TRIGGERnometry - Laurence Fox：＂They Seek to Murder Your Opinion＂

00:00:00.000 they have heard something in the water they seek a cure for the conversation they stole a march on

00:00:13.620 your indecision and the first of all was laughter just to quell the unoffended they seek to murder

00:00:25.080 your opinion

00:00:26.340 and the light has been

00:00:31.260 turned out

00:00:32.260 on the age of reason

00:00:35.220 replaced by blinding

00:00:37.380 fires that burn wild

00:00:39.540 across the region

00:00:41.060 for the wrong to rule

00:00:42.960 the good must just stand

00:00:44.940 idly by

00:00:46.320 so I need you more than

00:00:54.900 I need your hand in this resistance

00:00:58.200 If we're going to go the distance

00:01:01.520 And if I ever doubt it

00:01:07.480 I think about my future

00:01:09.980 And if I'd want to live there

00:01:13.860 And the world outside is wondrous wide

00:01:20.100 For a reason

00:01:21.520 If you can't decide, you must blow your own mind

00:01:25.880 For that reason, for the wrong to rule

00:01:29.180 Your good must just stand idly blind

00:01:32.840 And that's no lie

00:01:36.780 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:45.260 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:01:46.300 And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet

00:01:50.140 over subjects they know nothing about.

00:01:53.060 At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:01:57.480 Our brilliant guest this week is an actor and singer-songwriter,

00:02:00.940 Lawrence Fox, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:03.100 Hi guys, thank you so much for having me on.

00:02:04.960 Well, we've just played a little bit of your single that has just come out with your album,

00:02:09.100 but before we get into talking about what it is that you're talking about

00:02:12.180 and some of those things, just tell everybody who are you,

00:02:14.800 how are you, where you are, what has brought you to the chair that you're sitting in now?

00:02:17.800 right well my i'm lawrence fox obviously um i am an actor and um about when did i start about 2010

00:02:27.640 i started writing songs and um recording them and they people like them so they ended up getting

00:02:34.080 released and all that stuff and now i end up on my third musical project now which i'm just about

00:02:39.680 to release and i've been watching you guys on on the tinternet well there's a mutual respect

00:02:45.460 happening here which is always great when it happens uh but actually before i i talk ask about

00:02:50.060 your single i was going to say i did a little bit of research and i get the sense that you are a

00:02:53.880 lifelong rebel is that is that fair enough i don't know we were raised i in our family we were raised

00:02:59.640 not to take on board what anybody else said you know we were encouraged to resolve our own conflicts

00:03:04.400 between ourselves and also to be um to be free in our thought and that i think now is bordering on

00:03:12.060 nazis it's slightly yeah it's rebellious i don't like being told what to do yeah then i did go to

00:03:18.920 boarding school for a long time and that doesn't help with that condition yeah yeah well welcome

00:03:24.560 home brother this is the home of rebels so uh let's let's talk about your single because you

00:03:29.160 sent it to me um before it came out and i was just sitting there playing on repeat for about

00:03:35.060 an hour because i was so touched by it and it is genuinely like what art in my opinion should be

00:03:41.820 which is where not only are you entertaining and making good music,

00:03:45.480 but you're actually saying something.

00:03:47.300 So I just want to read everybody a few lines from your single.

00:03:50.280 They put something in the water.

00:03:52.420 They seek a cure for the conversation.

00:03:54.820 They stole a march on your indecision.

00:03:57.300 And the first of all was laughter, just to quell that unoffended.

00:04:01.820 They seek to murder your opinions.

00:04:04.160 And the light has been turned down on the age of reason.

00:04:08.680 I should write something.

00:04:09.860 and you have

00:04:11.700 and it sounds a lot better

00:04:12.780 when he's actually singing

00:04:13.860 no it doesn't

00:04:14.640 it sounds wonderful

00:04:15.400 but what are you

00:04:16.980 what are you talking about Lawrence?

00:04:18.720 I think I was sat in a

00:04:20.400 what used to be called a trailer

00:04:22.080 but is now a hutch

00:04:23.160 as an actor

00:04:24.560 up on set

00:04:25.840 last year

00:04:27.060 filming something

00:04:28.300 I can't remember what it was

00:04:29.440 probably Victoria

00:04:30.160 or something like that

00:04:30.840 and there was this sort of

00:04:32.560 Barney going on outside

00:04:33.740 about Kavanagh

00:04:35.300 the Kavanagh hearings

00:04:36.740 and the girls

00:04:37.660 were very much of the opinion

00:04:39.420 and that, you know, you've got to believe her

00:04:41.260 and he's got to go to jail straight away and all of that.

00:04:44.440 And I was sat there going, what?

00:04:47.020 Do we not do the burden of proof

00:04:50.580 and, you know, the innocent till proven guilty thing anymore?

00:04:52.800 We've got Twitter now.

00:04:53.660 We don't need that.

00:04:55.080 And it started to really bother me.

00:04:57.140 And then I started to become quite obsessed with American politics

00:05:00.340 because I was so bored of the B word.

00:05:02.640 And I just started thinking,

00:05:04.060 I don't think the same as any of these people.

00:05:07.140 And then I thought, oh, OK, so there's a right opinion.

00:05:10.680 You have to have the right opinion. 0.99

00:05:12.480 And the right opinion is Brett Kavanaugh is a rapist who needs to be struck off and not put on the subreddit. 1.00

00:05:18.020 Or gang rapist, apparently. 1.00

00:05:19.180 Gang rapist, absolutely. 1.00

00:05:20.880 And, you know, Brexit is terrible. 0.99

00:05:22.780 And if only we'd known what we were voting for, everything would be fine, that sort of thing.

00:05:26.100 And I started going, oh, I don't have the right opinion, which bothered me.

00:05:30.880 And then I thought, it's very hard.

00:05:33.360 If you try and express what you want to say, however reasonable or unreasonable it is, there is a group of people who will shut you down immediately.

00:05:42.680 And that made me slightly terrified because, you know, stuff like reason and I don't know what, you know, again, these terribly racist things like the Enlightenment values, you know, are being cast aside and thrown away.

00:05:55.580 And I just found it scary.

00:05:56.880 And then I'm a dad, so, you know, my kids come and shovel it at me sometimes as well. 0.85

00:06:01.820 And I'm sort of going, OK, I need to document this, how I feel about it and bringing together the thought of presenting quite a negative position, which is, you know, the world's fucked, which is how it feels a bit at the moment.

00:06:15.760 But also saying that you can get through that if you if you find somebody or other people that, you know, you can do it together with, I think is what I was trying to do.

00:06:24.520 And you said that you feel like you're the only one, a sense, in your industry.

00:06:29.240 But don't you think a lot of people probably in your industry feel the same way?

00:06:33.040 It's just they're just worried that if they come out and say these things,

00:06:36.140 their commercial opportunities, their chance to progress is going to be curtailed.

00:06:40.200 Yeah, I mean, I think it's very difficult, isn't it, in our industry.

00:06:46.120 Well, we're all, you know, actors especially, and comedians as well,

00:06:50.000 and any artist feel that they are quite important in some way, don't they?

00:06:55.580 But with this sort of death of religion and all of those things

00:06:59.300 and people becoming kind of a religion of one,

00:07:02.880 it's like what I think and my feelings and my compassion are so important 0.81

00:07:06.200 that if you don't agree with me, then my God smites you 0.89

00:07:09.860 because you're the sinner. 0.98

00:07:12.580 It's really difficult.

00:07:13.540 So for me, I imagine lots of people think the same way as I do,

00:07:19.100 but people just keep their mouths shut because they don't that very small and very vocal minority

00:07:24.300 of people come in and give you a load of jip if you don't say the right thing which is kind of

00:07:29.440 i mean i hate to bandy the word around a little bit fascistic well this is an interesting thing

00:07:35.520 that i think expressing some of these opinions as you are doing and as we try to create space

00:07:42.080 for people to do it allows other people to look at that and go oh maybe maybe i can say what i

00:07:47.980 think now maybe it's okay maybe there's other people like me and that's why it's so great that

00:07:53.100 you've come on from the music industry and we we're going to be talking to people from like

00:07:57.460 fashion world like this is everywhere it's not just comedy it's not just music it's not just

00:08:03.060 politics it is literally everywhere well it's sort of opened up a chasm hasn't it twitter probably

00:08:07.800 as much as possible and i think um douglas murray is saying that it slightly started after the

00:08:13.360 financial crisis, but

00:08:15.140 definitely this, we're starting to see

00:08:17.300 that there are two opinions

00:08:18.460 in conflict with one another, and what

00:08:21.240 they call the left and the right, but what I call the

00:08:23.280 sensible and the mad people.

00:08:25.100 You know, the people that want to have a conversation.

00:08:28.200 So, yeah. And you mentioned that

00:08:29.320 your son is bringing some of the

00:08:31.280 stuff home from school. Yeah, I mean, they've

00:08:33.200 started them early, don't they?

00:08:35.180 You know, they really do, and

00:08:37.360 it sort of starts with a kind of gentle

00:08:39.400 insistent fear. I went to watch him in a

00:08:41.360 football match, and

00:08:42.260 And we were encouraged not to clap when he scored.

00:08:46.360 Well, he didn't score because he was in defense, but his mate scored. 0.51

00:08:50.100 And I was like, get in!

00:08:51.340 And then the PE teacher was a bit like, we don't do that.

00:08:54.700 And I said, what's your opinion on this?

00:08:56.180 And he said, well, it's actually not that many people that insist on a lack of competitiveness,

00:09:00.440 but they're very vocal about it.

00:09:02.380 So you're sort of left going, what do I do?

00:09:05.860 And then my son will try and say things to me like, well, it doesn't matter.

00:09:08.500 Winning doesn't matter.

00:09:09.660 And I'll be like, okay, let's play FIFA.

00:09:12.260 and i go from dad fifa to dad fifa and i and then he gets very confused and upset and he's

00:09:20.620 you know i think kids can be in conflict with their own competitiveness and it's nothing wrong

00:09:25.080 with being a bit competitive you know competitiveness is good because one child will

00:09:29.500 become good at something another child will want to raise their game and then often the other child

00:09:32.740 goes ahead and then your child needs to catch up and it's kind of a good thing but we're sort of

00:09:38.180 rewriting the entire rule book of life for some pretty untested theories, seemingly, to me.

00:09:44.000 And ones, in my mind, are completely contradictory to what I actually think and how I raise my kids, for example.

00:09:52.100 And was there a tipping moment for you where you just thought, I can't shut up any longer?

00:09:56.480 I think probably with, I think it must have been when I, once the Jordan Peterson and that trans debate started, you know.

00:10:07.680 And then also I had a friend who went to Oxford, and she started saying some things to me which I thought was like, what?

00:10:15.240 Why do I have to think that?

00:10:17.340 And it was the insistence.

00:10:19.260 It wasn't like we could talk and disagree and come to a, you know, compromise in a situation.

00:10:24.220 It was the insistence.

00:10:24.980 If I didn't agree with her, I was 100% evil, essentially, and needed educating.

00:10:31.100 And I found that frightening.

00:10:32.520 And it reminded me of history class at school and communists, you know, and that which apparently they don't teach at school anymore.

00:10:38.700 You mentioned left and right. And I wonder how how much that applies anymore, because, you know, Francis and I, he's old school left.

00:10:46.220 I'm very much in the center. I know lots of people on the left who are as concerned about some of this stuff.

00:10:51.800 I think left and right is more a conversation about your economic views, about economic policy.

00:10:56.820 What I think unites people like us and a lot of the people who watch the show isn't where they're coming at from.

00:11:01.900 Do they vote Labour or do they vote Tory or Democrats or Republicans? 0.98

00:11:05.620 It's much more about are you on board with this woke shit or are you not? 1.00

00:11:10.820 And I think that's probably where I'm what I'm feeling from you is you are fed up of having that ran down your throat. 0.99

00:11:18.600 Yeah, I am fed up of it because I think you must express your thoughts to other people and they must be free to express them back.

00:11:25.240 And that's how you have, who was it was saying, you know, the way democracy works is that the loser has to accept that it was Rod Little, wasn't it? The loser has to accept that the winner won. And we're now living in this, it is a religion and a sort of cult. I find it terrifying. I think it's really wrong to not allow people to express themselves freely, because it's the beginning of the end if you don't do that.

00:11:49.760 What about this idea that it's hate speech and it's inciting violence?

00:11:53.840 And if we talk about, you know, diversity or any of these kind of things that are part of this new religion and we say the wrong thing, well, that makes people feel unsafe and uncomfortable and all.

00:12:04.060 This is the counter argument.

00:12:05.320 Well, then grow a pair.

00:12:07.800 Genuinely.

00:12:08.560 I've had a lot of nasty things said to me.

00:12:10.700 I've had a lot of nasty things done to me.

00:12:12.280 I've done a lot of nasty things to people and lots of things I regret.

00:12:14.720 But we're a process, right?

00:12:15.780 All of us.

00:12:16.300 We're a process, and we can't be categorized in the instant, in the moment.

00:12:21.160 We're a product of things and a product of our thoughts and our feelings.

00:12:26.240 We're not just, you know, an identitarian, you're this, you're that,

00:12:29.960 therefore your opinion works like that.

00:12:32.020 I can't tolerate it, so I'm now intolerant.

00:12:34.680 I'm intolerant of it, which I suppose is where the problem is,

00:12:38.920 because it comes from a place of compassion, doesn't it?

00:12:41.320 The whole woke thing comes from a place of compassion,

00:12:43.380 understanding you know the sort of intersections of people so you have to be very compassionate

00:12:47.840 but compassionate compassion is very brutal if applied through a human context i imagine

00:12:54.980 i think it's like it's a it's a dangerous thing because in the service of being compassionate

00:13:00.580 anything goes even the shutting up of people deemed to be non-compassionate and therefore

00:13:07.100 hate speech and things like that it's it's convoluted it's not truthful you know what hate

00:13:13.740 speech is hate speech is an incitement to violence that's what hate speech is and it's rightly

00:13:18.220 legalized against legislated against but you know calling someone a twat but it's sort of happening

00:13:25.080 with football as well now and you know while you while you totally want to stamp out racism in

00:13:30.220 football and it's a horrible thing you get you would believe that every single person who goes

00:13:34.740 and watches a football game is a virulent racist.

00:13:37.720 And I was taken to Plough Lane constantly by my dad when we were a kid.

00:13:42.120 And there were some racist things said.

00:13:43.700 But there were also a huge number of families there.

00:13:46.960 And there wasn't, you know, there was a lot of just football fans there.

00:13:51.180 And you slightly get the feeling now when you look at the papers.

00:13:53.180 It's like, yes, we need to stamp out racism in football.

00:13:56.800 How wonderful and brilliant it was that the English football team

00:14:00.300 made their stand last week.

00:14:01.840 But also you slightly get the other side of that coin,

00:14:03.860 which is all the guys that watch football are racists.

00:14:07.140 You slightly get that feeling.

00:14:08.480 Do you get that feeling at all?

00:14:09.660 Yeah, I do.

00:14:10.560 I get the feeling that a lot of the times

00:14:13.020 what we do is we demonise the working class. 1.00

00:14:15.040 The white working class especially, yeah. 0.86

00:14:17.120 Yeah, and, you know, for instance, things like Brexit. 1.00

00:14:19.660 They're stupid. 1.00

00:14:20.280 They didn't know what they voted for. 1.00

00:14:21.560 They're thick. 1.00

00:14:22.120 They're racist. 0.97

00:14:22.820 The same with football.

00:14:23.920 Yeah.

00:14:24.320 And actually, a large part of football

00:14:26.100 is calling an opposition player 1.00

00:14:28.380 who is a young millionaire a cunt 1.00

00:14:30.820 and you should be encouraged. 1.00

00:14:32.760 Gin-a-la, gin-a-la.

00:14:33.860 his French's query takes it up the rear.

00:14:36.140 Gin a la.

00:14:36.800 You know, that's what we had.

00:14:38.480 That's what we had.

00:14:40.380 That's what we had when we were at football.

00:14:41.840 It's like, okay, is that hate speech?

00:14:43.800 Well, it is now.

00:14:44.780 I mean, it is hate speech.

00:14:46.320 And it's inaccurate, as far as I can gather, from Gin a la.

00:14:50.100 But it's funny, too, right?

00:14:51.640 It rhymes.

00:14:52.500 It rhymes.

00:14:53.540 It works.

00:14:54.320 That's the most important thing.

00:14:55.440 As long as it's racism or homophobia rhymes, that's it.

00:14:58.500 Yeah.

00:14:58.720 You're done.

00:14:59.680 Absolutely.

00:15:00.480 I mean, we're joking, of course.

00:15:02.280 But when you talk about demonizing groups of people, I think that's really what I feel that we're talking about now is like we seem to live in a society that is, according to these people and this ideology, has never been worse.

00:15:14.940 It has never been more racist.

00:15:17.080 It has never been more homophobic.

00:15:19.200 There's never been more intolerance.

00:15:21.160 When we know, statistically speaking, it's actually the opposite.

00:15:23.900 It has never been as good as it is now.

00:15:26.560 Yeah, it's exactly right.

00:15:28.100 I think Douglas Murray's right when he says it was all looking pretty good

00:15:32.860 and then the train just went off down the tracks and went mad.

00:15:37.180 I notice it with girls that I know.

00:15:40.440 The younger the girl, often the patriarchy's really done them in

00:15:46.620 and there's a lot of things blocking their progress that aren't about them,

00:15:51.340 boys and girls.

00:15:52.360 You're sort of going, why are you generating a victim mentality for these people?

00:15:56.780 What's the point?

00:15:58.100 Why wouldn't you encourage somebody to overcome their obstacles rather than go, you know, well, it's the patriarchy, isn't it?

00:16:05.740 There's only 9.6% of directors are females. 0.74

00:16:09.800 And I'm like, but it's going up, right?

00:16:12.000 It's not going down.

00:16:13.000 There wasn't 50% female directors and it's now 9.6%. 0.97

00:16:16.220 It was there and we're going there.

00:16:19.340 So what's the problem?

00:16:21.100 Yeah, we can get there better, quicker and faster.

00:16:23.060 But we're not living in a world full of people that hate and abuse and all that.

00:16:27.320 In actual fact, the only hate and abuse I'm encountering is when I say something like that to someone like that.

00:16:34.660 Do you know what I mean?

00:16:35.820 No, absolutely.

00:16:36.560 And where do you stand on the whole sort of Hollywood whitewashing?

00:16:39.460 Because that has been something that we've talked about a lot.

00:16:42.080 And, you know, characters are originally ethnic minority.

00:16:45.380 Oh, not ethnic minority, a different race. 0.97

00:16:47.400 And then suddenly you get a white person playing them.

00:16:49.300 For example, Tilda Swinton in Doctor Strange.

00:16:52.100 Do you think that's a real problem within Hollywood or are we starting to tackle it more?

00:16:55.760 I think that you obviously, I mean, I don't know,

00:17:00.700 because it's called acting, isn't it?

00:17:02.320 So basically the clue is in the word.

00:17:05.740 So Tilda Swinton can play whatever she wants to play. 1.00

00:17:08.180 Jack Whitehall can play a gay guy.

00:17:09.720 It doesn't bother me.

00:17:10.320 I've just played a Mancunian.

00:17:11.800 And I said to an actor friend of mine, I'm playing a Mancunian.

00:17:15.160 He went, why didn't they get a Mancunian to play it?

00:17:18.120 And I was like, because it's called acting.

00:17:20.600 That's why it is.

00:17:21.460 I don't know.

00:17:21.940 I think Hollywood probably has been sort of run by the kind of, you know, there is a, but America's a largely white country, right?

00:17:28.580 You know, so you're making a product for the, for the consumer.

00:17:32.160 And as that changes, as the demographic changes, then you get different sorts of films.

00:17:37.700 But I think just racially aware is, can be a very difficult thing to cope with because you suddenly are doing that old thing about going, well, where are you from?

00:17:47.420 Not, can you act?

00:17:48.540 I think it's more important that

00:17:50.940 being

00:17:52.640 identitarian about things is dangerous

00:17:54.640 because you start going I wonder why they hired 0.98

00:17:56.840 that black actor

00:17:57.500 or I wonder why they hired that white actor 0.79

00:18:00.340 and it's like well

00:18:02.640 who cares what colour they are 1.00

00:18:04.660 I think we were much more colour blind actually

00:18:06.760 in the past

00:18:08.820 than we are now because you know again

00:18:10.740 Twitter everyone just rages

00:18:12.260 the minute anything happens and it's

00:18:14.820 mobbing isn't it and it's sort of like

00:18:16.640 stop it you're ruining fun for me and i'm sure i'll get nailed for it as well because i'll 0.98

00:18:22.060 someone will come when they see me in my new job hence the stupid hair they'll go um why didn't 0.97

00:18:26.820 they get uh there's plenty of working class actors who are better at doing that and i'm like yeah but 0.94

00:18:31.180 at the end of the day did they want me to do it was i convincing in my audition if they don't give

00:18:36.880 me the job and then they go down the identity pathway and they give it to the person they like

00:18:41.580 second best, who is from Manchester, then no one wins.

00:18:45.840 I lose out on paying my kids ridiculously large school fees.

00:18:49.560 And he walks into the job going, I'm not, I was second choice.

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00:19:22.600 and we'll wait i mean scarlett johansson is someone who's had a phenomenal amount of abuse 0.99

00:19:30.100 online and she says like you know i can play whoever i want i want to if i want to play a

00:19:34.660 trans character i'll play a trans character and the level of abuse that she has been directed

00:19:39.240 her in fact i think she apologized didn't she she apologized never apologize apologizing is of huge

00:19:45.700 mistakes why you've got so many powerful you've got all of the the trumpies and the and the

00:19:50.440 borises because they don't apologize they double down every time and you know that's sad that

00:19:55.280 you're growing up in a world where the only way you're encouraged to thrive is by saying i'm not 0.99

00:19:59.240 going to apologize i'm not taking any responsibility for it fuck you so but that's a way of dealing 0.99

00:20:04.160 with it i would that would be my way of dealing with it see this is where the problem comes in 0.99

00:20:07.760 because you're talking about progressing as a human being.

00:20:10.960 We're all a work in progress.

00:20:13.480 We're all evolving.

00:20:14.520 But you can't evolve if you never accept your own mistakes.

00:20:17.460 But you can't accept your mistakes in public

00:20:20.360 because if you do, that's it.

00:20:22.380 You're over.

00:20:23.460 So the lack of forgiveness is what creates this thing

00:20:27.400 where the only people who can thrive in this environment

00:20:30.280 are people like Donald Trump and Boris Johnson

00:20:32.080 who double down, as you say, right?

00:20:34.080 Is it a problem that we don't seem to do forgiveness anymore?

00:20:37.760 Well, I was raised in a very Christian household, and I really rebelled against it. 1.00

00:20:42.020 So I'd turn up to my mom and dad's Bible studies, Mashed, and walk in and go, like, you're all wankers. 0.97

00:20:48.280 And I was very rebellious. 0.93

00:20:50.160 But actually, we were raised with this constant idea of the fact that there was repentance and there was forgiveness.

00:20:56.180 But that was done, you know, through prayer and these things.

00:20:59.680 And actually, I mean, I don't know where I sit in my faith nowadays.

00:21:02.420 But I certainly believe that, at the very least, that's 40,000, 50,000 years' worth of stories being passed generation to generation about what is going to keep a society cohesive and stop people massacring each other.

00:21:15.120 And that's crucial.

00:21:16.420 But now there is no forgiveness. 0.98

00:21:19.360 We're screwed.

00:21:20.240 And Douglas Murray, again, is right when he says, you know, you're going around in these circles of theology, but there's no out. 0.97

00:21:26.520 So you can't get out through forgiveness.

00:21:28.660 So what happens is the judgment and all of that just escalates and escalates and escalates.

00:21:32.480 It's awful and people are terrified of doing anything.

00:21:35.000 So now, you know, you've got your you end up with this vast hypocrisy that we all have to put up with from, you know, Prince Harry to, you know, that guy on the top of the train at Canning Town, you know, lecturing someone in his sort of weird middle class way, lecturing a bunch of people that want to get to work on an electric train and feeling justified to do it.

00:21:57.960 And, you know, your everyday person sits there and goes, 0.99

00:22:01.500 I'm not going to engage with this shit because it's crazy. 0.99

00:22:05.000 Well, as if London transport needed to be made any worse for people. 0.99

00:22:09.960 And the place to do it as well is not Canning Town.

00:22:13.340 I mean, if you want to fight, that's a great place to do it.

00:22:16.160 But you can tell the person who decided to do that had never been to Canning Town before.

00:22:20.020 And probably didn't like the guy they got to volunteer for it.

00:22:22.800 Are you good for that, Giles?

00:22:25.060 Tube station, Canning Town, Giles?

00:22:27.360 Crispin?

00:22:27.960 sign you up

00:22:30.040 do you want the glue

00:22:30.960 bless them

00:22:32.440 yeah I know

00:22:33.320 and you know

00:22:33.800 that going in here

00:22:34.440 I thought yeah

00:22:34.800 they'll be on board

00:22:35.560 yeah

00:22:36.140 but it's not

00:22:36.640 I mean I got off

00:22:37.500 I get out of

00:22:38.260 I see on Instagram

00:22:39.740 and stuff

00:22:40.320 pictures of

00:22:41.040 my mates

00:22:41.980 ish

00:22:43.040 going

00:22:43.760 walking through

00:22:44.380 the Extinction Rebellion

00:22:45.380 things

00:22:45.720 and I'm like

00:22:46.160 dude you've just

00:22:47.080 got back from

00:22:47.840 Lime Regis

00:22:48.580 your second house

00:22:50.240 in your G63 AMG 1.00

00:22:52.860 so you killed 0.90

00:22:54.020 50 penguins

00:22:54.960 just getting here

00:22:55.960 yeah

00:22:57.060 But are they problematic penguins?

00:22:58.920 They were bad.

00:23:00.180 They were spirit penguins.

00:23:03.420 But what do you think about that, the hypocrisy element of it?

00:23:06.840 Because people always say to you, you know,

00:23:08.720 well, you don't like in others what you see in yourself.

00:23:12.240 But I don't think I am. 0.98

00:23:13.560 I mean, we're all massively hypocritical. 0.94

00:23:15.080 But why do we tolerate the hypocrisy? 0.97

00:23:17.700 Why do we do it?

00:23:18.480 Why do we just go, okay, fine?

00:23:19.920 I think it's a weaponized virtue, isn't it?

00:23:22.860 It's it's like what you were talking about in the acting world and in the music world.

00:23:27.280 If you are not seen as being compassionate to the victims of Brett Kavanaugh, then you're automatically evil.

00:23:33.900 So you have to get on the right side because it's the right side.

00:23:37.760 But they're not victims. They're alleged victims. Right.

00:23:40.720 This is I mean, surely that's the whole point of and having personally been through a situation where I've been accused of something.

00:23:46.720 I was really grateful for the court system to examine it properly.

00:23:51.280 but it's like you can't call someone a victim it's an alleged victim and the way that the

00:23:55.780 language is just being driven in that in that way you know just even down to all the stuff the bbc

00:24:00.620 say about brexit and it's just like stop telling me about crashing out you don't know what's going

00:24:06.480 to happen i don't know what's going to happen no one knows what's going to happen probably not

00:24:10.080 much it won't be the end of the world can we move on now but this we're being weaponized words are

00:24:15.200 being weaponized and we're being you know it's that thing it's right or wrong it's not right

00:24:19.400 and left it's right or wrong i suppose or left and wrong left and wrong that's the name for the

00:24:26.220 next album that's a good name actually yeah left and wrong it's a good edinburgh show

00:24:31.260 i might think about that for next year yeah left and wrong uh i prefer to save space for the white 0.86

00:24:36.520 race for you everyone i'm talking to laughs at it apart from the people who looked at me and went

00:24:43.380 that sounds really bad in your accent anyway um but i think part of the reason is in fact i think

00:24:49.640 98 of the reason is the fact that we always act within our own interests and we always protect

00:24:55.480 ourselves and we think to ourselves if i stand out and if i say i disagree with this how is this

00:25:01.020 going to impact upon me and then when you look at someone you know you know someone tweets something

00:25:06.660 and then they lose commercial opportunities especially within your industry when i heard 0.99

00:25:11.600 you wanted to do this my first initial well my first thought was is he fucking nuts yeah 0.98

00:25:17.080 also i think you know i think it is hypocritical to believe what i believe and not say it yeah 0.97

00:25:24.900 that's so i so in my own war and hypocrisy but i was you know you have to it's important i think

00:25:32.060 a lot of people think this way which is just the desperate need for us to talk again and not to

00:25:38.320 destroy each other but don't most people want just to keep their head down and just have a life that

00:25:45.040 is essentially as free from conflict as possible i think that's why so you know it's like it's like

00:25:51.260 when you're with your children and what do you got two options you scream with them or negotiate

00:25:55.120 with them you know obviously you want to keep you want to keep things but when it's impacting

00:26:00.660 on your life do you know what i mean and you're being accused of things that you're you know

00:26:05.060 not guilty of for example not that i mean i don't have an opinion i'm sort of like most of people

00:26:10.180 generally i just don't have an opinion i didn't really particularly have an opinion on brexit

00:26:13.640 or anything like that i was like well if that's what you want to do go for it but then my opinion

00:26:18.000 post-brexit has become very strong i don't know i think it's i don't want to i think yeah people

00:26:24.400 want a quiet life but people also want an authentic life and we're depriving people of an authentic

00:26:28.940 life by depriving them of their authenticity by trying to that's such a good point that's such a

00:26:34.840 good point because i i think francis is right you're right that most people want to have an

00:26:39.540 easy life they've got kids to feed and work to go to with extinction rebellion stopping them

00:26:45.380 and whatever else right but people have those things but equally no one wants to feel that

00:26:51.120 they live in a world where they are not allowed to say things that they believe that are not

00:26:55.880 bad things to believe that are reasonable views about the world and this is kind of where i think

00:27:01.880 we are now with you say most people think this they do the majority of the country here in america 0.95

00:27:07.980 around the west absolutely do not buy into this woke bullshit it is a tyranny of a minority 0.99

00:27:13.660 it is a tyranny of the minority where does it come from it's i my feeling is it comes from the death 0.99

00:27:19.500 of God and it's you know I pray with my kids every night for example I just do and we because I find

00:27:26.500 it easier to go with them if they've had a bad dream or something I find it easier to go dear

00:27:32.800 God please will you look after my anxious thoughts and give them back to me in the morning whatever

00:27:35.740 just to pray it out away from ourselves rather than go here's a dream catcher deal with it

00:27:41.600 you know you're a you know you you can the answer for your bad dreams is within you it's like no

00:27:47.600 you can go you can reach out with it more and i think that we need that as people we need to

00:27:53.120 there's that great line in um interstellar when he says you know we all spend all our time looking

00:27:57.220 at the ground nowadays and no one looks at the stars we're born to look outwards and uh and

00:28:03.140 believe and have some spirituality uh about that and you know the people that suffer a lot nowadays

00:28:10.020 seem to have nothing they they're constantly being told the answers within you the answers

00:28:14.040 within you but it isn't always it's between us you know and there's a good bit in the bible

00:28:18.200 actually i've sounded like a total religious freak but there's a good bit in the bible where

00:28:22.500 it says um that god is there in gatherings of more than two i think so it's like you know that

00:28:31.040 it sits in the middle between two people rather than you know i'm right you're right there's

00:28:36.140 something beyond us where we have to reach out and fill the void fill that gap with you know our

00:28:41.700 where we don't understand, where we listen to others.

00:28:45.500 Do you think part of it is guilt as well,

00:28:47.260 that we know that we've got it good,

00:28:49.180 and you know that we live very comfortable lives

00:28:52.320 compared to the vast majority of people?

00:28:54.500 That's quite interesting, guilt. 0.98

00:28:56.440 We had to invent something to be fucked off about. 0.99

00:28:58.800 Yeah. 0.99

00:28:59.180 Yeah, my brother just got back from Palestine.

00:29:02.480 And is it Palestine? I don't think it is. Israel. 0.92

00:29:04.740 Whoever runs that part of the world, and he got off the plane.

00:29:08.020 There's a bit of a dispute about it.

00:29:11.700 And I said to him, how was the trip?

00:29:14.920 And he said, we're so lucky where we live, Loz.

00:29:18.200 He said, we're so lucky where we live.

00:29:19.640 And I do, I often find it interesting when, you know, you hang out with a young feminist. 1.00

00:29:23.400 You do say, you know, you can always nip over to Saudi Arabia and have a little protest there if you want to.

00:29:31.200 But no, it's really difficult because the patriarchy is too hard here.

00:29:34.420 It needs smashing here first and then we'll move on to China and the Middle East afterwards. 0.97

00:29:40.820 Well, it's like a computer game.

00:29:42.020 You've got to do level one first.

00:29:44.020 But it is quite interesting as well,

00:29:45.980 because there's quite a lot of sensible stuff to it.

00:29:48.140 We don't want to invade other people's cultures 1.00

00:29:50.020 with our own opinions.

00:29:51.220 I think it's wrong to turn up and have Boris's opinions

00:29:55.240 on whether someone should, what they should and shouldn't wear.

00:29:59.080 So I think it is good not to try and colonialise things,

00:30:02.720 but it's happened now.

00:30:04.740 So what are we going to do?

00:30:06.460 Are we going to shoot ourselves down

00:30:08.080 for the sins of our forebears?

00:30:10.540 I don't know.

00:30:11.000 What do you think? 0.98

00:30:11.760 Well, this is a kind of sins of the father bullshit, really, isn't it? 0.94

00:30:14.940 And the thing that I think the reason we do the show is that both of us have an experience of life outside the comfortable, privileged West. 0.97

00:30:24.160 You know, I grew up in Russia.

00:30:25.480 France has spent quite a lot of time in Venezuela.

00:30:27.440 Once you've seen a bit more of the world, you kind of get a sense that, number one, this is quite an unusual thing that we have here.

00:30:35.260 But the other thing about it is, well, you think that if this country hadn't done so well historically, you think the people that we beat in that competition, in that race for success, you think they would have done things differently?

00:30:47.780 You think that, let's say, the Muslim world, if it hadn't retreated back to its borders and it continued to expand throughout medieval Europe, you think they wouldn't have had slaves? 0.98

00:30:58.380 Yeah.

00:30:58.740 You think they wouldn't have done that?

00:31:00.000 I mean, it's just the fact that we were successful.

00:31:03.580 Western civilization triumphed in the battle of civilizations.

00:31:07.600 Why should you feel guilty about something that people seven generations behind you did?

00:31:13.840 There is that concept of when someone does something wrong,

00:31:17.820 you know, say someone attacks my brother in the street and scars his face or whatever,

00:31:22.860 then, you know, it's just and right that myself and the rest of my family should be upset and angry about it.

00:31:30.000 But five generations on, it's just spiteful, isn't it?

00:31:34.220 If my great-great-great-grandson is still really pissed off that my brother got attacked, it's just spiteful.

00:31:39.740 Forgiveness is a cycle of time as well.

00:31:41.900 So this kind of sudden deliverance of all of our history in one fell swoop.

00:31:46.880 You know, and you've got kids protesting, well, young students trying to take down statues and Cecil Rhodes and all that stuff.

00:31:54.080 It's like, why is that your job to do that?

00:31:57.320 because, you know, if you're not careful, in a few generations they'll be putting him back up

00:32:02.420 and stringing you a lot up. It's intolerant and it's vile, I think.

00:32:07.600 And do you not think as well activism is part of the fact that they want to achieve these small goals

00:32:12.280 because, in a sense, again, it's achievable, whereas big things, like, for instance, a housing crisis or whatever else,

00:32:19.760 for young people there's a sense of hopelessness around it.

00:32:22.580 Well, isn't there a Jewish story about the guy who goes to the rabbi and says, I want to change the world, and he goes, good luck and all that, and he can't change the world, and he goes back and says, well, try and change the town, and then it all goes back to try and change yourself, or try and at least work on yourself. 0.67

00:32:36.680 Definitely.

00:32:38.000 But that's a personal responsibility thing, and we're not encouraged in personal responsibility. 0.96

00:32:42.640 We're told now that we live in a vile, horrible, patriarchal system run by oppressive white men, and we need to overload the whole thing in five minutes. 0.91

00:32:51.400 and I'm like, okay, this might not end well. 0.82

00:32:57.660 Okay, now here's a question for you.

00:33:00.620 So how much responsibility does Hollywood have to take?

00:33:03.580 Because they are, I wouldn't even say knee deep, 1.00

00:33:06.520 they are eyeball deep in this shit. 1.00

00:33:09.340 Well, the irony is for most, I mean, look, 1.00

00:33:12.180 this is a controversial thing to say,

00:33:13.920 but I think most male actors would understand it,

00:33:16.320 is most guys get into acting to do sex scenes with girls.

00:33:21.060 Really?

00:33:21.400 I think so.

00:33:22.400 Is that why you wanted to be an actor?

00:33:23.900 No, I love the craft, mate.

00:33:27.220 It's their total reason.

00:33:29.280 It's definitely one of the reasons.

00:33:31.760 And, you know, Hollywood is mired in casting couch. 0.69

00:33:35.200 And, you know, in theatre there's a whole thing about touring

00:33:39.460 when you've got Landlady Does, Landlady's Daughter Does, 1.00

00:33:42.380 LDDs, you know, in the bottom of guest books and stuff.

00:33:45.540 The whole thing is about shacking at the end of the day.

00:33:48.360 And now Hollywood has tried to go, no, it's not.

00:33:51.400 because, you know, it's been outed.

00:33:55.460 But I think we're guilty, I don't know,

00:33:57.940 you watch the films, watch Walter Mitty and something like that,

00:34:01.620 the original Walter Mitty and all that,

00:34:03.120 and see how powerful and strong those female characters are 1.00

00:34:05.560 and how you get a sort of sense of what the culture was like.

00:34:08.740 And now watch a Hollywood film of which I find it quite tricky

00:34:12.060 unless, you know, I'm dragged to watch one.

00:34:14.680 And none of it has any chemistry.

00:34:16.900 You're really lacking chemistry because everyone's sort of stuck in a kind of,

00:34:20.000 no this is as the woman in this i'm going to be like this and as the man in this i'm going to be

00:34:25.180 like this people are constantly trying to second guess themselves i think films are better when

00:34:30.200 they're you know when they're made by talented people who aren't trying to make a point or

00:34:35.940 they're trying to make a decent political point like the joker or something like that which is

00:34:39.460 the film the last film i could be bothered to watch did you watch it yeah what do you think of

00:34:43.740 it stunning brilliant movie but it's so nice the most interesting is the response to it from the

00:34:49.160 twatter going they're antifa or they're this or they're that and it's like no it's just a story

00:34:55.460 and it's beautifully told and extremely dark and they're bringing fairy tales up and giving them

00:35:01.420 to adults you know it michael keaton's batman may not age that well i don't think it has aged that

00:35:07.160 well has it so you know it's just become an adult adult based thing yeah hollywood's hypocritical

00:35:13.360 we all are oh absolutely i mean it started off with orgies and grease didn't it it was that's 0.94

00:35:18.860 how it all started the theatre people banging each other uh yeah my girlfriend's great yeah

00:35:24.660 she's not into that anyway sadly that was a bit of a breakdown there

00:35:32.160 having said that have you noticed a real difference in the industry between post me

00:35:43.540 to and pre me too was it like a sizable change it depends on the person when i do um when i do

00:35:49.760 sex scenes or anything with somebody i i i'm just out of pure natural like politeness generally i

00:35:55.920 go what are you cool with this you know what what is there anything you don't want to do and we talk

00:36:01.020 it through because it's also a deeply unsexy thing to do a sex scene weirdly but now you get an

00:36:06.140 intimacy coordinator at work what's that if you have to do a sex scene you get an intimacy

00:36:11.000 coordinator what do they do they coordinate your intimacy how do they do that they they talk you

00:36:16.580 through it i mean i haven't there's someone who can teach you do you work privately

00:36:23.080 you gotta rub here for three minutes it's very serious but it's again that's a tricky thing

00:36:30.800 isn't it you know intimacy is a tricky thing how do you get qualified to be in i'd love it if it

00:36:35.140 was a russian you must rub for three minutes it's a it's a five-week course but you can

00:36:39.280 In two weeks, I'm qualifying as we speak.

00:36:42.240 Yes, lovely.

00:36:43.460 I'd be a terrible intimacy coordinator.

00:36:46.040 So that is, and that I presume is done legally

00:36:49.980 so that if there is any pushback on the studio,

00:36:53.120 they go, hang on, we hired this particular person

00:36:55.440 and then everything was...

00:36:57.320 Everything went fine.

00:36:58.220 But also, where's the barrier between,

00:37:03.060 I mean, obviously, like I'm saying,

00:37:04.700 it was very easy for me to work with a woman

00:37:06.500 or in some cases a man

00:37:08.140 and do intimacy stuff because I'm like, you all right with them?

00:37:11.180 No, okay, you know, and you chat it through and then it's not a shock.

00:37:14.500 But if you've got, I don't know, you kind of also you want a bit of a free song,

00:37:19.040 even if it's pretend because otherwise you'll just spot it.

00:37:22.560 It'll look very mechanical.

00:37:24.240 We don't know.

00:37:25.060 That's the problem.

00:37:25.780 I think we just don't know how there's obviously a problem between men and women

00:37:30.200 and how we are engaging.

00:37:32.420 I don't happen to think it's all men.

00:37:34.520 I think it's probably a small minority of men like most things. 0.92

00:37:37.620 It's like there's a small minority of very nasty women who do their bit. 1.00

00:37:42.200 But we're allowing the minority to dominate the general conversation 0.96

00:37:46.020 by trying to obliterate everything and normalize everything

00:37:49.940 and turn everything into one note so that we're all the same.

00:37:54.600 It's a quality of outcome, isn't it?

00:37:57.020 That's what they're after.

00:37:57.800 Well, in the interest of balance, I think it probably is important to say

00:38:00.200 that people like Harvey Weinstein, what they're alleged to have done is horrific.

00:38:05.300 and none of us would condone that

00:38:07.940 and I think it's fair to say

00:38:09.800 that has been a problem in that environment

00:38:12.140 where you have these massive power disparities

00:38:14.200 and lots of people want to be actors

00:38:15.920 just like lots of people want to be comedians

00:38:17.560 and if there is beautiful women and powerful men 1.00

00:38:20.460 and the power disparity

00:38:21.660 that will often result in that kind of situation

00:38:24.760 but again as you say it's a minority

00:38:26.140 I know somebody

00:38:29.060 who's been in that situation

00:38:30.780 and they knew exactly what was happening

00:38:32.780 really quickly and they got out of it

00:38:34.200 you know

00:38:34.960 so it's horrific

00:38:36.800 and it's totally wrong

00:38:37.780 and I hope anyone

00:38:38.520 who does that

00:38:39.100 the full weight

00:38:40.360 of the law

00:38:41.180 comes down

00:38:41.760 right on top of them

00:38:42.700 but again

00:38:43.740 there are people

00:38:44.700 that aren't doing that

00:38:45.560 that are

00:38:46.720 you know

00:38:47.540 that there is a chemistry

00:38:48.900 between people

00:38:49.740 you know you do

00:38:50.460 you have chemistry

00:38:51.060 between people

00:38:51.760 all the time

00:38:52.400 and we're trying

00:38:53.160 to obliterate that

00:38:54.160 and I think it's bad

00:38:55.560 and I'll obviously 0.86

00:38:56.180 be shot down

00:38:56.820 for saying that

00:38:57.360 because it just

00:38:57.900 makes sense

00:38:58.660 mate the more

00:38:59.440 you get shot down

00:39:00.140 in this interview

00:39:00.640 the better it is

00:39:01.240 for you

00:39:01.580 I don't care

00:39:03.700 I'm bored

00:39:04.460 you know it's difficult

00:39:05.380 but one thing

00:39:06.400 that always

00:39:07.100 again

00:39:08.160 why does it surprise me

00:39:09.800 it's Hollywood

00:39:10.260 but just 0.97

00:39:11.560 the sheer hypocrisy

00:39:13.180 of going back

00:39:14.140 to the Weinstein situation

00:39:15.440 where you have

00:39:16.040 all these people

00:39:16.680 coming out and going

00:39:17.320 what he did 0.95

00:39:18.160 was disgusting and awful 0.91

00:39:19.060 and of course 0.53

00:39:19.780 it is and it was

00:39:20.820 but then you saw

00:39:21.760 the pictures of them

00:39:22.740 in the award ceremonies

00:39:24.300 big placid grins

00:39:26.100 on their faces

00:39:26.760 arms around them

00:39:28.060 and you're like

00:39:28.460 you're telling me

00:39:29.100 you didn't know

00:39:29.960 two years ago

00:39:31.360 but now you've suddenly

00:39:33.180 And God forbid, are there people that have condemned people like that

00:39:38.080 and quietly got where they wanted to get?

00:39:42.580 Do those people exist that have kept themselves quite quiet

00:39:47.320 and climbed the ladder that way?

00:39:49.120 I'm certain there are in the same way.

00:39:53.360 It's the invisibility. 0.82

00:39:56.420 It's the kind of impunity people have to their own ridiculousness. 0.62

00:40:00.220 But showbiz is particularly bad that way.

00:40:02.660 But all forms of elitism is bad that way.

00:40:05.780 You know, it's ridiculous watching Harry have a little sob about his, you know, only having to have two kids and how awful it is.

00:40:12.880 And you start thinking, hang on a minute.

00:40:16.060 This is about people going on holiday on EasyJet, isn't it?

00:40:20.080 That's what it's about.

00:40:22.440 They're ruining your view from your nice hotel that you can afford.

00:40:27.180 That's what it is.

00:40:28.300 It's not so much that you want to save the climate.

00:40:30.080 it's that you don't want other people to be able to have what you can have and that's what bothers

00:40:34.200 me and i think it's the same with with um you know hollywood people saying it's appalling it's

00:40:39.240 appalling it's appalling but of course i was his friend but i didn't know then you know it's like

00:40:43.880 yeah really did any of you know i'm reading a book which i mentioned to you about a guy who

00:40:50.120 used to be on the far right and is now fighting the far right and one of the things he talks about

00:40:54.380 is that he believes one of the radicalizing elements

00:40:58.400 that is really driving young men into the far right

00:41:02.540 is a sense that men are under attack in society.

00:41:07.280 And you've alluded to elements of that.

00:41:09.700 Is that something that resonates with you?

00:41:11.640 I mean, I watch Hollywood movies or even adverts,

00:41:15.300 and it's just relentless from what I can see.

00:41:17.560 Well, it's this idea that masculinity is bad and in some way toxic.

00:41:21.820 And it's like, no, A, it's not about gender.

00:41:25.260 The toxicity and bad behavior has got nothing to do with gender. 0.90

00:41:28.200 So why we suddenly do it?

00:41:30.120 But why attack men?

00:41:32.480 Especially men that died in, you know, the sort of gender death gap in war is pretty terrific, isn't it? 1.00

00:41:39.640 And men have a place.

00:41:42.060 And the problem is also, like anything, if you stop men being men, what will happen is it will just go underground.

00:41:46.840 And then when men come back, they will come back waving their Nazi banners and their Charlottesville madness.

00:41:53.100 You know, I think it's, I celebrate in my own kids, much to the chagrin of almost everybody, you know, your boys is good.

00:42:00.300 You know, if you want to win, win.

00:42:01.760 I mean, I don't know why we want to attack it.

00:42:04.980 I think because we don't fit into the system properly if you've got competitive men.

00:42:09.200 If you've got men that want to protect women, for example, you know, you take that away.

00:42:13.920 I noticed my Instagram threw up a Gillette advert recently.

00:42:17.520 They've changed their tune, haven't they?

00:42:20.500 Well, it only took about $8 billion in losses,

00:42:23.080 and they suddenly, they're back on men's side, apparently.

00:42:25.760 But a good combination between a man and a woman, 0.98

00:42:28.120 or a man and a man, or whatever it is that we have nowadays.

00:42:30.660 But a good relationship is an empowering relationship

00:42:33.000 where you empower the other person,

00:42:34.960 and you draw out their skills.

00:42:36.440 You know, if there's a fire in my mum and dad's house,

00:42:39.500 I would go to my mum.

00:42:40.920 um it was you know there are roles people have roles not to say they're better or worse at

00:42:47.800 anything but we yeah we're trying to squash boys i think they squash boys in schools don't they and

00:42:52.340 you know suicide is pretty dreadful within men i know a lot of men that are really suffering and

00:42:57.680 then i saw um julia what's her name from veep who i really respect the other day talking about you

00:43:02.620 know men having so much more rights than women and like are we talking about imaginary rights 0.97

00:43:06.640 in your head or are we talking about actual rights because you have to tell me what those are

00:43:11.120 because there's a lot of young people that support you and basically you're teaching them to be

00:43:15.820 victims why would you do that that point you made is really important where it's not about the facts

00:43:22.240 it's about the narrative yeah and we have to adhere to the narrative because if we stray away

00:43:27.580 from the narrative we become problematic you're a men's rights activist yeah meninist i accidentally

00:43:34.420 wore a meninist jumper to a thing once and they were like are you a meninist and i'm like no my

00:43:38.980 friend gave it to me because he thinks i'm a twat i don't know why why we do it why do we do it what's

00:43:45.580 the point why do we need to shut men up especially you know what is perceived this it's very clever

00:43:50.740 really to turn around because if you make it about race and gender you're automatically on the back

00:43:55.640 foot just by the color of your skin and the what you've got between your legs you're already 0.51

00:44:00.500 apologizing which is a really bad place to be why would you want to do that it doesn't happen in

00:44:06.080 right hand well the other thing with men as well is if you want men to be better you need to give 0.99

00:44:10.720 them positive role models instead of criticizing them and making them look like idiots which is 0.98

00:44:16.160 what all the advertising does which is what a lot of these movies do with gillette you brought up 0.99

00:44:21.080 they didn't go he is a positive way for a man to be they just went men do this men do that men do

00:44:27.140 men about. And then you'll get a girl. I've had this. I've had a big falling out with a girl who

00:44:31.700 said, you need to be told this stuff. And I'm like, what do I tell you to do? Like, do we sit

00:44:36.880 down and I tell you what to do? No, it's not your job to tell me what. I'm not him. You're stereotyping

00:44:41.980 men. But it's amazing because someone would have sat down in a meeting and gone, this is my idea

00:44:46.920 and it's really good. And they would have gone, brilliant, great. And then they would have shot

00:44:50.260 the video and everyone's like, brilliant, it's wonderful. And you know, aren't we progressive?

00:44:54.120 and then they would have got their profit reports and gone,

00:44:57.100 you told us this was going to work.

00:44:59.380 And then it's like back to guys with their tops off

00:45:02.140 with slightly nice bodies shaving in the sea.

00:45:05.120 That's what I was raised on.

00:45:06.940 Yeah, it gave us something to aspire to.

00:45:09.420 But the thing is about the Gillette advert that I found very funny

00:45:13.740 is that it talked about toxic masculinity and it showed bullying.

00:45:16.680 And I was a teacher for 11 years

00:45:18.220 and my girlfriend went to an all-girls school

00:45:20.380 and I remember showing my girlfriend the advert.

00:45:22.640 She was just like, what we did at girls' school is three billion times worse than that.

00:45:27.700 Because what we did was we went, we didn't beat someone up.

00:45:30.680 We destroyed them from the inside in.

00:45:32.940 I bet.

00:45:33.740 Yeah, just like dry rot and dragging them down.

00:45:36.020 I'm like, okay.

00:45:36.900 I know, Steve, but you...

00:45:37.920 I liked your girlfriend until this conversation.

00:45:41.060 You were a product of being bullied.

00:45:42.980 Yeah.

00:45:43.540 That's what you're made.

00:45:44.740 You're made by your experiences.

00:45:46.400 You know, I'm sure I've bullied people in my life.

00:45:48.280 I certainly was bullied at school.

00:45:49.780 But, you know, it was, you're a product of that without the experience.

00:45:54.320 What do you want to do?

00:45:55.240 Just march everybody gently through life and tell them that there's no problems.

00:45:59.080 I think maybe that's half the reason why everyone gets upset about hate speech

00:46:01.960 because no one's actually shouted at them and told them off.

00:46:04.580 Yeah.

00:46:05.040 Do you know what I mean?

00:46:06.060 It's all right.

00:46:07.120 My dad was pretty hard with us, but I would get on my house on fire with him now.

00:46:10.680 But he's still my dad.

00:46:12.120 My sons go to me, who's scarier, you or Jimbo, who's my dad?

00:46:16.580 And I go, Jimbo.

00:46:17.420 And then I'm still like that.

00:46:19.280 He's 80, and I'm still like, you know, there's no harm in that to me.

00:46:23.300 No, absolutely not.

00:46:24.400 I don't want my kids throwing food across the table at each other.

00:46:27.660 It's like no one's going to invite you to dinner.

00:46:29.160 Behave, sit up properly, and eat well.

00:46:31.860 It's like, oh, Nazi. 0.83

00:46:34.460 Sorry, it's just what I was raised with, and it feels correct. 0.91

00:46:37.900 But boys need discipline.

00:46:39.620 I mean, I think everybody needs discipline,

00:46:41.440 but boys in particular because of testosterone and all the rest of it,

00:46:44.480 we're just different.

00:46:45.220 So what do you try to do as a father of two boys

00:46:48.080 to kind of counteract some of these things?

00:46:50.360 I mean, patience mainly,

00:46:53.100 but I've drawn some pretty strong red lines.

00:46:56.000 But then I did try,

00:46:57.400 oh God, I'm going to confess that.

00:46:58.460 Around Poland mainly.

00:47:00.600 Strong lines around the state land.

00:47:03.940 I said to my son was getting,

00:47:07.680 one of my sons was getting bullied at school

00:47:09.980 and I said, smack him back. 0.99

00:47:12.460 Yeah.

00:47:12.980 And I said, he said, wow.

00:47:14.680 And I went through this really careful thing.

00:47:16.520 I was like, just don't, never hit someone first, only hit them on the arm, but just smack him back.

00:47:22.000 Genius, I thought, best bit of dadding in the world.

00:47:25.000 Call from school next day, dead two birds before, just after reception.

00:47:31.560 I was like, okay, we need to re-look at this.

00:47:34.800 But I think that it's a sense of, men are quite powerful, isn't there?

00:47:38.780 There's an imposing thing of violence between men, often, isn't there?

00:47:42.560 And we square up to each other, especially when we're younger.

00:47:45.180 I mean, I don't do it now.

00:47:46.520 But it's great also that violence has become intolerant.

00:47:49.440 We're very intolerant of violence, which is a great thing.

00:47:51.740 So if you've got one of your mates who's a bit bruisey on a Saturday night out,

00:47:55.120 he's now less likely to start throwing punches.

00:47:58.060 But you do have to moderate that testosterone.

00:48:01.240 Even, you know, even in young kids.

00:48:03.580 I mean, I try and make myself the enemy to my kids.

00:48:06.880 So when they're getting bruise-ish, I make me the enemy.

00:48:10.560 Me the problem, not each other.

00:48:12.420 So if they're coming up against something, they'll be coming up against me.

00:48:14.820 and they know pretty clearly where my red lines are which are you know behave because i like it

00:48:22.060 when they go to other people's houses and they're nice and i go around and i'll see some friends

00:48:26.280 and i go god your kids are doing so well isn't it brilliant you know and if they turn up and

00:48:31.620 they're lying down at the table throwing food against at each other i get a bit pissed off

00:48:35.680 for them to be fair and i don't think there's anything wrong with it it's not child abuse

00:48:39.260 though is it at the end of the day and do you sometimes feel there's a conflict between

00:48:42.840 they're what they're being spoon fed at school and what you're teaching them it's almost like

00:48:46.580 you have to take out the roots before they're really set in depends on the school doesn't it

00:48:50.940 you know you get some schools that have i think manners is a really really good place to start

00:48:55.760 and also you know if you're looking for equality of you're looking for your kids have the best 0.93

00:49:01.580 chance in life the best thing you can teach your kid is that it however clever or stupid or brilliant 0.81

00:49:07.600 or terrible they are at something the one thing that they can be in charge of is how they treat

00:49:12.200 people and i only have only got jobs up until this when i'm never going to work again from

00:49:18.220 being myself and being charming and listening and caring what other people think genuinely and

00:49:23.380 that's taught you don't you don't accidentally become well-mannered you you're taught it by

00:49:29.100 somebody and in my case i was taught it by my dad and my mom and um you know their methods nowadays

00:49:34.300 would probably be seen as you know hard too hard but it worked on me i haven't decked someone in

00:49:41.820 ears and where do you stand on because it seems that we talk about men's mental health more than

00:49:52.160 ever and a lot of this i think is positive my father had depression anxiety all the rest of it

00:49:58.840 but i think how much of constantly focusing on this sort of you know the intersectional systems

00:50:07.060 being woke constantly checking yourself if i say this thing is this problematic if i say this thing

00:50:12.080 i've just said word black in the sentence should i've said the word without color well it's what

00:50:16.080 it's dreadful isn't it but also because social media kills it my a friend of mine very early on

00:50:20.600 when i got into twitter before i started really annoying people which i do on a daily basis

00:50:23.880 said to me just don't tweet anything that you wouldn't have on an advertising hoarding opposite

00:50:28.920 at your mum's house and i thought that's a good rule but yes being very aware of of what we're

00:50:37.320 doing all the time is is awful for but also come on man we're everyone is quite depressed like i'm

00:50:43.320 sorry i've not met a single person that isn't depressed scratch a couple of little bits into 0.68

00:50:47.780 a conversation and no one's going to tell you you know what i'm just fucking thrilled i don't meet 0.89

00:50:53.880 many people like that i meet people with a lot of problems don't you what's your experience i mean

00:50:58.320 know i've got some friends who are genuinely quite happy but i think most people are suffering in a

00:51:03.260 lot you know or or like jordan peaton says you know two two levels removed from some quite serious

00:51:09.780 suffering so but that's something that we can use to bring ourselves together instead of like going

00:51:14.520 well my sort of depression is this sort of depression um and your sort of depression is

00:51:18.940 that sort of depression it's like no it's the human condition it's quite depressing we don't

00:51:22.440 have an answer to it um dividing each other is going to cause mayhem and you know there's a fight

00:51:28.860 coming at the end of the day if if we carry on doing it i sense i think on the depression thing

00:51:34.140 i've probably never been happier than since we started doing the show because i feel like

00:51:39.540 i have a sense of purpose with what i'm doing and that is incredibly important i think particularly

00:51:44.960 for men yeah particularly for men uh so i think if you feel like i think there's a lot that can

00:51:51.040 be done. We had Dr. Linda Papadopoulos on the show a while back, and we were talking to her

00:51:55.940 about mental health quite a bit. And I feel like we sometimes forget that the impact of our actions

00:52:03.420 on our mental health is huge. If you eat right, exercise, do something you love, surround yourself

00:52:10.420 with people that you like, that you get on with, that understand you and you understand, and you

00:52:15.140 can have interesting empowering conversations with those people that will have a huge impact

00:52:21.260 on your mental health you know the best for you people that want the best for you you know but

00:52:24.800 that also comes as you get older as well and meaning is also i think meaning is quite important

00:52:30.760 you know this other thing that we're all talking about life doesn't mean anything you know because

00:52:34.920 that's the byproduct of all the intersectional post-modern thinking is just why do anything

00:52:40.140 If it's all a massive social construct and it's just all bollocks,

00:52:44.400 why do anything at all?

00:52:46.060 And meaning is, meaning you need to be slightly,

00:52:49.620 you need to have these little things like competitiveness and stuff like that

00:52:52.360 because that means something you want to get somewhere.

00:52:54.720 I want to get somewhere.

00:52:55.900 Like, you know, with music, for me, for example,

00:52:58.440 like, you know, if I'd stopped every time someone said, 0.93

00:53:00.500 stop it, you posh twat, go back to acting, we already pay you to act, 0.94

00:53:04.980 I would have stopped, but I don't. 0.99

00:53:07.020 I go, no, no, this gives me meaning.

00:53:10.160 This is what I like and I'm proud of this and it makes me feel good

00:53:13.520 because I'm expressing myself in a song rather than in two bottles of Jack Daniels

00:53:18.560 and some meaningless fight down wherever, you know.

00:53:22.500 So it is important.

00:53:24.200 We're getting rid of meaning.

00:53:25.580 We're saying nothing means anything.

00:53:27.520 Yeah, it does.

00:53:28.100 It really does.

00:53:29.700 And it's also as well saying to men that in a way it's going back to the religion thing.

00:53:34.280 being a man

00:53:35.140 being a straight white male

00:53:36.300 means that you have 0.88

00:53:37.020 original sin

00:53:37.820 I did it

00:53:39.120 did we do it

00:53:39.860 or didn't she do it 0.75

00:53:40.860 Eve

00:53:42.400 Eve did it 0.99

00:53:43.860 yeah

00:53:44.340 she ate the apple first

00:53:45.420 yeah

00:53:45.800 so I'd like to say

00:53:46.740 her sin 0.95

00:53:47.260 for a moment

00:53:48.520 I was wondering

00:53:49.340 who you're talking about

00:53:50.160 which better research

00:53:51.940 haven't I done

00:53:52.500 it turns out

00:53:52.900 it was the bible

00:53:53.360 Eve did it 0.99

00:53:55.940 but there's

00:53:56.760 there's a story

00:53:57.400 that they

00:53:57.760 I mean what's that

00:53:58.700 all about as well

00:53:59.640 because that

00:54:00.220 if I was a woman

00:54:01.080 I'd be pretty miffed

00:54:02.220 that that was what

00:54:03.020 was being taught

00:54:03.580 to the kids

00:54:04.040 The woman tempted the man. 0.87

00:54:06.400 It's mad, isn't it?

00:54:08.020 I don't know.

00:54:08.780 It's confusing me on a daily basis.

00:54:11.040 The meaning of finding your way through it, getting out the other side.

00:54:14.880 I think you're right about meaning.

00:54:17.440 If you don't have something meaningful in your life,

00:54:20.820 then it's going to be very difficult to feel happy about it.

00:54:24.180 Your meaning is going to be defined by imposing your power over somebody else.

00:54:29.520 Your power is defined in the levels of righteousness that you have over other people,

00:54:33.420 which is what virtue signalling is at the end of the day,

00:54:35.960 which is why you can't see any of your own hypocrisy.

00:54:38.820 So you don't understand. 0.89

00:54:40.840 I need to take the private jet in order to go there

00:54:44.400 so I can learn more about how to lecture you about how to live.

00:54:47.100 That's my meaning.

00:54:48.840 Whereas, you know, my meaning is,

00:54:51.420 I know everyone thinks actors are loaded, 0.98

00:54:53.060 but my meaning is don't be a dickhead to your kids as often. 0.91

00:54:57.620 You know, try and be as good to your kids as possible. 0.86

00:55:00.060 Teach them as well as you can

00:55:01.340 what you learned from your own dad and mum.

00:55:03.420 and if you can take them on a nice holiday once a year, twice a year,

00:55:07.360 and then they just want to get rid of the holiday.

00:55:09.040 It's like, no, I need to go and fight the German for the place by the pool. 1.00

00:55:14.540 You know, I need to do that.

00:55:16.000 That's what gives you meaning. 0.99

00:55:16.940 That's my fucking meaning. 0.99

00:55:17.940 What's your reenactment with towels? 0.99

00:55:19.960 I know.

00:55:20.760 Brexit means Brexit. 0.78

00:55:22.100 Brexit means Brexit. 0.78

00:55:24.240 That hasn't helped.

00:55:25.180 That really doesn't sound very good in your voice, mate.

00:55:27.720 It sounds authentic, though, doesn't it?

00:55:29.400 It does.

00:55:30.120 It does.

00:55:30.680 It sounds different.

00:55:31.360 But actually, I think meaning is exactly where social justice comes in, because we talked about it being a religion.

00:55:38.320 And, you know, you and I were talking before we started the interview.

00:55:41.040 Human beings, whatever you say, seem to have this void inside of ourselves that can only be filled by devoting yourself to something that is greater than you.

00:55:52.340 And as you say, the moment you take religion out of it, something else is going to come and fill that.

00:55:57.900 Well, the human. So at least God is something that you can relate to directly yourself that's outside of you.

00:56:06.380 Whereas if there is no God in your God, it's dangerous.

00:56:09.960 I mean, we just history is littered with people that have done that and it really doesn't turn out well.

00:56:16.660 So, you know, given the choice and given the option, I will pray with my kids at night and I will believe beyond myself because it stops me thinking,

00:56:25.860 you know what i kind of want to cut your head off at karcher senior living life isn't just about 0.63

00:56:31.940 living it's about living fully and embracing purposeful living engage in activities you love

00:56:36.980 build connections at last and enjoy wellness programs that nurture mind body and spirit

00:56:42.200 whether you're exploring new hobbies or giving back to others karcher senior living is a place

00:56:47.020 where you can truly thrive and pursue your purpose contact our team today to schedule your visit

00:56:52.260 Karcher Senior Living, where joy is just the beginning.

00:57:01.680 What I'm grateful for, for the listeners, is that Lawrence looked at France.

00:57:06.460 You're not going to do it to a Russian, are you?

00:57:08.460 Because the boys are going to come round.

00:57:10.440 He's going to help.

00:57:12.760 Yeah, he's going to slip to the T in beforehand, make me sleepy.

00:57:16.620 But where do we move from here, Lawrence?

00:57:18.520 Have we reached peak wank in the words of Rod Liddle,

00:57:20.740 or is there still plenty more wank to go?

00:57:23.100 I'm slightly concerned that it feels like there's a fight coming.

00:57:28.640 That's what I worry about.

00:57:30.520 That it feels like people are...

00:57:32.000 I think there's people jumping on top of each other in their speech

00:57:35.060 and all of that is already slightly picking for a fight.

00:57:39.200 I think there's a massive disparity in wealth, which is really bad.

00:57:43.960 So the combination of people living in some pretty horrific experiences

00:57:48.200 and being demonised at the same time,

00:57:50.740 You know, what happens when you've shat on your parent culture for that long?

00:57:56.800 Will people turn around and say, I've had enough?

00:57:59.420 I don't know.

00:58:00.100 What will happen?

00:58:01.080 I think there's going to be, you know, these two things can't coexist as they are.

00:58:05.920 So either we all talk like this and, you know, I will be savaged by whatever people want to savage me.

00:58:13.960 But I mean it.

00:58:14.800 It's in the spirit of conversation.

00:58:16.340 I'm not, at no point am I saying I'm right.

00:58:18.760 I'm just saying we need to talk.

00:58:20.320 or they're, you know, this very censorious, authoritarian, woke system

00:58:26.660 that's growing and growing and growing and growing

00:58:28.420 and now is, you know, unacceptable if you don't hold that belief,

00:58:32.380 especially in a lot of jobs nowadays.

00:58:34.240 You know, you're getting implicit bias training and stuff like that

00:58:37.600 forced on people now.

00:58:40.480 You might find that when the shoe is on the other foot,

00:58:44.820 that that foot comes kicking.

00:58:46.600 That's what I sense.

00:58:47.660 I mean, it just seems logical to me.

00:58:49.020 Well, it's that eternal thing is you either leave, talk, or fight.

00:58:53.000 It's one of those.

00:58:54.060 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:54.560 And most people aren't going to leave if you can't talk.

00:58:58.600 I think it was John F. Kennedy who said that those who make a peaceful revolution impossible will make a violent one inevitable.

00:59:05.160 There you go.

00:59:06.280 That's so true.

00:59:07.560 And that's why we do the show because…

00:59:10.460 We want a revolution.

00:59:11.960 You want a revolution.

00:59:12.520 Well, I think to some extent we want to create a space for people to talk

00:59:17.680 so that no revolution is necessary, so that things can be resolved by...

00:59:21.220 I mean, Francis mentioned the housing crisis.

00:59:23.360 It's a huge issue.

00:59:24.640 It's a huge issue, and there is no political will to resolve it at all.

00:59:28.240 Yeah, but it was pronouns day yesterday.

00:59:30.580 So, seriously, it was pronouns day yesterday.

00:59:34.580 Is there a national housing crisis year?

00:59:36.840 Yeah.

00:59:37.200 No.

00:59:37.480 No.

00:59:38.200 You know, these actual issues, real issues.

00:59:40.860 I mean, as I was saying to you earlier, my best mate is a prison officer.

00:59:44.100 We went to drama school together.

00:59:45.340 And he really is, you know, he suffers.

00:59:49.220 He doesn't have any money.

00:59:50.860 And he doesn't have a house. 0.98

00:59:52.300 You know, he's screwed. 0.94

00:59:53.500 I'm trying to buy a house at the moment. 0.99

00:59:55.040 I've been lucky in the years.

00:59:56.140 But even I'm going, what?

00:59:58.820 So, you know, this identity politics thing has replaced class, the actual real issue,

01:00:05.260 which is what you do with the working class and the massive divide between rich and poor.

01:00:09.280 That's just out the window now.

01:00:10.860 And they, them, he, her, she, it, ze, ze, it's just so much easier, isn't it?

01:00:16.500 It's like parking tickets and burglaries.

01:00:19.580 My house was robbed twice in four days, and I bought CCTV after the first one.

01:00:24.440 And I got the guys' faces and them with my children's iPads as they scooted out the door.

01:00:30.160 But there was no case because there wasn't enough evidence for the Crown Prosecution Service.

01:00:36.880 But every single time I go in a yellow box in the car, I get fined.

01:00:43.960 It's a crime solved, isn't it?

01:00:45.740 So it's just going, what's the easiest crime to solve?

01:00:48.180 So much easier to go.

01:00:48.960 Social justice.

01:00:49.660 Everyone, let's do social justice. 0.97

01:00:51.400 But, you know, let's have more food banks and more people living shitty lives. 0.54

01:00:57.280 But as long as they get their pronouns right, we'll be fine. 0.93

01:01:00.560 It's dodge, isn't it?

01:01:01.300 It's going to lead to something not fun.

01:01:03.040 I think you're right.

01:01:03.720 But talking about the real issues is the only way forward here.

01:01:07.720 Well, there's another way forward which we really don't want to...

01:01:09.940 But you guys do that, which is what's so good. 0.97

01:01:11.740 And also, you know, I think it's if you're going to put yourself on the line to be shat on,

01:01:16.180 then everybody else who has any sort of vague platform for anything that people are interested in 0.94

01:01:21.100 should also put themselves on the line to be shat on. 0.70

01:01:23.520 You know, so anyone who has a vague interest in me can now know that I am also a Nazi. 0.97

01:01:28.360 Well, welcome to the Third Reich. 0.98

01:01:30.400 before we let you go

01:01:32.460 our last question as you know always is

01:01:35.380 what's the one thing that no one is talking

01:01:37.460 about that we ought to be talking about

01:01:38.960 I think it's

01:01:41.260 men in the family court system

01:01:43.300 I think it's

01:01:45.140 I think men are having a very 1.00

01:01:47.380 very tough time if they don't have money

01:01:49.400 and they can't buy

01:01:51.100 very good

01:01:52.040 representation I think

01:01:54.860 you know there's a lot of suicide around it

01:01:57.040 and it's a

01:01:57.720 Yeah. It's a dodgy system, the family court system, because it's private and it's totally anonymous, so you can say whatever you want.

01:02:06.920 And I think men within the family court system and the way that we're supported and the fact that we need to look at family breakups as a 50-50 thing,

01:02:18.820 where we start together at 50-50 in the best interest of the children, I'd say.

01:02:22.920 That's, for me, the important one. Because people don't talk about it.

01:02:26.780 They don't.

01:02:27.720 if you enjoyed

01:02:29.460 our conversation

01:02:30.640 check out Lawrence's album

01:02:32.000 it's out now

01:02:32.760 we'll play you a clip

01:02:33.900 the full clip of his single

01:02:35.220 immediately after this

01:02:36.240 follow him on Twitter

01:02:37.380 and we'll put the links in below

01:02:38.960 and as always

01:02:39.660 follow us

01:02:40.200 we'll see you in a week's time

01:02:41.320 with another brilliant episode

01:02:42.500 take care guys

01:02:43.340 see you next week

01:02:57.720 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - November 10, 2019

Laurence Fox：＂They Seek to Murder Your Opinion＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

TRIGGERnometry - November 10, 2019

Laurence Fox： ＂They Seek to Murder Your Opinion＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Laurence Fox：＂They Seek to Murder Your Opinion＂