TRIGGERnometry - September 29, 2022


Lord David Frost： ＂The Budget Was Absolutely the Right Thing to Do＂


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour

Words per minute

166.95538

Word count

10,152

Sentence count

482

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

15

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Lord David Frost was Britain's Chief Negotiator with the EU during the Brexit saga. In this episode, Francis Foster and Konstantin Kiss talk to Lord David Frost about his time as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:30.600 The people who voted conservative in those cities,
00:00:32.960 yes, it was partly about Brexit.
00:00:34.280 Brexit was a way of kind of, it was important to a lot of people.
00:00:38.860 But I think it was also the thing that sort of tipped people over
00:00:43.340 from realising that actually maybe they weren't really Labour voters.
00:00:48.960 But when they looked at what they actually value,
00:00:51.140 now they saw the world, maybe they were really Conservatives.
00:00:55.100 And Brexit enabled them to kind of recognise that.
00:00:58.160 it's the end of an era.
00:01:00.780 You know, the last 20, 25 years of doing things
00:01:04.180 is coming to an end.
00:01:05.440 And people are, you know, they're responding in different ways,
00:01:08.040 but I think a lot of people feel that.
00:01:10.020 The state is the biggest it's ever been.
00:01:12.760 We can't continue to see the state growing and growing and growing.
00:01:18.080 And, you know, what we're seeing is that, you know,
00:01:21.100 this collectivism, this statism has been reinforced
00:01:25.120 by the bailouts from the crash, by the lifestyle politics imposed by climate politics and then by the pandemic.
00:01:36.120 And all of that has reinforced the sense that, you know, statism is the right way to go.
00:01:41.120 Government telling you what to do is the right way to go. And we've got to stop that.
00:01:45.120 The state is bigger than it's ever been in this country.
00:01:49.120 You know, government rules, influence over your own behaviour has become stronger and stronger, and it must stop.
00:01:57.620 In a free society, you've got to call halt to this.
00:02:10.220 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.
00:02:13.140 I'm Francis Foster.
00:02:14.360 I'm Konstantin Kiss.
00:02:15.260 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:02:20.740 Our brilliant guest today was Britain's chief negotiator with the European Union during the Brexit saga.
00:02:26.140 Lord David Frost, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:02:27.780 Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:02:29.000 It is really good to have you here. We're going to get into all the issues in the conversation.
00:02:33.580 Before we do, though, we've got a lot of people abroad who may not know who you are.
00:02:37.900 Tell everybody, who are you? What has been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?
00:02:42.460 Yeah, so I spent much of my early life as a diplomat, professional diplomat for UK government, so civil servant.
00:02:52.220 I worked as the Foreign Office's Director for EU affairs, lead on trade affairs, that sort of thing.
00:02:58.560 I got frustrated with being a civil servant and not being able to say what I think.
00:03:02.960 So I went off to run a big trade association for a bit, Scotch Whiskey Association, which a lot of people say is the greatest job in the world, sadly.
00:03:12.460 I only did it for three years until Boris Johnson asked me to become his foreign policy EU advisor
00:03:20.920 when he was foreign secretary and then as prime minister.
00:03:23.940 And that's how I ended up doing the Brexit negotiations coming in when everything seemed to have got stuck.
00:03:32.780 I was for a time thereafter a minister in Boris's government until I stepped down at the end of last year
00:03:39.660 because I wasn't able to support
00:03:42.800 the prospect of another lockdown over COVID.
00:03:47.240 So that's where I am now.
00:03:48.540 After our own heart,
00:03:49.440 although we didn't step down from anything.
00:03:51.540 But David, in the interest of full disclosure
00:03:53.800 for our audience,
00:03:54.940 you and I were speaking
00:03:56.120 and you mentioned that you'd watched
00:03:59.020 or listened to our interview with Matt Goodwin,
00:04:00.940 who we have a lot of time for on this show.
00:04:03.700 And as we were speaking about the future
00:04:05.640 of the Conservative Party,
00:04:07.220 you said that you had some different thoughts.
00:04:09.660 um about all of that so what are they so i think you know the politics has changed over the last
00:04:18.300 uh sort of 10 years or so and as many people have said it isn't just about economics anymore it's
00:04:24.060 it's about culture and you know shorthand wokeism though i hate the word you know where does that
00:04:31.260 i hate it partly because i don't see how a past participle can become an abstract now
00:04:36.140 just to react against that. So it's got more complicated. And what I hear people like Matt
00:04:48.140 and others saying is that it is a possible position for the Conservative Party to be in,
00:04:54.020 to be sort of anti-woke in culture, but quite statist and left-wing on economic policy,
00:05:02.060 because we've taken in red wall seats and, you know, people who used to vote Labour.
00:05:08.360 And I think my view is that's a fallacy.
00:05:12.780 It's a fallacy for two reasons.
00:05:14.900 One, because people who vote Conservative,
00:05:18.280 I think one should assume they actually want Conservative policies
00:05:21.160 until it's kind of proved otherwise.
00:05:24.360 Second, I think the choice, these are different kinds of choices.
00:05:31.500 The choice between sort of wokeism and non-wokeism, if you like, is a kind of political choice.
00:05:37.600 You know, I happen to think one is better than the other, but it's basically about your worldview and how you want society to run.
00:05:44.900 The choice between do you have free market economic policies or do you have more statist economic policies is a real world thing.
00:05:53.180 We know in the real world, free market policies tend to reduce more prosperity, more growth, better outcomes than others.
00:06:02.500 So if you just look at this as a political thing and say, you know, the way politics has evolved means that it's sensible for us as a Conservative Party to take on left-wing policies.
00:06:15.200 You're actually condemning yourself to ideological and actual defeat because you're choosing an economy that isn't going to grow as fast.
00:06:23.180 And people are not going to like that.
00:06:24.640 So that's why I think politics is about persuasion, politics is about encouraging people to, you know, kind of take on your worldview.
00:06:36.320 And we should be standing up for free market, liberal policies focused on growth, focused on productivity, focused on the productive capacity of this country and persuading people they are the best policies.
00:06:49.360 And I hope we're beginning to do that now, actually.
00:06:51.600 But isn't the problem, David, that the Conservatives had a huge majority in the 2019 general election because they promised, in their own words, to get Brexit done, which, to be fair, you did.
00:07:02.940 And you have all these red wall seats who aren't naturally conservative.
00:07:08.680 Therefore, you have MPs representing these people who want more left wing policies because they're more economically disadvantaged, thus creating an imbalance in the party.
00:07:19.080 because if the MP for a red wall seat
00:07:24.160 doesn't represent their constituents and their desires,
00:07:28.000 they're going to lose their seat and they're going to be out of a job.
00:07:30.860 So I think the people who voted for those seats,
00:07:36.440 yes, it was partly about Brexit.
00:07:37.780 Brexit was a way of kind of, it was important to a lot of people, rightly so. 0.89
00:07:43.680 But I think it was also the thing that sort of tipped people over
00:07:48.340 from realising that actually maybe they weren't really Labour voters.
00:07:53.740 They were doing it for historical, traditional, other reasons.
00:07:57.240 But when they looked at what they actually valued,
00:07:59.400 now they saw the world, maybe they were really Conservatives.
00:08:03.340 And Brexit enabled them to kind of recognise that.
00:08:07.180 We shouldn't forget that Mrs Thatcher won a lot of red wall seats in 1983.
00:08:12.300 She held on to them in 1987.
00:08:14.460 It's not quite as new as some people say that we've had these supporters.
00:08:20.120 And she won them with an appeal to free market, running your own life, 1.00
00:08:26.920 freeing yourself from the shackles of state housing, state benefits,
00:08:32.820 people telling you what to do all the time.
00:08:34.620 And I think that appeal is just as strong nowadays.
00:08:38.020 And we need to lean into it and bring people into that supporter group,
00:08:43.540 not be embarrassed about it.
00:08:45.620 I completely agree with you,
00:08:46.820 but if you look at what the Conservative policies
00:08:49.640 have been over the last couple of years,
00:08:52.360 as in not telling people what to do
00:08:54.420 and no state involvement,
00:08:55.960 I mean, the government voted Conservative.
00:08:59.440 They got left of Corbyn, didn't they?
00:09:01.300 In many ways.
00:09:04.080 I'm the last person to defend the economic record
00:09:06.940 of the last couple of years.
00:09:08.480 I think it's well known that I resigned in part because of it.
00:09:12.680 I think, you know, we are, people make the comparison with the 1970s quite often.
00:09:18.540 And I think one of the reasons that's correct is that it's the end of an era.
00:09:23.860 You know, the last 20, 25 years of doing things is coming to an end.
00:09:28.540 And people are, you know, they're responding in different ways.
00:09:31.120 But I think a lot of people feel that.
00:09:33.440 And, you know, what we're seeing is that, you know, this collectivism,
00:09:37.800 This statism has been reinforced by the bailouts from the crash, by the lifestyle politics imposed by climate politics, and then by the pandemic.
00:09:51.460 And all of that has reinforced the sense that statism is the right way to go.
00:09:56.500 Government telling you what to do is the right way to go.
00:09:58.760 And we've got to stop that.
00:10:00.260 The state is bigger than it's ever been in this country.
00:10:03.260 you know government rules influence over your own behavior has become stronger and stronger and
00:10:11.060 it must stop in a free society you've got to call halt to this at some point you do but isn't the
00:10:18.160 problem as well when you've got a population who become used to the big state that the moment you
00:10:24.180 start taking it away you're going to threaten you know your own chance of being re-elected because
00:10:29.560 all of a sudden you're going to become the mean, nasty Tories who are only interested in big 0.64
00:10:34.120 business. And let's be fair, has Trump, no, Trump, sorry, has trust made a bit... There's a slip.
00:10:41.660 And then you've got trust, basically, you know, with bankers, bankers, bonuses, etc.
00:10:47.460 Well, I mean, ideally, you'll be doing this at the start of a four or five year term. And
00:10:52.360 for reasons we know about that, that hasn't been possible. There's only two years or so
00:10:56.180 left um but i you know i still think you've got to do the right things if we if we're going to go
00:11:03.400 down to defeat let's at least do it having had the argument done what we said was the right thing
00:11:08.680 tried to to persuade people rather than half-heartedly doing things we don't really
00:11:13.600 believe in in a belief that it might keep everybody happy people can recognize intellectual
00:11:19.480 confidence and authenticity i think and it appeals to to people so let's let's lean into
00:11:25.780 that let's do the things we believe in and believe will work and i think they will work i think you
00:11:32.120 know two years is long enough to start seeing some of the results of this but we have to have
00:11:36.540 intellectual confidence we have to start talking about um you know the role of profits the role
00:11:42.540 of a normal interest rate in a capitalist economy the things that make it work and be honest about
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00:13:59.820 David, I think you put your finger on something that is obviously very important, particularly in terms of your comparison with Thatcher.
00:14:07.900 And I imagine as someone who used to be this country's chief negotiator with the EU,
00:14:12.640 even though you're very softly spoken, you must know how to carry a big stick too.
00:14:16.620 However, in the current prime minister's situation,
00:14:20.000 it must be extraordinarily difficult to, yes, she speaks confidently and softly at the same time,
00:14:24.880 but how do you carry a stick when you've got no mandate whatsoever?
00:14:29.880 That is difficult.
00:14:31.440 I wouldn't say we've got no mandate because, you know, that is the way our system works.
00:14:36.100 It's not the first time the Prime Minister's changed midterm and people accept that's part of the way the system works.
00:14:42.740 I think you've just got to have this trust, the team, got to have intellectual confidence and say,
00:14:51.880 be honest about the mistakes we made in the last couple of years.
00:14:56.320 Be honest about where things have gone wrong.
00:14:58.700 Be clear that things are going to a different direction.
00:15:01.580 Say, judge us in a couple of years.
00:15:03.620 If you don't like it, obviously, there is another route.
00:15:07.940 But to be clear, make sure people understand what we're trying to do
00:15:16.100 and why and what the goal is.
00:15:18.560 I think that's the crucial thing at the moment.
00:15:20.100 People are just not being talked to honestly for so long about things.
00:15:24.140 And we can change that.
00:15:25.680 I agree with you on that.
00:15:26.820 I really do hope we change that.
00:15:29.640 And I suppose this morning you came in, you were quite chipper.
00:15:33.620 as we're recording this
00:15:36.520 it will be a few days before it goes out
00:15:38.400 the chancellor, the new chancellor
00:15:40.640 was just announcing
00:15:41.600 I don't think many people would have
00:15:44.600 expected
00:15:45.080 the general public who are not
00:15:48.420 obsessed with politics like the three of us
00:15:50.560 would have expected that in this current
00:15:52.780 climate the thing that
00:15:54.700 the government would be doing is
00:15:56.160 slashing taxes
00:15:57.580 abolishing the top rate of tax next year
00:16:00.580 and all of the other things that are now happening
00:16:03.280 you must be delighted.
00:16:05.140 Yeah, I think it's absolutely the right thing to do.
00:16:08.220 We must get the economy onto a different path.
00:16:13.060 We've got to change expectations.
00:16:15.360 Yes, there's going to be an uplift in borrowing in the short run,
00:16:20.560 but we must get people thinking that we are trying to improve
00:16:25.060 the productive capacity of this economy.
00:16:27.420 We've got to get investors, people who look at this country saying,
00:16:30.300 yeah, the Brits get it.
00:16:32.480 They can't do everything straight away,
00:16:34.220 but they understand what needs to be done
00:16:36.040 and they're getting on the right path.
00:16:38.780 And there needs to be that sort of psychological shock,
00:16:42.880 change of expectations, belief things can get better.
00:16:46.720 And I think that's what the Chancellor's trying to deliver today.
00:16:51.680 I actually believe that, you know, in the capitalist economy,
00:16:55.640 you need interest rates that are above zero.
00:16:58.280 I think they're going to have to go up further, not just to control inflation, but because that's how the economy works.
00:17:05.620 We probably are going to have to see a lower pound because we need to be on a different forward curve.
00:17:11.340 And to support the economy, it's right to do a bit of borrowing and tax cuts so that demand doesn't collapse.
00:17:17.020 And I think this is a perfectly rational way forward.
00:17:21.720 And all the sort of world-weary economists who are out there saying, what about borrowing?
00:17:27.000 What about this?
00:17:27.620 What about that?
00:17:28.280 It's irresponsible.
00:17:29.400 What do the Treasury officials think of it all?
00:17:31.900 I just think that is, they're still talking a story
00:17:36.780 that is irrelevant to the challenges that face the country
00:17:40.940 after Brexit and in this new world.
00:17:43.580 Well, I do agree with you, but I am one of those,
00:17:45.880 not economists, but certainly world-weary
00:17:47.880 in terms of the amount of borrowing.
00:17:49.220 But I think we have to distinguish between different types of borrowing.
00:17:52.440 If you're borrowing on a credit card to go and have a night out,
00:17:56.320 that's one thing.
00:17:57.040 If you're borrowing to build a business, that's completely different.
00:18:01.560 And this brings me to the two issues that Francis and I talk about all the time,
00:18:06.180 which is we've borrowed to pay people to stay at home.
00:18:09.620 Before that, we borrowed to pay bankers to stay afloat.
00:18:13.100 What about the housing crisis?
00:18:15.060 What about infrastructure in this country?
00:18:16.840 Because I've got no problem borrowing more money to do those things,
00:18:22.080 to create jobs, and to get the economy moving.
00:18:25.240 are we going to get those two issues solved with just cutting taxes and allowing some people would
00:18:34.460 argue money just to accumulate at the top with no productive activity being generated it can only be
00:18:41.580 the first step you know this is about changing expectations and making people believe that
00:18:46.420 things can be better and the economy can improve i think the government has announced today some
00:18:51.340 some improvements to or at least prospect some improvements to infrastructure
00:18:55.440 getting through quicker let's see what that looks like it is really important obviously
00:19:00.860 the housing market is a massive massive problem in this this country and um you know it's a huge
00:19:08.920 part of the productivity problem i think not being able to move house is obviously part part of that
00:19:14.280 we're going to have to build more houses there's there's no two ways about around that 0.70
00:19:20.640 that we're going to have to build houses in places
00:19:22.940 where people don't want houses to be built.
00:19:25.340 And we're going to have to find a way of making that possible.
00:19:29.120 I think it is more possible than people believe,
00:19:32.600 but it's going to have to be done.
00:19:34.460 And, you know, I hope the government is going to take this on
00:19:37.920 in the enterprise zones for elsewhere.
00:19:39.600 I'm not hearing, forgive me,
00:19:41.200 but I'm hearing we're going to have to
00:19:43.900 as opposed to that's what's going to happen.
00:19:46.780 Do you believe it's going to happen?
00:19:48.960 I believe it is going to happen, actually.
00:19:50.640 I don't necessarily think it's going to happen like tomorrow
00:19:53.420 because sequencing is important
00:19:55.900 and getting people used to ideas is important.
00:19:59.600 And I think one of the problems we've had, actually,
00:20:02.840 one of the consequences of this sort of collectivism
00:20:05.160 over the last 20 years is that people have not been prepared
00:20:09.200 for the scale of the challenge that has to come.
00:20:13.220 We've not talked about how market economies work.
00:20:16.220 We've not talked about what that means
00:20:17.900 for your own individual prospects,
00:20:20.080 how you have to prepare yourself, how you have to skill,
00:20:23.260 you know, all this sort of thing.
00:20:24.420 We've just not talked about it.
00:20:25.860 So you can't, I think, suddenly land people 0.99
00:20:28.920 with a million things that are a completely different world view
00:20:33.300 and expect people to put up with it.
00:20:34.920 We have to allow some time for persuasion,
00:20:38.120 for getting people used to ideas,
00:20:40.080 for testing things and showing that actually it isn't so bad,
00:20:43.760 maybe, when you do this.
00:20:45.260 Hopefully fracking, for example, is going to be one of those things.
00:20:47.700 and gradually change the debate.
00:20:50.640 So you shouldn't rush at everything.
00:20:53.180 I think the crucial thing is also to have a really convincing manifesto
00:20:58.200 for the next election that's based on a real story
00:21:00.740 for which you can get a real mandate to do some actually difficult things.
00:21:06.160 And some of that you've got to prepare for.
00:21:08.520 You can't just do it all straight away.
00:21:10.680 But isn't also the problem as well, David,
00:21:12.660 is that you get a lot of these conservative voters who are NIMBYs 0.93
00:21:18.200 Not in my backyard.
00:21:20.140 And also, you know, a lot of them own property.
00:21:23.020 You are essentially, if you're going to build large swathes of housing
00:21:26.400 to solve this crisis, and it is a crisis,
00:21:29.020 you're essentially devaluing their assets, aren't you?
00:21:32.120 Well, that is a risk.
00:21:34.880 I mean, there is so much pressure in the housing market,
00:21:40.780 particularly in southern England,
00:21:41.740 that, you know, it's going to take a lot to sort of devalue people's assets over a sustained period.
00:21:49.200 I think, you know, we're really just talking about keeping a lid on things
00:21:52.760 and hoping that, you know, inflation and growth, you know, kind of enable people to catch up over time.
00:21:59.060 So I think people are more worried than they need be probably about this.
00:22:03.040 But I think, you know, people like me, people, you know, who have benefited from the boom,
00:22:09.940 the illusory boom actually in many ways of the last 20 years
00:22:14.540 have got to accept that you know we have an intergenerational responsibility
00:22:20.920 and part of that is getting more houses built even if there's there's a cost
00:22:26.080 I just think that is part of the story that has to be told
00:22:28.620 To me it's one of the biggest problems with our society
00:22:31.900 because we talk about wokeism or progressivism or however you want to describe it
00:22:36.000 but how can you possibly expect young people to be conservative
00:22:39.400 or to adopt conservative values
00:22:41.900 when they literally have nothing to conserve.
00:22:44.400 They rent a one-bedroom flat in Hackney
00:22:47.160 for the best part of two grand a month.
00:22:48.860 Yeah.
00:22:49.700 Well, I couldn't agree with you more.
00:22:53.840 You know, we have to...
00:22:58.500 There's been so many imbalances for so long
00:23:02.960 in asset prices and the asset market,
00:23:05.740 housing market generally.
00:23:06.780 is going to take a long time to unwind this.
00:23:10.540 The pressures are so great.
00:23:11.820 I mean, you already, there's a huge benefit
00:23:14.940 from setting up a business in Northern England,
00:23:17.440 buying a house in Northern England.
00:23:18.660 It's already a lot, lot cheaper than in boom areas of the South.
00:23:22.520 Yet people don't do it.
00:23:23.600 The pressures are still to come to the South.
00:23:25.540 It's going to take a lot to reverse that.
00:23:28.240 But you have to start somewhere
00:23:29.860 and you have to start giving people a feeling
00:23:33.160 that, you know, if they work, if they do save,
00:23:37.320 actually it's a worthwhile thing to do
00:23:38.980 and not completely pointless thing to do,
00:23:41.060 which is how people feel at the moment, I think.
00:23:43.400 Yeah, that's not untrue.
00:23:44.360 And Francis and I, again, as trigonometry becomes a small business,
00:23:48.340 we have staff, we pay tax, all of these things.
00:23:51.720 You know, you go to America and you kind of realise,
00:23:54.000 like, it's not that easy to run a business in Britain.
00:23:56.180 It's not that easy to do these things
00:23:58.160 because there are a lot of taxes to pay.
00:24:00.140 There's lots of rules to follow.
00:24:01.880 There's lots of boxes to tick.
00:24:03.020 all of these things. So I get that. But David, this is what I want to ask you, because a lot
00:24:08.380 of the people who watch our show from the UK will be those red wall people, some of whom will 1.00
00:24:15.780 absolutely agree with you. I can think of several of our supporters who already will be on your side.
00:24:20.280 But there will be a lot of people also who, as we've talked about, we've had a long period of
00:24:25.580 time now where if there is a problem, government's the answer. What is the economic argument at its
00:24:33.520 core that you're making about the free market, reducing regulation, reducing taxes? Why is that
00:24:42.980 better? How does that work? You mentioned the economy, this is how it works. Explain that at
00:24:48.600 a very basic level for us. Why is your view of how the economy should be managed better?
00:24:53.640 that people make better choices for themselves they they obviously you need a a framework and
00:25:01.800 the state sets the framework but basically people know better themselves what they want to do and
00:25:08.840 how they want to live their lives and where they want to spend their money and what they want to
00:25:13.380 spend it on um than uh the government does and where the government tries to do it it tends to
00:25:20.860 get it wrong it imposes its own judgments on people it makes them do things they wouldn't
00:25:26.260 otherwise choose to do it accepts it sets up a a single view of the good society which you're
00:25:35.300 forced to buy into uh and you have to live by the government rules and i think that historically
00:25:42.540 has been shown not to work uh where it's been tried now you know nobody's going to try the
00:25:47.700 extreme forms in this country. Although, you know, during the pandemic, there were some quite
00:25:53.720 extreme things happening. But if you allow people to make their own decisions, you know, accumulate
00:26:00.560 money for themselves and their families, live their lives as they want to, they'll make better
00:26:08.540 decisions, they'll invest, they'll become more prosperous. That's the fundamental core, I think,
00:26:13.640 of this. I hear you. And from where I'm sitting, the obvious and very easy way to attack your
00:26:19.680 argument is to say, but what about the people who can't help themselves? What about the disabled? 0.85
00:26:25.140 What about the people who are chronically ill? Every time we reduce the size of the state,
00:26:30.100 yes, you know, we unleash the brilliance of billionaires and millionaires in this country
00:26:34.960 to build businesses, even if we are that charitable to your argument. But the people who really suffer
00:26:40.940 Are there people living in deprived communities, people who, like I say, rely on the NHS to survive, people who are disabled mentally or physically?
00:26:50.080 All of these people surely will suffer as we reduce the size of the state, would be the argument.
00:26:56.160 Everybody would agree that the state should be generous to people who can't work for whatever reason it is.
00:27:05.120 The problem is that we have, over the years, got a state system that is much more generous than that.
00:27:14.600 And that's kind of undermining support for it for a lot of people.
00:27:20.180 The universal credit system, for example, you can claim universal credit if you're on the average wage.
00:27:27.220 And in what sense is that a kind of benefit for people who can't help themselves? 0.84
00:27:32.660 It's a big, complex system that funnels money from one part of the economy to another.
00:27:39.220 And in so doing, it's undermining support for state transfers as a whole.
00:27:43.560 It's making people who have no need to be dependent upon the state.
00:27:48.180 Of course, we must help people who can't help themselves.
00:27:52.960 The government's actually not very good at that, it seems to me, in many ways.
00:27:58.240 And focusing on that would be a better thing to do.
00:28:01.640 So people have forgotten, I think, that the state is the biggest it's ever been.
00:28:07.920 We can't continue to see the state growing and growing and growing
00:28:12.640 because we think it's the right thing to do.
00:28:15.920 You have to draw a line somewhere and focus the state back down on its core tasks.
00:28:21.920 Under Tony Blair, the state was 5% GDP smaller than now.
00:28:26.700 Everyone seems to think Tony Blair time was quite a good time
00:28:29.760 And, you know, people who I don't agree with politically quite liked it.
00:28:33.580 And, you know, life went on, even though the state was a lot smaller.
00:28:36.980 You can get it smaller.
00:28:38.680 You can focus down on the core tasks.
00:28:42.520 I agree with you that it does need to be smaller because at the moment it's economically unsustainable and it's not really a conversation that we want to have.
00:28:49.500 And the big elephant in the room to me is the NHS, which is becoming more and more unfit for purpose when you see how much money is being ploughed into it.
00:28:59.040 and yet the ordinary person struggles to get a gp appointment you think the waiting list i don't
00:29:06.160 know however many millions it goes seems to go up by a million every week or something ridiculous
00:29:10.040 like that and people waiting to get cancer appointments checkups it it doesn't work does
00:29:17.260 it it doesn't it doesn't or it works in a very sort of crude um inefficient fashion and that's
00:29:26.000 we get when you know you've got one half million people and a budget of 160 billion a year all run
00:29:32.900 from the centre. Inevitably you get these outcomes and I mean I'm encouraged that I think for the
00:29:39.320 first time in my political life I suppose we're beginning to hear people say actually this isn't
00:29:46.920 working very well. I don't like it that I can't get to my GP. I don't like the fact there's a
00:29:51.740 waiting list. Every time, you know, when I go into hospital, I see a different person every day,
00:29:56.860 they lose my papers, I'm not confident, they're not giving me, you know, they're giving me the
00:30:00.760 right drug. So you hear this kind of all the time from people's day-to-day experience.
00:30:05.060 And there's only so long, I think, that people can hold the day-to-day experience in parallel
00:30:10.680 with the sort of religious belief about the system. In the end, one undermines the other,
00:30:17.140 And I hope we're beginning to see that.
00:30:20.120 I think actually also people have, you know, lots of people have got experience of the European systems now, whether they live in Europe or have visited it.
00:30:28.040 They've seen what it's like to get treatment somewhere other than the NHS.
00:30:32.700 And they don't think it's that bad necessarily.
00:30:35.320 And I think it's beginning to kind of permeate through.
00:30:38.960 So the problem is that you can't change the NHS overnight.
00:30:42.940 you know it is the task of a generation really to change this this monolith you've got to start
00:30:49.760 somewhere you've got to stop adding new tasks you should take off some of the sort of frivolities
00:30:55.120 that people should pay for themselves and i think gradually you've got to try and bring in some sort
00:31:03.060 of market insurance elements out the margins probably first and get it working in a more
00:31:11.180 functional way but that's going to take 20 years if you started today i think and that's why people
00:31:17.400 shy away um what do you mean by the frivolities david what are we talking about with the word
00:31:22.260 frivolities well uh sort of lifestyle surgery maybe you know i don't know some people would
00:31:28.500 say ivf for example people should pay for themselves i mean i think there's a debate
00:31:32.180 we had about that but i think all at the moment all the pressure is the other way that you know
00:31:36.620 new kind of things get added into NHS treatment all the time.
00:31:41.360 And, you know, again, you've got to draw the line somewhere or not.
00:31:46.700 I'm not making a direct comparison here,
00:31:48.560 but if you look at, like, veterinary services, for example,
00:31:52.020 completely private service, obviously,
00:31:54.260 and nobody's suggesting we should do that,
00:31:56.100 but there is no shortage.
00:31:57.880 You can get to see a vet kind of tomorrow because the market works.
00:32:03.240 And in the NHS, we have no market meaningfully at all.
00:32:08.860 The only sort of sorting system is by a queue.
00:32:13.060 And that's what happens.
00:32:14.580 So you've got to try and bring elements of rationality into it, I think.
00:32:18.920 And what would you say to those people who go, look, if we do that, what we're going to become is effectively the United States,
00:32:24.380 where people are essentially made bankrupt every time they get diagnosed with cancer.
00:32:29.140 cancer treatments cost tens of thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands how do we
00:32:33.920 stop that from happening so i think that there is always this um artificial comparison made between
00:32:41.560 um as if the only two models are our model and the u.s model and um you know it bedevils the
00:32:50.520 debate we have on this actually you know people need to get that we are the outlier hardly anybody
00:32:55.360 runs their health service like we do, with virtually everything being delivered by government.
00:33:00.760 The only countries that do are the Scandinavians and the Irish, much smaller countries where you 0.99
00:33:06.960 don't have this sort of massive monolith problem that we do in the UK that's 10 times as big.
00:33:13.740 The norm in an advanced country is to have some sort of social insurance system, quite a lot of
00:33:21.060 competition, quite a loss of private provision in the system, and a lot more patient and consumer
00:33:28.400 choice. That is the international norm across Europe, and we could go there. So let's break
00:33:34.200 that down. What does that actually mean, a social insurance system? Because I'm sure there's people
00:33:37.620 watching and listening to this thinking, what, what, what, like, Bupa? Is that a social insurance
00:33:41.920 system? Well, not really, because it's kind of outside the system altogether. What we're seeing
00:33:47.680 at the moment, I think, and we've seen quite a lot in the last year or two, is that we're getting
00:33:53.140 two systems in this country. We've got the NHS that doesn't work, and then you've got a completely
00:33:59.500 private system, which is totally separated from it. There's no sort of tax benefit or any other
00:34:05.140 kind. It's entirely for people who've got the ability to pay for it. However, you do get
00:34:10.840 treatment quickly. The way most European systems work, and they're all kind of different,
00:34:17.400 So there's no single model. But that there is a sort of compulsory insurance element. You know, you join maybe one of a number of insurance schemes. You can choose the level at which you go into these schemes.
00:34:35.760 quite a lot of the provision is contracted for by these schemes or sometimes by the government,
00:34:42.960 private clinics, private doctors, whatever. But the whole system is backed up by the government.
00:34:49.640 It's still largely free at the point of use, but it's not run by the government. And there's much
00:34:56.440 more efficiency in the way treatment happens. And, you know, you simply, you know, apart from
00:35:02.280 the special case after the pandemic you simply don't get these sort of massive waiting lists in
00:35:07.500 many european countries that that we do here and if people understood that i think they'd be more
00:35:13.100 well that is actually something uh just as an aside because i want to move on but that is
00:35:16.580 something i think people in this country really don't understand is how extraordinary it is that
00:35:21.660 as a wealthy country you have a health care system where you have to wait you have to wait at all i
00:35:27.380 I mean, in Russia or Ukraine or countries that I've grown up in, the notion that you would wait for an appointment to see your doctor, it's absurd.
00:35:36.960 Yes.
00:35:37.660 It's absurd.
00:35:38.580 I agree.
00:35:38.980 It's completely absurd.
00:35:39.740 So, I mean, I hear you on that one.
00:35:42.220 I want to move on, though, David, because coming right back to the beginning of our conversation and Matt Goodwin sitting here, one of the things that he talked about, and I hear Nigel Farage talking about this quite extensively.
00:35:55.080 Essentially, Nigel Farage's argument is because of what's happening with immigration now,
00:36:03.180 the people who will fill the space that he's vacated will be, in his words, I think,
00:36:08.780 far less pleasant to the chattering classes than even he was. 0.72
00:36:12.260 And I think it's fair to say that when people voted to, quote, unquote,
00:36:18.340 take back control of the borders. They did not vote for immigration to increase as it did under
00:36:26.240 your former boss. And they certainly did not vote for thousands of people to come into this country 0.71
00:36:33.840 illegally every month. What is the new prime minister going to do about this?
00:36:42.280 So I think it is really important, first of all, that the state works properly.
00:36:53.120 And this is one of the areas where it needs to work properly.
00:36:56.160 So although I'm often caricatured as a kind of crazed free marketeer of some kind, actually, I think it is really important to see the two things in parallel.
00:37:04.780 Well, the private economy, the market economy needs to work in a free market way, but the state also needs to work properly and be properly funded.
00:37:14.680 And that means things like controlling the borders properly.
00:37:19.520 It means proper law and order, police on the streets, a justice system that works and prisons that aren't a sort of disgrace, frankly, to a civilised society.
00:37:30.580 it means the benefits working properly
00:37:32.700 in the way that we were talking about earlier.
00:37:35.000 So, you know, there definitely is a big role for a state.
00:37:38.880 The problem is, again, it's taking on more and more
00:37:41.580 kind of frivolous tasks the whole time,
00:37:44.680 getting distracted from its core duties,
00:37:47.280 and that's what it's got to do.
00:37:48.900 So that's the context.
00:37:51.420 And on the immigration thing, I mean,
00:37:55.200 i i i think immigration must come down uh it's not sort of straightforward to look at this
00:38:04.640 year on year because you don't control the number of people who leave the country for one thing so
00:38:09.100 they're always kind of the you know the the the graph will always um vary year on year it's the
00:38:16.200 overall trend you've got to look at the truth is our economy has um benefited from or has has we've
00:38:24.220 developed an economic model that's been based on lots of cheap labour from Europe for the last
00:38:28.780 20-25 years. You can't turn that off overnight. I don't think we should turn that off overnight,
00:38:36.040 given there's so many other economic problems going on. But I do think we have to set a trajectory
00:38:42.700 that is down and be clear that it's going to go down and set that in a credible way.
00:38:50.860 And the problem, again, at the moment is that over the last year, we've talked tough about immigration.
00:38:57.240 But actually, the numbers have, you know, if anything, gone up.
00:38:59.840 I think it's not entirely clear because, of course, not every European would have shown up in the system beforehand.
00:39:06.500 But nevertheless, it remains high and it has to come down.
00:39:10.080 We have to move to a different model where business adjusts to the fact that there isn't an indefinite supply of free labor
00:39:19.700 and invests in the people they've got.
00:39:22.160 But that is going to take a bit of time.
00:39:24.280 Okay, that's the first part.
00:39:25.740 But the other part, and this is something I can tell you,
00:39:28.560 something you already know.
00:39:30.420 Illegal immigration pisses people off like nothing else. 1.00
00:39:33.980 And it pisses people like me off,
00:39:35.540 who are first-generation immigrants,
00:39:37.580 came to this country, followed the process,
00:39:39.800 a process that isn't always pleasant or fair or cheap or whatever, right?
00:39:44.520 But I don't think...
00:39:46.500 I think that one of the defining features of this country
00:39:48.860 is the sense of fairness and I don't understand how people in in politics seem to not understand
00:39:57.100 or how crucial addressing that issue is because and it's not because contrary to what people like
00:40:03.060 to say that it's about racism or xenophobia whatever it is I think it's about fairness
00:40:07.400 people don't feel that anyone should come into this country illegally and we have thousands
00:40:14.040 of people coming in, and we have no idea who they are as well.
00:40:19.060 There's a security dimension to this, there's a fairness dimension.
00:40:21.980 I mean, you can look at it in many different ways.
00:40:24.780 First of all, how is it even possible that, what, six years on from Brexit,
00:40:31.000 there are people coming here in boats from war-torn France?
00:40:34.500 How is that happening?
00:40:36.220 So, I mean, it is an incredibly complicated question,
00:40:38.880 And I think Boris Johnson got blamed unfairly, actually, for not caring about this problem.
00:40:45.220 I know he really did try and had meetings sort of every two or three days on the subject for a lot of the time I was there in number 10.
00:40:52.200 It was not for want of trying or thinking this was not a problem.
00:40:56.180 It was because it is an extremely intractable problem.
00:41:00.100 There is the practical problem that, you know, when people are coming over in a small, unseaworthy boat, you know, kind of common humanity means you've got to handle them in a certain way.
00:41:14.780 The French won't take them back. 1.00
00:41:16.340 Therefore, you end up having to sort of bring them into the UK, where they're then surrounded by the panoply of sort of legal protections, judicial reviews, the amateurish and slow way we run our asylum system that produces an incentive to come here and risk it. 0.97
00:41:37.000 So, there are lots of things that need changing. I think the government is going to have to get
00:41:45.100 more robust on this. I think it's going to have to say, if you come here illegally,
00:41:53.080 you don't get the right to stay. You have to work out what the consequences of that are.
00:41:59.140 And I think it's going to have to take on the ECHR issue. The ECHR Convention of Human Rights
00:42:04.860 is part of the, is the ultimate reason why there are so many legal challenges, so many
00:42:12.780 problems in the legal framework that we've got. And I think we're going to have to try and cut
00:42:19.500 through that in some way in the next couple of years. I can't see how we can solve this problem
00:42:24.020 without doing that. Hey Francis, do you like ideas? Of course I do. My favourite idea was
00:42:32.120 getting that Chinese takeaway last night.
00:42:34.480 I was talking about important ideas, ideas that matter.
00:42:37.360 So was I.
00:42:38.440 That lemon chicken was...
00:42:41.360 Well, there's the battle of ideas.
00:42:42.960 Ooh, is that a competition between the best takeaways?
00:42:46.200 Because I know which one would definitely win.
00:42:48.640 Right, if I promised to buy you some lemon chicken,
00:42:51.200 will you shut up and do this ad with me? 0.94
00:42:53.840 Sir, yes, sir.
00:42:55.560 The battle of ideas is a free speech festival
00:42:58.440 which is held in Church House in London on the 15th and 16th of October.
00:43:03.920 They have a wide and diverse range of speakers from across the political spectrum
00:43:08.080 who debate the most important issues facing our society.
00:43:11.940 I'll be there in conversation about my book, An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West.
00:43:18.240 And Frances is doing a panel as well. 0.92
00:43:20.340 I love shopping for new jackets and boots this season.
00:43:23.580 And when I do, I always make sure I get cash back with Rakuten.
00:43:27.020 And it's not just fashion. You can earn cash back on electronics, beauty, travel, and more
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00:43:43.840 Download the Rakuten app or sign up at rakuten.ca. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. 0.97
00:43:50.440 whatever issue you're most passionate about you'll find it discussed at the battle of ideas
00:43:59.280 they have panels that will debate everything from big tech education the arts and free speech plus
00:44:06.140 the audience gets a chance to ask the panel questions as well like what's their favorite
00:44:12.140 no click on the link in the description and use the code to trigger 22 to get 13 off that's right
00:44:20.040 Click on the link in the description, use the code TRIGGER22 and get 13% off.
00:44:27.080 We'll see you at the Battle of Ideas in London.
00:44:29.920 Oh, and there's also a great Chinese round the corner.
00:44:35.900 Like Nigel said, the problem is, if this issue isn't being dealt with,
00:44:43.080 then what you get is what I call the Tommy Robinson factor,
00:44:47.220 to where you get somebody unpleasant who comes along,
00:44:51.020 points at an issue like grooming gangs and goes,
00:44:54.440 they're not doing anything, they're not listening to you,
00:44:57.640 they don't care, but I do and I will.
00:45:00.620 And that's a real danger for our democracy.
00:45:03.240 I 100% agree.
00:45:04.500 That's why it's so important.
00:45:05.860 You know, the state gets a grip on it.
00:45:09.080 And, you know, there are lots of reasons why it doesn't.
00:45:13.980 They're partly bureaucratic.
00:45:15.380 They're partly kind of cultural, I think,
00:45:17.220 why the police don't tackle some of these these issues and and they go go quite deep but you know
00:45:24.120 you can't you can't stop people caring about things and if the government doesn't respond
00:45:30.780 to their concerns then other people will respond to them and that's just the way it is and government
00:45:36.860 has to accept that because if let's say Labour win the election which is perfectly possible in
00:45:44.240 the next couple of years, that could well happen. I mean, they're going to be even worse at dealing
00:45:49.200 with this situation than Conservatives. Yeah, I think so, because they don't have any of the
00:45:53.760 sort of presumptions about how these things should work. I mean, they just will not have the will
00:45:59.280 to tackle it in any way. And we know, you know, a good chunk of the modern Labour party, the
00:46:05.520 membership, not the supporters, I think, for the membership, you know, don't really believe in
00:46:10.320 borders at all they don't really believe in the nation state as a concept uh at all and you know
00:46:17.460 there's no way they're going to be able to tackle this i really fear for things actually in those
00:46:21.660 circumstances do you think that this two-tier party system do you think it's it's got a future
00:46:27.640 because there's lots of people making perfectly valid criticisms about it david and going
00:46:32.260 who did the conservatives represent who did labor represent i i mean i think
00:46:38.180 every party's, every country's sort of political system
00:46:43.380 is determined by stuff that's quite deep
00:46:48.060 in the way the country works.
00:46:50.220 And I don't think you can just change bits of it
00:46:53.920 without having all kinds of unintended consequences.
00:46:56.960 I mean, the Fixed-Term Parliament Act's a good example of that,
00:47:00.080 where it was a bit bolted on from a PR-type system
00:47:04.480 and it never worked.
00:47:05.740 And in the end, we've had to get rid of it.
00:47:08.180 I mean, I think the advantages of our system,
00:47:11.140 so a short version is, yes, I think it can and should survive.
00:47:15.300 The advantage of it is that it forces parties to be coalitions themselves.
00:47:22.000 They can't become so ideological
00:47:24.260 and, you know, just respond to a very small niche of people.
00:47:29.340 They have to sort of have these sort of debates.
00:47:31.760 And the single-member constituency means people don't get,
00:47:35.540 you know, it's not possible to get completely out of touch
00:47:37.960 with what people are thinking in the way that
00:47:40.940 in some of the European PR systems where you're on a list
00:47:44.020 and you never meet an ordinary voter,
00:47:45.920 you just sort of lose touch.
00:47:49.620 So I think every system has the problems of its advantages,
00:47:54.080 but I think ours is the right one for us.
00:47:56.120 Because you do need fringe parties in many ways
00:48:00.220 to hold the bigger parties to account.
00:48:02.000 Like the Brexit party really needed to hold
00:48:04.260 the Conservative party's feet to the fire
00:48:06.700 to make sure that what people voted for was enacted.
00:48:10.620 Yeah, it did.
00:48:12.720 But I think that was a sort of freak situation in some ways.
00:48:18.180 It destroyed the Conservative Party briefly
00:48:20.700 in those European elections in 2019.
00:48:23.260 We were down to whatever it was, 9% nationally.
00:48:27.060 But it was a freak situation.
00:48:28.620 The constitution was breaking down.
00:48:30.740 A lot of the norms just were on hold.
00:48:33.900 But, you know, UKIP, you know, arguably took enough out of the Conservative vote to force the referendum when it was announced in 2013.
00:48:45.300 So, yeah, they have a function in the system.
00:48:48.460 But I don't think – I still think it's better for democracy to have, you know, a couple of big parties that represent world – different world views.
00:48:58.300 The problem with systems like that is when you get two parties that think the same thing about important issues like climate change, the obvious example recently, or to a large extent the pandemic, then there's no debate.
00:49:11.000 That's the problem.
00:49:12.300 So they have got to represent different views about things properly.
00:49:15.920 Right. And I was actually going to move on to global stuff, but speaking of climate change and net zero, what is, in your opinion, the future of that issue under the current Tory regime?
00:49:34.420 So I think, you know, I think.
00:49:37.780 Is it going to be a slash and burn? We're going to abandon net zero entirely?
00:49:41.940 I doubt it, because it's pretty well embedded as a target now, 2050.
00:49:49.880 But I do think that, you know, a lot of people think that we're rushing at it too fast and doing it in a way that, you know, makes no sense, that just deprives us of actual energy to power our economy.
00:50:03.020 And, you know, going at it in a way where government picks the route, you know, and all this sort of stuff about heat pumps and electric cars and all this kind of thing.
00:50:16.120 You know, government picking winners never works.
00:50:19.580 If you're going to do this, the rational way would be to have a carbon tax and just increase it a bit every year and let the market sort out what the best way of doing it was.
00:50:30.340 I don't know whether we'll do that.
00:50:32.220 But I think we will see much more focus on energy security, on energy cost, than on the so-called climate impact.
00:50:40.640 I mean, I just don't think we're in a climate emergency.
00:50:42.960 So I don't think this thing is as urgent as people say.
00:50:46.700 The one emergency we are in is the one that you refer to,
00:50:49.340 because I think particularly in the aftermath of the Russian invasion of Ukraine,
00:50:54.180 energy security, food security, and border security,
00:50:58.880 These issues, which we all pretended were not issues for quite a long time,
00:51:03.360 I think, ideologically, they've now come to the fore.
00:51:07.160 And the current prime minister and we as a country for a long time
00:51:12.380 are going to have to reckon with all of this.
00:51:16.220 The world is decoupling, it's deglobalizing.
00:51:20.120 How best to approach our role in that world for Britain?
00:51:26.240 Yeah, I think we, you know, it's the cliche, you know, we lost an empire, we didn't find a role.
00:51:32.940 Now we've lost the European Union and we're still looking around for a kind of international role.
00:51:38.740 I think we tend to underplay ourselves as a country.
00:51:42.200 I think people look at Britain from the outside much more than we really.
00:51:46.600 A hundred percent. I can promise you that.
00:51:49.000 When I speak to people where I'm from about Britain, their view of Britain is much more,
00:51:54.100 they see Britain and value it much higher than we do in this country.
00:51:58.600 Yeah, that's my experience when I was a diplomat.
00:52:03.420 I think we are still a pretty big economy.
00:52:07.040 We still stand for some important things.
00:52:10.060 I think it should be about resilience to a very large extent.
00:52:17.080 We're going to have to push up defence spending.
00:52:19.060 We're going to have to try and revive NATO properly
00:52:23.580 as a sort of serious security and defence organisation.
00:52:27.220 We've got things like the AUKUS pact with the Australians
00:52:30.020 and the Indo-Pacific tilt that I think is going to be important
00:52:34.120 as we sort of try and deter China.
00:52:37.880 I think we, you know, one of the things that I find people do react against a bit
00:52:42.280 is, you know, we can be a bit preachy about things.
00:52:45.260 And I kind of, I don't like our embassies going, you know, sort of endlessly going on demonstrations about this and that fashionable cause.
00:52:53.860 I think, you know, you've got to look at the world as it is a bit.
00:52:57.220 And, you know, sometimes that means dealing with people who you don't necessarily like very much or approve of everything they do.
00:53:05.020 But they've got stuff that you need, so you've got to, that's just the way the world is.
00:53:10.020 So a bit more realism about the world, a bit less preachiness, but a bit sort of standing up for things that we believe in.
00:53:20.380 I think Britain is a force for good, but we've got to put the money into sharing that, I would say.
00:53:28.900 And that's just beginning, really, this new role.
00:53:33.400 I agree with you. We do need to do that.
00:53:35.720 The problem is, David, is you look at the kids coming out of universities, you know, they, on the whole, seem to be very sceptical,
00:53:44.880 sceptical, seem to be very anti-British, there's constant focus on empire.
00:53:49.120 And look, you know, as somebody who has just read a little bit about it, obviously we weren't angels, but no empire is.
00:53:56.260 You know, people think that the Ottomans were woke.
00:53:59.940 So the problem is, is that we talk about this, and I think we can all agree on that.
00:54:05.020 But you look at the younger generations coming through the universities and you look at people who are more on the left and the Labour Party, they think completely differently.
00:54:15.240 I mean, how do we unify this country?
00:54:17.860 Yeah, I think it is. I mean, it's gone a long. We've gone a long way down this road.
00:54:22.800 That's the problem.
00:54:24.580 And I think one of the consequences of, you know,
00:54:29.080 the fact people in their 20s, 30s, maybe even 40s don't have a stake
00:54:32.820 is in society, you know, don't have a house,
00:54:36.220 maybe defer having kids till they're a bit late, this sort of thing,
00:54:39.460 is that they can sort of live in a world of kind of illusions
00:54:43.380 of, you know, how the world is and how it works for a bit longer
00:54:46.800 than they used to be able to.
00:54:48.880 and that that is part of of what we're seeing you know there's a kind of um sort of fantasy world
00:54:57.160 being created about how it works and how we got here and what is important to western civilization
00:55:05.240 and advanced economy and you know i actually think it's time for the government and people
00:55:12.900 like us to be you know even more assertive about that so i thought you know your your book constant
00:55:17.860 is great on this subject this is this is what has made us this is what is important in a western
00:55:23.540 society keep telling yourself about it because otherwise people start to think different things
00:55:29.560 but it's it's very difficult when university like i said before is telling these kids that
00:55:35.560 we're evil and we're wrong yeah i it's gone very deeply and i you know one of the this whole sort
00:55:41.660 of assault on Western culture and history and so on. One of the questions I ask myself
00:55:48.940 and I haven't heard people answer is, why is it happening? What has driven it? How have
00:55:58.380 we got to this point? And I see, you know, there are kind of two answers, I think. One
00:56:03.560 is that there's a bunch of sort of cultural Marxists, you know, going through the institutions
00:56:08.520 trying to destroy Western society in the universities and so on.
00:56:13.280 And the other is that this is just liberalism
00:56:16.020 sort of pushed to its nth degree.
00:56:18.900 As you knock over one taboo, you look for another taboo.
00:56:22.080 In order to stop that looking kind of absurd,
00:56:25.960 you have to create this sort of alternative reality
00:56:28.600 so that things don't look absurd.
00:56:30.680 And there is, you know, the sort of emperor new clothes thing can survive.
00:56:35.120 And I think that's actually more what we're seeing,
00:56:37.640 that the kind of liberalism, social liberalism that kind of started in the 60s in universities,
00:56:47.960 in the intellectual classes, has just been pushed and pushed and pushed so that there are no taboos
00:56:53.400 left. And that doesn't mean it was wrong to do what happened in the 60s, but it does mean that
00:56:59.080 sensible people have got to say, you're pushing this too far. The world isn't like this.
00:57:03.960 is like this.
00:57:06.520 And just be more honest about that.
00:57:09.460 David, I wish we could talk for longer,
00:57:11.600 but we're not as good negotiators as you said.
00:57:14.160 So the deal we did with the builders across the road
00:57:16.700 that they would stop building for a while is now expired.
00:57:19.880 And we're going to have to ask you our final question and wrap up.
00:57:24.340 What is the one thing that we're not talking about
00:57:26.380 that we really should be?
00:57:27.200 So I think it's the subject that we are talking about a bit but not enough and it's about devolution and the union of this country.
00:57:41.200 I think there is far too great an acceptance that the country has divided up or is divided up into four different units.
00:57:53.200 unit. We're in a sort of confederation because it is kind of convenient to everybody, but
00:58:00.700 it could be different. And meanwhile, we should let Scotland and Wales kind of do their own
00:58:06.200 thing and not worry too much about it. And, you know, I think it's hard to get people
00:58:11.600 in England to kind of care about what's happening in Scotland and increasingly in Wales, which
00:58:17.680 seems to be going down the same road now. And I think we've got to have an honest conversation
00:58:24.660 about where devolution has taken us, is undermining the unity of this nation state. And you go
00:58:36.060 to Germany, go to France, go to Italy, they would regard the kind of debate we have about
00:58:43.600 different components of this country is entirely bizarre. The idea you could just detach and
00:58:49.580 go a different way would be quite wrong. So I think we need, you know, it's very difficult.
00:58:55.100 People don't like, every time you sort of tell the SNP or the Welsh Labour Party that
00:59:02.720 it can't be like this, you get a sort of torrent of, you know, pushback. But we've got to start
00:59:08.960 having this conversation again. This is a unitary nation state. Devolution is one thing. A path to
00:59:16.400 independence is a different thing. And you've got to start pulling it back together again.
00:59:22.400 It was incredible to me that we essentially devolved our travel policy, who could come in
00:59:30.240 and out of the country during the pandemic, to the Scottish and Welsh governments who seem to be
00:59:35.900 allowed to do their own thing. Nobody thought that was what devolution was about. And it shouldn't
00:59:40.760 be what it's about. And we've got to pull that back. It will be very uncomfortable, but I think
00:59:45.800 it needs to be done. Lord David Frost, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming
00:59:50.100 on the show. Thank you. It's been great. Enjoyed it. And thank you guys for watching and listening.
00:59:53.980 We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or our show. All of them
00:59:59.040 go out at 7pm UK time. What are you most proud of achieving with the Brexit negotiations?
01:00:04.320 and is there anything you wish you could have achieved
01:00:07.060 but didn't?
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