadly virus of all men.

00:06:57.780 I'm just a bit like, stop. 0.64

00:07:01.820 And therefore, instead of dismantling her ideas, I just said I can't think of a single man who would want to shag you. 0.74

00:07:08.820 I mean, which self-respecting man would want to shag you?

00:07:11.560 I was also trying to be funny.

00:07:14.460 Big mistake.

00:07:17.060 And, you know, I listen back to it and I think, yeah, it's crass. 0.95

00:07:21.460 And crap and, you know, but I don't really, if I'm truly honest, think it's merited the, I mean, wall to wall, channel to channel, politician, everyone, media, everyone, condemnation. 0.97

00:07:38.180 Especially when you see half the stuff that has been said which is infinitely worse and has passed without problem. 0.98

00:07:44.000 Well, look, I agree with you on that aspect of it.

00:07:46.860 I do think that the entire thing has been blown out of all proportion.

00:07:50.320 And we'll get on to that later in the interview.

00:07:53.420 But I would say to your point about being an actor, and I understand if you are an actor, you're an emotion, you're an emotional person, because that is the nature of the profession.

00:08:01.860 I've done some acting training myself.

00:08:04.660 However, Lawrence, you're now a political figure.

00:08:07.060 Isn't it the role of a political figure to be measured, to be reasonable, to be analytical?

00:08:12.600 It's not to go in with emotion.

00:08:14.020 No, I think we need more emotion in politics, actually.

00:08:18.400 I think we could deal with a lot more emotion in politics rather than people just nodding along to whatever they say.

00:08:24.300 I think I would never want to, perhaps need to harness my emotion.

00:08:29.360 But I think emotion and instinct are two of the most powerful tricks and tools that one has in the armory.

00:08:36.400 But, yeah, 100%, you're right.

00:08:40.300 A, who is Ava Evans?

00:08:43.300 With all due respect to her, I'd never heard of her until two days ago.

00:08:46.980 I don't know what she is or what she does for a living. 1.00

00:08:49.660 I still don't know what she does for a living. 1.00

00:08:51.000 And I probably should have not gone down to her level, you know.

00:08:57.280 And as I've said, you know, I've apologised for the way I spoke because it is, it's not helpful.

00:09:07.480 And it doesn't get across the point, which is the sentiment behind what I spoke, which is women like that, 1.00

00:09:13.400 women who have that ideological position of hyper-feminism, which is sort of authoritarian rather than egalitarian feminism and misandry. 1.00

00:09:29.240 My point was what man who wants to build a life and build a great union and a family of which this country needs a lot

00:09:36.980 because our birth rates are so low, would want, if he was to marry a woman like that, 0.81

00:09:43.740 I'd imagine he'd be giving himself a life sentence of, you know, hell.

00:09:50.080 Lawrence, when I saw that clip, there was part of me that thought, did you have a few drinks before that?

00:09:55.940 And then you just went, right, screw this, I'm going to tell them what I think.

00:10:01.140 I'd had a glass of wine at dinner, yeah, definitely, but I've had a few.

00:10:04.160 But, you know, it's not so much that.

00:10:06.720 It's like 9.30 at night.

00:10:09.040 You're like, you're at the end of the day, you're much more kind of, ugh, I've finished all my things, I can relax.

00:10:13.760 Which is what you can't do, because it's television.

00:10:16.800 You shouldn't relax.

00:10:18.120 But, you know, I am reminded back of those sort of shows like The Word and all of that stuff.

00:10:21.780 Do you remember?

00:10:22.820 And we were raised on that.

00:10:23.980 And also, I spend a lot of time listening to, I think one of the other things that affects the way I speak sometimes

00:10:28.920 is I spend a lot of time listening to American podcasts.

00:10:32.280 So I'll listen to, like, Megyn Kelly a lot. 1.00

00:10:34.080 And she's sort of chatting away and she's going, I'm saying, fuck them, that's why I don't care. 1.00

00:10:38.400 Fuck them. 1.00

00:10:38.880 You know, and I sort of, you become influenced. 1.00

00:10:42.900 And you forget that British broadcasting is about going, yes, yes, on the 9 o'clock news,

00:10:48.600 we're going to talk about this and that.

00:10:50.380 But, so, yeah, I'm not making excuses for myself.

00:10:54.040 It was crass, poorly expressed, demeaned her, which is wrong.

00:11:01.380 What's the point in doing that?

00:11:02.520 And it removed, I didn't get my point across, which is what I was there to do, which was to get a point across.

00:11:07.220 There is a possibility that people will only be hearing me through France's microphone at the moment.

00:11:12.420 Some people will, critics will say we're doing a very good impression.

00:11:16.080 GB News in the early days, which is a fair comment.

00:11:19.380 We'll take it. 0.64

00:11:20.700 Taking the piss hours.

00:11:21.780 Look, I think the reason I wanted to have you on, actually, is that when I saw your comments, 0.97

00:11:28.360 I just thought, Lawrence, this is a silly thing to say.

00:11:30.860 It's offensive. 0.95

00:11:31.720 It's, you know, crass.

00:11:33.020 And I didn't comment on it in a couple of days because I thought what should have happened,

00:11:37.920 which is GB News has an editorial code.

00:11:40.300 You've clearly broken it.

00:11:41.380 You're probably going to get sacked.

00:11:42.560 That is what should happen, right, in this situation.

00:11:45.200 And that's it.

00:11:46.380 But I think what we've also seen is the reaction.

00:11:50.780 It's just been insane from my perspective.

00:11:54.140 And that isn't to, you know, I think your point is interesting about podcasts in particular

00:11:59.600 because GB News is Ofcom regulated.

00:12:03.740 It's a British public broadcaster, right?

00:12:07.160 And that isn't the same as sitting, even sitting here with us.

00:12:11.280 Yeah.

00:12:11.760 It's different.

00:12:14.000 And do you think that maybe you want, is it that you sort of forgot about it?

00:12:19.660 Or is it that you actually chafe against the restrictions that GB News is operating under?

00:12:24.740 Well, I've had a lot of Ofcom training by GB News.

00:12:29.120 And I've never, up until Monday, had a complaint that's been made and upheld against me.

00:12:37.160 As Angelos, who's walking around throwing everyone under the bus this morning, has said,

00:12:41.400 you know, I sail close to the wind.

00:12:42.440 I know what the limit is.

00:12:42.940 Who's Angelos?

00:12:44.120 Frankopoulos, the guy who runs it.

00:12:46.200 The chief executive of the studio.

00:12:48.140 And I, my thing is because of the way that you know I am, I can, I'm recklessly free in my expression in a lot of ways.

00:12:57.560 So when someone says Ofcom, I just think, oh, there's a bunch of communists who want to shut everyone up and silence people.

00:13:02.660 And I don't really think about them.

00:13:04.420 So I just think, if you're telling the truth, if it's an opinion you're being asked for, then offer it.

00:13:10.700 You know, and obviously there are ones.

00:13:12.980 I offer an opinion every single week about various things.

00:13:17.200 And, you know, they, occasionally people shout in my ear and go, you've got to have more balance, push back.

00:13:21.480 And I'm like, that's good.

00:13:22.260 You do want balance and you do want to push back.

00:13:24.540 But at the same time, yeah, I think you get confused between the areas from the pub chat to the podcast to the Ofcom regulated space.

00:13:33.580 But it's not an excuse.

00:13:34.940 I'm hired by them.

00:13:36.120 I've got a, well, for about the next 20 minutes, probably.

00:13:39.000 I've got a, you know, it is my responsibility to do it.

00:13:44.680 But I also think at the same time, GB News itself calls itself dying with free speech.

00:13:50.120 So they possibly might.

00:13:52.100 But they do have an editorial charter.

00:13:54.060 Of course they do.

00:13:54.760 And the editorial charter says you must respect people's opinions and people, right?

00:13:59.400 Yeah.

00:13:59.660 And we'd all agree that what you said about Ava was disrespectful.

00:14:02.940 Yeah.

00:14:03.580 I don't think it's misogyny or anything like that.

00:14:06.880 I think it's disrespectful.

00:14:07.740 I think it was.

00:14:09.020 I think the fact, you know what I'll tell you, just as someone who works with words quite a lot, if you'd said shag her, it would have been offensive.

00:14:17.260 But I think shag that really took it to a different level.

00:14:21.100 Yeah.

00:14:21.400 Well, I wasn't referring to her.

00:14:22.640 I wasn't itemizing her as that.

00:14:24.420 What I was saying was this is the sort of person.

00:14:26.980 If you met someone in a bar like that, and actually I wasn't talking about her at that point.

00:14:30.340 I was saying, if you met someone in a bar on the third sentence in, they started telling you how much they had you meant.

00:14:34.300 Who'd want to shag that person? 1.00

00:14:37.300 So you could say her, or you could say if I just added the word person.

00:14:40.720 Yeah.

00:14:41.360 But what it came across as, which I completely understand, and again, I'm holding my hands up.

00:14:46.820 Is it when, who'd want to shag that like it's some object?

00:14:50.360 So I can see that.

00:14:51.220 I think that's how a lot of people receive that.

00:14:52.620 Yeah, yeah, of course they do.

00:14:53.640 But, you know, anyone who is looking for, and, you know, when I look at it, it sounds like that too.

00:14:59.180 But it wasn't my intention.

00:15:00.240 Yeah.

00:15:00.640 And look, I don't want to make this the grilling of Lawrence Fox.

00:15:03.320 You can.

00:15:03.620 You can make it whatever you want.

00:15:04.800 I don't want to.

00:15:05.880 Because I think, as I said, I think what you said was crass and wrong.

00:15:10.460 And I also think the reaction to it has been just insane to me.

00:15:14.300 It's like a trap.

00:15:15.140 And we'll talk a little bit about why that is in a moment.

00:15:18.020 But, you know, there was some debate internally here about whether we should have you or not.

00:15:23.240 And for us, for me and Francis, it was obvious that we should, because I think it's important to have these discussions.

00:15:29.040 But you're a Christian, and we have some Christians who work here who were like, how does this reconcile with Lawrence's faith exactly?

00:15:38.040 You know, I haven't read the Bible cover to cover.

00:15:41.500 But you know what I mean?

00:15:42.500 I don't know, talking about whether you chag someone, is in there.

00:15:45.700 No, it's definitely not in there.

00:15:47.820 Along with he who's without sin cast the first stone and the fact that we're all fallen.

00:15:53.320 So we are, you know, we're all sinful.

00:15:55.860 We're all fallen.

00:15:56.660 Jesus Christ died for our sins.

00:15:57.960 We can't be perfect all the time.

00:15:59.100 We're not perfect.

00:16:00.020 So we are, by our very definition, fallen.

00:16:03.260 So that's just an example of someone fallen being fallen.

00:16:06.440 In my book, it doesn't reconcile itself with my faith, because it's, you know, we're all created equal in the eyes of God.

00:16:12.820 And actually, you know, speak to any women I know, they're upheld and loved and supported and honoured as they should be.

00:16:20.540 My problem is emotion.

00:16:23.140 It's like, do not belittle male suicide, because I have friends who have died from male suicide, and you don't see it coming.

00:16:30.620 And I'm still angry about it.

00:16:36.660 Don't do that.

00:16:38.040 Don't go, oh, it's a cultural issue.

00:16:40.180 Or, yeah, shush, shush, shush, shush, shush.

00:16:41.600 You never see it in men, because they just go, and then they, you know, I'm lucky I'm an emotional person.

00:16:49.300 And that is a story. 0.86

00:16:50.740 And to belittle that is shameful and disgusting, actually. 0.99

00:16:57.380 And, you know, I could make an argument now that I'm riled up again to say people like that are vile, disgusting people. 0.99

00:17:05.360 But I can't do that.

00:17:06.920 But I can make an argument to do it, because I don't want to be in that world.

00:17:09.540 I'd much rather be in the forgiveness and contrition world, because that's where we're going to have to head.

00:17:14.500 But to do that, you know, I've had to deal with families that have had this take place, and no one knew it was coming.

00:17:22.860 So you do need to talk about men's mental health. 0.98

00:17:25.140 And you don't need to poo-poo it and, like, talk about the fucking gender pay gap when someone's trying to make a serious point. 1.00

00:17:31.000 So that, I'm still enraged about that. 0.99

00:17:34.520 And I don't blame you, by the way.

00:17:35.720 I think in the interest of, you know, actually, I'm so glad you've explained that part of it, because it doesn't justify your comments.

00:17:42.660 But I think what happened in that BBC Politics Live thing, we didn't play the full clip.

00:17:47.460 By the end of it, there was another woman who jumped in. 1.00

00:17:50.180 And by the end of it, Jeff was, like, apologising for sexual assault against women when the entire conversation was supposed to be about male suicide.

00:17:57.660 And the demonisation of men in the media, in advertising, in Hollywood, it is happening, and we all see it.

00:18:03.640 You have to be blind not to.

00:18:05.220 And I think it's bad for men and for women.

00:18:07.060 Feminisation of men, that's what it is. 1.00

00:18:08.560 This is my objection to the fourth wave of feminism, if that's where we are, is essentially, of course we want equality. 0.98

00:18:16.660 Of course we want equality.

00:18:18.340 And, of course, we don't want men going, I'm going to, you know, you don't want the behaviours that have taken place in the past.

00:18:23.380 You want women to have just as active a role in life as men do.

00:18:26.280 But this wave is, it's vengeful of us.

00:18:32.740 And actually, you know, the amount of men in this world who do wonderful and amazing things and sacrifice hugely for women, what, we just throw them under the bus and put them all in with the same thing?

00:18:45.760 And, you know, it is as Jeff, I mean, Jeff is a much, much more measured person than me.

00:18:51.520 And even he was starting to get, like, what I'm feeling, OG, and tense about this, because the media narrative is bollocks to men.

00:19:00.340 It's all about women and diversity and equity and inclusion.

00:19:04.160 And it's like, well, do we get included?

00:19:06.640 Do our problems get included?

00:19:08.440 This kills more people than anyone under 50.

00:19:11.140 You know, I've had people I've known who've come back from the Gulf War and have killed themselves. 0.99

00:19:15.360 You know, so not only have they gone, along with 99% of the other men, whether you agree with the fighting or not, they've gone to represent Britain's interests overseas and had people die in tanks that have fallen off, you know, marsh banks and sunk and listened to the last words of their friends crying to the point where, you know, as they're dying and comforting each other, then to go home and to take their own lives.

00:19:39.880 I mean, it's despicable.

00:19:42.600 You know that phrase?

00:19:43.600 Sorry, Francis, just one more question for me and then you take over.

00:19:46.520 You know the phrase, the medium is the message?

00:19:48.640 Yeah.

00:19:49.880 Do you, I wonder whether, you know, you mentioned you were trying to be funny, you were trying to be provocative, it's late at night, you've got a short amount of time to make some kind of impact.

00:19:58.560 I don't think anybody's ever heard the argument that you've just made, made by you as eloquently as you've just put it.

00:20:03.100 And I think, is it possible that that medium where you've got a three minute thing, it just doesn't allow the depth and the nuance that having an hour like this, sitting down with people who disagree with what you said, but still, you know, are interested in the broader conversation.

00:20:20.400 Yeah.

00:20:20.580 That seems to me to be just a completely different way of having this discussion.

00:20:24.180 I never wanted to do that nine o'clock, 9.30 slot with Dan, because it's exactly clickbait.

00:20:31.180 It's just clickbait.

00:20:32.160 They just, you know, they give you the most provocative story and they want Lawrence to come in and say something provocative, of which on this occasion, I went over the line quite substantially.

00:20:41.980 But that's what they kind of want.

00:20:43.540 They want you to sail through, and it's just, it's unhealthy.

00:20:45.940 I don't think it's good for television. 0.99

00:20:46.940 In fact, I think hour-long television with four breaks and five different stories is crap, actually. 0.57

00:20:54.820 And as we've seen with the massive rise in podcasting and the success of podcasting, you don't need it.

00:21:01.760 So GB News are, I admire what their original mission was to do.

00:21:07.660 And I'm watching horror.

00:21:09.160 I feel dreadful because a trap was set and the bait was me.

00:21:15.060 And GB News ate the bait.

00:21:17.600 And that's what happened.

00:21:18.760 But the trap's been waiting there forever.

00:21:20.880 The trap's been waiting.

00:21:22.160 And all GB News had to do was cancel one of their own.

00:21:25.560 And then GB News are no longer their own with free speech.

00:21:27.900 Do you know what I mean?

00:21:28.480 Let's explore that.

00:21:29.440 Because what do you mean by that, Lawrence?

00:21:31.720 They want, if you look at the reaction to what's happened, every single media channel,

00:21:38.040 from both sides of what I call the Union Party, but Labour and Conservative,

00:21:43.900 and every single politician and media outlet is saying the same thing.

00:21:48.640 Shut them down.

00:21:50.280 Well, let's play a clip of that.

00:21:51.960 We've got a clip, actually, of Adam Bolton on Newsnight.

00:21:54.600 He was there along with several others, including a Conservative MP.

00:21:57.780 And this is what took place.

00:21:58.880 I watched it until it was drawn attention to, but I wasn't surprised.

00:22:03.300 Nonetheless, I did ask myself why these two people were on a purportedly serious news station

00:22:10.740 at all, bearing in mind that Mr Wootten, in other areas, is currently suspended from the

00:22:15.500 mail.

00:22:15.820 He's under investigation at The Sun as well for his previous behaviour.

00:22:21.060 Over allegations that he denies, I should say.

00:22:23.420 Yes, and as far as Lawrence Fox is concerned, I think he now has a long record of saying

00:22:29.600 pretty extreme things.

00:22:31.000 And, in fact, I was at a news meeting at another broadcaster today and was saying,

00:22:35.260 well, you know, would you still put Lawrence Fox on television?

00:22:37.960 And the conclusion was you probably wouldn't.

00:22:40.380 And both of them, I think, have damaged themselves by doing this.

00:22:43.720 And therefore we say, well, why was GB News doing it?

00:22:47.540 And, you know, I have to say, I think the complaints have piled up against GB News.

00:22:51.660 I think there is a delicate and important broadcast ecology in this country.

00:22:56.760 I think, you know, GB News is trying to bust that ecology.

00:23:00.640 And, frankly, what Ofcom should do is shut it down like it shut down RT.

00:23:07.340 I mean...

00:23:08.140 Shut down like shut down RT.

00:23:09.620 I mean, RT is the propaganda wing of the Russian government.

00:23:12.720 Anyway.

00:23:12.900 Yeah, so that's worrying because people will find what you said distasteful.

00:23:19.840 They may argue that it's sexist.

00:23:21.580 Fair enough.

00:23:22.640 But what?

00:23:23.100 You're going to shut down an entire TV channel because of words that are distasteful?

00:23:28.440 I mean, that is an overreaction, to put it mildly.

00:23:31.940 Well, I think the clue, the hint is in the two things that I hear there are broadcast ecology.

00:23:37.340 Now, what is a broadcast ecology?

00:23:40.560 For me, in my overwhelming belief that the idea that we live in a democratic country is not true anymore.

00:23:51.060 We're living in a very soft communist state in the UK at the moment.

00:23:54.940 So the broadcast ecology is parrot whatever the regime want you to parrot, be it over COVID, be it over GB News, be it over anything, be it over trans issues, be it anything, or cultural issues.

00:24:12.080 You know, BLM, all of these things.

00:24:14.260 There is a broadcast ecology that they fit in, and that's the narrative, mostly peaceful riots, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:24:21.560 So GB News' attempt to disrupt that broadcast ecology was a very healthy idea, and it was its USP.

00:24:28.240 But the second thing he said, which, and it just sort of comes out, she said, I don't think Lawrence Fox should just be allowed on TV.

00:24:35.020 And it's like, you do realize what you're saying?

00:24:39.580 You're saying, I think that this person should be banned from our broadcast ecology that we've created for you.

00:24:46.640 And I think GB News would – I know Ofcom is a nightmare, but I've been into that office, which is about the most toxic place you can ever spend time in, in my view.

00:24:59.520 I find the whole building just – because it's full of snakes who want to close the whole thing down from within anyway.

00:25:04.680 We're talking about GB News.

00:25:05.760 About GB News.

00:25:06.460 And you go into the office, and it's just like, oh, you need a shower when you leave.

00:25:09.720 And I'm only in there five, six hours a week.

00:25:12.640 And I've said to them, every time I walk in, I've said, you need to start pushing back against this, because Ofcom are going to kill you, whether you like it or not.

00:25:21.880 And they're currently working on a different model as well, similar to, I think, getting off.

00:25:27.080 I imagine they will be booted off, probably.

00:25:28.840 But they had an opportunity yesterday, the day before, to turn around and just go, look, I thought what Lawrence said was reprehensible and appalling and went far beyond what GB News did.

00:25:40.400 But fundamentally, we believe in the right to free speech.

00:25:44.680 So we, you know, we utterly condemn what he said, but we utterly defend his right to say it.

00:25:51.140 I mean, that's – it's the free speech version of Martin Luther King saying, content to character, not colour of skin.

00:25:58.900 Hold on, Lawrence, hold on.

00:26:00.640 You – when you became a presenter on GB News, you agreed to the editorial charter.

00:26:06.060 Yeah, that's true.

00:26:06.720 Which you broke, right?

00:26:08.080 Well, I don't know if I've broken it.

00:26:09.100 You definitely did.

00:26:10.020 I mean, I've read it.

00:26:11.140 It says you must respect the opinions of others and those people.

00:26:14.400 And we've already agreed, not to go over old ground, but we've already agreed your comments were disrespectful data.

00:26:19.080 So you did break it, which is – look, people are going to break rules, and that happens.

00:26:23.640 So I have to say, as an outside observer, I think your criticism of GB News is unreasonable in this situation.

00:26:32.300 They have to.

00:26:33.460 They have to suspend you.

00:26:34.980 No, I'm not saying don't suspend me.

00:26:36.780 And probably sack you. 0.96

00:26:38.140 Yeah, I'm not.

00:26:38.580 And therefore, how can they defend your right to say it if they're suspending you for it?

00:26:43.880 How can they do that?

00:26:46.380 From their perspective, they're going, we're regulated by Ofcom.

00:26:49.340 Lawrence has broken our rules.

00:26:50.660 He's broken Ofcom rules.

00:26:52.140 Yeah.

00:26:52.700 So I think the issue you're fighting against here is that GB News is an Ofcom-regulated broadcaster and not a YouTube channel, let's say, right?

00:27:00.940 So they also – but, you know, just to – again, in terms of context.

00:27:03.740 Well, let's – in terms of context, I told them exactly what I was going to say, including the word shag. 0.99

00:27:10.720 I said, who would want to shag that? 1.00

00:27:11.780 And they were giggling away.

00:27:13.080 And they were giggling away right up until the moment the mob came for them.

00:27:16.960 So, yes, I've gone past their editorial thing.

00:27:19.440 Also, by the way, I'm totally happy to get sacked.

00:27:21.540 No, I know, I know.

00:27:22.320 But I'm saying your criticism is unfair, it seems to me.

00:27:25.500 Well, I don't – I think GB News are – what is the point in labelling yourself the home of free speech if you're going to cancel people for free speech?

00:27:35.500 It's an oxymoron.

00:27:36.420 Well, therefore, if your business model is to be the home of free speech, then either campaign to have Ofcom removed or do it online, surely.

00:27:45.920 Because if you can't – Ofcom have proven that free speech is not celebrated in this country.

00:27:50.980 We look at – the whole point of GB News existing in the media landscape was because every single other news channel was saying exactly the same thing.

00:27:58.060 So GB News came on, and the rest of the media looked at them and said, we'll get them.

00:28:01.720 Somehow we'll get them.

00:28:02.460 Someone will do it.

00:28:03.240 And if it hadn't been me that trod on the mine, it would have been someone else who trod on the mine at some point.

00:28:08.120 You know?

00:28:08.460 And that's what would have happened.

00:28:09.940 But what scares me is the fact that everyone wants them shut down.

00:28:17.820 That's what scares me.

00:28:19.160 Now, I think that they should have been a bit ballsier about the whole thing, if I'm honest.

00:28:25.360 I think what they should have done is instead of utterly completely condemn me, they should have turned around.

00:28:31.100 And they've possibly phoned me and said, listen, you – blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:36.320 What on earth was going on?

00:28:38.140 And let me at least explain, as I've explained here, what's going on.

00:28:41.760 And then take a pause to work out what is their position on this.

00:28:45.680 Have you spoken to anybody, though?

00:28:46.820 No, no one's called me at all.

00:28:47.860 It was on my phone.

00:28:50.280 It was on my phone.

00:28:51.880 And, you know, when you get those news things appearing, it went like Lawrence Fox spinning from GB News.

00:28:56.800 And I actually laughed because I thought, that's so funny that no one would even send you a message or anything like that.

00:29:04.320 So, yeah.

00:29:05.420 I mean, look, to be fair to GB News, they are – I mean, it's a tough situation to be.

00:29:11.240 It is a tough situation because, for context, for people watching from overseas, they've got an advertising boycott against them.

00:29:18.140 So they're hemorrhaging money.

00:29:19.700 They've got people pressuring them.

00:29:21.820 They've got people criticising them.

00:29:23.740 They've got the entire media ecology against them.

00:29:27.280 And all of a sudden, this –

00:29:28.420 Broadcast ecology.

00:29:29.240 Broadcast ecology.

00:29:30.320 That's the one.

00:29:31.060 Got it right.

00:29:31.480 So, in a way, it is understandable, Lawrence.

00:29:36.500 Yes.

00:29:36.980 No, I'm not going – it's all their fault.

00:29:39.580 Yeah.

00:29:39.820 It's all my fault.

00:29:40.460 I think we've gone through the –

00:29:41.600 Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:29:42.120 I think we've gone through the struggle session of it's all my fault.

00:29:45.800 Look, I hope it hasn't been a struggle session.

00:29:47.700 No, no, because I think – look, I'm – yeah, you know, I just – to me, in my brain, I just find the whole idea of Ofcom stunningly ridiculous.

00:29:58.460 Well, this is what I'm saying to you, is you're blaming GB News for being regulated.

00:30:03.580 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:04.240 I think that's kind of what you're fighting against it.

00:30:07.200 And by the way, just so that it doesn't feel too much like a struggle session, particularly on the broadcast ecology point,

00:30:13.240 there's actually a few videos that I want to play for people to get a little bit of context about what can happen on other channels

00:30:20.660 and what people do on other channels, and no one demands those channels are shut down.

00:30:25.860 So we have a clip of the man we just saw, Adam Bolton.

00:30:29.140 This is how he used to speak to staff when he was on Sky News.

00:30:32.380 By the way, he still works for Rupert Murdoch, so he's having a go at GB News.

00:30:36.660 I wonder if that's a complete accident.

00:30:38.480 Anyway, let's play this clip.

00:30:44.520 Yeah.

00:30:45.680 If Beth comes, put her in there. 0.91

00:30:49.840 And then she can go away.

00:30:51.660 I know, I know.

00:30:52.640 I know. 1.00

00:30:55.860 Just put the fucking seat in. 1.00

00:31:02.280 Have you got the grab yet? 1.00

00:31:09.300 Yeah, well, she's got to come and fucking sit here if she wants to be on telly. 1.00

00:31:12.860 Well, in the past few minutes, Mr. Johnson arrived. 1.00

00:31:29.280 What the fuck? 0.99

00:31:30.960 Sit down there! 1.00

00:31:38.680 Stop fucking around! 1.00

00:31:39.920 Come on, I'm meant to come on. 1.00

00:31:49.300 Yes.

00:31:49.940 Well, Beth is here.

00:31:59.260 You can see in Boris Johnson's speech when it happens around lunchtime, but Beth's here.

00:32:04.500 Great respecter of women, that guy.

00:32:06.520 Yeah, but I actually defend him.

00:32:08.780 You do?

00:32:09.340 Yeah, he wasn't on air.

00:32:10.380 And if you can't, I mean, God forbid what GB News have got stored in the cupboard of things I've said when we're not on air.

00:32:17.920 I can see why you're defending us.

00:32:19.800 No, but I don't care, because I'm saying he wasn't on air.

00:32:23.140 Yeah.

00:32:23.320 But I'm much more interested in the woman this morning who turned around yesterday on Times Radio in the middle of the day and went, 1.00

00:32:29.640 Lawrence Fox is a dick. 0.99

00:32:31.660 Because I wonder, is that the same level of... 0.99

00:32:33.920 Well, right, and actually, perhaps more to your point, we have a clip from Sky News talking about the Martin Bashir affair,

00:32:39.400 who, of course, tricked Princess Diana. 0.67

00:32:40.980 We don't even need to play it, because I think we can retell the story.

00:32:44.000 He tricked, using fraudulent documents, Princess Diana into giving an interview while working at the BBC.

00:32:50.620 Russell Brandt, Saxgate happened while he was working at the BBC.

00:32:55.340 I mean, we could go further into the history of BBC presenters' behaviour on and off screen without making this too non-see.

00:33:06.460 So all of that was wrong.

00:33:09.280 I think all the people were reprimanded, of the ones that were available to be reprimanded at the time.

00:33:14.640 But nobody called for the BBC to be shut down.

00:33:17.720 No.

00:33:18.600 Philip Schofield's behaviour didn't result in ITV being shut down or anyone calling for it to be shut down.

00:33:24.500 So the part...

00:33:25.380 I think we might have done, mate.

00:33:26.400 Yeah.

00:33:27.420 Nobody was paying attention to us.

00:33:29.060 Likely.

00:33:29.640 They are now.

00:33:30.540 So my point is, where I do agree with you, is there is clearly a politically motivated campaign to shut down GB News by, let's be honest, their rivals.

00:33:43.560 Yeah.

00:33:44.420 And, well, but also the establishment.

00:33:46.520 Yeah.

00:33:46.700 The establishment narrative.

00:33:47.940 So this media ecosystem or whatever, I've forgotten it now.

00:33:53.980 What's it called?

00:33:54.820 Broadcast ecology.

00:33:55.840 Yeah.

00:33:56.980 That reaches out, doesn't it?

00:34:00.300 Because it's a massive institution, the BBC and stuff like that.

00:34:04.600 The broadcast ecology reaches out into the cultural ecology of what is and isn't acceptable and where the Overton window sits within society.

00:34:11.000 GB News, you're right, I should separate out my criticisms.

00:34:16.000 GB News wanted to shift that.

00:34:18.920 Well, to do its best to provide, let's face it, 51% of the population with something to watch that they might learn something from or agree with.

00:34:27.980 And GB News often listens to its audience.

00:34:30.380 It doesn't tell them what to think.

00:34:32.060 It doesn't use that broadcast ecology thing.

00:34:33.760 But it all expands out to fill up our entire culture.

00:34:36.540 So, you know, newspapers will write the word she. 1.00

00:34:39.200 I was speaking to a journalist the other day and I was like, why do you go a picture of a big scraggly bearded man with a wig on and say, woman arrested and charged with sex offences, she will be sent.

00:34:51.200 You know, like, why do you do that?

00:34:52.380 And they say, it's just easier for the sub-editors to do it.

00:34:56.040 Because if someone doesn't write she, then you're going to get a complaint from someone else going, but he says it's a woman. 0.93

00:35:02.180 You know, and it broadens out and out and out and out and it affects our culture.

00:35:06.840 And I think I've just rambled myself into a corner.

00:35:10.440 What was I trying to say?

00:35:11.200 No, you were talking about the broadcast ecology.

00:35:14.800 Yeah, so the broadcast, so separating out Ofcom is right.

00:35:20.380 Why is Ofcommunists, the Ofcommunists, which is what they are, essentially anything with com on the end of it is just down for communism.

00:35:31.020 Elcom, we get Elcom, the Reclaimed Party, Elcommunists. 1.00

00:35:34.640 We get fined, investigated relentlessly, nonstop, unlike any other political party would.

00:35:41.260 And we're tiny like this.

00:35:42.360 You know, so I think there's a determined effort, not only to shut down GB News, but I think there's a determined effort to shut down anyone who is confident and okay to share an opinion.

00:35:55.880 The thing that I find really frustrating when it comes to broadcasters like the BBC.

00:36:01.760 So I actually watched that news night.

00:36:04.240 All those people around that table agreed.

00:36:06.800 They all agreed that...

00:36:08.280 They probably broke Ofcom rules.

00:36:09.700 They did break Ofcom rules.

00:36:11.100 They broke Ofcom rules because there was not one single person there who offered a dissenting voice.

00:36:16.300 GB News has Aaron Bastani come on, who we've had on the show.

00:36:19.220 Love Aaron.

00:36:20.080 Aaron is so far to the left, you can't see him, right?

00:36:23.760 Okay, he's ahead of Navarra Media.

00:36:26.680 Is he as far to the left as a Conservative Party?

00:36:29.620 It's a good point and a good joke.

00:36:31.500 So you go, you are not even adhering to your own rules where you talk about the fact that GB News is biased and doesn't, you know, and it only has one point of view.

00:36:43.440 But look at what you do.

00:36:45.200 But yeah, that's seen as fine.

00:36:47.420 That's what angers me.

00:36:48.920 Yeah, and I think probably the point I was trying to make is it's not really an anger at GB News.

00:36:55.340 It's more like going, guys, do you realise what is about to happen?

00:36:59.560 You're going to have to become Ofcom compliant, which means you have to become part of the ecology.

00:37:07.360 You know, and that means you're just going to be the same as all of the other channels.

00:37:13.060 Their desperate last move to not get removed is to become exactly the same as Sky News or BBC News or ITV News, just with no budget, no advertisers.

00:37:24.520 It's like you just go out there with swords and go, no, Ofcom, we're going to do this.

00:37:29.880 We're going to fight you on all of it.

00:37:30.860 No, but then they are going to get shut down.

00:37:32.240 Yeah, well, I don't know.

00:37:34.200 Maybe this is why you don't run a TV channel, Lawrence.

00:37:36.960 I don't want to run, I would never want to run a TV channel.

00:37:39.780 But I just don't think, I think Ofcom, what's the point of Ofcom?

00:37:43.160 It's just narrative gatekeeping.

00:37:45.220 Look, I've become more and more sympathetic to that position where watching what has actually happened.

00:37:52.600 I mean, are you worried for GB News?

00:37:55.160 If you were working for them, would you be worried?

00:37:57.780 I mean, you still are.

00:38:00.380 Currently, for the next however long, I've got the disciplinary at two, so we'll see.

00:38:05.120 I am, yeah, I am.

00:38:08.720 I don't think, I'm not sure how they can survive.

00:38:11.320 You know, again, this thing of like saying we're the home of free speech, but we've had to cancel a load of people.

00:38:16.360 That's not a good look for a TV channel because it's their USP.

00:38:20.300 I think that's a problem for them.

00:38:21.380 I think that they'll have to dumb themselves down so dramatically that they'll become indistinguishable from any other news channel.

00:38:29.660 And I think their presenters will all be so, have all their authenticity taken away from them that they'll just have to sort of say this sort of same thing with a very slight right-leaning tendency, you know.

00:38:41.480 And, but also they've burned a lot of bridges now with, you know, this is suspended Calvin Robinson for not going on someone's show because he's trying to, he's saying, Dan Whitton hasn't been sacked yet or may not be sacked at all.

00:38:54.780 So until that investigation is complete, I'm not going to go on someone else's show because I would feel that that would personally compromise my loyalty to him as a person.

00:39:03.560 It's the guilty until proven innocent thing, which is, you know, which is a much bigger problem in society as we know.

00:39:12.740 Not to make this more of a struggle session, but do you feel responsible for what's happening to GB News now?

00:39:18.400 Are you quite happy that you've sort of highlighted this issue?

00:39:21.940 How do you feel about it?

00:39:22.880 No, I don't.

00:39:23.820 I'm pissed off with myself for that.

00:39:26.700 I don't have any malevolence towards GB News.

00:39:30.660 Um, I was, I really enjoyed going on and pursuing the stories that I managed to get out.

00:39:37.700 And certainly with the, you know, just recently with the Sidiscus through malicious family and all of that sort of stuff. 0.88

00:39:43.020 I really, I thought this is great.

00:39:44.620 This is a channel that's talking about this.

00:39:47.080 Um, look, I, I think that they've jumped too much.

00:39:54.740 Am I responsible?

00:39:55.820 I am in a way because look, where's it come from?

00:39:59.160 Um, but am I responsible for saying what I said?

00:40:01.880 No, I'm responsible because they took me on the bait. 0.99

00:40:05.580 I said the stupid thing and the entire social media and media descended on me. 0.97

00:40:10.840 But, no, Lawrence, but I come back to this point, which I think is important for this discussion, not to try and make you look bad or anything, but they had to sack you. 0.99

00:40:18.360 I know, I get that.

00:40:19.220 I get, I'm not saying that.

00:40:20.680 Okay, sorry.

00:40:21.280 You're, you're missing my point.

00:40:21.880 Okay, I'm misunderstanding.

00:40:22.740 I've said that several times.

00:40:24.020 Yeah.

00:40:24.180 They came for me.

00:40:25.920 All of them. 0.66

00:40:26.740 And as you quite rightly pointed out, this is rank hypocrisy. 0.51

00:40:30.360 Yes.

00:40:30.620 From the, from the media ecology.

00:40:32.300 They came for me and they came en masse.

00:40:36.700 So, yes, I am responsible.

00:40:37.880 But what should GB News do when, when that happens?

00:40:41.060 You said something unacceptable that breaks the rules, both theirs and off-coms.

00:40:45.200 All these people come for you, as you say.

00:40:46.940 Yeah.

00:40:47.100 I, I agree with you, massive overreaction.

00:40:49.700 Yeah.

00:40:49.880 Even though your comments were wrong, in my opinion.

00:40:51.760 But what should GB News do in that situation?

00:40:53.560 I don't know.

00:40:54.120 I think they probably don't have much option.

00:40:56.320 I don't know why they, I don't know why they suspended Dan.

00:40:59.360 Nor do I, actually.

00:41:00.120 But I think, you know, Dan's had some problems there with people trying to take him down.

00:41:07.420 I don't know why they've suspended Calvin this morning.

00:41:10.200 I don't know why, you know.

00:41:11.400 It's like, I think there's a, you know, I think there's just, there must be somewhere in a big room,

00:41:18.660 somewhere they're going, look, we're losing £30 million a year.

00:41:21.440 We need to get some advertisers.

00:41:23.660 We're going to need to dumb this whole thing down.

00:41:26.000 Make it very, you know, advertising.

00:41:29.580 Mainstream.

00:41:30.240 Yeah.

00:41:30.680 Yeah.

00:41:31.120 Which is fine.

00:41:32.260 Also do it.

00:41:33.240 But don't hire me.

00:41:35.900 I mean, that's good advice.

00:41:37.780 It's like, they know what I'm like.

00:41:41.020 They know what I've done, what I've said, and how open I am with what I, what I speak.

00:41:46.300 They tired me.

00:41:47.880 I take full responsibility for what I said.

00:41:50.060 And I fully support their right to fire me.

00:41:52.740 I'm not trying to, also I'm really not interested in protecting my job for the reasons I've already laid out

00:41:58.560 about the atmosphere in the place anyway.

00:42:00.860 But they did hire me.

00:42:02.800 And they did know that you are, you're hiring someone who's on the edge.

00:42:06.840 And as Angelo himself said, sails pretty close to the wind on what is, what is free speech.

00:42:11.440 Now, if free speech is your passion and your interest, and you see it as the only way out of a problem that we've got in culture,

00:42:19.320 then you are going to step on landmines when you do it in the way that I do it.

00:42:25.380 I'm constantly looking for what the edge of acceptability is.

00:42:28.680 And I've trodden over it.

00:42:29.780 And so be it.

00:42:30.840 Bye.

00:42:32.040 You know, I've got, I'm not, it's not, I'm not sitting here going, it's so unfair.

00:42:38.380 I'm not like that.

00:42:39.560 It's not, I don't, I own my mistakes.

00:42:41.140 Lawrence, do you think as well, I think it's very interesting, if you cast your mind back to literally a week,

00:42:48.400 these broadcasters, particularly Channel 4 and BBC, were under heavy fire because of the Russell Brand allegations.

00:42:55.880 Yeah.

00:42:56.320 Heavy fire.

00:42:57.420 And a lot of very difficult and important questions were being asked about the way that these broadcasters conducted themselves

00:43:07.040 and also how their presenters conducted themselves and whether people were being put in danger around these presenters.

00:43:15.800 All of a sudden, this blows up.

00:43:18.880 They then come after GB News.

00:43:21.440 And look, maybe it's me being heavily conspiratorial.

00:43:23.820 I'm here going, is this just a massive deflectionary tactic?

00:43:27.540 Yeah, of course it is.

00:43:28.700 And also, as someone quite rightly pointed out, the only time I've laughed since Monday was someone said,

00:43:35.960 hang on a minute, everyone's being in such a fuss for someone shagging too many people

00:43:41.020 and you're getting cancelled for not wanting to shag someone.

00:43:45.460 That's what they're against the need for.

00:43:47.040 Yeah, you know, but the knives have been out for GB News from day one, even from within the organisation, man.

00:43:52.540 There's loads of people in there who hate that channel and want to take it down.

00:43:58.040 Why are they working there?

00:43:59.640 Because people need money, you know.

00:44:02.500 And you're trained at a technical college or you're trained by the BBC or whatever and you don't get a job and you move and you get GB News and whatever.

00:44:08.480 Lawrence, you know what worries me about this whole situation is, irrespective of how crass and offensive your comments were, whatever,

00:44:17.080 we've got to a point where I think a very significant portion of our chattering classes care more about people's words than about their actions.

00:44:25.800 And that, I don't get that.

00:44:32.000 It's easier to care about someone's words.

00:44:34.480 If someone says the right thing, it's like, you know, like critical race theory.

00:44:39.020 It's so much harder to solve actual inequalities in society than just by saying, well, if you're black, you're repressed.

00:44:46.320 Rather than going, well, no, actually, if you're poor and you can't afford to feed your own family, you're repressed by a system which needs to be reformed.

00:44:52.500 And the difficulty is, yeah, we celebrate false virtue.

00:44:59.300 That's one of the most important aspects of the modern progressive world that we live in.

00:45:05.400 And we don't look at people's actions.

00:45:08.680 I'm actually fairly, I'm proud of a lot of what I've done.

00:45:11.380 And I'm proud of a lot of the relationships that I have with people who profoundly disagree with me.

00:45:16.400 And I've built bridges where bridges cannot be built.

00:45:19.160 I suppose the worrying part now is I'm going to have to leave the UK, I think.

00:45:25.720 That's my main concern, is like I'm cancelled from my own country.

00:45:31.000 Why do you have to leave the UK?

00:45:32.220 Well, I've got to earn a living.

00:45:33.860 I've got two kids to put through school and feed, you know.

00:45:37.300 So that's, I think, what will have to happen.

00:45:39.460 I mean, do you think I should?

00:45:40.940 I mean, I'm really happy to nip over to talk TV and knock on the door and go, hey, guys.

00:45:48.720 Anyone hiring?

00:45:50.080 You know.

00:45:50.380 I mean, they need the views a lot.

00:45:52.320 They do, to be fair, mate.

00:45:53.680 Yeah.

00:45:54.200 I mean, do you think it's really that bad?

00:45:57.060 Or is this, you know, is this going to...

00:45:59.220 I've been cancelled twice, man.

00:46:01.180 I've had my acting career taken away from me for saying something totally nothing wrong.

00:46:05.760 You know, so, yes, I've gone over the, we've done that bit.

00:46:11.660 But I had my acting career removed from, for saying that England is a tolerant, warm, welcoming nation.

00:46:17.580 So I've been cancelled once.

00:46:19.160 That's, and I had to drag myself up with, actually, you helped me put together a Patreon and all that sort of stuff.

00:46:24.160 You know, this is how you do it.

00:46:25.280 Drag myself back up out of that one and finally got back to a position.

00:46:32.300 And then I'm cancelled again.

00:46:33.580 So I know how hard it is to pick yourself up from these situations.

00:46:38.260 So, you know, I'm not, I don't know if I've got the energy for it, if I'm honest.

00:46:42.140 Maybe I'll be on the male suicide list. 0.89

00:46:43.900 You never know.

00:46:44.860 I mean, look, but as well, Lawrence, you're very charismatic.

00:46:49.800 You're a great presenter.

00:46:51.280 You're incredibly likeable.

00:46:52.680 You've got a huge audience.

00:46:54.460 You've got a lot of people who love what you do.

00:46:57.520 You're very employable.

00:46:58.680 Thanks, Mum.

00:46:59.460 It's true.

00:47:00.180 I'm not saying, none of these things that I'm saying are wrong or incorrect.

00:47:04.260 There's a lot of people who would look at you and think to themselves, yeah. 0.86

00:47:08.240 I would shank him.

00:47:09.220 Yes, exactly. 0.98

00:47:11.180 You can tell it went to boarding school, mate.

00:47:13.080 I'm taken, mate.

00:47:14.180 I'm taken.

00:47:15.000 I'm afraid.

00:47:16.060 It depends how much you want the gig, Lawrence.

00:47:18.240 Yeah.

00:47:18.560 It's actually the casting couch.

00:47:21.780 Yeah.

00:47:22.200 Bring it back.

00:47:22.740 I'll be queuing all of it.

00:47:23.740 Well, look, man.

00:47:24.300 I will say this.

00:47:25.140 And I don't like the joke you made about being on the male suicide list because I think...

00:47:29.160 I wasn't joking.

00:47:31.140 I know you weren't.

00:47:31.920 Yeah.

00:47:32.060 This is why I don't like it because I think I don't like that we...

00:47:37.200 I'll say it again so this can't be clipped out of context.

00:47:40.260 I didn't agree with what you said.

00:47:41.660 I didn't like what you said.

00:47:42.960 But I don't like living in a society where making a crass comment puts you in this position.

00:47:48.800 No, we shouldn't.

00:47:49.220 That's not right.

00:47:50.240 No, it's not.

00:47:50.620 That's not right.

00:47:51.640 And it's not.

00:47:52.040 When I was talking about it, like when I went through it last time, those thoughts did go

00:47:55.760 through my head.

00:47:56.480 So you're like, you know, what's next?

00:47:59.960 What's coming next? 1.00

00:48:00.700 And totally accept my own stupid fault as well. 1.00

00:48:03.480 But we shouldn't live in a society that does that. 0.99

00:48:04.860 No, this isn't right.

00:48:05.860 That does that to people.

00:48:07.000 And we also...

00:48:08.580 We're talking principles rather than regulators.

00:48:11.080 We should not live in a society where your only chance of survival in existence is to

00:48:15.740 kowtow and bow to the whims of a council mob that will want to eat you regardless of what 1.00

00:48:21.640 you've got to say if it doesn't agree with whatever the mob's mood is that day.

00:48:25.140 That is a terrifying place for a society to be.

00:48:28.400 And I will say this as well.

00:48:29.820 I think with Ava, who made the comments about male suicide, which I think were, you know, 1.00

00:48:34.080 grotesque and unacceptable, she's probably got a lot of shit. 0.99

00:48:37.440 And that really shouldn't be happening either. 0.99

00:48:39.740 You know, both you and her should be in a position where you express opinions that lots

00:48:44.380 of other people don't like. 0.99

00:48:45.740 But this idea that we just gang up on people and we just spout shit at them until they 1.00

00:48:51.300 want to go and kill themselves. 0.99

00:48:52.040 I don't gang up on anybody.

00:48:53.140 I'm not saying you.

00:48:53.780 No, no, I'm just saying this is why I hate that side of the argument. 0.97

00:48:57.600 And I hate the ideology that she represents because it's disgustingly vile, divisive and 0.98

00:49:02.840 hateful. 0.96

00:49:03.460 And it supports the cancellation of people. 1.00

00:49:05.700 The number of people that come onto my feed and go, ha, ha, ha, you're fucked. 1.00

00:49:09.620 You're fucked, mate. 1.00

00:49:10.340 You're dead. 1.00

00:49:10.800 It's over. 0.99

00:49:11.980 You know, it's like I would never do that to someone.

00:49:15.500 You wouldn't.

00:49:16.360 But I imagine she's had a lot of people do that to her.

00:49:18.720 Well, and she's been talked about how much it is.

00:49:21.360 So I don't bother wasting my time pretty much going through the replies to my feed because 0.99

00:49:26.260 a lot of them are like, I hope your kids die. 1.00

00:49:28.880 I hope you all die. 1.00

00:49:29.900 Watch your back. 1.00

00:49:30.580 You'll get started.

00:49:30.960 I don't bother to go for the victim thing because I don't believe in victims.

00:49:34.980 I believe in courageous people.

00:49:36.620 I admire courage.

00:49:38.520 And therefore, it is pretty bad.

00:49:42.000 So it's a complex situation.

00:49:44.540 We can agree that what I said was wrong.

00:49:47.180 We can then think about what should the consequences of that be.

00:49:51.980 Now, I'm totally happy to go, right, you're right.

00:49:55.860 I went past you and saw your code.

00:49:57.340 Goodbye.

00:49:58.100 Leave. 0.99

00:49:58.360 But that means, for the second time, that I, where am I going to get a job in the UK?

00:50:05.880 What am I going to do?

00:50:07.680 You know?

00:50:08.240 And that is when you're a father, and most of the stuff I do anyway, the reason I spoke

00:50:12.560 out in the first place, which was on trigonometry, ironically, in 20, whenever, 2019, was to say

00:50:20.880 this world is in a really bad place and I've got children and I don't want them to grow up.

00:50:26.500 I need to do some of the fighting so I don't leave them to have to do the fighting.

00:50:29.640 I had a half an hour conversation with one of my son's PSHE coordinators who was saying,

00:50:35.100 I was saying, she said, we don't teach extreme ideologies.

00:50:38.660 And I said, like what?

00:50:40.700 Like trans and stuff, because that's an extreme ideology, isn't it? 1.00

00:50:43.600 And she went, oh no, we teach that. 0.99

00:50:45.620 And I said, white privilege, do you teach that?

00:50:47.960 And they're like, yep, pronouns, yep, social transitioning.

00:50:51.440 So I'm like, those are all extreme ideologies.

00:50:53.680 I'm fighting my ass off to make sure that my kid can leave school not totally part of the

00:51:02.700 media ecology or the cultural ecology, you know?

00:51:07.140 Where the most important thing in this world is that people are themselves and we are living

00:51:10.780 in a culture that is making people, being yourself, contingent on the fact that you don't 0.99

00:51:15.660 have a job, you don't have a livelihood and it's game over should you fuck up even once. 0.99

00:51:20.720 But Lawrence, I will say- 0.95

00:51:22.240 Francis, sorry, before you do that, I'll just say, I want our audience to get a chance to

00:51:26.740 say, ask a few questions and chip in here.

00:51:29.460 So send in your questions now.

00:51:31.760 We're going to go to a quick break shortly after Francis asked a few questions and we'll

00:51:36.820 be answering your questions and putting them to Lawrence as well.

00:51:39.100 Look, I think it's very important at this point for everybody who's watching and listening

00:51:43.780 who is in a situation where they feel that they are without hope.

00:51:47.180 And this is extended to you, that there is always hope, Lawrence.

00:51:50.740 I know.

00:51:51.080 When things seem at their most bleak, it's sometimes the moment or frequently the moment

00:51:59.480 where things can turn around.

00:52:01.160 You're blessed when you're at the end of your rope.

00:52:02.740 Yeah, I know it very good.

00:52:04.180 It's just, you know, if you've had two 48 hours of every single pop-up on your phone,

00:52:11.500 every single media channel, everything aimed at you.

00:52:15.640 Yes. 0.88

00:52:16.240 And how evil you are, it makes you very, very raw.

00:52:19.320 Yeah, so look, let's also talk about this as well, because this is an important part

00:52:25.340 of the discussion.

00:52:26.000 We've done the rest of it.

00:52:27.320 What is it like being in the centre of this media storm right now?

00:52:32.360 Well, you can't eat.

00:52:34.500 You thrive on cortisol.

00:52:36.620 So it's like being, you can see me, I'm itching.

00:52:40.040 It's very itchy.

00:52:41.060 You feel hopeless.

00:52:43.320 It's very painful.

00:52:45.240 And you feel, you know, you can't really, you can't feel sorry for yourself because your 0.99

00:52:52.980 own fucking thing, you've done it. 1.00

00:52:55.480 So it's not that. 1.00

00:52:56.980 And you just feel, I feel, I get upset about, a little bit upset about the hypocrisy of it

00:53:05.380 all, I suppose, but I'm just not surprised.

00:53:07.860 You know, that's the nature of these things.

00:53:10.040 It's horrible.

00:53:10.980 Who would want to live in it?

00:53:12.320 You know, it makes you want to buy a small log cabin in a fjord somewhere in Norway and

00:53:17.120 write a long James Joyce-esque type book for the next 15 years and wait for Britain to

00:53:23.960 rot, you know, and then see what happens.

00:53:27.280 And what effect has it had on the people around you and your kids?

00:53:31.300 My poor kids are amazing, but they know who I am.

00:53:37.140 They know what version of, they know who I am.

00:53:40.500 So they're not going to believe stuff that they say in the media.

00:53:43.480 My sons are amazing.

00:53:46.720 You know, people outside of that situation will use it to weaponize.

00:53:50.440 There's a very famous actor who went up to my son at school and told him he was, his

00:53:55.420 dad was a fascist. 0.59

00:53:56.380 You know, which I think is about as repellent behavior as possible. 0.63

00:54:01.900 But yeah, no, my family affects my family.

00:54:04.720 It affects everybody.

00:54:06.960 You know, that's what it does.

00:54:09.260 But I, you know, yet again, regardless of what, of this current issue, there has been

00:54:17.220 a target on my back for four years.

00:54:20.280 Yeah.

00:54:20.600 And that target is not going anywhere.

00:54:23.120 It's getting sharper, harder.

00:54:24.600 People are zooming in on it.

00:54:26.380 And, you know, thank God I'm not a sort of rapey person because they can't, you know,

00:54:31.020 I was like, when are the next, when do the sexual abuse allegations come in?

00:54:34.720 Next?

00:54:35.480 Do they?

00:54:36.320 You know, this lack of truth.

00:54:38.640 If you're not watching a process take place honestly, like the Russell Brand thing was

00:54:43.580 not honest, the way they went about that.

00:54:45.600 And I don't even like Russell Brand.

00:54:47.260 I find him an irritating man, if I'm really honest.

00:54:49.380 But you could see levers were pulled, machines were set in motion.

00:54:55.920 And all of it was-

00:54:56.340 What do you mean?

00:54:57.160 Well, where were the police? 0.99

00:54:58.560 If you've got a problem and you've been sexually abused and raped- 0.98

00:55:01.940 Lawrence, it's not that simple, mate. 0.98

00:55:03.380 No, but what is-

00:55:04.280 It's not that simple.

00:55:05.040 What is-

00:55:05.860 I'm not making it simple.

00:55:07.420 I'm turning around and saying, before someone has been formally charged with sexual assault-

00:55:13.300 Oh, he's innocent until proven guilty. 1.00

00:55:14.800 And you do not have the culture minister or whatever, a stupid name, writing to people 1.00

00:55:22.360 trying to have- 1.00

00:55:23.220 Completely unacceptable, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:24.560 That is communism.

00:55:26.880 Well, it's a member of the committee, the chair of the committee-

00:55:32.400 She's an MP for Gosport.

00:55:33.820 Yeah.

00:55:34.140 Do you think she's-

00:55:34.980 She was completely unacceptable. 0.93

00:55:36.540 That's what I'm saying.

00:55:37.340 It demeans the problem that they're trying to solve, which is the under-reporting and under-conviction

00:55:42.160 of female sexual assault.

00:55:43.420 Yeah.

00:55:43.580 So anyone who's got even the vaguest level of sceptical thought over a government which

00:55:50.440 has lied to us relentlessly and relentlessly, you're feeding us.

00:55:53.800 So your point is that that happening, sort of like, it creates more doubt in people's

00:55:59.520 minds about the credibility of the allegations.

00:56:02.120 Which I agree with you entirely on, and I think it's slightly different to the point

00:56:05.920 about go to the police, because it is more complicated than that.

00:56:08.500 A lot of-

00:56:09.000 We've spoken to people who've been victims of sexual assault, and a lot of them will

00:56:13.320 say, you know, it's my word against his, he's much more powerful, all of that stuff.

00:56:17.820 And I understand that stuff, actually.

00:56:18.980 Yeah, me too.

00:56:19.420 I really do.

00:56:20.040 But I think, you know, Francis and I would both agree with you, and we said it at the

00:56:24.000 time, that, you know, these rumours about Russell Brand have been going around in our industry

00:56:28.860 for over a decade.

00:56:30.300 So-

00:56:30.500 Do you think, and Russell Brand is the tip of the iceberg?

00:56:32.880 I worked in show business for 25 years, and as I've said before, the number of national

00:56:37.880 treasures I could bury is beyond stuff, you know, and that's not for things like sexual assault.

00:56:44.160 And it's the same with Russell Brand and comedy.

00:56:46.040 There's a lot of other people that should have been in the article, but weren't, and I'm

00:56:50.600 curious to find out why that is.

00:56:52.040 Well, look, it's like, we've got a problem in the UK.

00:56:59.000 We've got a major, major problem, and I don't think people quite, we've talked about it before,

00:57:04.300 but it's got steadily worse to the point where, you know, there's a legitimate reason for sanctioning

00:57:10.180 me.

00:57:10.700 But I think the level of it will make some people think, as you said, is there an ulterior

00:57:17.200 motive?

00:57:17.600 Was there, like, oh, we can distract from the BBC Russell Brand stuff, and we'll just

00:57:21.920 jump on GB News, get Lawrence done, because that's what we do, because he's a blubbermouth

00:57:26.060 and he says the wrong thing frequently.

00:57:29.180 And, again, it applies skepticism.

00:57:31.500 And if this girl, Ava, is talking about, you know, sexual assaults and all of that sort

00:57:37.880 of stuff, weaponizing words like, I want men to be terrified and all that, that diminishes

00:57:44.240 away from the goal of what we all, as a society, you must have girlfriends and you must have

00:57:50.460 girlfriends and I have girlfriends.

00:57:51.420 I don't have girlfriends, I'm just married.

00:57:52.800 I know, there are friends that are girls who have experienced, at the very least, unwanted

00:57:57.920 sexual advances, and at the very worst, much more.

00:58:01.020 So we have to have a conversation as a society, how do we deal with that problem?

00:58:06.900 One of the ways of having that conversation is to have a free and open conversation about

00:58:10.620 it, you know.

00:58:11.420 And I don't think that the way the media have handled Russell Brand, and I don't think the

00:58:15.520 word she used on that show, which, you know, I know it's harder to get, but she does use

00:58:19.280 the word frightened, terrified.

00:58:21.500 I don't think that's going to happen.

00:58:22.340 This is a talk TV discussion from last year with Conor Tomlinson.

00:58:25.400 I don't think that's going to make, you know, and I know a lot of men, one of the other

00:58:31.120 things is not talked about, whereas men maybe use sexual violence, women will use psychological

00:58:36.460 violence against men.

00:58:37.860 They will abduct children.

00:58:39.200 They will completely remove children from their, the father's life. 0.61

00:58:44.580 And fathers, again, will commit suicide as a result of it, which Jeff Norcock wants to

00:58:50.100 talk about in a balanced, fair way, but know that the media ecology or the broadcasting

00:58:56.040 ecology, you're not allowed to talk about that.

00:58:57.940 We've got to talk about how bad it is for girls. 0.67

00:58:59.680 All right, Lawrence, we've done an hour's interview, and I really want our audience to have their

00:59:04.200 say.

00:59:04.380 I have no idea what they think of what you're saying, of what we're saying, and I actually

00:59:07.600 think it's really important to get them involved.

00:59:09.200 So we're going to take a break for a couple of minutes, get you another cup of water or whatever.

00:59:12.880 Lovely.

00:59:13.540 And we'll be back in a couple of minutes with your questions.

00:59:16.440 Keep the super chats coming in.

00:59:17.720 We've got some PayPals as well.

00:59:18.860 We're going to be reading out some of the best ones, and we'll do about half an hour

00:59:22.840 when we come back.

00:59:24.140 See you in a couple of minutes.

00:59:25.120 I need to take a laugh.

00:59:26.780 Hey, guys.

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01:00:49.860 Hello and welcome back to our exclusive live interview with Lawrence Fox.

01:00:55.180 This is the segment where you get to ask your questions to Lawrence.

01:00:58.580 So make sure to send through a PayPal or a Super Chat and we'll put your questions to

01:01:03.320 Lawrence himself.

01:01:03.940 Before we go into the questions, I will say you were very on brand right as we finished

01:01:07.820 the interview.

01:01:08.440 Before we cut off, you went, I need a waz and stood up. 0.84

01:01:12.040 And that is the last thing that people saw.

01:01:14.120 I'm sorry.

01:01:14.920 That's absolutely fine.

01:01:16.180 I'm so sorry.

01:01:16.660 That is absolutely fine.

01:01:17.720 It's right.

01:01:18.200 Don't fire me.

01:01:19.540 I don't want to breach your editorial code.

01:01:22.020 Plus, that is the sort of stuff that we do here anyway.

01:01:24.740 So on High Like Eagle, sending a super chat, says, how do you maintain the stability of

01:01:28.900 your sons during this turbulent time?

01:01:30.520 Are there many mates supporting you personally too?

01:01:32.820 Do your attacks like this give you more courage to fight on?

01:01:37.160 Very good question.

01:01:39.280 My children are, you know, your kids, as you know, as any father knows, they are a lot of

01:01:46.060 your reason for living.

01:01:47.000 So I do what I always do, which is I make a family dinner every night when they go back

01:01:52.980 from school. 1.00

01:01:53.880 And, you know, they have breakfast by themselves because they're grumpy little bastards. 0.99

01:01:57.380 But when they get back from school, I make them a homemade meal every night. 0.99

01:02:00.320 And we sit down and we talk through issues.

01:02:02.660 And, you know, what you've got to do when you're going through something like this is

01:02:04.920 give out to your children.

01:02:07.540 So don't go into yourself on, you know, when I've had these before, my little ones come

01:02:13.420 up and said, are you all right, Dad?

01:02:14.660 And you don't really want that from your kids.

01:02:16.700 So you want to, I'm like, how was your day?

01:02:18.880 And you just struck out of it.

01:02:21.040 I've had, I'm very blessed with an amazing woman who is really supporting me, which has

01:02:27.780 been great.

01:02:28.200 And some really good friends, you know, it's, I mean, it's great.

01:02:33.300 The situation is like, these are great friend culling moments.

01:02:37.400 So we get to go around and cull again.

01:02:39.900 But I've had, you know, I'm, I'm, my life is hugely blessed, really.

01:02:43.800 So I, you know, I've got my health and I've got my kids and I've got love.

01:02:48.100 So that's all that matters, really.

01:02:50.400 Absolutely.

01:02:51.840 Richard E asks, Lawrence, what are your plans for the future?

01:02:56.120 I don't know, man.

01:02:57.280 I'm not sure.

01:02:58.620 I'm doing a lot of the law, our legal stuff.

01:03:01.620 We're going to take the Department of Education to court to stop the, I mean, they've already,

01:03:05.920 the government are starting to come around on, onto our ideas.

01:03:10.500 But we've got a lot, a lot of families of kids who've been socially transitioned and

01:03:14.160 moved on to the full transitioning and been regretted the, the full stuff.

01:03:21.240 And, you know, we, we want the Department of Education to lay out some very clear guidance

01:03:25.200 or just even possibly uphold the existing one and stop the, you know, teachers, well,

01:03:32.480 activists that were formerly known as teachers and indoctrinating our children with this same

01:03:37.080 mind rubbish that's filling up the rest of the society.

01:03:39.440 Emmy BL says, not a question, just to say that most women fully support men's health, 0.56

01:03:44.900 especially mental health being given due attention, which I think is objectively just true. 0.68

01:03:49.160 And she says, I appreciated Lawrence's apology.

01:03:51.760 It felt sincere and thoughtful. 0.99

01:03:53.580 What a shit show this all is. 0.99

01:03:55.380 Yeah, I think that's the truth. 1.00

01:03:56.720 It is a shit show. 1.00

01:03:57.560 And that's very, very sad. 1.00

01:03:58.720 And I do feel, you know, actually, I do feel really sad that I've put GB News in this position

01:04:05.860 where they're now sort of desperately cancelling everybody.

01:04:10.560 And they, Angelos certainly has been, never been anything other than a gentleman really

01:04:15.160 charming to me.

01:04:16.120 So I, you know, it is a reciprocal relationship and I do, I have let them down in that way,

01:04:20.580 which is why I apologised yesterday because I wanted to, I wasn't apologising because I don't,

01:04:26.360 I'm not trying to say, please, can I have my job?

01:04:28.740 I'm not at all.

01:04:29.420 I'm apologising because I have my own conscience, which leads on to this idea, which I actually,

01:04:33.780 we touched on last time, which is if you've got two sides of an ever increasing tribalism,

01:04:40.980 which won't speak to each other, you're going to have a fight at some point.

01:04:45.340 And this is the skirmishes that are going on at the moment, you know, we'll cancel them,

01:04:48.620 get rid of them, but that becomes, it will become physical one day.

01:04:51.780 So part of being a Christian is also to forgive.

01:04:54.300 And you can't forgive unless you ask for repentance, you know.

01:04:59.080 And so that was what the point of my video was, was to say genuinely to her,

01:05:03.440 so she understood that it was totally genuine that I apologised for the way I spoke to her,

01:05:07.680 whilst not apologising for the sentiment behind what I spoke.

01:05:10.420 And I believe that the world, if we lived in a more forgiving world,

01:05:17.040 then where forgiveness was upheld as a real value, was sexy, was cool.

01:05:23.620 Yeah.

01:05:24.220 Rather than counselling it, which is cool.

01:05:26.180 Well, this is why we wanted to have you on and have this discussion, actually.

01:05:30.360 And in terms of the tribes fighting, it's what we are trying to do here,

01:05:33.620 which is what we've always tried to do.

01:05:35.380 And that's why, you know, we had Aaron Bastani on recently and Mark Steele.

01:05:39.080 And I did a debate on the moral maze with Ash Sarkar.

01:05:42.000 She will come on when she's got a book out.

01:05:43.960 We want to bring people together and have really good, healthy conversations.

01:05:47.280 And do them like this, where you get to see the whole person.

01:05:51.740 You know, you said some things that people will disagree with and I disagree with,

01:05:55.980 but you're also a great guy.

01:05:57.380 And, you know, when I've been around your kids, you're a great dad.

01:06:00.160 And you are, like all of us, a rounded human being who is fallible, who makes mistakes,

01:06:06.120 lives on the edge, as you say, and sometimes you do go too far.

01:06:08.740 And you and I have had our private disagreements and whatever.

01:06:11.580 But, you know, I think it's really important to humanise each other in that way.

01:06:16.880 I really do.

01:06:17.700 I agree with you.

01:06:18.480 I think we, if we, you know, we lose humanity if we don't.

01:06:24.520 Oh, absolutely.

01:06:25.540 I'm not really getting a lot of messages through.

01:06:28.640 I've only had two through.

01:06:29.600 But I will, this is one message that I've got through that is not a question.

01:06:33.600 Well, it kind of is actually.

01:06:34.620 It's from Richard E.

01:06:35.740 Lawrence Fox is a freedom fighter for free speech.

01:06:38.860 Hopefully he will start his own platform, question mark.

01:06:42.120 Yeah, well, I'll have to do something because literally I've got to feed children. 0.93

01:06:46.620 And this is that when you, as a man, you know, again, going back to the idea of man,

01:06:51.700 and women I'm sure as well, but the first thing a man thinks is like,

01:06:54.680 how am I going to feed my kids?

01:06:56.000 Yep.

01:06:57.000 I'm pretty sure that's what women think as well. 1.00

01:06:58.980 Yeah, I did say.

01:07:00.340 I know, I know, I was just joking.

01:07:02.040 But in a, if you're in a marriage or something like that,

01:07:05.780 then, you know, sometimes it's not the end of the world.

01:07:07.900 But if you're, A, doing what I do, which is, I'm pretty busy all the time.

01:07:11.840 I have a lot of structural support around my life to make sure that I can provide my kids

01:07:16.780 with the time that they need and, you know, and everything that they need to do

01:07:20.800 because that's the, they are the most important thing.

01:07:23.620 So, yeah, I think I probably will.

01:07:25.400 I don't know.

01:07:26.380 I'll have to work out what to do.

01:07:28.920 Yep.

01:07:29.200 I mean, you know, got a few million people watched my thing yesterday.

01:07:34.100 Including Elon Musk?

01:07:35.080 Including Elon Musk, yeah.

01:07:36.280 Matt Shaw says, Sadiq Khan spends millions of public money on his May campaign.

01:07:42.840 What's he got to say about suicide number one cause of death among men under 50?

01:07:47.940 Nothing.

01:07:48.560 Doesn't care.

01:07:49.360 Nobody does.

01:07:50.640 Well, if we convince Sadiq Khan that suicide in men under 50 was caused by climate change,

01:07:55.060 I'm sure he'd be really involved.

01:07:58.120 But, again, you know, if you think about it, are men, like, is the feminisation of men helping them?

01:08:04.480 No.

01:08:04.700 It's not.

01:08:05.480 It's not.

01:08:06.040 Men need to go. 1.00

01:08:07.280 Like, I'm lucky because I was raised to be expressive.

01:08:10.320 I mean, unlucky in certain situations as well.

01:08:13.080 But I do tell people how I feel.

01:08:15.960 So if I felt really desperate, I think I would tell someone.

01:08:19.600 But I've got so many people I know who just wouldn't.

01:08:23.220 And you get the call.

01:08:24.660 And it's just heartbreaking.

01:08:27.940 And you go, you're a friend.

01:08:29.980 And you're like, why didn't I see it?

01:08:31.840 Why couldn't I have spotted it?

01:08:33.180 Why didn't I say anything?

01:08:34.500 Why didn't I say to someone that they knew that I was worried?

01:08:37.580 Or, you know, because we're...

01:08:40.120 And I don't think any of this is going to help cucking men. 0.93

01:08:43.040 Sorry. 0.94

01:08:43.220 No, I don't think it will.

01:08:44.640 I also don't think men talking about their feelings is necessarily the answer to all of this.

01:08:48.400 I think for men, the answer is doing things you love, solving whatever problems are causing you to be unhappy.

01:08:55.180 Whether that is through, you know, therapy or whatever.

01:08:57.980 But it shouldn't be like, oh, I feel bad.

01:08:59.780 Oh, really?

01:09:00.260 We're so sorry for you.

01:09:01.060 It should actually help you overcome the issues that you're dealing with.

01:09:04.460 Exercise.

01:09:05.540 You know, like, I worked out in my late 20s how to give myself depression in a week flat.

01:09:11.320 How?

01:09:11.940 Just talking to me, mate.

01:09:13.020 Talking to Francis.

01:09:14.020 Just hang around with him.

01:09:14.860 Just talk to me, mate.

01:09:16.040 No, but, well, yeah, he'll do that in less than a week.

01:09:18.740 But don't get enough sleep.

01:09:21.080 Yeah.

01:09:21.440 Drink alcohol or take drugs.

01:09:23.960 Stay indoors.

01:09:25.080 Don't exercise.

01:09:26.100 Don't talk to anyone.

01:09:27.320 Don't speak to family and friends and whatever.

01:09:29.440 You do that for a week.

01:09:30.680 I don't get how great your brain is.

01:09:31.920 You're going to feel pretty depressed.

01:09:33.500 So I worked out how to feel better.

01:09:37.000 Like, the weather turned, like, a week ago.

01:09:39.580 And I was instantly like, whoa, I can feel...

01:09:42.040 So I was like, okay, well, I need to up my exercise.

01:09:44.320 I need to call my family.

01:09:45.560 I need to do this.

01:09:46.380 I need to do that.

01:09:46.920 I need to spend more time with my son and wife.

01:09:49.140 All of that.

01:09:50.180 That really is the answer, I think, for men. 0.72

01:09:52.320 Instead of like, oh, let's sit down and talk.

01:09:54.400 Men don't want to talk about our feelings. 0.73

01:09:55.940 It's just not how we're built.

01:09:57.300 We're not wired that way.

01:09:58.440 You're right.

01:09:59.140 But I think we're talking slightly different things, which is it's the permission to.

01:10:03.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:04.260 It's the permission.

01:10:05.340 You're exactly right.

01:10:06.500 I've had this neck operation.

01:10:08.040 I haven't been able to exercise for eight months.

01:10:09.640 It's completely messed with my...

01:10:11.520 Oh, yeah.

01:10:12.000 It's terrible.

01:10:12.560 I was running in and out of the office every day.

01:10:15.580 I was, you know, it was...

01:10:16.820 I was feeling good.

01:10:18.280 Yeah.

01:10:18.420 I gave up smoking.

01:10:19.440 And then I met a doctor who said to me, why are you vaping?

01:10:23.240 That's even worse than smoking.

01:10:24.720 Get smoking or give up everything.

01:10:26.560 Yeah.

01:10:26.760 And it's had a real profound effect.

01:10:29.400 I'm very much a doer person.

01:10:31.360 You know, I do and I get out and I do things and I'm busy.

01:10:33.780 And I think that's right.

01:10:34.920 You can't just sit and listen to people moan.

01:10:37.800 But I think if a man or a woman, I don't think it really should be about sex.

01:10:43.820 If someone is feeling desperate and sad, they tend to go quiet.

01:10:48.640 They tend not to go noisy.

01:10:50.800 Yeah.

01:10:51.020 And that's, you know, that's what I've noticed.

01:10:53.900 Yeah, absolutely.

01:10:55.140 Alan says, don't remember anyone suggesting the BBC getting axed when Brand and Ross made their shagged your granddaughter comments.

01:11:04.060 Well, it's...

01:11:04.540 But also, at the end of the day, that was very distasteful.

01:11:07.360 But it was sort of an attempt at humour.

01:11:10.080 Yeah.

01:11:10.380 In the same way as my I wouldn't shag that was an attempt at humour.

01:11:13.940 Yeah.

01:11:14.140 So we've also got to remember that the first thing, the sunlight to the woke vampire is laughter.

01:11:21.640 Yeah.

01:11:22.340 And, you know, we're going to...

01:11:25.060 I wrote it, my song, first four was laughter.

01:11:27.180 Yeah.

01:11:27.580 Just to quell the unoffended.

01:11:28.900 It was a beautiful song, by the way.

01:11:30.640 Sean T says, and, you know, we've talked about GB News quite a bit and this is a provocative question, but he's a serious question following this.

01:11:37.160 What is now the point of GB News?

01:11:39.600 A very good question.

01:11:40.640 I don't know because it's perception, isn't it?

01:11:43.380 Ultimately, the USP of GB News is free speech.

01:11:46.040 That's it.

01:11:46.520 Home of free speech.

01:11:47.400 That's what they said.

01:11:48.100 We're the home of free speech.

01:11:49.320 Now, whether they still maintain to be the home of free speech as regulated by Ofcom, you're not really the home of free speech if you're the home of free speech as regulated by Ofcom.

01:11:58.760 I don't know why GB News ever wants to be regulated anyway.

01:12:00.980 They have explained it to me several times, but I'm like, well...

01:12:03.040 I imagine you can't broadcast on TV without you.

01:12:05.020 Yeah, but they should have just gone online.

01:12:06.520 They should just be an online channel, which I think they're going to do.

01:12:09.320 I don't know what the future of GB News is.

01:12:11.280 I think the way that they've behaved, certainly over Dan and Calvin, is...

01:12:18.440 It's not Dan's fault if you've found something I say funny, is it?

01:12:22.620 Yeah, and he did actually say, you know, just to provide balance.

01:12:25.780 I mean, look, he probably should have pushed back a lot stronger.

01:12:28.260 Well, he was laughing.

01:12:29.220 That was the point.

01:12:30.040 But people make mistakes, too.

01:12:31.420 Yeah.

01:12:31.820 But that's it.

01:12:32.780 Everyone makes mistakes.

01:12:33.920 But the problem is, if you make mistakes on GB News, it's game over.

01:12:37.080 Well, like I said, I think sacking you is what they have to do.

01:12:42.140 I don't understand why they would sack Dan, and I haven't had a chance to look into the Calvin situation properly.

01:12:47.320 No, we'll see what happens.

01:12:49.800 Esther says, you can be forthright, Lawrence, without being coarse, i.e. Douglas Murray.

01:12:55.100 Yeah, she can.

01:12:56.160 You can.

01:12:56.860 Absolutely.

01:12:57.560 But fortunately, my name is Lawrence, and my surname is Fox, not Douglas.

01:13:01.820 I'm sorry, Murray.

01:13:02.660 Ralph89 says, would there be any possibility of Lawrence joining one of the existing alternative media networks?

01:13:12.560 Which are what?

01:13:13.880 Like Lotus Eaters, et cetera.

01:13:16.640 I'll speak to, I'm sure I'll speak to, but I'll probably just start one up.

01:13:21.440 I'll just turn around and go, you know, just go around, turn around and say, you know, let's use the money that we use for this for that.

01:13:30.080 You know, we'll see.

01:13:31.820 I've always said, from the day I started off doing the Reclaim Party, I said, I don't think the political party is the right answer, because I don't think there's a political solution to a cultural problem.

01:13:40.400 Therefore, you need a cultural solution to the problem.

01:13:42.880 I agree. 0.99

01:13:43.340 Which is to make, you know, even if it's as stupid as saying being a mum is cool, you know, make being a mum cool again. 0.98

01:13:50.280 Yeah. 0.98

01:13:50.500 Instead of teaching all of these poor little girls and young women who are coming out of school that the only way that they can ever be truly respected in life is by not having children and having more money than men. 0.95

01:14:00.160 It's like, well, really, you're going to really regret that decision at 38 when your fertility falls off the cliff.

01:14:06.940 I mean, it's very true.

01:14:08.060 It's very true.

01:14:08.640 MoMA says, apart from anything, were some GB News presenters naive to think it would be a paragon of free speech when they played in MSM territory, mainstream media territory, and put themselves under Ofcom?

01:14:20.160 Not that GB News can't be a better MSM.

01:14:22.260 Yeah, I think I'm very guilty of their, you know, they sent me their broadcasters charter and all that sort of stuff, and I'm just like, yeah, whatever, I get it.

01:14:32.000 Say what you think.

01:14:32.860 And then if someone, don't let someone, you know, allow someone to disagree.

01:14:37.320 That was my essential view of it.

01:14:38.800 So, you know, again, I think I'm guilty of podcast-itis where you just, you know, I just thought, you know, Ofcom is just sort of some bunch of censorship drones who I don't want to ever speak to or I don't think about when I'm at work.

01:14:55.860 Other people do it for me or not.

01:14:58.700 I've got another one.

01:14:59.760 Yeah, go for it.

01:15:00.280 Marco says, Mr. Fox, mistakes have been made.

01:15:02.900 You've owned up to them, and well done.

01:15:04.900 You do have great points in general and do good work.

01:15:07.960 Lead by example, and I wish you luck.

01:15:10.040 Thanks, Trick Gang, for the chance to chip in.

01:15:12.760 Cheers, Marco. 0.98

01:15:13.560 So, and Matt Shaw says, Adam Bolton is a fool whose career should have been ended when he appeared drunk on TV with Alistair Campbell and lost his rag. 0.98

01:15:21.620 And Campbell, of all people, told him, dignity, dignity, an utter gargoyle. 0.98

01:15:26.560 Well, that's Matt Shaw's opinion.

01:15:27.820 Yeah, there you go.

01:15:28.540 I haven't seen the Adam Bolton drunk on TV.

01:15:30.640 I've seen a couple.

01:15:31.320 Allegedly.

01:15:32.500 Allegedly drunk on TV.

01:15:33.540 I've seen a couple of really funny drunk on TVs, but my favourite drunk one is drunk referees in football.

01:15:40.860 Have you seen that?

01:15:41.500 No.

01:15:42.080 Oh, just type in drunk referees in football.

01:15:45.200 Best YouTube video you'll ever see in your life.

01:15:47.440 There you go.

01:15:47.980 Mike Croft says, just sending love to Lawrence, nothing else.

01:15:51.260 So that's good.

01:15:52.080 Thank you.

01:15:52.320 And Jason says, do you think the latest form of feminism basically advocates a structural change to make men subservient? 0.94

01:15:58.540 And subjugate it to women. 1.00

01:15:59.760 Yeah, it's authoritarian feminism. 1.00

01:16:01.640 Absolutely, 100%.

01:16:02.580 And it's so bad for both sexes.

01:16:05.500 Because, you know, there's a reason why all of these, I mean, God, I'm trying to think about some of the stuff I used to be taught at school.

01:16:12.540 And, you know, this stuff would be child abuse nowadays.

01:16:16.700 You know, you need good, strong men to lead and families.

01:16:20.620 And, you know, anyone who said that nowadays is an alt-right fascist anti-vaxxing conspiracy theorist.

01:16:25.480 It's why things like rugby and, you know, contact sports are actually so important, particularly for boys.

01:16:31.000 So that when you do get a punch in the head, you know, you get a shoulder in the ribs.

01:16:35.100 You realise it's not the end of the world.

01:16:36.680 It's just a bit of pain and you'll be able to run it off.

01:16:38.740 I know, but my little one was taught, you know, goes to one of those, you get free medals for coming last.

01:16:46.160 And I was told at one football match that I wasn't allowed to clap if they scored.

01:16:50.620 And then they indoctrinate the children with it.

01:16:54.220 So then he comes home and he's like, it doesn't matter about winning, Dad.

01:16:57.380 It's just about playing the game.

01:16:59.060 And I'm like, OK, do you want a game of FIFA?

01:17:01.300 He's like, yeah.

01:17:02.320 And I just, you know, usually I let him win.

01:17:05.020 And I just started beating him.

01:17:06.620 And he just got more and more and more and more angry.

01:17:08.920 And I said, do you know that feeling?

01:17:10.140 Hold on to that because that's competitiveness.

01:17:12.520 And then did you score another goal after that?

01:17:16.140 If you're going to destroy a child's confidence, you must do it totally and utterly.

01:17:20.260 Yeah, absolutely.

01:17:21.020 7-0 Mansfield Town versus Man United.

01:17:24.440 Julia says, Lauren, set up your own YouTube channel. 1.00

01:17:27.660 We need to hear your voice.

01:17:28.760 We need to hear your opinions too.

01:17:30.000 I'm a psychiatric nurse and you're bang on about male suicide.

01:17:33.580 Thank you for trying to help.

01:17:34.900 Julia.

01:17:35.520 Yeah, in my inbox, if you could read the inbox of my Twitter feed of messages from women 0.99

01:17:41.100 whose husbands or partners or children have killed themselves, you, that's why I got so 1.00

01:17:47.220 upset again at the beginning because I've been reading them all day.

01:17:49.520 Yeah.

01:17:50.100 I just, yeah.

01:17:52.420 Yeah.

01:17:52.920 Yeah.

01:17:53.340 And Jamie says, will this damage their reclaim party?

01:17:56.800 Um, I don't know.

01:17:59.020 Damage.

01:18:00.240 I mean, I mean, I don't know.

01:18:02.840 I think it's hard to argue that this won't, but, you know.

01:18:05.100 Yeah.

01:18:05.640 Not that I take any pleasure in that.

01:18:07.380 Yeah.

01:18:07.660 But, yeah.

01:18:08.100 I think that's it.

01:18:09.840 Lawrence, thank you for coming back.

01:18:11.600 Listen, before we should say this, right, before we leave, which is you're going through a

01:18:17.020 rough time.

01:18:18.260 We may not always agree with you, but you are a friend.

01:18:21.200 And please always call us when you're going through difficult stuff.

01:18:24.600 Whatever is going on, you should remember there's a lot of people who like you and love

01:18:28.940 you and support you.

01:18:29.760 Even when you make mistakes, as you did in this case, and all of that aside.

01:18:33.840 So please look after yourself, look after your family, and all the best to you.

01:18:38.000 And this is equally true of anybody else, including Ava.

01:18:42.020 We wish everybody the best, even if they're wrong, even if they say things that are wrong,

01:18:46.440 even if they're on the other side of politics or whatever.

01:18:48.720 We need more healthy discussion, and we need more healthy conversation.

01:18:52.100 So thank you for being here.

01:18:53.560 Thank you for coming on and talking to us.

01:18:55.540 I hope this has been productive for everybody, and you and us and everybody included.

01:18:59.700 Yeah.

01:19:00.200 My pleasure, guys.

01:19:00.680 Thank you.

01:19:01.160 I'm just off to destroy someone on Twitter, mate.

01:19:04.220 Take care, guys.

01:19:05.120 We'll see you later on.

01:19:05.920 Bye.

TRIGGERnometry - October 06, 2023

Laurence Fox：＂I'm Thinking Of Leaving The Country＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

TRIGGERnometry - October 06, 2023

Laurence Fox： ＂I'm Thinking Of Leaving The Country＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Laurence Fox：＂I'm Thinking Of Leaving The Country＂