TRIGGERnometry - Meet the Man Behind Project 2025

00:00:00.680 Donald Trump distanced himself from Project 2025 during the election.

00:00:04.780 What are the key divergences between the Trump administration now and where you'd like it to be?

00:00:11.480 I'm pausing because there really is very little, if anything.

00:00:16.240 The thing I'm most excited about, it's the greatest measure of success for this administration.

00:00:21.840 The restoration of the American dream.

00:00:24.480 As a Christian, that must worry you as well.

00:00:27.440 It doesn't.

00:00:28.380 What should worry me?

00:00:30.000 Are you worried that people are getting wrongly deported from this country and held in maximum security?

00:00:34.540 No, I haven't seen any evidence that any of that crew was wrongly deported.

00:00:39.520 We're in the middle of the second American revolution and it will be bloodless if the left allows it to be.

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00:01:14.700 Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:01:22.720 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

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00:01:43.260 Get tickets at murbush.com.

00:01:46.700 Dr. Kevin Roberts, thank you so much for coming on.

00:01:48.820 Man, that's an honour to be here. Thanks.

00:01:49.980 Thanks for having us at the Heritage Foundation.

00:01:52.420 That's kind of what we want to talk with you about, because the Heritage Foundation, obviously well-known in America in conservative circles, not well-known internationally particularly, until a few weeks before the last election, at which point Project 2025 became a huge international story, as this terrible, dark thing that was happening in the background of Donald Trump's election campaign.

00:02:14.960 I mean, he distanced himself from it, but you and your team are the people behind that policy document, 900 pages, and what we want to do is actually just find out what it is that you guys want.

00:02:26.740 What's your agenda? What is the objective with Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation more broadly?

00:02:32.520 Our agenda behind everything that we do is to revitalise self-governance, first and foremost for Americans, but also for everyone in the world, right?

00:02:39.460 We know that every human is imprinted with freedom and self-governance, and so to cut to it, we're proud of our work with Project 2025.

00:02:48.700 We understood, as I told the president at the time, that that had become unfairly sort of a political albatross that he needed to distance himself from, which was also honest, because our project transcends any particular presidential campaign.

00:03:01.520 But what President Trump is trying to achieve and what we were trying to achieve with Project 2025 is the same thing, and that is the dismantling of the administrative state.

00:03:12.000 And so during the political season, when the other side, the radical left, had nothing that they could run on, they were grasping for straws.

00:03:18.720 Ultimately, even politically, turning that into an albatross didn't work.

00:03:21.700 President Trump won. Here we are sitting here. Heritage is flourishing.

00:03:25.080 The 109 other groups that were part of it are flourishing.

00:03:27.120 Why? Because President Trump and Vice President Vance have the courage, they've got the spine, to actually implement this idea that you can dismantle the administrative state,

00:03:37.440 not just for merely saving money, but to give the American people their rights back, and it's a glorious time to be in the United States.

00:03:42.920 Well, yeah, you look excited. You look excited.

00:03:44.820 I suppose the question that I think represents the fair concern of people on the center and the center-left about that kind of worldview is,

00:03:55.140 like, I'm all for dismantling the administrative state.

00:03:57.660 I think the bureaucracies in Western countries have become so bloated, so unaccountable that that's a necessary thing.

00:04:04.260 I think that the fear that people have is that it's not a project about dismantling the administrative state,

00:04:10.620 but rather wielding it for your own purposes. That's the concern that people have.

00:04:15.360 Is there any truth to this that you would quite like to use the power of the state to, you know, implement the things that you care about?

00:04:21.100 Not really. I'll be clear. We pride ourselves in heritage in not evading questions, so the not really is not an evasion.

00:04:27.520 I mean, the two things. The first is the real impetus for Project 2025, really for the work that we've done since 1980

00:04:35.040 in advising presidents on policies and personnel, is to dismantle for the sake of power.

00:04:41.600 But the second thing is, if I were to steel man the argument of thoughtful people on the center-left,

00:04:46.700 maybe I could understand the concern that it also would lead to a particular conservative administration

00:04:54.920 wielding the power of the state. But if we were to agree to that at Heritage, it would be with this proviso

00:05:01.960 that that happened within the moral and legal limits of the president's authority.

00:05:07.880 What's unusual is that we finally have a president who's willing to do that.

00:05:12.380 We finally have a group of conservative governors like Ron DeSantis who are willing to do that.

00:05:17.600 And for our friends on the center-left, they haven't seen that.

00:05:20.900 And so what's fair about that concern isn't really the substance itself,

00:05:27.220 as much as the contrast that Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are in actually using power that they properly have.

00:05:34.760 And why are you so against big government? Because this is something that gets spoken about again and again,

00:05:40.120 particularly in right-wing circles. What is it about big government that you think needs to be dismantled?

00:05:47.000 The history shows, certainly in the United States, I think across the world, that the larger government

00:05:53.540 becomes, the more power that it accrues to itself and centralizes, the less freedom and self-governance

00:05:59.680 people have. I think it's really important to make a distinction. I often make this distinction here

00:06:04.120 in the United States that heritage is a conservative, not a libertarian entity, which is to say,

00:06:10.280 to be just a little sarcastic about our libertarian friends, we're not anti-government.

00:06:14.300 We want government to exist. We understand that it serves a role. In other words, government needs

00:06:18.480 to be right-sized from our vantage point. The United States federal government, when President Trump

00:06:23.960 took office, had nearly two and a half million federal employees. It's the largest it's ever been.

00:06:28.100 It's the most expensive it's ever been. You also have the benefit, by the way, of saving money

00:06:31.560 when you reduce the size of government. But the real reason to do so is because government is doing

00:06:37.320 the job that individuals and mediating institutions of civil society ought to be doing. But the other

00:06:43.540 thing is, legally, constitutionally within our system, this unofficial fourth branch of government,

00:06:49.640 the administrative state through the executive branch, is actually doing the function that Congress

00:06:54.260 has, which is to make laws. So our biggest problem with centralized government, in addition to taking

00:07:00.020 some of the power away from the people, is that it quite literally is doing rulemaking. It is doing

00:07:04.860 lawmaking. That's properly the role of the United States Congress. Both Republicans and Democrats,

00:07:10.660 to be fair, are responsible for giving away this power from Congress to the executive branch.

00:07:16.380 What President Trump is doing, what we've been working on at Heritage, is to actually offer a

00:07:21.080 corrective to what has been a 60-, 70-year project of doing the work of the people.

00:07:25.800 And Kevin, how do you ensure that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? Because it's very

00:07:30.780 easy to be evangelical about this and go, small government, slash this, slash this. But we all

00:07:36.180 know that actually there are government departments that do a lot of good and are, in fact, highly

00:07:41.360 necessary. The private sector simply can't do it.

00:07:45.160 There are a few. So let's keep in mind that there's a hell of a lot more bathwater than there

00:07:50.520 is baby. And we've only gotten started with getting rid of all of the excesses. Government,

00:07:56.980 federal government could probably be half its size, probably smaller. But to be fair to your

00:08:02.540 very fair question, sometimes what people on the center or center left will say, well, what about

00:08:08.160 the scientists? What about the people who are really academically credentialed and they're doing

00:08:13.040 important research? It speaks to the fair point about this regarding competence. Well, we want

00:08:18.240 competent people in government. So while there might be a difference of opinion about how many

00:08:23.240 departments need to exist, those that the American people agree ought to continue to exist ought to

00:08:28.140 have very competent people. They ought to have experts. It's just that there needs to be a lot

00:08:32.020 fewer of them. And so what we see the current administration doing is actually eliminating a lot

00:08:38.120 of positions. They might be filled with very good people, but those particular positions in a variety

00:08:43.820 of departments, we'll talk about the education department, for example, simply should not be done

00:08:49.060 by a bureaucrat in Washington. So let me just posit that every one of those people who's done those jobs

00:08:54.940 is a good person. I'm actually very happy to posit that. We wish them no ill. It's not appropriate for

00:09:00.840 the federal government to assess the American people attacks, take that money, bring it to Washington,

00:09:07.060 and then send it back to the states and local governments, and then tell us that somehow they're going to

00:09:12.260 improve education. So much so that after spending trillions of dollars on the education department

00:09:17.880 since its creation in 1979, all we have to show for it is that 25% of the money that the education

00:09:24.760 department collects goes to the classroom. And therefore, at best, at best, all the education

00:09:31.980 department has done is keep American education mediocre. If you take that approach and you go

00:09:36.880 department by department, even in situations where you're not eliminating the entire department,

00:09:41.860 which is what the Trump administration wants to do with education, you're eliminating certain

00:09:45.940 agencies. I think over four or five, 10 years that you're going to right size this government.

00:09:51.080 I was going to say, look, when it comes to the Department of Education, I was a teacher for 12

00:09:56.140 years, so I know a little bit about it, obviously not in the American system. But you have a very real

00:10:00.620 problem in this country. You have a 79% literacy rate. The UK, by comparison, has a 99%. And when you

00:10:06.820 consider that it's the richest country in the world, there is something desperately wrong going on.

00:10:10.900 It's a real travesty. I'm a fifth generation teacher. And as I tell people, I only went to

00:10:15.400 public schools or government funded schools. As a conservative, I think it's the most noble promise

00:10:20.120 of the American dream, which is that in spite of all of the pluralism in this country, diversity of

00:10:25.540 every kind, we guarantee or at least make the promise that every American infant when he or she is born is

00:10:33.340 going to have access to what should be the finest education in the world. We're not delivering on that

00:10:37.540 promise. And we're not delivering on that promise because we have an outdated system. And I think

00:10:41.700 that's really moving even from the education department specifically, but using it as an

00:10:46.900 instructive example. That's really what the Trump administration is trying to do, which is to say

00:10:51.480 this federal government, which maybe served the people well in the 1970s or 80s, even if you agree

00:10:57.000 with that, it really does have to be updated into the 21st century. And I think that the more time

00:11:03.200 goes on, when the American people see that education is likely to improve as a result of

00:11:08.480 these reforms, that the sky isn't going to fall because you're going to eliminate a certain

00:11:13.680 program in another department, and that these people who've been working for the federal government

00:11:18.220 find jobs in private industry, the more the American people will realize the truth of that

00:11:22.400 statement. And Kevin, to what extent is everything you're doing infused with the religious dimension?

00:11:27.360 Because the one thing we become aware more and more of as we spend more time here is how vast the

00:11:32.900 chasmism on that issue between Europe and America. Everything here can be traced back to religion,

00:11:40.360 it feels like to us. There's only many, many, many things.

00:11:43.500 Well, everything in life can.

00:11:46.360 Of course you would say that. But in terms of the politics of it,

00:11:51.120 what is the religious element of your agenda here at the Hershey Foundation?

00:11:56.580 In a strictly political sense, zero. That is to say, in terms of the policies that are being

00:12:02.560 formulated, the legal briefs that we help with, the laws that we help draft, these are secular

00:12:10.020 entities. But the larger points, this is sort of the little bit of jesting that we just had,

00:12:16.200 is that, and as Americans we understand this well for whatever reason, the context in which we operate

00:12:22.900 is because of our understanding of freedom, that God imprinted on each of our souls that we desire to

00:12:28.160 be free. The beautiful thing about the United States with its religious pluralism is that we

00:12:33.280 prioritize no particular religious tradition over another. But I think maybe what is one of the big

00:12:39.500 contrasts between the United States and Europe broadly is that we're very comfortable speaking

00:12:45.660 about faith in religion and public. And perhaps that's why that leads to some people drawing the

00:12:51.380 conclusion that someone working on politics and policy who also is very comfortable talking about

00:12:57.700 faith must therefore have a religious agenda, like a precise religious agenda.

00:13:02.320 See, it's an interesting point, but I don't think that's true. I think the reason that

00:13:05.280 it comes across that way is many issues that are settled issues in Europe are highly contested here.

00:13:11.320 Such as?

00:13:11.740 Such as abortion, such as the criminalization of pornography, which I understand is one of the

00:13:16.500 items on Project 2025, right? That's not really a debate we're having in Europe in anything like

00:13:21.780 the same way. And that's because there's a very strong Christian religious right here,

00:13:26.420 which sees those issues as critical. And because there's a very strong non-religious left that takes

00:13:33.160 those issues in the opposite direction to another extreme, some of us would argue. So I guess what

00:13:38.940 I'm asking is, to what extent are some of the policies like on abortion, like on pornography,

00:13:44.960 et cetera, are driven by that, as opposed to a kind of, you know, just broader political view?

00:13:52.320 Respectfully, you're making a logical assertion that isn't based on facts.

00:13:57.780 Oh, sure. Tell me more.

00:13:59.440 Very respectfully. On abortion and on criminalizing access to porn for people under 18,

00:14:06.680 both of those claims are being made from natural law. So as long as we can agree that natural law

00:14:12.440 exists, and although some people on the radical left say that that's sort of a religious trope,

00:14:16.520 it's not, philosophically.

00:14:18.480 Sorry to interrupt. I don't understand the term natural law.

00:14:23.500 The understanding that we all have as human beings that certain things are right and certain

00:14:29.820 things are wrong without necessarily having to step into a church for some pastor to tell you.

00:14:35.060 Just a very basic understanding. And so just to use the example, on the work that we're doing with

00:14:40.800 other organizations to eliminate the access to pornography by state legislatures through their

00:14:47.380 action, that is because of sociological research that shows the harm to young people when they have

00:14:53.280 access to pornography. Can I also make an argument based on Christianity? Sure. But my point is that

00:15:01.920 that work that we're doing, our motivation to do that work, doesn't originate with some

00:15:07.080 Christian agenda we have in politics. And you think it's bad based on the evidence as you're

00:15:12.240 That is correct. And the same thing can be said for abortion. Although certainly one of the reasons

00:15:18.380 that abortion is a controversy in the United States is because of the vibrancy of many people of faith

00:15:25.100 who are also willing to be active in politics. I don't deny that point. What I'm trying to clarify

00:15:30.200 is that it doesn't necessarily follow that because the United States has a bunch of Christians that

00:15:35.700 therefore, when they're working on abortion or they're working on age verification for pornography,

00:15:40.360 that it's exclusively because of their faith. There is great sociological evidence that on both of

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00:17:43.260 And this is where I come back to my point earlier about the administrative state, because I think a lot of

00:17:49.660 people on the left suspect that what you'd quite like to happen is for your boys to come into the

00:17:55.960 White House, and rather than kicking everything back to the states, to impose your view of those

00:18:01.360 issues, among others, on the entire country, as, by the way, they have done for some time.

00:18:05.700 Well, that would be inaccurate.

00:18:08.240 At Heritage, in fact, our big project in the long term, if we're revitalizing self-governance,

00:18:14.780 is to make the federal government a lot less powerful, to really remember and revitalize

00:18:20.580 the tradition of federalism in this country.

00:18:23.140 And so the federal government needs to be doing a lot fewer things than it's been doing,

00:18:26.860 and states need to do that.

00:18:28.960 There are exceptions to that, sure.

00:18:30.500 I mean, it goes back to your earlier question about what's the proper role and scope of the

00:18:35.100 government, how many of these agencies need to exist.

00:18:37.260 But ultimately, a success here in Washington would be not just limiting the size of the

00:18:43.880 federal government, but sending so much of those roles back to state legislation.

00:18:48.060 Sure.

00:18:48.480 But I guess I think you know what I'm getting at, or maybe I'm not communicating it clearly.

00:18:53.160 I think I'm just acting as a kind of like translator for the two big tribes in America as best I can,

00:18:59.380 perhaps, or maybe...

00:19:00.220 And I'm trying not to be obtuse.

00:19:01.900 Yes.

00:19:02.300 I know you're not.

00:19:03.240 I'm really grateful for that.

00:19:06.100 What I'm really getting at is the left, these are generalizations, but the left says abortion

00:19:14.460 is a human right because it's about women's autonomy, among other reasons.

00:19:18.820 Therefore, at the federal level, we must make sure that it's available everywhere.

00:19:22.760 And that got recently overturned, and it got sent back to the states.

00:19:26.160 Their fear is you want to do the opposite of that, which is come in and say, human life

00:19:33.820 is a human right.

00:19:35.380 Therefore, at the federal level, we must crack down this.

00:19:38.060 So we're not going to tolerate California having the abortion laws that it has.

00:19:41.740 We're going to tell them how to live their lives.

00:19:43.800 That's the concern.

00:19:44.780 And is that a legitimate concern for people, do you think?

00:19:47.080 I think philosophically, it's a fair representation.

00:19:52.040 And what I mean by that is two parts to this.

00:19:54.940 The first is what's feasible in politics right now is that states will do what you just described

00:20:02.620 with abortion.

00:20:03.740 And we believe that states should be doing that.

00:20:05.640 It's very clear from the Dobbs decision that states should be doing that.

00:20:09.720 The second part is that we're not going to become a fully pro-life country, which to be

00:20:16.080 really emphatic about, we do aspire to be in the United States.

00:20:20.300 We aspire to a country where there are no abortions.

00:20:24.360 That's not going to happen because of political action or policy action.

00:20:28.380 We believe that the solution to that is so far upstream of politics and policy.

00:20:34.020 It's in our personal decisions, the culture more broadly, perhaps from a revitalization of

00:20:39.220 religion.

00:20:39.920 It's just so separate from the political moment right now that I really mean it when I say

00:20:45.420 that that really shouldn't be a concern.

00:20:47.460 I mean, the feasibility of doing that at the federal level right now is literally zero.

00:20:53.760 It can be true that that's the situation.

00:20:56.700 And it can also be true that those of us who would like to end abortion recognize this may

00:21:01.260 be a hundred year project for us to reach hearts and minds and for Americans to wake

00:21:06.640 up one day and say that just individually, this isn't something that we want to do.

00:21:10.600 We do aspire to that, but it's separate from the political square.

00:21:13.980 And just correct me if I'm wrong.

00:21:15.300 One of the policies of the Heritage Foundation is that you want abortion capped at three month

00:21:22.320 term.

00:21:22.720 So you don't want it going to nine months, for example, which I believe is in New York and

00:21:28.960 L.A. and California.

00:21:30.420 That's correct.

00:21:31.300 And so to talk about what we think is feasible in the policy moment at the state level, the

00:21:37.980 so-called 15-week protection or limit is something that I think a lot of states can pass.

00:21:44.720 At Heritage, we would want that to be even more restrictive because, keep in mind, we do

00:21:48.760 believe that life begins at conception.

00:21:51.340 But probably for the next five or 10 years, that 15-week limit is what we're going to be

00:21:56.000 dealing with.

00:21:56.380 Okay.

00:21:56.720 What do you mean by more restrictive, Kevin?

00:21:58.260 Ideally, we would think that we would make it six weeks.

00:22:02.620 Six weeks.

00:22:03.860 Like the bill in Florida.

00:22:05.220 Okay.

00:22:05.520 Why six weeks?

00:22:06.660 Because we believe that not only is that a human life, but actually that human being's

00:22:11.880 life is viable outside the six weeks.

00:22:18.440 The difference between six weeks and 15 weeks is millions of lives.

00:22:21.980 And so we want to protect as many lives as we can.

00:22:24.240 And so we've been very supportive of the bill that was passed in Florida, a few other

00:22:29.540 states, which are six-week bills.

00:22:31.260 Okay.

00:22:31.860 And there's also a drug that you want banned and you want contraceptions banned that get

00:22:38.300 transmitted via the post or get sent via the post.

00:22:41.340 Is that correct?

00:22:41.900 We're very concerned about the abortion pills' negative health effects on women.

00:22:47.360 Okay.

00:22:47.720 And so I would like to think that there would be people who are proponents of the right

00:22:53.260 to abortion who also recognize, if you look at the data, that the damaging effects by some

00:22:59.900 women who use that are serious enough that there needs to be further review.

00:23:04.160 Okay.

00:23:04.540 So you think that there needs to be further review on it?

00:23:07.460 We're opposed to the bill, but we think at the very least that there ought to be an intellectually

00:23:11.400 honest conversation about the effects, the damaging effects on women who use it.

00:23:16.500 Kevin, why do you think the left in this country is so passionate about protecting what

00:23:21.560 they would call the right to have an abortion?

00:23:23.540 I think with all due respect to people with whom I disagree, I mean nothing personal to

00:23:31.260 them, that there is this philosophical evolution of hyper-individualism in which you realize that

00:23:42.260 representing their position best as I can, that your quote unquote rights have nothing to

00:23:51.740 do with the people you will bring into the world, your own children.

00:23:57.300 And that has become, at the same time that we've seen a decline in religiosity in the United

00:24:02.980 States, especially among certain segments of people who are left of center.

00:24:09.680 And I mean all of this respectfully, although I disagree with them, not a coincidence.

00:24:14.380 And so I think that, therefore, abortion or protecting abortion rights becomes almost a

00:24:22.480 quasi-religion for some people on that side.

00:24:27.120 And perhaps that's fine.

00:24:29.420 I disagree with the position.

00:24:31.220 But that's why when we were talking earlier about what's feasible and not feasible politically

00:24:36.840 or in terms of policy right now, I said that I think that it's important to remember that

00:24:41.820 fixing the abortion problem is going to be something so far upstream of the political square, this is

00:24:48.320 something that will have to be a matter of hearts and minds for people because it is such a deeply

00:24:53.420 held position.

00:24:54.060 It's very different than any other kind of public policy that I'm aware of.

00:24:57.360 So this isn't something that's going to be imposed from the top down?

00:25:00.500 That's infeasible right now.

00:25:03.440 What are you excited about?

00:25:05.120 The administrative state, look, I don't know many people who are center-center-right who are not

00:25:10.900 excited about the dismantling of the administrative state.

00:25:13.820 Now, look, I think there is probably, we saw it with the nuclear engineers and, you know,

00:25:17.840 there's going to be some things, it's going to be a bumpy road and things will have to be corrected

00:25:22.540 when things move this fast, that tends to happen.

00:25:24.820 What about the nuclear engineers?

00:25:26.440 Nuclear engineers are something that were people who were in charge of the nuclear codes that got

00:25:30.440 sacked, fired, and then they had to be rehired back.

00:25:32.860 Did I, is this not a real thing?

00:25:36.480 I don't.

00:25:37.240 It's possible.

00:25:38.360 There's so much stuff flying around now, I don't know what to believe, really.

00:25:41.100 Well, I'm not, you're certainly being honest in representing what you've read,

00:25:46.700 I'm just not sure that what you read is accurate.

00:25:48.600 Okay.

00:25:49.060 I think it's fair to say, from everything we know about rapid change that happens at scale,

00:25:55.480 that it's not always going to be universally exactly the way that you might want it to happen

00:26:00.280 and mistakes will get made.

00:26:01.520 Is that fair?

00:26:01.980 It's sort of like the creation of the education department, which actually has created a situation

00:26:06.280 that in some schools in this country, zero students, zero students are proficient in

00:26:12.580 math and reading and forth.

00:26:13.740 I will steal your argument even more for you.

00:26:16.060 I will say that when you're removing a cancerous tumor, you are also potentially able to do damage

00:26:23.320 that you don't intend.

00:26:24.240 Potentially.

00:26:24.760 Right.

00:26:25.020 And we know that that can happen.

00:26:27.100 Right.

00:26:27.420 So administrative status side, what else are you excited about that is happening or is going to

00:26:32.480 happen over the next three or three and a half years?

00:26:34.400 The thing I'm most excited about, I mean, and I'm light years more excited about than even the

00:26:39.340 administrative state.

00:26:40.560 It's the greatest measure of success for this administration, the restoration of the American

00:26:46.140 dream.

00:26:47.260 And I know that maybe that sounds trite.

00:26:49.260 Maybe it sounds political.

00:26:50.840 I really don't mean it either way.

00:26:52.940 I mean it just as, as an American citizen, as, as a husband and father of four kids.

00:26:59.180 I was really concerned in the last year or two when Heritage was doing focus groups of

00:27:06.600 people across the political spectrum, but especially people who were center of center

00:27:10.420 left.

00:27:10.760 We're trying to figure out not just how to speak with them about issues, you know, for

00:27:14.620 the sake of political wins, much more importantly, because remember, we're a think tank trying

00:27:19.680 to understand them.

00:27:20.920 Why is it that abortion is so important to you?

00:27:23.080 Why is it that other issues are the most common thread was a depressing one?

00:27:28.180 And it was that the American dream is dead and, and liberal people is real quick, liberal

00:27:34.240 people, conservative people, people in the center, black men, Hispanic women for the most

00:27:39.340 radical leftist person who hates what heritage does.

00:27:44.040 I want them to believe the American dream is alive.

00:27:46.480 And the reason is that it means that economic prosperity is possible.

00:27:52.340 It means that education success is possible.

00:27:55.200 Different people define that different ways.

00:27:57.900 What's your definition of the American dream?

00:27:59.460 Let's finish that thought, if I may, and then I'll answer that question.

00:28:02.180 What Trump and Vance are doing with this pace of change is showing the American people that

00:28:07.560 it's possible not just to right size government, but that we can do that for the purpose

00:28:13.060 of all of us or a majority of us waking up one day and saying the American dream is alive.

00:28:18.120 We may still vote differently, but we're at least going to believe that it's alive.

00:28:20.880 That's a good thing.

00:28:21.540 It's healthy for civil society.

00:28:23.400 I believe the American dream, to answer your question, is a belief that anything is possible

00:28:32.080 in the greatest country in the world.

00:28:36.260 Sorry.

00:28:36.700 And anything is possible because of the opportunities created with government out of the way, but

00:28:45.960 most importantly, because civil society is healthy, because my neighbors who may have different

00:28:52.780 political signs in their yards have no problem with me succeeding as a conservative, nor I for

00:28:57.840 them as liberals.

00:28:58.720 And that every American child can wake up and say, I have access to a great education.

00:29:05.780 What I do with is up to me.

00:29:07.340 I have access to create a business, to be successful professionally, but that I also understand that

00:29:15.060 I owe this country and of all other countries, the United Kingdom, a great debt.

00:29:20.260 And I want to pay that back.

00:29:21.600 But, and look, what you say is enormously inspirational.

00:29:24.340 And there's a part of me as a British person that feels deeply uncomfortable.

00:29:29.340 That wasn't my intention.

00:29:31.100 You're upbeat tones.

00:29:32.520 But when I hear the words, anything is possible, the cynic in me goes, really, what do you mean

00:29:38.560 by that?

00:29:38.940 I saw you twitch.

00:29:39.760 Yeah, I did.

00:29:40.440 I did.

00:29:40.800 I can't help it.

00:29:41.640 You know, we don't have dreams in the United Kingdom.

00:29:43.860 Well, we want to help you restore this.

00:29:46.060 I get your question.

00:29:47.100 Um, what I, what I mean by that is that if someone takes initiative and whether through

00:29:55.720 education or business, there's nothing in the system, there's nothing structurally that

00:30:01.700 will stand in the way of that person's initiative and sustained work ethic, allowing them to

00:30:09.480 succeed.

00:30:10.400 And in that situation, really anything is possible.

00:30:14.400 We've had presidents in this country.

00:30:16.200 You think about Andrew Jackson, orphaned.

00:30:18.460 He taught himself the law.

00:30:20.200 He had no reason to ever expect that he would be president of the United States.

00:30:24.060 Or there are modern examples of young men and women, for whatever reason, you'd think

00:30:28.580 they have no reason to be aspirational, but they're going to be very successful.

00:30:32.340 I understand outside the United States, this sounds like poppycock, but it is the heart

00:30:37.700 of the American dream.

00:30:39.260 I completely agree with you.

00:30:40.640 And one of the reasons that I'm actually genuinely worried about America, cards on the table, I

00:30:45.240 love America.

00:30:45.740 I love coming here.

00:30:46.620 I always learn many things.

00:30:48.660 I love the American people.

00:30:50.120 But I see as well that there's a sadness here because I walk around and we are pretty

00:30:58.520 decent salaries.

00:30:59.700 And I'm walking around and I'm going into supermarkets.

00:31:02.780 I'm going into coffee shops.

00:31:04.300 I'm going into sandwich stores.

00:31:05.640 And I'm thinking to myself, how does the average American afford this?

00:31:10.320 This is insane, the prices.

00:31:12.660 Yeah.

00:31:12.840 And what's interesting with your focusing on that, for most Americans, the American dream

00:31:18.740 is rooted in economic prosperity.

00:31:20.980 Absolutely.

00:31:21.340 And that's why, in addition to what has been, I think, a generation-long malaise among Americans,

00:31:26.880 it's very sad that I think this concern really reached a fever pitch around the presidential

00:31:32.520 election of 2024 because of inflation and the costs that you see going around.

00:31:38.320 And the reality is that we haven't been able to fix that yet.

00:31:40.960 I mean, I think Trump and Vance are well on their way.

00:31:43.340 But if you are newly married and you're trying to buy a home, say, near where we're sitting

00:31:48.300 in northern Virginia, it's highly unlikely you're going to be able to do that.

00:31:54.080 And so in that case, both spouses are college educated.

00:31:57.520 They've got great jobs.

00:31:58.640 Maybe they work on Capitol Hill.

00:31:59.940 Heck, maybe they work in Heritage where we pay as much as we can.

00:32:03.300 People make good salaries.

00:32:04.460 They still can't save enough to make the requisite down payment on a mortgage that's going to

00:32:11.620 have a higher interest rate.

00:32:13.000 And fixing that is essential for us restoring the American dream.

00:32:17.580 And it's not going to be able to be done in just a few months.

00:32:19.660 So how do you fix that is the question.

00:32:21.260 Because to me, we can talk about abortion.

00:32:23.580 We can talk about all these other things.

00:32:25.700 Pornography, which I completely agree with you, by the way.

00:32:27.920 I don't think anybody under the age of 18 should be able to access it.

00:32:30.720 To me, this is the key question for our times.

00:32:33.980 Not just for your society, but also for us in Europe and across the world.

00:32:38.200 Yeah, I agree entirely.

00:32:39.160 And I can tell you that that is President Trump's zealous focus.

00:32:42.460 It's the other issues that come up.

00:32:44.660 He almost, while he may agree or disagree, the focus is on what you just described.

00:32:50.500 Because it's something that touches every one of us, regardless of what we think about

00:32:53.860 age verification on porn or abortion.

00:32:57.000 And so the way you fix it is start by doing what the Trump administration is doing.

00:33:01.120 By beginning to cut the costs of government.

00:33:04.700 Government spending isn't the sole factor in inflation, but it is a driving factor in it.

00:33:09.720 And so this is a really important step.

00:33:11.720 The second thing is that we have to understand that so many of our public policies, and this

00:33:16.440 is where Congress will come in, actually eliminate some of the factors that allow us to be more

00:33:22.160 financially stable.

00:33:23.260 We have six or seven different disincentives in our safety net programs toward being married.

00:33:29.400 We know from politically objective, nonpartisan, sociological research that the way you achieve

00:33:36.120 success, it's what my friend Brad Wilcox at the University of Virginia calls the success

00:33:39.960 sequence, is to go to college, to get married, have children.

00:33:45.640 And the research, the correlation between those steps, and then being able to provide some

00:33:50.880 money to afford home is really strong.

00:33:53.700 But you've got to be able to start controlling some of the external costs that come from government.

00:33:57.700 Yeah, in particular, building new homes.

00:33:59.980 Oh, it's vital.

00:34:01.000 Yeah.

00:34:01.320 And so what is Trump going to do with that?

00:34:03.720 Well, the single most important thing that he can do, the lever that's most powerful that

00:34:09.500 he firmly has both hands on, is the expense of government.

00:34:12.400 Now, as it relates to starting new homes, we'll see what the Housing and Urban Development

00:34:17.220 Secretary, Scott Turner, has in mind.

00:34:19.520 At Heritage, we want as much of that to be from private enterprise as possible.

00:34:23.260 But I can tell you from, this sounds like an anecdotal example, but I think it's something

00:34:28.280 that is endemic across the United States.

00:34:30.700 When I was living and working in Austin, Texas, before I came to Heritage, we were trying to

00:34:35.460 figure out at the think tank that I was leading then, how we could begin to improve the

00:34:41.220 homelessness problem, and to do so in a way that acknowledged that, as conservatives, proper

00:34:47.040 role of government to help homeless people.

00:34:49.680 But how can you start integrating into that potential solution private investment so that

00:34:55.940 some of these men and women, if they're able to, could get a part-time job and then a full-time

00:35:00.180 job or trying to put them on the success sequence cycle?

00:35:03.080 What stood in the way of that, I was actually surprised to see, was a rule created by Housing

00:35:10.800 and Urban Development where you couldn't do that, where those organizations, those nonprofit

00:35:15.760 organizations, whether they were organizations of faith or not, simply couldn't have that

00:35:20.100 role.

00:35:20.740 Something as simple as that, which I understand could come from rulemaking change by the HUD

00:35:26.320 secretary, could be really helpful.

00:35:28.200 And then our theory of change at Heritage is, you go tell that story and then you try

00:35:32.960 to scale it.

00:35:33.940 Kevin, one of the concerns that I think a lot of people have across the West, and it's true

00:35:38.200 in America too, is that partly as a result of the death of what you guys call the American

00:35:42.540 dream or upward mobility or whatever you want to call it, is that young men in particular

00:35:47.880 becoming very radicalized.

00:35:49.880 And so I think a lot of older conservatives think they're moving back to conservatism.

00:35:55.480 And there is an extreme tinge to some of that that's going on.

00:36:00.160 Do you get a sense of that?

00:36:01.440 And do you have any thoughts on how that might be addressed?

00:36:03.780 I think I follow your question, but what specifically would be an example of radicalized?

00:36:08.400 Just so I answer your question.

00:36:10.660 So anecdotally speaking to a lot of younger people, they are less about small government.

00:36:17.220 There is an anger and a punitive desire there that it's like we have been denied what we are

00:36:22.920 owed.

00:36:23.260 We have been denied the American dream and we're going to punish the people who denied

00:36:26.500 it to us.

00:36:27.120 Follow you entirely.

00:36:27.840 Thank you.

00:36:28.640 That actually goes back to your earlier question that as we were trying to steel man the argument

00:36:33.360 of friends on the center left about conservatives being in power and using federal government,

00:36:38.020 one of the concerns we have at Heritage is that our side not fall into the trap you just

00:36:43.780 described.

00:36:44.180 That is to say, if in fact, as we believe 100% of the heritage, that the motivation for

00:36:51.280 the project of dismantling the administrative state is to right-size the federal government,

00:36:58.260 that we remember that you're not right-sizing the federal government if you then in turn use

00:37:02.880 it as a cudgel against the radical left.

00:37:06.220 Secondly, if we're going to end the weaponization of the Department of Justice against those of us

00:37:11.320 who are political conservatives, you don't end that by using it as a weapon against the

00:37:16.300 radical left.

00:37:17.500 It is a real dynamic inside the broader center-right movement that there are some younger folks,

00:37:25.300 not many, who are so frustrated with good reason that they want to figuratively, figuratively

00:37:32.380 burn it all down.

00:37:33.480 I mean, that's the phrase, right?

00:37:35.080 And so at Heritage, what we try to do using data, hopefully using some persuasiveness, is

00:37:40.300 show that actually you can begin restoring the American dream, you can make the center-right

00:37:45.600 policy project effective again, but you're going to need time.

00:37:50.140 But it's a race against time, just to be really blunt.

00:37:52.820 It's a race against time because these same very thoughtful, normal, nonviolent people who

00:37:57.960 just say, let's go take it out politically against our political opponents aren't living

00:38:03.500 the American dream.

00:38:04.340 They're having a hard time finding homes.

00:38:05.680 So I have great empathy for them, but I also believe that that explains why President Trump

00:38:11.580 is moving so quickly.

00:38:12.920 Because he recognizes it's a desperate situation.

00:38:17.520 For some people, they see it as a desperate situation.

00:38:21.760 I'm really optimistic about all of this, though.

00:38:24.360 And so acknowledging the reality, being candid about that, I mean, as a way of saying, yes,

00:38:30.040 we get it.

00:38:31.160 And for the first time, some of these folks who are, you know, as you say, are radicalized,

00:38:35.800 they're actually very normal people, are saying, OK, I like the pace that Trump is taking because

00:38:40.520 I can see for the first time in my life, we're not sending tens of thousands of American soldiers

00:38:45.940 to some far-flung empire-building place.

00:38:48.560 We're actually focused on our domestic politics.

00:38:51.620 And I think that's healthy.

00:38:53.000 Yeah.

00:38:53.100 I think one of the things that actually will give more and more people belief in this administration

00:38:57.620 is if they can fulfill Trump's promise of bringing back industry to the U.S.

00:39:04.400 I think there is a good argument to make that's the single most important thing that would make

00:39:09.340 people more hopeful.

00:39:10.380 Yeah, because if you look at a lot of the problems that the U.S. is facing, it's like in our country

00:39:14.660 of the U.K., it's deindustrialization.

00:39:17.000 It's communities that were built around a factory, a plant, a mine, whatever it may be,

00:39:22.280 that it then subsequently closed due to, most of the time, globalization, and they had the

00:39:27.440 literal heart ripped out of their community.

00:39:29.480 I think it's really well said.

00:39:30.760 It's the J.D. Vance story, right?

00:39:32.600 Yeah.

00:39:33.100 It's the story of so many millions of Americans and Brits, and it's also why immigration,

00:39:40.820 particularly illegal immigration, but even immigration writ large, has to be part, or reforming

00:39:45.580 that has to be part of this conversation, because what these same very thoughtful fellow Americans

00:39:50.560 are saying is, I don't even have access to the American dream in the community where

00:39:55.220 I grew up because of these policies, because of globalization, and the response they've

00:40:01.160 gotten, not just from the left, but also from the political right for two generations is,

00:40:06.440 well, move.

00:40:07.560 Yeah.

00:40:07.660 And what they're saying is, we like our community.

00:40:11.600 We want to see our community revitalized.

00:40:13.480 And I think what J.D. Vance in particular has brought to the table is a reminder for all

00:40:17.920 of us, myself included.

00:40:19.300 We at Heritage included.

00:40:20.820 That's the appropriate approach to this.

00:40:22.720 And it may not be that in every single one of those communities, we're going to be able

00:40:25.800 to put policy and capital together and revitalize them.

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00:42:02.740 So how are you going to, how is Heritage going to make that happen or support Trump's vision

00:42:07.980 in helping that happen?

00:42:08.920 Is it tariffs?

00:42:09.960 Is it putting pressure on companies?

00:42:11.860 Is it saying to companies, come over here, you're going to get favorable tax discounts,

00:42:16.040 et cetera, et cetera?

00:42:16.920 A lot of factors there, but I'll key in on those that are most prominent in the news.

00:42:22.180 Let's take tariffs, for example.

00:42:24.140 Probably for most people to understand why a right of center public policy organization's

00:42:29.600 initial response to tariffs would be friendly skepticism.

00:42:34.940 Because we came of age, this organization came of age.

00:42:38.220 I, as a conservative, came of age at a time when tariff was a four-letter word.

00:42:43.100 You think about the age of Reagan.

00:42:44.700 But then what has happened is that we, through our research, we have come to understand, as

00:42:50.340 President Trump has shown, that, in fact, we don't live in a free market.

00:42:54.500 We would like to.

00:42:55.340 So that's an aspirational vision.

00:42:58.640 But what I mean by that is Americans are paying far more in tariffs to other countries than

00:43:03.020 we have assessed on others.

00:43:04.160 And so the bottom line is that one part of this is President Trump's emphasis on reciprocal

00:43:09.200 tariffs, which we think is going to lead to private investment, re-industrializing more

00:43:17.260 American communities.

00:43:18.340 And then where there's a real national security concern, like with steel, we think there are

00:43:23.920 huge opportunities there.

00:43:25.120 And as conservatives, not libertarians at Heritage, we rather like that.

00:43:28.500 We, as I remind people, part of the history of our movement isn't just Edmund Burke, but

00:43:33.040 also Alexander Hamilton, our first Treasury Secretary, who's really the godfather of using

00:43:37.680 tariffs in an appropriate way.

00:43:39.140 And so to sum up here, I'm much more optimistic now than I was two or three years ago about

00:43:46.340 the role of tariffs in this.

00:43:48.000 Because two or three years ago, we were trying to figure out at Heritage, well, exactly what

00:43:52.460 do you mean when you say that you're going to impose tariffs?

00:43:55.420 And in this case, in a very limited way, I think that the usage of them will be successful.

00:44:00.600 And what do you think is going to happen with the left over the next few years?

00:44:05.320 Because it seems like, first of all, Donald Trump is not hugely popular.

00:44:11.420 He's just one, but he has a lot of popularity, but he's not hugely popular.

00:44:14.640 But the Democrats, I mean, they're on the floor, right?

00:44:18.240 Their brand is completely toxic.

00:44:20.820 We just, we interviewed Charlemagne de Garde recently, the most American name, by the

00:44:25.480 way, for anybody.

00:44:26.120 It's amazing.

00:44:26.500 And, you know, he was talking about the fact that he voted for Kamala Harris, but the Democrat

00:44:32.220 brand is terrible.

00:44:33.560 They're losers were his exact words, right?

00:44:35.240 But the Democratic brand is so bad that it even makes the good candidates suck.

00:44:41.740 And why is it bad?

00:44:43.080 Why has it got as bad as it has?

00:44:44.560 Because they're losers.

00:44:45.120 It's just that simple.

00:44:48.140 They're losers.

00:44:49.040 They lost.

00:44:49.880 Like, they lost.

00:44:50.600 And they didn't just lose an election.

00:44:52.680 They lost the people.

00:44:54.640 They lost broad swaths of their base, you know, whether it's Latinos, whether it's, you

00:45:00.960 know, Black people.

00:45:02.020 Like, you know, they lost a large part of their base.

00:45:05.880 Even white women.

00:45:06.820 It's just like, yo, they lost a large part of their base because nobody's buying what

00:45:11.720 it is that they're selling.

00:45:13.300 And I think a number of one of the biggest reasons for that is simply because they don't

00:45:18.160 understand what's going on with everyday working class people.

00:45:21.800 We see people burning down Teslas every now and again.

00:45:25.480 So how is that going to develop?

00:45:28.440 Do you think you're going to face an increasingly violent resistance or do you think they're going

00:45:34.920 to regroup and start to see sense in terms of some of the things you're talking about?

00:45:39.220 I think we'll see both.

00:45:41.040 And I think that'll be chronological.

00:45:42.240 So let me explain.

00:45:43.000 I've spent a lot of time not just thinking, but speaking about this.

00:45:46.000 And in fact, last year said that we're in the middle of the second American revolution

00:45:49.580 and it will be bloodless if the left allows it to be.

00:45:52.480 And they purposefully distorted that to make it sound as if I was calling for violence when

00:45:56.740 quite the opposite.

00:45:58.260 I was saying, no, our plans for dismantling the administrative state, reforming how government

00:46:02.760 works are so easy and nonviolent.

00:46:05.920 But that's such a threat to their power that there would be some segments of the left, not

00:46:10.920 all liberals for sure, but some segments of the left that would respond in violence.

00:46:15.240 And that is precisely what's happened.

00:46:17.180 And so if you look at the destruction of Teslas, you look at some explicit calls for violence.

00:46:21.760 One member of Congress in the last two weeks said, quote unquote, we are at war.

00:46:26.260 You see exactly what's happening.

00:46:28.180 The radical left and why I insist on using that term for some of the left of center movement

00:46:34.240 in the United States are the descendants of the Jacobins of the French Revolution.

00:46:39.800 And this story for them will end only one way in a political sense.

00:46:44.020 And that is they're going to at least call for more violence or disruption, whatever they

00:46:47.800 want to call it.

00:46:48.600 But we're already seeing it literally.

00:46:50.660 Obviously, we all lament that.

00:46:52.520 Having said that, that's going to become really unpopular, more unpopular than it is now,

00:46:58.420 because they're going to draw the connection that, in fact, the more they are violent,

00:47:03.200 they're going to lead to the popularity of Donald Trump and J.D. Vance, who are very normal guys

00:47:10.120 restoring normalcy to the United States.

00:47:12.520 And so at some point, I don't know that it will be for our midterm elections in 2026.

00:47:17.220 I don't even know if it's going to be in time for the presidential election of 2028.

00:47:21.420 I think you're going to see a revitalization of the center left left of this country.

00:47:27.380 I hesitate to give them political advice, but they need to find not just political candidates,

00:47:33.200 a standard bearer, but a group of those who could be governors, members of Congress, who

00:47:39.480 talk about the American dream, about how their policies can lead to a revitalization of that.

00:47:45.500 No talk about violence, to state the obvious.

00:47:48.520 And actually, even very little talk about how, as they would put it, deplorable Donald Trump

00:47:53.120 is, but more about the positive nature of their vision.

00:47:56.400 It's sort of like one of my political heroes, who was on the political left, Daniel Patrick

00:48:00.880 Moynihan.

00:48:01.840 You go back, if the left can go back to Moynihan, who was thoughtful and winsome, a lot of fun

00:48:07.560 to be around, they can find a man or woman who does that.

00:48:11.040 I think that they're back in business politically.

00:48:12.940 But the problem for them right now is that the real violent crowd, which is a minority

00:48:17.280 of them, I want to be really clear, it is a minority of them, but they're getting all

00:48:20.860 the news.

00:48:21.360 They're creating a lot of damage.

00:48:22.680 A lot of us who are political conservatives have to adjust our daily lives as a result.

00:48:27.440 That's going to get worse before it gets better.

00:48:31.040 And it's really, it's a good point.

00:48:33.520 And also, I don't think the left, and I could use this term broadly, either in my country or

00:48:39.480 in your country, did enough to condemn the riots, the vandalism, the abuse, the intimidation

00:48:47.420 and the bullying tactics.

00:48:48.720 I couldn't agree more.

00:48:49.540 And I really, I have fewer and fewer really left of center friends.

00:48:56.040 I'm happy to be friends with them, but they don't like what I do for a living.

00:48:59.240 But I say, I mentioned that because I really do mean this respectfully and in the spirit

00:49:03.660 of civility.

00:49:05.460 The more they can be focused on condemning what is nonsense.

00:49:09.780 They're really quick to condemn nonsense on the right, as we are at Heritage.

00:49:13.180 That they apply that to the left, the sooner they will see political success.

00:49:19.880 But I actually think their political situation, the number of seats they have in Congress,

00:49:24.200 the number of governorships they control, will decrease until and unless they're willing

00:49:28.960 to do that.

00:49:29.520 The good news, though, is the majority of left of center Americans are very peaceful, nonviolent

00:49:35.520 people.

00:49:36.200 They just need to be focused on that and the policy vision they have.

00:49:39.980 I might disagree with, but I would defend, as much as anyone else, their right to articulate.

00:49:45.020 And you said you're quick to condemn the nonsense on the right.

00:49:48.160 What is the nonsense on the right that needs condemning?

00:49:50.660 Well, if there were violent protests on the right, we would condemn it at Heritage.

00:49:55.720 So my point is that this is something that should be condemned in the spirit of civility,

00:50:00.100 period.

00:50:00.720 Anything else beyond that?

00:50:04.280 Nothing else comes to mind.

00:50:05.500 If there's something on your mind, I'm happy to answer the question.

00:50:07.320 I'm just trying to think.

00:50:08.860 I'm just making a general point that there's a consistency in how we operate.

00:50:13.100 Yes.

00:50:13.580 Yeah.

00:50:13.820 I guess what I'm asking is what is it that you do condemn?

00:50:17.040 Well, the reason I said what I did is because it's so apparent that 100%, very close to 100%

00:50:24.220 of the violence we're seeing as a result of politics today is on the left.

00:50:28.300 If there were some kooky person on the right, and note the singular there, this is how uncommon

00:50:33.620 it is, who was making death threats on someone on the left, we would condemn that.

00:50:37.780 It's really important to understand that it seems to be systemic on the left.

00:50:44.140 Yes.

00:50:44.640 I actually do agree with you on that.

00:50:46.460 I guess the obvious question would be something like January the 6th, which whether you think

00:50:50.640 that was an insurrection, which I don't.

00:50:52.540 It was not.

00:50:53.140 It was a riot, right?

00:50:55.460 I wouldn't even go that far.

00:50:56.300 So what would you say it was?

00:50:58.240 I think doors opened and all but five or six of the people there were nonviolent.

00:51:03.620 The knuckleheads who went beyond that needed to be put in prison.

00:51:07.360 And I said that at the time, but it was not an insurrection or a riot.

00:51:12.740 It actually was very peaceful.

00:51:14.300 Interesting.

00:51:14.620 So if a bunch of leftist protesters entered the Capitol building, some of whom were violent,

00:51:21.140 but the majority were not, would you?

00:51:22.440 If everything were the same, except that they were left, I would say exactly the same thing.

00:51:26.160 The five or six who were knuckleheads who were instigating violence should be in prison,

00:51:29.840 and those who were there peacefully should be treated as such.

00:51:32.660 Fair enough.

00:51:33.220 Okay.

00:51:34.100 Kevin, there's one thing that I really want to talk to you about, which is immigration.

00:51:37.500 And that was a central component of Project 2025.

00:51:42.640 And for good reason, because it was a central, it was one of the most important topics during

00:51:47.420 the election.

00:51:48.440 So what is your vision for immigration into this country?

00:51:51.880 Because immigration has always been, like you said, a part of the American dream.

00:51:56.300 There'd be a hell of a lot less immigration in the near term.

00:52:00.280 We have the highest percentage of non-Native born people in the United States in our history,

00:52:05.780 which is really saying something.

00:52:08.440 That claim or desire that is to reduce immigration in the near term can be true,

00:52:13.920 and it can also be true, as it is, that I and Heritage are very pro-immigrant.

00:52:19.460 In fact, all of these folks are human persons.

00:52:22.100 We're all equal in the eyes of God.

00:52:23.920 Sorry for the religious reference.

00:52:25.720 I want to be on brand.

00:52:28.600 But I do mean it.

00:52:29.480 All kidding aside.

00:52:30.900 It's very important to posit that.

00:52:33.040 But we have not just a policy problem and not just an economic problem,

00:52:36.420 which is the least of my concerns, we have a civil society problem where the very thing

00:52:42.200 that causes someone, understandably, to want to move to the United States legally or illegally

00:52:47.440 is being undermined by not just the illegal immigration, but the sheer scale of immigration

00:52:55.080 over the last four years.

00:52:56.560 By that, this is what I mean, that there is a certain pace at which a certain number of people

00:53:03.960 any society can absorb and integrate into our society.

00:53:07.400 I don't have to explain this to the two of you.

00:53:09.180 You understand well.

00:53:09.840 And so what we're saying at Heritage is, let's take some interlude from this huge number even

00:53:16.420 of legal immigration, and let's be sure that we can assimilate and integrate, honoring Native

00:53:21.340 cultures.

00:53:21.740 I'd be the first to argue for that, but also to be able to restore the American dream and

00:53:25.500 address some of these other policy issues.

00:53:27.660 Unless we do that, we're going to have a real, not just political, but I think social and

00:53:32.240 cultural tender box here that will constantly fester, sort of like a cancer on the American

00:53:37.540 dream.

00:53:37.960 And so ultimately, if we had our druthers at Heritage, we would suspend the most immigration

00:53:43.080 for a year or two, let the society absorb those folks who have come in.

00:53:47.320 We're not going to be able to deport all of those who came here illegally, although I wish

00:53:51.760 that we could.

00:53:53.120 And once we get to that particular point, two years, five years down the road, we ought to

00:53:57.980 have an immigration system that honors merit, that we don't have some lottery system that

00:54:02.760 benefits first and foremost the American people because the immigrants who are coming in

00:54:07.080 fill a skill set, a gap in the skill set that Americans otherwise would, and let's have

00:54:12.900 an honest conversation about that.

00:54:14.240 And then at that point, let's be sure that it's really easy to immigrate here, not necessarily

00:54:18.880 for the sake of a whole bunch of people coming in, but for the sake of someone who has the

00:54:23.360 merit, who has been approved, can get here very quickly.

00:54:25.720 I find this conversation fascinating because I'm looking at the MAGA 2.0, and this is a

00:54:33.200 talking point from MAGA, the first MAGA.

00:54:36.880 But what is very interesting is this puts you in direct conflict with Elon Musk, and for

00:54:42.860 one of a better way of putting it, the tech right.

00:54:44.800 So my question is, how is Trump going to be able to navigate that?

00:54:51.880 Because whilst Elon's clan might be smaller, they are no less influential.

00:54:56.400 Yeah, you're 100% right.

00:54:58.080 I love Elon, and my own new tech bros has been very interesting for me in a good way to get

00:55:05.240 to know these guys, and I really respect them.

00:55:07.160 But there is a political conflict there.

00:55:09.220 Our vision for what needs to happen with immigration is broadly defined or, you know, generally

00:55:14.320 speaking, different than theirs.

00:55:16.740 President Trump, I'm unsure about the details, to be honest, about how he's going to navigate

00:55:22.120 it.

00:55:22.720 But one thing I have learned about President Trump is that he's sort of the master navigator.

00:55:27.180 And I think what we would recommend is that you take this step by step.

00:55:32.840 And I think that everyone would agree that there needs to be a suspension, certainly in the

00:55:37.960 numbers of immigrants who are coming here for the purpose of taking stock.

00:55:42.240 The second thing I would recommend is that we adopt a more of a state-based immigration

00:55:47.700 model, where there are some countries, Australia and Canada, use a provincial system.

00:55:52.960 Obviously, the federal government reigns supreme, but we can create room in federal policy for

00:55:58.700 states.

00:55:59.180 I'm thinking in particular now of California, Arizona, Texas, Florida, hugely dependent upon

00:56:05.300 farm workers.

00:56:06.860 And we revitalized the old Bracero program of the 1950s and 60s, basically a guest worker

00:56:12.220 program.

00:56:12.760 There was a real racist part of that.

00:56:14.040 We don't want to revitalize, to state the obvious.

00:56:16.420 But I think that's where, at least in the near term and medium term, there's not only good

00:56:21.120 policy, but there's a political win there that keeps this coalition together.

00:56:25.200 I have a great interest, and not just politically, but also in terms of policy and keeping this

00:56:30.540 coalition of more traditional conservatives aligned with Elon and the tech bros.

00:56:34.720 They offer a lot to us, not just politically.

00:56:37.260 And then I think we get to the 2028 presidential election, and we have a family conversation

00:56:42.960 in the Republican primary.

00:56:44.460 Well, this is what I was going to ask you, because I might totally, as I say, with humility,

00:56:50.260 ignorant sense of this is that Donald Trump can't hold all of this together.

00:56:53.620 There seems to be a great understanding among everybody now that he's the leader and you have

00:56:58.420 to get behind him if you're going to get anything done.

00:57:00.120 Well, when he's not there, then this is what I keep asking a lot of people privately.

00:57:05.120 I mean, there's an obvious tension there that I see coming, and I wonder how that's going

00:57:12.400 to be resolved.

00:57:14.140 Again, I know you want me to have answers to everything.

00:57:17.500 Well, we ask questions for answers, yeah.

00:57:19.660 As a historian and not a soothsayer, I'm better about the past.

00:57:24.080 So, but to try to answer, I think what's going to happen is along the lines of what I just

00:57:31.300 mentioned regarding immigration, the force of President Trump's personality and his success

00:57:36.740 as a policy leader, you know, forget the politics, will keep the coalition together.

00:57:40.680 But I'm more convinced than most people I know that in 2028, even if, which would be perfectly

00:57:48.460 fine with me, make me very happy, if the vice president is our nominee, that doesn't mean

00:57:54.760 that there isn't going to be this policy conversation, right?

00:57:57.760 And so who the Republican nominee for president is, is a related but still separate question

00:58:03.300 from these policy issues like immigration that create some real tension.

00:58:07.280 And I would always want the tension to be minimized so that there can be political success.

00:58:13.220 But if we continue to sort of kick the can down the road on what it, what we want as conservatives

00:58:18.520 for immigration, we're just going to continue to cause some of these problems to fester.

00:58:22.780 Well, this is why I asked, because correct me if I'm wrong, but my sense of the American

00:58:27.760 consensus on immigration is everyone's against illegal immigration, generalization.

00:58:34.020 Most people are pro-legal immigration, actually.

00:58:38.000 That's true.

00:58:38.680 My experience is the position you've described is a minority position, even on the right

00:58:43.180 in this country.

00:58:43.960 Is that, would you say that's a fair assessment?

00:58:45.940 There's certainly fewer people.

00:58:47.840 I don't want to be pedantic here.

00:58:50.300 There are fewer people who do.

00:58:51.760 But what is interesting is that in the last five years, there are more conservatives now

00:58:57.020 than there used to be who would articulate what I mentioned about even legal immigration.

00:59:01.600 So, sorry, let me just finish this thought.

00:59:05.620 So, I guess, I suppose ultimately this will all come down to the economic component of this,

00:59:12.100 right?

00:59:12.240 If the economy grows and does well, I think most people probably won't go to your position

00:59:16.960 on legal immigration, even as concerned as they are about illegal immigration.

00:59:20.820 So, if President Trump can close the border and deliver a real economic growth and the American

00:59:24.860 dream, that conversation will probably fall away slightly.

00:59:28.200 I think that's right.

00:59:30.120 And certainly, conservatives, I think about Friends in Texas, for example, who are people

00:59:35.880 who hate illegal immigration, they might even agree with me up to a point about at least

00:59:41.320 having a suspension in legal immigration, especially if we can have a good guest worker program.

00:59:45.660 They would say, let's have a real national conversation.

00:59:51.280 But if we have an economy that's doing well, I think the political moment goes away and there

00:59:56.980 will be something else that's sort of garnering the attention.

01:00:00.020 But even still, I and all of us at Heritage will still be saying that there needs to be once and for

01:00:06.780 all a modern update to our immigration system that answers the hard question about how many people

01:00:13.880 legally should be coming into this country in any given year.

01:00:17.480 And for us, while the economy is an obvious consideration, it's not the primary one.

01:00:22.260 The first consideration is what is the right number of people and where they're from you

01:00:27.480 can assimilate into the society, not just for us, but for them as well.

01:00:31.100 It's actually rooted in our respect for them as well.

01:00:34.280 And on that subject, since we're exploring kind of differences within the right, I'm curious,

01:00:38.500 what are the... Donald Trump distanced himself from Project 2025 during the election, but at the

01:00:45.200 same time, quite a lot of people involved in drafting it were in his first administration

01:00:48.860 and are now in his current administration. So it's not like these are completely divergent ideas

01:00:54.220 even remotely. They're very...

01:00:55.440 Or part of the same movement.

01:00:56.620 Yes. But what are the key divergences between the Trump administration now and where you'd like

01:01:03.860 it to be? What are they not doing that you'd like them to be doing?

01:01:08.660 I'm pausing because there really is very little, if anything.

01:01:15.840 I'd talked about tariffs. I think the messaging on tariffs by the administration

01:01:20.320 has gotten more consistent in the last two weeks. That was one thing we were encouraging them to do.

01:01:25.540 If the focus is on reciprocal tariffs and on China in particular, then I think that's good.

01:01:31.300 I've not... I've thought that the rhetoric about Canada is at the very least politically unhelpful,

01:01:38.380 especially for those of us who would like to see Pierre Polyev be the prime minister.

01:01:42.580 So, you know, but even then, I'm sort of trying to answer your question by grasping for some

01:01:47.260 difference. We have such great agreement with what the president and vice president are doing,

01:01:52.640 and we're very fond of our independence and heritage, so we would state otherwise as friends.

01:01:56.920 But on national security and foreign policy, you may know, although some of your audience would have

01:02:02.360 no reason to know, that heritage has led the way on the reset of that in Washington for conservative

01:02:08.420 foreign policy, which is to say that we need to be prioritizers or restrainers, that we can better

01:02:14.460 achieve Reagan's mantra, peace through strength, if, in fact, we attend to domestic issues first and

01:02:19.540 then be very selective about where we get involved abroad. President Trump and Vice President Vance,

01:02:24.400 I think, are implementing that beautifully. We look forward to seeing the good consequences,

01:02:30.560 say, regarding the deindustrialization of communities, but that's a long-term project.

01:02:36.380 No disagreement there.

01:02:38.840 If you're part of the trigonometry audience, chances are you're not just interested in politics,

01:02:44.460 you're properly dialed in. You ask questions, you challenge assumptions, and you don't settle for

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01:02:58.880 with real depth, and right now they're unpacking the first hundred days of Trump's presidency.

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01:03:11.180 immigration, trade, executive power, and boil it down in under 15 minutes. It's focused,

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01:03:37.620 And Kevin, I want to go back to immigration, but I want to go back to illegal immigration. Now,

01:03:41.840 we can all agree that there's illegal immigration, the number should be zero.

01:03:44.920 The open borders are ridiculous, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, I've been following a story

01:03:50.940 about Tren de Aragua, which is the Venezuelan gang, being deported, fine. But then what you see is there

01:03:59.740 have been cases, and people have spoken about it. Now, I don't know the veracity of these cases,

01:04:06.240 of people being deported wrongly. And then when you find out where a lot of these gang members,

01:04:13.540 or alleged gang members, end up, they end up in a maximum security unit in El Salvador, which is an

01:04:20.000 authoritarian country, to be honest. A part of me starts getting really worried, and I'll posit to

01:04:26.540 you that as a Christian, that must worry you as well. It doesn't. What should worry me?

01:04:32.120 Are you worried that people are getting wrongly deported from this country and held in maximum

01:04:35.900 security? No, I haven't seen any evidence that any of that crew was wrongly deported. The only thing

01:04:42.720 that I've seen is that maybe five or six of them weren't as far along in the legal proceedings,

01:04:47.980 but they were rounded up with other members of Tren de Aragua, because they are members of that

01:04:52.840 gang. I think the story France is referring to, and again, I come back to this point, the mainstream

01:04:57.040 media destroy their credibility so much, I don't know what to do. And I'm trying to answer your question.

01:05:00.760 There was a real dissonance. So there's a story in Time Magazine about a gay barber who got swept up in

01:05:07.900 all of this. It comes back to our conversation when you're cutting out the cancer, you might

01:05:11.140 grab too much healthy tissue. I'm unaware of the story because I don't read Time.

01:05:14.740 Yeah. Okay.

01:05:15.400 Right. Okay. I mean, that's fair enough. I guess, so let's broaden the question out more. I mean,

01:05:21.140 how do you ensure that the people that you get to leave this country forcibly, which there should be,

01:05:28.740 if you come to this country illegally, you should be allowed to, you should be, you should be deported.

01:05:33.080 If you cause, if you commit crimes as a foreign national, you should be deported. I'm in agreement

01:05:37.420 with all of this. But how do we make sure, again, going back to the term, we don't throw the baby

01:05:41.840 out with the bathwater and we don't get rid of people in this country who are actually positive,

01:05:47.020 a force for good, and will become good citizens.

01:05:48.960 Without due process.

01:05:50.060 Without due process.

01:05:51.820 The wonderful border czar of the Trump administration, Tom Homan, who's a good friend

01:05:58.720 personally, and also a former Heritage colleague, has a number, 300,000 felons, criminals.

01:06:08.680 And what makes his job difficult about making sure we're only deporting those criminals, at least for

01:06:15.560 now, is because there are too many law enforcement officials in this country who violate their oath,

01:06:21.920 who hide those people from him. And so the reason I think the time example is,

01:06:27.160 is unhelpful, frankly, is because even if that were true, and I'm just denying that it is,

01:06:33.300 that's one case. And we've got 299,600

01:06:39.080 bastards who need to be sent back to El Salvador. They need to be in maximum security prison,

01:06:46.540 and that's glorious. So in other words, the answer to your question is we need law enforcement

01:06:51.000 officials, sheriffs, some of whom, frankly, are so left of center, they actually harm public safety

01:06:57.480 in their communities to do their damn jobs. And then it's easy to ensure we're not throwing the

01:07:01.660 baby out with the bathwater. This is infuriating to me, not your questions, very fair questions,

01:07:06.520 but the situation that we even have to have this conversation in the civilized world.

01:07:11.740 And if you're Tom Homan, your frustration is incalculable, because this is such common sense.

01:07:18.180 But again, it's the institutional left that's standing in the way of people actually doing

01:07:22.780 their jobs and restoring public safety for the average American.

01:07:26.300 Well, look, we have the same issue in the UK. And so your anger or your passion,

01:07:30.720 your anger about this issue is something that we all share. But I can only speak for our country.

01:07:37.600 I'm not a citizen of the United States, but I would want our government to not deport people

01:07:43.620 without due process. And if there are news reports, I understand your question, the veracity that

01:07:51.320 suggest otherwise, I would want that to be looked into to make sure that a random person doesn't

01:07:57.500 accidentally end up in another country in a maximum security prison. Do you share that concern?

01:08:01.460 I can agree with that as a hypothetical. Yes. But I don't want what I still would argue is

01:08:09.000 an incorrect story to get in the way. But why are you saying it's incorrect if you haven't read it?

01:08:14.140 I work with the smartest immigration people outside of the Trump administration,

01:08:18.040 and they've not brought that to my attention. And they would have if it were. But do we believe

01:08:22.320 in due process and heritage? Sure. I'm not denying that. I'm denying the wisdom of fixating on a

01:08:28.380 question of fixating on a questionable story when we got 300,000 people who are criminals who need

01:08:34.240 to go back. Well, I think that what we are doing here is focusing on both at the same time.

01:08:38.380 I think that's a fair. I think that's a fair characterization of our questions.

01:08:41.980 No, no, I think we laid out our concerns about illegal immigration into our country and into you.

01:08:47.500 I think it's a travesty that people are as a legal immigrant to the UK. I think it's a travesty that

01:08:52.800 people are violating the laws coming in. Many of them are committing crimes. We've had reports in the

01:08:58.000 UK that demonstrate very clearly that contrary to what all the left wing media have claimed for

01:09:03.700 decades now, these people are much more likely to commit crime, especially sexual crime. We have

01:09:08.580 all the data on that. So we share all of those concerns. But I think we also want people to be

01:09:15.280 treated fairly, particularly if they're not criminals. That's kind of what we do. I know that

01:09:19.500 the three of us agree. Yeah. And I'm a little sorry to be argumentative, although I think it was

01:09:24.320 really important for this reason. Yeah. This is your show. You'll ask your questions. I'm telling

01:09:29.740 you that the far bigger story is that we have sheriffs of some of the largest cities and counties

01:09:36.340 in this country who are preventing the Trump administration from even finding some of these

01:09:43.680 300,000 criminals. That's great. And it shouldn't be happening. Yeah. And that just needs to be part of

01:09:47.500 this conversation. Well, it is. It is now. Thank you. But I guess what I'm just getting to is,

01:09:51.860 if it turns out that this guy was deported without due process, you'd want that to be looked at and

01:09:57.540 reversed immediately. We believe in due process. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Because

01:10:02.620 I guess what we're trying to get here is there needs to be solutions to problems. And look,

01:10:09.780 there's always going to be a little bit of collateral damage either way. But with a society like the United

01:10:15.720 States or like ours, we need to make the process as fair as possible. So moving forward,

01:10:23.400 what do you think is going to be the greatest challenge now for heritage and for America?

01:10:29.980 Communication. I think that all of these, almost all of these policy decisions that President Trump is

01:10:38.400 leading and that we support because we've been researching them, analyzing them for so long,

01:10:43.620 are currently popular. Some are a little more controversial than others, but they're currently

01:10:47.920 popular. But what I've learned about politics and policy is that conservatives, starting with me,

01:10:54.780 often forget we have to keep closing the sale, so to speak. And so communication toward not just the

01:11:02.000 conservative base, but to the American people more broadly about why we're doing this, how we're doing

01:11:07.700 it, sort of goes back to the conversation thread we had about due process and immigration.

01:11:11.340 That is always very difficult when you're in government. And I think it's especially difficult

01:11:16.580 for conservative reformers because they fix something or they initiate the fixing of something

01:11:22.400 and they move on to the next thing. President Trump's really good about the communication,

01:11:25.940 but I think that's a challenge, not just for him, but for those of us on the outside,

01:11:29.700 because what we're trying to do, the ultimate project is correct 75 years of government overreach.

01:11:36.280 And to say that it's an opportunity-rich environment is an understatement.

01:11:40.960 Everything needs to be improved. And in that, sometimes maybe the electorate can see political

01:11:47.660 chaos rather than see the real, what I think has been precision in almost all of these cases

01:11:52.420 of implementing a plan. Absolutely, because the implementation of tariffs is going to mean that

01:11:57.580 the economy is going to become more unstable. It may. I mean, to be honest, while three years ago,

01:12:04.140 I would have agreed with that emphatically. It may or it may not, depending on how they're

01:12:08.440 implementing. And we're also testing some assumptions that may no longer be the case

01:12:14.440 in the 2020s. I don't think it's necessarily the case that there's even going to be more than a few

01:12:20.460 more weeks of the stock market being up and down. We actually could see real economic growth in the

01:12:25.500 United States this year. It's interesting. The point you make, Kevin, sorry to jump in, Francis,

01:12:29.980 so true, because a lot of people ask me, like, what do you think is going to happen? I'm like,

01:12:33.200 I think we're in the world of I don't know. I think we're in the world of let's see at this

01:12:38.400 point. Both good and bad, right? Right. Well, we will find out. I suppose the core of this,

01:12:43.380 what you're saying is the short-term disruption of major change can be very off-putting to people

01:12:50.160 who watch the news, basically, right? Oh, absolutely. And on that point, I mean,

01:12:55.100 the news is so absurd. And that's really 100% of my pushing back in a couple of these threads. It's

01:13:01.280 not about your questions, which are fair, but that we have to be careful not to base our assessment of

01:13:07.700 what's going to happen on what very politically oriented media outlets are saying.

01:13:15.100 And one of the great challenges that Trump faces is he's inherited a world from Obama which has become

01:13:23.000 ever more unstable. We look at horrific events like October 7th, the Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

01:13:31.320 Where's Heritage's position on this? Is it strictly America first, we withdraw, or do you see America

01:13:38.040 as being more proactive on the world stage? In the middle. So we use, and hopefully this is a helpful

01:13:43.120 metaphor, we say that at Heritage, we're neither hawks nor doves. We are owls, which is to say,

01:13:51.320 wise enough to know you pay attention to your own nest, you know, in this case, domestic politics,

01:13:56.740 but you're always scanning very actively where in the interest of the United States, first and

01:14:02.940 foremost, but then secondarily allies and friends, you may have to be involved. What we have drawn a

01:14:09.360 bright red line in the sand on is any of the neoconservative interventionism that we saw 15,

01:14:15.900 20, 25 years ago. And for a couple of years in Washington, we took some slings and arrows about

01:14:21.280 that. And now it is just so gratifying, vindicating, dare I say, to see the entire, almost the entire

01:14:28.160 political right be there with us because Trump and Vance are so good on this. But ultimately,

01:14:32.320 that means the United States, when it decides to engage, whether through economic sanctions or God

01:14:40.300 forbid, the declaration of war by our Congress, that it is really legitimate. The strategy is

01:14:46.660 really clear. The United States, I think, is going to continue to be involved in Europe. I know that's

01:14:51.580 a concern of European friends, but the best advice that I can give to our European friends from a

01:14:56.840 friend is pull your weight. Pull your weight, not just with what you're doing with your percentage of

01:15:03.340 GDP spent on defense. But pull your weight in understanding that the United States has a much

01:15:09.460 bigger adversary in the Far East than it's ever had in the case of the Chinese Communist Party.

01:15:14.520 And more of our attention has to go to mitigating that, not just in that region, but in Africa and

01:15:20.620 Latin America. Ultimately, the bottom line, I think there's still a lot more agreement on foreign policy

01:15:27.100 on the center right than there seems to be. But if the project is going to be that the United States

01:15:32.440 has to be involved everywhere with all kinds of money, spending $260 million on Ukraine, for example,

01:15:38.660 heritage will be opposed. And why would you be opposed to that? Because let me present the

01:15:43.200 counter argument, which is if you let Putin continue to take land, he's effectively going to

01:15:49.820 destabilize large portions of that part of Europe. There are countries, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia,

01:15:56.260 amongst others who are getting very, very concerned about Putin's advances. Surely, isn't it the

01:16:03.780 American responsibility, coupled with Europe, to say to Putin, who is a bully, enough is enough?

01:16:10.540 Yeah, Putin's an evil bully. And what he has done in Ukraine is absurd and tragic. And yet,

01:16:16.360 the answer to that question is twofold. Number one, the war was never winnable for the Ukrainians.

01:16:21.940 We've said that. I limit that, by the way. We've said that for three years at Heritage. We specialize

01:16:27.700 in the truth. And what we've been told by heads of state in Europe, by our own former president,

01:16:33.180 was that it was winnable. America sends money. We're going to be able to fix this. We'd argued

01:16:37.940 at Heritage, you need to be sending billions of dollars of weapons before he invades as a deterrent,

01:16:43.080 because then you would be extending the Trump peace dividend from his first term.

01:16:47.320 And it's therefore no coincidence that you needed Donald Trump back in office for Putin to,

01:16:51.220 at least be willing to have a conversation about peace. But the second reason is,

01:16:55.260 if the Europeans were so convinced of this, why did the Germans and other Europeans continue to

01:17:02.080 buy natural gas from Russia when they were telling the American people that we should send more of

01:17:06.880 our treasure there and even be open to our American men and women going there? The hypocrisy has got to

01:17:12.380 be settled before you ask the United States to go fix that. History has told us never trust the

01:17:16.720 Germans. Fair.

01:17:19.940 Final note of agreement.

01:17:21.980 I agree with you guys. I enjoy the banter.

01:17:25.080 Well, thanks so much for coming on. We're going to go to Substack where our audience get to ask you

01:17:29.180 their questions. But before we do, the last question we always finish on is what's the one

01:17:33.300 thing we're not talking about that we should be?

01:17:35.640 Sports.

01:17:36.000 Sports. You guys talk about sports all the time. You can't go anywhere in this country without 10

01:17:41.100 screens showing you every sport.

01:17:42.220 It hadn't come up in our conversation.

01:17:43.620 That's true.

01:17:44.260 That's true.

01:17:45.280 And why? Because we talked about really important topics and issues and y'all are the best. So

01:17:51.340 thanks for tolerating my banter with you. But I think one of the secrets here is in the United

01:17:56.700 States and everywhere is to remember those things that make us smile. And whether it's sports,

01:18:01.300 whether it's family or friends, having a pint, doing more of that, and maybe spending 10% less

01:18:07.440 time, even for us at Heritage, following the news. In other words, being human is something that we're

01:18:12.360 trying to do in our work as well.

01:18:14.120 All right. Head on over to Substack where we ask Kevin your questions.

01:18:17.260 Don't watch 10% less of Trigonometry.

01:18:21.180 I've noticed that cultures with a shared faith often stick together more. So what shared philosophy

01:18:26.440 or outlook can the five eyes countries use that doesn't rely on belief in something supernatural?

01:18:31.300 We'll see you next time.

01:18:32.300 We'll see you next time.

TRIGGERnometry - April 23, 2025

Meet the Man Behind Project 2025 - Kevin Roberts

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