TRIGGERnometry - June 17, 2020


Laurence Fox： ＂They Came After My Family＂


Episode Stats

Length

55 minutes

Words per Minute

192.9644

Word Count

10,627

Sentence Count

424

Misogynist Sentences

10

Hate Speech Sentences

32


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin.
00:00:09.280 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:00:14.720 Our brilliant and returning guest today is a singer-songwriter, actor and one of our
00:00:20.300 favorite human beings in the world, Lawrence Fox. Welcome back to Trigonometry.
00:00:23.780 Hi guys, thanks for having me back.
00:00:25.240 And I should explain, before we start, we are, of course, immediately in the post-lockdown situation.
00:00:31.220 We've all got crazy haircuts. France has lost weight, which was never going to happen otherwise.
00:00:35.660 It's true.
00:00:36.600 And the world's about to explode. How have you been?
00:00:39.360 Well, yeah, just in anticipation of the apocalypse, which seems to be heading our way soon.
00:00:45.620 And which you predicted the last time you were on the show. I mean, I say that with a smile. I don't know why.
00:00:50.840 It's because you're Russian, mate.
00:00:52.280 I know. We always do well in an apocalypse, don't we?
00:00:54.900 Yeah, we do. Well, I don't know why I said we do. And to quote Batman, some people just want to watch the world burn.
00:01:00.480 And that is, of course, the three of us. Not actually, because last time you were then being serious, you know, you said you see a fight coming and here it is.
00:01:09.460 Yeah, it's not good, is it? I feel like it was already possibly too late back then, in a way, because you could see that people lost their good faith and they didn't want to talk anymore.
00:01:20.700 And, you know, as you go into those arguments and people are just looking to to find the tiny disagreement that they can turn into a little hand grenade that they can then turn into from a skirmish into a war.
00:01:33.400 And, you know, I think we're probably we're getting there.
00:01:36.240 It feels very, very uneasy, doesn't it?
00:01:38.920 I don't I'm not I don't feel relaxed.
00:01:41.080 I mean, no one's going to feel relaxed because we're in the middle of a lockdown.
00:01:43.140 But the lockdown and the combination of the, you know, the tension, this building is.
00:01:47.720 and Lawrence you have been dare I say on a little bit of a journey I mean
00:01:53.640 euphemistically um how are you and how have you found it um I'm all right now it was pretty uh
00:02:04.540 surprising actually before but then I suppose on one level I was already poking the elephant wasn't
00:02:09.200 I well give us a bit of the chronology Lawrence because when we interviewed you I believe that
00:02:14.800 I think it's accurate to say that was the first long form interview that you'd done talking about the whole culture war stuff and your thoughts on it.
00:02:22.700 And from there you go, you do a bunch of other podcasts and eventually you end up on Question Time, which is where I think the journey, as Francis described it, really starts.
00:02:32.060 And we might even include a little clip of that at the top of this.
00:02:35.040 So just take us from there.
00:02:37.300 What happens?
00:02:38.380 so I go into the
00:02:40.620 I did Radio 5 Live
00:02:43.480 the day before with
00:02:44.560 the eternally moderate
00:02:47.100 Nihal
00:02:47.620 and Yasmin Alibi Brown
00:02:51.140 was on before me
00:02:51.960 she's always balanced
00:02:52.700 and you know
00:02:53.640 and I was
00:02:54.540 because I was singing as well
00:02:55.760 I was
00:02:56.160 I could hear her being interviewed
00:02:57.660 and I was just going
00:02:58.680 oh really
00:02:59.320 which is what I think
00:03:01.120 often when I stare at the TV
00:03:02.540 and
00:03:03.160 so I sort of vaguely mentioned it
00:03:05.280 in my interview with Nihal
00:03:07.040 and then the next day
00:03:08.060 and then i went to um liverpool on the train and got to question time and they they perhaps sort of
00:03:15.280 everyone's there with their sort of assistants and you know people with little briefcases and
00:03:20.760 lawyers things and following around their their contestants and briefing them and stuff like that
00:03:27.260 and then um i sort of took one look at the drinks table and thought no i won't do that because they
00:03:32.640 lay out a load of booze i think they probably want to kind of get people going yeah so you do a george
00:03:37.220 best basically do george best and uh or an oliver reed and um then yeah i mean i just i just said
00:03:44.980 what i thought which i would have said at a tv if i was staring at the tv watching it do you know
00:03:50.220 what i mean i would have said exactly the same thing and then you forget that millions of people
00:03:55.140 are watching it because you're just sort of responding how you'd respond and then i went
00:03:59.060 back to the hotel
00:04:00.240 and Shappi
00:04:02.680 wasn't massively keen on a chat
00:04:05.520 and a catch up post
00:04:06.920 question time moment
00:04:08.840 and then we were sitting there and I thought
00:04:10.660 it's all fine and then I went to my bedroom
00:04:12.800 You mean Shami Chakrabarti? Shami Chakrabarti
00:04:15.080 Okay well you're now racist because you mispronounced
00:04:17.140 one word or
00:04:18.220 one letter in her name
00:04:20.160 I always suspected it
00:04:21.980 now it's true
00:04:23.340 and yeah so she wasn't really up for a chat
00:04:26.120 and I went to my room and I took one brief look
00:04:28.280 at twitter and i thought why have i got 75 000 twitter followers and um then i woke up next
00:04:33.900 morning and i had like 100 and something else and it was all kind of fairly good natured at
00:04:38.300 the beginning i didn't feel too like i was being jumped on and then sometime the next afternoon
00:04:45.200 it started getting really quite nasty and i started going oh i might have to have an a have
00:04:51.260 an opinion about some stuff and then it slowly descended into sort of a a major pylon and a sort
00:05:00.180 of you know the bad faith pylons that twitter are famous for they just you know you want to be
00:05:05.120 people want to misrepresent you in the media or do it the same so i then got very shocked um so
00:05:11.240 then went to see my doctor because i was having massive panic attacks and she gave me some pills
00:05:14.920 which are great, by the way.
00:05:17.220 I've just come off them.
00:05:20.200 So, hang on.
00:05:22.780 And I thought, oh, it'll pass.
00:05:24.740 It'll blow over.
00:05:25.460 Give it a week.
00:05:26.760 And then it didn't.
00:05:28.420 And it carried on going, it carried on going,
00:05:30.040 and it culminated in equity, the Actors' Union,
00:05:33.360 which I'd missed, actually, by the by,
00:05:36.260 of them saying, you know, I'm a disgrace and denounce.
00:05:39.000 And I'd thought, well, you know,
00:05:41.060 that's what unions do, don't they,
00:05:42.900 when you used to watch the tube strikes and stuff,
00:05:45.200 you'd always have Bob Crow going, you know,
00:05:47.260 using really emotive language and you'd think, cool, whatever.
00:05:50.800 But then someone says to me, that's a big deal, actually,
00:05:54.200 because that's your actors' union.
00:05:56.520 You don't want that at the top of when someone Googles you.
00:05:58.740 Well, right, that would be the equivalent of Bob Crow
00:06:00.520 denouncing his own transport stuff or whatever union he was set of.
00:06:04.600 Lawrence Fox is the worst train driver we've got.
00:06:08.460 World's shittiest train driver award goes to Lawrence Fox.
00:06:11.980 I've always wanted to fight that prick, yeah.
00:06:15.380 Right.
00:06:17.440 So where was I?
00:06:18.700 Yeah, so then I was really shocked.
00:06:22.880 Lots of, you know, my family didn't know what to do, really.
00:06:27.460 It was really affecting my family.
00:06:29.020 People came after my family, came after my loved ones.
00:06:32.920 And I thought I have to do something practical.
00:06:35.800 Can I just touch on something?
00:06:37.020 What do you mean came after, Lawrence?
00:06:38.420 They attacked, you know, they attacked, they tried to draw divisions between my family members.
00:06:44.980 You know, people would, the media would comment on various parts of my, you know, relationships I was having within the family that they just weren't informed about.
00:06:52.200 So it's, and I then got some calls from my family saying, what are we going to do about this?
00:06:56.640 Because this is really upsetting for everybody.
00:07:00.780 And I'm like, yeah, no, I get it.
00:07:03.360 I'm right there.
00:07:04.300 And so it just got worse and worse and worse.
00:07:08.420 And I threatened to sue equity for defamation because I think at the end of the day, you know, what they said to me was was unfair.
00:07:17.240 I didn't think I was really I mean, I admit, you know, it's a fairly controversial thing to say that Meghan Markle as an actress may have an ego that may, you know, and want to be center of attention, which is sort of what I was saying.
00:07:29.840 I didn't really have any interest in the color of her skin or anyone else's skin, really, because I just it's not really I know it's really bad to say that, isn't it?
00:07:37.720 Yeah, it's horrific.
00:07:38.760 I mean, the thing I actually said at the time is,
00:07:41.720 and this is purely a reflection of my ignorance about Meghan Markle.
00:07:44.960 I don't watch that many movies with her in them.
00:07:48.500 I didn't realize that she was quote-unquote black.
00:07:52.260 Like, people with her skin tone.
00:07:53.540 Is she black?
00:07:54.240 Well, apparently.
00:07:55.760 Oh, okay.
00:07:56.300 I still don't know that.
00:07:57.680 Right.
00:07:58.060 I just want to say I'm a massive fan of you, Meghan.
00:08:00.900 Francis is a massive fan.
00:08:02.700 Any woman of color, really.
00:08:05.020 I'm very liberal.
00:08:06.200 Anyway, let's carry on.
00:08:06.980 Very progressive, especially down below the waist.
00:08:13.140 But this is the point is, like, I didn't know that she was black.
00:08:17.700 I don't think people did, did they?
00:08:19.000 I think there have been rumblings in the press of the fact that she was being treated different.
00:08:25.060 But, I mean, I didn't really read the press.
00:08:26.680 So the last time I'd seen Meghan Markle was at her wedding.
00:08:29.880 And that looked like a pretty nice shindig to me.
00:08:32.700 and it looked like
00:08:35.020 you know they were
00:08:35.680 interviewing people outside
00:08:36.800 and we all watched it
00:08:37.920 as a family
00:08:38.340 and it was like
00:08:38.780 royal wedding time
00:08:39.400 we love it
00:08:39.800 and everyone was like
00:08:40.420 this is brilliant
00:08:40.900 she's great
00:08:41.580 I'd not read anything
00:08:44.200 negative about her
00:08:45.080 so I was like
00:08:45.640 come on guys
00:08:46.220 this is not about racism
00:08:47.740 this is about
00:08:48.520 an actress
00:08:49.680 who has not
00:08:50.660 properly thought through
00:08:52.080 what giving your life
00:08:53.860 in service to the crown
00:08:54.840 is all about
00:08:55.440 well that's part of it
00:08:56.160 I think the other part of it
00:08:57.120 is what happened
00:08:57.660 is she started
00:08:58.900 and then encouraged Harry
00:09:00.220 to start lecturing the public
00:09:01.480 about how they should behave.
00:09:03.480 And you made that point on Question Time about actors,
00:09:05.820 you know, actors who preach about, you know,
00:09:08.400 at the time it was Extinction Rebellion,
00:09:10.220 that was the big thing,
00:09:11.280 and then hop in their private jet
00:09:12.800 and go to the Bahamas for a three-week beach holiday, right?
00:09:16.380 And that's kind of what the royals,
00:09:19.380 those two royals were doing.
00:09:20.700 And I think a lot of the public,
00:09:22.280 and as reflected in some of the press,
00:09:24.280 were pissed off about that.
00:09:25.300 And as you said, that's not really about race, is it?
00:09:27.920 No, I don't think it is.
00:09:29.220 People don't like being lectured to anyway.
00:09:31.480 delay and also that when you're finding things to divide people it's it stops conversations so
00:09:38.320 you know if you subjectivize something like race which you've got to do because you've got if
00:09:44.000 someone says you the only lived experience you have in life is your own that's it there is no
00:09:48.300 other lived experience but your own and you know you can sort of see into the windows of other
00:09:53.180 people's that you know really well but um so you one wasn't denying uh subjective feelings of
00:10:00.920 racism, but this sort of overwhelming
00:10:03.340 we are the really
00:10:04.780 racist. And I'm like, well, you know,
00:10:06.780 if we're so racist, then why are people
00:10:08.660 crossing the Mediterranean on
00:10:10.820 rubber dinghies to get to these horrible
00:10:12.960 bigoted shores of ours?
00:10:14.620 I mean, Francis and I both have met real racists,
00:10:16.980 so it's not like they don't exist.
00:10:18.460 I work with one, mate.
00:10:21.040 I know here.
00:10:22.960 I don't know why I'm here.
00:10:24.540 Are you foreigners?
00:10:25.900 So now you know you've met some real racists
00:10:29.220 as well.
00:10:29.600 so i mean they do exist the question is is one stupid racist reflect reflective of society that's
00:10:38.000 that's really the question that you were addressing yeah and that and it's um it becomes
00:10:42.760 an agenda then slightly it feels to me so if you're going to talk about systemic racism then
00:10:47.300 at some point i'm going to need some facts that's i'm just going to need it because i can't take
00:10:53.540 your word for it if that's not my lived experience now i'm you know i qualify that by saying i don't
00:10:57.700 I haven't had the lived experience of, you know, I was speaking to a friend the other day.
00:11:01.400 He said, you've not been called a packie and been told to go home.
00:11:04.200 I mean, the Home Secretary said it on TV.
00:11:06.360 But apparently, I read yesterday that that's gaslighting other ethnic minorities.
00:11:09.700 And you're like, if the Home Secretary, who's brown, has a view and says, I was called a packie in the schoolyard,
00:11:18.260 and then you're going, she's now the Home Secretary,
00:11:20.160 That would point towards the fact that possibly this country is quite progressive in terms of how we handle race.
00:11:29.120 So essentially race is now an opinion rather than a colour of your skin, it seems to me.
00:11:36.080 Because when you were talking about it, did you feel that you sort of stumbled into a landmine issue or onto a landmine issue without being fully aware of what would happen?
00:11:47.140 Yeah, no, I had no idea.
00:11:48.360 Yeah. I thought it was a fairly sensible comment. I mean, I didn't look at it for a long time. And then I looked at it much later on and I thought, yeah, no, I do believe that. I stand by that. There's nothing. I mean, I maybe shouldn't have banged my head on the desk because that was just slightly disrespectful. But it was frustrating. And you're being walked into an argument that the minute you accept the argument exists, you've lost the argument because I didn't accept the terms of the argument that she was laying down.
00:12:14.100 So, therefore, it wasn't really an argument.
00:12:16.780 It was a lecture, and, you know, nothing bristles
00:12:20.040 some of them being lectured to.
00:12:21.840 We don't want a lecture to each other.
00:12:23.060 We don't want to talk to each other.
00:12:24.400 Absolutely, and then there was, obviously, the Sikh comment,
00:12:27.300 which is where...
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00:12:44.100 it actually really really went to the next level and it all became very very vitriolic would you
00:12:52.320 like to tell us about what happened there well the seek comment was um in a in a podcast and you
00:12:57.860 know also listen the thing about podcasts is that their opportunities because they're long-form
00:13:02.340 discussions they're opportunities to talk you don't turn up with the finished article of your
00:13:06.120 ideas do you don't turn up and go right uh this is my position on x y and z you talk to learn to
00:13:12.280 understand to gain more insight and knowledge so I did think when I saw 1917 I thought it felt
00:13:20.800 slightly tokenistic that there was just one Sikh soldier I thought you could have a platoon in the
00:13:26.140 back of that truck and you know and so it's a fairly innocuous statement I mean helpful
00:13:31.080 possibly not was Sam Mendes trying to do something really good and to point out yeah absolutely but
00:13:37.540 again it was a bad faith argument it's like you know what i meant you know and but this is what
00:13:43.280 i said to you at the time man is like i knew exactly what you meant and the funny thing about
00:13:49.220 that is obviously people won't know this but you were the one that recommended i watch 1917 before
00:13:54.420 that you actually gave me a dvd of it to watch and you said this is a great movie yeah it is go go
00:14:00.200 watch it and i did uh but the with the thing with that comment was i think everybody knew exactly
00:14:06.600 what you meant uh including many Sikhs who came out and supported you but but you can't give an
00:14:12.820 inch to these people if you allow them even any opportunity to misinterpret something you say
00:14:17.960 they will go for you i think that's right and that's fine because people are in charge of
00:14:23.100 themselves know their own agency and that's cool where it stops being fine is the media so um i
00:14:30.280 remember david walliams then um charming dude that he is with possibly no dark past
00:14:36.440 standing on um standing on the stage at the national television awards talking about how
00:14:45.440 empty my diary was and he was slightly hissed in a way he was food it wasn't appreciated and then
00:14:50.960 he went on to make a joke about caroline flack straight after and then caroline flack he's in
00:14:56.760 a slightly different position to me emotionally for whatever reason we're two separate individuals
00:15:00.540 went on to take her own life and i would say that that that the the media and herself and all of
00:15:08.480 everything but are culpable in some aspect of that and including david welliams and david
00:15:13.600 welliams's approach was just to turn off twitter for seven days and then get back to posting
00:15:17.640 pictures of his dog so yeah i think that it's important that we we are we're able to just
00:15:27.380 freely express ourselves in good faith and and that seek comment was you know people knew people
00:15:33.600 knew what i was saying but you know i had to go on this i went on good morning britain i think
00:15:37.420 ultimately what i really should have done was just shut all the doors to everything and and hunker
00:15:42.640 down but because of this thing about the fact that they won't let you go they're like dogs
00:15:47.800 wild dogs coming after you you have to fight back you do which i did fight back for a while but then
00:15:54.760 i looked at the seat comment and i thought you know what that i could i could misinterpret that
00:16:00.160 and in order to reduce flames and energy and heat and anger because that's what you want to do in
00:16:04.800 life that's what i want to do in life uh while still maintaining the right to freedom of speech
00:16:09.840 I thought I will just say, look, I think everyone who died in war
00:16:13.660 and everyone who served in war is a really bad thing.
00:16:15.660 And, you know, it just re-energizes them to come.
00:16:18.300 So you can't really, once you've been tarred and feathered,
00:16:21.820 all you're doing is getting more tar and more feathers
00:16:24.160 every time you open your mouth.
00:16:25.460 So, you know, like, that's why Trump is so successful,
00:16:29.580 because he just doesn't care.
00:16:31.520 It's like the man is Teflon, isn't he?
00:16:33.640 You say anything to him, and he's just like, he doesn't care,
00:16:37.020 to the point of comedy almost.
00:16:38.700 And Lawrence, I was going to ask as well, with social media, do you think that what social media does is it makes it very, very easy to demonise someone?
00:16:49.900 Because sitting opposite from you, I get the fully rounded human being.
00:16:53.420 But on Twitter, you just get the avatar with a little picture.
00:16:56.680 Therefore, it makes it so much easier to create in my mind who you are.
00:17:00.580 Absolutely.
00:17:01.780 Twitter is a horrible place.
00:17:04.880 You know, I turn it off once in a while.
00:17:06.180 I certainly turned it off.
00:17:07.620 i had to turn it off at one point because i was going geez i'm never going to get another job
00:17:12.020 and um you know but it still happens the problem is once you stifle a really little debate like
00:17:20.540 about nuance if you take something nuanced and someone takes a very strong position on a very
00:17:26.000 nuanced issue then when you get to the big issues you're fucked because you know and so it's it's in
00:17:32.200 bad faith this thing and i know i keep saying it but i'm done with that conversation so it and
00:17:38.360 that's really sad and that's why we're heading towards where we're heading probably this well
00:17:42.340 last weekend depending you know is that people are just putting down words and they're picking up
00:17:47.620 aggression and anger and violence and you know and where's that going to lead us and the point
00:17:53.300 you made about the media i think is very powerful right now but actually you reminded me when you
00:17:57.880 talked about the david williams joke that joke land as comedians we can you you know when a joke
00:18:03.420 works or not that joke died yeah well it died on its ass but here's my point i i only found out
00:18:10.320 about what happened and read about it and watched it because i saw a newspaper article which said
00:18:15.700 david williams brilliantly destroys laura or something along those lines they they just lied
00:18:21.940 they just fucking lied they took something that happened and they misrepresented it as the
00:18:26.360 opposite yeah how's how does that how does that happen david welliams largely succeeds
00:18:32.000 david welliams is largely peaceful character assassination of laurence fox um you know it's
00:18:39.140 really bad i'm all right because i i have a really good support network but you do have to think
00:18:43.800 about the people that aren't all right and you do have to think about that you know what a likelihood
00:18:48.500 of people appearing in reality tv shows ending up with severe mental health problems you know
00:18:53.560 and how much of this is Twitter's responsibility.
00:18:57.080 And, you know, someone said to me recently,
00:18:59.100 they said, I was like, I've just got to get off Twitter.
00:19:01.820 I can't cope with it.
00:19:02.900 And they said the best minds in, you know,
00:19:06.020 in the Silicon Valley are working on ways
00:19:09.240 of keeping you on Twitter.
00:19:10.580 The smartest, cleverest people are trying to keep you on there.
00:19:14.380 And you go, yeah, this is bad.
00:19:17.540 This is really, really painful.
00:19:19.400 So I think the only constant I can find in the whole thing,
00:19:22.180 and it's not all the media,
00:19:23.560 either it's the it's the outrage media that have just gone they've got dealt their hand and their
00:19:28.440 hand is like the 10 of truth the jack of honesty and the six of um whatever and and they just throw
00:19:35.800 it down and they go right what do i want to do here and i suppose they've always done it but
00:19:39.760 it's probably got more power now it's got more reach you've got more shares everything i say
00:19:44.380 for example is digitally permanently there it isn't like people use saying all those it isn't
00:19:48.740 yesterday's tomorrow's chip paper even it's there for you to see but i mean i would rather
00:19:54.440 speak a lot and get a few things wrong than not speak at all ever
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00:21:29.140 Unlike me, I've just spoken a load of words.
00:21:31.440 I've got no idea what any of this means.
00:21:36.180 And I remember on our first interview
00:21:38.600 when you started saying, you know, your opinions,
00:21:41.680 some of which I really agreed with in my head
00:21:44.200 because I know a little bit about acting.
00:21:45.460 I've got friends who are actors.
00:21:46.440 I'm thinking, he's fucking nuts.
00:21:49.260 You can't say that and expect
00:21:51.140 because acting, as we all know,
00:21:52.980 is the most liberal and inverted commas industry there is.
00:21:56.360 And by that, I mean it's famously illiberal
00:21:58.040 if you disagree with any of what they say or think.
00:22:01.320 Have you found that your bookings have gone down?
00:22:03.800 Have they been reduced and all the rest of it?
00:22:05.680 Well, we hit the lockdown, didn't we?
00:22:06.900 But I did get my favourite ever text message
00:22:09.380 saying something along the lines of acting.
00:22:13.060 What are you doing?
00:22:14.060 Acting is the most liberal, compassionate business
00:22:16.600 in the fucking world.
00:22:17.720 You'll never work again.
00:22:19.720 And I'm like, I mean,
00:22:21.840 how do I deal with this as a text message?
00:22:25.180 I think that there are,
00:22:26.320 what's so interesting about acting
00:22:27.740 that I've noticed now, because I've started to look at it,
00:22:30.000 is I don't look at the ones that do the, I'm responsible.
00:22:34.120 I don't look at those ones.
00:22:35.800 I look for who's not in those videos.
00:22:38.300 And I've started to see, and you start to notice
00:22:40.440 who's not in those videos.
00:22:41.420 And then you start to look what sort of parts they play
00:22:44.120 and stuff like that.
00:22:45.640 And you start to go, oh, okay, so there is something going on.
00:22:49.040 There is a culture also within show business.
00:22:52.240 But, you know, we are, I think, a lot of films now,
00:22:54.520 often with your leading males especially,
00:22:58.100 They're much less sort of, I don't know, testosterone-y
00:23:01.720 than they would have been back in the day.
00:23:03.560 They're much more available and vulnerable
00:23:05.900 than your classic leading man would have been.
00:23:09.860 And hence, you know, the films have a slightly different quality to them.
00:23:14.520 You know, there's less shoot-outs.
00:23:16.840 You tend to get one or two films a year
00:23:18.960 where you'll get a lot of proper, meted-out,
00:23:21.940 kind of Western-style violence or whatever,
00:23:24.640 And then the rest will be sort of complex dramas that, you know, it's like watching your best friends.
00:23:31.220 So it's like, I don't, I want to be transported when I watch films.
00:23:34.260 So I've started watching older films again now.
00:23:36.720 I mean, older films for me, like, you know, Good Will Hunting or something like that,
00:23:40.260 that are, they're not all so problematic.
00:23:43.820 I mean, I watched Mrs. Doubtfire the other day and I was triggered.
00:23:46.480 Oh, man.
00:23:47.440 Mate, you watch anything from like 10 years ago and you're going, what, they made this?
00:23:51.820 What?
00:23:52.500 And it's like 10 years ago.
00:23:53.640 But, you know, as you were talking there, it reminded me of something because I talked a lot to my grandparents and parents about life in the Soviet Union.
00:24:05.900 And the stuff you're talking about where you have to look for who's not signing up to a cause is exactly what we had.
00:24:13.380 Like I get messages now from people going, oh, you know, by the way, this other comedian, he's one of us.
00:24:18.740 And I'm going, what do you mean one of us?
00:24:21.260 Like, why do we have to speak in hushed tones and private messages about us?
00:24:26.480 Like, there's something seriously fucked up here.
00:24:29.880 If people like us have to, you know, gather in private and, you know, keep our voices down, which is what's happening.
00:24:37.760 But what's so good is now we're living in the world where people have the most information they've ever had.
00:24:42.360 So that's a good thing when people use it well, and it's a really bad thing when people use it badly.
00:24:46.560 But ultimately, you know, if it all goes wrong, we can just go and live in chairs.
00:24:51.260 I want a passport.
00:24:53.780 I love the fact that they've given it the name
00:24:56.160 of a really posh woman from Clapham.
00:24:59.740 Chaz, darling.
00:25:00.780 Chaz.
00:25:01.580 And next door they'll have Dave.
00:25:05.040 I'm not sure we're going to get visas for that, mate.
00:25:07.040 Do you not think we're welcome in?
00:25:08.820 No, we might have the wrong skin colour, mate.
00:25:11.820 Are we not the...
00:25:14.380 We're just different sides of the same coin.
00:25:17.200 This is the whole point, isn't it?
00:25:18.440 But you've got, throughout history, there's been sort of crazy doomsday cultist lunatics.
00:25:23.540 And they have to be countered with, you know, fairly rational, reasoned, sensible thought.
00:25:30.220 But it's exploding now because I think people forget as well.
00:25:33.240 A friend of mine said to me the other day, he went, I didn't realize how thick some younger students were.
00:25:39.920 Because he said they just didn't, they've not been taught this stuff.
00:25:42.800 So I was taught at school about the Soviet Union
00:25:46.380 and I was taught about Nazi Germany
00:25:48.400 and we studied it in crystal metal and all this stuff,
00:25:50.740 not to some great standard.
00:25:52.380 I'm not the smartest man in the world.
00:25:53.820 But I know about it and I know the motives behind it
00:25:56.180 and you can see the trajectory of how these things play out.
00:25:58.660 I don't think these guys get taught it.
00:26:00.880 I think they're far too busy being taught
00:26:02.480 to fail his first attempt at learning or something.
00:26:06.160 You know, it's sort of, there's a sort of, I don't know,
00:26:09.800 it lacks weight.
00:26:12.380 None of the arguments have any weight.
00:26:14.720 So I'm yet to meet someone.
00:26:15.960 I mean, what's that dude on David Pakman?
00:26:19.060 He's got some fairly decent left-wing arguments.
00:26:22.700 And, you know, my mate Paul has got some good left-wing arguments.
00:26:25.620 And I appreciate those.
00:26:27.120 But, you know, the screechy, screechy, fuck you, fuck you stuff is like,
00:26:31.140 well, where do I go with that, mate?
00:26:33.040 You know, you scream at me all you want at the end of the day.
00:26:35.660 Where does it end?
00:26:37.980 Either I turn you off or, you know, I can turn you off.
00:26:40.980 You see, I just do nowadays.
00:26:42.100 I don't block them
00:26:42.780 I just mute them
00:26:43.500 and I just have this
00:26:44.660 wake up
00:26:45.200 and with a warm feeling
00:26:46.160 of someone going
00:26:46.740 fuck you
00:26:47.260 fuck you
00:26:47.800 fuck you
00:26:48.320 into the ether
00:26:49.440 for forever
00:26:51.180 and how do we get out
00:26:52.500 of this situation
00:26:53.280 because it just feels
00:26:54.620 and I don't think
00:26:55.780 it's unfair in saying this
00:26:56.700 in that it just feels
00:26:57.440 like it's getting worse
00:26:58.380 all the time
00:26:59.500 how do we get out
00:27:00.240 I don't think we're
00:27:00.980 I don't think we are
00:27:01.740 going to get out
00:27:02.200 thanks mate
00:27:02.900 I'm sorry
00:27:03.500 I just
00:27:03.900 I've got a feeling
00:27:04.720 that there's a cycle
00:27:05.740 of life
00:27:06.300 and after a long
00:27:07.760 period of peace
00:27:08.540 people want to
00:27:09.140 fight
00:27:10.240 and it feels
00:27:11.720 so aggressive and so it doesn't feel like there is a conversation to be had and it also feels like
00:27:16.760 people are taking sides as well like you know corporations are taking sides individuals are
00:27:22.140 taking sides there and they're sort of weighing up who's going to win and go um i'll be on that
00:27:26.560 side and ultimately you know it does it feels like those with those that are willing to uh fight in
00:27:32.440 the cruelest and nastiest way are probably going to win but ultimately the best reaction the best
00:27:39.200 generals in response are the ones that are much more cold and much more measured you know and
00:27:43.040 they just go this is how I will defeat you in the long run but I've got a feeling it will get bad
00:27:48.780 I don't feel it's it doesn't seem like it's getting any less bad does it you know it's I feel
00:27:55.420 very depressed about it and I feel sad for my kids you know and you know I just said I said the other
00:28:01.240 day about this taking the knee thing I was like I totally stand by anyone's right and desire to
00:28:06.960 take the knee i'm just not going to do it because and i was walking around the park with that dude
00:28:11.880 amru because he started slagging me off on twitter and he lives in near where i live and i was like
00:28:17.240 why don't we just get together for a chat and he is a left-wing trans person yeah yeah yeah he he's
00:28:25.460 got a lot of intersections going on and uh he was slagging me off and i was like hi man nice to meet
00:28:31.920 you and i think that disarms people sometimes and i said um listen don't you don't need to hate me
00:28:38.820 we can talk why don't we go for a walk you've got a dog i've got a dog so we go for a walk he
00:28:43.340 explains to me that um you know why taking a knee is a good idea and i said to him okay i take that
00:28:49.600 on board but you have to understand that in our sort of all the way up from sort of feudal culture
00:28:55.360 through the middle the middle ages up to today where you're taking a knee to get knighted by
00:28:59.700 the Queen as part it's ingrained in every sort of person in English culture that taking a knee has
00:29:06.480 totally different significance than it does to where what it does for you know people in America
00:29:11.040 perhaps or people somewhere else so there is an argument there for someone to defend the right to
00:29:15.740 say well I see it as an act of subservience rather than an act of solidarity it's it's that's okay
00:29:22.060 in my view anyway Amri then says to me um so good to talk to you this is in public he's going so
00:29:28.920 good to talk to you i recommend you read this book so i go great i'll get that book and i'll
00:29:34.920 read it uh i recommend you read douglas murray the madness of crowds and he went no i'm not going to
00:29:42.140 read that transphobe stuff and i mean read douglas murray and uh there's nothing transphobic about
00:29:48.340 man at all in fact the his chapter on trans issues in the in the madness crowds is so sensitively
00:29:55.780 handled that i thought wow that's incredibly withheld for you know someone who can be quite
00:30:02.620 pointed like douglas and and and i just thought that's there we have it the difference between
00:30:07.940 you and me amru is i'll read your book but you won't read mine and therefore you know when it
00:30:14.280 comes to a fight which no one wants you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back
00:30:19.260 if you come from a place of reason because they don't care what the rules are i think it's quite
00:30:24.180 deliberate, I think it's the way that the ideology is designed. It's designed in such a way that it's
00:30:30.880 closed off to external information. Because if you argue, as they do, that words are violence,
00:30:37.200 that by saying that you don't think that, you know, if you just say that you're a woman right
00:30:42.980 now, like that, you've become a woman, for example, right? That is erasing the identity of somebody,
00:30:49.540 or that is violence against them.
00:30:51.440 And if that's the case, well, if I thought that reading a book
00:30:54.600 is the equivalent of punching me in the face,
00:30:56.380 maybe I wouldn't want to read that book either.
00:30:58.220 So if you think in that way, it all internally within that system makes sense,
00:31:03.580 and that's how the system is designed.
00:31:05.060 It's designed to prevent new information from coming in.
00:31:08.500 Yeah, well, it's a religion.
00:31:12.480 It's an impenetrable, very dangerous religion,
00:31:16.700 and they keep coming up with these.
00:31:19.740 The problem is they can't live up to their own edicts.
00:31:23.440 So essentially the only way they can forgive
00:31:26.080 is by forgiving their own kind.
00:31:28.280 So you'll have Trudeau taking a knee
00:31:30.380 and at no point will anyone point out
00:31:33.300 the enormous hypocrisy of the fact
00:31:34.600 that he had to build his own penis out of whatever
00:31:39.240 in socks when he blacked himself up for stuff.
00:31:43.820 And you're like, that takes effort.
00:31:44.560 Wait, did he do that?
00:31:45.420 You blacked your own knees up in your ripped jeans.
00:31:48.280 Like, you really went to town on this look, Trudeau, you know.
00:31:51.700 And I just think it makes sense, and therefore it's very difficult to live in a world.
00:31:59.460 So in my sense of, oh, woe is me, Lawrence, I'm like, how can these people constantly
00:32:05.840 come up with new edicts that they break day after day after day, throw themselves endlessly
00:32:11.200 into these problems
00:32:12.720 and constantly forgive each other
00:32:14.280 but everyone else is a heretic.
00:32:16.260 What's the way out of that?
00:32:17.940 Because the rational and sensible people
00:32:20.320 in this world
00:32:20.760 are not going to put up with that.
00:32:23.480 And, you know,
00:32:23.920 they were saying 70% of Democrats in America
00:32:25.820 were in support of the National Guard
00:32:27.960 going on to the...
00:32:28.640 70% of Americans, sorry,
00:32:30.200 not the Democrats,
00:32:31.320 were in support of putting
00:32:32.500 the National Guard on the streets
00:32:33.740 during the riots.
00:32:34.580 And, I mean,
00:32:35.020 I couldn't get 70% of people
00:32:36.960 to agree on anything.
00:32:38.520 So there is a groundswell
00:32:40.280 against these guys, and then, you know,
00:32:42.520 you worry about where that groundswell manifests itself.
00:32:46.180 And, you know, you go and try and pull down the wrong statue
00:32:48.920 with a few people that are fiercely patriotic in, you know,
00:32:53.400 in the sense that they are patriotic,
00:32:55.300 and you're going to have a big rumble.
00:32:57.700 And who wants that?
00:32:58.620 And why are the police not stopping that?
00:33:01.480 And why are we not, you know, why is that?
00:33:03.760 It shouldn't be happening.
00:33:04.940 It offends people.
00:33:06.200 You don't want to, don't offend people.
00:33:08.520 Francis, before you jump in, just very quickly,
00:33:10.540 I should say we're recording this on a Friday before a weekend.
00:33:14.900 Who the fuck knows what's going to happen, man?
00:33:16.740 Anyway, go for it.
00:33:17.800 But I think the problem is,
00:33:22.460 I think it comes to both sides, isn't it?
00:33:24.500 In that they're unaware at times of their own,
00:33:28.400 of what will be the long-term consequences of these actions.
00:33:31.400 So they pulled down the Edward Coulson statue now.
00:33:34.060 There's perhaps a very strong argument
00:33:35.500 that we shouldn't have a statue of somebody
00:33:37.580 who made a large amount of money from slavery.
00:33:40.620 However, by taking down the statue,
00:33:42.520 that then creates a ripple effect
00:33:43.940 where we look at all other statues and go,
00:33:46.240 well, should we take this down?
00:33:47.260 Should we take that down?
00:33:48.320 Should we take down Cromwell's statue
00:33:49.780 after the atrocities in Ireland?
00:33:51.860 And then what you start to have
00:33:53.400 is erasing people's history,
00:33:55.820 which will then really rankle with the other side.
00:33:59.420 But people don't seem to want to acknowledge that.
00:34:02.600 It's crazy, especially over the statue thing,
00:34:04.580 because also as much as there's an argument for removing it,
00:34:07.380 It's an argument for leaving it in place, right?
00:34:09.100 So it's whatever happens.
00:34:10.720 The argument for leaving it in place is, you know,
00:34:13.260 you take your children to the statue and they go, who's that?
00:34:16.100 And you go, this guy was a famous slave trader.
00:34:18.580 And they're like, what's slavery?
00:34:19.660 And you tell them.
00:34:21.160 So there's a great, there's a solid argument for that.
00:34:23.740 But there's also a solid argument for removing it.
00:34:25.960 But whatever the argument is, it needs to be a democratic process.
00:34:29.640 Because once the mob take over, it's like, hang on a minute.
00:34:33.280 You know, that's not how we do these things.
00:34:36.340 I mean, I don't know the history of the statue,
00:34:38.500 so I think they had been lobbying the council to have it removed and whatever.
00:34:42.440 They had a vote on it, and it was 54% of people didn't want it removed.
00:34:46.400 Well, there you go.
00:34:47.460 And maybe, look, if they had a vote now, I'm sure it would be removed.
00:34:50.920 And your point about the democratic process is absolutely right.
00:34:53.900 It's interesting that you mentioned that there's an argument for keeping these things up,
00:34:57.460 maybe with a plaque that explains who this person was, what they did, etc.
00:35:01.140 Because I went to school, and in my school, one of the alumni was Douglas Haig, who was the commander of the British Armed Forces in World War I, responsible for the over-the-top tactics, etc., which largely acknowledged as being terrible, having led to the deaths of thousands of young British men for no purpose whatsoever.
00:35:23.760 And we were taught about this at school.
00:35:25.720 We would walk past a statue every single day
00:35:28.120 and then we'd go to a history class
00:35:29.780 where they would tell us,
00:35:30.840 this is what this guy did.
00:35:32.060 He was a fuck-up, right?
00:35:33.420 And we'd learn about it.
00:35:34.820 What do you want to arm children with?
00:35:38.060 Knowledge.
00:35:39.260 That's what you want to arm them with.
00:35:40.560 You don't want to arm them with opinions.
00:35:42.880 You know, your kids are going to pick up
00:35:44.460 your own opinions anyway, aren't they?
00:35:45.660 And they're going to pick up the opinions
00:35:46.700 of the people that teach them
00:35:48.200 and all that sort of stuff.
00:35:49.020 But you arm them with knowledge
00:35:50.100 and you give them the tools to understand.
00:35:52.020 and i've i've got a horrible feeling that it's been this has been going on for years this
00:35:58.180 deliberate indoctrination and removal of any form of ability to think for yourself critically think
00:36:04.760 and you're just sat there you know i have lots of conversations with people where they're like
00:36:08.400 they'll just spew things that aren't true at me and i'll have to go okay but this is the thing
00:36:14.540 this is the truth it's like having an argument with someone who's screaming in your face and
00:36:18.500 you video it on your phone and you then you show it back to them and they went i wasn't angry with
00:36:22.380 you and you're like okay where i don't even know where we begin so yeah educate educate educate
00:36:29.940 kids are curious creatures i care mainly i the reason why i actually say this stuff is because
00:36:35.060 i have children i don't really care so much for myself but i'm looking at this going god if it's
00:36:39.880 this bad now what's it going to look like when they're young adults i don't want them getting
00:36:44.280 into a scrap so sort of vainly and stupidly i thought well maybe it's worth lobbing my five
00:36:50.040 eggs into this conversation but um oh boy have they tried to make me pay for it it's been painful
00:36:56.700 and lawrence do you regret getting involved in this conversation no no truth is the truth man
00:37:02.880 you gotta stick to the truth truth is what what matters truth information allowing people to work
00:37:07.380 out what to think argue the shit out of it fight with each other disagree don't fight physically
00:37:12.780 but really allow it to happen, allow these conversations to happen.
00:37:17.140 If they don't happen, other things happen, and that's what happens.
00:37:20.740 Profound shite of the day.
00:37:22.240 It's not shite at all because this is why we started the show.
00:37:26.260 We started the show two years ago on a much smaller scale,
00:37:29.140 but we've gone through exactly the same thing with our careers.
00:37:34.400 But I've got to be honest with you, and I've said this to people in private,
00:37:38.660 but I'll say it to you now, I think we're failing.
00:37:41.260 I don't think we're succeeding.
00:37:44.280 What do you mean?
00:37:45.360 I mean that the way the world is going,
00:37:47.140 I don't think us talking about it is going to stop it.
00:37:50.800 So what's your alternative?
00:37:52.120 I don't know.
00:37:53.760 That's a Russian in you coming out again, mate.
00:37:56.160 I'm going to write a three-and-a-half-hour play about it
00:37:59.360 where the protagonist shoots himself at the end.
00:38:02.660 And we'll call it a comedy.
00:38:04.240 Yeah, exactly.
00:38:05.540 That's a Chekhov joke for anybody.
00:38:07.040 Anyway.
00:38:07.580 Well done, mate.
00:38:08.780 That's the first time Francis has elevated himself
00:38:10.880 above the level of wank jokes in about three months.
00:38:15.240 We'll be back to wank jokes, guys.
00:38:16.960 Don't worry about it.
00:38:17.780 I know my core audience.
00:38:21.460 So what...
00:38:22.640 I don't know, man.
00:38:23.540 I want to have an answer.
00:38:24.920 I want to go, this is what we do,
00:38:26.080 and then this is what we do,
00:38:26.840 and then this is what we do.
00:38:27.600 But all I can see now as I look into the future is
00:38:30.900 how do you stop the violence in the short term?
00:38:33.140 Okay, well, you prevent the protesters
00:38:35.020 from different sides from getting together.
00:38:36.620 That's what you do, right?
00:38:38.180 What do you do after that?
00:38:39.560 What's the next step?
00:38:40.880 It's that one up there, I'm afraid.
00:38:42.460 It's the only answer.
00:38:43.140 Whether you believe in it or not, it's the only answer.
00:38:45.500 Because what are we going to come out of this with?
00:38:48.040 We're certainly not going to come out of the situation
00:38:50.460 that we've just been through with a great faith in scientists.
00:38:53.020 Oh, it's like, don't worry, I'm a scientist.
00:38:58.280 I'll be like, oh, fuck.
00:38:59.960 You know, scientists are the new estate agents nowadays, aren't they?
00:39:03.480 It's like, so people need meaning, right?
00:39:06.040 we've spent a long time looking for science we have to turn around and look to the to the values
00:39:11.220 of the real values that society was built on and those are judeo-christian values and that's you
00:39:16.720 gotta look up there and look at what was said by him and what was said by the people that followed
00:39:21.060 him that's what i reckon that's my view and that's not coming from a person who's like profoundly
00:39:25.940 religious i'm just going there is a manual they wrote a book about this before you know and and
00:39:32.380 try and bring some of those those values back you know very complex things within the bible
00:39:38.060 are really tricky to get your head around and they can educate and you know all you can do is
00:39:42.700 educate your kids educate the people around you like i've i've sort of took took a bit of a break
00:39:47.240 off twitter and i've started using our family whatsapp group instead so i want to share this
00:39:53.220 information because you know you're not going to get back but you can still disagree you know and
00:39:58.540 just gather with all sorts of people and always offer them your good faith that's the only thing
00:40:02.920 i can think because you know it's going to be abused regardless by a small minority but i think
00:40:07.940 they are a small minority i don't think people are as stupid as the media think they are and i
00:40:12.120 don't think people are as sheepy as um the media and the twitter think they are and i think people
00:40:17.480 think that twitter's real world absolutely isn't you know think about all the people that don't
00:40:21.580 tweet man i got a stack of letters a stack huge stack of letters just from people saying thank
00:40:27.500 you so much for saying that you know and it's like 33 Cosgrove Lane Lincolnshire you know and
00:40:33.060 it's like someone getting fucking cancelled right now the police were called 33 Cosgrove Lane
00:40:40.020 Lincolnshire this morning reports of a man um yeah so I think there's a there's a very look
00:40:47.360 the the more peaceful side of the argument is quieter it doesn't want to get into trouble
00:40:53.800 i'm in trouble i mean i'm not i mean i am but i'm not ultimately i'm not because i'm not i'm not
00:40:58.840 i know that i'm not trying to operate my heart in a negative and malicious way i'm unable to
00:41:03.560 cause other people harm i'm trying to go let's not cause each other harm and in spite of all of
00:41:09.540 the shit that has been chucked at me i'm grateful for that shit actually because it makes you
00:41:13.640 stronger and you know you i just don't feel you can do that alone as i've said before i'm just
00:41:18.500 like when i felt like that i'm like that help me please get me out of this i don't go like
00:41:23.360 or I call a friend or whatever,
00:41:25.200 but I'm not like, oh, maybe I'll read this.
00:41:28.720 You know, it's like, no, it's within you.
00:41:31.900 You know, the world is within you.
00:41:33.260 Your world is the world.
00:41:34.520 So, you know, you're better off being yourself
00:41:37.680 than being anyone else, as Oscar Wilde said, isn't it?
00:41:40.660 And do you think there are a lot of,
00:41:42.000 there are some people who use what is happening
00:41:45.520 very cynically as a way to promote their career?
00:41:48.660 Well, no.
00:41:51.960 Francis.
00:41:53.360 you're now responsible
00:41:56.040 I'm responsible
00:41:58.660 I
00:42:00.240 yeah
00:42:00.640 totally
00:42:01.260 but you know
00:42:02.320 also I don't blame them
00:42:03.240 have your opinion
00:42:04.520 it doesn't bother me
00:42:05.620 just allow me mine
00:42:06.700 and that is where we're fucked
00:42:08.820 is the fact that we're fighting
00:42:10.240 over the right to have an opinion
00:42:11.260 and that
00:42:12.560 by that time
00:42:13.440 like I said in the bad faith argument
00:42:14.980 you've already lost
00:42:16.360 you know
00:42:17.420 if you're not meeting someone
00:42:18.660 and going
00:42:19.180 I have an opinion
00:42:19.900 you have an opinion
00:42:20.740 you know
00:42:21.500 I could see the way that
00:42:23.180 Amory was looking at me.
00:42:24.440 He'd made up his mind about me,
00:42:25.780 and I'm never going to change his mind about me,
00:42:27.440 but it will never stop me inviting him to go for a walk.
00:42:29.800 And that's the best you can do.
00:42:31.580 And you hope that in some recess of my brain stuff that he says,
00:42:36.060 he said something really interesting to me about racism, right,
00:42:38.440 which stuck with me, and I've kept it.
00:42:40.260 He said it's like mosquito bites being subjected to racist attacks.
00:42:46.360 Like, one is not too bad.
00:42:48.560 It's a bit annoying.
00:42:49.500 But he says, get hundreds of them.
00:42:51.820 Your life becomes unbearable.
00:42:53.180 And that really stuck with me. And I thought, that's a really brilliant way of explaining it. And I've taken that away. And I've thought, yeah, we should be more, we should be gentler and more understanding and more aware of these issues, because they do cause people great hate.
00:43:08.020 but on when i returned with you know well later on around our little walk around the park and i
00:43:14.120 spoke about the you know what kneeling potentially would mean to you know someone who born english
00:43:21.780 went to an english school you know whatever color that they are it's like no don't agree
00:43:26.840 and i'm like okay well then you know we're fucked then aren't we but you've got to keep talking to
00:43:32.080 them because you've got to love them love that i love your what is it love the enemy well i'm
00:43:37.220 really good what is it i'll stab him in the face hello love your enemies yeah you know you do it's
00:43:43.940 there's there's no other way what do you want to do i build a heart full of hatred for these people
00:43:48.080 i'm like no fuck off i love you it's fine do what you want do your worst as well and i remember
00:43:55.220 always remember this quote we were talking to count dankler the guy who made the pug video
00:43:59.920 and he said something that always stuck with me.
00:44:02.720 He said, we don't really believe in forgiveness anymore.
00:44:05.740 Do you think that's the case?
00:44:06.920 Well, they don't, certainly.
00:44:08.940 There is no forgiveness in that religion, is there?
00:44:12.020 Because it's so immediate and the intersections are so constant.
00:44:16.500 It's like ISIS.
00:44:18.340 Someone was saying to me that within ISIS as an organisation,
00:44:22.380 if you're not the most hardcore terrorist,
00:44:26.020 then you'll kill the slightly less hardcore one.
00:44:28.560 So it's a competition.
00:44:29.920 It's a race to the top of extremism.
00:44:32.660 And, you know, so they incentivize you becoming more and more crazy and insane.
00:44:38.420 And, you know, look, they're cancelling their own now.
00:44:40.800 So hopefully they'll, you know, go and all go off to Chaz for summer.
00:44:47.000 Do you think they'll summer in Chaz?
00:44:49.080 Where are you summering this year? Chaz.
00:44:51.460 Do you know how transformational that would be for so many people
00:44:54.080 to go and actually see their little utopia play out in all its horror
00:44:59.360 and dirty glory.
00:45:00.980 Well, maybe that's why he's leaving.
00:45:02.740 Maybe that's why the orange man bad
00:45:05.680 is leaving, not saying anything about it.
00:45:08.640 He wants them all to form one big Chaz
00:45:10.720 and just leave him in there
00:45:11.740 for a couple of weeks, they'll learn.
00:45:13.840 America's in a place where
00:45:14.860 what would happen if he ordered his generals
00:45:16.400 to go in and break up Chaz?
00:45:20.220 That's where America's at.
00:45:22.100 So we think we're febrile.
00:45:24.100 Yeah.
00:45:24.600 Imagine saying to the police,
00:45:25.800 go and protect that statue
00:45:27.100 and the police don't know.
00:45:28.180 I'm just going to stop the conversation.
00:45:29.980 Do you know how mental what has just happened is?
00:45:33.580 Right, yeah.
00:45:34.160 There's like a little independent republic now
00:45:36.640 that has called itself Chaz
00:45:37.880 that has walled itself off from everyone
00:45:40.060 where people now want to live independently
00:45:42.900 and in downtown Seattle.
00:45:46.160 And everyone's like, okay.
00:45:48.200 It's just funny now.
00:45:49.560 I think everyone's just going...
00:45:51.320 It's just funny now.
00:45:53.640 You can't not laugh.
00:45:54.820 You can't take this stuff seriously.
00:45:56.040 And it's obviously a stupid little game because the moment the power companies turn off the electricity and the city stops taking away the trash and...
00:46:03.840 The vegan sausage has run out.
00:46:06.120 I was going to talk about something that happened, but I can't even be bothered.
00:46:09.620 Like, it's just a joke.
00:46:12.440 It's a game that they play and they pretend that it's real, but it's not.
00:46:15.820 And I don't know what to do about it because it's just, how can you not laugh at it anymore?
00:46:20.440 They're like badly behaved kids.
00:46:22.820 All right.
00:46:23.440 No, I'm living here and this is my castle.
00:46:27.300 You're not coming into my castle
00:46:28.840 because my castle is a nice castle
00:46:30.500 with nice princesses and princesses
00:46:32.460 who are really nice to each other.
00:46:33.860 Is that okay, man?
00:46:36.080 Cool.
00:46:38.600 See you in a bit.
00:46:41.080 Enjoy Chaz.
00:46:42.600 Enjoy Chaz.
00:46:44.160 Brilliant.
00:46:44.920 I mean, Constantine and I disagree with this.
00:46:48.240 I think a lot of the reason
00:46:49.600 why we've ramped up the insanity is lockdown.
00:46:52.380 yeah no i i think yeah i think you're right and then part of me thinks that's that i mean the
00:46:57.020 really cynical horrible part of my brain thinks that's all part of the idea all part of the plan
00:47:01.600 was to was to put people into that position and then wind them up and see what happened you know
00:47:10.760 because i mean at the end of the day what how many i mean look lots of people have died and
00:47:14.380 it's a fucking horrific tragedy and it's really bad for old people but is the reaction proportionate
00:47:18.960 to the danger i don't know certainly not the reaction was certainly proportionate to what
00:47:24.180 niall ferguson said the danger was but in with hindsight are we going to look back and say the
00:47:28.440 reaction was proportionate to this danger i think possibly not your full great outdoors comedy
00:47:32.660 festival lineup is here on september 11th through 13th at arendale park three nights five shows
00:47:39.700 huge laughs september 11th through 13th buy tickets now at great outdoors comedy festival.com
00:47:48.960 Well, his penis didn't.
00:47:50.720 Yeah, yeah, that's true.
00:47:52.120 That's true.
00:47:52.900 I still can't hate him.
00:47:54.540 You can't, you've got to respect the guy.
00:47:56.140 He's batting way above his average.
00:47:57.720 He's got the opportunity.
00:47:58.780 He's went for it.
00:47:59.520 How romantic is that?
00:48:00.860 Honey, I've risked death to be here.
00:48:03.020 Death, my career, and the future of the country.
00:48:05.660 Just to be here.
00:48:06.540 That's how much I love you, baby.
00:48:08.760 Them both getting into their little scientific suits,
00:48:11.540 just unzipping their hole.
00:48:15.820 It was, you know, hazmat shagging.
00:48:18.600 Yeah.
00:48:18.960 yeah
00:48:19.460 it's hot
00:48:19.980 well
00:48:20.620 why did we buy it
00:48:21.840 it's so English
00:48:22.500 that isn't it
00:48:23.080 as well
00:48:23.420 like when you sort of
00:48:24.240 have a like
00:48:24.680 you think
00:48:25.060 ah good old English spirit
00:48:26.380 we'll get out of this
00:48:27.120 in some way
00:48:27.700 and then it all ends up
00:48:28.800 fucked
00:48:29.140 it's so English
00:48:31.160 like we'll solve this
00:48:32.240 no problem
00:48:32.800 and then like
00:48:33.620 two months later
00:48:34.660 everyone's like
00:48:35.220 and it's like
00:48:37.300 yeah you've totally
00:48:37.900 fucked everything
00:48:38.560 I'll tell you why
00:48:39.700 I disagree with the two of you
00:48:40.940 about the lockdown
00:48:42.120 being the critical issue here
00:48:43.360 because
00:48:43.760 I just see this
00:48:45.320 you said it
00:48:46.720 you said it here
00:48:47.440 seven months ago
00:48:48.340 before there was any lockdown, before we had COVID-19.
00:48:51.780 This was always going to be the final destination.
00:48:54.740 And it's the product of 30 or 40 years of the long march to the institutions
00:48:59.500 indoctrinating young people into thinking or not thinking and feeling everything.
00:49:04.280 If I feel this is true, then it's true.
00:49:06.900 And you see this playing out now.
00:49:09.700 Maybe it accelerated the process, but I don't think it's the lockdown what did it.
00:49:15.360 I think it's the fact that for 40 years they've been making this happen.
00:49:19.480 And, you know, we live in the, you know,
00:49:21.380 ultimately we live in the freest, most democratic situation
00:49:24.780 in the history of mankind.
00:49:26.520 And, you know, if you're still moaning about things,
00:49:30.780 then, you know, on your iPhone, you know,
00:49:33.940 my kids can't even believe that I didn't have an iPhone when I was a kid.
00:49:38.660 They just don't understand it.
00:49:40.560 Really?
00:49:41.080 So, yeah, they're just like, oh, rubbish.
00:49:42.560 How did you get in touch with people?
00:49:44.320 What happened when your dad went away at work?
00:49:45.760 And I said, I never spoke to him.
00:49:46.780 He went away for three months.
00:49:48.220 And then he came back.
00:49:49.140 It was too expensive to call on a landline to, you know, wherever he was filming.
00:49:53.520 It's like they just don't understand it.
00:49:54.940 So there is an element of being a bit spoiled, I think.
00:49:57.980 And I don't like the argument that we're not doing enough to try and reduce inequality
00:50:05.420 because none of these conversations seem to be about reducing inequality at all.
00:50:09.560 They seem to be about maximizing it and maximizing division.
00:50:13.560 and all of the things.
00:50:14.640 I mean, I've said it from the beginning.
00:50:15.940 I think the Wokey bunch are exactly what they accuse you of
00:50:20.060 to the very core, and it starts off with racism, you know?
00:50:25.880 Well, they're racist.
00:50:26.700 I've always said they're the new racist.
00:50:28.340 That's what they are.
00:50:28.840 It's so easy to, you know, throw it all at somebody else,
00:50:32.460 and it's so sad.
00:50:34.120 Yeah, I mean, I wish I could go like, there's an answer,
00:50:37.760 but I'm like, there isn't.
00:50:40.040 I mean, you know, people probably try and cancel me again,
00:50:43.560 because I would have said
00:50:44.640 something stupid
00:50:45.300 well fuck off
00:50:46.020 sorry
00:50:46.320 it's like
00:50:48.640 but we gotta talk
00:50:49.660 yeah
00:50:50.100 and you know
00:50:51.000 you guys have put this together
00:50:52.100 in that way
00:50:53.240 and you know
00:50:53.880 people disagree
00:50:54.900 just disagree
00:50:56.160 don't just go
00:50:56.680 fuck fuck fuck fuck
00:50:57.520 that doesn't work
00:50:58.900 just go
00:50:59.320 this is why I disagree with you
00:51:00.560 engage with people
00:51:01.600 do it in good faith
00:51:02.720 and we will
00:51:03.280 we will move on
00:51:04.400 but we've done it man
00:51:05.580 like
00:51:06.000 we've invited people
00:51:07.780 who are critical of us
00:51:08.740 onto the show
00:51:09.500 and do they come?
00:51:10.460 no
00:51:10.620 no
00:51:11.100 they say
00:51:12.200 we don't want to come
00:51:13.680 on your show
00:51:14.140 I'm going to be
00:51:15.240 physically attacked
00:51:16.040 by your violent
00:51:16.880 whatever
00:51:18.080 followers
00:51:18.640 no followers
00:51:19.840 that's how they do it
00:51:21.040 that's what Nihar
00:51:21.620 was saying to me
00:51:22.400 the other day
00:51:22.920 he was saying to me
00:51:24.320 he's like
00:51:24.560 all of your followers
00:51:25.300 are like white supremacists
00:51:26.620 I'm like alright
00:51:27.120 okay yeah
00:51:27.600 all of them are yeah
00:51:28.440 okay
00:51:29.180 end of
00:51:29.940 our fans don't attack people
00:51:32.180 they don't go after people
00:51:33.240 they don't do any of that
00:51:35.620 we just get people
00:51:36.580 on to talk
00:51:37.060 and we had
00:51:37.800 Lord Adonis on the show
00:51:39.160 the architect
00:51:39.820 of the Remain
00:51:40.720 the remain second referendum all of that shit people downvoted the video some of them some
00:51:47.080 people upvoted the video and appreciated that we had a conversation that was it that was it yeah
00:51:52.420 like he lord adonis is like lord voldemort to to the pro brexit crowd we had him on the show we had
00:51:59.080 a great respectful conversation we agreed with some of the things she said we disagreed with
00:52:03.500 other stuff we've had socialists on the show we've had people all from all over the political
00:52:08.820 spectrum and that's why the cynical part of my brain goes it's just an excuse they just don't
00:52:15.580 want to have the conversation because they'd lose the conversation it's like you know if you ever
00:52:20.660 try and engage people like that you just stay quiet and wait for them to tie themselves in and
00:52:24.180 not you know that's that's what happens anyone who acts in bad faith you just go tell me why
00:52:29.880 sorry and then they'll expect they'll say something really compassionate start off with
00:52:34.520 something very compassionate like you know we just need to really support each other i just
00:52:37.960 don't believe we support each other enough and i'm like in what way do i agree with you what what
00:52:42.440 what do you think we should do to support each other he's got no idea mate he's told him dead
00:52:48.560 inside exactly because it's like you the only thing you can be in control of is yourself
00:52:52.780 and they don't want to be in control of themselves do they they want to be in control of you and me
00:52:57.300 and i'm like no i'm not up for that thanks chaps um bye no and we've come to the end of uh the
00:53:06.480 interview it's been absolutely brilliant lawrence but we always ask one question at the end uh
00:53:10.940 that is what is the one thing we're still not talking about that we ought to be talking about
00:53:16.400 as a society um kids education how to educate your children you know don't leave your children
00:53:26.940 to be educated by someone else educate them yourselves as much as possible surround your
00:53:31.020 children with adults, surround them with diverse opinions and diverse, you know, not the diverse
00:53:36.200 colours and all of this stuff. God, that sounds so patronising, but it's like, I don't want to
00:53:40.120 have to point out that diversity includes different coloured skin. Of course it does.
00:53:46.900 Yeah, make sure your kids are equipped to deal with the world, because they're the ones that
00:53:51.740 are going to have to deal with what comes next. That's a very good point. Lawrence,
00:53:56.040 Thank you for coming back.
00:53:57.120 Thank you for having me.
00:53:57.660 It is good to have you back.
00:54:00.700 We're all trying to do the same thing, man.
00:54:02.420 I know.
00:54:03.640 And it's important that, you know, I just say I've seen your journey
00:54:07.660 and I think a lot of people, a lot of people respect you tremendously
00:54:11.760 for speaking on these issues.
00:54:13.700 I respect you tremendously for speaking on this issue
00:54:15.680 and we really appreciate you coming back.
00:54:17.120 I'm really grateful for you having me.
00:54:18.440 Thank you and well done for doing what you're doing
00:54:19.860 because that's part of the answer too.
00:54:21.980 All right.
00:54:22.320 Well, make sure you go and check out Lawrence's, all of his work.
00:54:25.480 white lines is fucking smashing it white lines is smashing it yeah white lines is smashing it
00:54:30.360 let's see whether my opinions get me into the second series
00:54:33.860 gotta say being half south american i do love white lines
00:54:38.000 see we've gone back to that kind of basement level of humor as i promised you would happen
00:54:44.660 uh the lockdown has served you well mate very good um and uh i've just broken social distancing
00:54:50.440 on camera so uh we're cancelled officially thank you very much for tuning in we'll see you in a
00:54:54.980 couple of days with another brilliant interview and of course check out our live streams if you
00:54:58.840 haven't already that's where all the top level banter happens thank you very much and we'll see
00:55:02.940 you very soon take care guys