TRIGGERnometry - ＂Masculinity Isn't Toxic, Our View of Men Is＂

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantin Kissin. And this is a

00:00:09.720 show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. A terrific guest today

00:00:15.300 is a journalist and author of Stand By Your Manhood. Peter Lloyd, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:20.100 Hi, thanks for having me. It's great to have you. Listen, for anyone who hasn't seen the

00:00:25.180 Peter Lloyd destroys feminist videos that populate, that make about 80% of YouTube traffic in the

00:00:32.000 world. Tell everybody, who are you? How are you, where you are? What has been the journey that

00:00:37.040 brings you inexorably here? Okay, so as you said, I'm a journalist, I'm author of Stand By Your

00:00:41.840 Manor. Yes, this brilliant book here. Which I can say that Jordan Peterson actually has a copy of.

00:00:47.620 Oh, wow. So if that isn't like being blessed by the Pope, I don't know what is.

00:00:51.280 um and of course i'm responsible for the sticks and stones meme uh which has got me many pints

00:00:58.460 in pubs over the years which is fantastic and uh i'm now in the process of writing another book

00:01:04.320 on a similar topic and uh continuing to try and defend men from this ongoing culture war which

00:01:12.060 we find ourselves uh embroiled in and why do we need defending because nobody else is doing it

00:01:18.320 and because the attacks are getting more vitriolic, more aggressive, more incendiary than ever.

00:01:26.280 And I just think it's, you know, if we continue down this road for much longer,

00:01:31.860 it's going to be a pretty depressing state of affairs when we get there.

00:01:35.040 And we always hear this term being used, a culture war, and some people will talk about it and say,

00:01:39.820 you know, some people even say that it doesn't exist. To you, what do you think,

00:01:43.160 what does it mean, the term, the culture war?

00:01:45.180 well i mean i think you don't have to look very far for the evidence um only this week the the

00:01:52.480 un the united nations said that covid19 was proof of patriarchy and that society needed to be

00:02:01.000 totally deconstructed and rebuilt in this feminist vision which i'm sure we can all agree would be

00:02:07.820 pretty horrendous uh what else happened we've had even though i mean men suffer from covid

00:02:14.060 significantly more and worse than women. Forget that men have been the highest fatality group

00:02:19.560 of COVID-19. That's irrelevant. You know, when the asteroid hits Earth, it's always women who

00:02:24.840 are most affected. We've had the American Psychological Association publishing formal

00:02:31.600 guidelines saying that masculinity is dysfunctional and that doctors should treat

00:02:36.340 male patients accordingly, which is outrageous. We've also had Gillette telling their customer

00:02:42.320 the base and half the population that they are probably aggressive and abusive and only recently

00:02:49.340 even the dalai lama chimed in on this he said did he did he i thought i thought didn't he get

00:02:53.660 cancelled i thought that to me that was peak twitter when i went on twitter once it was like

00:02:57.680 hashtag cancelled dalai lama he said something about how europe should be for europeans or

00:03:01.920 something like that uh he did but then i think maybe he was keen to redeem himself with the woke

00:03:06.540 He's just bashed men.

00:03:08.020 Yeah, well, it's easy to throw blokes under the bus.

00:03:10.760 So he said that he hoped that there were more women elected to positions of power

00:03:17.400 because they are superior at leading countries.

00:03:21.700 All right.

00:03:22.200 So, I mean, if that is spiritual enlightenment for you, then we're all fucked.

00:03:25.460 Yeah.

00:03:26.020 And maybe he was just trying to get laid.

00:03:27.680 Well, maybe he was going to get laid.

00:03:28.960 I mean, a lot of men do that, right?

00:03:30.420 Yeah.

00:03:30.620 They play that card to get laid.

00:03:33.340 But as I always say, you might get laid in the short term, but you'll get shafted in the long term.

00:03:38.780 So don't do it.

00:03:40.120 So I guess what you're really talking about when you talk about the culture war and some of the examples that you give is that the mainstream narrative has been for quite some time that women are disadvantaged, oppressed, etc.

00:03:52.700 Would you disagree with that?

00:03:54.600 I mean, we obviously saw with the Me Too movement, which went quite far.

00:03:59.400 Let's be honest.

00:03:59.960 I'm sure we'll get into that.

00:04:00.920 but it did expose a lot of wrongdoing by a lot of powerful men. And that sort of behavior exists,

00:04:07.760 right? You know, there was the perpetual talk of the gender pay gap. We've had plenty of guests

00:04:12.840 on to talk about, you know, how that's misunderstood and whatever. But there is a

00:04:17.220 sort of perception that women are sort of more affected by disadvantage in society. And I think

00:04:22.720 we all would know women who have been affected by some of those things. So you're pushing back

00:04:29.780 against that narrative because you feel no one else is yeah i mean a couple of other people are

00:04:34.900 but certainly when i started there weren't many people doing it and i felt really compelled to

00:04:39.880 do something and say something because a i'm a man and so i've got a vested interest in you know

00:04:46.580 our future survival as a species and also because i'm a journalist and it's my duty to kind of report

00:04:51.820 the truth and to speak the truth even if it's unpopular and readers don't necessarily want to

00:04:55.880 hear it and that's especially true if the establishment doesn't want to hear it and

00:05:01.020 as any journalist would know uh you know journalism is very very much feminist friendly

00:05:08.560 there are a lot of feminist columnists out there a lot of editors are kind of you know

00:05:14.000 imbued with that narrative that women are oppressed and need help and that men are

00:05:19.520 oppressors that need to you know to always be taken down a peg or two and uh so would you uh

00:05:26.740 what is your main issue of disagreement with that narrative why do you not think that that's true

00:05:34.080 i probably don't think it's true either but i'm curious to right to get you to explain it so that

00:05:38.680 we can get you cancelled instead of me uh well you know i mean i can have all the beliefs that

00:05:44.320 i have and truly believe in them but also recognize that you know women don't have perfect lives

00:05:49.040 they will experience some encounters of sexism and harassment along the way and of course that's

00:05:54.340 unfortunate and i'd rather it didn't happen but it's also real life men will also face examples

00:05:59.140 of discrimination and harassment and there will be things that happen to them that are unfortunate

00:06:03.260 and then i wish didn't happen what i have a problem with is that the narrative that's so

00:06:08.260 incredibly mainstream and so powerful and is now such a massive cash cow is that it doesn't ever

00:06:13.640 mention any of the issues that face men so it's not really about equality what it's really about

00:06:18.220 is pushing forward this agenda that's very feminist friendly, that's promoting and safeguarding

00:06:23.400 women all the time, frequently at the expense of men. And if we continue to do that, we're going

00:06:27.860 to end up with a male underclass who either check out of society metaphorically or literally.

00:06:34.120 But Peter, don't you think as well that, you know, you say men get harassed, and of course we do,

00:06:39.580 but it's far less than the way women do. You know, it's very rare for a man to get shouted

00:06:46.560 that when walking down the streets and practically every woman i talk to says that when it gets dark

00:06:51.080 they're walking by themselves they put their key in between their fingers and you know so if

00:06:55.340 something happens they can hit and run you know walking down a dark alley they would never do

00:07:01.720 we do it as a matter of course don't you think that there's a they've got a reason to be grumbling

00:07:07.140 but do you not just nearly get mugged like a week ago yeah but i thought him off my point has been

00:07:12.280 made and i haven't even needed to say yeah yeah but i yeah but i got i fought him off because i'm

00:07:16.260 a legend so you know that's what happens when you're an alpha mate now shut up and answer the

00:07:20.500 question so look being male and being female it's a complicated mix of benefits and burdens for both

00:07:29.360 sides no gender has it all good all the time and no gender has it all bad all the time despite

00:07:35.140 what a lot of columnists and feminists would have you believe uh you know if men are oppressive

00:07:41.820 then they must be the worst oppressors in history we pay the most taxes we get the least state

00:07:48.920 support we're the most likely to be violently attacked we're the most likely to be unemployed

00:07:53.540 jailed denied access to our children shafted in a divorce and on top of all that we have to play

00:08:00.660 longer matches at Wimbledon for the same money it's a raw deal it's a raw deal and of course

00:08:06.620 we die sooner. But none of those things are addressed. It's just, you know, fragile masculinity

00:08:12.140 if you try and address any of those issues. And for all the allegations that feminism is

00:08:17.460 interested in true equity, they never address these issues. Well, I mean, there's so many

00:08:23.820 things to pick up on there. Let's start with feminism, because it's a term that actually

00:08:28.120 has so many meanings that it's important to define. So if we talk about feminism as

00:08:33.780 the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated equally i'm he's a russian can you just

00:08:39.220 see the look of disgust on his face as he said those words i imagine that you and i would both

00:08:43.400 be feminists if that was the definition of feminism right i think everybody would be a

00:08:47.260 feminist i'm just ignoring your stupid joke and because i ignored it you look even more stupid

00:08:52.540 that's enough right there sorry francis but you're cancelled for the for the rest of the chat

00:08:57.080 Yeah, I'm just, it's done.

00:08:58.920 And you nearly got mugged.

00:09:00.900 But anyway, so on that definition, we'd all be feminists.

00:09:05.400 Right.

00:09:05.560 So when you're talking about feminism, what is it that you're talking about?

00:09:09.920 It's actually hard to define.

00:09:12.700 I'm not truly sure what feminism is about anymore.

00:09:16.160 It's certainly not about women's liberation in the Middle East.

00:09:19.460 It's certainly not about, you know, the girls in Rotherham who were victims of rape gangs.

00:09:27.080 And it's certainly not in the interest of women who choose not to have a career and want to raise children and be a housewife.

00:09:35.020 So I'm not really sure what feminism is about anymore.

00:09:38.840 But I think probably the most accurate definition is to say it's not about equality.

00:09:43.480 It's trade unionism for women.

00:09:46.100 And usually a certain type of woman, usually a middle class professional woman.

00:09:50.960 And why do you think that feminism, you've touched some very salient points.

00:09:55.680 You know, for instance, the horrors of the grooming gangs where we had Ella Hill and she talked to, I think, was about half a million girls who have been abused or, you know, the way women are being oppressed in places like the Middle East.

00:10:07.140 Why don't they address these particular issues, even though these are very important issues regarding women?

00:10:13.760 Well, what a terrific question that is.

00:10:16.140 I mean, I think we've all been asking that question of feminists for a long time.

00:10:19.320 And I think the answer is, A, it's a thorny issue.

00:10:23.140 And B, it requires effort.

00:10:25.680 And it wouldn't give them any immediate gain in their very nice lives in London or wherever in the country they choose to live.

00:10:33.420 And so they just don't focus on it.

00:10:34.740 All they're interested in is, you know, these kind of mythical pay gap issues or, you know, I mean, recently, I mean, only today I read a story about a woman who's taking legal action against the only male-only club in London called the Garrick, which is very historic.

00:10:52.460 It's a place Laurence Olivier used to hang out in.

00:10:54.820 It's a safe space.

00:10:55.680 You know, it's just a nice space for men together. And I'm happy with that. I'm happy for women to have women-only clubs. But, you know, she's launching this legal campaign against the Garrick. But she's totally fine with all the women-only clubs that exclude men.

00:11:13.640 So, you know, they seem to be filling their minds with all this subterfuge and all these inconsequential matters, which either aren't real or aren't important.

00:11:22.440 And then they don't have time to focus on the really important things, which is difficult and requires complex thought and having to have consistent principles.

00:11:32.020 That's the tricky bit. And I always say that to feminists, both male and female.

00:11:36.080 I say this to feminists is that the trick is you've got to apply your principles consistently.

00:11:41.700 so you know and that's the hard bit there's a lot of inconsistency flying around definitely

00:11:46.820 let's talk about men though because i think that what you said which is men checking out

00:11:52.620 is a big part of why this issue concerns me and concerns us because uh i think what you're

00:12:00.660 talking about broadly speaking is quite accurate which is there's a sort of unspoken or sometimes

00:12:06.300 spoken feeling that there's something wrong with men men by definition are bad masculine qualities

00:12:12.920 that traditionally would be considered virtues and our vices etc and we have seen this sort of

00:12:20.660 particularly fueled by the internet and the ability of people with sort of very peculiar

00:12:25.340 ways of thinking to band together and to reinforce each other's whatever the sort of incel and all

00:12:33.340 of this sort of stuff. And I don't know whether you feel, I feel all of that is deeply unhealthy

00:12:37.700 for men and for women, for there to be this sort of, you know, pressure on men, and then they

00:12:43.920 check out, and then you end up in this really weird place between men and women. Is that your

00:12:48.660 take on it as well? Or do you have a sort of different perspective? No, I agree. I don't

00:12:52.520 think it's masculinity that's toxic. I think it's the narrative about masculinity that's toxic.

00:12:57.560 We, you know, we hear all the time that we shouldn't body shame people, or we shouldn't

00:13:02.380 slut shame people we shouldn't make people feel bad because if you do that then it might damage

00:13:06.360 their mental health and who knows what that will lead to and yet despite being told that

00:13:11.640 the exact opposite is true when men are spoken about they're told that they're defective they're

00:13:17.700 deficient that they should be more like women that they're emotionally illiterate uh you know

00:13:22.620 they are told that they are potential abusers in waiting and really that there's surplus of

00:13:28.620 requirements we're constantly told the future is female messages like this and i it doesn't take a

00:13:34.540 rocket scientist to work out that after a while that builds up and it's cumulative and if you are

00:13:41.560 i mean i'm lucky i've never been clinically depressed but if i were depressed or if i was

00:13:46.360 feeling disenfranchised that narrative over a relatively relatively short period of time could

00:13:53.320 easily push someone over the edge or push someone at least to the point of checking out of

00:13:58.560 society and do you think we have we're facing a crisis of masculinity at the moment men going that

00:14:04.140 not really certain what their role is in the world no i think that's bollocks finally another episode

00:14:09.420 and not even by me peter keep going mate carry on if i can be frank i think it's bollocks yeah i i

00:14:16.160 think uh you know if masculinity is in a state of flux because of perhaps where we are in the

00:14:21.640 states of the world then you know what so is femininity men are in no more a state of crisis

00:14:26.900 than women are um and so i think really the reality is that we need to stop focusing on

00:14:34.720 men at being a fault and holding womanhood as the gold standard because it's just not true

00:14:39.740 and you mentioned male mental health obviously if anyone is watching this and are affected by

00:14:43.820 as a man you need to man up but i make the joke deliberately to make the point that

00:14:50.080 i mean i think we definitely do treat men and women differently um do you but do you think

00:14:56.380 i mean i feel with mental men male mental health i thought you're gonna say mental men then mental

00:15:02.120 men mental health same thing enough about you francis yes same thing but um i almost feel like

00:15:08.560 we're starting to move too far now where it's like oh i mean one of the important qualities for men

00:15:14.760 and the three of us will know this if you want to do anything in life you do need a dose of sort of

00:15:19.560 get on with it attitude right so teaching men to be more like women and talking about their

00:15:25.560 feelings all the time i'm not sure that's helpful to young men it's totally not helpful men and

00:15:30.220 women process emotions and their feelings and their life experiences in different ways all the studies

00:15:35.980 show that men are typically more emotionally flat throughout whatever they're going through

00:15:41.200 whereas women tend to be more up and down and that's fine it's what i was saying earlier is

00:15:46.760 that we treat the female experience the female way of doing things as the gold standard and how

00:15:50.860 men should behave and it just doesn't translate and i really get frustrated with this narrative

00:15:56.580 and you see it all the time whenever there's talk about male suicide or male mental health

00:16:01.200 it's the implication is always that the men themselves are to blame rather than the really

00:16:08.220 grotesque culture in which they're forced to live so it's you know uh this man's depressed and he's

00:16:13.560 suicidal that's because he's not able to talk about his feelings and he's not able to cry

00:16:18.360 if he opened up more he'd feel much better and he wouldn't be such a burden on society

00:16:22.920 and you think maybe that isn't the problem maybe the problem is what made him to feel suicidal in

00:16:28.920 the first place which might just be the fact that who knows he's been divorced and he's not allowed

00:16:33.500 to see his children or that he's lost his job after all men are the majority of the unemployed

00:16:38.080 in this country or maybe it's the fact that he's just sick of being told that he's unwelcome in

00:16:45.540 modern britain and do you think part of the problem as well is that we expect and we've

00:16:50.360 touched on it as well we expect men and women to be exactly the same that there's no difference

00:16:54.380 between men and women when we both know and everyone knows that there is yet somehow there's

00:17:00.060 this narrative being propagated it's like there should be no difference between the sexes whatsoever

00:17:04.820 right but what always makes me laugh is that we are told exactly that there are no differences

00:17:10.160 between the sexes there is no such thing as a male and female brain even though we know that's

00:17:14.500 not true yes that there's lots of overlap but there are differences between the male and female

00:17:18.980 brain so we're told that they're exactly the same that gender is a social construct until it benefits

00:17:24.700 women and then and then we hear ah see females are better leaders because they're more compassionate

00:17:31.280 and men aren't compassionate so you know or women are just more women advance better at a younger

00:17:36.920 age girls grow up and mature better than boys because that's just how they're wired i think

00:17:41.220 that's true yeah no i think it's true but it's funny that we say oh there are no differences

00:17:45.500 between the genders until it benefits girls yeah yeah absolutely broadway's smash hit the neil

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00:18:25.240 and fell out of place

00:18:26.280 because you didn't speak

00:18:27.200 the language?

00:18:27.920 No, because I voted Brexit, mate.

00:18:29.780 Brexit means Brexit.

00:18:31.560 I know that when you go

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00:18:33.280 sometimes you don't speak

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00:19:36.960 explain how to spell the word trigger because that would be patronizing the thing that worries me i

00:19:45.020 i'm really glad we have you on the show because i think this is a really important conversation

00:19:48.660 but the thing that worries me at the back of my head is i don't want men and women to be in this

00:19:55.780 sort of conflict the battle of the sexes is the most retarded thing i've ever heard right too much

00:20:00.180 fraternizing with the enemy right right like it i men and women need each other you know it's

00:20:07.340 always been that way it will always be that way that's the way it is right so for for everybody

00:20:12.120 to do this sort of let's do a tally of the of what men suffer from and let's do a tally of what women

00:20:17.580 suffer from and let's compare notes and go no no we're more oppressed no we're more oppressed right

00:20:21.700 that is the most counterproductive and stupid thing i've ever fucking heard right and yet here

00:20:27.260 we are sort of doing it right so how do we have a more healthy conversation about these issues

00:20:31.980 well i think a lot of the responsibility lies with the the sisterhood really i think they need

00:20:40.380 to moderate themselves and we were talking earlier about the labor party weren't we and how and they

00:20:44.520 kind of moderated slightly now kia starmer is is the leader of the party and i think maybe it will

00:20:50.520 take somebody or some group of people to you know to kind of modulate the message that comes out of

00:20:58.440 the sisterhood um but i also think that it's it's different for men because or at least i feel like

00:21:06.140 my motivation in doing this is not to come across as the victim because i don't really think

00:21:12.320 i think men can be disadvantaged and sometimes systematically but i don't really think of us as

00:21:17.800 victims. I don't really think of women as victims either. But, you know, I feel like my motivation

00:21:26.660 is good and men discussing this would also have good motivation because they're defending something

00:21:31.980 that's being attacked rather than attacking someone else. I think that's the difference

00:21:36.760 between how men and women approach this debate. But I totally agree that, you know, the genders

00:21:42.560 are you know men and women are the yin and yang of the genders right and we are designed to you

00:21:48.900 know couple up and procreate and all those other things and life would be pretty boring if there

00:21:54.060 was only one gender in the world unfortunately there's 27 64 actually you bigger there's been

00:22:01.420 one invented since we started this interview but one thing that i really wanted to talk to you

00:22:06.940 is fathers because there's this idea now that you know that a single mom can bring up her kids and

00:22:14.340 of course she can all the rest of it but fathers are a little bit redundant we don't need dads we

00:22:18.780 don't need them do you agree with that well i agree that that's that's the message that's put

00:22:24.340 out yeah and it's frequently believed but i think that all the evidence points to the contrary if

00:22:29.320 you look at all the data on this children who grow up in families without fathers are frequently

00:22:35.600 more disadvantaged they frequently fail more academically professionally generally in life

00:22:42.620 and you know that lack of a role model can sometimes lead to things like you know gang

00:22:47.720 culture so I think it's a myth I think people are deluding themselves if they believe that

00:22:55.380 you can have a family and that if the absence of a father isn't going to make a big difference I

00:23:01.820 I mean, if my father, who I love dearly and I'm very close to him, I'm very lucky,

00:23:08.040 if he died, God forbid, people would say, I'm so sorry for your loss.

00:23:14.340 What a huge hole in your life you would have.

00:23:18.560 And yet, if I never had him from the start, people would never even think that.

00:23:23.220 They wouldn't think that I had a hole in my life.

00:23:25.440 They would just think, well, what did you need a father for? You had a mother.

00:23:27.880 but i would also say to women it's bs that you think you can raise the child on your own a lot

00:23:34.320 of single mothers do a very good job of raising children and you know often suffer a lot of

00:23:39.980 hardship but come through it anyway but most of the time they're reliant on the state so they

00:23:44.460 might not have a husband who they rely on financially or for support but instead what

00:23:49.000 they do is they rely on the state and who is the state most funded by men so they might not be

00:23:56.280 relying on the fathers of their children but they're relying on other men it's a really difficult

00:24:00.880 thing to talk about because i think i have tremendous admiration for single mothers in

00:24:05.880 the sense that it is incredibly difficult to bring up a child with two parents right you know

00:24:11.300 to do it on your own is really difficult and i have tremendous respect for women who do that

00:24:15.280 and do a good job but there's no denying that it's more difficult it makes you it makes your

00:24:20.500 job more difficult as a mother and it's more difficult for the child it's more difficult for

00:24:24.940 them to they need positive role models that they don't necessarily have as you say the evidence

00:24:29.800 shows that children without fathers are much more likely to to get in trouble to go to prison etc

00:24:34.960 etc but i think there's this desire to somehow cover it up by pretending that anyone who talks

00:24:41.360 about the need for fathers is really just blaming the single mothers when i i think it's much more

00:24:46.080 of actually an area where men do need to step up step up you know yeah and i'm not in any denial

00:24:51.780 over the fact that there are lots of feckless fathers out there and there are lots of men who

00:24:55.640 who could step up and do a much better job of raising their children but at the same time

00:24:59.980 let's be honest it's 2020 and for all the talk of equality fathers in this country and throughout

00:25:08.140 the west including america do not have equal parenting rights how can that possibly be a thing

00:25:14.800 for decades of talk about equality and fairness and equity, fathers still don't have equal rights.

00:25:23.060 So men are expected to do 50% of the childcare. They're expected to do 50% of the financial

00:25:29.760 rearing of a child. And yet they don't have 50% rights over that child. That's absurd.

00:25:38.540 And people wonder why fathers are disenfranchised from the system.

00:25:41.920 So you say that they don't have 50% of rights.

00:25:44.340 What does that actually mean, Peter?

00:25:45.780 Let's break it down.

00:25:46.580 What does that actually mean in legal terms?

00:25:49.300 Well, if you're a man and you're married and your relationship breaks down,

00:25:54.180 you can essentially lose any visitation rights to your child overnight.

00:25:58.840 You might go to court, spend a small fortune on legal fees with solicitors.

00:26:03.060 You might be in mediation with your ex-partner for months

00:26:06.060 and you can get all the court orders you need and nobody will enforce them.

00:26:10.760 Yeah, well, we actually have a mutual friend who essentially had to sell his house just to be able to see his kids.

00:26:15.300 Right. And that happens all the time. All the time.

00:26:21.520 I get phone calls and emails about it. People saying, what am I going to do? I'm stuck in this situation.

00:26:26.540 I can no longer see my children. I still need to bankroll them. I still need to finance them and pay child support.

00:26:31.260 If I don't, I'll be sent to prison. But my ex-wife won't be penalized for stopping me seeing my kids.

00:26:37.920 And for me, that's heartbreaking.

00:26:39.180 I think that's, of course, yes, the reflectors father,

00:26:42.340 but the much bigger issue is the system that excludes them deliberately.

00:26:47.880 And a lot of people say they're a bias.

00:26:51.200 The family courts are biased, particularly in the UK.

00:26:53.700 I can't comment about America.

00:26:55.200 But I know people who've been through the family courts.

00:26:57.340 They say that they're biased.

00:26:58.800 Would you agree with that?

00:27:00.140 Fuck yeah.

00:27:02.000 So you've mentioned one thing.

00:27:03.360 What else?

00:27:03.740 How else are they biased?

00:27:04.640 the family court system yeah or the court system in general the court system but particularly the

00:27:10.300 family court system well i mean if a father's name is not a birth certificate then he isn't

00:27:17.040 even legally recognized as the father anyway so i mean that's forget whatever dna is there forget

00:27:23.400 science we talk about you've talked about science denialism on the show before you know that man's

00:27:29.020 DNA is just wiped from existence in the situation of that family.

00:27:34.780 You know, there are even examples where men have been forced

00:27:38.300 to pay child support for children that aren't even his.

00:27:42.400 I mean, only recently there was a case where a man was forced

00:27:45.420 to pay child support for a child who he'd raised for about 14 years.

00:27:49.340 Later transpired that the child wasn't his, the wife had lied,

00:27:53.660 and courts still forced him to pay child support.

00:27:58.700 Wow.

00:27:59.020 There have been other cases where there was one situation where a couple had gone to an IVF clinic

00:28:09.060 and he donated sperm and during the process of this they'd split up

00:28:14.740 and he had decided that he didn't want to continue with this journey

00:28:18.280 and didn't want to have children with his partner because they were no longer together.

00:28:21.400 She forged his signature on a form, got access to the sperm, was inseminated,

00:28:25.760 had a child, took him to court. And even though his consent was violated, we're told about the

00:28:30.920 importance of consent all the time, his consent was violated. He was still forced to pay child

00:28:35.580 support for a child he didn't even consent to having. Wow. That's terrifying. And also,

00:28:40.980 don't give your sperm to anyone, mate. And also, you know, paternity fraud is a huge issue that

00:28:46.740 is never, ever spoken about. There hasn't been a single conviction for paternity fraud in this

00:28:50.780 country that's really interesting i mean the one thing that again and i i'm really glad we have you

00:28:57.060 on the show to talk about this because i think it's really important and to be able to talk about

00:29:01.560 men and the problems that we have uh in the sort of unfiltered way i think is important i really do

00:29:06.420 uh but i do worry with it because and i tell you why um that i have this feeling like when i when

00:29:13.400 i listen to some of the way that the in these incels talk or these other there are other groups

00:29:17.760 of men who are just bitter and resentful that's what they are right they've checked out they hate

00:29:21.700 women many of them genuinely hate women they talk about them and it's disgusting disparaging ways

00:29:26.960 i don't i don't like it i don't think that's the way for us to go um but i just i wonder what the

00:29:34.400 constructive way to deal with it is because meninism will never work for men it'll never

00:29:42.320 work for us because we don't elicit the same compassion that women do that's just how we're

00:29:46.180 word so talking about the problems of men will never work the way feminism has worked it just

00:29:53.380 won't and this is my opinion i think i'm right as i always do so to me the solution is always

00:30:01.760 to get men and women back together to the realization that we need each other we need to

00:30:06.520 work together women we were talking actually before the show started and we were talking about

00:30:10.560 how some aspects of femininity are just like magic to men we just look at that and go wow

00:30:14.980 you can do that incredible you know i remember the first time like i saw my mom resolve an issue

00:30:20.780 with someone else where my dad and i would have dealt with it through some kind of confrontation

00:30:25.460 or aggression and she just came and she went oh that's so nice she just smiled and boom the whole

00:30:30.740 problem and i was like oh my god you can do that you know so so i feel like the way to deal with

00:30:36.680 this is to sort of get men and women learning from each other working together realizing they

00:30:41.920 need each other um do you think we're sort of that's a realistic objective at this point

00:30:47.840 well it's of course the ideal but i don't think it's going to happen from just having nice

00:30:54.200 fluffy conversations yeah uh you know it's been a couple of years since i wrote that book

00:30:59.500 and most of the sisterhood just don't care you can present them with facts they're just not

00:31:06.460 interested and i think what's happened is feminism has become such a lucrative industry now it's

00:31:12.880 almost taken on a different life form i think initially it was a very noble purpose you know

00:31:19.200 there were certainly times in history when women have been disadvantaged they couldn't go to

00:31:22.220 university it was only in i think the 1960s when women couldn't get a mortgage on their own

00:31:26.840 because they were reliant on a husband uh so you know i can appreciate there have been

00:31:32.260 difficulties for them but now as they've acquired more equality it seems to have taken on a different

00:31:38.980 form it seems to have shape-shifted into now almost an industry in itself a business and it

00:31:44.580 is lucrative i mean if you look at women's aid for example they received last year something like

00:31:51.140 five and a half million pounds

00:31:52.720 and nearly a million pounds of that was from the department of culture media and sport

00:32:01.240 so just for existing they get i mean i'm sure they have a lot of outgoings but

00:32:05.700 they get almost a million pounds a year from the government and what is a charity women's aid

00:32:11.700 what what is what is women's oh so for those who don't know it's a it's a domestic violence shelter

00:32:17.960 but yeah one of my issues with that is that um of course yes anybody who suffers domestic violence

00:32:25.120 should be helped but once again all the data shows that most victims of domestic violence

00:32:30.060 It's almost 50-50 men and women.

00:32:32.860 There have actually been some studies that show that women are actually more violent than men,

00:32:37.720 although maybe in less damaging ways.

00:32:43.320 That's actually very interesting that you bring that up.

00:32:46.280 I have a friend who ended up getting divorced because his former wife was violent to him.

00:32:53.080 But it doesn't get spoken about or talked about in the same way as when it happens to women.

00:32:59.760 No, it doesn't.

00:33:00.420 And it also gets ridiculed.

00:33:01.880 But isn't that just biology, though?

00:33:04.060 Because men, on average, are bigger and stronger.

00:33:06.000 And we just expect, like, as you say, it's less damaging.

00:33:09.180 So if your wife slaps you around the face, it's not the same as a guy punching his wife.

00:33:14.900 Do you know what I mean?

00:33:15.520 Well, there is an element of that.

00:33:16.960 I think you're correct.

00:33:17.840 But at the same time, any difference in strength is neutralized when she picks up a knife and stabs you in the back.

00:33:24.580 So it's really rubbish that women can't be violent.

00:33:27.860 And also, men's hands are tied when they are suffering from violent women

00:33:32.720 because they are culturally taught you must never hit a woman, even in self-defence.

00:33:38.240 And so, you know, Jordan Peterson speaks about this.

00:33:40.740 How do men handle difficult women?

00:33:43.380 Nobody knows. No men are ever taught that.

00:33:46.260 Francis knows. Just obey.

00:33:48.740 Just obey. Shut your mouth. Keep your head down. Don't make eye contact.

00:33:52.640 It's like dealing with a velociraptor.

00:33:54.940 That is not going to help. I hate to break it to you. That's not working.

00:33:57.860 But going back to your original point, before I went off on a tangent and overthought everything,

00:34:03.560 you know, yes, of course, getting men and women back together and finding solutions for these things are great,

00:34:08.340 but I think it's going to have to come the hard way.

00:34:10.300 I think we're going to have to give women uncompromising equality.

00:34:16.000 So I think we're going to have to say, right, you want a draft for men?

00:34:21.360 Like, there's a draft for men in America, and it only applies to men.

00:34:25.300 Right, you've got to do it for women as well.

00:34:26.680 Women, as soon as you hit 18, you've got to sign up for the draft.

00:34:30.960 Parenthood, 50-50 men and women down the middle every time.

00:34:34.460 Women who don't allow fathers access to their children,

00:34:37.660 you lose your passport or you lose whatever certain freedoms that you have.

00:34:41.440 You might even lose custody of the child.

00:34:43.660 I think we need to play hardball with equality

00:34:45.900 to the point where people realise and recognise

00:34:48.800 that the genders bring different things to the table

00:34:51.380 and perhaps we can re-appreciate each side again.

00:34:54.580 so you don't actually want those outcomes you're sort of going well if you want to go down this is

00:34:59.260 where we go or we can go back to sensible conversations about the fact that men and

00:35:03.660 women are different yeah you don't actually want women to be serving in the army well i mean i would

00:35:08.760 rather well i mean i don't have a particular passion for women serving in the army but at

00:35:12.620 the same time i don't want only men to be forced to serve in the army i'd rather it just be open

00:35:16.660 to hey it's voluntary anybody who wants to serve in the army sign up you can do it whereas at the

00:35:23.100 moment, it's only blokes who have to do it. And if they don't do it, they're denied all

00:35:26.180 sorts of federal rights and funding and all these other things. So I really think that

00:35:31.560 the way to do it is to kind of almost force inconvenient equality on people.

00:35:36.340 And do you not think, though, what we're experiencing now is a pendulum swinging in

00:35:40.220 favour of women, where once it was in favour of men, and now because, you know, they had

00:35:45.640 it hard for centuries. And now there's a little bit of an overcorrection, but eventually it

00:35:50.500 sort of settle in the centre

00:35:51.740 and we'll all carry on as normal.

00:35:54.080 I love it when people say that.

00:35:57.700 People say,

00:35:58.380 oh, women had it hard for centuries.

00:36:00.480 I'm pretty sure men

00:36:01.800 didn't have it easy either.

00:36:03.940 And if they did have it easy,

00:36:07.560 it wasn't because they were men.

00:36:09.160 It was because of class.

00:36:11.080 If they had it easy,

00:36:11.920 it's because they were middle class

00:36:12.840 or they owned land or property.

00:36:16.460 And the same applied to women.

00:36:17.540 that's the biggest determinate of what your life will be like and what we now

00:36:23.160 call privilege and it still exists today class is the biggest determinate of how your life will turn

00:36:28.240 out not a guarantee but it's a strong determinate not gender and so we look back historically and

00:36:35.920 say it's very difficult for women yeah sure but it was also really difficult for men

00:36:39.180 men who were forced to fight in the trenches of the first world war 95 of them didn't have

00:36:46.640 the right to vote. And yet, middle class women, land owning women who sent them to war, they could

00:36:53.960 vote. Most people don't know that fact, but it's true. It's interesting when you put it that way.

00:36:59.420 You mentioned Jordan Peterson a few times. And I think Jordan Peterson is a fascinating

00:37:04.860 phenomenon that tells you a lot about society and where we've come. Because, look, I've always

00:37:14.380 been interested in personal development and sort of understanding how my brain works growing etc

00:37:19.400 so what jordan peterson was largely saying for the last however many years it wasn't really new to me

00:37:25.200 a lot of people who sort of you know there wasn't really a big thing there you know and this is no

00:37:31.580 disrespect to jordan peterson i think he's a very courageous individual uh i genuinely do and i

00:37:36.560 think the way he speaks is he comes across as very courageous very truthful and people resonate with

00:37:41.700 that but when i watched them i was like yeah i know that kind of thing but it had a huge impact

00:37:47.280 on the world and do you think that and people always made it about his largely male audience

00:37:52.600 and all that do you think the response to jordan peterson was what it was because he was pricking

00:37:58.160 a massive bubble that existed in the sort of weird battle of the sexes and he was saying

00:38:03.660 no it's okay to be a man you're not a bad thing because you're male toxic masculinity is bullshit

00:38:10.540 or whatever it was and he was giving men an out from that sort of insult them that they were being

00:38:16.760 forced into some of them absolutely people were a hungry for truth after decades of being gaslit

00:38:23.420 by all sorts of academics and media figures people were hungry for truth they still are today

00:38:29.220 and he gave them that but he also really added a dimension of that to men who increasingly have

00:38:35.960 very little space to exist in the world where they're spoken to with respect or they're spoken

00:38:41.760 about with respect or in positive ways and certainly in meaningful ways that affect their

00:38:47.260 lives and so the way that Jordan Peterson resonated so loud and for so long with so many people

00:38:55.620 including many women I think was really testament to how big the problem is. Because Jordan Peterson's

00:39:03.960 central message to me from what i've seen of him says it's all right to be male it's all right to

00:39:08.920 want to go out and achieve things and strive and you know and taught you many ways what really your

00:39:16.380 father should have taught you discipline responsibility all of those things yeah all

00:39:20.740 of those things tidy your bedroom that's what your dad should have taught you right uh and yet

00:39:26.400 that was considered a really controversial message yeah which i mean that is telling

00:39:30.420 that such a simple, clear, obvious message

00:39:35.940 was deemed incendiary, problematic, misogynistic.

00:39:41.920 Of course, none of that was the case.

00:39:44.040 But if you deviate from the narrative,

00:39:46.700 as you know, you get kicked out of your studio

00:39:48.960 or you get cancelled or, you know,

00:39:52.740 whatever else happens, the police come knocking

00:39:54.620 and tell you to delete tweets, that kind of thing.

00:39:56.720 Yeah, it's really interesting.

00:39:58.440 uh it it i one of the questions i wanted to ask you is do you think it's sort of getting a bit

00:40:06.280 better now and the reason i ask this is i think if we come back to the culture war which we started

00:40:13.000 with and we look at the whole woke thing as a package i get the sense and maybe it's just my

00:40:18.940 imagination but tell me what you think that the people who were who sort of behind it all or

00:40:23.700 people who are running this whole operation they tried to split men and women because for years

00:40:29.140 there was this massive thing going on and now i don't really hear it as much and maybe that's

00:40:34.420 because they realize that men and women they mean men and women always you know mothers are always

00:40:39.200 going to love their boys even if they are boys even if they have problematic penises and whatever

00:40:44.380 you know uh men and women are still going to pair up and and procreate and have children like

00:40:50.280 you can't really split them up and then they went oh race that's how we separate them

00:40:57.480 i think that's interesting i think probably a lot of feminists are annoyed that race is now

00:41:03.980 the focal point of the narrative i think they had it for so long that you know they had the

00:41:08.980 spotlight for a long time and they loved it and fair play to them they were getting a lot of

00:41:13.300 traction with it but um i think there is something and douglas maury touched on this

00:41:18.980 during your interview with him

00:41:20.920 in that it's very tempting

00:41:22.840 there's something about the human condition

00:41:24.460 something very tempting about pulling

00:41:26.940 that loose thread

00:41:28.060 and destroying the tapestry

00:41:30.760 of what's being created. It may have taken

00:41:32.460 centuries to come about but it's very

00:41:34.720 tempting to destroy it

00:41:35.960 the human ego is

00:41:38.440 epic and these people

00:41:40.800 often think well I have a better vision of how the world

00:41:42.780 should look. Forget what we've known

00:41:44.520 throughout history, my version

00:41:46.780 of the world is going to be better and we're all going to be much

00:41:48.640 up yet but of course that's really the case as we've seen so many times throughout history but

00:41:52.800 yeah i think maybe that maybe there is an element of divide and conquer with with the race aspect

00:41:58.180 and um you know it's at least they've changed the record slightly

00:42:04.260 not in a better direction you know i mean i can't say it's any better but at least

00:42:09.180 at least it's slightly different for a change so where do we go from here because it does feel like

00:42:14.220 you know the media has been there's been a mass over correction i mean people more and more have

00:42:19.340 started to balk at what they feel is you know messages and slogans being rammed down their

00:42:24.560 throat so how do we come to a world where we're just more pleasant to one another and more civil

00:42:30.720 i think probably one of the starting points would be to end the grievance stoking

00:42:37.660 I think that is a crucial, critical, fundamental first step and perhaps that is getting rid of defunding, forget defunding the police, I think we need to defund women's studies at universities and this culture of teaching young girls and young women that they're victims and that they should be suspicious of men and that they're going to go into a workplace which is rigged and stacked against them

00:43:06.180 and that they are, you know, on the back foot before they've even started in life.

00:43:11.420 I understand why that happens, because for the movement to survive, to be future-proof, to continue,

00:43:20.180 it needs new recruits, and those new recruits need to be emboldened and angry.

00:43:24.760 But it causes so much unnecessary grief, A, in a person's mind.

00:43:31.520 I feel for a lot of young women who are kind of gaslit by this message,

00:43:35.000 that they're victims from the off.

00:43:39.700 That's just not the case.

00:43:40.880 Women are, thankfully, more liberated, emancipated,

00:43:45.800 financially independent than they've ever been.

00:43:48.600 They're completely self-determining.

00:43:50.080 Any other women in history would be so envious

00:43:52.680 of where most women are now.

00:43:55.000 Interestingly, they're very unhappy.

00:43:56.780 But of course, they're more unhappy than ever.

00:44:00.340 What do you think that's about? Do you know?

00:44:02.640 well i think they've been told to compete with men as men perhaps prioritize the workplace

00:44:10.000 and the careers over families and although that works really well for some women some women don't

00:44:15.520 want children and of course that's fine uh and they would rather focus on their careers i think

00:44:20.600 really a lot of a lot of women almost saw the lie and and they're told to focus and compete and be

00:44:28.260 in the office late and lean in we hear that message all the time and then what happens is

00:44:33.160 of course because the genders are different women reach 40 and they suddenly realize that oh shit

00:44:39.500 i've left it a bit too late to have children and i know several women who are now unfortunately in

00:44:45.060 that situation do you think part of the problem is as well is that this myth of you can have it all

00:44:50.080 you can have the career the great high-flying career you can have the family you can have the

00:44:55.760 social life you can look a million dollars and the reality is look there's a finite amount of time

00:45:00.980 we can't do everything and the reality is you've just got to pick what you want from life yeah i

00:45:07.260 think that's exactly right you can have it all if you're rich enough so if you can afford to have

00:45:12.680 a nanny and if you can afford to have you know someone whom it perhaps lives in and is a maid

00:45:17.600 and can help you go to work or whatever then maybe you can have it all but for the overwhelming

00:45:24.620 majority of people it's just not the case and that's why the division of labor in the home

00:45:29.500 fell the way it did for so many years the men would go out to the office because it was just

00:45:33.980 easier for them to do that because they weren't having a child and then rearing the child and

00:45:38.260 and so and so that's how families work together and so that that's really where it's gone wrong

00:45:44.280 and on that subject it's kind of interesting isn't it because you mentioned it earlier not

00:45:48.360 only is there stigma uh in certain in men doing certain things or not doing certain things there's

00:45:53.920 actually quite a lot of stigma against women who want to play the traditional role right which i

00:45:59.360 find mind-boggling like isn't women's liberation supposed to be about allowing women to do what

00:46:05.380 they want well you'd think but increasingly that's not the case and often it turns out to be that

00:46:14.400 feminists want women to make choices that are feminist choices they don't really want to make

00:46:21.880 choices that are against the agenda and that should raise a red flag with anyone because

00:46:27.540 surely any movement that's about equality and freedom and liberty just wants people to be

00:46:32.180 self-determining and to you know live by that classically liberal mindset of doing whatever

00:46:36.420 they want that makes them happy um and you know all the all the conversation about slut shaming

00:46:41.440 and body shaming and yet they're shaming all the women for the decisions that they make about their

00:46:45.620 life i think that's sad but even some of those concepts i mean look at slut shame and we had

00:46:49.980 megan murphy the canadian feminist on the show and she was saying basically like women have been

00:46:54.860 told to lie about sex which is women can have sex the way men think about sex and it's not

00:47:00.000 great time it's not true i mean maybe some women can do that some of the time but by and large

00:47:04.660 most of my female friends who do that end up conceding later on we're just not the same i

00:47:12.080 just can't have sex like you have sex so like all the men have sex and it is just a biological

00:47:18.120 difference and of course that is another one of the fraudulent claims that a lot of women are

00:47:24.700 are sold and i know that i speak about men a lot and i defend men and i'm compelled to do that but

00:47:31.120 you know i love women as much as i love men i have two nieces as well as two nephews and i'm invested

00:47:37.440 in their future and their well-being and their happiness as well and and so when i talk about

00:47:41.920 this stuff i really say it with women's interests in mind as well as men's yeah it is we do ignore

00:47:49.840 biology i find it so interesting when i have a female friend who has a baby just watching them

00:47:55.160 completely change their priorities change they can be at many points you know ferocious career

00:48:00.620 driven whatever else they have a child and immediately that becomes their priority and

00:48:05.820 you know what they always say best experience of my life motherhood was the best experience of my

00:48:10.640 life. Loved all the jobs I had up until now. Loved my high-flying career in the city. But being a

00:48:15.800 mother was the most fulfilling thing I ever did. That's what I hear the most.

00:48:22.580 And it's interesting because we say, you know, feminism, you can do anything, whatever you want.

00:48:27.800 But if you saw a 21, 22-year-old girl and she said, you know what, I just want to get married

00:48:31.880 and have babies and have a family and that's all I really want to do. We think that's a bit weird

00:48:36.760 And that's quite sad, isn't it?

00:48:38.740 Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:39.960 Although I don't think many men would have that opinion of her.

00:48:43.620 I think it would be certain types of other women who would frown on her for that.

00:48:49.580 And male feminists.

00:48:50.780 And of course, male feminists who are desperate to get laid.

00:48:53.520 She'd be groping her when she wasn't looking, as we know from left-wing comedians.

00:48:57.800 Got it in this episode.

00:48:58.760 Yeah, we did indeed.

00:49:00.060 And then tweet about International Women's Day.

00:49:02.000 Did you follow this whole thing that happened in the comedy world over lockdown?

00:49:05.320 basically turns out all the left-wing comedians who've been banging on twitter about how

00:49:11.000 we need to do this and men need to be this and that they were largely the ones who were

00:49:17.220 getting up to certain things behind the scenes well imagine my shot

00:49:21.140 who'd have thought it yeah that delightful note um peter uh it's been great having you on i think

00:49:28.640 it's an important conversation and and the thing that there's been the constant like there's a bit

00:49:33.400 of my head that's constantly as we're talking going i don't want this fight i don't want there

00:49:38.180 to be a fight about this i don't want men and women to be fighting i just i don't think that's

00:49:43.940 helpful helpful i don't think that's healthy i don't think that's good for anyone i really really

00:49:47.780 don't and if they do fight they should be married because that's how it should do it in the privacy

00:49:52.220 of their own home yes no but i agree with you but as i said earlier i think it's it's slightly

00:49:56.820 different for men their motivation is coming from a point where they're being defensive they have

00:50:01.740 They're forced to defend their masculinity and their presence in the world and their importance in the world because it's under attack.

00:50:09.460 So I don't really see it as men and women fighting.

00:50:11.960 I see it as men having to defend what's being attacked.

00:50:15.920 Sure, but then that's still a battle, isn't it?

00:50:18.260 Sure, it's not ideal.

00:50:19.780 And I guess what you're saying is the people who are attacking, which is not women, it's certain feminists,

00:50:26.220 they need to stop attacking and then men can stop defending

00:50:29.100 and then people can actually have a healthy dialogue and relationship.

00:50:34.440 Right, and it's not always women who are doing the attacking.

00:50:36.220 I always say that there's a civil war among men.

00:50:38.980 You have some...

00:50:39.760 There is on this podcast.

00:50:42.060 You have some really grim blokes out there like Richard Herring is one.

00:50:48.760 And Matt Haig is another, can't stand him.

00:50:52.460 and who's that other one

00:50:54.260 who used to be in

00:50:55.080 is it Robert

00:50:57.900 Oh Robert Webb

00:51:01.660 Robert Webb

00:51:02.200 What's he done?

00:51:04.360 He wrote a book didn't he

00:51:05.600 about how his masculinity

00:51:07.380 was dysfunctional

00:51:08.520 and how he's realized that

00:51:10.480 you know

00:51:11.520 Chop your dick off Robert

00:51:12.740 and shut the fuck up

00:51:13.740 Yeah so he's written

00:51:15.060 this handbook of how men

00:51:16.240 can be less toxic

00:51:17.600 There you go

00:51:18.520 I've given him advice

00:51:19.400 on how he can do that

00:51:20.360 I wouldn't normally

00:51:21.160 advocate Bernie books

00:51:22.260 but that's different yeah when you were saying Robert I kept thinking you were going to say

00:51:27.060 Mugabe yeah yeah I think I'd probably rather have dinner with Robert Mugabe

00:51:31.420 if someone did have toxic masculinity yeah I could buy it with Robert Mugabe I think he might be up

00:51:39.800 there but um yeah I don't want there to be a war and I think there's got to be a way for for us to

00:51:46.600 get there you know because i this is the other thing i mean the whole incel thing i find really

00:51:52.940 really um i don't know what the word is but i don't like it i think i think it's a problem it's

00:51:58.900 a symptom of a problem and those boys and guys who are getting into that i don't blame them

00:52:04.500 but equally no one's going to help them except them they need to man up they really do they need

00:52:11.160 to you know get better they need to do something creative or productive get a job whatever whatever

00:52:16.980 work on themselves go to the gym work whatever it is they need to do better take responsibility

00:52:21.960 for our lives you know and i feel like that's not happening you know and they're being pushed into

00:52:27.660 that corner like that's really not healthy i think one of the solutions that might happen

00:52:32.180 in bringing the the genders back together is that really feminism and this change in society that's

00:52:40.140 implementing is one great big experiment at the moment we've never really before done anything

00:52:45.460 like what we've done over the last 50 years deconstructing the family and all these other

00:52:49.600 things and so who knows where it's going to lead if the outcome is bad enough then maybe people

00:52:56.460 will realize that you know like we've seen with yeah venezuela you know things don't always

00:53:04.580 operate as they are sold and so i think maybe in the future people will will look at feminism and

00:53:09.720 And historians will look at it and say, so we tried this for 100 years,

00:53:12.860 and actually women were miserable by the end of it.

00:53:15.760 And they've rejected it in favor of balancing work and motherhood,

00:53:19.500 which would be complete common sense.

00:53:21.500 And the thing is as well, if you're a young man now,

00:53:24.860 the truth is still that women are still attracted to men who are men.

00:53:29.480 Right.

00:53:29.840 Right.

00:53:30.640 Like most women, like there's been all sorts of experiments.

00:53:34.980 You show them a picture of like a guy who's well built

00:53:38.240 and sort of strong and masculine versus some soy boy,

00:53:41.240 they always pick the first one, you know, even the woke women.

00:53:45.180 So for guys, the best advice really is just to be you

00:53:48.440 and not be embarrassed about being a man

00:53:50.240 and you're probably going to be all right.

00:53:52.360 Right, absolutely.

00:53:53.820 On that happy note, it's been great talking to you, Peter.

00:53:56.620 We've got one more question as always.

00:53:58.120 Which is the way we end every interview,

00:54:00.440 which is what's the one thing we're not talking about

00:54:02.420 that we really should be?

00:54:05.000 Big vaginas.

00:54:06.980 Okay.

00:54:08.240 right go let's i was going to say let's elaborate why don't we stretch the conversation i've actually

00:54:14.840 got a picture if you wouldn't know by the way i've never seen our producer look so interested

00:54:19.920 in a conversation he looks like he knows what i'm talking about yeah of course he does yeah

00:54:25.320 you know i'm 40 years old i recently turned 40 and i can say that throughout most of my adult life

00:54:31.340 I have had to listen to derisory comments about the penis, how it's not big enough, how it's not fat enough, or how it's not used properly.

00:54:41.900 I'm not talking about my penis, I'm talking about all penises.

00:54:45.020 Penises in general are, breasts are revered, naked women are revered, but the male appendage, the penis, is mocked.

00:54:54.940 Even President Trump is humiliated over allegations about his penis.

00:54:59.080 and I always think this is so unfair

00:55:02.220 when an erect penis is

00:55:03.880 you know, when a man's having sex

00:55:05.740 the erect penis is not in a vacuum

00:55:08.040 it's in a vagina

00:55:08.980 and if there's dissatisfaction

00:55:11.260 maybe we need to start looking at

00:55:13.000 big, slight vaginas

00:55:14.900 That's a great way to end the interview, isn't it?

00:55:20.400 Yeah, I'll be honest with you

00:55:21.440 that took a turn

00:55:22.260 I mean, look, all I'm saying is

00:55:23.860 if women are happy to

00:55:25.180 to talk about men's anatomy

00:55:27.540 in such a horrid way then maybe we should start repaying the favor and you know just in the spirit

00:55:33.740 of equality and on that note our producer has just crossed his legs yeah he has we're going

00:55:39.620 to get him to insert some crickets as we just take a pause we take a pause for the big vagina

00:55:46.820 peter thanks for coming on it's been great to see where can people follow you

00:55:50.240 and find out what you're getting up to so i'm probably in the process of getting blocked on

00:55:54.600 twitter it's for a gentleman and uh i write for lots of different sites so i always tweet about

00:56:01.480 it so they can find me there perfect thanks for coming on and thank you for watching we will see

00:56:05.460 you very soon with another uh brilliant episode uh or a live stream and all of them go out at 7

00:56:11.280 p.m uk time six days a week so we'll see you soon guys bye

00:56:24.600 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - September 23, 2020

＂Masculinity Isn't Toxic, Our View of Men Is＂ - Peter Lloyd

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