TRIGGERnometry - Maryam Namazie on Islam, Tommy Robinson and Grooming Gangs

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.080 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:09.160 And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

00:00:15.620 At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:00:20.520 Our fantastic guest this week is a spokesperson for the Council of Ex-Muslims. 0.96

00:00:25.020 Mariam Namazi, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:26.620 Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.

00:00:28.280 Thank you so much for coming.

00:00:29.520 And for anyone who doesn't know, a lot of people obviously will know who you are.

00:00:32.560 But for people who don't, tell us a little bit, just a little bit about your back story

00:00:37.440 and how have you come to be so passionate about the issues that you talk about that we'll get into.

00:00:41.100 Well, I'm originally from Iran, and so I was raised as a Muslim, of course.

00:00:48.180 And after the Iranian revolution, it became an Islamic state, even though the revolution wasn't Islamic.

00:00:55.320 So we left the country.

00:00:56.620 So I became involved in refugee rights issues, given my own experiences, of course, opposition to the Islamic State, because it was just horrible, you know, to live under it. 0.99

00:01:10.540 And the results of it continues to today.

00:01:13.440 And so that's what I've sort of been campaigning on, issues around Islam, Islamism, women's rights, secularism, and of course, refugee rights.

00:01:22.540 And I have so many questions to ask you.

00:01:25.420 We both do.

00:01:26.540 most of which I'm quite reluctant to ask because these are very difficult issues to talk about.

00:01:32.460 So can you just outline for us, first of all, one of the things I think is really important to demarcate is the difference between Muslims as people,

00:01:41.340 Islam as a religion, and Islamism as a more of a, you probably would say, political ideology.

00:01:46.240 So can you just explain to us and our viewers what are those things and how to separate them?

00:01:50.980 Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite simple to separate them.

00:01:53.540 I don't know why everybody has a difficult task doing it.

00:01:56.500 And I think if you compare it with the Christian right, because a lot of progressive people will be against the church, for example, against its laws regarding women, for example, the Christian rights, assault on abortion rights, reproductive rights, women's rights, for example, in the U.S. or in Poland.

00:02:15.800 And then there's Christianity, which a lot of free thinkers will make fun of Christianity, will make fun of Jesus, for example.

00:02:22.700 you have comedy shows with Jesus in a nappy, and then you've got Christians. And you can make fun 1.00

00:02:28.380 of Christianity and make fun of the Christian right, oppose the Christian right, and nobody

00:02:32.720 says you're attacking Christians, you know, or you're bigoted against Christians. It's the exact 1.00

00:02:37.300 same thing. I don't know why it's so difficult to understand. You know, we come from Muslim

00:02:41.480 backgrounds. A lot of our family members are still Muslims. And, you know, racists can't tell

00:02:46.680 any one of us apart anyway. So if you think that, you know, for us, we think, oh, we're safe because

00:02:51.780 they're only going to attack the Muslims. I mean, they attack Sikhs thinking they're Muslims. They 1.00

00:02:55.560 can't tell anyone from anyone. You know, so we don't want to be inciting racism. Racism affects

00:03:03.020 ex-Muslims too. It affects our families too. But it's a question of saying, look, we're free

00:03:08.660 thinkers. We want to criticize the Islamic right, like the Christian right. We want to be able to 1.00

00:03:16.340 criticize Islam as a ridiculous idea, as all religions are. But that's not the same as attacking 0.99

00:03:21.800 Muslims. That's not the same as attacking people. And I think it's something that's conflated as a

00:03:27.900 way really of silencing criticism. I mean, that's what's happened. And the Islamic movement is doing 1.00

00:03:33.260 that, trying to silence criticism. It's a way of imposing blasphemy laws here in Europe where

00:03:39.700 blasphemy laws don't exist. So in Iran, nobody will accuse you of Islamophobia or bigotry against

00:03:45.980 Muslims. They'll call you an apostate, a blasphemer, and you go to prison and you get the death penalty 0.93

00:03:50.680 for it. Here, they use terms like Islamophobia and bigotry and racism as a way of imposing those

00:03:58.940 laws, you know, de facto rather than in the law. Do you know what I mean? I do know what you mean,

00:04:04.400 but here's where the difficulty comes in because I understand both of us are non-believers and we

00:04:09.840 also think that there's a lot of problems with all religions. Maybe Islam in particular has certain 1.00

00:04:15.280 challenges as well but if one of us was to say what you've just said well that's it we're

00:04:20.640 islamophobic we're racist we're bigoted and and that is difficult isn't it well i mean we get

00:04:27.480 accused of that too so it's it's people who are from you get accused of being islamophobic of

00:04:32.360 course yeah of inside of being uncle toms of being coconuts of being um a native informants

00:04:40.360 you know of promoting a neo-colonial agenda these are things they say to us as well

00:04:44.940 And I think that, you know, it's good that people are concerned about racism. That's thanks to a huge anti-racist movement that has made it difficult to be racist and bigoted. That's something positive. And I think it's nice that people are concerned about racism. And that's a great thing, you know, but I think it's important to say that, you know, great that we're concerned with racism, but criticizing the religious right or criticizing bad ideas has nothing to do with racism.

00:05:13.020 And I do understand that you have a far right that is very savvy, like the Islamists are very savvy. 0.96

00:05:19.000 They use human rights language.

00:05:20.640 They even use anti-racist language as a way of covering themselves.

00:05:25.760 So you'll have the EDL or Tommy Robinson or Britain First and these sort of groups saying,

00:05:31.320 we're not attacking Muslims, we're anti-Islam and we're anti-Islamism using this sort of language as well.

00:05:36.880 But really, you can see that their politics are focused on migrants, on Muslims, on deportations, on keeping people out, on never recognizing people of different backgrounds as citizens and equal citizens.

00:05:49.980 You know, they're always the other.

00:05:51.640 They never really belong, according to them.

00:05:54.540 The proper Europe is a white Christian Europe, according to them.

00:05:58.260 So you can see how people can get confused because you do have the far right using similar language.

00:06:03.600 But I think, you know, again, I think it's very simple.

00:06:06.180 It's like I say I'm a women's rights campaigner.

00:06:09.480 George Bush said he attacked Iraq for women's rights.

00:06:12.620 Well, who do you believe?

00:06:14.100 Do you know what I mean?

00:06:14.840 It's simple. 0.89

00:06:15.620 If someone's actually killing women and saying they're protecting them, if they're throwing bombs on countries and saying it's for human rights, well, then I think your brain can work a little bit and say, well, they're pretending in the same way that the Islamists say Islam is a religion of peace while they're beheading you. 0.67

00:06:33.100 So I think you can tell the difference.

00:06:34.920 And I think it's just asking people to use their critical faculties.

00:06:39.620 You know, when it comes to Islam, it seems as if everybody has a lobotomy. 1.00

00:06:43.420 You know, the same principles and ethics we would use on other issues.

00:06:49.320 Somehow, when it comes to Islam, we're incapable of doing it. 1.00

00:06:52.180 Before Francis jump in, let me just finish this line of questioning.

00:06:55.540 He never lets me talk.

00:06:57.900 It's better for everybody that way.

00:07:00.280 I'm very Russian of you.

00:07:01.800 Yes, I talk.

00:07:02.640 I ask questions. You listen. Just give me one more. You mentioned this phrase, Islam is a religion of peace. And whenever there's a terrorist attack by Islamists and jihadis in this country or anywhere else in Europe, that seems to always be the line.

00:07:25.340 Islam is a religion of peace. You can't talk about it. Even open-minded people like us who want to understand where different people are coming from and are not blaming whole groups of people for certain things. You can't say that, particularly as a white person. You can't say that. But even as you said yourself, as someone who's from Iran, was brought up as a Muslim, saying Islam is not a religion of peace, which I imagine you believe, it's impossible.

00:07:52.100 So can you just talk to us about why you don't think Islam is a religion of peace?

00:07:56.260 I mean, I don't think any religion is a religion of peace. 0.85

00:07:58.640 I mean, religion is based on, you know, murdering anyone who is a heretic, an apostate. 1.00

00:08:05.080 You know, you've got the Spanish Inquisitions. 0.93

00:08:07.220 We've got historical examples.

00:08:08.780 We've got present day examples.

00:08:10.680 And the Islamic movement has power in many countries. 0.95

00:08:14.460 They're actually crucifying people in the street, hanging people off of cranes for apostasy, for blasphemy, for being gay. 0.98

00:08:21.060 they're stoning people to death in the streets. So, you know, it's not a hypothetical discussion 0.98

00:08:26.120 to say that Islam or any religion is not peaceful. I think religion actually is, you know, the

00:08:32.880 antithesis of peace and justice. And in fact, you know, it's funny because they always talk about

00:08:38.520 religious morality, but really it's immorality from an ethical point of view. You know, so many 0.99

00:08:44.300 of, you know, just to give you an example, in Islam, it's immoral to have sex outside of marriage. 0.99

00:08:48.880 So you have sex with someone you love, but it's perfectly fine to have child marriage, which is pedophilia and child rape. 0.90

00:08:54.720 You know, it's it's it's not possible to hold hands with your partner, someone you love on the street, because that's considered sexual mixing. 0.99

00:09:02.300 But it's perfectly fine to specify the size of stone to stone someone to death for for having an adulterous relationship or for being a homosexual. 0.97

00:09:11.420 It's perfectly fine to throw someone off a building because they're gay. But, you know, it's haram to eat during Ramadan. 1.00

00:09:17.560 I mean, it's just the unethical nature of all religious precepts.

00:09:23.480 I think it's clear.

00:09:24.400 I mean, I think the problem is because religion is treated with such kid gloves

00:09:28.480 and there's so much respect for something that is so not worthy of any respect, you know.

00:09:34.100 And so I know you don't look very happy.

00:09:36.480 No, no, no, no.

00:09:37.780 It's just his face.

00:09:39.340 That's my face.

00:09:40.620 Because I get that a lot when I'm speaking to people.

00:09:42.740 Francis probably agrees with you even more than I do.

00:09:44.640 So I think, yeah. So saying Islam is a religion of peace, it's just, you know, it's nonsense. It's not true by any measure. You just have to, you know, yeah, they'll say, and let me say this, my dad, who's a Muslim, is the loveliest, kindest person in the world. He wouldn't hurt a fly.

00:10:00.440 So again, I'm not saying that Muslims are like that, or Christians are like what the Bible says, or Jews are like what the Torah says. You know, in the Torah, for example, men pray thanking God that they weren't born women. 0.67

00:10:13.640 You know, there's so many examples of that in all religions, because I think people are better than their religions because people change according and adapt according to the age that they live in.

00:10:25.460 And books really remain the same.

00:10:27.860 And that's why interpretation is such a big thing, because people do interpret things the way they want.

00:10:32.660 But I think Islam is not at all peaceful. 1.00

00:10:35.200 And I understand why people say it, because they don't want Muslims to be targeted.

00:10:38.860 And rightfully so, you know, now in Sri Lanka, after the attack on the church, Muslims are being dragged out of their homes, their shops are being burnt down, they haven't done anything, you know, and we've got lots of ex-Muslims who've had to flee the city because, of course, they're also considered Muslims, and they've lost their homes, they're homeless. 1.00

00:10:58.560 So again, you can understand why people say that,

00:11:01.380 but I think that's going about it the wrong way

00:11:03.540 because everybody knows that's not true

00:11:06.240 and you're just helping to not discuss the truth

00:11:10.140 and you're sort of making Muslims a target

00:11:13.260 by not saying the truth about things.

00:11:15.520 And I think that's where we need to be very clear.

00:11:18.660 Target beliefs, target religious right movements.

00:11:21.180 Never, ever is targeting people permissible in any circumstance.

00:11:25.440 I mean I think that's a very very important and powerful message because you do see a lot of you

00:11:32.260 know people targeting individual people you know you know you get horrible stories about hijabs

00:11:37.020 getting ripped off people and it's just absolutely heartbreaking the words that I hear bandied about

00:11:42.920 all the time and that I hear and that we've used already in this interview is Islamophobia and I

00:11:49.560 don't even know what that means could you clarify for myself and for the listeners what is what

00:11:55.280 What is the meaning of the word and how is it used?

00:12:00.540 And sometimes I see in order to shut down debate and conversation.

00:12:04.320 Yeah, I mean, I think there's a big problem with this word.

00:12:08.300 And the problem is that, one, it's become mainstream.

00:12:11.200 So it's adopted by the UN, it's adopted by various, you know, in British.

00:12:16.620 Now the British government has adopted it and lots of parties are adopting it.

00:12:21.340 And there's an all-parliamentary group that's also put forward this term and explained it.

00:12:29.280 And basically, it implies that it's bigotry against Muslims.

00:12:35.080 But there's a problem because it sort of uses the word Islam, which is a religion, rather than saying Muslim phobia. 0.87

00:12:42.740 I would be perfectly happy with that term, like xenophobia, which is a phobia against foreigners, like homophobia, a phobia against gay people. 0.96

00:12:51.040 these are discrimination and bigotry against people, gay people, migrants, Muslims. But

00:12:57.540 Islamophobia is Islam is an idea. And it's fine if people have a phobia of it. You know, 1.00

00:13:03.980 I have a phobia about fascism. You know, I don't like it. And I'll stand up against it wherever I

00:13:09.640 can. It's the same with religion for me, I do have a phobia, a dislike of religions as well,

00:13:15.540 And so to compare that with bigotry against people is really problematic.

00:13:21.660 And it's something that is being used as a way of somehow conflating criticism of Islam,

00:13:28.700 criticizing Islamism with an attack on Muslims.

00:13:32.460 And so it becomes impossible to really say anything for a lot of people.

00:13:39.260 I did a stint of work when I was a supply teacher,

00:13:42.280 and I worked in an Islamic primary school in South London.

00:13:46.140 And in the afternoon, the children had Islamic studies, as it was called,

00:13:51.220 and they sat down.

00:13:52.060 And these were children in year two.

00:13:53.620 You didn't teach that, did you?

00:13:54.500 No, no, I didn't.

00:13:57.320 I didn't.

00:13:58.120 I could just see you reading the Quran.

00:13:59.040 That would have been really interesting.

00:14:02.460 Right, and at this point, no, and it sounds awful in my accent as well.

00:14:07.240 But, however, I do have a racist voice, I realise that.

00:14:10.820 but um there was one point because i sat in and i had to observe it and all the rest of it and then

00:14:17.160 i marked books at the back and i remember the imam sat down with his children who was six and

00:14:21.360 seven years old and was talking about jesus and he said um explained that the reason that jesus

00:14:29.280 was murdered was because the jews were jealous of him and he repeated the jews four or five times

00:14:35.720 and at this point I was sitting there going

00:14:37.920 at what point does this start to creep into indoctrination

00:14:42.020 these children have no idea of Judaism

00:14:44.540 or what a Jewish person is 0.97

00:14:46.520 and repeating the words you know the Jews killed him 0.67

00:14:49.140 and the Jews because they were jealous of him

00:14:51.400 and I'm just there and I got incredibly uncomfortable at that point

00:14:55.780 that you've got these children who are completely innocent

00:14:58.040 and repeating the word Jews constantly

00:15:00.620 and saying that they're the reason that Jesus died

00:15:05.300 I mean, that's one of the basis of anti-Semitism as well, isn't it? I mean, even not just Islamic anti-Semitism, but Christian anti-Semitism, too. And I think, again, this is why it's really important that we don't have religion in schools. 0.98

00:15:22.160 I think religion is fine as we teach history or, you know, in the sense of talking about different religions so people know, you know, that there are different religions in the world, but that there are also people who are atheists and humanists and free thinkers. 0.98

00:15:37.640 And not as a form of indoctrination, but historically what religions have done, because they've done a lot of bad shit in the world, you know. 1.00

00:15:45.200 And it would be good for kids to know that rather than always having this religion is this, religion is all lovely and cuddly, whilst also giving really sinister messages about the religion that you don't like, you know, or you want the kids to move away from. 0.91

00:16:01.020 And I think it does lead to indoctrination.

00:16:04.360 I mean, even in Christian schools, which are not as bad as Islamic schools today, right, you do have this concept of heaven and hell. 1.00

00:16:13.900 And it does instill fear in children.

00:16:16.620 You know, it's quite abusive when the psychological abuse of it is quite harsh, especially if kids believe it and it scares them.

00:16:24.920 And I've met lots of, you know, adults who are really frightened of these concepts when they were children.

00:16:30.400 And it can be such a scary thing.

00:16:31.880 So I think it's good for kids to learn about things, but not in a way that indoctrinates them.

00:16:37.460 Having an imam come to a school is really, I think, you know, it's dangerous for children. 1.00

00:16:45.020 And it is because they do have this idea of indoctrination in mind.

00:16:50.260 I don't know if you saw, I wish I had the details of it, but there was this, I think I'm going to say in Egypt,

00:16:57.520 there was this, the Saudi government had given a lot of money for sort of a theological department at this university.

00:17:07.460 And I was reading how the professor who was chair of that department had been fired because the Saudi, one of the representatives of the Saudi government was wanting to see his notes and wanted him to say things like Islam is a better religion than the other religions.

00:17:27.300 and he was angry that he was also teaching other religions and not just Islam.

00:17:31.800 So it does, you know, there is a lot of indoctrination and this idea of indoctrination

00:17:36.420 and trying to veer people to thinking Islam is the best religion.

00:17:40.700 And what does that come with?

00:17:42.280 You know, the fact that girls and boys need to be separate, 0.97

00:17:45.480 girls need to be modest and be covered up. 1.00

00:17:49.200 You know, they shouldn't sing, their voices shouldn't be too loud,

00:17:52.160 they shouldn't laugh out loud, they shouldn't be in sports.

00:17:54.680 That's all the things that it comes with.

00:17:56.480 And imagine saying this to little kids, you know, you heard the Jewish sermon, but there's all these other sermons as well about girls and modesty and, you know, superiority of boys, which is so detrimental to child development. 0.81

00:18:12.900 And where do you actually stand on the hijab?

00:18:15.040 Do you and at what point do you think because I taught in a primary school and you'd see little girls of the age of five, six years old and they'd be wearing them sometimes even younger?

00:18:24.320 Yeah.

00:18:24.800 Where do you stand on it? Do you agree with it? Do you disagree and why?

00:18:29.340 Well, I mean, I think, first of all, five or six-year-olds, it even goes against Islamic teachings

00:18:33.840 because you're not supposed to wear the veil until you're a woman.

00:18:38.200 And that's after puberty, right?

00:18:39.880 So like in Iran, for example, it's when you start going to school at the age of seven.

00:18:46.080 I know a lot of families living in the West, they veil their kids younger 1.00

00:18:50.440 because they know if they let them not be veiled until they're seven or eight,

00:18:54.140 they're not going to want to wear it anymore because you do really feel the restriction of it

00:18:58.580 and so I think part of it is just trying to get them used to it like caging a bird you know you

00:19:05.080 get used to it and then it becomes natural for you and you kind of feel naked if you don't go

00:19:10.140 out if you go out with it so I think but on the veil I think it's there's no yes right or wrong

00:19:16.860 answer in the sense that I think it's more complex for me for me I think child veiling is a form of

00:19:23.400 child abuse because the veil represents, basically tells a girl that her body is something that 0.93

00:19:30.580 causes fitna or chaos in society if it's not covered up.

00:19:34.460 So I had someone in a debate in Britain tell me, an imam, say that if we don't have gender

00:19:40.800 segregation, which again the veil is a symbol of, it segregates you from men.

00:19:46.460 If you don't have gender segregation, it's going to lead to adultery and sex and we're 0.98

00:19:51.180 going to have to stone people. 0.84

00:19:52.260 So isn't it better that we have gender segregation and we veil women? 1.00

00:19:55.720 So this is the perverted, ethical, unethical, really, mindset of a religion,

00:20:01.800 obsessed with women's bodies, obsessed with girls' bodies.

00:20:04.800 So I do think with girls, it's so unethical because they don't get sunlight in their hair. 1.00

00:20:10.260 What it means is they have to be separate from boys, so you can't be friends with boys anymore.

00:20:14.100 You can't swim. You can't dance.

00:20:17.360 You have to sit at the back of the classroom.

00:20:19.420 That's all what it represents. So it affects child development. And what does it tell a girl growing up that, you know, your body is so disgusting? That's why we all have such huge body image problems. You know, I mean, women everywhere do. But we especially, you know, our bodies are filthy, you know, according to how we've been raised, you know, which is why I did nude protest as well, because it was so difficult for me, but also a way of just saying I'm not going to allow that to to take hold.

00:20:46.560 But when it comes to adult women, I think, you know, if a woman wants to wear a veil, well, you know, she has a right to wear a veil.

00:20:54.020 And I use the term right, you know, carefully because rights are meant to liberate you, not to oppress you.

00:21:03.420 But I think that people, if they want to wear it, they can as adults.

00:21:08.260 But child veiling is child abuse.

00:21:10.020 And I think if you represent a secular state, like as a teacher or if you're a judge, then you shouldn't be wearing religious symbols, you know.

00:21:19.140 So I have – but on the borqa, I think it should be banned basically because I do think it's a body bag for women and it's just so – I mean, people who defend it should actually walk in it for half an hour to see how it feels. 1.00

00:21:34.000 It is like being buried alive in my opinion.

00:21:36.900 right well and the thing you say about people's rights as well i mean from what i know a lot of

00:21:43.180 women are put in a position where they they're not forced to but you know they're very strongly 1.00

00:21:49.980 encouraged to wear the veil or the burqa because male relatives insist on it or whatever that's

00:21:55.840 not really a right that someone's exercising is it that's a form of compulsion being used

00:21:59.940 coercion coercion yeah definitely i think you know this whole idea of saying it's a right and a choice

00:22:05.860 is the fact that you've submitted to something

00:22:11.460 doesn't make it a right-hand choice, you know,

00:22:13.320 and I think that's the distinction.

00:22:15.220 Yeah, you can submit to a lot of things

00:22:17.540 even though you might not want to,

00:22:20.520 but that's just the way things are meant to be

00:22:22.420 and you have to do them sort of thing.

00:22:24.400 And there's so much pressure, you know.

00:22:26.100 I mean, if you, like, talk to a lot of ex-Muslims,

00:22:29.740 you know, who obviously they look Muslim,

00:22:32.400 they live in Muslim areas,

00:22:33.500 and, you know, they're not fasting.

00:22:36.460 The pressure, you know, you're not fasting.

00:22:38.980 You know, the sort of, there's this constant pressure.

00:22:41.480 So you end up then hiding if you're eating or you pretend that you are.

00:22:45.300 You know, so, yeah, you can say they've chosen not to fast,

00:22:48.780 but it's not that easy when you are in that situation.

00:22:52.360 The veil also, you know, people will say it's a choice.

00:22:55.660 But I'd ask those same women, if you want to remove that veil today, 1.00

00:22:58.480 would you be able to do it?

00:22:59.880 And most likely, no.

00:23:01.020 You know, most likely it would be very, very difficult to remove the veil, near impossible.

00:23:06.740 And we've had members who've done it.

00:23:08.560 You lose everything in many instances, your family, your friends, you know, and everyone that you knew.

00:23:16.500 And so it's, you know.

00:23:18.440 It doesn't sound like a right.

00:23:19.660 No, exactly.

00:23:20.140 If you have a right to something, you should have a right to go in and out of it when you choose.

00:23:24.060 If you have a right to religion, you should have a right to leave religion. 1.00

00:23:26.700 When it's not that simple, then there's a problem, isn't there?

00:23:29.060 And I think with the veil, that's exactly the case.

00:23:31.820 And I find it incredible that you just referred to yourself as an ex-Muslim.

00:23:35.740 I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school.

00:23:37.700 I would never refer to myself as an ex-Catholic.

00:23:39.840 I'd just go, I'm an atheist and I don't believe it anymore.

00:23:42.300 And it was as simple as that.

00:23:43.600 But it doesn't sound as simple as that in Islam.

00:23:46.300 Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the whole, to be honest, I don't even like the ex-Muslim term myself.

00:23:51.000 And I also thought I was an atheist.

00:23:53.820 I was an atheist long before I was an ex-Muslim.

00:23:56.060 But I think the term is really important for us because it's a way of challenging many ideas.

00:24:04.020 One, the idea that, you know, Muslims are a homogenous community and everybody agrees with ISIS and the Islamic State of Iran and Saudi Arabia or the Muslim Council of Britain or the local imam.

00:24:17.580 No, it's also like any group of people, there are so many differences of opinion in there, there are feminists in there, there are socialists in there, there are atheists in there.

00:24:27.320 So saying ex-Muslim sort of breaks that idea that minorities are homogenous and dissent exists in our communities and we have a right to speak out and criticize ideas that we think are misogynist and homophobic and inhuman.

00:24:41.220 And also, it's, you know, because it's so difficult to criticize Islam or to leave Islam.

00:24:51.520 Of course, you know, in, I don't know, 13 countries, you can be executed for blasphemy.

00:24:57.360 In 11, you can be executed for being an apostate.

00:25:01.240 Given that situation, it's important to say we're ex-Muslims, we're apostates, 0.92

00:25:05.720 because it's a way of challenging it and saying that, you know, you say we don't exist,

00:25:10.400 or you try to silence us when you do find out that we exist.

00:25:13.860 So this is a way of us coming out publicly and saying we exist.

00:25:17.880 And the public renunciation is a form of resistance as well, you know.

00:25:23.220 So from that situation, it's important.

00:25:25.780 But for me, you know, I come from an Iranian background

00:25:27.720 where there is quite a large anti-Islamic backlash in Iran.

00:25:32.480 I mean, it's, you know, the mullahs are despised, you know. 0.85

00:25:35.860 I mean, there was a funny story where, you know,

00:25:38.620 because our parliament is full of mullahs, right, because it's an Islamic state.

00:25:42.280 And he came late to the parliamentary session, and it was televised,

00:25:45.820 and he was saying that he couldn't get a cab dressed up as a mullah.

00:25:49.140 So he had to go home and wear street clothes, like normal trousers and a shirt,

00:25:53.520 before a taxi would pick him up to take him to the assembly.

00:25:58.420 You know, so there is that backlash.

00:25:59.720 So for me, it was quite normal to say ex-Muslim atheist. 0.99

00:26:03.020 But when I started the Council for Ex-Muslims in Britain,

00:26:05.640 We couldn't find one non-Iranian, you know, to do it, not one. 1.00

00:26:09.420 And, of course, it's changed.

00:26:10.640 The world has changed so much now because of social media.

00:26:13.980 It's changed as if it's been 100 years, you know, that everybody calls themselves ex-Muslims.

00:26:19.040 There are so many ex-Muslims now, so many groups.

00:26:21.500 You can't even tell who's, you know, where it started or when it started.

00:26:25.620 But that surprised me that there was so much fear for people who were born and raised in Britain.

00:26:32.240 And that really shocked me because it was so easy for us from coming from Iran, you know.

00:26:38.060 Constance, can I ask one question?

00:26:39.620 No.

00:26:40.980 And then this is a story that happened at my school before I joined.

00:26:46.420 And I remember my colleague telling me about it and I found it profoundly shocking.

00:26:50.140 It's a very, very distressing story.

00:26:52.440 So I used to work in a primary school in East London.

00:26:55.380 And one of the girls that we was at my school, she used to get the imam to come and teach her and teach her Arabic and Islamic studies.

00:27:02.240 one-to-one and it turned out that the eventually that the imam was abusing her and so the mum came

00:27:09.820 in and the school had to talk to her and had to persuade her to report him okay because other

00:27:15.920 because she didn't want to do it because in one in one sense it was she would be ostracized

00:27:19.840 from her community and also the girl because she's had some form of sexual contact would be deemed to

00:27:25.540 be impure right and would therefore be again ostracized from the community and i remember

00:27:30.300 hearing that story I just I just I don't think I've ever felt that sad yeah I mean I think it

00:27:37.660 happens a lot I mean it happens in the Christian church as well yeah yeah absolutely I mean it's

00:27:41.540 so well known and I think it's actually maybe even more pervasive I would think yeah you know 0.93

00:27:47.280 in Islamic schools and mosques where corporate punishment is norm sexual violence sexual abuse

00:27:54.020 I mean we have lots and lots of ex-Muslims who've been through things like that you know and again 0.55

00:28:00.180 And the shame, you know, that's, there is, I mean, I think it's also true for those who've been abused in the church as well.

00:28:07.100 There is a lot of shame and stigma, especially when it happens to you when you're young.

00:28:11.480 You wonder, you know, the shame of it, was I responsible?

00:28:14.960 Whereas, of course, there's no way a child is ever, anyone's responsible for rape or sexual abuse, let alone a child.

00:28:21.980 But I think there is that stigma, like you say, and this fact that if you come out, it costs you so much, you know.

00:28:29.180 and unfortunately I think I don't know there's this thing where everybody's so worried about

00:28:35.100 what everybody else says and what everybody thinks and there is a lot of times you know

00:28:40.380 parents that shun their children I wonder if they would do that if they lived outside of that

00:28:47.000 community where they weren't so worried about what people would say and do you know and so much of it

00:28:53.180 is that pressure so you're not just thinking about your daughter you're thinking what will people say

00:28:57.260 what would they say about her? What would they say about us? And more likely, there'll be more

00:29:02.640 pressure on them than on the mullah or imam or whoever. Yeah. I wanted to go back a little bit

00:29:09.700 to what you would, you criticize all religion, which I totally understand. And you mentioned, 1.00

00:29:17.820 you know, the Inquisition or whatever it might be. And there's no question that, for example,

00:29:21.840 at the time of the Inquisition, the Islamic world was far more developed and progressive

00:29:27.900 in many ways.

00:29:29.200 Oh, so they say, yeah.

00:29:30.560 Okay.

00:29:32.080 But certainly if you look in terms of mathematics and architecture and scientific development

00:29:37.640 and in some ways even tolerance of non-believers, you could argue it was more tolerant than the

00:29:44.680 Christian world.

00:29:45.180 So certainly in that time, you could say quite credibly that Christians were being barbaric towards heretics, etc.

00:29:53.780 And is it unfair to say that now in the times that we live in now, Islam has the lead, if you like, in terms of, you know, violence, terrorism, oppression of women, treatment of minorities, etc.

00:30:11.980 Is it not the case that right now, in this moment in time, Islam is more extreme in those things, in terms of practice? 0.93

00:30:21.280 Maybe in the books it's all the same, but in terms of practice.

00:30:24.880 But, you know, for me, I think I would say, well, I focus on Islam.

00:30:29.060 So for me, I think it is a major threat to world peace and rights and so on and so forth.

00:30:34.400 But I do think that it's that all religions are capable of it.

00:30:38.140 And I do think that if they don't do it, it's because they don't have the access to power that Islamic states do. 1.00

00:30:45.820 But the minute they do, they will do the same.

00:30:49.320 I mean, if you look at, for example, the white nationalists, their politics is based on the Bible, for example. 0.91

00:30:57.420 And, you know, in the U.S., they've killed more people than the Islamists have. 0.99

00:31:02.940 And we're seeing a rise of white supremacists here in Europe as well. 0.91

00:31:08.140 And look at the U.S. now.

00:31:10.040 They've got states that are outlawing abortion or making abortion really difficult.

00:31:14.620 So the more power they have, you do see the effects on women's rights, on human rights, on gay rights. 0.96

00:31:23.560 And, you know, and again, in places in Africa, for example, where children who are a bit disobedient are considered witches and that they're thrown out or they're made to eat pieces of their own flesh.

00:31:36.140 I mean, these are things that the church there, in Nigeria, for example, encourages.

00:31:41.340 So I do think that a nice, cuddly religion is one that has no power, and they're forced to, you know, do soup kitchens and help the homeless.

00:31:49.280 And even then, their sinister messages are always there, you know.

00:31:53.240 You need to come to church, and then we'll give you some food to eat, you know.

00:31:57.040 Come for the prayer session, and then we'll give you a bed.

00:31:59.940 There's always that sort of attempts to indoctrinate vulnerable people, which makes it even more outrageous, you know, because it's people at their lowest point that they're trying to help, you know.

00:32:12.780 So I think with Islam, we're seeing the true face of religion because it's got the power to do, to put its, you know, practice where its thoughts are.

00:32:26.000 What about someone like the UK, for example? I think it's reasonable to argue Islam isn't the dominant religion of the UK. Yeah, we do have terrorist attacks here and things like that that we don't have from Jews or Christians or whatever. And this is why I said we had lots of questions that we were kind of reluctant to ask because it's a very difficult thing. I'm not suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists or whatever.

00:32:49.400 Of course. But if you look up on the news and you see a terrorist attack in this country with a suicide bomber, you kind of know where that's coming from. Do you know what I mean? 0.92

00:32:57.640 Yeah, of course. A hundred percent. I agree. But I think, for example, the Jewish settlers in Palestinian territories, they are honestly, they are the Jewish right, you know, and the Christian right that, for example, killed the MP here in Britain. 0.94

00:33:16.860 Joe Cox.

00:33:17.240 Yeah, Joe Cox, or, for example, attacked the mosques in New Zealand.

00:33:22.700 You know, you've got, you know, the Buddhists, right? 0.99

00:33:24.880 The Buddhists are supposedly the loveliest, kindest people, 0.76

00:33:27.540 but they are massacring Muslims in Myanmar and Sri Lanka, yeah? 0.74

00:33:35.120 Or now, look at what's happening in Sri Lanka after the attack on the churches.

00:33:42.060 Muslims, I don't know if you've seen some of the videos,

00:33:44.260 They are so heartbreaking of just Muslims who are going about their business, being dragged into the streets, being attacked by mobs, and they're Buddhists who are doing it, you know, a Buddhist majority. 0.75

00:33:56.700 And also in India, for example, we've seen the rise of the Hindu, right?

00:34:01.740 You know how many people, how many Muslims have been killed in India for eating beef or for selling beef because the cow is sacred in India?

00:34:10.100 I mean, I was looking at a map with all these dots of people who've been killed.

00:34:15.020 It's a huge number.

00:34:16.380 We don't even hear about it.

00:34:18.060 You know, and you've got Hindu right beating couples who are celebrating Valentine's Day in India. 1.00

00:34:24.180 I mean, India is an old secular state, you know.

00:34:27.640 So these are things that we're seeing a rise of that weren't there 30, 40 years ago.

00:34:32.620 You know, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, it was not like that 40 years ago either.

00:34:36.860 You know, if you look at pictures of our countries, it was completely different.

00:34:41.560 So in 40 years, look what they've done.

00:34:43.680 You know, they have made life hell for so many people.

00:34:46.660 Give the Hindu right 40 years. 1.00

00:34:48.460 Give the Christian right 40 years. 1.00

00:34:50.300 Give the Jewish right 40 years. 1.00

00:34:51.480 They can do the exact same things.

00:34:54.200 And I think that's why it's important to focus on Islam, of course, but also not to 0.99

00:34:59.180 forget that the religious right, if they have power, it can be really, really bleak for

00:35:05.300 people um you know everywhere so it's not just islam and islamism that's the problem one thing

00:35:12.200 that has always baffled me about every religion practically is why it's so obsessed with with

00:35:16.900 homosexuality yeah i mean so what i don't get it i don't understand and it seems to be every 0.58

00:35:24.700 religion as well yeah i mean it's interesting because i think um you know i don't know

00:35:30.760 obviously religion has this thing of wanting to make everything uniform, of course.

00:35:40.000 But I think it also comes back, I mean, that's my take on it, it might be totally crazy,

00:35:44.220 comes back to the obsession on women because, you know,

00:35:48.320 they're concerned that they might be attracted to another man.

00:35:51.580 And, well, men you can't veil. 0.55

00:35:53.840 And that's why men have to have beards and they have to be unkempt 0.99

00:35:58.040 so you don't mistake them for a girl and have sex with them. 1.00

00:36:00.580 You're doing great on that. 0.99

00:36:01.820 Yeah.

00:36:02.720 Well, you've got the beard.

00:36:04.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:36:04.760 So you're safe, you know.

00:36:06.500 And that's why, like, the Taliban would actually arrest people and attack them for not, they would measure your beard on the streets.

00:36:15.580 They had a cup where they would measure it. 0.98

00:36:17.620 And even donkeys had to wear nappies so that in case you see the balls and get all excited. 1.00

00:36:22.940 It's like, I'm saying, religion is fucked up. 1.00

00:36:25.980 And the fact that anyone makes excuses for it and gives it respect, I mean, I think it's worthy of only of disrespect, honestly. 0.99

00:36:35.120 And the fact that, you know, it's just when you hear these things and you think, my goodness, we're living in the 21st century.

00:36:41.280 And these things actually, you know, these are people's beliefs.

00:36:44.880 And it's fine.

00:36:46.000 Believe what you want.

00:36:46.740 You have a right to it.

00:36:47.720 but you know the problem is if it's in the educational system if it's in the law if it's

00:36:52.380 in the state then it makes lives really difficult for so many people the one thing that i find is

00:36:57.940 that when we talk about these subjects i'll be honest with you i'm sweating more than i would

00:37:02.860 do at the gym and my back trenched but here's the thing you know we talk about it this this is an

00:37:09.820 important conversation it needs to be discussed it needs to be discussed openly rationally calmly

00:37:15.220 the problem is is we don't have these conversations because we're terrified right because part of me

00:37:21.480 you know when we grew where i grew up i was in the 80s and 90s i remember salman rushdie i remember

00:37:26.640 the satanic verses i remember the fatwa that was put up against him and then you know the you know

00:37:31.000 the extremists and all the rest of it but also as well you know because we don't talk about it

00:37:37.140 again it means that the tommy robinsons of the world and the far right go okay i can exploit

00:37:44.120 this and because they're savvy they go well no one's talking about it yeah i mean that pisses

00:37:50.420 me off though to be honest because when they say no one's talking about it we're we fled our

00:37:56.940 countries because we're talking about it people are getting killed and arrested every day in all

00:38:01.740 of our countries in the middle east and north africa because they're talking about it because

00:38:05.660 they're resisting very often women are the front lines of it and then you know they come and say

00:38:10.520 we're the only ones talking about it. No, you're not. First of all, that's a big lie in and of

00:38:16.600 itself because we've had the Council of Ex-Muslims. We've had One Law for All. We have the movement

00:38:23.620 for unveiling in Iran. We've got the movement in Algeria against Sharia courts. We've got the

00:38:29.620 demand for secularism in Turkey by women's rights activists, by other activists there.

00:38:34.400 You just name it. You've got the fastifying movement in Morocco, in Algeria, you know, young people coming out and smoking in the streets and being arrested and being beaten, but saying, you fast if you want, but we have a right not to fast if we don't want.

00:38:48.940 People have been doing that. You've got all these refugees fleeing. Most of them are coming from Islamic states. Most of them are coming from Islamic states. 1.00

00:38:56.380 Why do you think they're fleeing? Because when you have a theocracy, everything you do becomes a challenge to that state. How you dress, what music you listen to, who you have sex with, all of that becomes political acts of defiance.

00:39:10.300 And so all these people are having a say. They're voting with their feet. They're resisting even by doing personal things that they deserve to do as human beings living in the 21st century.

00:39:24.300 And then Tommy Robinson comes and says they're the only ones talking about it.

00:39:27.920 Well, here's the thing with Tommy Robinson, right?

00:39:29.540 We get a lot of criticisms because lots of people want us to interview him.

00:39:33.740 Under this interview right now, people are putting comments as they watch this,

00:39:37.120 going, ah, whatever.

00:39:39.480 But one thing that Tommy Robinson fans and supporters would say, I think,

00:39:43.480 accurately is the one issue that he did talk about that a lot of people

00:39:46.780 didn't want to raise is the grooming gangs. 0.89

00:39:49.260 That's not true.

00:39:49.980 You know how many women's rights groups have been working on that, 0.72

00:39:52.460 you know, on honor crimes, on FGM, on forced marriages. This is a woman's rights issue. 1.00

00:39:59.260 Who the fuck is Tommy Robinson? I'm sorry. What defense of women's rights has he done? 0.99

00:40:04.680 He's using the grooming gangs in order to sort of say that, you know, he's the only one speaking

00:40:10.180 about it. And then he's done things that could have jeopardized the court case.

00:40:14.660 No, but before that, so my understanding, hold on, I could be wrong, but let me just put this

00:40:19.740 counterpoint yeah right because in preparing for this for our interview i just wanted to kind of

00:40:24.380 understand the history of it so my understanding and this could be completely wrong but you tell

00:40:28.280 me what you think is that he started the edl because uh a cousin of his or something like that 0.95

00:40:34.400 was raped something like this right and the the argument goes was raped by a muslim as i understand 0.72

00:40:41.560 it okay is that true because so much of what he says isn't true so that's my understanding yeah 0.96

00:40:46.460 OK, so and in confronting that fact in Luton, what he found was there were lots of these stories of young white girls who had been raped by Muslims.

00:40:58.920 And in doing so, he then discovered that this was happening around the country, which he says is why he started the EDL and why they were protesting about this.

00:41:09.140 And when we say, well, no one is talking about this, I take your point that there are lots of people who were talking about this.

00:41:16.460 but maybe not having the voices heard.

00:41:18.640 But he was the one person that...

00:41:19.940 There's two things, yeah.

00:41:20.360 Because you see, the issues that you talk...

00:41:21.960 I just want to lay it out,

00:41:23.560 and you have plenty of opportunity to say what you want.

00:41:26.900 An ordinary working class person, 1.00

00:41:29.400 a British person, British-born white person

00:41:31.880 in Oxford or in Rotherham or in Luton,

00:41:35.260 they don't care.

00:41:36.340 Let's be honest.

00:41:37.000 They don't care about what's happening in Iran.

00:41:38.980 They don't care about what's happening in Saudi Arabia.

00:41:40.740 They care about what's happening in their community, right?

00:41:43.660 So they might say that Tommy Robinson, for all his faults, was the one person speaking up for their daughters.

00:41:52.160 OK, well, you know, unfortunately, I didn't know you were going to ask this because I would have done more research on this specific thing,

00:41:57.700 because we've done a report on the EDL and nowhere in its founding did it talk about rape and Rotherham and things.

00:42:04.020 So I think this is sort of historical revision, I would say.

00:42:06.780 And I'm confident enough to say it because I know enough about them to know that this was never mentioned initially.

00:42:12.660 But because it's got traction now, now the whole history of the EDL is based on this.

00:42:18.660 But even if that's the case, and it's like outrageous and so sad if anyone is raped and his cousin was raped, I think that's such a tragedy.

00:42:26.960 But again, you know, placing collective blame is what groups like Tommy Robinson and the EDL do. 1.00

00:42:32.240 Because, for example, I've had white people say, you fucking foreigner, get out of the country. 0.99

00:42:36.680 And then if I start an organization that focuses on white people, it's not really addressing racism. 1.00

00:42:43.600 Do you know what I mean?

00:42:44.400 Because it's sort of like to address racism, not only white people are racist, first of all. 0.72

00:42:51.620 There are lots of anti-racists who are white in the same way that there are lots of Muslims who are pro-women's rights, who are not raping girls. 0.98

00:42:59.500 And it's not just a question of white girls being raped. 0.99

00:43:02.160 There are non-white girls being raped. 0.99

00:43:03.660 Why is that also not an issue? 0.99

00:43:05.060 That's something we've been fighting for, you know, because they only see Britain as white and Christian. 0.93

00:43:10.340 It's as if their only concern is for white women and only white women who have been raped by Muslims, not by other, not by the priests. 0.87

00:43:18.720 You know, they haven't started a campaign about pedophilia in the church, for example. 0.97

00:43:22.640 I mean, if you're concerned about rape and child abuse and sexual abuse, it's something that is much more all encompassing as well.

00:43:30.120 But I agree there has been this, of course, a cover up.

00:43:34.240 We know that, right? We know that now. The police don't want to talk about it. Even with FGM, you've got the police commissioner saying it's discriminatory to talk about this. It's targeting a community. Well, it's not discriminatory for the woman who's been mutilated. It's bloody good if you do something for her, right?

00:43:50.760 So I do agree that there is this climate. But I also think that groups like Tommy Robinson's and all, they're not women's rights groups. They're using these issues in order to further their cause. And what is their cause? Their cause is not human rights. It's not a defense of secularism.

00:44:08.940 Because really, I think as a basis, religious and non-religious people need to agree that we need secular societies to protect both the religious and the non-religious.

00:44:18.940 So they're quite happy defending a Christian Europe, a Christian Britain. 0.94

00:44:23.700 They have no problems with the church and its rulings on so many aspects of people's lives.

00:44:29.620 Their focus is on Islam because they're anti-Muslim and they're anti-migrant.

00:44:33.500 And I think that's what my problem is with them.

00:44:36.600 They're using this issue. And like what happened with the trial as well of the groomers, what Tommy Robinson did could have jeopardized the case. And that's quite crucial because you want them to be tried. You want them behind bars. You want the full force of the law against people like that. But it's not just concern. It shouldn't just be concern for white girls, for all girls who are being raped and abused.

00:45:05.140 But that was a, it seems like that was a particular problem within one community, right? 0.92

00:45:11.980 And I was going to ask you, do you have any? 0.99

00:45:13.980 No, because I'm, you know, can you imagine how many non-white girls that those people are raping? 1.00

00:45:19.060 I would think a lot more because it's your property, you know. 0.99

00:45:23.620 In fact, the child marriages, the forced marriages, all of that is sexual violence against girls, you know.

00:45:30.420 But because it's their culture, it's fine. 0.56

00:45:32.420 But our white girls, that's not our culture. 1.00

00:45:34.260 So what you're saying is a lot of those, the statistics we see about Muslim men raping white girls, you suspect that those men were raping lots of Muslim girls or brown? 0.99

00:45:46.300 I don't know, not necessarily those men. 0.99

00:45:47.900 I don't know because I don't know. 0.98

00:45:49.640 But I'm saying the amount of rape and sexual violence that's happening to brown girls and black girls, I'm sure are really high as well. 0.97

00:45:59.760 Do you know what I mean? 0.99

00:46:00.380 And then there's so much rape and child abuse taking place.

00:46:04.840 It's not only, that's just one aspect of it.

00:46:07.420 Do you know what I mean?

00:46:08.100 Absolutely.

00:46:08.860 And that's the thing.

00:46:09.840 If you're really concerned about women's rights, about girls' rights, you know, you would be a women's rights campaigner.

00:46:17.000 You wouldn't just be focusing on that issue.

00:46:19.920 That issue needs to be focused on, of course.

00:46:22.140 You know, if people only focus on that issue, it's important to do it.

00:46:25.500 So that's not my problem.

00:46:26.800 I think the more people can highlight what's happening and protect girls, the more that should be done.

00:46:32.540 But what I'm saying is that I would think it's historical revision for Tommy to say that the whole EDL started because of that.

00:46:39.800 I think he's realized that that's good traction for him because, you know, he does change his things.

00:46:44.700 He says he said the EDL, you know, he left it.

00:46:48.940 That's what he said when he went to the interview with Majid Nawaz.

00:46:51.540 He left it because there were too many fascists and all coming in.

00:46:54.880 But go and see his speech at a Pegida rally in Germany where he says, you know, this is what I was dreaming of.

00:47:01.780 And the EDL came too soon and it was too early for people to get it.

00:47:06.320 But now, you know, now people are getting it.

00:47:09.160 You know, so like a good Islamist, he also changes his speech for different audiences. 1.00

00:47:15.460 I think, you know, Islamists do that very well as well. 1.00

00:47:17.880 It's called double speak.

00:47:19.440 The far right do that brilliantly as well.

00:47:22.460 They're part of the same movement, I think, actually.

00:47:24.880 And, you know, Islamism is a far-right movement as well.

00:47:28.040 So I think you need to be careful.

00:47:30.160 And this is the thing I was saying, that George Bush says he bombed Iraq for women's rights.

00:47:35.480 Do we buy it?

00:47:36.780 We don't just look at what people say.

00:47:38.620 We look at what they do, how they do it, in what context they do it, to make up our minds about things, right?

00:47:45.420 So with Tommy Robinson, you know, what sort of work has he done in defense of women's rights?

00:47:51.040 you know

00:47:52.420 why is it

00:47:54.880 it always ends up with Muslims being 1.00

00:47:56.820 deported and you know 0.70

00:47:58.500 less Muslim migration to this country

00:48:00.960 so it is a placing of collective

00:48:02.820 blame and I think that's bigotry

00:48:05.100 pure and simple

00:48:06.780 I understand what you're saying and the reason I brought

00:48:08.960 up the grooming gangs is not because

00:48:10.940 this is an issue that I personally

00:48:12.820 want to focus on exclusively and I

00:48:14.920 don't care about other things, the reason I brought it up

00:48:16.960 is that

00:48:18.040 from what I understand

00:48:20.140 from doing the research that I've done and listening

00:48:22.700 is the grooming gang's issue is the one issue

00:48:26.920 that people see Tommy Robinson as standing up for their community.

00:48:33.420 But that's today.

00:48:34.780 But before that, it was him, you know.

00:48:37.360 And this is the other thing, this idea that he represents the working class.

00:48:41.040 Well, a lot of working class people join trade unions.

00:48:44.800 They join anti-racist movements.

00:48:46.300 They join progressive organizing, you know,

00:48:49.400 to say that working class equates fascism is just another rewriting and revision of reality, you

00:48:56.600 know. Of course, there are working class people who join the EDL. There are middle class people

00:49:00.420 who join the EDL. There are elite people who are, you know, top like 1% of society who join and fund

00:49:08.720 and support the EDL or Britain first. You know, they're getting a lot of money, including from

00:49:13.320 the United States, Christian right groups. Stephen Bannon's come to Europe to organize their

00:49:19.460 groups and things like that. So, you know, there's a lot of international links, just like the

00:49:23.740 Islamists have a lot of international links, founded by the Saudis, supported by the Iranian

00:49:28.500 regime, training's going on, they're doing the exact same thing. So, you know, the fact that

00:49:33.500 it's then, you know, working class, you know, the working class is automatically fascist is not the

00:49:40.740 case, in my opinion. And also the fact that believing Tommy Robinson at his word, I think

00:49:47.780 is dangerous in the same way that I think when you have an imam coming into a school or the Muslim 1.00

00:49:52.940 Council of Britain saying, you know, we believe in women's choice. But meanwhile, to a group of

00:50:00.080 women, they're saying hijab is your obligation. You've got to be able to be savvy enough to see 1.00

00:50:06.300 what they say, what they're actually doing. I think EDL politics is so divisive, it's so dangerous,

00:50:14.660 and mainly because it sort of has this us and them mentality, which is exactly what the Islamists do. 0.65

00:50:21.420 You know, they're always dividing people. They're the kuffar, they're the Muslims, you know, 1.00

00:50:26.540 they're destroying our culture, they're destroying, they say the same things as well. You know, they 0.99

00:50:32.100 both hate women they're both homophobes you know fundamentally their their you know their focus is

00:50:40.500 just dehumanizing the other and I think that's so dangerous because if you kind of say look the 0.98

00:50:45.620 Muslims do this we have to get them out of the country you no longer see people as human beings 1.00

00:50:50.020 anymore you know but they are there's so many good Muslims you know just like there's so many good 0.98

00:50:55.140 white people you know not all white people are fascists right I mean that's common sense but

00:51:00.940 the argument that the EDL has is that it's the Muslims. They're destroying our country. They're 1.00

00:51:05.340 destroying our culture. They're never citizens, no matter how many generations they've lived in 1.00

00:51:10.040 this country. So all of that is just so dangerous. And it doesn't really help girls and women. That's

00:51:16.000 the point I'm trying to make. In the same way that the Islamists, by veiling and segregating, 0.97

00:51:20.680 they're not protecting women. They say they're protecting women, but it's a lie. They do that 0.99

00:51:26.460 to dupe people. And I think the EDL has the same sort of arguments. They say grooming because they

00:51:32.820 know that's a concern for people. But it's to dupe people into bringing them into a politics of hate

00:51:39.600 and of scaremongering and of othering, you know, the other, sort of dehumanizing the other. So

00:51:46.000 it's dangerous in my opinion. And I've got to say, I think the point that you made, and you made it

00:51:50.780 brilliantly, and it's so powerful, and it's so true, and it's really, really important. And because

00:51:54.940 we always get people commenting why don't you interview tommy blah blah blah and then the last

00:51:59.140 comment is always about how i look fat but there we go well now you i can add to this yeah it's 0.91

00:52:06.400 always that francis why are you so fat your chin your mustache oh come on man a lot of people

00:52:11.580 actually have been saying you lost weight yeah you've lost weight well tell them the tv brings

00:52:16.520 10 pounds yeah that's what i'm gonna do i'm gonna do that i tell you the body shaming is so bad on

00:52:23.260 this we had a we had a rapper on called zuby he's a libertarian rapper and he's yeah he weight lifts

00:52:28.300 and he's got these huge arms someone commented look how good his arms are you can you can see 0.64

00:52:32.760 how good his arms are by comparing them to francis and his pathetic lack of definition 0.97

00:52:36.560 so you know how women feel yes because women are always you know everything i'm old i'm fat i'm ugly 0.98

00:52:44.860 yeah uh it's like and then if you're younger well i've reached you know because isis used to kill 0.97

00:52:50.060 women off after um 40 because they couldn't sell them as sex slaves right so i should have been 1.00

00:52:56.600 killed like 13 years ago i'm 53 now and so the the rape and the sex jokes and all have changed 1.00

00:53:02.400 to you old hag you it's like it's it's it's amazing how it's still you know anti-woman but 0.97

00:53:07.940 it's depending on your age it changes so so not that i'm happy that men also 0.69

00:53:14.340 but it makes me feel a little like solidarity

00:53:17.640 solidarity between us

00:53:20.760 you should be ashamed of your body shaming 0.62

00:53:23.440 yeah yeah exactly 0.89

00:53:24.480 yeah I cried tears as I ate my chocolates

00:53:26.800 right I think this conversation is

00:53:29.220 it's just so important

00:53:31.060 and it needs to happen

00:53:32.500 and you know it's vital

00:53:33.840 but I could never imagine it happening

00:53:36.580 on mainstream terrestrial TV

00:53:38.780 like the BBC in any great detail

00:53:41.040 why do you think that is?

00:53:43.000 Yeah, I mean, just a few days ago, one of my colleagues, Sadia Hamid, was supposed to be on BBC Women's Hour to talk about Ramadan and how child fasting is child abuse.

00:53:54.240 And, of course, like one hour before the show went live, they canceled her coming.

00:53:59.260 And everybody on the show was fine with child fasting.

00:54:02.860 And it's happened so many times.

00:54:04.120 I was invited to the BBC during a campaign.

00:54:07.280 And this, you know, usually I'm like, OK, that happens.

00:54:10.440 But honestly, after this happened, I just cried for an hour because it was so frustrating.

00:54:15.580 This woman was being stoned to death in Iran, Sakina Mohamedyoshiani, and we had a campaign in her defense.

00:54:21.660 And the BBC had invited me to come and speak about our campaign. 0.83

00:54:25.780 And there was someone from Iran saying she needs to die. 1.00

00:54:29.220 She's a murderer. 1.00

00:54:30.960 And then there was a Sharia judge from Britain who said, well, stoning is good for society because it purifies it. 0.99

00:54:37.760 And they didn't have me on.

00:54:39.780 So you're the extremist out of those three people.

00:54:42.200 I'm the extremist, but that's it.

00:54:43.860 Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone.

00:54:47.000 I'm saying she shouldn't be stoned to death,

00:54:49.620 and then they just cut me out.

00:54:51.440 And I just thought, you know, there's a woman's life at stake, 0.71

00:54:53.880 and they don't even have the decency to let me speak for five minutes.

00:54:57.120 I mean, I'm getting emotional just thinking about it now.

00:55:00.020 And also the fact that, you know, and their topic was,

00:55:04.680 should stoning be condemned?

00:55:08.420 What?

00:55:10.200 I know.

00:55:11.260 She's starting to condemn.

00:55:12.280 But, Mara, why?

00:55:13.260 Why is that the case?

00:55:14.400 So, it's, you know, there's many reasons for it.

00:55:17.080 There is this idea that criticizing is akin to bigotry and attack of Muslims.

00:55:23.060 And I think how offensive.

00:55:24.480 You know, I'm offended on behalf of the Muslim community because, you know, you think that this is them. 0.95

00:55:30.000 They're barbarians, you know. 0.93

00:55:31.560 You can't criticize it because they would get so hurt and offended and they'd chop someone's head off.

00:55:35.740 Most people don't do that, you know.

00:55:37.540 So there's there's that. There's also the fact that, you know, they they think this is the way they think is that because it's a minority, you don't want to that's under attack or being discriminated against.

00:55:51.040 You don't want to add to that. But, you know, we're all adults. You know, we have discussions in our families all the time.

00:55:56.920 Yeah. Well, there's a lot of screaming and shouting or you just try not to mention things to survive the ordeal.

00:56:02.500 But, you know, people are adults.

00:56:05.820 They're not as sensitive as the media or government thinks that they are.

00:56:10.500 You know, so that's another area of it.

00:56:12.500 The other thing is, you know, we live in an age of identity politics and cultural relativism.

00:56:17.160 So, you know, this is their culture.

00:56:19.260 You know, we are more civilized.

00:56:20.600 We can have a chat about Jesus and laugh when he's wearing nappies.

00:56:25.060 But they just they go insane.

00:56:27.140 You know, and that's such a racist view of people who are considered Muslims because, first of all, not everybody is a Muslim.

00:56:34.560 We have different beliefs in all these societies, including lots of atheism.

00:56:41.020 Criticizing religion is a very strong tradition in a place like Iran, for example.

00:56:46.180 You know, we have many, many jokes about Islam. 0.97

00:56:50.120 I mean, it's funny.

00:56:50.820 One of my friends, when he came here as a refugee, he went to an English language class.

00:56:56.080 yeah so the teacher english teacher was like let's now all say a joke about our countries

00:57:01.280 that we have for in our country so we can share it so my friend was like oh we have a really good

00:57:06.000 joke about muhammad and she was like no no no no you can't say and it's like yeah because we do 0.88

00:57:14.200 have jokes like that or we joke about mullahs we joke about muhammad we joke about islam you know 0.83

00:57:19.820 and here it's like you know we become these people who cannot do jokes but the problem

00:57:25.840 there mariam surely is that if if i was to go on stage as a comedian and do a joke about jesus

00:57:31.120 yeah wearing a nappy as you say i don't have any reason to fear for my life yeah whereas if you

00:57:37.880 make a joke about muhammad you probably might sure right yeah and that's the point and i think when 0.63

00:57:43.020 you fear for your life that's when you need to make that joke because that's when it counts

00:57:46.680 you know i think that's exactly when you need to do it and that's the whole excellent the idea of

00:57:55.260 The ex-Muslim movement is that poking fun at religion, I think, is hugely important. 1.00

00:57:59.700 There's this wonderful Norwegian-Pakistani comedian, Shabana Rehman, and she's amazing. 0.99

00:58:06.240 She's, like, shown her ass on stage, and she's... 0.98

00:58:09.080 Sounds great to me. 1.00

00:58:10.500 I'm down.

00:58:11.300 Well, because that's really taboo-breaking, right? 0.91

00:58:13.360 I know it might sound stupid when I'm telling you, but it's so taboo-breaking.

00:58:18.520 And, you know, there was this event she was at, and there's this Mullah Karkar, his name is, or something, 0.86

00:58:24.100 and he's like known as the terrorist mullah in Norway

00:58:26.840 and everybody was like really scared of him

00:58:28.720 and she went on stage and she picked him up 0.96

00:58:30.720 and she shook him around

00:58:31.620 and everybody burst out laughing

00:58:33.560 and she says, you know, when people laugh,

00:58:35.720 you break the fear

00:58:36.560 and that's exactly when you need to do it

00:58:38.980 and I think that is so key,

00:58:40.360 like making, you know, making fun

00:58:42.640 and the other thing is, you know,

00:58:44.580 with identity politics,

00:58:45.740 it's become such that

00:58:47.360 only if you belong to that identity,

00:58:49.780 you're allowed to speak

00:58:50.960 but also, not even if you belong to that identity

00:58:53.960 Because you've got Muslim women like Yasmin Rahman saying something against child marriage or against gender segregation. 1.00

00:59:00.100 Oh, she's an Uncle Tom.

00:59:01.360 You have to be the authentic identity in order to say anything.

00:59:05.120 And that means, like, if you're a Muslim, you have to be pro-Sharia, pro-the-veil, pro-child marriage, pro-this, pro-that. 1.00

00:59:11.900 Then you can speak about it, you know.

00:59:14.060 So the point is, though, that before this, we used to believe in, and the left was a banner carrier of this, criticizing religion.

00:59:23.960 freedom of thought, freedom of expression.

00:59:27.140 And also it didn't matter what your background was.

00:59:29.940 You worked together for social change and justice, right?

00:59:33.100 So I was an anti-apartheid activist.

00:59:35.420 That was the first time I became political, right?

00:59:39.080 I wasn't black, I wasn't South African.

00:59:41.180 Now I say something, I went to Holland,

00:59:45.460 I said something about how gender segregation

00:59:47.920 is like racial segregation in South Africa.

00:59:52.300 It's segregating people based on their race, and this is based on their gender.

00:59:55.920 It's the same thing.

00:59:56.600 It's humiliating.

00:59:57.500 It's dehumanizing.

00:59:58.860 So on Twitter, someone said, you're an NBPO, so you have no right to talk about South Africa. 0.75

01:00:03.320 And I didn't even know what that was, but it means non-black person of color.

01:00:07.740 You knew, right?

01:00:08.740 I was like, what is this?

01:00:10.780 And I was like, you will not tell me what I can speak about and what I can't.

01:00:15.360 And I was an activist against apartheid in South Africa.

01:00:18.180 You're too young to even know what apartheid meant, you know?

01:00:21.660 And you have groups like South Hall Black Sisters.

01:00:25.340 They're Asian women, but they call themselves Black Sisters 1.00

01:00:27.460 because it's part of the black politics of that time.

01:00:30.740 You know, that it was no matter who you were,

01:00:33.780 you worked for social justice, for equality.

01:00:36.380 Movements always for women's rights has all been not about me being superior to you,

01:00:40.800 but me being equal to you, you know.

01:00:42.440 But now it's like you're part of an identity.

01:00:45.520 You want to be superior to everybody else.

01:00:47.040 No one's allowed to talk about your politics.

01:00:51.020 No one's allowed to say anything.

01:00:52.900 You get too hurt.

01:00:54.060 You've got to use jazz hands.

01:00:55.480 You can't clap anymore.

01:00:57.000 Honestly, it's become so absurd.

01:00:58.660 And I think this is the time then you have to just break through things.

01:01:02.780 People are always like, don't you think you're going too far?

01:01:05.560 Well, this is when you have to go too far.

01:01:07.360 That's how things change.

01:01:08.860 If you just tiptoe around things, nothing changes.

01:01:12.420 And so I think, yeah, jokes on Islam.

01:01:14.780 Go for it.

01:01:15.700 invite us we'll come and laugh really loud but but it's you know because now people are trying

01:01:22.760 to shut down those jokes but it's like you said because when jokes are essentially especially

01:01:27.120 that side of joke is pointing out the ridiculous and if and if a beautiful joke like that essentially 0.90

01:01:33.100 cuts through all the crap it's in many ways it's better than hour-long speeches because it's summed 0.86

01:01:38.460 up in a 15 second moment that everyone goes oh yeah they laugh there's such truth in jokes yeah 0.67

01:01:45.120 isn't there good ones yeah and good ones and then there's no comeback because and you just see them

01:01:49.860 a lot of the time they just get angry and they storm off or they they get upset yeah but it's

01:01:54.520 interesting to me that you criticize left because you're someone from the left yeah right yeah uh

01:01:58.580 and yet i feel like it's like a stab in my back yeah i feel it as well yeah i feel it as well

01:02:03.960 really yeah you feel like it's stabbing your back with the far right i they're fascist to me the

01:02:08.520 islamists they're fascists i would never ever but you know the left i think they should be standing 0.99

01:02:12.620 with me we should be doing this fight together and they've left us alone you know and there's 0.96

01:02:18.360 so many of us it doesn't matter because you know we're having an impact in so many countries

01:02:22.920 and a lot of the fights against forced marriage against honor crimes they're all done by minority

01:02:29.440 women you know on their own without left the support that they should have had and you were

01:02:34.500 speaking at a university in london a couple of years ago about some of these issues and you had

01:02:39.540 people come in and protest and then the feminist society and the lgbtq plus a whatever letters 0.70

01:02:47.640 there are they both came out in support of the islamists who were challenging you yeah yeah

01:02:52.460 it was amazing because these guys were so threatening and they uh you know they waited

01:02:58.960 till my talk started then they kind of fell into the room and they kept like i was talking and they

01:03:04.060 kept walking past me and hitting my notes and i just could think everybody said i looked really

01:03:08.660 calm but I was just thinking I'm going to just even if I have to just read my speech I'm not

01:03:13.760 letting them stop my speech because if they do that's the end of it you know then you can't go

01:03:17.160 anywhere after that and actually I haven't been invited to university for so long because they

01:03:20.960 they succeeded because people are so afraid of of conflict um so the the video footage is there

01:03:29.180 where they actually like one of them um did this to one of our uh activists and you can't see him

01:03:36.540 do this but you see one of our other activists crying because she is a Libyan who was abducted

01:03:43.920 by the Islamists for three days and she thought they were going to kill her and him doing this

01:03:48.300 made her remember that so you just see her going like this and then another time he went out of

01:03:54.020 the room and he was like boom you know like just threatening stuff like that and the video is very

01:03:59.220 clear that they were just so threatening and aggressive right and then imagine like yeah it

01:04:05.380 just made me, I just felt like, oh, you know, that hurts. That hurts. These guys, I don't expect

01:04:10.560 anything better from them, you know. But that is like, how can you be a feminist and not stand 1.00

01:04:16.500 with another feminist, you know. And to defend the most, I mean, he eventually had to resign because

01:04:22.420 he, they found all these homophobic tweets about him, the president of that Islamic society.

01:04:28.760 and still the LGBTQ plus society didn't say anything

01:04:33.640 or didn't retract their thing, they didn't apologize

01:04:36.480 and the university, they contacted me 30 times

01:04:39.960 not to apologize but to tell me to remove the video

01:04:42.460 and I said I'm not removing the video, that's the only evidence I have

01:04:45.960 about what happened

01:04:48.060 and I thought look at them, they don't even have the decency to say

01:04:52.220 I'm sorry this happened to you

01:04:54.040 because when you dehumanize the other to the extent that nothing matters

01:04:58.940 I'm sure if I had been hit as well, it would have been fine.

01:05:01.520 I deserved it.

01:05:02.160 I provoked it.

01:05:03.100 And we saw that with Charlie Hebdo as well.

01:05:05.440 They killed people over a cartoon.

01:05:07.440 And you actually have people saying, well, they provoked me.

01:05:10.620 Well, Islam provokes me every day. 1.00

01:05:12.540 I hate it. 1.00

01:05:13.300 I don't come chopping off your head or killing you. 0.99

01:05:16.280 So obviously there are other ways of dealing with these issues. 0.96

01:05:19.820 But they've normalized it so much that it is, you know, we are seen.

01:05:25.500 I mean, it's amazing.

01:05:26.120 I go somewhere and they're like, the controversial Mariam Namazi. 0.95

01:05:29.580 And yesterday they had an Islamist who says that people like me should be killed,

01:05:33.820 but that's not controversial. 0.87

01:05:35.580 What happened?

01:05:38.020 You know, it baffles me, honestly.

01:05:40.160 Well, that is a question that I think baffles everybody.

01:05:43.080 Unfortunately, it's been, no, unfortunately, I was going to say,

01:05:46.560 unfortunately, it's been a wonderful interview.

01:05:48.120 It's been a wonderful interview, but unfortunately we're out of time.

01:05:51.360 Thank you so much for having me.

01:05:52.680 Well, we have one more question for you, actually.

01:05:54.380 And the question that we always finish up with is what is the one thing that we are not talking about that we really should be talking about as a society?

01:06:02.460 I think is seeing how the Islamist that everybody talks about in some ways is one and the same with the white nationalists and the white supremacists.

01:06:16.180 I think groups like Britain First, EDL, the National Front in France, for example, they're very much the same political movement as the Islamists.

01:06:27.380 And it would help the left, I think.

01:06:29.060 That's what I'm coming from.

01:06:30.640 The left, if they see how dangerous white nationalists are, why can't they see that the Islamists are from that same movement? 0.95

01:06:38.380 And then it would make them, maybe something would click in their fossilized, rotted brains of multiculturalism and identity politics. 0.90

01:06:47.100 What a great way to finish an interview.

01:06:49.120 What a powerful image.

01:06:50.920 No, that's great.

01:06:52.880 Mariam, if people want to follow you and your work, are you on Twitter?

01:06:57.180 Yeah, sure.

01:06:57.880 Mariam Namazi is my Twitter handle.

01:07:00.360 That's so funny.

01:07:01.000 I hate saying that.

01:07:02.000 I've got a website, mariamnamazi.com, but also, of course, the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain and One Law for All. 0.59

01:07:08.380 you can see they've got Twitter handles as well

01:07:11.760 and on social media

01:07:13.640 we'll make sure to tag them all in

01:07:15.340 thank you very much for watching as always

01:07:17.240 we will be back in a week's time from now

01:07:19.720 follow us on all the social media

01:07:21.280 at TriggerPod

01:07:22.100 subscribe to the YouTube channel

01:07:23.760 click the bell button next to the subscribe button

01:07:25.900 I always forget something

01:07:27.460 oh yeah come and see my show in Edinburgh

01:07:28.800 it feels a bit weird after this interview saying that

01:07:30.760 but called Orwell that ends well about free speech

01:07:33.940 you're going to do Islam jokes? 0.94

01:07:35.320 and if he doesn't, boo him 0.55

01:07:36.500 you have my permission

01:07:38.720 boom 1.00

01:07:39.540 and get your ass out 1.00

01:07:40.540 if necessary 1.00

01:07:40.980 I either get booed

01:07:43.520 or I anger

01:07:46.220 a lot of people

01:07:46.820 who are going to come 1.00

01:07:47.340 and chop my head off 0.99

01:07:48.040 it's a nice choice 1.00

01:07:49.020 what a great choice

01:07:50.900 but you're enjoying it

01:07:51.940 yeah

01:07:52.220 and that's the most

01:07:53.180 important thing

01:07:53.820 well I get fat shamed

01:07:55.000 mate

01:07:55.260 so there we go

01:07:56.240 we've all got

01:07:57.300 across the bear

01:07:58.140 as it were

01:07:58.660 alright

01:07:59.040 yeah

01:08:00.000 leave us an iTunes review

01:08:02.020 if you enjoy it

01:08:03.200 spread the word

01:08:03.960 retweet

01:08:04.540 that would be lovely

01:08:05.220 I'm doing a show here

01:08:06.360 at the Bill Murray in August.

01:08:08.180 I will have details on my Twitter

01:08:09.900 and whatever else.

01:08:12.060 Thank you so much

01:08:13.220 and we will see you next week.

01:08:14.880 Bye-bye.

01:08:15.300 Some more comments about Francis 0.72

01:08:16.560 being fat police.

01:08:17.560 Thanks very much.

01:08:18.420 Bye.

`witch hunt`	Both words, anywhere in the episode.
`"witch hunt"`	The exact phrase.
`witch OR hunt`	Either word.
`"alpha male" -"high value"`	The first phrase, but not the second.
`(feminist OR feminism) AND (marriage OR divorce)`	Parentheses group alternatives.
`"decline civilization"~5`	Both words within 5 words of each other.

`misogyn*`	Any word starting with "misogyn": misogyny, misogynist, misogynistic…
`feminizm~1`	Words one letter off: catches typos and transcription errors.

`person:"Andrew Tate"`	Episodes where they host, guest, or are mentioned.
`host:"Glenn Beck"`	Episodes they host.
`guest:"Jordan Peterson"`	Episodes they appear on as a guest.
`mentioned:"Andrew Tate" -host:"Andrew Tate"`	Talked about on other people's shows.
`show:"Bannon's War Room"`	Episodes from one show.

`topics:abortion`	Episodes tagged with a topic (see the Topics page).
`summary:"Andrew Tate"`	Words in the episode summary. Summaries are machine-written and can be wrong.

`"great replacement" AND episode_date:[NOW-1YEAR TO NOW]`	From the past 12 months.
`lockdown AND episode_date:[2020-01-01T00:00:00Z TO 2020-12-31T23:59:59Z]`	From one year. Dates need the full time, as shown.
`"high value" AND misogyny_count:[100 TO *]`	Episodes with 100 or more sentences flagged as misogynistic. Also: hate_speech_count, toxicity_count, word_count.

TRIGGERnometry - August 11, 2019

Maryam Namazie on Islam, Tommy Robinson and Grooming Gangs

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript