00:00:56.620So I became involved in refugee rights issues, given my own experiences, of course, opposition to the Islamic State, because it was just horrible, you know, to live under it.
00:01:10.540And the results of it continues to today.
00:01:13.440And so that's what I've sort of been campaigning on, issues around Islam, Islamism, women's rights, secularism, and of course, refugee rights.
00:01:22.540And I have so many questions to ask you.
00:01:26.540most of which I'm quite reluctant to ask because these are very difficult issues to talk about.
00:01:32.460So can you just outline for us, first of all, one of the things I think is really important to demarcate is the difference between Muslims as people,
00:01:41.340Islam as a religion, and Islamism as a more of a, you probably would say, political ideology.
00:01:46.240So can you just explain to us and our viewers what are those things and how to separate them?
00:01:50.980Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite simple to separate them.
00:01:53.540I don't know why everybody has a difficult task doing it.
00:01:56.500And I think if you compare it with the Christian right, because a lot of progressive people will be against the church, for example, against its laws regarding women, for example, the Christian rights, assault on abortion rights, reproductive rights, women's rights, for example, in the U.S. or in Poland.
00:02:15.800And then there's Christianity, which a lot of free thinkers will make fun of Christianity, will make fun of Jesus, for example.
00:02:22.700you have comedy shows with Jesus in a nappy, and then you've got Christians. And you can make fun
00:02:28.380of Christianity and make fun of the Christian right, oppose the Christian right, and nobody
00:02:32.720says you're attacking Christians, you know, or you're bigoted against Christians. It's the exact
00:02:37.300same thing. I don't know why it's so difficult to understand. You know, we come from Muslim
00:02:41.480backgrounds. A lot of our family members are still Muslims. And, you know, racists can't tell
00:02:46.680any one of us apart anyway. So if you think that, you know, for us, we think, oh, we're safe because
00:02:51.780they're only going to attack the Muslims. I mean, they attack Sikhs thinking they're Muslims. They
00:02:55.560can't tell anyone from anyone. You know, so we don't want to be inciting racism. Racism affects
00:03:03.020ex-Muslims too. It affects our families too. But it's a question of saying, look, we're free
00:03:08.660thinkers. We want to criticize the Islamic right, like the Christian right. We want to be able to
00:03:16.340criticize Islam as a ridiculous idea, as all religions are. But that's not the same as attacking
00:03:21.800Muslims. That's not the same as attacking people. And I think it's something that's conflated as a
00:03:27.900way really of silencing criticism. I mean, that's what's happened. And the Islamic movement is doing
00:03:33.260that, trying to silence criticism. It's a way of imposing blasphemy laws here in Europe where
00:03:39.700blasphemy laws don't exist. So in Iran, nobody will accuse you of Islamophobia or bigotry against
00:03:45.980Muslims. They'll call you an apostate, a blasphemer, and you go to prison and you get the death penalty
00:03:50.680for it. Here, they use terms like Islamophobia and bigotry and racism as a way of imposing those
00:03:58.940laws, you know, de facto rather than in the law. Do you know what I mean? I do know what you mean,
00:04:04.400but here's where the difficulty comes in because I understand both of us are non-believers and we
00:04:09.840also think that there's a lot of problems with all religions. Maybe Islam in particular has certain
00:04:15.280challenges as well but if one of us was to say what you've just said well that's it we're
00:04:20.640islamophobic we're racist we're bigoted and and that is difficult isn't it well i mean we get
00:04:27.480accused of that too so it's it's people who are from you get accused of being islamophobic of
00:04:32.360course yeah of inside of being uncle toms of being coconuts of being um a native informants
00:04:40.360you know of promoting a neo-colonial agenda these are things they say to us as well
00:04:44.940And I think that, you know, it's good that people are concerned about racism. That's thanks to a huge anti-racist movement that has made it difficult to be racist and bigoted. That's something positive. And I think it's nice that people are concerned about racism. And that's a great thing, you know, but I think it's important to say that, you know, great that we're concerned with racism, but criticizing the religious right or criticizing bad ideas has nothing to do with racism.
00:05:13.020And I do understand that you have a far right that is very savvy, like the Islamists are very savvy.
00:05:20.640They even use anti-racist language as a way of covering themselves.
00:05:25.760So you'll have the EDL or Tommy Robinson or Britain First and these sort of groups saying,
00:05:31.320we're not attacking Muslims, we're anti-Islam and we're anti-Islamism using this sort of language as well.
00:05:36.880But really, you can see that their politics are focused on migrants, on Muslims, on deportations, on keeping people out, on never recognizing people of different backgrounds as citizens and equal citizens.
00:06:15.620If someone's actually killing women and saying they're protecting them, if they're throwing bombs on countries and saying it's for human rights, well, then I think your brain can work a little bit and say, well, they're pretending in the same way that the Islamists say Islam is a religion of peace while they're beheading you.
00:06:33.100So I think you can tell the difference.
00:06:34.920And I think it's just asking people to use their critical faculties.
00:06:39.620You know, when it comes to Islam, it seems as if everybody has a lobotomy.
00:06:43.420You know, the same principles and ethics we would use on other issues.
00:06:49.320Somehow, when it comes to Islam, we're incapable of doing it.
00:06:52.180Before Francis jump in, let me just finish this line of questioning.
00:07:02.640I ask questions. You listen. Just give me one more. You mentioned this phrase, Islam is a religion of peace. And whenever there's a terrorist attack by Islamists and jihadis in this country or anywhere else in Europe, that seems to always be the line.
00:07:25.340Islam is a religion of peace. You can't talk about it. Even open-minded people like us who want to understand where different people are coming from and are not blaming whole groups of people for certain things. You can't say that, particularly as a white person. You can't say that. But even as you said yourself, as someone who's from Iran, was brought up as a Muslim, saying Islam is not a religion of peace, which I imagine you believe, it's impossible.
00:07:52.100So can you just talk to us about why you don't think Islam is a religion of peace?
00:07:56.260I mean, I don't think any religion is a religion of peace.
00:07:58.640I mean, religion is based on, you know, murdering anyone who is a heretic, an apostate.
00:08:05.080You know, you've got the Spanish Inquisitions.
00:08:10.680And the Islamic movement has power in many countries.
00:08:14.460They're actually crucifying people in the street, hanging people off of cranes for apostasy, for blasphemy, for being gay.
00:08:21.060they're stoning people to death in the streets. So, you know, it's not a hypothetical discussion
00:08:26.120to say that Islam or any religion is not peaceful. I think religion actually is, you know, the
00:08:32.880antithesis of peace and justice. And in fact, you know, it's funny because they always talk about
00:08:38.520religious morality, but really it's immorality from an ethical point of view. You know, so many
00:08:44.300of, you know, just to give you an example, in Islam, it's immoral to have sex outside of marriage.
00:08:48.880So you have sex with someone you love, but it's perfectly fine to have child marriage, which is pedophilia and child rape.
00:08:54.720You know, it's it's it's not possible to hold hands with your partner, someone you love on the street, because that's considered sexual mixing.
00:09:02.300But it's perfectly fine to specify the size of stone to stone someone to death for for having an adulterous relationship or for being a homosexual.
00:09:11.420It's perfectly fine to throw someone off a building because they're gay. But, you know, it's haram to eat during Ramadan.
00:09:17.560I mean, it's just the unethical nature of all religious precepts.
00:09:40.620Because I get that a lot when I'm speaking to people.
00:09:42.740Francis probably agrees with you even more than I do.
00:09:44.640So I think, yeah. So saying Islam is a religion of peace, it's just, you know, it's nonsense. It's not true by any measure. You just have to, you know, yeah, they'll say, and let me say this, my dad, who's a Muslim, is the loveliest, kindest person in the world. He wouldn't hurt a fly.
00:10:00.440So again, I'm not saying that Muslims are like that, or Christians are like what the Bible says, or Jews are like what the Torah says. You know, in the Torah, for example, men pray thanking God that they weren't born women.
00:10:13.640You know, there's so many examples of that in all religions, because I think people are better than their religions because people change according and adapt according to the age that they live in.
00:10:27.860And that's why interpretation is such a big thing, because people do interpret things the way they want.
00:10:32.660But I think Islam is not at all peaceful.
00:10:35.200And I understand why people say it, because they don't want Muslims to be targeted.
00:10:38.860And rightfully so, you know, now in Sri Lanka, after the attack on the church, Muslims are being dragged out of their homes, their shops are being burnt down, they haven't done anything, you know, and we've got lots of ex-Muslims who've had to flee the city because, of course, they're also considered Muslims, and they've lost their homes, they're homeless.
00:10:58.560So again, you can understand why people say that,
00:11:01.380but I think that's going about it the wrong way
00:11:03.540because everybody knows that's not true
00:11:06.240and you're just helping to not discuss the truth
00:11:10.140and you're sort of making Muslims a target
00:11:15.520And I think that's where we need to be very clear.
00:11:18.660Target beliefs, target religious right movements.
00:11:21.180Never, ever is targeting people permissible in any circumstance.
00:11:25.440I mean I think that's a very very important and powerful message because you do see a lot of you
00:11:32.260know people targeting individual people you know you know you get horrible stories about hijabs
00:11:37.020getting ripped off people and it's just absolutely heartbreaking the words that I hear bandied about
00:11:42.920all the time and that I hear and that we've used already in this interview is Islamophobia and I
00:11:49.560don't even know what that means could you clarify for myself and for the listeners what is what
00:11:55.280What is the meaning of the word and how is it used?
00:12:00.540And sometimes I see in order to shut down debate and conversation.
00:12:04.320Yeah, I mean, I think there's a big problem with this word.
00:12:08.300And the problem is that, one, it's become mainstream.
00:12:11.200So it's adopted by the UN, it's adopted by various, you know, in British.
00:12:16.620Now the British government has adopted it and lots of parties are adopting it.
00:12:21.340And there's an all-parliamentary group that's also put forward this term and explained it.
00:12:29.280And basically, it implies that it's bigotry against Muslims.
00:12:35.080But there's a problem because it sort of uses the word Islam, which is a religion, rather than saying Muslim phobia.
00:12:42.740I would be perfectly happy with that term, like xenophobia, which is a phobia against foreigners, like homophobia, a phobia against gay people.
00:12:51.040these are discrimination and bigotry against people, gay people, migrants, Muslims. But
00:12:57.540Islamophobia is Islam is an idea. And it's fine if people have a phobia of it. You know,
00:13:03.980I have a phobia about fascism. You know, I don't like it. And I'll stand up against it wherever I
00:13:09.640can. It's the same with religion for me, I do have a phobia, a dislike of religions as well,
00:13:15.540And so to compare that with bigotry against people is really problematic.
00:13:21.660And it's something that is being used as a way of somehow conflating criticism of Islam,
00:13:28.700criticizing Islamism with an attack on Muslims.
00:13:32.460And so it becomes impossible to really say anything for a lot of people.
00:13:39.260I did a stint of work when I was a supply teacher,
00:13:42.280and I worked in an Islamic primary school in South London.
00:13:46.140And in the afternoon, the children had Islamic studies, as it was called,
00:14:46.520and repeating the words you know the Jews killed him
00:14:49.140and the Jews because they were jealous of him
00:14:51.400and I'm just there and I got incredibly uncomfortable at that point
00:14:55.780that you've got these children who are completely innocent
00:14:58.040and repeating the word Jews constantly
00:15:00.620and saying that they're the reason that Jesus died
00:15:05.300I mean, that's one of the basis of anti-Semitism as well, isn't it? I mean, even not just Islamic anti-Semitism, but Christian anti-Semitism, too. And I think, again, this is why it's really important that we don't have religion in schools.
00:15:22.160I think religion is fine as we teach history or, you know, in the sense of talking about different religions so people know, you know, that there are different religions in the world, but that there are also people who are atheists and humanists and free thinkers.
00:15:37.640And not as a form of indoctrination, but historically what religions have done, because they've done a lot of bad shit in the world, you know.
00:15:45.200And it would be good for kids to know that rather than always having this religion is this, religion is all lovely and cuddly, whilst also giving really sinister messages about the religion that you don't like, you know, or you want the kids to move away from.
00:16:01.020And I think it does lead to indoctrination.
00:16:04.360I mean, even in Christian schools, which are not as bad as Islamic schools today, right, you do have this concept of heaven and hell.
00:16:31.880So I think it's good for kids to learn about things, but not in a way that indoctrinates them.
00:16:37.460Having an imam come to a school is really, I think, you know, it's dangerous for children.
00:16:45.020And it is because they do have this idea of indoctrination in mind.
00:16:50.260I don't know if you saw, I wish I had the details of it, but there was this, I think I'm going to say in Egypt,
00:16:57.520there was this, the Saudi government had given a lot of money for sort of a theological department at this university.
00:17:07.460And I was reading how the professor who was chair of that department had been fired because the Saudi, one of the representatives of the Saudi government was wanting to see his notes and wanted him to say things like Islam is a better religion than the other religions.
00:17:27.300and he was angry that he was also teaching other religions and not just Islam.
00:17:31.800So it does, you know, there is a lot of indoctrination and this idea of indoctrination
00:17:36.420and trying to veer people to thinking Islam is the best religion.
00:17:42.280You know, the fact that girls and boys need to be separate,
00:17:45.480girls need to be modest and be covered up.
00:17:49.200You know, they shouldn't sing, their voices shouldn't be too loud,
00:17:52.160they shouldn't laugh out loud, they shouldn't be in sports.
00:17:54.680That's all the things that it comes with.
00:17:56.480And imagine saying this to little kids, you know, you heard the Jewish sermon, but there's all these other sermons as well about girls and modesty and, you know, superiority of boys, which is so detrimental to child development.
00:18:12.900And where do you actually stand on the hijab?
00:18:15.040Do you and at what point do you think because I taught in a primary school and you'd see little girls of the age of five, six years old and they'd be wearing them sometimes even younger?
00:20:17.360You have to sit at the back of the classroom.
00:20:19.420That's all what it represents. So it affects child development. And what does it tell a girl growing up that, you know, your body is so disgusting? That's why we all have such huge body image problems. You know, I mean, women everywhere do. But we especially, you know, our bodies are filthy, you know, according to how we've been raised, you know, which is why I did nude protest as well, because it was so difficult for me, but also a way of just saying I'm not going to allow that to to take hold.
00:20:46.560But when it comes to adult women, I think, you know, if a woman wants to wear a veil, well, you know, she has a right to wear a veil.
00:20:54.020And I use the term right, you know, carefully because rights are meant to liberate you, not to oppress you.
00:21:03.420But I think that people, if they want to wear it, they can as adults.
00:21:10.020And I think if you represent a secular state, like as a teacher or if you're a judge, then you shouldn't be wearing religious symbols, you know.
00:21:19.140So I have – but on the borqa, I think it should be banned basically because I do think it's a body bag for women and it's just so – I mean, people who defend it should actually walk in it for half an hour to see how it feels.
00:21:34.000It is like being buried alive in my opinion.
00:21:36.900right well and the thing you say about people's rights as well i mean from what i know a lot of
00:21:43.180women are put in a position where they they're not forced to but you know they're very strongly
00:21:49.980encouraged to wear the veil or the burqa because male relatives insist on it or whatever that's
00:21:55.840not really a right that someone's exercising is it that's a form of compulsion being used
00:21:59.940coercion coercion yeah definitely i think you know this whole idea of saying it's a right and a choice
00:22:05.860is the fact that you've submitted to something
00:22:11.460doesn't make it a right-hand choice, you know,
00:23:53.820I was an atheist long before I was an ex-Muslim.
00:23:56.060But I think the term is really important for us because it's a way of challenging many ideas.
00:24:04.020One, the idea that, you know, Muslims are a homogenous community and everybody agrees with ISIS and the Islamic State of Iran and Saudi Arabia or the Muslim Council of Britain or the local imam.
00:24:17.580No, it's also like any group of people, there are so many differences of opinion in there, there are feminists in there, there are socialists in there, there are atheists in there.
00:24:27.320So saying ex-Muslim sort of breaks that idea that minorities are homogenous and dissent exists in our communities and we have a right to speak out and criticize ideas that we think are misogynist and homophobic and inhuman.
00:24:41.220And also, it's, you know, because it's so difficult to criticize Islam or to leave Islam.
00:24:51.520Of course, you know, in, I don't know, 13 countries, you can be executed for blasphemy.
00:24:57.360In 11, you can be executed for being an apostate.
00:25:01.240Given that situation, it's important to say we're ex-Muslims, we're apostates,
00:25:05.720because it's a way of challenging it and saying that, you know, you say we don't exist,
00:25:10.400or you try to silence us when you do find out that we exist.
00:25:13.860So this is a way of us coming out publicly and saying we exist.
00:25:17.880And the public renunciation is a form of resistance as well, you know.
00:25:23.220So from that situation, it's important.
00:25:25.780But for me, you know, I come from an Iranian background
00:25:27.720where there is quite a large anti-Islamic backlash in Iran.
00:25:32.480I mean, it's, you know, the mullahs are despised, you know.
00:25:35.860I mean, there was a funny story where, you know,
00:25:38.620because our parliament is full of mullahs, right, because it's an Islamic state.
00:25:42.280And he came late to the parliamentary session, and it was televised,
00:25:45.820and he was saying that he couldn't get a cab dressed up as a mullah.
00:25:49.140So he had to go home and wear street clothes, like normal trousers and a shirt,
00:25:53.520before a taxi would pick him up to take him to the assembly.
00:29:45.180So certainly in that time, you could say quite credibly that Christians were being barbaric towards heretics, etc.
00:29:53.780And is it unfair to say that now in the times that we live in now, Islam has the lead, if you like, in terms of, you know, violence, terrorism, oppression of women, treatment of minorities, etc.
00:30:11.980Is it not the case that right now, in this moment in time, Islam is more extreme in those things, in terms of practice?
00:30:21.280Maybe in the books it's all the same, but in terms of practice.
00:30:24.880But, you know, for me, I think I would say, well, I focus on Islam.
00:30:29.060So for me, I think it is a major threat to world peace and rights and so on and so forth.
00:30:34.400But I do think that it's that all religions are capable of it.
00:30:38.140And I do think that if they don't do it, it's because they don't have the access to power that Islamic states do.
00:30:45.820But the minute they do, they will do the same.
00:30:49.320I mean, if you look at, for example, the white nationalists, their politics is based on the Bible, for example.
00:30:57.420And, you know, in the U.S., they've killed more people than the Islamists have.
00:31:02.940And we're seeing a rise of white supremacists here in Europe as well.
00:31:10.040They've got states that are outlawing abortion or making abortion really difficult.
00:31:14.620So the more power they have, you do see the effects on women's rights, on human rights, on gay rights.
00:31:23.560And, you know, and again, in places in Africa, for example, where children who are a bit disobedient are considered witches and that they're thrown out or they're made to eat pieces of their own flesh.
00:31:36.140I mean, these are things that the church there, in Nigeria, for example, encourages.
00:31:41.340So I do think that a nice, cuddly religion is one that has no power, and they're forced to, you know, do soup kitchens and help the homeless.
00:31:49.280And even then, their sinister messages are always there, you know.
00:31:53.240You need to come to church, and then we'll give you some food to eat, you know.
00:31:57.040Come for the prayer session, and then we'll give you a bed.
00:31:59.940There's always that sort of attempts to indoctrinate vulnerable people, which makes it even more outrageous, you know, because it's people at their lowest point that they're trying to help, you know.
00:32:12.780So I think with Islam, we're seeing the true face of religion because it's got the power to do, to put its, you know, practice where its thoughts are.
00:32:26.000What about someone like the UK, for example? I think it's reasonable to argue Islam isn't the dominant religion of the UK. Yeah, we do have terrorist attacks here and things like that that we don't have from Jews or Christians or whatever. And this is why I said we had lots of questions that we were kind of reluctant to ask because it's a very difficult thing. I'm not suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists or whatever.
00:32:49.400Of course. But if you look up on the news and you see a terrorist attack in this country with a suicide bomber, you kind of know where that's coming from. Do you know what I mean?
00:32:57.640Yeah, of course. A hundred percent. I agree. But I think, for example, the Jewish settlers in Palestinian territories, they are honestly, they are the Jewish right, you know, and the Christian right that, for example, killed the MP here in Britain.
00:33:17.240Yeah, Joe Cox, or, for example, attacked the mosques in New Zealand.
00:33:22.700You know, you've got, you know, the Buddhists, right?
00:33:24.880The Buddhists are supposedly the loveliest, kindest people,
00:33:27.540but they are massacring Muslims in Myanmar and Sri Lanka, yeah?
00:33:35.120Or now, look at what's happening in Sri Lanka after the attack on the churches.
00:33:42.060Muslims, I don't know if you've seen some of the videos,
00:33:44.260They are so heartbreaking of just Muslims who are going about their business, being dragged into the streets, being attacked by mobs, and they're Buddhists who are doing it, you know, a Buddhist majority.
00:33:56.700And also in India, for example, we've seen the rise of the Hindu, right?
00:34:01.740You know how many people, how many Muslims have been killed in India for eating beef or for selling beef because the cow is sacred in India?
00:34:10.100I mean, I was looking at a map with all these dots of people who've been killed.
00:36:47.720but you know the problem is if it's in the educational system if it's in the law if it's
00:36:52.380in the state then it makes lives really difficult for so many people the one thing that i find is
00:36:57.940that when we talk about these subjects i'll be honest with you i'm sweating more than i would
00:37:02.860do at the gym and my back trenched but here's the thing you know we talk about it this this is an
00:37:09.820important conversation it needs to be discussed it needs to be discussed openly rationally calmly
00:37:15.220the problem is is we don't have these conversations because we're terrified right because part of me
00:37:21.480you know when we grew where i grew up i was in the 80s and 90s i remember salman rushdie i remember
00:37:26.640the satanic verses i remember the fatwa that was put up against him and then you know the you know
00:37:31.000the extremists and all the rest of it but also as well you know because we don't talk about it
00:37:37.140again it means that the tommy robinsons of the world and the far right go okay i can exploit
00:37:44.120this and because they're savvy they go well no one's talking about it yeah i mean that pisses
00:37:50.420me off though to be honest because when they say no one's talking about it we're we fled our
00:37:56.940countries because we're talking about it people are getting killed and arrested every day in all
00:38:01.740of our countries in the middle east and north africa because they're talking about it because
00:38:05.660they're resisting very often women are the front lines of it and then you know they come and say
00:38:10.520we're the only ones talking about it. No, you're not. First of all, that's a big lie in and of
00:38:16.600itself because we've had the Council of Ex-Muslims. We've had One Law for All. We have the movement
00:38:23.620for unveiling in Iran. We've got the movement in Algeria against Sharia courts. We've got the
00:38:29.620demand for secularism in Turkey by women's rights activists, by other activists there.
00:38:34.400You just name it. You've got the fastifying movement in Morocco, in Algeria, you know, young people coming out and smoking in the streets and being arrested and being beaten, but saying, you fast if you want, but we have a right not to fast if we don't want.
00:38:48.940People have been doing that. You've got all these refugees fleeing. Most of them are coming from Islamic states. Most of them are coming from Islamic states.
00:38:56.380Why do you think they're fleeing? Because when you have a theocracy, everything you do becomes a challenge to that state. How you dress, what music you listen to, who you have sex with, all of that becomes political acts of defiance.
00:39:10.300And so all these people are having a say. They're voting with their feet. They're resisting even by doing personal things that they deserve to do as human beings living in the 21st century.
00:39:24.300And then Tommy Robinson comes and says they're the only ones talking about it.
00:39:27.920Well, here's the thing with Tommy Robinson, right?
00:39:29.540We get a lot of criticisms because lots of people want us to interview him.
00:39:33.740Under this interview right now, people are putting comments as they watch this,
00:39:49.980You know how many women's rights groups have been working on that,
00:39:52.460you know, on honor crimes, on FGM, on forced marriages. This is a woman's rights issue.
00:39:59.260Who the fuck is Tommy Robinson? I'm sorry. What defense of women's rights has he done?
00:40:04.680He's using the grooming gangs in order to sort of say that, you know, he's the only one speaking
00:40:10.180about it. And then he's done things that could have jeopardized the court case.
00:40:14.660No, but before that, so my understanding, hold on, I could be wrong, but let me just put this
00:40:19.740counterpoint yeah right because in preparing for this for our interview i just wanted to kind of
00:40:24.380understand the history of it so my understanding and this could be completely wrong but you tell
00:40:28.280me what you think is that he started the edl because uh a cousin of his or something like that
00:40:34.400was raped something like this right and the the argument goes was raped by a muslim as i understand
00:40:41.560it okay is that true because so much of what he says isn't true so that's my understanding yeah
00:40:46.460OK, so and in confronting that fact in Luton, what he found was there were lots of these stories of young white girls who had been raped by Muslims.
00:40:58.920And in doing so, he then discovered that this was happening around the country, which he says is why he started the EDL and why they were protesting about this.
00:41:09.140And when we say, well, no one is talking about this, I take your point that there are lots of people who were talking about this.
00:41:16.460but maybe not having the voices heard.
00:41:37.000They don't care about what's happening in Iran.
00:41:38.980They don't care about what's happening in Saudi Arabia.
00:41:40.740They care about what's happening in their community, right?
00:41:43.660So they might say that Tommy Robinson, for all his faults, was the one person speaking up for their daughters.
00:41:52.160OK, well, you know, unfortunately, I didn't know you were going to ask this because I would have done more research on this specific thing,
00:41:57.700because we've done a report on the EDL and nowhere in its founding did it talk about rape and Rotherham and things.
00:42:04.020So I think this is sort of historical revision, I would say.
00:42:06.780And I'm confident enough to say it because I know enough about them to know that this was never mentioned initially.
00:42:12.660But because it's got traction now, now the whole history of the EDL is based on this.
00:42:18.660But even if that's the case, and it's like outrageous and so sad if anyone is raped and his cousin was raped, I think that's such a tragedy.
00:42:26.960But again, you know, placing collective blame is what groups like Tommy Robinson and the EDL do.
00:42:32.240Because, for example, I've had white people say, you fucking foreigner, get out of the country.
00:42:36.680And then if I start an organization that focuses on white people, it's not really addressing racism.
00:42:44.400Because it's sort of like to address racism, not only white people are racist, first of all.
00:42:51.620There are lots of anti-racists who are white in the same way that there are lots of Muslims who are pro-women's rights, who are not raping girls.
00:42:59.500And it's not just a question of white girls being raped.
00:43:02.160There are non-white girls being raped.
00:43:05.060That's something we've been fighting for, you know, because they only see Britain as white and Christian.
00:43:10.340It's as if their only concern is for white women and only white women who have been raped by Muslims, not by other, not by the priests.
00:43:18.720You know, they haven't started a campaign about pedophilia in the church, for example.
00:43:22.640I mean, if you're concerned about rape and child abuse and sexual abuse, it's something that is much more all encompassing as well.
00:43:30.120But I agree there has been this, of course, a cover up.
00:43:34.240We know that, right? We know that now. The police don't want to talk about it. Even with FGM, you've got the police commissioner saying it's discriminatory to talk about this. It's targeting a community. Well, it's not discriminatory for the woman who's been mutilated. It's bloody good if you do something for her, right?
00:43:50.760So I do agree that there is this climate. But I also think that groups like Tommy Robinson's and all, they're not women's rights groups. They're using these issues in order to further their cause. And what is their cause? Their cause is not human rights. It's not a defense of secularism.
00:44:08.940Because really, I think as a basis, religious and non-religious people need to agree that we need secular societies to protect both the religious and the non-religious.
00:44:18.940So they're quite happy defending a Christian Europe, a Christian Britain.
00:44:23.700They have no problems with the church and its rulings on so many aspects of people's lives.
00:44:29.620Their focus is on Islam because they're anti-Muslim and they're anti-migrant.
00:44:33.500And I think that's what my problem is with them.
00:44:36.600They're using this issue. And like what happened with the trial as well of the groomers, what Tommy Robinson did could have jeopardized the case. And that's quite crucial because you want them to be tried. You want them behind bars. You want the full force of the law against people like that. But it's not just concern. It shouldn't just be concern for white girls, for all girls who are being raped and abused.
00:45:05.140But that was a, it seems like that was a particular problem within one community, right?
00:45:11.980And I was going to ask you, do you have any?
00:45:13.980No, because I'm, you know, can you imagine how many non-white girls that those people are raping?
00:45:19.060I would think a lot more because it's your property, you know.
00:45:23.620In fact, the child marriages, the forced marriages, all of that is sexual violence against girls, you know.
00:45:30.420But because it's their culture, it's fine.
00:45:32.420But our white girls, that's not our culture.
00:45:34.260So what you're saying is a lot of those, the statistics we see about Muslim men raping white girls, you suspect that those men were raping lots of Muslim girls or brown?
00:45:46.300I don't know, not necessarily those men.
00:53:43.000Yeah, I mean, just a few days ago, one of my colleagues, Sadia Hamid, was supposed to be on BBC Women's Hour to talk about Ramadan and how child fasting is child abuse.
00:53:54.240And, of course, like one hour before the show went live, they canceled her coming.
00:53:59.260And everybody on the show was fine with child fasting.
00:55:37.540So there's there's that. There's also the fact that, you know, they they think this is the way they think is that because it's a minority, you don't want to that's under attack or being discriminated against.
00:55:51.040You don't want to add to that. But, you know, we're all adults. You know, we have discussions in our families all the time.
00:55:56.920Yeah. Well, there's a lot of screaming and shouting or you just try not to mention things to survive the ordeal.
01:05:52.680Well, we have one more question for you, actually.
01:05:54.380And the question that we always finish up with is what is the one thing that we are not talking about that we really should be talking about as a society?
01:06:02.460I think is seeing how the Islamist that everybody talks about in some ways is one and the same with the white nationalists and the white supremacists.
01:06:16.180I think groups like Britain First, EDL, the National Front in France, for example, they're very much the same political movement as the Islamists.