In this episode of Trigonometry, we have our first guest on the show, comedian and sex educator Lily Phillips. We talk about consenting to sex with consenting adults, sex on camera, and why she doesn t think it's controversial.
00:00:37.340You can see where I'm going with this, right?
00:00:41.640Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.
00:00:47.400The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans and Sweet Caroline.
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00:01:00.740The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.
00:01:03.560April 28th through June 7th, 2026, The Princess of Wales Theatre.
00:01:47.280So another thing I was going to say before we kind of get into the conversation is I don't think we've ever had as much pushback from people about an upcoming guest.
00:01:58.360Because people who are supporters of the show, they get notified of which guests are coming up.
00:02:03.760They get a chance to ask them questions on our sub stack.
00:02:08.460And like, it seems like the whole internet has melted down over the fact that you're coming on.
00:02:12.620So, and it was, I have to say, my experience is it's almost entirely women that are really upset about what you do and you coming on the show, et cetera.
00:05:54.480I think that's such a common misconception is that, you know, I'm damaged in some kind of way or have some kind of trauma.
00:06:01.660And I think it's because people just can't believe that a girl who has a good education, has a good family, you know, hasn't been through trauma, wants to have a lot of sex and wants to be a slut.
00:06:18.360Like, and wants to do porn and stuff like that.
00:06:20.340I think people just can't wrap their heads around it and people don't like to think that that could be true because they don't want it to happen to their daughter, you know.
00:06:28.520But you say it's a lot of sex, but there's a difference between having a lot of sex and an extreme act, which is, let's be fair, what this is, Lily.
00:06:36.660I mean, the thing is, I've always had these, I guess, if you want to call it extreme acts, like I've always, in university, before I did this for work, had a lot of sex with a lot of guys and girls, for that matter.
00:06:51.700But the act of recording it, the act of putting it out there, the act of monetizing it, that makes it something very different, doesn't it?
00:07:00.880I mean, for me, it was just an extension of what I was already doing.
00:07:05.140I love being creative and why not monetize off of it?
00:07:09.360If I'm doing it in my free time and I'm enjoying it, it's safe, it's consensual, why not monetize off of it?
00:07:14.120It's kind of like the perfect scenario, doing what you love and making money from it.
00:07:18.520It's interesting you say that because when you talk about it, I'm like, well, that's kind of, in some ways, that's what we do.
00:07:23.880Like, I was arguing with people online long before we started speaking on the street, right?
00:07:29.240So when you say that, it sort of makes sense.
00:07:31.500But I think it's quite difficult for people to wrap their heads around what you do, actually.
00:07:37.160And, you know, it's something I've been thinking about, knowing that we were going to interview, because I think a lot of people have that visceral reaction on the one hand.
00:07:44.820On the other hand, I think it's also fair to say that women like you, women like the way you describe yourself, let's say like that, have always existed throughout history.
00:07:53.520There have always been women who are not just hypersexual, but I think it's a trait called sociosexuality, which is about how many partners you're comfortable having.
00:08:02.620And perhaps exhibitionist, is that fair to say?
00:08:05.280Yeah, 100%. And just like attention whore, if you want to call me that, honestly.
00:08:09.120Right. So I've heard you talk about the fact that you enjoy what you do.
00:08:14.900Sorry to be so, like, I don't know why I'm apologizing to you.
00:08:19.020This is the first time I've ever seen a member of the girls.
00:08:21.400You can be as vulgar as you like, don't worry.
00:08:23.880Well, I guess what I'm actually genuinely getting at is, like, when you say you enjoy doing it, do you mean that you orgasm when you're having sex with these guys?
00:08:31.500I think I enjoy the act. I enjoy the performance. I love the fact that I'm getting other people off.
00:08:38.920It's more than just, like, orgasming to me.
00:08:42.940Mm-hmm. And one of the things you talked about as well is that, like, you've said that you would do, it's not about money for you, right?
00:08:53.760So correct me if I'm wrong, but you, when you first started, you weren't doing anything as kind of out there as what you're doing now.
00:09:00.280And you were still making 10, 12, 20 grand a month, right?
00:10:10.900Yeah, yeah. Like I'm sure for Michael, Michael Jordan, did you just say?
00:10:14.400I'm sure it wasn't about the money, because I bet when he, you know, got up to playing basketball full time that he was earning enough anyway.
00:10:22.700So what, you know, why take things over and keep working harder is just to be a legend in the game.
00:10:28.560I think the thing that people find very difficult, Lily, when we're having this discussion is you hear a number of ex-porn stars being interviewed.
00:10:35.500And a lot of them will say, look, I got into porn because I came from a damaged background.
00:10:41.620I was sexually abused by whoever it may have been from a very young age.
00:11:22.180And I do believe a lot of people go into porn because they have to, you know, they need to pay for this, that, you know, they start working on the streets because they have to.
00:11:30.480But very luckily, in my position, I really didn't.
00:11:32.940And I think nowadays that is the same for a lot of other girls because of because back then when when you went into it, you know, you'd have a pimp, you'd you'd be kind of forced into doing stuff.
00:11:48.600It's just a lot different from what we have now, where everything is done in your own terms and things like that.
00:11:55.200So on that very subject, it's interesting thinking about it from that perspective, because you do have much more control than a porn star would have done 10, 15 years ago.
00:12:27.420And I guess the other thing that Frances was kind of bringing up there from from a safety perspective is a lot of I read a lot of articles from feminists about your case or you at the time that you went kind of very big.
00:12:41.640One of the things that they were all saying is, like, it's not possible that she's consciously made this decision.
00:12:48.100Like, she's just doing whatever the society has created, the environment in which she can profit from this, but she'll regret this later.
00:12:56.640Do you worry that that might be the case?
00:13:19.560There's something else that you said that a lot of people were freaking out about, and I just thought, actually, it makes quite a lot of sense to me, which was like, you talked about how the likes and the attention online is more addictive than money or anything like that, right?
00:13:32.320I know, like, doing what we do, basically anyone who has a content channel has to grapple with the reality that all of that stuff is very addictive.
00:13:43.800And I know I have friends who, like, you're going for dinner and all they're doing is checking their phone every two minutes.
00:13:48.800I mean, even my friends who have, you know, 2,000 followers on TikTok, if one of their TikTok does a little bit better, performs better than others, they're getting a bit of a rush out of it.
00:14:35.480But I made it out to be, you know, this very, something you should keep safe.
00:14:40.300And, you know, I'm a, like, I'm very innocent and I need to protect that.
00:14:45.480And I will be, I think a lot of people make out that you will be damaged if you have more than one sexual partner and things like that.
00:14:54.840And that was very much in my head when I was younger.
00:14:59.400And yeah, when I, when I started to have, have sex, I kind of realised that it wasn't like that for me.
00:15:05.820I, I, I found enjoyment from having sex and it wasn't just about, you know, making love or, and things like that.
00:15:13.020So, yeah, I guess that's what kind of changed it, just having lots of sexual partners.
00:15:18.280Did you, is it because you didn't feel as great an emotional connection as you thought you would do?
00:15:23.600I think it's because I just really enjoyed it and I enjoyed it with lots of different partners.
00:15:29.580And I, I don't think I'm some innocent thing that needs to be bubble wrapped and can't be used.
00:15:37.120Do you think part of the reason that people have a reaction to what you do is partly because you're not the stereotypical woman?
00:15:45.420Like most women, when they have sex, there tends to be some kind of emotional connection there.
00:15:50.620So to have someone like you, who is the kind of opposite of that, that, people struggle to get their heads around it, don't they?
00:15:58.100Yeah, yeah. And I, I think that, and I think maybe the way I look is a little bit different to what you would put as like a stereotypical porn star.
00:16:08.520I, I think a lot of people struggle to believe that this is me because a lot of the women who work in sex work maybe have the fake boobs or look a little bit more sexualized.
00:16:23.400Um, I tend to dress a bit more modest and do my makeup a bit more hair, natural, stuff like that.
00:16:30.900And I think people just like really struggle to wrap their heads around that.
00:16:34.940Because also as well, you've, you spoke about the first time you got shown porn. I think you were 11 years old.
00:24:21.400And I think a lot of people got the impression from that, that maybe in that moment you were starting to realize that this was something that was having a detrimental.
00:24:30.720Impact on you, not in the sense of this is an intense job, but in the sense of like the job I'm doing is not actually healthy for me.
00:24:37.160That's kind of where I think people came away from it.
00:24:40.340I mean, people love to read into things and stuff like that and they love to paint their own picture on it.
00:24:45.440But that that is truly how I felt just exhausted and hard.
00:24:50.860You know, that's kind of how I depicted the day.
00:24:53.660So you didn't feel I'm just asking to clarify again, Lily, if it sounds like we're having a go.
00:25:45.340You know, when I watched a documentary, one of the things I kept thinking about and I was looking at these guys and I ended up judging them more than I judge you.
00:25:56.660And I was like, what type of bloke would do this?
00:25:59.820Was there like a commonality between these guys?
00:28:04.400I mean, I think this is probably some of the safest sex you can have in terms of talking about what you want to do before,
00:28:12.660talking about, you know, consent and stuff like that.
00:28:15.880And then wearing a condom, like if you were to go on a one night stand, you know, people, people love to pick at this that it's really unsafe.
00:28:24.360But when a lot of people have a one night stand, you know, they're not consenting, they're not sober, they're not wearing a condom.
00:28:31.720Like, so I think it was a very safe day, yeah.
00:28:36.040Look, I agree with you with the point of the one night stand, but I think on most porn sets, in fact, if it's not all, performers have to be tested, don't they?
00:28:44.880Because these are people who, you know, have a lot of sex.
00:28:53.760I mean, definitely going forward, that's what we'll do is get, well, that's what we have done, is get everyone tested.
00:28:59.660It's just tricky in England, we have such little free testing, obviously you can pay to get a full border test, but it's around like £300, £400 if you don't want to get a full border test, which is a lot to ask for from guys who are having a two minute shag.
00:29:18.420Is it, like, because, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to sound like a dad here, which, you know.
00:29:33.940I mean, I'm on PrEP and stuff like that, so I couldn't have caught HIV.
00:29:39.560But yeah, I try to be as safe as possible.
00:29:43.240Because when it came through, when I was seeing in the doc, I was, I was actually worried for you, and I was thinking to myself, you know, I understand you're young, and look, when I was 23, I didn't think about constantly.
00:29:57.500Consequences, I didn't do what you did, but, you know, I had, I had serious problems with alcohol, whatever else.
00:30:07.120I guess my worry when I saw you was that I was thinking, you're not thinking about the long-term consequences, particularly when it comes to something like this.
00:30:16.140Yeah, I mean, it was definitely a learning curve.
00:30:18.500Like I said, like, on the day, it was quite stressful.
00:30:20.740So I was just like, yeah, bring, bring more men in, you know.
00:30:23.500So, yeah, no, definitely a learning curve.
00:30:27.880And so, I guess, how do you, how, how do you make a balance?
00:30:52.380I mean, what, as in like safety on the vents or like safety on the vents?
00:30:55.880But also safety moving on, because there's going to be a time in your life, I hope, when you've made enough money, you don't want to do this.
00:31:39.840And the moment my wife got pregnant, I started to see the world completely differently, in many different ways.
00:31:46.680And one of the ways was, like, I started tweeting completely differently, because I was like, I don't think I want my son to see me, like, slagging this person off on Twitter in this way.
00:32:51.200And the idea that you're going to teach your kids to be a certain way is not matching my experience exactly.
00:32:58.360Like, my wife and I are pretty good at teaching him a particular way, but he also has a mind of his own because he's an independent person.
00:33:04.200And kids that you might have later, they will also be independent people who have their own concerns and their own worldviews.
00:33:10.400Like, you're probably somewhat different from your parents, right?
00:33:13.000Like, your mom probably doesn't do what you do, and she might have a different perspective on it.
00:33:16.960So, have you thought about the fact that if you do want children, their perception of your career, it may not necessarily be something that you control, and it almost certainly will not be positive?
00:33:41.100I think with the rise of OnlyFans and the fact that we're having a lot more conversations about sex work, I do think that is high likely in, I don't know, 20 years or so.
00:33:51.320Do you think, it's interesting about OnlyFans, because I'm very conflicted about it, Lily, and let's see if we can make sense of it together.
00:33:59.200On the one hand, I think it's far better for girls like you, who want to go and perform and want to be performers, and you seem very together and very business-like, fine.
00:34:08.120I do worry that easy access for 18-year-old girls who are barely out of childhood, not really aware of the choices that they're making, certainly not long-term, think their skin, oh, here's a way I can make a few quid, pay my way for university, college, whatever it may be, and then not aware of the long-term implications of their choices.
00:34:32.640Because you can say, and you can say, for instance, look, you know, I want to get to a place where people aren't discriminated against, fine, that's very noble, but that ain't the world we live in.
00:34:41.740Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's extremely important that young girls are educated on what this job is and what it means to do this job.
00:34:50.860Before I even did this, I thought about it for six months, and I think it's really important.
00:34:54.960I have so many girls come to me and be like, should I start OnlyFans? Like, what do I do?
00:35:00.240And the first thing I say is, like, please have a full think about it, because it really does change your life.
00:35:05.600It changes the way everyone looks at you, everyone treats you.
00:35:10.280Like, I probably don't even know the way it's going to change my life in the future, but it is huge.
00:35:16.840It's huge. And yeah, I think it's just really important that we educate young people on that.
00:35:20.960And so this is your opportunity. Like, what's wrong with doing OnlyFans?
00:35:25.040Well, obviously, the shame that comes around it, whether that's friends or family members, from friends or family members,
00:35:33.340the fact that you probably won't be able to do another job after this, you know, I couldn't go work in a school or anything like that.
00:35:43.300There's a lot more things wrong with it. Just the dangers of the industry, being unsafe, you know.
00:36:14.360The reason you say is, like, you say the girls contact you and they ask you and you are, like, really have a careful think.
00:36:21.540And I think this is, you know, in the spirit of that conversation, this is a good opportunity for you to actually lay out the things that people should weigh up.
00:37:15.060And even if you're, like, a faceless creator, people will always find out, like, they'll always find out, and just, like, the internet is forever.
00:37:22.380As well, in OnlyFans, you have to promote yourself online.
00:37:30.300Like, there's no other way to go about it.
00:37:33.080And that is hard, because then you can't be, like, secretive about it.
00:37:39.940Why do you have to promote yourself online?
00:48:04.280People wouldn't ask you what your parents think about it if you're a man because what they would say is you are evil and disgusting if you're a man.
00:48:12.580Because really, if you think about it, like in terms, sorry, I know it sounds harsh.
00:52:51.840Probably that sex is very, like, energy related.
00:52:55.740And that when I'm having a good time, it's usually because, like, our energies are aligning and we're on the same vibe, if that makes sense.
00:53:03.940I know that sounds a bit hippie-like, but I think it's true.
00:53:07.220Do you think, has it affected your ability to have sex in private?
00:53:12.800And is there a distinction between the two?
00:53:14.800Do you see one as work and the other as something else?
00:53:17.020I think there's definitely a distinction between, like, these big group sex I'm having and, you know, a one-on-one off-camera.
00:53:25.440You know, I can be a bit uglier, not put makeup on, you know, not have to, like, bend my back or make sure we're opening up to camera and they're seeing penetration or anything like that.
00:53:35.800And just kind of focus more on, you know, the actual act.
00:53:39.120And then when it's more, like, these big groups, you know, it's a little bit more performative, maybe I'm more, like, saying stuff that I wouldn't usually say if it was, like, one-to-one.
00:53:51.120Do you think, as a lot of people would say, does it affect your ability to have connection with people?
00:53:56.760Because, obviously, in your private life, you know, you want kids, you want a husband, sex is about connection.
00:54:04.160Will that affect your ability to connect with one person, considering what you do in your professional life?