TRIGGERnometry - Matthew Syed on Cousin Marriage, Immigration and Diversity

00:00:00.500 I took a sabbatical to research cousin marriage.

00:00:03.820 Now this is something that is prevalent across the world, but we didn't do it.

00:00:07.420 We married each other.

00:00:09.140 We were the first Mongol nation.

00:00:10.680 We dissolved the tribes, and that created a national identity.

00:00:15.300 It correlates very profoundly, not just with nepotism and corruption,

00:00:19.900 but economic growth, GDP per capita around the world.

00:00:23.740 The prevalence of low-wage immigration is part of a wider phenomenon

00:00:28.680 in Western societies, of electorates, voters effectively,

00:00:33.460 who are unable to deal with reality.

00:00:35.520 The greatest discrimination happening in the Western civilization today,

00:00:39.440 by far, is a discrimination against the future.

00:00:42.860 We need to be far more robust as liberals.

00:00:58.680 Entering all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans,

00:01:02.840 and Sweet Caroline.

00:01:04.300 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega-hit is here.

00:01:08.360 The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:01:11.120 Now through June 7th, 2026, at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:01:15.320 Get tickets at murbush.com.

00:01:17.140 Matthew Seed, we've both been admirers of your column for many, many years,

00:01:23.000 so it's a pleasure to have you on the show.

00:01:24.420 Thanks for coming on.

00:01:25.060 Well, thanks for having me.

00:01:26.100 I'm not sure if I detected the merest hint of irony

00:01:29.260 when you described yourself as a fan of the column,

00:01:30.980 but that might mean being too modest.

00:01:32.800 Maybe you really mean this.

00:01:33.800 You really are very British,

00:01:35.000 and whenever you're given a compliment,

00:01:36.740 you immediately get embarrassed.

00:01:37.880 That's too much.

00:01:39.520 It's too much.

00:01:40.540 Thank you.

00:01:41.500 Look, you are one of the voices in British commentary

00:01:44.520 that I think is prepared to be honest about difficult things

00:01:47.540 while not being captured by the desire to say difficult things all the time.

00:01:53.160 And it's a very fine line to tread.

00:01:54.560 A lot of people get addicted to the sort of outrage commentary

00:01:58.220 and get run away with that,

00:02:00.740 and other people shy away from difficult truths,

00:02:02.780 and you don't do either, which we both really admire.

00:02:04.900 So for those of our viewers, rather, who don't know who you are,

00:02:09.720 you don't do that many interviews, you're mostly right.

00:02:12.100 Who are you, and how are you here?

00:02:14.220 Well, it's a good question.

00:02:15.120 It could take a while to answer it properly,

00:02:17.320 but I'm half Pakistani, half Welsh.

00:02:20.980 My father was born in India, moved to Pakistan after petition,

00:02:26.260 came to England to study law in the 1960s.

00:02:30.500 He was a Shia Muslim,

00:02:31.900 but he had a very unusual and almost unique experience.

00:02:37.220 He was in a bedsit in south-east London, student bedsit,

00:02:41.960 and he had a vision of Jesus Christ.

00:02:45.600 And highly unusually, his life turned on a sixpence,

00:02:49.220 and from a Shia Muslim background,

00:02:51.440 he became a born-again evangelical Christian.

00:02:54.860 So he started going to church in Bromley, in Kent,

00:02:58.620 and he met my mum, who's a born-again Christian,

00:03:02.940 part of the kind of Welsh evangelical tradition.

00:03:07.020 She grew up in a Welsh farming community,

00:03:09.240 came to London with her parents,

00:03:10.880 went to this church in Bromley, fell in love with my dad.

00:03:14.060 Both families were massively against the marriage,

00:03:17.760 the family back in Pakistan, as you can imagine.

00:03:20.880 And what my mum used to tell us going up,

00:03:23.380 they said, don't do it, because you can't do it to your kids,

00:03:25.840 they'll be mixed race.

00:03:27.380 Fortunately for me and my siblings,

00:03:29.140 they rejected this advice,

00:03:30.480 had three mixed-race children,

00:03:32.800 were married until my father,

00:03:34.400 great man, fantastic person, passed away in 2021.

00:03:37.560 He was a born-again Christian all the way through his life.

00:03:39.800 So I had quite an unusual upbringing.

00:03:42.420 As the only kind of brown-skinned boy

00:03:45.780 growing up in suburban Reading in the 70s and 80s,

00:03:49.420 quite a lot of racism.

00:03:51.560 But I also had the cultural influence of my father

00:03:55.080 and his background and my mother.

00:03:57.980 And I think that's given me kind of quite a useful set of experiences

00:04:01.880 to try and understand and interpret

00:04:03.580 what I think is one of the most interesting,

00:04:06.280 if I may say so, periods in modern human history.

00:04:09.980 I think this is one of the reasons why podcasts like yours are so popular.

00:04:13.100 My mum's a big admirer.

00:04:15.420 Well, I said, I've been invited on this,

00:04:17.180 but she went, do it, do it.

00:04:18.560 And then with instructions coming through on WhatsApp.

00:04:21.280 So I'm really looking forward to the chat.

00:04:22.840 I admire very much what you do.

00:04:24.880 And as I said beforehand,

00:04:26.300 I might challenge a couple of your views too.

00:04:28.060 Please do.

00:04:28.740 We are very big in the evangelical community,

00:04:30.880 as you can imagine.

00:04:32.140 I should say I'm an atheist.

00:04:33.460 So I grew up as a born-again Christian.

00:04:35.740 I went to church all the way through my youth.

00:04:38.760 And then I started getting sceptical,

00:04:40.460 I think, in my early teens.

00:04:42.420 I probably had doubts even before that.

00:04:44.220 And then I did something which evangelicals think is awful.

00:04:47.540 I was a backslider.

00:04:49.240 And I became an atheist.

00:04:50.920 And now I'm an atheist.

00:04:52.280 And my mum did actually too.

00:04:53.580 My father was born again all the way through.

00:04:55.380 Well, this is the interesting thing,

00:04:56.980 because you say evangelicals look down on people who leave the faith.

00:05:00.060 But from what I know, so do Shia Muslims quite a lot.

00:05:03.560 And your dad's apostasy and conversion to the opposite, frankly,

00:05:07.620 that must have been quite difficult.

00:05:09.660 That was massive.

00:05:10.280 So he was effectively an outcast.

00:05:13.620 And there is a strand of Islamic thinking

00:05:15.920 that apostasy is punishable on earth by death.

00:05:19.140 You don't wait until...

00:05:21.080 You don't wait until...

00:05:22.000 So I mean, I hope my father...

00:05:23.920 Well, he's gone now.

00:05:25.380 I don't think my mum would mind.

00:05:26.820 But there was one very fundamentalist member of the extended family

00:05:31.180 who married one of my father's nieces.

00:05:35.360 And my father was a strong Christian.

00:05:36.720 And he never would step back from articulating his faith.

00:05:41.060 You know, an evangelical, you try and describe your faith.

00:05:45.380 You try and convert through your faith.

00:05:47.780 But this person came to, when we were living in London,

00:05:51.000 and I noticed there was a plaque on our wall that said,

00:05:55.000 Christ is the head of this house.

00:05:56.960 The unseen listener at every conversation, and so on and so forth.

00:06:00.160 Quite a famous Christian phrase.

00:06:01.880 And it disappeared.

00:06:04.100 I said, Dad, where's...

00:06:05.340 He said, Dad, where's the plaque?

00:06:07.620 He said, oh, this person, Shabbat, Shabbat's coming.

00:06:10.300 I don't want to get into a big debate and argument about it.

00:06:13.680 So he actually withdrew it for that little period.

00:06:16.920 But on the family, he was an outcast for a period

00:06:20.120 from his dearly beloved family in Pakistan.

00:06:24.540 But in the end, they accepted him.

00:06:27.080 They were relatively moderate Muslims.

00:06:29.060 You know, it's really interesting the way that you talk about that,

00:06:34.300 because we're now having a broader conversation about Islam in this country,

00:06:39.720 and it's particularly the extreme end of that religion.

00:06:43.440 As someone who's grown up seeing your father's experience,

00:06:47.340 but also seeing your own experience as well with, you know,

00:06:50.960 let's, shall we say, you know, quite staunch religious views,

00:06:53.920 what are your opinions and views on it?

00:06:56.060 Well, it's going to be a nuanced answer, really.

00:07:00.220 I think there's unquestionable...

00:07:01.900 I'm sorry, I apologise, I apologise.

00:07:03.500 They're all horrible.

00:07:04.800 No, I think...

00:07:07.440 I worry about two different things.

00:07:09.720 I certainly think that statistically,

00:07:13.680 there's a worrying number of Muslims

00:07:16.160 who tend towards a more extreme interpretation of the Koran

00:07:21.120 than I'm comfortable with.

00:07:22.220 And I think you see that having cultural effects

00:07:25.060 that I think are quite damaging.

00:07:26.840 So think about...

00:07:28.020 I don't know if you've seen the musical The Book of Mormon.

00:07:30.280 Yes, brilliant.

00:07:31.080 It's a wonderful piece of religious satire.

00:07:34.040 And I think I'm right in saying

00:07:35.580 that the Mormons have not threatened

00:07:37.540 the people who created

00:07:39.340 that attempt to ridicule

00:07:42.040 what is very precious to them.

00:07:43.780 They haven't...

00:07:44.220 It's not just that.

00:07:45.200 They've also...

00:07:46.120 There've been instances where they've been outside

00:07:48.160 and they've been handing out leaflets

00:07:50.240 to the theatre-goers saying,

00:07:52.320 oh, you went and I hope you enjoyed it.

00:07:54.320 By the way, if you're interested in being a Mormon,

00:07:56.220 here's a leaflet.

00:07:56.880 Exactly.

00:07:57.340 And I think I'm even right in saying

00:07:58.860 that they took out an ad in the programme

00:08:01.120 saying, look, if you think this is a bit unfair,

00:08:03.600 do pop a lot to our church

00:08:05.560 and we'll tell you what Mormonism is really like.

00:08:07.620 In other words,

00:08:08.280 they felt that the people who created that show

00:08:11.300 had a right to do so

00:08:12.640 and that they had a right

00:08:14.760 to try and persuade people

00:08:16.260 to disagree with what was being said in that show.

00:08:18.880 That's a perfectly reasonable way

00:08:21.220 to approach controversial issues

00:08:23.080 in a liberal society.

00:08:25.460 I don't think that kind of a musical

00:08:27.660 could be made about Islam.

00:08:30.280 I think people would be scared

00:08:31.740 of the ramifications.

00:08:33.600 Think about what it is,

00:08:34.420 Salman Rushdie and others.

00:08:36.140 Charlie Hebdo.

00:08:37.060 Charlie Hebdo.

00:08:37.700 I mean, there's dozens and dozens of examples.

00:08:40.020 In other words,

00:08:40.600 that statistical base

00:08:43.400 of fundamentalist Muslims

00:08:45.060 who feel that they can hound and attack people

00:08:47.720 or put a fatwa on them

00:08:49.680 because they disagree with the truth of Islam,

00:08:53.400 that I think has had something of a chilling effect

00:08:55.600 on free speech

00:08:56.560 and I worry about that a great deal.

00:08:58.440 But on the other hand,

00:08:59.740 I think there are many moderate Muslims

00:09:01.360 who are perfectly willing to listen to criticism

00:09:04.140 and not to attack people as a consequence of it.

00:09:06.480 I met some of them in Southport last week,

00:09:08.980 some people who are in my family of that ilk.

00:09:12.140 And I worry a lot about this idea.

00:09:14.940 Tommy Robinson would be an example of somebody

00:09:16.720 who has made public comments of this kind

00:09:18.720 that all Muslims are suspect.

00:09:20.780 That, it seems to me,

00:09:22.020 is ad hominem and unfair.

00:09:23.920 It's tarnishing people

00:09:24.940 according to a singular label

00:09:26.420 and not taking into account

00:09:28.180 the variety of opinions within that label.

00:09:30.740 Yeah, it's a reductive way to approach

00:09:33.660 which is actually a quite difficult subject.

00:09:36.600 But you said a few words

00:09:38.140 that I found very interesting.

00:09:39.320 You said the truth about Islam.

00:09:41.200 What do you mean by that, Matthew?

00:09:43.340 You mean what is religious truth?

00:09:44.860 Yeah.

00:09:45.340 Well, religious truth is an interesting concept

00:09:47.760 because there are many different interpretations

00:09:50.200 of the Koran

00:09:51.120 as there are many different interpretations

00:09:52.900 of the Bible.

00:09:54.260 I know this from my Christian upbringing

00:09:55.980 because the church that I went to

00:09:57.500 split six times

00:09:59.320 on quite arcane pieces of theology.

00:10:02.540 Should women be able to lead services?

00:10:04.580 Some thought that this was unbiblical.

00:10:06.320 Others thought that it was absolutely okay.

00:10:08.480 What was the attitude towards homosexuality?

00:10:10.960 There was even a debate

00:10:11.960 about whether women should be able to wear,

00:10:14.080 should, ought to wear,

00:10:15.240 head coverings in church.

00:10:17.020 So I see that,

00:10:18.460 I mean, there are many different types of Christianity

00:10:21.360 and there are many different types of Islam.

00:10:24.060 But what is the truth?

00:10:24.980 Well, if you ask a fundamentalist Christian,

00:10:28.140 they will say they have the truth

00:10:29.740 as a consequence of divine revelation.

00:10:32.900 And therefore there is no evidence

00:10:34.340 that could persuade them of the alternative.

00:10:36.960 Now that it seems to me is deeply problematic

00:10:39.280 if they take that as justification

00:10:42.140 for imposing their views on other people.

00:10:45.900 It was very interesting

00:10:47.240 when Tony Blair was in power

00:10:49.760 that he kept saying that certain Muslims

00:10:51.500 have a false interpretation of the Koran.

00:10:53.680 What is the criterion of falsity?

00:10:57.380 In science, I'm simplifying a little.

00:11:00.280 I think science is more complicated than this.

00:11:02.340 But the general idea is you perform an experiment.

00:11:05.020 And this provides the adjudication

00:11:06.820 between two alternative theories.

00:11:09.060 So you might remember in the mid-20s,

00:11:10.600 a bit earlier,

00:11:12.060 Eddington went to the equator

00:11:14.540 to check who was right between Newton and Einstein

00:11:17.560 about whether or not light was bent

00:11:20.780 or curved by gravity.

00:11:22.960 And he performed an experiment

00:11:24.440 and it turned out that Einstein was right.

00:11:27.380 And a very wonderful philosopher called Karl Popper,

00:11:29.940 who's written wonderfully about open societies,

00:11:32.060 by the way, fantastic book,

00:11:33.220 The Open Society and Its Enemies,

00:11:35.120 noticed that most scientists sided with Einstein

00:11:37.460 off the basis of what the evidence said.

00:11:40.360 But there is no evidence

00:11:42.120 that will persuade fundamentalists

00:11:44.040 that what they think is untrue.

00:11:46.980 And so there's no real opportunity

00:11:48.180 for discord and debate.

00:11:49.640 And I find it particularly irritating

00:11:51.300 when someone like Tony Blair,

00:11:52.580 who doesn't believe in any of the variants of Islam,

00:11:55.140 to be adjudicated between

00:11:56.280 which is not a true interpretation

00:11:59.000 of a book that he doesn't believe in anyway.

00:12:01.040 But this is what...

00:12:02.080 Do you see the point I'm making?

00:12:03.000 No, I see exactly the point you're making.

00:12:04.440 But I think what I was about to say is

00:12:06.220 it's political linguistic manipulation

00:12:10.120 to fail to acknowledge what you acknowledged,

00:12:14.460 which is there is a subset of the Muslim population

00:12:17.480 that, as you said, feels very strongly about this

00:12:21.260 and is willing to use violence

00:12:22.780 to suppress other people's right to express themselves.

00:12:25.620 And so if you're a politician in the West,

00:12:27.480 you have to say that those people

00:12:29.780 have a false interpretation of Islam

00:12:31.760 in order to address the other caveat

00:12:33.960 that you made,

00:12:34.980 which is that most Muslims are moderate and reasonable

00:12:37.720 and don't feel that way.

00:12:39.600 But what that has done, I would say,

00:12:43.560 is it's prevented us having a discussion,

00:12:46.100 a genuine discussion,

00:12:47.580 which is how do we maintain open societies

00:12:50.400 in which we have a subset of the population

00:12:53.320 that is perfectly happy to kill people

00:12:55.980 who they disagree with?

00:12:58.040 Well, I think there's two things I'd say.

00:12:59.980 One, we need to be far more robust

00:13:03.100 as liberals in defending free speech

00:13:06.980 and standing up in a sinuous way

00:13:10.440 against its enemies.

00:13:12.200 I can't remember the quote of Popper,

00:13:14.800 but he has a lovely one about how

00:13:16.720 tolerance taken too far

00:13:18.440 allows the intolerant to win

00:13:20.280 and that kills all tolerance.

00:13:22.660 That's, I think, a mistake we've moved into.

00:13:24.440 But I think it's also worth understanding

00:13:26.780 the structure of the fundamentalism

00:13:32.320 in Western societies.

00:13:34.780 And I know this might seem like a bit of a segue,

00:13:38.860 but it's often held together by a marriage custom,

00:13:43.080 first cousin marriage.

00:13:44.220 So I know a bit about this

00:13:49.460 because I, my father, half-jokingly,

00:13:52.580 but not completely,

00:13:53.640 when we went to Pakistan the first time,

00:13:55.160 said, oh, you might be able to meet your future wife,

00:13:58.080 one of your cousins.

00:13:59.100 I was like, eh?

00:14:00.260 Because arranged marriage is a big custom.

00:14:02.900 Yes.

00:14:03.280 And you marry with...

00:14:05.280 Now, why is first cousin marriage so prevalent

00:14:08.400 around much of the world, by the way,

00:14:10.900 including in this country

00:14:12.080 until about 1,500 years ago?

00:14:14.900 The reason is...

00:14:15.700 It's enough about the royal family.

00:14:16.820 Right.

00:14:17.240 And it is still among certain elites.

00:14:19.080 You're right about that.

00:14:19.740 Yeah.

00:14:20.580 And the reason is,

00:14:22.580 if you think about tribes and clans

00:14:26.920 and kindreds and other groups

00:14:30.100 which dominated the early evolution of our species,

00:14:33.280 for many thousands of years,

00:14:35.140 because you need to cooperate

00:14:36.720 in order to be successful

00:14:38.620 in intergroup competition.

00:14:40.220 If you're an agriculturalist

00:14:41.600 and you're cultivating land,

00:14:43.480 you need to be able to defend it.

00:14:44.740 Otherwise, what's the point

00:14:45.580 of putting all that work and energy in?

00:14:47.660 So communal defence requires

00:14:49.680 critical mass of people

00:14:51.620 to defend successfully.

00:14:52.920 So you start trying to scale up

00:14:54.380 from these nomadic hunter-gatherers.

00:14:56.640 And this happens after the agricultural revolution.

00:14:58.580 But you scale up based on kin, kinship.

00:15:01.340 This is quite a strong evolutionary mechanism

00:15:03.500 to hold groups together,

00:15:05.020 if that makes sense.

00:15:06.200 It does.

00:15:06.720 But how do you make sure

00:15:07.640 that you can hold it within the group

00:15:09.220 and a clear demarcation with outsiders?

00:15:12.040 Marry within the group.

00:15:13.800 Marry within the clan.

00:15:15.160 Within the kindred.

00:15:16.200 And that means marrying cousins.

00:15:18.160 Now, this is something

00:15:19.020 that is prevalent across the world

00:15:20.720 and, as I said,

00:15:21.820 was in this country.

00:15:23.000 So you might remember,

00:15:23.800 we were a tribal nation.

00:15:25.920 Absolutely.

00:15:26.220 You know, think of the Ithene

00:15:28.060 and the Angles

00:15:29.740 and the Saxons.

00:15:31.280 And then the Vikings came.

00:15:32.860 There were many indigenous Britannic tribes.

00:15:35.340 It wasn't really a nation state.

00:15:37.180 But then there was a ban

00:15:38.500 on cousin marriage.

00:15:39.900 Somebody called Augustine of Canterbury

00:15:42.120 came to Anglo-Saxon Kent

00:15:43.680 in the 5th century AD.

00:15:46.140 And he converted Ethelbert

00:15:48.180 to Christianity.

00:15:49.960 And at that time,

00:15:50.780 there was a ban on cousin marriage

00:15:52.040 from the Catholic Church.

00:15:53.260 And it extended up to six cousins

00:15:55.320 by the 10th century.

00:15:56.640 This was a fundamental moment

00:15:58.180 in human history.

00:15:59.440 Because it effectively forced people

00:16:01.220 to marry outside the tribe.

00:16:03.880 Where did the tribes go

00:16:04.880 in this country?

00:16:05.980 They didn't duke it out.

00:16:07.000 They didn't fight it out.

00:16:08.000 There wasn't a genocide.

00:16:09.440 As there is in many other parts

00:16:10.740 of the world

00:16:11.160 where you have a nation state,

00:16:12.960 there has been some kind

00:16:13.780 of ethnic cleansing.

00:16:15.240 Think of the Han dominance

00:16:16.360 in China

00:16:17.000 after the Qin unification,

00:16:19.060 the warring states period.

00:16:20.220 They duked it out.

00:16:21.500 But we didn't do it.

00:16:22.280 We married each other.

00:16:24.100 We were the first Mongol nation.

00:16:25.620 We dissolved the tribes.

00:16:27.740 And that created

00:16:28.520 a national identity.

00:16:30.800 Common weights and measures,

00:16:32.280 an emergent rule of law.

00:16:34.200 It created Western psychology.

00:16:36.520 We're more individualistic.

00:16:38.360 We have a slightly different

00:16:39.640 moral psychology.

00:16:40.540 This is measurable.

00:16:41.940 We're less nepotistic.

00:16:44.140 Nepotism is absolutely fundamental

00:16:45.980 to a tribal society.

00:16:47.300 You give a job to somebody

00:16:48.180 in your tribe.

00:16:48.760 Absolutely you do.

00:16:49.720 You're not going to give it

00:16:50.380 to an outsider.

00:16:51.020 Corruption is endemic

00:16:53.160 in tribal societies.

00:16:54.200 Why?

00:16:54.400 Because you extort a bung

00:16:55.420 from a stranger

00:16:56.080 to share it with your faction.

00:16:58.000 If you don't do it,

00:16:58.780 that's morally unacceptable.

00:17:00.880 But can you see how

00:17:01.680 that plays havoc

00:17:02.760 with democratic nation states?

00:17:04.800 Because what happens,

00:17:06.120 all the people in the tribe

00:17:07.460 vote for their person.

00:17:08.800 They get hands on power.

00:17:10.000 They loot the coffers

00:17:11.280 and share it with their people.

00:17:13.960 And rule of law doesn't work.

00:17:15.260 The judge will side

00:17:16.080 with whoever,

00:17:17.040 not on the basis

00:17:18.020 of the facts,

00:17:19.380 but whether that person

00:17:20.340 is in my faction.

00:17:22.760 Now that bound

00:17:23.380 was fundamental.

00:17:24.740 But,

00:17:25.540 so it disappeared

00:17:26.540 from these islands

00:17:28.660 in the 5th century.

00:17:30.840 It dissolved slowly

00:17:31.680 over the course

00:17:32.240 of the later Middle Ages.

00:17:34.700 But it came back

00:17:36.060 when Henry VIII

00:17:37.120 wanted to marry a cousin.

00:17:40.500 And that's not really

00:17:41.720 a big problem

00:17:42.260 because it had effectively

00:17:43.100 been taken out of society.

00:17:45.940 But now we have had,

00:17:47.080 in the era

00:17:47.620 of mass uncontrolled immigration,

00:17:50.100 many people coming

00:17:51.240 from parts of the world

00:17:52.060 where first cousin marriage

00:17:53.340 is common and prevalent.

00:17:54.860 And they're still

00:17:55.460 marrying cousins

00:17:56.560 in communities

00:17:57.940 that are cut off

00:17:58.760 from the wider

00:17:59.620 British society.

00:18:02.120 Cousin marriage

00:18:02.840 is a way of sequestering

00:18:04.800 communities

00:18:05.540 from the wider...

00:18:06.440 My father came in

00:18:07.480 and married

00:18:07.980 a Welsh-English woman.

00:18:10.640 It was a bridge

00:18:12.320 into a different life.

00:18:15.200 And that, I think,

00:18:15.920 is one of our problems.

00:18:16.900 I think cousin marriage

00:18:17.800 has been a disaster

00:18:18.800 for these communities,

00:18:20.700 for the patriots

00:18:21.620 that control it,

00:18:22.300 the oppression of women.

00:18:23.760 So it's a long...

00:18:24.360 Forgive me for a long answer,

00:18:26.060 but I think that

00:18:26.680 cousin would help people

00:18:27.680 to build bridges

00:18:28.620 into the wider society

00:18:29.520 and understand that

00:18:30.620 maybe you can be a Muslim

00:18:31.840 and somebody who believes

00:18:33.620 in liberal values

00:18:34.300 of the kind that has led

00:18:35.180 to great prosperity here.

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00:19:49.140 It's also as well,

00:19:51.380 the genetic element of it.

00:19:52.820 Yes.

00:19:53.360 Genetically,

00:19:53.540 it's a disaster.

00:19:54.600 That's right.

00:19:54.960 I used to teach

00:19:56.100 in Newham

00:19:57.240 and you could see

00:19:59.000 where people

00:20:00.600 who were cousins

00:20:01.780 who had children,

00:20:03.560 the outcomes

00:20:04.220 a lot of the time

00:20:05.180 were suboptimal

00:20:06.600 to put it mildly.

00:20:07.660 Yeah, you're right.

00:20:08.340 When you look at disabilities,

00:20:09.340 when you look at things

00:20:10.020 like low IQ,

00:20:11.240 low cognitive ability,

00:20:13.240 it wasn't good.

00:20:14.960 That's right.

00:20:15.580 That's absolutely right.

00:20:16.380 In fact,

00:20:16.620 it's interesting.

00:20:17.280 I gave that whole answer

00:20:18.280 about cousin marriage

00:20:19.040 without mentioning

00:20:19.780 the recessive genetic disorders.

00:20:22.640 It's an interesting thing,

00:20:24.020 this,

00:20:24.260 in the context

00:20:24.860 of this podcast

00:20:25.740 because I took a sabbatical

00:20:28.440 to research cousin marriage.

00:20:30.080 I think it's a really big deal.

00:20:31.700 It correlates very profoundly,

00:20:34.360 not just with nepotism

00:20:35.280 and corruption,

00:20:36.040 but strength of institutions,

00:20:38.080 economic growth,

00:20:38.920 GDP per capita

00:20:39.740 around the world.

00:20:41.180 What a big deal.

00:20:41.940 I never had heard this

00:20:43.400 before I started reading

00:20:44.400 the really brilliant

00:20:45.360 anthropological work

00:20:47.080 that has been done

00:20:47.720 in the last 10 or 15 years.

00:20:50.300 So I thought,

00:20:50.960 why not write a book on this?

00:20:52.880 Took a sabbatical

00:20:53.880 from the Sunday Times

00:20:54.880 and the Times

00:20:55.500 and I called researchers

00:20:57.840 to talk more

00:20:59.000 about what I think

00:21:00.040 is a big issue,

00:21:01.140 much in the public interest.

00:21:03.540 And one of the things

00:21:04.540 that struck me

00:21:05.180 is this prevalence

00:21:06.340 of congenital disorders

00:21:09.000 that you described.

00:21:10.580 So I phoned geneticists,

00:21:13.420 but because I'd written

00:21:14.400 a column in the Sunday Times

00:21:15.580 coming out against

00:21:16.880 cousin marriage,

00:21:17.600 even though I think

00:21:18.140 it's much to the benefit

00:21:19.080 of the communities themselves

00:21:20.260 and the wider country,

00:21:21.880 isn't this a criticism

00:21:23.620 of a cultural tradition?

00:21:25.700 Won't that be thought of

00:21:28.320 as racist to question

00:21:29.480 cousin marriage?

00:21:30.300 I didn't get any calls back.

00:21:32.460 I called and called and called.

00:21:34.880 Later, I found evidence

00:21:36.880 that the level of incest,

00:21:40.260 this could be father,

00:21:42.280 daughter, siblings,

00:21:43.720 you can't,

00:21:44.260 but from the UK Biobank,

00:21:45.780 was very high

00:21:46.660 in the British Pakistani community.

00:21:47.880 That worried me a lot.

00:21:49.360 This isn't cousin marriage.

00:21:50.300 This is illegal today, incest.

00:21:55.520 But the person

00:21:56.520 who had tweeted out

00:21:57.880 that incest was very high

00:21:59.560 on the basis of the Biobank,

00:22:01.180 very rapidly deleted the tweet.

00:22:03.540 And that claim

00:22:04.480 was retracted from the paper

00:22:06.040 that this person

00:22:08.000 was a co-author on.

00:22:09.600 So I thought,

00:22:09.980 this is curious.

00:22:10.500 Have they, as it were,

00:22:11.900 withdrawn something,

00:22:13.760 again, in the public interest?

00:22:14.720 We need to know that, right?

00:22:16.260 Very important for safeguarding,

00:22:17.680 social services,

00:22:18.560 to know if there's,

00:22:19.480 not two times

00:22:21.700 or five times

00:22:22.360 or ten times,

00:22:22.700 but 30 times higher.

00:22:24.800 This is an astonishing finding.

00:22:27.960 And this person

00:22:29.240 wasn't prepared

00:22:29.880 to go on the record.

00:22:32.020 I couldn't get anybody

00:22:33.180 to talk about it.

00:22:34.740 And ethics committees,

00:22:35.740 I think,

00:22:36.040 are just not willing

00:22:36.840 to talk about issues

00:22:39.720 that might negatively impact

00:22:42.480 on the perception

00:22:43.100 of certain communities.

00:22:44.720 I think that's a scandal, too.

00:22:46.840 I'm going to ask you

00:22:47.600 a question

00:22:47.920 that we all know

00:22:48.500 the answer to,

00:22:49.100 but I think it's worth asking

00:22:50.200 so that you express it.

00:22:51.580 Why is that?

00:22:52.860 Because they're afraid

00:22:53.760 of appearing racist.

00:22:56.240 And why are facts racist?

00:23:01.760 I think that's quite

00:23:02.680 a deep question.

00:23:03.960 I mean,

00:23:04.140 it depends how you define racism.

00:23:05.520 My own feeling

00:23:06.160 is that science

00:23:07.540 should look for truth

00:23:08.740 and then we as a society

00:23:10.520 benefit from hearing the truth

00:23:12.200 because it enables us

00:23:13.040 to construct societies

00:23:14.320 in a way that can be

00:23:15.260 as good as possible

00:23:16.720 for all of us.

00:23:18.420 And that it is therefore

00:23:19.900 not racist

00:23:20.860 to say anything

00:23:22.380 that is factual.

00:23:23.160 I think of racism

00:23:24.320 as unfairly

00:23:26.320 or arbitrarily

00:23:27.600 discriminating

00:23:28.500 against somebody

00:23:29.140 on the basis

00:23:29.700 of their race

00:23:30.580 rather than the qualities

00:23:32.040 that they have.

00:23:34.280 So I don't think it is.

00:23:35.240 But I think

00:23:35.700 if you were to ask me

00:23:36.580 what they would answer,

00:23:37.600 they would say

00:23:38.120 in a society

00:23:38.800 where people

00:23:39.620 of brown skin

00:23:40.920 have been unfairly

00:23:41.680 treated for a long time,

00:23:42.940 if you say

00:23:43.620 that there's something

00:23:44.280 in that community

00:23:45.100 that isn't

00:23:46.580 absolutely perfect,

00:23:47.700 it may give latitude

00:23:49.260 for true racists

00:23:51.120 to be nasty to them.

00:23:51.880 But that's true.

00:23:52.660 We all know

00:23:53.140 that's true.

00:23:54.140 But the problem

00:23:54.760 I have with that argument

00:23:55.940 is so that means

00:23:57.460 that a Pakistani girl

00:23:58.900 has to get raped

00:23:59.900 by her father?

00:24:00.740 That's right.

00:24:01.400 Because we're afraid?

00:24:02.860 It's awful.

00:24:03.760 It's absolutely awful.

00:24:04.580 Plato wrote about

00:24:05.620 something called

00:24:06.260 the noble lie

00:24:07.660 where it's absolutely okay

00:24:10.120 to be deceptive.

00:24:12.760 And I, like you,

00:24:14.620 think that the truth

00:24:15.500 sets us free.

00:24:18.140 That to the extent

00:24:19.080 that people are lying,

00:24:21.580 knowing to be lying,

00:24:23.220 it undermines faith

00:24:24.460 in what I think

00:24:25.300 is the most important

00:24:26.100 of our institutions,

00:24:27.240 which is science.

00:24:28.100 I think science

00:24:28.840 has been corrupted.

00:24:30.420 I say that as somebody

00:24:31.400 with great admiration

00:24:32.600 for science

00:24:33.300 and scientific method,

00:24:34.400 what it's done

00:24:34.820 for the world.

00:24:35.480 But I think

00:24:36.700 that this bias

00:24:37.640 within the institutions

00:24:38.900 that one could

00:24:40.700 analyse sociologically

00:24:41.940 has not just

00:24:43.460 obfuscated

00:24:44.520 the ability

00:24:45.460 of scientists

00:24:46.420 to openly express

00:24:47.860 truth that actually

00:24:48.680 would liberate

00:24:49.500 people often

00:24:50.980 in these communities.

00:24:51.840 I mean,

00:24:52.000 one of the things

00:24:52.520 that annoys me

00:24:53.300 the most is

00:24:54.080 the people,

00:24:55.640 you might have noticed

00:24:56.520 when there was

00:24:57.700 a proposal

00:24:58.260 quite recently

00:24:59.000 from a Conservative MP

00:25:00.340 to ban cousin marriage,

00:25:02.880 one of the people

00:25:03.560 who spoke against it

00:25:04.380 was one of the five

00:25:05.160 independent so-called

00:25:06.380 Gaza MPs

00:25:07.380 say, no,

00:25:07.700 this is not fair

00:25:08.320 to the community.

00:25:09.580 Who do you think

00:25:10.200 that person is talking

00:25:11.480 on behalf of?

00:25:12.240 The patriarchs

00:25:13.180 who control these clans

00:25:15.040 and often oppress

00:25:16.320 the women,

00:25:16.960 tell them who they will marry.

00:25:18.880 In other words,

00:25:19.640 benefiting that person

00:25:20.860 at the expense

00:25:21.860 of the wider

00:25:22.860 clan community.

00:25:25.460 And I agree with you.

00:25:26.280 I think truth

00:25:27.000 is something

00:25:28.560 that we've lost sight

00:25:30.080 of its overwhelming

00:25:33.380 beauty and power.

00:25:35.560 Do you think

00:25:36.080 we've just,

00:25:37.160 it's a beautiful thing

00:25:38.280 that you said

00:25:38.820 and I'm half agreeing

00:25:39.840 with you.

00:25:40.500 The other half of me

00:25:41.360 is going,

00:25:42.280 that's really lovely

00:25:42.960 what you said,

00:25:43.540 but aren't we just

00:25:44.120 really talking about

00:25:44.940 cowardice, Matthew?

00:25:46.440 Cowardice.

00:25:47.020 Yeah, moral cowardice.

00:25:48.460 Yeah, I think that's right.

00:25:49.480 I think that's right.

00:25:50.460 It's interesting though,

00:25:51.420 isn't it,

00:25:51.740 that this tyranny

00:25:53.960 of the minority.

00:25:55.480 It is one of the most

00:25:56.320 interesting phenomena

00:25:57.520 over the course of,

00:25:58.660 I guess,

00:25:58.940 the second half of my life,

00:26:00.160 how quite small groups

00:26:01.240 of activists

00:26:01.980 have been willing

00:26:04.300 to escalate

00:26:05.160 and cancel

00:26:06.840 and make the consequences

00:26:09.220 of saying something

00:26:10.320 that went against

00:26:11.940 their ultra-progressive ideology

00:26:13.800 so stark

00:26:14.800 that it wasn't just academics

00:26:16.800 who started to buckle,

00:26:18.880 it was corporations

00:26:20.100 as well.

00:26:22.160 And I think that dynamic

00:26:23.400 of that willingness

00:26:24.640 to escalate

00:26:25.880 and escalate far,

00:26:27.000 look at the small number

00:26:28.000 of Islamic fundamentalists

00:26:29.300 who have chilled free speech

00:26:30.500 in this country.

00:26:31.820 Something that has worried me

00:26:33.280 about liberals,

00:26:34.780 weak,

00:26:35.860 cowardly,

00:26:37.560 in a way,

00:26:39.380 betrayers

00:26:40.080 of the true liberal tradition.

00:26:43.060 I couldn't agree

00:26:43.700 with you more.

00:26:44.360 I mean,

00:26:44.560 it was only in November

00:26:45.980 as part of Islamophobia

00:26:47.420 Awareness Month

00:26:48.320 that I think his name is,

00:26:49.340 yeah,

00:26:49.500 his name is Tahir Ali,

00:26:50.760 stood up

00:26:51.220 an MP

00:26:52.620 in this country

00:26:53.540 and was saying

00:26:55.100 that we need

00:26:55.600 blasphemy laws

00:26:56.540 and Keir Starmer

00:26:58.560 seemed mildly receptive

00:27:00.080 if not positive to it

00:27:01.760 which I find

00:27:02.860 absolutely horrifying.

00:27:04.640 Yeah,

00:27:04.780 that is horrifying.

00:27:06.020 And I think the context,

00:27:07.040 I think it's worth saying

00:27:08.040 the context here

00:27:08.840 for people

00:27:09.620 because there will be

00:27:10.400 some people listening

00:27:11.160 who are on the progressive left,

00:27:12.700 I guess.

00:27:13.520 Do you do any data on that?

00:27:15.060 It's probably difficult

00:27:15.960 to establish.

00:27:16.980 There are some people,

00:27:18.100 there's quite a few people

00:27:19.080 on the left

00:27:19.500 who listen to us

00:27:20.140 and it's because

00:27:20.800 we really,

00:27:22.160 we are,

00:27:22.720 like,

00:27:23.240 you talk about

00:27:23.900 the weakness of liberals.

00:27:25.120 We are liberals

00:27:25.740 saying,

00:27:26.260 guys,

00:27:26.500 what the hell,

00:27:27.160 why are we doing this?

00:27:28.400 Yeah,

00:27:28.620 yeah,

00:27:28.840 okay,

00:27:29.200 so I'm with you.

00:27:29.740 But it's worth saying,

00:27:30.500 I don't know if you feel this way

00:27:31.820 as I do,

00:27:32.780 but because my father

00:27:34.720 was such a big influence

00:27:37.060 and he told me

00:27:37.700 what it was like

00:27:38.260 to grow up

00:27:38.740 in different,

00:27:39.420 you know,

00:27:39.700 different part of the world

00:27:40.700 and he was very aware

00:27:42.360 of what was happening

00:27:43.080 in different parts

00:27:43.740 of the world,

00:27:44.700 people think,

00:27:46.460 I know a lot of

00:27:47.100 ultra-progressives

00:27:47.820 think of the West

00:27:49.300 as a terribly racist hell.

00:27:52.560 That it's really,

00:27:53.820 it's a really awful place

00:27:55.220 where discrimination exists

00:27:56.660 and your colour

00:27:57.600 is determining your life.

00:27:58.600 Now,

00:27:58.800 I should say,

00:27:59.340 it'll be interesting to see,

00:28:00.280 I do think,

00:28:01.560 when I was growing up,

00:28:02.640 so I mentioned

00:28:03.560 that I'm suburban ready

00:28:04.600 and I was the only

00:28:08.000 mixed-race boy

00:28:08.780 in my school

00:28:09.540 and I definitely

00:28:10.840 experienced race

00:28:12.300 and no doubt about it,

00:28:13.140 it was difficult.

00:28:13.940 It was difficult.

00:28:14.700 My father struggled

00:28:15.680 to get promoted

00:28:16.280 in the civil service.

00:28:18.140 Fantastic,

00:28:18.680 but hard-working.

00:28:19.900 That's the one thing,

00:28:20.880 by the way,

00:28:21.220 associated with him

00:28:21.940 more than anything else

00:28:22.680 is his work ending.

00:28:23.820 I've never lost that.

00:28:25.520 You know,

00:28:25.720 that influence on me

00:28:26.560 was so profound.

00:28:28.140 I find it difficult

00:28:28.600 to take holidays,

00:28:29.840 even now.

00:28:31.360 So hard work,

00:28:32.260 but couldn't get promoted.

00:28:33.980 And I remember

00:28:34.620 talking to him

00:28:35.220 and saying,

00:28:35.620 Dad,

00:28:36.140 you know,

00:28:36.300 what's going on?

00:28:36.980 Why?

00:28:37.860 I could see it was

00:28:38.760 affecting him.

00:28:39.440 And, you know,

00:28:40.180 he would go to work

00:28:42.340 and people

00:28:43.620 would be having

00:28:43.960 a chat on the corridor

00:28:44.860 and he would go

00:28:45.380 to have a conversation

00:28:46.220 with them

00:28:46.720 and it would just

00:28:47.540 disperse.

00:28:48.940 He'd go to work

00:28:49.500 the next day

00:28:50.040 and they'd have gone

00:28:50.580 for a dinner

00:28:51.220 or a drink

00:28:51.780 and he wouldn't

00:28:52.180 have been invited.

00:28:53.960 And at the beginning

00:28:54.440 he thought,

00:28:54.760 that's obviously racism,

00:28:55.820 but none of them

00:28:56.340 actually used the P word.

00:28:58.060 So it wasn't 100% sure.

00:28:59.900 Is it me?

00:29:01.580 Is there something

00:29:02.080 wrong with me?

00:29:03.720 And there's a concept

00:29:04.940 in psychology,

00:29:05.660 it's an interesting one

00:29:06.260 called attritional ambiguity.

00:29:07.940 The attrition you feel.

00:29:09.600 If they'd used the P word,

00:29:10.860 it would have been easier.

00:29:12.100 They're racist,

00:29:12.640 but he started

00:29:13.320 to question himself

00:29:14.120 and it had a real impact

00:29:15.500 on his psychology.

00:29:16.740 Interestingly,

00:29:17.200 I met some of the people

00:29:17.860 he worked with

00:29:18.420 a few years later

00:29:19.200 and they were unaware

00:29:20.620 that they had,

00:29:21.720 I think it just happened

00:29:22.660 almost unconsciously.

00:29:24.440 I thought,

00:29:24.740 you know,

00:29:24.940 I'm not sure if that person,

00:29:26.280 you know,

00:29:26.440 quite a lot darker

00:29:27.540 than me,

00:29:27.840 my father,

00:29:28.360 you know,

00:29:28.520 wouldn't want to be involved

00:29:29.340 and I'll come for a drink

00:29:30.060 with us,

00:29:30.400 but it was really horrible

00:29:31.520 for him.

00:29:31.940 And for me at school,

00:29:33.680 he actually left

00:29:34.380 the civil service

00:29:35.040 in the end,

00:29:35.480 worked and got

00:29:36.080 a postgraduate degree

00:29:38.400 and ended up

00:29:39.420 as a professor

00:29:40.260 at a university.

00:29:41.300 So it worked out

00:29:42.360 in the end,

00:29:42.780 but it was very tough

00:29:43.520 for him.

00:29:44.040 I think it's worth

00:29:44.560 acknowledging that

00:29:45.200 racism isn't nice

00:29:46.640 and it's not fair.

00:29:48.920 Wasn't being judged

00:29:49.640 on his ability.

00:29:50.820 And so I went to school,

00:29:52.020 got the P word a lot.

00:29:53.380 The first girl

00:29:54.100 I asked out,

00:29:55.960 can I say her name,

00:29:56.780 Yvonne?

00:29:57.760 She said,

00:29:58.380 pick on someone

00:29:58.880 your own colour.

00:30:00.000 And I was like,

00:30:00.660 oh no,

00:30:01.280 you know,

00:30:01.500 am I ever going to,

00:30:02.520 am I ever going to get late?

00:30:03.380 No,

00:30:03.520 I didn't think that.

00:30:04.160 I was too young.

00:30:05.000 I was too young.

00:30:05.740 But anyway,

00:30:06.120 anyway,

00:30:06.380 so it was tough.

00:30:06.960 And walking out of school,

00:30:08.300 there was a,

00:30:08.980 on the back door

00:30:09.680 of the bakery,

00:30:10.480 that everyone,

00:30:11.140 everybody at the school,

00:30:12.540 50% who walked out

00:30:14.000 of that entrance

00:30:14.680 rather than the back entrance,

00:30:16.480 kick peas

00:30:18.940 out of this effing country,

00:30:21.160 vote NF.

00:30:22.100 So this is the National Front.

00:30:23.420 First football match

00:30:24.240 I went to.

00:30:25.160 Viv Anderson,

00:30:25.860 first black player

00:30:27.320 playing for England

00:30:27.940 1978 against Czechoslovakia.

00:30:30.260 I was young,

00:30:31.280 me,

00:30:31.460 my mum and my brother.

00:30:33.260 The N word

00:30:33.960 was used at Anderson

00:30:35.080 by the English fans.

00:30:37.400 I mean,

00:30:37.580 it was just,

00:30:38.220 it was,

00:30:38.620 it was tough.

00:30:40.520 The story of my life

00:30:42.300 is seeing that kind

00:30:43.560 of racism decline

00:30:44.880 in a remarkable

00:30:46.520 and I think

00:30:47.500 wonderful way.

00:30:48.760 I'm not that conscious

00:30:49.880 of my colour anymore.

00:30:52.140 And I think

00:30:52.980 that most people

00:30:53.660 in this country

00:30:54.320 think that racism

00:30:55.140 is a terrible thing.

00:30:56.860 Now you compare

00:30:57.720 what has become

00:30:58.560 in this country,

00:30:59.100 I think a tremendous,

00:30:59.940 which is corroborated

00:31:01.180 by every research report.

00:31:03.360 Tolerant

00:31:03.800 and objective

00:31:05.420 and fair-minded.

00:31:06.960 That's why my father

00:31:07.980 ended up having

00:31:08.580 a fantastic life here.

00:31:10.320 I'm having

00:31:10.720 a fantastic life here.

00:31:11.960 But you go to

00:31:12.660 India,

00:31:15.200 you look at the iniquities

00:31:16.180 of the caste system.

00:31:18.100 Go to Syria,

00:31:19.320 go to sub-Saharan Africa,

00:31:21.320 where ethnic

00:31:22.500 and tribal discrimination

00:31:24.640 is endemic.

00:31:26.560 And then you look

00:31:27.240 at this country

00:31:27.900 and you look

00:31:28.260 at the wider West,

00:31:29.200 we've got a tremendous

00:31:29.960 story to tell

00:31:30.900 on racism.

00:31:33.160 And I think it's worth

00:31:33.960 throwing that into the mix

00:31:35.060 because when liberal,

00:31:35.980 to go back to what

00:31:36.620 we were talking about earlier,

00:31:37.480 liberals are like,

00:31:38.160 oh, we're really worried

00:31:38.960 about racism.

00:31:40.120 It's creating a kind of

00:31:41.040 a reverse kind of racism.

00:31:43.800 And that I think

00:31:44.940 we need to call out

00:31:46.000 and put an end to.

00:31:47.380 See this country,

00:31:48.820 our history,

00:31:50.400 our institutions,

00:31:52.040 what we've achieved

00:31:52.700 as an incredibly

00:31:53.780 positive story

00:31:54.780 and a minor part of that.

00:31:56.560 People like me

00:31:57.240 who have grown up here

00:31:58.080 and have had

00:31:58.340 an absolutely fantastic life.

00:32:00.160 We need to get

00:32:01.240 that message across

00:32:02.180 because there's

00:32:02.700 a deeply negative

00:32:03.700 perception

00:32:04.340 of what this nation

00:32:06.500 stands for.

00:32:07.200 I think that's damaging.

00:32:08.340 I think that's why

00:32:08.900 we all laughed

00:32:09.520 when you,

00:32:10.360 all three of us laughed

00:32:11.340 when you were talking

00:32:12.000 about how the West

00:32:13.020 is the most racist

00:32:13.860 place in the world

00:32:14.620 because all three of us

00:32:15.920 have experiences

00:32:16.740 either directly

00:32:18.180 or by proxy

00:32:18.900 of other parts

00:32:20.440 of the world.

00:32:22.300 But I think

00:32:23.300 you're right

00:32:24.020 that this obsession

00:32:25.380 with racism

00:32:26.100 has created

00:32:26.860 false perceptions

00:32:27.660 and then I would say

00:32:29.340 that those false perceptions,

00:32:30.820 as you alluded to,

00:32:31.700 have created

00:32:32.180 a very difficult environment

00:32:36.380 in which to discuss

00:32:37.640 important truths

00:32:38.780 that make people

00:32:39.540 uncomfortable.

00:32:40.080 So on cousin marriage,

00:32:43.320 you think it should be banned?

00:32:44.980 First cousin marriage

00:32:45.760 should be banned.

00:32:46.180 First cousin marriage.

00:32:46.700 And is it going to be banned?

00:32:48.380 There is a proposal

00:32:49.440 going through Parliament

00:32:50.500 at the moment.

00:32:51.220 I'm very much hoping

00:32:52.280 that the Conservative

00:32:54.140 leadership will back it.

00:32:55.640 Richard Holden

00:32:56.420 gave a very good speech

00:32:57.560 in Parliament.

00:32:58.060 He's really pushing this.

00:32:59.240 I'm slightly involved

00:33:00.540 just as an observer.

00:33:02.320 I think it could happen.

00:33:04.620 And how's it going

00:33:05.160 to be enforced?

00:33:05.880 That was the question

00:33:06.540 that I always had

00:33:07.160 in my mind.

00:33:07.620 How do you work out

00:33:08.340 who's cousin

00:33:09.120 and prevent it

00:33:09.980 from happening?

00:33:10.260 So most American states,

00:33:11.760 just so you know,

00:33:12.720 ban cousin marriage.

00:33:14.620 Norway has just

00:33:15.640 introduced a ban.

00:33:17.020 Sweden and Denmark

00:33:17.900 are proposing it.

00:33:18.880 Other US states

00:33:20.020 are doing so.

00:33:20.900 We're looking at

00:33:21.380 some of the technical details.

00:33:24.900 Things like genetic screening

00:33:26.560 would be able to tell you.

00:33:28.220 And the problem with...

00:33:29.640 But Matthew,

00:33:30.440 this is where

00:33:31.020 the issue comes in.

00:33:31.640 Are you going to screen

00:33:32.420 every marriage

00:33:33.940 genetically in the country?

00:33:36.000 Well, at the moment

00:33:36.600 we have a ban

00:33:38.540 on fathers

00:33:41.160 marrying their daughters

00:33:42.120 and we have a ban

00:33:43.820 on brothers

00:33:45.560 marrying their sisters.

00:33:47.000 If it was made illegal,

00:33:49.240 then there would be

00:33:50.240 a sanction

00:33:50.800 if it was subsequently

00:33:52.020 found out

00:33:52.740 that someone had done it.

00:33:53.860 And it would also send

00:33:54.640 an incredibly powerful signal

00:33:56.220 that we were not going

00:33:57.640 to allow it anymore.

00:33:58.680 I don't think it would require

00:33:59.780 universal genetic testing,

00:34:03.040 but it would,

00:34:04.080 I think,

00:34:04.440 lay down a marker

00:34:05.240 of the...

00:34:05.540 Now, as I say,

00:34:06.180 they've done in other countries

00:34:07.420 with very positive effects,

00:34:10.600 not just,

00:34:11.760 Constantine,

00:34:12.320 on the social side

00:34:14.640 that I've described,

00:34:15.640 but also this genetic risk,

00:34:17.460 which is,

00:34:19.400 you know,

00:34:19.720 the scientific papers

00:34:21.140 say twice as high

00:34:22.180 the risk of congenital abnormalities

00:34:25.180 with first cousin marriage.

00:34:27.440 I just don't believe it anymore.

00:34:29.680 Because if you have

00:34:30.520 multiple repeats

00:34:31.960 cousin marrying

00:34:32.740 within a group

00:34:33.740 over many generations...

00:34:34.860 Think of the build-up

00:34:35.640 of recessive genes.

00:34:37.360 Look at the prevalence

00:34:38.560 of these disorders

00:34:39.500 in precisely the communities

00:34:40.880 I'm describing.

00:34:42.460 I don't think you need

00:34:43.100 to go anything like

00:34:43.960 as far as doing

00:34:44.880 universal genetic testing

00:34:46.480 to put that into law

00:34:48.160 and to show to the society

00:34:50.060 that we think

00:34:50.740 that this change

00:34:51.400 is wise

00:34:53.280 and will be beneficial.

00:34:55.880 OK.

00:34:56.560 We've had a disgusting

00:34:57.660 amount of agreement so far.

00:34:59.120 So you said

00:34:59.780 there's stuff

00:35:00.220 you want to disagree with.

00:35:01.060 I like that.

00:35:01.520 He pointed the finger.

00:35:02.580 Good.

00:35:02.680 I want to actually

00:35:05.600 for you to talk to us

00:35:07.600 about things

00:35:08.100 that you disagree with

00:35:09.260 and so on.

00:35:09.620 But just exploring

00:35:11.120 this clannishness

00:35:12.220 which is the result

00:35:13.420 of these kind of

00:35:15.060 tightly knit

00:35:15.860 blood-based communities.

00:35:18.020 One issue

00:35:18.720 that's obviously

00:35:19.340 been discussed

00:35:20.560 a lot

00:35:21.300 and rightly so

00:35:22.220 because it's

00:35:22.920 a horrific issue

00:35:23.700 is the grooming gangs

00:35:24.620 which

00:35:25.640 I can't imagine

00:35:29.020 that that isn't

00:35:29.800 a contributing factor.

00:35:30.800 I would love

00:35:32.860 to see more evidence

00:35:33.960 on.

00:35:34.180 One of the difficulties

00:35:34.840 as you probably know

00:35:35.900 is that data

00:35:37.040 was not often recorded

00:35:38.620 because they were worried

00:35:39.740 that if we record

00:35:40.540 that the person

00:35:41.160 who is accused

00:35:42.920 of this crime

00:35:43.660 is Pakistani

00:35:44.300 then that might

00:35:45.100 appear racist.

00:35:45.720 racist.

00:35:46.200 So we don't

00:35:47.000 I don't think

00:35:47.620 have the data

00:35:48.440 that we need.

00:35:49.140 I did say in a column

00:35:50.140 that I think

00:35:51.140 it is not coincidental

00:35:52.280 forgive me

00:35:53.240 that I think

00:35:53.860 that it wouldn't

00:35:54.400 prove coincidental

00:35:55.340 if the

00:35:56.780 child rape scandal

00:35:58.900 tended to be more

00:35:59.740 concentrated

00:36:00.320 amongst certain

00:36:01.160 clans

00:36:02.060 where there's

00:36:02.800 incredible fierce

00:36:03.680 loyalty

00:36:04.180 a willingness

00:36:05.120 to cover up

00:36:05.840 for each other

00:36:06.400 where solidarity

00:36:08.000 within the group

00:36:08.940 trumps everything else

00:36:10.060 even reporting

00:36:11.060 somebody for

00:36:11.820 rape.

00:36:12.500 Wouldn't surprise me

00:36:13.640 but I can't

00:36:14.520 prove it

00:36:14.960 because we don't

00:36:15.720 have the data.

00:36:17.040 I was actually

00:36:17.760 having dinner

00:36:18.480 with somebody

00:36:19.020 who was very

00:36:19.960 senior in the

00:36:20.520 home office

00:36:21.080 and working

00:36:21.560 in counter-terrorism

00:36:22.660 who was actually

00:36:23.300 saying that there

00:36:24.040 is data

00:36:24.960 that shows

00:36:25.900 that I can't

00:36:26.860 remember the name

00:36:27.460 of the people

00:36:27.940 but a lot of

00:36:29.020 the people

00:36:29.360 who engage

00:36:30.280 in these type

00:36:30.800 of horrific crimes

00:36:31.920 are from the

00:36:32.580 mountain region

00:36:33.260 of Pakistan.

00:36:34.180 Right.

00:36:34.780 It is their

00:36:35.260 mountain people.

00:36:36.440 That was his

00:36:37.200 assertion.

00:36:38.200 And then he went

00:36:38.640 on to explain

00:36:39.420 that the reason

00:36:40.440 they

00:36:40.660 the reasons

00:36:42.140 why they do

00:36:42.680 that and so

00:36:43.100 on and so

00:36:43.520 forth.

00:36:44.420 So there is

00:36:44.920 apparently

00:36:45.480 I wouldn't

00:36:46.500 be able to

00:36:47.080 you know.

00:36:48.440 No that's

00:36:48.820 right.

00:36:49.040 That's right.

00:36:49.320 And many

00:36:50.020 from the

00:36:50.920 Kashmir

00:36:51.340 this is

00:36:53.220 correct.

00:36:53.900 But it

00:36:54.340 goes to show

00:36:54.880 that when

00:36:55.120 we talk

00:36:55.380 about

00:36:55.560 I think

00:36:56.020 one of

00:36:56.280 the things

00:36:56.680 I know

00:36:57.000 that you

00:36:57.320 you're

00:36:57.600 interested

00:36:58.080 in

00:36:58.240 immigration

00:36:58.540 we talk

00:36:58.880 about

00:36:59.040 immigration

00:36:59.500 and you

00:36:59.880 will have

00:37:00.100 seen

00:37:00.300 this

00:37:00.540 you'll

00:37:00.800 know

00:37:00.980 this

00:37:01.200 as well

00:37:01.440 as

00:37:01.560 anybody

00:37:01.800 else

00:37:02.160 that we

00:37:02.400 talk

00:37:02.600 about

00:37:02.780 it

00:37:02.880 as

00:37:02.980 this

00:37:03.100 broad

00:37:03.420 category

00:37:03.980 but

00:37:04.800 even

00:37:05.160 Pakistani

00:37:05.760 immigrants

00:37:06.500 a massive

00:37:07.280 variation

00:37:08.000 what we

00:37:09.760 really

00:37:10.040 should be

00:37:10.400 thinking

00:37:10.720 about

00:37:11.120 is

00:37:11.340 culture

00:37:11.920 the

00:37:12.920 skills

00:37:13.360 that

00:37:13.540 these

00:37:13.720 people

00:37:13.980 can

00:37:14.200 bring

00:37:14.400 to

00:37:14.540 this

00:37:14.760 country

00:37:15.180 the

00:37:15.980 likelihood

00:37:16.440 of

00:37:16.760 integration

00:37:17.340 do

00:37:18.140 we

00:37:18.400 have

00:37:18.800 the

00:37:19.020 planning

00:37:19.320 laws

00:37:19.640 that

00:37:19.760 enable

00:37:20.040 us

00:37:20.240 to

00:37:20.420 flex

00:37:20.900 infrastructure

00:37:21.540 in order

00:37:21.880 to

00:37:22.060 accommodate

00:37:22.440 them

00:37:22.680 the lack

00:37:23.460 of

00:37:23.620 joined

00:37:23.880 up

00:37:24.040 thinking

00:37:24.440 in

00:37:25.380 our

00:37:25.560 policy

00:37:25.960 over

00:37:26.200 recent

00:37:26.560 years

00:37:26.800 is

00:37:27.020 shocking

00:37:28.020 we

00:37:28.460 should

00:37:28.660 be

00:37:28.820 thinking

00:37:29.140 about

00:37:29.620 inviting

00:37:30.200 people

00:37:30.580 to

00:37:30.780 our

00:37:30.920 country

00:37:31.240 in

00:37:31.440 exactly

00:37:31.780 the

00:37:32.020 way

00:37:32.240 we

00:37:32.620 think

00:37:32.860 about

00:37:33.040 inviting

00:37:33.380 people

00:37:33.680 around

00:37:33.920 for

00:37:34.100 dinner

00:37:34.300 you

00:37:35.360 choose

00:37:36.020 the

00:37:36.180 people

00:37:36.420 carefully

00:37:36.980 you

00:37:37.540 want

00:37:37.760 to

00:37:37.920 make

00:37:38.080 sure

00:37:38.280 there's

00:37:38.660 a

00:37:38.760 good

00:37:38.900 fit

00:37:39.220 not

00:37:39.480 only

00:37:39.740 with

00:37:39.980 you

00:37:40.260 but

00:37:40.480 with

00:37:40.660 the

00:37:40.760 other

00:37:40.900 people

00:37:41.180 who

00:37:41.360 are

00:37:41.480 coming

00:37:41.800 you

00:37:42.440 invite

00:37:42.780 them

00:37:42.960 in

00:37:43.100 manageable

00:37:43.500 numbers

00:37:44.020 that

00:37:44.220 correspond

00:37:44.660 to

00:37:44.900 the

00:37:45.040 size

00:37:45.280 of

00:37:45.380 the

00:37:45.500 table

00:37:45.860 and

00:37:46.100 the

00:37:46.220 ability

00:37:46.540 to

00:37:46.780 provide

00:37:47.100 food

00:37:47.500 you

00:37:48.120 think

00:37:48.560 about

00:37:48.920 letting

00:37:49.360 people

00:37:49.680 into

00:37:50.000 your

00:37:50.200 home

00:37:50.500 very

00:37:51.080 carefully

00:37:51.740 well

00:37:52.200 this

00:37:52.420 is

00:37:52.580 our

00:37:52.740 home

00:37:52.980 and

00:37:53.440 we

00:37:53.580 should

00:37:53.680 be

00:37:53.820 thinking

00:37:54.060 about

00:37:54.380 it

00:37:54.520 just

00:37:54.800 as

00:37:54.940 carefully

00:37:55.220 or

00:37:55.600 perhaps

00:37:56.080 a

00:37:56.220 different

00:37:56.440 metaphor

00:37:56.780 imagine

00:37:57.280 you

00:37:57.440 have

00:37:57.580 a

00:37:57.700 business

00:37:58.040 you

00:37:59.040 will

00:37:59.520 bring

00:37:59.740 people

00:38:00.100 in

00:38:00.280 that

00:38:00.440 will

00:38:00.620 increase

00:38:00.920 your

00:38:01.100 profitability

00:38:01.500 and

00:38:02.180 you

00:38:03.820 do

00:38:04.020 so

00:38:04.440 sensibly

00:38:05.580 and

00:38:06.100 wisely

00:38:06.700 as

00:38:07.100 you

00:38:07.240 say

00:38:07.500 do

00:38:07.720 we

00:38:07.860 have

00:38:08.020 enough

00:38:08.240 desks

00:38:08.660 and

00:38:08.780 all

00:38:08.880 the

00:38:09.000 rest

00:38:09.180 of

00:38:09.300 it

00:38:09.420 we

00:38:10.060 haven't

00:38:10.400 used

00:38:10.620 that

00:38:10.780 lens

00:38:11.000 at

00:38:11.140 all

00:38:11.440 so

00:38:13.160 here's

00:38:14.060 the

00:38:14.160 thing

00:38:14.300 that

00:38:14.440 worries

00:38:14.700 me

00:38:14.860 I

00:38:14.960 don't

00:38:15.080 know

00:38:15.140 if

00:38:15.200 you

00:38:15.300 feel

00:38:15.540 this

00:38:15.840 so

00:38:16.120 we

00:38:16.260 agreed

00:38:16.500 a

00:38:16.660 lot

00:38:16.860 go

00:38:18.680 on

00:38:18.860 have

00:38:19.300 a

00:38:19.940 go

00:38:20.100 so

00:38:20.480 I

00:38:20.700 definitely

00:38:21.240 take

00:38:21.680 very

00:38:22.020 seriously

00:38:22.540 the

00:38:22.820 comments

00:38:23.400 of

00:38:24.620 the

00:38:24.780 readers

00:38:25.080 at

00:38:25.240 the

00:38:25.340 Times

00:38:25.560 newspaper

00:38:25.980 I

00:38:26.660 think

00:38:26.860 they're

00:38:27.080 broadly

00:38:27.540 very

00:38:28.740 similar

00:38:29.080 to

00:38:29.240 the

00:38:29.340 way

00:38:29.460 I

00:38:29.580 think

00:38:29.820 about

00:38:30.020 the

00:38:30.160 world

00:38:30.320 there

00:38:30.520 has

00:38:30.700 definitely

00:38:31.060 been

00:38:31.260 an

00:38:31.420 uptick

00:38:31.920 in

00:38:33.160 the

00:38:33.300 willingness

00:38:33.640 to

00:38:34.360 indiscriminately

00:38:36.160 go after

00:38:36.740 all

00:38:37.020 Muslims

00:38:37.460 and

00:38:38.300 certain

00:38:38.700 degree

00:38:38.980 of

00:38:39.140 sympathy

00:38:39.420 for

00:38:39.660 Tommy

00:38:39.880 Robinson

00:38:40.280 and

00:38:41.520 I

00:38:41.900 do

00:38:42.220 so

00:38:42.900 this

00:38:43.220 wonderful

00:38:43.640 story

00:38:44.240 of

00:38:45.100 progress

00:38:45.700 on

00:38:46.580 race

00:38:46.960 in

00:38:47.800 this

00:38:47.980 country

00:38:48.360 I

00:38:49.080 think

00:38:49.300 there's

00:38:49.560 a

00:38:49.720 not

00:38:49.980 insignificant

00:38:50.860 possibility

00:38:51.700 that

00:38:51.920 because

00:38:52.140 of

00:38:52.340 these

00:38:52.520 terrible

00:38:52.960 liberal

00:38:53.380 failings

00:38:53.900 don't

00:38:54.080 get me

00:38:54.340 wrong

00:38:54.580 I

00:38:55.120 can

00:38:55.260 understand

00:38:55.620 why

00:38:55.860 it's

00:38:56.020 happening

00:38:56.320 there

00:38:56.980 may

00:38:57.280 be

00:38:57.660 a

00:38:58.120 slight

00:38:58.740 reversal

00:38:59.300 that's

00:38:59.920 why

00:39:00.040 we

00:39:00.200 should

00:39:00.360 stop

00:39:00.560 the

00:39:00.700 liberal

00:39:00.920 failings

00:39:01.460 yeah

00:39:02.120 that's

00:39:02.360 right

00:39:02.560 but

00:39:02.760 we

00:39:02.880 should

00:39:03.000 also

00:39:03.240 not

00:39:03.560 stop

00:39:03.800 we

00:39:04.200 also

00:39:04.720 must

00:39:05.200 I

00:39:05.540 think

00:39:05.820 call

00:39:06.200 out

00:39:06.560 Robinson

00:39:07.180 Musk

00:39:08.080 the

00:39:09.260 very

00:39:09.580 far

00:39:09.920 right

00:39:10.360 forgive

00:39:10.960 me

00:39:11.660 let me

00:39:13.200 rephrase

00:39:13.660 that

00:39:13.820 I

00:39:14.080 paused

00:39:15.020 I

00:39:15.220 paused

00:39:15.640 I

00:39:16.240 admire

00:39:16.760 him

00:39:17.020 enormously

00:39:17.560 I

00:39:17.800 don't

00:39:17.900 know

00:39:17.960 if

00:39:24.240 you

00:39:26.080 listened

00:39:26.100 to

00:39:26.200 the

00:39:26.760 technologies

00:39:27.340 in

00:39:27.580 the

00:39:27.680 various

00:39:27.960 companies

00:39:28.360 I

00:39:28.540 listened

00:39:28.780 to

00:39:29.020 a

00:39:29.120 very

00:39:29.240 long

00:39:29.440 one

00:39:29.600 on

00:39:29.740 Neuralink

00:39:30.220 which

00:39:30.400 is

00:39:30.520 extremely

00:39:31.020 interesting

00:39:31.520 but

00:39:32.420 Tesla

00:39:32.780 of

00:39:33.000 course

00:39:33.260 and

00:39:33.440 SpaceX

00:39:33.880 the

00:39:35.020 AI

00:39:35.460 startups

00:39:36.320 that

00:39:37.020 empirical

00:39:37.640 rigour

00:39:38.900 that

00:39:39.060 he

00:39:39.200 must

00:39:39.480 apply

00:39:39.840 all

00:39:40.140 engineers

00:39:40.580 must

00:39:40.860 apply

00:39:41.160 empirical

00:39:41.560 rigour

00:39:41.840 otherwise

00:39:42.160 their

00:39:42.500 devices

00:39:42.880 will

00:39:43.100 not

00:39:43.320 work

00:39:43.740 but

00:39:44.400 in

00:39:44.520 the

00:39:44.640 political

00:39:44.980 space

00:39:45.500 he

00:39:45.660 does

00:39:45.840 seem

00:39:46.040 to

00:39:46.200 be

00:39:46.340 making

00:39:46.860 comments

00:39:47.320 worth

00:39:47.480 having

00:39:47.680 done

00:39:47.840 the

00:39:47.960 necessary

00:39:48.300 research

00:39:48.980 and

00:39:49.880 I

00:39:50.020 do

00:39:50.220 worry

00:39:50.540 about

00:39:50.860 him

00:39:51.080 promoting

00:39:51.540 people

00:39:51.880 like

00:39:52.120 Tommy

00:39:52.360 Robinson

00:39:52.780 now

00:39:53.340 somebody

00:39:53.780 might

00:39:54.060 say

00:39:54.280 yeah

00:39:54.440 but

00:39:54.580 you

00:39:54.760 need

00:39:55.000 to

00:39:55.160 have

00:39:55.520 you

00:39:56.380 know

00:39:56.480 massive

00:39:56.940 backlash

00:39:57.460 in order

00:39:57.780 to get

00:39:58.120 back

00:39:58.360 to the

00:39:58.700 equilibrium

00:39:59.100 I

00:39:59.400 don't

00:39:59.620 think

00:39:59.840 that's

00:40:00.120 right

00:40:00.420 I

00:40:00.680 think

00:40:00.920 liberals

00:40:01.360 should

00:40:01.720 be

00:40:01.920 strong

00:40:02.500 and

00:40:03.020 rational

00:40:03.480 and

00:40:03.800 objective

00:40:04.340 but

00:40:04.660 they

00:40:04.820 aren't

00:40:05.500 they've

00:40:05.860 not

00:40:06.000 been

00:40:06.160 enough

00:40:06.480 but

00:40:06.660 they

00:40:07.020 aren't

00:40:07.340 and

00:40:07.520 so

00:40:07.760 to

00:40:08.260 me

00:40:08.480 when

00:40:08.700 people

00:40:09.000 like

00:40:09.400 people

00:40:09.640 say

00:40:09.780 what

00:40:09.940 do

00:40:10.060 you

00:40:10.100 think

00:40:10.280 about

00:40:10.520 Andrew

00:40:10.800 Tate

00:40:11.000 I

00:40:11.380 think

00:40:11.840 he's

00:40:12.160 a

00:40:12.680 toxic

00:40:13.660 figure

00:40:14.040 but

00:40:14.660 I

00:40:14.880 don't

00:40:15.340 care

00:40:15.580 about

00:40:15.780 Andrew

00:40:16.060 Tate

00:40:16.280 I

00:40:16.440 don't

00:40:16.620 blame

00:40:16.900 him

00:40:17.260 for

00:40:17.520 being

00:40:17.780 Andrew

00:40:18.100 Tate

00:40:18.360 the

00:40:18.860 Andrew

00:40:19.160 Tates

00:40:19.440 of the

00:40:19.720 world

00:40:19.960 exist

00:40:20.640 and

00:40:20.900 will

00:40:21.080 always

00:40:21.460 exist

00:40:21.820 and

00:40:22.500 I

00:40:23.040 see

00:40:23.340 them

00:40:23.720 like

00:40:24.860 Tommy

00:40:25.100 Robinson

00:40:25.400 as a

00:40:25.900 symptom

00:40:26.200 of

00:40:26.540 the

00:40:26.740 failure

00:40:27.160 of

00:40:27.580 liberals

00:40:28.120 to

00:40:28.440 actually

00:40:28.820 do

00:40:29.060 the

00:40:29.240 things

00:40:29.460 that

00:40:29.600 need

00:40:29.760 to

00:40:29.880 be

00:40:30.000 doing

00:40:30.220 so

00:40:30.480 for

00:40:30.960 us

00:40:31.120 to

00:40:31.260 sit

00:40:31.440 there

00:40:31.600 and

00:40:31.680 pontificate

00:40:32.280 about

00:40:32.520 Tommy

00:40:32.780 Robinson

00:40:33.080 I

00:40:33.340 don't

00:40:34.000 see

00:40:34.160 the

00:40:34.300 value

00:40:34.600 in

00:40:34.780 that

00:40:34.980 but

00:40:35.140 what

00:40:35.280 about

00:40:35.840 say

00:40:36.060 for

00:40:36.200 example

00:40:36.640 Tommy

00:40:38.060 Robinson

00:40:38.480 or

00:40:39.180 the

00:40:39.520 alternative

00:40:40.360 for

00:40:40.560 Deutschland

00:40:40.880 or

00:40:41.120 others

00:40:41.500 make

00:40:42.360 very

00:40:42.640 indiscriminate

00:40:43.340 remarks

00:40:43.800 about

00:40:44.120 immigrants

00:40:44.780 tarnishing

00:40:45.600 all

00:40:45.920 people

00:40:46.340 now

00:40:46.740 I

00:40:47.160 think

00:40:47.520 the

00:40:48.660 sensible

00:40:49.020 thing

00:40:49.260 is

00:40:49.400 no

00:40:49.920 that's

00:40:50.620 not

00:40:50.780 right

00:40:51.140 and

00:40:51.840 at

00:40:52.000 the

00:40:52.140 same

00:40:52.380 time

00:40:52.640 to

00:40:52.780 say

00:40:52.920 to

00:40:53.060 the

00:40:53.200 liberals

00:40:53.480 who

00:40:53.680 are

00:40:53.760 not

00:40:53.920 publishing

00:40:54.280 data

00:40:54.620 on

00:40:54.940 the

00:40:55.340 relevance

00:40:55.640 of

00:40:55.800 incest

00:40:56.120 that

00:40:56.660 is

00:40:56.860 a

00:40:56.980 disgrace

00:40:57.400 why

00:40:58.140 not

00:40:58.780 be

00:40:59.040 strong

00:41:01.480 and

00:41:02.040 trenchant

00:41:02.500 towards

00:41:02.780 both

00:41:03.140 of

00:41:03.300 these

00:41:03.420 because

00:41:03.840 what

00:41:04.080 we're

00:41:04.300 trying

00:41:04.540 to

00:41:04.700 do

00:41:04.900 is

00:41:05.040 solve

00:41:05.240 the

00:41:05.380 problem

00:41:05.740 the

00:41:06.260 problem

00:41:06.660 I

00:41:07.100 don't

00:41:07.260 see

00:41:07.440 Tommy

00:41:07.700 Robinson

00:41:08.080 as

00:41:08.420 the

00:41:08.600 problem

00:41:08.980 the

00:41:09.480 problem

00:41:09.860 is

00:41:10.180 liberal

00:41:10.800 failings

00:41:11.320 for

00:41:11.480 decades

00:41:12.060 that

00:41:12.680 allowed

00:41:13.060 mass

00:41:13.440 rape

00:41:13.800 on

00:41:14.900 an

00:41:15.240 industrial

00:41:15.720 scale

00:41:16.260 across

00:41:16.600 cities

00:41:17.000 up and

00:41:17.400 down

00:41:17.600 this

00:41:17.800 country

00:41:18.160 I

00:41:19.020 see

00:41:19.320 uncontrolled

00:41:20.060 mass

00:41:20.340 immigration

00:41:20.860 I

00:41:21.460 see

00:41:21.780 illegal

00:41:22.300 immigration

00:41:22.740 so

00:41:22.980 I

00:41:23.200 came

00:41:23.400 to

00:41:23.520 this

00:41:23.680 country

00:41:23.920 in

00:41:24.080 1995

00:41:24.880 96

00:41:25.780 in

00:41:26.260 1996

00:41:26.880 net

00:41:28.020 immigration

00:41:28.780 into

00:41:29.240 Britain

00:41:29.540 was

00:41:29.800 55

00:41:30.300 thousand

00:41:30.820 a

00:41:31.000 year

00:41:31.140 that's

00:41:31.660 the

00:41:31.760 number

00:41:31.960 of

00:41:32.100 people

00:41:32.300 who

00:41:32.440 now

00:41:32.580 come

00:41:32.780 here

00:41:32.940 illegally

00:41:33.440 right

00:41:34.260 so

00:41:34.780 we

00:41:35.100 have

00:41:35.240 seen

00:41:35.460 a

00:41:35.720 catastrophe

00:41:36.300 more

00:41:37.000 people

00:41:37.300 have

00:41:37.500 come

00:41:37.660 into

00:41:37.880 this

00:41:38.080 country

00:41:38.480 in

00:41:39.040 the

00:41:39.140 last

00:41:39.400 two

00:41:39.880 not

00:41:41.340 in

00:41:41.480 the

00:41:41.520 last

00:41:41.660 two

00:41:41.800 parliaments

00:41:42.120 but

00:41:42.280 basically

00:41:42.580 since

00:41:42.860 Blair

00:41:43.080 came

00:41:43.380 in

00:41:43.580 than

00:41:44.040 it

00:41:44.180 comes

00:41:44.460 since

00:41:44.700 1066

00:41:45.400 1066

00:41:46.920 to

00:41:47.160 1950

00:41:47.740 in

00:41:48.060 terms

00:41:48.260 of

00:41:48.400 the

00:41:48.540 numbers

00:41:48.860 that's

00:41:49.140 right

00:41:49.360 so

00:41:50.120 that's

00:41:51.760 not

00:41:52.080 Tommy

00:41:52.400 Robinson's

00:41:53.020 fault

00:41:53.260 and

00:41:53.820 the

00:41:54.000 fact

00:41:54.220 that

00:41:54.400 he

00:41:54.600 may

00:41:54.980 speak

00:41:55.480 in

00:41:55.640 a

00:41:55.740 way

00:41:55.880 that's

00:41:56.160 generally

00:41:56.460 generalising

00:41:57.020 is a

00:41:57.240 bad

00:41:57.440 thing

00:41:57.820 and

00:41:58.660 people

00:41:59.020 who

00:41:59.240 do

00:41:59.460 that

00:41:59.760 are

00:42:00.200 wrong

00:42:00.440 to

00:42:00.620 do

00:42:00.780 so

00:42:01.020 and

00:42:01.200 people

00:42:01.420 who

00:42:01.580 burn

00:42:01.880 down

00:42:02.200 asylum

00:42:02.620 seeker

00:42:02.960 hotels

00:42:03.340 are

00:42:03.500 morons

00:42:03.900 who

00:42:04.040 should

00:42:04.160 go

00:42:04.300 to

00:42:04.440 prison

00:42:04.720 we

00:42:05.120 can

00:42:05.280 say

00:42:05.440 all

00:42:05.560 those

00:42:05.720 things

00:42:05.920 it's

00:42:06.320 not

00:42:06.440 going

00:42:06.540 to

00:42:06.620 fix

00:42:06.780 the

00:42:06.920 problem

00:42:07.660 is

00:42:09.160 forcing

00:42:09.540 the

00:42:09.760 politicians

00:42:10.280 to

00:42:11.040 take

00:42:11.340 this

00:42:11.580 issue

00:42:11.840 seriously

00:42:12.220 and

00:42:12.520 they

00:42:12.700 don't

00:42:13.160 until

00:42:14.700 people

00:42:15.040 are

00:42:15.240 on

00:42:15.340 the

00:42:15.420 here's

00:42:26.360 a story

00:42:26.720 for you

00:42:27.240 probably

00:42:28.360 around

00:42:28.720 2018

00:42:29.700 2019

00:42:30.280 I was

00:42:31.020 gigging

00:42:31.280 in

00:42:31.420 Manchester

00:42:31.820 and

00:42:32.800 I

00:42:32.900 noticed

00:42:34.300 this

00:42:34.600 girl

00:42:34.980 had

00:42:35.320 a

00:42:35.480 tattoo

00:42:35.780 of

00:42:36.020 a

00:42:36.260 bee

00:42:36.500 on

00:42:36.940 her

00:42:37.120 shoulder

00:42:37.440 and

00:42:38.120 I

00:42:38.220 could

00:42:39.640 see

00:42:39.780 all

00:42:39.920 these

00:42:40.080 bees

00:42:40.460 being

00:42:40.720 tattooed

00:42:41.240 on

00:42:41.360 people

00:42:41.720 and

00:42:41.980 I

00:42:42.080 said

00:42:42.260 to

00:42:42.420 her

00:42:42.600 excuse

00:42:43.340 me

00:42:43.620 why

00:42:44.840 have

00:42:44.980 you

00:42:45.080 got

00:42:45.200 a

00:42:45.500 bee

00:42:45.720 tattooed

00:42:46.180 on

00:42:46.300 your

00:42:46.460 shoulder

00:42:46.760 and

00:42:46.920 she

00:42:47.060 goes

00:42:47.400 it's

00:42:48.560 a

00:42:49.140 mark

00:42:49.380 of

00:42:49.540 remembrance

00:42:50.000 for

00:42:50.900 the

00:42:51.160 Manchester

00:42:51.500 bombings

00:42:52.400 and

00:42:54.180 I

00:42:54.420 noticed

00:42:54.700 how

00:42:54.940 tolerant

00:42:55.380 people

00:42:55.820 were

00:42:56.180 being

00:42:56.560 around

00:42:57.040 that

00:42:57.220 around

00:42:57.480 what

00:42:57.680 was

00:42:57.880 quite

00:42:58.140 frankly

00:42:58.620 a

00:42:58.940 heinous

00:42:59.360 crime

00:42:59.760 heinous

00:43:00.420 and

00:43:00.620 evil

00:43:01.020 but

00:43:01.980 then

00:43:02.140 you

00:43:02.280 look

00:43:02.560 after

00:43:02.920 terrorist

00:43:03.460 attack

00:43:03.900 after

00:43:04.180 terrorist

00:43:04.620 attack

00:43:05.040 after

00:43:05.400 and

00:43:06.440 we're

00:43:06.820 not

00:43:07.000 talking

00:43:07.320 honestly

00:43:07.780 for

00:43:08.040 instance

00:43:08.360 the

00:43:08.560 murder

00:43:08.780 of

00:43:08.900 David

00:43:09.220 Amos

00:43:09.620 we

00:43:10.660 weren't

00:43:11.020 talking

00:43:11.400 honestly

00:43:11.820 about

00:43:12.160 that

00:43:12.400 we

00:43:12.760 were

00:43:12.920 talking

00:43:13.300 about

00:43:13.720 online

00:43:15.340 hate

00:43:16.640 when

00:43:17.340 it was

00:43:17.560 obviously

00:43:17.820 something

00:43:18.220 very

00:43:18.540 different

00:43:19.060 and

00:43:19.900 there

00:43:20.040 comes

00:43:20.320 a

00:43:20.520 point

00:43:20.900 Matthew

00:43:21.300 where

00:43:21.960 people

00:43:22.280 stop

00:43:22.840 wanting

00:43:23.580 to

00:43:24.200 get

00:43:24.540 tattoos

00:43:25.100 and

00:43:25.520 they

00:43:25.720 stop

00:43:26.140 wanting

00:43:26.860 to

00:43:27.120 have

00:43:27.320 calm

00:43:27.600 discussions

00:43:28.120 and

00:43:28.740 they

00:43:28.860 become

00:43:29.240 very

00:43:29.980 angry

00:43:31.240 understandably

00:43:32.440 so

00:43:32.780 and

00:43:33.500 what

00:43:33.760 I

00:43:33.940 see

00:43:34.160 in

00:43:34.320 this

00:43:34.520 country

00:43:34.920 is

00:43:35.260 the

00:43:35.440 anger

00:43:35.820 is

00:43:36.080 palpable

00:43:36.700 and

00:43:37.700 so

00:43:37.940 when

00:43:38.180 you

00:43:38.380 see

00:43:38.700 people

00:43:39.080 like

00:43:39.420 Robinson

00:43:39.860 what

00:43:40.800 the

00:43:41.120 reason

00:43:41.460 Robinson

00:43:41.880 exists

00:43:42.520 is

00:43:43.100 because

00:43:43.500 our

00:43:44.280 politicians

00:43:45.100 our

00:43:45.680 cultural

00:43:46.160 leaders

00:43:46.660 our

00:43:47.080 journalists

00:43:47.680 have

00:43:48.120 created

00:43:48.640 a

00:43:48.900 vacuum

00:43:49.300 where

00:43:49.800 they

00:43:49.940 do

00:43:50.200 not

00:43:50.420 want

00:43:50.640 to

00:43:50.800 talk

00:43:51.020 about

00:43:51.240 these

00:43:51.440 difficult

00:43:51.840 issues

00:43:52.320 and

00:43:52.920 where

00:43:53.200 as

00:43:53.480 we

00:43:53.620 all

00:43:53.780 know

00:43:53.940 nature

00:43:54.220 abhors

00:43:54.600 a

00:43:54.760 vacuum

00:43:55.060 and

00:43:55.300 where

00:43:55.460 people

00:43:55.760 like

00:43:56.060 Robinson

00:43:56.460 can

00:43:56.760 come

00:43:56.960 in

00:43:57.080 and

00:43:57.220 flourish

00:43:57.640 so

00:43:58.180 let

00:43:58.340 me

00:44:00.660 just

00:44:01.360 throw

00:44:01.980 in

00:44:02.120 a

00:44:02.180 couple

00:44:02.340 so

00:44:02.820 let's

00:44:03.320 just

00:44:03.520 get

00:44:04.400 two

00:44:04.640 issues

00:44:04.980 one

00:44:05.540 is

00:44:05.800 the

00:44:06.340 combustibility

00:44:07.140 in

00:44:07.740 society

00:44:08.240 is

00:44:08.420 unquestionably

00:44:09.100 a

00:44:09.300 consequence

00:44:09.780 of

00:44:10.900 decades

00:44:11.340 of

00:44:11.540 liberal

00:44:11.780 failure

00:44:12.180 the

00:44:13.240 immigration

00:44:13.700 thing

00:44:13.960 is

00:44:14.060 remarkable

00:44:14.440 isn't

00:44:14.680 it

00:44:15.240 so

00:44:15.840 from

00:44:16.080 1066

00:44:16.760 so

00:44:17.360 obviously

00:44:17.560 we had

00:44:17.760 a much

00:44:18.020 smaller

00:44:18.300 population

00:44:18.840 back

00:44:19.120 then

00:44:19.340 I

00:44:19.460 mean

00:44:19.560 I

00:44:19.680 think

00:44:19.820 our

00:44:19.980 population

00:44:20.280 was

00:44:20.460 only

00:44:20.620 2

00:44:20.880 million

00:44:21.160 in

00:44:21.380 the

00:44:21.680 19th

00:44:22.320 century

00:44:22.700 before

00:44:23.420 the

00:44:23.620 industrial

00:44:23.940 revolution

00:44:24.640 or

00:44:25.080 its

00:44:25.720 early

00:44:25.980 stages

00:44:26.400 I

00:44:26.580 suppose

00:44:26.960 but

00:44:27.580 that's

00:44:27.740 still

00:44:27.920 astonishing

00:44:28.640 and

00:44:30.080 what's

00:44:30.460 even

00:44:30.680 worse

00:44:31.320 is

00:44:31.760 the

00:44:32.180 consistent

00:44:32.940 and

00:44:33.180 serial

00:44:33.420 deceit

00:44:34.140 so

00:44:34.840 there's

00:44:36.400 two

00:44:36.600 questions

00:44:37.080 that

00:44:37.300 arise

00:44:37.660 why

00:44:37.960 did

00:44:38.140 it

00:44:38.280 happen

00:44:38.580 why

00:44:39.620 did

00:44:39.820 it

00:44:39.960 happen

00:44:40.260 and

00:44:40.920 why

00:44:41.080 is

00:44:41.220 it

00:44:41.300 not

00:44:41.460 being

00:44:41.660 dealt

00:44:41.920 with

00:44:42.160 now

00:44:42.640 you're

00:44:42.820 going

00:44:42.920 to

00:44:43.000 say

00:44:43.260 and

00:44:43.580 you

00:44:43.700 kind

00:44:43.960 of

00:44:44.060 said

00:44:44.340 that

00:44:44.580 you

00:44:45.080 need

00:44:45.400 sometimes

00:44:45.880 to

00:44:46.020 have

00:44:46.200 people

00:44:46.520 who

00:44:46.660 are

00:44:46.760 going

00:44:46.860 to

00:44:46.920 be

00:44:47.060 very

00:44:47.500 trenchant

00:44:48.740 and

00:44:49.340 perhaps

00:44:49.540 go

00:44:49.720 too

00:44:49.980 far

00:44:50.220 in

00:44:50.340 their

00:44:50.480 comments

00:44:50.820 in

00:44:51.000 order

00:44:51.140 to

00:44:51.320 get

00:44:51.480 the

00:44:51.640 road

00:44:51.840 back

00:44:52.120 that's

00:44:58.640 it's

00:44:59.080 the

00:44:59.180 inevitable

00:44:59.640 consequence

00:45:00.240 I don't

00:45:01.520 think

00:45:01.660 it's

00:45:01.780 inevitable

00:45:02.060 but

00:45:02.240 it's

00:45:02.460 unquestionably

00:45:03.100 a

00:45:03.260 consequence

00:45:03.680 so

00:45:04.460 here's

00:45:05.720 a question

00:45:06.060 for you

00:45:06.900 why

00:45:08.320 has

00:45:10.040 this

00:45:10.260 failure

00:45:10.540 happened

00:45:10.860 why

00:45:11.160 have

00:45:11.360 conservatives

00:45:11.960 to cut

00:45:14.040 immigration

00:45:14.620 and then

00:45:16.180 failed to

00:45:16.700 do so

00:45:16.980 very

00:45:17.180 easily

00:45:17.460 we'll get

00:45:18.740 you back

00:45:19.120 to the

00:45:19.440 interview

00:45:19.800 in a

00:45:20.140 minute

00:45:20.340 but

00:45:20.920 first

00:45:21.460 that

00:45:22.460 my

00:45:22.660 friends

00:45:23.020 is the

00:45:23.500 sound

00:45:23.760 of

00:45:23.900 another

00:45:24.240 sale

00:45:24.600 on

00:45:24.780 Shopify

00:45:25.220 the

00:45:25.860 all-in-one

00:45:26.600 commerce

00:45:27.080 platform

00:45:27.620 to start

00:45:28.200 run

00:45:28.560 and grow

00:45:29.140 your

00:45:29.380 business

00:45:29.860 I know

00:45:30.560 that

00:45:30.800 building

00:45:31.080 a

00:45:31.280 business

00:45:31.580 takes

00:45:32.080 work

00:45:32.640 look

00:45:33.280 at

00:45:33.440 my

00:45:33.640 face

00:45:34.140 I'm

00:45:34.360 exhausted

00:45:35.020 but

00:45:35.840 the

00:45:35.980 lovely

00:45:36.200 thing

00:45:36.460 about

00:45:36.680 Shopify

00:45:37.140 is that

00:45:37.660 no matter

00:45:38.040 how big

00:45:38.540 you want

00:45:38.820 to grow

00:45:39.180 Shopify

00:45:39.860 is with

00:45:40.620 you

00:45:40.820 every step

00:45:41.620 of the

00:45:41.820 way

00:45:42.060 Shopify

00:45:42.740 is a

00:45:43.400 commerce

00:45:43.740 platform

00:45:44.320 revolutionizing

00:45:45.640 millions

00:45:46.120 of businesses

00:45:46.780 worldwide

00:45:47.560 whether you're

00:45:48.540 selling

00:45:48.800 handmade

00:45:49.240 jewelry

00:45:49.780 art prints

00:45:50.720 or podcast

00:45:51.580 merch

00:45:52.100 like us

00:45:52.680 buy our

00:45:53.240 merch

00:45:53.600 Shopify

00:45:54.380 simplifies

00:45:55.260 selling

00:45:55.640 online

00:45:56.180 and in

00:45:56.800 person

00:45:57.160 so you

00:45:57.820 can successfully

00:45:58.600 grow your

00:45:59.300 business

00:45:59.820 Shopify

00:46:00.600 even gets

00:46:01.620 you selling

00:46:02.080 across social

00:46:03.140 media marketplaces

00:46:04.480 like Facebook

00:46:05.640 Instagram

00:46:06.200 and TikTok

00:46:06.880 TikTok just makes

00:46:08.320 me angry

00:46:08.740 I'm too old

00:46:09.460 so if you're ready

00:46:11.180 to get serious

00:46:11.920 about selling

00:46:12.620 sign up for a

00:46:13.820 one pound per month

00:46:14.940 trial period

00:46:15.720 at

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00:46:18.540 slash trigger

00:46:19.760 go to

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00:46:22.960 slash trigger

00:46:24.180 and one more

00:46:25.840 time for luck

00:46:26.660 that's

00:46:27.460 shopify.co.uk

00:46:29.880 slash trigger

00:46:31.260 and now

00:46:32.220 back to the

00:46:33.320 interview

00:46:33.740 we had

00:46:35.940 Sola Brownman

00:46:36.560 on the show

00:46:36.860 talk about this

00:46:37.540 and it's obvious

00:46:39.100 anyway

00:46:39.560 our growth is

00:46:40.760 stagnant

00:46:41.240 for all sorts

00:46:42.260 of reasons

00:46:42.680 our debt

00:46:43.260 is massive

00:46:43.820 and the only

00:46:44.700 way politicians

00:46:45.380 can pretend

00:46:46.140 we're actually

00:46:46.680 growing

00:46:47.080 when our

00:46:47.540 GDP per capita

00:46:48.440 is lower

00:46:49.140 today than

00:46:49.700 it was in

00:46:50.080 2007

00:46:50.800 it's lower

00:46:52.260 today than

00:46:53.040 it was in

00:46:53.520 2007

00:46:54.180 the only way

00:46:55.120 they can

00:46:55.420 pretend that

00:46:56.000 they're delivering

00:46:56.820 growth

00:46:57.380 which they're not

00:46:58.420 it's still like

00:46:58.880 0. whatever percent

00:46:59.900 or sometimes

00:47:00.440 negative growth

00:47:01.220 is to bring

00:47:02.120 more bodies

00:47:02.700 in

00:47:02.980 so you can

00:47:04.280 say to people

00:47:04.980 well the economy

00:47:06.060 has grown

00:47:06.420 by 0.1 percent

00:47:07.700 how did that

00:47:08.260 happen

00:47:08.540 you brought

00:47:09.300 in a bunch

00:47:09.720 of people

00:47:10.120 who work

00:47:10.760 for 18

00:47:11.220 grand a year

00:47:11.920 so your

00:47:12.580 GDP

00:47:13.000 is higher

00:47:13.800 I don't think

00:47:14.300 that can

00:47:14.600 possibly be

00:47:15.160 the explanation

00:47:15.680 that's what

00:47:16.960 the politicians

00:47:17.540 themselves

00:47:18.020 are telling

00:47:18.360 the treasury

00:47:19.240 cares more

00:47:20.160 about growth

00:47:21.260 figures than

00:47:21.780 it does

00:47:22.100 about

00:47:22.420 the country

00:47:22.780 I don't think

00:47:22.900 they're telling

00:47:23.220 the truth

00:47:23.560 and I'll tell

00:47:24.020 you why

00:47:24.420 I don't think

00:47:25.160 because politicians

00:47:28.060 make the policies

00:47:29.260 and they care

00:47:29.840 about something

00:47:30.400 a lot

00:47:30.740 they don't care

00:47:31.260 about what

00:47:31.820 growth

00:47:32.080 they want

00:47:32.400 to be

00:47:32.580 re-elected

00:47:33.800 they want

00:47:34.100 to be

00:47:34.300 re-elected

00:47:35.020 and low

00:47:37.160 wage

00:47:37.580 mass immigration

00:47:38.680 makes life

00:47:40.000 easier for

00:47:40.480 people in

00:47:40.880 the short

00:47:41.220 term

00:47:41.520 because it

00:47:44.660 means that

00:47:45.080 you have

00:47:45.480 relatively

00:47:46.960 cheap people

00:47:47.840 to work

00:47:48.260 in the

00:47:48.480 care home

00:47:49.000 to do

00:47:49.340 all the

00:47:49.600 jobs

00:47:49.820 that need

00:47:50.120 to be

00:47:50.340 done

00:47:50.540 you cut

00:47:51.380 it

00:47:51.640 it's going

00:47:52.180 to be

00:47:52.340 very painful

00:47:52.900 in the

00:47:53.140 short

00:47:53.340 term

00:47:53.480 the problem

00:47:54.260 with these

00:47:54.600 people

00:47:54.900 isn't that

00:47:55.380 it reduces

00:47:55.860 GDP per

00:47:56.780 capita

00:47:57.040 instantly

00:47:57.600 the problem

00:47:58.720 is it's

00:47:59.040 long term

00:47:59.420 fiscal effect

00:48:00.280 that these

00:48:01.220 people over

00:48:02.000 the course

00:48:02.440 of their

00:48:02.700 lifetimes

00:48:03.360 who are

00:48:03.640 coming here

00:48:04.240 on low

00:48:04.720 wages

00:48:05.200 are likely

00:48:05.900 to take

00:48:06.340 more

00:48:06.740 in pensions

00:48:07.400 and health

00:48:07.760 care

00:48:07.960 and everything

00:48:08.280 else

00:48:08.580 and they

00:48:08.840 pay into

00:48:09.220 the exchequer

00:48:09.840 I don't even

00:48:10.420 think that's

00:48:10.820 the problem

00:48:11.200 but let me

00:48:12.020 ask you

00:48:12.660 a question

00:48:12.780 let's say

00:48:13.440 that we

00:48:13.780 agree that

00:48:14.260 there would

00:48:14.540 be a short

00:48:15.040 term pain

00:48:15.540 associated

00:48:16.020 with it

00:48:16.380 I think

00:48:17.300 the politicians

00:48:17.840 are probably

00:48:18.380 right

00:48:18.860 that they

00:48:19.720 might not

00:48:20.080 get re-elected

00:48:21.160 if they

00:48:21.560 suddenly found

00:48:22.280 that they

00:48:22.720 were cutting

00:48:23.200 it

00:48:23.460 so what

00:48:23.920 let me

00:48:26.020 present you

00:48:26.900 with a

00:48:27.060 hypothesis

00:48:27.500 the prevalence

00:48:30.240 of low

00:48:30.920 wage

00:48:31.360 immigration

00:48:31.960 is part

00:48:32.980 of a

00:48:33.300 wider

00:48:33.620 phenomenon

00:48:34.220 in western

00:48:35.220 societies

00:48:35.940 of electorates

00:48:37.660 voters

00:48:38.280 effectively

00:48:38.900 who are

00:48:40.280 unable to

00:48:40.920 deal with

00:48:41.480 reality

00:48:42.060 the reality

00:48:43.520 being

00:48:43.920 the reality

00:48:44.460 being

00:48:44.920 the fundamental

00:48:46.760 way to

00:48:47.940 enjoy prosperity

00:48:49.240 and growth

00:48:50.480 and higher

00:48:51.980 living standards

00:48:52.760 is to defer

00:48:53.680 gratification

00:48:54.540 you have to

00:48:55.620 do it

00:48:56.000 all investment

00:48:58.240 is deferred

00:48:59.560 consumption

00:49:00.080 we could

00:49:01.320 if we

00:49:01.640 liked

00:49:02.040 eat

00:49:03.660 and make

00:49:05.420 merry

00:49:05.740 with the

00:49:06.040 money we

00:49:06.420 earn

00:49:06.640 but we'd

00:49:07.560 never be

00:49:07.940 able to

00:49:08.180 save or

00:49:08.580 invest

00:49:08.980 and therefore

00:49:09.840 we'd never

00:49:10.200 be able to

00:49:10.520 increase our

00:49:11.000 income

00:49:11.220 what is true

00:49:11.720 if you want

00:49:12.340 to be a

00:49:12.640 good podcaster

00:49:13.300 you have to

00:49:13.660 practice

00:49:14.020 I didn't

00:49:16.520 mention that

00:49:17.000 I was a

00:49:17.560 sportsman

00:49:18.220 for a long

00:49:18.600 time

00:49:18.760 did you know

00:49:19.100 that

00:49:19.320 I was a

00:49:20.900 British

00:49:21.100 table

00:49:21.440 tennis

00:49:21.680 for 10

00:49:22.280 years

00:49:22.480 that was

00:49:23.860 my life

00:49:24.360 until about

00:49:24.720 33

00:49:25.180 and you

00:49:26.100 practice

00:49:26.540 in order

00:49:27.200 to be able

00:49:27.740 to compete

00:49:28.180 well

00:49:28.440 or you

00:49:28.780 do your

00:49:29.100 homework

00:49:29.520 you have

00:49:29.980 to put

00:49:30.200 the iPad

00:49:30.560 away

00:49:30.940 the deferring

00:49:32.100 of gratification

00:49:32.660 is the

00:49:33.360 fundamental

00:49:34.020 ingredient

00:49:34.820 of growth

00:49:35.700 success

00:49:36.440 of all kinds

00:49:38.560 with a couple

00:49:39.200 of caveats

00:49:39.700 for the

00:49:39.980 pedants

00:49:40.320 but that's

00:49:40.840 basically

00:49:41.180 now our

00:49:43.980 ancestors

00:49:45.060 were willing

00:49:45.780 to defer

00:49:46.220 gratification

00:49:46.900 to create

00:49:47.320 growth

00:49:47.680 in a

00:49:48.920 remarkable

00:49:49.280 way

00:49:49.680 and

00:49:51.240 if you

00:49:52.320 look at

00:49:52.660 I mean

00:49:52.940 it's quite

00:49:53.640 technical

00:49:54.040 but if you

00:49:54.600 look over

00:49:55.040 the course

00:49:55.540 of the

00:49:55.780 middle

00:49:55.940 ages

00:49:56.300 the interest

00:49:57.000 rates

00:49:57.380 in England

00:49:58.080 fell

00:49:58.520 if the interest

00:50:00.640 rate needs to be

00:50:01.220 very high

00:50:01.760 for people

00:50:02.140 to save

00:50:02.580 they're a pretty

00:50:03.040 impatient bunch

00:50:03.860 do you see

00:50:04.620 what I mean

00:50:04.960 as it drops

00:50:06.100 you're really

00:50:06.500 seeing a more

00:50:07.080 patient society

00:50:08.140 a willingness

00:50:09.240 to wait

00:50:10.360 and of course

00:50:11.520 you benefit

00:50:12.020 from that

00:50:12.420 during your

00:50:12.840 own life

00:50:13.340 it's rational

00:50:13.960 just to make

00:50:15.280 it really

00:50:15.700 obvious to

00:50:16.180 people

00:50:16.420 I could have

00:50:17.420 chocolate here

00:50:18.140 and eat it

00:50:18.760 and scoff it

00:50:19.400 fantastic

00:50:19.920 I've optimised

00:50:20.740 my enjoyment

00:50:21.280 for that period

00:50:22.000 and I could do

00:50:22.680 the same

00:50:23.020 every day

00:50:23.580 optimising

00:50:24.320 for the

00:50:24.680 moment

00:50:25.040 but my

00:50:25.800 life

00:50:26.020 would be

00:50:26.220 a disaster

00:50:26.800 short term

00:50:27.760 optimisation

00:50:28.460 is a destroyer

00:50:29.560 of long term

00:50:30.160 value

00:50:30.580 the interest

00:50:31.660 rate is

00:50:32.020 dropping

00:50:32.420 dropped to

00:50:32.840 5%

00:50:33.480 in England

00:50:33.920 by 1500

00:50:34.720 this is a

00:50:35.940 society

00:50:36.340 unique in

00:50:37.040 the world

00:50:37.560 and this is

00:50:38.320 partly the

00:50:38.740 protestant

00:50:39.120 work ethic

00:50:39.720 the bourgeois

00:50:40.740 values of

00:50:41.400 prudence

00:50:41.960 and this is

00:50:42.940 laying the

00:50:43.540 groundwork

00:50:44.020 for the

00:50:44.260 industrial

00:50:44.620 revolution

00:50:45.160 the greatest

00:50:46.280 economic

00:50:46.840 singularity

00:50:47.600 in our

00:50:47.900 species

00:50:48.180 history

00:50:48.700 I think

00:50:50.400 this starts

00:50:50.840 to go

00:50:51.140 into

00:50:51.340 reverse

00:50:51.920 in

00:50:52.240 western

00:50:52.560 civilisation

00:50:53.320 in about

00:50:53.720 1970

00:50:54.520 1971

00:50:55.600 there's

00:50:56.040 the abandonment

00:50:56.540 of the

00:50:56.800 gold

00:50:57.020 standard

00:50:57.460 which

00:50:57.980 creates

00:50:58.480 certain

00:50:58.780 types

00:50:59.060 of

00:50:59.220 constraints

00:50:59.780 on what

00:51:00.300 governments

00:51:00.700 can do

00:51:01.220 and what

00:51:02.000 happens

00:51:02.340 from then

00:51:02.720 on

00:51:02.940 fiscal

00:51:03.880 deficits

00:51:04.400 isn't

00:51:04.720 the deficit

00:51:05.140 wonderful

00:51:05.580 in the

00:51:05.860 here and

00:51:06.120 now

00:51:06.320 spend

00:51:07.080 more

00:51:07.300 than

00:51:07.440 you're

00:51:07.620 earning

00:51:07.880 as a

00:51:08.140 government

00:51:08.400 right

00:51:09.140 and you

00:51:10.540 can have

00:51:10.960 more

00:51:11.140 consumption

00:51:11.580 in the

00:51:11.860 here and

00:51:12.120 now

00:51:12.400 but you

00:51:13.180 do that

00:51:13.500 every year

00:51:13.880 what happens

00:51:14.360 to the

00:51:14.680 debt

00:51:14.960 keeps

00:51:15.500 going up

00:51:16.040 and then

00:51:16.540 you have

00:51:16.740 to start

00:51:17.020 paying

00:51:17.260 interest

00:51:17.620 on

00:51:17.800 the

00:51:17.920 debt

00:51:18.140 this

00:51:18.800 is

00:51:18.940 where

00:51:19.080 we've

00:51:19.300 got

00:51:19.460 to

00:51:19.660 since

00:51:20.340 19

00:51:20.640 between

00:51:21.240 I don't

00:51:22.340 know

00:51:22.500 300

00:51:22.840 years

00:51:23.300 up to

00:51:23.580 1970

00:51:24.240 the

00:51:25.140 British

00:51:25.460 state

00:51:25.880 did not

00:51:26.360 run a

00:51:26.700 deficit

00:51:27.060 outside

00:51:27.500 a

00:51:27.760 major

00:51:27.980 war

00:51:28.280 since

00:51:29.220 1970

00:51:29.860 we've

00:51:30.220 run

00:51:30.400 deficits

00:51:30.980 every

00:51:31.400 year

00:51:31.640 bar

00:51:31.860 four

00:51:32.220 America

00:51:33.040 every

00:51:33.380 year

00:51:33.580 bar

00:51:33.820 five

00:51:34.340 France

00:51:35.100 has run

00:51:35.360 a

00:51:35.480 deficit

00:51:35.720 every

00:51:36.060 year

00:51:36.280 since

00:51:36.460 1974

00:51:37.200 this

00:51:37.940 is

00:51:38.080 a

00:51:38.260 civilizational

00:51:39.000 shift

00:51:39.380 of

00:51:39.620 massive

00:51:40.220 significance

00:51:41.040 not

00:51:42.040 just

00:51:42.260 that

00:51:42.500 monetary

00:51:43.060 discipline

00:51:43.540 has

00:51:43.740 gone

00:51:43.880 out

00:51:44.020 the

00:51:44.140 window

00:51:44.400 QE1

00:51:45.160 2

00:51:45.420 3

00:51:45.720 4

00:51:45.980 this

00:51:46.360 is

00:51:46.520 printing

00:51:46.920 money

00:51:47.280 to

00:51:47.500 sustain

00:51:47.860 consumption

00:51:48.380 in the

00:51:48.660 here

00:51:48.840 and

00:51:48.960 now

00:51:49.240 with

00:51:49.720 big

00:51:50.000 long-term

00:51:50.500 negative

00:51:51.240 consequences

00:51:52.000 for

00:51:52.420 capital

00:51:53.260 misallocation

00:51:54.140 asset

00:51:54.780 price

00:51:55.140 inflation

00:51:55.600 it's

00:51:56.180 at the

00:51:56.420 heart

00:51:56.660 of

00:51:56.800 inequality

00:51:57.320 but

00:51:57.920 why

00:51:58.100 are

00:51:58.180 they

00:51:58.300 doing

00:51:58.540 it

00:51:58.700 because

00:51:58.860 they

00:51:59.000 know

00:51:59.180 or

00:51:59.740 mass

00:52:00.360 immigration

00:52:00.960 have

00:52:02.120 all

00:52:02.300 of

00:52:02.380 these

00:52:02.500 people

00:52:02.780 come

00:52:03.060 in

00:52:03.200 now

00:52:03.480 it's

00:52:04.020 kind

00:52:04.200 of

00:52:04.280 like

00:52:04.460 an

00:52:04.580 opium

00:52:04.920 in

00:52:05.040 the

00:52:05.140 here

00:52:05.280 and

00:52:05.380 now

00:52:05.500 but

00:52:05.660 massive

00:52:06.180 long-term

00:52:06.680 problems

00:52:07.180 you

00:52:07.740 think

00:52:07.980 about

00:52:08.260 the

00:52:08.440 uptick

00:52:09.000 in

00:52:09.440 mental

00:52:09.820 health

00:52:10.080 diagnosis

00:52:10.620 might

00:52:11.340 be

00:52:11.500 lovely

00:52:11.740 to

00:52:11.980 get

00:52:12.160 a

00:52:12.480 diagnosis

00:52:13.080 now

00:52:13.460 to

00:52:13.680 make

00:52:13.960 sense

00:52:14.240 of

00:52:14.340 but

00:52:14.760 you

00:52:14.900 do

00:52:15.140 it

00:52:15.320 too

00:52:15.600 often

00:52:15.940 and

00:52:16.680 first

00:52:16.920 of

00:52:17.020 all

00:52:17.080 it

00:52:17.180 means

00:52:17.340 people

00:52:17.580 with

00:52:17.720 real

00:52:17.900 problems

00:52:18.220 don't

00:52:18.420 get

00:52:18.540 access

00:52:18.800 to

00:52:19.040 treatment

00:52:19.380 but

00:52:19.740 that

00:52:19.900 inflationary

00:52:20.680 phenomenon

00:52:21.140 devalues

00:52:22.160 the

00:52:23.720 terminology

00:52:24.220 that we

00:52:24.600 use

00:52:24.760 to

00:52:24.880 describe

00:52:25.320 mental

00:52:25.660 health

00:52:26.000 in

00:52:26.720 the

00:52:26.860 same

00:52:27.060 way

00:52:27.240 that

00:52:27.420 printing

00:52:27.720 money

00:52:28.100 creates

00:52:29.860 problems

00:52:30.240 for the

00:52:30.560 things

00:52:30.780 that are

00:52:31.000 denominated

00:52:31.600 in

00:52:31.820 fiat

00:52:32.060 currency

00:52:32.500 my

00:52:33.740 push

00:52:34.040 back

00:52:34.240 to

00:52:34.400 you

00:52:34.580 is

00:52:34.780 you

00:52:35.020 say

00:52:35.220 it's

00:52:35.360 a

00:52:35.460 liberal

00:52:35.660 failure

00:52:36.040 as

00:52:36.320 if

00:52:36.640 they

00:52:37.300 did

00:52:37.540 it

00:52:37.680 in

00:52:37.820 a

00:52:37.940 kind

00:52:38.140 of

00:52:38.260 a

00:52:38.400 fit

00:52:38.600 of

00:52:38.740 absence

00:52:39.100 of

00:52:39.340 mind

00:52:39.680 it

00:52:40.340 is

00:52:40.500 part

00:52:40.920 of

00:52:41.260 a

00:52:41.420 series

00:52:41.900 of

00:52:42.120 phenomena

00:52:42.540 that

00:52:43.080 I

00:52:43.260 ask

00:52:43.720 you

00:52:43.960 to

00:52:44.140 try

00:52:44.320 and

00:52:44.440 articulate

00:52:44.920 to

00:52:45.140 an

00:52:45.300 electorate

00:52:45.780 and

00:52:46.020 win

00:52:46.180 an

00:52:46.320 election

00:52:46.680 when

00:52:47.260 people

00:52:47.720 are

00:52:48.000 not

00:52:48.300 willing

00:52:48.680 to

00:52:49.000 vote

00:52:49.380 for

00:52:50.100 the

00:52:50.260 cuts

00:52:50.500 and

00:52:50.620 expenditure

00:52:51.080 that

00:52:51.280 we

00:52:51.400 need

00:52:51.560 to

00:52:51.660 get

00:52:51.800 on

00:52:51.920 top

00:52:52.100 of

00:52:52.220 debt

00:52:52.400 they're

00:52:52.620 not

00:52:52.760 willing

00:53:03.740 whatever

00:53:03.900 percent

00:53:04.200 and

00:53:04.520 the

00:53:05.160 Tories

00:53:05.460 are

00:53:05.600 killing

00:53:05.800 people

00:53:06.000 it

00:53:06.520 was

00:53:07.360 called

00:53:07.580 austerity

00:53:08.120 and

00:53:08.400 the

00:53:08.560 Tories

00:53:08.880 when

00:53:09.320 they

00:53:09.440 were

00:53:09.520 running

00:53:09.720 deficits

00:53:10.160 you

00:53:10.440 do

00:53:10.580 realize

00:53:10.960 that

00:53:11.140 across

00:53:11.360 this

00:53:11.560 whole

00:53:11.780 period

00:53:12.220 we

00:53:12.640 were

00:53:12.780 adding

00:53:13.060 to

00:53:13.280 the

00:53:13.400 debt

00:53:13.520 yes

00:53:13.780 that's

00:53:14.160 why

00:53:14.300 it's

00:53:14.460 over

00:53:14.640 100%

00:53:15.440 of

00:53:15.580 GDP

00:53:15.860 now

00:53:16.200 so

00:53:16.420 the

00:53:16.880 only

00:53:17.040 way

00:53:17.200 to

00:53:17.360 get

00:53:17.540 out

00:53:17.760 of

00:53:17.860 it

00:53:17.980 is

00:53:18.080 to

00:53:18.220 grow

00:53:18.600 and

00:53:19.380 your

00:53:19.720 argument

00:53:20.160 is

00:53:20.380 that's

00:53:20.640 why

00:53:20.780 they're

00:53:20.980 bringing

00:53:21.220 lots

00:53:21.480 of

00:53:21.580 people

00:53:21.800 in

00:53:22.020 no

00:53:22.460 it's

00:53:23.340 not

00:53:23.520 helping

00:53:33.740 it

00:53:34.000 and

00:53:34.180 the

00:53:34.320 problems

00:53:34.640 are

00:53:34.780 eating

00:53:35.080 us

00:53:35.340 now

00:53:35.640 our

00:53:36.200 problem

00:53:36.660 is

00:53:37.000 that

00:53:37.140 all

00:53:37.340 this

00:53:37.500 mass

00:53:37.780 immigration

00:53:38.360 has

00:53:38.580 led

00:53:38.720 to

00:53:38.840 the

00:53:38.980 backlash

00:53:39.440 our

00:53:39.720 infrastructure

00:53:40.220 is

00:53:40.440 overwhelmed

00:53:41.160 we

00:53:42.300 haven't

00:53:42.600 invested

00:53:42.880 in

00:53:43.000 nuclear

00:53:43.220 power

00:53:43.460 electricity

00:53:43.980 is

00:53:44.480 expensive

00:53:44.900 we're

00:53:45.380 now

00:53:45.580 paying

00:53:45.880 more

00:53:46.160 on

00:53:46.340 servicing

00:53:46.780 our

00:53:47.000 debt

00:53:47.180 than

00:53:47.320 we

00:53:47.420 do

00:53:47.540 on

00:53:47.640 education

00:53:48.180 America

00:53:49.680 is

00:53:50.080 in

00:53:50.200 an

00:53:50.380 interesting

00:53:50.920 position

00:53:51.380 because

00:53:51.580 it's

00:53:51.740 still

00:53:51.920 growing

00:53:52.300 it

00:53:52.480 has

00:53:52.560 that

00:53:52.700 wonderful

00:53:53.100 dynamism

00:53:53.760 and

00:53:53.920 entrepreneurial

00:53:54.240 spirit

00:53:54.920 but

00:53:55.400 its

00:53:55.560 debt

00:53:55.840 is

00:53:56.040 very

00:53:56.420 high

00:53:57.120 and

00:53:57.700 growing

00:53:58.140 Trump

00:53:59.120 will

00:53:59.460 add

00:53:59.700 according

00:54:00.120 to

00:54:00.280 one

00:54:00.460 estimate

00:54:00.760 the

00:54:00.980 most

00:54:02.660 interesting

00:54:03.160 part

00:54:03.480 of

00:54:03.600 the

00:54:03.720 Trump

00:54:04.020 second

00:54:04.800 term

00:54:05.140 is

00:54:05.260 what

00:54:05.400 happens

00:54:05.700 to

00:54:05.860 the

00:54:06.000 debt

00:54:06.280 the

00:54:06.960 independent

00:54:07.800 congressional

00:54:08.240 budget

00:54:08.640 office

00:54:08.960 says

00:54:09.160 an

00:54:09.300 extra

00:54:09.660 7.5

00:54:10.640 trillion

00:54:10.960 added

00:54:11.240 to

00:54:11.400 the

00:54:11.520 debt

00:54:11.720 this

00:54:12.860 is

00:54:13.000 an

00:54:13.120 enormous

00:54:13.760 tax

00:54:14.840 cuts

00:54:15.180 he

00:54:15.600 also

00:54:15.780 added

00:54:15.980 to

00:54:16.140 the

00:54:16.240 debt

00:54:16.400 in

00:54:16.500 his

00:54:16.620 first

00:54:16.880 term

00:54:17.220 this

00:54:17.900 is

00:54:18.020 again

00:54:18.320 on

00:54:18.480 the

00:54:18.620 never

00:54:18.860 never

00:54:19.220 our

00:54:20.720 ancestors

00:54:21.520 made

00:54:22.540 sacrifices

00:54:23.220 to make

00:54:23.920 sure

00:54:24.080 their

00:54:24.340 lives

00:54:24.620 were

00:54:24.780 better

00:54:24.960 when

00:54:25.140 they

00:54:25.280 got

00:54:27.700 fantastic

00:54:29.200 opportunities

00:54:29.780 we

00:54:30.040 are

00:54:30.200 doing

00:54:30.380 the

00:54:30.540 opposite

00:54:30.840 you

00:54:31.320 talk

00:54:31.540 about

00:54:31.780 racism

00:54:32.300 the

00:54:34.220 greatest

00:54:34.580 discrimination

00:54:35.140 happening

00:54:35.740 in the

00:54:36.000 western

00:54:36.220 civilization

00:54:36.820 today

00:54:37.360 by far

00:54:38.380 is the

00:54:39.180 discrimination

00:54:39.620 against

00:54:40.120 the

00:54:40.300 future

00:54:40.640 and

00:54:42.580 to

00:54:43.560 me

00:54:43.820 a large

00:54:44.380 part

00:54:44.740 of

00:54:44.880 this

00:54:45.120 is

00:54:45.380 because

00:54:45.800 we

00:54:46.820 don't

00:54:47.260 want

00:54:47.520 to

00:54:47.700 be

00:54:47.840 uncomfortable

00:54:48.400 our

00:54:49.620 entire

00:54:50.320 society

00:54:51.580 now

00:54:52.100 is about

00:54:52.560 seeking

00:54:52.940 comfort

00:54:53.600 seeking

00:54:54.320 comfort

00:54:54.940 in the

00:54:55.720 moment

00:54:56.220 and not

00:54:57.260 caring

00:54:57.720 or not

00:54:58.500 thinking

00:54:58.860 about

00:54:59.180 what

00:54:59.440 happens

00:55:00.000 5

00:55:00.600 10

00:55:00.940 20

00:55:01.420 30

00:55:01.760 years

00:55:02.120 down

00:55:02.300 the

00:55:02.460 line

00:55:02.720 as

00:55:03.220 long

00:55:03.460 as

00:55:03.660 I

00:55:04.000 am

00:55:04.200 not

00:55:04.660 experiencing

00:55:05.540 discomfort

00:55:06.280 at

00:55:06.880 this

00:55:07.280 particular

00:55:07.820 instance

00:55:08.520 that's

00:55:08.780 right

00:55:08.980 everything

00:55:10.080 every

00:55:10.600 problem

00:55:11.040 is like

00:55:11.480 this

00:55:11.680 I

00:55:11.800 think

00:55:11.940 that's

00:55:12.140 right

00:55:12.300 look

00:55:12.520 at

00:55:12.620 the

00:55:12.720 opium

00:55:13.080 epidemic

00:55:13.720 you

00:55:14.480 know

00:55:14.600 giving

00:55:15.060 these

00:55:15.380 opioids

00:55:16.120 for

00:55:16.520 back

00:55:16.780 pain

00:55:17.080 brilliant

00:55:17.560 in the

00:55:17.880 here

00:55:18.040 and

00:55:18.160 now

00:55:18.420 what

00:55:18.940 about

00:55:19.120 the

00:55:19.260 long

00:55:19.440 term

00:55:19.600 consequences

00:55:20.220 what

00:55:20.440 about

00:55:20.640 these

00:55:20.900 drugs

00:55:21.180 for

00:55:21.400 mental

00:55:21.620 health

00:55:21.840 we're

00:55:21.980 giving

00:55:22.100 to

00:55:22.260 children

00:55:22.500 I

00:55:22.720 don't

00:55:22.880 know

00:55:23.020 what

00:55:23.100 the

00:55:23.200 long

00:55:23.360 term

00:55:23.500 consequence

00:55:23.960 is

00:55:24.240 going

00:55:24.380 to

00:55:24.440 be

00:55:24.660 of

00:55:25.100 some

00:55:25.280 of

00:55:25.380 this

00:55:25.560 almost

00:55:26.800 all

00:55:27.160 decisions

00:55:27.620 we make

00:55:27.960 even

00:55:28.200 the

00:55:28.360 empirical

00:55:28.760 ones

00:55:29.140 have

00:55:29.360 a

00:55:29.520 long

00:55:30.020 and

00:55:30.220 short

00:55:30.460 term

00:55:30.800 component

00:55:31.640 will

00:55:32.840 giving

00:55:33.200 you

00:55:33.360 the

00:55:33.480 headache

00:55:33.740 tablet

00:55:34.040 now

00:55:34.560 and

00:55:34.820 every

00:55:35.040 day

00:55:35.280 for

00:55:35.440 your

00:55:35.560 headache

00:55:35.860 will

00:55:36.120 that

00:55:36.220 have

00:55:36.340 an

00:55:36.440 effect

00:55:36.660 on

00:55:36.800 your

00:55:36.920 liver

00:55:37.080 in

00:55:37.260 10

00:55:37.420 years

00:55:37.600 if

00:55:38.080 the

00:55:38.280 focus

00:55:38.660 of

00:55:38.880 society

00:55:39.500 as

00:55:40.560 you

00:55:40.740 say

00:55:40.940 is

00:55:41.080 honed

00:55:41.480 in

00:55:41.600 on

00:55:41.740 comfort

00:55:42.100 in

00:55:42.300 the

00:55:42.400 here

00:55:42.620 and

00:55:52.260 sociological

00:55:53.020 analysis

00:55:53.480 I

00:55:53.720 think

00:55:53.880 much

00:55:54.140 to

00:55:54.280 our

00:55:54.420 detriment

00:55:54.780 and

00:55:55.480 why

00:55:55.680 has

00:55:55.800 this

00:55:55.920 happened

00:55:56.260 this

00:55:57.700 shift

00:55:58.080 yes

00:55:58.460 well

00:55:59.740 I've

00:56:00.080 got

00:56:00.200 a

00:56:00.300 number

00:56:00.460 of

00:56:00.620 thoughts

00:56:00.840 so

00:56:01.040 one

00:56:01.300 it's

00:56:02.240 very

00:56:02.380 difficult

00:56:02.680 to

00:56:02.920 establish

00:56:03.340 the

00:56:03.660 mechanism

00:56:04.380 so

00:56:05.700 some

00:56:06.040 might

00:56:06.380 say

00:56:06.780 that

00:56:07.680 the

00:56:07.820 abandonment

00:56:08.260 of the

00:56:08.460 gold

00:56:08.620 standard

00:56:08.940 was

00:56:09.260 very

00:56:09.600 important

00:56:10.040 the

00:56:11.840 gold

00:56:12.140 standard

00:56:12.700 I'm

00:56:14.180 not an

00:56:14.420 expert

00:56:14.660 in

00:56:14.800 monetary

00:56:15.020 economics

00:56:15.500 but

00:56:15.820 effectively

00:56:16.380 the

00:56:17.620 convertibility

00:56:18.300 of a

00:56:18.760 currency

00:56:19.300 to

00:56:19.540 gold

00:56:19.860 means

00:56:20.160 you

00:56:20.980 can't

00:56:21.540 as it

00:56:22.360 were

00:56:22.480 print

00:56:22.760 money

00:56:23.040 you

00:56:23.220 can't

00:56:23.460 magic

00:56:23.760 more

00:56:24.020 of it

00:56:24.220 you

00:56:24.360 can't

00:56:24.600 magic

00:56:24.780 exactly

00:56:25.140 it's

00:56:25.380 kind

00:56:25.600 of

00:56:25.700 like

00:56:25.860 a

00:56:26.020 discipline

00:56:26.480 has

00:56:26.860 certain

00:56:27.140 downsides

00:56:27.740 so that

00:56:28.520 might be

00:56:28.820 part of

00:56:29.120 it

00:56:29.260 another

00:56:29.800 explanation

00:56:30.360 credit cards

00:56:31.380 started

00:56:31.660 coming in

00:56:32.200 the first

00:56:32.760 access

00:56:33.620 credit card

00:56:34.320 do you know

00:56:34.580 what its

00:56:34.960 slogan

00:56:35.620 was

00:56:35.980 access

00:56:37.240 takes

00:56:38.240 the

00:56:38.600 waiting

00:56:39.440 out of

00:56:40.360 wanting

00:56:40.800 you don't

00:56:42.120 have to

00:56:42.360 wait

00:56:42.500 anymore

00:56:42.800 have it

00:56:43.120 now

00:56:43.340 and that

00:56:44.780 may have

00:56:45.080 been

00:56:45.260 part

00:56:45.480 I

00:56:45.680 think

00:56:45.880 this

00:56:46.100 is

00:56:46.200 more

00:56:46.360 a

00:56:46.500 symptom

00:56:46.720 my

00:56:47.240 fundamental

00:56:47.800 explanation

00:56:48.400 is

00:56:48.700 the

00:56:48.840 same

00:56:49.100 is

00:56:49.280 what

00:56:49.500 caused

00:56:49.940 the

00:56:50.140 fall

00:56:50.360 of

00:56:50.480 many

00:56:50.700 ancient

00:56:51.060 civilizations

00:56:51.780 which is

00:56:52.620 complacency

00:56:53.320 you start

00:56:56.000 to feel

00:56:57.000 entitled

00:56:57.560 to what

00:56:58.640 you have

00:56:59.240 and you

00:56:59.960 stop

00:57:00.180 working

00:57:00.660 to sustain

00:57:01.700 its

00:57:01.900 trajectory

00:57:02.420 happened

00:57:02.980 in

00:57:03.180 Rome

00:57:03.440 Rome

00:57:04.700 was

00:57:06.000 hungry

00:57:06.500 and

00:57:07.200 disciplined

00:57:07.780 in its

00:57:08.440 early

00:57:08.720 period

00:57:09.300 and it

00:57:09.820 conquered

00:57:10.180 most of

00:57:10.760 the

00:57:11.760 Mediterranean

00:57:12.360 base

00:57:12.800 and most

00:57:13.080 of the

00:57:13.280 continent

00:57:13.620 a big

00:57:14.740 and successful

00:57:15.520 empire

00:57:16.000 and then

00:57:16.900 it wanted

00:57:17.180 to have

00:57:17.460 all the

00:57:17.740 blessings

00:57:18.040 of success

00:57:18.820 without

00:57:19.500 incurring

00:57:20.020 some of

00:57:20.340 the

00:57:20.520 costs

00:57:21.280 and

00:57:23.160 it

00:57:25.120 started

00:57:25.400 debasing

00:57:25.840 the

00:57:26.040 currency

00:57:26.420 so it

00:57:27.820 used to

00:57:28.120 be

00:57:28.280 the

00:57:28.460 denarius

00:57:28.860 for example

00:57:29.420 100%

00:57:30.140 silver

00:57:30.580 they just

00:57:31.200 kept

00:57:31.460 cutting it

00:57:31.960 and they

00:57:32.800 thought

00:57:33.020 fantastic

00:57:33.560 it's

00:57:33.780 keeping

00:57:33.980 the party

00:57:34.400 going

00:57:34.580 bread

00:57:34.800 in

00:57:34.960 circuses

00:57:35.580 the

00:57:36.040 dole

00:57:36.440 started

00:57:37.200 to include

00:57:37.700 olive oil

00:57:38.360 and wine

00:57:38.920 trying to

00:57:39.820 keep people

00:57:40.300 happy in

00:57:40.780 the here

00:57:41.040 and now

00:57:41.500 so we

00:57:42.420 don't

00:57:42.620 have

00:57:42.780 but it

00:57:43.300 completely

00:57:43.920 destroys

00:57:44.640 chips

00:57:45.120 away

00:57:45.620 at the

00:57:46.860 civilization

00:57:47.380 we are

00:57:48.700 in this

00:57:49.100 period

00:57:49.500 we're

00:57:49.780 in this

00:57:50.000 I've

00:57:50.440 tried to

00:57:50.760 write

00:57:50.960 this

00:57:51.100 it's

00:57:51.280 difficult

00:57:51.620 I've

00:57:52.200 tried

00:57:52.400 to get

00:57:52.700 this

00:57:52.860 across

00:57:53.160 and what's

00:57:53.660 interesting

00:57:54.020 I mean

00:57:54.320 you look

00:57:55.740 at some

00:57:55.960 of the

00:57:56.080 historical

00:57:56.440 presidents

00:57:56.920 I think

00:57:57.300 the

00:57:57.440 apposite

00:57:57.900 caliphate

00:57:58.640 at the

00:58:00.000 very moment

00:58:00.680 that it

00:58:00.940 was going

00:58:01.300 bankrupt

00:58:01.800 its citizens

00:58:02.560 demanded

00:58:03.620 the shorter

00:58:04.080 working

00:58:04.460 week

00:58:05.200 and we're

00:58:06.860 getting this

00:58:07.260 here

00:58:07.420 quiet quitting

00:58:08.100 have you

00:58:08.320 heard of

00:58:08.560 this

00:58:08.700 phenomenon

00:58:09.040 yes

00:58:09.440 doing the

00:58:12.240 bare

00:58:12.440 minimum

00:58:12.820 yeah

00:58:13.320 I mean

00:58:13.860 what do we

00:58:14.480 think the

00:58:14.800 consequences

00:58:15.380 of that

00:58:15.720 as you

00:58:15.980 scale it

00:58:16.360 through a

00:58:16.620 society

00:58:16.940 we get

00:58:17.300 outcompeted

00:58:17.940 competition

00:58:18.340 is a

00:58:18.820 fundamental

00:58:19.100 part of

00:58:19.880 all life

00:58:21.620 and to the

00:58:23.280 extent that the

00:58:23.920 west gets

00:58:24.360 outcompeted by

00:58:25.220 people who are

00:58:25.640 willing to work

00:58:26.220 harder and have

00:58:26.840 a longer

00:58:27.200 horizon

00:58:27.900 you know

00:58:29.860 it happened to

00:58:30.500 Rome

00:58:30.720 they collapsed

00:58:31.400 it's very much

00:58:32.780 like addiction

00:58:33.400 because

00:58:34.160 addicts talk

00:58:35.160 about rock

00:58:35.660 bottom

00:58:36.020 which is the

00:58:37.180 moment where

00:58:37.800 you realize

00:58:38.500 that this

00:58:39.500 way of living

00:58:39.960 is fundamentally

00:58:40.600 unsustainable

00:58:41.500 and that you

00:58:41.940 will die

00:58:42.480 but if you

00:58:43.520 are constantly

00:58:44.320 keeping people

00:58:45.180 afloat

00:58:45.760 and they never

00:58:47.580 have to face

00:58:48.220 the consequences

00:58:48.820 of their

00:58:49.220 actions

00:58:49.580 and they can

00:58:50.200 just coast

00:58:51.420 along

00:58:51.920 then you're

00:58:52.860 never going to

00:58:53.200 allow them to

00:58:53.680 reach rock

00:58:54.080 bottom

00:58:54.380 they're never

00:58:55.120 going to have

00:58:55.600 that moment

00:58:56.120 where they

00:58:56.500 actually wake

00:58:57.320 up and realize

00:58:58.060 that things

00:58:58.540 need to change

00:58:59.360 and this is

00:58:59.940 existential

00:59:00.920 so they'll just

00:59:02.200 bumble along

00:59:02.780 until the end

00:59:03.420 I saw it in

00:59:04.160 sports

00:59:04.540 so when I was

00:59:05.460 at sports day

00:59:06.120 there were

00:59:06.500 winners and

00:59:06.960 losers

00:59:07.280 at my son's

00:59:09.020 primary school

00:59:09.660 they all

00:59:10.120 seem to win

00:59:11.280 so of course

00:59:12.340 you never learn

00:59:13.220 what it means

00:59:13.780 to lose

00:59:14.340 and you don't

00:59:14.740 develop resilience

00:59:15.500 and recognize

00:59:16.500 that if you want

00:59:17.140 to get better

00:59:17.560 you need to

00:59:17.980 work a bit

00:59:18.420 harder

00:59:18.660 grade inflation

00:59:20.320 think about that

00:59:21.680 it's a very

00:59:22.360 pervasive phenomenon

00:59:23.260 across the western

00:59:24.060 world

00:59:24.560 in other words

00:59:25.200 you give kid

00:59:25.980 give them all

00:59:26.640 I'm simplifying

00:59:28.040 a bit

00:59:28.300 give them all

00:59:28.720 an A

00:59:29.040 fantastic

00:59:29.720 they're going

00:59:30.140 to feel

00:59:30.400 really wonderful

00:59:30.980 self esteem

00:59:31.560 that's a disaster

00:59:32.760 in the long term

00:59:34.760 it totally

00:59:35.660 devalues the

00:59:36.460 certificate

00:59:36.800 with somebody

00:59:37.120 really gone

00:59:37.760 an A

00:59:38.060 but where

00:59:38.860 are people

00:59:39.320 going to

00:59:39.680 hit the

00:59:40.620 realisation

00:59:41.380 that it's

00:59:42.480 by failing

00:59:43.140 that I

00:59:43.900 learned that

00:59:44.340 I needed

00:59:44.660 to do

00:59:44.980 something

00:59:45.240 differently

00:59:45.620 to get

00:59:45.960 better

00:59:46.240 this is

00:59:47.840 I think

00:59:48.500 you've nailed

00:59:49.060 it

00:59:49.300 suffering

00:59:49.860 I don't

00:59:50.440 want

00:59:50.560 a bit

00:59:52.160 of suffering

00:59:52.600 taking a bit

00:59:53.160 of a hair

00:59:53.460 not eating

00:59:53.960 the chocolate

00:59:54.460 is that

00:59:54.820 suffering

00:59:55.160 a bit

00:59:55.580 but my

00:59:56.300 god

00:59:56.520 if you're

00:59:56.780 willing

00:59:56.920 to do

00:59:57.200 bits

00:59:57.400 of suffering

00:59:57.760 you have

00:59:58.060 an expanded

00:59:58.840 enlarged

00:59:59.780 capacity

01:00:00.340 as a human

01:00:00.920 being

01:00:01.280 and we

01:00:02.440 have

01:00:02.660 lost that

01:00:04.400 wisdom

01:00:04.640 we're a bit

01:00:05.720 too nice

01:00:06.460 in a very

01:00:07.700 destructive

01:00:08.240 way

01:00:08.740 agreed

01:00:09.600 so what's

01:00:10.500 your prescription

01:00:11.080 Dr Seed

01:00:11.780 so I think

01:00:13.820 one thing that

01:00:16.860 might hit us

01:00:17.500 is a bond

01:00:18.000 crisis

01:00:18.540 in other words

01:00:20.520 the government

01:00:21.080 debt that is

01:00:21.760 sold into the

01:00:22.420 markets

01:00:22.920 I mean

01:00:23.540 it's already

01:00:23.840 going up

01:00:25.900 in this country

01:00:27.020 as you know

01:00:27.560 and that

01:00:30.400 could be

01:00:30.800 something that

01:00:31.380 really focuses

01:00:32.600 our minds

01:00:33.380 that's

01:00:33.740 effectively

01:00:34.140 when lenders

01:00:35.200 don't believe

01:00:35.840 that you're

01:00:36.340 actually going

01:00:36.740 to pay back

01:00:37.180 that's right

01:00:37.620 they don't

01:00:38.200 think you're

01:00:38.440 credit worthy

01:00:38.900 what I would

01:00:42.600 what should we

01:00:43.780 do is what I'm

01:00:44.400 asking as a

01:00:45.240 civilization

01:00:45.840 if we become

01:00:47.160 complacent

01:00:48.080 what do we do

01:00:48.580 I ask you the

01:00:49.120 question do you

01:00:49.940 think in

01:00:50.840 Rome with the

01:00:52.280 bread and circuses

01:00:53.300 the expanded

01:00:54.080 dole effectively

01:00:55.820 money printing

01:00:56.580 it's keeping

01:00:58.560 the party going

01:00:59.380 but effectively

01:01:00.060 it's going to

01:01:00.740 end it's going

01:01:01.220 to collapse

01:01:01.620 and it's going

01:01:01.980 to be terrible

01:01:02.640 who is going

01:01:03.960 to get this

01:01:05.060 message across

01:01:05.860 I think the

01:01:06.800 only way is to

01:01:07.660 articulate and

01:01:08.860 to convince

01:01:09.400 enough people

01:01:09.960 in a democracy

01:01:10.600 I say I've

01:01:12.260 written a few

01:01:12.580 columns on

01:01:13.240 this theme

01:01:14.000 and I

01:01:14.760 definitely sense

01:01:15.840 people agree

01:01:16.460 you I think

01:01:17.160 agree with the

01:01:17.760 analysis

01:01:18.140 this is why

01:01:19.240 so would you

01:01:19.780 accept that

01:01:20.400 it's a bit

01:01:21.000 you may disagree

01:01:22.220 with it but

01:01:22.620 it's a bit

01:01:22.960 unfair to say

01:01:23.560 the politicians

01:01:24.160 were lazy on

01:01:24.960 immigration when

01:01:25.620 they were also

01:01:26.140 their laziness

01:01:27.360 reflected the

01:01:28.500 democratic wishes

01:01:29.260 of the population

01:01:30.140 on the

01:01:31.960 well actually

01:01:33.560 that's not quite

01:01:34.100 fair is it

01:01:34.620 you must speak

01:01:35.500 to a lot of

01:01:36.060 politicians

01:01:36.520 as I sometimes

01:01:37.820 do

01:01:37.880 I don't think

01:01:38.200 what I said

01:01:38.560 was right

01:01:38.960 actually

01:01:39.260 I think

01:01:41.420 that's not

01:01:41.760 quite right

01:01:42.120 I think

01:01:42.340 people were

01:01:42.920 clearly saying

01:01:44.020 we want

01:01:44.720 immigration to

01:01:45.340 come down

01:01:45.900 they were less

01:01:46.940 keen on some

01:01:47.660 of the other

01:01:48.000 things

01:01:48.440 depends which

01:01:50.060 politicians

01:01:50.580 we're talking

01:01:51.040 about

01:01:51.200 so the

01:01:51.540 Blair

01:01:51.740 government

01:01:52.140 talked about

01:01:52.720 rubbing

01:01:53.020 the rights

01:01:53.440 nose

01:01:53.680 and diversity

01:01:54.340 you remember

01:01:54.920 that

01:01:55.140 the Andrew

01:01:55.520 Nether memo

01:01:56.300 that got

01:01:56.860 leaked

01:01:57.180 they wanted

01:01:58.060 immigration

01:01:58.560 for ideological

01:01:59.200 reasons as well

01:02:00.100 as economic

01:02:00.560 reasons

01:02:01.540 is this the

01:02:02.020 one that

01:02:02.480 the civil

01:02:02.980 servant

01:02:03.400 yes

01:02:04.020 has that

01:02:04.780 been very

01:02:05.120 yeah that's

01:02:05.620 interesting

01:02:05.920 that's been

01:02:06.720 corroborated

01:02:07.440 there was

01:02:07.840 look it doesn't

01:02:08.560 mean that it

01:02:08.940 was Blair's

01:02:09.660 policy but

01:02:10.520 generally speaking

01:02:11.560 on the centre

01:02:12.520 left at that

01:02:13.100 time there was

01:02:13.660 the view that

01:02:14.440 more you know

01:02:15.500 just let's have

01:02:16.360 more people

01:02:16.840 that's great

01:02:17.540 isn't it

01:02:17.920 you know

01:02:18.320 people are

01:02:19.360 great

01:02:19.680 everyone's the

01:02:20.500 same

01:02:20.740 everyone's equal

01:02:21.380 there's no

01:02:21.740 difference between

01:02:22.300 cultures

01:02:22.740 so if we

01:02:23.440 have more

01:02:23.740 people we

01:02:24.120 can grow

01:02:24.460 faster we

01:02:25.020 can boost

01:02:25.640 our economy

01:02:26.140 blah blah blah

01:02:26.620 but the

01:02:29.180 point I was

01:02:29.600 going to make

01:02:30.020 to you is

01:02:30.520 that when I

01:02:31.720 speak to

01:02:32.100 politicians

01:02:32.580 as I'm

01:02:33.860 sure you

01:02:34.160 do I'm

01:02:35.120 always shocked

01:02:35.720 by how

01:02:36.160 well-meaning

01:02:36.660 most of them

01:02:37.200 are and how

01:02:37.900 well-intentioned

01:02:38.580 most of them

01:02:38.960 actually are

01:02:39.480 and most of

01:02:40.660 them will say

01:02:41.280 well actually I'm

01:02:42.220 in this to try

01:02:42.940 and improve

01:02:43.440 my country

01:02:43.960 and I actually

01:02:44.460 genuinely believe

01:02:45.180 them when I

01:02:45.560 talk to them

01:02:45.920 because I can

01:02:46.400 see that they

01:02:46.840 mean it

01:02:47.220 the problem

01:02:49.200 is that too

01:02:51.060 many politicians

01:02:51.760 care about being

01:02:52.640 re-elected and

01:02:53.840 not enough about

01:02:54.580 the reason they

01:02:55.260 say they got

01:02:55.920 into politics

01:02:56.600 they and I

01:02:57.960 said this in a

01:02:58.700 speech that I

01:02:59.180 gave last year

01:02:59.880 at a conference

01:03:00.400 they didn't get

01:03:01.760 into politics to

01:03:02.660 get re-elected

01:03:03.460 they got into

01:03:04.120 politics to do

01:03:04.880 things right

01:03:05.660 and so if if

01:03:07.200 enough people

01:03:07.780 went out and

01:03:08.680 actually yes you

01:03:09.840 might end up

01:03:10.420 falling on your

01:03:11.020 sword but did

01:03:11.960 something to

01:03:12.840 actually move the

01:03:13.720 country in a

01:03:14.420 certain direction

01:03:15.020 and said the

01:03:16.000 things that you

01:03:16.580 were saying

01:03:17.060 about you

01:03:18.440 know this

01:03:19.020 but would

01:03:19.740 they get

01:03:20.060 elected

01:03:20.460 I think in

01:03:22.180 the current

01:03:22.520 climate they

01:03:23.400 definitely would

01:03:24.260 they definitely

01:03:25.100 would if you

01:03:26.480 if you talked

01:03:27.320 about the fact

01:03:28.040 that we're

01:03:28.480 living way

01:03:29.020 beyond our

01:03:29.560 means way

01:03:30.680 beyond our

01:03:31.280 means you

01:03:32.000 think most

01:03:32.440 British people

01:03:32.880 don't know

01:03:33.280 that they

01:03:33.640 do but

01:03:34.100 remember what

01:03:34.820 the other

01:03:35.140 side will say

01:03:35.640 no you're

01:03:36.040 wrong they'll

01:03:36.440 say something

01:03:36.880 like this

01:03:37.480 no no no

01:03:38.420 what will

01:03:38.800 happen is if

01:03:39.360 we just spend

01:03:40.160 more money

01:03:40.660 the growth

01:03:41.220 will pay for

01:03:41.760 it Trump

01:03:42.140 said during

01:03:42.660 the campaign

01:03:43.180 don't worry

01:03:43.620 our tax cuts

01:03:44.200 will pay for

01:03:44.580 themselves because

01:03:45.120 we're going to

01:03:45.440 go gangbuster

01:03:46.160 he didn't use

01:03:46.740 that word

01:03:47.200 said the same

01:03:47.840 in his first

01:03:48.320 time since

01:03:49.060 1970 all

01:03:50.120 politicians have

01:03:50.980 made an

01:03:51.300 empirical claim

01:03:52.280 that we can

01:03:53.000 borrow more

01:03:53.740 and reduce the

01:03:54.640 debt because

01:03:56.280 growth will pay

01:03:56.940 for it and

01:03:58.220 they've effectively

01:03:58.860 been wrong for

01:03:59.680 50 years but

01:04:00.760 electorates are

01:04:01.260 still buying this

01:04:01.980 nonsense look at

01:04:03.840 look at look at

01:04:04.580 when when Gore

01:04:05.680 went against

01:04:06.200 when Gore went

01:04:07.380 against Bush you

01:04:08.600 know who was the

01:04:09.060 last president to run

01:04:09.820 a surplus in

01:04:10.440 America Clinton

01:04:11.420 that's partly

01:04:12.820 because of the

01:04:13.180 dot-com boom

01:04:14.080 and Gore

01:04:15.380 I'm going to

01:04:15.720 simplify a bit

01:04:16.420 went to the

01:04:16.860 electorate saying

01:04:17.360 yeah we're going

01:04:17.760 to pay that

01:04:18.220 down into our

01:04:18.920 debt reduce

01:04:19.900 it and Bush

01:04:21.320 said no no

01:04:21.740 we're going to

01:04:22.260 spend it

01:04:22.700 Bush won

01:04:23.420 that was a

01:04:24.900 very big message

01:04:25.780 to democratic

01:04:26.480 politicians

01:04:27.220 very different

01:04:27.940 Matthew

01:04:28.580 my goodness

01:04:29.700 happened every

01:04:30.180 who went on

01:04:33.060 a manifesto to

01:04:33.780 borrow more

01:04:34.300 and if you look

01:04:35.560 at each American

01:04:36.180 election the

01:04:36.760 congressional

01:04:37.120 budget office

01:04:37.780 it's often the

01:04:38.540 one that's willing

01:04:39.220 to say we're

01:04:39.920 going to go even

01:04:40.440 further into debt

01:04:41.100 but wins

01:04:41.640 at this last

01:04:42.700 election

01:04:43.160 Sunak was going

01:04:44.680 from a triple to

01:04:45.300 a quadruple lock

01:04:46.200 to bribe the

01:04:46.860 country

01:04:47.240 but that's the

01:04:47.820 two mainstream

01:04:48.340 parties

01:04:48.700 this is why

01:04:49.100 this is why

01:04:49.600 reform according

01:04:50.520 to some polls

01:04:51.120 is now number

01:04:51.680 one because

01:04:52.200 they're saying

01:04:52.680 let's cut

01:04:53.220 net zero

01:04:53.820 let's end net

01:04:54.540 zero

01:04:54.880 let's actually

01:04:55.980 take the

01:04:57.000 handbrake off

01:04:57.940 the economy

01:04:58.620 without necessarily

01:05:00.080 borrowing more

01:05:00.900 money

01:05:01.140 you don't

01:05:01.540 necessarily have

01:05:02.300 to increase

01:05:03.360 debt

01:05:03.900 you could just

01:05:04.860 stop

01:05:05.360 our energy

01:05:06.200 prices are four

01:05:06.920 times what they

01:05:07.540 are in America

01:05:08.060 but how would

01:05:08.540 we in order to

01:05:10.220 deal with that

01:05:10.640 we have to

01:05:10.940 spend

01:05:11.300 I do think

01:05:12.760 we need to

01:05:13.140 invest by the

01:05:13.840 way

01:05:14.100 but I would

01:05:16.960 love to see

01:05:17.740 the reform

01:05:18.580 I tell you

01:05:20.680 another thing

01:05:21.120 that could help

01:05:21.640 us a lot

01:05:22.460 is to change

01:05:23.600 the basis

01:05:23.980 of taxation

01:05:24.680 at the moment

01:05:25.960 at the moment

01:05:25.980 we tax

01:05:26.700 largely income

01:05:28.040 and productive

01:05:29.260 capital

01:05:29.760 I think we

01:05:30.880 should shift

01:05:31.380 our tax

01:05:31.840 system to

01:05:32.360 land

01:05:32.700 you can't

01:05:35.080 offshore land

01:05:35.900 you can't

01:05:36.660 take it out

01:05:37.040 of the country

01:05:37.520 I think the

01:05:39.300 value of

01:05:40.100 the unimproved

01:05:42.180 value of land

01:05:42.760 in this country

01:05:43.240 is over 7

01:05:43.860 trillion pounds

01:05:44.820 you start putting

01:05:45.740 a tax

01:05:46.160 sometimes called

01:05:46.800 a land value

01:05:47.460 tax

01:05:47.880 we'll be able

01:05:49.020 to cut taxes

01:05:49.920 on capital

01:05:51.380 and income

01:05:51.960 I think that

01:05:52.640 would be a big

01:05:53.060 game changer

01:05:53.640 for us

01:05:54.060 we do

01:05:54.720 you know

01:05:55.440 again I'm going

01:05:57.200 to use the

01:05:57.580 addiction metaphor

01:05:58.320 there comes a

01:05:59.540 point where you

01:06:00.120 have to wake up

01:06:00.960 and you talk to

01:06:02.160 the vast majority

01:06:02.860 of people

01:06:03.600 like I do

01:06:04.640 and people who

01:06:05.200 come up to me

01:06:05.760 when I'm walking

01:06:06.300 around in a coffee

01:06:07.140 shop wherever it

01:06:07.800 is and they want

01:06:08.300 to have a chat

01:06:08.840 every single

01:06:10.620 person I speak

01:06:11.720 to regardless

01:06:12.600 of background

01:06:13.320 race gender

01:06:14.320 whatever it may

01:06:14.980 be

01:06:15.220 they all know

01:06:16.660 that this country

01:06:17.320 isn't working

01:06:18.180 and this country

01:06:19.460 is on the

01:06:20.040 downward path

01:06:21.160 they wouldn't

01:06:21.980 be able to

01:06:22.480 articulate maybe

01:06:23.220 the reasons

01:06:23.820 why

01:06:24.400 but we can

01:06:25.600 all feel it

01:06:26.540 no one is

01:06:27.140 looking around

01:06:27.820 London now

01:06:28.640 or the UK

01:06:29.620 going you know

01:06:30.300 what this was

01:06:30.860 much better

01:06:31.400 than 20 years

01:06:32.500 ago

01:06:32.780 but they say

01:06:34.080 I think they

01:06:34.480 would say the

01:06:34.840 same in France

01:06:35.540 yeah

01:06:36.320 I think a lot

01:06:37.620 of people would

01:06:38.040 say in America

01:06:38.680 because a lot

01:06:39.960 of the growth

01:06:40.440 that they still

01:06:41.000 have is quite

01:06:41.660 unequally

01:06:42.260 distributed

01:06:43.860 but we haven't

01:06:46.480 talked about

01:06:46.820 some of the

01:06:47.100 other parts

01:06:47.360 I mean one

01:06:47.620 of the other

01:06:47.840 problems

01:06:48.040 capitalism

01:06:48.520 working is

01:06:49.180 because the

01:06:49.660 regulators have

01:06:50.340 captured the

01:06:50.820 the corporations

01:06:52.560 have captured

01:06:53.060 the politicians

01:06:53.700 the regulators

01:06:55.620 as well

01:06:56.200 and they want

01:06:56.860 to have

01:06:57.220 regulations

01:06:57.720 that protect

01:06:58.320 their market

01:06:59.520 positions

01:07:00.020 that's meaning

01:07:01.420 that capitalism

01:07:01.980 is not doing

01:07:02.620 what it needs

01:07:02.980 capitalism works

01:07:03.720 when companies

01:07:04.400 are going

01:07:04.620 bankrupt

01:07:05.080 these failures

01:07:06.640 are what

01:07:07.020 leave space

01:07:07.660 for you know

01:07:08.100 that shows

01:07:08.640 competition is

01:07:09.320 working

01:07:09.600 but that's

01:07:10.360 not happening

01:07:10.820 so much

01:07:11.240 anymore

01:07:11.580 the big

01:07:13.120 companies

01:07:13.440 are staying

01:07:13.800 ever longer

01:07:14.360 in the market

01:07:14.840 indices

01:07:15.260 most of the

01:07:16.180 politicians

01:07:16.640 go from

01:07:17.180 the Senate

01:07:18.580 or the House

01:07:19.060 of Representatives

01:07:19.600 into the

01:07:20.500 companies

01:07:20.740 that funded

01:07:21.120 their campaigns

01:07:21.800 that's a big

01:07:23.100 issue

01:07:23.400 another big

01:07:24.520 issue that we

01:07:25.060 haven't talked

01:07:25.500 about

01:07:25.620 I don't know

01:07:25.860 if you've

01:07:26.060 talked about

01:07:26.440 it

01:07:26.620 maybe the

01:07:27.660 biggest of

01:07:28.120 all is

01:07:28.460 existential

01:07:28.980 risk

01:07:29.560 politicians

01:07:30.480 you say

01:07:30.880 are ignoring

01:07:31.420 immigration

01:07:32.120 we have

01:07:33.460 democratized

01:07:34.240 the capacity

01:07:34.720 to destroy

01:07:35.260 our species

01:07:36.000 by bacteriological

01:07:38.320 warfare

01:07:39.360 you know

01:07:39.860 the Spanish

01:07:41.040 flu coding

01:07:42.400 has been

01:07:42.720 published on

01:07:43.200 the internet

01:07:43.700 six formers

01:07:44.760 can create

01:07:45.160 microbes

01:07:45.700 through

01:07:45.980 synthetic

01:07:46.560 biology

01:07:47.360 nuclear war

01:07:49.640 I think

01:07:50.000 is a risk

01:07:50.940 but AI

01:07:52.080 that will

01:07:53.140 democratize

01:07:53.820 the capacity

01:07:54.320 for fanatics

01:07:55.180 the small

01:07:55.640 minority

01:07:56.160 to potentially

01:07:56.740 blow us

01:07:57.220 all up

01:07:57.480 you ask

01:07:57.960 a politician

01:07:58.420 about that

01:07:58.960 they won't

01:07:59.260 have thought

01:07:59.540 about it

01:07:59.860 at all

01:08:00.420 the bacteriological

01:08:01.700 weapons convention

01:08:03.100 has a staff

01:08:03.760 of two

01:08:04.240 and an annual

01:08:04.780 budget

01:08:05.160 less than

01:08:05.560 an average

01:08:05.920 McDonald's

01:08:06.540 you talked

01:08:08.020 about denial

01:08:08.800 we're in

01:08:09.840 denial about

01:08:10.480 the fate

01:08:11.160 of our

01:08:11.680 civilization

01:08:12.680 in the sense

01:08:14.180 that we have

01:08:14.580 described

01:08:15.040 but we're in

01:08:16.160 denial about

01:08:16.720 so many

01:08:17.620 big issues

01:08:18.300 that I

01:08:18.700 scarcely see

01:08:19.600 discussed

01:08:20.040 at all

01:08:20.520 and when I

01:08:21.020 write columns

01:08:21.580 on them

01:08:21.820 I've done

01:08:22.080 two on

01:08:22.740 existential

01:08:23.060 risk

01:08:23.460 no hits

01:08:24.180 no clicks

01:08:25.480 people don't

01:08:26.180 want to hear

01:08:26.520 about it

01:08:26.860 come back

01:08:27.380 with me

01:08:28.320 to the

01:08:28.720 complacency

01:08:29.340 point

01:08:29.660 because I

01:08:30.080 see that

01:08:30.520 as being

01:08:30.880 at the

01:08:31.140 root

01:08:31.300 of all

01:08:31.600 the things

01:08:31.900 that we're

01:08:32.120 talking about

01:08:32.660 what is

01:08:33.980 your prescription

01:08:34.620 on that

01:08:35.180 how do

01:08:36.260 we

01:08:36.580 look

01:08:37.020 one of

01:08:37.560 the missions

01:08:38.020 we've had

01:08:38.580 on trigonometry

01:08:39.280 is to try

01:08:40.320 and articulate

01:08:41.680 from you know

01:08:42.600 my outside

01:08:43.380 and France's

01:08:44.000 sort of

01:08:44.220 semi-outsider

01:08:44.940 perspective

01:08:45.400 why the

01:08:46.060 West is

01:08:46.380 actually great

01:08:47.000 right

01:08:47.560 to talk

01:08:48.220 about its

01:08:48.600 history

01:08:48.880 in a positive

01:08:49.400 way

01:08:49.620 to have

01:08:50.000 historians

01:08:50.920 on to

01:08:51.320 talk about

01:08:52.000 the realities

01:08:52.580 of slavery

01:08:53.260 and who

01:08:53.640 practiced

01:08:54.000 slavery

01:08:54.320 and who

01:08:54.580 actually

01:08:54.860 ended

01:08:55.160 and all

01:08:55.660 of this

01:08:55.940 stuff

01:08:56.140 right

01:08:56.300 so to

01:08:57.640 put across

01:08:58.240 the idea

01:08:59.180 that some

01:08:59.760 of the

01:08:59.940 things you're

01:09:00.280 being told

01:09:00.800 on TV

01:09:01.460 or whatever

01:09:01.900 are not

01:09:02.220 true and

01:09:02.840 actually reflect

01:09:03.580 very wrongly

01:09:04.560 on your

01:09:05.160 society

01:09:05.620 but how do

01:09:08.180 we end

01:09:08.760 the complacency

01:09:09.760 that sense

01:09:10.480 of

01:09:10.820 to me

01:09:12.040 I always

01:09:12.840 feel

01:09:13.140 since I

01:09:13.680 became a

01:09:14.060 father

01:09:14.320 that our

01:09:16.180 greatest

01:09:16.660 debt is to

01:09:17.700 the future

01:09:18.160 that's

01:09:20.500 that's our

01:09:20.640 job

01:09:20.900 right

01:09:21.200 ultimately

01:09:21.780 even at

01:09:22.500 the genetic

01:09:22.960 level

01:09:23.340 this is what

01:09:24.160 Richard Dawkins

01:09:24.840 explains so

01:09:25.420 beautifully in

01:09:25.840 the selfish

01:09:26.180 gene

01:09:26.560 our genes

01:09:27.380 that make

01:09:28.160 us up

01:09:29.140 are trying

01:09:29.840 to reproduce

01:09:30.460 into the

01:09:31.000 future

01:09:31.260 and so

01:09:31.680 even

01:09:32.440 biologically

01:09:33.120 our debt

01:09:33.840 is to our

01:09:34.540 children

01:09:34.880 and to our

01:09:35.420 grandchildren

01:09:35.780 and we

01:09:36.800 are people

01:09:37.300 as a society

01:09:38.500 who are

01:09:39.220 putting our

01:09:39.900 hand into

01:09:40.540 the pockets

01:09:41.140 of our

01:09:41.620 unborn

01:09:42.020 grandchildren

01:09:42.580 and saying

01:09:43.220 oh let me

01:09:44.160 have another

01:09:44.960 X Y Z

01:09:46.160 I'd like

01:09:47.220 another bit

01:09:47.740 of chocolate

01:09:48.200 thank you

01:09:48.700 I don't care

01:09:49.140 about my

01:09:49.560 grandchildren

01:09:50.020 how do we

01:09:50.900 end that

01:09:51.360 yeah and

01:09:52.240 by the way

01:09:52.660 it's even

01:09:53.200 harder now

01:09:54.160 not to

01:09:54.900 continue to

01:09:56.200 take because

01:09:56.800 this has

01:09:57.220 happened for

01:09:57.560 so long

01:09:58.000 we're actually

01:09:58.560 much poorer

01:09:59.220 than we

01:09:59.580 expected that

01:10:00.340 we would

01:10:00.660 be

01:10:00.860 the way

01:10:02.020 that complacency

01:10:03.340 is eliminated

01:10:03.980 in market

01:10:04.600 competition

01:10:05.140 is the

01:10:05.660 complacent

01:10:06.060 companies

01:10:06.340 go bust

01:10:06.920 and then

01:10:07.960 the new

01:10:08.260 ones come

01:10:08.680 along

01:10:08.920 the problem

01:10:10.600 in our

01:10:11.460 terms

01:10:11.940 is if

01:10:12.220 the West

01:10:12.560 goes

01:10:13.060 the likely

01:10:14.360 successor

01:10:14.880 is

01:10:16.120 totalitarian

01:10:16.940 China

01:10:17.400 and that

01:10:18.220 might mean

01:10:18.700 competition

01:10:19.220 is eliminated

01:10:20.200 because they

01:10:21.080 just won't

01:10:21.460 allow that

01:10:22.300 to happen

01:10:23.320 you'll be

01:10:27.780 interested to

01:10:28.300 know

01:10:28.420 the psychological

01:10:29.200 literature on

01:10:29.920 complacency is

01:10:30.500 very immature

01:10:31.140 I don't think

01:10:32.580 that it's been

01:10:33.020 a lens

01:10:33.400 sufficiently

01:10:33.940 applied to

01:10:35.000 the historical

01:10:36.700 trajectory of

01:10:37.380 civilisations

01:10:37.980 I think we

01:10:38.440 need more

01:10:38.820 of it

01:10:39.200 I have

01:10:39.840 spoke to

01:10:40.300 a number

01:10:40.560 of cultural

01:10:41.460 evolutionary

01:10:42.300 theorists

01:10:43.440 and they

01:10:44.540 I mean

01:10:46.240 effectively

01:10:46.660 if you

01:10:46.980 think about

01:10:47.460 it

01:10:47.700 if you're

01:10:49.820 living

01:10:50.400 in a

01:10:51.260 you're a

01:10:52.100 company

01:10:52.480 you dominate

01:10:53.320 the marketplace

01:10:54.040 people

01:10:54.880 you get

01:10:55.220 prestige

01:10:55.780 people think

01:10:56.340 you're

01:10:56.520 wonderful

01:10:56.940 it is

01:10:58.800 I think

01:10:59.220 just psychologically

01:10:59.960 so easy

01:11:01.060 to think

01:11:01.540 you're worth

01:11:02.020 it

01:11:02.260 we've become

01:11:03.080 a L'Oreal

01:11:03.580 do you remember

01:11:04.260 that

01:11:04.440 society

01:11:05.280 but you're

01:11:06.080 saying

01:11:06.280 my answer

01:11:07.900 is

01:11:08.120 in a

01:11:08.600 democracy

01:11:09.060 you have

01:11:09.420 to persuade

01:11:09.840 enough

01:11:10.160 people

01:11:10.580 and would

01:11:11.800 I be

01:11:12.360 willing

01:11:12.620 to go

01:11:13.060 into a

01:11:13.420 party

01:11:13.760 where

01:11:14.100 they're

01:11:14.560 trying

01:11:15.320 to get

01:11:15.640 this

01:11:15.840 across

01:11:16.180 in a

01:11:16.420 way

01:11:16.560 that

01:11:16.720 might

01:11:16.960 be

01:11:17.160 convincing

01:11:17.600 to

01:11:17.820 people

01:11:18.140 it's

01:11:18.760 a tough

01:11:19.220 sell

01:11:19.460 I think

01:11:19.880 because I

01:11:20.520 think people

01:11:20.940 don't want

01:11:21.420 to hear

01:11:21.820 a lot

01:11:22.060 of this

01:11:22.300 stuff

01:11:22.600 but they're

01:11:23.200 going to

01:11:23.500 have to

01:11:23.840 hear it

01:11:24.140 at some

01:11:24.500 point

01:11:24.760 or collapse

01:11:25.500 or just

01:11:26.260 get outflanked

01:11:26.980 by the

01:11:27.240 competition

01:11:27.680 this is

01:11:28.260 not

01:11:28.420 impossible

01:11:28.740 I don't

01:11:28.960 know if

01:11:29.100 you saw

01:11:29.380 the story

01:11:29.880 recently

01:11:30.320 about

01:11:30.700 yesterday

01:11:31.520 the AI

01:11:32.680 Chinese

01:11:33.440 startup

01:11:34.120 which is

01:11:34.720 already

01:11:35.000 managing to

01:11:36.160 as it

01:11:37.020 were

01:11:37.200 provide

01:11:37.600 the

01:11:37.800 same

01:11:38.020 computational

01:11:38.640 sophistication

01:11:39.420 of a

01:11:39.660 large

01:11:39.880 language

01:11:40.240 model

01:11:40.540 at

01:11:41.100 much

01:11:41.480 lower

01:11:41.700 levels

01:11:41.960 of

01:11:42.080 computational

01:11:42.560 power

01:11:42.980 and

01:11:43.120 electricity

01:11:43.580 I mean

01:11:44.400 we are

01:11:44.900 in a

01:11:45.300 massive

01:11:45.740 competition

01:11:46.460 with a

01:11:47.500 society

01:11:48.640 dominated

01:11:49.340 by a

01:11:49.820 totalitarian

01:11:50.520 clique

01:11:51.060 called

01:11:51.380 the

01:11:51.540 Chinese

01:11:51.860 Communist

01:11:52.260 Party

01:11:52.700 which by

01:11:53.400 the way

01:11:53.600 I know

01:11:53.880 pretty well

01:11:54.440 because I

01:11:54.760 played a lot

01:11:55.200 of table

01:11:55.540 tennis

01:11:55.800 in China

01:11:56.340 and it's

01:11:57.360 mass

01:11:59.500 starvations

01:12:00.240 the

01:12:00.600 cultural

01:12:01.520 revolution

01:12:02.140 the

01:12:03.120 genocide

01:12:03.760 the

01:12:04.840 re-education

01:12:06.280 programs

01:12:06.940 they could

01:12:07.860 use

01:12:08.160 AI

01:12:08.420 to

01:12:08.840 completely

01:12:09.860 dominate

01:12:11.020 their

01:12:11.900 society

01:12:12.480 and the

01:12:12.940 wider

01:12:13.160 world

01:12:13.540 there's

01:12:14.280 a small

01:12:14.620 group

01:12:14.900 of

01:12:15.080 people

01:12:15.360 in the

01:12:15.760 CCP

01:12:16.200 and

01:12:17.100 so

01:12:17.600 if we

01:12:17.960 don't

01:12:18.180 my fear

01:12:18.940 is if we

01:12:19.320 don't

01:12:19.560 wake up

01:12:19.980 we could

01:12:20.520 lose

01:12:20.840 this

01:12:21.160 competition

01:12:21.800 so how

01:12:22.360 do we

01:12:22.560 wake up

01:12:23.040 well

01:12:24.320 I will

01:12:25.000 write

01:12:25.360 write in

01:12:25.820 columns

01:12:26.160 I don't

01:12:26.760 think it

01:12:27.020 will do

01:12:27.280 it

01:12:27.400 on

01:12:27.500 it

01:12:27.640 that

01:12:27.880 sounded

01:12:28.160 sarcastic

01:12:28.780 because it

01:12:29.920 is

01:12:30.260 how else

01:12:33.080 before we

01:12:34.200 get the

01:12:34.460 bond

01:12:34.660 market

01:12:34.960 correction

01:12:35.400 or some

01:12:35.960 other

01:12:36.200 disaster

01:12:37.220 not easy

01:12:38.580 you know

01:12:39.560 everybody

01:12:40.440 wakes up

01:12:41.040 at their

01:12:41.280 own time

01:12:41.780 and there

01:12:42.940 are people

01:12:43.280 who are

01:12:43.540 waking up

01:12:44.120 some people

01:12:45.340 will wake

01:12:45.740 up in

01:12:46.060 time and

01:12:46.840 some people

01:12:47.720 won't and

01:12:48.260 you just

01:12:48.640 have to

01:12:49.120 hope that

01:12:50.220 there is

01:12:50.500 enough people

01:12:51.100 waking up

01:12:51.700 at the

01:12:52.080 moment to

01:12:53.040 have a

01:12:53.720 change and

01:12:54.800 also as

01:12:55.380 well it

01:12:55.780 comes back to

01:12:56.340 the word I

01:12:56.840 used earlier

01:12:57.540 on in the

01:12:57.880 conversation

01:12:58.400 we need

01:13:00.360 courage we

01:13:01.180 need people

01:13:01.620 who are

01:13:01.900 actually going

01:13:02.340 to be

01:13:02.620 brave

01:13:02.940 you talked

01:13:03.720 about

01:13:03.980 deceit

01:13:04.540 I don't

01:13:05.140 think it's

01:13:05.500 deceit

01:13:05.960 Matthew

01:13:06.320 I think

01:13:06.860 it's

01:13:07.060 gaslighting

01:13:07.820 the politicians

01:13:09.260 have been

01:13:09.720 gaslighting

01:13:10.660 for a long

01:13:11.600 time and

01:13:12.240 people have

01:13:12.680 gaslit

01:13:13.160 themselves

01:13:13.640 and we

01:13:14.480 need to

01:13:14.780 wake up

01:13:15.280 and actually

01:13:15.800 realise

01:13:16.400 that if

01:13:17.080 we're going

01:13:17.400 to turn

01:13:17.780 this round

01:13:18.240 if we're

01:13:18.660 actually going

01:13:19.140 to save

01:13:19.620 our

01:13:19.800 civilisation

01:13:20.480 if we

01:13:21.380 are actually

01:13:22.240 going to

01:13:23.280 progress

01:13:23.680 and thrive

01:13:24.420 we need

01:13:25.800 to start

01:13:26.220 accepting

01:13:26.620 some pretty

01:13:27.120 hard

01:13:27.520 desperate

01:13:27.940 and

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01:13:28.580 truths

01:13:29.140 chaos

01:13:43.660 comes in

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01:13:45.460 last week

01:13:46.540 a guest

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01:13:47.760 because they

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01:13:49.040 studio

01:13:49.420 and we

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01:13:50.580 schedules

01:13:51.100 on the

01:13:51.460 fly

01:13:51.760 talk about

01:13:52.680 stress

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01:13:56.540 your e-commerce

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01:14:19.760 as someone

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01:15:09.200 make ship

01:15:10.340 happen

01:15:10.960 so diversity

01:15:13.320 yeah

01:15:13.840 what about

01:15:14.480 it

01:15:14.680 well

01:15:14.960 I think

01:15:17.260 it is a

01:15:17.620 strength

01:15:17.880 you don't

01:15:18.260 think it's

01:15:18.600 a strength

01:15:18.940 oh actually

01:15:19.940 actually no

01:15:20.440 you're going

01:15:20.780 to say

01:15:21.160 too much

01:15:22.080 cultural

01:15:22.440 diversity

01:15:22.900 people

01:15:23.200 that's not

01:15:23.760 what I'm

01:15:23.980 going to

01:15:24.160 say

01:15:24.280 what I'm

01:15:24.580 going to

01:15:24.780 say

01:15:24.900 is what

01:15:25.140 do you

01:15:25.320 mean

01:15:25.460 by

01:15:25.600 diversity

01:15:26.040 well I

01:15:26.460 think

01:15:26.600 that's

01:15:26.760 worth

01:15:27.080 defining

01:15:27.560 I

01:15:27.800 think

01:15:28.240 that

01:15:28.500 diversity

01:15:30.100 is a

01:15:30.380 tremendous

01:15:30.680 strength

01:15:31.300 within

01:15:32.020 certain

01:15:32.580 parameters

01:15:32.960 what do

01:15:33.500 you mean

01:15:33.720 by

01:15:33.880 I mean

01:15:34.220 cognitive

01:15:34.780 diversity

01:15:35.460 in other

01:15:35.820 words

01:15:36.100 oh right

01:15:36.520 so not

01:15:36.840 what the

01:15:37.640 rest of

01:15:37.940 society

01:15:38.260 means

01:15:38.540 by

01:15:38.700 diversity

01:15:39.180 if what

01:15:41.600 you mean

01:15:41.940 by diversity

01:15:42.620 is not

01:15:43.060 what we

01:15:43.460 keep being

01:15:43.840 told

01:15:44.180 about

01:15:44.520 then I

01:15:45.320 agree

01:15:45.500 let me

01:15:45.980 see what

01:15:46.300 you think

01:15:46.660 so let's

01:15:47.040 say the

01:15:47.720 society

01:15:48.040 thinks of

01:15:48.580 diversity

01:15:49.040 in demographic

01:15:50.200 terms

01:15:50.720 race

01:15:51.460 gender

01:15:51.900 the society

01:15:52.800 thinks there's

01:15:53.440 not enough

01:15:53.820 black people

01:15:54.400 on TV

01:15:54.960 let's shove

01:15:55.860 some black

01:15:56.280 people in

01:15:56.780 there

01:15:56.880 that's

01:15:57.140 diversity

01:15:57.500 is that

01:15:58.200 our

01:15:58.320 greatest

01:15:58.540 strength

01:15:58.900 well I

01:15:59.720 think it

01:16:00.260 can have

01:16:00.800 some very

01:16:01.680 positive

01:16:02.060 implications

01:16:02.580 so

01:16:02.880 cognitive

01:16:03.940 diversity

01:16:04.420 what I

01:16:04.700 mean by

01:16:04.960 that is

01:16:05.180 different

01:16:05.380 insights

01:16:05.940 perspectives

01:16:06.580 information

01:16:07.220 that can

01:16:07.920 be brought

01:16:08.340 to bear

01:16:08.680 on solving

01:16:09.220 problems

01:16:09.700 that no

01:16:10.520 one

01:16:10.740 perspective

01:16:11.200 has a

01:16:11.740 monopoly

01:16:12.000 of good

01:16:12.300 ideas

01:16:12.660 on

01:16:12.780 but demographic

01:16:14.460 differences

01:16:14.940 do provide

01:16:15.860 that kind

01:16:16.360 of diversity

01:16:17.040 depends how

01:16:17.620 they're managed

01:16:18.200 and how

01:16:18.720 they're created

01:16:19.340 if you just

01:16:19.940 randomly start

01:16:20.860 picking people

01:16:21.640 because on their

01:16:22.320 skin colour

01:16:22.820 basis

01:16:23.260 no it

01:16:23.900 doesn't

01:16:24.440 there's also

01:16:26.260 another facet

01:16:26.980 of it which

01:16:27.460 is you get

01:16:28.260 somebody

01:16:28.660 they go

01:16:29.020 look at

01:16:29.400 this person

01:16:30.000 who's

01:16:30.380 diverse

01:16:30.900 we brought

01:16:31.560 through

01:16:31.920 at the

01:16:32.440 BBC

01:16:32.880 they're

01:16:33.680 privately

01:16:34.040 educated

01:16:34.700 they went

01:16:35.160 to Oxford

01:16:35.700 they have

01:16:36.260 exactly the

01:16:36.960 same opinions

01:16:37.540 on you

01:16:37.840 on everything

01:16:38.700 from economics

01:16:39.760 to Brexit

01:16:40.360 to whatever

01:16:40.920 to populism

01:16:41.720 that's not

01:16:42.800 diversity

01:16:43.420 that's just

01:16:44.280 you with

01:16:45.320 just a little

01:16:45.820 bit more

01:16:46.140 melanin

01:16:46.780 all I would

01:16:47.380 say is

01:16:47.980 that colour

01:16:49.280 still now

01:16:50.300 won't always

01:16:52.320 be this way

01:16:52.920 is still a

01:16:53.880 proxy

01:16:55.240 for culture

01:16:56.120 for tacit

01:16:57.280 knowledge

01:16:57.700 of a very

01:16:59.360 significant kind

01:17:00.340 in almost all

01:17:00.960 of the problems

01:17:01.380 we face

01:17:01.940 I'm going to

01:17:03.060 simplify a bit

01:17:03.640 Blair gave a

01:17:04.420 speech on how

01:17:04.900 to crack down

01:17:05.420 on antisocial

01:17:06.100 behaviour

01:17:06.520 and he said

01:17:07.280 what we need

01:17:07.700 to do is

01:17:08.340 empower the

01:17:09.380 police to see

01:17:10.080 someone engage

01:17:10.680 in antisocial

01:17:11.340 behaviour

01:17:11.640 march them

01:17:12.060 to a cash

01:17:12.480 point

01:17:12.760 get them

01:17:13.520 to withdraw

01:17:13.980 £100

01:17:14.340 and issue

01:17:15.020 an on the

01:17:15.360 spot £100

01:17:15.980 fine

01:17:16.600 and all the

01:17:17.340 upper middle

01:17:17.700 class journalists

01:17:18.480 thought it was

01:17:18.900 a brilliant

01:17:19.420 policy

01:17:19.840 but it took

01:17:21.340 someone from

01:17:21.700 a different

01:17:21.980 social class

01:17:22.700 to see the

01:17:23.240 problem

01:17:23.700 which is a lot

01:17:24.780 of these people

01:17:25.100 didn't have

01:17:25.380 bank accounts

01:17:25.900 and almost none

01:17:26.500 had £100

01:17:26.980 bank ballots

01:17:27.740 in other words

01:17:28.680 if you think

01:17:29.600 of intelligence

01:17:30.180 as sort of

01:17:30.760 conceptual flair

01:17:31.840 you detach it

01:17:33.060 from granular

01:17:33.680 cultural understanding

01:17:34.820 and it takes

01:17:35.480 you in the

01:17:35.740 wrong direction

01:17:36.200 our politicians

01:17:37.100 have come

01:17:37.600 from too

01:17:38.720 narrow a

01:17:39.140 social class

01:17:39.920 for example

01:17:40.580 and I think

01:17:42.120 that if you've

01:17:43.660 got a group

01:17:44.060 of people

01:17:44.500 white male

01:17:45.300 Oxbridge

01:17:46.040 graduates

01:17:46.980 running a

01:17:47.680 company

01:17:48.100 which is

01:17:48.920 trying to

01:17:49.320 appeal to

01:17:49.860 a broad

01:17:50.240 demographic

01:17:50.900 you could

01:17:51.220 have a

01:17:51.460 massive

01:17:51.660 problem

01:17:52.060 and bringing

01:17:52.940 people from

01:17:53.460 different

01:17:53.780 backgrounds

01:17:54.060 because

01:17:54.300 what you

01:17:55.020 want is

01:17:55.320 merit

01:17:55.580 all the

01:17:56.560 big decisions

01:17:57.360 high value

01:17:58.040 in the

01:17:58.240 world

01:17:58.440 are taken

01:17:58.780 by teams

01:17:59.480 right

01:18:00.360 because the

01:18:00.920 world's too

01:18:01.360 complex for

01:18:01.960 one person

01:18:02.460 to have all

01:18:02.800 the information

01:18:03.400 you have a

01:18:04.400 group of

01:18:04.720 people

01:18:05.060 in a

01:18:05.880 team

01:18:06.200 who come

01:18:06.640 from a

01:18:06.920 very similar

01:18:07.420 background

01:18:07.940 they're adding

01:18:09.120 nothing to

01:18:09.600 each other

01:18:10.020 what you want

01:18:10.960 is meritocracy

01:18:11.700 at the level

01:18:12.180 of the team

01:18:12.800 and then you

01:18:13.400 bring people

01:18:13.900 with different

01:18:14.320 perspectives

01:18:14.740 and different

01:18:15.440 cultural

01:18:16.020 backgrounds

01:18:17.140 where relevant

01:18:17.980 to the

01:18:18.320 problems

01:18:18.660 we're trying

01:18:19.060 to solve

01:18:19.520 the CIA

01:18:20.340 in the

01:18:20.700 post-war

01:18:21.060 period

01:18:21.460 95%

01:18:23.180 of its

01:18:23.520 analysts

01:18:24.060 were white

01:18:25.160 male

01:18:25.600 middle-class

01:18:27.100 privately

01:18:28.260 educated

01:18:28.980 liberal arts

01:18:30.060 graduates

01:18:30.600 protestant

01:18:32.940 did I

01:18:33.140 mention

01:18:33.360 that

01:18:33.580 it was

01:18:34.100 a very

01:18:34.500 narrow

01:18:34.900 group

01:18:35.240 of

01:18:35.400 people

01:18:35.660 all

01:18:36.120 of

01:18:36.260 whom

01:18:36.420 passed

01:18:36.800 a test

01:18:37.320 better

01:18:38.220 than

01:18:38.380 anyone

01:18:38.600 else

01:18:38.940 reason

01:18:40.260 it

01:18:40.440 they

01:18:40.980 were

01:18:41.180 a

01:18:41.360 disaster

01:18:41.920 in

01:18:42.420 anticipating

01:18:43.200 threats

01:18:43.760 because they

01:18:44.340 couldn't

01:18:44.580 see

01:18:44.960 emerging

01:18:45.840 tribal

01:18:46.320 problem

01:18:46.820 you need

01:18:47.420 people

01:18:47.820 with

01:18:48.080 perspectives

01:18:48.940 that are

01:18:49.280 relevant

01:18:49.480 and that

01:18:49.900 is often

01:18:50.420 colour

01:18:51.280 gender

01:18:52.240 is bringing

01:18:53.040 a whole

01:18:53.560 load of

01:18:54.060 tacit

01:18:54.480 collateral

01:18:55.080 to these

01:18:55.640 problems

01:18:55.780 this is

01:18:56.280 why

01:18:56.480 Amazon

01:18:57.100 Microsoft

01:18:58.120 MI6

01:18:59.040 CIA

01:18:59.560 today

01:19:00.080 they might

01:19:00.980 not say

01:19:01.380 it in

01:19:01.620 the

01:19:01.740 Trump

01:19:01.940 era

01:19:02.160 but they

01:19:02.620 are

01:19:02.820 focused

01:19:03.440 fundamentally

01:19:04.240 on bringing

01:19:04.740 diverse

01:19:05.240 perspectives

01:19:05.740 to solve

01:19:06.220 complex

01:19:06.720 interconnected

01:19:07.240 problems

01:19:07.760 that's

01:19:08.140 fine

01:19:08.400 but that's

01:19:09.160 not what

01:19:09.600 most people

01:19:10.200 understand

01:19:10.780 by that

01:19:11.260 mean or

01:19:11.800 understand

01:19:12.200 by diversity

01:19:12.920 you are

01:19:13.700 here

01:19:13.960 talking to

01:19:14.620 us

01:19:14.820 because

01:19:15.220 we love

01:19:15.840 your

01:19:16.000 column

01:19:16.300 and also

01:19:17.480 because

01:19:17.900 there have

01:19:18.180 been a

01:19:18.540 number

01:19:18.720 of issues

01:19:19.320 that have

01:19:19.820 been raised

01:19:20.240 recently

01:19:20.760 on which

01:19:21.240 we feel

01:19:21.760 based on

01:19:22.980 your

01:19:23.140 column

01:19:23.460 but also

01:19:23.860 on your

01:19:24.120 background

01:19:25.640 you would

01:19:26.620 have a

01:19:26.940 unique

01:19:27.180 perspective

01:19:27.680 and you

01:19:28.220 make us

01:19:28.520 look less

01:19:28.880 racist

01:19:29.220 exactly

01:19:29.740 and better

01:19:31.240 looking

01:19:31.540 that's

01:19:35.240 why you're

01:19:35.580 here

01:19:35.800 you're not

01:19:36.440 here because

01:19:36.940 you're a

01:19:37.160 brown guy

01:19:37.640 that's the

01:19:38.940 difference

01:19:39.340 that's the

01:19:40.180 difference

01:19:40.460 between what

01:19:40.960 you're talking

01:19:41.520 about which

01:19:42.100 is someone

01:19:43.140 having a

01:19:43.680 unique perspective

01:19:44.440 that's valuable

01:19:45.120 and what I'm

01:19:46.520 talking about

01:19:47.200 which is

01:19:47.580 box ticking

01:19:48.120 and we've

01:19:48.920 had way

01:19:49.580 too much

01:19:49.980 box ticking

01:19:50.400 that's

01:19:50.700 right

01:19:50.920 I agree

01:19:51.280 with that

01:19:51.540 it went

01:19:51.760 too far

01:19:52.220 do you

01:19:53.360 agree

01:19:53.600 that

01:19:53.840 meritocracy

01:19:54.960 at the

01:19:55.560 level

01:19:55.760 of an

01:19:56.000 individual

01:19:56.440 say you

01:19:56.860 had a

01:19:57.140 test

01:19:57.460 that could

01:19:57.780 hire

01:19:58.440 for the

01:19:59.480 best

01:19:59.740 graduate

01:20:00.220 to go

01:20:01.160 into the

01:20:01.500 analytical

01:20:01.820 function

01:20:02.260 of the

01:20:02.480 CIA

01:20:02.820 would you

01:20:04.480 agree

01:20:04.740 with me

01:20:05.060 that applying

01:20:05.640 that test

01:20:06.420 to recruit

01:20:07.400 the hundred

01:20:08.120 people you

01:20:08.660 need

01:20:09.000 will definitely

01:20:10.380 lead to

01:20:10.880 disaster

01:20:11.380 not necessarily

01:20:12.640 what I would

01:20:13.180 say is if

01:20:13.620 those people

01:20:14.080 are smart

01:20:14.480 enough to

01:20:14.820 go we're

01:20:15.120 about to

01:20:15.500 overthrow

01:20:16.260 a government

01:20:16.780 in Latin

01:20:17.180 America

01:20:17.600 maybe we

01:20:18.100 should chat

01:20:18.540 to somebody

01:20:19.060 who's been

01:20:19.420 to South

01:20:19.840 America

01:20:20.280 do you see

01:20:21.860 what I'm

01:20:22.080 saying

01:20:22.360 well in

01:20:22.800 other words

01:20:23.160 there's a

01:20:24.240 problem

01:20:24.460 no that

01:20:24.840 doesn't

01:20:25.120 work

01:20:25.420 that doesn't

01:20:25.940 work

01:20:26.500 that's

01:20:27.140 what people

01:20:28.260 used to

01:20:28.680 say in

01:20:28.960 marketing

01:20:29.340 they'd say

01:20:30.320 right what

01:20:30.700 we do

01:20:31.120 we don't

01:20:32.340 have any

01:20:32.640 diversity

01:20:33.000 in our

01:20:33.300 group

01:20:33.600 but what

01:20:34.000 we'll do

01:20:34.260 is we'll

01:20:34.520 ask questions

01:20:35.140 but you know

01:20:37.000 why it doesn't

01:20:37.420 work

01:20:37.780 what questions

01:20:39.040 are asked

01:20:39.580 in order to

01:20:40.520 elicit what

01:20:41.040 kinds of

01:20:41.500 answers

01:20:41.980 EO Wilson

01:20:43.160 said

01:20:43.620 you test a

01:20:44.760 trivial hypothesis

01:20:45.620 you get a

01:20:46.120 trivial answer

01:20:46.600 you need to

01:20:46.960 ask rich

01:20:47.580 questions

01:20:48.120 you need

01:20:48.800 diversity

01:20:49.240 within the

01:20:49.800 team

01:20:50.140 that is

01:20:50.600 asking the

01:20:51.080 questions

01:20:51.560 market

01:20:52.020 researchers

01:20:52.580 and analysts

01:20:53.400 because if

01:20:54.540 you look at

01:20:54.820 the FBI

01:20:55.280 in the era

01:20:56.240 of Guantanamo

01:20:56.900 Bay

01:20:57.240 they couldn't

01:20:59.360 see what was

01:21:00.120 before them

01:21:00.780 which was a

01:21:01.740 clan based

01:21:03.140 population

01:21:04.740 because they

01:21:06.060 didn't understand

01:21:06.940 these are

01:21:08.200 deeply complex

01:21:09.560 cultural traditions

01:21:10.620 that requires

01:21:11.800 within the

01:21:12.740 analytical function

01:21:13.760 so

01:21:14.240 what I'm saying

01:21:15.300 all I'm saying

01:21:16.000 to you is

01:21:16.320 it seems to

01:21:17.240 me that

01:21:17.460 Trump

01:21:17.880 Musk

01:21:18.840 Musk is

01:21:19.380 very bright

01:21:19.820 but this

01:21:20.140 is something

01:21:20.600 that happens

01:21:21.020 to a lot

01:21:21.360 of bright

01:21:21.640 people

01:21:21.880 they think

01:21:22.240 meritocracy

01:21:22.860 at the level

01:21:23.340 of the

01:21:23.580 individual

01:21:24.040 give you

01:21:24.440 meritocracy

01:21:25.000 at the

01:21:25.260 level

01:21:25.440 of the

01:21:25.740 team

01:21:26.060 it is

01:21:27.140 conceptually

01:21:28.260 incoherent

01:21:29.240 depending on

01:21:29.900 the mission

01:21:30.280 of the team

01:21:30.760 I agree

01:21:31.380 so long as

01:21:32.420 it's complex

01:21:32.880 what I'm

01:21:33.460 saying to

01:21:33.920 you is

01:21:34.320 the issue

01:21:35.500 of the FBI

01:21:36.260 being

01:21:36.700 insufficiently

01:21:37.500 capable

01:21:37.860 of understanding

01:21:38.720 the Islamist

01:21:39.720 extremism

01:21:40.780 issue

01:21:41.300 is not going

01:21:42.520 to get

01:21:42.840 solved by

01:21:43.800 having more

01:21:44.280 trans people

01:21:44.980 with rainbow

01:21:46.180 lanyards

01:21:46.760 in the FBI

01:21:47.780 and I think

01:21:49.060 that's the

01:21:49.760 issue that

01:21:50.300 people are

01:21:50.960 concerned about

01:21:51.660 number one

01:21:52.240 number two

01:21:53.260 the code

01:21:55.140 the idea

01:21:57.240 that diversities

01:21:58.160 are greater

01:21:58.640 strength

01:21:59.160 has been

01:21:59.560 discredited

01:22:00.160 somewhat

01:22:00.520 by the fact

01:22:01.120 that it

01:22:01.420 has to be

01:22:01.900 wheeled out

01:22:02.440 every time

01:22:02.840 there's a

01:22:03.160 terrorist attack

01:22:03.880 which is

01:22:05.120 what Sadiq

01:22:05.840 Khan

01:22:06.040 and all

01:22:06.300 these other

01:22:06.580 people do

01:22:07.140 every time

01:22:07.920 there's a

01:22:08.240 terrorist

01:22:08.500 attack

01:22:08.780 diversities

01:22:09.300 are greater

01:22:09.640 strength

01:22:09.940 maybe not

01:22:10.640 now mate

01:22:11.180 maybe not

01:22:11.960 right in this

01:22:12.520 moment

01:22:12.860 do you see

01:22:13.820 what I'm

01:22:14.000 saying

01:22:14.260 so all of

01:22:17.820 that we've

01:22:18.160 agreed on

01:22:18.660 and there's a

01:22:21.460 third point

01:22:21.980 which is

01:22:22.540 the other

01:22:23.200 thing is

01:22:23.840 diversity is

01:22:24.580 our greatest

01:22:25.020 strength

01:22:25.400 there's been

01:22:25.740 this mantra

01:22:26.300 that's been

01:22:26.680 used to

01:22:27.060 justify mass

01:22:27.760 immigration

01:22:28.200 as if

01:22:29.580 bringing in

01:22:30.500 lots of

01:22:30.860 people is

01:22:31.340 automatically

01:22:31.840 making us

01:22:32.480 stronger

01:22:32.740 and it's

01:22:33.380 absolutely not

01:22:33.980 of course it's

01:22:34.300 not

01:22:34.420 I agree with

01:22:35.160 all of that

01:22:35.520 by the way

01:22:36.200 but I do

01:22:39.480 want to

01:22:39.720 there's another

01:22:41.080 part of it

01:22:41.620 just one more

01:22:42.220 part

01:22:42.480 there's a

01:22:43.000 class element

01:22:43.620 to this

01:22:44.060 which is

01:22:44.640 they go

01:22:45.420 right

01:22:45.720 we don't

01:22:46.420 and I saw

01:22:46.840 it in comedy

01:22:47.280 which is

01:22:47.760 we need

01:22:48.200 less white

01:22:48.900 people

01:22:49.300 but you know

01:22:49.900 what

01:22:50.120 all the

01:22:50.520 posh boys

01:22:51.120 who've got

01:22:51.500 all the

01:22:51.720 connections

01:22:52.100 they're still

01:22:52.600 going to

01:22:52.820 get in

01:22:53.160 so who

01:22:53.780 are the

01:22:53.960 white

01:22:54.200 people

01:22:54.520 or not

01:22:54.880 oh

01:22:55.360 it's

01:22:55.720 people

01:22:56.080 who

01:22:56.420 think a

01:22:57.660 little bit

01:22:58.020 differently

01:22:58.500 maybe have

01:22:59.120 a different

01:22:59.520 accent

01:22:59.860 and maybe

01:23:00.320 didn't go

01:23:00.720 to the

01:23:01.020 right

01:23:01.240 school

01:23:01.520 those

01:23:02.280 are the

01:23:02.600 people

01:23:02.880 which

01:23:03.520 shall we

01:23:04.180 just say

01:23:04.580 as well

01:23:04.980 is the

01:23:05.580 majority

01:23:06.060 of people

01:23:06.560 in this

01:23:06.920 country

01:23:07.280 I agree

01:23:08.880 with that

01:23:09.640 but I

01:23:09.900 don't want

01:23:10.200 to land

01:23:10.520 the point

01:23:11.040 that this

01:23:12.040 idea of

01:23:12.460 meritocracy

01:23:13.020 hiring the

01:23:13.640 best person

01:23:14.500 for the

01:23:14.900 job

01:23:15.320 yes

01:23:16.200 you need

01:23:16.920 the best

01:23:17.280 team

01:23:17.560 for the

01:23:17.920 team's

01:23:18.300 job

01:23:18.500 that's

01:23:18.760 what

01:23:18.860 you're

01:23:18.960 saying

01:23:19.200 and this

01:23:19.620 is really

01:23:19.960 important

01:23:20.200 but it's

01:23:20.520 missed

01:23:20.940 I've got to

01:23:22.580 tell you

01:23:22.820 I have a

01:23:23.700 business

01:23:24.220 that works

01:23:24.700 you'll be

01:23:25.400 amazed

01:23:26.100 at how

01:23:27.020 often

01:23:27.300 this happens

01:23:28.200 in both

01:23:28.600 ways

01:23:28.840 by the way

01:23:29.160 sometimes

01:23:29.460 you'll have

01:23:29.820 a senior

01:23:30.180 leadership

01:23:30.540 team

01:23:30.940 who look

01:23:31.860 diverse

01:23:32.500 white

01:23:34.060 brown

01:23:34.600 but they've

01:23:35.500 been there

01:23:35.800 so long

01:23:36.180 they think

01:23:36.580 in the

01:23:36.820 same way

01:23:37.320 they bring

01:23:38.100 the same

01:23:38.640 historical

01:23:39.340 precedence

01:23:39.900 they use

01:23:40.640 the same

01:23:40.920 metaphors

01:23:41.520 they're just

01:23:42.660 going to get

01:23:42.980 beaten in

01:23:43.480 competition

01:23:43.920 it's those

01:23:44.800 organisations

01:23:45.380 that rationally

01:23:46.200 optimise for

01:23:46.920 team diversity

01:23:47.560 and it's not

01:23:48.320 easy to do

01:23:48.920 it's subtle

01:23:49.440 the ones

01:23:50.440 that are

01:23:50.640 doing this

01:23:51.020 well

01:23:51.180 they are

01:23:52.060 completely

01:23:53.240 winning

01:23:53.620 in this

01:23:54.000 age

01:23:54.320 and I do

01:23:54.980 worry

01:23:55.300 I'm hearing

01:23:55.920 again and

01:23:56.740 again people

01:23:57.180 say we just

01:23:57.540 need the

01:23:57.840 best person

01:23:58.420 for the

01:23:58.680 job

01:23:58.900 as if

01:23:59.540 you can

01:23:59.780 have a

01:24:00.040 single

01:24:00.360 test

01:24:00.920 that can

01:24:01.700 tell you

01:24:02.060 who the

01:24:02.300 best person

01:24:02.880 is to

01:24:03.440 populate a

01:24:03.940 team

01:24:04.060 it's a

01:24:04.720 disaster

01:24:05.080 you can't

01:24:05.700 no I

01:24:06.360 disagree

01:24:06.780 it depends

01:24:07.500 on the

01:24:07.800 team and

01:24:08.140 it depends

01:24:08.540 on the

01:24:08.820 mission

01:24:09.000 I'll give

01:24:10.480 you an

01:24:10.640 example

01:24:11.000 we have

01:24:11.920 ten people

01:24:12.420 working for

01:24:12.900 us

01:24:13.580 right

01:24:13.800 we just

01:24:15.000 hired the

01:24:15.540 new person

01:24:16.000 to make

01:24:16.340 thumbnails

01:24:16.720 for our

01:24:17.040 YouTube

01:24:17.260 videos

01:24:17.740 right

01:24:18.240 the only

01:24:18.860 thing that

01:24:19.280 matters

01:24:19.620 is is that

01:24:20.380 person able

01:24:21.040 to do the

01:24:21.540 thumbnails

01:24:21.920 that look

01:24:22.400 good and

01:24:22.740 get attention

01:24:23.340 in the way

01:24:23.760 that we

01:24:24.020 want

01:24:24.240 we don't

01:24:25.060 care who

01:24:25.480 he is

01:24:25.780 we don't

01:24:26.060 care where

01:24:26.360 he's from

01:24:26.860 it doesn't

01:24:27.340 matter

01:24:27.620 right

01:24:28.100 there are

01:24:28.760 some jobs

01:24:29.360 where and

01:24:30.420 some teams

01:24:31.100 where what

01:24:31.560 you're talking

01:24:31.980 about is not

01:24:32.480 necessary

01:24:32.860 however when

01:24:34.660 you have a

01:24:35.160 situation when

01:24:35.820 the government

01:24:36.340 says as it

01:24:37.860 does in

01:24:38.180 America in

01:24:38.820 some departments

01:24:40.160 or used to

01:24:40.780 at least until

01:24:41.340 Trump came in

01:24:42.080 well actually

01:24:42.860 you need

01:24:43.360 ten percent of

01:24:44.340 this demographic

01:24:45.080 population

01:24:45.840 five percent of

01:24:46.600 this and you

01:24:47.000 don't have

01:24:47.220 enough women

01:24:47.640 you don't have

01:24:48.000 enough this

01:24:48.360 enough that

01:24:49.100 that is

01:24:49.940 artificially

01:24:50.780 influencing the

01:24:51.600 situation

01:24:52.020 not in a

01:24:52.740 good way at

01:24:53.140 all it's not

01:24:53.640 fundamental to

01:24:54.580 making the

01:24:55.400 success of the

01:24:56.100 mission

01:24:56.440 more likely

01:24:57.940 it's fundamental

01:24:58.820 to ticking

01:24:59.660 boxes and

01:25:00.480 that's when

01:25:01.080 people like

01:25:02.240 Elon or us

01:25:03.220 or whoever

01:25:03.600 says when we

01:25:05.100 push back against

01:25:06.100 the idea of

01:25:06.800 diversity is our

01:25:07.640 greatest strength

01:25:08.320 what we're pushing

01:25:09.360 back against is

01:25:10.520 box ticking

01:25:11.080 and to be fair

01:25:11.700 Elon in his

01:25:12.440 companies I

01:25:13.200 think is very

01:25:14.180 focused on the

01:25:15.040 right kind of

01:25:15.520 diversity but you

01:25:16.200 said you know

01:25:16.760 thumbnails that's

01:25:17.760 right brick

01:25:18.460 layers the

01:25:19.460 productivity is

01:25:20.240 how many bricks

01:25:20.960 each individual

01:25:21.740 can lay the

01:25:22.500 overall

01:25:22.900 productivities of

01:25:23.760 some of the

01:25:24.120 individual members

01:25:24.680 that's not true

01:25:25.600 of most of

01:25:26.140 the very high

01:25:27.040 value work

01:25:27.540 that's done in

01:25:27.980 the world

01:25:28.220 today okay

01:25:29.140 give you a

01:25:29.600 different example

01:25:30.180 right we get

01:25:31.540 comments from

01:25:32.220 women all the

01:25:33.080 time regularly

01:25:34.220 well this show

01:25:35.000 would be so much

01:25:35.540 better if it was

01:25:36.120 hosted by women

01:25:36.940 and I'm like who

01:25:38.220 stopped women from

01:25:39.400 starting a YouTube

01:25:40.240 channel the

01:25:41.080 patriarch

01:25:41.480 like we we

01:25:45.380 we started this

01:25:46.600 channel in a room

01:25:47.620 above a comedy

01:25:48.260 club with no

01:25:48.900 money no

01:25:49.500 connections no

01:25:50.360 social media

01:25:50.940 nothing and we

01:25:51.800 built it up

01:25:52.380 right if two

01:25:53.660 women want to do

01:25:54.300 that no one's

01:25:55.280 standing in their

01:25:55.780 way

01:25:56.040 right but the

01:25:58.000 way that people

01:25:58.540 have been trained

01:25:59.100 to think is oh

01:26:00.180 let's just switch

01:26:01.080 these things around

01:26:01.980 and then everything

01:26:02.560 will be so much

01:26:03.100 better

01:26:03.420 okay okay let me

01:26:05.200 ask you okay

01:26:05.740 obviously we're

01:26:07.020 agreeing almost all

01:26:07.940 of it but I do

01:26:08.540 think I haven't

01:26:09.160 let me if you

01:26:10.780 walked into a

01:26:11.580 senior team in a

01:26:13.540 government all

01:26:15.140 hugely talented

01:26:16.180 individuals

01:26:16.940 massively brilliant

01:26:19.800 at the you know

01:26:20.780 and remember running

01:26:21.660 a government isn't

01:26:22.480 just running their

01:26:23.060 own departments

01:26:23.700 have to come

01:26:24.200 together and

01:26:24.660 discuss issues

01:26:25.620 that pertain to

01:26:26.520 all of them

01:26:27.140 and the synergies

01:26:28.060 and strategic

01:26:28.740 trade-offs between

01:26:29.680 them and they

01:26:30.720 were all

01:26:31.260 oxbridge graduates

01:26:33.020 white male

01:26:33.760 middle class I

01:26:34.800 think that's likely

01:26:35.460 to make profound

01:26:36.560 mistakes and in fact

01:26:37.680 if you disagree look

01:26:38.780 at the blunders of

01:26:39.460 our governments by

01:26:40.300 either king and

01:26:40.960 anthony crew they

01:26:43.260 say that almost all

01:26:44.340 of it was because

01:26:45.300 they just didn't have

01:26:46.820 sufficient diversity

01:26:47.680 in the room

01:26:48.120 honestly I'll give

01:26:50.180 you I've written a

01:26:50.940 book on this

01:26:51.440 subject and I can

01:26:52.680 see you're looking

01:26:53.220 skeptical I remember

01:26:54.600 I used to set on an

01:26:57.580 advisory group for the

01:26:58.420 England football

01:26:58.820 manager the England

01:27:00.520 football manager tell

01:27:01.500 me if you think this is

01:27:02.180 a good advisory team to

01:27:03.300 the England football

01:27:03.920 men's manager what

01:27:05.920 would traditionally be

01:27:06.600 as lots of other

01:27:07.220 England football

01:27:07.920 managers who know a

01:27:09.320 lot about football if

01:27:10.260 you were to test we

01:27:10.920 want people with

01:27:11.520 knowledge about football

01:27:12.420 to come and advise on

01:27:13.320 football these have the

01:27:14.700 10 most knowledgeable

01:27:15.620 people they're going to

01:27:16.760 advise Southgate

01:27:17.560 that's meritocracy and

01:27:19.580 it's a disaster why

01:27:21.100 because Southgate

01:27:21.820 already knows what

01:27:22.480 they know they were

01:27:24.440 socialized into the

01:27:25.360 same assumptions about

01:27:26.220 football they're not

01:27:26.860 telling it it's an echo

01:27:27.700 chamber so what do they

01:27:28.880 need what they need

01:27:29.640 well the team that I

01:27:30.400 join me with my

01:27:32.020 background in interest

01:27:33.220 in psychology and

01:27:34.040 culture and performance

01:27:35.400 is what most of my

01:27:36.600 life I've been

01:27:37.000 interested in high

01:27:37.660 performance and somebody

01:27:40.100 with a background in

01:27:40.600 AI Dave Brailsford

01:27:42.520 he's not knows very

01:27:43.420 little about football

01:27:44.040 he's a cycling coach

01:27:44.920 but think about a

01:27:46.260 cycling coach might

01:27:46.960 bring to that

01:27:47.400 ecosystem with

01:27:48.160 knowledge on

01:27:48.640 cardiovascular endurance

01:27:49.840 recovery data

01:27:51.220 performance selection

01:27:52.500 fantastic Lucy Giles

01:27:54.000 worked at the army

01:27:54.980 the army's world class

01:27:56.480 on logistics now it

01:27:58.280 takes a strategic lens

01:27:59.860 to say you don't want

01:28:01.480 to be meritocratic we

01:28:02.540 want people who know a

01:28:03.300 lot about football

01:28:03.920 hold on I think we're

01:28:05.340 just this is a language

01:28:06.560 issue in that case in

01:28:08.120 in none of those

01:28:09.420 people's cases have you

01:28:10.880 mentioned their class

01:28:12.120 their race their sex

01:28:14.180 their sexual orientation

01:28:16.000 the transgenderism or

01:28:17.680 lack thereof you talked

01:28:19.280 about their skills is

01:28:21.040 diversity of skills

01:28:22.380 useful in a in a team

01:28:23.680 that's choosing an

01:28:24.440 England manager god

01:28:25.660 yes but do I care if

01:28:27.340 those people are green

01:28:28.360 aliens or transsexual

01:28:30.120 black people or

01:28:31.100 whatever god no would

01:28:32.580 class matter in a

01:28:33.460 political decision

01:28:34.320 making I think so yes

01:28:35.480 yes I do but again I

01:28:37.680 wouldn't be picking

01:28:38.460 people based on class

01:28:40.000 what I would do is make

01:28:41.060 sure that the obstacles

01:28:41.960 are removed from working

01:28:43.220 class people's ability to

01:28:44.600 advance within our

01:28:45.500 society right that's

01:28:47.840 what I have a long-term

01:28:48.740 program but what you

01:28:49.500 really want that's what

01:28:50.160 we want yeah well of

01:28:51.080 course but you want

01:28:51.720 people in now in the

01:28:53.320 cabinet people who both

01:28:54.580 have knowledge yeah the

01:28:56.020 relevant kind and you

01:28:57.100 want some class diversity

01:28:58.220 too didn't wasn't John

01:28:59.540 Prescott a perfect

01:29:00.440 example of that yeah

01:29:01.760 right so if if we're

01:29:04.240 capable of doing it in

01:29:05.220 1997 but there has been

01:29:07.300 over the but the people

01:29:08.740 who study these things so

01:29:09.860 there's been a very

01:29:10.740 significant definitely

01:29:12.160 deficit of diversity

01:29:13.580 and we've got fewer

01:29:14.380 people becoming MPs from

01:29:15.780 the army background and

01:29:17.160 also do trade union

01:29:18.480 everyone's now going

01:29:19.420 through university right

01:29:20.600 but that's exactly that's

01:29:21.820 not because of a lack of

01:29:23.100 DEI is my point it's not

01:29:26.920 because we didn't have a

01:29:28.440 government program to

01:29:29.440 said you need one more of

01:29:30.920 these yeah right yeah no I

01:29:32.980 agree I agree I go I agree

01:29:34.180 with myself but you know

01:29:35.280 Constantine Kissin

01:29:36.240 destroys diversity with facts

01:29:37.920 I don't think I do not

01:29:40.620 concede defeat by the way

01:29:42.700 but Matthew there's a

01:29:44.420 point that I want to make

01:29:45.420 as well which I'm just

01:29:47.420 messing with you that's a

01:29:49.020 clip there's a point that I

01:29:51.120 want to make which I don't

01:29:52.260 think people make enough

01:29:53.220 and that diversity is bad

01:29:55.180 for the people who get

01:29:56.920 promoted because there are

01:29:59.560 people who are very very

01:30:01.060 talented who are black brown

01:30:02.640 gay whatever it is and they

01:30:04.200 come into a room and they

01:30:05.440 go and people like they may

01:30:07.080 not say it but they're

01:30:08.060 like all right there's a

01:30:09.480 box ticker yeah oh yeah

01:30:11.020 that's why I don't like

01:30:12.500 quotas yeah yeah well what I

01:30:16.220 want what I think people

01:30:18.300 need you know anyone from a

01:30:20.100 private sector background

01:30:21.100 take a step back what's the

01:30:23.140 problem we're trying to

01:30:23.980 solve what are the array of

01:30:25.860 insights that we need tacit

01:30:27.440 and formal and how do we do

01:30:29.260 that rationally populate that

01:30:30.880 team in order to really win in

01:30:33.860 a competitive marketplace I

01:30:35.260 I don't think people realize

01:30:36.880 the incredible you talked

01:30:38.600 about Dawkins evolution

01:30:40.360 requires diversity he may

01:30:42.500 have told you that genetic

01:30:43.480 unless there was genetic

01:30:44.660 mutation evolution needs

01:30:46.400 something to harness onto

01:30:47.500 diversity is absolutely

01:30:48.820 central but you need to get

01:30:49.780 it right and in the right

01:30:50.720 way and I totally agree that

01:30:52.200 on immigration and some of

01:30:54.200 DEI it's gone completely

01:30:55.780 crazy that but that's the

01:30:57.540 only thing anyone's pushing

01:30:58.460 no one's pushing against having

01:30:59.960 someone from an army

01:31:00.840 background advising on the

01:31:02.040 football management yeah so

01:31:03.480 some I have seen people

01:31:05.280 saying um and I think I do

01:31:08.140 worry it might go too far the

01:31:09.420 other way but no I don't I

01:31:10.400 don't think we're far away

01:31:11.200 from each other um but look

01:31:12.700 all right let's exploring

01:31:13.860 stop exploring the narcissism

01:31:15.320 of small differences we're

01:31:16.820 going to go to substack where

01:31:17.760 we're going to ask you

01:31:18.320 who said that who was the

01:31:19.040 first person to say that uh I

01:31:20.860 don't know

01:31:21.300 Ernest Cawley a British

01:31:23.060 anthropologist I think it's

01:31:24.220 one of the great phrases yes

01:31:25.500 yeah uh but actually I what I

01:31:27.880 I said that mockingly but

01:31:30.460 actually I think it's a very

01:31:31.600 valuable discussion we've had

01:31:32.900 because I think it just shows

01:31:34.140 that first and foremost

01:31:35.460 different people mean

01:31:36.360 different things by the word

01:31:37.680 diversity and I guess what I

01:31:40.620 mean by the word diversity is

01:31:41.940 DEI and what you mean

01:31:43.480 diversity is variance and

01:31:45.460 skills and background which

01:31:46.840 correspond to knowledge and

01:31:49.700 nobody certainly here would

01:31:51.080 argue against that with that

01:31:53.140 said we're going to go to

01:31:53.920 substack where we're going to

01:31:54.700 ask you questions from our

01:31:56.120 supporters including your

01:31:57.480 mother I'm sure she's

01:31:58.820 probably put in a question

01:31:59.860 before we do what's the one

01:32:01.660 thing we're not talking

01:32:02.640 about that we really should

01:32:03.640 be well I alluded to it

01:32:05.200 earlier existential risk

01:32:06.380 have you done a program on

01:32:07.240 that uh I wouldn't say

01:32:10.940 we've done a program on it

01:32:12.020 we've had small bits on it

01:32:13.440 because we talked about

01:32:14.340 learning from our mistakes

01:32:15.380 the problem with

01:32:15.960 existential risk is if you

01:32:17.240 wipe out the species

01:32:18.140 there's nothing to build

01:32:19.180 back from a nuclear war

01:32:21.180 could do it and it is a

01:32:22.240 risk to us proliferation

01:32:23.680 just mistakes I mean there's

01:32:27.380 many examples in the

01:32:28.480 post-war period where

01:32:29.480 there's been a blip on a

01:32:30.360 radar screen and you know

01:32:32.040 Boris Yeltsin's been given

01:32:33.380 a briefcase do we escalate

01:32:34.880 in retaliation it's turned

01:32:36.440 out to be a blip and not a

01:32:37.660 missile this could happen to

01:32:39.400 us and we don't think about

01:32:40.800 it I think sufficiently but

01:32:41.920 bacteriological warfare AI

01:32:43.740 and all of the others that are

01:32:45.500 coming down the pipeline I

01:32:47.480 don't think we talk or think

01:32:48.740 about this anything like

01:32:50.220 enough and this is one of

01:32:51.720 Musk who I as I say I admire

01:32:53.260 in some ways that's why he

01:32:54.720 wants us to get to Mars if

01:32:57.500 there's a meteor strike or

01:32:58.500 some other disaster that

01:32:59.640 afflicts Earth but Demis

01:33:01.320 Hassabis of DeepMind said

01:33:02.900 got to make sure the AI

01:33:04.060 doesn't get to Mars with us

01:33:05.360 and apparently Musk was

01:33:07.400 floored by that insight but

01:33:09.120 it's true we need to think

01:33:11.060 more about that

01:33:11.820 Fantastic well join us on

01:33:14.880 Substack where you'll be able

01:33:16.360 to ask your questions to

01:33:17.500 Matthew

01:33:17.780 Do you believe some

01:33:21.220 countries are better than

01:33:22.260 others at integrating new

01:33:23.580 immigrants if so which

01:33:25.260 countries are and what

01:33:26.600 explains their success

01:33:27.660 you

TRIGGERnometry - February 12, 2025

Matthew Syed on Cousin Marriage, Immigration and Diversity

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